1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 20 Oct 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 580       Contents: Re: a couple of things) Accessing procedure names within an image # DIRECTORY doesn't go beyond 80col ? ' Re: DIRECTORY doesn't go beyond 80col ? ' Re: DIRECTORY doesn't go beyond 80col ? ( Re: Fun: First patch for VMS 7.5 sighted  Re: java on VMS - help requested  Re: java on VMS - help requested  Re: java on VMS - help requested? Re: knowing which graphics card I have without opening the box?  Re: Multia help needed RE: New User/Owner VMS question  RE: New User/Owner VMS question  Re: New User/Owner VMS question  RE: New User/Owner VMS question  RE: New User/Owner VMS question  RE: New User/Owner VMS question % Re: OT - we're back on old cars again % Python 2.1.3 on VMS 7.2 - Impossible? ) Re: Python 2.1.3 on VMS 7.2 - Impossible? ) Re: Python 2.1.3 on VMS 7.2 - Impossible?  Re: read QuickTime? : Type of monitor to use? [WAS: New User/Owner VMS question]> Re: Type of monitor to use? [WAS: New User/Owner VMS question]> Re: Type of monitor to use? [WAS: New User/Owner VMS question]> Re: Type of monitor to use? [WAS: New User/Owner VMS question]. Re: VMS tabletop without Office(tm): no chance. Re: VMS tabletop without Office(tm): no chance. Re: where can I ask general purpose questions?. Re: where can I ask general purpose questions?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:01:22 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: a couple of things 2 Message-ID: <SJ6dnYNQG7I-2y-gXTWcqw@metrocast.net>  6 "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote in message# news:6P6YPqXX1ngR@elias.decus.ch...    ...   H > Looking at the latest roadmap, there are serious plans afoot, which isD > a massive difference from the "maintenance only" mode I feared VMS$ > was going through a few years ago.  L I'm curious what you found in the latest roadmap (at least the one one findsI from the VMS home page) that's at all different from what has been common I knowledge since the Alphacide (i.e., well before the merger announcement) F that makes you so optimistic.  COE is of course there, and the port toL Itanic is of course there, and incremental enhancements in security, clusterL connectivity, performance, and support for new hardware are there (which areC of course always nice and do in the aggregate represent quite a few L man-years of work, but are any of these incremental enhancements major news,L let alone items that would merit the description 'serious plans'?), but as IJ said above aside from the fleshing out of some details this is pretty much- what was announced the week of June 25, 2001.   K Furthermore, AFAICT there's no mention of a VMS release after 8.2 (though a I couple of layered products have planned releases into 2005), nor even any G general indication of the direction such future releases (if any) might  take.   I Without in any way minimizing the amount of work that must occur over the K next two years to complete what I listed above, I do think it's appropriate I to question what, if anything, comes next - both in 2005 and longer-term. F The work through 2004 is really only the work necessary to perform theD committed port to Itanic and the committed implementation of the COEF platform, plus odds and ends that would be fairly conspicuous by theirI absence if not included:  it does not include any longer-term vision, let D alone the start of strategic longer-term development that might giveL credence to HP's plans for longer-term evolution of the platform (not that IH know of any such HP plans, but your reaction seemed to indicate that you. felt they could be inferred from the roadmap).  I So while it's indisputably true that VMS doesn't seem headed for the 2003 E code freeze that was planned a few years ago (the time you seem to be K referring to above), what do you see that convinces you it's not headed for K code freeze (or at least extreme chill) around 2005?  If you factor out the I Itanic port (which was mandated by the Alphacide - otherwise, code-freeze G would likely have occurred already) and COE work (which if I understand H correctly was required by some major government contracts), I'd say it's getting a mite chilly already.   - bill   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 10:37:20 -0600 (MDT) " From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com>2 Subject: Accessing procedure names within an imageF Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0210201028490.7227-100000@athena.csdco.com>  J The object is to allow a condition handler e-mail a traceback on a program crash. (Alpha VMS 7.2-2/7.3-1)  G I've got that working with lib$get_invo_xxx but can't figure out how to  get the called procedure names.      Thanks,   
 John Nebel   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 10:39:00 GMT . From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER), Subject: DIRECTORY doesn't go beyond 80col ?4 Message-ID: <8Jvs9.90540$N_6.1280212@news.chello.at>  J I just noticed that the DIRECTORY command displays 4 columns on 80 columnsI screens and eg. only 3 columns on 60 columns screen which seems quite ok.   L To my surprise it also displays only 4 columns on 132 columns screens. Why ?J It obviously honors the terminal width, but not beyond 80 columns. Is thisI true/intended ? And why did it take me umpteen years to wonder about it ?      --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:57:45 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG0 Subject: Re: DIRECTORY doesn't go beyond 80col ?0 Message-ID: <00A15B9F.3984140F@SendSpamHere.ORG>  e In article <8Jvs9.90540$N_6.1280212@news.chello.