1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 04 Sep 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 488       Contents: Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article After Memory Upgrade RE: After Memory Upgrade. Alpha system model # changing after an upgrade2 Re: Alpha system model # changing after an upgrade0 Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?0 RE: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?0 Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?0 Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?0 Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?0 Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?	 Re: am/pm 	 Re: am/pm 	 Re: am/pm 	 Re: am/pm 	 Re: am/pm 	 Re: am/pm 	 Re: am/pm 	 Re: am/pm 	 Re: am/pm ? Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?) 3 Re: anyone have a source for MMJ cables in the UK ?  Re: Anyone need a RX50? % Re: Copy of OpenVMS hobbyist CD in UK % Re: Copy of OpenVMS hobbyist CD in UK  Re: DEC-adence( Re: DECC RTL Migration - Advice Required Re: DECW$CALENDAR file format. Re: Escape Sequences Re: Escape Sequences* File corruption (VMS 7.2-2) - ideas sought' Re: Fortune Magazine and a post-VMS rap ' Re: Fortune Magazine and a post-VMS rap  Re: Help installing Pine5 Heterogenous Clusters and Shadowsets for system disks 9 Re: Heterogenous Clusters and Shadowsets for system disks / How to change an IP printer queue configuration 3 Re: How to change an IP printer queue configuration 3 Re: How to change an IP printer queue configuration 3 Re: How to change an IP printer queue configuration 3 Re: How to change an IP printer queue configuration . Re: HP earnings - how did the VMS business do?" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly" Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly7 Re: Humm, I am getting confused between a PDP and a Vax ' IBM did it, Sun did it, why Compaq not? + Re: IBM did it, Sun did it, why Compaq not? + Re: IBM did it, Sun did it, why Compaq not? + RE: IBM did it, Sun did it, why Compaq not? + Re: IBM did it, Sun did it, why Compaq not?  Re: Itanic2 performance  Re: Itanic2 performance  Re: Itanic2 performance  Re: Itanic2 performance  Re: Itanic2 performance  Re: Itanic2 performance  Re: Itanic2 performance  Re: Itanic2 performance  Re: Itanic2 performance  Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX  Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX  Looking for a VMS favour.... Re: MATCHC Instruction Mozilla 1.1 burner of CPU  Re: Mozilla 1.1 burner of CPU  Re: Mozilla 1.1 burner of CPU 9 Re: netscape/modzilla/HP/open-source: system requirements   Re: Networking with Alpha Server" Re: OpenOffice ODBC and Oracle Rdb OpenVMS and Hobbyist CDROM Kit Re: OpenVMS documentation  OT: Active Directory Re: OT: Active Directory Re: OT: Active Directory Re: OT: Active Directory OT: UK Universities (CONT...)  Please Sum it up.  Re: Please Sum it up.  Re: Please Sum it up.  Re: Please Sum it up.  Re: Please Sum it up.  Re: Please Sum it up.  Re: Please Sum it up.  Re: Please Sum it up.  Re: Please Sum it up.  PLUG: txt2pdf 6.0  Re: problems with PIPE Re: problems with PIPE Re: problems with PIPE Re: Remote Site Cluster Member9 Re: Secret New Products (was: Is the HP/Compaq merger...) A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? " Re: silliest thing heard this week" Re: silliest thing heard this week8 Re: Size of I/O count fields in SHOW PROC and SHOW SYS ? Storageworks paritioned drives" Re: Storageworks paritioned drives" Re: Storageworks paritioned drives" Re: Storageworks paritioned drives! Re: TCPIP services: SLIP question ! Re: TCPIP services: SLIP question ! Re: TCPIP services: SLIP question ! Re: TCPIP services: SLIP question ! Re: TCPIP services: SLIP question ! Re: TCPIP services: SLIP question  TCPTRACE- the number of caracters of the name of a file 1 Re: the number of caracters of the name of a file 1 Re: the number of caracters of the name of a file 1 Re: the number of caracters of the name of a file ! VAX / Network / Hardware question % Re: VAX / Network / Hardware question % Re: VAX / Network / Hardware question % Re: VAX / Network / Hardware question  VDdriver_64 synch bug 1 VMS and HP (Was Re: Some interesting Linux Press)  Re: VMS for i86  VMS Printing To CA/Dispatch  Re: VMS Printing To CA/Dispatch  Re: VMS Printing To CA/Dispatch   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 06:09:34 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: "inview" Article , Message-ID: <3D748A57.4D4F9774@videotron.ca>   Carl Perkins wrote: I > You might say something like, "But you use it without the same hardware J > redundancy to go with it, rendering it comparatively useless. VMS avoids6 > this problem by using a better clustering paradigm."   Thanks. good point.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:00:14 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>  Subject: Re: "inview" Article ' Message-ID: <3D74EA9E.6AF6B0BE@aaa.com>    About "clusters"...   8 When the shutdown of MPE was on the news, someone sad it3 also had "Clusering". I checked it in the MPE docs, = and it was/is a master/slave solution with manual switch-over 6 of disks to the slave system even if the master system7 was long gone.  And I think two systems was the maximum ' config. So "clusters" != "clusters" :-)   ; Another question, have you found any feature *lacking* from  VMS clusters ?   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    Keith Parris wrote:  >  > H > I've been studying non-VMS cluster implementations quite a bit lately,B > and the more I do, the more impressed I am with what VMS can do. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:58:19 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: "inview" Article , Message-ID: <3D74F839.3C030C26@videotron.ca>   Keith Parris wrote: B > TruCluster technology is head-and-shoulders above the other UnixC > cluster implementations.  HP-UX is lucky to be the beneficiary of G > those improvements.  But even TruCluster has a ways to go to catch up @ > with VMS, especially in maturity and stability.  And VMS isn't > standing still, either.   M Would it be fair to think that the TruCluster is now frozen in time, that not M 100% of it will make it to HP-UX and that the resulting HP-UX will be a large  subset of TruCluster ?  I This would mean that VMS would have a significant chance to widen the gap E between itself and Unix clustering. Of course, VMS is also stuck in a K migration during the same period, but hopefully that migration will slow it 2 down less than what HP-UX will have to go through.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 18:38:20 +0100 U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>  Subject: Re: "inview" Article 0 Message-ID: <al2s4m$4ev$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:    > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > B >>One might argue that NSK is the gold standard for shared nothingC >>clusters while OpenVMS is the gold standard for shared everything  >>clusters.  >> > K > It is often said here that VMS' clustering is superior is part due to the  > shared everything paradigm.  > 3 > But how does one counter a Unix argument such as: K > "Our version of clustering uses the same paradigm as the best known fault > > tolerant system: Tandem, and VMS doesn't use that paradigm". >     2 It all depends what you want to do with a cluster.  / If you want to provide a resiliant scalable web 1 server infrastructure then neither NSK or OpenVMS 0 are the "Gold Standard" for this kind of service2 because the facilites they offer are not required.   Ditto an apps server cluster.   1 If you want a shared nothing compute cluster then 6 you will also find that there are different contenders1 for the "Gold Standard" none of which require NSK 0 or OpenVMS. If you want to verify this then look/ no further than the top500 list where there are . laods of shared nothing clusters none of which" are running either NSK or OpenVMS.  2 The problem is that clusters cover everything from0 Compute, to Web to Apps to file and DBMS. No one1 cluster technology is the "Gold Standard" because 0 one one technology is suitable for all the tasks that you may need to run.   2 You could go as far as to say the one applications. cluster technology "Gold Standard" is anothers chocolate teapot.   - I would also disagree with the idea that UNIX / clusters use the same "paradigm" as NSK, infact   most UNIX clusters are much more# analogous to VMS clusters than NSK.   ' Just to blur the boundaries some UNIX's , like Solaris run on FT lock step hardware as did VMS with the ftVAX.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:53:22 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: "inview" Article 0 Message-ID: <3D74F590.26AEDEC8@blueyonder.co.uk>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Keith Parris wrote: D > > TruCluster technology is head-and-shoulders above the other UnixE > > cluster implementations.  HP-UX is lucky to be the beneficiary of I > > those improvements.  But even TruCluster has a ways to go to catch up B > > with VMS, especially in maturity and stability.  And VMS isn't > > standing still, either.  > O > Would it be fair to think that the TruCluster is now frozen in time, that not O > 100% of it will make it to HP-UX and that the resulting HP-UX will be a large  > subset of TruCluster ?   Not according to this:  7 ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/partners/oracle/DH%20Brown.pdf   A Most of the TruCluster functionality is being grafted onto Oracle 1 so it will work on any Oracle supported platform.    At least, thats how I read it.   regards,   > K > This would mean that VMS would have a significant chance to widen the gap G > between itself and Unix clustering. Of course, VMS is also stuck in a M > migration during the same period, but hopefully that migration will slow it 4 > down less than what HP-UX will have to go through.  R Does it matter unless HP start saying loud and clear they have a better clustering$ solution than any available on Unix?   --   tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk    H * PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 20:04:08 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: "inview" Article A Message-ID: <YA8d9.141102$On.5514767@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0209030757.5bfe9ec2@posting.google.com... 7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message ? news:<hYWc9.374557$m91.14971455@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>... K > > VMS and Unix are not fault-tolerant in the same way NSK is in the sense  ofJ > > guaranteeing *correct* continuing operation in the presence of a faultE > > (because they don't have the hardware-level lock-step consistency  checking > > that NSK has)  > H > Have you forgotten the ftVAX?  VMS can run on fault-tolerant hardware.@ >  What would prevent VMS from running on the same Itanium-based) > hardware platform as NSK in the future?   L No, I haven't forgotten ftVAX, but the discussion seemed to be about presentJ products rather than defunct or hypothetical future ones (and Unix systemsG can offer the same hypothetical future fault-tolerant products that VMS L can - except for Sun, which, as Andrew just noted, already does offer such a product today).    > 5 > > While there are elements of the VMS approach that I > > are a bit more flexible and certainly more mature, they don't rise to  the L > > level of dramatic differentiation any more and are rapidly ceasing to be% > > significant at all for most uses.  > G > I think you're giving the mainstream Unix cluster implementations far C > too much benefit of the doubt, Bill.  Or were you thinking mostly  > about TruClusters?  L No, though TruClusters are certainly an ideal example of my point.  But IBM,L Sun, and Veritas (on multiple platforms, including IIRC HP-UX) offer variousK kinds of clustering that are eminently comparable to VMS's in function, and J GPFS on AIX offers clustered storage facilities very much like Tru64's new ones.    > H > I've been studying non-VMS cluster implementations quite a bit lately,B > and the more I do, the more impressed I am with what VMS can do.  K What VMS can do is impressive far more in terms of its elegance than in its  functional differences.    > G > I was looking at disaster-tolerant clusters under HP-UX, for example. H > (See http://docs.hp.com/hpux/ha/).  Each system can only have one voteF > (not zero, not 2, just 1).  This means the number of nodes (not justF > votes) at each site needs to be equal.  And, surprisingly, if a nodeH > fails at one of the two sites, you have to shoot a perfectly-good node2 > at the opposite site to keep the votes balanced.  J Disaster-tolerance remains an area where VMS has a noticeable lead (mostlyJ in the matter of distance, as was discussed recently:  once you're dealingL with distances over which the 'normal' Unix clustering facilities work, muchD of this lead disappears).  Now quantify what percentage of the total8 clustering market requires wide-area disaster tolerance.   > F > Another example: Many of the non-VMS cluster implementations use EMCF > SRDF or Hitachi (aka HP SureStore E Disk Array) Continuous Access XPE > to do controller-based mirroring between sites.  If you want to run B > Oracle Parallel Server, you can only run that on a subset of theF > cluster nodes (the nodes at one site), since you can only access the< > data through the controller which is "primary" for a givenF > 'mirrorset'.  In a VMS cluster, you can run OPS on all the nodes, at > both sites, at once.  I You're simply repeating your wide-area disaster-tolerance argument again. J And you'll note that precisely the same objection exists when VMS uses DRM@ storage-level remote replication:  it's a characteristic of that
 architecture.    > B > TruCluster technology is head-and-shoulders above the other Unix > cluster implementations.  F Actually, it's not:  take a closer look at GPFS on AIX.  While I won'tK assert that Tru64 has no advantages at all (I don't know either system well F enough to do that), their architectures are quite similar, and while IK haven't checked recently enough to be certain I seem to remember that Sun's < V3 cluster architecture has similar characteristics as well.  I I do agree that at least in some areas those implementations are ahead of B HP-UX and (last I knew, anyway) Veritas, though once again more inK flexibility than in the raw functionality that a great many people deploy a  cluster to achieve.   )   HP-UX is lucky to be the beneficiary of G > those improvements.  But even TruCluster has a ways to go to catch up @ > with VMS, especially in maturity and stability.  And VMS isn't > standing still, either.   F I've granted VMS advantages in maturity right along.  But while VMS isE unquestionably stable, and while greater maturity *can* imply greater H stability, you'd have to present quantitative data to prove the relativeK instability of Unix cluster implementations to back up your suggestion that ! it's some kind of actual problem.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 20:20:40 GMT4* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: "inview" ArticleeC Message-ID: <sQ8d9.390732$m91.15408964@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>i  2 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660997@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. .. JF,t  5 >>> But how does one counter a Unix argument such as:vC "Our version of clustering uses the same paradigm as the best knowneE fault tolerant system: Tandem, and VMS doesn't use that paradigm".<<<   H As stated before, there are some advantages to a shared nothing cluster.F There are no DLM concerns, but with recent HW and OS enhancements, one! could also argue these are minor.0   *** F Agreed.  I've never subscribed to the arguments of those who knock DLML performance and scalability, save possibly in very-large-scale Beowulf-style
 environments.  ***   6 However, you also have to deal with other issues like:  C 1. Every system is allocated to "serve" specific workloads to other E servers - not unlike MSCP serving in OpenVMS clustering. Adding a new A system typically requires re-partitioning the database workload -  typically results in outages.C  H 2. One can not load balance the same workload across multiple servers inF multiple sites as shared nothing approaches typically assume some formF of "replication" between sites which means a master-slave (one writer,D many readers) arrangement i.e. by design, one system handles all theH load associated with specific workload components. If Server A at Site AG requires some data that Server B at Site B is specifically allocated tonG handle, then Server A in Site A must access Server B in Site B for thatt? information. Server A can not access that information directly.o   ***aK Those two points are pretty much variations of the single point that with a J shared-nothing approach access to any given datum is funneled through some- specific server, which I pointed out earlier.n  H But Tru64, GPFS on AIX, and IIRC Sun's new V3 cluster implementation allG support concurrent direct shared access to storage devices (just as VMSoJ does) for user data, and only require that metadata management be funneledK through some specific server (which can fail over to another if necessary).iL So for that subset of installations that actually run into difficulties withK a shared-nothing approach, at least some Unixes provide a likely acceptablen alternative.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:28:24 +0100cU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>t Subject: Re: "inview" Article 0 Message-ID: <al4jq3$lcl$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:   > In article <al2s4m$4ev$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes: > 4 >>It all depends what you want to do with a cluster. >>1 >>If you want to provide a resiliant scalable web 3 >>server infrastructure then neither NSK or OpenVMS 2 >>are the "Gold Standard" for this kind of service4 >>because the facilites they offer are not required. >> > < >    And the facilities they provide hurt how?  In fact the 9 >    facilitites VMS provides can be used to make a more a@ >    reliable web server than most other clusters can provide.  < >    If your bussiness is ebussiness, your . in .com better  >    be VMS. >     . You don't need the overhead, performance isn't0 great, there isn't a huge software portfolio and- there is no crypto accelerator support. Thatss the OS delt with.r  2 Hardware is expensive, there are no rack optimised1 1 or 2U systems typically used in web serving and 
 its also hot.e   Do you want any other reasons ?n     >  >>Ditto an apps server cluster.  >>3 >>If you want a shared nothing compute cluster thene8 >>you will also find that there are different contenders3 >>for the "Gold Standard" none of which require NSKo2 >>or OpenVMS. If you want to verify this then look1 >>no further than the top500 list where there areh0 >>laods of shared nothing clusters none of which$ >>are running either NSK or OpenVMS. >> > = >    Did you ever try to compute in a shared nothing cluster?n< >    Sure limits what you can compute.  Witness the original6 >    reason DEC came up with a VAXcluster:  to provide6 >    a computing environment with more horsepower than& >    any one VAX they had at the time. >     1 But thats exacly what is being done by almost allg2 the top500 clusters, shared nothing compute. Their2 criteria is access to cheap cycles coupled with an1 efficient SW and hardware infrastructure for MPP.L     > 4 >>The problem is that clusters cover everything from2 >>Compute, to Web to Apps to file and DBMS. No one3 >>cluster technology is the "Gold Standard" becauset2 >>one one technology is suitable for all the tasks >>that you may need to run.e >> > 8 >    Guess again.  VMS is suitable for all of the above.2 >    Some other clusters might not be, but VMS is. >      Is it ?   3 A platform is only as good as all the elements thata4 it consists of. HW, OS, Apps. OpenVMS does not score1 well as a Web server platform because its missing 1 apps, the HW support doesn't include 1-2U servers 2 and there is no crypto support. The one thing that7 OpenVMS has which may be better than other OS platforms-6 clustering isn't needed. The same applies to a greater1 or lesser extent to some but not all of the otherc categories.w  . Compute, what sort of LSF or grid type support. is available for OpenVMS, fast message passing etc ?n     > 4 >>You could go as far as to say the one applications0 >>cluster technology "Gold Standard" is anothers >>chocolate teapot.s >> > 4 >    Must be some kinda chocolate, since it can keep2 >    all the eaters happy.  Hershey would like the3 >    recipe, but they're too busy fighting over thei
 >    sale. >  > / >>I would also disagree with the idea that UNIXl1 >>clusters use the same "paradigm" as NSK, infactu" >>most UNIX clusters are much more% >>analogous to VMS clusters than NSK.t >> > 8 >    Get real.  Most UNIX clusters are more analogous to9 >    MS clusters, with just a little automation poured ons	 >    top.l >  >     5 Hum that tends to suggest a lack of knowledge of UNIXw4 clusters. Global filesystems and devices for example8 are something that MS doesn't have but UNIX clusters do.   Regardsn Andrew Harrisons   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 02:11:35 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t Subject: Re: "inview" Article J Message-ID: <rZdd9.160700$8aG1.61058@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message = news:yVbd9.394138$m91.15563431@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...: >:< > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:qHhl7l+0tLKT@eisner.encompasserve.org...gJ > > In article <al2s4m$4ev$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUKC > Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes:e > > >u8 > > > It all depends what you want to do with a cluster. > > >u5 > > > If you want to provide a resiliant scalable webi7 > > > server infrastructure then neither NSK or OpenVMSs6 > > > are the "Gold Standard" for this kind of service8 > > > because the facilites they offer are not required. > >o= > >    And the facilities they provide hurt how?  In fact thec: > >    facilitites VMS provides can be used to make a more@ > >    reliable web server than most other clusters can provide.= > >    If your bussiness is ebussiness, your . in .com better  > >    be VMS. >lJ > Unfortunately, as has been pointed out with what I would have considered toL > be a more than adequate frequency, there's the small matter of third-partyK > software availability to consider in that decision.  And in any event the4L > point was not that VMS's additional flexibility hurt in any way, just that; > it didn't help significantly either in many applications.d >t > > # > > > Ditto an apps server cluster.s > > > 7 > > > If you want a shared nothing compute cluster thene< > > > you will also find that there are different contenders7 > > > for the "Gold Standard" none of which require NSKe6 > > > or OpenVMS. If you want to verify this then look5 > > > no further than the top500 list where there are 4 > > > laods of shared nothing clusters none of which( > > > are running either NSK or OpenVMS. > >t? > >    Did you ever try to compute in a shared nothing cluster?a> > >    Sure limits what you can compute.  Witness the original8 > >    reason DEC came up with a VAXcluster:  to provide8 > >    a computing environment with more horsepower than( > >    any one VAX they had at the time. >iL > You'll really have to amplify what you mean by that statement considerablyD > to avoid having it appear truly confused:  as far as computational activityK > goes, most clusters look pretty much alike (save for those that implementa > shared memory).n >l > >s8 > > > The problem is that clusters cover everything from6 > > > Compute, to Web to Apps to file and DBMS. No one7 > > > cluster technology is the "Gold Standard" becauseo6 > > > one one technology is suitable for all the tasks > > > that you may need to run.t > >m: > >    Guess again.  VMS is suitable for all of the above.4 > >    Some other clusters might not be, but VMS is. >sC > That's one I can agree with whole-heartedly:  while the added VMS 
 facilitiesF > may not be all that critical to a great deal of clustering uses, VMS beyondF > any shadow of a doubt provides basic clustering capability that is aH > superset of anyone else's (though that's not as true of the underlying OS -K > e.g., in not providing at least as an option a log-protected file system,eC > which can be more appropriate than ODS-2 in *some* applications).o >> > ...c >R3 > > > I would also disagree with the idea that UNIXb5 > > > clusters use the same "paradigm" as NSK, infacts& > > > most UNIX clusters are much more) > > > analogous to VMS clusters than NSK.  > >e: > >    Get real.  Most UNIX clusters are more analogous to; > >    MS clusters, with just a little automation poured ong > >    top.     I The reality of it is that while VMS has both qualitative and quantitativeiK advantages in clustering, most customers don't think that far in advance orwA thoroughly enough. (Images of large flocks of sheep come to mind)t  L Even if they did, they would most likely stick with what they currently haveJ (probably unix of one flavor or another) and look to 3rd-party packages toE smooth over some of the rough bits that the os vendor doesn't provideiL natively, and think that's good enough. And for some companies, well, they'dJ be fine with that, playing roulette with the future of the company and theK shareholder's equity...after all they are just management, and not the realiG owners who have their retirement savings invested in the company stock.t  L Disaster Tolerance is probably the one key differentiator that HP can use toI leverage VMS into new customers. Hurricanes and flooding give you time tolJ backup and activate a more or less orderly recover plan (if you have one).E But tornados, localized major accidents (refinery fires, railway carsNB burning with chlorine, etc), wide-area power outages, earthquakes,F California sliding into the sea, and NBC terrorism are all area-denial* events that simply happen without warning.  I With all the preparations (wild speculation mode on) that are undoubtedlyrE going on vis-a-vis George the 43rd and Iraq, all it would take is onecK munitions ship or a LNG carrier to collide with another ship in a harbor tosK knock out a good portion of a metropolitan area. For those of you who don'tMI know about such things, Halifax , Canada - 1917...the munitions ship Mont H Blanc....the largest explosion ever prior to the 1st A-bomb. Pretty much leveled Halifax. .  I All that doesn't mean that HP should simply throw in the towel...there ishD wonderful business to be had by VMS if it is advertised and marketedE effectively. Most customers = more references = more customers = morem9 3rd-party software = more competitive wins = and so on...   I DT is far more easily enabled with existing apps and VMS  (porting to VMScF from unix/MS aside) that just about any combination of other os'es andK 3rd-party products, and with paranoia running high these days, marketing DT F is a good strategy. Even in todays' economy I'd bet that $1 million inC effective VMS DT marketing to new customers would make a noticeablea# improvement in bottom line results.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 22:49:32 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>g Subject: Re: "inview" Articlef, Message-ID: <3D7574BB.CA439999@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote:sK > All that doesn't mean that HP should simply throw in the towel...there is F > wonderful business to be had by VMS if it is advertised and marketed > effectively.    L There is one issue however. If Disaster Tolerance is VMS's only strength, it@ won't be enough because you need to have the applications first.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 04:00:52 GMTa* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: "inview" ArticlegC Message-ID: <Uzfd9.398331$m91.15770304@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>I  2 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4026609A0@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. .. Bob,  C An example where OpenVMS clusters provide additional value as a webe and/or app server -   E - common system disk (real SSI i.e.. no requirement for separate booteG disk partitions with "common" code shared as in some UNIX clusters that C claim to have SSI. This is analogous in the OpenVMS realm to havinge> sys$common on a common system disk, but requiring sys$specificH directories to be on separate disks - RAIDED of course for availability)   ***nL This is a fine example of a non-functional difference:  it may in some casesJ be marginally *easier* to manage, but it provides absolutely no additional *functionality*. ***i  < - common Apache disk i.e.. Apache$common and Apache$specificE directories. Great for helping to keep files in sync and for upgradesd< i.e. upgrade once and all servers are done. Change a file inG Apache$common and automatically all servers can use. Upgrading separateeD and unique OS and Apache versions could be more a chore with 20+ Web  servers on non-OpenVMS clusters.   *** H Yes, it *could* be, *if* such clusters did not elect to run their ApacheF instances from a single, shared Apache directory - just as VMS can do:E whether it's accessed directly or through a server doesn't affect the. ability to share it. ***   H - Using Galaxy, with database on one OS partition and Web/App servers onG other partitions, one can share the CPU's between OS instances based onhF - time of day, actual loads (who needs the extra CPU's gets them), andC /or manual drag-n-drop.  If the database partition needs additional G cpu's for after hours maint crunching, then a rule can be setup to make  this happen.   ***nJ That's nice, but has absolutely nothing to do with the cluster archicture:D it's a Galaxy-specific hardware feature that VMS supports completelyL orthogonally to clustering.  You might as well cite some virtue of RMS as anD advantage:  that can be true as well, but, again, is a virtue of theJ underlying system (and VMS without question has underlying virtues) rather" than of VMS's clustering approach. ***o  H - clustered batch system makes batch jobs easier to run and load balance# amongst available system resources.    *** K I'll give you that one, though if batch load-balancing is not critical once ; again it's more a convenience than a functional difference.v ***s  C - clustered disk quota's ensure processes do not run away with diski( space - no matter what node they run on.   *** I Wow - just like quotas work in Unix clusters.  What made you believe thatl% serving the data made any difference?s ***,  E - clustered security monitoring ensure hacker can not hit a number ofoH servers, try 3 times, fail and then be successful attacking a subsequentA server. With OpenVMS clusters, one setup security such that any 3dC attempts at any server in the cluster locks out that account on alla servers in the cluster.0   ***4B You're really stretching on that one:  if the difference between aJ successful hack comes down to whether the attacker can make 3 or, say, 9 -K 12 attempts in a single time window, you've got far worse problems to worry4 about. ***5  = - With Oracle 8i/9i, one can use shared memory as the clustero? interconnect for Oracle back end databases amongst different OSs< partitions on GS Series AlphaServers. Extremely fast cluster communication mechanism.   ***tJ But once again, you will note, nothing to do with the cluster architectureJ itself.  And do you have reason to believe that the exactly the same thing1 can't be done on a large, partitioned Sun server?n ***   D - Native class scheduler ensures one group of processes does not get9 more CPU resources than it has been previously allocated.l   ***aL Could be important, more likely just another 'kinda nice' feature that won't make or break a configuration.  K I think the above does a better job than I was able to myself of explainingeL why VMS clusters no longer offer the decisive differentiation that they onceI did.  You can sell VMS on the basis of its stability, or its security, or J its Galaxy features (now that Tru64 has a third strike against it), or itsK support of asynchrony or near-real-time operation, or (God forbid) RMS, andlL those can all be real virtues when they apply to the user's needs - but noneJ of them relate to whether VMS's clustering approach is significantly - andE especially *functionally* - superior to Unix's from a user viewpoint.a   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Sep 2002 08:26:58 -0600n- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)t Subject: Re: "inview" Article 3 Message-ID: <lU5qKHjVfnWN@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <al4jq3$lcl$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes: > 0 > You don't need the overhead, performance isn't2 > great, there isn't a huge software portfolio and/ > there is no crypto accelerator support. Thatsh > the OS delt with.e  D    The overhead when the features aren't used is so small as to makeC    your comment laughable.  As far as a huge portfolio, you want a aA    web server, you've got a choice of several.  You want SAP, youiA    can't.  We were talking web servers.  Of all the web servers Io    use, only one talks to SAP.  ?    Just when was the last time you looked at the apps which are-#    available for ebussiness on VMS?2  4 > Hardware is expensive, there are no rack optimised3 > 1 or 2U systems typically used in web serving andj > its also hot.   8    IIRC the 1U system doesn't currenly run VMS, but that3    could be changed if a customer really wanted it.w  3 > But thats exacly what is being done by almost all<4 > the top500 clusters, shared nothing compute. Their4 > criteria is access to cheap cycles coupled with an3 > efficient SW and hardware infrastructure for MPP.   <    So what?  Lots of clusters are doing heavy computing that8    is not shared nothing.  I've done heavy computing and=    found I could solve problems via DLM that a chared nothinge9    cluster couldn't do.  So I could do shared nothing andl*    ignore DLM or use DLM when I needed it.    	 > Is it ?a >   )    Yep.  