1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 03 Sep 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 485       Contents: Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article3 Re: A Slashdot newbie, question on CD and a 4000/60  Re: Alpha vs Vax? 0 Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?0 Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?0 Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?0 Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?0 Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?0 Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?0 RE: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?	 Re: am/pm 	 Re: am/pm 	 Re: am/pm 	 Re: am/pm 	 Re: am/pm ? Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?) ? Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?) ? Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?) ? Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?) ? Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?) ? Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?) ? Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?)  Another stupid newbie question. # Re: Another stupid newbie question. # Re: Another stupid newbie question. # Re: Another stupid newbie question. # Re: Another stupid newbie question. # Re: Another stupid newbie question. < Re: Anyone else noticed the Microsoft ad that calls VMS Unix Anyone need a RX50?  Re: Escape Sequences Re: Escape Sequences Re: Escape Sequences' Re: Fortune Magazine and a post-VMS rap  Re: Help installing Pine" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly7 Re: Humm, I am getting confused between a PDP and a Vax 7 Re: Humm, I am getting confused between a PDP and a Vax  Itanic2 performance  Re: Itanic2 performance  Re: Itanic2 performance ) Re: Maybe it's SAS v8.2 for alpha VMS bug 9 Re: netscape/modzilla/HP/open-source: system requirements 9 Re: netscape/modzilla/HP/open-source: system requirements  Re: Remote Site Cluster Member9 Re: Secret New Products (was: Is the HP/Compaq merger...) A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? " Re: silliest thing heard this week Re: Stupid newbie question Re: VMS for i86   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 22:46:43 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: "inview" Article , Message-ID: <3D74228F.8E976DDE@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:B > One might argue that NSK is the gold standard for shared nothingC > clusters while OpenVMS is the gold standard for shared everything  > clusters.   I It is often said here that VMS' clustering is superior is part due to the  shared everything paradigm.   1 But how does one counter a Unix argument such as: I "Our version of clustering uses the same paradigm as the best known fault < tolerant system: Tandem, and VMS doesn't use that paradigm".   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 03:07:29 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: "inview" Article A Message-ID: <RHVc9.116803$On.4954394@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D74228F.8E976DDE@videotron.ca... > "Main, Kerry" wrote:D > > One might argue that NSK is the gold standard for shared nothingE > > clusters while OpenVMS is the gold standard for shared everything 
 > > clusters.  > K > It is often said here that VMS' clustering is superior is part due to the  > shared everything paradigm.  > 3 > But how does one counter a Unix argument such as: K > "Our version of clustering uses the same paradigm as the best known fault > > tolerant system: Tandem, and VMS doesn't use that paradigm".  K One counters *both* assertions with the observation that what counts is not I what category one may place a system in but what functionality it offers. K And both can provide comparable functionality (though with the exception of K NSK VMS's implementation is far more mature than those of the other Unixes,   for whatever that may be worth).  K One can also observe that even the categorizations are somewhat fuzzy.  VMS J clusters certainly don't share everything ('shared-everything' technicallyK includes sharing memory, for example) - they're most known for concurrently H sharing direct access to storage devices (which most Unix systems don't,F though Tru64 does to some degree), though there may well also be otherK functions that are more distributed than they are in typical Unix clusters. K And typical applications on VMS clusters are often more fail-over in nature H (an attribute at least somewhat associated with shared-nothing clusters)J than composed of multiple concurrently-cooperating instances (an attributeJ at least somewhat associated with shared-resource clusters).  On the otherG side, Unix-style fail-over at the storage device level implies that the K storage device is connected to multiple hosts even if only one of them uses B it under normal circumstances:  this is resource sharing, just not concurrent sharing.   L As far as storage goes, the main advantage of being able to share concurrentK direct access to a storage device is to allow processing resources to scale L independently of storage (and avoid bottlenecking a high-performance storageK device - or significantly increasing its effective cost - by requiring that K all access to it funnel through some server).  On the other hand, funneling J through a server effectively creates a far more intelligent storage deviceJ (e.g., one that serves files rather than disk blocks), which can more thanL compensate for any such drawbacks if its processing resources are reasonablyF matched to its storage resources.  My own belief is that the future ofH storage will be dominated by far smarter storage devices that serve dataK mostly at the file level and cooperate as a distributed storage system that K multiple clients can access:  while in one sense this is similar to the VMS J shared-storage-device model (all clients connect directly and concurrentlyH to all storage devices), in another it's similar to the Unix served-dataL model (when you consider that the storage devices are in fact file servers).  D So the moral is:  don't get hung up on definitions or architectures.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2002 22:50 CDT' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)  Subject: Re: "inview" Article , Message-ID: <2SEP200222503439@gerg.tamu.edu>  1 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes...  }"Main, Kerry" wrote: C }> One might argue that NSK is the gold standard for shared nothing D }> clusters while OpenVMS is the gold standard for shared everything }> clusters. } J }It is often said here that VMS' clustering is superior is part due to the }shared everything paradigm. } 2 }But how does one counter a Unix argument such as:J }"Our version of clustering uses the same paradigm as the best known fault= }tolerant system: Tandem, and VMS doesn't use that paradigm".   G You might say something like, "But you use it without the same hardware H redundancy to go with it, rendering it comparatively useless. VMS avoids4 this problem by using a better clustering paradigm."   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 04:33:17 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: "inview" Article C Message-ID: <hYWc9.374557$m91.14971455@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   4 "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message& news:2SEP200222503439@gerg.tamu.edu...3 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes...  > }"Main, Kerry" wrote: E > }> One might argue that NSK is the gold standard for shared nothing F > }> clusters while OpenVMS is the gold standard for shared everything > }> clusters. > } L > }It is often said here that VMS' clustering is superior is part due to the > }shared everything paradigm. > } 4 > }But how does one counter a Unix argument such as:L > }"Our version of clustering uses the same paradigm as the best known fault? > }tolerant system: Tandem, and VMS doesn't use that paradigm".  > I > You might say something like, "But you use it without the same hardware J > redundancy to go with it, rendering it comparatively useless. VMS avoids6 > this problem by using a better clustering paradigm."  H You might, but you would be wrong.  VMS-style redundancy is functionallyJ very similar to Unix-style redundancy, and neither is similar to NSK-styleJ redundancy:  VMS and Unix are not fault-tolerant in the same way NSK is inK the sense of guaranteeing *correct* continuing operation in the presence of I a fault (because they don't have the hardware-level lock-step consistency E checking that NSK has) - they just guarantee continuing operation and L *assume* that any faults will cause a node to fail before it does any damageL to the surviving portion of the system (an assumption which is aided, thoughK still in no way guaranteed, by an OS that performs continuous and extensive G internal consistency checking of its own, but that's not a *clustering*  characteristic).  K Unix-style clustering is about as 'comparatively useless' as VMS clustering L is.  In other words, not.  While there are elements of the VMS approach thatI are a bit more flexible and certainly more mature, they don't rise to the H level of dramatic differentiation any more and are rapidly ceasing to be! significant at all for most uses.    - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Sep 2002 05:21:36 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>< Subject: Re: A Slashdot newbie, question on CD and a 4000/60- Message-ID: <87sn0sxf33.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   , "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net> writes:  % > So basicly use a null modem cable:)  > N > Humm.  Going to have to fish around our place.  We got ALOT of old dec junk. > N > Anyone know of a good terminal emulator then?  And why should I use a VT320,, > or VT220?  What is so diffrent than VT100?   Kermit.   ) You also need an MMJ cable, and a H8571J.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 20:49:00 +0200 @ From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk> Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax?+ Message-ID: <3D73B29C.4050800@mail.tele.dk>    WarlockD wrote:   K > Humm, I think we have a TK50 tape drive somewhere at work, just on a side  > note, are they decent drives?   - TK50 are both slow and has very low capacity.   + They were not very nice to work with in the - late 1980's. And they are probably completely  useless today.   Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 18:02:47 GMT * From: "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net>9 Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400? = Message-ID: <bJNc9.92444$kp.736628@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>   K I have this VAX 4000/60 vs a DEC 3000/400  I looked up the 3000 and it says  its a 133Mhz processor.   K But I don't know if thats as relevent on the Dec side.  I found the 3000 in   the bottom of a pile of 8088's:P  K So what is the better mashine though with the specs of a 3000 it looks much  better:P  $ (No frame buffer is in the 3000/400)5 "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote in message ( news:ltBc9.327239$UU1.56100@sccrnsc03...K Wow, I just found out the dec we have is a 3000/240 is an alpha system.  We  also have two 3000/120's  H Should I get the alpha or the Vax?  Can I tell the diffrence in speed or preformance in VMS?    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 18:09:04 GMT * From: "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net>9 Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400? = Message-ID: <4PNc9.92533$kp.736757@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>    Here is some more info   Vax Station 4000/60      VS46K-AD     CPU KA46     Series BA46A   DEc 3000 400     PE40A-A9     KN15-BA  Series BA47A
 Video PMAGB-B   ! Sorry it does have a video card:P     5 "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote in message 7 news:bJNc9.92444$kp.736628@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... K I have this VAX 4000/60 vs a DEC 3000/400  I looked up the 3000 and it says  its a 133Mhz processor.   K But I don't know if thats as relevent on the Dec side.  I found the 3000 in   the bottom of a pile of 8088's:P  K So what is the better mashine though with the specs of a 3000 it looks much  better:P  $ (No frame buffer is in the 3000/400)5 "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote in message ( news:ltBc9.327239$UU1.56100@sccrnsc03...K Wow, I just found out the dec we have is a 3000/240 is an alpha system.  We  also have two 3000/120's  H Should I get the alpha or the Vax?  Can I tell the diffrence in speed or preformance in VMS?    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 18:36:27 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>9 Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400? 0 Message-ID: <3D73AE29.E041E56F@blueyonder.co.uk>  C If its one or 'tother then get the 3000-400, unless you need a vax.   > Get both if you want a mixed architecture hobbyist cluster :-)   4000/60 is a nice desktop VAX.   Regards,   WarlockD wrote:  >  > Here is some more info >  > Vax Station 4000/60  >     VS46K-AD >     CPU KA46 >     Series BA46A >  > DEc 3000 400 >     PE40A-A9
 >     KN15-BA  > Series BA47A > Video PMAGB-B  > # > Sorry it does have a video card:P  > 7 > "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote in message 9 > news:bJNc9.92444$kp.736628@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... M > I have this VAX 4000/60 vs a DEC 3000/400  I looked up the 3000 and it says  > its a 133Mhz processor.  > M > But I don't know if thats as relevent on the Dec side.  I found the 3000 in " > the bottom of a pile of 8088's:P > M > So what is the better mashine though with the specs of a 3000 it looks much 
