1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 28 Oct 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 596       Contents:3 Re: 6 free RA81 disks near philly (for pickup only) ! ??== OVMS 7.3-1:.PCSI_INSTALL_MIN  Blocking call cancelled  Re: Blocking call cancelled  Cluster * error message with  "Note from POP server"P Half of HP's HP 3000 users intend to desert HP - MANMAN on VMS development to stP Re: Half of HP's HP 3000 users intend to desert HP - MANMAN on VMS development t4 Re: I'm looking for hobbyist VAX stuff Near BELGIUM! Re: Immutable laws of the PC Re: Immutable laws of the PC Re: Installing VMS Jensen  Re: Installing VMS Jensen  Re: Installing VMS Jensen  Re: Installing VMS Jensen 3 Intel Conceding 64-Bit Desktops to IBM, AMD - eWeek 7 Re: Intel Conceding 64-Bit Desktops to IBM, AMD - eWeek 7 RE: Intel Conceding 64-Bit Desktops to IBM, AMD - eWeek 7 Re: Intel Conceding 64-Bit Desktops to IBM, AMD - eWeek  RE: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING Plug: csv2pdf 1.1 ( Re: Quorum disk appears to not be voting( Re: Quorum disk appears to not be voting recursive copy Re: recursive copy Re: recursive copy? Re: Rejuvenating OpenVMS [was Re: So I went to the HP IT forum] ? Re: Rejuvenating OpenVMS [was Re: So I went to the HP IT forum] ? Re: Rejuvenating OpenVMS [was Re: So I went to the HP IT forum] # SAP? still a market for consultants ' Re: SAP? still a market for consultants ' Re: SAP? still a market for consultants ' Re: SAP? still a market for consultants ' Re: SAP? still a market for consultants ' Re: SAP? still a market for consultants ' Re: SAP? still a market for consultants   Re: So I went to the HP IT forum  Re: So I went to the HP IT forum  Re: So I went to the HP IT forum  Re: So I went to the HP IT forum  Re: So I went to the HP IT forum Stop the extinction...  3549  RE: Timezone-change observations  Re: Timezone-change observations Re: TPU port to Linux ) VMS docs use webtrends to track browsers.   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:55:28 -0500 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>< Subject: Re: 6 free RA81 disks near philly (for pickup only). Message-ID: <3DBD41D0.36ACEC51@mindspring.com>   Howard S Shubs wrote:   7 > In article <apffb9$130n1$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, , >  bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > I > > Actually, I have had relatively few failures and when you figure that K > > all of these disks bounced their way here in the back of station wagons M > > and trucks it goes a long way to proving the quality of computer products  > > from that era. > I > Not R81 disks.  They used a sealant that broke down after about a year, G > in my experience.  From what I've been told, DEC knew this but it was @ > cheaper to deal with the problem than to fix it at the source.  * You're referring to the famous "Glue" ECO?, I thought DEC *DID* deal with it, eventually/ replacing all the failing HDAs. Did they not do 1 so to your liking? (Hint: We had a *LOT* of RA81s ' in-house at DEC as well. We were *VERY*  aware of the failure rates.)  1 By the way, don't the rotary positioners in these , drive have some wonderfully-powerful magnets0 that you could carefully scrap out of them? (But4 try not to *SNAP!* lose any fingers in the process.)   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:10:28 +0100 . From: "Hans M. Aus" <aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de>* Subject: ??== OVMS 7.3-1:.PCSI_INSTALL_MINB Message-ID: <aus-18533E.15102828102002@wrzx08.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de>  $ Can't install min VMS in VMS 7.3-1.   G After selecting the disk, SYS$SYSTEM:AXPVMS$PCSI_INSTALL_MIN.COM hangs   and nothing happens.  H I can mount all disks on my Alpha and PCSI_INSTALL_MIN worked fine with 	 OVMS 7.3.   ! Have "they" changed things again?    --  B Cheers, Hans M. Aus, Wuerzburg, Germany,  aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:26:07 -0000 . From: "Half a buzz" <ericthehalfabore@msn.com>  Subject: Blocking call cancelled= Message-ID: <px6v9.1233$xX6.764@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>   F Hi Im trying to FTP into my creaking ancient VAX (VMS 5.5) and getting5 Blocking Call Cancelled (from Windows running WSFTP). H I can ftp in from an AIX box, it takes about 40 seconds to establish the
 connectionK In my ageing memory something tells me this could be down to the VAX having % a DNS lookup that is no longer valid. L If this is in the right area can anyone tell me how to disable DNS lookup on the VAX.  K As and aside (and because Ive never done it) whats the command to back up a  whole VMS system to tape?!!!   Many thanks    Rog    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 04:21:41 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> $ Subject: Re: Blocking call cancelled, Message-ID: <3DBD018B.2C85CF4C@videotron.ca>   Half a buzz wrote:M > In my ageing memory something tells me this could be down to the VAX having ' > a DNS lookup that is no longer valid. N > If this is in the right area can anyone tell me how to disable DNS lookup on
 > the VAX.  J It depends on what TCPIP software stack is installed on your VMS machine.   G My all mighty microvax IIdoesn't have many problems with opening an FTP M session. However, if you have an initial directory that is very big, this may L take some more time. If you can specify a different directory when you begin7 the ftp session, try one that has very few files in it.     M > As and aside (and because Ive never done it) whats the command to back up a  > whole VMS system to tape?!!!  > BACKUP/IMAGE/IGNORE=INTERLOCK <disk> <tape>:mysaveset.bck/save  N where <disk> is the name of the disk drive you wish to backup (SHOW DEV D will give you a list)G and <tape> is the name of the tape device. (show dev M or show dev TU )   1 HELP BACKUP will give you plenty of  information.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:33:55 +0530 # From: "Vivek Soni" <visoni@bmc.com>  Subject: Cluster/ Message-ID: <urqdalq1d8iv0f@corp.supernews.com>    Hi All,    Please through some light.  G How can I finf out the collecters and the interconnects connected to my  VAX/Alpha system in a cluster.   Thanks Vivek    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:05:19 -0500 # From: Sol Gongola <sol@adldata.com> 3 Subject: error message with  "Note from POP server" + Message-ID: <3DBD603F.E15EBB25@adldata.com>   8 We have:  Compaq TCP/IP V5.1 - ECO 3 with OpenVMS V7.2-1  F We sometimes get these error messages.  It usually happens for a large, email (4 meg or more). We were ok with this.D However, we have also been receiving these messages for small files.F On some occasions, purging mail files from the users directory clears 
 the problem.    D Why are we getting these errors for small email message and what canA we do about it? The "page file quota" is already larger than the  
 message size.   = The message comes with no header information other than what  = is shown below.  How can get it show the "From:" information   the text claims is present.     
 thank you  sol gongola  adl ata systems inc  dobbs ferry, new york   " -------- Original Message --------2 Message-ID: <md5:BF1CE68236697E94BFBE979BCDE01CBE> X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 # X-UIDL: sol_28-OCT-2002_10:17:05.26    Note from POP server:   E You have received a mail message from the sender shown on the 'From:' 3 line above that is too large to be retrieved.  This @ message is now in your VMS MAIL folder.  To access it, log in to5 your VMS host and use the VMS MAIL 'EXTRACT' command. ; After extracting the message you should ask your VMS system  administrator to  >    1) increase the "page file quota" of the POP server account7    to a value larger than the size of the file which is     3721 bytes (7 VMS blocks)    2) stop & restart POP.   A This will enable you to read messages of this size through POP in  the future.   F Should you still desire to read through POP the message which you haveC just extracted you can do so provided that the POP account has been  given F the increased page file quota as above. Simply use the VMS mail 'MOVE'D command to move the mail message from the MAIL folder to the NEWMAILH folder. Then use your POP client to fetch the message again. If you haveF any questions, please contact your VMS system administrator or support person.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:10:27 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> Y Subject: Half of HP's HP 3000 users intend to desert HP - MANMAN on VMS development to st 8 Message-ID: <1i9qrusfacar3drc1cgkd0o1lagsnheebg@4ax.com>  C I have just received a "Statement of Directions" White Paper on the C future of the MANMAN MRP/ERP system. This software runs on only two  platforms - VMS and HP3000 mpe.   D SSA have said that survey work carried out by Interex in conjunction= with HP World Magazine has identified that the highest single E percentage of HP3000 users intend to migrate to a platform other than @ an HP/Windows  platform  or HP-UX. Only 36% of users intend even considering an HP solution.   B SSA have said that they will continue to support MANMAN on VMS andF intend to support the application on Itanium but then intend to freeze) future development of the MANMAN product.   F Users will be encouraged to switch to another ERP product supported by( SSA. No alternative product runs on VMS. -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:39:00 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> Y Subject: Re: Half of HP's HP 3000 users intend to desert HP - MANMAN on VMS development t ' Message-ID: <3DBD8444.4040507@MMaz.com>    Alan Greig wrote:   C >SSA have said that they will continue to support MANMAN on VMS and G >intend to support the application on Itanium but then intend to freeze * >future development of the MANMAN product. > E Actually they stated that they were doing not 'further' development,  B just support as long as they have paying customers and harware to  support those platforms.  G >Users will be encouraged to switch to another ERP product supported by ) >SSA. No alternative product runs on VMS.  > G One major issue missed  besides VMS, they will not provide sources for  # their other non-MANMAN solutions...    Barry    --    @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:08:16 +0100 4 From: Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr (Didier Morandi)= Subject: Re: I'm looking for hobbyist VAX stuff Near BELGIUM! B Message-ID: <1fkr7f7.125oqmhzg5q1mN%Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>  	 Hi Diego,   F I have currently an AlphaStation 250 4/266 for sale. Ok, it's not "VAX stuff" but it may interest you.    Email: Didier.Morandi@Free.fr.   D.
