1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 24 Oct 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 588       Contents: Re: "slow" CDE clock? J Re: $CREPRC, LOGINOUT.EXE, and UIC (was Re: Ask OpenVMS no longer working) Re: 'hobbyist' vms RE: (OT) - Parties" Re: Another strike against Itanium" Re: Another strike against Itanium" Re: Another strike against Itanium" Re: Another strike against Itanium AS1000 4/266 CPU upgrade ?, backup/image of shadowed volume misses files0 RE: backup/image of shadowed volume misses files0 Re: batch process won't die after BACKUP aborted0 Re: batch process won't die after BACKUP aborted0 Re: batch process won't die after BACKUP aborted Carly on innovation A Re: Current storage interconnect options, and new gigabit option? ' Dual CPU cards vs. dual core processors + Re: Dual CPU cards vs. dual core processors  Re: eXcursion & Mozilla  Re: File Attributes  Re: File Attributes  Re: File Attributes  Re: File Attributes  Re: File Attributes  RE: File Attributes 7 Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"! 7 Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"! 7 Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"! 7 Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"! 7 Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"! A Re: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line - Pay-per-view ONLY :-( A Re: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line - Pay-per-view ONLY :-( A Re: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line - Pay-per-view ONLY :-( A Re: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line - Pay-per-view ONLY :-( A Re: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line - Pay-per-view ONLY :-(   Re: java on VMS - help requested4 Re: Need Help really Quick Please: 10/23/02 Noon CST Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING Re: OpenVMS is strategic% Re: OT - we're back on old cars again  Re: Scheduling Question 9 Re: The VMSNET group of forums (was: Re: Acrobat Reader?)  Re: TPU port to Linux 5 RE: VMS status checking, was OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING . Re: VMS tabletop without Office(tm): no chance. Re: VMS tabletop without Office(tm): no chance+ Re: Why does this file-spec work only once? + Re: Why does this file-spec work only once? + Re: Why does this file-spec work only once? + Re: Why does this file-spec work only once?  Re: [OT] - Parties Re: [OT] - PartiesB Re: [OT] - Parties (Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sittingB Re: [OT] - Parties (Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sittingB Re: [OT] - Parties (Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sittingP Re: [OT] - Parties (Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty" prett' Re: [OT] - we're back on old cars again ' Re: [OT] - we're back on old cars again ' Re: [OT] - we're back on old cars again   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 24 Oct 2002 06:03:57 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)  Subject: Re: "slow" CDE clock?5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-HcKzUqdddOCZ@localhost>   1 On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:24:07 UTC, Atlant Schmidt  $ <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:   > Phillip Helbig wrote:  > L > > My DECW$CLOCK seems to be in step with the system time.  The minute handJ > > on the CDE clock seems to move about 45 seconds too late.  Anyone else > > seen this? > 2 > Well, CDE always has been a bit behind the times > as an interface. >  > ("Bah-dom-bomp!")   8 I thought we were due to get Gnome on VMS sometime soon.   --   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:41:03 -0400 & From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>S Subject: Re: $CREPRC, LOGINOUT.EXE, and UIC (was Re: Ask OpenVMS no longer working) 8 Message-ID: <5e1grus3517bh8jk8u45mig4si22fh7ee5@4ax.com>  A On 23 Oct 2002 23:43:38 GMT, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote:    > b >In article <1s0uqu4pivnf3ujlci3v2grsc2b519bdcf@4ax.com>, David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> writes:/ >:On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:40:30 -0400, "Syltrem" # >:<syltremzulu@videotron.ca> wrote:  > J >  Please provide background on the question -- more often than not, thereI >  can be another solution for this class of problem.  (If you ask a very H >  specific question, you can get a specific answer -- and entirely missI >  out on an easier or alternative approach to the problem.)  Also please H >  remember to include the OpenVMS version when posting questions, among >  other similar details.   8 The original post to which I was responding is found at:  c http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=YACr9.15826%24H67.71082%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca   ? I renamed the post to respond to the technical question. In the D meantime, the original poster has gotten the technical answer he was looking for in:   [ http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=uquc3io1m3idcc%40news.supernews.com I ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot com I Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only) I -------------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 08:47:49 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: 'hobbyist' vms 3 Message-ID: <z3SI4Npms+aC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   s In article <3DB6DB14.96097AEF@medizin.uni-ulm.de>, Torsten Mattfeldt <torsten.mattfeldt@medizin.uni-ulm.de> writes:   0 > My question: how can I get ts10 to emulate VMS2 > as you did? Or does there exist a more detailed  > documentation somewhere?  D    ts10 does not emulate VMS.  tw10 emulates VAX, and VMS can run on    VAX.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:52:47 -0400 ! From: VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com>  Subject: RE: (OT) - Parties K Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027B8D@rlghncst964.usps.gov>   6     And don't forget poison and the infamous petar(d).  >     (The use of which in the phrase 'hoist by his own petard' ?      is a pun which involves an archaic term for flatulence...)   * Did they have guns in Shakespeare's plays?   Mostly daggers as I recall.    --" Andrew Dodd - not speaking for HP. Pre-Sales Account Consultant HP Computer Ltd  www.hp.com/uk/   ========================  William W. Webb / DSSC/RLM, USPS OpenVMS Support Services& 4924 Green Road Raleigh, NC 27616-2800: 919.874.3043 <FirstInitialDotLastNameAtEmailDotUSPSDotGov>   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 05:44:34 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)+ Subject: Re: Another strike against Itanium < Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0210240444.8591846@posting.google.com>  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3DB6EFDC.FA219B57@videotron.ca>...  > Shane Smith wrote:G > > a Hammer version of VMS, nobody'd use the Itanic one. I guess we're L > > pretty much the only people HP can force to use Itanic, so that's what's > > going to happen. > O > Intel could easily abandon Itanic, and let HP continue to fund the chip if it , > wants to. Intel will gladly fab it for HP. > M > If this happens, the big question becomes: would HP stick with this bloated O > architecture which woudl become HP-proprietary, or would HP admit its mistake 1 > and drop IA64 and adopt whatever is available ?  > N > At this point in time, one possible exit strategy for Intel would be to justJ > plan simple process shrinks for IA64 without any more major improvementsL > beyond what has already been committed. It might be a cheao way to bow out > without admitting defeat.   < didn't you read the news that dell is going with itanium ...? and just wait until a few years when the alpha team enhancments 5 show up, then you may be humming a different tune ...    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 08:55:51 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) + Subject: Re: Another strike against Itanium 3 Message-ID: <uxlfCmOfK2yU@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <uRIF+Lr6HtDe@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  > N > Perhaps more the kiss-of-death for Itanium is that Gartner says it will win. > + > 	http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5801   E    Not unless we get all new CIOs in the next two years.  Gartner may >    not be able to kill VMS, but generally when they say to use    something, it gets used.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:48:51 +0100 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy + Subject: Re: Another strike against Itanium . Message-ID: <3DB7D013.8000305@nospamn.sun.com>   Shane Smith wrote:E > But don't I remember hearing that Itanium came out of a partnership C > between Intel and HP? Don't HP stand to lose money if nobody buys I > Itanic? Based on the performance figures I've seen so far, if there was E > a Hammer version of VMS, nobody'd use the Itanic one. I guess we're J > pretty much the only people HP can force to use Itanic, so that's what's > going to happen. >   6 A recent NYT article claimed that Intel and HP between5 them had spent 5 billion dollars developing IA-64. An 9 Intel spokesperson who commented in the article countered 6 some other claims made in the piece but didn't attempt to contradict the 5 billion.  = On top of the 5 billion dollars Intel also has a longstanding = legal dispute over patents with Intergraph which has resulted ; in damages to Intergraph, the last trip to court cost Intel ( 150 million dollars not including costs.  < Normally new processor development costs are in the 100's of: millions not billions. Spending an order of magnitude more; on IA-64 than any other processor ever developed means that 9 Intel and HP will have to sell a large number of units at : a very good margin to end up with a possitive contribution# from IA-64 to their balance sheets.   ; And all of this pre-supposes that Intel are allowed to ship 7 IA-64s at all. One of the unusual aspects of the latest 7 ruling in the Intergraph, Intel case was that the Judge : granted Intergraph leave to ask for an injunction stopping IA-64 sales.  : Most of the information about IA-64 development costs were8 in the public domain when Compaq announced the Alphacide; and the scale of the costs offer an interesting perspective  on Compaqs Alphacide Spin.  A Could it be that Compaqs VP's looked at the amount of money spent > by Intel/HP on IA-64, assumed that this was the going rate for0 staying in the microprocessor market and folded.  8 If so they also must have assumed that Intel and HP were3 not for profit organisations who had no interest in 4 recouping their costs and making a margin by passing5 on the development costs over time to their customers  like Compaq.  0 Of course they couldn't have been that deluded ?  4 However the 400 million or so that Compaq would have3 to had spent on Alpha development moving forward to 1 EV8 and beyond looks like a bargain if it allowed 1 Compaq to compete in the narrow market that IA-64 ! is currently designed to address.      Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:43:57 +0100 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy + Subject: Re: Another strike against Itanium . Message-ID: <3DB7DCFD.4080509@nospamn.sun.com>   Bill Todd wrote:7 > "rob kas" <rob@nospam.paychoice.com> wrote in message / > news:3db707dc$0$1420$8e9e3842@news.atx.net...  > 	 >>  Shane  >>9 >> Huge Heat Sink, one big CPU fan and 2 fans in the case  >  > M > Except for the 'huge' heat sink, sounds like my 1 GHz Athlon T-bird (though F > of course the newer Athlons apparently run considerably cooler).  MyJ > recollection is that a 2 GHz Hammer was supposed to consume less than 80K > Watts of power, so a naive estimate of a 1.6 GHz chip's consumption would I > only be about 50 Watts - but they may be being pretty conservative with N > pre-production units.  Just out of curiosity (and if you're allowed to say),L > what's the processor's running temperature (my Athlon tends to run at 45 -M > 50 degrees C., about 12 degrees C. above the motherboard temperature, which 2 > in turn runs about 12 degrees C. above ambient)? >   A The IA-64 consumes 130 watts, Power 4 125 so the Hammer is pretty = good from a power standpoint. Not good enough for most blades ? where you are looking at <70 watts for the whole blade assuming  its not a double width blade.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:14:15 +0200 + From: Roland Barmettler <rob@bbp.remove.ch> # Subject: AS1000 4/266 CPU upgrade ? 7 Message-ID: <20021024151415.1c626eb0.rob@bbp.remove.ch>    Hello   D I've found a 300 MHz EV5 CPU board in a cupboard which was installed? in an AlphaServer 1000A before. Its part number is 54-24719-02. B Would any of you have an idea if its possible to upgrade an AS1000< 4/266 with this board ? I've noticed that there's a firmware- upgrade/change for upgrading an AS1000 4/xxx.    Thanks for any help.   Greetings, Roland   F --------------- bbp - Biveroni Batschelet Partners AG ----------------:              Bahnhofstrasse 28, CH-5401 Baden, SwitzerlandF ----------------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 07:12:14 -0700* From: ken.randell@fortel.com (Ken Randell)5 Subject: backup/image of shadowed volume misses files = Message-ID: <8debc3ff.0210240612.6d958184@posting.google.com>    AXP VMS 6.2, 7.2  @ I have a weird problem using backup/image on some of my shadowedE volumes where it appears to be missing files...I trust that I'm doing  something wrong.  