 > better:P > & > (No frame buffer is in the 3000/400)7 > "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote in message * > news:ltBc9.327239$UU1.56100@sccrnsc03...M > Wow, I just found out the dec we have is a 3000/240 is an alpha system.  We  > also have two 3000/120's > J > Should I get the alpha or the Vax?  Can I tell the diffrence in speed or > preformance in VMS?    --   tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk    H * PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 20:53:09 +0200 @ From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk>9 Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400? + Message-ID: <3D73B395.9000807@mail.tele.dk>    WarlockD wrote:   M > I have this VAX 4000/60 vs a DEC 3000/400  I looked up the 3000 and it says  > its a 133Mhz processor.     M > So what is the better mashine though with the specs of a 3000 it looks much 
 > better:P  2 The 3000/400 is one of the first Alpha's. Actually4 a pretty good system. Ofcourse not as fast as todays- Alphas. But I have on ethat is still running.   - The 4000/60 was one of the latest VAXstations - and also a nice box. I know people that still  have them running.  / The 3000/400 is approx. 7 times faster CPU wise 1 than the 4000/60, so if you only want one and you 1 do not require a VAX, then I would say go for the  Alpha.   Arne  / PS: Note that the 3000/400 has TurboChannel bus       not PCI bus.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 18:21:56 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)9 Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400? J Message-ID: <rdeininger-0209021821560001@1cust52.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>  H In article <4PNc9.92533$kp.736757@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>, "WarlockD"  <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote:   >Here is some more info  >  >Vax Station 4000/60
 >    VS46K-AD 
 >    CPU KA46  >    Series BA46A  > 
 >DEc 3000 400 
 >    PE40A-A9  >    KN15-BA
 >Series BA47A  >Video PMAGB-B > " >Sorry it does have a video card:P  J The DEC 3000 400 is an early alpha system.  It can be configured as eitherF a server or a workstation.  It was very nearly the fastest workstationH available when it was new.  (It's cousin, the DEC 3000 500, beat it.)  IA don't know the numbers, but it is much faster than the VAXstation0J 4000/60.  It will also outperform many of the PCI-based alpha systems that are a year or two newer.  I If you like fiddling, the DEC 3000 family is one of the few alpha systemswH for which the low-level system architecture documents were made public. C This was in the days before PCI became widely accepted, and DEC was H exceedingly open with the Turbochannel architecture used in the DEC 3000E systems.  A few years later, they dropped turbochannel completely andtD embraced PCI.  Having used both, I think the industry made the wrong choice, as usual.l  ( There is some DEC 3000 info around here:F     http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~prescott/linux/alpha/dec3000-sysinfo.html  J Add-on bits for DEC 3000 systems show up on ebay occasionally.  Unless theF systems are equipped with CD-ROM drives, you will need to obtain one. C These drives were rare on the VAX systems, and fairly common on theeG Alphas.  IIRC, this was one of the last alpha systems that did not comet& with a CD drive as standard equipment.  F If you get the DEC 3000-400, there is a potential problem with the oldI version of the SROM.  Upgrading from a particular old version of firmwarenJ to the next old version could render the system dead.  All recent versions? of firmware can cope with the old SROM, so it is probably safe.   3 Of course, I think you should procure both systems.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 22:36:15 GMT * From: "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net>9 Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?e= Message-ID: <zJRc9.95031$kp.741986@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>d   Humm an alpha and a Vax.  K I got my AS400, an HP85, not mention the large amount of old macs:P  Can mys8 house sustain another one without blowing breakers..hehe  E As it states now, I am not sure either work.  The cable that I had todI connect upto the termianl is not the right one, so I don't know if eithers system is good or dead  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message D news:rdeininger-0209021821560001@1cust52.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net...H In article <4PNc9.92533$kp.736757@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>, "WarlockD"  <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote:   >Here is some more infoF >z >Vax Station 4000/60
 >    VS46K-ADu
 >    CPU KA46i >    Series BA46Ag >D
 >DEc 3000 4007
 >    PE40A-A9c >    KN15-BA
 >Series BA47A  >Video PMAGB-B >t" >Sorry it does have a video card:P  J The DEC 3000 400 is an early alpha system.  It can be configured as eitherF a server or a workstation.  It was very nearly the fastest workstationH available when it was new.  (It's cousin, the DEC 3000 500, beat it.)  IA don't know the numbers, but it is much faster than the VAXstation J 4000/60.  It will also outperform many of the PCI-based alpha systems that are a year or two newer.  I If you like fiddling, the DEC 3000 family is one of the few alpha systemsmG for which the low-level system architecture documents were made public.eC This was in the days before PCI became widely accepted, and DEC wasJH exceedingly open with the Turbochannel architecture used in the DEC 3000E systems.  A few years later, they dropped turbochannel completely andtD embraced PCI.  Having used both, I think the industry made the wrong choice, as usual.d  ( There is some DEC 3000 info around here:F     http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~prescott/linux/alpha/dec3000-sysinfo.html  J Add-on bits for DEC 3000 systems show up on ebay occasionally.  Unless theE systems are equipped with CD-ROM drives, you will need to obtain one.gC These drives were rare on the VAX systems, and fairly common on thetG Alphas.  IIRC, this was one of the last alpha systems that did not comeo& with a CD drive as standard equipment.  F If you get the DEC 3000-400, there is a potential problem with the oldI version of the SROM.  Upgrading from a particular old version of firmware'J to the next old version could render the system dead.  All recent versions? of firmware can cope with the old SROM, so it is probably safe.c  3 Of course, I think you should procure both systems.a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 20:40:09 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>k9 Subject: RE: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?vT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660995@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  F As a fyi and add-on to some of Rob's comments .. For those who want toA do some relative "rough" comparisons of VAX vs. Alpha performances levels, check out:F http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_by_perf.html (Alpha performance levels)h  H http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_by_perf_dec.html (VAX perf levels)  C Note - Fwiw, I have a few DEC 3000 model 400 servers kicking arounds@ (including one of my home systems) and they are great lab / test? systems. I just installed V7.3-1 on two of them with no issues.m   Regardsu    
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Servicesa Voice: 613-592-4660a Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----< From: Robert Deininger [mailto:rdeininger@mindspring.com]=20 Sent: September 2, 2002 6:22 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 9 Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?y    H In article <4PNc9.92533$kp.736757@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>, "WarlockD"  <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote:   >Here is some more infom >  >Vax Station 4000/60
 >    VS46K-ADe
 >    CPU KA46l >    Series BA46A  >c
 >DEc 3000 400m
 >    PE40A-A9n >    KN15-BA
 >Series BA47Af >Video PMAGB-B >o" >Sorry it does have a video card:P  C The DEC 3000 400 is an early alpha system.  It can be configured asbA either a server or a workstation.  It was very nearly the fastestaG workstation available when it was new.  (It's cousin, the DEC 3000 500,tC beat it.)  I don't know the numbers, but it is much faster than theMH VAXstation 4000/60.  It will also outperform many of the PCI-based alpha% systems that are a year or two newer.e  A If you like fiddling, the DEC 3000 family is one of the few alpha G systems for which the low-level system architecture documents were made 
 public.=20C This was in the days before PCI became widely accepted, and DEC was-H exceedingly open with the Turbochannel architecture used in the DEC 3000E systems.  A few years later, they dropped turbochannel completely andgD embraced PCI.  Having used both, I think the industry made the wrong choice, as usual.   ( There is some DEC 3000 info around here:F     http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~prescott/linux/alpha/dec3000-sysinfo.html  F Add-on bits for DEC 3000 systems show up on ebay occasionally.  UnlessD the systems are equipped with CD-ROM drives, you will need to obtain one.=20BC These drives were rare on the VAX systems, and fairly common on theuG Alphas.  IIRC, this was one of the last alpha systems that did not come & with a CD drive as standard equipment.  F If you get the DEC 3000-400, there is a potential problem with the old@ version of the SROM.  Upgrading from a particular old version ofC firmware to the next old version could render the system dead.  All @ recent versions of firmware can cope with the old SROM, so it is probably safe.  3 Of course, I think you should procure both systems.:   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:00:34 -0400s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a Subject: Re: am/pm, Message-ID: <3D7425CD.23E50219@videotron.ca>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:: > 3.) In the 24-hour system, people say times like 0700 as$ > "O-seven-hundred hours" for 0700.    Nop, that is military time.c  N Normal 24 hour time is just 7 o'clock. or seven twenty one, or fourteen twenty one, or twenty two fifty one.t  J In french, at the top of the hour, we say "treize heures". Not sure how in0 english they say 13:00. 13 o'clock sounds weird.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:50:12 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n Subject: Re: am/pm, Message-ID: <3D74316B.B609736C@videotron.ca>   Ok, another suggestion:u   change AM PM to BL and AL.     Before Lunch andd After Luncha   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 03:58:21 GMT - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>. Subject: Re: am/pm* Message-ID: <3D742E79.5060502@qsl.network>   JF Mezei wrote:n > Ok, another suggestion:y >  > change AM PM to BL and AL. >  > Before Lunch > anda
 > After Lunchn  8 That will not work for people that are perminently O.T.L   -Johns wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyt   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2002 21:42:20 -0700e$ From: bdhobbs18@acm.org (Bill Hobbs) Subject: Re: am/pm= Message-ID: <74ca5032.0209022042.346e057e@posting.google.com>   J > I think there were some other chronographs with 24 hour faces as well. IJ > can picture the face but I can't place a name to it right at the moment.  D Somewhere around here I have a Glycen(sp?) wristwatch which has a 24F hour face.  As I recall, it was kinda large for a watch.  Bought it inD Mississippi when I was learning to fly back in 1975.  I enjoyed whenF folk would glance at it and then say something like "that can't be the right time".  :-)e  F About a year ago, I searched the web for train tables to show that theA US seems to be the only country whose general population does not D understand the 24 hour clock.  Heck, Canada and Mexico use a 24 hour clock for their schedules.  E As far as 12 am and 12 pm, my mother-out-law has about a 50/50 chance0D of mis-programming her VCR for a noon or midnight show.  But then itE wasn't important until she got a VCR - before, she would say or write E "noon" or "midnight" and people seemed to understand.  Ain't progresso wonderful?  :-)    From a summary of ISO 8601 ate, http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html
 [begin paste]aB As every day both starts and ends with midnight, the two notationsC 00:00 and 24:00 are available to distinguish the two midnights that B can be associated with one date. This means that the following two2 notations refer to exactly the same point in time:  # 1995-02-04 24:00 = 1995-02-05 00:00W  C In case an unambiguous representation of time is required, 00:00 islB usually the preferred notation for midnight and not 24:00. Digital# clocks display 00:00 and not 24:00.  [end paste]=  C Read further down this web page to see what Markus Kuhn (or is thisa@ actually in ISO 8601?) thinks about the 12 hour clock and am/pm.  D What time is oh-dark-thirty, anyway?!?  I keep forgetting to look at) the clock when I get a trouble call.  ;-)r  D After we're done beating clocks to death, I'd like to schedule paper= sizes for similar abuse - is next Monday good for y'all?  :-pb   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2002 22:18:46 -0700-. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: am/pm= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0209022118.393c0705@posting.google.com>   U "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message news:<jpDc9.2297$Y3.349214@news.xtra.co.nz>...e= > "Alan E. Feldman" <SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM> wrote in messaget8 > news:343f30ae.0209012104.3121e1c@posting.google.com... > G > > In a similar vein: There was once some experimentation in the earlyoJ > > days of railroads with a single rail on the ground and the second railG > > in the air hanging from posts. The disadvantages of this system arek2 > > obvious, which is why you don't see any today. > K > Tsk, tsk :-) Ever seen a tram line? Three rails for sure if you count the3I > wire on top but sort of similar to what you say. Still around, sort of.t    F Yes, we have that here, too. But I was talking about actual supporting@ rails. There would be only one rail on the ground and the secondD *supporting* rail would be above the train. I have a picture of suchE in a book called "The Subway" by Stan Fischler, p. 116. The train car3' in the picture has derailed, of course.    [...]o  I > > First of all, I am not saying that the am/pm system is better. I saidBF > > that each has its strengths and weaknesses. Someone asked what theD > > weaknesses are of the 24-hour system, and I simply answered that