You've failed to show otherwise.d  7 > Hum that tends to suggest a lack of knowledge of UNIXb6 > clusters. Global filesystems and devices for example: > are something that MS doesn't have but UNIX clusters do.  >    Failover instead of shared resources and lack of a DLM are @    common to most UNIX clusters and to MS clusters.  They may be=    greasing the slides with thouroughly different grease, buth&    the foundation tends to be similar.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Sep 2002 08:54:48 -0700d1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)d Subject: Re: "inview" Articlen= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0209040754.554af582@posting.google.com>r  U Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message news:<3D74EA9E.6AF6B0BE@aaa.com>...h= > Another question, have you found any feature *lacking* fromr > VMS clusters ?  B I really like the process shadowing that NSK allows -- although itF takes a lot of effort in coding the application properly to be able toD use it, and I'd really rather see an OS-based mechanism that is moreC transparent and thus more-readily applied to existing programs, theeF ability for one process to be updated continuously so as to be able toF take over the work of another process if that process (or the hardwareE on which it is running) fails, would be quite valuable.  Today in VMSsE clusters, if a node fails, you lose all the processes running on thathA node.  While with tools like RTR (licensed free with VMS) you cans@ achieve the same results from the end user's standpoint as NSK's? process shadowing, I'd still like to see VMS gain this ability.>  C Another thing I came across: HP's MC/Service Guard clustering has amF product called Quorum Server, which is software that runs as a processF on a non-clustered system (or a member of a different cluster) and canD provide a tie-breaking vote to up to 50 different clusters, totaling> as many as 100 nodes.  While it really just presents a virtualF "cluster lock" disk to the cluster members, analogous to a node simply@ serving a VMS quorum disk, rather than really participating as aB voting member of the cluster itself, I think it would be nice if aE real tie-breaking Quorum Server process capability were available fortC VMS.  We can use a VMS system to provide a tie-breaking vote today,oF but since it can only do so for the single cluster that it is a memberF of, we need one VMS quorum node per cluster.  Arguably this not a hugeD functional difference, but it appears to be the one thing that HP-UX% clusters have today that VMS doesn't.t. ----------------------------------------------. Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 17:06:34 +0100lU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>o Subject: Re: "inview" Articleg0 Message-ID: <al5b4m$t3g$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:   > In article <al4jq3$lcl$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes: > 0 >>You don't need the overhead, performance isn't2 >>great, there isn't a huge software portfolio and/ >>there is no crypto accelerator support. Thats  >>the OS delt with.o >> > F >    The overhead when the features aren't used is so small as to makeE >    your comment laughable.  As far as a huge portfolio, you want a .C >    web server, you've got a choice of several.  You want SAP, you.C >    can't.  We were talking web servers.  Of all the web servers It  >    use, only one talks to SAP. >     = I wasn't talking about SAP. You don't have iPlanet/SunOne Webk: server. Some apps servers require this, you don't have any: crypto plugin support or any HSM support so you are out of= the picture in any B2B infrastructures you don't have support 9 for a number of the popular load balancing products. Thisv; is just what you need for web serving. Where is FireWall-1, 8 Tripwire. What caching proxy server capabilities can you3 provide, does OpenVMS support any kind of directory 7 caching. What about Portal support, BEA Portal Server ?   9 The fact that OpenVMS has good clustering capabilities is  almost entirely irrelevant.     A >    Just when was the last time you looked at the apps which ares% >    available for ebussiness on VMS?. >l    1 I just did, when did you last look at what a realw% ebusiness infrastructure looks like ?h    e > 4 >>Hardware is expensive, there are no rack optimised3 >>1 or 2U systems typically used in web serving and  >>its also hot.  >> > : >    IIRC the 1U system doesn't currenly run VMS, but that5 >    could be changed if a customer really wanted it.n >     2 Really, there have been loads of requests for this1 in the past from customers (its called affordableg5 OpenVMS in case you are having difficulty rememberingh3 the threads). Where are the boxes the requests haven been made repeatedly.u     > 3 >>But thats exacly what is being done by almost allo4 >>the top500 clusters, shared nothing compute. Their4 >>criteria is access to cheap cycles coupled with an3 >>efficient SW and hardware infrastructure for MPP.  >> > > >    So what?  Lots of clusters are doing heavy computing that: >    is not shared nothing.  I've done heavy computing and? >    found I could solve problems via DLM that a chared nothingc; >    cluster couldn't do.  So I could do shared nothing ande, >    ignore DLM or use DLM when I needed it. >     5 So what about LSF, Grids message passing toolkits and  hardware etc for OpenVMS ??r  6 And do the ones that are available make any active use" of OpenVMS's cluster capabilites ?     Regardso Andrew Harrisona   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 11:25:36 -0500e& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> Subject: Re: "inview" Article 8 Message-ID: <96ccnus7mj31uparp048lla7d35mfetaea@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 18:38:20 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyn4 <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote:     >a3 >It all depends what you want to do with a cluster.t >,0 >If you want to provide a resiliant scalable web2 >server infrastructure then neither NSK or OpenVMS1 >are the "Gold Standard" for this kind of services3 >because the facilites they offer are not required.v  E I completely agree, clustering web servers (assuming static pages, ortB minimal updating) is way overkill.  Blade servers with imaged boot> disks is the more economical way to go, and the network can be2 configured to load-balance requests among servers.   >i >Ditto an apps server cluster.  B This is not *necessarily* true.  There are many, many applicationsD that work great in a cluster.  The big payback is that you can share< resources easily (at least you can with a VMScluster).  MostE applications do not utilize resources, or even locking activity, thati; heavily to be much of a problem.  Clustering them gives you E scalability, flexibility, and availability.  You can load-balance all = workload activity among cluster members, and still have faultn2 resilience in the event of failures (or upgrades).  D This has been true for well over 95% of the applications - both COTS0 as well as home-grown - that I have worked with.   > 2 >If you want a shared nothing compute cluster then7 >you will also find that there are different contenderso2 >for the "Gold Standard" none of which require NSK1 >or OpenVMS. If you want to verify this then lookn0 >no further than the top500 list where there are/ >laods of shared nothing clusters none of whicha# >are running either NSK or OpenVMS.t   I agree, partially.     C First off, imho, NSK solves a different problem than clusters, so Il: don't really consider that when I'm discussing clustering.  @ My 3 overriding reasons for clustering are in my response above.E Depending on what you mean by "compute clusters", they may be able toiD provide near linear scalability.  E.g., in my scientific environmentF experiences the apps mostly performed calculations, with minimal-to-no< locking activity.  Now, they don't share too much, true, but; clustering (with shared-everything approach) can reduce thea6 administration overhead of utilizing multiple servers:D Install/configure/maintain  the software *once* for all servers, and: load-balance the workloads for all apps among the servers.   >o3 >The problem is that clusters cover everything from 1 >Compute, to Web to Apps to file and DBMS. No one 2 >cluster technology is the "Gold Standard" because1 >one one technology is suitable for all the taskse >that you may need to run.  E True, to an extent.  Now, obviously, my favorite is VMSclusters.  AndmD I can use them for practically any environment you can come up with.D I just don't think web farms is the most ideal use for them.... with? one exception:  If you want a web farm that's is very simple toaD maintain multiple servers, with a high level of security, and a highC level of reliability, then I can see putting in a VMScluster.  It'si! not necessary, but it works well.b    . >I would also disagree with the idea that UNIX0 >clusters use the same "paradigm" as NSK, infact! >most UNIX clusters are much morea$ >analogous to VMS clusters than NSK.   That was my impression too.    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Sep 2002 15:38:06 GMTr From: Jim <jim@jim.com>- Subject: After Memory Upgrade0. Message-ID: <Xns927F74B7FFA90jimwork@10.1.0.4>   Hello,  I After we upgraded the memory on our vax4000 two node cluster from 128 to 9& 256meg, performance has been very bad.  K Jumping from screen to screen takes a long time, there seems to be alot of  K ENQ/DEQ (ie. file locks?) and the command $monitor cluster/interval=1 does t* NOT update every 1 second like it used to.  
 Any thoughts?    Thanks   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 12:02:37 -0400; From: "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>e! Subject: RE: After Memory UpgradeoK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E49028BEA66@rlghncst964.usps.gov>f  0 Didst thou AUTOGEN subsequently to said upgrade?   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----  From: "Jim" [mailto:jim@jim.com], Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 11:38 AM To: "Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com"  Subject: After Memory Upgrader     Hello,  H After we upgraded the memory on our vax4000 two node cluster from 128 to& 256meg, performance has been very bad.  J Jumping from screen to screen takes a long time, there seems to be alot ofJ ENQ/DEQ (ie. file locks?) and the command $monitor cluster/interval=1 does* NOT update every 1 second like it used to.  
 Any thoughts?t   Thanks   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 16:58:14 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGn7 Subject: Alpha system model # changing after an upgradee0 Message-ID: <00A136D2.079830C7@SendSpamHere.ORG>  J A customer claims that an OpenVMS upgrade from V7.1-2 to V7.2-1 causes theK HW_MODEL number to change from 1838 (V7.1-2) to 1920 (V7.2-1).  I don't be-uK lieve this is possible.  I do believe that this customer is simply lying toe8 get a product licensing key for unauthorized hardware.    / Will somebody please verify this here for me?  e   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            l5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" m   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:33:06 GMTc From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGv; Subject: Re: Alpha system model # changing after an upgrade 0 Message-ID: <00A136E7.A9DB92B9@SendSpamHere.ORG>  [ In article <al2v81$1lvs58$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> writes:e > - ><system@SendSpamHere.ORG> schreef in berichtt+ >news:00A136D2.079830C7@SendSpamHere.ORG... M >> A customer claims that an OpenVMS upgrade from V7.1-2 to V7.2-1 causes theeJ >> HW_MODEL number to change from 1838 (V7.1-2) to 1920 (V7.2-1).  I don't >be-K >> lieve this is possible.  I do believe that this customer is simply lyingr >tot9 >> get a product licensing key for unauthorized hardware.g >>0 >> Will somebody please verify this here for me? >>K >Two VAXstations report the the same value for HW_NAME but return differentsJ >values for HW_MODEL. Now that does not answer your question, but it shows) >that there are possible inconsistencies.aG >Did the output of SHOW LICENSE/CHARGE change with the upgrade as well?a >  >Hansr >u  I Are you certain that they are the same model VAXstation?  On the VAX, the J model number is used to index into a table of addresses.  These addresses 4 point to ASCIC strings which contain the model name.  3 This is not how the model name is derived on Alpha.h --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            v5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:25:46 -0500< From: "Stanley Reynolds" <nospam_stanley_reynolds@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?nA Message-ID: <jp6d9.67023$vY2.1522231@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>o  L We went from a application running on a vax to the alpha two things happenedJ the programs were now twice as big and the memory (RAM) required was twiceL as big. So to stay even cpu clock should run 4 times faster on the alpha and double memory and disk.r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:53:26 -0400; From: "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>d9 Subject: RE: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?lK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E49028BEA64@rlghncst964.usps.gov>t  ' All generalizations are false, Stanley.u :^)t   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----C From: "Stanley Reynolds" [mailto:nospam_stanley_reynolds@yahoo.com]e) Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 1:25 PMd To: "Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com" 9 Subject: RE: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?v    L We went from a application running on a vax to the alpha two things happenedJ the programs were now twice as big and the memory (RAM) required was twiceL as big. So to stay even cpu clock should run 4 times faster on the alpha and double memory and disk.v   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:58:21 -0500< From: "Stanley Reynolds" <nospam_stanley_reynolds@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?f< Message-ID: <8lpd9.360$2L.54763@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>  F "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov> wrote in messageE news:BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E49028BEA64@rlghncst964.usps.gov...i >t) > All generalizations are false, Stanley.i > :^)n >s > WWWebb  > Yes, but truth is not at hand. So we make do with what we can.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 21:49:28 -0500< From: "Stanley Reynolds" <nospam_stanley_reynolds@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?u: Message-ID: <9Hnd9.78$2L.2644@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>  G > > We went from a application running on a vax to the alpha two thingse happenedH > > the programs were now twice as big and the memory (RAM) required was twice L > > as big. So to stay even cpu clock should run 4 times faster on the alpha ande > > double memory and disk.m > 0 >> ops/time = ops/inst * inst/cycle * cycle/time >u3 > ops/inst and inst/cycle is constant on a specific 7 > chip, but they can vary dramaticaly between differente% > chips within the same architecture.   H Yes good point but it is very hard to compare Complex Instruction Set toI Reduced Instruction Set architecture. You need to factor in the number of G instructions to do something useful which is many more for the alpha byyK design. The compilers are the key and in my case the programs were coded inoI BASIC. Other programming languages may have different results. The battlewE continues not sure you could call the Itanium a RISC processor but byhC today's revised standards it looks that way, at least it has a uglysH instruction set and lots of registers. It is a shame that the x86 is the/ straw man that the Itanium is measured against.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 18:36:53 +0200u@ From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk>9 Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?n+ Message-ID: <3D7636A5.6070002@mail.tele.dk>d   Stanley Reynolds wrote:   / >>ops/time = ops/inst * inst/cycle * cycle/time  >>3 >>ops/inst and inst/cycle is constant on a specifics7 >>chip, but they can vary dramaticaly between differento% >>chips within the same architecture.l > J > Yes good point but it is very hard to compare Complex Instruction Set toK > Reduced Instruction Set architecture. You need to factor in the number ofhI > instructions to do something useful which is many more for the alpha byo	 > design..     ????  2 That is what is expressed by the ops/inst factor !   Arne   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:44:18 -0500< From: "Stanley Reynolds" <nospam_stanley_reynolds@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: Alpha vs Vax? Humm How about a DEC 3000 400?s= Message-ID: <vUqd9.697$2L.128234@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>a  L > > Yes good point but it is very hard to compare Complex Instruction Set toJ > > Reduced Instruction Set architecture. You need to factor in the number ofK > > instructions to do something useful which is many more for the alpha byn > > design.h >s >h > ???? > 4 > That is what is expressed by the ops/inst factor ! >g > Arne >   L Yes, but I'am sure that this factor is not a consant but a very large matrixI of values with the weight of each function dependent on it's frequency of  use.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:38:02 +0100aU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>e Subject: Re: am/pm0 Message-ID: <al2004$ofg$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:N   > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > : >>3.) In the 24-hour system, people say times like 0700 as$ >>"O-seven-hundred hours" for 0700.  >> >  > Nop, that is military time.r > P > Normal 24 hour time is just 7 o'clock. or seven twenty one, or fourteen twenty > one, or twenty two fifty one.v > L > In french, at the top of the hour, we say "treize heures". Not sure how in2 > english they say 13:00. 13 o'clock sounds weird. >   & 13 hours does sound odd and isn't used# 1 PM or 1 would be what most peopleu
 would use.  * People trying to appear to have a military& background would say thirteen hundred.  ' These comments apply to the English whom) should not be confused with Americans whoo speak a form of English.   Regardsp Andrew Harrisonk   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:10:36 +0100t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>m Subject: Re: am/pm8 Message-ID: <el49nuc2ie98dkdrljupgclfe1c7vb6dtp@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:38:02 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyt4 <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote:   >a >s' >13 hours does sound odd and isn't used-  D Just yesterday I tuned into the BBC World Service on the web to hearD how they currently give the time. It went something like "It's threeE in the afternoon here in London, 9 in the morning in New York,..., 14$D hours Greenwich Mean Time." Yes it did sound odd. I'm sure they usedD to say "14 hundred hours Greenwich Mean Time". There was no "This isE London" announcement either which surprised me (although the web sitet9 says it is still made) but the traditional signature tune  (Lilliburlero) was  played.r  $ >1 PM or 1 would be what most people >would use.d > + >People trying to appear to have a militarya' >background would say thirteen hundred.  > ( >These comments apply to the English who* >should not be confused with Americans who >speak a form of English.a >  >Regards >Andrew Harrison   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:30:11 +0100t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>S Subject: Re: am/pm8 Message-ID: <7679nu46nd6r5gfqbntfasg8s76mtbkmcr@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:10:36 +0100, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>r wrote:  F >On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:38:02 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy5 ><andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote:j >  >> >>( >>13 hours does sound odd and isn't used > E >Just yesterday I tuned into the BBC World Service on the web to hear E >how they currently give the time. It went something like "It's threeoF >in the afternoon here in London, 9 in the morning in New York,..., 14D Ten in the morning in New York before anyone points it out. I'm used2 to communicating with Chicago, Houston and Dallas.  E >hours Greenwich Mean Time." Yes it did sound odd. I'm sure they used E >to say "14 hundred hours Greenwich Mean Time". There was no "This is F >London" announcement either which surprised me (although the web site: >says it is still made) but the traditional signature tune >(Lilliburlero) was  played. > % >>1 PM or 1 would be what most peopleb >>would use. >>, >>People trying to appear to have a military( >>background would say thirteen hundred. >>) >>These comments apply to the English whog+ >>should not be confused with Americans whoe >>speak a form of English. >>	 >>Regardse >>Andrew Harrisonn   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 19:49:02 +1000 1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au>r Subject: Re: am/pm, Message-ID: <3D75D70E.1020504@tg.nsw.gov.au>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: >  >  > JF Mezei wrote:  >  >> "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:t >>< >>> 3.) In the 24-hour system, people say times like 0700 as% >>> "O-seven-hundred hours" for 0700.i >> >> >> Nop, that is military time. >>B >> Normal 24 hour time is just 7 o'clock. or seven twenty one, or  >> fourteen twenty  >> one, or twenty two fifty one. >>G >> In french, at the top of the hour, we say "treize heures". Not sure e	 >> how ina3 >> english they say 13:00. 13 o'clock sounds weird.r >> > ( > 13 hours does sound odd and isn't used% > 1 PM or 1 would be what most people  > would use. > G Well, I've been away from the UK for 20 years and Au is very much a 12 iH hour country.  Also, I am not ex-military, I missed UK National Service H by about a month.  As opposed to 13 hundred in an early posting, I have  always said 13 Oh Oh.e  F Some of my clouded memories from the UK are after 20 years in a 12 hr H clock country, and also from the amount of time I spent living on *the* 
 continent.    , > People trying to appear to have a military( > background would say thirteen hundred. > ) > These comments apply to the English whov+ > should not be confused with Americans whos > speak a form of English. >  Like it :-)g  H But, every nation has its 'isms.  In an earlier post I mentioned floors B in buildings and the hassle I have here as a POM working out what ( Australians mean by this or last Monday.    	 > Regardse > Andrew Harrisonn   Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************a  C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegedc> and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advisenB the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.p  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid -A immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the  = individual sender except where the sender expressly and with lC authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses"> virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment."n  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 20:10:18 +1000i1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au>c Subject: Re: am/pm, Message-ID: <3D75DC0A.3080704@tg.nsw.gov.au>   Alan E. Feldman wrote:g > Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message news:<3D732529.1040508@tg.nsw.gov.au>...y > I >>Well, as Alan has several times said, he threw this in to stop another rF >>stupid thread probably betwist (in no particular order), Bill Todd, K >>Andrew Harrison and Fred Kleinsorge.  I have forgotten the title of that iH >>thread, because every time I see a combination of those names, I know  >>that I have lost interest. >>H >>Other threads that elicit no interest from me are ones with Kerry and + >>Andrew, and more recently Terry and Bill.h >>: >>Just my own 2c or 2p or 2 euro or 2 rupees, or whatever. >  >  >  > Your welcome.p   Tut, Tut "you're" :-)n   >  >  > J >>Someone, Jan Erik possibly, said that UK does not use 24 hour clock.  I I >>left there in 1982 and my memory is that all bus/train timetables were b >>24 hr. >>I >>Australia still uses 12 hr, and the bus/rail timetables have a heavier t >>font for pm. >>F >>Both my Digital watch and computer clock are always 24 hour.  Since K >>parents and brothers and their families are still in UK, it is easier to mI >>calculate the hour of the day there with 24 hour, for when I ring them.i >  >  n > F >>I find Alan's comments and his adversaries interesting but somewhat  > / >                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^?X >   > This is only a discussion. :-) > E Yeah, O.K. :-)  I have a habit of using "heavy" words in what to me, s* possibly not others, is a jocular fashion.     >  > J >>specious.  For exact 12:00, 24:00, 12 a.m. or 12 p.m., most people seem A >>to refer to (12) midday or (12) midnight with that terminology.j >  >  >  > Specious? Why? >  > I Well to copy the local dictionary at hand "adj. apparently good or right  E but without real merit; superficially pleasing."  I suppose the last  D post (was it Carl Perkins) quoting the American FAQ on time, it and I several others (including my self) find it hard to fight a definition of iF   ack emma and post emma when relating to the exact times of noon and 	 midnight.e     > I >>Folks have been talking as if there is a minute change on either side, .; >>but isn't 00:00.000000000000001 today, not yesterday and B" >>12:00.000000000000001 afternoon? >  >  > 
 > Good point.  > L Just programming training and not writing IF (real_number.EQ.0) THEN ... :-)     >  >  >>*****  >>K >>Alan, I don't think you have, so why not submit your years ago thread on @J >>symbol substitution to Hoff for the Freeware CD.  I've kept that thread E >>but I'd love to see it as an "essay" rather than interspersed with f* >>comments that you further elaborated on. >  >  > E > Why the Freeware CD? Isn't that for software? Do you mean the FAQ? k > D Hoff does include various textual things, not just software.  And I F cannot think of a better place that your overall erudition on symbols  would be more easily located.e  I Yes, and the bit below which I have snipped for brevity has gone into my o collection of Alan Feldmanisms.    [snip]   Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************o  C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged0> and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise B the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.s  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid -A immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the a= individual sender except where the sender expressly and with  C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid usesc> virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment."t  G ***********************************************************************e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 13:22:28 +02002E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>  Subject: Re: am/pm+ Message-ID: <3D75ECF4.9DE948D3@mediasec.de>e  O > Same thing when I run for the bus. A digital watch with the correct time is atL > must for me because it really tells me how fast I need to run to make it. L > With an analogue watch, I wouldn't have the stability while running to seeN > the precise time and hence, I wouldn't know if I have 45 secodns spare or if > I am late by 45 seconds.  I A bus running to its time table with errors smaller than 45 seconds? What  planet are you living on?r   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 13:25:34 +0200bE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>  Subject: Re: am/pm+ Message-ID: <3D75EDAE.F6BAB822@mediasec.de>   L > Very true. This is why analogue instruments have a distinct advantage overM > digital instruments in many cases. You just have to look if the hand of theiK > instrument is somewhat in the right position. This can also mean that theuH > instruments themselves are mounted in such a way that the hands of allM > instruments are in a 12 o'clock position for instance if everything is ok. e  K Just so - basis psychology of perception applied to human interface design.m  L As a contributing factor to some major (IIRC nuclear) accident, it was citedJ that all but one dial had the property that deviations from the norm whereK moving to the right (I think), while that one other dial moved to the left. M The operators even had added an arrow to it to remind them of the fact. None--J theless, in a stress situation this dial was preceived incorrectly. (Might even have been TMI...)   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 08:37:22 +0200l9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>l Subject: Re: am/pm' Message-ID: <3D75AA22.AF55684B@aaa.com>a   JF Mezei wrote:l > O > Same thing when I run for the bus. A digital watch with the correct time is aoP > must for me because it really tells me how fast I need to run to make it. WithK > an analogue watch, I wouldn't have the stability while running to see the O > precise time and hence, I wouldn't know if I have 45 secodns spare or if I ami > late by 45 seconds.e  D With an analog watch you'd better make sure you have 5-10 min spare.? Then you'd also feel a lot better with less stress disorder :-)2   Jan-Erik Sderholm   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Sep 2002 10:23:18 -0700R. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: am/pm= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0209040923.60236cb8@posting.google.com>R  e Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message news:<3D75DC0A.3080704@tg.nsw.gov.au>...c > Alan E. Feldman wrote:i > > Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message news:<3D732529.1040508@tg.nsw.gov.au>...  > > K > >>Well, as Alan has several times said, he threw this in to stop another 4H > >>stupid thread probably betwist (in no particular order), Bill Todd, M > >>Andrew Harrison and Fred Kleinsorge.  I have forgotten the title of that 7J > >>thread, because every time I see a combination of those names, I know  > >>that I have lost interest. > >>J > >>Other threads that elicit no interest from me are ones with Kerry and - > >>Andrew, and more recently Terry and Bill.p > >>< > >>Just my own 2c or 2p or 2 euro or 2 rupees, or whatever. > >  > > Your welcome.s >  > Tut, Tut "you're" :-)   < Yep, I suffer from "apostrophe disease" every now and then.    [...]   H > >>I find Alan's comments and his adversaries interesting but somewhat  > > 1 > >                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^?t > > " > > This is only a discussion. :-) > > G > Yeah, O.K. :-)  I have a habit of using "heavy" words in what to me, t, > possibly not others, is a jocular fashion.    - They are my honorable debating opponents. :-)e    L > >>specious.  For exact 12:00, 24:00, 12 a.m. or 12 p.m., most people seem C > >>to refer to (12) midday or (12) midnight with that terminology.c > >  > > Specious? Why? > > K > Well to copy the local dictionary at hand "adj. apparently good or right sG > but without real merit; superficially pleasing."  I suppose the last eF > post (was it Carl Perkins) quoting the American FAQ on time, it and K > several others (including my self) find it hard to fight a definition of -H >   ack emma and post emma when relating to the exact times of noon and  > midnight.     F You said both sides had "interesting but somewhat specious" arguments.  D And I don't recall Mr. Perkins commenting on this issue. And I don'tD recall seeing the American FAQ quoted here, but I do recall seeing aF quote of something from the royal or Greenwhich or both observatory. IB addressed that. But the American equivalent (NIST version) is alsoC "fuddy duddy". I even wrote to them but they were unconvinced. TheytC "re-did" all their time Web pages after I wrote them but they stillcE have the same old story about ante meridiem and such. I'll write themiE again with my new argument about the sun not crossing the meridian at-* 12:00 standard time and see what they say.    ( And what is "ack emma" and "post emma"?      [...]o  oM > >>Alan, I don't think you have, so why not submit your years ago thread on qL > >>symbol substitution to Hoff for the Freeware CD.  I've kept that thread G > >>but I'd love to see it as an "essay" rather than interspersed with  , > >>comments that you further elaborated on. > > G > > Why the Freeware CD? Isn't that for software? Do you mean the FAQ? p > > F > Hoff does include various textual things, not just software.  And I H > cannot think of a better place that your overall erudition on symbols  > would be more easily located.a    C I don't remember seeing any. Can you tell me which directories haven
 that info?    K > Yes, and the bit below which I have snipped for brevity has gone into my m! > collection of Alan Feldmanisms.      OK.      Disclaimer: JMOt Alan E. Feldmanu spamsink2001 at yahoo dot coma   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:34:00 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukH Subject: Re: am/pm  (was Re: Is the HP/Compaq merger really going well?)+ Message-ID: <al236o$5iq$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   \ In article <87ofbgxel9.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes: >"AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz> writes: >,C >> Pardon me, but if both AM and PM start *after* both midnight andnE >> noon, what do you call those? After all, it's not for nothing thatn5 >> the concept of a zero was introduced, you know ...l > @ >Well, consider. Is zero strictly positive or strictly negative? >w  + Well thats why on VMS we also have "-0"  :)p   Alpha1:dir test.dat    Directory USER52:[DAVID20]   TEST.DAT;2          TEST.DAT;1   Total of 2 files.r Alpha1:dir test.dat;0-   Directory USER52:[DAVID20]  
 TEST.DAT;2   Total of 1 file. Alpha1:dir test.dat;-0   Directory USER52:[DAVID20]  
 TEST.DAT;1   Total of 1 file.      