 (Toulouse)  - Diego CLAEYS <diego.claeys@pandora.be> wrote:   	 > Hi all,  > H > I'm a OpenVMS hobbyist in Belgium, and I'm looking for some VAX stuff.K > If you have some VAXen, and you want to get rid off, please do me a sign!  >  > Many thanks in advance!      ---------------------------  Posted with MacSoup 2.4.6  Remove .nospam to email me.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:06:46 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy % Subject: Re: Immutable laws of the PC . Message-ID: <3DBD2856.5050107@nospamn.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:a > In article <ZKmdnZDl74GrJySgXTWcog@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  >  > D >>>AMD doesn't have to run out of cash (even though that is likely),A >>>Opteron won't have *nearly* the TPC marks of Monticeto/Madison  >>N >>I think you'll find that Opteron flushes Madison down the toilet in TPC:  itM >>will have better raw processor performance (TPC code really isn't very much J >>like FP code), it will have *far* better memory performance (whether youG >>want to use latency or bandwidth as the criterion:  even 3-hop memory N >>latency will be significantly better than Madison with the zx1 chipset), andG >>its inter-processor communication is far better as well (not that TPC > >>requires a *lot* of coordination, but it does require some). >> >  > 5 > 	I say not a chance.  Here's two quick questions.    > ? > 		1) Which OS and database will Opteron run when we see tpmC   > 			results?    >    Does it matter ?  6 Opterons huge advantage over Itanium is that it should7 do fine running Win2000/SQL-Server. It would be nice if ; it a 64bit SQL-Server implimentation 20% better performance % would be good but it isn't essential.   : Solaris x86 or Linux running Oracle would be fine. Solaris; scales better than Linux but you are only initially talking 7 about matching whats available in the Itanium market so  4 CPU's is likely to be fine.   : Itanium as we all know doesn't do anything well unless you9 use feedback directed optimisation and a bunch of Russian  tuning engineers.     6 > 		2) When will we see Opteron tpmC results posted to > 			www.tpc.org?  >   8 Again does it really matter, TPC-C's is not know for its5 ability to predict real world apps performance so why 9 would results be usefull. Unless you happen to think that  TPC-C is an app.    > > 	Reasonable answers and I start to believe a tiny bit in the > 	almighty Opteron. >   ! You have very very low standards.   7 You want to know which OS/DBMS Opteron will be running, 2 which isn't an issue and you want the results of a meaningless benchmark.  5 And if you had them you would transfer your allegance  to Opteron ???   Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:17:05 -0800 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> % Subject: Re: Immutable laws of the PC 8 Message-ID: <20021028091705.3fff90df.mathog@caltech.edu>  " On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 23:29:07 -0400. JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:   > Bill Todd wrote:K > > But take heart:  Windows will be supporting Hammer before long.  In the L > > meantime, should Itanic supporters be brave enough to run TPC-C tests onC > > Oracle, an earlier fairly direct comparison should be possible.  >  > P > And this is where Hammer stands a MUCH better chance than IA64. Because of itsP > intrinsic support of 8086 code, Hammer gets instant access to the billions andJ > billions of 8086 programs already on the market, match or outperform the > 8086-du-jour.   A This is exactly why Opteron is going to drop depth charges on the I already submerged Itanic.  Joe Gamer or Mary Officeuser can upgrade their D machine from a Pentium or Athlon to an Opteron machine and still runJ all the same software.  Sure, it won't take advantage of the 64 bit stuff,E but it will run faster than what they had.  And when Windows XP64 (or A whatever they call it) ships they will still be able to run their @ existing applications and then add any new 64bit ones they need.  H In other words, for at least 95% of the computer market it's a darn nearM painless migration to 64bit land with an increase in 32bit performance thrown G in to sweeten the pot.  Or turning that argument over, Opteron is going B to have a lot of sales that have nothing whatsoever to do with its 64bit capabilities.   J With Itanic, assuming any actually ever appear for sale, you're looking atF all new software from the get go.  And the only reason to go to Itanic= is to get a 64 bit machine. It's a jarring transition and one B that there's no compelling reason to make outside the data center.; Not that the case there is all that compelling either.  Oh, K it's compelling enough for two companies: HP (who burned their Alpha bridge B at leat 3 years prematurely) and Intel (who needs somebody to foot? the bill for Itanic).  But it sure doesn't look very appetizing  for their customers.    B The primary beneficiary of the HP/Intel Itanic axis is going to be IBM and Sun (in that order).     --   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:48:41 -0500 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> " Subject: Re: Installing VMS Jensen/ Message-ID: <uronpq4efbf468@news.supernews.com>   	 $ EXIT 84 ) %SYSTEM-F-CTRLERR, fatal controller error   / "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@nospam.com> wrote in message * news:VIUu9.106$eB4.2093@news.get2net.dk...D > I have a Jensen which has had NT running on it for some years.  ItK > originally also had VMS installed.  Anyhow, I would like to reinstall VMS  on	 > it now.  > L > I ran the configuration utility, changed the boot to VMS etc. ROM 2.2 SRMM > 370 < > SHOW DEVICE showed the RRD42 (?) as ROMDISK RX CD-ROM 4.5d > L > However, an attenpt to boot standalone backup from the CD results in error > 84 > L > This does not help to much I know, because that is the error when there is > no CD in the drive.  >  > Any obvious clues ?  >  > Dweeb. >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:43:53 GMT 1 From: CSABA  HARANGOZO   <csabah@zipworld.com.au> " Subject: Re: Installing VMS Jensen5 Message-ID: <tF7v9.449$S5.24047@nasal.pacific.net.au>   # Dr. Dweeb <Dweeb@nospam.com> wrote: D > I have a Jensen which has had NT running on it for some years.  ItN > originally also had VMS installed.  Anyhow, I would like to reinstall VMS on	 > it now.   L > I ran the configuration utility, changed the boot to VMS etc. ROM 2.2 SRMM > 370 < > SHOW DEVICE showed the RRD42 (?) as ROMDISK RX CD-ROM 4.5d  L > However, an attenpt to boot standalone backup from the CD results in error > 84  L > This does not help to much I know, because that is the error when there is > no CD in the drive.    > Any obvious clues ?    > Dweeb.  > 	I have some Jensen parts ( actually one almost complete box )! 	for sale, if you need something.  							Cheers,  Csaba   I    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- E    * Csaba I. Harangozo     |    'To err is human', said the hedgehog E    * csabah@zipworld.com.au |           as he dismounted a wirebrush. I    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ;    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 05:45:07 +0100 $ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@nospam.com>" Subject: Re: Installing VMS Jensen- Message-ID: <Vh3v9.1$Hy5.117@news.get2net.dk>   J Possibly, but the controller was/is known to be working.  I observe though" that the CD light never activates.   Dweeb  John Vottero wrote:  > $ EXIT 84 + > %SYSTEM-F-CTRLERR, fatal controller error  > 1 > "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@nospam.com> wrote in message , > news:VIUu9.106$eB4.2093@news.get2net.dk...E >> I have a Jensen which has had NT running on it for some years.  It > >> originally also had VMS installed.  Anyhow, I would like to >> reinstall VMS on it now.  >>D >> I ran the configuration utility, changed the boot to VMS etc. ROM >> 2.2 SRMM 370 = >> SHOW DEVICE showed the RRD42 (?) as ROMDISK RX CD-ROM 4.5d  >>G >> However, an attenpt to boot standalone backup from the CD results in  >> error 84  >>D >> This does not help to much I know, because that is the error when >> there is no CD in the drive.  >> >> Any obvious clues ? >>	 >> Dweeb.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:34:51 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>" Subject: Re: Installing VMS Jensen) Message-ID: <3DBD2EEB.8B04149D@127.0.0.1>    John Vottero wrote:  >  > $ EXIT 84 + > %SYSTEM-F-CTRLERR, fatal controller error   = It does not look healthy that the light doesn't even 'flick'.   A You can replace the CDROM, but you need to enable parity as well.   D Another thing to check is the cable is seated properly, while movingG things around in the system, I must have dislodged the cable because it F was hanging out on mine... Check it out at the controller end as well.G You could also try disconnecting the fixed disk(s) to eliminate that as  a cause.   --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:50:27 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> < Subject: Intel Conceding 64-Bit Desktops to IBM, AMD - eWeekI Message-ID: <nVdv9.115864$%h2.69998@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   2 http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,642927,00.asp   October 21, 2002+ Intel Conceding 64-Bit Desktops to IBM, AMD    By  Ken Popovich    L Sixty-four-bit computing is coming to the desktop next year, but Intel Corp.H is gambling that the demand for such power will remain only for high-end enterprise systems.   L At the Microprocessor Forum here last week, IBM, of Armonk, N.Y., became theG second chip maker to announce a 64-bit product for use in desktops. The L 1.8GHz PowerPC 970 will be introduced in the second half of next year. WhileK Apple Computer Inc. has declined to publicly embrace the chip, sources said I the company will feature it in new Mac OS desktops next year, also in the  second half.  J In the first half of next year, Advanced Micro Devices Inc., of Sunnyvale,J Calif., will release its first 64-bit processors for desktops and servers.E In a presentation at the conference, AMD revealed the first benchmark B results for its new Clawhammer product and contended its chip will3 outperform comparable 32-bit processors from Intel.   I Intel, of Santa Clara, Calif., will continue selling its 32-bit Pentium 4 J chips for desktops, aiming its 64-bit Itanium architecture at the high-endL arena. Despite reports that Intel has been working on a parallel project forF a 64-bit x86 architecture, officials said the company's future lies inI Itanium, technology it spent more than $1 billion to develop but which is / not compatible with most existing applications.   E Most PC makers will migrate to 64-bit desktop processors this decade, L analysts said, posing a dilemma for Intel, which fears that a 64-bit PentiumJ could undermine support for its struggling Itanium line. "The moment IntelJ releases an x86-based [Pentium] 64-bit chip, Itanium is dead," said Nathan9 Brookwood, an analyst for Insight 64, in Saratoga, Calif.   F Users and analysts say the move to 64-bit processors is inevitable. InJ general, 64-bit chips offer several advantages over 32-bit chips. They canC process twice as much data per clock cycle as 32-bit processors. In I addition, 64-bit processors can handle far more than the 4GB RAM limit of 