 > > question.> > B > Fair enough but ... All the disadvatages you've mentioned so far@ > revolve around the fact that users of the 12-hour system wouldA > be unhappy with the 24-hour one (can't sell, hard to read etc).hF > It has little to do with the system itself, just what the people are
 > used to.    D Well, for those people, it is a disadvantage. An analog clock at theD top of a building gives it a very different character than a digital clock.  C Well, ad/disadvantages mean nothing without context. Advantages andrD disadvantages don't exist in a vacuum. Some items may have qualitiesE that are advantages in one context, but are disadvantages in another. A And I'd say selling clocks in the U.S. is an important "context".   ' One man's trash is another man's gold!      A > For example: I've recently seen an old grandfather clock (stilly@ > working btw) which had it's hours marked in old Latin numbers.B > Done in a sort of curly script too. Do you think this would sellC > a lot of copies outside of auctions? After all, this thing weighsoD > more than some people even. Is it the fault of the 12-hour system?    D No, in this case it is the fault of form first, function second. YouB can screw almost anything up. But you'd be hard-pressed to make an" easy-to-read 24-hour anaolg clock.    @ > > Actually, I am very glad that VMS uses 24-hour time -- am/pm6 > > really sucks on computers. I never said otherwise. > $ > Why on computers but nowhere else?    D Because on computers I need to list files. I often want to sort themF by time. I don't need to do that elsewhere. On computers one often hasE to compare times in a program. Who would want to write programs to donD that in the am/pm system? OK, you'd have to at least translate times@ to am/pm if you were using the program to publish schedules, but< everything else on computers should be 24-hour time, period.  @ And I do wish that VMS used YYYY-MM-DAY just for the purposes ofF sorting. When I sort files by time, I have to use a program that callsF EDT macros and such, all because the native time format has unsortableE months and day month year out of order. I suppose one could loop thrutB a list of files with their time stamps and convert the times usingA f$cvtime(), but I wrote this program long ago. Not sure right nowuD (it's late) which would be better, except that the one I have now is
 already done.   B Yeah, I know you can change that by defining a certain logical andA rebooting and such, but I don't want to do that as it might cause0> problems with someone's code somewhere. I want to stick to the standard setup.   D In civil use, you don't write programs when referring to a schedule.C And the schedule will usually list times in order, so comparison ofhB times is not too hard. And it's just pretty damn ugly to see am/pm times on a computer.  = And remember, for civil use, I can go with either system. ForaF computers, am/pm really, really stinks. Except for the fact that I wasE born, rasied, and live in the U.S., and am therefore used to am/pm, ItE prefer 24-hour time. Similarly, while I think Celsius makes much morerD sense than Farenheit, I am so used to the latter that if you tell meC 86 deg. F. I immediately have an idea of how hot it is while if youoA tell me 30 deg. C., I have to think about it first. Actually, one-F could argue that Kelvin is the best! Depends on the context though! If1 you are doing thermodynamics, Kelvin is the best.     I > > The 24-hour system is extremely logical, mathematically sensible, andnA > > convenient, especially for use on computers. All I was sayingeI > > originally is that if you are using am/pm, for whatever reason, it isrJ > > logical, mathematically sensible, convenient, to assign pm to 1200 andH > > am to 0000. In fact, it is the de facto system on electronic devices > > that use am and pm.A > D > Hmmm, I wonder if you can demonstrate a watch or clock that, using< > am/pm convention, can actually show both 00:00 and 12:00 ?    A I'm not sure what you mean here. When I write times in the formateF xxxx, I am implying 24-hour format. And since I am discussing possibleB ways to specify components of the 12-hour format, I can't use that  format for the underlying times!  F So, I am saying, when converting from 24-hour to am/pm, 0000 --> 12:00B a.m.; 1200 --> 12:00 p.m. Also, I don't want to say 12 noon and 12E midnight because with standard time, noon almost never occurs at 1200eC standard time. So I have to use *something*. So I use 24-hour time, - since we're all agreed on how that one works.h  E There is a lot more to time than first meets the eyes. You have to bea
 very careful.e    G > Plus, you got me confused there: which of the pm1200 or am0000 standsiK > for midnight (or noon)? Rethorical question of course, before the answersu > start rolling in ...     OK.    Disclaimer: JMO/ Alan E. Feldmani spamsink2001 at yahoo dot com    ------------------------------    Date: 03 Sep 2002 05:32:18 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>H Subject: Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?)- Message-ID: <87ofbgxel9.fsf@prep.synonet.com>    "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz> writes:   B > Pardon me, but if both AM and PM start *after* both midnight andD > noon, what do you call those? After all, it's not for nothing that4 > the concept of a zero was introduced, you know ...  ? Well, consider. Is zero strictly positive or strictly negative?o  E 1200 is nether before, ante, or after, post, meridinal passage. It ISfE meridinal passage. 2400, aka 0000 does not count anyway, as you can't- do a sun sight then :)   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.4@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 22:13:42 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> H Subject: Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?), Message-ID: <3D741AD4.D8041907@videotron.ca>   Another point:  ) in a decimal system, you get from 0 to 9.-! In seconds, you get from 0 to 59.a. in a 24 hour clock, you go from 00:00 to 23:59  M The USA 12 hour clock is strange because if you go to a "12" numeric system, H  there shouldn't ever be a 12:00.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:08:29 -0400c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>eH Subject: Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?), Message-ID: <3D7427A8.33F75EF3@videotron.ca>  	 AG wrote:a@ > Hrrrm, 12.59 + 00.01 = 01.00? Want to build some math theorems > on top of that?i  J Ok, found the solution. Keep the 12 hour clock, but change the calendar toM have 730 days of 12 hours each. And then you have "dark" and "daylight" days.l   :-)e   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2002 21:05:35 -0700e. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)H Subject: Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?)= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0209022005.3330230d@posting.google.com>C  a Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message news:<87ofbgxel9.fsf@prep.synonet.com>...h > "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz> writes:  > D > > Pardon me, but if both AM and PM start *after* both midnight andF > > noon, what do you call those? After all, it's not for nothing that6 > > the concept of a zero was introduced, you know ... > A > Well, consider. Is zero strictly positive or strictly negative?  > G > 1200 is nether before, ante, or after, post, meridinal passage. It ISpG > meridinal passage. 2400, aka 0000 does not count anyway, as you can'ta > do a sun sight then :)    F That's only if you insist on sticking with the obsolete definitions ofE am and pm *and* if you use local solar time. We don't use local solargB time. We use standard time, and the two are very different. See my+ other posts on this topic for more details.   A The time 1200 (standard time) is not "meridinal passage". The sunsD rarely crosses the meridian at precisely 1200 standard time anywhereE on the planet. This is because the sun crosses the meridian 4 minuteshA early for each degree you are east of your time zone meridian and0F because of the variation of the sun about its mean position due to theD equation of time. Please see my other posts for more details or do a8 search for "equation of time" or go to www.analemma.com.  B So, if you are 4 degrees east of your time zone's meridian, strictE interpretation of ante meridiem and post meridiem as being before anda@ after noon, respectively, would give you the following sequence:   11:54 am 11:55 am 11:56 noon (well, maybe pm!) 11:57 pm 11:58 pm 11:59 pm 12:00 pm 12:01 pm ...b  D But that is in obvious contradiction to common usage. Therefore, theC literal interpretaion of am and pm are not applicable to the modern)1 world. Please see my other posts for more detail.t  C And if daylight saving time were in effect, the sun would cross then@ meridian an entire hour earlier making things even worse for the archaic am and pm definitions.   Disclaimer: JMO9 Alan E. Feldmanr spamsink2001 at yahoo dot coma   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2002 21:18:31 -0700c. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)H Subject: Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?)= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0209022018.2db9e5d3@posting.google.com>.  U "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message news:<5xfc9.1954$Y3.300756@news.xtra.co.nz>...V= > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message 9 > news:b096a4ee.0208291949.5c135598@posting.google.com...S5 > > Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message & >  news:<3D6E90F5.D3EF7C16@aaa.com>... > > > About AM/PM... > > > B > > > Just skip am/pm all together and use 00:00:00  --  23::59.59& > > > as in most parts of the world... > > >a > > > Jan-Erik Sderholm.E > >0 > >tG > > Well, until the whole world uses the 24-hour system, many must dealAH > > with am/pm. And if you use am/pm electronic devices, be advised thatG > > 12:00 am is midnight and 12:00 pm is noon. If one has to use am/pm,0G > > that is the simplest, most convenient, most logical, most sensible,a > > most mathematicale > @ > Hrrrm, 12.59 + 00.01 = 01.00? Want to build some math theorems > on top of that?-     You misinterpreted me.  B I did not say that am/pm was the most sensible system. I said thatB *if* you are using the am/pm system, for whatever reason, then theE most sensible thing to do when assigning am and pm values to 0000 and @ 1200 is to make the former 12:00 am and the latter 12:00 pm. ***C That's very different from saying that the am/pm system is the mostE sensible system. *** OKAY???  E Math theorems? Sure. The literal '12' becomes a synonym for zero. ThewA values am/pm are placed in its own column between the day and thet/ hour. Assign 0 to am and 1 to pm. Then you haveiF yyyy-mm-dd:am/pm:hh:mm:ss where each has its own range of numbers. AndF a rollover in one column causes the value in the next-bigger column toB be incremented by one. Pretty much the same as the 24-hour system.  F Before you misinterpret me again, let me repeat from my other posts: IC very much prefer the 24-hour system for system clocks on computers. E But for civil use, I can do either. But if you are stuck using am/pm, B or prefer using am/pm, the convention I outlined here and in other posts is the best.   Disclaimer: JMO< Alan E. Feldmani spamsink2001 at yahoo dot comm   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2002 21:29:40 -0700r. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)H Subject: Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?)= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0209022029.742467ce@posting.google.com>   e Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message news:<no76nu09b1gfo0d1n6qq4glhlc80otktna@4ax.com>...a" > From the home of GMT (Zulu, UTC) > , > http://greenwichmeantime.com/info/noon.htm    B These otherwise fine professionals are being fuddy-duddies when itD comes to am/pm. Authorities are not always correct, as in this case.E If people never questioned anything, we'd still be living in the Darkn Ages.h     > AM and PMa > What is Noon and Midnight?> > AM and PM start immediately after Midnight and Noon (Midday) > respectively.2 > F > This means that 00:00 AM or 00:00 PM (or 12:00 AM and 12:00 PM) have
