1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 23 Oct 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 585       Contents: ACMS Queue Manager Functions# Re: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem # Re: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem # RE: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem # Re: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem # RE: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem # Re: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem # Re: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem  Another strike against Itanium" Re: Another strike against Itanium" Re: Another strike against Itanium" Re: Another strike against Itanium" Re: Another strike against Itanium" Re: Another strike against Itanium Re: Any news from Sue ?  Re: Any news from Sue ?  Re: CTRL-Y and VMS BACKUP A Re: Current storage interconnect options, and new gigabit option? " Digital Items on eBay Ending 10/24( Re: Dual ISA ethernet adapter on VMS 7.2" Free PointSecure snapshot utility?& Re: Free PointSecure snapshot utility? Graphic boards for DS10L4 Re: HP - Why isn't this bank using OpenVMS clusters?4 Re: HP - Why isn't this bank using OpenVMS clusters?4 Re: HP - Why isn't this bank using OpenVMS clusters?4 Re: HP - Why isn't this bank using OpenVMS clusters?7 Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"! 7 Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"! 7 Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"! 7 Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"!   Just bought an RA8000, now what? Re: Micro$oft propaganda Re: Micro$oft propaganda Re: NCDware for OpenVMS ?  Re: NCDware for OpenVMS ?  Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING0 OT:  Shoulder injuries (was Any news from Sue ?) page or pagelet  Re: page or pagelet 
 Re: PCL image  Re: read QuickTime?  Re: read QuickTime? & SANworks Management Appliance question Re: Soft CPU Affinity: off  TCPIP 5.3 and SMTP authorization$ Re: TCPIP 5.3 and SMTP authorization$ Re: Technical Question -- Thank you! TPU port to Linux 4 Re: turn a PWS600au to a (nearly) real multimedia PC4 RE: turn a PWS600au to a (nearly) real multimedia PC- Re: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how? - Re: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how? - Re: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how? - RE: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how? - Re: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how? - RE: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how? + Re: Why does this file-spec work only once? + Re: Why does this file-spec work only once? # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! ' Re: [OT] - we're back on old cars again ' Re: [OT] - we're back on old cars again   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 11:44:59 -07008 From: roland.hughes@nav-international.com (dont_spam_me)% Subject: ACMS Queue Manager Functions = Message-ID: <c612bd19.0210221044.3b7e0701@posting.google.com>    All,  E I'm looking through the acms manuals trying to write some menu driven E queue monitoring functions like I've had at other locations.  I can't = find documentation, but I know it exists somewhere, to do the  following things:   D 1)  Access the ACMS Queue manager and obtain a list of all installed queues. A 2)  Pass a queue name into and rectrieve the current depth of the + queue (wether the queue is started or not).     F Basically I want to write a develop a program which lets the user pickF a queue from a list of all available queues, show its depth, select anF individual entry on that queue for either queueing to another queue orF for deletion.  Pretty simple, but handy functionality.  I haven't doneC this in a while and lost my doc for the queue management interface.    Thanks!    Roland   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Oct 2002 21:21:34 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>, Subject: Re: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem* Message-ID: <ap4fgu1f6@enews2.newsguy.com>   dittman@dittman.net wrote:@ > I have an Alphaserver 4100 with two 5/533 CPUs and 4GB of RAM.? > I've followed the Galaxy configuration documentation and have : > two instances.  My lp* variables are defined as follows:  F Does the 4100 support Galaxy?  I'd thought you needed something like a GS160.   			Zane    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:52:51 GMT  From: dittman@dittman.net , Subject: Re: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem6 Message-ID: <TMjt9.2168$wm6.1503@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>   dittman@dittman.net wrote:@ : I have an Alphaserver 4100 with two 5/533 CPUs and 4GB of RAM.? : I've followed the Galaxy configuration documentation and have : : two instances.  My lp* variables are defined as follows: :...9 : I would guess that I am missing something.  The devices < : on IOD0 appear only on instance 0, and the devices on IOD11 : appear only on instance 1, like I would assume.    : What am I doing wrong?  = The problem turned out to be a faulty memory board.  The boot / memory test didn't catch it, but test mem0 did.   ; Does anyone know of a place that will repair a B3030-CF 1GB  4100 memory board? --   Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net = Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:13:48 -0700 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>, Subject: RE: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem0 Message-ID: <01C279DD.A9AD85D0@sulfer.icius.com>  H Galaxy code is supported on all Alphas, so you can develop for it on anyB size machine. To actually /use/ galaxy you have to have one of theG newer, larger machines. I'm sure someone has the manual to hand and can 8 look up if the 4100 is among them, but I don't think so.   Shane    -----Original Message-----7 From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com] ' Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:22 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com , Subject: Re: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem     dittman@dittman.net wrote:@ > I have an Alphaserver 4100 with two 5/533 CPUs and 4GB of RAM.? > I've followed the Galaxy configuration documentation and have : > two instances.  My lp* variables are defined as follows:  F Does the 4100 support Galaxy?  I'd thought you needed something like a GS160.   			Zane    ------------------------------   Date: 23 Oct 02 00:38:32 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) , Subject: Re: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem) Message-ID: <+7BMx3im22Rz@elias.decus.ch>   _ In article <ap4fgu1f6@enews2.newsguy.com>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> writes:  > dittman@dittman.net wrote:A >> I have an Alphaserver 4100 with two 5/533 CPUs and 4GB of RAM. @ >> I've followed the Galaxy configuration documentation and have; >> two instances.  My lp* variables are defined as follows:  > H > Does the 4100 support Galaxy?  I'd thought you needed something like a > GS160.  G I thought it did, at least for testing purposes. Limited to a couple of  instances IIRC.    --  
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:32:41 +0000 (UTC) + From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) , Subject: RE: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem+ Message-ID: <ap4n6p$of0$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   W In article <01C279DD.A9AD85D0@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes: I >Galaxy code is supported on all Alphas, so you can develop for it on any C >size machine. To actually /use/ galaxy you have to have one of the H >newer, larger machines. I'm sure someone has the manual to hand and can9 >look up if the 4100 is among them, but I don't think so.  >   L I'm pretty sure the 4100 was touted as being a good development platform for4 galaxy. With 4cpus you can have two 2 cpu instances.  H It doesn't make much sense to use a 4100 in production in that way sinceG with a maximum of 4cpus to play with you won't get any of the SMP gains  that galaxy provides.   
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University       >Shane   >  >-----Original Message----- 8 >From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com]( >Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:22 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com- >Subject: Re: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem  >  >  >dittman@dittman.net wrote: A >> I have an Alphaserver 4100 with two 5/533 CPUs and 4GB of RAM. @ >> I've followed the Galaxy configuration documentation and have; >> two instances.  My lp* variables are defined as follows:  > G >Does the 4100 support Galaxy?  I'd thought you needed something like a  >GS160.  >  >			Zane   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 03:37:49 GMT  From: dittman@dittman.net , Subject: Re: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem3 Message-ID: <hQot9.413$IU6.89@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>   1 Zane H. Healy <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote:  : dittman@dittman.net wrote:A :> I have an Alphaserver 4100 with two 5/533 CPUs and 4GB of RAM. @ :> I've followed the Galaxy configuration documentation and have; :> two instances.  My lp* variables are defined as follows:   H : Does the 4100 support Galaxy?  I'd thought you needed something like a : GS160.  ; Yes, the 4100 supports a maximum of two instances.  CPU0 is 9 always assigned to the first instance, and CPU1 is always ; assigned to the second instance.  The other two CPUs can be 9 assigned to either instance.  COM1 is the console for the 6 first instance, and COM2 is the console for the second< instance.  The PCI slots on IOD0 are for the first instance,6 and the PCI slots on IOD1 are for the second instance.  ; For more information, look at the manual on the OpenVMS web  site.  --   Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net = Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 03:41:21 GMT  From: dittman@dittman.net , Subject: Re: Alphaserver 4100 Galaxy Problem4 Message-ID: <BTot9.421$IU6.135@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>  , David Webb <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote:Y : In article <01C279DD.A9AD85D0@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes: J :>Galaxy code is supported on all Alphas, so you can develop for it on anyD :>size machine. To actually /use/ galaxy you have to have one of theI :>newer, larger machines. I'm sure someone has the manual to hand and can : :>look up if the 4100 is among them, but I don't think so. :>  N : I'm pretty sure the 4100 was touted as being a good development platform for6 : galaxy. With 4cpus you can have two 2 cpu instances.  J : It doesn't make much sense to use a 4100 in production in that way sinceI : with a maximum of 4cpus to play with you won't get any of the SMP gains  : that galaxy provides.   < A 4100 is a good test and development platform.  You can run= your development on one instance and your tests on the other.   4 I'm trying it on my 4100 to play around with Galaxy. --   Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net = Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 12:54:50 -0700 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>' Subject: Another strike against Itanium 0 Message-ID: <01C279CA.4A542B60@sulfer.icius.com>  H http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/10/21/021021hnopteron.xml?s= IDGNS   E (Apologies for wrap / any stray Outlook-inserted crap. It's jammed in  "rich text" again)  H Apparently Cray reckon the AMD Opteron (their high end 64 bit chip) is aF better part to build a supercomputer with than Itanic. I bet intel are9 (ahem) annoyed. Last time around, they used Alphas. Sigh.    Shane    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:36:21 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> + Subject: Re: Another strike against Itanium ' Message-ID: <3DB61935.7D85BA3C@fsi.net>    Shane Smith wrote: > J > http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/10/21/021021hnopteron.xml?s= > IDGNS  > G > (Apologies for wrap / any stray Outlook-inserted crap. It's jammed in  > "rich text" again) > J > Apparently Cray reckon the AMD Opteron (their high end 64 bit chip) is aH > better part to build a supercomputer with than Itanic. I bet intel are; > (ahem) annoyed. Last time around, they used Alphas. Sigh.  >  > Shane   G I read across the train car the other day in another fellow's newspaper D sonething about AMD's Hammer chips was seleceted for some governmentF contract or another over Itanic. Sorry - don't recall the specifics... --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 02:44:23 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> + Subject: Re: Another strike against Itanium I Message-ID: <b2ot9.52268$mxk1.37969@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   1 "Shane Smith" <ssmith@icius.com> wrote in message * news:01C279CA.4A542B60@sulfer.icius.com...J > http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/10/21/021021hnopteron.xml?s= > IDGNS  > G > (Apologies for wrap / any stray Outlook-inserted crap. It's jammed in  > "rich text" again) > J > Apparently Cray reckon the AMD Opteron (their high end 64 bit chip) is aH > better part to build a supercomputer with than Itanic. I bet intel are; > (ahem) annoyed. Last time around, they used Alphas. Sigh.     8 http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,636151,00.asp  2 http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,643544,00.asp  H "While Cray and Sandia intially declined to detail the size of their newL supercomputer, AMD disclosed late Monday that more than 10,000 Opteron chips, would be used to power the behemoth system."    H Imagine that....HP could double their shipment of Alpha cpu's by sellingJ partnering with Cray on just one system. 10,000 cpu's in one system -isn't9 that about the annual run rate for Alpha these days?  :-(    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:04:16 -0700 " From: Koloth <koloth@telocity.com>+ Subject: Re: Another strike against Itanium ' Message-ID: <3DB61FC0.207@telocity.com>   & --------------0500020501090403090204079 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   F If I was HP OpenVMS engineering I would be funding a small project to  look at porting to AMD'sI processor just to see how much difference it would be from Itanium.  For  ) all the effort put into the Itanium port, @ the step to AMD couldn't be that much more.  It would be a nice % marketing tool.  Hey OpenVMS runs not H only on Itanium but AMD as well!  How about that for open?  We may even & have to uppercase the OPEN in OpenVMS.  . ("It was just a dream Bob, Go back to sleep.")   Cass Witkowski     David J. Dachtera wrote:   >Shane Smith wrote:  >    > J >>http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/10/21/021021hnopteron.xml?s= >>IDGNS  >>G >>(Apologies for wrap / any stray Outlook-inserted crap. It's jammed in  >>"rich text" again) >>J >>Apparently Cray reckon the AMD Opteron (their high end 64 bit chip) is aH >>better part to build a supercomputer with than Itanic. I bet intel are; >>(ahem) annoyed. Last time around, they used Alphas. Sigh.  >> >>Shane  >>     >> > H >I read across the train car the other day in another fellow's newspaperE >sonething about AMD's Hammer chips was seleceted for some government G >contract or another over Itanic. Sorry - don't recall the specifics...  >    >     & --------------050002050109040309020407) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   ? <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">  <html> <head>I   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">    <title></title>  </head>  <body>J If I was HP OpenVMS engineering I would be funding a small project to look at porting to AMD's <br>M processor just to see how much difference it would be from Itanium. &nbsp;For - all the effort put into the Itanium port,<br> N the step to AMD couldn't be that much more. &nbsp;It would be a nice marketing% tool. &nbsp;Hey OpenVMS runs not <br> V only on Itanium but AMD as well! &nbsp;How about that for open? &nbsp;We may even have% to uppercase the OPEN in OpenVMS.<br>  <br>2 ("It was just a dream Bob, Go back to sleep.")<br> <br> Cass Witkowski<br> <br> <br> David J. Dachtera wrote:<br>< <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid3DB61935.7D85BA3C@fsi.net">!   <pre wrap="">Shane Smith wrote:    </pre>   <blockquote type="cite">     <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/10/21/021021hnopteron.xml?s=">http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/10/21/021021hnopteron.xml?s=</a> IDGNS   E (Apologies for wrap / any stray Outlook-inserted crap. It's jammed in  "rich text" again)  H Apparently Cray reckon the AMD Opteron (their high end 64 bit chip) is aF better part to build a supercomputer with than Itanic. I bet intel are9 (ahem) annoyed. Last time around, they used Alphas. Sigh.    Shane 
     </pre>   </blockquote>    <pre wrap=""><!---->G I read across the train car the other day in another fellow's newspaper D sonething about AMD's Hammer chips was seleceted for some governmentF contract or another over Itanic. Sorry - don't recall the specifics...   </pre>
 </blockquote>  <br> </body>  </html>   ( --------------050002050109040309020407--   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:25:31 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> + Subject: Re: Another strike against Itanium , Message-ID: <3DB624B0.4D9A4BD8@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote: J > Imagine that....HP could double their shipment of Alpha cpu's by sellingL > partnering with Cray on just one system. 10,000 cpu's in one system -isn't; > that about the annual run rate for Alpha these days?  :-(    No, no, no !!!  M To do the same job as 10,000  glorified 64bit 8086s, you'd only need 16 Alpha  CPUs... :-)   N Not even worth assigning an "entrrprise" HP sales critter to this account. ButN HP may have tried to sell 20,000  32 bit 8086s to Sandia. Now, that would have$ been worth assgning a sales critter.    K Because a better performing chip requires fewer CPUs, the sales numbers are  less impressive.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:48:45 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>+ Subject: Re: Another strike against Itanium 2 Message-ID: <UXqdnS12jpWwpSugXTWcrg@metrocast.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3DB624B0.4D9A4BD8@videotron.ca... > John Smith wrote: L > > Imagine that....HP could double their shipment of Alpha cpu's by selling@ > > partnering with Cray on just one system. 10,000 cpu's in one
 system -isn't = > > that about the annual run rate for Alpha these days?  :-(  >  > No, no, no !!! > I > To do the same job as 10,000  glorified 64bit 8086s, you'd only need 16  Alpha 
 > CPUs... :-)  > L > Not even worth assigning an "entrrprise" HP sales critter to this account. But K > HP may have tried to sell 20,000  32 bit 8086s to Sandia. Now, that would  have& > been worth assgning a sales critter. >  > I > Because a better performing chip requires fewer CPUs, the sales numbers  are  > less impressive.  J Either you're attempting to be humorous, or you're confused.  While ItanicL will have difficulty surpassing EV7's SPECint performance (and won't be ableL to touch EV7 in other areas, save for FP) until Alpha development stops, theG new Hammer numbers help prove what I've suspected would be the case all J along:  Hammer will out-perform EV7 pretty much across the board, save forJ FP - and at dramatically lower cost.  Assuming that the current efforts toF expand Hammer's multi-processor configuration beyond 8 processors bearJ fruit, Alpha will lose that advantage as well (though if it weren't headedB for the glue factory I suspect that its established credibility inG large-scale server configurations would have enabled it to hold off the 1 Hammer threat in anything but lower-end markets).   G EV8 would have given Alpha the chance to regain a lead over Hammer (and K leave Itanic well behind both of them).  As it is, about the time EV8 would H have appeared Hammer should be going to dual cores on a chip (in a 90 nmJ process), which is when Alpha will get left in the dust along with Itanic.H And if blade servers really do become popular, the fact that Hammer willH consume only a little over half the power of Itanic or EV7 (though EV7'sE consumption includes a lot of surrounding glue that Itanic must power $ separately) will help there as well.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:25:18 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>   Subject: Re: Any news from Sue ?' Message-ID: <3DB6169E.7879298B@fsi.net>    Sue Skonetski wrote: > % > Dear JF, Fred, Shane and newsgroup.  > , > Thank you very much for asking and caring. > D > Well I am alive.  I had a frozen shoulder, you go to the hospital,E > they knock you out and they yank your arm till the tissue tears you ; > wake up in a large amount of pain and they send you home.   D *OUCH*!!!! "Frozen shoulder"? I've heard of "the cold shoulder", but that's a new one on me...   F > The hard part is physical therapy every day which is rather painful.  = My mom just had a hip replacement (she'll be 90 the day after H Christmas). Likewise, she still winces a lot, but she's gotta get up andF move around. She's supposed to come home tomorrow (Wed., 23-Oct-2002).  ) > I will be back in the office next week.   - Best wishes for a full and speedy recovery...    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:30:30 -0700 " From: Koloth <koloth@telocity.com>  Subject: Re: Any news from Sue ?+ Message-ID: <3DB617D6.1080602@telocity.com>   G Sounds a lot like how us VMS users have felt in the past.  (Paging Dr.   Palmer.  Paging Dr. Palmer)   G Get well soon Sue.  Sounds like you need to do those "12 oz." curls to   strengthen your arm muscles.  : Take two Towaka Margaritas and call me in the morning.  :)   Cass Witkowski   Sue Skonetski wrote:  $ >Dear JF, Fred, Shane and newsgroup. > + >Thank you very much for asking and caring.  > C >Well I am alive.  I had a frozen shoulder, you go to the hospital, D >they knock you out and they yank your arm till the tissue tears you: >wake up in a large amount of pain and they send you home. > E >The hard part is physical therapy every day which is rather painful.  > ( >I will be back in the office next week. >  >sue   > b >I AQQShane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> wrote in message news:<01C278F6.56523030@sulfer.icius.com>... >    > H >>I literally just exchanged emails with her. She seems in good spirits. >> >>Shane  >> >>-----Original Message-----< >>From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com]) >>Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 10:42 AM  >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com " >>Subject: Re: Any news from Sue ? >> >>I >>She has been sending mail, so I am assuming all is well.  She indicated  >>toG >>me before she left that the procedure didn't require a hospital stay,  >>but + >>she would be recovering for a week or so.  >>G >>Expect her to need a few days to get unburied from mail.  She is very  >>popular, and very busy.  >>? >>JF Mezei wrote in message <3DB39344.B8F1DA18@videotron.ca>...  >>     >>L >>>Last week, Sue announced that she was recovering from surgey and would be	 >>>        >>>  >> at  >>     >>M >>>home for some time. haven't heard from her since. Any news from her ? Sue, 	 >>>        >>>  >> are >>     >> >>>you still alive ? Doing OK ? 	 >>>        >>>    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 16:55:38 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)" Subject: Re: CTRL-Y and VMS BACKUP= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0210221555.619e2f8d@posting.google.com>   j whohe@whoever.com (DL Phillips) wrote in message news:<af0dc2ea.0210210915.5fc5a679@posting.google.com>...u > spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) wrote in message news:<b096a4ee.0210190756.5080b2c2@posting.google.com>...  [...]  > @ > I understand that you are saying you could check the original ? > command to see if there are conflicts with a restore command, < > but that other than with an image backup it would probably> > not be possible to resolve all ambiguities. I agree. I don't? > think backup should make that decision. I think backup should < > follow the operators command instructions exactly. I would> > agree that the original command should be considered in one  > way, though.  ? It does follow the operator's command exactly. Nowhere does the E operator's command distinguish between stopping at the first matching 7 file and searching the entire save set for all matches.   B > If I backup file ABCD.EFG to save_set A and then try to restore ? > file BCDE.FGH from that save_set, backup will read the whole  ? > tape and terminate without finding the file. I screwed up my  % > command, but backup gave it the go.  > @ > Maybe it should have looked at the original backup command and? > determined that I couldn't restore BCDE.FGH from the original > > "backup abcd.efg $tape1:a/save_set" and if so, that would be= > great. That is specific and unambiguous and should probably = > give me an error message now. If my backup command is less  ? > specific the tape must be searched to find the file, just as   > you've said.   