 32-bit chips.   K While Intel counters that its 32-bit processors are plenty powerful to meet I user needs, some users reject that assertion, noting that much of today's H software is already very memory-intensive. In addition, 64-bit chips can, process encryption faster than 32-bit chips.  J "Just a couple of years ago, folks said you wouldn't see many people doingI film editing on PCs, but now [you will]," said Grant Boucher, a technical ? consultant for Digital Revelations, a subsidiary of Revelations " Entertainment LLC, in Los Angeles.  G Boucher, who created some of the special effects in the movie "Titanic" K using a 500MHz system from Compaq Computer Corp. that featured 64-bit Alpha F processors, said recent efforts, such as Microsoft Corp.'s push towardF having computers operate as TV/stereo players, underscore the need forF 64-bit chips. "That kind of consumer software is really going to startJ choking [32-bit- based] systems when they try to handle high-definition TVG data as well as music, basically forcing the processor to try to handle + eight times as much data at once," he said.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:06:58 -0800 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> @ Subject: Re: Intel Conceding 64-Bit Desktops to IBM, AMD - eWeek8 Message-ID: <20021028100658.3aa4c29f.mathog@caltech.edu>    On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:50:27 GMT$ "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:  4 > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,642927,00.asp  G > Most PC makers will migrate to 64-bit desktop processors this decade, N > analysts said, posing a dilemma for Intel, which fears that a 64-bit PentiumL > could undermine support for its struggling Itanium line. "The moment IntelL > releases an x86-based [Pentium] 64-bit chip, Itanium is dead," said Nathan; > Brookwood, an analyst for Insight 64, in Saratoga, Calif.   / And HP along with it.  VMS too, unfortunately.    > Intel:  We're throwing in the towel on Itanic in favor of P64. HP:     But,but,but,but...@ Intel:  Stop blubbering, we'll still sell you the current model. HP:     Oh thank heavens. 9 Intel:  Of course we'll need to amortize our investment.   HP:     (Carly) Of course!-         (Curly) My heart, aaargh,!!! (Whump!) 7 Intel:  You can have a lot of 10000 Itanium II's at the '         great price of only 100K$ each. / HP:     (Carly) Umm, we may not need that many. 8 Intel:  Ok, you can have 1000 Itanium II's for 1M$ each.= HP:     (Carly) We'll take the larger lot at the lower price.     8 Resulting in the following product announcement in 2004:  9 All the performance you'd expect in 2002 at a 1982 price! E HP is pleased to announce the availability of the Whizbang Itanium II J entry Level VMS server.  This server comes with a single user VMS license,F one Itanium II chip, 2Gb memory, 200Gb serial ATA disk, floppy, cdrom. Prices start at 110K$        Regards,   --   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:07:54 -0800 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>@ Subject: RE: Intel Conceding 64-Bit Desktops to IBM, AMD - eWeek0 Message-ID: <01C27E6A.03A62B10@sulfer.icius.com>  3 Shouldn't that be 1982 performance at a 2020 price?    -----Original Message-----. From: David Mathog [mailto:mathog@caltech.edu]' Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 10:07 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com @ Subject: Re: Intel Conceding 64-Bit Desktops to IBM, AMD - eWeek      On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:50:27 GMT$ "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:  4 > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,642927,00.asp  G > Most PC makers will migrate to 64-bit desktop processors this decade, N > analysts said, posing a dilemma for Intel, which fears that a 64-bit PentiumL > could undermine support for its struggling Itanium line. "The moment IntelL > releases an x86-based [Pentium] 64-bit chip, Itanium is dead," said Nathan; > Brookwood, an analyst for Insight 64, in Saratoga, Calif.   / And HP along with it.  VMS too, unfortunately.    > Intel:  We're throwing in the towel on Itanic in favor of P64. HP:     But,but,but,but...@ Intel:  Stop blubbering, we'll still sell you the current model. HP:     Oh thank heavens. 9 Intel:  Of course we'll need to amortize our investment.   HP:     (Carly) Of course!-         (Curly) My heart, aaargh,!!! (Whump!) 7 Intel:  You can have a lot of 10000 Itanium II's at the '         great price of only 100K$ each. / HP:     (Carly) Umm, we may not need that many. 8 Intel:  Ok, you can have 1000 Itanium II's for 1M$ each.= HP:     (Carly) We'll take the larger lot at the lower price.     8 Resulting in the following product announcement in 2004:  9 All the performance you'd expect in 2002 at a 1982 price! E HP is pleased to announce the availability of the Whizbang Itanium II A entry Level VMS server.  This server comes with a single user VMS  license,F one Itanium II chip, 2Gb memory, 200Gb serial ATA disk, floppy, cdrom. Prices start at 110K$        Regards,   --   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:47:32 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> @ Subject: Re: Intel Conceding 64-Bit Desktops to IBM, AMD - eWeek' Message-ID: <3DBD8644.5070705@MMaz.com>    John Smith wrote:   3 >http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,642927,00.asp  >  >October 21, 2002 , >Intel Conceding 64-Bit Desktops to IBM, AMD >  >By  Ken Popovich  >  > M >Sixty-four-bit computing is coming to the desktop next year, but Intel Corp. I >is gambling that the demand for such power will remain only for high-end  >enterprise systems. > I If Intel were to release an 64-bit X86, they would undermine their IA-64  H efforts!  This could create serious problems for us VMS folks expecting H to run on IA-64 because what was the Compaq rational for killing Alpha? 9  Not enough volume to support the design and fab costs.     C So, if Intel does introduce a 64-bit X64 for the desktop, you know  I manufacturers will introduce servers based on that chip set, essentially  ) killing high volume demand for the IA-64.   G Am I the only one that sees the irony of this?  A major porting effort  E of VMS to another 'low volume and essentially proprietary' chip set?  G  Worse yet, a chip set that HP/Compaq doesn't directly control and may  4 not even be as fast as the Alpha that was abandoned?   Barry    --    @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:59:09 -0500 # From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> % Subject: RE: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING : Message-ID: <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDGEKPCBAA.dallen@nist.gov>   > -----Original Message-----6 > From: Carlos Costa [mailto:carlos.costa@datawest.ca]( > Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 6:21 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ' > Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING  >  > g > "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> wrote in message news:<JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDCEJFCBAA.dallen@nist.gov>...   > > > -----Original Message----- > > O > >      	Are you serious! Do you really think that ANY operating system vendor H > > 	can or will commit to maintaining compatability with latent bugs in? > > 	all of the application software ever developed for the OS!  > C > Excuse me, but yes, I am serious. If you read the above statement F > carefully you will see that that is exactly what HP/Compaq has done.H > They have committed to maintaining 100% binary compatability. I didn'tG > say it, THEY did. If they didn't mean it they shouldn't have said it. H > Binary compatibility is a pretty tight compatibility. It means that noF > program needs to be re-compiled or re-linked. It will work as it is.$ > They even say "no testing needed". > F > Secondly, one of the reasons I pointed that statement out is becauseC > that statement means, to me, that there is a bug in the VMS code.   J 	See Craig Berry's post on the misuse of the context value and name stringJ 	in the FIB in the CSWING source code. Most likely the problem.  Note alsoH 	that this is what I would call a latent application bug, i.e. it is notH 	providing the proper input to the QIO call.  The fact that it worked byG 	chance in 7.3 but fails in 7.3-1 is not what I would call a bug in the E 	OS and I doubt VMS engineering would be motivated to restore the old 