B I have one 'master' system that I make tape images of my disks for4 distribution to other systems.  My scenario is this:  ; 1) create 'master' tape from a shadowed volume (this works)   # $backup/image dsa0: mka600:dsa0.bck   F backup/list of this tape shows all of the files that I would expect to have.   A 2) take 'master' tape to another system and restore to one volume  (this appears to work)  & $backup /image mka600:dsa0.bck dkb100:  C 3) on the other system, init a second volume to prepare it join the # shadow set, and create a shadow set    $init dkc100: label 0 $mount dsa0: /shadow=($1$dkb100:,$1$dkc100:) ...  @ and I get the usual shadow copy operation from dkb100 to dkc100:  E 4) [problem starts here] Later, if I attempt to back up this shadowed @ drive on the new system as follows, I don't get all of the filesF copied as I would expect -- the files are simply skipped with no errorB message or other (there is no activity or files open on the volume when this backup occurs):   & $backup/image dsa0: mka600:newdsa0.bck  C However, backing up by individual directory works.  I can also type 7 the files, etc., so the contents do appear to be there.   D Something bizarre that I see is that the FILE_ID for the files whichE are not backed up do NOT match in the 3rd number (RVN I think)...they ( are 0 instead of 1 like the other files.  A ANA/DISK/LIST DSA0: finds the files, so I think the indexf.sys is 3 okay.  ANA/DISK/REPAIR doesn't find anything wrong.   B What am I missing?  Should I be splitting the shadowset before the backup on the other system?    Thanks.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:19:51 -0400 * From: "Stewart, Bill" <wjs-corp@Kaman.com>9 Subject: RE: backup/image of shadowed volume misses files < Message-ID: <1E4B06029E11D211B47C0000F8207F4D01B9F47D@ESKC2>   Ken,E 	Try putting in /ignore=interlock.  If a file is open only the header $ is copied without the ignore switch.   Bill   ->-----Original Message-----> ->From: ken.randell@fortel.com [mailto:ken.randell@fortel.com]+ ->Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:12 AM  ->To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 7 ->Subject: backup/image of shadowed volume misses files  -> -> ->AXP VMS 6.2, 7.2 ->B ->I have a weird problem using backup/image on some of my shadowedG ->volumes where it appears to be missing files...I trust that I'm doing  ->something wrong. ->D ->I have one 'master' system that I make tape images of my disks for6 ->distribution to other systems.  My scenario is this: ->= ->1) create 'master' tape from a shadowed volume (this works)  ->% ->$backup/image dsa0: mka600:dsa0.bck  ->H ->backup/list of this tape shows all of the files that I would expect to ->have.  ->C ->2) take 'master' tape to another system and restore to one volume  ->(this appears to work) ->( ->$backup /image mka600:dsa0.bck dkb100: ->E ->3) on the other system, init a second volume to prepare it join the % ->shadow set, and create a shadow set  -> ->$init dkc100: label 2 ->$mount dsa0: /shadow=($1$dkb100:,$1$dkc100:) ... ->B ->and I get the usual shadow copy operation from dkb100 to dkc100: ->G ->4) [problem starts here] Later, if I attempt to back up this shadowed B ->drive on the new system as follows, I don't get all of the filesH ->copied as I would expect -- the files are simply skipped with no errorD ->message or other (there is no activity or files open on the volume ->when this backup occurs):  ->( ->$backup/image dsa0: mka600:newdsa0.bck ->E ->However, backing up by individual directory works.  I can also type 9 ->the files, etc., so the contents do appear to be there.  ->F ->Something bizarre that I see is that the FILE_ID for the files whichG ->are not backed up do NOT match in the 3rd number (RVN I think)...they * ->are 0 instead of 1 like the other files. ->C ->ANA/DISK/LIST DSA0: finds the files, so I think the indexf.sys is 5 ->okay.  ANA/DISK/REPAIR doesn't find anything wrong.  ->D ->What am I missing?  Should I be splitting the shadowset before the ->backup on the other system?  ->	 ->Thanks.  ->   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 06:44:16 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 9 Subject: Re: batch process won't die after BACKUP aborted , Message-ID: <3DB7CEFD.45CC1589@videotron.ca>  
 An update:  L I couldn't find the special patch-utility to free up the tape drive and killL off a hung batch process. Let the system like that with a batch process in aK state of limbo (dead, but still present).  But the all mighty VMS got smart L and decided to shutdwon and reboot by itself. (no indication in operator.log or ana/error of a problem !).   L So, I tried to do a backup again, but the tape exhibited a data error again.M (quite quickly in fact). Backup again asked whether to continue or QUIT. This G time, I typed "QUIT" the first ti,e. However, BACKUP exhibited the same ' behaviour. Displaying a whole bunch of:   3 BACKUP-F-WAITIDLEBCB, attempted wait on idle buffer   I And then the log file contains the batch job accounting. Yet, the process ; remains on the system, and the device remains semi-mounted.   N Operator log confirms that there was one OPCOM message (the sysgen DISMOUNTMSG,  short message) confirming the tape dismount@ "Volume "BKAK7       " dismounted on physical device _VELO_MUA0:  ? However, the "full" multiline dismount message was not emitted.   K Anyways, I then decided to shutdown the system completely and do a hardware M reset. However, the shutdown hung when the queue manager wanted to shut-down. / You see, that batch job just wouldn't go away !   L I cancelled the shutdown, then issued MC JBC$COMMAND SHUTDOWN which did seem; to work and I was then able to do the shutdown succesfully.     A While my all mighty microvax II reboots, I checked the error log.   $ It does have 2 interesting messages: DEVICE ATTENTION KA630 TK70P SUB-SYSTEM VELO$PTA0: 0 INSUFFICIENT NON-PAGED POOL FOR VIRTUAL CIRCUITS   and  TK70P SUB-SYSTEM VELO$PTA0: & FAILED TO LOCATE PORT MICRO-CODE IMAGE    , These two message occured during the backup.  M However, the last message (and only the last message) was re-issued while the M machine was rebooting.  Would the "FAILED TO LOCATE" message be the result of 0 a hardware fault, or would it be VMS generated ?  L When I press the "RESTART" button on the all mighty Microvax II, is that theK equivalent of a power cycle (it does go through the self-tests when I press M the button). Or does a real power cycle cauise more of a reset to the devices - on the Q-BUS than just the "restart" button ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 06:46:48 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 9 Subject: Re: batch process won't die after BACKUP aborted + Message-ID: <3DB7CF95.F8B102F@videotron.ca>    forgot to mention:  4 VAX VMS 7.2,   BACKUP file id: VAX72R003 21-JUN-1999   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:24:13 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 9 Subject: Re: batch process won't die after BACKUP aborted 8 Message-ID: <thpfrug7bni6j0ccnm22a8gpro8l1tu7hp@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 06:44:16 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:   4 >BACKUP-F-WAITIDLEBCB, attempted wait on idle buffer  F I'm sure I have seen patches which addressed this error. Maybe nothing+ to do with your problem but worth checking.    >  -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 06:03:37 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Carly on innovation2 Message-ID: <yOycnfqHLr_0WCqgXTWcpg@metrocast.net>  I There has been some speculation off and on that perhaps a kinder, gentler J Carly has replaced the kind of management that was making statements aboutJ 'eviscerating the soft under-belly' of proprietary systems.  And indeed ofL late she seems to have had the sense to get Curly and people like Winkler to= keep their mouths shut about such things, as well as herself.   L But whether anything has really changed seems questionable, as the following# excerpt (from Tuesday) illustrates:   ) http://news.com.com/2100-1001-962994.html    <quote>   G Fiorina also talked about focusing research in key areas like security, K multimedia, services and grid computing, while scaling back in other areas.   G "You will continue to see us investing less and less on component-level L innovation," she said. "Intel is an obvious example, but Canon as our engine; provider in our laser printer business is another example."    </quote>  K Scaling back on 'component-level innovation' seems just a bit strange for a L company which conspicuously displays the exhortation "invent" as part of itsB corporate logo.  But for a company which has pledged its future toK 'industry-standard' technology (as the above quote makes clear, once again) I it makes perfect sense:  why create (with all the messiness that entails)  when you can just assemble?   ? So while her feel-good VMS video doubtless paid homage to VMS's L wonderfulness and importance to the corporation (as her visit to ZK did someK time ago), what likely was left unsaid was the corollary:  "... and just as I soon as Windows and/or Linux shows real evidence of being anywhere nearly K able to replace VMS, code freeze here we come!  Don't let the door hit your K ass on the way out."  And what better time to plan for that than 2005, when K the Intel porting money has run out, the COE work has been completed, Alpha I is just about dead, and all existing 'commitments' (including that 3-year L period product-planning period mentioned during the merger after which VMS's7 current road map comes to an abrupt end) have been met?   L Of course, the same probably applies as well to HP-UX, but perhaps not quiteI as soon (Linux may or may not be completely enterprise-ready by then, and I having put *all* its eggs in the HP-UX/Itanic basket HP really can't toss L that basket out before there's something fairly credible to replace it with,H unlike a fading niche product like VMS whose cranky customers just don'tL appreciate what HPaq has done for/to them).  And thus HPaq will finally haveJ succeeded in jettisoning everything of significant technical value that itJ and DEC ever had, retaining only the original Compaq tradition of assemblyK plus the grafted-on sugar-plum vision of IBM-level service income (storage, J you say?  HP gutted its own storage group *before* the merger, and as soonK as sufficient standardization hits that portion of the industry - well, you @ can probably guess what Carly's 'vision' is likely to be there).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:21:32 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>J Subject: Re: Current storage interconnect options, and new gigabit option?. Message-ID: <3DB7F3DC.808AACDE@mindspring.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:   ? > In article <3DB6AA91.704C7AF0@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt & > <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote: > 5 > >Actually, I was wondering if the "new fast cluster 5 > >interconnect [via] gigabit ethernet" was, in fact, 0 > >iSCSI; it would certainly make sense. Maybe a- > >VMS engineer can confirm or deny this. :-)  > I > The gigabit ethernet cluster interconnect is gigabit ethernet -- an SCS J > protocol driver using gigabit ethernet as a transport layer.  Just plain > ordinary PEDRIVER.   That's too bad.    Atlant   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:41:40 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 0 Subject: Dual CPU cards vs. dual core processorsI Message-ID: <EETt9.60058$mxk1.47240@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   L http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&ncid=1208&e=2&u=/pcworld/200210! 23/tc_pcworld/106278&sid=95612453     $ HP Doubles Up on Itaniums in Servers Wed Oct 23, 5:00 PM ET Ashlee Vance, IDG News Service  I Hewlett-Packard will double the processor count in its Itanium servers in H 2004, as the company attempts to fill a technology gap caused by Intel'sI decision not to make multicore Itanium processors until the middle of the  decade.   K HP plans to make it possible to upgrade current servers based on the 64-bit H Itanium 2 chip by allowing customers to replace existing processor cardsJ with new ones that contain twice as many chips, said Shane Robison, seniorH vice president of corporate strategy and technology and chief technologyL officer at HP. This technology will also work with future generations of theJ Itanium processor and should provide a performance boost for HP's systems.G It will also work as a stopgap measure to help HP compete in the server F market as Intel does not plan to release similar technology known as a' multicore processor until 2005 or 2006. G "We have developed our own dual processor cache daughter card," Robison I said. "Customers can double the number of CPUs (central processing units) K within most HP systems--anything that has a McKinley, which is Itanium 2 in I it, or the Madison processor--simply by upgrading to this daughter card."      