OK.    B > However, if I tell it to get one or more specific files then it B > should terminate once it's done it. It just needs to follow the D > exact instructions I give it. If there are more files on the tape E > that I want then I'll tell it by correctly constructing my command  > > with wildcarded or defaulted or listed input file selection.  A The argument of the /SELECT qualifier tells BACKUP which file you D want. The input save set specifier tells BACKUP in which save set(s)D to look. BACKUP follows the instructions you give it. It finds thoseE files in that save set(those save sets) and attempts to restore them. F BACKUP does not assume that the files are in strict "directory order".B And nowhere in the (restore) command can you tell BACKUP to assumeD that. So it does follow your instructions as exactly as it can. YourF instructions do not in any way tell BACKUP how to go about finding the7 matching file except in which save set(s) to find them.   E And with your method, given a BACKUP command specifying multiple save F sets, should it stop looking once it found a match (or all matches) orA should it continue to search the remaining save sets for matches?   D You have to be careful to distinguish between "more files" and "more< matching files". The "more files" case is not relevant here.  A > The CLI's "job" is to follow a command's intruction exactly and D > consistently. (Actually, of course, it's the procedure behind the D > CLI, but CLI here for brevity) The operator's "job" is to provide C > the CLI with correct instructions. The operator might not always  % > do a good job, but the CLI should.    A It is consistent. It always checks the entire save set unless you C abort with control-y. That is consistent. It is apparently not what E you want, but it is consistent. Also, the operator should always do a * good job. Well, he should at least try to.  < > If the operator screws up and copies multiple conflicting A > directories and/or files to a save_set, then the operator must  A > construct the proper set of restore procedures to recover them.    Agreed.   D > *** They cannot be recovered correctly with one simple command.***  C I never said they could be. I only said that in cases where this is F likely to happen, it would usually be a simple matter to straighten itE out. It would take a few commands. But simple does not imply a single D command. In fact, simple often implies more commands, as in programsE that determine the day of the week from the date. Which is simpler: a D one line cryptic, complicated expression full of strange numbers andC integer arithmetic, or a mutli-line program with clear logic that's @ easy to follow, and more importantly, easy to verify for correctC operation? And assuming you didn't have the benefit of someone else E providing the single line expression, which would be easier to write? 1 In both cases, the multi-line program, of course.   D > The arguement that we must read the whole save_set because someone@ > might have screwed up and copied multiple conflicting entities? > isn't sound because no mechanisim has been provided in backup % > to properly recover those entities.   A It is if you are worried about missing the "duplicate" files. And B suppose you had such a save set, and you wanted the third matchingB file. How would you do it if /SELECT worked using your method? YouE couldn't do it without either restoring all the files in the save set  or a tedious /CONFIRM session.  D But I think the real reason that BACKUP /SELECT doesn't work the way= you want is either limited engineering resources or the "data D integrity" philosophy. In the first case, since resources are alwaysB limited, VMS Engineering probably did not think it was worth it toC implement your idea for /SELECT. Instead of all the ideas like this = they could have worked on, they chose instead to work on data E integrity, security, VMSclusters, Volume Shadowing, Galaxies, and the ? like. (This is pure speculative subjective opinion here in this : paragraph. Hey, I saw some release notes for VMS 5.5-2 (orE thereabouts) promising to fix SET DEFAULT's bugs in a future release. : Well, as of at least VMS 7.2 Alpha, they haven't done it.)  E In the second case, it appears that the VMS BACKUP philosophy is data A integrity first always (DIFA). The VMS BACKUP engineers appear to B prefer many complaints about time-wasting to even a few complaintsB about missing data. Hence the new incremental scheme, which does a@ better job at restoring a disk to its condition as of the latest; incremental save operation. HOWEVER, because of the obvious D disadvantages of the new incremental scheme, I truly wish they wouldC add another date-time field to files that would be updated, perhaps ; only for .DIR files, whenever that file was renamed so that = subdirectory trees would only be copied in their entirety (in B incremental backups) if that field were later than the backup-dateA field. There is no point copying an entire subdirectory tree just D because you changed the protection on its top-level .DIR file. We'reF already up to 6 date-time fields. Why not one more? Well, it would useA resources, which are now concentrated on the port, I would think.   D Yes, it's a good ideal to strive for: to accomplish a task correctly: in the minimum time. But there's also the KISS philosophy.  D > A perfect system would not let the operator do the wrong thing in E > the first place. However, that being said, as long as the operator  C > is allowed and the command is valid it is the system's "duty" to   > execute the command.  E The system executes the command. The selected files are restored. How  is that not true?   A > No argument yet made has convinced me that ending backup after  @ > a complete file-spec is processed is inconsistent with the way? > everything else works. So, that's the way backup should work.   F The current method is not inconsistent with anything either. Not being' inconsistent does not imply uniqueness.   = Actually, I think what you mean here is that you consider the F advantages of your method more important than the disadvantages. So if> the disadvantages do not bother you, then your method is fine.   > ><snips>  H > > OK. But be sure not to leave any possibility of missing any matching
 > > files! > >  > I > That, of course, would be my job as operator to enter a proper command, * > and trust backup to follow that command.  ? VMS does follow your commands. Use BACKUP /SELECT to choose the E file(s). Add /LOG to see when they are restored. Use CTRL/Y to abort.    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 15:11:22 -0700& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan)J Subject: Re: Current storage interconnect options, and new gigabit option?= Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0210221411.33a7949b@posting.google.com>   h Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<3DB54690.B366298E@mindspring.com>... > Rich Jordan wrote: > F > > Also based on some posts apparently coming out of the recent Decus? > > (yeah, whatever they call it) event, the new 'fast' cluster I > > interconnect is supposed to be a new gigabit ethernet card coming out F > > soon, as opposed to memory channel.  Even assuming that the memoryE > > channel hardware he has could be moved (we're checking, but it ismJ > > first generation MC so I doubt it) we'd prefer to go with new hardwareE > > (again, maintenance and presumed reliability).  Is there any info.* > > available online for the new card yet? > 7 > The "flavor of the month" in storage interconnects isp1 > iSCSI (where SCSI packets are routed over a TCPh1 > network). With Gigabit Ethernet as the physicalm1 > medium, this gives pretty good performance. And/+ > 10GBaseT is about to be standardized! :-)> > 1 > On the lower-end side, Serial ATA is the flavorf2 > of the month. It finally jettisons the awful ATA/ > physical medium in favor of a few-wire serial 1 > physical medium that's software-compatible withf > existing IDE/ATA/ATAPI stuff.  >  > Atlant   Atlant, E      thanks for responding.  Unfortunately we're specifically looking-E for a VMS compatible solution, and in the next few months.  I somehow.A doubt hpaq will spend any effort on serial ATA for Alpha systems, A especially as a shared interconnect... though iSCSI would be very B interesting (and so doubtless unavailable under VMS for quite some time).   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Oct 2002 05:54:39 GMT! From: swmoretp@aol.com (SWMORETP) + Subject: Digital Items on eBay Ending 10/24o9 Message-ID: <20021023015439.28079.00002760@mb-ck.aol.com>0  K We have many Digital related items for sale on eBay that end Thursday nightt 10/24, US west coast time.! You can go to our eBay store at: e www.stores.ebay.com/id=79168N to see the links to each item or search by number or seller swmoretp@aol.com. , 100 Digital UNIX Software Products - 3 CDs   2063336426  Oct-24 19:18:27e+ OpenVMS Utility Routine Manual by Digital  - 2063337645  Oct-24 19:21:510/ Preliminary Ed. VAXcluster Principles-Digital  c 2063338561  Oct-24 19:24:30r( DECsystem-10 Reference Card by Digital   2063339407  Oct-24 19:27:23.- DECsystem-20 EDIT Reference Card by Digital  a 2063340036  Oct-24 19:29:302% pdp-11/23 Reference Card by Digital  i 2063340694  Oct-24 19:31:13.& pdp-11/3 Maintenance Card by Digital   2063342145  Oct-24 19:35:10 $ LSI-11 Maintenance Card by Digital   2063343022  Oct-24 19:37:54'% RT-11 Pocket Guide by Digital (DEC)  f 2063343781  Oct-24 19:40:31 / VAX11/750 Diagnostic Reference Guide, Digital  0 2063344581  Oct-24 19:43:35 / PDP-11 Keypad Editor Reference Card - Digital    2063345395  Oct-24 19:46:13  t TECO Pocket Guide by Digital   2063347643  Oct-24 19:53:35   / TOPS-10/TOPS-20 DDT Reference Card by Digital  , 2063348274  Oct-24 19:55:43  h( OCR Commands Reference Card by Digital   2063348873  Oct-24 19:57:44 , TOPS-20 Commands Reference Card by Digital   2063349373  Oct-24 19:59:40 & TOPS-20 TV Reference Card by Digital   2063349930  Oct-24 20:01:38i& Installation Manual by Digital (DEC)   2063350622  Oct-24 20:03:20  b" DECwrite 2.0 by Digital - NEW     ! 2062650263  -  $14.99  But It Nowt) 4 Digital Technical Journals by Digital  t  2062652297  -  $7.99  But It Now3 Local Area Networks Solutions Guide by Digital        2063084700  -  $7.99  But It Now8 VAX/VMS Internals & Data Structures Book by Digital     ! 2063250335  -  $19.99  But It Nowr  @ We also have this which might be of interest to Digital hardware collectors/hobbyists.l( Wilson SX-530 TTL Based Disk Exerciser  
 1773651219   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:50:10 -0500i7 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com> 1 Subject: Re: Dual ISA ethernet adapter on VMS 7.2aG Message-ID: <craigberry-B5ADED.23501022102002@news.directvinternet.com>c  4 In article <oaet9.91817$gD2.8476184@zwoll1.home.nl>,"  "T.R." <tr303@hotmail.com> wrote:  N > I will soon be the owner af a DEC Alpha AXPpci 33 board, and I'm planning toH > install OpenVMS 7.2 on it. I'm completely new to VMS, but I have a fewK > questions, even before I get the whole thing running. (I haven't even got  > OpenVMS media).E  @ Welcome to comp.os.vms.  You've chosen about the most difficult D possible route to becoming an OpenVMS hobbyist (unless you consider D mucking about with ancient, unsupported hardware the fun part).  At H least some of your questions are answered in the FAQ, so you might want  to start there:   7 <http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.html>r   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:39:11 GMTc" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG+ Subject: Free PointSecure snapshot utility? 0 Message-ID: <00A15D7A.652203ED@SendSpamHere.ORG>  F I was looking about the OpenVMS web site and followed a link to obtain1 PointSecure's Snapshot for OpenVMS VAX and Alpha.o  E When I download it, I get only a single .EXE and it looks like it may D be some PC archive from what I gathered when dumping the image data.G It can't be UNZIPped so it's either corrupted or not a ZIP file.  TherehE is very little information about this product on the PointSecure site C and no information I can find on how it works or how to install it..  E Has anybody here used this thing?  How do I install it on the system?aF It's not of major importantance but I was curious what PointSecure be-- lieves are security risks on a VMS machine.  p   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" .   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Oct 02 00:31:07 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)s/ Subject: Re: Free PointSecure snapshot utility? ) Message-ID: <EGcCzWhummkl@elias.decus.ch>o  U In article <00A15D7A.652203ED@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:.H > I was looking about the OpenVMS web site and followed a link to obtain3 > PointSecure's Snapshot for OpenVMS VAX and Alpha.n > G > When I download it, I get only a single .EXE and it looks like it may F > be some PC archive from what I gathered when dumping the image data.I > It can't be UNZIPped so it's either corrupted or not a ZIP file.  There G > is very little information about this product on the PointSecure sitecE > and no information I can find on how it works or how to install it.t > G > Has anybody here used this thing?  How do I install it on the system?oH > It's not of major importantance but I was curious what PointSecure be-/ > lieves are security risks on a VMS machine.  m >n  A I downloaded it when I first spotted it on the VMS site, and camem9 to a similar conclusion, it must be a Windows executable.e  > It somewhat put me off the product when they are talking about< security and VMS, and want me to run a Windows .EXE, without even the benefit of a checksum.l  , Oh, here's a bit of DUMP on the first block:  ) "This program cannot be run in DOS mode" s  a- Proof, or what, that they haven't got a clue?   8 PS, I might just risk running it on my NT system at homeG to see what happens, preferably with my Internet connection formly off.z- but there's is no way I will do that at work.n    --  