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University        F >1200 is nether before, ante, or after, post, meridinal passage. It ISF >meridinal passage. 2400, aka 0000 does not count anyway, as you can't >do a sun sight then :)  >l >-- = >Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,n8 >+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.A >                                             West Australia 6076m/ >Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.sG >EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 12:12:48 +0100= From: "Colin Butcher" <colinDOT.butcherAT@xdeltaDOT.coDOT.uk>)< Subject: Re: anyone have a source for MMJ cables in the UK ?@ Message-ID: <dUld9.15035$rd2.12488@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>  I Just buy the relevant connectors and a crimp tool from someone like VidekoG (www.videk.co.uk). You can buy bulk cable there as well if you need it.   I -------------------------------------------------------------------------  Hope this helps. Cheers, Colin. ' (colinDOT.butcherAT@xdeltaDOT.coDOT.uk)n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 23:58:38 -0700a' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>1  Subject: Re: Anyone need a RX50?< Message-ID: <howard-3823F1.23583803092002@enews.newsguy.com>  ? In article <0sNc9.109030$_91.141305@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>,o,  "WarlockD" <warlockd@drakesmith.net> wrote:  F > Found one in our tape isle.  Sell it for 10, and I think 10 shippingM > anywhere in the states.  Ship oversease if you have a UPS or Fedex Account.    You mean a disk, or a drive?   --  6 Today, on Pay-per-view: The World Origami Championship   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 15:49:10 +0200% From: "TFranco" <TFranco@nowhere.com> . Subject: Re: Copy of OpenVMS hobbyist CD in UK7 Message-ID: <al52tg$al1$1@server-b.cs.interbusiness.it>c   Hi,T  C same problem, subscribed the Vax Hobbyst program but no hobbyst CD.sL Could you kindly provide me with your ftp address so I can download an image of your CD ? Thanks in advancepJ P.S. my email address is franco(dot)tassone(at)inwind(dot)it --- obviously substitute (dot) and (at)    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Sep 2002 09:02:42 -0700m$ From: issinoho@slayme.com (issinoho). Subject: Re: Copy of OpenVMS hobbyist CD in UK= Message-ID: <d0141774.0209040802.5d1f6a93@posting.google.com>l  E Wrong, I'm afraid. It's perfectly possible to have an ISO image of an1E ODS disk. I used WinImage to grab an ISO copy of my VAX CD, which canaB then be transferred and burned back to CD, and is perfectly usable (and bootable) from a VAX.  F Incidentally, the image is also usable directly within Simh so you can/ confirm its validity without even having a VAX.   @ To mount an ODS2 (VAX) CD fom Windows to check if it is the real! thing, use the following utility,u4 ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/ods2.zipE This beauty can also copy from the CD to your native PC disk which istF great news if your VAX doesn't have a CD-ROM attached, but you can FTP (or even Kermit) to it.1  _ "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3D756282.1CEC619@fsi.net>...a > issinoho wrote:o > > 	 > > Guys,l > > D > > OK. Will email you privately with FTP details in next day or so. > > C > > It will be an ISO image so burn it to CD-R with any half-decentt > > package (I useI > > Click 'n Burn Pro, but a simpler package like FireBurner will do juste
 > > as well).m3 > > The CD will then be bootable from VAX chevrons.l > : > If it's an ISO image, it will not be bootable or usable. >  > It needs to be ODS image.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:50:10 -0400.- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>v Subject: Re: DEC-adenced, Message-ID: <3D74F650.8A006DBD@videotron.ca>   Fabio Cardoso wrote: >  > Do you know this site ???  >  > Click  > 1 > http://telnet.hu/hamster/decadence/e_index.html   R Sacrilege, there is an IBM 3270 terminal next to all this DEC gear :-) :-) :-) :-)  K For me, the decwriters are so "Digital"... Still remember the scene in "The*H China Syndrome" with the decwriters printing out those dire messages....   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:29:15 -0400i: From: Charlie McCutcheon <charlie.mccutcheonNO@SPAMhp.com>1 Subject: Re: DECC RTL Migration - Advice Requiredl* Message-ID: <3D7618BB.6435E137@SPAMhp.com>  6 Got the following advise from a long time CRTL expert.   -----------------n  9 I think, the customer needs to link against vaxc2decc.exe @ interoperability tool. The only purpose in life of vaxc2decc.exe@ is to allow linking objects which were previously linked againstE vax c rtl (vaxcrtl.exe image) to link against dec c rtl (decc$shr.exeu? image). The vaxc2decc tool is described in section 1.2.2 of the" Migration Guide.   Hope, it helps.s   x.ca ---y$ main() { printf("hello, world\n"); }   BUGSY::_1> cc/vaxc x.c# BUGSY::_1> anal/obj/out=x.ana x.obj* BUGSY::_1> sea x.ana printf-                  symbol: "PRINTF"                  symbol: "PRINTF"@ BUGSY::_1> link x.obj, sys$input:/opt  << link against vax c rtl sys$share:vaxcrtl.exe/share0  Exitn BUGSY::_1> run x.exe hello, world@ BUGSY::_1> link x.obj                  << link against dec c rtl& %LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 2 undefined symbols: %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         C$MAIN %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         PRINTFO BUGSY::_1> link x.obj, sys$input:/opt  << link against dec c rtl (decc$shr.exe) < sys$share:vaxc2decc.exe/share          << via vaxc2decc tool  Exitt BUGSY::_1> run x.exe hello, world
 BUGSY::_1>   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 16:10:52 GMT>4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>' Subject: Re: DECW$CALENDAR file format.r0 Message-ID: <3D762F05.699C72EB@blueyonder.co.uk>   JF Mezei wrote:u  s > O > If HP is not willing to  COMMIT to further development of DECW$CALENDAR, then J > the source code for this "example" utility that comes with VMS should be" > included in the VMS freeware CD.  - I'd say DECW$EXAMPLES wold be a better place.  -- > tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk h  H * PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2002 16:00:54 GMTn/ From: Thomas Dickey <dickey@saltmine.radix.net>  Subject: Re: Escape Sequences * Message-ID: <al2mbm$ep4$2@news1.radix.net>  . Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@free.fr> wrote: > $ esc[0,8] = 27a% > $! or CSI = 255 (CSI = <ESC> + "[")   > $ bold  = esc + "[1m"			! bold! > $ blink = esc + "[4m"			! blinks& > $ under = esc + "[5m"			! underlined) > $ rev   = esc + "[7m"			! reverse videom6 > $ noesc = esc + "[m"			! cancel all previous effects1 > $ dblu  = esc + "#3"			! double high upper parto1 > $ dbll  = esc + "#4"			! double high lower partd  G You omitted single-width/single-height (esc # 5).  I don't believe that ( sgr affects the double-sized characters.  K > There is also a bouble high double width but as I never used it, I do not  > remember it :-)s  K You just quoted them.  The fourth combination is double-width/single-heightn
 (esc # 6).   -- (= Thomas E. Dickey <dickey@radix.net> <dickey@herndon4.his.com>c http://dickey.his.come ftp://dickey.his.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:43:42 -0000h( From: Paul Williams <news@celigne.co.uk> Subject: Re: Escape Sequences0: Message-ID: <Xns927ED2DE47950newscelignecouk@216.168.3.30>  C Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> wrote in news:3D74735C.9A28586@Omond.net:   D > I thought the effect of the ^E was to wedge the VT100 so that onlyC > a power off could unwedge it.  What was it then if it wasn't ^E ?  > = > There was another one to set the VT100 into self-test mode. - > Paul Williams (of vt100.net), what was it ?s  L It was possible to loop any of the self tests until the machine was powered K off (or until failure), so that ESC [ 2 ; 10 y would perform a looped data   loopback test.  E There were also the annoying musical sequences. I would point you to tJ Sloppy's page of VT100 Oddities, but it appears to have vanished from the  net. :(l   - Paul   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 23:45:30 GMTy$ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU3 Subject: File corruption (VMS 7.2-2) - ideas sought*8 Message-ID: <00A136F1.C745D5E9@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>   comp.os.vmsers --e  . DS20E and AlphaServer 800 (shared system disk)
 VMS 7.2-2 
 RA7000, HSZ70t  K I spent Saturday installing Multinet 4.4, Rdb 7.1.0.3, and the consolidatedeG ECO patch for 7.2-2, plus the RMS ECO 4.  (Also started running CSWS ineG production, but I hope that's not relevant.)  We also shut both systemsiF down and changed the cache battery in the RA7000.  When we started theE RA7000 we noticed tht one of the disks in the stripe set was flashingiK yellow and one of the hot spares was showing access; apparently we'd lost aeG disk and the RA7000 was rebuilding the stripe set.  (I sure thought I'dbF configured SWCC to email me if that happened, but it didn't - possiblyK because SWCC would have been running on one of the nodes that we shut down,*# so it might have missed the event.)*  K It seems that Thursday night (after the incremental backups had run) we hadeH a mysterious crash of both main cluster nodes, which share a system diskD and data disks that sit in an RA7000, connected to both systems by aD Y-shaped SCSI cable.  I'm suspecting a power spike, despite the UPS.  I All the user files and all the webserver files sit on a 6-disk RAID-5 setf in the RA7000.    F When the incremental backups ran Sunday night, the logs show that theyF found a bunch of .DIR files that weren't directories (any more).  UserI complaints on Tuesday lead us to MAIL.MAI files with invalid buckets and sJ MAIL$*.MAI files with illegal record sizes.  Other problems - a broken GIFI in the webserver directory - show that other files are messed up as well.18 These are files that shouldn't have been written at all.  J We're having trouble figuring out when this disk corruption occurred.  TheJ Thursday-night (pre-crash) backup is good; the Sunday night (post-upgrade_H backup is bad.  (I don't have an image backup of the data disk from justH before the upgrade since I figured I was only upgrading the system disk;" the system disk seems to be okay.)  E Any ideas?  Is there a known failure mode of the RA7000 that producesnJ randomly distributed errors?  Is there any known problem with RMS ECO 4 on& VMS 7.2-2?  Where should I be looking?   Thanks,t   -- Alane   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 12:49:08 -0400i- From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>h0 Subject: Re: Fortune Magazine and a post-VMS rap( Message-ID: <3D763984.A9B49D01@ohio.edu>   Paul Repacholi wrote:  > 1 > "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> writes:r > F > > I have long thought that one of the reasons for the success of theG > > Macintosh and the languishing of Windows 1 and 2 was that there was-F > > no shipping product using the Motorola 68000 with a character cellG > > interface, so no one knew at a gut level how much compute power was H > > being soaked up by Apple's Mac GUI, but everyone knew right away how > > much Windows was consuming.g > I > And what of the small herd of 68K unix and other systems that seeminglye> > every man and his dog was peddeling? Or the original Apollo. > 3 > (Yeah, the dog did a better job in many cases...)     H If I was un-aware of them at the time, I suspect many others were also. I Furthermore, I do not recall anyone making complaints about the early Mac ( as being slow compared to those systems.  	 						RDP      >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.KB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   -- 0B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 17:25:56 +00002 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>0 Subject: Re: Fortune Magazine and a post-VMS rap4 Message-ID: <20020904172556.N11071@eisenschmidt.org>  L Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Richard D. Piccard (piccard@ohio.edu) Wrote: >  > Paul Repacholi wrote:n > > 3 > > "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> writes:u > > H > > > I have long thought that one of the reasons for the success of theI > > > Macintosh and the languishing of Windows 1 and 2 was that there was.H > > > no shipping product using the Motorola 68000 with a character cellI > > > interface, so no one knew at a gut level how much compute power washJ > > > being soaked up by Apple's Mac GUI, but everyone knew right away how! > > > much Windows was consuming.  > > K > > And what of the small herd of 68K unix and other systems that seeminglyn@ > > every man and his dog was peddeling? Or the original Apollo. > > 5 > > (Yeah, the dog did a better job in many cases...)2 >  > J > If I was un-aware of them at the time, I suspect many others were also. K > Furthermore, I do not recall anyone making complaints about the early Mace* > as being slow compared to those systems. >  > 						RDPo  D There was an interview in the Register earlier this year with BenoitC  Schillings and Dominic Giampaolo who worked for BeOS. There was a f6 great quote in the article about GUIs and performance:  1 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/24648.html   B "I think at Be from the beginning we were aware that a lot of whatC users perceive as performance is the details, and not a function ofeD the real performance of the system. It's how you present things. TheF idea of having many threads: that's the reason for that. With Be, evenC if the machine was slow, you still had a thread that could respond.y  A A good deal of the perceived performance of BeOS really came fromlB threading. It was really the thing that made the difference there.. It's not magic: you just give the impression."   -- t/ John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>t6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisenM  GPG Public Key  | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.asc D  GPG Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2O This mail is an attachment? Read http://www.jensbenecke.de/misc/outlook.en.htmla   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:27:47 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk! Subject: Re: Help installing Pinea+ Message-ID: <al22r3$5iq$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>h  [ In article <al0hl1$1lu4hv$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> writes:tL >Compilation warnings are repeated by the LINKER and the LIBRARIAN to signalL >that something may have escaped the programmer's attention. Could very wellM >be that the program was written in C and that the compiler had some warnings ? >that had no effect on code quality (that seems possible in C). K >So all the object files are stored in an object library (.OLB filetype): a J >convenient way to store all those compiler output files without getting a! >directory with too many entries.a >k I note the line :-  G >> %VMSBUILD-I-CCLIENT, Building C-client library with DEC C and NO TCP$ >support  F Could it be that there is a qualifier which you need to provide to theL build specifying which TCPIP stack (UCX, TCPWARE, MULTINET) you are building with.e  F I know a number of products which you have to build with commands like   @MAKEVMS  XXX YYY  UCXTCPt  G where XXX, YYY and UCXTCP are various qualifiers used in the build and  2 UCXTCP tells the build to use the UCX TCPIP stack.N These are usually used by ifdefs in the code to pull in various include files.    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University      % >(next comment in your original text)r >s: >"Francisco Ortega" <fortega@iblues.cc> schreef in bericht; >news:pU5c9.10080$FJ1.607249@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...IM >> Well, I did that, I realize that is not compiling well, some gets compileddI >> but at the end , I'm getting this compiling errors. Can you or someonet >elset >> help. thanksg >>, >> VMSBUILD-I-LIBRARY, Creating PICO library? >> %LIBRAR-W-COMCOD, compilation warnings in module OS_VMS file  >> DKA0:[DATA.FRANCISC+ >> O.PINE.PINE-3-91-BETA8.PICO]OS_VMS.OBJ;11= >> %LIBRAR-W-COMCOD, compilation warnings in module PICO file  >> DKA0:[DATA.FRANCISCO.' >> PINE.PINE-3-91-BETA8.PICO]PICO.OBJ;1k< >> %VMSBUILD-I-LINK, Linking stand-alone PICO editor utility' >> %LINK-W-WRNERS, compilation warningsw >>         in module PICO file7 >> DKA0:[DATA.FRANCISCO.PINE.PINE-3-91-BETA8.PICO]PICO.  >> OLB;1' >> %LINK-W-WRNERS, compilation warnings.  >>         in module OS_VMS file5 >> DKA0:[DATA.FRANCISCO.PINE.PINE-3-91-BETA8.PICO]PIC0
 >> O.OLB;16 >> %LINK-W-MULDEF, symbol DECC$UNLINK multiply definedD >>         in module DECC$SHR file SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$SHR.EXE;1G >> %VMSBUILD-I-CCLIENT, Building C-client library with DEC C and NO TCP- >support >> $ >>M >CC/PREFIX=(ALL,EXCEPT=(SOCKET,CONNECT,BIND,LISTEN,SOCKET_READ,SOCKET_WRITE,Sl >> OCu >>M >KET_CLOSE,SELECT,ACCEPT,BCMP,BCOPY,BZERO,GETHOSTBYNAME,GETHOSTBYADDR,GETPEER  >> NAME8 >>M >,GETDTABLESIZE,HTONS,HTONL,NTOHS,NTOHL,SEND,SENDTO,RECV,RECVFROM))/STANDARD=5 >> VAXCg >>M >/DEFINE=(_DECC_V4_SOURCE,_XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED,VMSIO)/WARNING=DISABLE=TOOFE_ >> WACT@ >> UALS/NOOPTIMIZE OS_VMSo >>F >>     u_char          sin6_len;           /* length of this struct */ >> ....^? >> %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.i3 >> at line number 376 in module IN6 of text libraryo" >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDEF. >> TLB;2 >-K >This is where things go wrong. Perhaps the compiler cannot find an include H >file. Or the u_char type is a predefined basetype in another C dialect.0 >Apparently CC does not know what to do with it.* >The same happens further on with u_short. >s4 >This is something the owner of PINE should address. >b >Hanso >m9 >>     u_char          sin6_family;        /* AF_INET6 */  >> ....^? >> %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier..3 >> at line number 377 in module IN6 of text libraryo" >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDEF. >> TLB;2 >>D >>     u_short rhdr_offset;         /* data offset in IPv6 packet */ >> ....^? >> %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.D3 >> at line number 458 in module IN6 of text libraryt" >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDEF. >> TLB;2 >>; >>     u_char  rhdr_proto;          /* The protocol type */n >> ....^? >> %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier. 3 >> at line number 459 in module IN6 of text librarya" >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDEF. >> TLB;2 >>K >>     u_char  rhdr_authOK;         /* TRUE if the pkt was authenticated */a >> ....^? >> %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier. 3 >> at line number 460 in module IN6 of text libraryr" >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDEF. >> TLB;2 >>' >>     typedef u_char * __u_char_ptr32;i >> ...................^a >> %CC-E-NOSEMI, Missing ";". 5 >> at line number 57 in module RESOLV of text library   >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDE
 >> F.TLB;2 >>J >>         u_long  options;                /* option flags - see below. */ >> ........^? >> %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.x6 >> at line number 105 in module RESOLV of text library >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLD  >> EF.TLB;2I >>C >>         u_short id;                     /* current message id */o >> ........^? >> %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier. 6 >> at line number 110 in module RESOLV of text library >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDa >> EF.TLB;2- >>L >>         u_long  pfcode;                 /* RES_PRF_ flags - see below. */ >> ........^? >> %CC-E-MISSINGTYPE, Missing type specifier or type qualifier.56 >> at line number 113 in module RESOLV of text library >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLD  >> EF.TLB;2  >>K >> __u_char_ptr32  p_cdnname (const u_char *, const u_char *, int, FILE *);7 >> ................^ >> %CC-E-NOSEMI, Missing ";". 6 >> at line number 289 in module RESOLV of text library >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDd >> EF.TLB;2e >>, >> __char_ptr32    p_option (u_long option); >> ..........................^I >> %CC-E-BADPARSEPARAM, In this parameter list, "u_long" must either be ai >typec >> or mA >> ust be followed by a ",".6 >> at line number 294 in module RESOLV of text library >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDl >> EF.TLB;2f >>' >> u_int           res_randomid (void);- >> ................^ >> %CC-E-NOSEMI, Missing ";".a6 >> at line number 302 in module RESOLV of text library >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLDo >> EF.TLB;2e >>J >> ns_updrec *     res_mkupdrec (int, const char *, u_int, u_int, u_long);5 >> .................................................^ 5 >> %CC-E-PARMTYPLIST, Ill-formed parameter type list.u6 >> at line number 319 in module RESOLV of text library >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLD> >> EF.TLB;2  >>> >>          {strncpy(buffer, s, size-1); buffer[size-1]='\0';}
 >> .........^  >> %CC-E-NOSEMI, Missing ";".  >> at line number 210 in filel8 >> DKA0:[DATA.FRANCISCO.PINE.PINE-3-91-BETA8.IMAP.ANSI.C >> -CLIENT]TCP_VMS.C;2 >> >>        else >> .......^e$ >> %CC-E-BADSTMT, Invalid statement. >> at line number 211 in filec8 >> DKA0:[DATA.FRANCISCO.PINE.PINE-3-91-BETA8.IMAP.ANSI.C >> -CLIENT]TCP_VMS.C;2 >>) >> __char_ptr32    p_secstodate (u_long);. >> ................^D >> %CC-W-FUNCIDLIS, In the declaration of "p_secstodate", a function >declarator  >> hasL >>  an identifier list but is not part of a function definition.  Extraneous	 >> parame- >> ter names are ignored. 6 >> at line number 295 in module RESOLV of text library >> SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$RTLD: >> EF.TLB;2R >> >> THANK YOU >>0 >> "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote in message3 >> news:akqc73$1kgkh0$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de...IM >> > Why don't you read the vmsbuild.com file? If that procedure compiles andxJ >> > links something then the target directory must be known, at least the >name  >> > of the .EXE file./ >> > Check for logical names  ( sho log *PINE*)o> >> > "Francisco Ortega" <fortega@iblues.cc> schreef in berichtA >> > news:v7Qb9.108090$%v4.5604301@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com... 
