1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 17 Oct 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 573       Contents:2 Re: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines2 RE: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines2 Re: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines2 Re: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines Anyone have HSD05 docs?  Re: Anyone have HSD05 docs? P Re: Back to the start. What do I need to be able to access an Ingres II dbase fr* Re: Booting a VMS cluster node using BOOTP Re: CTRL-Y and VMS BACKUP  Re: CTRL-Y and VMS BACKUP  Re: CTRL-Y and VMS BACKUP $ Debugging AST and Event Flag lockups( RE: Debugging AST and Event Flag lockups( Re: Debugging AST and Event Flag lockups( Re: Debugging AST and Event Flag lockups DIR shows "no such file" RE: DIR shows "no such file" Re: DIR shows "no such file" Re: DIR shows "no such file" Re: DIR shows "no such file" Re: DIR shows "no such file" Re: DIR shows "no such file" Re: DIR shows "no such file" Re: DIR shows "no such file" RE: DIR shows "no such file" Re: DIR shows "no such file" Re: DIR shows "no such file" RE: DIR shows "no such file" Re: DIR shows "no such file" DS10L 512MB 60GB USD699  DS25 Boot from VMS 7.3 CD? Hammer SPECint/SPECfp  Re: Hobbyist kit Contents  HP-ETS 2002 Evaluations % HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line ) RE: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line ) Re: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line  Re: Life after VMS?  Re: Life after VMS?  Re: Life after VMS?  Re: Life after VMS?  RE: Life after VMS?  Re: Life after VMS?  Re: Life after VMS?  Re: Life after VMS?  Re: Life after VMS?  Re: Life after VMS?  Re: Life after VMS?  Re: Life after VMS?  MAIL management utility % Re: Mozilla doesn't like comp.os.vms? % Re: Mozilla doesn't like comp.os.vms?  Re: Old DECC for VAX4 Open-source replacement for Digital Standard Runoff?8 Re: Open-source replacement for Digital Standard Runoff?8 Re: Open-source replacement for Digital Standard Runoff?8 Re: Open-source replacement for Digital Standard Runoff?8 Re: Open-source replacement for Digital Standard Runoff?8 Re: Open-source replacement for Digital Standard Runoff?N Re: OpenVMS7.2-1 and 7.3-1 and NFS (seeking SOME sort of file shareing) HELP!!+ Re: Originator of detached process from DCL + Re: Originator of detached process from DCL + Re: Originator of detached process from DCL + Re: Originator of detached process from DCL $ Re: OT: someone knows TrafficMagnet? Re: PeopleSoft on VMS  Re: PeopleSoft on VMS  Re: PeopleSoft on VMS  Re: PeopleSoft on VMS ' Re: Question about f$getsyi and Itanium ' Re: Question about f$getsyi and Itanium ' Re: Question about f$getsyi and Itanium  Re: singular and plural of VAX& Re: stuck process after v7.3-1 upgrade Re: Tape Copy?0 Re: TCPIP, sharing sockets via $QIO (fixed yet?) Re: The Good CEO. Re: Unix file descriptors and VMS I/O channels. Re: Unix file descriptors and VMS I/O channels Re: VMS 5.3 disk installation 4 RE: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel4 Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel4 Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel4 Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel4 Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel4 Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel4 RE: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel4 RE: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel7 Re: VMS MAIL: COMPRESS _increases_ the size of the file ; Re: VMS versions (was: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!) ; Re: VMS versions (was: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!) ; Re: VMS versions (was: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!) ; Re: VMS versions (was: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!) ; Re: VMS versions (was: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!) ; Re: VMS versions (was: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!) # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:53:29 -0400 & From: Jilly <jilly@clarityconnect.com>; Subject: Re: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines 1 Message-ID: <3DADA799.6090202@clarityconnect.com>   H Not at all.  I take calls all the time from customers that just want to G request this or that feature be added to VMS and we have a fairly easy  H way to log it.  So call us anytime you have a request for a new feature  and the CSC will gladly log it.    Shane Smith wrote:$ > Ohhh, dangerous precedent, Guy.... >  > Shane  >  > -----Original Message-----+ > From: Guy Peleg [mailto:guy.peleg@hp.com] + > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:55 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com = > Subject: Re: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines  >  > / > Okay, just to prove that we are listening....  > F > Please file a service call with your local support center and ask to > portI > RECALL/ALL and RECALL/SEARCH to VAX. The support center should escelate 	 > this to  > Engineering and ask ' > the case to be assigned to Guy Peleg.  >  > Guy  >  > Brian Tillman wrote: >  > 8 >>>Yes we do listen to what you guys mumble around here. >>M >>Except when it involved pleas to make sure you add similar functionality to M >>OpenVMS VAX, _even when it's possible_ (i.e., not 64-bit-dependent).  Those 3 >>requests seems to be glossed over as unimportant.  >>--C >>Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com C >>Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com ? >>3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent > >>Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@": >>       This opinion doesn't represent that of my company >  >      --  C Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NY I        - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      - Brett Bodine fan I        - Mark.Jilson@hp.com                            - since 1975 or so I        - http://www.jilly.baka.com           - http://www.brettbodine.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:05:52 -0700 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>; Subject: RE: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines 0 Message-ID: <01C27504.1D8660A0@sulfer.icius.com>  ? It wasn't the request, it was Guy volunteering to take personal  ownership of one up front...   -----Original Message------ From: Jilly [mailto:jilly@clarityconnect.com] * Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:53 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ; Subject: Re: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines     H Not at all.  I take calls all the time from customers that just want to G request this or that feature be added to VMS and we have a fairly easy  H way to log it.  So call us anytime you have a request for a new feature  and the CSC will gladly log it.    Shane Smith wrote:$ > Ohhh, dangerous precedent, Guy.... >  > Shane  >  > -----Original Message-----+ > From: Guy Peleg [mailto:guy.peleg@hp.com] + > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:55 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com = > Subject: Re: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines  >  > / > Okay, just to prove that we are listening....  > F > Please file a service call with your local support center and ask to > portI > RECALL/ALL and RECALL/SEARCH to VAX. The support center should escelate 	 > this to  > Engineering and ask ' > the case to be assigned to Guy Peleg.  >  > Guy  >  > Brian Tillman wrote: >  > 8 >>>Yes we do listen to what you guys mumble around here. >>M >>Except when it involved pleas to make sure you add similar functionality to M >>OpenVMS VAX, _even when it's possible_ (i.e., not 64-bit-dependent).  Those 3 >>requests seems to be glossed over as unimportant.  >>--C >>Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com C >>Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com ? >>3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent > >>Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@": >>       This opinion doesn't represent that of my company >  >      --  C Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NY E        - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      - Brett Bodine  fan F        - Mark.Jilson@hp.com                            - since 1975 or so.        - http://www.jilly.baka.com           - http://www.brettbodine.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:42:52 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>; Subject: Re: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines , Message-ID: <3DAE078C.7080908@tsoft-inc.com>   I'm working on my list.  :-)   Dave   Shane Smith wrote:  $ > Ohhh, dangerous precedent, Guy.... >  > Shane  >  > -----Original Message-----+ > From: Guy Peleg [mailto:guy.peleg@hp.com] + > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:55 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com = > Subject: Re: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines  >  > / > Okay, just to prove that we are listening....  > F > Please file a service call with your local support center and ask to > portI > RECALL/ALL and RECALL/SEARCH to VAX. The support center should escelate 	 > this to  > Engineering and ask ' > the case to be assigned to Guy Peleg.  >  > Guy  >  > Brian Tillman wrote: >  > 8 >>>Yes we do listen to what you guys mumble around here. >>> M >>Except when it involved pleas to make sure you add similar functionality to M >>OpenVMS VAX, _even when it's possible_ (i.e., not 64-bit-dependent).  Those 3 >>requests seems to be glossed over as unimportant.  >>--C >>Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com C >>Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com ? >>3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent > >>Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@": >>       This opinion doesn't represent that of my company >> >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 05:24:12 GMT " From: Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com>; Subject: Re: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines & Message-ID: <3DAE4977.1D9090B4@hp.com>  B Any DCL related case will end on my table , no point hiding it :-)   Guy    Shane Smith wrote:  A > It wasn't the request, it was Guy volunteering to take personal  > ownership of one up front... >  > -----Original Message-----/ > From: Jilly [mailto:jilly@clarityconnect.com] , > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:53 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com = > Subject: Re: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines  > I > Not at all.  I take calls all the time from customers that just want to H > request this or that feature be added to VMS and we have a fairly easyI > way to log it.  So call us anytime you have a request for a new feature ! > and the CSC will gladly log it.  >  > Shane Smith wrote:& > > Ohhh, dangerous precedent, Guy.... > > 	 > > Shane  > >  > > -----Original Message------ > > From: Guy Peleg [mailto:guy.peleg@hp.com] - > > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:55 AM  > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ? > > Subject: Re: $ RECALL/SEARCH and editing long command lines  > >  > > 1 > > Okay, just to prove that we are listening....  > > H > > Please file a service call with your local support center and ask to > > portK > > RECALL/ALL and RECALL/SEARCH to VAX. The support center should escelate  > > this to  > > Engineering and ask ) > > the case to be assigned to Guy Peleg.  > >  > > Guy  > >  > > Brian Tillman wrote: > >  > > : > >>>Yes we do listen to what you guys mumble around here. > >>O > >>Except when it involved pleas to make sure you add similar functionality to O > >>OpenVMS VAX, _even when it's possible_ (i.e., not 64-bit-dependent).  Those 5 > >>requests seems to be glossed over as unimportant.  > >>--E > >>Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com E > >>Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com A > >>3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent @ > >>Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"< > >>       This opinion doesn't represent that of my company > >  > >  >  > --E > Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NY G >        - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      - Brett Bodine  > fan H >        - Mark.Jilson@hp.com                            - since 1975 or > so0 >        - http://www.jilly.baka.com           - > http://www.brettbodine.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:21:58 -0000  From: system@vms.user.org   Subject: Anyone have HSD05 docs?/ Message-ID: <uqrbi6nuulvd7c@corp.supernews.com>  Keywords: HSD05   2 Does anyone have HSD05 documentation or better yet3 can point me to it on the web so that I can change  2 it's DSSI id? I see some dip switches but I don't 0 know if this is where it is changed or what each position means.    Thanks.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:43:53 GMT " From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca>$ Subject: Re: Anyone have HSD05 docs?8 Message-ID: <Xns92A981829BD3falkarcabca@205.233.108.180>   [posted and mailed]   D system@vms.user.org wrote in news:uqrbi6nuulvd7c@corp.supernews.com:  4 > Does anyone have HSD05 documentation or better yet5 > can point me to it on the web so that I can change  4 > it's DSSI id? I see some dip switches but I don't 2 > know if this is where it is changed or what each > position means.   . Switches seen from the back are what you want.     	    	    	    	Default & 1    	MSB of DSSI id    	open   DSSI=0 2    	    	    	    	open  3    	LSB of DSSI id    	open & 4    	MSB of SCSI id    	closed SCSI=7 5    	    	    	    	closed  6    	LSB of SCSI id    	closed 
 7-9    	spare : 10    	Active SCSI term    	closed (terminators installed)   --  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca  @ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Road 1                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canada  http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4   http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 20:16:41 -0700. From: kidehen@openlinksw.com (Kingsley Idehen)Y Subject: Re: Back to the start. What do I need to be able to access an Ingres II dbase fr = Message-ID: <caa49ee9.0210161916.1a00c56f@posting.google.com>   u andrew.g.scott@ntlworld.com (Andrew Scott) wrote in message news:<ac8de108.0210030812.4a2b4e3d@posting.google.com>... H > I've posted a couple of specific questions related to this subject but? > I'm returning to first principles to try and sort out what is  > required.  > E > Basically I want to find out what I need installed on our Alpha VMS B > (7.3) server in order to run a Java program against an Ingres IIB > dbase. Because it's VMS, the Ingres II dbase is off the standardG > development route i.e. it's somewhere between V2.5 and 2.6 I believe. G > So, I don't have access to the JDBC driver which I believe comes with  > 2.6. > G > I _thought_ I'd need to have ODBC drivers installed on the server. (I D > was told by someone here that they were but something's broken and! > no-one is able to assist. :-( )  > B > So I'm throwing myself at your mercy. What do I need to tell ourA > support people to install and what do they/I need to configure?  >  > Thanks > Andrew Scott   Andrew,   C OpenLink Software provides high-performance ODBC & JDBC Drivers for E Ingres that are available for download from http://www.openlinksw.com    Regards, Kingsley Idehen  OpenLink Software    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:37:08 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 3 Subject: Re: Booting a VMS cluster node using BOOTP ' Message-ID: <3DAE2254.4ED1FFE5@fsi.net>    Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > F > I would look for PXE booting in the future.  PXE is sort of BOOTP on5 > steroids being used by Itanium for network booting.   = Could I convince you to share the translation of the acronym?    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 15:55:01 -0700, From: JimStrehlow@data911.com (Jim Strehlow)" Subject: Re: CTRL-Y and VMS BACKUP= Message-ID: <4b6ec350.0210161455.2a443b22@posting.google.com>   | Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KNP7VV2IIC9QWKOO@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...J > I recently unpacked an RDB .RBF file (created by RMU/BACKUP) from a VMS I > BACKUP saveset.  Sizes are 2545200 and 11921805 blocks, respectively.   J > Since the file I wanted was near the beginning of the saveset, after it I > is "completely unpacked" (see below), VMS BACKUP continues to read the  J > saveset, presumably to see if there is another file by that name in the E > saveset.  From another session, I waited until DIR showed the same  I > number of USED and ALLOCATED blocks then killed the VMS BACKUP command  E > with CTRL-Y then typed EXIT.  The idea was to save resources---why  K > should BACKUP continue to read the saveset (all 12 million blocks of it)  K > when I already have the file I need?  However, the .RBF file appeared to  G > be corrupt; RMU/RESTORE said it was not a valid backup file.  Trying  K > again and letting the BACKUP command complete produced a valid RBF file;  7 > killing it with CTRL-Y again produced a corrupt file.  > F > Since "you cannot use wildcard characters denoting latest version ofJ > files (;)" with BACK/SELECT, I don't see any way to tell BACKUP to stop   > after it finds the first file. > ... B I have had similar problems with Sybase and Oracle database exportB files where someone kept two versions of large "dump" files. It isE worse when there are two copies of multiple dump files (10 files each E 1/2 million blocks large). I either had to frequently purge files or, E with big exports and little free disk space (e.g. Sybase version 4 on D a MicroVAX with slow tape drive and small disks), in another processD move the file to another disk to free up space etc. as the next file% is processed in the original process.   