Matching Rivals J HP will make the dual processor cards available in the first half of 2004.K The card will contain the third-generation Madison chips, which are due out D in the first half of 2003. Customers with either McKinley servers orK Madison-based servers will be able upgrade two to 64 processor systems when " the cards arrive in 2004, HP said.  J Doubling the processor count in its high-end servers would help HP competeL against IBM and Sun. IBM has already rolled out a dual-core Power4 processorL for its Unix (news - web sites) server line. Sun and HP also plan to releaseH dual-core chips for their servers based on RISC (reduced instruction setJ computing) technology next year. HP, however, had not previously announcedG similar technology for its Itanium line of servers that will eventually  replace its RISC systems.   D Packing more processors into existing servers helps customers make aK significant upgrade without paying for a new chassis. HP users will be able L to boost the performance of their systems by ripping out daughter cards withJ the old processors and replacing them with the new double processor cards,H said Dean McCarron, principal analyst at market research company Mercury	 Research. I "In general, with an SMP (symmetric multiprocessing) system, when you add I more processors, you get more performance," McCarron said. "It depends on 8 the applications, though, as to how well it will scale."     Different ApproachL HP's approach to boosting the processor count on its Itanium servers differsI from the dual-core technology employed on RISC systems used in chips from J Sun, IBM and on other HP servers. HP's new double processor daughter cardsJ simply add an extra set of processors onto the card, which then plugs intoK the motherboard. With dual-core designs, two processor cores are put on the < same piece of silicon and link the cores via a shared cache.  G Both approaches to adding processors can work and performance will be a E result of how well the companies design their servers, McCarron said.   E "It really depends," he said. "One of the advantages of having a true I multi-core design is that all of the communication between the processors + takes place at the maximum speed possible."   J HP's decision to make the double processor cards will buy the company someJ time before Intel ships full fledged multi-core chips later in the decade.J HP, which co-developed Itanium with Intel, said this move is an example ofC its capability to add technology to a chip it does not manufacture.   E "This gives us another example where we invest and innovate on top of , industry standard components," Robison said.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:31:05 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>4 Subject: Re: Dual CPU cards vs. dual core processors. Message-ID: <3DB81239.5281B8BD@mindspring.com>   John Smith wrote:   G > "It really depends," he said. "One of the advantages of having a true K > multi-core design is that all of the communication between the processors - > takes place at the maximum speed possible."   . Another advantage to dual-core designs is that0 you can take partially-defective chips that have. a single working core and sell them at a lower' price (instead of just scrapping them).   ) IBM is definitely doing this with Power4. ( Their cache is also broken into multiple$ zones (3 IIRC); they may also have a& strategy to handle chips where a cache zone is defective.   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:30:40 -0500 7 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com>   Subject: Re: eXcursion & MozillaG Message-ID: <craigberry-A52E8F.10304024102002@news.directvinternet.com>   , In article <3DB74CCC.4090607@tg.nsw.gov.au>,3  Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote:   5 > Any idea as to when 1.2b will be available for VMS?   H 10/16/2002 or thereabouts.  At least now it's on the download page with  all the other Mozilla releases.   I <http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/mozilla1.2b/mozilla-openvms-  alpha-b120.sfx_axpexe>   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:25:21 -0500 7 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com>  Subject: Re: File AttributesG Message-ID: <craigberry-35EA4E.11252124102002@news.directvinternet.com>   . In article <3DB7EEE3.BBE91ABD@mindspring.com>,4  Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:  - > Has VMS got the equivalent of system() yet? 0 > Creating the code to get file attributes would% > take about a half minute with that.   F What do you mean by "equivalent"?  system() has been in the C library G for years, as has popen().  It's quite doable though inelegant to call  E the C RTL from FORTRAN, which is the language the original poster is  G using.  He'd probably be better off calling lib$spawn if the quick and  / dirty, high overhead approach is good enough.     = It might be nice to have a lib$file_attributes function that  H corresponds to the lexical, but on the other hand it's not particularly 2 difficult to write such a utility routine oneself.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 11:54:00 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: File Attributes3 Message-ID: <Vhv3Ap57Ul8s@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <3DB7EEE3.BBE91ABD@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:   - > Has VMS got the equivalent of system() yet? 0 > Creating the code to get file attributes would% > take about a half minute with that.   0    Now let me see.  You want me to save time by:!       1) creating another process 1       2) having that process execute some command H       3) that command executes a program (or is embedded in DCL), which G       	 calls a system routine using the documented API to get the data G       4) parse the undocumented format of the command output to get theoB       	 data (the output format of the command is maybe partially C       	 documented, meant only to be human readable, certainly not )       	 committed to as an API)P  #    When all I really need to do is:iD       1) call the system routine using the documented API to get the       	 data  G    OK, you're way is fine if I need to get the data quickly, once.  ButdG    then I might as well just type the command in.  Reliable, efficient,s'    and maintainable software it is not.P  )    Who do you really work for, Microsoft?A   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:00:19 -0400n2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: File Attributes. Message-ID: <3DB7EEE3.BBE91ABD@mindspring.com>   JF Mezei wrote:o  
 > Bill wrote:eG > > I can get to the file attributes (i.e. "Revision Date") through theiG > > Lexical f$file_attributes within a command procedure.  But how do Ii: > > get to the same information through a Fortran program? > 
 > HELP RMS >VM > Look at FAB and various XABs that get populated with a SYS$OPEN (as well asa > other calls)."  & Look at the FABs and RABs? Good golly!/ No wonder you VMS folks are paid the big bucks!,- You work very, very hard for simple data! :-)s  . If this question of file attributes isn't on a( performance-critical path, maybe it'd be& better to spawn something simple (DCL,# Perl, whatever) and use *IT* to geti the data for you.P  , I ask the following question is seriousness,$ and *NOT* as a one-upping technique:  + Has VMS got the equivalent of system() yet? . Creating the code to get file attributes would# take about a half minute with that.e   Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 09:50:29 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: File Attributes3 Message-ID: <gHvd5n6j3BPO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <3DB7EEE3.BBE91ABD@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes: ( > Look at the FABs and RABs? Good golly!1 > No wonder you VMS folks are paid the big bucks!t/ > You work very, very hard for simple data! :-)  > 0 > If this question of file attributes isn't on a* > performance-critical path, maybe it'd be( > better to spawn something simple (DCL,% > Perl, whatever) and use *IT* to gete > the data for you.  > . > I ask the following question is seriousness,& > and *NOT* as a one-upping technique: > - > Has VMS got the equivalent of system() yet?l0 > Creating the code to get file attributes would% > take about a half minute with that.y  A Yes, we have the equivalent of system().  And like system(), thatuA call is limited by the ability of the caller to access the outputu* stream of the resulting forked subprocess.  E  call lib$spawn ( 'WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$FILE("your.file.name","RDT")' )O  E Now all you need to do is harvest the revision date and time from the-) output stream of that created subprocess.   @ A responsible programmer would also check the status returned byD LIB$SPAWN and the status returned by the created process in addition7 to harvesting the data stream produced by that process.C   Now, how _could_ this be done?  E You could have the subprocess write the answer to a file and have the ) main program read (and delete) that file.T  F You could have the subprocess write the answer to a named pipe^H^H^H^HA mailbox and read the answer from the mailbox.  This would require 6 a NOWAIT spawn.  Fortunately, LIB$SPAWN supports that.  B Fortunately, since the LIB$SPAWN call provides the caller with the@ ability to specify the output file name for the spawnee, neither1 of these requires any work in subprocess context.m  H Or, you could use something other than I/O streams or files as your data communication channel...  F You could have the subprocess store the answer in the job logical name@ table and have the main process translate an agreed-upon logical name.r  C You could have the subprocess store a few bits of the answer in itstD return status and use multiple calls to harvest the required 64 bits of data.  B You could have the subprocess place the answer in its process name= (15 bytes) and then hibernate.  The parent could then harvesti? the process name and wake the subprocess.  That would require au4 NOWAIT spawn.  Fortunately, LIB$SPAWN supports that.  @ Or, you could use something other than LIB$SPAWN as your tool to cause DCL command execution.  D You could use DECnet task-to-task communications and read the answer straight from the network link.   @ You could use LIB$DO_COMMAND and trust the chained-to command to? re-invoke your program with appropriate saved state informatione< and the answer either as invocation parameters or in process common (see LIB$GET_COMMON)     C It's probably easier to just build a FAB and use $OPEN or $DISPLAY.    	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:26:50 -0400o* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> Subject: Re: File Attributes5 Message-ID: <T0Wt9.16501$H67.73353@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   H I believe the is in Fortran, a USEROPEN function you can use in the OPEN
 statement.= There is in Basic for sure, but I believe Fortran has it too.-  L The USEROPEN function would basically be the same as what this example shows9 (going about the FAB block), only in a different program.rE You`d end up writing as much code anyway so it`s only an alternative.mL Also such a useropen function could also be used by a basic program (no need! to re-code in the other language).   HTH.   --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais) 8 To reply to myself directly, remove zulu from my address  D "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> a crit dans le message de news:" 23OCT200223161972@gerg.tamu.edu.... > william.g.lashly@boeing.com (Bill) writes...F > }I can get to the file attributes (i.e. "Revision Date") through theF > }Lexical f$file_attributes within a command procedure.  But how do I9 > }get to the same information through a Fortran program?  >eJ > Free sample. Perhaps not the best coding ever done, but it ought to workI > and give you some idea of what to do. It shows a rather small subset ofsG > the information available (it was originaly going to show more, but IpE > never got around to adding it, thus the comment in the "abstract"),c consult I > the RMS documentation (or even just HELP RMS) for the rest of the field 
 > defintions.G >nD > And yes, it does look like the Fortran definitions still use pairsE > of integer*4 values for the quadwords instead of a single integer*80B > value if you use the definitions supplied. If you want integer*8> > time fields, you need to extract the definition modules fromC > sys$library:forsysdef.tlb, modify them, and include your modifiedt > verion in your program.w >3
 > --- Carl >7 > $ type show_file.for >       OPTIONS /EXTEND_SOURCE >       PROGRAM Show_File  >  > C+ > C 