 >> > > Hi,K >> > >      I'm trying to install pine but with no luck. I download it fromE >theI >> > > freeware site at montagar.com and then I transfer the file into myi >alphaH >> > > 255. I'm currently running OpenVms 7.2. After uncompressing it, I
 >> realize >> > IM >> > > need it C (CC) so I installed it on the alpha. Well, the thing is thatm
 >> > afterI >> > > reading the aaareadme.txt I have not been able to figure it out. I! >have K >> > > create it a production folder but everytime that I run vmsbuild from  >theJ >> > > root of the folder or from [.pine] or [.pico], it does not generate >anyJ >> > > *pine*.exe files, furthermore, in the PINE folder, I don't even see >any >> > exeK >> > > file . I see that compiles fine but I can't find them. I look in alli >mys	 >> > DKA0tJ >> > > . Can someone please tell me an easy way to install PINE. Thank you >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> >c   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:31:34 -0400* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>> Subject: Heterogenous Clusters and Shadowsets for system disks5 Message-ID: <fPod9.10295$H67.54007@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>2   Hi  + I have a cluster with 2 Alphas and 2 VAXes.   H The Alphas boot on DSA10 (DUA2 and DUA13 together). The shadow is formed, automatically when one of the machines boot.   Now the VAXes don;t wee DSA10e $ sh dev dsa10- %SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device availablen  I But they do see the 2 disks that make up DSA10. So I tried mounting DSA10e fro one VAXi   $ sh  dev dua2  L Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans MntlL  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count Cnt F $1$DUA2:      (HSJ401)  Online               0  (remote shadow member) $ sh  dev dua13O  L Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans Mnt-L  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count Cnt.F $1$DUA13:     (HSJ400)  Online               0  (remote shadow member)1 $ mount dsa10 /shad=($1$DUA2:,$1$DUA13:) ALPHAVMS>* %MOUNT-I-OPRQST, device is already mounted> %MOUNT-I-OPRQST, device _DSA10: is not available for mounting.    I Can someone explains with it says "device is already mounted" and sends aa request to the operator?
 Because after  *Interrupt*n- %MOUNT-I-OPRQSTCAN, operator request cancelede4 The drive is indeed successfully mounted onm the VAX $ sh dev dsa10  L Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans Mnt L  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count Cntr> DSA10:                  Mounted              0  (remote mount) 3e (does not show the members)f  	 And then:o $ dir dsa10:[0,0]a9 %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening DSA10:[0,0]*.*;* as inpute9 -RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailablei   I'm just confused.L I can't do a MOUNT/CLUSTER on the system disk so I have to mount it manually on the VAXes- There must be something I do wrong, but what?h   Alpha OpenVMS 7.2-1n VAX OpenVMS 7.2 ) The SH DEV DSA10 on the Alpha gives this: L Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans MnthL  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count Cnt.L DSA10:                  Mounted              0  ALPHAVMS       3285954   583 3nB $1$DUA2:      (HSJ401)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA10:)B $1$DUA13:     (HSJ400)  ShadowSetMember      8  (member of DSA10:)   Thanks!L --   SyltremtI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)r8 To reply to myself directly, remove zulu from my address   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:17:53 -0700b5 From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <My-Full-Name@intel.com>eB Subject: Re: Heterogenous Clusters and Shadowsets for system disks) Message-ID: <3D764041.37758A7B@intel.com>i   Syltrem wrote:   > Hi >f- > I have a cluster with 2 Alphas and 2 VAXes.w >oJ > The Alphas boot on DSA10 (DUA2 and DUA13 together). The shadow is formed. > automatically when one of the machines boot. >h > Now the VAXes don;t wee DSA10d > $ sh dev dsa10/ > %SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available  >rK > But they do see the 2 disks that make up DSA10. So I tried mounting DSA10-
 > fro one VAX, >  > $ sh  dev dua2 >0N > Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans > Mnt N >  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count > Cnt H > $1$DUA2:      (HSJ401)  Online               0  (remote shadow member) > $ sh  dev dua13  >sN > Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans > MntaN >  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count > Cnt H > $1$DUA13:     (HSJ400)  Online               0  (remote shadow member)3 > $ mount dsa10 /shad=($1$DUA2:,$1$DUA13:) ALPHAVMSe      ^^^^^  > Make this: $ mount /SYSTEM /shad=($1$DUA2:,$1$DUA13:) ALPHAVMS                    ^^^^^^^A and you'll be a lot happier.  You've inadvertantly tried to mount ? the shadow set _private_ which isn't allowed since it's alreadyn+ mounted (/system) elsewhere in the cluster.t   >t, > %MOUNT-I-OPRQST, device is already mounted@ > %MOUNT-I-OPRQST, device _DSA10: is not available for mounting.   [...]i    D     By the way, I usually prefer to add /INCLUDE/NOCOPY to automaticC shadow set mounts, and /CONFIRM to interactive ones, to avoid doing-A untold damage if the two members are in sync.  With /INCLUDE, you E need only specify one member; the other will be mounted automatically  if it's a valid member.P       -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield=! D1C Automation VMS System Support= kenneth.h.fairfield#intel.comd   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:56:51 +0200( From: "Libsur1" <dargacha.sable@free.fr>8 Subject: How to change an IP printer queue configuration, Message-ID: <al4eap$2usd$1@news6.isdnet.net>  
     Hello,  K     After having to change an IP adresse on a network printer, I would liker> to modify the printer queue to reflect the             change.J     I have looked in the montain of VMS doc but I was not able to find the	 solution..H     At this time the only modification that I have done is to modify theK Host file by using UCX. But it's not for shure                 enought ;-).h3     If will be great if some one having a solution.        By advance thank you.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:34:46 +0200n9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>,< Subject: Re: How to change an IP printer queue configuration' Message-ID: <3D75C5A6.C9DAA6FA@aaa.com>u   Not enugh information. Send SHO QUE/FULL <que>w   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    Libsur1 wrote: >  >     Hello, > M >     After having to change an IP adresse on a network printer, I would like @ > to modify the printer queue to reflect the             change.L >     I have looked in the montain of VMS doc but I was not able to find the > solution.rJ >     At this time the only modification that I have done is to modify theM > Host file by using UCX. But it's not for shure                 enought ;-).r5 >     If will be great if some one having a solution.t >  >     By advance thank you.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:20:15 +0200( From: "Libsur1" <dargacha.sable@free.fr>< Subject: Re: How to change an IP printer queue configuration+ Message-ID: <al4q83$se8$1@news5.isdnet.net>t  , Here is the result of the Sh Queue command :   DV>sh queue SR1S04$SDOC03 /FULLrC Server queue SR1S04$SDOC03, idle, on SR1S04::, mounted form DEFAULTi= /BASE_PRIORITY=4 /DEFAULT=(FEED,FORM=DEFAULT) /OWNER=[SYSTEM]tB /PROCESSOR=UCX$LPD_SMB /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S) /RETAIN=ERROR  7 Hope it will be more helpfull than my last explanation.e  
 Thank's a lot.          : Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> a crit dans le message : 3D75C5A6.C9DAA6FA@aaa.com... > Not enugh information. > Send SHO QUE/FULL <que>i >o > Jan-Erik Sderholm.| >t > Libsur1 wrote: > >g > >     Hello, > > J > >     After having to change an IP adresse on a network printer, I would likeB > > to modify the printer queue to reflect the             change.J > >     I have looked in the montain of VMS doc but I was not able to find the-
 > > solution.-L > >     At this time the only modification that I have done is to modify theJ > > Host file by using UCX. But it's not for shure                 enought ;-).7 > >     If will be great if some one having a solution.. > >" > >     By advance thank you.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 13:29:01 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>t< Subject: Re: How to change an IP printer queue configuration' Message-ID: <3D75EE7D.C82370F1@aaa.com>    OK.  So it's a LPD queue, fine.  + Then the host definition should be in your e" [TCPIP|UCX]$LPD_PRINTCAP.DAT file.  : If you have entered the host as an IP address in the file, you have to update the file.  : If you have entered the host as a "host name" in the file,< it should be enugh to either update your local host database/ or (if in use) your configured DSN environment.t  1 The queue itself don't have to be changed at all.e2 Maybe a stop/start to re-read to PRINTCAP file (if7 mofifyed), but otherwise your IP network should resolvep the new address of the printer.i   Jan-Erik Sderholm.K   Libsur1 wrote: > . > Here is the result of the Sh Queue command : > ! > DV>sh queue SR1S04$SDOC03 /FULLlE > Server queue SR1S04$SDOC03, idle, on SR1S04::, mounted form DEFAULTe? > /BASE_PRIORITY=4 /DEFAULT=(FEED,FORM=DEFAULT) /OWNER=[SYSTEM] D > /PROCESSOR=UCX$LPD_SMB /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S) /RETAIN=ERROR > 9 > Hope it will be more helpfull than my last explanation.i >  > Thank's a lotb >c   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:30:37 +0200( From: "Libsur1" <dargacha.sable@free.fr>< Subject: Re: How to change an IP printer queue configuration+ Message-ID: <al4uc2$vh8$1@news5.isdnet.net>e  B Thank you very mutch for the information, I'm going to try it now.  
 Thank's AgainC      : Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> a crit dans le message : 3D75EE7D.C82370F1@aaa.com... > OK.I > So it's a LPD queue, fine. >M, > Then the host definition should be in your$ > [TCPIP|UCX]$LPD_PRINTCAP.DAT file. >3< > If you have entered the host as an IP address in the file, > you have to update the file. >K< > If you have entered the host as a "host name" in the file,> > it should be enugh to either update your local host database1 > or (if in use) your configured DSN environment.> > 3 > The queue itself don't have to be changed at all.I4 > Maybe a stop/start to re-read to PRINTCAP file (if9 > mofifyed), but otherwise your IP network should resolveo! > the new address of the printer.I >E > Jan-Erik Sderholm.I >I > Libsur1 wrote: > >i0 > > Here is the result of the Sh Queue command : > > # > > DV>sh queue SR1S04$SDOC03 /FULLTG > > Server queue SR1S04$SDOC03, idle, on SR1S04::, mounted form DEFAULTCA > > /BASE_PRIORITY=4 /DEFAULT=(FEED,FORM=DEFAULT) /OWNER=[SYSTEM]8F > > /PROCESSOR=UCX$LPD_SMB /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S) /RETAIN=ERROR > >N; > > Hope it will be more helpfull than my last explanation._ > >D > > Thank's a lotI > >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 21:08:41 -0000n- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)>7 Subject: Re: HP earnings - how did the VMS business do?y5 Message-ID: <927EA2274warrenspencer1977@216.168.3.30>t  2 terryshannon@attbi.com (Terry C. Shannon) wrote in# <J0wb9.122634$aA.26674@sccrnsc02>: o  B >Not being an HP beancounter or director, hell no! But things lookI >squatulent in the BCS space, don't they? Not surprising, if for no otheroH >reason than the fact that any HPQ competitor has an easy marketing job:% >visit comp.os.vms and cut and paste.s  
 -- snip --  G Puhleeze!  Muzzle (largely) legitimate criticism?  A little root-cause  I analysis might help here... why are people b*tching?  If HP/Compaq wants .G better "spectator-press", they'll have to earn it through their deeds. S& Integrity counts to those who have it.   ws   -- f   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)> The Associated Press  < ** Time flies like an arrow.  Fruit flies like a bananna. **   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:35:51 +01002U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>M+ Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothlya0 Message-ID: <al2ofj$3av$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:S  * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > - >>At the same time Sun's revenues went up. Itt. >>does not take an economic genius to work out. >>that if one vendor is increasing revenue and. >>one is losing revenues and they both operate. >>in the same market then the second vendor is# >>losing market share to the first._ >> > I > TO be fair, one has to look over a longer term. What if Sun has a "timeeN > delayed" effect and will start to drop revenus next quarter while HP started > already ?>M > (or the opposite, with sun having started to grow revenus again, and HP not> > yet but will follow shortly).  >      Quite.  + But then lets look at the facts. Freddy boy0) is trying hard to judge Sun on what is inC  effect 2-3 quarters of business.  , HP on the other hand entered into the merger* in a pretty poor state, the re-structuring/ that Carly had been brought in to drive through + was either not complete of the effects wered
 not apparent.e  + A lead article in Business Week at the time>/ attacked the performance of the management team 1 and went as far as to suggest that the merger was., a smoke screen to hide the structural issues0 in HP. It went on to point out that one business1 unit in HP (printing and imaging) was responsibleI! for HP's continued profitability._  - Compaq was in an even worse state as we know._  0 Since the merger announcement and the subsequent/ first stages of the merger little seems to haven/ changed, printing is still the thing that keepsS- the enterprise ticking and the other BU's are31 either having their margins squeezed by competion., from the likes of IBM GS or are bleeding red, as in the unit that provides OpenVMS and the platforms it runs on.   . Now of course there may well be a turn arround, in the Enterprise BU but that isn't apparent, at the moment. In addition the fact that Sun) has had 2-3 bad quarters should be offset.+ against that fact that for the previous 4-5i& years Sun had even without the dot.com) business was eating into HP's UNIX server>. business. Hence the origional HP restructuring. which as I said earlier many analysts consider to be unfinished business.  / I advise a customer who was one of HP's largesto- retail accounts in Europe, its now a Sun shop1, and yes we do have their dot.com platform as) well but thats only a small proportion of> the Sun estate in the account.  ( Prior to the it was a Seibel CRM project) consolidating HP and Sun Seibel instancese	 onto Sun.   ) Before that I worked on a banking project-* which was the same, HP shop moving to Sun.  ' I have heard of people moving the otherE- way but its a small minority and the accounts ' that I am talking about here are anuityE	 business.B   RegardsN Andrew HarrisonT   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:24:08 GMT.5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>c+ Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly>2 Message-ID: <Ye6d9.29$iD5.698498@news.cpqcorp.net>  6 Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message ... > , >But then lets look at the facts. Freddy boy* >is trying hard to judge Sun on what is in! >effect 2-3 quarters of business.> >>  F Geeze Andy.  I go away for 5 days of vacation, and you're still at it.J We're *all* judged by how good or bad our last quarter was, as well as theG "suprise" factor in it.  I don't like it, and I'm not quite sure I knowcK anyone that does.  But our investors tend to be mutual funds and others whofE look at it as an investment vehicle.  Few of them are noted for theiri$ patience, or their long term vision.  H So.  Why don't we just agree here - Sun employee likes Sun.  HP employeeH likes HP.  Neither are particularly rooting for the other one, have much< nice to say about the others company, or respect each other.  K I'll even give you the last word.  Come on, call me a name.  Really.  It'llrB make you feel better, since apparently you're off your meds again.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 14:14:55 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>f+ Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothlyp, Message-ID: <3D74FC1C.9E80C2E6@videotron.ca>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:. > HP on the other hand entered into the merger, > in a pretty poor state, the re-structuring1 > that Carly had been brought in to drive throughe- > was either not complete of the effects werec > not apparent.     L Carly wasn't restructuring, she was reshaping her company into a good WintelK terrier company that would obey Intel and Microsoft's every wish. SomethingcN happened during the merger to force Carly to tone down her love for everythingI wintel. (Although some of their curtrent "enterprise" ads do use the termSK "industry standard" which means "wintel" to customers (IA64 is NOT industry.$ standard no matter what Carly says).  3 > and went as far as to suggest that the merger wasa. > a smoke screen to hide the structural issues > in HP.  H Agreed. Carly was under fire for not fixing HP's problems and the mergerA essentially gave her another 2 years at the job to prove herself.e    + > It went on to point out that one businesst3 > unit in HP (printing and imaging) was responsible # > for HP's continued profitability.r    K One has to be careful with this. Remember that Compaq made damned sure thatuL nobody knew what really generated the profits and tried very hard to make itK look like wintel servers were what were driving the company when in fact it L was the very products Compaq didn't want that generated the profits. Perhaps the same is happening at HP.  N HOWEVER, Compaq had to decide not to kill VMS because they needed the money toN subsidize their wintel business. But if HP makes enough money with its printerL business to subsidize the wintel business, then HP may not feel such a slaveN to the profits from VMS, Alpha and Tru64. Fact is that Alpha is gone and Tru64	 is going.d    J As far as the merger process itself, I think it is too early to tell. I amM less concerned about the mechanics of merging the two companies and much moredN concerned about how customers view the way HP is handling the products, how HP, handles Compaq's broken commitments etc etc.  L HP may have inherited the customer lists from Digital. But that doesn't makeL the loyal Digital customers instantly loyal HP customers. They may be forcedI to do business with HP because that is who owns VMS, but they need not benL loyal to HP. I never chose to be a Compaq customer, but that was forced ontoN me and I never had one bity of loyalty towards that wintel company that should? have never been allowed to inherit something as serious as VMS.e  C If HP wants me as a loyal customer, it will have to work to gain my M confidence. Buying the customer list from Digital/Compaq isn't enough. And so I far, HP has done everything WRONG to gain my loyalty, starting with CarlytG actively voiding mention of "VMS" during the merger pregnancy, and only M mentioning VMS in a one line that says nothing when she finally gave birth onHN may 7th. Then came Stallard's infamous memo that said HP expects VMS customersM to migrate to Unix. They may have tones down the negative rethoric since, butsH they haven't fixed the damage. HP is a long long way towards gaining the  confidence of its new customers.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:20:16 -0700:& From: Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com>+ Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothlyt/ Message-ID: <un9vbkepopnsc5@corp.supernews.com>s   JF Mezei wrote:4* > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > . >>HP on the other hand entered into the merger, >>in a pretty poor state, the re-structuring1 >>that Carly had been brought in to drive throughi- >>was either not complete of the effects were  >>not apparent.e >  >  > N > Carly wasn't restructuring, she was reshaping her company into a good WintelM > terrier company that would obey Intel and Microsoft's every wish. SomethingAP > happened during the merger to force Carly to tone down her love for everything
 > wintel.   + This is of course speculation on your part.   * I think what Andrew is referring to is theD "customer-facing"/"product-development" restructuring that Carly putE into effect early on, where there were two major organizations within D the company - one to develop products, and one to face the customer.C Previously each product division had its own customer-facing group.tG There was an article in Business Week or Fortune (can't remember which)wI at the time (mid-2001) discussing Carly's "experiment" (their words) with J this structure, saying that it was the largest attempt at making this typeH of structure work to date. You will note that post-merger this structure no longer exists.d   -- _
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:17:32 -0400R- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>S+ Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothlyn, Message-ID: <3D750AC5.7ED641E7@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:J > So.  Why don't we just agree here - Sun employee likes Sun.  HP employee > likes HP.     ? But do ex Digital employees really have any allegiance to HP ? o  L I remember the pride that digital employees had in the 1980s. I remember theH party Digital employees had at a local office the afternoon a much hatedM manager who had done so many cutbacks was fired. And I remember how publicly,iK the Digital employees had to smile etc, but in private, how much they hated5I Bob GQ, and of course, the constant fear of being downsized out of a job.e  M How do the Digital employees feel about working for Carly ? Do they see it as K a huge challenge to try to convice Carly to take VMS serously, or have many,L resigned themselves that it is just a job and they will just do their job asG well as they can and not bother fighting to change the attitudes of thet
 corporation ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 11:42:59 +0100oU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> + Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly 0 Message-ID: <al4o5v$mr5$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  8 > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message ... > - >>But then lets look at the facts. Freddy boye+ >>is trying hard to judge Sun on what is inD" >>effect 2-3 quarters of business. >> >> > H > Geeze Andy.  I go away for 5 days of vacation, and you're still at it.L > We're *all* judged by how good or bad our last quarter was, as well as theI > "suprise" factor in it.  I don't like it, and I'm not quite sure I know M > anyone that does.  But our investors tend to be mutual funds and others whobG > look at it as an investment vehicle.  Few of them are noted for theira& > patience, or their long term vision. > J > So.  Why don't we just agree here - Sun employee likes Sun.  HP employeeJ > likes HP.  Neither are particularly rooting for the other one, have much> > nice to say about the others company, or respect each other. > M > I'll even give you the last word.  Come on, call me a name.  Really.  It'lleD > make you feel better, since apparently you're off your meds again. >  >     0 I am confused, before going on your vacation you/ were convinced of the strength of your case and1 the weakness of mine.1  1 What happened on your travels did you decide thatL. peace should break out or did you reflect that  your case wasn't exactly strong.  1 Its just so out of character, you normally pursuef/ an argument to the point where you have clearly , lost and then sulk for a week. This is a new approach hence my cynicism.5     Regardsa Andrew Harrisonn   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 14:15:10 GMT 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> + Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothlye2 Message-ID: <Ozod9.29$nz6.365654@news.cpqcorp.net>  6 Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message ... >l >e >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:o >u9 >> Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message ...t >>. >>>But then lets look at the facts. Freddy boy, >>>is trying hard to judge Sun on what is in# >>>effect 2-3 quarters of business.o >>>  >>>  >>I >> Geeze Andy.  I go away for 5 days of vacation, and you're still at it.nI >> We're *all* judged by how good or bad our last quarter was, as well as1 the0J >> "suprise" factor in it.  I don't like it, and I'm not quite sure I knowJ >> anyone that does.  But our investors tend to be mutual funds and others who3H >> look at it as an investment vehicle.  Few of them are noted for their' >> patience, or their long term vision._ >>K >> So.  Why don't we just agree here - Sun employee likes Sun.  HP employee K >> likes HP.  Neither are particularly rooting for the other one, have much ? >> nice to say about the others company, or respect each other.  >>G >> I'll even give you the last word.  Come on, call me a name.  Really.f It'llhE >> make you feel better, since apparently you're off your meds again.i >> >> >i >d1 >I am confused, before going on your vacation youh0 >were convinced of the strength of your case and >the weakness of mine. > 2 >What happened on your travels did you decide that/ >peace should break out or did you reflect thate! >your case wasn't exactly strong.m >t2 >Its just so out of character, you normally pursue0 >an argument to the point where you have clearly- >lost and then sulk for a week. This is a newR >approach hence my cynicism. >l  F Andy, believe it or not, I actually do have a job - and this isn't it.H Spending time fencing with you either takes time away from my job, or myK personal life - for no real benefit to either.  My apparent "sulking" is annI illusion of your usenet-tinted world view... in reality, it usually meansmI that I have not had time to do much more than skim this conference - if I L read it at all.  Besides, the discussion had at last reached the point whereH you start calling names and changing the subject - which means that it'sK been over for a long time.   Over time it is apparent that you need to havehH the last word.  Usually by that time everyone (including me) is tired of" listening to the two of us bicker.  L I don't have to defend my case to you forever, time and the market will tellI who was right, wrong or lucky.  The market took a big hit here yesterday, L and SUN stock is right now around 50 cents over book value (just as a littleI dig).  We can resume this "discussion" in say, another year and see wherek things are.v  I So with that last paragraph as a target for you...  Take a last poke, ands move on.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 14:04:00 GMT 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>C+ Subject: Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly 2 Message-ID: <kpod9.26$3y6.335981@news.cpqcorp.net>  = JF Mezei wrote in message <3D750AC5.7ED641E7@videotron.ca>...: >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:NK >> So.  Why don't we just agree here - Sun employee likes Sun.  HP employeen >> likes HP. >  >-? >But do ex Digital employees really have any allegiance to HP ?0 >n  K I think that old DEC employees will always have an affinity for DEC and forwJ Ken.  I don't think this really has any bearing on who we may all work forK now.  I know a lot of ex-DEC people at HP, Sun, Microsoft, Intel, and a lotAK of other large and small companies.  I suppose the only sentimental "enemy"t complany (was) Data General ;-)B  I >I remember the pride that digital employees had in the 1980s. I remember  theaI >party Digital employees had at a local office the afternoon a much hateddD >manager who had done so many cutbacks was fired. And I remember how	 publicly,tL >the Digital employees had to smile etc, but in private, how much they hatedJ >Bob GQ, and of course, the constant fear of being downsized out of a job. >   I And your point?  I don't think anybody likes layoffs.  I'm not quite surecF I've ever been in a situation where the employees were happy about theE layoff of a manager because he/she had been forced to lay people off.-G Usually when we're happy about a manager being let go - it's because herK should have been fired to begin with.  Our group in the past has been given L headcount budget, and had to lay people off - it is pretty hard on a managerH when he has to wreck the lives of people that work for him, who are hardK workers, and who he personally likes.  I've seen one or two volunteer to be  layed off instead.  K >How do the Digital employees feel about working for Carly ? Do they see ite asL >a huge challenge to try to convice Carly to take VMS serously, or have manyJ >resigned themselves that it is just a job and they will just do their job asH >well as they can and not bother fighting to change the attitudes of the >corporation ?  L Yes.  There are people who are just happy to pick up a paycheck, and want toG just hold on for the next N years until they can retire.  And there are H people who look at this as an opportunity.  