F Even when you press <Ctrl><Y> the backup may still read the tape driveE until the end of the selected directory (which has lasted one hour or  longer on a legacy system.)   A Luckily my situation has often been for a controlled migration or E conversion where I can create a special backup procedure for the user F to run that either purges beforehand or exports to a special directory etc.5 Yes, that feature in BACKUP is inconvenient at times.   ' Jim Strehlow, Data911, Alameda, CA, USA    ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 16:23:46 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)" Subject: Re: CTRL-Y and VMS BACKUP= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0210161523.6cb83480@posting.google.com>   i whohe@whoever.com (DL Phillips) wrote in message news:<af0dc2ea.0210160913.64b2d8e@posting.google.com>...  [...] M > > Perhaps difficult since on tape one can have more than one file with the  & > > same name AND version number.  :-| > L > I'd like to see: if  /select=file.whatever or any such where the directoryK > is not specific, then the save_set would indeed be searched to the end as  > it is now. > B > but: if /select=[specific.directory]file.whatever where the specB > is unambiguous (allowing for versioning) then the end of search G > is obvious and backup should end once the specified files are copied. E > We shouldn't have more than one [specific.directory] in a save_set, 7 > and if we do we aren't doing something right, are we?  > 5 > I don't see that the logic would be that difficult.      B Well, you'd also have to check if the input parameter was a list.    Suppose you did a command like    1 $ BACKUP DISK1:[BLAH],DISK2:[BLAH],DISK3:[BLAH] -    MKA0:SAVE-SET-NAME.BCK !.   F Then you'd have to search the whole save set because the original diskC information is not available as BACKUP checks each file-spec in the C save set and you could then easily have multiple occurrences of the C same directory and file combination. So you'd at least also have to  check for that.   # Now, suppose you did a command like   1     $ BACKUP SEARCH_LIST: MKA0:SAVE-SET-NAME.BCK    D where SEARCH_LIST is a logical name search list. Then there's no way; during the restore to know whether SEARCH_LIST had multiple A equivalence names or not during the save operation; hence, BACKUP C would not have enough information to tell whether to read the whole 1 save set or not. So in general, it can't be done.   B Well, I suppose you could fully pre-analyze it during the save and" record the result in the save set.    --- *** ---  C Perhaps it would work for selective restores from /IMAGE backups. I E can't think of a reason right now why it shouldn't, so maybe it could D be done for those. But I suspect that the BACKUP developers expectedD that any restore using /SELECT would be done interactively with /LOGE in which case the user could do his own premature abort and that such = a feature was not worth the cost and effort and that it would E introduce a new potential source of bugs and that it didn't rank high C enough on the list of many things they'd like to do but didn't have D the time or money for. I think it's probably mostly the last reason.A They concentrated on data integrity. Plus they had to work on bug  fixes first.  C There are other time-wasters. Why does DIRECTORY/DATE/TOTAL take so C much longer than DIRECTORY/TOTAL? The DIRECTORY command is probably ? looking up the dates in the file headers. But it's not going to F display them anyway! Why is this bad? Because many people have symbolsF like DIR:==DIRECTORY/SIZE=ALL/DATE/PROT and interactively they may runE something like DIR/TOTAL which will then take much longer to run than  DIRECTORY/TOTAL.  F Also, why does DIRECTORY /VERSION=1 take longer than DIRECTORY ;? ThisC is bad because /VERSION=n where n is a small number also takes "too D long". It runs as if its checking every version of every file in the
 directory.  F And why does PURGE/CONFIRM followed by QUIT take so long to exit? WhatA is it doing? It takes much longer than DELETE/CONFIRM followed by  QUIT.   $ (Problems above tested on VMS v6.1.)   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:36:58 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> " Subject: Re: CTRL-Y and VMS BACKUP, Message-ID: <3DAE0613.E86A1C9B@videotron.ca>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:D  There are other time-wasters. Why does DIRECTORY/DATE/TOTAL take so# > much longer than DIRECTORY/TOTAL?   C > Also, why does DIRECTORY /VERSION=1 take longer than DIRECTORY ;?   D > And why does PURGE/CONFIRM followed by QUIT take so long to exit?   H Well, here we have proof that VMS is no good and should be replaced with Windows... :-)  J Is there something inherently inefficient compared to other OS file systemM with VMS storing file information in 3 places (Indexf.SYS, the directory file  and the file itself ?)  K Do other OS file systems have fewer sources of information for a file which O makes the file system faster ? Or do most of them have a similar architecture ?    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:59:00 GMT ' From: nickerson@pundit.ds.boeing.com () - Subject: Debugging AST and Event Flag lockups ( Message-ID: <H43H2C.C5y@news.boeing.com>   hi,   A I have some code that uses ASTs, EventFlags, Waitfr; the mainline @ code seems to sit waiting for a set event flag that never seems ? to occur; meanwhile believe that I have set the flag in an AST; @ I am looking for hints and information on how to best debug the . problem; the code has the following attributes    0 *) DEC C 6.5, OpenVMS Alpha 7.3, multiprocessor;  @ *) the ASTs do some processing on read buffers and then requeue ? another QIO read, the read QIOs use IOSBs but only the 0 event   flag;   ? *) the mainline code waits for the event flag and that flag is  6 set in code called by the AST doing buffer processing;  ; *) the AST also calls C RTL I/O; in the main() we have set   decc$set_reentrancy(C$C_AST) ;     I have the following questions;   > *) how do you examine event flags; I know you can from another2 terminal do a $ show process/id=xxxxxxx/continuous+ is there a way to do this in VMSdebugger?;    C *) what about doing a "deposit" to set an event flag with debugger;   B *) in "Programming Concepts Manual" section 5.3 Common Mistakes inB Asynch Prgmmg (pg 5-5) it states "failure to specify both an eventB flag and an IOSB"; ??? if my AST is fired and checks the IOSB whatC is the problem with just specifying EF0 in QIO and not checking it;   > *) likewise in the following bullet of section 5.3 mentioning B "failure to use SYS$SYNCH or to check both for an EF that has been> set and for a nonzero IOSB... operation is not yet complete";  ??? how does this occur;  B *) I've heard of spurious wakeups, but it isn't easily possible to miss an event flag set is it?;     thanks for any suggestions;  --bn (Bart Nickerson)  nickerson@pundit.ds.boeing.com (206) 662-0183   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:54:03 -0700 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>1 Subject: RE: Debugging AST and Event Flag lockups 0 Message-ID: <01C2752C.4DB71490@sulfer.icius.com>   >  >hi,   > B >I have some code that uses ASTs, EventFlags, Waitfr; the mainlineA >code seems to sit waiting for a set event flag that never seems  @ >to occur; meanwhile believe that I have set the flag in an AST;A >I am looking for hints and information on how to best debug the  / >problem; the code has the following attributes  >  > 1 >*) DEC C 6.5, OpenVMS Alpha 7.3, multiprocessor;  > A >*) the ASTs do some processing on read buffers and then requeue  @ >another QIO read, the read QIOs use IOSBs but only the 0 event  >flag; > @ >*) the mainline code waits for the event flag and that flag is 7 >set in code called by the AST doing buffer processing;  > < >*) the AST also calls C RTL I/O; in the main() we have set  >decc$set_reentrancy(C$C_AST) ;   G Are you sure the AST is firing? Are you outputting a debug message from D it or something? (I'm assuming this is a completion AST on the QIO.)    >I have the following questions; > ? >*) how do you examine event flags; I know you can from another 3 >terminal do a $ show process/id=xxxxxxx/continuous , >is there a way to do this in VMSdebugger?;  > D >*) what about doing a "deposit" to set an event flag with debugger;  - Can't help with the debugger old bean, sorry.   C >*) in "Programming Concepts Manual" section 5.3 Common Mistakes in C >Asynch Prgmmg (pg 5-5) it states "failure to specify both an event C >flag and an IOSB"; ??? if my AST is fired and checks the IOSB what D >is the problem with just specifying EF0 in QIO and not checking it;  E You have to assign a separate IOSB for each QIO operation that may be F "in flight" at the same time. The common mistake is using the same oneH in two IOs that can overlap, so they trip over each other. Incidentally,H using EF0 is no longer the recommended approach. There's a special valueG (constant) for "don't use an EF". I don't have it to hand just now, but 5 it should be in an up to date system services manual.   ? >*) likewise in the following bullet of section 5.3 mentioning  C >"failure to use SYS$SYNCH or to check both for an EF that has been ? >set and for a nonzero IOSB... operation is not yet complete";   >??? how does this occur;   G This would be a completion EF on the IO. For example, some other asynch B function might end up setting that EF by mistake, if it were coded badly.  C >*) I've heard of spurious wakeups, but it isn't easily possible to  >miss an event flag set is it?;   A I've never seen it happen, but I hesitate to say it can't happen.    >thanks for any suggestions; >--bn (Bart Nickerson) >nickerson@pundit.ds.boeing.com  >(206) 662-0183    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 19:44:47 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 1 Subject: Re: Debugging AST and Event Flag lockups , Message-ID: <3DADF9DB.C05530FD@videotron.ca>  M Are you sure the event flag has been clear $CLEREF (I think) prior to issuing C the first IO and then going into LEF with a $WAITEF or equivalent ?   M If the first time around, the event flag has already been set, you'd have the N first $WAITEF return immediatly even though the IO wouldn't have completed and0 then the rest of the program may be out of sync.  K Have you considered using $READEF in strategic locations of your program to L obtain the flag state and the using printf or whetever to output the value ?N (I know that printf is a no-no in an AST, but in a bind , it works really well to debug stuff).   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:39:54 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)1 Subject: Re: Debugging AST and Event Flag lockups K Message-ID: <rdeininger-1610022139540001@1cust165.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   J In article <H43H2C.C5y@news.boeing.com>, nickerson@pundit.ds.boeing.com () wrote:   >hi,   > B >I have some code that uses ASTs, EventFlags, Waitfr; the mainlineA >code seems to sit waiting for a set event flag that never seems  @ >to occur; meanwhile believe that I have set the flag in an AST;A >I am looking for hints and information on how to best debug the  / >problem; the code has the following attributes   I Set aside a few hours to study the debugger manual.  Start with the table I of contents, so you get an idea of what is available.  The chapter titled 5 "Debugging Special Cases" should also be of interest.     ? >*) how do you examine event flags; I know you can from another 3 >terminal do a $ show process/id=xxxxxxx/continuous , >is there a way to do this in VMSdebugger?;   J If you include debugging functions in your program, you can call them from7 the debugger.  See the description of the CALL command.     D >*) what about doing a "deposit" to set an event flag with debugger;  I Again, you could include a small routine to do this, and call it from the 	 debugger.   : I think other posters have addressed your other questions.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:04:24 -0700 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>! Subject: DIR shows "no such file" 0 Message-ID: <01C27503.E7821990@sulfer.icius.com>  @ OK, I just ran into a strange one. There is a file in one of our$ directories that shows up like this:   $ dir exe:menm001aa.exe;/full   & Directory DEV3:[MEN.ICIDEV.][EXE_AXP6]    MENM001AA.EXE;1     no such file   Total of 1 file, 0/0 blocks.  G I can't delete it, I can't rename it, I can't do anything with it. I've H never seen this before, and I don't know what to make of it. It looks toH me like it's in the directory, but the underlying file's gone. We're notG using any 3rd party disk tools, we don't symbolically link the file, so  I'm not sure how that can be.   F I'm about to dive into the manuals in search of help, but it's quite aG key file and we need to fix it pretty quick. Anyone have a quick fix up $ their sleeves while I hit the books?   Shane    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:28:24 -0700 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>% Subject: RE: DIR shows "no such file" 0 Message-ID: <01C2750F.8BD58260@sulfer.icius.com>  C With a little offline advice from a couple of kind people, I have a D workaround. However, it got weirder, and I still don't have a properH fix. SET FILE/REMOVE didn't work, before anyone asks. Complains about no/ such file. There's also no ACLs attached to it.   C So, I renamed everything else into a new directory, and swapped the D directory names so I now have a new dir sans dodgy file reference. IA then SET FILE /NODIR'd the old directory and deleted it, then ran C ANAL/DISK/REPAIR to clean up any resulting mess. To my surprise, it G found the supposedly nonexistant file and put it in syslost. Here's the H kicker, it's still got the same problem. I am now officially confused asF hell. It doesn't seem to be using any disk space though - it's usually< enormous, and the disk's usually close to full, so I'd know.  E The urgency's gone, but if anyone has an explanation for this one I'd  love to hear it.   Shane    -----Original Message----- From: Shane Smith * Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:04 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ! Subject: DIR shows "no such file"     @ OK, I just ran into a strange one. There is a file in one of our$ directories that shows up like this:   $ dir exe:menm001aa.exe;/full   & Directory DEV3:[MEN.ICIDEV.][EXE_AXP6]    MENM001AA.EXE;1     no such file   Total of 1 file, 0/0 blocks.  G I can't delete it, I can't rename it, I can't do anything with it. I'vesH never seen this before, and I don't know what to make of it. It looks toH me like it's in the directory, but the underlying file's gone. We're notG using any 3rd party disk tools, we don't symbolically link the file, soY I'm not sure how that can be.d  F I'm about to dive into the manuals in search of help, but it's quite aG key file and we need to fix it pretty quick. Anyone have a quick fix upn$ their sleeves while I hit the books?   Shaneh   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 13:16:00 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) % Subject: Re: DIR shows "no such file""3 Message-ID: <YCijkTq6qomc@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  W In article <01C27503.E7821990@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:fB > OK, I just ran into a strange one. There is a file in one of our& > directories that shows up like this: >  > $ dir exe:menm001aa.exe;/fullC > ( > Directory DEV3:[MEN.ICIDEV.][EXE_AXP6] > " > MENM001AA.EXE;1     no such file >  > Total of 1 file, 0/0 blocks. > I > I can't delete it, I can't rename it, I can't do anything with it. I'venJ > never seen this before, and I don't know what to make of it. It looks toJ > me like it's in the directory, but the underlying file's gone. We're notI > using any 3rd party disk tools, we don't symbolically link the file, so  > I'm not sure how that can be.t > H > I'm about to dive into the manuals in search of help, but it's quite aI > key file and we need to fix it pretty quick. Anyone have a quick fix upl& > their sleeves while I hit the books? >  > Shane   ) 	What does $ANALYZE/DISK/NOREPAIR report?    			Rob   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 13:21:47 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) % Subject: Re: DIR shows "no such file"?3 Message-ID: <h2lXLbjs$DQ$@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  W In article <01C27503.E7821990@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:rB > OK, I just ran into a strange one. There is a file in one of our& > directories that shows up like this: >  > $ dir exe:menm001aa.exe;/fullr > ( > Directory DEV3:[MEN.ICIDEV.][EXE_AXP6] > " > MENM001AA.EXE;1     no such file >  > Total of 1 file, 0/0 blocks. >   L    Most likely the entry in the directory exists, but not in the index file.    Try:s      set file/remove   or      analyze/disk/repair   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:26:08 -0400e2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>% Subject: Re: DIR shows "no such file" . Message-ID: <3DADAF40.C8B68D28@mindspring.com>   Shane Smith wrote:  B > OK, I just ran into a strange one. There is a file in one of our& > directories that shows up like this: >c > $ dir exe:menm001aa.exe;/fullt >n( > Directory DEV3:[MEN.ICIDEV.][EXE_AXP6] >c" > MENM001AA.EXE;1     no such file >  > Total of 1 file, 0/0 blocks. >yI > I can't delete it, I can't rename it, I can't do anything with it. I've-> > never seen this before, and I don't know what to make of it.  2 "You could make a hat, or you could make a broach,! or you could make a pterodactyl!"    (Sorry)O  