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes: K >I just noticed that the DIRECTORY command displays 4 columns on 80 columns J >screens and eg. only 3 columns on 60 columns screen which seems quite ok. > M >To my surprise it also displays only 4 columns on 132 columns screens. Why ? K >It obviously honors the terminal width, but not beyond 80 columns. Is this J >true/intended ? And why did it take me umpteen years to wonder about it ?  N One can display more than the default of 4 columns with the /COLUMNS qualifier of the DIRECTORY command.     L I suppose that a simple algorithm could be employed in the DIRECTORY commandM to determine the maximum number of columns that fit in 132 character mode but M if you use 132 character mode, you might wish to display filenames wider than C the 19 character default instead.  ie. DIRECTORY/WIDTH=FILENAME=32     --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:38:36 GMT . From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)0 Subject: Re: DIRECTORY doesn't go beyond 80col ?4 Message-ID: <06As9.93164$N_6.1347066@news.chello.at>  S In article <00A15B9F.3984140F@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: f >In article <8Jvs9.90540$N_6.1280212@news.chello.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:L >>I just noticed that the DIRECTORY command displays 4 columns on 80 columnsK >>screens and eg. only 3 columns on 60 columns screen which seems quite ok.  >>N >>To my surprise it also displays only 4 columns on 132 columns screens. Why ?L >>It obviously honors the terminal width, but not beyond 80 columns. Is thisK >>true/intended ? And why did it take me umpteen years to wonder about it ?  > O >One can display more than the default of 4 columns with the /COLUMNS qualifier  >of the DIRECTORY command.    J Yes, you are right, it is clearly documented. But I wondered why I thoughtG for years, that the columns count is derived from the terminal width...   M >I suppose that a simple algorithm could be employed in the DIRECTORY command N >to determine the maximum number of columns that fit in 132 character mode butN >if you use 132 character mode, you might wish to display filenames wider thanD >the 19 character default instead.  ie. DIRECTORY/WIDTH=FILENAME=32    I usually do  A 	$ D == "DIRECTORY/DATE/SIZE/SEC/WIDTH=(FILE=17,OWNER=15,SIZE=4)"    for my 80col screen...   Thanks for responding    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:49:55 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>1 Subject: Re: Fun: First patch for VMS 7.5 sighted & Message-ID: <3DB27C43.1050400@home.nl>   Paul Sture wrote:   H >In article <3DB13B4F.6060800@home.nl>, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> writes: >    > F >>I was checking the list of patches for AXP VMS, and found the first F >>patch for OpenVMS 7.5 ! It is a Fortran patch, so if you're running ) >>Fortran on OpenVMS 7.5 you are warned !  >> >>     >> >  >Whoops! > * >Index of /public/vms/axp/v7.5/fortran/7.53 >Parent Directory        16-Oct-2002 10:30      -   3 >dec-axpvms-forrtl-v0..> 16-Oct-2002 10:30     1k   3 >dec-axpvms-forrtl-v0..> 16-Oct-2002 10:30    46k   3 >dec-axpvms-forrtl-v0..> 16-Oct-2002 10:30   3.5M   3 >dec-axpvms-forteco-v..> 16-Oct-2002 10:30     1k   3 >dec-axpvms-forteco-v..> 16-Oct-2002 10:30    46k   3 >dec-axpvms-forteco-v..> 16-Oct-2002 10:30  11.8M   3 >fortave01075.CHKSUM     16-Oct-2002 10:30     1k   3 >fortave01075.CVRLET_TXT 16-Oct-2002 10:30    18k   3 >fortave01075.README     16-Oct-2002 10:30    46k    > G >BTW, I wish they would expand the size of column 1 there. When reading C >from a browser with a large enough window, it is possible to hover E >the mouse over the url and see most of the full name, but not always - >enough to distinguish one file from another.  > E >Before someone suggests using ftp instead, many of us sitting behind G >corporate firewalls don't have that option, and in any case often wish J >to read the cover letter and/or readme, not download the ECO file itself. >  >It is frustrating.  >   I The problem is that the webmaster hasn't set up the web server properly.  I It is possible not to show the "description" column with fancy indexing.  I Since that isn't used anyway, I suppose it would leave more room for the   two remaining columns.   >  >    >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 13:21:40 +0200 + From: John MacLean <mcleanj@swissonline.ch> ) Subject: Re: java on VMS - help requested - Message-ID: <3DB291C4.B3E3898@swissonline.ch>   $ Thanks Jeff, I'll take a look at it.  F One problem might be that the machines that I work on are strictly forG testing and while we can share a number of site and enterprise licenses 6 access to compilers is limited to development systems.     John     Jeffrey Coffield wrote:  >  > John,  > H > We use FastCGI to connect Apache to our VMS systems. It's fast, stableH > and interfaces with existing business logic. FastCGI allows us to haveH > batch jobs running that accept input from web pages doing a "post". GoC > to www.DigitalSynergyInc.com and click on the FastCGI link for an / > explanation and download for the VMS portion.  >  > Jeff Coffield    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:46:18 +0200 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> ) Subject: Re: java on VMS - help requested 5 Message-ID: <3DB2A59A.1D97F207@swissonline.delete.ch>   