 > no meaning.7    .C That's true only for local solar time. We don't live by local solar A time. We live by standard time, which is very different. And witheF standard time, the sun rarely crosses the meridian precisely at 12:00.$ Please see my other posts as to why.    H > Every day starts precisely at midnight and AM starts immediately after= > that point in time e.g. 00:00:01 AM (see also leap seconds)      Only for local solar time.    H > To avoid confusion timetables, when scheduling around midnight, preferD > to use either 23:59 or 00:01 to avoid confusion as to which day is > being referred to.    < As I stated in my other posts, I have no objections to this.    = > It is after Noon that PM starts e.g. 00:00:01 PM (12:00:01)o    D For local solar time, maybe. For standard time, not so. If you are 4F degrees east of your time zone's meridian, the *average* time that theD sun crosses the meridian would be 11:56. So you would make that noonE and 11:57, 11:58, ... pm and then vary that according to the equationoD of time? Doesn't sound sensible to me. But that's what you'd have toA do to stick with those antiquated, obsolete definitions of am and. pm!!!f     Disclaimer: JMO, Alan E. Feldmanw spamsink2001 at yahoo dot comm   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2002 21:35:48 -0700n. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)H Subject: Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?)= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0209022035.4d466802@posting.google.com>1  a Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message news:<87ofbgxel9.fsf@prep.synonet.com>...  > "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz> writes:  > D > > Pardon me, but if both AM and PM start *after* both midnight andF > > noon, what do you call those? After all, it's not for nothing that6 > > the concept of a zero was introduced, you know ... > A > Well, consider. Is zero strictly positive or strictly negative?t > G > 1200 is nether before, ante, or after, post, meridinal passage. It ISoG > meridinal passage. 2400, aka 0000 does not count anyway, as you can'te > do a sun sight then :)     CORRECTION!!!:  F Oops! In my first response to this, I said that during daylight savingF time, the sun would cross the meridian an hour earlier. Bzzzzzzt! MakeD that an hour later. (This is because if the sun crosses the meridianA at 11:56 standard time, that would be 12:56 daylight saving time,o which is "an hour later".)   Sorry for goof.?   Disclaimer: JMO- Alan E. Feldman- spamsink2001 at yahoo dot com    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 20:05:06 GMTm* From: "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net>( Subject: Another stupid newbie question.= Message-ID: <SvPc9.93756$kp.738864@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>>  J How do you hook into console mode in a Vax 4000/60?  I got a VT320 and itsG hooked up right, or I would rather hook it up to the serial port in thei	 computer.s  A All the how-to documentations don't seem to have this simple infoa   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 22:32:02 GMTo* From: "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net>, Subject: Re: Another stupid newbie question./ Message-ID: <CFRc9.274273$983.531717@rwcrnsc53>e   AH! G Ok I found the problem.  Apparently the consol cord I was using has thea' wires swapped around like a phone cord.e  K Grrrr.  Irritating to have the terminal and the VAX, but not the right kinde# of cable.  Hope fry's has the ends.n    5 "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote in messagen7 news:SvPc9.93756$kp.738864@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... J How do you hook into console mode in a Vax 4000/60?  I got a VT320 and itsG hooked up right, or I would rather hook it up to the serial port in thee	 computer..  A All the how-to documentations don't seem to have this simple infoe   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:25:44 GMTe* From: "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net>, Subject: Re: Another stupid newbie question.= Message-ID: <YrSc9.95335$kp.742059@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>m   YEA!  K We had a bunch of VT320 terminals come in and I found the cord!  I was ablet1 to hook up the VAX and get it to the boot prompt.p  L Unfornantly its not the same with the alpha.  The lights in the back 7 6 5 4K are steady, but nothing else.  Even hitting the reset nothing happens.  ButgC the mashines are side by side, so I know the connection is working.A  K Anyone know how much generaly VT320 working terminals are work with cables?i- Going to be putting those up on ebay as well.r  5 "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote in messagei7 news:SvPc9.93756$kp.738864@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... J How do you hook into console mode in a Vax 4000/60?  I got a VT320 and itsG hooked up right, or I would rather hook it up to the serial port in thea	 computer..  A All the how-to documentations don't seem to have this simple info    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:38:14 GMTo- From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>e, Subject: Re: Another stupid newbie question.* Message-ID: <3D73FF71.5000508@qsl.network>   WarlockD wrote:a > AH! I > Ok I found the problem.  Apparently the consol cord I was using has the.) > wires swapped around like a phone cord.   G With MOD-TAP cables, the cables normally have the wires twisted.  This e; allows them to be used in most cases with out any adapters.   ; The wiring of the console port and a terminal are both DTE.y  @ This is documented in the OpenVMS FAQ, available in a link from  http://www.openvms.compaq.com/   -Johnd wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 22:54:44 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger), Subject: Re: Another stupid newbie question.K Message-ID: <rdeininger-0209022254440001@1cust125.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>f  H In article <YrSc9.95335$kp.742059@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>, "WarlockD"  <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote:   >YEA!i >fL >We had a bunch of VT320 terminals come in and I found the cord!  I was able2 >to hook up the VAX and get it to the boot prompt. >aM >Unfornantly its not the same with the alpha.  The lights in the back 7 6 5 4sL >are steady, but nothing else.  Even hitting the reset nothing happens.  ButD >the mashines are side by side, so I know the connection is working.  G The console port on the DEC 3000-400 alpha is the MMJ (modified modulariD jack) port - the one that looks like a phone plug except the plug isJ offset -- if the system is in serial console mode.  The baud rate is 9600.  I If the system is in graphics console mode, the MMJ port will NOT act as a E console, and you won't get any output there on power up.  In graphicso@ console mode, you should have a monitor, a keyboard, and a mouseG connected.  (Yes, the system can tell if there's a monitor connected to F the graphics adapter.)  If any of these are lacking, the firmware willI detect the problem.  This might result in a console message on the screenn? (which you won't see if there's no monitor), or an LED pattern.   G The keyboard and mouse plug into an adapter cable, which plugs into thewH back of the system.  Don't lose the cable!  They are a bit hard to find.  I The console mode is determined by the position of toggle switch S3, whichxJ is only sensed on power-up.  Place the switch DOWN for the serial console.  H There is also supposed to be a network console capability, using the MOPC protocol.  (VMS running on your VAXstation would have the necessarygH software.)  But I've never been able to get the network console to work,H on any DEC 3000 system.  I suspect it was dropped from later versions ofG the firmware to make room for something else.  But I've never seen that  documented, either.   J Your LED code (7,6,5,4 lit) is F0 in hexadecimal.  The diagnostic table in? the System Programmer's Manual says this means the console code I successfully loaded into memory, but the system failed to execute it.  IfiG this is accurate, the system failed too early to send any output to thefE console.  This would likely be due to scrozzled firmware in the flashdI ROMs.  But I would not trust this diagnosis until you verify your console0 connection.   G There is one last way to talk to the system.  There is a "mini-console"tJ implemented in the SROM, which communicates via two diagnostic pins on the? CPU chip.  These pins are connected to a jumper position on theeJ motherboard, but are not connected to the outside of the box.  I have beenH unable to find the pin-out for the jumper, but rumor says the voltage onH the pins is somewhat weird.  A level-shifting circuit is need to connect% the jumper to a standard RS-232 port.,  B The mini-console was intended for factory diagnostics and firmwareH development.  I believe firmware developers had tools to allow the flashJ ROMs to be updated via the mini-console port.  If anyone knows how to makeB the mini-console port work, I'd be interested in hearing about it.     -- Roberto   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:37:59 -0400a( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>, Subject: Re: Another stupid newbie question., Message-ID: <3D743CA7.4050807@tsoft-inc.com>   WarlockD wrote:h   > AH! I > Ok I found the problem.  Apparently the consol cord I was using has thet) > wires swapped around like a phone cord.2    G I'm not sure about phone cords crossing the wires, but, for the serial aP connection to the VT-320, the line MUST have the positions switched.  It is a 6 O line cord.  3 and 4 are ground.  2 and 5 are xmit and recv.  2 at one end goes 0K to 5 at the other end, and 5 goes to 2.  These are MMJ plugs, with the key  M offset to one side.  I think that the key side is pin 6, this is from memory.   T This plugs into the third jack from the left, as viewed from the rear of the system.  L You must open the small panel on the front right bottom, as viewed from the @ front, and find the 'S3' switch, and put it in the top position.  M I'm pretty sure all this is in the FAQ.  HAve you acquired and studied these?r    M > Grrrr.  Irritating to have the terminal and the VAX, but not the right kind % > of cable.  Hope fry's has the ends.o >  > 7 > "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote in messagee9 > news:SvPc9.93756$kp.738864@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...dL > How do you hook into console mode in a Vax 4000/60?  I got a VT320 and itsI > hooked up right, or I would rather hook it up to the serial port in the: > computer.w > C > All the how-to documentations don't seem to have this simple info.    ? I'll bet a buck that the FAQ will answer 95% of your questions.    Dave   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 22:19:44 +0200" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>E Subject: Re: Anyone else noticed the Microsoft ad that calls VMS Unixa6 Message-ID: <al0h5e$1mkhrk$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>  8 "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> schreef in bericht# news:KWOkIB1stYX0@elias.decus.ch...cE > In article <akqbve$1l4n67$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>, "Hans Vlems"s <hvlems@iae.nl> writes:0K > > Since VMS docs got sold with Sun station hardware on it this example ofoK > > marketing is hardly worth mentioning. Furthermore MS staff has problems.L > > enough figuring out what runs and what not on their own incompatible set ofI > > operating systems that they are excused of having any knowledge aboutt! > > systems that live outside MS.r > >dF > So you are saying that MS are a bunch of narrow minded incompetents? > A > Ooh - do a google on "dll hell", written by their own folks :-)d  
 Well Paul,I I had that coming, right? OK my message could be read that way, not quitea2 unintentionally so I guess. Seriously, two things:F One: Microsoft owns a big chunk of the OS market. MS may be excused inC thinking that all the others are marginally important OS's at best.sJ Narrowminded, perhaps but the attitude is perhaps similar to what IBM went; through 20 years ago (snowwhite and the 7 dwarves attitude)tG Two: MS engineers are not incompetent (I guess, never actually met one,1G never felt the urge) but they are working on bigger and bigger OS's andsE other products and individual heroics are no longer working to make amH product working and succesful. I was referring to the project managementE effort that is required to make it work (together). That must be verye4 difficult. That achievement by itself is impressive.  K But you get what you pay for. Windows XP Home Edition is a lot cheaper thaniE VMS and its layered products to make it roughly comparable. The pricebD difference shows up when problems occur, not when things are running	 smoothly.1L Example: today one of our NT 4 server went down owing to a hardware failure.I The terms and conditions of the maintenance contract allowed IBM to deferuL repair until Wednesday or Thursday. All the applications live in a SAN, onlyG the OS is on a local harddisk. The NT guru's cannot find an easy way tofL rebuild/transfer the old disk contents to another server. A task that is tooJ trivial for words with VMS. Conclusion, maturity and quality take time and cost money (a lot).    Hans   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 17:44:28 GMT-* From: "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net> Subject: Anyone need a RX50?? Message-ID: <0sNc9.109030$_91.141305@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>e  D Found one in our tape isle.  Sell it for 10, and I think 10 shippingK anywhere in the states.  Ship oversease if you have a UPS or Fedex Account.3  < Just thought I would post here before I throw it up on Ebay.   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Sep 2002 04:58:11 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: Escape Sequences - Message-ID: <873cssyuqk.fsf@prep.synonet.com>u  ! Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> writes:m  E > Who can remember the effects of setting process name to ^E (controloD > E) when a user did $ show system on a VT100 ?  :-) A long time ago > ...i  8 Before or after you `improved' his answerback string? :)   -- h< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 22:05:08 -0000m( From: Paul Williams <news@celigne.co.uk> Subject: Re: Escape Sequencess: Message-ID: <Xns927DEADC6FF1Cnewscelignecouk@216.168.3.30>  0 Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in  news:3D724D16.3DB23F2C@Free.fr:    > Roy Omond wrote: >> *& >> Even easier, just hit Escape twice. >  > on a VT100 ?  " Why not? The VT100 has an ESC key.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2002 21:34 CDT' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)i Subject: Re: Escape Sequencesn, Message-ID: <2SEP200221345067@gerg.tamu.edu>   Roy@Omond.net writes...m }Didier Morandi wrote: }  }> within EDT: }>\ }> PF1 27 (numeric in main keyboard) PF1 3 (on numeric keyboard, which is "special insert"). } $ }Even easier, just hit Escape twice.