But that has ALWAYS been theL case.  "Carly" doesn't really factor into the equation.  The challenge is toJ make the company take VMS seriously from the ground up.  The only way thisI can happen is for us (engineering) to execute to plan, and for us to holdlK onto our customer base, and grow it as the economy turns around.  We *have*tG seen customers dumping NT (for example) to return to VMS -- after being J burned by virus attacks (again for example).  There is hope here.  We *do*L have a plan.  And HP management - to their credit - is giving us a chance toK prove we can do it.  Everyone I have spoken to in HP classic engineering isqJ actually enthusiastic about getting VMS into the mainstream (read IPF) and selling it.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:19:36 +0200s9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>o@ Subject: Re: Humm, I am getting confused between a PDP and a Vax' Message-ID: <3D746288.8136D44D@aaa.com>g   Yes, It is.  Sorry for the miss-information.e I will not happen again...   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    danco@ns2.pebble.org wrote:E > C > In article <3D730CFC.135303D5@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:  > ? > > The VAX 11/xxx models was, more or less, a PDP-11 processorcC > > with some "Virtual Adress eXtensions" hardware added. That way, = > > the VAX 11/xxx could run PDP-11 images. Later VAX modells 7 > > was built on hardware without the PDP-11 processor.a > @ > The first VAX processors included a PDP-11 compatibility mode.? > Other than that point, all of the above is totally incorrect.S >  > - Dan    ------------------------------  . Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:16:42 +0200 (MET DST)& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>0 Subject: IBM did it, Sun did it, why Compaq not?6 Message-ID: <200209040616.IAA19423@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  B if we do have a look at hte applications under IBM's and Sun's OS,D we will see a lot of application written by other vendors. The trickD was to see good products and to sold for an implementation under itsE own OS, or to buy the vendor. In case of this, both could say: If youaC buy our OS, you will get this application for free or small budget.gD Also the buyer could be sure that the application will be developpedF for a long term. I could not see, that Compaq (rep. DEC) did the same.B In the early days, SAP did run under VMS. Also was a statement forB the OpenInventor application. But Compaq did not pay for that. TheA SVPs did not see the potential number of users. The did only heary? VMS is dead. Why did Compaq not buy StarOffice? I know that's a E hypothetical question. Also why did they not give Legato, Veritas ...t@ monye to port there (killer) application to OpenVMS? I think, in@ case of not knowing the power of OpenVMS. IMHO HP do not see the" potential and poer of OpenVMS too.9 My hope is, that this forum is able to chnage there mind.e   Best regards Rudolf Wingert    P.S. May HP will do it!?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:17:09 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>b4 Subject: Re: IBM did it, Sun did it, why Compaq not?8 Message-ID: <jcibnuss2rl4lo2j0kjk1dd373bg2o930k@4ax.com>  ; On Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:16:42 +0200 (MET DST), Rudolf Wingertf <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote:    C >In the early days, SAP did run under VMS. Also was a statement formC >the OpenInventor application. But Compaq did not pay for that. TherB >SVPs did not see the potential number of users. The did only hear@ >VMS is dead. Why did Compaq not buy StarOffice? I know that's aF >hypothetical question. Also why did they not give Legato, Veritas ...A >monye to port there (killer) application to OpenVMS? I think, incA >case of not knowing the power of OpenVMS. IMHO HP do not see thes# >potential and poer of OpenVMS too.p: >My hope is, that this forum is able to chnage there mind.  E 1988 there was an accounting/integrated office application called BOSoB which ran on VMS amongst other things. When the company decided toC rewrite it in C to allow them to target Unix and Windows systems asn@ well, DEC provided free (or permanent loan) porting hardware andD software to them and an associated company I worked for at the time.A When we asked for assistance in porting the new C version (aroundsA 1991) back to VMS with the intention of supporting a future AlphalF port, DEC asked us why we wanted to bother as "Alpha was for Unix". WeC got no free (or loan or heavily subsidized) hardware to replace thenF aging MicroVAX 1 the original VMS  code had been done on but *did* getE yet another free multi-processor Wintel box which cost a fortune. TheaD two companies involved drew their own conclusions and the port died.- Repeat until VMS dead. That was DEC's policy.t  F Before anyone jumps up and says you can;t expect to be given the stuffD free, I'll repeat: that;s exactly what DEC then Compaq did with UnixD and Windows on multiple occasions. Let's not forget the Digital thenE Compaq Alpa/NT porting web page which said something like: "You can't.> afford not to port to Alpha/NT because we'll give you loads of  Digital/Compaq's $$$$ to do it"    In plain language:D ISV's WERE  ENCOURAGED TO DROP THE VMS PORT IN FAVOUR OF ALPHA/NT TO? AVOID "CONFUSING THE MARKETPLACE" AND THEY WERE GIVEN FINANCIALl INCENTIVES TO DO SO.  F So when I asked Digtal/Compaq for XYZ feature or port and they repliedC "Costs too much" then I knew they were not really serious about VMSH< compared to WIndows and Unix which they just threw money at.  F "We are betting the future of Digital on Alpha/NT" as a DEC salesdroid
 once told me.s   >Best regards Rudolf Wingert >r >P.S. May HP will do it!?e   One can only hope. -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 08:15:37 +0100o( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>4 Subject: Re: IBM did it, Sun did it, why Compaq not?) Message-ID: <3D75B319.4D14BB27@127.0.0.1>a   Rudolf Wingert wrote:   G > hypothetical question. Also why did they not give Legato, Veritas ...aB > monye to port there (killer) application to OpenVMS? I think, in  G VERITAS Netbackup is on VMS, and is planned for Itanium, I presume thateG is the product you implied. However I think that Veritas have (always?)g  funded their own work into this.   -- a? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencese nclews at csc dot comh   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:59:08 -0400; From: "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>n4 Subject: RE: IBM did it, Sun did it, why Compaq not?K Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E49028BEA62@rlghncst964.usps.gov>m  4 I asked a question very much like that at the recent roadshow- here's a paraphrase:  9 With all the resources being expended to induce software e8 vendors to port their applications to Itanium-based OSs,9 will you also devote some of these resources to woo back l0 some of those vendors who left the VMS platform?  ! The answer I got was affirmative.a   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----. From: "Alan Greig" [mailto:a.greig@virgin.net]+ Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 5:17 AMa To: "Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com" 4 Subject: RE: IBM did it, Sun did it, why Compaq not?    ; On Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:16:42 +0200 (MET DST), Rudolf Wingerts <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote:    C >In the early days, SAP did run under VMS. Also was a statement for C >the OpenInventor application. But Compaq did not pay for that. The B >SVPs did not see the potential number of users. The did only hear@ >VMS is dead. Why did Compaq not buy StarOffice? I know that's aF >hypothetical question. Also why did they not give Legato, Veritas ...A >monye to port there (killer) application to OpenVMS? I think, incA >case of not knowing the power of OpenVMS. IMHO HP do not see then# >potential and poer of OpenVMS too.(: >My hope is, that this forum is able to chnage there mind.  E 1988 there was an accounting/integrated office application called BOSsB which ran on VMS amongst other things. When the company decided toC rewrite it in C to allow them to target Unix and Windows systems as @ well, DEC provided free (or permanent loan) porting hardware andD software to them and an associated company I worked for at the time.A When we asked for assistance in porting the new C version (aroundtA 1991) back to VMS with the intention of supporting a future AlphaeF port, DEC asked us why we wanted to bother as "Alpha was for Unix". WeC got no free (or loan or heavily subsidized) hardware to replace thelF aging MicroVAX 1 the original VMS  code had been done on but *did* getE yet another free multi-processor Wintel box which cost a fortune. ThetD two companies involved drew their own conclusions and the port died.- Repeat until VMS dead. That was DEC's policy.c  F Before anyone jumps up and says you can;t expect to be given the stuffD free, I'll repeat: that;s exactly what DEC then Compaq did with UnixD and Windows on multiple occasions. Let's not forget the Digital thenE Compaq Alpa/NT porting web page which said something like: "You can't > afford not to port to Alpha/NT because we'll give you loads of Digital/Compaq's $$$$ to do it"    In plain language:D ISV's WERE  ENCOURAGED TO DROP THE VMS PORT IN FAVOUR OF ALPHA/NT TO? AVOID "CONFUSING THE MARKETPLACE" AND THEY WERE GIVEN FINANCIAL  INCENTIVES TO DO SO.  F So when I asked Digtal/Compaq for XYZ feature or port and they repliedC "Costs too much" then I knew they were not really serious about VMSD< compared to WIndows and Unix which they just threw money at.  F "We are betting the future of Digital on Alpha/NT" as a DEC salesdroid
 once told me.a   >Best regards Rudolf Wingert >n >P.S. May HP will do it!?    One can only hope. -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 13:21:56 +0100dU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>w4 Subject: Re: IBM did it, Sun did it, why Compaq not?0 Message-ID: <al4tvk$oq9$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rudolf Wingert wrote:n   > Hello, > D > if we do have a look at hte applications under IBM's and Sun's OS,F > we will see a lot of application written by other vendors. The trickF > was to see good products and to sold for an implementation under itsG > own OS, or to buy the vendor. In case of this, both could say: If youuE > buy our OS, you will get this application for free or small budget. F > Also the buyer could be sure that the application will be developpedH > for a long term. I could not see, that Compaq (rep. DEC) did the same.D > In the early days, SAP did run under VMS. Also was a statement forD > the OpenInventor application. But Compaq did not pay for that. TheC > SVPs did not see the potential number of users. The did only heareA > VMS is dead. Why did Compaq not buy StarOffice? I know that's a G > hypothetical question. Also why did they not give Legato, Veritas ...iB > monye to port there (killer) application to OpenVMS? I think, inB > case of not knowing the power of OpenVMS. IMHO HP do not see the$ > potential and poer of OpenVMS too.; > My hope is, that this forum is able to chnage there mind.k >     3 Its pretty clear that Compaq never saw OpenVMS as ae2 desktop OS so buying StarDivision to get an Office1 productivity package for OpenVMS was never likelyr
 to happen.  1 They also havn't put up anyone to my knowledge toe3 port or assist in the port of OpenOffice to OpenVMS>2 so even the relatively minor costs associated with* porting also seem unlikely to materialise.  3 Despite HP's recent deal with Corel as a substitute>- for MS Works they still remain a committed MS - partner/hostage, in the circumstances porting + Offices biggest threat to their non MS OS'se, could be construed as being bad behaviour by. MS. This also explains the use of Corel rather than StarOffice or OpenOffice.  1 SGI for example who do want to sell desktops have  a team involved in the port.  / The StarOffice situation is unlikely to change, / now that HP owns OpenVMS. HP's own OS that doese1 have some pretensions to desktop use, HP-UX isn'to& on the OpenOffice porting list at all.  - Ironically Tru64 which is going to vanish hasc, been ported though not by a HP person if the, ports owners email address is anything to go by.r  / Its worth pointing out the HP were instrumentalm0 in getting SAP to port R3 to UNIX and to abandon. their existing R2 platforms. At one time HP-UX4 was the market leader in terms of R3 implimentations+ it was at the time the first port platfrom.s  / In the circumstances and with money being tighty. it seems unlikely that HP would be prepared to3 pump enough cash into SAP to get them to reconsider 0 OpenVMS as a platform, particularly when HP were1 instrumantal in getting SAP to drop that platformr in the first place.l   Regardsk Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:21:24 GMTo0 From: Paul Winalski <prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com>  Subject: Re: Itanic2 performance8 Message-ID: <oqk9nukcqpkov9t4i0mq604kaefkbbeq9r@4ax.com>  F On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 04:42:49 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:  L >A more interesting question is whether VMS will be able to benefit from theM >HP-UX compiler technology or (not having its own compilers any more) will beaL >stuck using Intel compiler technology.  Though even if HP doesn't share itsI >compiler technology with Intel the former DEC compiler people can likelypF >improve Intel's by the time VMS on Itanic is ready to start shipping.  B The "HP-UX compiler technology" you are talking about is the IntelC compiler.  The Itanium 2 benchmarks in question were produced usinglD Intel's compilers running on HP-UX.  The plan last time I looked was0 for VMS to be "stuck with" this same technology.  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:38:21 -0700n& From: Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com>  Subject: Re: Itanic2 performance/ Message-ID: <un9pce4ncrjq30@corp.supernews.com>-   Paul Winalski wrote:H > On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 04:42:49 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> > wrote: >  > M >>A more interesting question is whether VMS will be able to benefit from the.N >>HP-UX compiler technology or (not having its own compilers any more) will beM >>stuck using Intel compiler technology.  Though even if HP doesn't share its.J >>compiler technology with Intel the former DEC compiler people can likelyG >>improve Intel's by the time VMS on Itanic is ready to start shipping.a >  > D > The "HP-UX compiler technology" you are talking about is the IntelE > compiler.  The Itanium 2 benchmarks in question were produced using F > Intel's compilers running on HP-UX.  The plan last time I looked was2 > for VMS to be "stuck with" this same technology.  H The "HP-UX compiler technology" he is talking about are native compilers; produced by HP to run on HP-UX. Nothing to do with Intel atsE all. Intel produces two Itanium 2 compilers - one for Windows and onen1 for Linux. They do not produce an HP-UX compiler.u   -- t
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 18:21:06 +0100tU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>k  Subject: Re: Itanic2 performance0 Message-ID: <al2r4d$47d$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Paul Winalski wrote:  H > On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 04:42:49 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> > wrote: >  > M >>A more interesting question is whether VMS will be able to benefit from theiN >>HP-UX compiler technology or (not having its own compilers any more) will beM >>stuck using Intel compiler technology.  Though even if HP doesn't share its J >>compiler technology with Intel the former DEC compiler people can likelyG >>improve Intel's by the time VMS on Itanic is ready to start shipping.h >> > D > The "HP-UX compiler technology" you are talking about is the IntelE > compiler.  The Itanium 2 benchmarks in question were produced using F > Intel's compilers running on HP-UX.  The plan last time I looked was2 > for VMS to be "stuck with" this same technology. >     ! That not quite what HP have done.?  7 The SPECint numbers were published using HP's Compilersp on systems running HP-UX.h  3 The SPECfp numbers were done using Intels Compilers  running on a Linux OE.  / It would be interesting to see the numbers that + HP's compilers get on FP and Intels on Int.r  / More interesting again would be the performancec. without feedback directed optimisation enabled. since very few ISV's use this type of compiler feature.   Regardsa Andrew Harrisonh   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:08:44 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Itanic2 performanceC Message-ID: <0N7d9.390152$m91.15361351@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>e  # "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"m> <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message* news:al2r4d$47d$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...   ...n  1 > It would be interesting to see the numbers thatn- > HP's compilers get on FP and Intels on Int.   J The latter (619 base) is what I just cited.  And the former (1176 base) is% also specified in the same reference.?   >a1 > More interesting again would be the performanced0 > without feedback directed optimisation enabled0 > since very few ISV's use this type of compiler
 > feature.  G Haven't found those numbers, and don't really expect to (unless someonee external makes some runs).   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:15:41 GMTm* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Itanic2 performanceC Message-ID: <xT7d9.396977$2p2.16288792@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>P  ? "Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in messageh% news:3D7480B2.6748B852@mediasec.de...A > > And the new 1.25 GHz AlphaH > > released last month rates 1327 SPECfp2K_peak (no base figure given), >rK > What is the source of this information? AFAIK, this is not allowed by the0L > SPEC CPU2000 run rules: you can quote base without peak, or claim the baseG > value as the peak value, but you're not allowed to quote a peak value3 withouto > its base value.,   The first place I saw it was atlI http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/a-chart2.html#es45 , which I cited in an* comp.arch post on 8/28.  IIRC it's also in8 http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/download/es45_ts.pdf .   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 23:29:19 GMTo* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Itanic2 performanceC Message-ID: <jBbd9.278055$Aw4.11666751@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>u  = "Paul Winalski" <prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com> wrote in messagey2 news:trbanus9r4nbmnvuas8tc4lqp5k1tasg1p@4ax.com...A > Turns out I was wrong--it **was** HP's compiler.  My apologies.  >s= > But the performance increase vs. Itanium 2 Linux comes from : > the fact that the specINT benchmarks on HP-UX were builtB > using 32-bit pointers (ILP32).  This reduces the size of various: > data structures in the benchmarks and is worth about 15%; > additional performance on specINT.  Itanium Linus doesn'tO: > support a ILP32 execution environment, hence you see the> > 64-bit pointer specINT values there, which will be about 15%0 > slower, regardless of whose compilers you use. > > > VMS uses 32-bit pointers by default and hence should benefit > from the ILP32 speedup.<  K Ah - but does Tru64 (which was used for the most recent SPECint2K results)?s  I A quick look at the SPEC submission for the 1.25 GHz Alpha that turned in:K the 845 SPECint2K_base result seems to suggest (to one decidedly unfamiliar L with the compiler switches, though ISTR the 'taso' switch being mentioned inK the past in this context) that while 32-bit pointers were used for at leasto= some of the peak tests, they weren't used for the base tests.i  J Does this mean that an apples-to-apples base-performance comparison of theL new Alpha with the (also new) Itanic2 should either use something like a 972K 'equivalent' base number for Alpha (15% greater than 845, as you suggest it E would be using 32-bit pointers) or a 705 'equivalent' base number fortD McKinley (13% less than 810, as you suggest it would be using 64-bit
 pointers)?  D However, if indeed 32-bit pointers weren't used for the Alpha's baseL results, the fact that the peak results were only about 10% higher does call4 the 15% differential you suggest into some question.  ' Just trying to understand a bit better,a   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 13:48:07 +0200iE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>e  Subject: Re: Itanic2 performance+ Message-ID: <3D75F2F7.C2633BF3@mediasec.de>o  F > However, if indeed 32-bit pointers weren't used for the Alpha's baseN > results, the fact that the peak results were only about 10% higher does call6 > the 15% differential you suggest into some question.  F The 15% difference might be specific to Itanium. For Alpha, I rememberH John Henning saying that it makes a difference of about 5% averaged over all of SPEC CPU2000.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 14:33:23 +0200;E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>c  Subject: Re: Itanic2 performance+ Message-ID: <3D75FD93.15972BA1@mediasec.de>c  M > > What is the source of this information? AFAIK, this is not allowed by thegN > > SPEC CPU2000 run rules: you can quote base without peak, or claim the baseI > > value as the peak value, but you're not allowed to quote a peak valueU > > without its base value.Y > ! > The first place I saw it was atO7 > http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/a-chart2.html#es45 p  F Tut tut. They don't say whether it's base or peak, and IIRC not sayingI anything is supposed to imply base - but the comparison number is clearlyaG peak. And of course they should link the numbers to the SPEC disclosureo( and not to some Compaq marketing thingo.  C Technically, the improvement seems to be substantially larger than nG the clock rate improvement: 928 vs 849 from scaling (8.5% improvement) 0B for INT and 1327 vs 1200 (9.5%) for FP. Dunno how much the doubledE L3 cache (16 MB vs 8 MB) and the improved (incidentally, how?) memory1 interface contribute.o   	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 17:04:50 GMT 0 From: Paul Winalski <prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com>  Subject: Re: Itanic2 performance8 Message-ID: <g0fcnu0sh05gfv2qhuskf8cbf9tf2shtlk@4ax.com>  F On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 23:29:19 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:   >r> >"Paul Winalski" <prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com> wrote in message3 >news:trbanus9r4nbmnvuas8tc4lqp5k1tasg1p@4ax.com...h >>? >> VMS uses 32-bit pointers by default and hence should benefit- >> from the ILP32 speedup. >lL >Ah - but does Tru64 (which was used for the most recent SPECint2K results)?  F Not by default, although it does have a 32-bit truncated address spaceE option (TASO) available to applications.  The Tru64 compilers use it,  for example.  E >However, if indeed 32-bit pointers weren't used for the Alpha's baseaM >results, the fact that the peak results were only about 10% higher does calle5 >the 15% differential you suggest into some question.s  C That was the number I was quoted by one of our compiler performancee< people.  He may have been speaking SPECint vs. SPECint2K, orB had in mind one specific model of the Alpha, or been talking about: Itanium 2.  I don't know--I just repeated what he told me.  ( >Just trying to understand a bit better,  F Specsmanship is a very confusing area.  It's like EPA milage tests, orC qualifying for the Indy 500--the results come from a highly tweakedmA environment and don't necessarily match what you'll see with your > real-world application.  "Your milage may vary", as the famous disclaimer goes.  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:00:18 -0700,. From: JMK <jeffrey.m.klopotic@lmco.nospam.com>" Subject: Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX/ Message-ID: <3D74F8B2.69351627@lmco.nospam.com>d  	 I concur.n   Jeff   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:03:21 -0700a. From: JMK <jeffrey.m.klopotic@lmco.nospam.com>" Subject: Re: Lint tool for HPQ CXX/ Message-ID: <3D74F969.B5C23619@lmco.nospam.com>   G As a matter of fact, I did try installing the documentation at one timen# in the hopes of being able to RTFM.f   Thanks for the tip.    Jeff  H P.S. The other page is also blank.  But in fairness, I should say that a9 Compaq header appears, but the rest of the page is empty.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 16:14:21 +0100 E From: Jamie Stallwood <this.no.work.try.something.else@project76.net>i% Subject: Looking for a VMS favour.... 8 Message-ID: <1d8cnucmtli8ft5n9bjjvolpc4t973nc06@4ax.com>  A I am bringing my new (old!) VaxStation 3100 to life but it has nom& MACRO so can't transfer anything over.   I would like to install CMU-IPE (http://www.agh.cc.kcl.ac.uk/files/vms/cmu-tcpip/) but have no way of. transferring binary savesets.o  E I have installed VMS_UNSHARE from the HG archive. If anybody can help F by VMS_SHARE'ing the 4 savesets I would be grateful if they could mail me.n   Thnaks Jamie Stallwoodn   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:28:56 -0500< From: "Stanley Reynolds" <nospam_stanley_reynolds@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MATCHC Instructiona< Message-ID: <PNpd9.437$2L.74228@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>  H > > Thanks for the response. The string is indeed longer than what wouldJ > > fit into a word. It will now have to become a subroutine call that can > > accomodate the size issue. >eB > It wouldn't be terribly hard to view your object "string" in 65kB > blocks and iterate those blocks of your "string" over the MATCHCE > instruction <x> number of times for a string of <x> blocks, esp. ifAB > your match string fits within one block.  You could do it with a> > custom .MACRO more than likely, and just replace your MATCHCD > instruction instances with your custom .MACRO (call it BLKMTCHC orC > something like that.)  R0 holds the address at the end of the 65kmD > block (or any block size you choose up to 65k). If you don't get a@ > match on MATCHC, increment your starting object pointer (usingH > register displacement for example) by R0 on no match, and iterate over? > MATCHC again until you get a match or run out of blocks (or apE > sub-block as in the case of the last block short of an even block.)sD > Could conceivably be done with a custom .MACRO I think... (If yourG > match string can be larger than 65k, then this would perhaps be a bitg > of a different story.) >oE > Obviously, you basically have to consider R0-R3 volatile within thei > .MACRO...p >  > Chriso > -----I
 > Chris Olive ! > colive(at)technologEase(dot)com.  G Would this work in the case of a string that crossed a block boundary ?h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 14:53:37 +0200d7 From: Alain Chappuis <Alain.Chappuis@medecine.unige.ch>e" Subject: Mozilla 1.1 burner of CPU& Message-ID: <3d74b092$1@nntp.unige.ch>   Hello folks,  / I just installed the new version of Mozilla 1.1 5 Gecko 2002/08/28 on DEC 3000 M600 with 128 Mg memory.I   Work fine ;-) BUT.../ Mozilla take permanently 25% of CPU in standby.e< In my index.html it is a simple page without animated image.  9 If Colin see my message...should something be undertaken?yF Bus it is impossible to work correctly with the other applications in 
 the system   Thanks in advance.: Ps.: This problem appear in the all version of Mozilla :-(   Alain. -- t:   Alain Chappuis       |         Responsable des serveurs:=   Ingenieur Systeme I  | WEB   : www.medecine facmed sifm ebnsB   Universite de Geneve | E-mail: facmed, mail.medecine, cmu,ebn-ch@   S.I.F.M.             | Phone : ++41 (0)22.702.5073 Int.:25.073@   1, Rue Michel-Servet | FAX   : ++41 (0)22.347.3334 ou 702.5858A   CH-1211 Geneve 4     |   http://ebn.unige.ch/accueil/alain.htmln   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2002 15:55:33 -0600o- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)G& Subject: Re: Mozilla 1.1 burner of CPU3 Message-ID: <t9zgcrCfsLlH@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  ` In article <3d74b092$1@nntp.unige.ch>, Alain Chappuis <Alain.Chappuis@medecine.unige.ch> writes: > ; > If Colin see my message...should something be undertaken? H > Bus it is impossible to work correctly with the other applications in  > the system  F    All versions of mozilla for VMS poll to account for the differencesB    in events from X (via event flags) and events from sockets (viaG    select()).  It's possiblt to do all the sockets via event flags, bute     it's a lot more porting work.  F    There is a parameter somewhere you can set to turn down the polling    rate.  G    Hopefully this will go away when COE gives out with a more expansivee    select().   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:46:44 +0000 (UTC), From: lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)& Subject: Re: Mozilla 1.1 burner of CPU. Message-ID: <al5ddk$dqt$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   Alain Chappuis <Alain.Chappuis@medecine.unige.ch> writes in article <3d74b092$1@nntp.unige.ch> dated Tue, 03 Sep 2002 14:53:37 +0200:20 >I just installed the new version of Mozilla 1.16 >Gecko 2002/08/28 on DEC 3000 M600 with 128 Mg memory. >B >Work fine ;-) BUT...r0 >Mozilla take permanently 25% of CPU in standby.= >In my index.html it is a simple page without animated image.e >e: >If Colin see my message...should something be undertaken?G >Bus it is impossible to work correctly with the other applications in e >the systeme  I I'm running Mozilla 1.1a on a PWS 500au (LOCAL transport), and it doesn'tIH use any CPU when idle unless I move the mouse.  It's using about 130,000, pages, so give yourself a large working set.  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:25:50 +0100eU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>-B Subject: Re: netscape/modzilla/HP/open-source: system requirements0 Message-ID: <al1v98$o7h$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Arne Vajhj wrote:  * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > 3 >>> And please remember that Microsoft JVM is still  >>> at 1.1.4 (from 1997) ! >> >  > ) >> But you don't have to use this. I haver( >> Windows Xp at home and have 1.3.xx on# >> it I could load 1.4 if I wanted.i >  >  >  > I use 1.4. >  > And ?  > 0 > How many of the 100-200 million MSIE users out3 > there do you think that have upgraded their JVM ?I > 1 > For that matter how many of them do know what av