 Keith & Arne,   D Thanks for your responses.  I'll try to merge a reply to both of you, because often you deal with the same issues.     Keith said =85 > =   J > Reality check here -- if your intent is to use this application with RM= S,J > you aren't going to be able to run anywhere except VMS.  So... why Java= ?  > =     F I'd like to learn how to use java servlets in a VMS environment and toH do this with something useful and not just a "Hello World" situation - IA wrote one of those and it worked.  It's probably a combination of C peergroup pressure and a perceived need to ensure a future in IT by D expanding my skills into something common.  For our own sakes and toG stop VMS becoming even more marginalised, the increasing use of java is ) something that we can't afford to ignore.    As Arne said =85= > Java is definatetly capable of commercial processing. It is ; > "THE" choice for enterprise computing today. Small things : > get developed for NT using MS technology. Big things get7 > developed with Java and J2EE. Financial, OLTP, e-bizz 9 > etc. stuff then my guess is that >80% of completely new 5 > stuff is being done in Java and J2EE. Java and J2EE " > business is way bigger than VMS.    F In response to both, I am talking of about 60 command procedures and aF total of about 50,000 lines of DCL (with about 40% being comment lines  this is still 30K lines of DCL).  E Many procedures deal with user I/O and simple tasks, but a lot of the E procedures are modular "worker" procedures that actually do the messy F work, which might be to manipulate several indexed files or to performE several processing steps.  As an example of this latter group, I have F one procedure that accepts a few parameters and handles all archiving,A listing what is archived and recovery from archive.  With modular G procedures for these kinds of tasks the testing and maintenance is much  easier.   @ Probably most of my problems with java come from a reluctance toH re-structure the whole things to re-write those 30,000 lines as java.  AG hybrid with user I/O handled by java and the main routines still in DCL G looks like it should be the easiest solution to create, for easier than  a total re-write.     	 Keith=85. J > Java has its own way of storing global data -- Properties.  It's fairly=  easy J > to read a properties file at the beginning of an app, use the data, the= n J > write it out if anything might have changed.  The only thing that could=  J > screw you up there is if multiple processes were changing the table at = the $ > same time (as in system logicals).  H No doubt it is easy to use a *sequential* properties file and to re-readH when and if I need to (which should not be often), but I would prefer toG use RTL routines and create VMS symbols because these symbols/propeties . would be used in the other command procedures.     Arne=85  > Which servlet container ?   D Huh ?  I didn't know there was such a thing.  I assumed that WASD orH Apache manuals would tell me how to integrate java servlets and that was all I would need.    Arne=85 @ > When you say "web application" do you specifically mean a J2EE> > web-application as in a war-file or do you use the term more > generally.  E I'm using the term generally to mean an application that displays the D client part via a web browser and a server part that runs on the web server.     
 Arne said =85 = > You will need to use JNI to do that. Java as being platform < > independent does not know about VMS index-sequential file.8 > Use JNI to call C code. Or use JNI to call C code that% > call your code in another language.    and Keith said =85J > It's not Java that must spawn a new process.  Maybe it's your web serve= r?  F As I understand it, the JNI spawns a VMS process in order to execute aA command procedure.  (Okay, software in C can be handled directly, H presumably by LIB routine LIB$FIND_IMAGE_SYMBOL.).  Now when the spawnedC process finishes its activity, I assume that it is terminated, thus I removing the current definitions of logical names and global symbols=85 =   C Please correct me if I am wrong about this because I think it is my  major obstacle.   > Multi-step tasks would require that the context of the task beH re-created when the next step was to be processed and re-creation of the% context is difficult and inefficient.     
 Arne said =85 ? > Have you looked at the Bridgeworks product. It is free. It is = > from Compaq (now HP). And it makes accessing DCL procedures  > from Java a piece of cake.  I I've just tried looking at it but the documentation for it is terrible. =   C The web pages are fixed width (by some auto-generating tool ?) at a G width suitable for US Letter size paper - and that means a loss of text G on the right-hand size of the page when one uses international A4 paper D size (as does a large part of the world).  I tried modifying a localH copy of the FAQ webpage but that took a couple of hours and when I could5 sit down and stuy it, it didn't really tell me much !   > Where's the introductory manual with plenty of examples ?  TheF Bridgework Wizard contains some of information but it looks like thereH are very few examples and I hope those pages don't have the same problem if I try to print them.   F I also see that the "What's new" page manages to truncate its own textG !  For example, when I view the page source at the start of the section C about Version 2.1, I can see the word "stability" but on a wide web E browser (with white space on the page at the right) this truncates to H "st".  Similar things happen all the way down the page.  Thanks Compaq !     Arne=85 @ > Accessing command procedures is easy with Bridgeworks. Without > it will be a bigger task.   H I might be interested if I could find out how to use it.  The problem isG that there is a shortage of any real introduction to tell me what it is H capable of.  It looks like I have to obtain a copy of the software and aE temporary license just so that I can see what it does and how it does G it.  I can find no visible links to the SPD anywhere on the Bridgeworks  pages=85   Arne=85 < > Accessing index-sequential files is not that difficult viaB > JNI. Yes - that is not portable. But neither is index-sequential? > files ! If you want portability use a relational database and  > JDBC.   