 }Roy Omond  ? And if you don't have an "Escape" key, you can use control-3 ort7 control-[ instead. (Still doing them twice, of course.)k  9 Unfortuantely, these don't seem to work in newer editors.y   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2002 18:54:01 -0700 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)0 Subject: Re: Fortune Magazine and a post-VMS rap= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0209021754.70ad5933@posting.google.com>2  f "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<eh679.42899$983.58105@rwcrnsc53>...< > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3D5C8FD2.1BC525E4@videotron.ca... > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:t< > > > > Really? Where does it say that HP/Q will continue toJ > > > > develop/produce/support Alpha machines until such time (if any) asN > > > > commercially viable, ready-for-prime-time Enterprise-class IPF systems# > > > > begin shipping in quantity?r > > >lI > > > Shucks, that seems to be implicit by now. Haven't heard much to thetL > > > contrary, at least at user group meetings and customer briefings, etc. > >  > > It should read:e > >l0 > > "Shucks, that seems to be implicit FOR now." > > I > > Development of Alpha well past EV8 was also implicit prior to June 25  >  2001,+ > > with work begun for projects up to EV8.m > > J > > As long as HP is on publicly announced financial targets, the level of >  worryK > > is lower. But if HP starts to lag behind predictions and Carly is under0H > > pressure to further do stuff Wall Street likes to hear (consolidate,M > > eliminate, downsize, rightsize, cut costs, streamline etc), then all bets1 >  are6 > > off since Alpha is not a strategic product for HP. > L > As long as it's bringing in money 'n margins, which it is doing now and isG > all but certain (but then again, I'm no Wall Street Casino Analyst oreJ > Coin-Operated Market Research Firm) to continue to do for several years,M > Alpha is a keeper. The Tru64 to HP-UX multiple-organ transplant won't occuroK > overnite, nor will the fielding of VMS-capable IPF gear. Hence I maintainoL > that Alpha will be a strategic product for at least several years to come. > K > That said, the aforementioned statement is not inconsistent with your FORe > NOW assertion. > M > And now for some food for thought. HPQ had some pretty impressive plans forhL > Tru64. Availability would have approached that of NSK (process pairing andM > mirroring, etc), lots of new reliability and scalability features, etc. The % > fate of these plans is now unknown.  > N > But let's assume the day comes that HP-UX and the ongoing COE effort yield aJ > UNIX that offers complete feature and function parity with VMS. Your VMSL > apps run in the environment. End users don't notice any difference. Ditto,N > more or less, for managers. This hypothetical day comes to pass right aroundL > the ~2006 timeframe of the post-Marvel, post-Superdome big-ass IPF server.N > If these assumptions come to pass, does it really matter what the underlying > OS is? > ( > Not a troll, just an idea to consider, >  > Best,w > 	 > terry sl  C forget it!  you can't turn vms into unix ... and I will not give up0@ the rms and dcl for unix garbage ... I can not train people withB commands like GOINK and PLUNK, but they do seem to understand COPYC and SEARCH a lot better ... and ease of use is just one of the manyiF strenghts of vms that I refuse to give up, and just when after readingB the Gold Standard paper I and others posted do you think unix willH catch up to vms? 10-20 years maybe if you read that clustering paper ...   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 22:28:11 +0200" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>! Subject: Re: Help installing Pinei6 Message-ID: <al0hl1$1lu4hv$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>  K Compilation warnings are repeated by the LINKER and the LIBRARIAN to signaltK that something may have escaped the programmer's attention. Could very well.L be that the program was written in C and that the compiler had some warnings> that had no effect on code quality (that seems possible in C).J So all the object files are stored in an object library (.OLB filetype): aI convenient way to store all those compiler output files without getting a-  directory with too many entries.  $ (next comment in your original text)  9 "Francisco Ortega" <fortega@iblues.cc> schreef in berichto: news:pU5c9.10080$FJ1.607249@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...L > Well, I did that, I realize that is not compiling well, some gets compiledH > but at the end , I'm getting this compiling errors. Can you or someone else > help. thanks >n+ > VMSBUILD-I-LIBRARY, Creating PICO library > > %LIBRAR-W-COMCOD, compilation warnings in module OS_VMS file > DKA0:[DATA.FRANCISC6* > O.PINE.PINE-3-91-BETA8.PICO]OS_VMS.OBJ;1< > %LIBRAR-W-COMCOD, compilation warnings in module PICO file > DKA0:[DATA.FRANCISCO.h& > PINE.PINE-3-91-BETA8.PICO]PICO.OBJ;1; > %VMSBUILD-I-LINK, Linking stand-alone PICO editor utilityn& > %LINK-W-WRNERS, compilation warnings >         in module PICO file-6 > DKA0:[DATA.FRANCISCO.PINE.PINE-3-91-BETA8.PICO]PICO. > OLB;1c& > %LINK-W-WRNERS, compilation warnings >         in module OS_VMS file-4 > DKA0:[DATA.FRANCISCO.PINE.PINE-3-91-BETA8.PICO]PIC	 > O.OLB;1 5 > %LINK-W-MULDEF, symbol DECC$UNLINK multiply definedhC >         in module DECC$SHR file SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$SHR.EXE;1tF > %VMSBUILD-I-CCLIENT, Building C-client library with DEC C and NO TCP support4 > $  >aL CC/PREFIX=(ALL,EXCEPT=(SOCKET,CONNECT,BIND,LISTEN,SOCKET_READ,SOCKET_WRITE,S > OC >sL KET_CLOSE,SELECT,ACCEPT,BCMP,BCOPY,BZERO,GETHOSTBYNAME,GETHOSTBYADDR,GETPEER > NAME > L ,GETDTABLESIZE,HTONS,HTONL,NTOHS,NTOHL,SEND,SENDTO,RECV,RECVFROM))/STANDARD= > VAXC > L /DEFINE=(_DECC_V4_SOURCE,_XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED,VMSIO)/WARNING=DISABLE=TOOFE > WACT > UALS/NOOPTIMIZE OS_VMS > E >     u_char          sin6_len;           /* length of this struct */i > ....^d> > %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.2 > at line number 376 in module IN6 of text library! > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDEF.  > TLB;2-  J This is where things go wrong. Perhaps the compiler cannot find an includeG file. Or the u_char type is a predefined basetype in another C dialect.o/ Apparently CC does not know what to do with it. ) The same happens further on with u_short.p  3 This is something the owner of PINE should address..   Hans  8 >     u_char          sin6_family;        /* AF_INET6 */ > ....^e> > %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.2 > at line number 377 in module IN6 of text library! > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDEF.a > TLB;2h >EC >     u_short rhdr_offset;         /* data offset in IPv6 packet */  > ....^w> > %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.2 > at line number 458 in module IN6 of text library! > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDEF.e > TLB;2d >i: >     u_char  rhdr_proto;          /* The protocol type */ > ....^e> > %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.2 > at line number 459 in module IN6 of text library! > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDEF.. > TLB;2r >kJ >     u_char  rhdr_authOK;         /* TRUE if the pkt was authenticated */ > ....^s> > %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.2 > at line number 460 in module IN6 of text library! > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDEF.l > TLB;2t >b& >     typedef u_char * __u_char_ptr32; > ...................^ > %CC-E-NOSEMI, Missing ";".4 > at line number 57 in module RESOLV of text library > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDEo	 > F.TLB;20 >4I >         u_long  options;                /* option flags - see below. */e > ........^ > > %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.5 > at line number 105 in module RESOLV of text libraryr > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLD
 > EF.TLB;2 >aB >         u_short id;                     /* current message id */ > ........^s> > %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.5 > at line number 110 in module RESOLV of text libraryr > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLD
 > EF.TLB;2 >oK >         u_long  pfcode;                 /* RES_PRF_ flags - see below. */t > ........^ > > %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.5 > at line number 113 in module RESOLV of text library  > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLD
 > EF.TLB;2 >aJ > __u_char_ptr32  p_cdnname (const u_char *, const u_char *, int, FILE *); > ................^e > %CC-E-NOSEMI, Missing ";".5 > at line number 289 in module RESOLV of text librarye > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLD
 > EF.TLB;2 >r+ > __char_ptr32    p_option (u_long option);p > ..........................^lH > %CC-E-BADPARSEPARAM, In this parameter list, "u_long" must either be a type > or m > ust be followed by a ",". 5 > at line number 294 in module RESOLV of text library  > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLD
 > EF.TLB;2 >e& > u_int           res_randomid (void); > ................^  > %CC-E-NOSEMI, Missing ";".5 > at line number 302 in module RESOLV of text librarys > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLD
 > EF.TLB;2 >yI > ns_updrec *     res_mkupdrec (int, const char *, u_int, u_int, u_long);s4 > .................................................^4 > %CC-E-PARMTYPLIST, Ill-formed parameter type list.5 > at line number 319 in module RESOLV of text libraryi > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLD
 > EF.TLB;2 > = >          {strncpy(buffer, s, size-1); buffer[size-1]='\0';}  > .........^ > %CC-E-NOSEMI, Missing ";". > at line number 210 in file7 > DKA0:[DATA.FRANCISCO.PINE.PINE-3-91-BETA8.IMAP.ANSI.Cp > -CLIENT]TCP_VMS.C;2T >e
 >        elsec
 > .......^# > %CC-E-BADSTMT, Invalid statement.t > at line number 211 in file7 > DKA0:[DATA.FRANCISCO.PINE.PINE-3-91-BETA8.IMAP.ANSI.Cf > -CLIENT]TCP_VMS.C;2r >y( > __char_ptr32    p_secstodate (u_long); > ................^ C > %CC-W-FUNCIDLIS, In the declaration of "p_secstodate", a function 
 declarator > hassK >  an identifier list but is not part of a function definition.  Extraneousa > parame > ter names are ignored.5 > at line number 295 in module RESOLV of text libraryI > SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLD
 > EF.TLB;2 >r > THANK YOUe >t/ > "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote in message-2 > news:akqc73$1kgkh0$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de...L > > Why don't you read the vmsbuild.com file? If that procedure compiles andI > > links something then the target directory must be known, at least the  name > > of the .EXE file. . > > Check for logical names  ( sho log *PINE*)= > > "Francisco Ortega" <fortega@iblues.cc> schreef in bericht @ > > news:v7Qb9.108090$%v4.5604301@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...	 > > > Hi,eJ > > >      I'm trying to install pine but with no luck. I download it from theiH > > > freeware site at montagar.com and then I transfer the file into my alpha G > > > 255. I'm currently running OpenVms 7.2. After uncompressing it, Ih	 > realize  > > ItL > > > need it C (CC) so I installed it on the alpha. Well, the thing is that	 > > after H > > > reading the aaareadme.txt I have not been able to figure it out. I haveJ > > > create it a production folder but everytime that I run vmsbuild from thefI > > > root of the folder or from [.pine] or [.pico], it does not generate  anyiI > > > *pine*.exe files, furthermore, in the PINE folder, I don't even seei any  > > exetJ > > > file . I see that compiles fine but I can't find them. I look in all my > > DKA0I > > > . Can someone please tell me an easy way to install PINE. Thank you9 > > >. > > >r > > >2 > > >p > >n >. >  >o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 18:31:51 +0100 U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> + Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothlym0 Message-ID: <al07cf$7k0$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  8 > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message ... >  >> >>Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >> >>9 >>>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message ...l >>>t >>>t >>>>. >>You were the one who introduced the dot.bomb. >>discussion into the thread, since you did so2 >>without apparently realising the extent to which0 >>HP suffered and continues to suffer from a bad/ >>debt and asset write down standpoint from thes1 >>dot.com collapse it was only sensibel to informo >>and correct you. >> >> > N > Your own company attributes your current fiscal woes to the dot com bomb andL > the slump in the telco industry.  