 > JVM is ? >      True.n  , Mind you if they load StarOffice they get an updated JVM rather than 1.1.4.  # The solution to everyones Microsofto woes load StarOffice :-):-)     Regardso   Andrew Harrisonn   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Sep 2002 08:32:50 -0600d- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)c) Subject: Re: Networking with Alpha Server 3 Message-ID: <DcqraF+N8SjT@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <9Xcd9.62548$6m61.12596@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "Yong Liu" <fdu9774@rogers.com> writes:n > Hi,  > K > I am working on hooking up a HP-UX based client to a Open VMS based AlphacG > server. TCP/IP is working on both machines. Can I connect them like I1@ > connect two HP-UX work stations? Since I am concerned with lab9 > implementations, I will appreciate detailed directions.p      Just what do you mean?4  H    If you mean "can I run an ethernet hub and cables between them", yes.  G    If you mean "can I telnet, ftp, exchange mail, share printers, ..., >    between them", yes.  @    If you mean "can I use exactly the same commands to setup X11,    displays between them", the answer is no.         ow       o>       on      So what do you mean?.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 07:57:57 -0700e% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> + Subject: Re: OpenOffice ODBC and Oracle Rdbs) Message-ID: <3D761F75.3610695D@rdrop.com>H   Alder wrote: > H > Anyone here manage to make a successful ODBC connection with an OracleB > Rdb database from the OpenOffice 1.0 or 1.0.1 suite of programs?  H Nope- my experiences are quite similar.  Bummer, because it'd be nice toG start pushing OO to customers as an alternative, but several of them doC) database queries into Excel for analysis.l   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 07:54:15 GMTt# From: NetBoot <netboot@netboot.com>.' Subject: OpenVMS and Hobbyist CDROM Kitm5 Message-ID: <MPG.17de33e69d7e28cb989705@news.ptd.net>r  C How do I get aboard?  Can someone post a link so I can get started?d   Thanks   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:07:55 +0200.9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>-" Subject: Re: OpenVMS documentation' Message-ID: <3D746DDB.8A1A2F1E@aaa.com>r  F The "OpenVMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference Manual"F on teh VMS doc site seems to be froosen at V6 and put in the "archived manuals" group, as you say.i  F But there is a manual called "OpenVMS System Messages: Companion Guide for.H Help Message Users" that is at the V7.3 level. It containes descriptions) for most (or at least a lot of) messages.   ( And "$ HELP /MESSAGE " isn't bad either.   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    Rudolf Wingert wrote:i >  > Hello, > J > yesterday I did get the new one OpenVMS documentation for OpenVMS 7.3-1.D > But since years I do miss the OpenVMS System Messages and RecoveryI > Procedures Reference Manual. The last one I did get is for OpenVMS 6.0.lE > Since this version a lot of messages did change, or are new and not-J > explained within this manual. When will we get a well documented OpenVMSI > again? Or will OpenVMS go the way as UNIX or Windows (every new versions > less documantations).. >   > TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 16:02:24 +01003% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n Subject: OT: Active Directorye8 Message-ID: <6bf9nu87prqhq09bismhe2f0eu1e2j1j4j@4ax.com>  D 've just been running through some of the Microsoft Active DirectoryE documentation in preparation for a corporate seminar on its potentialt? introduction within the company. I find it almost impossible tooD believe that extremely key roles will not automatically fail over to< backup systems but must be manually switched. Even worse theE documentation points out that the original server can only be broughtRB back online (or even into the domain) if the disk is formatted and Windows re-installed !!!!-  D Even more astonishing the 'lecturer' on the training cd says "PleaseF try to plan for failures and take the system offline before it fails.": Even knowing the quality of Microshit I am just astounded!  > Anyone know of any horror stories I should keep in mind before7 attending a Microsoft led seminar in Chicago next week?  -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:59:26 +0100fU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>s! Subject: Re: OT: Active Directoryt0 Message-ID: <al2pro$3m1$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Alan Greig wrote:   F > 've just been running through some of the Microsoft Active DirectoryG > documentation in preparation for a corporate seminar on its potentialnA > introduction within the company. I find it almost impossible toeF > believe that extremely key roles will not automatically fail over to> > backup systems but must be manually switched. Even worse theG > documentation points out that the original server can only be broughtrD > back online (or even into the domain) if the disk is formatted and > Windows re-installed !!!!d > F > Even more astonishing the 'lecturer' on the training cd says "PleaseH > try to plan for failures and take the system offline before it fails."< > Even knowing the quality of Microshit I am just astounded! > @ > Anyone know of any horror stories I should keep in mind before9 > attending a Microsoft led seminar in Chicago next week?p > -- > Alan >     6 Well, are you expecting to change things like your DNS7 servers as well. I am assuming that you don't currently 6 use MS to host DNS but moving to AD will probably mean going that route as well.o   Regardsa Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:38:35 +0100sU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>'! Subject: Re: OT: Active Directoryp0 Message-ID: <al4kd6$lcl$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>  " rob.buxton@wcc.spam.govt.nz wrote:  G > On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:59:26 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy-6 > <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote: >  >  >> >>Alan Greig wrote:8 >> >>G >>>'ve just been running through some of the Microsoft Active DirectorynH >>>documentation in preparation for a corporate seminar on its potentialB >>>introduction within the company. I find it almost impossible toG >>>believe that extremely key roles will not automatically fail over toi? >>>backup systems but must be manually switched. Even worse themH >>>documentation points out that the original server can only be broughtE >>>back online (or even into the domain) if the disk is formatted and. >>>Windows re-installed !!!! >>>-G >>>Even more astonishing the 'lecturer' on the training cd says "Please-I >>>try to plan for failures and take the system offline before it fails."m= >>>Even knowing the quality of Microshit I am just astounded!i >>> A >>>Anyone know of any horror stories I should keep in mind before : >>>attending a Microsoft led seminar in Chicago next week? >>>--h >>>Alan  >>>u >>>t >>8 >>Well, are you expecting to change things like your DNS9 >>servers as well. I am assuming that you don't currentlyt8 >>use MS to host DNS but moving to AD will probably mean >>going that route as well.' >> > F > At this site the original DNS Servers will remain (on Sun Servers asA > it happens), AD will look after just the local MS automatic DNSs= > nonsense. I think that would more typify mixed architecture  > installations. >     9 Good, the MS folks often use AD's requirments for DDNS toi6 lever out the old DNS system and replace it with their new sparkly one.   Regardsm   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 14:44:41 +0200 E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> ! Subject: Re: OT: Active Directory-+ Message-ID: <3D760039.73F3FC80@mediasec.de>   F > At this site the original DNS Servers will remain (on Sun Servers asA > it happens), AD will look after just the local MS automatic DNSf= > nonsense. I think that would more typify mixed architecturel > installations.  J Same here (BIND8 on Linux doing the real work, AD just used for W2K domain authentication).   	Jan   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:39:38 -0700 (PDT). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>& Subject: OT: UK Universities (CONT...)@ Message-ID: <20020904163938.82498.qmail@web20203.mail.yahoo.com>  	 Dear Sirsu  4 As I didnt match the right course I want to study in$ UK, I still doing some researches at www.educationuk.org 6 I have some preference for Telecommunications Networks or Computer Networks courses.     5 I match a intereting at South Bank University, do youo	 know ????e  , I have the preference for a course with much, more specialization/professional objectives.  . What to you think about HNC or HND? Or PGDip ?  , British people know what I am talking about.     Regardsa           =====c ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilm fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?+ Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotesr http://finance.yahoo.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:58:20 +0530# From: "Vivek Soni" <visoni@bmc.com>, Subject: Please Sum it up./ Message-ID: <un8shnfoe1fa46@corp.supernews.com>?   OpenVMS future trends...  K Could somebody who is touch with the market/industry and the "new HP" plans@- please sum up:  What is the future of OpenVMSQ   for the next 5 years.B   Thanks Viveko   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:33:29 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>o Subject: Re: Please Sum it up.' Message-ID: <3D7473D9.B3B5E3F1@aaa.com>7  / Yes, *THAT'S* what I would like to know also !!f   Jan-Erik Sderholm.n   Vivek Soni wrote:t > 5 > What is the future of OpenVMS for the next 5 years.f   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:34:19 GMTs1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>t Subject: Re: Please Sum it up.. Message-ID: <%61d9.343471$UU1.59444@sccrnsc03>  . "Vivek Soni" <visoni@bmc.com> wrote in message) news:un8shnfoe1fa46@corp.supernews.com...n > OpenVMS future trends... >SG > Could somebody who is touch with the market/industry and the "new HP"  plansi/ > please sum up:  What is the future of OpenVMSt >s > for the next 5 years.s >   F In this forum you will get 5,000 different opinions. For $10K or so, aI coin-operated analyst from a major market research will b glad to providesK you with "probability factors." Th $10K does not include first class travel  and lodging.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 17:28:35 +0530# From: "Vivek Soni" <visoni@bmc.com>- Subject: Re: Please Sum it up./ Message-ID: <un98rutfr4kscb@corp.supernews.com>o  % Whats the sum of all the researches ?:    : Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message( news:%61d9.343471$UU1.59444@sccrnsc03... >r0 > "Vivek Soni" <visoni@bmc.com> wrote in message+ > news:un8shnfoe1fa46@corp.supernews.com...b > > OpenVMS future trends... > > I > > Could somebody who is touch with the market/industry and the "new HP"u > plans"1 > > please sum up:  What is the future of OpenVMSf > >  > > for the next 5 years.  > >u >oH > In this forum you will get 5,000 different opinions. For $10K or so, aK > coin-operated analyst from a major market research will b glad to provideaF > you with "probability factors." Th $10K does not include first class travel > and lodging. >K >H   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:31:55 GMTm, From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org> Subject: Re: Please Sum it up.= Message-ID: <fR2d9.72867$Xa.3722428@twister.southeast.rr.com>e   OpenVMS Rolling RoadmapsB http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps.htm (watch for line wrap on url)   Hope that helps.   --   Kenneth Farmer http://www.Tru64.org http://www.OpenVMS.org      . "Vivek Soni" <visoni@bmc.com> wrote in message) news:un8shnfoe1fa46@corp.supernews.com...5 > OpenVMS future trends... > G > Could somebody who is touch with the market/industry and the "new HP"n plans0/ > please sum up:  What is the future of OpenVMSi >  > for the next 5 years.  >o > Thanks > Viveks >o >o >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:57:57 -0000 - From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)0 Subject: Re: Please Sum it up.5 Message-ID: <927E8BCDBwarrenspencer1977@216.168.3.30>u  I visoni@bmc.com (Vivek Soni) wrote in <un8shnfoe1fa46@corp.supernews.com>:e   >OpenVMS future trends...d >eF >Could somebody who is touch with the market/industry and the "new HP"4 >plans please sum up:  What is the future of OpenVMS >e >for the next 5 years. >e >Thanksn >Vivek  L So far no one has really responded to your question, so I'll take a stab at  it...i  H First, this newgroup has been filled with opinions and prognostications K about OpenVMS's future for at least 14 months (since the Alpha-cide).  You  J may wish to visit www.google.com to review past opinions.  Be forewarned, H however, that much of the negativity was directed at the cancelation of # Alpha, rather than OpenVMS futures.   L HP's "plan of record" has OpenVMS being ported to Intel's Itanium, and this K work is in progress.  IIRC, the first ship date is in 2004.  The optimists 0H among us believe OpenVMS will have a long life of the new platform, and H that's what HP is saying as well.  I happen to side with the optimists, @ although you'll find many in this group with differing opinions.  J One thing, (imho) seems certain:  OpenVMS is entrenched in the financial, L medical, and manufacturing industries; it ain't going away over night.  And K given HP's recent treatment of the os (arguably better than Compaq's), the mD future of the OS seems a lot brighter to me that it did 2 years ago.   ws   -- l   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)r The Associated Press  < ** Time flies like an arrow.  Fruit flies like a bananna. **   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:32:43 -0400v% From: Milton <mbhewitt@optonline.net>e Subject: Re: Please Sum it up.8 Message-ID: <djhanuch5u0vnjjl5h8a3aa7go06g2hrbr@4ax.com>  @ On Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:58:20 +0530, "Vivek Soni" <visoni@bmc.com> wrote:   >OpenVMS future trends...- >-L >Could somebody who is touch with the market/industry and the "new HP" plans. >please sum up:  What is the future of OpenVMS >M >for the next 5 years.  
 The toilet   Wake up and smell the roses,   Cheers,  Milton   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 11:42:13 GMTi1 From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie)j Subject: Re: Please Sum it up.= Message-ID: <pkmd9.402013$q53.13366862@twister.austin.rr.com>m  " Vivek Soni (visoni@bmc.com) wrote: : OpenVMS future trends... : M : Could somebody who is touch with the market/industry and the "new HP" planse/ : please sum up:  What is the future of OpenVMSu :  : for the next 5 years.i : I Are you asking this question for yourself, or has someone in BMC Softwaren management asked the question ?L  H If the latter, it may be appropriate for a VMS Ambassador to pay a visit to BMC Software.  2 --Jerry Leslie   (my opinions are strictly my own)9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for emailb   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Sep 2002 08:29:30 -0600-- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)1 Subject: Re: Please Sum it up.3 Message-ID: <PI9O1kjSYmkm@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  ` In article <djhanuch5u0vnjjl5h8a3aa7go06g2hrbr@4ax.com>, Milton <mbhewitt@optonline.net> writes: >>M >>Could somebody who is touch with the market/industry and the "new HP" plans / >>please sum up:  What is the future of OpenVMSh >> >>for the next 5 years.> >  > The toilet >  > Wake up and smell the roses, >   D    You sound like you've been reading Gartner for the last 15 years.    Wake up and see reality.i   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 06:18:59 +0000 (UTC). From: "Sanface Software" <sanface@sanface.com> Subject: PLUG: txt2pdf 6.0H Message-ID: <0eb07ac11288cc8bec367e41038d4799.93245@mygate.mailgate.org>  / We would like to announce txt2pdf 6.0 version.  # http://www.sanface.com/txt2pdf.html E txt2pdf is shareware; it is a very flexible and powerful PERL5 scriptaH that converts text files to PDF format files, so you can use it in everyC operating systems supported by PERL5, including MPE/iX, OpenVMS and F EPOC. If you prefer we also distribute executables for Windows, Linux,G Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, and Mac OS X. Inside the Windows version is Visualo txt2pdf, a VB GUI.   What's new in this version  D Support for HeiseiMin-W3-90ms-RKSJ-H and HeiseiKakuGo-W5-90ms-RKSJ-H Japanese fonts3 Support for JISB4 and JISB5 Japanese paper formats.b= You can select in txt2pdf.cfg one of the 16 supported fonts. oG You can use one of the 16 supported fonts in the layers (background andr foreground).9 You can use one of the 16 supported fonts with fontmark. e# HTML 4.01 validated documentation. l   Test txt2pdf 6.0!.6 You can find it at http://www.sanface.com/txt2pdf.html     -- e8 Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:55:28 +0200e9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>t Subject: Re: problems with PIPE-' Message-ID: <3D746AF0.EBF27464@aaa.com>0  9 The different "parts" of the PIPE command are executed inc7 subprocesses. Any symbols are lost when each subprocess1@ exits. The line symbol at line 2 and the line symbol in the PIPE' command are not the *same* line symbol.h     Jan-Erik Sderholm.e   Rudolf Wingert wrote:o >  > Hello, > J > I would like to get the DECnet name from a DECnet address or the IP nameF > from the IP address. To do so, I did use the following DCL commands: >  >         $ name = ""s >         $ line = ""s% >         $ IF adr_typ .EQS. "DECnet"  >         $ THENK >         $  PIPE MCR NCP SHOW NODE 'adr' 2> NL: | SEARCH SYS$INPUT 'adr' -d' >                 | READ SYS$INPUT linedF >         $  name = F$ELEMENT (1, "(", F$ELEMENT (0, ")", line)) - "(" >         $ ELSEG >         $  PIPE UCX SHOW HOST 'adr' 2> NL: | SEARCH SYS$INPUT 'adr' -,' >                 | READ SYS$INPUT liner- >         $  line = F$EDIT (line, "COMPRESS") F >         $  name = F$ELEMENT (1, " ", F$ELEMENT (0, ",", line)) - " " >         $ ENDIFS; >         $ IF name .NES. "" THEN         $ GOTO name_foundn > F > Something is wrong within the PIPE command. The symbol line is emptyH > regardless the search did found a line. If the output is more then oneI > line, all lines exclude the first one are displayed. Do anybody have an.I > idea, how I can get the name without using a file. The problem is, thatnC > the there are some cases, where I could not produce a file (writeoE > protect, no priviledge), or that are more then one tmp files create  > at one time. >   > TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:17:13 GMTf- From: "labadie" <labadie_g.tocardsa@decus.fr>e Subject: Re: problems with PIPEa2 Message-ID: <dL1d9.11$ei5.190480@news.cpqcorp.net>  7 "Rainer Giese" <waste.not@welcome.net> wrote in messagee0 news:al1r6b$1mdb8a$1@ID-138444.news.dfncis.de...  * line symbol >(J > Therefore I use Job-Logicals to submit values from a pipe to the callingI > procedure.(define/job in the pipe, deassign/job after getting the value  with > f$trnlnm). >g;  here is an exemple which does the same as the command fileg& reset_backup_saveset_attributes.com at; http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware40/000tools/s    
 $ set noon/ $ if p1.eqs."".or.f$search(p1).eqs."" then exiteI $ ! put correct characteristics for a save set, and later the correct lrls* $ ! which will be very often 32256 or 9216: $ set file/attr=(rfm:fix,rat:none,mrs:32256,lrl:32256) 'p1< $ pipe  bac/lis/ana 'p1/sav | sea sys$pipe "blocksize =" | -1 ( read SYS$PIPE TMP ; DEFINE/JOB/NOLOG TMP &TMP )h, $ tmp1 = f$trnlnm("tmp","lnm$job","super",,) $ loc = f$locate("=",tmp1)" $ blocks = f$extract(loc+2,5,tmp1)- $  set fil/attr=(lrl:'blocks,mrs:'blocks) 'p1  $ exit  K This is less efficient because it reads the complete save-set, which can bev big.   Regardsa   Grard   ------------------------------  . Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:21:59 +0200 (MET DST)& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> Subject: Re: problems with PIPE 6 Message-ID: <200209040621.IAA19668@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  < many thanks to Mr. Schaschl TSC Muenchen. He did give me the	 solution:i  9 	$ PIPE UCX SHOW HOST hugo | SEARCH SYS$INPUT 172.20. | -t5 	  ( READ SYS$INPUT line ; DEFINE/JOB tmp_lnm &line )l% 	$ line = F$TRNLNM ("tmp_lnm", "JOB")n 	$ DEASSIGN/JOB tmp_lnmi   This works fine.   Best regards Rudolf Wingerta   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:48:07 +0200o: From: Karl Rohwedder <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de>' Subject: Re: Remote Site Cluster Memberl/ Message-ID: <al1phq$bit1@doiweb4.volkswagen.de>w   John Santos wrote:+ > On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Karl Rohwedder wrote:l >  >  >>Steve Cage wrote:  >> >>>OpenVMS V7.2-1i >>>hE >>>We currently have two Compaq DS20E's which are clustered utilizing G >>>twin shared SCSI buses and a Quorum disk. Expected Votes is set to 3 D >>>with each node contributing 1 vote. The system disk is shared and, >>>shadowed utilizing the shared SCSI buses. >>>sF >>>This weekend we are going to add another DS20E to the cluster whichE >>>will have its disk drives (same capacity)  located in its internal D >>>drive cage. This machine will be located at our Disaster RecoveryC >>>site, which is approx 1 mile away and connected via a 100MB Full - >>>Duplex Ethernet connection (Colt Lanlink).e >>>oH >>>	For the test we will use cluster_config.com to create a new root on> >>>the shared system disk and add the new node to the cluster.6 >>>	Boot the new node into the cluster over Ethernet.G >>>	Add a disk on the new DS20E to the System Disk Shadow Set. Then we B >>>should be able to boot the new machine of the local hard drive.3 >>>	Remove the Quorum disk with cluster_config.comw0 >>>	Shadow remaining data disks to remote site. >>>_I >>>The whole point of adding the third member is to keep a real time copy'I >>>of data on a running system at a remote site in case disaster strikes.cH >>>My main question is how could we adjust expected_votes at remote siteF >>>if we lost main site and had to run on a single node (assuming linkH >>>was shutdown to avoid partitioning the cluster). I have tried this in8 >>>the past and the single node just dies when you boot. >>>m< >>>Any other help you could offer would also be appreciated. >>L >>The new DS20E at the remote site must have its own system disk. It can NOT= >>form a system disk shadowset via ethernet, because it bootstF >>from a physical local disk, forms the system disk shadowset and thenM >>detects a shadow inconsistency with the system disk shadow set on the othero >>nodes and bugchecks. >  > F > Are you sure about this?  Booting is read-only until a certain pointF > where the new system joins the cluster.  Then it remounts the systemB > disk shared & read/write.  Since the mount occurs *after* it hasC > joined the cluster, it can resolve shadowset issues, find all the D > volumes, etc.  Otherwise, how could you boot multiple systems from( > a common CI-served disk or shadow set? > E > Since one member of the shadow set is at the remote site and servediE > by the remote DS20, it would not be accessible to the other 2 nodestD > until the DS20 had booted far enough to start MSCP serving.  WhileA > it was gone, two things could have happened: 1) the system diskhG > shadow set went into mount verification as soon as something tried to G > write to it, and the whole cluster was hanging waiting for the remote E > DS20 to come back (not truly hung, but there is not a whole lot you A > can do it your system disk is in MV.)  Or, 2) the remote shadow0B > member gets dropped from the shadow set, so when the remote nodeC > reboots, its disk becomes the target of a shadow copy.  Until thel@ > copy completes, all system disk I/O on the remote node will be > performed over the network.n > A > I don't think the remoteness of the remote DS20 is particularly2= > relevent.  It should work just like shadowing in a local NI-= > cluster.  The performance penalty for having to do disk I/O < > over the network would be greater (longer latency) for the= > node a mile away, but otherwise it should behave just as ifm > they were in the same room.  > ? > Has anyone ever done a shadowed system disk over Ethernet whon* > can answer this question with certainty? >   @ Let's say the 2 'local' systems form shadow DSA0 as system disk.B The new Ds20 (remote) boots using its own system disk, say dka0 to7 form a shadow set dsa0, which one should be the master?w  B The new node assumes its shadowset DSA0, the other insist on their& DSA0 -> shadow inconsistency bugcheck.  A E.g. all disaster tolerant VMS clusters use 'local' system disks,=0 locally shadowed of course, on each remote site.   -- o  - mit freundlichen Gruessen | with best regardsm   Karl Rohwedder               =C iT-Ingenieurteam     | Ellernbruch 11       | D-38112 Braunschweig _A Telefon: 0531/515521 | Telefax: 0531/515531 | Mobil: 0172/5434843 H  E-Mail: rohwedder(at)decus.decus.de        | iT-IngTeam(at)t-online.de .          karl.rohwedder(at)it-ingenieurteam.de DATEX-P: 4505018005::ROHWEDDER   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 16:04:54 +02002 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>B Subject: Re: Secret New Products (was: Is the HP/Compaq merger...)G Message-ID: <3d74c17f$0$17310$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>-  B "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag7 news:vXLc9.90815$kp.733196@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...o >u4 > "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message4 > news:dda6nuofqj8vh4m6ki0h7nvm03vtgslhb3@4ax.com...E > > On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:48:21 -0700, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>t
 > > wrote: > > I > > >I think HP should get an injunction, this could cause some confusionu > > >in the marketplace. > >rI > > Lawyers for DEC and the vacuum cleaner manufacturer agreed long, longtJ > > ago that they were happy as long as DEC never made vacuum cleaners and > > VAX never made computers.s > >hF > > Once upon a time the ads said "Nothing sucks like a VAX" and printB > > copies of these ads could often be found stuck to the sides ofH > > 11/780s. I thought this used to be in the VMS faq but it isn't there > > now. > K > All of the above is true. You can still buy a VAX vacuum cleaner. Back in G > them days, folks could work things out without benefit of lawyers ands such.i+ > I guess what we have today is "Progress."c >e >r  J At least in Austria "Progress" used to be a brand of  vacuum cleaners too.   Ren   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:32:01 GMTe1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>pJ Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?- Message-ID: <R41d9.182304$aA.36947@sccrnsc02>s  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D742676.8B12516C@videotron.ca... > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:mL > > Oh, just a few years after I wrote my book about it. HP *does* appear to be% > > making some improvements, though.l >"J > And Bob GQ Palmer made dramatic improvements when he stoped advertisingtK > "migrate from VMS to Unix". But That didn't  mean he became "pro VMS" andF did0 > things to grow VMS.a > J > Compared to Compaq and June 25, even HP's total avoidance of mentioniong VMSlJ > seesm like an improvement, but that still isn't enough to give customers- > confidence in the vendor's true intentions.e  ' Those are good questions. I have a few:n  ' Are you a DEC, CPQ, or HPQ stockholder?:  $ Are you a DEC, CPQ, or HPQ customer?  = Do you own or use any equpment produced by the aforementioned D manufactureres? If not, your crediibility factor may be a subject of conjecture/h   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:28:34 GMT/* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>J Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?C Message-ID: <C38d9.274343$Aw4.11487962@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>o  < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message' news:R41d9.182304$aA.36947@sccrnsc02...n >i< > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3D742676.8B12516C@videotron.ca... > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: K > > > Oh, just a few years after I wrote my book about it. HP *does* appearu to > be' > > > making some improvements, though.1 > >.L > > And Bob GQ Palmer made dramatic improvements when he stoped advertisingtI > > "migrate from VMS to Unix". But That didn't  mean he became "pro VMS"  anda > didd > > things to grow VMS.p > >pL > > Compared to Compaq and June 25, even HP's total avoidance of mentioniong > VMSnL > > seesm like an improvement, but that still isn't enough to give customers/ > > confidence in the vendor's true intentions.e >i) > Those are good questions. I have a few:b > ) > Are you a DEC, CPQ, or HPQ stockholder?n >t& > Are you a DEC, CPQ, or HPQ customer? >w? > Do you own or use any equpment produced by the aforementionedtF > manufactureres? If not, your crediibility factor may be a subject of