G I rejected a relational database for the DCL version because it was not G possible to access the DB from DCL and get back a DCL symbol.  I wasn't G going to write the SQL output to files and read those files everytime I D wanted to do something.  It would be far too clumsy and inefficient.  C If I was going to re-write the whole package into java then I would C probably use a RDB but as I indicated earlier, a re-write is a very  major task.     F And thank you both for your general comments about Java.  I agree withD much of what you said.  The use of java is increasing and it is veryE popular for new applications.  It is portable - but only if using the A "lowest common denominator" set of capabilities and omiting those G capabilities that are not available on Unix and Windows.  I have doubts G about how important that portability really is but given that even unix 9 is not 100% portable, I guess it was seen as a necessity.   F With the reluctant but very large alliance of Unix and Windows systems? behind it, I guess VMS has to get with the action or be further 
 marginalised.    Cheers   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:37:25 +0200 * From: Mike Rechtman <rechtman@tzora.co.il>) Subject: Re: java on VMS - help requested * Message-ID: <3DB2E9D5.7070507@tzora.co.il>  & Has anyone built mod_fastcgi on Alpha?   Mike   John MacLean wrote:   & > Thanks Jeff, I'll take a look at it. > H > One problem might be that the machines that I work on are strictly forI > testing and while we can share a number of site and enterprise licenses 8 > access to compilers is limited to development systems. >  >  > John >  >  > Jeffrey Coffield wrote:  >  >>John,  >>H >>We use FastCGI to connect Apache to our VMS systems. It's fast, stableH >>and interfaces with existing business logic. FastCGI allows us to haveH >>batch jobs running that accept input from web pages doing a "post". GoC >>to www.DigitalSynergyInc.com and click on the FastCGI link for an / >>explanation and download for the VMS portion.  >> >>Jeff Coffield  >>     --    & New to c.o.vms? allow me to recommend:6 http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~rechtman/post_hlp.htm= Other useful links at http://eisner.decusserve.org/~rechtman/ E --------------------------------------------------------------------- E Usual disclaimer: All opinions are mine alone, perhaps not even that. ? Mike Rechtman                            *rechtman@tzora.co.il* E Kibbutz Tzor'a.                          Voice (home):(972)-2-9908337 C    "20% of a job takes 80% of the time, the rest takes another 80%" E ---------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------   Date: 19 Oct 2002 18:12:21 GMT7 From: sy18889@rabmbit.famrp.cosm (Bradford J. Hamilton) H Subject: Re: knowing which graphics card I have without opening the box?! Message-ID: <okUgNSeT4kyW@rabbit>   
 Hi Didier,  F Can I assume that your machine is a PWS, as shown in your mail header?  N If so, $ANA/SYS may be your friend; CLUE CONFIG should show you which graphicsG card is installed in your machine.  CLUE CONFIG shows me that I have a  9 PowerStorm 4D10T installed in my PWS 433au, for instance.   ; Sorry, I can't help you with the second part of your query.   S In article <aoske3$k52$1@news2adm.tiscali.fr>, DTL <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> writes:  > Question is in subject. I > I'm fed up having 16 million pictures displayed with gif (non) quality.  > H > Also, where will I find a good driver for this (unknown) card to work ( > with my Fujitsu/Siemens flat terminal? > 	 > Thanks,  >  > D. >  --   Bradford J. Hamilton& braMdhamAilPtoSn@aMtAtPbi.cSom		(home)& sMy1A88P89S@rabMbit.fAmPr.coSm		(work)  ; "All opinions that I express are my own, not my employer's"  "Lose the MAPS"    ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:29:10 -0500 (CDT)  From: sms@antinode.org Subject: Re: Multia help needed ) Message-ID: <02102001291002@antinode.org>   - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> J > Do not consider anything smaller than 16M sims for running OpenVMS, and ) > the larger simms are very hard to find.   F    "Hard to find" depends on your standards.  I have none to sell now,B but I've gotten sets of six 32MB, 64MB, and (most recently) 128MB,E 72-pin, parity SIMMs for my AlpSta 200 4/233 systems on Ebay.  I also B got a pair of incompatible 64MB SIMMs (HP A2580-60001, if anyone'sD looking for any of them, cheap).  I don't know if the Multia has anyE special requirements, but my risk-reward ratio had been reasonable on G Ebay memory purchases.  One potential seller, when contacted by e-mail, E offered to accept a return for refund if the units didn't work for me A (but they did).  I also expect to search for a few weeks before a : suitable bargain appears, and the 128MB units took longer.  E    Some of us just enjoy scraping barrel bottoms more than others do, @ apparently, especially when seeking parts for machines this old.  E    If I had something else to put into my Mac Performa 637CD, I could G free up a pair of 32MB SIMMs, but right now I have only one loose one.  G (I assume that the Multia, like the AlpSta 200, needs a pair of SIMMs.)   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  C    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home) C    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work) G    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work) 9    sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 08:26:03 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ( Subject: RE: New User/Owner VMS question9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEAOFPAA.tom@kednos.com>   C Just don't use anything larger than RZ26 (1GB)for you system drive, ! due to address wrap, see the FAQ.   = Anyone out there have 7.3-1 on VAX installed?  