Anyone interested enough to look at yourM > financial performance can see the unrealistic "bulge" in your revenues thathN > maps nicely onto the rise and fall of the dot com market.  Does the dot bombG > mean that there is no more internet market (as you wanted to imply my N > comments meant) - of course not, but it's pretty clear that Sun profited theD > most from the dot com frenzy, and lost the most from it's decline. >     3 Hang on you forgot the third factor Sun includes ino7 our statements. The downturn in the economy in general.   4 Ironically of course Sun did profit from the dot.com2 revolution and relatively HP did not hence the ill. advised excursion into joint ventures and risk sharing.    M > You've yet to present any types of proof that HP has suffered anything like I > the massive revenue and earnings decline - your revenues went from $5.1nL > billion to $2.8 billion in 3 quarters - what's that a ~40% drop?  What youL > offer as "proof" is that in a down market, Sun has "apparently" taken someL > market share from HP, if you factor out the Compaq merger.  In that sliverN > of the market being talked about, IBM is the king.  Being a marketing droid,J > I'm sure you have access to the IDC reports to know just which sliver is > being talked about.s >     ( Well apart from your own numbers revnnue* 22% down in the division you work for, 422* million dollar loss prior to restructuring charges for the same division.  , And Sun has taken market share from HP, your, numbers and ours confirm this. Your revenues+ are down across the board from PC's to highr+ end servers. The only market where revenuesy0 improved was printing where Sun has no presense.  + At the same time Sun's revenues went up. Ito, does not take an economic genius to work out, that if one vendor is increasing revenue and, one is losing revenues and they both operate, in the same market then the second vendor is! losing market share to the first.2  * What ever you may be Freddy you arn't good at financial analysis.  ' In addition both IDC and Dataquest also3% think that you have lost share to Sune based on your figures and ours.S       > 1 >>If you don't want a discussion then don't starts >>one. >> >> > L > You don't have discussions.  You obfuscate, mislead, and in the end resort) > to stomping your feet and name calling.- >     0 Really, how is quoting your own financial report back at you obfuscation ?e        I > Excuse me?  Let me paraphrase - "Sun's revenue numbers are going in themM > right direction.  We've made a profit this quarter, and we are experiencinge > quarter-to-quarter growth".o >     3 How is this spin its the truth. Unless you considern2 revnues going down to be in the "right direction".      N > Hmmm.  You've had exactly one marginally profitable quarter in the last 4 (aM > mere 1 cent a share), the concensus prediction for this quarter is a 1 cent M > loss.  The quarter-over-quarter growth in revenue is nice until you realizeeJ > that you still have yet to reach the *lowest* revenue quarter for ALL ofK > last year.  You have to go back to Q1 FY 2000 to find a quarter with less2< > revenue following the dive in revenues at the end of FY01. >     , There you go again you accuse me of spin but, then trot out the only financial metric that, makes HP look OK ish which is your operating* profit before restructuring charges. Never2 mind that you were happy to lump our restructuring, charges into our overall loss (ever heard of double standards).  + And yes this coming quarter is always lower2( it is for Sun and HP, cause by an effect* called the holidays (vacations) which mean' that not a lot of business gets done in> August.m  & But this doesn't disguise the relative% possition. Without printing you wouldm" be snookered. More importantly the& two divisions that HP see as the basis) of their profitable business, the one you.& work for and the Services business are$ suffering. Margins have been heavily" squeezed in your services business# and a 422 million dollar loss isn'tt$ great for the one that you work for.  & 2 billion dollars + has been allocated$ for the restructuring so far but not$ one HP/Compaq/Alpha product has been& axed from the Enterprise business. How# much more "merger restructuring" isD going to be done.7  * In services there is a now it is estimated2 in the FT in excess of 150,000 to many consultants' in the market at the moment. If correct - services margins in anything other than breakt, and fix are going to get squeezed even more.       > N > Looking at the yearly summary from IDC, I'll agree that the high-end serversM > were down (revenue, not units), and I'm not really into the whole PC thing.fF > Of course, the aquisition of Compaq will change things - but it willK > probably take a year or so for the numbers to make any sense.  Everyone's - > revenues are down.  We're still profitable.  >     4 Printing is, Services is but is declining everything else is bleeding red.        >>6 >>No but you are in an OpenVMS conference talking down7 >>Sun in attempt to make OpenVMS and your employer lookl	 >>better.w >> >> > M > Not really.  I've not really defended HP as much as simply said - the whole N > market is down, and HP is suffering like everyone else.  You wanted to paintN > a brighter picture for Sun, where I am willing to say that Sun is suffereingM > just as badly as the rest of us - and did indeed take it pretty hard on thet8 > chin very early due to the .com and telco contraction. >     9 Nope remember why I entered this thread, you trying usingt9 one metric to spin HP's relative advantage over Sun. Thate8 was you directly defending HP at the expense of Sun, not  a "I've Not Really defended HP".   Check Deja if you are unsure.O    L > I read this forum mostly to catch any interesting technical questions thatL > either I can answer, or redirect to someone who can.  What exactly is your	 > excuse?e >     . Going back to eBay to provide facts to counter- balance the fiction that some members of thise, group seem to think the readers of the group deserve to be fed.  # Whats your excuse for the fiction ?O     > 4 >>The fact that you keep getting caught out may well4 >>be annoying to you but you know the solution, stop	 >>the BS.  >> >> > K > I've yet to see what I have been "caught out" on.  It would seem that youl5 > think if you say it often enough you must be right.  >     + That probably explains your difficulty. Butt let me remind you.  0 Tricked their Computers to perform well on SPEC." In fact the whole SPEC discussion.. Anything to do with system performance (really not your forte).+ Hardware architectures (apparently not youre forte).  And kind of financial analysis.a  % There is a longer list if you want it   - So far you seem knowlegable and a safe sourcea on USB drivers for OpenVMS       > K > I'm trying to parse that without choking...  This is exactly why I end up K > sucked into these discussions.  I'm just an engineer, and I see a blatent!N > Sun marketing person (you) spew BS about OpenVMS and HP.  So I end up suckedN > into something for which (not being a market droid) I'm not equiped in terms" > of time or inclination to fight. >     . Hang on, you were the one spouting the Itanium/ marketing gospel to all and sundry while corpsee0 of Alpha was still warm. In the process you lost( a lot of friends and made a few enemies.  0 Ahh perhaps thats your problem, you let yourself2 get sucked into discussions that you arn't equiped to fight or win.     Regardsp   Andrew Harrison0   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:02:20 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s+ Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothlyt, Message-ID: <3D743443.C7B464A5@videotron.ca>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:- > At the same time Sun's revenues went up. It . > does not take an economic genius to work out. > that if one vendor is increasing revenue and. > one is losing revenues and they both operate. > in the same market then the second vendor is# > losing market share to the first.s  G TO be fair, one has to look over a longer term. What if Sun has a "time.L delayed" effect and will start to drop revenus next quarter while HP started	 already ?fK (or the opposite, with sun having started to grow revenus again, and HP note yet but will follow shortly).i   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 18:13:01 GMTt% From: Bob Harris <harris@zk3.dec.com>e@ Subject: Re: Humm, I am getting confused between a PDP and a Vax= Message-ID: <harris-5D4961.14062202092002@juggl7.zk3.dec.com>M  . In article <s6yc9.325206$UU1.55927@sccrnsc03>,,  "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote:  B X I heard that the PDP migrated to the Vax, but are they the same? X F X I know hardware wise they aren't, (I believe the PDP needed allot ofK X negative voltages to work), but I heard that you can get a version of Vmsm* X for a PDP 11 that would work with a Vax. X J X Though, considering the most experience I have had with VMS was a schoolN X computer to check my mail and compile c programs is about it:P  I don't know X the hardware aspects.N  I When the VAX 11/780 came out I was just a customer and we pruchased 2 of RE them.  The VAX was _NOT_ a PDP.  The VAX had its own instruction set nI which from 10,000 feet had the same feel as the PDP instruction set, the L= VAX was both different and had a lot more instructions in it.   G The VAX 11/780 and the later VAX 11/750 include an emulation mode that DG ran non-privileged PDP-11 instructions in hardware.  That along with a OI PDP environment software program allowed PDP-11 programs to be run.  I'm RE not sure if the VAX 8600 included the PDP-11 mode or if that is when V0 they decided to go to a total emulation package.  D The VAX 11/780 did use a PDP as it front panel.  This PDP was _NOT_ B involved in the emulation.  It was just in charge of the console, I initial system boot, and remote diagnostics.  It also used 8 inch floppy r( disks.  Those were the good old days :-)  2                                         Bob Harris   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Sep 2002 05:13:31 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>@ Subject: Re: Humm, I am getting confused between a PDP and a Vax- Message-ID: <87wuq4xfgk.fsf@prep.synonet.com>f    Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> writes:  C > AFAIK Vax VMS V0.7 ran on a PDP11-70, which was a real PDP11 witht< > some VAX like elements. But I don't think there ever was aD > commercial VMS version for a PDP11. On the other hand a VAX systemB > could also run RSX11M programs under certain conditions. I never@ > used that possibility because all of our RSX programs used RMSC > (record management services) in Supervisor mode, and that was not; > supported.   M-PLUS on a 750 in fact.  . (typed on a cluster member called ZIGLET. :) )   -- M< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.$@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:11:32 GMTl* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Itanic2 performanceC Message-ID: <U6Tc9.254224$Aw4.10834909@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>O  J Now that McKinley has appeared (sort of), a bit more information about itsI performance is starting to work its way into view.  And some of it raises.K doubts about its ability to conquer the known world in the near (few years)n future.1  L Its floating-point-style performance remains at the top of the heap (1356/naD SPECfp2K base/peak) this month, but since IBM has scheduled a POWER4H speed-bump from 1.3 GHz (1202/1266 SPECfp2K) to 1.5 - 1.6 GHz next monthK that situation will likely change at that time.  And the new 1.25 GHz Alpha[J released last month rates 1327 SPECfp2K_peak (no base figure given), whichJ is certainly closely competitive - leaving aside EV7's likely considerably& higher values coming (one hopes) soon.  