 	behavior.  H > >If not I'd suggest you quit whining about what MIGHT be an OS bug and	 > give us H > >some hard info on what's actually happening. If I had the environment	 > to test C > >the damn thing myself I would have already done it for you! This  > isn't rocketA > >science, it's not even computer science, it's programming 101.  > G > I don't know about that, the particular code is recursive and full of A > VMS specifics. Not for the faint of heart. And please don't get E > personal about this. You're hinting that I'm not as smart as you to C > not have fixed this myself, and you could very well be right. But D > "Don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in his shoes." ButG > you've only seen a small code fragment. There are many more thousands  > of lines.   I 	I said absolutely nothing about your "smarts".  The comment was directed E 	at your focus on your believe that you had uncovered an OS bug based F 	solely on YOUR interpretation what binary compatability meant and theD 	lack of additional data with regard to problems identified by folksC 	more familiar with VMS coding practices.  I encourage you to learn E 	more about the VMS operating system. I've walked many a mile in your G 	shoes and I learned fairly early on that these problems are invariably ( 	a latent problem in MY code not the OS.  J 	I've lurked on this list for quite some time now and I believe the peopleH 	here are more than willing to give of their time and experience helpingL 	anyone from the pure neophyte to the seasoned internals programmer diagnoseL 	and correct problems with their codes. But the way to accomplish that is toI 	post a complete problem description and source code when available. Then N 	follow up and test problems identified by this process and report the results> 	to the list if you are unable to make sense of them yourself.  N 	And as Craig Berry has pointed out (see below) the problem would appear to beN 	an application error in CSWING.  Had you posted a more extensive code snippetH 	including the error processing of the SS$_NOSUCHFILE condition code you5 	likely could have shortcut this effort considerably.   G 	*********** The following analysis thanks to Craig Berry *************V  4 	From get_dirs in swing.c after an IO$_ACCESS qio:              /*  ,         **  file in dir but not indexf.sys           */  (         if (iosb[0] == SS$_NOSUCHFILE)           {  I             fib.fib$l_wcc++;               continue;  I         }  e   C 	Isn't the "wild card context" of the file information block one of E 	those opaque longword values that one should not depend on coming in F 	sequence, much less increment oneself and hope that doing so will notF 	get you in trouble?  I certainly don't see anything in the I/O User'sG 	Guide that suggests I could predict or should attempt to influence theoG 	value of the wcc.  I have a strong suspicion that the code I've quoted B 	is the source of the looping problem.  Section 1.3.1.2 of the I/O 	User's Guide says:    E 	"On the first lookup, FIB$L_WCC should contain zero entries. On eachsD 	lookup, the ACP returns a nonzero value in FIB$L_WCC, which must beD 	passed back on the next lookup call. In addition, you must pass theC 	resultant name string returned by the previous lookup using the P4oC 	result string buffer, and its length in the P3 result length word.IE 	This string is used together with FIB$L_WCC to continue the wildcarda2 	search at the correct position in the directory."   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:00:03 +0000 (UTC)-. From: "Sanface Software" <sanface@sanface.com> Subject: Plug: csv2pdf 1.1H Message-ID: <e7363de68f9b8a2152283ba62d9b2c70.93245@mygate.mailgate.org>  G csv2pdf is a very flexible Perl5 program based on txt2pdf 6.x core.  ItDG allows you to convert all your CSV files to PDF format, and is flexibletF enough to run on any platform that supports PERL like OpenVMS.  It canH be used on its own, or you can use it with other applications to convert your documents on the fly.  > Here are some of the things that you can achieve with csv2pdf:( Automatic grid design around every cell 1 You can select the cell delimiter (default is ;)  6 You can select the cell alignment (lef, right, center)' Obviously you've every txt2pdf feature.    csv2pdf is shareware5 The csv2pdf source code is our company core business.h
 We trust you.i# You can test csv2pdf and modify it.sE You can't use a modify version of csv2pdf for production purpose. YouDG can't resell csv2pdf or a modify version of it without SANFACE Softwared authorization.C You can't copy part of it to include in your source without SANFACEe Software authorization.f    Test csv2pdf 1.1!e6 You can find it at http://www.sanface.com/csv2pdf.html     -- d8 Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:04:30 +0000t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 1 Subject: Re: Quorum disk appears to not be votingn8 Message-ID: <l76qru4g37laeakuvpkceto2fra3hdt5ia@4ax.com>  @ On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:54:22 +0200, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote:  L >The SYSGEN data suggests that you're trying to build a two node NI cluster. >Two things about them:I) > 1) the DECnet address is coded as 1.512n# > 2) the quorum disk is set to DKA1hC >If you have SCSI disks then DKA1 ought to be DKA100, shouldn't it?h  F Not if it is logical unit 1 of SCSI ID zero. Which is perfectly legal.E I said in an earlier post that specifying DKA1: (rather than DKA001:)2F was legal as a quorum disk. However I am not totally sure I ever tried: this when  think about it. I would imagine it should work.  M >If you have two separate systems, connected only by ethernet (i.e. no sharedaK >SCSI) then only one system can have a quorum disk according to the manual.nL >That would be similar to giving that system two votes and forget the quorumI >disk. If you want to have redundancy, one system stays up no matter whatwM >system is shut down then you have one supported option: add a quorum VAX and  >give it one vote too. >m >Hanso >sG >"Stephen McElduff" <stephen.mcelduff@transcore.com> schreef in berichti8 >news:1a941731.0210251401.2e518336@posting.google.com...G >> I am trying to configure a 2 Node DecNet based cluster with a quorum H >> disk. As best I can tell, I have set all of the sysgen parameters (inG >> the modprarams.dat) files on each system such that DKA1 should be myF >> quorum disk.  >>G >> I have configured it to give each node a single vote and to give thedB >> quorum disk a single vote, so that if any single node dies, theH >> cluster will transition but remain available (after a transition) for >> my apps.... >> >>H >> I believe that my quorum disk is not contributing a vote (see details	 >> below)  >> >>> >> A cut/paste from my modparams.dat file follows: (the votes,D >> expected_votes, disk_quorum values are the same on both machines) >>
 >> VOTES=1 >> EXPECTED_VOTES=3 = >> AGEN$INCLUDE_PARAMS SYS$MANAGER:AGEN$NEW_NODE_DEFAULTS.DATt >> SCSNODE="MCTMC1"s >> SCSSYSTEMID=1536d >> NISCS_LOAD_PEA0=1 >> VAXCLUSTER=2w >> DISK_QUORUM="DKA1"k >> QDSKVOTES=1 >> ALLOCLASS=200 >> INTERCONNECT="NI" >> BOOTNODE="N"d >> >>A >> When I either shutdown or disconnect one of the nodes from theeD >> network, the other system "hangs" and doesn't come back until the" >> other system gets booted again. >>I >> I use the Show Cluster Utility to show me the current contents of some I >> values relating to this. Most intriguing is the fact that the value ofr5 >> the QF_VOTE parameter is "NO" for the Quorum disk.e >>H >> I don't understand what I am missing or have wrong that's not letting >> the disk  >> contribute a vote ? >>D >> Also strange is the value of the parameter named QF_SAME. For oneF >> system it is listed with a value of YES, for the other it is listed >> with a value of NO. >>E >> When both systems are online the value of CL_VOTES is 2 (one wouldoE >> expect it to be 3). The value of CL_EXP is 3, as one would expect.e >> >> >> >> >> >> >>A >> In each systartup_vms.com file, I mark the disk on as follows:. >> >>- >> mount/system/cluster $2000$DKA1: LABELNAME. >> >> >>B >> I believe I followed the instructions exactly as in the OpenVMSG >> Cluster Systems Manual relating to how to get a disk to have a vote.o >>I >> I checked for and found a quorum.dat file in the root directory of thee! >> disk drive in question (dka1).  >> >>3 >> Any help would be greatly appreciated..thanks...i   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:00:29 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a1 Subject: Re: Quorum disk appears to not be voting 8 Message-ID: <kn5qruopu4a0vrj53n61t9brpoqbtjl8v5@4ax.com>  1 On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:38:47 GMT, "Colin Butcher" . <colinDOT.butcherAT@xdeltaDOT.coDOT.uk> wrote:  G >If DKA1: is a 'normal' SCSI disc then shouldn't it appear as DKA100: ?:M >The quorum disc is generally best specified as the full device name returnede  D Unless this is a simple mistake then DKA1: is DKA001: not DKA100: ItB is perfectly possible to have a SCSI disk ID of DKA1: under VMS ifD using controllers supporting LUNs. For instance on an HSZ80 I have a DKA1:i   $ sho dev dka1/ful  = Disk $1$DKA1: (XXXA1), device type HSZ80, is online, mounted,"
 file-oriented"?     device, shareable, served to cluster via MSCP Server, error 
 logging is     enabled.   HSZ80A>sho unitk1     LUN                                      Usesy> --------------------------------------------------------------  4   D1                                         STRIPE1E   D2                                         STRIPE2      (partition)cE   D3                                         STRIPE2      (partition)u4   D100                                       STRIPE36   D200                                       DISK600002   D300                                       MIRRZ    B I can also confirm that using the specification DKA1: for a quorum/ disk works fine. It does not need to be DKA001:   K >by f$getsyi("dka100:","fulldevnam") since this stuff happens very early on L >in the boot sequence and an awful lot of the logical names and other things. >you'd like to see aren't there at that stage. >oG >You also need to ensure that the specified quorum disc is visible by aWL >direct path from all systems attempting to use the quorum disc. It needs to> >be visible at the hardware level >>> prompt from all systems. >sH >If the system can't find the specified quorum disc (due to an incorrectK >name) then you won't get a vote from it, which would produce the behaviourm >you've described.  A But the system will be bleating "Please mount the quorum disk" ort similar. -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:04:06 +0530A4 From: Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com> Subject: recursive copyrI Message-ID: <8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C26072AF92@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>d   Hi all,tG Can you please give me the command that will recursively copy files andM. directories with files from source to target.   * Copy dqb0:[000000.vim*...]*.*;* [...]*.*;*   TIAy Tadimeti Kesav KEANE INDIA Ltd.