I note that we . no longer get VAX kits through CSA (soon DSPP)   >-----Original Message----- 2 >From: Kavok Ketras [mailto:KavokKetras@attbi.com]* >Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 10:56 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com% >Subject: New User/Owner VMS question  >  > B >Hello all. I will be the new owner of a VAX/VMS system. I ordered >a VAX 3100 I >off of Ebay. I assume that all 3100 models belong to the MicroVax class,  >yes?  > ' >I looked through the Hobbyist Guide at B >http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/vax_kit.pdf, and is installation >as easy as I >that? Its setup will go through and partition the hard drive, name it as ? >DKA0: (or whatever) and then install the VMS operating system?  > I >I come from a PC background and know Fdisk, format, and can I apply that K >knowledge as an analogy for setting up the VAX disk? I mean, are VAX disks 0 >inherently the same (having a partition, etc.)? > J >Is there a very good link/faq for first-time VAX owners in setting up VAX >system for first time ever? > F >Also the hobbyist site at Montgar seems to be sold out of OpenVMS VAXH >Hobbyist Kit. I don't see any on Ebay. Does anyone have a suggestion on >where to buy a copy?  > G >Also, I noticed that Encompass (the old DECUS) now charges $90 to be a I >member. All I want to do is occasionally play with this at home, I don't J >really have the time to attend conventions, that type of thing. I hope byL >just being Associate (which is free) is good enough. Am I being naive here? >  >Thanks many for your help.  >  >Kavok.  >  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002  >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:42:30 GMT . From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)( Subject: RE: New User/Owner VMS question4 Message-ID: <G9As9.93182$N_6.1347066@news.chello.at>  _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEAOFPAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: D >Just don't use anything larger than RZ26 (1GB)for you system drive," >due to address wrap, see the FAQ.  I Yes, but no troubles with bigger drives as a data disk. See also the FAQ.   I And there are PROM modifications out there which one could use (if he/she N has a PROM burner) to remove the 1.07GB limitation of the 3100 boot code, too.  > >Anyone out there have 7.3-1 on VAX installed?  I note that we/ >no longer get VAX kits through CSA (soon DSPP)   . There is no V7.3-1 for VAX. Only for Alphas...   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:45:09 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> ( Subject: Re: New User/Owner VMS questionH Message-ID: <9cAs9.24690$Q3S.20388@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  7 "Kavok Ketras" <KavokKetras@attbi.com> wrote in message & news:I0hs9.10186$Hj7.3270@rwcrnsc53...I > Hello all. I will be the new owner of a VAX/VMS system. I ordered a VAX  3100J > off of Ebay. I assume that all 3100 models belong to the MicroVax class, > yes? > ( > I looked through the Hobbyist Guide atK > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/vax_kit.pdf, and is installation as easy  asJ > that? Its setup will go through and partition the hard drive, name it as@ > DKA0: (or whatever) and then install the VMS operating system? > J > I come from a PC background and know Fdisk, format, and can I apply thatL > knowledge as an analogy for setting up the VAX disk? I mean, are VAX disks1 > inherently the same (having a partition, etc.)?  > K > Is there a very good link/faq for first-time VAX owners in setting up VAX  > system for first time ever?  > G > Also the hobbyist site at Montgar seems to be sold out of OpenVMS VAX I > Hobbyist Kit. I don't see any on Ebay. Does anyone have a suggestion on  > where to buy a copy? > H > Also, I noticed that Encompass (the old DECUS) now charges $90 to be aJ > member. All I want to do is occasionally play with this at home, I don'tK > really have the time to attend conventions, that type of thing. I hope by G > just being Associate (which is free) is good enough. Am I being naive  here?     H Going from dim distant memory, so I may be wrong on a couple details....  J I don't think the 3100 series came with a graphics card unless it was soldJ as a 'workstation'. This means that you have to use a VT-xxx terminal or aL software emulator on a PC/Mac. If it came with a graphics card, the card wasI most likely at fixed frequency output/fixed resolution. You would have to I find a matching DEC monitor or a multisync monitor that you could program K the correct refresh rate /resolution using the setup buttons on the monitor H before you connect it to the video card.. The video card output was mostK likely on BNC connectors, so your monitor would have to have those as well.   I If it was a monochrome video card, then it does synch-on-green at I think 	 70-75 Hz.   H IIRC, the 3100 has a thinwire and thickwire ethernet port, but not a nowI standard UTP RJ-45 type jack. It has a DEC MMJ jack for a VT-xxx or other G DEC gear. In order to connect a PC with a 'normal' ethernet card to the K thin/thick wire port, you will need a transceiver that converts to an RJ-45  style jack.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:38:11 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ( Subject: RE: New User/Owner VMS question9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEAPFPAA.tom@kednos.com>   < I thought I saw a nore a while back to the effect that 7.3-12 was the last VAX version.  Must have got it wrong.   >-----Original Message----- 6 >From: Peter LANGSTOEGER [mailto:peter@langstoeger.at]' >Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 8:43 AM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com) >Subject: RE: New User/Owner VMS question  >  > @ >In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEAOFPAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom ! >Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: E >>Just don't use anything larger than RZ26 (1GB)for you system drive, # >>due to address wrap, see the FAQ.  > J >Yes, but no troubles with bigger drives as a data disk. See also the FAQ. > J >And there are PROM modifications out there which one could use (if he/she@ >has a PROM burner) to remove the 1.07GB limitation of the 3100  >boot code, too. > ? >>Anyone out there have 7.3-1 on VAX installed?  I note that we 0 >>no longer get VAX kits through CSA (soon DSPP) > / >There is no V7.3-1 for VAX. Only for Alphas...  >  >--  >Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER& >Network and OpenVMS system specialist >E-mail  peter@langstoeger.at G >A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). B >Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 16:49:56 GMT . From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)( Subject: RE: New User/Owner VMS question4 Message-ID: <U8Bs9.93608$N_6.1368145@news.chello.at>  _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEAPFPAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: = >I thought I saw a nore a while back to the effect that 7.3-1 3 >was the last VAX version.  Must have got it wrong.   H Obviously. But OTOH even HPQ can get it wrong, too. eg. See in their ECOG FTP server and you find directories for OpenVMS VAX V6.1-1H1. V6.1-1H2, I V6.2-0HF, V6.2-1H1, V6.2-1H2, V6.2-1H3, V7.2-1 and V7.2-2 which did never ( exist (they were Alpha versions only)...  . 	ftp://ftp.service.digital.com/public/vms/vax/   So, whom can you trust ;-)   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Oct 2002 12:25:51 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ( Subject: RE: New User/Owner VMS question3 Message-ID: <fXXIdH4VItPx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEAPFPAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: > > I thought I saw a nore a while back to the effect that 7.3-14 > was the last VAX version.  Must have got it wrong.  E The _next_ VAX version according to discussion at the St. Louis DECUS F (equivalent) meeting will be 8.2.  For Alpha, they said there would beE a 7.3-2 release, followed by 8.2.   8.0 and 8.1 will be Itanium only, # similar to Alpha VMS V1.0 and V1.5.s   >>-----Original Message-----7 >>From: Peter LANGSTOEGER [mailto:peter@langstoeger.at]I( >>Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 8:43 AM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como* >>Subject: RE: New User/Owner VMS question >> >>A >>In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEAOFPAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom  " >>Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:  @ >>>Anyone out there have 7.3-1 on VAX installed?  I note that we1 >>>no longer get VAX kits through CSA (soon DSPP)E  A CSA has never distributed VAX kits -- they were set up to promote  Alpha.   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Oct 2002 07:08:46 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)d. Subject: Re: OT - we're back on old cars again5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-2GDpm5Y1cEOg@localhost>y  F On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:57:04 UTC, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)  wrote:    C > Ah, the joys of motoring, in the days when one could fix anythingeE > with the odd spanner or two, a pair of pliers, and a screwdriver...O  C Last Saturday my wife went out to her FIAT Punto to do the grocery SF shopping. It was raining, so to clear driver and passenger windows sheC thought she'd use the, now EC safety-regulation mandated, electric sD windows. Down and up goes the drivers side. Down goes the passenger F side and there it stayed. Three  hours later, cold, wet, cut, bleeding@ and extremely pi**ed off I gave up trying to get the window up. 0 Progress. (It was the electric motor - jammed!!)   -- D Cheers - Dave.   Sorry for continuing the OT.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 06:54:54 GMTa( From: Alder <PGDEHMKOKIMD@spammotel.com>. Subject: Python 2.1.3 on VMS 7.2 - Impossible?, Message-ID: <3DB25323.2050604@spammotel.com>  E As most of you know, the most recent hobbyist CD from Montagar comes  4 with OpenVMS 7.2 and the DEC C compiler version 6.0.  C I've just downloaded the latest Python for VMS release, 2.1.3, and  D struggled through some misnaming of symbols only to discover that I 2 can't compile it on anything older than DEC C 6.2.  G Are there any hobbyists here that have installed Python?  If I have to hI use an older release, or binaries, where should I be looking?  Are there r other options?   Thanks all,w   Alderh   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 07:05:32 GMTu. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)2 Subject: Re: Python 2.1.3 on VMS 7.2 - Impossible?4 Message-ID: <0Bss9.88212$N_6.1233376@news.chello.at>  W In article <3DB25323.2050604@spammotel.com>, Alder <PGDEHMKOKIMD@spammotel.com> writes:hF >As most of you know, the most recent hobbyist CD from Montagar comes 5 >with OpenVMS 7.2 and the DEC C compiler version 6.0.o >eD >I've just downloaded the latest Python for VMS release, 2.1.3, and E >struggled through some misnaming of symbols only to discover that I  3 >can't compile it on anything older than DEC C 6.2.o >oH >Are there any hobbyists here that have installed Python?  If I have to J >use an older release, or binaries, where should I be looking?  Are there  >other options?d   Yes, drop me a note.   -- h Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERr% Network and OpenVMS system specialisto E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:41:11 +0200n6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>2 Subject: Re: Python 2.1.3 on VMS 7.2 - Impossible?) Message-ID: <3DB27A37.5010707@vajhoej.dk>h  Y > In article <3DB25323.2050604@spammotel.com>, Alder <PGDEHMKOKIMD@spammotel.com> writes:yG >>As most of you know, the most recent hobbyist CD from Montagar comes p6 >>with OpenVMS 7.2 and the DEC C compiler version 6.0. >>E >>I've just downloaded the latest Python for VMS release, 2.1.3, and eF >>struggled through some misnaming of symbols only to discover that I 4 >>can't compile it on anything older than DEC C 6.2.  . Where is Python 2.1.3 for VMS available from ?   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:56:39 +0200a- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>c Subject: Re: read QuickTime?& Message-ID: <3DB261B8.6302A7C@Free.fr>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  ../.. P > Your best bet right now is to buy a MAC and NFS to the VMS machine so that the > mac can read the .MOV file.@  G r u kiddin' JF, I do have a Mac. I'm an IT professional, you see. I use O professional tools, not do-it-yourself toys for OS computer programming maniacsl8 and IT managers who follow stupidely the flow of sheeps.   D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 07:42:17 GMT % From: "Echoes" <echoes@somewhere.com>dC Subject: Type of monitor to use? [WAS: New User/Owner VMS question]-, Message-ID: <t7ts9.20851$qM2.4524@sccrnsc02>  E About the hardware, what can I do to prep? Does the 3100 plug up to adG regular monitor using VGA port? Or do I need to get a different type ofoJ monitor (such as component) and buy a non-vga cable? Do I need to buy some: special type of power cord? Is keyboard using a PS/2 port?    0 "Echoes" <echoes@somewhere.com> wrote in message7 news:Rnis9.15535$zE6.45615@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...o# > Thank you much for your response!o >e< > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message/ > news:rPI2vHdmEMfJ@eisner.encompasserve.org... ? > > In article <I0hs9.10186$Hj7.3270@rwcrnsc53>, "Kavok Ketras" ! > <KavokKetras@attbi.com> writes:0I > > > Hello all. I will be the new owner of a VAX/VMS system. I ordered a- VAX- > 3100G > > > off of Ebay. I assume that all 3100 models belong to the MicroVaxd class,
 > > > yes? > >:E > > Yes, although there is rarely a need for anyone to care about then, > > difference between a VAX and a MicroVAX. > >1, > > > I looked through the Hobbyist Guide atJ > > > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/vax_kit.pdf, and is installation as	 > easy asnK > > > that? Its setup will go through and partition the hard drive, name its asD > > > DKA0: (or whatever) and then install the VMS operating system? > > >rI > > > I come from a PC background and know Fdisk, format, and can I applyl thatJ > > > knowledge as an analogy for setting up the VAX disk? I mean, are VAX > disks 5 > > > inherently the same (having a partition, etc.)?t > > F > > In general, VMS disks are not partitioned.  The INITIALIZE commandH > > will do the software formatting for a disk, as will the BACKUP/IMAGE6 > > that is typically part of an initial installation. > > K > > > Is there a very good link/faq for first-time VAX owners in setting upa > VAX ! > > > system for first time ever?D > >OJ > > The VMS Installation Guide for the appropriate version of VMS is best. > > ' > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/  > >WL > > > Also, I noticed that Encompass (the old DECUS) now charges $90 to be aH > > > member. All I want to do is occasionally play with this at home, I don't L > > > really have the time to attend conventions, that type of thing. I hope > byK > > > just being Associate (which is free) is good enough. Am I being naivee > here?X > > K > > Being an Associate member is good enough -- that was a requirement fromaL > > VMS Development, that the hobbyist program not require a membership fee. >I >T   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:22:13 GMTl. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)G Subject: Re: Type of monitor to use? [WAS: New User/Owner VMS question]e4 Message-ID: <9Bus9.89731$N_6.1262445@news.chello.at>  T In article <t7ts9.20851$qM2.4524@sccrnsc02>, "Echoes" <echoes@somewhere.com> writes:F >About the hardware, what can I do to prep? Does the 3100 plug up to aH >regular monitor using VGA port? Or do I need to get a different type ofK >monitor (such as component) and buy a non-vga cable? Do I need to buy some ; >special type of power cord? Is keyboard using a PS/2 port?d   No. The monitor is DEC special.aD RGB, sync-on-green (no H/no V), BNC, 1024x864(GPX) or 1280x1024(SPX)    No. The keyboard is DEC special. LK201 (or LK401)  . Don't confuse workstations with Personal Crap.J Workstations were expensive,heavy but were designed for over 15 years use.A PC were cheap but you had to throw it away after about 5 years...O   -- / Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERE% Network and OpenVMS system specialist. E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 10:11:56 -0400 ! From: "me" <wicklinedd@erols.com>-G Subject: Re: Type of monitor to use? [WAS: New User/Owner VMS question] + Message-ID: <aouct5$i7c$1@bob.news.rcn.net>i  H If it is Microvax will it even have a graphics card?  I thought theywereJ terminal driven.  Vaxstations had graphics cards.  If this is the case, anI MMJ to serial port null modem cable is needed.  Hyperterminal works OK onSL Windows.  Preinstalled in Linux is usually minicom which works pretty slick.J One old distribution had Seyon installed with OVWM which worked out of the box as a terminal.   