 > It looks to_@ > me like it's in the directory, but the underlying file's gone.  9 Right. "Files" are really just collections of disk blocks'7 pointed to by an entry in INDEXF.SYS and known by their  File ID number.0  5 What you see in a directory is simply an alias of they< real file. Directories just provide a translation table from3 the human-usable filename to the (internal) File IDe5 number. All the rest of the data that is displayed by 1 $ DIRECTORY comes from reading the data about thes file stored in INDEXF.SYS.  6 Most user files  have only one entry in one directory,5 but $ SET FILE /ENTRY allows you to create additionale= directory entries, all pointing to the same single underlyingo5 file. The analagous command (which escapes me but mayn2 be $ DELETE /ENTRY) allows you to remove directory entries.  1 It sounds like someone did a $ SET FILE /ENTRY on 5 your mysterious file, thus creating at least a secondu8 directory entry for it. Then they did an rm, err, I mean0 $ DELETE which removed one directory entry *AND* the real file.  4 Now you're left with at least one "orphan" directory+ entry that no longer points to a real file.n  5 Before you fix it, you may want to study this file inm. more detail, but IIRC, $ ANALYZE /DISK can fix1 this up for you automagically. Alternatively, the / command I can't remember (which may be $ DELETE . /ENTRY) can remove this one orphaned directory entry for you.   Atlant   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:39:58 GMTo9 From: Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com>t% Subject: Re: DIR shows "no such file" / Message-ID: <3DADB027.2D0AB935@eps.zko.dec.com>o   Shane Smith wrote:  B > OK, I just ran into a strange one. There is a file in one of our& > directories that shows up like this: >e > $ dir exe:menm001aa.exe;/fully >a( > Directory DEV3:[MEN.ICIDEV.][EXE_AXP6] >_" > MENM001AA.EXE;1     no such file  L Easy it's just a directory entry pointing to nowhere: containing a no-longer valid file id.0 Try DIR/FILE for a first level of understanding.C Do the same on a good file and play with DUMP/HEAD/BLO=COUN=0 [/ID]d    D > I can't delete it, I can't rename it, I can't do anything with it.  % Use SET FILE/REMOVE to get rid of it.M1 Use SET FILE/ENTER + DELETE to get more of these.s   Hein.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:30:35 -0400C* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>% Subject: Re: DIR shows "no such file" 5 Message-ID: <Sdir9.15751$H67.70601@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>    Do an ANALYZE/DISK /REPAIR  L Your file may end up in the [SYSLOST] directory, depending on the real cause of the problem.-G It may have been deleted while openm for read (not write) and will onlyrG really go away when it's close. Or soething happened to this directory.i  5 Beware: you disk will be frozen while this is runningl   --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais) 8 To reply to myself directly, remove zulu from my address  A "Shane Smith" <ssmith@icius.com> a crit dans le message de news:2% 01C27503.E7821990@sulfer.icius.com... B > OK, I just ran into a strange one. There is a file in one of our& > directories that shows up like this: >  > $ dir exe:menm001aa.exe;/fullu > ( > Directory DEV3:[MEN.ICIDEV.][EXE_AXP6] >a" > MENM001AA.EXE;1     no such file >c > Total of 1 file, 0/0 blocks. >oI > I can't delete it, I can't rename it, I can't do anything with it. I've J > never seen this before, and I don't know what to make of it. It looks toJ > me like it's in the directory, but the underlying file's gone. We're notI > using any 3rd party disk tools, we don't symbolically link the file, soL > I'm not sure how that can be.  >eH > I'm about to dive into the manuals in search of help, but it's quite aI > key file and we need to fix it pretty quick. Anyone have a quick fix upE& > their sleeves while I hit the books? >o > Shane    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:02:55 +0200g- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>l% Subject: Re: DIR shows "no such file" ' Message-ID: <3DADC5EF.AC589E4E@Free.fr>    You're getting old, Atlant :-)   Atlant Schmidt wrote:r > 8 > Most user files  have only one entry in one directory,7 > but $ SET FILE /ENTRY allows you to create additional ? > directory entries, all pointing to the same single underlying 7 > file. The analogous command (which escapes me but mays4 > be $ DELETE /ENTRY) allows you to remove directory
 > entries.  > It's SET FILE/ENTER and SET FILE/REMOVE, if my memory is good.  M There is also a SET FILE/NODIR to declare a directory as a vanilia file which'O can be deleted even if there are files in the dir. Files "deleted" that way aree: moved to SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SYSLOST] with ANALYZE (see below).  + DELETE/ENTRY is for BATCH and Print jobs...   7 > Before you fix it, you may want to study this file in 0 > more detail, but IIRC, $ ANALYZE /DISK can fix  > this up for you automagically.  L I recommend $ analyze/disk/repair/confirm which will prompt for each repair.   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:20:34 -0400H1 From: Ed Wensell III <ewensell3@yahoo.commercial>0% Subject: Re: DIR shows "no such file"n0 Message-ID: <3DADE632.4631535D@yahoo.commercial>   Shane Smith wrote: > B > OK, I just ran into a strange one. There is a file in one of our& > directories that shows up like this: >  > $ dir exe:menm001aa.exe;/full: > ( > Directory DEV3:[MEN.ICIDEV.][EXE_AXP6] > " > MENM001AA.EXE;1     no such file >  > Total of 1 file, 0/0 blocks. > I > I can't delete it, I can't rename it, I can't do anything with it. I'verJ > never seen this before, and I don't know what to make of it. It looks toJ > me like it's in the directory, but the underlying file's gone. We're notI > using any 3rd party disk tools, we don't symbolically link the file, so  > I'm not sure how that can be.e  H Are there any other files/dirs on the system like this? Is the volume in< question on a RAID set? Any orange/dead lights on the disks?  F The last time I saw this was in a RAID5 volume with a failed disk, butC no hotspare to rebuild to. As soon as we got a replacement disk the H controller rebuilt the volume on the new disk and all the "no such file" files returned.    Just a thought...v   --   Ed Wensell III  ; E-mail address is valid if you know the right bits to drop.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:55:24 -0700o$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>% Subject: RE: DIR shows "no such file" 0 Message-ID: <01C2752C.82E98CB0@sulfer.icius.com>  1 It's RAID, but the set's OK as far as I can tell.H   Shanei   -----Original Message-----8 From: Ed Wensell III [mailto:ewensell3@yahoo.commercial]) Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:21 PM) To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt% Subject: Re: DIR shows "no such file"u     Shane Smith wrote: > B > OK, I just ran into a strange one. There is a file in one of our& > directories that shows up like this: >  > $ dir exe:menm001aa.exe;/fullb > ( > Directory DEV3:[MEN.ICIDEV.][EXE_AXP6] > " > MENM001AA.EXE;1     no such file >  > Total of 1 file, 0/0 blocks. > I > I can't delete it, I can't rename it, I can't do anything with it. I'veuJ > never seen this before, and I don't know what to make of it. It looks toJ > me like it's in the directory, but the underlying file's gone. We're notI > using any 3rd party disk tools, we don't symbolically link the file, sor > I'm not sure how that can be.   H Are there any other files/dirs on the system like this? Is the volume in< question on a RAID set? Any orange/dead lights on the disks?  F The last time I saw this was in a RAID5 volume with a failed disk, butC no hotspare to rebuild to. As soon as we got a replacement disk the H controller rebuilt the volume on the new disk and all the "no such file" files returned.    Just a thought...A   -- a Ed Wensell III  ; E-mail address is valid if you know the right bits to drop.    ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 15:56:23 -0700, From: colive@technologEase.com (Chris Olive)% Subject: Re: DIR shows "no such file" = Message-ID: <b10654c6.0210161456.66b50764@posting.google.com>   h Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<3DADAF40.C8B68D28@mindspring.com>... > Shane Smith wrote: > D > > OK, I just ran into a strange one. There is a file in one of our( > > directories that shows up like this: > >a! > > $ dir exe:menm001aa.exe;/fulls > > * > > Directory DEV3:[MEN.ICIDEV.][EXE_AXP6] > > $ > > MENM001AA.EXE;1     no such file > >e  > > Total of 1 file, 0/0 blocks. > >sK > > I can't delete it, I can't rename it, I can't do anything with it. I'ves@ > > never seen this before, and I don't know what to make of it. > 4 > "You could make a hat, or you could make a broach,# > or you could make a pterodactyl!"o > 	 > (Sorry)  >  > > It looks to B > > me like it's in the directory, but the underlying file's gone. > ; > Right. "Files" are really just collections of disk blocks 9 > pointed to by an entry in INDEXF.SYS and known by their- > File ID number.e > 7 > What you see in a directory is simply an alias of theu> > real file. Directories just provide a translation table from5 > the human-usable filename to the (internal) File IDH7 > number. All the rest of the data that is displayed byh3 > $ DIRECTORY comes from reading the data about thee > file stored in INDEXF.SYS. > 8 > Most user files  have only one entry in one directory,7 > but $ SET FILE /ENTRY allows you to create additional ? > directory entries, all pointing to the same single underlying>7 > file. The analagous command (which escapes me but may24 > be $ DELETE /ENTRY) allows you to remove directory
 > entries. >   @ Oh, not to get all persnickitty on you, but then again this is aC (not-often-enough!) "technical" forum...  Precisely, the command istC SET FILE/ENTER for the former and SET FILE/REMOVE for the later (asp? someone already wrote.)  With all that you wrote about FIDs andwC INDEXF.SYS, etc. it's obvious *you* probably know; this is just fory* the benefit of other readers that may not.   Regards, Chris    > [snippity, snip, snip] >  > Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:48:40 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>% Subject: Re: DIR shows "no such file" , Message-ID: <3DAE08E8.1080800@tsoft-inc.com>   Hein van den Heuvel wrote:   >  > Shane Smith wrote: >  > B >>OK, I just ran into a strange one. There is a file in one of our& >>directories that shows up like this: >> >>$ dir exe:menm001aa.exe;/full- >>( >>Directory DEV3:[MEN.ICIDEV.][EXE_AXP6] >>" >>MENM001AA.EXE;1     no such file      Other posts explain the problem.  O Look, s**t happens.  Analyze/Disk is your friend.  Do this on a regular basis.  % You might be surprised what you find.    Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:45:10 -0700 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>% Subject: RE: DIR shows "no such file"60 Message-ID: <01C27544.38AAF8B0@sulfer.icius.com>  G I've now got a total of three files in this state. Analyze/disk doesn'taF touch it (doesn't even detect it), and set file/remove doesn't fix it.H And we never use set file/enter here anyway. When I mentioned it, it was< blank stares all round - nobody knew it existed. The obviousG explaination doesn't apply in this case, nor does the fix. I'm about torG "get medieval on its a**" with a reboot and maybe the bad block utility, if I can find the docs.f  < Sure, s**t happens, but this is weirder s**t that the usual.   Shane2   -----Original Message-----/ From: David Froble [mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com]m) Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 5:49 PMd To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coml% Subject: Re: DIR shows "no such file"o     Hein van den Heuvel wrote:   >  > Shane Smith wrote: >  > B >>OK, I just ran into a strange one. There is a file in one of our& >>directories that shows up like this: >> >>$ dir exe:menm001aa.exe;/full  >>( >>Directory DEV3:[MEN.ICIDEV.][EXE_AXP6] >>" >>MENM001AA.EXE;1     no such file      Other posts explain the problem.  G Look, s**t happens.  Analyze/Disk is your friend.  Do this on a regular  basis. d% You might be surprised what you find.    Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:55:42 -0400 1 From: Ed Wensell III <ewensell3@yahoo.commercial>c% Subject: Re: DIR shows "no such file" 0 Message-ID: <3DAE26AE.56AE7506@yahoo.commercial>   Shane Smith wrote: > 3 > It's RAID, but the set's OK as far as I can tell.E >  > ShaneO  H Just for grins and giggles, it's not an RA200 based RAID installed on an AS2100 is it?? :)    -- n Ed Wensell III  ; E-mail address is valid if you know the right bits to drop.w   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:52:12 -0400y From: "ICUSC" <sales@hpaq.net>  Subject: DS10L 512MB 60GB USD699/ Message-ID: <uqs5pt23cqvca7@news.supernews.com>o   www.hpaq.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:41:08 -05003! From: Dan Moore <dmoore@sosu.edu> # Subject: DS25 Boot from VMS 7.3 CD?e( Message-ID: <3DAE3F64.E8384F49@sosu.edu>  
 Greetings!  6   We are the proud owners of an Alpha DS25. I usually 7 hate to be one of the first to own such a new box, but t7 I thought the new series of Alpha's would be worth it.  : Now I know why I hate to be the first to own a new box...   5   VMS 7.3-1 is apparently the minimum version of VMS  5 that the DS25 is supposed to run? I'm floored. We hadl5 planned on upgrading to 7.3, but the 7.3 CD will not  2 see the internal SCSI drives as the upgrade target6 when booted from the internal IDE CD-RW drive. It just: sees the IDE devices (Lovely). We have plenty of 7.3 media6 available, but no 7.3-1. We subscribe to the quarterly: software updates and also the CSLG (for education), so we 7 always have plenty of  installation media and licenses e0 floating around (Except for our VMS 7.3-1). The 6 subscription service was our alternative to purchasingB the CD media with the hardware. Hmmm... better rethink that one...   My plan::   Upgrade the VMS on another test box (Alpha 1200) to 7.3,; then physically put that disk image on the DS25 and see if  8 the upgraded VMS 7.3 and the DS25 SCSI drives like each 9 other.  I have a gut feeling they will, but I wondered ifl; anyone had any interesting comments or creative suggestionse about this procedure.   <   The DS25 came with a VMS 7.3-1 system disk pre-installed, ; but this is not much help if you want to upgrade from your s< current system disk, which is running VMS 7.1-1H1 very well.  9   After we get over the VMS 7.3-1 issue, we are going to  ; cluster the box with the Alpha 1200, and volume shadow overn; Fibre Gig Ethernet. We love VMS and Alpha. We are not facedd= with these issues very often and it will be at least another  7 3-5 years before we are thinking about upgrading again.a
 Maybe longer.r   Many Thanks,   Dani    K -----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------eG    http://www.newsfeed.com       The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!gM -----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:29:48 -0700 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> Subject: Hammer SPECint/SPECfp0 Message-ID: <01C27542.262893C0@sulfer.icius.com>  G Interesting, although completely uncorroborated. Supposedly the OpteronyF (AMD's product name for one of the first 64-bit Hammers expected to beF released) will have an estimated SPECint 2000 of 1202 and an estimated9 SPECfp of 1170. The supposed AMD slide can be found here:3H http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTAzNDgwODE0OXZQdXFtNGFzbFVfMV8y X2wuanBn  F (sorry for the likely wraparound, and the fact my Outlook (hawk, spit)G seems to have jammed in "rich text format" for the moment. Damn, I hatee MS.)  F Note my liberal use of qualifiers. The slide came in a PDF sent to theF overclockers' website HardOCP, but they didn't say from where. HardOCPG are usually pretty reliable, and they're claiming the PDF originated inh= AMD. However, we all know how wonderfully reliable and honestp< pre-release, unaudited information from manufacturers is.... (cough*Parhelia*cough)   For comparison: : http://www.specbench.org/osg/cpu2000/results/cint2000.html9 http://www.specbench.org/osg/cpu2000/results/cfp2000.htmle  B I sure wish there were some Itanic numbers on there, I'd be really5 interested to see them. Anyone got any reliable ones?,   ShaneA   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:36:03 -0500c1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o" Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit Contents' Message-ID: <3DAE2213.67A2505E@fsi.net>d  