 E9 - E12, SDFl NEPZ NOIDA - 201 305 
 U.P, INDIA   Telefon: +91-120-456 8210 (211) % e-mail: kesav_tadimeti@keaneindia.comc   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Oct 2002 11:33:34 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)e Subject: Re: recursive copyh0 Message-ID: <apj7ae$6vk$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>   In article <8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C26072AF92@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>, Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com> writes: >Hi all,H >Can you please give me the command that will recursively copy files and/ >directories with files from source to target. A >o+ >Copy dqb0:[000000.vim*...]*.*;* [...]*.*;*a"                                  ^E                                  I think you'll need a real directory >                                  specification here. Otherwise   replace "copy" with "backup".a   Regards,    Chrisotph Gartmann   H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Oct 2002 08:32:15 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)d Subject: Re: recursive copyf3 Message-ID: <2$Hy5B8vbXIS@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C26072AF92@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>, Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com> writes:	 > Hi all,iI > Can you please give me the command that will recursively copy files and 0 > directories with files from source to target.  > , > Copy dqb0:[000000.vim*...]*.*;* [...]*.*;* >   $    That will do it.  So will backup.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:05:06 +0000d( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>H Subject: Re: Rejuvenating OpenVMS [was Re: So I went to the HP IT forum]) Message-ID: <3DBD27F2.3EFFB43D@127.0.0.1>s   Bob Ceculski wrote:  > b > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3DBB2985.B45A651@videotron.ca>... > > Brian Chase wrote:K > > > I think getting OpenVMS back into universities as a general computingrM > > > platform would be very difficult.  VMS has long since lost its momentumt > > > in academia. > > N > > Unix is a clustering wannabe.  VMS has what Unix will have years from now. > >t ...eO > > Having the best clustering system doesn give you any payback unless to make*P > > sure people know you have the best clustering system. If students don't knowO > > VMS is 10 years ahead of Unix in clustering, then students won't tell their J > > future employers that the proposed unix solution is far behind VMS for1 > > clustering and mission critical applications.  ...nA > vms is a legacy system ... its been around 25 years now with nom@ > competition, and it will be around another 25 years ... that's > a heck of a legacy ...  ? However UNIX marketing is 10 years in advance of VMS. If, as JFLH suggests, UNIX catches up and offers from UNIX what they could have fromD VMS [today], with that label with all the stigma, where will VMS be?  H In 2012, Alpha is like the VAX now, say Itanium has a major place in theE compute platform, people will be asking, "how fast does it[anium] runi  UNIX now it can really cluster?"  E At an academic establishment I know, the students do ask "why is that = old VMS system attached to the academic network?" Perception.e  E This is no time to be complacent, in fact it wasn't 10 years ago, and- look where we are.  H VERITAS are currently running ads that they do clusters, didn't spot theH OpenVMS ones... I even had one on a popup from a link I followed to some editorial here.w  F Perhaps some UNIX house will want a bald 'real cluster' experienced 50F year old, or maybe some 20 odd year old UNIX cluster hotshot will haveG me down the employment exchange. (There is another possibility, but the-F future of that is largely out of my hands). Look for a post here, from me, in 2012. -- u? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences0 nclews at csc dot coma   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Oct 2002 06:34:13 -0800- From: jodonnell@hrblock.com (Jason O'Donnell):H Subject: Re: Rejuvenating OpenVMS [was Re: So I went to the HP IT forum]= Message-ID: <9059bf6b.0210280634.2b0ad726@posting.google.com>    > A > vms is a legacy system ... its been around 25 years now with nodA > competition, and it will be around another 25 years ... that's t > a heck of a legacy ...  9 Of course, UNIX is older and therefore more legacy...  :)t   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:43:34 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>0H Subject: Re: Rejuvenating OpenVMS [was Re: So I went to the HP IT forum]J Message-ID: <q2cv9.114954$%h2.101121@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  : "Jason O'Donnell" <jodonnell@hrblock.com> wrote in message7 news:9059bf6b.0210280634.2b0ad726@posting.google.com...t > >dC > > vms is a legacy system ... its been around 25 years now with noaB > > competition, and it will be around another 25 years ... that's > > a heck of a legacy ... > ; > Of course, UNIX is older and therefore more legacy...  :)e     Perception IS reality.  = And HP controls the VMS perception through lack of marketing.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:08:17 +0100e4 From: Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr (Didier Morandi), Subject: SAP? still a market for consultantsB Message-ID: <1fkr7q9.14qsdfd611rnkN%Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>  B I have been suggested to think "go SAP" in case I find no more VMS missions in Europe.e   I have a few questions:t   1. what do you think? > 2. how long it will take to have some (real) knowledge to sellF 3. Should I try to join a Big 6, a small (total_nr - 6), a third-party vendor, or stay independent?   Thanks for your advice.e   D.   ---------------------------h Posted with MacSoup 2.4.6  Remove .nospam to email me.)   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Oct 2002 09:17:25 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)m0 Subject: Re: SAP? still a market for consultants0 Message-ID: <apivb5$2vr$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  y In article <1fkr7q9.14qsdfd611rnkN%Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>, Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr (Didier Morandi) writes:-C >I have been suggested to think "go SAP" in case I find no more VMSm >missions in Europe. >p >I have a few questions: >l >1. what do you think?  O SAP is a huge thing. You'll need to spezialize in some modules. Currently therenI are many vacancies in this field. On the other hand I know of quite a fewUO people who moved and move into this area, even from non data processing related / areas. Until now they are all in good business.   ? >2. how long it will take to have some (real) knowledge to sell    6 months should do.r  G >3. Should I try to join a Big 6, a small (total_nr - 6), a third-partyV >vendor, or stay independent?D  N This is more a question of your personal situation which I don't know anything about.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmanno  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Oct 2002 08:36:38 -0800$ From: bdhobbs18@acm.org (Bill Hobbs)0 Subject: Re: SAP? still a market for consultants= Message-ID: <74ca5032.0210280836.1b8ddff4@posting.google.com>t  ~ Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr (Didier Morandi) wrote in message news:<1fkr7q9.14qsdfd611rnkN%Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>...D > I have been suggested to think "go SAP" in case I find no more VMS > missions in Europe.i   > 1. what do you think?   ? Earlier this year I was applying SAP patches.  One patch was too@ correct the spelling of a function call - I could not locate the? misspelled function so I wonder what kind of testing SAP does. -B Another was a bunch of divide by zero corrections ... in a monitorB display subsystem - I guess SAP never bothered to test the monitorC while things were idle.  There are many, many patches to be applied-B and they have to be cut and pasted manually because the auto-magic$ patch applier doesn't work properly.  D For a product that is supposed to already do everything, my previous4 employer is in its second year of SAP customization.  A Whatever database system one uses with SAP, SAP feels the need tobD block any features that may be useful in the name of portability ...F as long as one continues to use SAP.  One thing that really bit me was@ that dates are in one field and time is in another.  Most of theF databases that I am familiar with use one field for both date and timeD which makes finding entries by begin and end date/time pretty easy. D In SAP I have to select by the begin and end dates, process by begin5 and end times, then do whatever processing is needed.r  B Installing SAP will be very painful.  Your business will no longer@ have clients or customers, they are partners - once you get thatD right, you have become an SAP pod person and you can "correct" those* who have not seen the error of their ways.  C SAP appears to be the Microsoft of the ERP sector: great marketing,iF crap product which one can render as they are great at marketing crap.E  SAP sales people apparently have some of the best reality-distortion  generators on the planet.r  D You asked what do I think?  You can make a lot of money selling yourA services as an SAP consultant ... all you have to do is sell yourS soul.-  @ > 2. how long it will take to have some (real) knowledge to sell  F If you really want to be a SAP consultant, you should take genuine SAPC courses.  If paying for the courses is not a problem, I suspect yousC could have several course certificates within three or four months.e  D There seem to be quite a few positions out there for SAP talent.  MyF resume used to contain the word ABAP, and I was getting about one callE a week for an SAP/ABAP position.  I have since adjusted my resume ands2 the phone has been quiet ... depressingly so.  :-(  F PS: Try to find anything that bad-mouths SAP on the 'net.  It has been@ a while since we last looked, but it sure seemed strange that myF colleagues and I could not find something.  I wonder if this post will
 be "removed"?9  A Now excuse me, I have to take a shower and see if I can get cleanc