J Its SPECint2K 810 base (no peak listed) performance of course never was atH the top of the heap (at Itanic2's introduction the 2.53 GHz P4 held thatE honor with 893/922 base/peak results, and since then a 2.8 GHz P4 has K appeared and the Athlon 2600+ has edged ahead as well with 813/839 values),YL and only beat out POWER4's 804 base figure (839 peak) by a whisker.  And theK new Alpha's 845/928 base/peak results clearly edge it out of the 64-bit top,? spot, again leaving aside EV7 (and Hammer) on the near horizon."  B But some support for the speculation that other compilers may haveC difficulty matching HP-UX Itanic2 SPECint2K_base performance is nowd2 available from one of HP's own performance studies  L http://www.hp.com/products1/itanium/infolibrary/pdfs/coml_perf_whitepaper.pdI f ), which lists a SPECint2K_base figure of 619 for Debian Linux using antL Intel compiler and 680 for Windows Advanced Server Limited Edition using theI Microsoft compiler.  And that's using the fast HP zx-1 chipset:  if otheruH chipsets turn out to be 15% - 20% slower, as HP has claimed, the SPECintG results will decrease even more.  This in no way detracts from the fine'J performance posted by HP-UX, but does suggest that other manufacturers mayI have far less incentive to embrace Itanic, at least until other compilersCF and chipsets start to match HP's:  not only will their Itanic platformH performance (using non-HP compilers and chipsets) be far less impressiveL compared with other processor architectures they have at their disposal, butK it will also be at a disadvantage competing with HP's own Itanic platforms.fI All of which may tend to leave Itanic looking more like an HP-proprietary @ platform than the industry-standard behemoth that Intel, HP, andF (previously) Compaq had been counting on to roll over everything else.  H HP also likes to brag about Itanic2's industry-leading 4-processor TPC-CI performance and price/performance (and while TPC-C's repute has fallen of4J late due to use of the 'cluster cheat', that particular objection does notD apply to platform comparisons in this range).  Its price/performanceL leadership lasted for less than 2 weeks after introduction, when IBM fieldedI a lower-cost Pentium-based 4-processor system, but more to the point evenhF that brief leadership was obtained only after HP applied a 31+% 'largeI configuration discount' to the bundle:  without it, the price/performanceuH figure works out to only about 20% better than the new 4-processor AlphaI system tested (which had no similar discount applied - funny about that).V  G As for the performance itself, it remains at the top of the 4-processor)L group by a healthy margin.  But you've got to wonder whether that would haveL remained true had the Alpha system not been constrained to 32 GB memory (theI ES45 limit) and 10Krpm disks (the Itanic2's 48 GB of memory cost in total J only about 70% of what the Alpha's 32 GB cost - something Alpha users haveD regrettably become used to from cHumPaq - and it used 15Krpm disks).  H And then there SPECweb99_SSL, where McKinley turned in even more stellarE numbers.  While you'd expect a benchmark containing encryption to letlE Itanic2 shine (at least if encryption played an important part in the E overall results), there are some questions that pop up there as well.0  K While I don't know how important disk performance is to this benchmark, thepK results (with a single exception) suggest that it may dominate it.  The twolJ top performers in the 4-processor class (Itanic2 and PA-RISC) use the mostG (15) and fastest (15Krpm) disks, while the relatively poorly-performing>J Alpha and Sun entries use fewer (9) and slower (10Krpm for Sun, and AFAICTK 7200 rpm for Alpha) disks (the test results give only a part number for theoK Alpha disks, and the only Google reference I could find that seemed to shediH any light on their speed was a Tru64 cluster upgrade comparison documentL where the same part was used and the only 9 GB disks mentioned were 7200 rpm ones).  L Why Compaq would have used an 833 MHz DS40 and 7200 rpm disks in a benchmarkL run in March of this year (rather than a 1 GHz DS45 and 15Krpm disks) is yetL another of those corporate mysteries surrounding the treatment of Alpha thatI one will just have to draw one's own conclusions about, leaving aside therG question of whether more disks would also have helped.  The latter is a K question to be asked about the Sun and IBM entries as well, but, as I said,fL the results, except for one, correlate very well with the performance of theJ disk subsystems used - and the fact that the 900 MHz USIII system beat outE the 833 MHz Alpha system is also very difficult to explain if the Sun 4 system's presumably faster disks were not important.  I That one exception was an IBM Xeon platform that did extremely well usingdI only 7, though 15Krpm, disks.  I'm guessing that a combination of the IBM F Summit chipset, use of Linux's ext2fs file system (which is faster butK riskier than the file systems used for the Alpha and POWER4 configurations; K note that the Itanic2 and PA-RISC boxes used HP's HFS, which may be similarsF in that respect - but I failed to find much information about it), andJ running the benchmark right on the hairy edge (it was the only system thatE failed to achieve 100% conformance in any of the three test runs) mayr account for this.u  B At any rate, food for thought.  Itanic2 does have very respectableK performance, but it's clearly no faster than the new Alpha that released at H the same time - even though that 'new' Alpha is running 4+ year old coreK technology and has far less on-chip cache.  EV7 will eclipse Itanic if it'soI allowed to (and EV8 would have demolished it), POWER4 looks fully able to I compete with it on performance, and both P4 and Hammer will have superiorwL absolute performance plus price/performance characteristics that make ItanicC look downright sick.  PA-RISC and UltraSPARC will trail somewhat ineH per-processor performance, but with dual-core chips coming for both next' year should still be quite competitive.n  H You won't hear this from HP marketing:  it's their job to emphasize whatK appear to be the strong points of Itanic and brush over any weaknesses, andsK so far they're doing it well.  The problem is that you may well not hear it K from supposedly unbiased sources either:  the art of analysis seems to have D been lost somewhere in the millennium change, and what's left is theJ 'conventional wisdom' that the rag-writers and 'analysts' learn by reading/ each other's hot air and vendor press releases.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:07:51 -0400g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>p  Subject: Re: Itanic2 performance, Message-ID: <3D74358E.451D3A30@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:K > Microsoft compiler.  And that's using the fast HP zx-1 chipset:  if othertJ > chipsets turn out to be 15% - 20% slower, as HP has claimed, the SPECint# > results will decrease even more.    M Could this have implications of the ability of VMS to run on non HP platformsaN ? In other words, will all HP OS products be built to rely on the existence of that zx-1 chipset and features   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 04:42:49 GMT0* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Itanic2 performanceC Message-ID: <d5Xc9.259750$Aw4.11035963@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D74358E.451D3A30@videotron.ca... > Bill Todd wrote:G > > Microsoft compiler.  And that's using the fast HP zx-1 chipset:  if  otherrL > > chipsets turn out to be 15% - 20% slower, as HP has claimed, the SPECint$ > > results will decrease even more. > E > Could this have implications of the ability of VMS to run on non HPt	 platformsuC > ? In other words, will all HP OS products be built to rely on thei existence of  > that zx-1 chipset and features  J This question has been answered many times by Fred.  If you don't trust HPH not to override the intentions of the VMS team in this area (no, I don'tI either - but that just means it could go either way) you'll probably justs have to wait and see.l  K A more interesting question is whether VMS will be able to benefit from the L HP-UX compiler technology or (not having its own compilers any more) will beK stuck using Intel compiler technology.  Though even if HP doesn't share itsuH compiler technology with Intel the former DEC compiler people can likelyE improve Intel's by the time VMS on Itanic is ready to start shipping.    - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2002 22:20 CDT' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)m2 Subject: Re: Maybe it's SAS v8.2 for alpha VMS bug, Message-ID: <2SEP200222200415@gerg.tamu.edu>  - "SAS mailServer" <wayne.li@sas.com> writes...y }Hi,all: } M }I have run a simple PROC step and token about 12 mins , see LOG as following  }: } = }  1? proc contents data=sashelp._all_ out=test noprint; run;EE }NOTE: The data set WORK.TEST has 2002 observations and 40 variables.n }NOTE: PROCEDURE CONTENTS used:n( }      real time           11.10 seconds' }      user cpu time       1.40 secondsn }      Buffered IO :       3104t }      Direct IO   :       892 }      Page Faults :       3789  }  } C }  2? proc contents data=data._all_  out=test memtype=data noprint;h
 }  3? run;E }NOTE: The data set WORK.TEST has 1985 observations and 40 variables.t }NOTE: PROCEDURE CONTENTS used:h# }      real time           12:22.06u' }      user cpu time       5.87 secondsu }      Buffered IO :       2113  }      Direct IO   :       833! }      Page Faults :       197867o }  }More detail , see us5731482.e }  }Thank you for your help.n }  }  }  }  }--n }Wayne Li weimin }Technical Support Manager# }SAS Institute (Shanghai) Co., Ltd.n  	 My guess:t  ? Your process's working set is too small to do this efficiently.O  < You can tell by comparing the page fault information for the= two operations. The first data set gives about 1.5 pagefaultsn; per observation. The second gives almost 100 pagefaults pera= observation. Odds are that this is due to your process havingt5 insufficient physical memory for efficient operation.   ? You might also compare what the output tells you about the dataoA sets. As they are for two different data sets, in spite of having @ the same number of variables and slightly fewer observations, it= is possible that the second one needs a lot more memory to be : efficient - perhaps the variables are much larger (such asA unnecessarily huge character variables, for example it could haveyA several that are defined as being dozens, or hundreds or more, oflA characters longer than is actually needed; in such a case you can 0 get much better results by making them smaller).  C So if it is possible you should increase your account's working setaC extent (and possibly the working set quota, too). You may need moresE memory in the system to make this practical. You may need to increase 4 the WSMAX system parameter if you are at that limit.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 18:41:19 +0100 U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> B Subject: Re: netscape/modzilla/HP/open-source: system requirements0 Message-ID: <al07u8$7oc$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Arne Vajhj wrote:  * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: >  >> Larry Kilgallen wrote:i >>G >>> Such as most web-borne malware.   Java and JavaScript give too muchs0 >>> control over my computer to unknown persons. >> >  > $ >> Java and Javascript should not be >> placed in the same category.f >  >  >  > True.a > 8 > But I think he do - he just mentioned two things, that > is not making them the same. >     ) Sure I just wanted to establish that theya( are two technologies that share a common name but nothing else.      ( > True. If the JVM implementation is OK. > 1 > And please remember that Microsoft JVM is stilln > at 1.1.4 (from 1997) ! >     & But you don't have to use this. I have% Windows Xp at home and have 1.3.xx on   it I could load 1.4 if I wanted.   Regardse Andrew Harrisona   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 20:44:14 +0200b@ From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk>B Subject: Re: netscape/modzilla/HP/open-source: system requirements+ Message-ID: <3D73B17E.8040808@mail.tele.dk>i  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:  2 >> And please remember that Microsoft JVM is still >> at 1.1.4 (from 1997) !     ( > But you don't have to use this. I have' > Windows Xp at home and have 1.3.xx onR" > it I could load 1.4 if I wanted.    