 VAXVMS wrote:a > G >     Perhaps I'm dense but instead of distributing the entire CONDIST,SJ >     wouldn't it make better sense to only distribute the stuff for which# >     hobbyist licenses are issued?I  C That's actually what I was going for when I attempted to write somerA automation to handle it. See my earlier post in response to SimonA Clubley.   -- i David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:53:53 -0400oK From: "Encompass - HP Enterprise Technology Symposium" <KilleenJ@toast.net>v  Subject: HP-ETS 2002 Evaluations/ Message-ID: <uqrkf7h0o9jlc3@corp.supernews.com>b  H You can now enter session eval on any session you attended (not just theH ones in your personal scheduler).  Also the event survey is now on line. Login required...e   --   Jeff Killeen   All Info: http://www.Killeen.ccw  ? ---------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:09:21 -0400 K From: "Encompass - HP Enterprise Technology Symposium" <KilleenJ@toast.net>t. Subject: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line/ Message-ID: <uqrvtopl4p9b91@corp.supernews.com>m  " www.hpets2002.com - login required     --   Jeff Killeen   All Info: http://www.Killeen.cc   ? ---------------------------------------------------------------A   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:37:17 -0700a$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>2 Subject: RE: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line0 Message-ID: <01C2753A.CA93C4F0@sulfer.icius.com>  E Why the login and e-mail verification? The less hassle to get in, then@ more people will surf it. I'm assuming there are none of the NDAE presentations there, so wouldn't it be better to make it open and getn more people reading them?   B I get quite enough spam already, and since the e-mail verificationE wasn't mentioned up front president@whitehouse.gov is about to get ani unexplained hpets password...C   Shanel   -----Original Message-----4 From: Encompass - HP Enterprise Technology Symposium [mailto:KilleenJ@toast.net]T) Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 5:09 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com . Subject: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line    " www.hpets2002.com - login required     --   Jeff Killeen   All Info: http://www.Killeen.ccC  ? ---------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:19:45 -0400R- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>O2 Subject: Re: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line, Message-ID: <3DAE1017.BDF57641@videotron.ca>   Shane Smith wrote: > ) > Why the login and e-mail verification? e  H Just forget about it. If they wanted those materials to be publish, theyB wouldn't hide them behind a "firewall" that requires password etc.  I last year, I recall that after some loud debates, their web site was madedL irrelevant when all Digital produced presentations were published on the VMSM web site, bypassing the silly decus/whatever_the_name-is_this-week attemps atm" restricting access to information.  J Wait a while and the stuff will be made available on the VMS web site. not0 worth even complaining to what is left of decus.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:28:29 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>A Subject: Re: Life after VMS?, Message-ID: <3DADBDD9.4536238F@videotron.ca>   Didier Morandi wrote:mQ > You hit the point, JF. Is HP interested in the DEC part (and people, and spiritf8 > and products) of CPQ? This is to me the only question. > O > A "normal" answer would be "it depends on the $$ it brings". This is why I dor& > believe that VMS is not dead at all.  ? During the downfall decade of Digital, many "wrong" people wereOL hired/promoted. They are the ones who didn't understand the power of VMS andN saw VMS as a liability (proprietary, expensive, old, legacy etc) instead of an asset.    K The problem is that it is those very same people that were kept when CompaqaB bought DEC and downsized it. And they will probably stay under HP.  M After a company has been bought, with the spectre of many many job cuts, MostiL smart employees will decide to abide by whatever head office decides insteadN of trying to fight to change attitudes.  Folks like Marcello have been betweenM a rock and a hard place because they know the potential of their product, buttK also know that the minute they try to rock the boat, they are out the door.i  K When I look at Stallard's original memo, it is clear that inside of HP, thedL same anti-VMS attitudes also exist.  (Or the guy was (easily) brainwashed byO the "bad" ex-decies and folks like Winkler during the merger pregnancy period).n  N This is why a change in attitudes for VMS *must* come from Carly herself. OnlyN she is able to force a cultural change throughout the organisation. Only CarlyH is able to ovverride folks like Curly and Winkler, and possibly StallardN (judging from his original memo, Stallard would not seem to see much potential in VMS).  N There have been many instances in my experience where the local office does asI it is told by head office even though it knows that it isn't good for its7  customers. They have no choice.   K Fred and/or Hoff have mentioned that the VMS group was allowed to make somedM presentations to HP folks about VMS to make them aware of its existence. ThiswK is a good sign. But will this trickle down to local sales offices ?  If so, L will it have just minimal impact because the local office will still have to- abide by the big rules made by head office ? a  P I look forwards to seing that Video of Carly who actually mentions the word VMS.  K Now, if Carly is serious about VMS, I would like to see her go to SWIFT andfI get them to recommit to VMS (SWIFT dropped VMS from their next generation H products after Palmer told them VMS had no future).  This would start byM telling a certain person in Valbonnes to stop telling customers that they can M migrate from ST400 to Wintel stuff.  (at the very least, he should be pushing  tandem based SWIFT solutions).  J *IF* Carly takes real, concrete actions to change attitude about VMS, thisK will happen fairly quickly. For this to happen, someone like Marcello wouldoM have to risk his job and position within the organisation, go over many headsgL (Stallard, Curly etc) and talk directly to Carly and try to buck the system.  M If they try the slow/quiet approach (as seems to be the case) , it will neverpG trickle UP to Carly because there are many layers of people between theaM "grunts" and Carly and those layers will not transmit a message to Carly whenr$ that message contradicts their own.   N Would Capellas have the guts to admit to Carly that he was wrong about VMS and' that VMS should become more prominent ?h   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:47:41 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i Subject: Re: Life after VMS?, Message-ID: <3DADC259.3A81F2C9@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:lI > You should escalate VMS-related problems like this to Sue Skonetski and - > Mark Gorham AS SOON AS YOU HEAR ABOUT THEM.   I While such an action will put existing customers in touch with Sue , mark K Gorham and possibly Marcello and resolve that customer's problems, it won'tdI solve the problem of local sales offices being inept for VMS (and in manysM cases prevented from pitching a VMS solution unless requested by a customer).y  L You may save customer, on a customer by customer basis, but you'll be makingJ the local sales office problem worse since they won't be trying to fix VMSO problems anymore as customers won't waste time and go direct the the VMS group.y  H Long ago, I suggested VMS drop "local offices" and make a central sales"I support organisation that would bypass all the useless Compaq local sales-M offices who were not allowed to push VMS solutions, unless specifically askedm by a customer to discuss VMS.:  M We now have the VMS ambassadors that seem to be spread worldwide, and the VMScG group seems to have taken active steps, in the last couple of years, totE get/keep in touch with its VMS customers. Is this a long term goal tovM centralise worldwide sales and forget about local sales offices, or just somed8 temporary stop-gap measure until local sales offices are= allowed/trained/brainwashed into providing good VMS service ?m   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:54:02 +0200o- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>n Subject: Re: Life after VMS?' Message-ID: <3DADC3DB.E47783A0@Free.fr>t   JF Mezei wrote:A >  ../..aP > This is why a change in attitudes for VMS *must* come from Carly herself. OnlyP > she is able to force a cultural change throughout the organisation. Only CarlyJ > is able to ovverride folks like Curly and Winkler, and possibly Stallard ../..n   So, let's start lobbying..   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:15:10 -0400p- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>I Subject: Re: Life after VMS?, Message-ID: <3DADC8C8.2A2B8137@videotron.ca>   Didier Morandi wrote:tQ > As far as I know, Sue is officially the Editor in Chief for OpenVMS Times and aaE > part time participant in this forum for Marketing-relatd announces.b > J > Mark is an US manager. I do not see a French consultant reporting issues > directly to the States.a  N Sue and Mark work for the VMS group. They may be located in the United States,N but they also have engineers located in other countries (we know that some (orE all ?) of the TCPIP services guys are on a beach on the gold coast oftN australia, and the ALL-IN-1 folks in Reading england have donated parts to VMSK (such as the IMAP server if I remember correctly). Not sure what is left inaM France (Valbonnes used to do a lot of the product translations for instance).   J While you may be right that the VMS group may not have direct jurisdictionG over local sales folks in any country, they can still get in touch withuI customers and bypass the VMS-inpetitudes at the local level. Of course, I-I don't think you can expect Sue to fluently speak French, German, Swahili, K Italiam, Spanish, Hungarian, Russian, Arabic, Indian, Australian AboriginalDH (all dialects), Inuktitut etc etc. That is what local sales offices were originally designed to do.  E HOWEVER, Sue can probably put your customer in touch with a local VMSlG Ambassador who will be able to provide the customer with local-languagec	 service. o  K Are there any VMS ambassadors that are not on the Compaq/HP payroll ? (eg: aN independant folks who get get paid by the VMS group out of the VMS group's own	 budget ?)k   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:41:40 -0700n$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> Subject: RE: Life after VMS?0 Message-ID: <01C2752A.8EF0FEF0@sulfer.icius.com>  G Don't forget the trickle-down effect. If someone powerful keeps gettingaF bugged because people junior to him/her aren't doing their jobs, (s)heH starts trying to get it fixed. If (s)he gets annoyed enough, it's not so much a trickle as a flood.  H Now of course in this case the uninformed people aren't on the same treeH as Mark, but I'd hope he'd be able to get some action taken by people on the right tree.    Shane    -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]* Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:48 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms Subject: Re: Life after VMS?     Robert Deininger wrote:aI > You should escalate VMS-related problems like this to Sue Skonetski andp- > Mark Gorham AS SOON AS YOU HEAR ABOUT THEM.i  D While such an action will put existing customers in touch with Sue , markE Gorham and possibly Marcello and resolve that customer's problems, itT won'trD solve the problem of local sales offices being inept for VMS (and in manyB cases prevented from pitching a VMS solution unless requested by a
 customer).  E You may save customer, on a customer by customer basis, but you'll bey makingF the local sales office problem worse since they won't be trying to fix VMS H problems anymore as customers won't waste time and go direct the the VMS group.  H Long ago, I suggested VMS drop "local offices" and make a central sales"C support organisation that would bypass all the useless Compaq localc sales G offices who were not allowed to push VMS solutions, unless specificallyi askede by a customer to discuss VMS.   E We now have the VMS ambassadors that seem to be spread worldwide, and  the VMS.G group seems to have taken active steps, in the last couple of years, toiE get/keep in touch with its VMS customers. Is this a long term goal toiH centralise worldwide sales and forget about local sales offices, or just some8 temporary stop-gap measure until local sales offices are= allowed/trained/brainwashed into providing good VMS service ?,   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:50:35 -0400i2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Life after VMS?K Message-ID: <rdeininger-1610022050350001@1cust165.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   6 In article <3DAD4EA6.D68E8165@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote:e   >Robert Deininger wrote: >> :J >> You should escalate VMS-related problems like this to Sue Skonetski andG >> Mark Gorham AS SOON AS YOU HEAR ABOUT THEM.  There's no advantage toiJ >> letting the problem fester.  A calm "Customer (or potential customer) XK >> needs Y and has been unable to get needed information from Z" should get0 >> the ball rolling. >e >Bob,E >[P >As far as I know, Sue is officially the Editor in Chief for OpenVMS Times and aD >part time participant in this forum for Marketing-relatd announces. >aI >Mark is an US manager. I do not see a French consultant reporting issuesm >directly to the States. >lF >Now, if everyone here (and elsewhere) wants to know, it does not seem
 that thereJ >is someone in France or even in Europe who still cares about selling VMS. >w >Am I clear, this time?   
 Partly clear.o  G If you have a regional or industry-focused VMS contact THAT IS WORKING, J use it.  If you aren't getting what you need relative to VMS, anywhere, itE is within Sue's and Mark's area of responsibility and you are free to   communicate with either of them.  D In addition to the things you mentioned, Sue is in charge of the VMS ambassadors, worldwide.u  I Mark is the VP of VMS, worldwide.  He is the highest-ranking person in HPaI who's whole job is VMS.  He travels to Europe fairly often.  If sales andh> support for VMS are broken, anywhere, he should hear about it.   Am I clear, this time?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:52:26 -0400x2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Life after VMS?K Message-ID: <rdeininger-1610022052260001@1cust165.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>t  J In article <00A158CE.85284B98.22@decus.de>, Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> wrote:  D >And it is stated on the very first page of this "Rolling Roadmaps": > D >"HP makes *NO* warranties regarding the accuracy of any informationE >disclosed. This time sensitive information is provided to facilitateAE >customer planning processes. HP does *NOT* warrant or represent thatnG >it will introduce any product or feature to which this information mayo' >relate." (Negations emphasized by me.)a >xG >So what is the relevance of this "Roadmap" really??? (The same is trueX >for "Commitments".)  ? The questions apply to any other vendor in the industry, right?t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:53:07 -0400n( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: Life after VMS?, Message-ID: <3DAE09F3.9020509@tsoft-inc.com>   Michael Unger wrote:  * > "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote: >  >  >>A few suggestions -. >> >>[...]i >>F >>5. Reference the following for the latest Oct 02 roadmaps (which now >>mention OpenVMS V8.0)hD >>http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps.htm >> >>[...]e >> > E > And it is stated on the very first page of this "Rolling Roadmaps":l > E > "HP makes *NO* warranties regarding the accuracy of any informationdF > disclosed. This time sensitive information is provided to facilitateF > customer planning processes. HP does *NOT* warrant or represent thatH > it will introduce any product or feature to which this information may( > relate." (Negations emphasized by me.) > H > So what is the relevance of this "Roadmap" really??? (The same is true > for "Commitments".)  > 	 > Michaely >   P The relevance is that these are things that they are working on, or planning on N working on, or thinking about working on.  That's better than not planning on O doing things, or stating that things will not be done.  The disclaimers are so oO that you don't reach for a stopwatch with one hand and a lawyer with the other.o   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:07:31 -0400i( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: Life after VMS?, Message-ID: <3DAE0D53.3040102@tsoft-inc.com>   JF Mezei wrote:    > Didier Morandi wrote:n > Q >>You hit the point, JF. Is HP interested in the DEC part (and people, and spirite8 >>and products) of CPQ? This is to me the only question. >>O >>A "normal" answer would be "it depends on the $$ it brings". This is why I doD& >>believe that VMS is not dead at all. >> > A > During the downfall decade of Digital, many "wrong" people wereeN > hired/promoted. They are the ones who didn't understand the power of VMS andP > saw VMS as a liability (proprietary, expensive, old, legacy etc) instead of an	 > asset.   > M > The problem is that it is those very same people that were kept when CompaqrD > bought DEC and downsized it. And they will probably stay under HP. > O > After a company has been bought, with the spectre of many many job cuts, MosteN > smart employees will decide to abide by whatever head office decides insteadP > of trying to fight to change attitudes.  Folks like Marcello have been betweenO > a rock and a hard place because they know the potential of their product, butSM > also know that the minute they try to rock the boat, they are out the door.s > M > When I look at Stallard's original memo, it is clear that inside of HP, the N > same anti-VMS attitudes also exist.  (Or the guy was (easily) brainwashed byQ > the "bad" ex-decies and folks like Winkler during the merger pregnancy period).o > P > This is why a change in attitudes for VMS *must* come from Carly herself. OnlyP > she is able to force a cultural change throughout the organisation. Only CarlyJ > is able to ovverride folks like Curly and Winkler, and possibly StallardP > (judging from his original memo, Stallard would not seem to see much potential