 > C ABSTRACT:  > CrG > C        Tell me all kinds of stuff about a file, not unlike DIR/FULL  > Cn > C AUTHOR(S): > Cn > C        CDP > Cd > C CREATION DATE: > Ct > C        June-1994 > C  > C [common blocks]i > C [design] > Cr > C MODIFICATION HISTORY:, > Cb) > C        Date     | Name  | Descriptioni >lL C ----------------+-------+------------------------------------------------- ---- > C [change_entry] > C- >       Implicit Integer (a-z) >       Include '($fabdef)'o >       Include '($xabdef)'  >       Include '($xabdatdef)' >       Include '($xabfhcdef)' >       Include '($syssrvnam)' >       Include '($rmsdef)'  >n >       Character*80 filename  >       Character*23 c_created,n >      &             c_revised,  >      &             c_backup, >      &             c_expire  >       Integer*4 created(2),n >      &          revised(2),a >      &          backup(2), >      &          expire(2), >      &          size >0  >       Record /fabdef/ file_fab >       Structure /x_s/l >           UnionA >               Map ' >                   Record /xabdef/ xabr >                   End Mapt >               Maps- >                   Record /xabdatdef/ xabdatL >                   End Map  >               Maps- >                   Record /xabfhcdef/ xabfhcw >                   End Maph >               End Union  >           End Structurel >       Record /x_s/ x, hdrr >       Byte len >n" >       Type '('' Filename: '',$)' >       Read(*,'(a)') filename: >       Call STR$Trim(filename, filename, filename_length) >  > c2 > c setup FAB and XAB0 > cr% >       file_fab.fab$b_bid= fab$c_bid % >       file_fab.fab$b_bln= fab$c_blnn* >       file_fab.fab$l_fna= %Loc(filename)+ >       file_fab.fab$b_fns= filename_length # >       file_fab.fab$l_xab= %Loc(x)t > " >       x.xab.xab$b_cod= xab$c_dat% >       x.xab.xab$b_bln= xab$c_datleno" >       x.xab.xab$l_nxt= %Loc(hdr) >m$ >       hdr.xab.xab$b_cod= xab$c_fhc' >       hdr.xab.xab$b_bln= xab$c_fhclen' > c I > c open file, this does an implicit SYS$Display which loads the XABs andt such > cc# >       status= SYS$Open( file_fab).& > d     Type *,'Open status = ',status0 > d     Type *,'FAB$L_STV = ',file_fab.fab$l_stv >       If (.NOT. status) Then) >           Call Lib$Signal(%Val(status))l >           Call Exit()c >       End If >i > cu > c close file > cc$ >       status= SYS$Close( file_fab)' > d     Type *,'Close status = ',statusn0 > d     Type *,'FAB$L_STV = ',file_fab.fab$l_stv >       If (.NOT. status) Then) >           Call Lib$Signal(%Val(status))c >           Call Exit()o >       End If > co5 > c put date-time value quadwords in output variables  > c0) >       created(1)= x.xabdat.xab$q_cdt(1)o) >       created(2)= x.xabdat.xab$q_cdt(2)t& >       revised(1)= x.xab.xab$q_rdt(1)& >       revised(2)= x.xab.xab$q_rdt(2)) >       backup(1) = x.xabdat.xab$q_bdt(1) ) >       backup(2) = x.xabdat.xab$q_bdt(2)I) >       expire(1) = x.xabdat.xab$q_edt(1)f) >       expire(2) = x.xabdat.xab$q_edt(2)o > c " > c convert times and display them > ct? >       If ((created(1) .EQ. 0) .AND. (created(2) .EQ. 0)) Thenh) >          c_created = '<None specified>'o >       Else3 >           Call SYS$AscTim(,c_created,created(1),)b >       End If? >       If ((revised(1) .EQ. 0) .AND. (revised(2) .EQ. 0)) ThenA* >           c_revised = '<None specified>' >       Else3 >           Call SYS$AscTim(,c_revised,revised(1),)b >       End If= >       if ((backup(1) .EQ. 0) .AND. (backup(2) .EQ. 0)) Then ) >           c_backup = '<None specified>'t >       Else1 >           Call SYS$AscTim(,c_backup,backup(1),)  >       End If= >       if ((expire(1) .EQ. 0) .AND. (expire(2) .EQ. 0)) Thenn( >          c_expire = '<None specified>' >       Else1 >           Call SYS$AscTim(,c_expire,expire(1),)  >       End If$ >       Type *,'Created: ',c_created$ >       Type *,'Revised: ',c_revised# >       Type *,'Backup : ',c_backupo# >       Type *,'Expire : ',c_expireo >nA >       Type '('' Control Field Size:  '',i4)',file_fab.fab$b_fszoC >       Type '('' Maximum Record Size: '',i4)',hdr.xabfhc.xab$w_lrly >s# >       size = hdr.xabfhc.xab$l_ebkr6 >       If (hdr.xabfhc.xab$w_ffb .EQ. 0) size = size-1 >,0 >       Type '('' Blocks used:      '',i4)',size@ >       Type '('' Blocks allocated: '',i4)',hdr.xabfhc.xab$l_hbk >e >       ENDB >F   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:30:11 -0700c$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> Subject: RE: File Attributes0 Message-ID: <01C27B48.68F343B0@sulfer.icius.com>  D Of course if you're using C there are built-in routines for the job.G I've probably got a callable function somewhere that uses them, if it's G any use to you. Might take a day or so to dig it up though. Let me know  if it's worth the effort.p   Shaneo   -----Original Message-----9 From: Atlant Schmidt [mailto:atlantnospam@mindspring.com] ( Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 6:00 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr Subject: Re: File Attributes     JF Mezei wrote:c  
 > Bill wrote:yG > > I can get to the file attributes (i.e. "Revision Date") through theAG > > Lexical f$file_attributes within a command procedure.  But how do Ie: > > get to the same information through a Fortran program? >e
 > HELP RMS >eM > Look at FAB and various XABs that get populated with a SYS$OPEN (as well as  > other calls).   & Look at the FABs and RABs? Good golly!/ No wonder you VMS folks are paid the big bucks!o- You work very, very hard for simple data! :-)e  . If this question of file attributes isn't on a( performance-critical path, maybe it'd be& better to spawn something simple (DCL,# Perl, whatever) and use *IT* to get0 the data for you.   , I ask the following question is seriousness,$ and *NOT* as a one-upping technique:  + Has VMS got the equivalent of system() yet?i. Creating the code to get file attributes would# take about a half minute with that.    Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:57:56 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>d@ Subject: Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"!8 Message-ID: <5f9fru08k3pfqijgb1lnfubmhnl4nqp3qb@4ax.com>  2 On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:40:57 -0400, Atlant Schmidt$ <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:  , >The corporations have already exported many, >(most?) of the high-paying blue-color jobs.- >Now, they're going to do the same thing with-" >the high-paying white-color jobs.  F While not a great defender of Capitalism, I have to point out that theF logic here is supposed to be that jobs are slowly transferred to lowerD GDP economies, paying high salaries relative to their own economies.  A Over time the injection of cash brings these countries up the GDP E table and wages slowly increase towards those of the dominant economy % from which the jobs were transferred.   E This is self balancing because the poorer countries are servicing theaB wealthier countries. Take too much out of the richer economies and they have nowhere to sell to.s  F What would you rather have? A few million more dead of malnutrition inD the third world or more fat Americans and Europeans. Ok, I'm playing; Devil's Advocate here. But that;'s supposed to be the idea.y  * Not saying its particularly pretty though.  . >The software engineering community in America0 >has always been a dreadfully Libertarian-biased7 >bunch of folks, certain that their brains would assuret4 >them a constant flow of work and money. It ought to3 >be interesting to see how the Libertarians respond 2 >when they find themselves out of work with no one3 >to sue for recourse and the Republican capitalistsp6 >laughing their asses off at how naive all those folks9 >were (after all, at least in the state of New Hampshire,r5 >many closet-Libertarians routinely vote Republican).e >b0 >Since unions have always been right-out in this1 >environment, there are no contracts guaranteeingr/ >anything. Most American software engineers are 0 >strictly at-will employees. Just ask any former/ >dot-commer how that worked out! COBRA benefits)2 >only go as far as you have money to pay for them.0 >Then you're stuck with no health insurance just. >like all those folks you used to make fun of. >f >Atlanti >w   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:11:24 GMTo- From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase)-@ Subject: Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"!& Message-ID: <H4HAv0.DLC@world.std.com>  + In article <3DB540C9.8668BE51@mediasec.de>,s4 Jan C. Vorbrggen  <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote:  I > >         Where is the next uptick?  I don't know.  But I am willing too9 > >         bet it comes from the U.S.  Innovators 'R US.  > K > Your semi-inifinite supply of lawyers, coupled with a justice system thatnI > no longer is worth the title, will likely make sure that cannot happen.n  C An observation with which I couldn't agree more.  The United States G certainly does appear to be well on its way to eating itself with shortcF sighted greed.  I'm very curious, and somewhat afraid, to see what the next ten years will bring.   -brian.o -- nF --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----+ Font-o-Meter!      Proportional  Monospaced '                                       ^s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:20:50 -0400k2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>@ Subject: Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"!- Message-ID: <3DB7F3B2.C2ADB9C@mindspring.com>o   Alan Greig wrote:p  4 > On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:40:57 -0400, Atlant Schmidt& > <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote: >s. > >The corporations have already exported many. > >(most?) of the high-paying blue-color jobs./ > >Now, they're going to do the same thing withk$ > >the high-paying white-color jobs. >dH > While not a great defender of Capitalism, I have to point out that theH > logic here is supposed to be that jobs are slowly transferred to lowerF > GDP economies, paying high salaries relative to their own economies.  < This is fine, but it requires that all parties be altruistic5 (and thereby buy-in to the altruism). Right now, it'st5 becoming more and more clear that the folks exportingn8 our jobs aren't doing it for altruistic reasons, they're6 doing it to make their next-quarter's financial report7 look good. And the fact that they will eventually leave 2 the US unable to consume these world-products is a1 concern from some other poor CEO bastard down the( road, not them.e      H > What would you rather have? A few million more dead of malnutrition inF > the third world or more fat Americans and Europeans. Ok, I'm playing= > Devil's Advocate here. But that;'s supposed to be the idea.   5 We don't have to accept third-world starvation as the 8 alternative. Providing proper food, health, shelter, and3 security to the less-developed world wouldn't be an 8 impossible task (remember, $400 Billion spent on defense1 this year), and as countries grow more-developed,-8 they tend to self-regulate their populations. Well, they5 tend to self-regulate when given the means, which thep8 US has routinely blocked in the fear that somewhere some7 poor woman may have a (Gasp!) abortion! Slap! No familyd# planning money for you, bad people!g  9 Instead, we prefer to kill people once they're born usinge; the tried-and-true methods of war, starvation, and disease. 0 Somehow, *THAT* always seems to be okay with the/ Taliborn-again that run this country right now.y   Atlant   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:54:37 GMTI1 From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie)m@ Subject: Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"!< Message-ID: <hBVt9.206901$Fw2.5691500@twister.austin.rr.com>  & Alan Greig (a.greig@virgin.net) wrote:4 : On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:40:57 -0400, Atlant Schmidt& : <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote: : . : >The corporations have already exported many. : >(most?) of the high-paying blue-color jobs./ : >Now, they're going to do the same thing witha$ : >the high-paying white-color jobs. : H : While not a great defender of Capitalism, I have to point out that theH : logic here is supposed to be that jobs are slowly transferred to lowerF : GDP economies, paying high salaries relative to their own economies. : C : Over time the injection of cash brings these countries up the GDPsG : table and wages slowly increase towards those of the dominant economyo' : from which the jobs were transferred.  : G : This is self balancing because the poorer countries are servicing the2D : wealthier countries. Take too much out of the richer economies and : they have nowhere to sell to.O : C That assumes that all countries are playing fair. But globalizationOA doesn't raise the boats of workers in abusive situations, such aseC found in dictatorships, which corporations prefer over democracies:   <    http://www.globalexchange.org/economy/econ101/survey.htmlF    Globalization Survey Reveals U.S. Corporations Prefer Dictatorships  F   "American businesses may say they believe in democracy, but they areF    not putting their money where their mouth is, according to a report'    by a Washington-based think tank..."O  3 In Communist China, workers can be worked to death:   E    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8254-2002May12.html--    Worked Till They Drop (washingtonpost.com)6  F   "SONGGANG, China -- On the night she died, Li Chunmei must have been