 again ... :-|2  F I'm a database programmer / analyst looking for VMS work - SQL, COBOL,@ C, Perl, MQSeries, security clearance, etc..  Send me an e-mail.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:21:09 +0000p2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>0 Subject: Re: SAP? still a market for consultants4 Message-ID: <20021028172109.I31845@eisenschmidt.org>  E Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Bill Hobbs (bdhobbs18@acm.org) Wrote:0 > Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr (Didier Morandi) wrote in message news:<1fkr7q9.14qsdfd611rnkN%Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>...F > > I have been suggested to think "go SAP" in case I find no more VMS > > missions in Europe.  >  > > 1. what do you think?r > A > Earlier this year I was applying SAP patches.  One patch was tofB > correct the spelling of a function call - I could not locate theA > misspelled function so I wonder what kind of testing SAP does. tD > Another was a bunch of divide by zero corrections ... in a monitorD > display subsystem - I guess SAP never bothered to test the monitorE > while things were idle.  There are many, many patches to be appliedgD > and they have to be cut and pasted manually because the auto-magic& > patch applier doesn't work properly. > F > For a product that is supposed to already do everything, my previous6 > employer is in its second year of SAP customization.  @ Your employer did not read the install docs correctly, did they?   SAP Implementation Rules ------------------------ 1) Do not customize SAP  2) Close up shop 3) Install SAP as-is- 4) Open up as a new company 6-12 months later  5) Do as SAP tells you to do  B I was on the Metro here in DC about a year ago with a coworker who@ worked in an SAP shop. An SAP salesman came on the train, and myA coworker accused him of carrying concentrated SAP in liquid form,s? asking him if he was planning to put it in the DC water supply.i  D The SAP salesman looked confused. I wonder sometimes if those people2 have any idea what their silly little products do.  C > Whatever database system one uses with SAP, SAP feels the need toMF > block any features that may be useful in the name of portability ...H > as long as one continues to use SAP.  One thing that really bit me wasB > that dates are in one field and time is in another.  Most of theH > databases that I am familiar with use one field for both date and timeF > which makes finding entries by begin and end date/time pretty easy. F > In SAP I have to select by the begin and end dates, process by begin7 > and end times, then do whatever processing is needed.o  @ Sadly, SAP is not the only one who does this. For some sick, sadC reason, all the mid-tier and high end financial systems want you totC spend a couple million for their software, then drop 1/10th that ondC licensing for an RDBMS. That's fine and dandy, except they then userF that RDBMS as a repository -- they walk around the security model, anyB embedded features that might boost performance (stored procedures,= non-standard indexes, etc) for the sake of "database platform = abstraction". A nobel goal, if they actually accomplished it.l  B Take our new financial system. I don't want to name names, so I'llB call it "Bob". But feel free to do a Google search for "enterpriseB software developed for your specific needs" and see what comes up.  F Anyway, born on an AS/400, then they designed their own custom indexed= sequential flat file that was platform independant, then they8@ retrofitted it for any RDBMS (Oracle, SQL Server, DB2, Informix,F Sybase). Except Bob has around 2000 tables, not a single view, and the3 schema changes from point release to point release.   C Report tools and inadequate, so they've added MS Office plugins andt? Crystal Report extensions, except they all use their COBOL datanF dictionary to drive the results, so if something you need isn't in theL dictionary, the only way to overcome it is for Bob to draw the data directly8 from the database outside their (broken) security model.  D If, for example, everything was abstracted into views, one need onlyC alter an underlying view to correct these sorts of deficiencies. If B security were enforced in the database, access would be faster and more secure.  F But why use an RDBMS for what it's good at? And why fine tune your appB to work well on one database platform when it can be mediocre on a dozen?  D > Installing SAP will be very painful.  Your business will no longerB > have clients or customers, they are partners - once you get thatF > right, you have become an SAP pod person and you can "correct" those, > who have not seen the error of their ways.  F I like this mentality. A system like this is a pain. Partners share in= the benifits and pitfalls of said partnership. Let's make ouro customers suffer.i  E > SAP appears to be the Microsoft of the ERP sector: great marketing, H > crap product which one can render as they are great at marketing crap.G >  SAP sales people apparently have some of the best reality-distortionh > generators on the planet.e  A Ironically, MS bought Great Plains a while back, and turned an OK-D financial app into a piece of crap, but they've not having much luckE selling it. Perhaps if we put butterflies on the cover and play dress  up Times Square?  F > You asked what do I think?  You can make a lot of money selling yourC > services as an SAP consultant ... all you have to do is sell youra > soul.g  D Here here. And once you're soul is gone, join every SAP mailing listD and newsgroup, and then wait for people to ask questions. Instead ofB helping them, schill your services, running your <native language>$ email through a buzz word generator:  = 	SANDY, I'M SORRY YOU'RE HAVING TROUBLE GETTING THAT WORKING.eE 	I'D BE HAPPY TO GIVE YOU A CALL AND DIALOG ABOUT HOW I MIGHT BE ABLEsF 	TO LEVERAGE MY EXPERTISE IN THIS SPECIFIC PIECE OF SAP SUBJECT MATTER; 	IN ORDER TO EFFECTIVELY REACH A SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM. o  ? You two can be the ambulance chaser of the IT industry. Whores.i  B > > 2. how long it will take to have some (real) knowledge to sell > H > If you really want to be a SAP consultant, you should take genuine SAPE > courses.  If paying for the courses is not a problem, I suspect youuE > could have several course certificates within three or four months.e  B If you haven't worked with it before, and this is something you'reC thinking about doing, get a job supporting SAP for an SAP shop. LethB them train you, either sending you to real training or on the job.A You'll find that these sorts of consultants are quick to slam any E other consultants who aren't certified in what they're schilling for.   E And then in six months, when you can't resist the urge to shove sharpt@ objects into your eyes to make the pain of seeing people spend aC fortune for pure crap, either sell off the rest of your soul and goi# out on your own or change careers. v  F > There seem to be quite a few positions out there for SAP talent.  MyH > resume used to contain the word ABAP, and I was getting about one callG > a week for an SAP/ABAP position.  I have since adjusted my resume ande4 > the phone has been quiet ... depressingly so.  :-( > H > PS: Try to find anything that bad-mouths SAP on the 'net.  It has beenB > a while since we last looked, but it sure seemed strange that myH > colleagues and I could not find something.  I wonder if this post will > be "removed"?D  F You can nuke messages posted to Google Groups. Go to groups.google.comE and check out the FAQ. I (on the other hand) try not to post anything,D I wouldn't say to a group of people who worked for said company lastE month at a regional user group meeting, and when they tried to defend E themselves I countered their flawed arguments until they made up somel( excuse for why they needed to walk away.  D Because apparently, 20 years of experience negates you obligation to= develop an application that you charge a Briggs truck full ofrC Benjamins that isn't broken in every conceivable sense of the word.   C > Now excuse me, I have to take a shower and see if I can get cleana > again ... :-|  > H > I'm a database programmer / analyst looking for VMS work - SQL, COBOL,B > C, Perl, MQSeries, security clearance, etc..  Send me an e-mail.  @ I'm a 20-something IT professional who is both jaded and foolishE enough to think I can change the world. Someone loan me a few million D and I'll go develop an account system that doesn't suck. We all need+ dreams, but mine are pretty much fantasies.l  C Though I can see the ads: Britney Spears likes my financial system,r and so should you!   --  / John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> C    Public Key   |  http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/pgp.asc D    Fingerprint  |  5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2J Is this mail an attachment? http://www.jensbenecke.de/misc/outlook.en.html  C "Don't you want a Fanta?" --  http://www.fantanas.com/fantanas.html    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:48:28 +0100a6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>0 Subject: Re: SAP? still a market for consultants) Message-ID: <3DBD786C.2070503@vajhoej.dk>l   Didier Morandi wrote:s  D > I have been suggested to think "go SAP" in case I find no more VMS > missions in Europe.  >  > I have a few questions:! >  > 1. what do you think? @ > 2. how long it will take to have some (real) knowledge to sellH > 3. Should I try to join a Big 6, a small (total_nr - 6), a third-party > vendor, or stay independent?   SAP are still huge business.  2 The finance people may block all other departments1 purchases of hardware/software/services, but they.& usually can find money for their own !   :-)a   Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:40:08 GMTd# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>i0 Subject: Re: SAP? still a market for consultantsI Message-ID: <YDev9.85850$mxk1.50671@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>.  ? "John Eisenschmidt" <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> wrote in messager. news:20021028172109.I31845@eisenschmidt.org... >hB > I'm a 20-something IT professional who is both jaded and foolishG > enough to think I can change the world. Someone loan me a few milliongF > and I'll go develop an account system that doesn't suck. We all need- > dreams, but mine are pretty much fantasies.a >iE > Though I can see the ads: Britney Spears likes my financial system,. > and so should you!  " http://www.sunsystemsamericas.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:45:29 +0000 2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>0 Subject: Re: SAP? still a market for consultants4 Message-ID: <20021028184529.C10239@eisenschmidt.org>  B Unless the Voices are Mistaken, John Smith (a@nonymous.com) Wrote: > A > "John Eisenschmidt" <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> wrote in message 0 > news:20021028172109.I31845@eisenschmidt.org... > >eD > > I'm a 20-something IT professional who is both jaded and foolishI > > enough to think I can change the world. Someone loan me a few millionrH > > and I'll go develop an account system that doesn't suck. We all need/ > > dreams, but mine are pretty much fantasies.e > >nG > > Though I can see the ads: Britney Spears likes my financial system,  > > and so should you! > $ > http://www.sunsystemsamericas.com/  B I smell vapor. That much Javascript can't be the sign of a healthy> company. I have a rule that if the site doesn't render well inA Mozilla, then it's not a company worth considering. That, and theeB sheer lack of technical details scares me. I'd rather you lied andD tried to impress me with buzz words than said nothing -- a strategicC partnership with Microsoft and Oracle does not a good product make.   