 > in VMS). > P > There have been many instances in my experience where the local office does asK > it is told by head office even though it knows that it isn't good for itst" > customers. They have no choice.  > M > Fred and/or Hoff have mentioned that the VMS group was allowed to make somesO > presentations to HP folks about VMS to make them aware of its existence. ThisnM > is a good sign. But will this trickle down to local sales offices ?  If so,'N > will it have just minimal impact because the local office will still have to/ > abide by the big rules made by head office ? r > R > I look forwards to seing that Video of Carly who actually mentions the word VMS. > M > Now, if Carly is serious about VMS, I would like to see her go to SWIFT andaK > get them to recommit to VMS (SWIFT dropped VMS from their next generation J > products after Palmer told them VMS had no future).  This would start byO > telling a certain person in Valbonnes to stop telling customers that they canrO > migrate from ST400 to Wintel stuff.  (at the very least, he should be pushing.  > tandem based SWIFT solutions). > L > *IF* Carly takes real, concrete actions to change attitude about VMS, thisM > will happen fairly quickly. For this to happen, someone like Marcello wouldaO > have to risk his job and position within the organisation, go over many heads N > (Stallard, Curly etc) and talk directly to Carly and try to buck the system. > O > If they try the slow/quiet approach (as seems to be the case) , it will neverrI > trickle UP to Carly because there are many layers of people between thenO > "grunts" and Carly and those layers will not transmit a message to Carly whene& > that message contradicts their own.  > P > Would Capellas have the guts to admit to Carly that he was wrong about VMS and) > that VMS should become more prominent ?y >     = Nice explanation.  Pretty much what one would expect.  But...s  N Carly went to see the VMS people.  Don't try to tell me this didn't include a Q private session with Marcello where she asks his opinions directly.  Any manager cO who wants the straight scoop does this at times.  Some assumptions there, I'll cP admit.  Still, I'm sure Rich would give his opinion if asked directly, and then O it gets down to her desire to hear it, her desire to go back to those normally iQ in between and ask some questions, and if she runs into resistance her desire to ;O buck the resistance, or her being convinced that other considerations are more o9 important.  Lots of future directions from such an event.'  Q Another thing to remember, PHBs tend to do what they think their boss wants them  M to do.  Should there be someone (Stallard?) that thought his job was to push  N HP-UX, and then Carly tells him to evaluate what VMS could do for HP, several D things could happen.  He might be an anti-VMS bigot, and resist the P 'suggestion'.  He might investigate, and determine that VMS will not do HP much K good.  He might investigate, and decide to let VMS prove itself, ie; don't aD oppress VMS, but don't help either.  He might decide to promote VMS.  K There have been declarations of the death of more than one product.  There bH hasn't *yet* been such said about VMS.  There have been *rumors* of the C opposite.  The HP/Compaq merger story is still in the early stages.    Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:47:53 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: Life after VMS?, Message-ID: <3DAE24BA.96D1401A@videotron.ca>   David Froble wrote:lE > opposite.  The HP/Compaq merger story is still in the early stages.   J HP didn't need to make timed commitments for Tandem or HP-UX. But for VMS,> they promised to keep it alive for at least X number of years.  M  My feeling at this point in time is that HP haven't quite made a decision on N VMS, so they are keeping it on life support. It didnn't take long for Carly to= announce more precise fate for Tandem, HP-UX, MPE and Tru64. a  N So it is normal that customers would not quite grasp what HP is really up to.   M What does Carly need before she can make an authoritative decision on VMS andcL tell all of her troups to comply with her wishes ? (that is how she directs, isn't she ?)  K Could they not simply say that once VMS becomes commercially viable on IA64dI that they would start to work on expanding/marketing/promoting VMS ? ThatsN would send a clear signal that would let customers know that patience would beM rewarded. But as it stands, there is no carot at the end of the stick, so whyD" should customers stick with VMS  ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:22:39 +0200,- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>g Subject: Re: Life after VMS?' Message-ID: <3DAE4920.EDD9C8CA@Free.fr>s   JF Mezei wrote:u >  ../..iL > Are there any VMS ambassadors that are not on the Compaq/HP payroll ? (eg:P > independant folks who get get paid by the VMS group out of the VMS group's own > budget ?)t   No, and I'm sure there aren't.  N But as far as Sue can point to this or that person, I did this kind of requestH half a dozen of times in the past three years. The ONLY opportunity whenP "someone" went back to me was when I contracted for COMPAQ Switzerland last yearL in a swiss bank. I had to introduce myself as a CPQ employee (which was easyN because I had a CPQ email address) and I also had to disturb a few US managersM to get support (thanks to Sue). And the "someone" who called back was a third O party vendor who has a special agreement with Compaq worldwide. No contact with.E Compaq Swiss or EMEA, no contact with any VMS ambassador, no nothing.i  M When I ask privileged contacts within CPQ France (former DECcies) the answers N are "we still do not know with which sauce we will be eaten, you see...". "YouJ should consider learning Linux". "Why don't you join C&A ?". "Maybe you'veP better graduate on a couple of SAP modules and forget about VMS". "Start writing& Tom Clancy books  la franaise". etc.  P And when you call the CSC in Paris, you are redirected to Dublin or elsewhere in[ Ireland and when you say VMS, you hear "VMS? please wait a minute, I'll ask my colleagues".t   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:25:00 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>  Subject: Re: Life after VMS?' Message-ID: <3DAE49AD.19869DD4@Free.fr>I   Robert Deininger wrote:  > I > If you have a regional or industry-focused VMS contact THAT IS WORKING,uL > use it.  If you aren't getting what you need relative to VMS, anywhere, itG > is within Sue's and Mark's area of responsibility and you are free toe" > communicate with either of them. > F > In addition to the things you mentioned, Sue is in charge of the VMS > ambassadors, worldwide.o > K > Mark is the VP of VMS, worldwide.  He is the highest-ranking person in HPrK > who's whole job is VMS.  He travels to Europe fairly often.  If sales andW@ > support for VMS are broken, anywhere, he should hear about it. >  > Am I clear, this time?  @ Yep. I sent mail to a French VMS ambassador yesterday. I'll see.   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 01:03:08 -0400-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r  Subject: MAIL management utility, Message-ID: <3DAE4465.3300DEE5@videotron.ca>  A With the death of ALL-IN-1, I am looking at moving to VMSmail andrI incorporating some of the features that made ALL-IN-1's email better thann VMSmail, to the extent I can.r  J One of those features is a batch janitor that runs at desired intervals toN process all user's mailboxes. It not only empties wastebaskets, but also flagsN for deletion unfiled read messages older than a set value. The user is sent anI email listing those messages and has until the next run of the janotor toaK either refile the messages or leave them there to be automatically deleted.0  G Would such a feature be helpful to others ? If so, what sort of regulars= management would sites want to be done on users's mailboxes ?u  F (would a weekly automated convert of user's mail files be desirable ?)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 19:41:17 +0200x From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>. Subject: Re: Mozilla doesn't like comp.os.vms?& Message-ID: <3DADA4BD.2060707@home.nl>   David Mathog wrote:x  A > I've been trying to read comp.os.vms through the mail/newsgrouprG > tool first in Netscape 7 and then in Mozilla 1.1 on RH 7.3 (Dual AMD ,
 > system). > * > This has not been working out very well. >e; > Both of these browsers eventually have some fatal problem-= > with this group.  The most common symptom is that they stope6 > being able to download new messages from the server.I > The "fix" for that is to unsubscribe the group, exit the browser, starttF > it up again, and resuscribe.  The problem that's really grim is that4 > sometimes changing View->Messages or View->Sort_byC > hangs not only the browser, but the enter X11 server, so that thee= > only way out is to nuke the server with ctrl-alt-backspace.o >cD > I've seen the "no download" glitch with other newsgroups, but onlyI > comp.os.vms has locked the system.  Probably because it is far and aways. > the highest volume newsgroup I subscribe to. >-3 > Does mozilla have these problems on VMS as well? 0  H No, not with my ISP. Could be a problem with the newsserver software of I your ISP. I'm using Netscape 7.0 om my PC, and Mozilla 1.2 alpha on VMS. n% I never saw the problems you mention.e   >s > G > Is there anything one can do to prevent them from happening (besides n! > moving to another news reader).  > 	 > Thanks,t >: >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:56:21 +0300s1 From: "mariuz pop andy" <mariuz@stop.spamming.us>e. Subject: Re: Mozilla doesn't like comp.os.vms?= Message-ID: <pan.2002.10.16.17.56.18.196420@stop.spamming.us>D  / use pan (newsreader) is faster than Moo Zila :)n      7 On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:33:41 +0000, David Mathog wrote:2  A > I've been trying to read comp.os.vms through the mail/newsgrouptG > tool first in Netscape 7 and then in Mozilla 1.1 on RH 7.3 (Dual AMD !
 > system). > * > This has not been working out very well. > ; > Both of these browsers eventually have some fatal problemh= > with this group.  The most common symptom is that they stopy6 > being able to download new messages from the server.I > The "fix" for that is to unsubscribe the group, exit the browser, startoF > it up again, and resuscribe.  The problem that's really grim is that4 > sometimes changing View->Messages or View->Sort_byC > hangs not only the browser, but the enter X11 server, so that thes= > only way out is to nuke the server with ctrl-alt-backspace.l > D > I've seen the "no download" glitch with other newsgroups, but onlyI > comp.os.vms has locked the system.  Probably because it is far and away . > the highest volume newsgroup I subscribe to. > 2 > Does mozilla have these problems on VMS as well? > G > Is there anything one can do to prevent them from happening (besides  ! > moving to another news reader).M > 	 > Thanks,s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:56:57 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: Old DECC for VAX , Message-ID: <3DADB678.7EDC531A@videotron.ca>   Pat Rankin wrote:iE >      It isn't an issue of patches.  Without installing the AACRT060 = > kit, there won't be any DECC$SHR at all on a V5.5-2 system u  G Ok I remember now, when DECC came out, there was some discussions aboutdJ providing support to existing systems, and as I recall, at that time, ISVsN were allowed to provide the DECC$SHR stuff to those customers (or something to
 that effect).i  L If the customer refuses to install AACRT60 on his 5.5-2, how about includingL the files from the kit with the application and then define DECC$SHR logicalB to point to those files in the same directory as the application ?  W This might be politically acceptable since it wouldn't require changes to the system....  K I know that one can link against a shareable that isn't installed. Is there ? anything in DECC$SHR that absolutely requires it be installed ?-  N Oh, and if you must revert to VAXC for compilation, and VAXCRTL for shareable,N beware that there are a few functions which exist in DECC but not in VAXC. OneL that comes to mind is strdup(string). Under VAX-C I had to write my own, andT when I moved to DECC, I was able to remove my own code and use the built-in version.   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 12:14:48 -0700+ From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)D= Subject: Open-source replacement for Digital Standard Runoff?m= Message-ID: <bec993c8.0210161114.732ff952@posting.google.com>e  B Is there an open-source functional equivalent for Digital Standard Runoff available?e  D If not, I might just go ahead and knock one off - it looks like it'sE two or three pages of Perl to make a RNO to HTML or PDF converter :-)    Tim.   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 16:06:56 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)MA Subject: Re: Open-source replacement for Digital Standard Runoff?e3 Message-ID: <3klAlxcWoMf7@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  k In article <bec993c8.0210161114.732ff952@posting.google.com>, shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes:/D > Is there an open-source functional equivalent for Digital Standard > Runoff available?n  A    Bonner labs runnoff used to show up on the SIG tapes.  IIRC ityE    was a superset of DSR.  Lately I can't find it, but maybe you can.e   ------------------------------   Date: 16 Oct 2002 22:38:46 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>A Subject: Re: Open-source replacement for Digital Standard Runoff? + Message-ID: <aokppm17pg@enews3.newsguy.com>n  = In alt.sys.pdp10 Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:lD > Is there an open-source functional equivalent for Digital Standard > Runoff available?h  F > If not, I might just go ahead and knock one off - it looks like it'sG > two or three pages of Perl to make a RNO to HTML or PDF converter :-)D  H Sounds like a good project for you!  I know I'd like to have access to a% tool that converts RNO to HTML & PDF!o   			Zanel   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:44:24 GMT0$ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUA Subject: Re: Open-source replacement for Digital Standard Runoff?a8 Message-ID: <00A158BB.BFAA601B@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  k In article <bec993c8.0210161114.732ff952@posting.google.com>, shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: C >Is there an open-source functional equivalent for Digital Standarde >Runoff available? > E >If not, I might just go ahead and knock one off - it looks like it's-F >two or three pages of Perl to make a RNO to HTML or PDF converter :-)  O I have a DSR_TO_RTF program in C which I extended from somebody else's version;lF while I was at it I made a new versio that does  DSR_TO_HTML.  It onlyI uses the parts of RUNOFF I typically use (and there's a bug with ^* in a uO  .HL that I haven't bothered to sort out), but its easy enough to extend if you- need to.  < Let me know if you want it.  My email address is not munged.   -- Alan    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 01:53:36 GMT.- From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>eA Subject: Re: Open-source replacement for Digital Standard Runoff?h= Message-ID: <AKor9.34041$m92.6463151@news1.news.adelphia.net>n   Zane H. Healy wrote:? > In alt.sys.pdp10 Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:s > D >>Is there an open-source functional equivalent for Digital Standard >>Runoff available?u  H Look at troff.  Not exactly equivalent, but you can see the resemblence.  2 IIRC: There is also nroff.  Probably a few others.  F >>If not, I might just go ahead and knock one off - it looks like it'sG >>two or three pages of Perl to make a RNO to HTML or PDF converter :-)T > J > Sounds like a good project for you!  I know I'd like to have access to a' > tool that converts RNO to HTML & PDF!   F I have been playing with a TPU program that is getting pretty good at E converting open-source man pages to DSR format for creating .RNO and - .RNH files.-   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only,   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 20:43:53 -07001 From: Paul Rubin <phr-n2002b@NOSPAMnightsong.com>oA Subject: Re: Open-source replacement for Digital Standard Runoff? 0 Message-ID: <7x7kghu3uu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  - shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes:eD > Is there an open-source functional equivalent for Digital Standard > Runoff available?r  5 I don't know if it's compatible but there's PCROFF bysB Col. G. L. Sicherman, a Usenet old-timer.  It's written in C and I< used it a lot in the early 90's.  I think it was written forC Aztec C and I had to hack it a little to make it work with Turbo C.c  ) Typing "pcroff.c" into Google found this:s  / http://202.96.171.118/program/C1/NOPR-34/PCRSRCt   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:46:42 +0000 (UTC)-, From: lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)W Subject: Re: OpenVMS7.2-1 and 7.3-1 and NFS (seeking SOME sort of file shareing) HELP!! . Message-ID: <aokj7i$1i3$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  } "DigiDemon" <digidemon@hotmail.com> writes in article <aok09n01o2g@enews3.newsguy.com> dated Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:23:48 -0600:o= >%TCPIP$DNFSMOUNT-E-MOUNTFAIL, error mounting _DNFS1:[000000]p" >-SYSTEM-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout  G A timeout error might mean your NFS server processes aren't running.  IaK think the relevant services are MOUNT, NFS, and PORTMAPPER.  Do a "ucx showhG serv" and see if they exist.  If not, use TCPIP$CONFIG to turn them on.t  J Decnet phase IV is easier to set up IMHO.  But it's not standard IP, so ifK there are routers between the 2 machines you have to make sure they supportw the right protocols for Decnet.    --klewis$mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:26:12 -0500c1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>s4 Subject: Re: Originator of detached process from DCL& Message-ID: <3DAE1FC4.E301513@fsi.net>   system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > ] > In article <3DACC9FE.7BEA1ED2@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > >Joshua Cope wrote:e > >>G > >> On Alpha V7.3-1, there's a new GETJPI code for the parent process:s > >>0 > >>   $ write sys$output f$getjpi("","CREATOR") > >>      20602D44 > >e > >Works on V7.3, also.  > >s > >Interesting bits: > >eH > >RUN/DETACHED - "CREATOR" points to the process where the RUN/DETACHED > >command was executed. > * > I believe that was its intended purpose. > ( > >SUBMIT - "CREATOR" points to the JBC. > >d5 > >Login at the console - "CREATOR" points to the JBCe >  > Yes? > @ > >TELNET to a system running Multinet - "CREATOR" points to the > >MULTINET_SERVER process.e >  > ... and it shouldn't be?  C Dunno - but it *IS* suspect, if you go back to another thread aboutnH enabling logins at boot time (JBC). If MULTINET_SERVER is doing $CREPRCsH when JBC is still not doing so, that could be a problem at boot-up time, IMO.  E That's why I mentioned that I don't have access to V7.3 or newer withe0 UCX or TCPware. I wanted to see how those do it.   -- c David J. Dachterac dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:26:59 -0500o1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e4 Subject: Re: Originator of detached process from DCL' Message-ID: <3DAE1FF3.65419B35@fsi.net>M   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3DACC9FE.7BEA1ED2@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:t > I > > RUN/DETACHED - "CREATOR" points to the process where the RUN/DETACHEDm > > command was executed.  > >C) > > SUBMIT - "CREATOR" points to the JBC.  > >u6 > > Login at the console - "CREATOR" points to the JBC > I > I would presume the same is true for Login from a normal terminal line.h  ? ...as would I; however, I didn't take the time to check it out.   A > > TELNET to a system running Multinet - "CREATOR" points to the  > > MULTINET_SERVER process.   That bothers me...   -- e David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/g   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:20:24 -0500v1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>t4 Subject: Re: Originator of detached process from DCL' Message-ID: <3DAE1E68.83CC1C1A@fsi.net>e   Alan Greig wrote:4 > 9 > On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:07:58 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"c  > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > @ > >TELNET to a system running Multinet - "CREATOR" points to the > >MULTINET_SERVER process.r > >sG > >I don't have access to a V7.3+ system running either TCPware or UCX.  > A >  Welcome to OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System, Version V7.3-1h >  > Username: censored > Password:lF >    Welcome to OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System, Version V7.3-1 on > node XXXXoA >     Last interactive login on Thursday,  3-OCT-2002 16:28:36.74hE >     Last non-interactive login on Thursday,  3-OCT-2002 11:22:04.74s6 > Setting up symbols for foreign command line usage...' > JAVA$FILENAME_CONTROLS now set to: -1e > $ tcpip sho vere > A >   Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.3 - ECO 1g6 >   on a AlphaStation 400 4/233 running OpenVMS V7.3-1 > + > $ write sys$output f$getjpi("","CREATOR") 