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 16:31:46 -0600  From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> ! Subject: Graphic boards for DS10Le& Message-ID: <3DB5D1D2.4060807@srv.net>  @ I have a change to play with a DS10L for a while, and would like> to put a graphic card in it that will work with VMS.  The only> list of working cards I've seen is in sales brochures, and I'd> prefer to find something cheap (I only have it for a while, so, don't want to make a substantial investment)  9 Is there a list somewhere of what graphic cards will worke4 in a DS10L under VMS, that allow DecWindows to work?? A random S3 VGA card allows me to use the console/keyboard, bute it's not even VT100 capable.  @ Is there a list of cards that work? The VMS FAQ that I find only< talk about older VAX's graphics.  I really like a list I can: carry with me to look in the stores/used equipment dealers if possible.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:57:19 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> = Subject: Re: HP - Why isn't this bank using OpenVMS clusters?i, Message-ID: <3DB59F8F.B8B8C89D@videotron.ca>   Bob Ceculski wrote:sF > HP has stated their intentions over and over ... alpha vms thru 2011G > and itanium vms after that ... if these people are so dense that theyn0 > don't get it, then let them lose their $@! ...  J Is 2011 the earliest that development on Alpha can stop ? I thought it wasO around 2005 timeframe, after which Alpha VMS would be only in maintenance mode.e  3 Has HP promounced itself on the future of VAX-VMS ?.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 14:24:03 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)a= Subject: Re: HP - Why isn't this bank using OpenVMS clusters?o= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0210221324.5409b8a5@posting.google.com>   . JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:L > Is 2011 the earliest that development on Alpha can stop ? I thought it wasL > around 2005 timeframe, after which Alpha VMS would be only in maintenance  > mode.i > 5 > Has HP promounced itself on the future of VAX-VMS ?s  D The statements have been that HP would sell Alpha systems as long asD there is customer demand for them (and that their best guess at thisD point is that customers will continue to buy Alphas at least throughF 2006, although it could turn out to be longer, of course), and that HP@ will support them for at least 5 years after the last-sale date.  F Features have continued to be added to OpenVMS VAX long after the last VAX systems were sold.  B And it's even easier this time around, since instead of a separateF source pool, where it was extra work -- an additional step -- to add aD new feature on the older architecture, the source pool for Alpha and> Itanium is common, so extra work would be required to _omit_ a. newly-added feature on the Alpha architecture.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:13:22 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e= Subject: Re: HP - Why isn't this bank using OpenVMS clusters?c, Message-ID: <3DB5DB92.8503BF9D@videotron.ca>   Keith Parris wrote:t7 > > Has HP promounced itself on the future of VAX-VMS ?  > F > The statements have been that HP would sell Alpha systems as long as1 > there is customer demand for them <etc etc etc>f    4 I didn't ask about Alpha-VMS, I asked about VAX VMS.  M Has HP said anything with regards to continued releases and support for VAX -A	 VMS ?????    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 02:55:00 GMTT# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> = Subject: Re: HP - Why isn't this bank using OpenVMS clusters?sH Message-ID: <8cot9.42830$%h2.16719@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0210220733.6a12879f@posting.google.com... 0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageC news:<kOZs9.34503$Q3S.8695@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...o4 > > Municipal Credit Union Gets Looted $20 At A Time >eG > Despite the fact that dishonest people took advantage of them, I haverH > a great deal of respect for their decision in favor of allowing peopleD > access to their money under very-trying circumstances, despite the" > risk to their assets from fraud. > < > And in actuality, this credit union _does_ use OpenVMS (onG > Alphaservers), but unfortunately they didn't have a disaster-tolerantmD > cluster (or even a remote-shadowing cluster) in place before 9/11.D > That has been remedied.  Today, they are using StorageWorks DRM onD > HSG80s to mirror their data to a remote site a safe distance away,8 > using a 622-megabit link and SAN Valley gateway boxes. >i > For more info, see:r9 > http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2002/0902lessonsside1.htmlt& > http://www.totaltec.com/case_mcu.htm6 > http://www.nwfusion.com/research/2002/1007feat2.htmlA > http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/national/ap_fraud08052002.htm     G Vis-a-vis the last link above.....I wonder when the first civil lawsuit H against a business will be launched by a prosecutor's office in order toJ recover court and other costs related to prosecutions that could have beenJ avoided had that business had a proper disaster recovery plan operational.  5 I'm sure that some hot-shot lawyer will figure a way.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:10:30 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o@ Subject: Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"!, Message-ID: <3DB5A2A4.144DA495@videotron.ca>  4 re: export of USA jobs to China and other countries.  J Back in the days of Digital, Digital decided to build a large call support? centre and PC repair shop in Hull Qubec (across the river fromeG Ottawa/Kanata). Why ? Because in doing so, it was "allowed"  to competehG against IBM for Qubec government contracts since the Qubec governmentiE heavily favoured companies that had investments in its own terrotory.e  < Folks in Ontario probably also saw this as "export of jobs".  K China is very much like that. It is a huge potential market and in order to.N get contracts there, you need to show a significant presence. So in many ways,M it is logical for those companies who intend to sell wares to china to investhD in china and hire local talent etc etc. And yes, it does offer lower- production costs so a company also benefits. s  L In the case of Nortel (when it was a real telephone company), it started offJ with some small token plants in China to get contracts there, but when theK competition for telephone sets heated up, it had no choice but to shift itsoH canadian production lines to china because there was no way the canadian= producted phones could compete against asian produced phones.y  L Again, as soon as something become commodity, then innovation falls in rank,H and lower production costs become the priority. That is what happened toL residential telephones, calculators, TVs, stereos and now starting to happen	 with PCs.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:20:36 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t@ Subject: Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"!, Message-ID: <3DB5A502.556B94DF@videotron.ca>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:E > That isn't quite true. PSION may have dropped out of the PDA marketcE > but its OE EPOC-32 is alive and well and running on a Sony EricssonS- > or Nokia Phone/PDA in many peoples pockets.t  N Or more like "what is left of EPOC". They've dropped the UI portion of the OS,L so that each vendor can build their own user interface look/feel. Also, mostN vendors have also struck deals with Palm, in some cases to produce PAlm phonesK and in others just to incorporate the Palm API into EPOC to make porting of  PAlm applications easy.t  I EPOC-32 had been meant to become very widespread and run the GSM stack oniN phones (it has real time capabilities, like VMS). But it has been relegated toB a few high end phones where EPOC only runs the PDA portion and theC manufacturer,s proprietary software still runs the "phone" portion.t    B > Symbian/EPOC has been very sucessfull in capturing the Phone/PDAB > market and has a much larger coverage than either WinCE/PocketPC > or PalmOS.  L Symbian was succesful in getting the mobile phone companies to invest in it.K But so far, very few products have been produced with EPOC considering thatu7 all of the investment happened in 1997-1998 timeframe. n  J Andrew, I realise you are in the UK where PSION still exists, but when youM look at the north american market, PSION is totally gone and has no presence.UK And in the case of Canada, Nokia's newest EPOC based PDA/phone combo (is it-K the 9210 ?) is useless because it lacks GPRS, and the local GSM company has(P "officially" widthdrawn CSD (call based data) service to push folks to use GPRS.  I Meanwhile, companies like Samsung are advertising their "palm compatible"a
 phones on TV.a  = > My experience of WinCE/PocketPC devices has been less good,@9 > relatively poor reliability, bigger packages and poorerd > battery life.p  F That is to be expected of a bloated Microsoft product. Although in allD fairness, since WINce was first introduced, Microsoft has made major improvements to it.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:29:10 GMTa1 From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie) @ Subject: Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"!< Message-ID: <Gqjt9.194026$121.5403651@twister.austin.rr.com>  . JF Mezei (jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca) wrote:6 : re: export of USA jobs to China and other countries. : F : Again, as soon as something become commodity, then innovation falls H : in rank, and lower production costs become the priority. That is what H : happened to residential telephones, calculators, TVs, stereos and now  : starting to happen with PCs. :I
 And software:t  ,    http://www.nrilinks.com/nrinews/F3118.htm?    Network Associates to invest $15 M in India, develop McAfee u     B   "BANGALORE: Computer security provider Network Associates Inc onG    Thursday launched its Indian software development centre and said iti>    plans to invest $15 million in the unit by the end of 2003.?    The centre will initially develop the firm's flagship McAfeeO    anti-virus products..."  3    http://www.siliconindia.com/tech/tech_pgtwo.asp?y"    newsno=16261&newscat=Technology-    Oracle opens technology park in Bangalore S    tB   "BANGALORE: Oracle India Private Limited, a subsidiary of OracleB    Corporation, today announced that the Oracle Technology Park inA    Bangalore was officially inaugurated by Karnatakas tourism and"0    information technology minister B. D. Inamdar      [...]  I    Oracle's India Development Centres develop every product of the OraclenD    products family from the database, tools, application servers and>    e-business applications. This involves development, productB    management, maintenance, quality engineering, documentation and    release."  