Dave  9 Peter LANGSTOEGER <peter@langstoeger.at> wrote in message1. news:9Bus9.89731$N_6.1262445@news.chello.at...7 > In article <t7ts9.20851$qM2.4524@sccrnsc02>, "Echoes"> <echoes@somewhere.com> writes:H > >About the hardware, what can I do to prep? Does the 3100 plug up to aJ > >regular monitor using VGA port? Or do I need to get a different type ofH > >monitor (such as component) and buy a non-vga cable? Do I need to buy some= > >special type of power cord? Is keyboard using a PS/2 port?1 >c! > No. The monitor is DEC special.7F > RGB, sync-on-green (no H/no V), BNC, 1024x864(GPX) or 1280x1024(SPX) >d" > No. The keyboard is DEC special. > LK201 (or LK401) > 0 > Don't confuse workstations with Personal Crap.L > Workstations were expensive,heavy but were designed for over 15 years use.C > PC were cheap but you had to throw it away after about 5 years...g >s > -- > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERi' > Network and OpenVMS system specialistv > E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atH > A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:34:33 GMTm. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)G Subject: Re: Type of monitor to use? [WAS: New User/Owner VMS question] 4 Message-ID: <d2As9.93139$N_6.1347066@news.chello.at>  O In article <aouct5$i7c$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "me" <wicklinedd@erols.com> writes:-H >If it is Microvax will it even have a graphics card? I thought theywere2 >terminal driven. Vaxstations had graphics cards.   = Yup. MicroVAX had no graphic cards while VAXstation had ones. D With the MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 the identification whether it is aB VAXstation or a MicroVAX was done via a [P]ROM on the Motherboard.> So, one could end up having a MicroVAX with a graphic-adapter.  F With the MicroVAX/VAXstation/VAXserver 3100 it must have been similar,F because when one booted a VAXstation 3100 without an keyboard attachedF the machines identified itself as a VAXserver (and your VMS license isD no longer appropriate). I think the same happens if you open the boxG and remove the graphic adapter at all. So, I think, there was a PROM oriA a Jumper selecting MicroVAX and VAXstation/VAXserver in addition.V  8 But otherwise, VAXstations and MicroVAXes are identical.  I >                                                 If this is the case, anj/ >MMJ to serial port null modem cable is needed.S  I You have to use a serial line console for a MicroVAX or a VAXserver, yes.   I >                                               Hyperterminal works OK ont	 >Windows.e  E As an operator terminal, yes. As an DEC/ANSI compatible terminal, NO. E Better use Hyperterminal Private Edition (HTPE) which is much better.=   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialistJ E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:33:03 +0200f6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>7 Subject: Re: VMS tabletop without Office(tm): no chancee) Message-ID: <3DB2784F.7020803@vajhoej.dk>i   Doc.Cypher wrote:w  L > Despite using a pseudonym, I do remember office staff using Wordperfect on > VAX systems.   Me too.    But it is almost 10 years ago.  ( The office world has changed since then.   Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:27:31 GMTa( From: "Jay E. Morris" <jem@epsilon3.com>7 Subject: Re: VMS tabletop without Office(tm): no chance2< Message-ID: <n3zs9.167712$8o3.4838740@twister.austin.rr.com>  H In message <3DB134AE.9060704@vajhoej.dk>, Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote: > Ed Wensell III wrote:r >  > > Didier Morandi wrote:f; > >>Who will start porting MS Office(tm) to VMS/DECwindows?e > >> > >>I ask the question.c > > ; > > Maybe the question should be who's going to take on thee > > OpenOffice/StarOffice VMS? > # > That at least would be possible !l > 6 > I have serious doubts how much it would be used, but4 > that is one of the good thing about free software:4 > 1000 users paying 0 $ is the same as 1000000 users > paying 0 $ ! >  > Arne  K Well if it had an email client that could connect to an exchange server I'd  never turn my PC on.   --  # Jay E. Morris Epsilon 3 Productionsr@ Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.8 Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:39:36 +0200l6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>7 Subject: Re: where can I ask general purpose questions?b) Message-ID: <3DB279D8.2080100@vajhoej.dk>r  
 DTL wrote:  I > There used to be a DEC internal use forum (we say "conference") called -C > ASKENET, where all kind of questions could be asked to the whole e > (connected) DEC community. >  > Is there such Internet forum?t > > > My question is: "where can I ask general purpose questions?" > :-)e  / I think comp.os.vms/INFO-VAX is *the* place fort general purpose questions.   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Oct 2002 07:05:01 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)s7 Subject: Re: where can I ask general purpose questions?n3 Message-ID: <E+jWQMbQPDbk@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  b In article <3DB279D8.2080100@vajhoej.dk>, Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: > DTL wrote: > J >> There used to be a DEC internal use forum (we say "conference") called D >> ASKENET, where all kind of questions could be asked to the whole  >> (connected) DEC community.p >> t  >> Is there such Internet forum? >>  ? >> My question is: "where can I ask general purpose questions?"e >> :-) > 1 > I think comp.os.vms/INFO-VAX is *the* place for  > general purpose questions.  3 DECUServe is another.  Telnet to eisner.decus.org .w   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.580 ************************tform < > independent does not know about VMS index-sequential file.8 > Use JNI to call C code. Or use JNI to call C code that% > call your code in another language.    and Keith said =85J > It's not Java that must spawn a new process.  Maybe it's your web serve= r?  F As I understand it, the JNI spawns a VMS proﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    ﻪ    