 > 0000010B, > $ pipe sho sys | search sys$input 0000010BH > 0000010B JOB_CONTROL     HIB      8    32343   0 00:00:29.63        55 > 79 > $a  G You didn't show it, so I'm assuming that you Telnetted into that box...r   -- s David J. Dachterar dba DJE SystemsM http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:33:53 -0500a1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 4 Subject: Re: Originator of detached process from DCL' Message-ID: <3DAE2191.41B46C19@fsi.net>i   Peter Weaver wrote:m >  > David J. Dachtera wrote: > >...A > > TELNET to a system running Multinet - "CREATOR" points to theM > > MULTINET_SERVER process. > > H > > I don't have access to a V7.3+ system running either TCPware or UCX. >  > $ netcu show ver7 > TCPware(R) V5.5-3 Copyright (c) 2001 Process Softwarer8 > OpenVMS version V7.3 booted on 4-MAY-2002 10:30:59.00,& > running on a AlphaServer 2100 5/250.0 > $ write sys$output "''f$getjpi("","creator")'"
 > 0000020B% > $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe 20bb6 > 0000020B JOB_CONTROL HIB 10 2928 0 00:00:04.29 58 78  E O.k. Now I *GOTTA* cross-post to vmsnet.networks.tcp-ip.multinet. Theo& Multinet behavior *REALLY* bothers me!  D Process Software folks: can you dig it? ...or do you need to see the earlier post in its entirety?a  H Why does a Telnet session to a system running Multinet show my process'sH CREATOR as MULTINET_SERVER and on another user's TCPware host his Telnet0 session was kicked-off by JBC? ...ditto for UCX?  # Again, the command to duplicate is:   , $ SHOW PROCESS/ID='F$GETJPI( 0, "CREATOR" )'   ...on OpenVMS V7.3 or later.   -- a David J. Dachterad dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:22:01 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>t- Subject: Re: OT: someone knows TrafficMagnet?e% Message-ID: <3DADAE49.80105@MMaz.com>l   Didier Morandi wrote:   0 >I just got this in my mailbox. Are they famous? >  r > I No infamous.  They charge to submit your site to search engines and then tC sell all of your details to practically every spammer on the net...e   Barryr   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:29:21 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r Subject: Re: PeopleSoft on VMS, Message-ID: <3DADCC1A.DFAFCDBE@videotron.ca>   Tony Scandora wrote:$ > In this case, what's in it for SAPD > or PeopleSoft?  Will a VMS port generate any more sales for them?   L Why do people buy SAP ? Because it is the best solution that offers featuresH not offered by competing products, or because it is currently the trendyL product and the pointy haired manager decided to go SAP because he read that SAP was very popular ?  L If a product is sold by its technical features and has competition that alsoG competes on technical features, then focusing on VMS may be a good ideasL because it will give that product a technical edge that will be unmatched byE competitors on other platforms: clustering, disaster tolerance, etc).r  L But if products compete solely on marketing and image and not on auqlity andM technical features, then a port to VMS wouldn't bring any additional revenus.s  K Right now, because VMS is not a mainstream OS due to lack of marketing, itshG only hopes are with softrware that exists only on VMS (dwindling) or in L applications where VMS's extra features are necessary and not up-to-snuff on other platforms.  M Having said this, getting SAP to go to VMS would be an incredible achievement:J for VMS. Not so much because of SAP going to VMS, but because, in order toM convince SAP to go to VMS, HP would have to prove with concrete and long termAJ actions and policies that VMS was not only a viable OS, bit one poised for5 growth with expanding market and agressive marketing.l  L In other words, if HP sets the environment such that it can convince some ofL the harderst to convince, then the others will follow because the stage will+ be set to invite everyone to the VMS party.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:48:01 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>' Subject: Re: PeopleSoft on VMS' Message-ID: <3DAE24E1.A874226D@fsi.net>a   Tony Scandora wrote: > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3DACCDC2.B97863C3@fsi.net...n > > Shane Smith wrote: > > >eM > > > I wonder if "it doesn't matter if anyone wants it, you have to do it tonN > > > give people some confidence in your support for the platform" would fly? > > >s  > > > Yeah, right, I'm dreaming. > > G > > A wise man once told me that even if only one customer asks for it,eK > > *THAT* is a market ... because he'll tell his colleagues, who will tell & > > their colleagues, who will tell... > M > That's how KO lost the company he started.  Some of the finest engineers inlJ > the business built outstanding products, and savy customers bought them.N > That worked for years, but as markets changed, Digital had no clue about how > to play in them.  D Then, I would view THAT as the weak point, not the approach. GettingE into a market is one thing. Staying current with it is something elset	 entirely.t  G > The cost of validating and supporting a port of a monster like R/3 orwK > PeopleSoft is huge, and neither DEC/Compaq/HP nor SAP/PeopleSoft has thatpM > much speculative cash to take a shot in the dark.  A demand, even if it canTJ > be created, must be verified before that kind of investment can be made,J > which could easily be a marketing deadlock between customers waiting for) > supply and vendors waiting for demand. b  D ...which pretty well sums it up with VMS. VMS is waiting for ISVs toF come on board so it can attract a market. The ISVs are waiting for the0 market to materialize before they come on board.  # %EXEC-F-DEADLOCK, deadlock detectedo -EXEC-F-SYSHALT, system halted  $ > In this case, what's in it for SAP > or PeopleSoft? h   Profit?t  4 > Will a VMS port generate any more sales for them?   F I sthe VMS market currently open to them? Self-answering question, no?  
 > Will theM > CFOs and CEOs who evaluate and authorize multi-million dollar projects care 0 > if they run on Solaris, HP-UX, Linux, or VMS?   E Rather depends on how well the sales critter does his/her job. If thefH benefits of VMS vs. the competition are highlighted effectively, I'd say? yes, the high-level folks WOULD care about minimizing downtime,VE maximizing security and data integrity, and all the other goodies VMSs brings to the table.   > If HP finances a VMS port,M > complete with validation and support, would the third party consultants whorJ > do a lot of the installations and configurations be as capable on VMS as > they are on Unix?-  E If the port is done right, the third-party critters shouldn't need to.E care *THAT* much about the underlying system - that's what folks liken you and me are here for.   -- n David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/v   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:36:05 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>l Subject: Re: PeopleSoft on VMS, Message-ID: <3DAE3003.69054F1A@videotron.ca>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:F > ...which pretty well sums it up with VMS. VMS is waiting for ISVs toH > come on board so it can attract a market. The ISVs are waiting for the2 > market to materialize before they come on board.  ' I think it is one step worse than that:"  H Many ISVs were told by Palmer and friends that VMS didn't have much of aJ future. There needs to be a clear, loud and unequivocal statement from theL owner of VMS, at the Carly Fiorina level to quelch once and for all Palmer'sJ edits. As long as HP just says it will continue the "plan of record" whichN matches more or less what Palmer had set out to do, then ISVs will continue to. see Palmer's long term plan being implemented.  K yet another reason why using the term "plan of record" simply means that HPoN intends to continue the very policies that have made so many ISVs dump VMS andM prevented so many from porting to VMS. (and told customers not to bank on VMSaK for very long). Stallard's memo certaintly gave fuel to that fire, even theiM revised one where the message was just that they would help those who want too* migrate to VMS. (can you spell Affinity ?)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:12:22 -0500"! From: Dan Moore <dmoore@sosu.edu>  Subject: Re: PeopleSoft on VMS( Message-ID: <3DAE46B6.DB7799A1@sosu.edu>   David,  _   I just talked to a guy at another university and was very pleased to hear that SCT/Banner ran,` on OpenVMS Alphas. They were not planning on Moving. I don't blame them. The product is appantly
 oracle based.r   Dang   David Webb wrote:   ^ > In article <3DA7792A.8E41CCA7@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > >David Webb wrote:M > >> Due to lack of support on VMS for the latest versions that was moving toiQ > >> Peoplesoft on Tru64. However due to other things happening in the UniversityDQ > >> that move has been put off for a while. It'll probably still end up on Tru64  > >>N > >Why would a company choose to migrate from VMS to Tru64 at this juncture in	 > >time ?d > > N > >Seems rather a waste to make the effort to port to another architecture you4 > >know will need another port in a couple of years. > >hM > >has PeopleSoft made any credible commitments to continue to make their newn7 > >releases available on Tru64 for any length of time ?e >hP > We've moved systems from VMS to Tru64 since the HP takeover - though they wereN > already in the pipeline. However we got some good deals on Alpha systems andM > it's seen as a stopgap for three years or so. After that it'll hopefully besM > easier to see where to go next. I think senior management are expecting thebP > next move to be either to a Microsoft OS or more probably Linux - if either ofO > those were really up to the job I'm sure thats where we would be heading now.e >tQ > They are more concerned with the Applications and the Oracle database than withhN > the underlying OS. Moving to Tru64 means they can move to the latest versionP > and get things webbased. After that it doesn't really matter for three years -@ > after all the VMS admin systems have been frozen at VMS 6.2 !!P > OK they would probably not be that happy if Oracle, peoplesoft and Banner wereL > to drop TRU64 for their next versions immediately they had ported but it's( > been factored in as a reasonable risk. > Q > I'd much much rather have stuck with VMS but the application support just isn'trP > there - they couldn't get both the application and database layers on the sameL > architecture and didn't want to end up with people having to know two OSs.P > (The irony is that they'll probably end up with having to train people on lots+ > of different Unixes in a few years time).  >d > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University      K -----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------pG    http://www.newsfeed.com       The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! M -----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 19:57:40 +0200u6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>0 Subject: Re: Question about f$getsyi and Itanium) Message-ID: <3DADA894.7020504@vajhoej.dk>a   JF Mezei wrote:r  N > Wouldn't it perhaps be logical to have it as "4" since it would then presentL > the opportunity for bits (if bit 0 is set, then vax, if bit 1 is set, then( > alpha, if bit 2 is set than IA64 etc).     Why ?o  8 Bit-masks is usefull when you can set more than one bit.   I doubt that apply here !u   :-)   P > However, at this point of time, wouldn't such a decision have been made a long$ > time ago and already implemented ?     Sounds very likely.y     Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 13:25:17 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e0 Subject: Re: Question about f$getsyi and Itanium3 Message-ID: <IAim7$Kq4Cjo@eisner.encompasserve.org>S  b In article <3DADA894.7020504@vajhoej.dk>, Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: > JF Mezei wrote:  > O >> Wouldn't it perhaps be logical to have it as "4" since it would then presentlM >> the opportunity for bits (if bit 0 is set, then vax, if bit 1 is set, thena) >> alpha, if bit 2 is set than IA64 etc).a >  >  > Why ?e > : > Bit-masks is usefull when you can set more than one bit. >  > I doubt that apply here !   F    Your not planning to mung together a dual CPU system with one AlphaB    and one IPF processor?  You just have to hack the VMS kernel to1    keep the backing stores separate for each CPU!   G    Somehow I don't think VMS engineering is gonna pull this one off form    us as a midnight hack.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:00:10 -0500l1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>r0 Subject: Re: Question about f$getsyi and Itanium' Message-ID: <3DAE27BA.8B5EF63F@fsi.net>m   Bob Koehler wrote: > d > In article <3DADA894.7020504@vajhoej.dk>, Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: > > JF Mezei wrote:n > >aQ > >> Wouldn't it perhaps be logical to have it as "4" since it would then presenttO > >> the opportunity for bits (if bit 0 is set, then vax, if bit 1 is set, theno+ > >> alpha, if bit 2 is set than IA64 etc).t > >g > >s	 > > Why ?  > > < > > Bit-masks is usefull when you can set more than one bit. > >  > > I doubt that apply here !e > H >    Your not planning to mung together a dual CPU system with one AlphaD >    and one IPF processor?  You just have to hack the VMS kernel to3 >    keep the backing stores separate for each CPU!; > I >    Somehow I don't think VMS engineering is gonna pull this one off for  >    us as a midnight hack.s  ( No, but I'd tend to look at it this way:   Bit 0 = 32-bit CPU Bit 1 = 64-bit CPU  Bit 2 = Intel (or non-"DEC" CPU)  H Thus, if ARCH_TYPE returned 1, then the VMS is running on a 32-bit "DEC"D CPU (implies VAX) while if ARCH_TYPE returned 2, VMS is running on aG 64-bit "DEC" CPU (implies APF - Alpha Processor Family). In both cases,L' bit 2 is clear, indicating a "DEC" CPU.1  H If ARCH_TYPE returned 6, one might assume that VMS was running on a IA64A while if it returned 5, one might assume VMS was running on IA32.m  D NAAAAHHHH... Stranger things have happened, but that's stretching it, *WWWWAAAAYYYY* too far, even for a DJD post!   -- n David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsv http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 14:07:41 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)' Subject: Re: singular and plural of VAXh< Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0210161307.c08ee3d@posting.google.com>  d "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message news:<CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEIDFOAA.tom@kednos.com>...5 > Actually the word representing the Trademark shouldo= > be (or be used as) an adjective. e.g. Scott (brand) towels,p > VAX system, not a noun.V  @ Why must it be an adjective? There are plenty of brands that are nouns.  	 Imagine: e  F Soda brands: Dr. Pepper soda, Coca-cola soda, Pepsi soda, Mountain Dew soda, 7up soda, ...e  C Cars: It's a Chevrolet car. It's a Lexus car. It's a Honda car. ...   B Phone companies: Verizon phone company. AT&T phone company. Sprint	 Phone co.:  	 Hmmmmmm. e   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. FeldmanA   >  > >-----Original Message-----.* > >From: John Santos [mailto:JOHN@egh.com]) > >Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 8:54 PMn > >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com* > >Subject: Re: singular and plural of VAX > >  > >t* > >On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Bob Knowles wrote: > >f > >> Alan E. Feldman wrote:rM > >> > Hey, another plural of VAX is "VAX systems". That's what the docs say,eF > >> > I believe. And no one can say it's wrong! Well, one can say it, > >> > but.... > >> > >> <historical_note>? > >> And the docs say it because there was a directive from thec >  Digital (at theN > >> time) legal folks to the effect that a trademark was easier to protect if3 > >> the owner never used it as a stand-alone noun.b > >> </historical_note>e > >> --h > >> bob.know1es@hp.comt* > >> (non-spammers should make the 1 an L) > >sA > >I remember once seeing a letter to the editor in some computerIK > >magazine, possibly IEEE Computer, from the head counsel for MacDonald's. H > >He said that the magazine had recently run an ad for itself (or maybeH > >for a sister publication) that compared the cost of a subscription toG > >the cost of so many Big Macs and a small Coke.  