    exhausted.n    eH    Co-workers said she had been on her feet for nearly 16 hours, runningH    back and forth inside the Bainan Toy Factory, carrying toy parts fromH    machine to machine. When the quitting bell finally rang shortly after6    midnight, her young face was covered with sweat..."  + Or in neglected areas of our own territory:e  A    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/saipan0331.htmlO3    ABCNEWS.com :  Forced Labor, Abortions in Saipand  #   "...Millions Spent to Sway Votes E  B    Saipan has spent millions on Washington lobbyists and given topF    Republicans in Congress free trips to the beautiful Pacific island,B    including one over Christmas for House Majority Whip Tom DeLay.  I         "You represent everything that is good about what we're trying toeG    do in America," he told outgoing Governor Froilan Tenorio, a distantrF    cousin of the current governor, at a dinner in Saipan this past New    Year's eve.  H         DeLay and other Republicans have vowed to fight to keep the laws    the way they are on Saipan."l  ? Fortunately, corporations don't control the judicial branch of hD government, so the workers there have finally received some justice:  =    http://www.sweatshopwatch.org/marianas/2002settlement.htmltK    SWEATSHOP WATCH: Stop Saipan Sweatshops -  Retailers Agree to Settlementu    September 26, 2002     /B Communist China offers an environment that corporations must think is nirvana:u      o huge supply of cheap laboru1    o 700,000 new engineering graduates every yeari4    o no free labor unions, thus no strikes are legal  B And corporations get their corporate welfare to help pay the costs of doing business in China:   ,    http://www.exim.gov/country/ebd-y-05.html0    U.S. Exports to The Peoples Republic of China  I   "All of Ex-Ims programs are available to finance the sale of U.S. goodsaC    and services to the Peoples Republic of China (PRC). Ex-Im BankseF    exposure is approximately $6 billion, the largest of any country in    the world..."    r2 --Jerry Leslie   (my opinions are strictly my own)9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:25:05 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>i@ Subject: Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty"!H Message-ID: <RwSt9.57899$%h2.22525@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  > "Jerry Leslie" <LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM> wrote in message6 news:CZzt9.179491$8o3.5384326@twister.austin.rr.com... >cI > The government has NO agency mandated to track offshore job relocationsw# > and their impact on tax revenues.n  I There are probably some people within both Commerce and Treasury that are E looking at this as part of incidental research. Don't be surprised iftK somebody within the Federal Reserve system is doing research - the range ofn# topics they research is astounding.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 06:50:18 GMT . From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)J Subject: Re: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line - Pay-per-view ONLY :-(5 Message-ID: <KKMt9.139341$N_6.2006069@news.chello.at>   \ In article <3DB71FAB.BF86E3CF@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >Bob Kaplow wrote:A >> Am I the only one who wants to replace ENCOMPASS with DECUS???p >c >You are not alone.n  K Of course not. OTOH here in Austria were still a LUG of the german DECUS !!y/ And HP (just like CPQ before) supports DECUS.DE    -- r Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERi% Network and OpenVMS system specialists E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:23:34 +0100o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>eJ Subject: Re: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line - Pay-per-view ONLY :-(8 Message-ID: <5cbfruk9baq7nbm8hsi2s9ju6o19thbert@4ax.com>  F On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:37:36 -0400, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:   >:Q >And I'd like to see the letters 'D', 'E', and 'C' on the next system I purchase.B  A As long as your next 'system' is an LG printer ribbon you will betD delighted. Order a box from HP today and it will say DEC and Digital on the box.g     >Dave:   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 08:53:47 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)tJ Subject: Re: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line - Pay-per-view ONLY :-(3 Message-ID: <ZbDrxlCMnL2+@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  W In article <3DB740D0.7090008@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > R > And I'd like to see the letters 'D', 'E', and 'C' on the next system I purchase.  ?    So buy off eBay.  You can probably find a DECSYSTEM 20 thereh
    someplace.y  F    I'm happy with systems that say |d|i|g|i|t|a|l|, got lots of those.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:31:45 GMTs# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>nJ Subject: Re: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line - Pay-per-view ONLY :-(G Message-ID: <lvTt9.59818$Q3S.4114@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>D  : "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:ZbDrxlCMnL2+@eisner.encompasserve.org...m; > In article <3DB740D0.7090008@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froblei <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:i > >oJ > > And I'd like to see the letters 'D', 'E', and 'C' on the next system I	 purchase.u >nA >    So buy off eBay.  You can probably find a DECSYSTEM 20 theres >    someplace.i >pH >    I'm happy with systems that say |d|i|g|i|t|a|l|, got lots of those.     So here's a scenario....  C HP spins off the Alpha- VMS group into a separate company (for thist@ discussion's sake, let's call the new company 'Digital EquipmentF Corporation' or 'DEC' for short) and issue those shares to existing HP
 shareholders.l  J Right now in today's market, such an action would probably not affect HP'sI stock price by more than a few cents per share. That may seem unusual butoI since nobody in the financial analyst community seems to think much aboutgK VMS or its revenue/profit stream (and HP could spin this as being a drag on K profits just as easily as being a contributor to profitability), it *could*c4 have no material affect on HP's current stock price.  * This would being immediate benefits to HP:J 1) No more customers complaining about the fate of their o/s and hardware.J 2) Gartner would applaud them for focusing on 'winning' operating systems.# 3) No more distractions internally.  4) No DOJ probe - eventually.M. 5) No more COE-DII committment to worry about. 6) No 'roadmap' to follow.L 7) A *perceived* insignificant change in the number of IA-64 systems HP will sell.u    ' As to DEC, the pro's and cons would be:e! 1) Freedom to market the product.r@ 2) Ability to support/port to any chip architecture they desire. 3) A FAB-less enterprise.n+ 4) Ability to recover key former employees. ( 5) Gartner damning them to eternal hell.4 6) Possible funding problems in the capital markets.5 7) Estimated stock price of $2-6 range to begin with.y$ 8) Doubts about continued viability.0 9) Have to build the Services side from scratch.    H But it won't happen because it would put a real competitor back into the market.    ------------------------------   Date: 24 Oct 2002 15:52:15 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)J Subject: Re: HP-ETS 2002 Presentations are on-line - Pay-per-view ONLY :-(5 Message-ID: <ap94vf$t1cdd$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>   G In article <lvTt9.59818$Q3S.4114@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,n& 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > ) > As to DEC, the pro's and cons would be:e7 > 7) Estimated stock price of $2-6 range to begin with.o  E And at that price I could afford to buy some stock.  And I would too.aC I expect it would turn out to be a wash short-term but a big winners on the longer-term.t   bill   -- yJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 08:51:30 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ) Subject: Re: java on VMS - help requested 3 Message-ID: <k+5MNPq9sQDA@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  \ In article <3DB6E087.8CADEA92@swissonline.ch>, John MacLean <mcleanj@swissonline.ch> writes: > J > I would like something that covers all the issues that are VMS-specific,H > the kinds of things that are not the "lowest common denominator".  TheJ > use of logicals, global symbols, powerful DCL lexical functions, indexedH > file access, cluster-oriented utilities... not mickey-mouse sequential > files in ASCII.       Easy: Java doesn't do that.  E    The JDK comes with lots of documents and pointers to documents youiB    need to get at VMS specific features from Java, but Java by itsF    nature uses none of them since its meant to be completely portable.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:07:36 -0400o! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>D= Subject: Re: Need Help really Quick Please: 10/23/02 Noon CST2' Message-ID: <3DB7F098.28B102F8@vcu.edu>e  ( hhmm... I like that "dead sergeant".....   Shane Smith wrote: > H > I believe it's "SET CONSOLE SERIAL" issued at the dead sergeant prompt > ">>>". >  > Shanel >  > -----Original Message-----0 > From: Shawn [mailto:shawnm@cotepe.carenet.org], > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 10:14 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ; > Subject: Need Help really Quick Please: 10/23/02 Noon CSTe > F > I know there is a command to re-direct the output of an Alpha ServerF > running OpenVMS 7.2-1 to a VT Terminal on the Com Ports, rather than, > the monitor attached to the Graphics Card. > F > Can someone please tell me this command and can it be done while the? > system is running or do I need to do this at the Boot Prompt.  > 	 > Thanks,c >  > Shawnl >  > sfm1115@bjc.orge   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:05:20 +0200C6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>% Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING ) Message-ID: <3DB78DA0.1030809@vajhoej.dk>    Carlos Costa wrote:t  j > "DAniel Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> wrote in message news:<BCEGLBGJDODLELBJIADKEEOKCBAA.dallen@nist.gov>...: >>The status checking in this code snippet is not correct: >>I >>	1)  The QIO status should check not for SS$_NORMAL but any error value5 >> > G > I am missing something here. The code doesn't check for SS$_NORMAL it:B > checks for not-equal-to SS$_NORMAL. Wouldn't that be the same asD > checking for any error value? In other words, if the statis is NOTD > NORMAL then an error occurs. If there was an error then SS$_NORMAL > would not return, would it?y    @ I think one of the points is that there are other good status'es than SS$_NORMAL.   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Oct 2002 06:03:55 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)a% Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWINGT5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-SdvddFndzLD6@localhost>e  0 On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:30:27 UTC, Paddy O'Brien $ <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote:  @ >> > Since CSWING is a file-manager, then I find it very hard to2 > > believe that it uses internal data structures. > >  > > Arne > I > I agree with Arne.  I looked at the code several years ago and haven't  " > done anything than use it since. > H > It uses SMG and simple file management code.  It is run on our system I > from the most banal (in the sense of privileges) accounts.  Nothing is 8E > installed with/without privileges.  It's just a process executable.g > J > The original code was written in Fortran.  I forget who changed it to C K > and I forget the current maintainers.  Regardless, they are names that I uH > know I have encountered elsewhere in the VMS world and the person who ? > said that it was poorly written and should never have worked )K > (paraphrasing) is denigrating some people who, IIRC, have helped to make p > the VMS world a better place.h   Hi PaddyA                       The last time I changed TREE (nee SWING) I  A finally changed the the compiler command line to do an "IMPLICIT  D NONE". This found all sorts of peculiarities, which I then fixed by @ positively typing everything and, more importantly, corrected a B function return that got rid of a bug that bugged me since I fist F started using it 10 years before. I sent Glenn the latest earlier this year.t   --   Cheers - Dave.  E PS It's still DEC-FORTRAN (77) and there are images for both VAX and t Alpha, linked on VMS 6.2.p   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Oct 2002 06:03:56 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall),% Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING-5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-u36O4RBdxYzk@localhost>   C On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:19:48 UTC, carlos.costa@datawest.ca (Carlos t
 Costa) wrote:     > >         status = sys$qiow(0,& > >                           channel,) > >                           IO$_ACCESS,e' > >                           &iosb[0],$  > >                           0,  > >                           0,( > >                           &fib_desc,1 > >                           DSC1(dir_template),i+ > >                           &file_length,a. > >                           DSCA1(filename)," > >                           acb,! > >                           0);, > > % > >         if (status != SS$_NORMAL)-G > >             panic(status,"io$_access directory lookup","get dirs");l, > >         if (iosb[0] == SS$_NOMOREFILES){ > >             return(TRUE); 
 > >         }  > >    To generalise >-  B The check on status detemines whether the QIOW directive operated F correctly _not_ the result of the operation. e.g. the system is happy F with the argument list. What the code does appears acceptable assuming* PANIC exits with the status/error message.  F The check on IOSB (I/O Status Block) gives information on the result. F One always checks both. Hoff's point is that IOSB could return a code E other than 'nomorefiles' and this condition is _not_ detected. Hence mA an endless loop could occur... What could have changed in VMS to R' return a different  error code I dunno,k