F I was bitching about these applications not being abstracted properly.E Case in point: websites should be abstracted to run on any platform. r  B Say I build a site and the boss tells me it needs to run on IIS. IC should be able to go to the NT server and check the code out of theoB source control system (because we all use source control, RIGHT?).F Three months later boss says: it needs to move to Webstar on MacOS. Go@ to the Mac, check out the latest source, boom it works. A coupleD months later we start sleeping with IBM, check the latest source out# on my AIX server running Webspere.    A "But lunatic, " you ask, "what about server side programming? Fori, where shall my scripts and the like reside?"  F Well, if you designed it in something portable, like Perl or whatever,A you just load the tool you need on the platform of choice. If youmF designed it on something that isn't portable, you should be shot. ThisA is what the CGI paradigm is for: running non-markup applications.r  C You want speed? Then look at something like mod_perl for Apache. At F least Apache will run on VMS/Unix/Windows/MacOS/ToasterOS/etc. If not,E it's fine with me, just pick something that will allow you to turn on  a dime.   B Now, I know some of you hate Perl, so YMMV. Pick your poison, withF CGIs you could compile ADA and have it executed with your form action.C There is no law that says you can't write a program in assembler tooC dynamically generate the HTML that your web server spews forth, buteD that would kind of shoot my "abstraction" idea, so don't do that ok?  F But don't take my word for it, I think I saw a team of ASP programmersD hanging out in front of 7-11 the other day with "will code for food" signs.   -- ./ John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>oC    Public Key   |  http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/pgp.ascID    Fingerprint  |  5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2J Is this mail an attachment? http://www.jensbenecke.de/misc/outlook.en.html  C "Don't you want a Fanta?" --  http://www.fantanas.com/fantanas.htmlt   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:56:27 GMTo% From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian Chase)e) Subject: Re: So I went to the HP IT forumo& Message-ID: <H4nuA3.7Go@world.std.com>  5 In article <apgtsj$1egcu$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>,e) Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:-  L > If VMS is to survive and especially if it is ever to see even minor growthJ > it is going to be necesssary to get it back into the minds of the peopleK > who make computing decisions.  That starts in school where these decisionaK > makers have their thought processes formed.  A solid education program isoH > vital.  After all, if BSD had remained locked away at AT&T rather thanK > being dumped into every (or nearly every) CS program by BSD would Unix ber > what it is today?o  G I doubt Unix would exist in much of any form today had AT&T not been sofI generous to universities and researchers by allowing access to the sourcedJ code, and as a consequence, making it very inexpensive for universities to run on their computer systems.  G OpenVMS doesn't have any chance of long-term survival unless new peoplea? are exposed to it, and the absolute best place to do this is inuE universities.  If HP are willing to offer no-cost OpenVMS licenses tovJ schools, and if there are competent admins who can acquire and manage someH systems on which to run it, I can see nothing but good coming of such anF arrangement.  The only substantial investment would come from the timeH volunteered by the admins who're wanting to keep VMS alive; and I'm sureF this is something that would be perceived as being more enjoyable than unpleasant for them.  J HP holds the key, literally and figuratively, with their licensing.  If HPF aren't willing to offer truly cheap multiuser licenses for educationalG institutions, then I can't see how /anyone/ could possibly believe thatSJ VMS has any sort of long term future.  VMS has practically zero visibilityE for anyone who's graduated in the past five years or so; and it's not.
 improving.  I I don't know who else on the newsgroup have the positions at universitiesiD or means to introduce VMS to their schools, but I think those peopleI should investigate what exactly it would take to run some VMS systems for E student use.  If it's feasible, then I think those people should workeI together, offering HP a proposal for running VMS with the condition that  7 HP provide free (or cost of media) multiuser licensing.i   -brian.r --  F --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----+ Font-o-Meter!      Proportional  Monospaceda'                                       ^T   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:47:15 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>o) Subject: Re: So I went to the HP IT forum 8 Message-ID: <ea5qruke1haucc3il995dtsgotsi61s8j1@4ax.com>  C On 26 Oct 2002 14:23:22 GMT, bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)f wrote:  > >In article <857e9e41.0210251832.16f24298@posting.google.com>,5 >	susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes:t >> Jim,r >>  O >> Thank you for your feedback on this event.  I have forwarded to Mark and MJ.  >  >Sue,sI >   Maybe you should consider forwarding the whole discussion to them.  I 6 >doubt it is likely they will be reading it otherwise.  @ Mark Gorham appears to read comp.os.vms/info-vax on a regular orD semi-regular basis. I have had email responses from Mark to comments
 made here.   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Oct 2002 13:17:57 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: So I went to the HP IT forum 5 Message-ID: <apjde3$224id$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>(  8 In article <ea5qruke1haucc3il995dtsgotsi61s8j1@4ax.com>,( 	Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:E > On 26 Oct 2002 14:23:22 GMT, bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)U > wrote: > ? >>In article <857e9e41.0210251832.16f24298@posting.google.com>,V6 >>	susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes: >>> Jim, >>> P >>> Thank you for your feedback on this event.  I have forwarded to Mark and MJ. >> >>Sue,J >>   Maybe you should consider forwarding the whole discussion to them.  I7 >>doubt it is likely they will be reading it otherwise.> > B > Mark Gorham appears to read comp.os.vms/info-vax on a regular orF > semi-regular basis. I have had email responses from Mark to comments > made here.  G So maybe we should just post something asking him if he is reading thishA and soliciting his comments??  Oh wait, I think I just did!!  :-)c   bill     -- ?J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Oct 2002 05:18:29 -0800) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)a) Subject: Re: So I went to the HP IT forumo= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0210280518.51740476@posting.google.com>E  e bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<apgtsj$1egcu$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>...s > J > But your talking about two different things here.  The Education ProgramI > and CSLG are two totally different things.  CSLG is expensive and thereeG > is no incentive for schools to pay it as there is no percieved value..  @ Yes, CSLG is something that is best (should only be?) done at a D University wide level. Not much point a single School opting for it,D as that would get expensive. We still have enough Faculties using it@ to make it a very pleasant option (I have nothing to do with the? central admin of it so I can't give actual (mostly Tru64 based)t	 numbers).K  G > For example, my department has a budget of $0 for VMS.  I provide theoK > equipment from my personal stash and my time setting up and administeringeJ > them because I, personally, think it is important for the students to beL > exposed to OSes other than Windows and Unix.  (That's also why I have been   I'll agree 100%i  C In this case, I think it is a bit rude of your management to decideK8 this, if you are doing this, you should be given some $.  A The Academics here do value the opinion of the support staff (but 9 then again I'm in Commerce and Economics not Comp. Sci.).U  F Our Information Systems School decided to teach something about OracleE and the suggestion made to me was Window(tm) NT Oracle server and you  get to look after it.2  D The answer was "I really really really think that is a bad idea", anB Alpha was purchased from Compaq, and the course has been run usingF Oracle under Tru64 (we have no site license for Oracle under OpenVMS -C otherwise ... you guessed it). I think Oracle has even come out and E put in a guest lecturer a couple of times. In one of the two courses, B students even get to telnet in and create their database instances= (shock! horror! use of a command line interface rather than an
 mouse :-).  H > vital.  After all, if BSD had remained locked away at AT&T rather thanK > being dumped into every (or nearly every) CS program by BSD would Unix be  > what it is today?f  B No it would not, I agree. VMS and UNIX (level 6/7 stuff) have beenC around at UNSW since around 1979/1980. People were hacking the UNIX B source - one guy was particually good at hacking up device driversF for various bits of PDP11 kit. VMS source was there too (I still thinkB I've got the V3 source on 9 track somewhere which I rescued when IC started working there in 1989 or so) - but folk were not game to doo
 much with it.-   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Oct 2002 15:41:57 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: So I went to the HP IT forumi5 Message-ID: <apjls4$25lb2$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>7  = In article <55f85d77.0210280518.51740476@posting.google.com>,t, 	P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) writes:g > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<apgtsj$1egcu$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>...  >> eH >> For example, my department has a budget of $0 for VMS.  I provide theL >> equipment from my personal stash and my time setting up and administeringK >> them because I, personally, think it is important for the students to be M >> exposed to OSes other than Windows and Unix.  (That's also why I have beene >  > I'll agree 100%@ > E > In this case, I think it is a bit rude of your management to decide2: > this, if you are doing this, you should be given some $.  I I think you missed the point.  Why would they give me money for somethingeG they don't want.  I feel it is important enough that I am willing to goAJ that little bit extra.  Officially, the University is no longer interestedI in Academic VMS.  Their answer is more likely to be "Stop doing it, it iseG taking time away from your real job." rather than "Here's some money to 