Apparently there wasaG > >a picture or drawing of something that resembled the big yellow "M".h > > I > >The lawyer said the golden arches logo was a trademark of McDogfood's,uD > >as was the name Big Mac, and that they did not serve small cokes,D > >only medium and large, and that the correct plural of Big Mac wasC > >not "Big Macs", but "Big Mac hamburger sandwiches", and to ceasec# > >and desist from running the ads.3 > >AD > >The editor's reply was "Have it your way, Mr. Smith".  (For thoseC > >not up on U.S. advertising trivia, this was Burger Kings' slogan  > >at the time.) > >wC > >(I guess since he wasn't Coca Cola's lawyer, he didn't object tokA > >the use of "Coke", which by the way is a counterexample to thee/ > >"don't use it as a standalone noun" theory.)o > >t > >--S > >John Santos > >e > >---) > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. = > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). C > >Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002e > >W > ---p( > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.< > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B > Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:59:36 GMT / From: "Jeff Goodwin" <jgoodwin@maine.rrr-r.com>:/ Subject: Re: stuck process after v7.3-1 upgrade38 Message-ID: <cOhr9.18043$2s.805890@twister.maine.rr.com>  I As far as systems and firmware versions are concerned, we've been runningeE V7.3-1 on the following systems for over a month now and haven't seenf anything like this:b   4 XP900 - V6.2/V6.3a 1 AS 800 - V5.8l 1 DEC 3000 - V7.0s    G "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@SignalTreeSolutions.com> wrote in messagen7 news:7f15589f.0210152036.3ba33555@posting.google.com...sH > I'm seeing a readily reproducible issue that showed up after upgradingH > from v7.3 to 7.3-1 where a process consumes a lot of CPU, about 75% in [snip]B > In addition to my DPW 500au, others report identical behavior onA > AlphaServer 400 and AlphaServer 800; I don't think any of thesea1 > systems is a candidate for the newest firmware.u [snip]   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 20:14:31 -0700/ From: chris@applied-synergy.com (Chris Scheers)m Subject: Re: Tape Copy?:= Message-ID: <754a27c1.0210161914.3d30f731@posting.google.com>0  Y briggs@encompasserve.org wrote in message news:<bLVHAZl9A5QW@eisner.encompasserve.org>.../  < > 3.  Mount both tape volumes /FOREIGN /BLOCK=65535 and then > & > 	$ COPY /LOG source-tape: dest-tape:& > 	$ COPY /LOG source-tape: dest-tape:& > 	$ COPY /LOG source-tape: dest-tape:& > 	$ COPY /LOG source-tape: dest-tape:& > 	$ COPY /LOG source-tape: dest-tape:" > 	until you get a zero block copy > ! > 	You should see a pattern like:  > 4 > 	~3 records copied (header records for save set 1)) > 	n records copied (save set 1 contents)r5 > 	~3 records copied (trailer records for save set 1)V4 > 	~3 records copied (header records for save set 2)) > 	n records copied (save set 2 contents)h5 > 	~3 records copied (trailer records for save set 2)b > 	...< > 	0 records copied (back-to-back tape marks indicating EOV)  sA There is an interesting gotcha involved with this for the generali case.r  F On a labeled tape, each logical file is actually three physical files:D header, data, and trailer.  The data file can legally be 0 records. E This can result in back to back tape marks in the middle of the tape.e  B A true EOV occurs when there is an extra tape mark after a trailer file.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:33:49 +0930o/ From: Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au>r9 Subject: Re: TCPIP, sharing sockets via $QIO (fixed yet?)-3 Message-ID: <aoko59$3e4$1@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au>m  	 Thankyou.   H I have also received this same information from another reliable source F (along with an explanation as to why it didn't quite make it into the  previous releases).i   Mark Boyes wrote:a >  >  > Mark Daniel wrote: >  >>H >> I have been watching the TCP/IP releases and ECOs since but have not D >> been able to find any reference to this issue.  Have I missed it? >> >> TIA.H >> > 1 > The fix should be in V5.1 ECO 5 and V5.3 ECO 1.n >  > +Mark+   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 19:53:26 GMTi5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>o Subject: Re: The Good CEOd0 Message-ID: <Wsjr9.1$at2.96351@news.cpqcorp.net>   Bill Todd wrote in message ... >t5 >"David Mathog" <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message & >news:aok18i$d8h$1@naig.caltech.edu...B >> Here is an interesting little article describing "the Good CEO" >>D >> http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/funds/stephenschurr/10047126.html > K >Thanks - good read.  Reminds me of KO (and very much the antithesis of hish >successors).. >u  L Actually Ken suffered from one of the mentioned problems - confusing dissentE with disloyalty.  Had Ken trusted some people who he drove out of thezJ company, DEC would probably still been around today.  He didn't understandH that while they were ambitous people, with their own ideas - but most ofI them would have taken a bullet for him.  Instead, he got the knife in the . back from those who he shouldn't have trusted.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 19:54:57 +0200.8 From: Arne =?windows-1252?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>7 Subject: Re: Unix file descriptors and VMS I/O channels ) Message-ID: <3DADA7F1.5090604@vajhoej.dk>    Johan Nilsson wrote:  = > Most of the stuff is pretty much straightforward except for H > multicasting (where I must use sendto/recvfrom and their equivalents),F > but when I got a glimpse of the parameters needed to SYS$OPEN a fileF > under VMS I got scared ;) - hence the question on just being able toE > UNIX-style open the file - just specifying read and/or write accessh2 > and binary/text mode ... not all that RMS stuff. > H > I guess I need to check the docs on the RMS stuff, but I've got a needF > to "get going quickly" on this one. If I can't get the I/O channel -8 > are there any pointers to simple introductions to RMS?  . Find a piece of code that uses RMS and QIO and use that as a basis.   Many such exampels exist.n   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 13:32:15 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)n7 Subject: Re: Unix file descriptors and VMS I/O channelss3 Message-ID: <7ccL4JESyBJQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>I    Johan Nilsson wrote:e > Hi,o > D > programming question: Is it possible to get the underlying VMS I/OG > channel no from an UNIX style file descriptor? I'd like to be able to(C > use open() to get valid file descriptor, and then use QIO for I/Ou > operations on these files.  C    Are you only interested in the channel numbers for sockets?  Thec@    socket number returned by Multinet's native interfaces is theD    VMS channel (it even says so in the documentation).  UCX provides.    decc$get_sdc which returns the VMS channel.   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 19:27:43 -0700/ From: chris@applied-synergy.com (Chris Scheers)s& Subject: Re: VMS 5.3 disk installation= Message-ID: <754a27c1.0210161827.5ad09d43@posting.google.com>D  V "John" <cmiinkNOSPAM@msn.com> wrote in message news:<e0i9SzFdCHA.1748@cpimsnntpa03>...N > I have a VAX 3200 with VMS 5.3 . My knowledge on Unix, VAX 3200's and VMS isM > very lacking. I am trying to change the store drive from a Seagate ST12550N  > (2 GB) to a ST15150N (4 GB).K > When formatting I get options Node, logical unit and INTERLEAVE (0-7).  I M > don't know what Interleave is, so I chose zero (0), and the formatting went2L > OK. When bringing up the system and initializing the new drive I get errorN > (INIT-F-Cluster, unsuitable cluster factor).  Can anyone help configure thisL > drive into the system?  I don't  know if this drive is suitable, or how toA > change the cluster size.  I would appreciate any help or input.i > Thanks.. John Pittmana > e-mail   cmiinkNOSPAM@msn.comu  B Well, the VAXstation 3200 is a Q-bus machine and does not directlyF support SCSI drives.  Since you are using SCSI drives, you must have aC Q-bus SCSI controller. The manufacturer, model number, and firmware - version of this controller would be helpfull.-  > Once you boot up VMS, do the SCSI drives show up as DU drives?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:19:49 -0400t' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>D= Subject: RE: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channeleT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660A97@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Dean,   H >>>Between this and some of the other complaints, our staff have already decided to skip 7.3-1.<<<I  F The fact that this issue with one specific config (old cluster adapterF on new system) slipped through is definitely not a good thing, but oneA can hardly paint the entire release based on one issue like this.n  D Note - If you do not have a business reason for upgrading (e.g. takeG advantage of new features, better performance, improved something etc),nD and your current version is meeting your requirements, then you (andA others) should take their time to upgrade at your own leisure.=20   / This is true of any OS release on any platform.-   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant: Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicesc Voice: 613-592-4660p Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom+   (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)n       -----Original Message-----/ From: Dean Woodward [mailto:deanw@rdrop.com]=20o Sent: October 16, 2002 12:46 PMn To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn= Subject: Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel      Alan Greig wrote: I > But I find it close to impossible to believe that all Memory Channel=20fJ > support is broken in 7.3-1 on DS20 and ES4x class systems. Can anyone=20F > else confirm this? If it really leaked out of the door that badly=20I > broken I'd have to advise that 7.3-1 should be considered unsuitable=20a! > for any production application.s  H Between this and some of the other complaints, our staff have already=20 decided to skip 7.3-1.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:41:09 -0400l& From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>= Subject: Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel68 Message-ID: <ohcrqu844gtin7k6egb284a859p6occfl6@4ax.com>  D On 16 Oct 2002 12:27:47 -0600, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:  B >	I see 7.3-1 as probably the most stable rev to come out in quite? >	some time.  The number of ECOs for 7.3-1 is surprisingly low.u  D Of course, it's only been generally available for a few weeks!   ;<)I -------------------------------------------------------------------------sI David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot com I Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)tI -------------------------------------------------------------------------/   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 13:51:58 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)0= Subject: Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel:3 Message-ID: <9zABjx+JHzkt@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  a In article <ohcrqu844gtin7k6egb284a859p6occfl6@4ax.com>, David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> writes:hF > On 16 Oct 2002 12:27:47 -0600, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) > wrote: > C >>	I see 7.3-1 as probably the most stable rev to come out in quite1@ >>	some time.  The number of ECOs for 7.3-1 is surprisingly low. > F > Of course, it's only been generally available for a few weeks!   ;<)  F 	Right.  I'll cut and paste that statement 6 months from now also  B^)   				Robs   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 19:23:24 GMTe5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>r= Subject: Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel 2 Message-ID: <M0jr9.35$0o2.673844@news.cpqcorp.net>  H Frankly, I recommend V7.3-1.  Especially if you have a large SMP system,L with heavy IO loads, or high MP synch overhead.  The vast majority of peopleA so far have been very pleased with the stability and performance.i  J FWIW - we know what the MC problem is, and are testing a fix.  The problemD happened due to the distributed interrupt code that was added for IOK performance.  We are evaluating why this failure slipped through the crackse% to prevent this from happening again.h      > Dean Woodward wrote in message <3DAD97AF.8070900@rdrop.com>... >Alan Greig wrote:G >> But I find it close to impossible to believe that all Memory Channel H >> support is broken in 7.3-1 on DS20 and ES4x class systems. Can anyoneD >> else confirm this? If it really leaked out of the door that badlyG >> broken I'd have to advise that 7.3-1 should be considered unsuitableB" >> for any production application. >EF >Between this and some of the other complaints, our staff have already >decided to skip 7.3-1.t >o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:58:24 GMTn. From: "Tom Simpson" <simpsont@attbi.com.fubar>= Subject: Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channelE- Message-ID: <QWnr9.71145$rz6.12413@sccrnsc02>o  D So what is the current recommended cluster adapter for ES4x systems?  D We have heavy RMS I/O and lock traffic so the thought was that 7.3-1G had a lot of improvements to offer in that area.  We also need at leastJC VMS 7.3 to use a new SDLT tape drive via a fiber channel interface.oG 7.3-1 seemed like a logical choice.  All of my past experience with VMS-J lead me to believe that the -1 releases were always the best ones to start with.p  J I certainly will be a lot more skeptical in the future...  As I said in myE initial post, the error easy to re-create.  Install 7.3-1 with memoryc channel9J on an ES40 and within the first 12 lines of console output during the bootH you'll see the error message that MCAn can not be initialized and you'll& never see another node in the cluster.   Regards, TomA  2 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660A97@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. .. Dean,   H >>>Between this and some of the other complaints, our staff have already decided to skip 7.3-1.<<<T  F The fact that this issue with one specific config (old cluster adapterF on new system) slipped through is definitely not a good thing, but oneA can hardly paint the entire release based on one issue like this.o  D Note - If you do not have a business reason for upgrading (e.g. takeG advantage of new features, better performance, improved something etc), D and your current version is meeting your requirements, then you (and> others) should take their time to upgrade at your own leisure.  / This is true of any OS release on any platform.    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantt Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicesp Voice: 613-592-4660I Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom+   (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)X       -----Original Message-----, From: Dean Woodward [mailto:deanw@rdrop.com] Sent: October 16, 2002 12:46 PMl To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComT= Subject: Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel      Alan Greig wrote:nF > But I find it close to impossible to believe that all Memory ChannelG > support is broken in 7.3-1 on DS20 and ES4x class systems. Can anyonecC > else confirm this? If it really leaked out of the door that badlycF > broken I'd have to advise that 7.3-1 should be considered unsuitable! > for any production application.   E Between this and some of the other complaints, our staff have alreadyR decided to skip 7.3-1.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:13:46 GMTB+ From: Ryan Moore <rmoore@rmoore.dyndns.org> = Subject: Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channelt< Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.31.0210161904450.8040-100000@jaipur>  C I attended the HPETS session entitled something like "Comparing the:I performance of different cluster interconnects".  The presenter gave somee interesting data.2  G The moral of the session is that the new "recommended" high performance:J interconnect will be the new gigabit ethernet adapters that are coming outH in a couple months.  I don't remember what the part number will be.  ButI they *aren't* the ones that are currently available.  Those don't performU( any better than the DE500 ethernet card.  G For heavy locking traffic, it's clear from the data that the "interrupt G collalescing" feature should be disabled because it adds latency to thenH SCS messages.  Although the feature seemed more useful if there was lotsH of MSCP serving going on.  But that probably doesn't apply when you have FC.   B One of the better performers was the DE500 etherner card using 100 megabit.I However, the DE602 ard had much worse performance.  He didn't have any MCuA data because he says his MC cards died.  Maybe it was a sign.  :)t  F Oh, and if you use an FC tape, make sure to get an "NSR" instead of an/ "MDR" because the MDRs are end-of-life already.s  ' On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Tom Simpson wrote:R  F > So what is the current recommended cluster adapter for ES4x systems? >oF > We have heavy RMS I/O and lock traffic so the thought was that 7.3-1I > had a lot of improvements to offer in that area.  We also need at least E > VMS 7.3 to use a new SDLT tape drive via a fiber channel interface.wI > 7.3-1 seemed like a logical choice.  All of my past experience with VMS.L > lead me to believe that the -1 releases were always the best ones to start > with.0 > L > I certainly will be a lot more skeptical in the future...  As I said in myG > initial post, the error easy to re-create.  Install 7.3-1 with memoryw	 > channelIL > on an ES40 and within the first 12 lines of console output during the bootJ > you'll see the error message that MCAn can not be initialized and you'll( > never see another node in the cluster. >.