 (XFC ???).   -- b Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:08:51 GMTa! From: Carlos Costa <calo@shaw.ca>-% Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWINGt( Message-ID: <B9DCEA92.18D0%calo@shaw.ca>  K On 10/23/02 11:05 PM, in article 3DB78DA0.1030809@vajhoej.dk, "Arne Vajhj"u <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:   > Carlos Costa wrote:  >   > >         status = sys$qiow(0,& > >                           channel,) > >                           IO$_ACCESS,a' > >                           &iosb[0],   > >                           0,  > >                           0,( > >                           &fib_desc,1 > >                           DSC1(dir_template),b+ > >                           &file_length,U. > >                           DSCA1(filename)," > >                           acb,! > >                           0);s > > % > >         if (status != SS$_NORMAL)nG > >             panic(status,"io$_access directory lookup","get dirs");h, > >         if (iosb[0] == SS$_NOMOREFILES){ > >             return(TRUE);s
 > >         }b > > 4 >> "DAniel Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> wrote in message9 >> news:<BCEGLBGJDODLELBJIADKEEOKCBAA.dallen@nist.gov>... < >>> The status checking in this code snippet is not correct: >>> J >>> 1)  The QIO status should check not for SS$_NORMAL but any error value >>>  >> mH >> I am missing something here. The code doesn't check for SS$_NORMAL itC >> checks for not-equal-to SS$_NORMAL. Wouldn't that be the same aseE >> checking for any error value? In other words, if the statis is NOTeE >> NORMAL then an error occurs. If there was an error then SS$_NORMALo >> would not return, would it? >  > B > I think one of the points is that there are other good status'es > than SS$_NORMAL. >  > Arne >   I Yes, I see what they are saying now. I should add, though, that a "panic"pL has not occurred. I've gotten "panics" in the past and they output a messageK and exit the application. This has not happened. So I guess that means that C SS$_NORMAL is always being returned, which is a good thing I guess.t  J To be more correct, a "panic" does occur but only if you leave the programF running for a long time, but the error that occurs is an out of memoryK error, caused I figured because the endless recursive calling of get_dirs()n8 eventually exausted the allocated memory of the process.  L SS$_NOMOREFILES is being returned (sometimes anyways) as I've seen it during6 my own feeble attempts to figure out what is going on.   Carlos   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 08:42:25 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)w% Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWINGn3 Message-ID: <KK$KOgYnggfa@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  m In article <7edc7395.0210231419.57c61801@posting.google.com>, carlos.costa@datawest.ca (Carlos Costa) writes:aj > "DAniel Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> wrote in message news:<BCEGLBGJDODLELBJIADKEEOKCBAA.dallen@nist.gov>...; >> The status checking in this code snippet is not correct:  >> iJ >> 	1)  The QIO status should check not for SS$_NORMAL but any error value > G > I am missing something here. The code doesn't check for SS$_NORMAL itRB > checks for not-equal-to SS$_NORMAL. Wouldn't that be the same as > checking for any error value?l  E    No.  Lots of success status other than SS$_NORMAL exist, includingt%    the infamous %SYSTEM-S-ACCVIO (9).s  & > In other words, if the statis is NOTD > NORMAL then an error occurs. If there was an error then SS$_NORMALF > would not return, would it? (again, I'm not an expert in VMS C, doesE > the status return mean that the system call itself was ok or not oreH > that the system call found an error? In other words, if some bad valueF > was passed to the sys$qiow would that result in a NOT SS$_NORMAL, orG > only if the sys$qiow found an disk error or something? does that maket > sense to anyone but me??)_  F    This doesn't depend on C.  No matter what language you call it fromH    the return value indicates whether the I/O was put into the I/O queueF    and the IOSB indicates whether the I/O actually executed correctly.  F >> 	2)  After the IOSB check for SS$_NOMOREFILES you need to check forF >> 	    any other error conditions.  This is probably the cause of the >> 	    your problem.m > E > This is what I mean. Are you saying that even if SS$_NORMAL is trueE > that there could be errors?l  F    Absolutely.  Since the I/O system is by its nature asynchronous VMSE    provides two different status returns with two different meanings.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:11:35 GMTa< From: "John E. Malmberg" <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hp>% Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING.2 Message-ID: <bRVt9.21$dM2.732316@news.cpqcorp.net>   Carlos Costa wrote:3M > On 10/23/02 11:05 PM, in article 3DB78DA0.1030809@vajhoej.dk, "Arne Vajhj"  > <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote: >  >  >>Carlos Costa wrote:  >> >> >>>        status = sys$qiow(0,u% >>>                          channel, ( >>>                          IO$_ACCESS,& >>>                          &iosb[0], >>>                          0,i >>>                          0,A' >>>                          &fib_desc, 0 >>>                          DSC1(dir_template),* >>>                          &file_length,- >>>                          DSCA1(filename), ! >>>                          acb,   >>>                          0); >>>($ >>>        if (status != SS$_NORMAL)F >>>            panic(status,"io$_access directory lookup","get dirs");+ >>>        if (iosb[0] == SS$_NOMOREFILES){c >>>            return(TRUE); >>>        } >>>n <SNIP> > N > SS$_NOMOREFILES is being returned (sometimes anyways) as I've seen it during8 > my own feeble attempts to figure out what is going on.  H Not shown in the code fragment is that the variable iosb is declared as H an array of longwords.  So the comparison of iosb[0] is 32 bits instead  of the lower 16 bits.   A For the IO$_ACCESS function, the iosb is defined with the second rI longword as "Unused".  That does not mean that you should assume that it e contains 0.e  E If you remove the /VAXC and add /WARN=ENABLE=(LEVEL4, QUESTCODE) all  # sorts of problems start showing up.   I The most interesting is that several functions return unspecified values u' when certain execution paths are taken.   B Unless you turn on the enhanced warnings, the C compiler will not G diagnose this programming error.  It is legal in C to deliberatly code )H this way, even though there is no way to predict what value the function will return.    F It also appears that the smg*.h header files are missing some #pragma  statements.e  0 The following workaround can be used for smgdef.   #pragma message save% #pragma message disable nestedcomment % #pragma message disable misalgndstrct  #include <smgdef.h>% #pragma message restore.     -Johno! malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hp_ Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Oct 2002 01:39:22 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>% Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING - Message-ID: <878z0n3fed.fsf@prep.synonet.com>f  / carlos.costa@datawest.ca (Carlos Costa) writes:   C > I recently upgraded VMS to 7.3-1 (from VMS 7.3-0) on two separate F > clusters. I have also been using CSWING for years now on various VMS > versions and I love it.   tF > However, in 7.3-1 CSWING no longer works (it does under 7.3-0). WhenC > it goes to search a new directory tree it goes off to never-never  > land.   aD > Has anyone else experienced this, and more importantly, is there a
 > fix out?  , It has done this `forever' with ISO9660 CDs.  tF > This problem is also disconcerting because 7.3-1 has, in HP/Compaq's@ > own words, "100% binary compatibility with previous versions".  F I think you missunderstand the statment, and some of the moderatly sus@ things CSWING does. But I too am curious as to what has changed.   -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.E@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:07:56 GMT - From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase)v! Subject: Re: OpenVMS is strategic & Message-ID: <H4H7x8.Ezu@world.std.com>  M In article <3DAC5838.10307@vajhoej.dk>, Arne Vajhj  <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote: * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:  6 > > You describe my posts as stupid but in the process3 > > illustrate in all to graphic detail why OpenVMSe3 > > is likely to die (assuming that the majority ofc& > > OpenVMS customers agree with you). > 9 > I think I can understand why SUN's stock-price is wherec > it is now. > : > If SUN's sales-people think that the fact that VMS users: > will enjoy seeing a VMS brochure send out to IBM and SUN; > customers will kill VMS, then that company has a problem., > A big problem.  J I don't know about it killing them, but it'll take them one step closer toB the grave.  The layout, authoring, printing, and distribution of aJ marketing brochure costs money.  I think Andrew makes a very good case forJ this particular brochure not being an example of strategic marketing givenH conditions it imposed (a short timeline and very tactically oriented).  I In light of that, I'd imagine that mailing such a brochure to IBM and Sunf would be 100% in-effective.r  H I do understand the symbolic value of the gesture on HP's part for thoseE customers who already support OpenVMS, they'd perhaps believe that HP = actually give a damn about OpenVMS.  However, from a businesspJ perspective, HP might as well have burned the money they'd spend on such aD marketing campaign.  The business objective of marketing is get moreG sales.  There's no business sense in marketing a product to someone whoeE isn't going to buy your product.  If I'm a shoe reseller, it would beiD unwise of me to put together a list of known double-leg amputees and( target them with mailings of my adverts.  J So, yes, any time a company spends money that doesn't generate at least asJ much in revenue, that company effectively positions itself slightly closer to failure.o   -brian.A -- dF --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----+ Font-o-Meter!      Proportional  Monospaced '                                       ^'   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Oct 2002 06:03:53 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)I. Subject: Re: OT - we're back on old cars again5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-5QJOel7ysRFp@localhost>n  B On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:45:11 UTC, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  wrote:  H > I had a Fiat Tipo, The electric windows worked fine but the electronicE > dashboard display would often reset itself when driving. Result was G > all displayed values switched to metric. On a couple of occasions the ? > power was cut to the engine fuel pump for no apparent reason.q  D I have always felt that electrics are the achilies heel of FIAT and F Lancia. Her Uno turbo had an intermittent (non-!)earth which drove the dashboard mad...   -- y Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Oct 2002 09:47:15 GMT( From: per@nospam.mimer.se (Per Schrder)  Subject: Re: Scheduling Question8 Message-ID: <Xns92B1791158EC8pescatmimer@195.58.103.121>  J Maybe user A and B have different process quotas. Run AUTHORIZE and check.  K Maybe A runs both jobs as subprocesses, sharing quotas. Try to run them as f separate processes.u    2 Herbert Stoeri <stoeri@iap.tuwien.ac.at> wrote in $ <3DB6D375.8070208@iap.tuwien.ac.at>:   >Hi, >eJ >I stumbled on a problem, most likely connected to schduling of processes F >on openVMS ALPHA 7.3. User A  runs an interactive programm (gnuplot) F >doing a lot of I/O and using a neglegible amount of CPU, user B runs G >interactively a CPU-bound program, doing only computation and no I/O. mJ >Everything works fine, A's program gets it's priority boost and is fully  >responsive. > J >If however A runs both the CPU-bound program and the interactive program B >under his (A's) username, the interactive program gets very slow. >eH >I have not made any scheduling relevant changes to the system, nor sat ( >up anything like class scheduling, etc. >uI >Can anyone explain, what is going on, or - even better - tell me how to n >cure the problem. >k >Many thanks >  >Herbert Stoeria >t       -- a