 and medicine:n  C Radiologists in India are being used to interpret xrays of patientstE in U.S. hospitals, thanks to the internet (URL wrapped to two lines):n  0    http://www.siliconindia.com/shownewsdata.asp?"    newsno=16072&newscat=Technology1    India to provide clinical services to the U.S.     eH   "BANGALORE: Harnessing its highly developed information technology andF    medical skills, India will soon provide emergency room services and>    clinical process outsourcing (CPO) to hospitals in the U.S.  G    The first step towards extending remote healthcare services has been H    taken by Indian IT major Wipro's healthcare and life science businessF    division, which has tied up with a major hospital at Massachusetts.C    Images of the radiology scans from the unnamed hospital would be-E    viewed here at the Manipal hospital, which has got the outsourcing F    contract from Wipro. The reports would be sent back in the shortest!    possible time by radiologists.7  F    "Of course the radiologists will be supervised by our professionalsH    who have American medical degrees. They could be Americans or IndiansD    with American degrees. Like business process outsourcing, this isF    clinical process outsourcing," says D.A. Prasanna, vice chairman ofI    Wipro limited and chief executive officer of Wipro healthcare and lifew    science.h  G    The supervisory staff for the CPO would be part of Team Wipro, whichsD    would set up a center for excellence shortly here in India's techG    capital. "Our next step would in areas like pathology and cardiology @    as well as emergency room services soon," Prasanna told IANS.  F    "There are two challenges that hospitals face in the U.S. One is ofF    productivity and the other is of clinical process. The hospital, inE    fact, has 650 IT professionals in the hospital and they may not be'I    replaced if they leave. We will be filling up the gap for the hospital     from here..."  7 The unnamed hospital is Massachusetts General Hospital.   2 This practice is known as offshore teleradiology :  I    http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/cgi-bin/webcast01/display_news.cgi?851>    Offshore teleradiology could help solve U.S. staffing needs    hD   "Links with offshore teleradiology could be a way to meet staffing>    needs in a tight radiologist market, according to a pair of0    presentations at the RSNA meeting Tuesday..."    0, which is suppose to solve staffing problems:  D    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=9101731L    City radiologist is tele-consultant for US hospitals - The Times of India&                                       	    [snip]2  <   "The obvious question is why and how the US is benefiting?  H    "There is an explosion in emergency coverage during nights, and thereI    is a 20 per cent shortage in radiology workforce in the US. Night call G    radiologists are expensive there. The idea is to exploit global time G    difference as a way to turn their night into my day. It is effectivedI    cost wise and gives me the opportunity to contribute to emergency care (    across the world," Kalyanpur says..."    2 --Jerry Leslie   (my opinions are strictly my own)9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for emailn   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 16:21:27 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)@ Subject: Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0210221521.6fa82956@posting.google.com>   n "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<LEdt9.15$SL.413787@news.cpqcorp.net>...4 > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message' > <3DB55BDB.8060907@nospamn.sun.com>...  > 8 > Do you really believe (or read) any of what you write?  = he probably does ... alot people today are brain dead and cann be brainwashed very easily ...   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 20:32:54 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)z) Subject: Just bought an RA8000, now what?b- Message-ID: <hPmVdZRrrFNL@malvm7.mala.bc.ca.>   ; OK, I couldn't help myself. Somebody was auctioning off twot; dual controller RA8000s on eBay for $1000 each, so I boughtP them.4  6 Now I need to figure out what to do with them. For now7 I plan to use the parts out of one to upgrade an RA7000e8 and keep the other for spares ( I didn't take the BA370s> because of the high shipping costs ). I'll want to use it with4 VMS. Are there particular versions of ACS I'll need?/ Does VMS support FC-AL ( or will it be doing so 9 in the near future) or do I need a switch? Any particular 6 host adapter I should get? I see KGPSA-BCs on eBay for" pretty low prices, will they work?  6 The main objective at the moment is just to learn more3 about FC and SANs, but I hope to put this gear into5 production eventually.  M =============================================================================cB Malcolm Dunnett      Malaspina University-College   Email: dunnettE                                                      Host: mala.bc.ca H Information Systems  Nanaimo, B.C. CANADA V9R 5S5     Tel: (250)740-6297   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:12:48 +0200-6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>! Subject: Re: Micro$oft propagandai) Message-ID: <3DB59520.4080604@vajhoej.dk>a  E > I cannot give you a reference as my company no longer allows me to 1H > access the internet.  All my work is on VMS for our engineering users K > and they use Billy-boy's authentication so I no longer can access www or  K > even FTP.  (After losing my zzz sub-domain directly to my VMS account, I  H > have to use Mozilla to access a stupid Outlook account -- this I have I > been told [gleefully by our anti-VMS PHB brigade] will also shortly be hD > taken from me.  My demise from Info-VAX is becoming more and more  > imminent.)  - Get a hobbyist system and a xDSL connection !u   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Oct 02 00:02:22 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)M! Subject: Re: Micro$oft propaganda ) Message-ID: <XTl79K4ubWFN@elias.decus.ch>   b In article <3DB59520.4080604@vajhoej.dk>, Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:F >> I cannot give you a reference as my company no longer allows me to I >> access the internet.  All my work is on VMS for our engineering users  L >> and they use Billy-boy's authentication so I no longer can access www or L >> even FTP.  (After losing my zzz sub-domain directly to my VMS account, I I >> have to use Mozilla to access a stupid Outlook account -- this I have  J >> been told [gleefully by our anti-VMS PHB brigade] will also shortly be E >> taken from me.  My demise from Info-VAX is becoming more and more ,
 >> imminent.): > / > Get a hobbyist system and a xDSL connection !A >  > Arne >    Good advice Arne!g   -- h
 Paul Sture Switzerlandg   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 14:11:30 -0400- From: Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com>e" Subject: Re: NCDware for OpenVMS ?. Message-ID: <mddadl6738t.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  0 peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:  L > In article <3DB4607F.EF42582@uiowa.edu>, Rick Dyson <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu>	 > writes:n   >> Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:.  G >>> Does anyone know which version of NCDware was the latest/newest fors >>> OpenVMS?  K > I got a mail from NCD which states NCDware V4.1.141 as the latest for the O > OpenVMS platform, while V5.1.140 is the current version (without VMS support)s  M I'm still not sure what it means for NCDware to support OpenVMS.  Like I saidOM in my other response, I've got *TOPS-20* systems supporting Exploras, and NCDs$ certainly never "supported" Tops-20!  ? So what is it that you are looking for that 5.1.140 doesn't do?a  N >>> I have NCDware V3.3.2 but this version seems older (1994) than my recentlyJ >>> acquired NCD ExploraPro(XQ) (or NCD Xplora or NCD Explorapro - I don'tM >>> understand why this thing has three different names written on it) and soD= >>> it seems that it doesn't support my 'new' X11-terminal...2  O >> Is this different than NCBridge?  The software on a server for NCD/TektronixeG >> X Terminals?  I believe there is a v4.x of NCBridge.  Note, NCBridgeh* >> replaced the old Tektronix eXpressWare.  B > I don't know neither NCBridge nor eXpressWare but thanks anyway. > Did/do they run on OpenVMS ?  M If you have Exploras, it doesn't matter whether NCBridge runs on any platformdL you have, since it is the software for an entirely different line of Xterms,K the NC900 family, which NCD bought from Tektronix and rebranded.  Different.L hardware, different processor family, different everything (and I don't like them or their software a bit).  O > So, to rephrase: Does anyone know how to obtain NCDware V4.1.141 (for free) ?   O Last 4.1.nnn I'm aware of was 4.1.129 or so; the edit numbers increase monoton-eO ically, like DEC's did.  But it wouldn't surprise me if someone at NCD told youlO otherwise--NCD even bought Tek's tech support, who know (next to) nothing aboutb the NCD product line.n   --  N Rich Alderson                                          alderson+news@panix.comL   "You get what anybody gets.  You get a lifetime."  --Death, of the Endless   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:24:39 GMTa. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)" Subject: Re: NCDware for OpenVMS ?5 Message-ID: <rmjt9.123583$N_6.1784687@news.chello.at>t  ^ In article <mddadl6738t.fsf@panix5.panix.com>, Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com> writes:1 >peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:tL >> I got a mail from NCD which states NCDware V4.1.141 as the latest for theP >> OpenVMS platform, while V5.1.140 is the current version (without VMS support) >vN >I'm still not sure what it means for NCDware to support OpenVMS.  Like I saidN >in my other response, I've got *TOPS-20* systems supporting Exploras, and NCD% >certainly never "supported" Tops-20!0 >0@ >So what is it that you are looking for that 5.1.140 doesn't do?  J NCDware as I know it is a VMSINSTALlable kit (at least a decade ago, might4 became PCSI kits later on but I doubt) which offered   a) NCD boot image  b) NCD font server a c) NCD XDM server   J and maybe something else (it is more than a decade ago since I once playedJ with NCDware, but I liked it cause of XDM). And all 3 of them with DECnet,  TCPIP and LAT network protocols.  I Now a XDM server is no longer neccessary as VMS/TCPIP/DECwindows does nownG have one itself and I hope the font server is also no longer neccessaryD4 but I don't know for sure. This is my first Explora.  K So. I assume the NCD boot image is identical in the different platform kits-H (though I'm not sure) but how to extract it (if you don't know how it is named) and so on.o  P >> So, to rephrase: Does anyone know how to obtain NCDware V4.1.141 (for free) ? >kP >Last 4.1.nnn I'm aware of was 4.1.129 or so; the edit numbers increase monoton-P >ically, like DEC's did.  But it wouldn't surprise me if someone at NCD told youP >otherwise--NCD even bought Tek's tech support, who know (next to) nothing about >the NCD product line.  - You mean he has imagined the version number ?eE I don't know whether said person is a specialist or a Non-NCD-person,d% but I take what I can get for free...i   Thanks   -- r Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERt% Network and OpenVMS system specialistu E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:55:06 GMTa/ From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks)e% Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWINGa- Message-ID: <mSwf4cPKYSVv@cuebid.zko.dec.com>   ;  "Carlos Costa" <carlos.costa@datawest.ca> wrote in messageu9 > news:7edc7395.0210220742.6bd0ce68@posting.google.com...t > F > This problem is also disconcerting because 7.3-1 has, in HP/Compaq's@ > own words, "100% binary compatibility with previous versions".  D Are you the person who contacted the support centre?  If so, did you get a response to your report?  K I've seen this problem discussed on our internal Notes system.  The problem-E *appears* to be a poorly-written application with some rather glaring=I coding errors.  