 > Regards, > Tom- >-4 > "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageN > news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660A97@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. > .. > Dean,s >-J > >>>Between this and some of the other complaints, our staff have already > decided to skip 7.3-1.<<<P >lH > The fact that this issue with one specific config (old cluster adapterH > on new system) slipped through is definitely not a good thing, but oneC > can hardly paint the entire release based on one issue like this.d > F > Note - If you do not have a business reason for upgrading (e.g. takeI > advantage of new features, better performance, improved something etc),hF > and your current version is meeting your requirements, then you (and@ > others) should take their time to upgrade at your own leisure. >i1 > This is true of any OS release on any platform.o >r
 > Regards, >s > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant  > Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.# > Consulting & Integration Servicesq > Voice: 613-592-4660t > Fax   : 613-591-4477 > Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom- >   (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)n >e >O >u > -----Original Message-----. > From: Dean Woodward [mailto:deanw@rdrop.com]! > Sent: October 16, 2002 12:46 PMo > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ? > Subject: Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channels >  >s > Alan Greig wrote:oH > > But I find it close to impossible to believe that all Memory ChannelI > > support is broken in 7.3-1 on DS20 and ES4x class systems. Can anyoneoE > > else confirm this? If it really leaked out of the door that badlyaH > > broken I'd have to advise that 7.3-1 should be considered unsuitable# > > for any production application.n >hG > Between this and some of the other complaints, our staff have alreadyh > decided to skip 7.3-1. >t >o >r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:39:35 -0400p' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> = Subject: RE: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channeleT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660A9A@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Tom,  & An unofficial update for comp.os.vms -  E "OpenVMS Engineering is aware of this OpenVMS V7.3-1 specific problemCE and is actively working to resolve the issue. The software problem isi? related to the handling of memory channel cluster interfaces on B ES40/ES45/DS20E AlphaServers only. Other AlphaServer systems usingB OpenVMS V7.3-1 with memory channel interfaces are not impacted.=20  G A fix is in the works and a maintenance kit should be available shortlyiG via official support channels. Pre-release patch images to allow use ofiB MC on ES40, ES45, DS20E under VMS V7.3-1 may also be obtained thruB Customer Support Center channels, for time-critical V7.3-1 upgrade
 customers.  F A formal patch kit will also be made available on the external OpenVMSG patch site at: http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/.new/openvms.shtmlh "    Regardsw  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanta Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicesh Voice: 613-592-4660t Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)o     -----Original Message-----6 From: Tom Simpson [mailto:simpsont@attbi.com.fubar]=20 Sent: October 16, 2002 8:58 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com = Subject: Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channela    D So what is the current recommended cluster adapter for ES4x systems?  H We have heavy RMS I/O and lock traffic so the thought was that 7.3-1 hadG a lot of improvements to offer in that area.  We also need at least VMS E 7.3 to use a new SDLT tape drive via a fiber channel interface. 7.3-1zF seemed like a logical choice.  All of my past experience with VMS leadE me to believe that the -1 releases were always the best ones to start  with.l  G I certainly will be a lot more skeptical in the future...  As I said in H my initial post, the error easy to re-create.  Install 7.3-1 with memoryB channel on an ES40 and within the first 12 lines of console outputA during the boot you'll see the error message that MCAn can not be = initialized and you'll never see another node in the cluster.i   Regards, Tomf  2 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageH news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660A97@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp. net. .e Dean,i  H >>>Between this and some of the other complaints, our staff have already decided to skip 7.3-1.<<<a  F The fact that this issue with one specific config (old cluster adapterF on new system) slipped through is definitely not a good thing, but oneA can hardly paint the entire release based on one issue like this.d  D Note - If you do not have a business reason for upgrading (e.g. takeG advantage of new features, better performance, improved something etc),rD and your current version is meeting your requirements, then you (and> others) should take their time to upgrade at your own leisure.  / This is true of any OS release on any platform.-   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicesl Voice: 613-592-4660- Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom+   (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)t       -----Original Message-----, From: Dean Woodward [mailto:deanw@rdrop.com] Sent: October 16, 2002 12:46 PMe To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come= Subject: Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channelh     Alan Greig wrote:tI > But I find it close to impossible to believe that all Memory Channel=20dJ > support is broken in 7.3-1 on DS20 and ES4x class systems. Can anyone=20F > else confirm this? If it really leaked out of the door that badly=20I > broken I'd have to advise that 7.3-1 should be considered unsuitable=20e! > for any production application.   E Between this and some of the other complaints, our staff have alreadyn decided to skip 7.3-1.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:00:15 -0400n' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> = Subject: RE: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel(T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660A9B@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Tom,  H >>> So what is the current recommended cluster adapter for ES4x systems? <<<l  F If not already done, I would recommend getting your call escalated viaF Customer Services and formally request the patch that is in the works.  G With respect to VMS V7.3-1, here is a quote from an earlier thread here 
 on c.o.v.:7 "This past weekend we upgraded from VMS 7.2-1 to 7.3-1.   A ..Some spot checking on nightly processing indicated that we have H improved performance by about 20% (clock time). My boss was pleased withF the information especially since we did nothing but upgrade to get the0 improvements (that is not spending any money :)"     Regardsi  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicest Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)>       -----Original Message-----6 From: Tom Simpson [mailto:simpsont@attbi.com.fubar]=20 Sent: October 16, 2002 8:58 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh= Subject: Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channelk    D So what is the current recommended cluster adapter for ES4x systems?  H We have heavy RMS I/O and lock traffic so the thought was that 7.3-1 hadG a lot of improvements to offer in that area.  We also need at least VMSrE 7.3 to use a new SDLT tape drive via a fiber channel interface. 7.3-1cF seemed like a logical choice.  All of my past experience with VMS leadE me to believe that the -1 releases were always the best ones to startf with.e  G I certainly will be a lot more skeptical in the future...  As I said ineH my initial post, the error easy to re-create.  Install 7.3-1 with memoryB channel on an ES40 and within the first 12 lines of console outputA during the boot you'll see the error message that MCAn can not bew= initialized and you'll never see another node in the cluster.    Regards, Tomh  2 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageH news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660A97@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp. net. .t Dean,   H >>>Between this and some of the other complaints, our staff have already decided to skip 7.3-1.<<<o  F The fact that this issue with one specific config (old cluster adapterF on new system) slipped through is definitely not a good thing, but oneA can hardly paint the entire release based on one issue like this.h  D Note - If you do not have a business reason for upgrading (e.g. takeG advantage of new features, better performance, improved something etc), D and your current version is meeting your requirements, then you (and> others) should take their time to upgrade at your own leisure.  / This is true of any OS release on any platform.a   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantn Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Services- Voice: 613-592-4660f Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom+   (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)        -----Original Message-----, From: Dean Woodward [mailto:deanw@rdrop.com] Sent: October 16, 2002 12:46 PM- To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma= Subject: Re: VMS 7.3-1 breaks clustering using memory channel?     Alan Greig wrote:jI > But I find it close to impossible to believe that all Memory Channel=209J > support is broken in 7.3-1 on DS20 and ES4x class systems. Can anyone=20F > else confirm this? If it really leaked out of the door that badly=20I > broken I'd have to advise that 7.3-1 should be considered unsuitable=20s! > for any production application.   E Between this and some of the other complaints, our staff have alreadya decided to skip 7.3-1.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:19:12 GMT 9 From: Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com>r@ Subject: Re: VMS MAIL: COMPRESS _increases_ the size of the file/ Message-ID: <3DADAB49.4574B699@eps.zko.dec.com>e   Phillip Helbig wrote:u  J > I was doing some mail housekeeping and COMPRESSed several mail files.  II > notice that with big files, COMPRESS brings the size down (that's why II
 > use it),  E Interestingly, when i do VMSmail file housekeeping I often GROW files  deliberatly,L or at least not shrink them. I have 3 FDL files for mail: Small=200 blocks?, Medium=2000,L Large=20,000 blocks and select one based on the currernt size. The though is that if a mailF file grew large once, even if you since cleaned up, it will grow large again. So be prepared.  < > but with smaller files, sometimes (perhaps usually or even4 > always) the size goes up.  Here are some examples: >s! > FOO.MAI;1                 40/51 ! > FOO.OLD;1                 36/51o  G Big whoopy doo. 50 blocks huh? You most have a lot of time and very few  block to spare?!F Ok, mostly teasing. It's not the blocks, it's the understanding right?  L Well, First of all the EOF VBN in an indexed file is officially meaningless. Only ALQ counts.I As for what is actually used in that ALloCated space, used ANAL/RMS/STAT,  not the EOF.  ! > BAR.MAI;1                 57/685! > BAR.OLD;1                 45/51?   Ok, here you 'lose' 17 blocks.  C First of all, they are only lost if this file wil never receive newh	 messages.4H Otherwise they may be ready to be used within the file for new messages.  F Secondly 'clearly' the cluster size on the target disk is 'clearly' 17 blocks.tA Mail compresses through convert by underallocating the target andaE letting it grow to the size needed. Well, when RMS needs to extend an I indexed file, it will force the extension to start at a cluster boundary.aJ With a first VBN at 4, a bucket size 5 and a cluster size of 17, the thirdE bucket could be at vbn 14 but will be at vbn 18. So there's 4 block'sk wasted.nF In the next cluster you will lose 2 blocks. A larger, better divisable cluster'G size would fix this, and a smaller bucket size coudl fix this. But more 
 importanlyD a reasonable pre-allocation or extention would avoid it alltogether!  J The story above more or less assumes that  the BAR.OLD file was originallyL created on a disk with a different cluster size, or pre-allocated correctly, and I'msE sure there are a few more scenarios (involving FDL files) to consider    >eE > (In case it's not clear, I mean MAIL> COMPRESS, which I think callsn > CONVERT/RECLAIM).s   Try MAIL> HELPC You'll see that PURGE/RECLAIM really trigger CONVERT/RECLAIM, which I works within the file. and COMPRESS really triggers a plain convert whciht creates a fresh file.p   hth, hein.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:03:08 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> D Subject: Re: VMS versions (was: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!), Message-ID: <3DADE20E.5A8FAC18@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:C >    I always thought separating the code base was the one big dumbcE >    thing DEC did during the port.  I'm sure glad Compaq/HP is using.% >    one code base for Alpha and IPF.e  	 Question:o  / Will they have same code base for drivers too ?    ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 16:09:51 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)nD Subject: Re: VMS versions (was: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!)3 Message-ID: <9t4rU+9FbFbF@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  \ In article <3DADCD34.9F058340@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  P > While I understand (but disagree) with VAX not always catching up, since AlphaO > and IA64 are supposed to be sharing code bases (is that still true ?) why notoO > release V8.0 on Alpha ? Wouldn't that be a good test of the shared code-basesaA > ? (folks going to an *.0 release know to expect a few hitches).O  C   Who would want a "new release" on Alpha with some of the featureseC   missing?  8.0 on IPF is a subset of 7.3 (or so) on Alpha.  8.1 ish6   a larger subset.  8.2 ships for VAX, Alpha, and IPF.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:34:03 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>rD Subject: Re: VMS versions (was: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!), Message-ID: <3DADCD34.9F058340@videotron.ca>   Phillip Helbig wrote:eI > features, keeping in line with the recent trend of not bringing all newk@ > features to all platforms (at least not right away).  With theI > VAX-to-ALPHA transition, the initial ALPHA "releases" had, IIRC, no newzF > features.  (Wasn't ALPHA 0.x functionally equivalent to VAX 5.5-2 or > whatever?)  G The first alpha version was "behind" VAX (no new batch queue system foru? instance).  It had to catch up to the mainstream version (VAX).s  F Here, it seesm to be the opposite: IA64 will have new features and the( mainstream ALPHA will have to catch up.   N While I understand (but disagree) with VAX not always catching up, since AlphaM and IA64 are supposed to be sharing code bases (is that still true ?) why notmM release V8.0 on Alpha ? Wouldn't that be a good test of the shared code-basess? ? (folks going to an *.0 release know to expect a few hitches).e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:49:25 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>oD Subject: Re: VMS versions (was: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!)B Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021016164731.0399c988@raptor.psccos.com>  ' At 02:34 PM 10/16/2002, JF Mezei wrote:  >Phillip Helbig wrote:K > > features, keeping in line with the recent trend of not bringing all newoB > > features to all platforms (at least not right away).  With theK > > VAX-to-ALPHA transition, the initial ALPHA "releases" had, IIRC, no new.H > > features.  (Wasn't ALPHA 0.x functionally equivalent to VAX 5.5-2 or > > whatever?) > H >The first alpha version was "behind" VAX (no new batch queue system for@ >instance).  It had to catch up to the mainstream version (VAX). >-G >Here, it seesm to be the opposite: IA64 will have new features and the1( >mainstream ALPHA will have to catch up.  E Actually, from all indications last week at CETS, VAX, Alpha and IA64 H will be in lockstep.  The only reason you'll see a 8.0/8.1 on IA64 is toH increase functionality for IA64 (i.e., 8.0 will be really stripped down,< 8.1 adds more stuff to get up to where Alpha is today, etc).   ------J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+J | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |J | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |J | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |J | http://www.process.com        |                                        |J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 17:39:13 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)-D Subject: Re: VMS versions (was: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!)3 Message-ID: <JRaCkdQdq8L$@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  c In article <fzRh3$tJPkXv@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:e  C >    I always thought separating the code base was the one big dumb E >    thing DEC did during the port.  I'm sure glad Compaq/HP is using$% >    one code base for Alpha and IPF.$  F Alpha was different, because that required a jump to a 64-bit machine.   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Oct 2002 16:15:01 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) D Subject: Re: VMS versions (was: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!)3 Message-ID: <fzRh3$tJPkXv@eisner.encompasserve.org>   w In article <01KNQRFX4AVY9QWKOO@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:  > E > I suspect the difference is that VMS 8.0 will actually include new eJ > features, keeping in line with the recent trend of not bringing all new @ > features to all platforms (at least not right away).  With theI > VAX-to-ALPHA transition, the initial ALPHA "releases" had, IIRC, no newiG > features.  (Wasn't ALPHA 0.x functionally equivalent to VAX 5.5-2 or l > whatever?)  F    IIRC the original Alpha code was based on a snapshot of VAX VMS 5.2H    By the time Alpha VMS 1.0 shipped some (but not all) of the features     through 5.4 were added in.-  A    I always thought separating the code base was the one big dumbaC    thing DEC did during the port.  I'm sure glad Compaq/HP is using #    one code base for Alpha and IPF.g   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:18:55 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger), Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!K Message-ID: <rdeininger-1610022118550001@1cust165.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>a  B In article <s_6dnbWhieRYFDCgXTWcoQ@News.GigaNews.Com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:h    I >The suggestion (which I agree with) seems to be that things that are not H >conventional VMS releases are being called releases (regardless of whatJ >numbers they are given).  The slide previously mentioned pointedly calledI >8.2 a *production quality* release, which leaves the definite impression:G >that 8.0 and 8.1 are something less.  Their timing does as well:  doesiA >anyone really believe that a 'production quality' release in anydM >currently-understood sense of the term as it applies to VMS will be shippingeG >less than 6 months after a minimal VMS system first manages to boot onrJ >Itanic without crashing immediately - leaving aside the decidedly minimalC >nature of its contents compared with what VMS normally ships with?.  F I don't think anyone at HP has said that 8.0 or 8.1 will be productionE quality releases.  Neither is intended for wide distribution, nor foroD production deployment.  I believe both will have limited-term formalH support for a limited number of customers.  In that situation, a releaseI needs to be assigned formal versioning if only for tracking and logisticst	 purposes.   E AFAIK, the 8.2 release is the target for the first "real" VMS on IPF.-  H There has to be a first release on any new platform.  If it is held backD until it reaches feature-parity with the old platform, the 3rd-party& developers will have to wait too long.  C I think the analogy with VMS V1.0 and V1.5 on alpha is a good one. tD Everyone understood that those were not in the same class as the VAX releases of the era.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:27:44 -0400n( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!, Message-ID: <3DAE1210.8040406@tsoft-inc.com>   Bill Todd wrote:    J > The suggestion (which I agree with) seems to be that things that are notI > conventional VMS releases are being called releases (regardless of what K > numbers they are given).  The slide previously mentioned pointedly called J > 8.2 a *production quality* release, which leaves the definite impressionH > that 8.0 and 8.1 are something less.  Their timing does as well:  doesB > anyone really believe that a 'production quality' release in anyN > currently-understood sense of the term as it applies to VMS will be shippingH > less than 6 months after a minimal VMS system first manages to boot onK > Itanic without crashing immediately - leaving aside the decidedly minimal D > nature of its contents compared with what VMS normally ships with? > I > HP seems to be adopting the unfortunate Microsoft habit of giving laterrM > field-test packages release numbers, with the 'SP1' update constituting thelM > first appearance of anything like a reliable (well, in the Microsoft sense)eI > product.  That does not strike me as a good sign, especially given thatnK > quality has up until now been one of the foremost differentiators for VMSnJ > and the 'release' of field-test-quality software seems likely to tarnish! > that image in very short order.r    M I agree with all you say.  However, due to the hardware change, there is the 8M need for some advance usage of VMS prior to the release of a 'real' version. aN Such usage would be porting/development of software.  Maybe they're trying to O have something between a beta release and a production release.  To some, such  K would still be a beta release.  Some developers might balk at using a beta hO version, but would use a pre-production version.  And so we play the name game.    Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:30:09 -0400b( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!* Message-ID: <3DAE12A1.80001@tsoft-inc.com>   Main, Kerry wrote:   > Bill,s >  > Re: release numbers .. > I > If I recall, VMS V7.0 was supported, but not recommended for productionhJ > environments. It was the first 64bit release and again, if memory servesJ > me right, the official recommendation for production use was "wait until > V7.1".  L And while being good advice, as many found out to their sorrow, even better - advice would have been to wait for V7.2.  :-)e  J I for one wouldn't bet much of real value on using V8.2 on intel hardware.   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:44:56 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>K, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!, Message-ID: <3DAE15FC.A669CF50@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:BG > AFAIK, the 8.2 release is the target for the first "real" VMS on IPF.t  N I don't care about VMS on IA64. I care about VMS on Alpha and VAX because that- is what people will be using for a long time.c  M Is 8.2 the first release on Alpha that will have common code base with IA64 ?tM Or does 7.3-1 already have code in there that is full of #ifdef statements tol isolate alpha from ia64 code ?  L Who is going to debug the alpha version of the common code base ???? That isL why I think that skipping alpha versions of 8.0 and 8.1 may be dangerous and( 8.2 will be a version to avoid on Alpha.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.573 ************************