 I use 1.4.   And ?g  . How many of the 100-200 million MSIE users out1 there do you think that have upgraded their JVM ?c  / For that matter how many of them do know what a  JVM is ?   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 07:05:33 +0200i: From: Karl Rohwedder <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de>' Subject: Re: Remote Site Cluster Memberu/ Message-ID: <al1g11$hbv2@doiweb4.volkswagen.de>o   Steve Cage wrote:  > OpenVMS V7.2-1 > D > We currently have two Compaq DS20E's which are clustered utilizingF > twin shared SCSI buses and a Quorum disk. Expected Votes is set to 3C > with each node contributing 1 vote. The system disk is shared andt+ > shadowed utilizing the shared SCSI buses.w > E > This weekend we are going to add another DS20E to the cluster whicheD > will have its disk drives (same capacity)  located in its internalC > drive cage. This machine will be located at our Disaster RecoverydB > site, which is approx 1 mile away and connected via a 100MB Full, > Duplex Ethernet connection (Colt Lanlink). > G > 	For the test we will use cluster_config.com to create a new root one= > the shared system disk and add the new node to the cluster. 5 > 	Boot the new node into the cluster over Ethernet.lF > 	Add a disk on the new DS20E to the System Disk Shadow Set. Then weA > should be able to boot the new machine of the local hard drive.f2 > 	Remove the Quorum disk with cluster_config.com/ > 	Shadow remaining data disks to remote site.h > H > The whole point of adding the third member is to keep a real time copyH > of data on a running system at a remote site in case disaster strikes.G > My main question is how could we adjust expected_votes at remote site E > if we lost main site and had to run on a single node (assuming linkrG > was shutdown to avoid partitioning the cluster). I have tried this in07 > the past and the single node just dies when you boot.e > ; > Any other help you could offer would also be appreciated.i  J The new DS20E at the remote site must have its own system disk. It can NOT; form a system disk shadowset via ethernet, because it boots D from a physical local disk, forms the system disk shadowset and thenK detects a shadow inconsistency with the system disk shadow set on the othero nodes and bugchecks.   --    - mit freundlichen Gruessen | with best regardsl   Karl Rohwedder                C iT-Ingenieurteam     | Ellernbruch 11       | D-38112 Braunschweig KA Telefon: 0531/515521 | Telefax: 0531/515531 | Mobil: 0172/5434843aH  E-Mail: rohwedder(at)decus.decus.de        | iT-IngTeam(at)t-online.de .          karl.rohwedder(at)it-ingenieurteam.de DATEX-P: 4505018005::ROHWEDDER   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:53:08 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> B Subject: Re: Secret New Products (was: Is the HP/Compaq merger...)+ Message-ID: <3D74321C.F6B82FB@videotron.ca>    Alan Greig wrote:nG > Lawyers for DEC and the vacuum cleaner manufacturer agreed long, longoH > ago that they were happy as long as DEC never made vacuum cleaners and > VAX never made computers.   M I saw my first real VAX back in 1997 while in Bega , NSW Australia in a youthCK hostel. And yes, it was the same orange as all the manuals I have had in myf bookshelves since 1989....  N (You see, I don't have a real VAX, I have a MicroVAXes...) So the one I saw in9 Australia was a real VAX. And yes, it sucked very well...7   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:03:23 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>iJ Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?, Message-ID: <3D742676.8B12516C@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:nM > Oh, just a few years after I wrote my book about it. HP *does* appear to be # > making some improvements, though.d  H And Bob GQ Palmer made dramatic improvements when he stoped advertisingtM "migrate from VMS to Unix". But That didn't  mean he became "pro VMS" and didh things to grow VMS.   L Compared to Compaq and June 25, even HP's total avoidance of mentioniong VMSH seesm like an improvement, but that still isn't enough to give customers+ confidence in the vendor's true intentions.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:16:44 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>oJ Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?, Message-ID: <3D742997.75790275@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:K > Since killing Alpha cHumPaq has done nothing to attempt to compensate forrM > the decidedly chilling effect that being available only on a declared-dyings
 > platform  L Actually, we don.'t really know that. Rememher that Compaq admitted visitingK its most important customers for a one-to-one meeting on June 25. The way IbG see it, for those customers important enough to matter, Compaq may haveeM offerered very sweet deals that forced those customers to stay quiet, or signsJ some of those pre-prepared "support" statements that Compaq used to try to3 portray its Alpha murder decision as a popular one.t  K Also remember that it is very possible that Compaq deciced that if the vasttJ majority of VMS profits were generated by a minority of customers, that itA shoudl focus on that minority and just forget about the majority.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:27:13 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>eJ Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?, Message-ID: <3D742C0B.6FF704BA@videotron.ca>  ! mustang@ucc.asn.au.invalid wrote:aK > The whining won't stop until HP extract their digits and start using themlA > to promote, improve and expand VMS to new markets and new userse  M In the days when Digital's main product was VMS, the only complaints were theeN expensive prices and lack of marketing. No fear about the bright future of the. second most popular OS in the world back then.  M But since then, the owner of VMS has sent clear signals that VMS is no longerrB its prime product (at best) or that it wanted to kill off this old! legacy/proprietary OS (at worse).h   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 23:46:26 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>sJ Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?, Message-ID: <3D74308A.4A1DB2A3@videotron.ca>   re: Digital and the media.  K There was a time when Charlie Matco benefited Digital. For instance, it wasoN because of an article by Matco that I found out about the "DECprint postscriptH to sixel printing" utility which Digital never really marketed. And thatI resulted in an actual sale to Digital. (Yes, I have many bona fide "paid"u" licenses, not just hobbyist ones).  L However, I feel that at one point, a reporter starts to rely too much on hisJ inside contacts and when the company no longer has any interesting news toH leak (such as new utilities etc), then the reporter's hands may be tied:H nothing to report from the company, and you can't start to criticise theF company too much otherwise your are ensured your contacts will dry up.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2002 21:12 CDT' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)n+ Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this weekl, Message-ID: <2SEP200221121352@gerg.tamu.edu>  2 spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes...b }Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message news:<87it1sxhnj.fsf@prep.synonet.com>... }> e }s? }And now, in reference to the "Unix boy" request about checkinga }everything:  G I'm the one who pointed out this flaw and suggested that checking coulduG be a good plan. If you think I'm a "Unix boy" then you clearly have notr5 been paying attention, and you just might be a moron.s  C }If you want to check if the directory is corrupted, that's anothere= }story. But how much checking do you need to do? How often dooD }directories get corrupted? I've only seen it happen once myself andG }I've been using VMS since 1985. And why not check if the disk is stillI( }mounted? Or if the lights are still on?  D It isn't really checking to see if the directory is corrupted. It is% checking to see if it is a directory.h   $ create foo.dir;1 foo  ^Z  7 This file is not now, nor has it ever been a directory.p   It is also not corrupted.e  A It is a perfectly legal file. It just isn't a directory. The file A attributes provied the information that indicate that it is not aKE directory. Yet F$PARSE insists on treating it as a directory (as willtD lots of other things) even though RMS "knows" perfectly well that it@ is not one since the "this is a directory" attribute is not set.  A I'm also surprised that you would suggest that checking things isiB Unix-like behavior and not VMS-like behavior. In my experience youG have it exactly backwards. Standard VMS behavior is to check everythingyE that it is practical to check (and maybe some things that aren't verysG prcatical) whereas standard Unix behavior is to check only those thingsc3 that the programmer felt like checking at the time.l  % }And now, back to our current poster:e }  }> Being fixed.t }  }??? What's broken?e }Alan E. Feldman  I Go back and read the thread again and you might be able to figure it out.p  I Hint: treating a file that is not now, and never has been, a directory askI a directory in spite of the fact that the "this is a directory" attributel0 is not set, and never was, is not good behavior.   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2002 22:31 CDT' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)e# Subject: Re: Stupid newbie questionl, Message-ID: <2SEP200222311552@gerg.tamu.edu>  y In article <01KM0YPE7NOC9QUS7H@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes...r+ }> > >> $ unzip :== $dev:[dir]unzip.vax_exee }> >: }> > For example unzip.vax_exe is in user$dia1:[utils], so. }> > $ unzip:== user$dia1:[utils]unzip.vax_exe }> >, }> > Not unzip:== "run user$dia1:blablabla"? }> n/ }> Note that the $ (as in $dev:) *IS* required.t }   }A lot of confusion here, folks! } 9 }A foreign command (not a "foreign symbol") is defined asr } , }$  <command-name> == "$<device><dir><file>" } 
 }For example,- } $ }$  ZIP == "$DISK$SOFT:[ZIP]ZIP.EXE" } - }would define ZIP as a foreign command.  Notet }  }   o  no "RUN": } G }   o  the path name has to have a $ in front WHICH IS NOT PART OF THE d }      PATH NAME  A For purposes of clarity, I like to put a space between that first @ "$" and the device name. It works fine and it points out that it is a separate element.  $ $  ZIP == "$ DISK$SOFT:[ZIP]ZIP.EXE"   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 20:49:50 GMTi1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e Subject: Re: VMS for i86' Message-ID: <3D73D435.9717E47D@fsi.net>-   Stuart Johnson wrote:  > I > David, other readers - I am not trying to "get your blood boiling", butaL > don't think that a partially working shell or emulation of DCL will give a. > new user much of the real "feel" of OpenVMS,  @ Neither do I, nor do I advocate such. Stay with it, work out thrG problems and put a product out there with at least a respectable degree1 of fidelity to the original.    > especially when for about $100M > US (with a little luck and care) one can have their own small VAX or Alpha.   E Nota bene, however, that is *STRICTLY* for non-commercial situations,tD and not at all in keeping with the goals I had in mind when I put up. "The Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page".  C > Access to real OpenVMS, with all of the HELP files, etc. & onlineoA > documentation would be, at least in my opinion, a better start.s  G Agreed, whole-heartedly. Now, how do we communicate that, in a languageuG that they understand, to those in positions which can make this happen?    > Also,VL > a VAX emulator running real OpenVMS would be better than a shell emulating > DCL;  E Agreed. ...which is why I try to mention QIO, ODS, RMS and DCL all inu the same reference frame.    > you would beB > booting the actual OpenVMS media and running the real (software) > environment. [snip]  F I guess what would go much further is software sitting between VMS andF the underlying processor that not only resolves the processor and moboH issues, but eliminates the need for a host o.s. between the emulator andE VMS: sort of a "Linux-lite" plus Charon-VAX, if you will. (Bearing inmH mind, of course, that "Linux" refers only to the kernel, and not the GnuH software which provides the user-interface functionality such as shells, command programs, etc.)r  C Charon-VAX is wonderful, as far as it goes, but runs counter to thelF principle of affordability: cost rises from (hardware + VMS + l.p.) toH (hardware + host o.s. + Charon-VAX + VMS + l.p.), and estimated increaseD of between 50% and 80%. That takes the price in the wrong direction.   --   David J. Dachterac dba DJE Systems. http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.485 ************************