That it worked at all in the past is somewhat surprising.p   -- n  M Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 07:16:21 +0200h1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>M9 Subject: OT:  Shoulder injuries (was Any news from Sue ?)n5 Message-ID: <3DB630A4.CD4FCA3B@swissonline.delete.ch>    "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  ... F > *OUCH*!!!! "Frozen shoulder"? I've heard of "the cold shoulder", but > that's a new one on me...   H My father had a injured shoulder recently and the physiotherapist gave aF good explanation of tis "frozen shoulder" effect.  Any shoulder injuryF causes fluid to build up within the shouder joint.  Normally any extraG fluid is dispersed by movement but when the shoulder is rested after ann9 injury the fluid thickens until it is almost like a glue.r  D The important thing in a shoulder injury is to exercise it gently toE stop the fluid building up.  As Sue has said, waiting until after the>C fluid has thickened means that you will require major treatment ande painful exercise.s  H Still, she's doing better than an elderly aunt of mine who had a similarB problem and now has trouble raising her elbow above her shoulder. A Simple tasks like brushing one's hair become extremely difficult.      cheers   John McLean    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:27:43 +0800M+ From: "Kenneth" <yeung_kenneth@hotmail.com>  Subject: page or pagelet* Message-ID: <ap41pv$t0g1@rain.i-cable.com>  I In VMS 7.2-1, Alpha 8400. Does any on know when I do a mon page, the freeoJ page list and the modified page list shown is in the unit of page (8KB) or pagelet (512K)?u   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:10:18 GMTt" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: page or pagelet0 Message-ID: <00A15D65.98CDBFDF@SendSpamHere.ORG>  X In article <ap41pv$t0g1@rain.i-cable.com>, "Kenneth" <yeung_kenneth@hotmail.com> writes:J >In VMS 7.2-1, Alpha 8400. Does any on know when I do a mon page, the freeK >page list and the modified page list shown is in the unit of page (8KB) or> >pagelet (512K)? >t >    Hmm.  Let's see.  ! When I do it on my system, I see:5   $ MONITOR PAGE3                             OpenVMS Monitor Utilityu6                            PAGE MANAGEMENT STATISTIICS   :eK                                        CUR        AVE        MIN        MAXi   : K     Free List Size               237273.00  237273.59  237273.00  237276.00 K     Modified List Size              350.00     350.00     350.00     350.00a     Then, if I issue:c   $ SHOW MEMORY/PHYSICAL@               System Memory Resources on 22-OCT-2002 15:05:49.40  L Physical Memory Usage (pages):     Total        Free      In Use    ModifiedL   Main Memory (2048.00Mb)         262144      237442       24353         349  N Of the physical pages in use, 5523 pages are permanently allocated to OpenVMS.      1 It would look to me to be a page of 8K.  (2GB/8K)c    % FYI, a pagelet is 512 bytes not 512K.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             t5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" e   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Oct 2002 23:19 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)w Subject: Re: PCL image- Message-ID: <22OCT200223190777@gerg.tamu.edu>   ? "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes...d7 }>so far I received a JPG (will never work on an Alpha). } M }Not true.  XV (freeware) on an Alpha running OpenVMS will display JPEG filespK }just fine.  It will also convert between GIF, JPEG, Postscript, TIFF, PBM,D }BMP, and other formats. }--0B }Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com  I For that matter, most of the web browsers on VMS (except Lynx, of course)BH including the Netscape that comes with recent versions of Alpha VMS will work just fine with jpegs.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:09:49 GMT-> From: andekl_no@saaf_spam.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_Ekl=F6f?=) Subject: Re: read QuickTime?: Message-ID: <1fkh9j6.wszba4642d2kN%andekl_no@saaf_spam.se>  . Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote:   > Anders Eklf wrote:4 > > 2 > > Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote: > > 0 > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 (Macintosh; U; PPC) > >  > > > JF Mezei wrote:c > > > >1 > > > ../..3M > > > > Your best bet right now is to buy a MAC and NFS to the VMS machine soe, > > > > that the mac can read the .MOV file. > > >1M > > > r u kiddin' JF, I do have a Mac. I'm an IT professional, you see. I usegM > > > professional tools, not do-it-yourself toys for OS computer programming F > > > maniacs and IT managers who follow stupidely the flow of sheeps. > >  > > LOL :-9g >  > Thanks :-)P > I admit that this one was one of my bests. "Pure DTL" would say my old friends > at DEC...5 >  > D.  * I'm perfectly comfy with you using a Mac, + but how can you use Netscape for news ? :-)r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 07:58:53 +0200C- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>  Subject: Re: read QuickTime?' Message-ID: <3DB63A9E.8EF05E22@Free.fr>    Anders Eklf wrote:  > + > I'm perfectly comfy with you using a Mac, - > but how can you use Netscape for news ? :-)5  P Well, I got the use of it. I use the NS newsreader since I participate in UsenetN news. And I hate utluque. But I was considering precisely this morning to moveK to MacSoup. The problem with MacSoup is that there is no "REPLY" button :-)    D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:07:35 +1000e1 From: "Malcolm Wade" <malcolm.wade@bikerider.com>-/ Subject: SANworks Management Appliance question02 Message-ID: <20021023020735.80471.qmail@iname.com>  ? Not a VMS question I know but maybe someone out there can help.s   I've been using a SANworks Management Appliance for a while now to manage my growing SAN.  The management appliance is running latest SP as is Network View.  F The appliance is fine but I've been seeing issues of late with Network View, in particular it  5 (1) reporting HSG's unavailable when they're not and w (2) the performance/data logging functions shutting down silently.  These seem to just restart again at a later time, sometimes after an appliance reboot, sometimes it just seems to restart (not very scientific I know).s  iLocal HP support have sugested I reload the entire OS etc from the recovery disk but of course this will mean I loose all that valuable performance history data I have been collecting over the past months.  Sure I can save this database somewhere but does anyone have an idea as to how I can reload this back into main database.  HP are saying it can't be done.n  F I like the product but some of these 'features' are starting to really annoy me.  We tend to start ignoring 'HSG down' messages which of course meant we missed a real 'HSG crash and reboot' the other week.  7 I'd love to hear of others experience with the product.i   Thanks in advance, Malcolm    -- g: __________________________________________________________9 Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com  http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Oct 2002 22:37 CDTh' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) # Subject: Re: Soft CPU Affinity: off - Message-ID: <22OCT200222373610@gerg.tamu.edu>   - "Steven Xie" <r33300@email.mot.com> writes...b- }This is a multi-part message in MIME format.    Mimes are evil.p  H }I recently upgrade my system from V7.2-1 to V7.3 (ES40, 2CPUs). After =H }the upgrade, when I show process status it always shows like following, } C }  22-OCT-2002 15:09:43.00   User: SYSTEM           Process ID:   =@	 }0000159B.H }                            Node: MTPAN            Process name: "XIES" } 2 }  Terminal:           NTY1632:  ([10.192.154.94]) }  User Identifier:    [XIES], }  Base priority:      4' }  Default file spec:  USER_DISK:[XIES]p }  Number of Kthreads: 1 } % }  Devices allocated:  MTPAN$NTY1632:t }  }  Soft CPU Affinity: off  } J }I'm kind of confused by the last line (soft CPU Affinity: off), is this =; }the new feature of OS V7.3 or something wrong behind this?d }  }Thanks for your time. }Stevene  F On your old V7.2-1 system it was in there if you did a SHOW PROC/FULL,C but just as "Soft Affinity", in between the "Image Dump" and "Parsen
 Style" lines.   H Looks like a slight change to the displayed text, and showing it without the /FULL qualifier.  E The ability to associate a process with a specific processor has beene there for quite a while.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:22:47 GMTe1 From: "Jerry Alan Braga" <jerry.braga@rogers.com>u) Subject: TCPIP 5.3 and SMTP authorization I Message-ID: <rZlt9.49377$mxk1.46194@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>a  H How can I tell SMTP to use USERNAME/PASSWORD authorization.  My personalG account ISP makes me check the outgoing mail server check box to supply H username/password authentication.  It would the same used for POP.  ThisL would put an additional check on SMTP to stop spamming and bouncing/relay of email for an invalid source.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:28:30 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-- Subject: Re: TCPIP 5.3 and SMTP authorization , Message-ID: <3DB5FB3C.AD35DD49@videotron.ca>   Jerry Alan Braga wrote:0 > J > How can I tell SMTP to use USERNAME/PASSWORD authorization.  My personalI > account ISP makes me check the outgoing mail server check box to supplyw# > username/password authentication.a   In the SMTP standard: D ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/std/std10.txt   (formerly RFC821 )* or the newer RFCs with service extensions:- ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc2821.txtw  J All that is changed is the EHLO command which seems to be identical to the& HELO command. No username or password.  7 There is no mention of username/password authorisation..    M If your ISP doesn't like your SMTP server, why not bypass him alltogether getd2 VMS's SMTP server deliver your messages directly ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:54:09 -0400-* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>- Subject: Re: Technical Question -- Thank you!e2 Message-ID: <8xGdndQ56dOeSiigXTWc3g@metrocast.net>  = "Andrew Dodd" <Andrew.J.Dodd@HP.spamfreecom> wrote in message8* news:SJat9.7$sz.197781@news.cpqcorp.net...G > As a general point a half full disk will only seek over a part of thenK > surface and one might see better seek times than for a "full" drive where 2 > I/O requests could land anywhere on the surface.  E The tacit assumption you're making being that the data on the disk isdL compacted (as it would be after a defragmentation) rather than scattered (as7 it would be after just freeing up space via deletions).-    Of course to be sure-L > whether this is better or worse would demand knowledge of block allocation > and so on. >jJ > However many people believe that a half full disk performs better than a > full one.3  K Even if the data has been compacted, hardly enough to be worth the waste oftI storage space.  An average (1/3 stroke) seek on a modern disk takes placetG completely in the acceleration/deceleration region of the arm assembly,nJ which means that if you halve the average seek distance by using only halfH the disk surface (a slight simplification, due to zoning) you reduce theL average seek time by less than 30% - and don't affect the rotational latencyH at all, hence reduce the average *access* time by less than 20% - and ifL your accesses are at all large, the contribution of transfer time makes yourE actual performance improvement even less than that.  Since storage isnG usually a fairly expensive component of a system, and since performance.L differences of 10% - 15% are not particularly noticeable in most situations,I that seems like a questionable trade-off in the absence of hard deadlinesrD that just happen to fall into that small timing region - though it'sB understandable why a vendor might like to encourage such a policy.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:21:32 +0530c4 From: Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com> Subject: TPU port to LinuxI Message-ID: <8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C2606E167A@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>.   Hi all,d. Is there a port of EVE or EDT for Unix/Linux. L Using Emacs / Vi is very cumbersome.  BTW, do Digital unix users have to use Vi or do they use EVE?   Thanks & regards,  Tadimeti Kesav KEANE INDIA Ltd.