 /Per Schrder  http://developer.mimer.com   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Oct 2002 12:53:59 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)B Subject: Re: The VMSNET group of forums (was: Re: Acrobat Reader?)5 Message-ID: <ap8qh6$sf1g3$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>a  C In article <1fkjrte.1xzgh9g1weeh98N%Didier.Morandi.nospam@free.fr>, 7 	Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr (Didier Morandi) writes:hI > Thank you Hoff, I stand accused. But I'm happy to hear about the VMSNETrJ > group of forums again. There is nearly no activity in there. And the VMS > FAQ sez: t > G > "Another source of free software is the vmsnet.sources newsgroup (and-H > the corresponding vmsnet.sources.d discussion group).  See the monthlyE > posting "vmsnet.sources archives" for a list of sites which archive ! > submissions to vmsnet.sources".o > ; > There is as of today no messages in vmsnet.sources nor in J > vmsnet.sources.d. And I did not find the monthly posting "vmsnet.sources, > archives". Maybe the FAQ could be updated. > E > Also, It looks like these forums are mostly a public repository forrA > japanese cartoons posted there by the www.frozen-layer.com siteaE > WebMaster, and also some DECUS members activity, which is generallya: > followed-up in our Group (but for pdp and a few others). >   A Becuase of the ease with which code sources can be made available @ through the web the use of USENET as a source distribution media@ has all but ceased.  A quick glance at the various archives show@ no new sources in any of the major groups since at best 1998 andA in most cases since 1996.  vmsnet.sources was a much lower volume : group and likely pretty much died out about the same time.  6 They were a tremendous resource whose time has passed.   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   i   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 08:44:06 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: TPU port to Linux3 Message-ID: <xCl4eJtGT855@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <ap6eup$bde$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov>, "Tony Scandora" <Scandora@cmt.anl.gov> writes:K > Years ago I saw a product called nu/TPU that impressed me at the time.  IyG > don't remember if it could read a section file, but it could at leasttH > compile and run TPU source, including EVE.  They're still in business:' > http://www.asoft-dev.com/tpu_info.htm   .    Did you actually try it?  I did, just once.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:01:59 -0400u& From: "Daniel Allen" <dallen@nist.gov>> Subject: RE: VMS status checking, was OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING: Message-ID: <BCEGLBGJDODLELBJIADKEEPOCBAA.dallen@nist.gov>   	I stand corrected ;-)   	Dan   -----Original Message-----8 From: danco@ns2.pebble.org [mailto:danco@ns2.pebble.org]) Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:25 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: VMS status checking, was OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING    G In article <BCEGLBGJDODLELBJIADKOEPFCBAA.dallen@nist.gov>, Daniel Alleni wrote:    - > if((iosb[0] & 1) == 0) lib$signal(iosb[0]);d    H That's obstensibly "STS$M_SUCCESS" rather than "1" (for us picky types).   #include <stsdef.h>  .  .c .t< if (!(iosb.status & STS$M_SUCCESS)) lib$signal(iosb.status);   - Dans   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:14:24 +0000 (UTC)i* From: Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.cc.jyu.fi>7 Subject: Re: VMS tabletop without Office(tm): no chanced, Message-ID: <ap8o70$6mp$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>  > Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:  F > For some inexplicable reason, there are people in this newsgroup whoD > believe that VMS from desktop to datacenter would be A GOOD THING.  F Are you nuts! Sure it's better to have one good OS everywhere and thatD would be the key element of big success of VMS. No other OS has that capability.H  C But maybe the big customers, few which there still exist, feel more2J comfortable when VMS is not on top of every table. (security by obscurity)   OsmoC P.S. Doc, I may have misunderstood your words or tone. Sorry if so.@   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:05:02 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>7 Subject: Re: VMS tabletop without Office(tm): no chance-. Message-ID: <3DB7EFFE.4E2A37BF@mindspring.com>   Marty Kuhrt wrote:  1 > > The PDF format appears to be documented here:p > >t= > > http://partners.adobe.com/asn/developer/acrosdk/docs.html, > >n: > > (About half way down, under File Format Specification) >m@ > Bummer.  I couldn't read the document on how to decode the PDF) > file format because it was a .PDF file.f  . Well, assuming you really don't have access to& an Acrobate Reader *ANYWHERE*, there's- always Adobe's "Grey Book", one of the series , in their documentation of Postscript and now0 PDF. Being paper, it requires no reader but you.   Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 07:02:26 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org4 Subject: Re: Why does this file-spec work only once?3 Message-ID: <RggYEjYX4V4z@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  n In article <b096a4ee.0210221616.3d8919e6@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:: >> > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE = F$SEARCH(UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC): >> > $    SEARCH 'UPDATE_LOG_FILE' BEGIN,MANAGER/MATCH=AND8 >> > $    SEARCH 'UPDATE_LOG_FILE' "BEGIN NODE FUNCTION"H > Sorry, perhaps I should have said I was using the correct password, as: > I was. Here is what happens with the incorrect password:  F No.  You are not using the correct password.  You are using "password" as the password.  H Look at your log file.  Look at the value of the UPDATE_LOG_FILE symbol.  @ The interesting part is _not_ that the second SEARCH fails.  The2 interesting part is that the first SEARCH _works_.   	John Briggs >  > ABCDE$ > ABCDE$ A = """FT WRONG""".
 > ABCDE$ @WB2i > $    ON WARNING THEN EXITa > $    NODE_INT = 1r > $    NODE_NAME = "ABCDE" > $    CODE = A ! C > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC = NODE_NAME+CODE+"::FTTOP:UPDATE_1.LOG"c7 > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE = F$SEARCH(UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC) & > $    SEARCH  BEGIN,MANAGER/MATCH=ANDB > %DCL-W-INSFPRM, missing command parameters - supply all required > parameters > ABCDE$  B When you leave out the file specification in a SEARCH command, the( CLI notices.  It's a required parameter.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 08:01:44 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)4 Subject: Re: Why does this file-spec work only once?= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0210240701.5687fffd@posting.google.com>t  p Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<3DB456F0.DA6C4AAE@eps.zko.dec.com>... > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > 
 > > Hello, > >nG > > Why does a file-spec containing "password" as shown below cause theeF > > second (and all subsequent) lexical functions that use it to fail? > F > That's done just to punish you for selecting a silly password (sic). > E > This is part of an effort by RMS to hide the clear-type password inh	 > logicala* > names and just to allow them to be used.  E Then why does it not bother to hide the password in the first F$PARSEeA command but does in the second? You can see below that it happilykE tells me the node which includes "password", but subsequently refusesyE to tell me the name. And if it did tell me the name, that would stillt not expose the password.   DCL> TYPE ACCESS-EXAMPLE.COM; $    AB = "NODE""USER password""::DISK:[DIR]NAME.TYP;12345"e $    SH SYM AB  $    NODE = F$PARSE(AB,,,"NODE") $    SH SYM NODE  $    NAME = F$PARSE(AB,,,"NAME") $    SH SYM NAME; $    AB = "NODE""USER PASSWORD""::DISK:[DIR]NAME.TYP;12345". $    SH SYM AB  $    NODE = F$PARSE(AB,,,"NODE") $    SH SYM NODE  $    NAME = F$PARSE(AB,,,"NAME") $    SH SYM NAME DCL> DCL> @ACCESS-EXAMPLE6   AB = "NODE"USER password"::DISK:[DIR]NAME.TYP;12345"    NODE = "NODE"USER password"::"   NAME = ""e6   AB = "NODE"USER PASSWORD"::DISK:[DIR]NAME.TYP;12345"    NODE = "NODE"USER password"::"   NAME = "NAME"e DCL>  8 > It works for most passwords (all except 'password' :-) > K > I recommend you just accpet that and use a reasonable password instead ofo > fighting it.   Please see my other post.h   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmana   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:25:04 GMTc9 From: Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com>n4 Subject: Re: Why does this file-spec work only once?/ Message-ID: <3DB81E15.9B1CD22C@eps.zko.dec.com>e   briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:   p > In article <b096a4ee.0210221616.3d8919e6@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:< > >> > $    UPDATE_LOG_FILE = F$SEARCH(UPDATE_LOG_FILE_SPEC)< > >> > $    SEARCH 'UPDATE_LOG_FILE' BEGIN,MANAGER/MATCH=AND: > >> > $    SEARCH 'UPDATE_LOG_FILE' "BEGIN NODE FUNCTION"J > > Sorry, perhaps I should have said I was using the correct password, as< > > I was. Here is what happens with the incorrect password: >DH > No.  You are not using the correct password.  You are using "password" > as the password. > J > Look at your log file.  Look at the value of the UPDATE_LOG_FILE symbol. >eB > The interesting part is _not_ that the second SEARCH fails.  The4 > interesting part is that the first SEARCH _works_.  P I'll have to execuse myself for not haivng the time to research and explain this& in detail, but here are the key words:  Q When RMS performs a parse for a remote filespec it is more often than not asked teX replace the actual password by the string 'password'. This is controlled by a name-block* bit NAM$V_PWD see: RMS Ref 5.19 NAM$B_NOP.  F If it does that, then RMS will create USER MODE LOGICAL with the dummyG string, translating to a string which contains the plain-view password.yS That logical can by used by one and only one image, and will dissapeard after that.iN This is deemed safe enough as the clearview password was just provided anyway,B and, assuming some image is run, the logical will not stay around.  U This probably should be documented in Guide to files, under Locating and Naming FilesPQ Chapter 5.2 Fiel specification components. That refers to the VMS Users Guide andt< to the DECnet doc, which then points to the VMS Users Guide.q The VMS Usersguide should probably have this documented under chapter 10.5.1 Access Control Strings. It does not,S# or I can not find it quickly enoughd   Example:  ; $ x=F$SEARCH("mynode""VANDENHEUVEL my_secret""::LOGIN.COM")y $ show log /proc   (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)-     "DCL$PATH" = "SYS$DISK:[]"         = "SYS$SYSDEVICE:[UTL]"M         = "SYS$SYSTEM:"@F   "mynode"VANDENHEUVEL password"" = "mynode"VANDENHEUVEL my_secret"::"
 $ SHOW SYMB X:E   X = "mynode"VANDENHEUVEL password"::H3:[VANDENHEUVEL]LOGIN.COM;115"c   Hope this helps, Hein.l   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Oct 2002 01:08:27 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>4 Subject: Re: Why does this file-spec work only once?- Message-ID: <87d6pz3gtw.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  0 spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:  E > Why does a file-spec containing "password" as shown below cause therD > second (and all subsequent) lexical functions that use it to fail?C > If I make any change at all to "password", even just capitalizings > it, it works fine. Example:a   [sniped]  @ Yep, same as in 87. It is an RMS bug, it looks inside the accessC control string and thinks it knows what is or isn't a valid string.eA *EVEN THOUGHT THE SPEC CLEARLY STATES THAT IT IS NOT INTERPRETED*c  G Some one will no doubt say you should not use `password' as a password.c@ Ask them why, as Password or pasSword are OK. PLease explain....   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.o@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:26:33 +0100 (MET)r9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>t Subject: Re: [OT] - Parties ; Message-ID: <01KO1DUAULQA9OF8NK@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>D  A > There used to be a gentleman back in England who called himselfcH > "Screaming Lord Sutch". He started the only political party I have anyG > faith in: "The Monster Raving Loonie Party". Having lived out here inpI > the colonies for a few years I don't know if they managed to keep going I > since his death, but their main reason for existance was to poke fun at)F > politicians and politics. They used to field an impressive number of; > candidates at election time, to uphold this noble cause. t  C Sutch is dead now.  He was never really a lord, of course, but was tE called so because he looked like a lord in the hat he used to wear.  dA Ritchie Blackmore played in his band in his pre-Deep-Purple days.-  D At the time, Sutch was, of course, a radical.  It is worth taking a I look, with 20/20 hindsight, at the "radical" things he was advocating in pF his party platform: the right to vote at 18, private radio stations.  ' Really radical, huh?  How times change.0  H > Was it Napoleon who said "first shoot all the lawyers"? I vote for the > politicians being next.   = I think it was an English king in one of Shakespeare's plays.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:45:45 GMTw2 From: "Andrew Dodd" <Andrew.J.Dodd@HP.spamfreecom> Subject: Re: [OT] - Parties 0 Message-ID: <djPt9.4$Tk2.97375@news.cpqcorp.net>  * Did they have guns in Shakespeare's plays?   Mostly daggers as I recall.t   --" Andrew Dodd - not speaking for HP. Pre-Sales Account Consultant HP Computer Ltdt www.hp.com/uk/   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 07:26:56 -0500; From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow)nK Subject: Re: [OT] - Parties (Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sittinge3 Message-ID: <Yuijwcm7YHM9@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <TIidncAR-63a4iqgXTWc3w@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: J > "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.TRABoD> wrote in message/ > news:ZXhsx5boXYFb@eisner.encompasserve.org...o@ >> In article <3DB6F291.F0A5C003@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt' > <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:c" >> > "Bradford J. Hamilton" wrote: >> >C >> >> In article <3DB6D4A4.C02262E4@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidtt' > <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:u >> >> <snip>= >> >> <lots of interesting comment, re: the Republican Right>  >> >>vG >> >> Unfortunately, there is not one, but two, Corporate Parties - andp