 support VMS."w   > C > The Academics here do value the opinion of the support staff (but-; > then again I'm in Commerce and Economics not Comp. Sci.).n  E They value my opinion, but I don't set policy and I don't set budget.oE Money is tight and it get's spent where the University thinks it willa@ accomplish the most.  In todays environment, that is not on VMS.   > H > Our Information Systems School decided to teach something about OracleG > and the suggestion made to me was Window(tm) NT Oracle server and you- > get to look after it.- > F > The answer was "I really really really think that is a bad idea", an  G Nice thought, I would say the same.  And I would then be told, "We havecD $3000 for hardware. And MS will give us educational pricing on Win2KD Server."  Can't buy an Alpha for that and the price for VMS is a bitF more too.  By the way, I mentioned that I was still using VAX, I doubtD that I could run Oracle on any of them.  I have no machine here that8 would be capable of supporting our own copy of Oracle.    D > Alpha was purchased from Compaq, and the course has been run usingH > Oracle under Tru64 (we have no site license for Oracle under OpenVMS -E > otherwise ... you guessed it). I think Oracle has even come out andhG > put in a guest lecturer a couple of times. In one of the two courses,iD > students even get to telnet in and create their database instances? > (shock! horror! use of a command line interface rather than a: > mouse :-).  F Our students do that all the time.  Only they do it with Postgres. :-)   > I >> vital.  After all, if BSD had remained locked away at AT&T rather thanaL >> being dumped into every (or nearly every) CS program by BSD would Unix be >> what it is today? > D > No it would not, I agree. VMS and UNIX (level 6/7 stuff) have beenE > around at UNSW since around 1979/1980. People were hacking the UNIXmD > source - one guy was particually good at hacking up device driversH > for various bits of PDP11 kit. VMS source was there too (I still thinkD > I've got the V3 source on 9 track somewhere which I rescued when IE > started working there in 1989 or so) - but folk were not game to dod > much with it.h  F But remember, there were a lot of schools that used BSD Unix and neverG once looked at the source.  It wasn't just CS Students that got exposedfH to Unix, it was all of them.  And it shows.  VMS used to be that way tooI (but not to the same extent.)  Unix is still being used in Schools every-i/ where.  VMS is not.  Who is loosing what here??    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:46:26 GMTs From: pawe@hotmail.com% Subject: Stop the extinction...  3549n= Message-ID: <ms9v9.4511$xX6.315@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>   S Please read this itll only take you a minute - it could be your local area next...!eThe corporations are at it again, this time focussing their attentions on a small part of the SW of England. A large international mining company claims to have found platinum in the UK and in their quest for money are going to extinquish at least 1 species from our planet. Butterflies, birds, small mammals, fish and even some plants are at risk from extinction if this corporate monster is not stopped.-   Please, please, please send as many emails as you can to register your views at info@mcleaninternationalmining.com - like i said, it could be your area next...    Thanks Harry  P.A.W.ED0 mcetusstbowmgytwlmzuwymuoytkxoxecgykubvzgdmnqmkl   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:47:50 GMTn. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)) Subject: RE: Timezone-change observationsy5 Message-ID: <qB8v9.190774$N_6.2795984@news.chello.at>a  t In article <001001c27e6b$bbdf01b0$14010a0a@home.schumi.ch>, "Kurt A. Schumacher" <Kurt.Schumacher@schumi.ch> writes:G >On the other hand, to come back to Peter original request, I think theu! >  "TCPWARE_TIMEZONE" = "+010000"0 >        = "MET"& >  "TCPWARE_TIMEZONE_NAME" = "MET-DST"G >      definitions are correct, the timezone name "MET-DST" must not be2E >changed in the tcpware_configure.com twice a year. The last variablesI >item remaining in tcpware_configure.com is $ NETCU_TIMEZONE  == "+0200",aC >and this one should no longer be required with future development.s >UH >These entries are fine IMHO, and don't need to be changed twice a year: > # >$ NETCU_TIMEZONE_NAME == "MET-DST"r# >$ NETCU_TIMEZONE_RULES == "EUROPE"-  K You think, NETCU_TIMEZONE_NAME == "MET-DST" is the index into the rule filer* and not the name of the current timezone ?G That means, MET with DST switches regardless if it's winter or summer ?kK That would make sense and then I would agree, that TCPware does it correct.n  F I remove the NETCU_TIMEZONE line from my TCPWARE:TCPWARE_CONFIGURE.COM" and see what happens in spring ;-)  E >Out of question, time synching using NTP, TIMED or similar is a goodoH >thing anyway, but this does not update the time zone related variables.   Agreed.    Thanks   -- d Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER-% Network and OpenVMS system specialist. E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:27:41 GMT ( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>) Subject: Re: Timezone-change observationsn+ Message-ID: <3DBD81BC.C10356B1@pacbell.net>d   Hmmm! My Alpha didn't change correctly.e3 I'm running VMS 7.2 w/ TCPIP 5.1. My logicals show:d&   "SYS$TIMEZONE_DAYLIGHT_SAVING" = "1"(   "SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL" = "-25200"   "SYS$TIMEZONE_NAME" = "PDT"d5   "SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE" = "PST8PDT7,M4.1.0/2,M10.5.0/2"z  ) Still PDT. I wonder wht this didn't work?      Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote: > D > Because summertime ended today, I thought I share my observations. > ; > 1) Local Time (SHOW TIME) was correct on VAX and Alpha !!w1 >         I'm running VMS V7.3 and TCPware V5.6-2 P >         but no longer DECdts (which made perfect timezone changes for years !) > 9 > 2) VMS timezone logicals showed correct values on Alphat; >         but showed wrong (still summertime) values on VAX B >         (just like as there happened no timezone change on VAX -? >         which seems logical [but unacceptable] as there is no-5 >         AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV parameter in SYSGEN on VAX)I > & >         SYS$TIMEZONE_DAYLIGHT_SAVING# >         SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL  >         SYS$TIMEZONE_NAME  > 9 > 3) TCPWARE_TIMEZONE_NAME Logical contained wrong values 8 >         ("MET-DST" instead of "MET") on both platformsE >         while TCPWARE_TIMEZONE Logical contained the correct valuesm > 8 > 4) SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE on Alpha contains a wrong formula > 7 >                 "MET-1MET DST-2,M3.5.0/02,M10.4.0/03"m > instead of7 >                 "MET-1MET DST-2,M3.5.0/02,M10.5.0/03"c >  > while on VAX5 >                 "MET-1MET_DST-2,M3.5.0/2,M10.5.0/3"  > F > I saw this (and another) bug in DECdts some years ago for some yearsL > but it is - at least in DECdts - fixed for some years now. It surprises meJ > that such a bug reappears in VMS timezones now. And why only on Alpha... > @ > 5) One still needs to fix TCPware startup files as there is in > TCPWARE:TCPWARE_CONFIGURE.COMp > & >         $ NETCU_TIMEZONE  == "+0200", >         $ NETCU_TIMEZONE_NAME == "MET-DST", >         $ NETCU_TIMEZONE_RULES == "EUROPE" > I > Which seems silly, because a fixed timezone value and name doesn't makeAP > sense while there is an automatic change (TCPWARE_TIMEZONE_RULES) implemented. >  > -- > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER ' > Network and OpenVMS system specialist  > E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atH > A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist     -- v   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com)o
 San Franciscod   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:28:01 +0100s/ From: "Jean-Yves Meuric" <jy.meuric@wanadoo.fr>. Subject: Re: TPU port to Linux3 Message-ID: <apj3f7$ga8$1@news-reader11.wanadoo.fr>a   SEDT is now freeware:i( http://users.rcn.com/anker/sedt/sedt.htmF I've been using SEDT on many Unix platforms during years: works great!> Current problem: the links to the downloads seem to be broken.' I'm trying to contact Anker about that.s  
 Jean-Yves.  I "Atlant Schmidt" <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> a crit dans le message deP) news: 3DB6A414.1880BE33@mindspring.com...n > Kesav Tadimeti wrote:  >t > > Hi all,r1 > > Is there a port of EVE or EDT for Unix/Linux.o >a) > Anker Berg-Sonne (sp?) wrote SEDT quitee0 > a few years ago; I understand that this is now > freeware.b >h >i >sL > > Using Emacs / Vi is very cumbersome.  BTW, do Digital unix users have to use  > > Vi or do they use EVE? >S2 > What's the matter? Don't you like typing triple-' > bucky-alt-shift-control-~ every thirdt > command? :-) >t) > You do know that there is an EDT keypade( > emulation mode in (X)Emacs, right? (In$ > some versions of Emacs and XEmacs,, > though, it's documented as being broken --! > typical Emac's half-assedness!)y >r. > Seriously, on Solaris, I use vi (or vim) for- > nearly everything, only reverting to XEmacsr/ > when I've got some huge project to perform ons3 > a single (or very few) files. Or if I really needs% > overstrike editing to edit a table.t >s* > Once you learn to use vi's "map" command+ > to define keystrokes, a lot of (X)Emacs'sb+ > advantages disappear. Heck, I've even got., > a fair share of the EDT keypad mapped into- > vi (although nowadays, I forget to use it).  > - > On Macintosh, I have vim and some flavor of , > Emacs but I *USE* BBEdit. Unlike (X)Emacs,2 > BBEdit seems to actually get the syntax coloring
 > correct! >f > Atlant >. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:08:47 -0800 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>2 Subject: VMS docs use webtrends to track browsers.0 Message-ID: <01C27E61.B97427C0@sulfer.icius.com>  B I just noticed something. When I flip from page to page on the VMS- documentation, my browser briefly connects to0E "statse.webtrendslive.com". Curious, I checked the privacy policy andRG sure enough, they use web beacons. Three click-levels down I found some5F addresses for opting out of being tracked by /five/ separate companiesG Compaq used. For those of you interested, here's Compaq's list of linkso( (yes, it's still a Compaq branded page):- http://www.compaq.com/privacy/thirdparty.htmlb  H You may note that most of the "opt out" cookies these sites offer to set$ have expiry dates. Just so you know.   Shane    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.596 ************************