 E9 - E12, SDF  NEPZ NOIDA - 201 305A
 U.P, INDIA   Telefon: +91-120-456 8210 (211) % e-mail: kesav_tadimeti@keaneindia.coma   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Oct 2002 21:19:18 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>= Subject: Re: turn a PWS600au to a (nearly) real multimedia PCs* Message-ID: <ap4fcm0f6@enews2.newsguy.com>  # DTL <Didier.Morandi@free.fr> wrote:n > CD audio player>  J Try 'xmcd' from http://www.ibiblio.org/tkan/xmcd/ I've no idea how well it3 works on OpenVMS, but it is supposed to support it.h   > DVD player  H I don't see you finding this for VMS.  For that matter what OS's besidesL MacOS and Windows have one (I think Linux might have a commercial one now). F As far as I know, the only legal way to get a DVD Player is to license certain algorithims.   		Zane   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:34:29 -0700 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>= Subject: RE: turn a PWS600au to a (nearly) real multimedia PCh0 Message-ID: <01C279E0.9EDC7B40@sulfer.icius.com>  C Yup. People have been prosecuted over writing DVD decoding softwareeE without the algorithm owner's permission. I may be wrong, but I thinks that's the RIAA.   Shaney   -----Original Message-----7 From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com]i' Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:19 PMa To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com.= Subject: Re: turn a PWS600au to a (nearly) real multimedia PC0    # DTL <Didier.Morandi@free.fr> wrote:t > CD audio playerh  G Try 'xmcd' from http://www.ibiblio.org/tkan/xmcd/ I've no idea how wello it3 works on OpenVMS, but it is supposed to support it.i   > DVD player  H I don't see you finding this for VMS.  For that matter what OS's besidesE MacOS and Windows have one (I think Linux might have a commercial one  now). F As far as I know, the only legal way to get a DVD Player is to license certain algorithims.   		Zane   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 15:30:38 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a6 Subject: Re: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how?3 Message-ID: <lZaT0vzZlwgr@eisner.encompasserve.org>M  a In article <a4qaru8864ssg3rsen21o0bh44370llnes@4ax.com>, David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> writes:oF > I got this question from an application person in our company who isE > trying to VEST some images which are, apparently, written in DEC C.o  2 As you found out, the infrastructure is not there.  E At the time VEST was built, the only legacy C programs were in VAX C.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:47:58 GMTo. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)6 Subject: Re: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how?5 Message-ID: <iIjt9.123834$N_6.1796446@news.chello.at>i  c In article <lZaT0vzZlwgr@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:eb >In article <a4qaru8864ssg3rsen21o0bh44370llnes@4ax.com>, David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> writes:G >> I got this question from an application person in our company who isdF >> trying to VEST some images which are, apparently, written in DEC C. >t3 >As you found out, the infrastructure is not there.s > F >At the time VEST was built, the only legacy C programs were in VAX C.  L There is a newer version of VEST so maybe one should try the latest/greatest  @ 	http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsva.html  9 and see if the problem changes or goes away completely...    -- , Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERe% Network and OpenVMS system specialistn E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:06:52 -0400-& From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>6 Subject: Re: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how?8 Message-ID: <l6tbrukv5pqmkc4pk4ps6moob48gbcgj3h@4ax.com>  = On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:47:58 GMT, peter@langstoeger.at (Petern LANGSTOEGER) wrote:o  d >In article <lZaT0vzZlwgr@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:c >>In article <a4qaru8864ssg3rsen21o0bh44370llnes@4ax.com>, David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> writes:lH >>> I got this question from an application person in our company who isG >>> trying to VEST some images which are, apparently, written in DEC C.a >>4 >>As you found out, the infrastructure is not there. >>G >>At the time VEST was built, the only legacy C programs were in VAX C.r > M >There is a newer version of VEST so maybe one should try the latest/greatest  > A >	http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsva.htmln >(: >and see if the problem changes or goes away completely...  B My test was done with OMSVA V1.2. As far as I can see, it can't be? done, based on Larry's post. The missing .IIF files must be then$ "infrastructure" to which he refers.  C After reading these posts, I looked for the Release Notes for OMSVA # V1.2, and found the following item:k           3.14.6 DEC C  F            Applications written in C and compiled with DEC C compiler <            (linked against DECC$CRTL) cannot be translated. F            To migrate such applications, you must recompile the source7            code and relink on an OpenVMS Alpha Systems.lI ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot combI Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only) I -------------------------------------------------------------------------a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:58:37 -0700r# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>a6 Subject: RE: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how?9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEEIFPAA.tom@kednos.com>b   >-----Original Message-----a. >From: David M Smith [mailto:dsmit115@csc.com]( >Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 6:07 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com7 >Subject: Re: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how?t >  >-> >On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:47:58 GMT, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter >LANGSTOEGER) wrote: >.6 >>In article <lZaT0vzZlwgr@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 >Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:D >>>In article <a4qaru8864ssg3rsen21o0bh44370llnes@4ax.com>, David M ! >Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> writes: I >>>> I got this question from an application person in our company who isaH >>>> trying to VEST some images which are, apparently, written in DEC C. >>>u5 >>>As you found out, the infrastructure is not there.n >>> H >>>At the time VEST was built, the only legacy C programs were in VAX C. >>? >>There is a newer version of VEST so maybe one should try the i >latest/greatest >>B >>	http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsva.html >>; >>and see if the problem changes or goes away completely...  >TC >My test was done with OMSVA V1.2. As far as I can see, it can't be @ >done, based on Larry's post. The missing .IIF files must be the% >"infrastructure" to which he refers.f >'D >After reading these posts, I looked for the Release Notes for OMSVA$ >V1.2, and found the following item: >n >        3.14.6 DEC Co > G >           Applications written in C and compiled with DEC C compiler e= >           (linked against DECC$CRTL) cannot be translated.  G >           To migrate such applications, you must recompile the sourcec8 >           code and relink on an OpenVMS Alpha Systems.  D FWIW, Seems to me you could also recompile withj VAXC and then VEST.    J >-------------------------------------------------------------------------J >David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot comJ >Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)J >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >i >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.t; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).wB >Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 >n ---7& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002i   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 22:40:35 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen).6 Subject: Re: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how?3 Message-ID: <wB74JqBOfDb1@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  a In article <l6tbrukv5pqmkc4pk4ps6moob48gbcgj3h@4ax.com>, David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> writes:a  D > My test was done with OMSVA V1.2. As far as I can see, it can't beA > done, based on Larry's post. The missing .IIF files must be theh& > "infrastructure" to which he refers.  J Not just the .IIF files, but the mumble_TV.EXE files which they reference.E Try DIRECTORY SYS$SHARE:*_TV.EXE to see the variety of ways differents* languages are handled.  It is not trivial.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 22:42:00 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a6 Subject: RE: VEST-ing DEC C images -- anyone know how?3 Message-ID: <DBQgwqru54ZL@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEEIFPAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:e  F > FWIW, Seems to me you could also recompile withj VAXC and then VEST.  1 Only if the code was written for /STANDARD=VAXC .a  7 Also, a common reason for VESTing is "lost the source".o   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 13:22:21 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org4 Subject: Re: Why does this file-spec work only once?3 Message-ID: <nsQoMZfr3i0X@eisner.encompasserve.org>f  m In article <b096a4ee.0210220908.34ec037@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:hr > Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<3DB456F0.DA6C4AAE@eps.zko.dec.com>... >> "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:  >> : >> > Hello,t >> >H >> > Why does a file-spec containing "password" as shown below cause theG >> > second (and all subsequent) lexical functions that use it to fail?d >> yG >> That's done just to punish you for selecting a silly password (sic).  > [...]  > ! > Thanks for your rapid response!S > F > I had abbreviated my description of the problem too much. That sillyF > password was the result of using F$SEARCH on a file-spec. So, in theC > interest of brevity and wanting to narrow it down to the smallestfD > possible code example that demonstrated the problem, I thought I'dD > just skip that part. Anyhow, please let me restate my problem more
 > completely.e >  > Check out this example:, >  >  e > ABCDE$ TYPE WB2.COMh > $    ON WARNING THEN EXIT  > $    NODE_INT = 1  > $    NODE_NAME = "ABCDE" > $    CODE = A !  > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC =d1 > NODE_NAME+CODE+"::FTTOP:UPDATE_''NODE_INT'.LOG" 7 > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE = F$SEARCH(UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC)t7 > $    SEARCH 'UPDATE_LOG_FILE' BEGIN,MANAGER/MATCH=AND 5 > $    SEARCH 'UPDATE_LOG_FILE' "BEGIN NODE FUNCTION"r > ABCDE$