 > conjecture/V  H Hmmm.  Do you parrot HP press releases verbatim as 'news', over your ownG copyright claim?  Have you changed your public position on the relative0H technical merits of Alpha vs. Itanic in the blink of an eye when Alpha'sL owner did?  Do you habitually denigrate those who dare to question cHumPaq'sH integrity and competence as a result of Compaq's actions on 6/25/01 (and$ earlier related ones) and following?  J Those seem to raise far more serious doubts about your own credibility andJ objectivity than the questionably-relavant points you raise above (whether or not they even apply to JF).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:46:26 -0400g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>wJ Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?+ Message-ID: <3D74F571.FF58206@videotron.ca>-   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: & > Are you a DEC, CPQ, or HPQ customer?  N No, ever since the demise of DECdirect in Canada, I have been unable to buy myN supplies from Digital.  I believe I did buy once from teh DEC-refurb dept justL after the Compaq merger, but everything was still "Digital" on the invoices.M Ever since, I have found it much simpler ands easier to buy from others (suchp5 as the local computer shop for printer supplies etc).t  ? > Do you own or use any equpment produced by the aforementionedhE > manufactureres? If not, your credibility factor may be a subject of0
 > conjecture/i  K Not only do I own multiple VAXes, but the first one, I paid $20,000 **OF MYtG OWN MONEY**. And I invested heavily in VMS for my carreer, and am now aiJ worthless ugly bag of mostly water because the owners of VMS had made sureK that VMS skills are not in demand. I think I have a right to comment on thee fate of VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 16:06:28 -0400g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>BJ Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?, Message-ID: <3D75163A.2F477733@videotron.ca>  > > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message+ > > Are you a DEC, CPQ, or HPQ stockholder?i( > > Are you a DEC, CPQ, or HPQ customer?A > > Do you own or use any equpment produced by the aforementionedoH > > manufactureres? If not, your crediibility factor may be a subject of > > conjecture/n    L You know, come to think of it, I shouldn't have answered those questions. ItH is none of your business.  I have a right to say what I think, and if HPM prefers to ignore how people feel about certain of its products, so be it.  IhL used to defend Digital in fierce fights, without any support from Digital. IH even protected Digital from itself in many instances where Digital's ownM actions or inactions jeoperdized an existing account and/or additional sales.-  M But it is now totally pointless for me to fight for VMS because in the end, IrJ am the one who loses the most and Digital/Compaq/HP doesn't even know whatM happened, even less thank me for me efforts. however, I do make it a point to M show how its actions (or lack thereof) and negatively impacting the view thata9 people have of VMS. I care zilch about HP's own products.c  H Lately, you (Mr Shannon) seem to have been on a mission to eradicate anyG criticism of Compaq/HP and discrediting any of those who criticise saiduM company.  As a reporter, you would be expected to be neutral, but you seem to,M be going through great lengths to protect HP. Since you asked me to reveal mytL relationship with HP/Compaq/Digital, perhaps you should publicly reveal whatC sort of ties you have with HP, or would that jeoperdize such ties ?e   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2002 23:51:30 GMTr& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)J Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?- Message-ID: <al3hu2$l0c@web.eng.baileynm.com>T  - In article <R41d9.182304$aA.36947@sccrnsc02>,f0 Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:? > Do you own or use any equpment produced by the aforementionedwF > manufactureres? If not, your crediibility factor may be a subject of
 > conjecture/0  E Why? Only DECHPAQ customers and shareholders tell the truth, everyoneRH else lies? Sounds like one of those logic puzzles with the three natives and two canoes...t   --  O I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs1O of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate.  AlloL these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain.   `-_-'K Time for your nap.  | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag?    'U`s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 09:50:07 +0100D( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>J Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?) Message-ID: <3D75C93F.BF4224F7@127.0.0.1>a   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > ) > Those are good questions. I have a few:n > ) > Are you a DEC, CPQ, or HPQ stockholder?E > & > Are you a DEC, CPQ, or HPQ customer? > ? > Do you own or use any equpment produced by the aforementionedrF > manufactureres? If not, your crediibility factor may be a subject of
 > conjecture/R  D With total due respect Terry, I think such questions are irrelevant.  D You only have to look in this forum to realize that there are peopleF around that want to run VMS by choice, and go to some effort trying toF achieve just that. While the majority are hobbyists, bear in mind theyE are investing in membership and usually relatively persistent in thisp' group to getting their systems working.   F There is also a contingent contributing here that would like to deploy? VMS, but cannot due to the lack of either management support orc applications (or both).t  F The thing they do not lack is passion [for VMS] and their constructiveG opinions and ideas are as welcome as any major investor, and not taking05 their views into account would probably be a mistake.e  = I personally know quite a number of folks, who would like the$G opportunity to run and work with VMS, yet they are unable to by reasonsoF often cited by the users and non users. Sometimes these non users haveH been away for years in double digits, yet they remember, and still want.@ Long lasting passion like that should, in my opinion, be heeded.   -- e? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesc nclews at csc dot comc   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 09:35:44 +0100m% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> J Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?8 Message-ID: <magbnus4bvg9ta2gtnqinfedp78nhpud9s@4ax.com>  , On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:46:26 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:r     >,L >Not only do I own multiple VAXes, but the first one, I paid $20,000 **OF MYH >OWN MONEY**. And I invested heavily in VMS for my carreer, and am now aK >worthless ugly bag of mostly water because the owners of VMS had made sure2L >that VMS skills are not in demand. I think I have a right to comment on the
 >fate of VMS.c  C And this sums it up nicely. As long as there's a large number of us C looking at career changes (or already emptying the trash) thanks to2C the actions of VMS's owners then these owners are going to get shit:A thrown at them. Why is this so hard for some folks to understand..  F Had first Digital , then Compaq and perhaps HP helped me every step ofE the way to push VMS but it failed in the marketplace, I would feel noUE animosity But instead I've spent the last decade fighting them trying F to push me towards Unix then Windows. Yes, there are the advocates whoD *do* help but, unless you are in a particular specialist applicationD area, that's just not good enough to fight their employers corporate	 momentum.k  A This is perhaps the real reason Capellas would like to see VMS golE away. He knows that the constant complaints will never go away unless:D VMS goes into strong growth mode. He doesn't plan for this I'm sure.! Now the problem is over to Carly.h   -- Alan   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 04 Sep 02 09:44:32 GMTh From: jmfbahciv@aol.comrJ Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?+ Message-ID: <al4osj$t8i$2@bob.news.rcn.net>t  C In article <C38d9.274343$Aw4.11487962@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,d.    "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: >i= >"Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in messagei( >news:R41d9.182304$aA.36947@sccrnsc02... <snip>  K >Those seem to raise far more serious doubts about your own credibility andlK >objectivity than the questionably-relavant points you raise above (whethere >or not they even apply to JF).r  ? I've had no doubts since I began reading his posts in 1995.  Itt$ helps to have been through it twice.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.n   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 04 Sep 02 09:48:35 GMTl From: jmfbahciv@aol.com J Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?+ Message-ID: <al4p47$t8i$3@bob.news.rcn.net>e  ) In article <3D75C93F.BF4224F7@127.0.0.1>,e,    Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote: >"Terry C. Shannon" wrote: >>  * >> Those are good questions. I have a few: >> n* >> Are you a DEC, CPQ, or HPQ stockholder? >> t' >> Are you a DEC, CPQ, or HPQ customer?  >> o@ >> Do you own or use any equpment produced by the aforementionedG >> manufactureres? If not, your crediibility factor may be a subject ofn >> conjecture/ >yE >With total due respect Terry, I think such questions are irrelevant.a >.E >You only have to look in this forum to realize that there are people G >around that want to run VMS by choice, and go to some effort trying totG >achieve just that. While the majority are hobbyists, bear in mind they F >are investing in membership and usually relatively persistent in this( >group to getting their systems working. > G >There is also a contingent contributing here that would like to deploy @ >VMS, but cannot due to the lack of either management support or >applications (or both). >nG >The thing they do not lack is passion [for VMS] and their constructivesH >opinions and ideas are as welcome as any major investor, and not taking6 >their views into account would probably be a mistake. >a> >I personally know quite a number of folks, who would like theH >opportunity to run and work with VMS, yet they are unable to by reasonsG >often cited by the users and non users. Sometimes these non users havesI >been away for years in double digits, yet they remember, and still want.mA >Long lasting passion like that should, in my opinion, be heeded.i  > You should also make clearer that this passion = $$$$$.  Those? people who remember how well computing services were delieverede> when using that software are now in high enough positions that govern purchase requisitions.     ; I know you think you made it clear, but, IME, the people ate; Digital never understood that.  I am assuming that the samen? idiotic mind set has been handed down to subsequent management.e   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 08:37:30 -0400I2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>+ Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this weekt. Message-ID: <3D74AD0A.516B64EE@mindspring.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:  e > In article <3D6F855F.C790DB27@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:  >  > > Because of this, fileo. > > extensions on the Macintosh are never more/ > > than a hint used to resolve what to do withh& > > files imported from other systems. >t- >    You haven't really tried OS X, have you.     The metadata's still there, Bob.   Atlant   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2002 15:52:21 -0600s- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)-+ Subject: Re: silliest thing heard this weekd3 Message-ID: <A2IKs0gcsrYw@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  c In article <3D74AD0A.516B64EE@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:e > Bob Koehler wrote: > f >> In article <3D6F855F.C790DB27@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes: >> >> > Because of this, file/ >> > extensions on the Macintosh are never moreu0 >> > than a hint used to resolve what to do with' >> > files imported from other systems.A >>. >>    You haven't really tried OS X, have you. > " > The metadata's still there, Bob.  E    If you put it there.  If you don't put it there, OS X will use theRI    extension.  You can even modify the Mac creator and type by all files c    of a certain extension.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 17:27:45 GMT 4 From: "Barry Kierstein" <Barry.Kierstein@Compaq.Com>A Subject: Re: Size of I/O count fields in SHOW PROC and SHOW SYS ? 2 Message-ID: <lord9.39$qH6.609413@news.cpqcorp.net>  A Which fields are you refering to?  I'd like to check into this...e    Barry Kierstein, AM/DECamds team$ ====================================9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in messaget' news:878z2qde1o.fsf@prep.synonet.com... 5 > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  >tH > > Interesting question. I would expect it to just quietly overflow andE > > roll back around to zero like DCL does in the following, but thats > > may be a brash assumption: >iA > Or, as the AMDS NISCS stuff does, go negative then wrap around.7 >. > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.aB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 00:29:00 -0600-$ From: Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca>' Subject: Storageworks paritioned drivese) Message-ID: <3D75A82C.8112C78F@cha.ab.ca>f  C I will soon be installing some Storageworks 18GB drives.  I want to1H partition these drives into smaller ones and use them for shadowing withF existing 4.3GB and 9.1GB drives..  For example, four 4.3GB, two 9.1GB,E or one 9.1GB and two 4.3GB.  Is anyone using these partitioned drivesiF for HBVS?  Is their behaviour the same as true 4.3GB and 91.Gb drives?@ HP Support says VMS 7.3 and 7.3-1 should allow this type of disk
 partitioning.g     Lee   ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authorityi? Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC 4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9e   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Sep 2002 08:23:48 -0600q+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)Q+ Subject: Re: Storageworks paritioned drives 3 Message-ID: <eXliS9ZEBjST@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  P In article <3D75A82C.8112C78F@cha.ab.ca>, Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> writes:E > I will soon be installing some Storageworks 18GB drives.  I want to J > partition these drives into smaller ones and use them for shadowing withH > existing 4.3GB and 9.1GB drives..  For example, four 4.3GB, two 9.1GB,G > or one 9.1GB and two 4.3GB.  Is anyone using these partitioned drives H > for HBVS?  Is their behaviour the same as true 4.3GB and 91.Gb drives?B > HP Support says VMS 7.3 and 7.3-1 should allow this type of disk > partitioning.n >    Lee,  H 	Shadowing partitions *was* (is?) supported in one strict configuration.@ 	If you go under STORAGE in DSN ITS, search for shadow partition   	You hit this blitz:  E    INFORMATION BLITZ TITLE: Volume Shadowing Restriction on Multipatha    HSG/HSZ Disk Partitions      PROBLEM STATEMENT:g  F    A partition of a multipath disk on an HSG80, HSG60, HSZ80, or HSZ70G    controller can be used as a member of a host-based shadow set if and5G    only if that disk is used exclusively for that partition.  [In otherrB 	words, you can use a single partition, the rest just sits there].  B     Compaq expects to remove this restriction in the future.  ThisC     restriction is documented in the V7.2-2 and V7.3 release notes.    ---   ! 	Contact info is in that article.o  ? 	Could you verify this restriction was lifted?  The above BLITZu0 	states it was/is a restriction in 7.3.  Thanks.   				Rob      B Men with walkie-talkie                  I'm home again to you babeC Men with flashlights waving             You know it makes me wonderpG Up upon the tower                       Sittin' in the quiet slipstreamn> The clock reads daylight savin'         Rollin' in the thunder  -                                 -- Neil Young    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 09:00:59 -0500a( From: David Harrold <DHarrold@wi.rr.com>+ Subject: Re: Storageworks paritioned drivesc2 Message-ID: <al53mr$ern$1@newsreader.mailgate.org>   Hi Lee,t  I On Wed, 04 Sep 2002 00:29:00 -0600, Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote:-  D >I will soon be installing some Storageworks 18GB drives.  I want toI >partition these drives into smaller ones and use them for shadowing with,G >existing 4.3GB and 9.1GB drives..  For example, four 4.3GB, two 9.1GB,@F >or one 9.1GB and two 4.3GB.  Is anyone using these partitioned drivesG >for HBVS?  Is their behaviour the same as true 4.3GB and 91.Gb drives?bA >HP Support says VMS 7.3 and 7.3-1 should allow this type of diskn >partitioning.   DON'T DO IT!!!!!   O.K. I'm calmed down now.e  M If you take an 18Gb drive and partition it to be a 4.3Gb drive *and leave themK rest of the drive unused*, it will work great.  I did this when we migratedi" some drives from CI to FC storage.  K There is, however, a problem if you use the remaining space on the drive to H create another partition for use in another shadow set. There is a blitzJ titled "[TD 2983] Volume Shadowing Restriction on Multipath HSG/HSZ Disk -N BLITZ" that lists the restriction.  In our case, it caused systems to crash or to reset.  Definitely not fun.  I I can't find right now, but supposedly V7.3-1 removes this restriction.  v   >i >  >Lee >t< >Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authority@ >Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC5 >Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NWi@ >Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9 >3   Hope that helps.   Dave Harrold    N ..............................................................................N David Harrold                              E-Mail: David_Harrold at aurora.orgI Sr. Software Systems Engineer              Phone:          (414) 647-6204iI                                            Pager:          (414) 941-4634 G Aurora Health Care                         Fax:          (414) 647-4999u 3031 W. Montana Street Milwaukee, WI 53215n   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 14:03:21 GMTu/ From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks)r+ Subject: Re: Storageworks paritioned drivesI- Message-ID: <HXG4l3FcISHR@cuebid.zko.dec.com>s  a In article <eXliS9ZEBjST@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:l > Lee, > J > 	Shadowing partitions *was* (is?) supported in one strict configuration.B > 	If you go under STORAGE in DSN ITS, search for shadow partition >  > 	You hit this blitz: > G >    INFORMATION BLITZ TITLE: Volume Shadowing Restriction on Multipatho >    HSG/HSZ Disk Partitions >  >    PROBLEM STATEMENT:a > H >    A partition of a multipath disk on an HSG80, HSG60, HSZ80, or HSZ70I >    controller can be used as a member of a host-based shadow set if andmI >    only if that disk is used exclusively for that partition.  [In otherpD > 	words, you can use a single partition, the rest just sits there]. > D >     Compaq expects to remove this restriction in the future.  ThisE >     restriction is documented in the V7.2-2 and V7.3 release notes.h > A > 	Could you verify this restriction was lifted?  The above BLITZe2 > 	states it was/is a restriction in 7.3.  Thanks.  6 V7.3-1 supports HBVS with multipath partitioned disks.   -- :  M Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 06:08:23 -0400s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m* Subject: Re: TCPIP services: SLIP question, Message-ID: <3D748A0F.C53D3D12@videotron.ca>   Thanks to all who responded.  ! I got my PSION to work partially.e  4 did a SET INTERFACE SL1/network=255.255.0.0 10.1.0.01  and  SET ROUTE 10.1.0.0/gateway=10.1.0.0/mask=16   ( And set the PSION to address 10.1.0.20    I The big change was to have the gateway point to the SL1 interface addressy7 instead of the real VMS host's address on the internet.i  L I see to have flow control problems however. But I can do DNS queries on theM server that is on the other VMS node, and that node was able to connect to mye/ PSION's basic SMTP server to deliver an email !s  J However, there does seem to be some flow control issue, and I will have to investigate this.n  9 The PSION is not able to access the outside world though.s  	 Question:t  N If the PSION wants to access the "internet", should the VMS host automaticallyM route the request to the default gateway (my router to the cable modem)  ? OrE" need I somehow build a new route ?  E Another interesting thing I have found is if I try to traceroute fromtJ 10.0.0.10 to 10.0.0.11 (both in same subnet and on the same ethernet), theG request first goes to 10.0.0.1 (router) which is defined as the defaultr gateway and then to 10.0.0.11.  < Should each host have a route to itself for its own subnet ?? for instance, in a 10.0.0.* subnet, should host 10.0.0.11 have: @ 	SET ROUTE/network/mask=24/gateway=10.0.0.11 10.0.0.0     ??????  M By doing the above, a traceroute goes directly to the adjoining hosts withoutyL going through the default route (which is the gateway). I would have thoughtK that a traceroute would go directly to the adjoining hosts if the adjoininguN host is in the same subnet of an address and especially if the requestion host has an arp entry.a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:29:50 -0400% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>t* Subject: Re: TCPIP services: SLIP question/ Message-ID: <una3df64j2jhb4@news.supernews.com>u  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D748A0F.C53D3D12@videotron.ca... > Thanks to all who responded. >d# > I got my PSION to work partially.  >e6 > did a SET INTERFACE SL1/network=255.255.0.0 10.1.0.03 >  and  SET ROUTE 10.1.0.0/gateway=10.1.0.0/mask=16o >,( > And set the PSION to address 10.1.0.20 >NK > The big change was to have the gateway point to the SL1 interface addressc9 > instead of the real VMS host's address on the internet.2 >:J > I see to have flow control problems however. But I can do DNS queries on theoL > server that is on the other VMS node, and that node was able to connect to my1 > PSION's basic SMTP server to deliver an email !: >-L > However, there does seem to be some flow control issue, and I will have to > investigate this.b >t; > The PSION is not able to access the outside world though.e >d > Question:M >oB > If the PSION wants to access the "internet", should the VMS host
 automaticallyoL > route the request to the default gateway (my router to the cable modem)  ? Or$ > need I somehow build a new route ?  L VMS probably is sending the request to the default gateway.  But the defaultK gateway doesn't know how to get to the 10.1.*.* network so the replys nevers8 get back the the PSION (or even as far as the VMS host).   >mG > Another interesting thing I have found is if I try to traceroute from L > 10.0.0.10 to 10.0.0.11 (both in same subnet and on the same ethernet), theI > request first goes to 10.0.0.1 (router) which is defined as the defaults  > gateway and then to 10.0.0.11. >y  H This should not happen.  Post the output from TCPIP SHOW ROUTE and TCPIP SHOW INTERFACE/FULLs  > > Should each host have a route to itself for its own subnet ?   No!o  A > for instance, in a 10.0.0.* subnet, should host 10.0.0.11 have:eA > SET ROUTE/network/mask=24/gateway=10.0.0.11 10.0.0.0     ??????k >sG > By doing the above, a traceroute goes directly to the adjoining hostst withouttF > going through the default route (which is the gateway). I would have thought C > that a traceroute would go directly to the adjoining hosts if the:	 adjoining K > host is in the same subnet of an address and especially if the requestionu host > has an arp entry.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:57:42 -04004- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>T* Subject: Re: TCPIP services: SLIP question, Message-ID: <3D75142C.51CFFA40@videotron.ca>   John Vottero wrote:4J > This should not happen.  Post the output from TCPIP SHOW ROUTE and TCPIP > SHOW INTERFACE/FULL   , from node BIKE (10.0.0.10)  (comments below)   $ traceroute velon< traceroute to VELO (10.0.0.11), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets+  1  router1 (10.0.0.1)  20 ms  20 ms  10 msh)  2  VELO (10.0.0.11)  20 ms  10 ms  20 mst   $ traceroute www.ibm.com  F traceroute to www.ibm.com (129.42.17.99), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets+  1  router1 (10.0.0.1)  20 ms  10 ms  10 ms .  2  10.98.0.1 (10.98.0.1)  20 ms  20 ms  20 msO  3  modemcable169.240-200-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca (24.200.240.169)  30 ms  20 mss <etc etc etc etc>t  M The traceroute to IBM works as expected, going through the router to the rest:M of the world, which is why I never really looked into my routing tables since  they seemed to work fine.,     $ tcpip show route/full>$                              DYNAMIC< Type           Destination                           GatewayD AN  * 0.0.0.0                             * 10.0.0.1         router1A AN  * 10.1.0.0/16                         * 10.0.0.11        VELOIF DH  * 127.0.0.1        LOCALHOST          * 127.0.0.1        LOCALHOST     $ tcpip show interface/fulle  Interface: SE0 J    IP_Addr: 10.0.0.10         NETWRK: 255.255.255.240   BRDCST: 10.0.0.255E                        Ethernet_Addr: AA-00-04-00-05-04    MTU:  1500v      Flags: None5                                   RECEIVE        SEND 5    Packets                         362933      165932n5      Errors                             0           0V)    Collisions:                          0n      Interface: LO0aJ    IP_Addr: 127.0.0.1         NETWRK: 255.0.0.0         BRDCST: 10.0.0.255      Flags: None5                                   RECEIVE        SEND 5    Packets                            487         487l5      Errors                             0           0a)    Collisions:                          0r      I Comments: now, I have 255.255.255.240 as network mask. That seems to havebN worked fine for all 3 machines on my ether, as well as the router. That shouldJ give me an effective address range between 10.0.0.0 and 10.0.0.15, correct ????  (240 is F0 in hex).p   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 02:56:16 -0400  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>* Subject: Re: TCPIP services: SLIP question4 Message-ID: <1020904024038.416B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  # On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, JF Mezei wrote:    > John Vottero wrote:uL > > This should not happen.  Post the output from TCPIP SHOW ROUTE and TCPIP > > SHOW INTERFACE/FULL  > . > from node BIKE (10.0.0.10)  (comments below) >  > $ traceroute velou> > traceroute to VELO (10.0.0.11), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets- >  1  router1 (10.0.0.1)  20 ms  20 ms  10 ms0+ >  2  VELO (10.0.0.11)  20 ms  10 ms  20 msr >  > $ traceroute www.ibm.com > H > traceroute to www.ibm.com (129.42.17.99), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets- >  1  router1 (10.0.0.1)  20 ms  10 ms  10 ms20 >  2  10.98.0.1 (10.98.0.1)  20 ms  20 ms  20 msQ >  3  modemcable169.240-200-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca (24.200.240.169)  30 ms  20 mst > <etc etc etc etc>  > O > The traceroute to IBM works as expected, going through the router to the rest.O > of the world, which is why I never really looked into my routing tables sincee > they seemed to work fine.