 > voting aM >> >> party ticket, Democrat *or* Republican, will only continue to encourageo > them.i >> >= >> > Yeah, but with Republicans, you get a 100% likelihood ofe9 >> > electing a member of the Corporate Party and they'reu: >> > also likely to be a card-carrying member of America's2 >> > Fundamentalist Radicals (a.k.a. "Oil Qaeda"). >> >9 >> > With Democrats, it's only a (oh, I dunno) 75% chance ; >> > that you'll get a Corporatist, only a very slim chancep: >> > of a Fundamentalist, and you could get Bernie Sanders0 >> > caucusing with *THE MAJORITY* for a change! >> >5 >> > I'll take my chances any day on a slim chance ofe$ >> > goodness rather than no chance! >>7 >> And I say vote against both of them on November 5th!o >>L >> I'd rather vote for someone with virtually no chance of winning than giveH >> the appearance of supporting the scumbags of either "major" political > party,/ >> both of whom I find to be totally repulsive.  > G > While my heart agrees with you, my head agrees with Atlant.  Choosing-G > between two evils is repugnant, but when there are major identifiable5M > differences that make one evil markedly worse than the other I believe thatsK > it makes sense to go for the lesser and then work forward from that base,lG > rather than chance having to work forward from an even less desirableA > position.g  L I'm not sure I understand. Are you suggesting that we vote for the lessor of& two evils, or the evil of two lessors?  K I grew up with that attitude. I just can't support it any longer. And untilsI more folks fed up with both parties stop voting for either of them, we'lltD continue to be handed the same crap by both the republicrats and the& democans. Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum.  I > Allowing the situation to get worse in the hope that it will eventually M > galvanize improvements is the stuff of revolution, not political evolution.nM > Until the possibility of using the latter means is pretty well proven to be0# > zero, I'll continue to prefer it.   K There are viable third party candidates for at least some offices. They arexJ totally ignored by the media. Allow them to participate in the debates and6 media access, and they'd have a chance. A good chance.  F Where I live half the candidates on next months ballot will be runningE unopposed, even by the other "major" party. Sort of reminds me of theiG election recently won in Iraq by Sadaam. I refuse to vote for unopposedy? candidates, especially since they never represemt MY positions.e  J Besides, occasionally one of those other choices wins. It happened 4 years ago in Minnesota :-)  1 	26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamyt4 	Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/  D         "I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed.D         The U.S. government will lead the American people in and theD         West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life."   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:29:37 -0400s* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>K Subject: Re: [OT] - Parties (Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting 2 Message-ID: <m9mdnckWgN9cniWgXTWcog@metrocast.net>  H "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.TRABoD> wrote in message- news:Yuijwcm7YHM9@eisner.encompasserve.org...c@ > In article <TIidncAR-63a4iqgXTWc3w@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:   ...g  I > > While my heart agrees with you, my head agrees with Atlant.  ChoosingeI > > between two evils is repugnant, but when there are major identifiableSJ > > differences that make one evil markedly worse than the other I believe thatG > > it makes sense to go for the lesser and then work forward from that0 base,TI > > rather than chance having to work forward from an even less desirable1
 > > position.e >gK > I'm not sure I understand. Are you suggesting that we vote for the lessor: of( > two evils, or the evil of two lessors? >)G > I grew up with that attitude. I just can't support it any longer. And  untileK > more folks fed up with both parties stop voting for either of them, we'll F > continue to be handed the same crap by both the republicrats and the( > democans. Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum.  K If you truly believe that, then your voting suggestions are consistent with J that belief.  But leaving aside what I sincerely hope is an anomaly w.r.t.J foreign policy and domestic repression over the past year-plus (brought onE by political hysteria that appears to exceed the public hysteria by aoA considerable margin), I believe that there are *very* significant=C differences between the two parties (mixed in with some regrettable ' similarities), so can't agree with you.a   >eK > > Allowing the situation to get worse in the hope that it will eventuallyhD > > galvanize improvements is the stuff of revolution, not political
 evolution.L > > Until the possibility of using the latter means is pretty well proven to be% > > zero, I'll continue to prefer it.f >aI > There are viable third party candidates for at least some offices. Theyl areuL > totally ignored by the media. Allow them to participate in the debates and8 > media access, and they'd have a chance. A good chance.  E That's great - do it.  But when third-party candidates have no chance-K whatsoever of winning, and the outcome between the two major parties is not2G a foregone conclusion, then leave the third-party vote for another day.7   >aH > Where I live half the candidates on next months ballot will be runningG > unopposed, even by the other "major" party. Sort of reminds me of the.I > election recently won in Iraq by Sadaam. I refuse to vote for unopposed A > candidates, especially since they never represemt MY positions.   > That's a perfect opportunity to voice your support for change.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:35:55 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>K Subject: Re: [OT] - Parties (Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting . Message-ID: <3DB7F73B.71E424E6@mindspring.com>   Bob Kaplow wrote:   H > Where I live half the candidates on next months ballot will be runningG > unopposed, even by the other "major" party. Sort of reminds me of the)I > election recently won in Iraq by Sadaam. I refuse to vote for unopposedUA > candidates, especially since they never represemt MY positions.t  + Sometimes, it doesn't matter *WHO* you voteC" for; Republicans win regardless...  + Have you been following the news around thec& "Early Voting" going on down in Texas?  * (Background info: Down in Texas, they vote, on touch-screen voting machines manufactured- by a company that is run by a fellow who is ak' well-known Republican political donor.)h  ( It seems that one at least some of those) machines, if your touch the "button" thatO( should select the Democratic party line,% the machine puts a check-mark next tou' all the Republican names. Other reportsn, have it just checking the Republican Federal& Senate Candidate. And there seem to be/ problems trying to select Democratic candidatesI one-by-one, too.  
 What a shock!p  * The "explanation" from elections oaficials( is that the touch-screen membrane wasn't+ correcly (re-)aligned iwth the LCD display.   ' In any case, the Texas Democratic partys/ has filed sute to have the early voting stopped   while the machines are analyzed.  ) (Me, I would have programmed them to justu+ internally, quietely switch some percentageu' of Democratic votes to Republican votesi, whilst displaying the voter's true intention* on the screen. Whoever did this naive hack* screwed-up big time. Then again, maybe the) machines are doing the more-sophisticatedI hack, too.)u   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:29:40 +0100-% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> Y Subject: Re: [OT] - Parties (Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are sitting pretty" pretta8 Message-ID: <eqbfru4klhfapqp220ed4iasjuokurgbuc@4ax.com>  B On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:18:34 -0700, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> wrote:  @ >There used to be a gentleman back in England who called himselfG >"Screaming Lord Sutch". He started the only political party I have anytF >faith in: "The Monster Raving Loonie Party". Having lived out here inH >the colonies for a few years I don't know if they managed to keep goingH >since his death, but their main reason for existance was to poke fun atE >politicians and politics. They used to field an impressive number ofs9 >candidates at election time, to uphold this noble cause.   
 www.omrlp.comh  , "Vote for Insanity. You know it makes sense"    G >Was it Napoleon who said "first shoot all the lawyers"? I vote for theM >politicians being next. >h >Shane >e >-----Original Message----- : >From: Atlant Schmidt [mailto:atlantnospam@mindspring.com]+ >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:04 PMc >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComD >Subject: Re: [OT] - Parties (Re: HP tells VMS users "Relax, you are  >sitting pretty" pretty" pretty" >u >t >"Bradford J. Hamilton" wrote: > @ >> In article <3DB6D4A4.C02262E4@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt& ><atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:	 >> <snip>s: >> <lots of interesting comment, re: the Republican Right> >>M >> Unfortunately, there is not one, but two, Corporate Parties - and voting aeJ >> party ticket, Democrat *or* Republican, will only continue to encourage >them. >c9 >Yeah, but with Republicans, you get a 100% likelihood of 5 >electing a member of the Corporate Party and they'ret6 >also likely to be a card-carrying member of America's. >Fundamentalist Radicals (a.k.a. "Oil Qaeda"). >h5 >With Democrats, it's only a (oh, I dunno) 75% chance 7 >that you'll get a Corporatist, only a very slim chance 6 >of a Fundamentalist, and you could get Bernie Sanders, >caucusing with *THE MAJORITY* for a change! >,1 >I'll take my chances any day on a slim chance of"  >goodness rather than no chance! > - >Vote Democratic on November 5th; the job you- >save may be your own! >w >Atlant. >>   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 08:26:38 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)t0 Subject: Re: [OT] - we're back on old cars again3 Message-ID: <EpyAiNh787hJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <ap6j1a$s577m$3@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > H > I think he mis-typed "heater".  Especially considering the environmentF > these cars were sold for use in.  I seem to remember the Skoda being3 > described as "a farm tractor with a heater".  :-)   D    On a farm tractor, that's what the muffler is for.  You get cold,E    then you warm up your hands my rubbing your gloves on the muffler.=   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Oct 2002 08:30:20 -0500- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)O0 Subject: Re: [OT] - we're back on old cars again3 Message-ID: <VoJuIkeW+M0r@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  i In article <20021023182149.I15801@eisenschmidt.org>, John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> writes:  > G > To actually drift back on topic (the topic itself being offtopic), ifn- > Microsoft were a car, I'm thinking Corvair.[  H    Nope.  GM actually fixed a lot of the design problems in the Corvair.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Oct 2002 00:58:47 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>0 Subject: Re: [OT] - we're back on old cars again- Message-ID: <87hefb3ha0.fsf@prep.synonet.com>f  3 Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> writes:    > John Smith wrote:rK > > "Simon Clubley" <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote ins9 > > message news:uOMArsSzF51l@eisner.encompasserve.org...   C > >>Simon. [Who is currently trying to come up with a brief new sigeC > >>that makes Ladas sound better than Microsoft... :-)] > > Lada -u% > >>the quality Microsoft aspires to.r  @ > Once they get over being an after-ran in the Dinkey car world.  D You could substitute Wartberg for Lada. Even if they have never seenB or smelt a Warty, unlikley if you are from the Northern hemisphereD (the smelling bit) the name is sort of self documenting for this use :)  / I think that even they don't deserve it though.O   -- O< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.>@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.588 ************************