 > ABCDE$ @WB2e > $    ON WARNING THEN EXITm > $    NODE_INT = 1n > $    NODE_NAME = "ABCDE" > $    CODE = A !OC > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC = NODE_NAME+CODE+"::FTTOP:UPDATE_1.LOG"j7 > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE = F$SEARCH(UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC)y; > $    SEARCH ABCDE"FT password"::_DSA2:[FT]UPDATE_1.LOG;19c > BEGIN,MANAGER/MATCH=ANDk; >     "GVT" Update Data Base Manager Begin Node Function...LG > $    SEARCH ABCDE"FT password"::_DSA2:[FT]UPDATE_1.LOG;19 "BEGIN NODEn > FUNCTION"3* > %SEARCH-W-OPENIN, error opening ABCDE"FT/ > password"::_DSA2:[FT]UPDATE_1.LOG;19 as inputr1 > -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup failedb> > -SYSTEM-F-INVLOGIN, login information invalid at remote node! > %SEARCH-E-NOFILE, no file foundt > ABCDE$ >  -6 > OK. WHY does it fail for the second SEARCH command?   = Because you have discovered a security hole in DECnet on VMS.R  B Since you have specified incorrect access control information, the: first SEARCH should fail as well.  But instead, it uses an< existing DECnet FAL listener process on the remote node that= that should have reverted to the idle process state after thet F$SEARCH terminated.   >  p( > Now, if I "refresh" the symbol thusly: >  s > ABCDE$ TYPE WB2.REFRESHi > $    ON WARNING THEN EXITi > $    NODE_INT = 1e > $    NODE_NAME = "ABCDE" > $    CODE = A !S > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC =d1 > NODE_NAME+CODE+"::FTTOP:UPDATE_''NODE_INT'.LOG"?7 > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE = F$SEARCH(UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC)B7 > $    SEARCH 'UPDATE_LOG_FILE' BEGIN,MANAGER/MATCH=AND F > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE = F$SEARCH(UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC)!Refresh symbol5 > $    SEARCH 'UPDATE_LOG_FILE' "BEGIN NODE FUNCTION". > ABCDE$ > ABCDE$ @ WB2.REFRESH > $    ON WARNING THEN EXIT= > $    NODE_INT = 1a > $    NODE_NAME = "ABCDE" > $    CODE = A ! C > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC = NODE_NAME+CODE+"::FTTOP:UPDATE_1.LOG" 7 > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE = F$SEARCH(UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC)N; > $    SEARCH ABCDE"FT password"::_DSA2:[FT]UPDATE_1.LOG;19- > BEGIN,MANAGER/MATCH=AND ; >     "GVT" Update Data Base Manager Begin Node Function...rF > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE = F$SEARCH(UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC)!Refresh symbolG > $    SEARCH ABCDE"FT password"::_DSA2:[FT]UPDATE_1.LOG;19 "BEGIN NODEo > FUNCTION"s; >     "GVT" Update Data Base Manager Begin Node Function...u> > Message  : "Update DBM begin node function. P1=FT_UPDDBM_ID" > ABCDE$ >  c > it works fine.   > , > So, why do I have to "refresh" the symbol?  : You're not refreshing the symbol.  You're creating another: remote DECnet process on the far end node.  Or pushing oneD into the "will accept improperly authenticated connections" state at	 any rate.s   	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 17:16:54 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)4 Subject: Re: Why does this file-spec work only once?= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0210221616.3d8919e6@posting.google.com>p  Y briggs@encompasserve.org wrote in message news:<nsQoMZfr3i0X@eisner.encompasserve.org>...jo > In article <b096a4ee.0210220908.34ec037@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: t > > Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<3DB456F0.DA6C4AAE@eps.zko.dec.com>... > >> "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:l > >> a
 > >> > Hello,  > >> >J > >> > Why does a file-spec containing "password" as shown below cause theI > >> > second (and all subsequent) lexical functions that use it to fail?b [...]d > > Check out this example:H > >  d > > ABCDE$ TYPE WB2.COM  > > $    ON WARNING THEN EXITo > > $    NODE_INT = 1m > > $    NODE_NAME = "ABCDE" > > $    CODE = A !t > > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC = 3 > > NODE_NAME+CODE+"::FTTOP:UPDATE_''NODE_INT'.LOG"u9 > > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE = F$SEARCH(UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC) 9 > > $    SEARCH 'UPDATE_LOG_FILE' BEGIN,MANAGER/MATCH=ANDe7 > > $    SEARCH 'UPDATE_LOG_FILE' "BEGIN NODE FUNCTION"g
 > > ABCDE$ > > ABCDE$ @WB2. > > $    ON WARNING THEN EXIT. > > $    NODE_INT = 1w > > $    NODE_NAME = "ABCDE" > > $    CODE = A !,E > > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC = NODE_NAME+CODE+"::FTTOP:UPDATE_1.LOG"w9 > > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE = F$SEARCH(UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC) = > > $    SEARCH ABCDE"FT password"::_DSA2:[FT]UPDATE_1.LOG;19  > > BEGIN,MANAGER/MATCH=AND = > >     "GVT" Update Data Base Manager Begin Node Function...hI > > $    SEARCH ABCDE"FT password"::_DSA2:[FT]UPDATE_1.LOG;19 "BEGIN NODEs
 > > FUNCTION" , > > %SEARCH-W-OPENIN, error opening ABCDE"FT1 > > password"::_DSA2:[FT]UPDATE_1.LOG;19 as inputr3 > > -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup failed @ > > -SYSTEM-F-INVLOGIN, login information invalid at remote node# > > %SEARCH-E-NOFILE, no file foundv
 > > ABCDE$ > >  (8 > > OK. WHY does it fail for the second SEARCH command?  > ? > Because you have discovered a security hole in DECnet on VMS.n > D > Since you have specified incorrect access control information, the< > first SEARCH should fail as well.  But instead, it uses an> > existing DECnet FAL listener process on the remote node that? > that should have reverted to the idle process state after theB > F$SEARCH terminated.   Thanks for your reply.  F Sorry, perhaps I should have said I was using the correct password, as8 I was. Here is what happens with the incorrect password:   ABCDE$ ABCDE$ A = """FT WRONG"""n ABCDE$ @WB2d $    ON WARNING THEN EXIT  $    NODE_INT = 1i $    NODE_NAME = "ABCDE" $    CODE = A !aA $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC = NODE_NAME+CODE+"::FTTOP:UPDATE_1.LOG"a5 $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE = F$SEARCH(UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC)g$ $    SEARCH  BEGIN,MANAGER/MATCH=AND@ %DCL-W-INSFPRM, missing command parameters - supply all required
 parameters ABCDE$   [...]    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Oct 2002 15:25:29 -0700( From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut), Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!< Message-ID: <c5cf6e8.0210221425.6d1d4246@posting.google.com>  ] Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com> wrote in message news:<uqn0rk3etbr4e7@corp.supernews.com>...x > David J. Dachtera wrote: > > Jon wrote: > > I > >>Having just come back from HPETS, HP reports that they will sell them J > >>until 2006 and support them until 2011.  VMS is expected to be out for > >>the Itanium by Q3-'03. > >  > > K > > ...and production-quality, ready-for-prime-time Itanics will be out ...7	 > > when?i > F > I've got one right in front of me - a zx2000 workstation running Red > Hat Linux.   Does it look like this?>  , http://home.freiepresse.de/befis/zx2000.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:25:19 -0700e$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>, Subject: RE: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!0 Message-ID: <01C279DF.48F922B0@sulfer.icius.com>  . Mwahahahaha!!!!! Thanks, you just made my day.   -----Original Message-----8 From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com [mailto:baby_p_nut@yahoo.com]' Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:25 PMw To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComS, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!    1 Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com> wrote in message)+ news:<uqn0rk3etbr4e7@corp.supernews.com>...D > David J. Dachtera wrote: > > Jon wrote: > > I > >>Having just come back from HPETS, HP reports that they will sell themeJ > >>until 2006 and support them until 2011.  VMS is expected to be out for > >>the Itanium by Q3-'03. > >  > > K > > ...and production-quality, ready-for-prime-time Itanics will be out ...v	 > > when?n > F > I've got one right in front of me - a zx2000 workstation running Red > Hat Linux.   Does it look like this?t  , http://home.freiepresse.de/befis/zx2000.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:15:43 -0700s& From: Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com>, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!/ Message-ID: <urcc3omv6hp2f5@corp.supernews.com>o   Baby Peanut wrote:_ > Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com> wrote in message news:<uqn0rk3etbr4e7@corp.supernews.com>...y >  >>David J. Dachtera wrote: >>
 >>>Jon wrote:  >>>n >>>eI >>>>Having just come back from HPETS, HP reports that they will sell themeJ >>>>until 2006 and support them until 2011.  VMS is expected to be out for >>>>the Itanium by Q3-'03. >>>  >>>eJ >>>...and production-quality, ready-for-prime-time Itanics will be out ... >>>when? >>F >>I've got one right in front of me - a zx2000 workstation running Red >>Hat Linux. >  >  > Does it look like this?- > . > http://home.freiepresse.de/befis/zx2000.html  " Just the same, only different. 8^) -- o
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:39:07 GMTa" From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca>0 Subject: Re: [OT] - we're back on old cars again9 Message-ID: <Xns92AF80B393442falkarcabca@205.233.108.180>d  7 John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in,1 news:qbharu05ptjaltmvsr0ftcsjvositjkje1@4ax.com: .  E > On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:54:40 GMT, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  >  >>In articleE >><Oq6t9.38997$Q3S.20472@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "Johns" >>Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  >>>oG >>>"Simon Clubley" <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrotei; >>>in message news:uOMArsSzF51l@eisner.encompasserve.org...  >>>>D >>>> Simon. [Who is currently trying to come up with a brief new sig9 >>>> that makes Ladas sound better than Microsoft... :-)]  >>>0+ >>>Lada - the quality Microsoft aspires to.i >>D >>Huh?  I did a google search and came across a reference to an autoC >>maker named Lada.  Can I assume from your above comment that Ladav >>makes a shit product?  >  > So go the jokes: > - > Q.  How do you double the value of a Lada ?b  > A.  Fill the tank with petrol. > D > They are, or were, old Fiats made in Eastern Europe (sorry I can'tC > keep up with the boundary and name changes fast enough to be moreuH > specific).  I suspect things have improved, and they are maybe part ofB > one of the much larger groups now and benefitting as such.  It'sD > getting more difficult to buy a truly crap car in Europe now - theG > story here is that you have to travel to the US to do so these days. p > Nothing personal ;-) A  F Knew a few people that had Ladas.  They were generally satisfied with H price/quality ratio, but generally went to something better as finances E allowed.  While the originals were old Fiats (the entire factory was  E sold and moved from Italy, as I understand it), they did introduce a kC totally new vehicle ca. 1984.  I don't recall if they were sold in nI Canada, but probably not.  A relative was a test engineer for Porsche at 4H the time and worked on it in '83.  He said the Russians don't know much C about designing cars, but the really know how to write contracts.  lC Porshe's task was to bring the new car up to "best in class" for a  + number of characteristics.  They were busy.i   -- g@ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca e@ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Road@1                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4a  http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:34:59 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>0 Subject: Re: [OT] - we're back on old cars again& Message-ID: <3DB5C483.8090001@home.nl>   VAXman- wrote:  o >In article <Oq6t9.38997$Q3S.20472@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  >    > I >>"Simon Clubley" <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote ini7 >>message news:uOMArsSzF51l@eisner.encompasserve.org...0 >>     >>M >>>Simon. [Who is currently trying to come up with a brief new sig that makes , >>>Ladas sound better than Microsoft... :-)]	 >>>      t >>>m* >>Lada - the quality Microsoft aspires to. >>     >> > I >Huh?  I did a google search and came across a reference to an auto maker I >named Lada.  Can I assume from your above comment that Lada makes a shity	 >product?  >u >  5 >pI The original Lada was a ruggedized Fiat 124. It had stronger suspension,  F stood a bit higher on the weels, and had a very good heather. It also G had a enormous tool kit, you could almost take the whole car apart and IB reassemble it with that kit. That made sense, since there were no I garages in the former Sovjet Union. It was build in Togliattigrad, named D. after a Italian communist if I'm not mistaken.  F Fiat sold many outdated models with their production lines to Eastern I Europe. Polski Fiat build the Fiat 125 and 126, and Yogoslavia build the rD Zastava (an uglyfied Fiat 128) and the Yugo (based on the Fiat 127).  E The problem was that the build quality was very poor, and these cars IF tended to rust. And of course they were outdated, even if the orginal I designs once were car of the year in Europe. The only reason to buy them bD was the very low price. They were sold below cost price to get hard 	 currency.o  H Lada did design new cars. One of those designs is quite remarkable. The C Lada Niva is a small 4 wheel drive that almost looks like a normal -I passenger car. It has been around for more then 25 years now, and it was sB one of the first 4 wheel drives that did not look like a military E vehicle. The other designs were not very succesfull. The Lada Samara rH etc. didn't look very good, and did not offer anything you couldn't get G for the same price from cheap Korean models. Lada did show a new model  I quite recently on a European car exhibition. A Dutch car journalist went  F to the stand to ask for some information, and cought the poor girl on E the stand by surprise. He was the first one to ask for information...1   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.585 ************************