- >  >  > $ tcpip show route/full & >                              DYNAMIC> > Type           Destination                           GatewayF > AN  * 0.0.0.0                             * 10.0.0.1         router1C > AN  * 10.1.0.0/16                         * 10.0.0.11        VELOaH > DH  * 127.0.0.1        LOCALHOST          * 127.0.0.1        LOCALHOST >  >  > $ tcpip show interface/fullh >  Interface: SE0mL >    IP_Addr: 10.0.0.10         NETWRK: 255.255.255.240   BRDCST: 10.0.0.255  ? Broadcast should be "all ones" in the current subnet: 10.0.0.15o    G >                        Ethernet_Addr: AA-00-04-00-05-04    MTU:  1500l >      Flags: None7 >                                   RECEIVE        SEND 7 >    Packets                         362933      165932h7 >      Errors                             0           0d+ >    Collisions:                          0o >  >  >  Interface: LO0-L >    IP_Addr: 127.0.0.1         NETWRK: 255.0.0.0         BRDCST: 10.0.0.255  E Broadcast should be "all ones" in the current subnet: 127.255.255.255R   >      Flags: None7 >                                   RECEIVE        SEND 7 >    Packets                            487         487.7 >      Errors                             0           0=+ >    Collisions:                          0e >  >  > K > Comments: now, I have 255.255.255.240 as network mask. That seems to haveaP > worked fine for all 3 machines on my ether, as well as the router. That shouldL > give me an effective address range between 10.0.0.0 and 10.0.0.15, correct > ????  (240 is F0 in hex).s  D Remember you can't use the 1st or last address in a subnet (10.0.0.0C and 10.0.0.15) as a host address.  The 1st is to indicate a network E (e.g. in a routing table entry) and the last is used for broadcasts.) E I think in an earlier post, you may have mentioned using one of these  addresses for something.  C I don't know if the broadcasts addresses are part of the problem oroF not.  On my system (Alpha VMS V7.3, TCPIP V5.3), the broadcast addressF for LO0 is blank.  I'm sure I didn't explicitly set it to anything, so! I don't know how that came to be.o  C As for everything going through the router, stuff on the LAN in the A same subnet should go directly to the destination, but everything @ else (SLIP lines, other subnets on the same LAN, the Internet atH large) should go to the router.  If there is a direct path or a shortcutD not involving the router (I think you said earlier you are trying toG set up a 3rd node on a SLIP line into one of your other 2 VMS systems),iE then the router should send an "ICMP redirect" to the sender, telling D it to use the shorter path, and all subsequent packets should bypass? the router.  The router has to know about this path, of course.n  E (I think through thread drift and snippage, we have lost the original E configuration.  IIRC, you have a router (ROUTER1) and two VMS systems-C (BIKE and VELO) on an ethernet, and a 3rd system (???) connected to @ one of BIKE or VELO via SLIP on a serial line...  If this is all0 wrong, then my advice probably won't help.  :-()   -- m John Santoso Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 05:19:19 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> * Subject: Re: TCPIP services: SLIP question, Message-ID: <3D75CFFC.FD22F0A8@videotron.ca>   John Santos wrote: > >  Interface: SE0 N > >    IP_Addr: 10.0.0.10         NETWRK: 255.255.255.240   BRDCST: 10.0.0.255 > A > Broadcast should be "all ones" in the current subnet: 10.0.0.15S  K Thanks. That was a setting that dated from when I had set my subnet mask to J 255.255.255.0, but later I reduced it to .240 to isolate one node that had been set higher.  A > the router.  The router has to know about this path, of course.t  M I added a route to the router to reach the 10.1.*.* network via 10.0.0.11 andpI that seemed to greatly improve things. My PSION can now traceroute to then! outside of my lan via the router.S  M My problems is now one of data corruption/flow control. For short data burstswN like a DNS query, it works fine, but for a web page or long email message, theI PSION really seems to get confused and cut off the link when it gets much I stuff. And interestingly, the remote end still thinks it is connected andeL attempst to resend the stuff as soon as the psion comes back on-line, but itL no longer has that port/socket opened and gets more confused :-)  I think it% might be a limitation of slip though.   J Tomorrow, I will remove the decconnect cord and plugs and set the cable toH full modem control so that I can implement hardware RTS/CTS flow control between the PSION and the VAX.  G > (I think through thread drift and snippage, we have lost the originalnG > configuration.  IIRC, you have a router (ROUTER1) and two VMS systems E > (BIKE and VELO) on an ethernet, and a 3rd system (???) connected to-3 > one of BIKE or VELO via SLIP on a serial line... a   That is correct.            [PSION]
             |o-  [MAC]   [VELO]   [BIKE]   [ROUTER1]   [IMAC]$*    +--------+--------+--------+----------+    K Now, another question. I manually added a route on ROUTER1 to allow trafficl/ from there to know how to reach PSION via VELO.s  N But lets suppose I had 5000 VMS nodes. Isn't there a way for VELO to advertiseI that it serves as gateway to the [PSION] subnet to all others on the lan,1N which would save me from having to define routes to [PSION] in every machine ?    M Also, since the MACs don't have routing tables, what would be the strategy to N employ for VELO to tell the MAC and IMAC how to reach PSION ? The manual talksJ about faking an ARP containing the IP address of the PSION pointing to the9 ethernet address of VELO (the gateway). Is that correct ?    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:29:17 -0400% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> * Subject: Re: TCPIP services: SLIP question/ Message-ID: <unc9mf85fc88dd@news.supernews.com>f  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D75CFFC.FD22F0A8@videotron.ca... > John Santos wrote: > > >  Interface: SE0eE > > >    IP_Addr: 10.0.0.10         NETWRK: 255.255.255.240   BRDCST:n
 10.0.0.255 > > C > > Broadcast should be "all ones" in the current subnet: 10.0.0.15n >vJ > Thanks. That was a setting that dated from when I had set my subnet mask toL > 255.255.255.0, but later I reduced it to .240 to isolate one node that had > been set higher. >3C > > the router.  The router has to know about this path, of course.o >AK > I added a route to the router to reach the 10.1.*.* network via 10.0.0.11. and.K > that seemed to greatly improve things. My PSION can now traceroute to the # > outside of my lan via the router.r >dH > My problems is now one of data corruption/flow control. For short data burstsL > like a DNS query, it works fine, but for a web page or long email message, the K > PSION really seems to get confused and cut off the link when it gets much0K > stuff. And interestingly, the remote end still thinks it is connected and K > attempst to resend the stuff as soon as the psion comes back on-line, buto itK > no longer has that port/socket opened and gets more confused :-)  I thinkH it' > might be a limitation of slip though.E >TL > Tomorrow, I will remove the decconnect cord and plugs and set the cable toJ > full modem control so that I can implement hardware RTS/CTS flow control  > between the PSION and the VAX. >iI > > (I think through thread drift and snippage, we have lost the original I > > configuration.  IIRC, you have a router (ROUTER1) and two VMS systemsHG > > (BIKE and VELO) on an ethernet, and a 3rd system (???) connected ton4 > > one of BIKE or VELO via SLIP on a serial line... >  > That is correct. >          [PSION] >             |h/ >  [MAC]   [VELO]   [BIKE]   [ROUTER1]   [IMAC]e, >    +--------+--------+--------+----------+ >r > E > Now, another question. I manually added a route on ROUTER1 to allowo trafficc1 > from there to know how to reach PSION via VELO.  > F > But lets suppose I had 5000 VMS nodes. Isn't there a way for VELO to	 advertiseuK > that it serves as gateway to the [PSION] subnet to all others on the lan, F > which would save me from having to define routes to [PSION] in every	 machine ?k >   H You should have already enabled Routing via the Core environment.  After that take a look at-  + SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TCPIP$GATED]TCPIP$GATED.CONF0  J This is another reason to use natural class subnets because RIP V1 doesn'tE use subnets.  RIP V2 does but a lot of stuff only listens for RIP V1.r   >>L > Also, since the MACs don't have routing tables, what would be the strategy toJ > employ for VELO to tell the MAC and IMAC how to reach PSION ? The manual talks.L > about faking an ARP containing the IP address of the PSION pointing to the; > ethernet address of VELO (the gateway). Is that correct ?t  L MACs don't have routing tables?  That's surprising.  I don't think you'll beJ able to add an ARP entry because the PSION is in a different subnet.  Your best bet is probably OS X.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:26:47 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>e Subject: TCPTRACEi9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEMCFKAA.tom@kednos.com>s  ? I am being bombarded on the ftp server, running hgftp, tcpip5.1tB under 7.3.  I need to turn on TCPTRACE to track down the culprits.8 What all options do I need to supply to gather the info?     ---c& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 8/2/2002e   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Sep 2002 01:14:14 -07001 From: ac.atn@sarenet.es (David) 6 Subject: the number of caracters of the name of a file= Message-ID: <ee9e24f1.0209040014.521f7577@posting.google.com>    Hello.  D Im new in VMS but im trying to learn, thanks. My question is this:  E Is posible to increase the number of caracters of the name of a file,eE i have to put a name to a file that is longer than 25, can i do this?o   Thanks only for reading this.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:29:53 +0200i: From: Karl Rohwedder <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de>: Subject: Re: the number of caracters of the name of a file/ Message-ID: <al4g6n$sug1@doiweb4.volkswagen.de>p   David wrote: > Hellom > F > Im new in VMS but im trying to learn, thanks. My question is this: > G > Is posible to increase the number of caracters of the name of a file,pG > i have to put a name to a file that is longer than 25, can i do this?. >  > Thanks only for reading this.d  U The allowd limits for filename depend very much on the architecture, the VMS version  O and the disk structure. Assume an later VMS version and an ODS-2 diskstructure, T the filename limits 39.39, i.e. 39 characters for the name and 39 for the extension.  V If you have an alpha and VMS 7.2 at miminum, you can convert a disk to ODS-5 structureT (set vol xxx /str=5). Then you can user so-called extended file specifications, thatR is a file name can be in total 236 8-bit or 118 16-bit characters (and can contain mostly any special characters).    -- :  - mit freundlichen Gruessen | with best regardsc   Karl Rohwedder                C iT-Ingenieurteam     | Ellernbruch 11       | D-38112 Braunschweig dA Telefon: 0531/515521 | Telefax: 0531/515531 | Mobil: 0172/5434843eH  E-Mail: rohwedder(at)decus.decus.de        | iT-IngTeam(at)t-online.de .          karl.rohwedder(at)it-ingenieurteam.de DATEX-P: 4505018005::ROHWEDDER   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 10:44:01 +0200g9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>o: Subject: Re: the number of caracters of the name of a file' Message-ID: <3D75C7D1.9A5AED91@aaa.com>    HI. . It's always nice to find someone "new in VMS".% Be sure, you'll see the light soon...1  . Goto to : "http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/"% Download the "OpenVMS Users Manual".0 Check page 3.3.c( There are all details about file naming.     Jan-Erik Sderholm.    David wrote: >  > Hellos > F > Im new in VMS but im trying to learn, thanks. My question is this: > G > Is posible to increase the number of caracters of the name of a file,tG > i have to put a name to a file that is longer than 25, can i do this?w >  > Thanks only for reading this.0   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:12:39 -0400* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: the number of caracters of the name of a file5 Message-ID: <vxod9.10289$H67.54091@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>i  - Good to hear there is some new people on VMS.s  $ Things that can't hurt, you can try.L Just create the file with a long file name, and see what it does. If it does not like it, VMS will tell you.7+ -SYSTEM-W-BADFILENAME, bad file name syntaxi  D Things you should NOT try and see what happens: INITIALIZE, DISMOUNT8 DEFINE/SYSTEM...etc  but harmless things, just try them!  # Others gave the info you requested.t --   SyltremWI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)m8 To reply to myself directly, remove zulu from my address  < "David" <ac.atn@sarenet.es> a crit dans le message de news:2 ee9e24f1.0209040014.521f7577@posting.google.com... > Hellom > F > Im new in VMS but im trying to learn, thanks. My question is this: >hG > Is posible to increase the number of caracters of the name of a file,2G > i have to put a name to a file that is longer than 25, can i do this?4 >l > Thanks only for reading this.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:30:40 GMTc$ From: "Bill Clark" <bclark@lrgh.org>* Subject: VAX / Network / Hardware questionA Message-ID: <AA4d9.132380$On.5330877@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,  	 greetings L     am chagrined to admit the following - i have inherited a VMS environment with 2 VAX 4000-705A'sL    and an AlphaServer 4100. miscellaneous hardware includes (not limited to) an older DEC WANServer 150. I     this unit is beginning to sound as if it's throwing a rod, and in theO* process of arranging a repair visit i haveE     concluded i have no idea what the thing is doing.  (blush).  it's % connected to a DELNI and an old CODEXTH     LSI 9600. i've scoured the prior occupants documents, looked through phone ~ network support bills,$     contracts, etc. with no results.K     how can this thing be 'talked to' - can it be MC NCP'ed? logged into inE any way?K     when the laughing stops i'd be grateful for any information ~ comments.  thanks.    bclark at lrgh dot org   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:26:49 -0500< From: "Stanley Reynolds" <nospam_stanley_reynolds@yahoo.com>. Subject: Re: VAX / Network / Hardware questionA Message-ID: <1y5d9.66508$vY2.1510572@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>a   > an older DEC WANServer 150. K >     this unit is beginning to sound as if it's throwing a rod, and in the , > process of arranging a repair visit i haveG >     concluded i have no idea what the thing is doing.  (blush).  it'sd' > connected to a DELNI and an old CODEX,  * The Wanserver 150 is like a DECrouter 250:  J They talk decnet (DDCMP) so you should look for a matching unit at anotherJ site. It could also talk to a PC running pathworks. The unit should have aJ high speed and a low speed port which one has the modem connected ? Is the other port connected ?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:42:29 -0500< From: "Stanley Reynolds" <nospam_stanley_reynolds@yahoo.com>. Subject: Re: VAX / Network / Hardware questionA Message-ID: <KM5d9.66660$vY2.1513126@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>e   P.S. look at :  ' www.compaq.com/info/SP3215/SP3215PF.PDFO   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 02:30:54 -0400  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>. Subject: Re: VAX / Network / Hardware question4 Message-ID: <1020904021537.416A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  + On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Stanley Reynolds wrote:b   > > an older DEC WANServer 150.aM > >     this unit is beginning to sound as if it's throwing a rod, and in the . > > process of arranging a repair visit i haveI > >     concluded i have no idea what the thing is doing.  (blush).  it'su) > > connected to a DELNI and an old CODEXi > , > The Wanserver 150 is like a DECrouter 250: > L > They talk decnet (DDCMP) so you should look for a matching unit at anotherL > site. It could also talk to a PC running pathworks. The unit should have aL > high speed and a low speed port which one has the modem connected ? Is the > other port connected ?  C I've not dealt with a WS150, but I have used DR250's.  Since no oneiA else has responded, I'll chip in.  You can connect to a DR250 and ? execute Decnet-IV style management commands with NCP.  You use:b  	 $ MCR NCPi7 NCP> set executive node DECRTR user foo password xxxxxx   D Where "DECRTR" is the node name (or address) of the router, "foo" isB an arbitrary user name (not used, but syntactically required), andD "xxxxxx" is the router's PRIVILEGED or NONPRIVILEGED password.  (The@ NONPRIV password allows you to look at stuff but not change it.)  G However, I think the difference between DECRouter-xxx and WANServer-XXX G is the software, with the WANServer software supporting DECnet Phase V.l@ If so, then WANServers may require NCL instead of NCP for remote management.    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 11:31:06 -0400  From: G Everhart <ge@gce.com>  Subject: VDdriver_64 synch bug& Message-ID: <3D76273A.4070108@gce.com>  K A synch bug in vddriver_64.mar (for alpha) has turned up, evidently an editoR error sometime that removed an .iff conditional. As a result the fixsplit: routine- does not fork and is at the wrong lock level.?  N I have sent vdd64.zip to Hunter Goatley who has it up now. I will try and postM the small edit necessary tonight if anyone does not want to grab the archive.r  M The error only affects alpha, and not all alpha drivers, but that one had thenT error and needs to be fixed. (The fork instruction is correctly in the vax drivers.)  M A somewhat faster version that uses some new features in VMS 7.2 and later is.H in the works also; vddriver64.mar is in the vdd64.zip archive. It uses aM completion facility that allows i/o posting to not have to take an extra triphS to IPL 4. Note though it has had only a tiny bit of testing as yet. vddriver_64.mariE has been running for years (the timing window induced is very small).n  / I advise fixing vddriver_64 immediately though.,   Glenn Everhart  (regrets for the inconvenience.)   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Sep 2002 07:37:15 -0700h% From: a.greig@virgin.net (Alan Greig) : Subject: VMS and HP (Was Re: Some interesting Linux Press)= Message-ID: <af3b9b31.0209040637.7ef2612d@posting.google.com>   ` Rex Ballard <rballard@open4success.com> wrote in message news:<ajr8hl$aao$1@bob.news.rcn.net>...   > cybear wrote: D > DEC is part of Compaq, but Compaq is now part of HP, which only a @ > few years ago decided that it was no longer cost-effective to ? > continue marketing their proprietary operating system on the nC > HP-3000 machines.  HP eventually provided the necessary APIs for L; > HP-UX and encouraged the migration of customers to HP_UX.y > C > It's very likely that HP will take a similar strategy with VMS.     A It's not surprising you believe this but its not what HP tell VMS D customers. Perhaps if HP tells everyone its serious about VMS people will start buying it again.R  B > Keep in mind that VMS migration from VAX to Alpha was extremely @ > expensive and pretty much led to the near bankruptcy of DEC.    E The costs of the VMS migration had nothing to do with it. VMS was and + remains an *extremely* profitable division.   F > Compaq purchased the company and agreed to support the existing new E > Alpha customers.  Both HP and DEC have opted to abandon their RISC  B > technologies and focus on the Intel Itanium chips in their next D > generation products.  Unfortunately, Intel has been dragging it's E > feet at effective delivery of any of their 64 bit lines.  Thus far e > they are about 3 years late. > D > VMS support was grandfathered into the DEC/Compaq merger, but may E > have been less critical in the Compaq/HP merger.  To HP, VMS isn't rF > a strategic product, and represents a substantial expense with very $ > little hope of significant return.  . Again not true but no surprise you think this.  B > Unless VMS customer suddenly perk up and start ordering massive = > quantities of new machines to replace or upgrade their old  A > machines, it's unlikely that HP will spend the $4-5 billion it s- > would cost to retool VMS to Merced/Itanium.t > F > Instead, a more practical approach might be to exploit the ports of E > RDB to UNIX, and port RMF, Bliss, and VaxBasic to UNIX.  It's much rB > easier to port API level libraries and even emulators, to UNIX, F > than to try and redesign VMS all the way down to the bloody guts of  > drive geometry management. > 9 > > this does not give me the warm and fuzzies about this F > > analysts understanding of the computer industry. I have no problem > > with the article.. > ? > Analysts very rarely have a really deep understanding of the  A > industry.  Niche markets like VMS tend to be very low profile, -   Agreed!-E > there has been very little in terms of press coverage, and most of lE > the VMS efforts have been in providing relatively light support to eE > existing users of VMS.  Most current VMS customers are quite happy eF > with their systems, the applications are relatively stable, and the D > niches where VMS is used tend not to be plagued with the types of D > scalability problems that tend to drive customers to UNIX systems. > F > In many cases, what scalability IS required, is simply offloaded to C > UNIX.  Many customers chose VMS to get good Oracle support, then IC > used the VMS programming interfaces to interface applications to  E > the database.  Those who used the Posix interfaces of OpenVMS have  D > a trivial effort to port to Oracle on UNIX, such as HP_UX.  Those B > who used BLISS, VaxBASIC, and other VMS-ONLY languages and APIs C > have essentially had to keep the VMS systems as a front-end, but a5 > connect to scalable UNIX databases on the back end.. > - > > It basically claims that people stay with F > > outdated systems because it costs too much to switch. But the costC > > of switching would apply to any switch and is hardly a knock onn
 > > Linux. > D > Converting an application from Windows to Linux isn't really that D > hard.  Typically both systems are well known, there are plenty of D > practitioners of both technologies, and most can be cross-trained F > quite easily.  Most Windows programmers are actually quite eager to A > be cross-trained in Linux and UNIX since the knowledge of both t9 > platforms increases their overall value (and paycheck).u > C > Converting MVS or VMS to UNIX is a bit more of a stretch.  There wF > are very few really highly skilled systems-level practitioners, and F > the majority of them are very close to retirement age.  Many of the F > better ones have been moved up the corporate ladder into management D > positions, and are less attached to the specific technology.  The > > remaining practitioners, especially the highly skilled ones F > required to do ports of this type, view their "mother system", as a C > form of Job Security.  They tend to be more inclined to sabotage fE > porting efforts than to aid them, and since they are the only ones l? > who know the intimate details of that company's applications eF > running on the niche operating systems, they really cannot be fired. > F > They also have very little desire to be retrained, since becoming a B > VB programmer, or a Windows programmer would merely make them a ? > commodoty.  Many niche consultants make 3-5 times what their ? > Windows counterparts make. > E > There is slighly more interest in learning UNIX, because knowledge  @ > of BOTH VMS and UNIX or MVS and UNIX can increase their value B > significantly.  On the other hand, helping management, or other F > consultants, convert a VMS system to an ALL UNIX system tends to be + > like asking them to dig their own graves.O >  > ? > > Many companies ARE finding it cost affective to switch fromw > > MS to Linux. > D > An many companies have found it cost effective to switch from VMS D > to Linux, or UNIX.  As I said before, there is intense resistance D > to porting the entire application to UNIX or Linux, but companies ? > have often found that they could extend the capabilities and $@ > performance of VMS applications at lower costs, by using UNIX B > "back-ends" for functions such as Relational Databases and ISAM. > D > In addition, there has been more effort to "contain the damage".  D > Rather than put a web server directly on the VMS system, they can E > use Apache on UNIX and have that system interact with VMS via DCE, aD > Message Queues, or CORBA.  Similar strategies have been used with F > MVS.  IBM even went so far as to combine MVS and UNIX into the same C > operating system with OS/390, to make the integration of the two d! > even easier and more effective.n > C > The irony is that it is now LINUX which has driven GROWTH in the   > Mainframe market.- > 5 > > How about saving $6 million by switching UNIX and7E > > Windows workstation with Linux systems run OpenOffice? Thats whatgF > > Verizons did. http://news.com.com/2100-1001-949913.html?tag=fd_top? > > The article also states that Air New Zealand saved money byeE > > switching to Linux. Hmmm, real world experience vs. the claims of 4 > > some analyst at IDC, what am I going to believe? > E > Actually, it has reached the point where the savings of converting w< > to Linux is actually quite well-known.  What is even more ? > interesting is that the long-term savings, AFTER the initial  B > savings based on the cost difference between Windows and Linux, 6 > have actually been GREATER than the initial savings. > = > This seems to be true for both Linux servers and for Linux  = > workstations.  While there are still many situations where tB > migration to Linux is still not easily feasable or economically D > practical, it's clear that the long-term benefits are pushing the  > momentum in Linux' direction.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:35:34 -0600: From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>r Subject: Re: VMS for i86& Message-ID: <3D74D6C6.4080305@srv.net>   Stanley F. Quayle wrote:0 > On 31 Aug 2002 at 16:01, Stuart Johnson wrote: > K >>Finally, for folks with fast PC's and little money, there are a couple ofnM >>VAX emulators that you might try; I have no experience with these but wouldo< >>like to hear from someone who has set one up from scratch. >  > F > CHARON-VAX is not for the "little money" crowd.  It's an industrial-G > strength emulator, including lots of hardware support, and is priced v > accordingly. > @ > There are at least 2 groups working on freeware VAX emulators. >   % Two of these simulators would be simha   	http://simh.trailing-edge.com/x   and TS10  # 	ftp://ftp.firesword7.net/pub/ts10/i  # Both capable of running VMS and BSDr   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Sep 2002 08:37:32 -0700l+ From: ghairst@mcvh-vcu.edu (G. W. Hairston) $ Subject: VMS Printing To CA/Dispatch= Message-ID: <1ef525c1.0209040737.4f1770b0@posting.google.com>:  E Currently we are looking at taking multiple vms reports from the vms  < systems over to mvs system and storing them in CA/Dispatch.   A How can we retrived the reports from dispatch and send them to a i# printer on the vms system directly.a   Thank you for your response.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Sep 2002 11:27:16 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)-( Subject: Re: VMS Printing To CA/Dispatch3 Message-ID: <nuP488bN0+c4@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  k In article <1ef525c1.0209040737.4f1770b0@posting.google.com>, ghairst@mcvh-vcu.edu (G. W. Hairston) writes:DG > Currently we are looking at taking multiple vms reports from the vms s> > systems over to mvs system and storing them in CA/Dispatch.  > C > How can we retrived the reports from dispatch and send them to a 3% > printer on the vms system directly.n  E I am fairly certain one of the SNA Gateway products from DEC provided 8 printing straight from MVS to a printer attached to VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 17:48:52 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>h( Subject: Re: VMS Printing To CA/Dispatch' Message-ID: <3D762B64.37058673@aaa.com>-  + I think the MVS system can do LPD printing.42 IF so, just setup printers on teh MVS systems that# points to queues on the VMS system.h   Jan-Erik Sderholm.g   "G. W. Hairston" wrote:1 > F > Currently we are looking at taking multiple vms reports from the vms= > systems over to mvs system and storing them in CA/Dispatch.  > B > How can we retrived the reports from dispatch and send them to a% > printer on the vms system directly.f >  > Thank you for your response.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.488 ************************ings, just try them!  # Others gave the info you requested.t --   SyltremWI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en fr@&    A&    B&    C&    D&    E&    F&    G&    H&    I&    J&    K&    L&    M&    N&    O&    P&    Q&    R&    S&    T&    U&    V&    W&    X&    Y&    Z&    [&    \&    ]&    ^&    _&    `&    a&    b&    c&    d&    e&    f&    g&    h&    i&    j&    k&    l&    m&    n&    o&    p&    q&    r&    s&    t&    u&    v&    w&    x&    y&    z&    {&    |&    }&    ~&    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &    &     '    '    '    '    '    '    '    '    '    	'    
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