1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 10 Sep 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 500       Contents:% AlphaServer 1200 VMS Disk recognition ) Re: AlphaServer 1200 VMS Disk recognition 	 RE: am/pm - Assistance Solicited - Petition for Candidacy 1 Re: Assistance Solicited - Petition for Candidacy 1 Re: Assistance Solicited - Petition for Candidacy  auto-negotiate+ Re: Burning an image with an unknown format + Re: Burning an image with an unknown format + Re: Burning an image with an unknown format  Re: Convert Blocks to MB RE: Convert Blocks to MB Re: Convert Blocks to MB Re: Convert Blocks to MB Re: Convert Blocks to MB Re: Convert Blocks to MB RE: Convert Blocks to MB RE: Convert Blocks to MB Re: Convert Blocks to MB Re: Convert Blocks to MB Re: Convert Blocks to MB Re: Convert Blocks to MB Re: Convert Blocks to MB% Re: Copy of OpenVMS hobbyist CD in UK A Re: Curly's wisdom on how to handle HP's Enterprise Systems Group A Re: Curly's wisdom on how to handle HP's Enterprise Systems Group A Re: Curly's wisdom on how to handle HP's Enterprise Systems Group A Re: Curly's wisdom on how to handle HP's Enterprise Systems Group A Re: Curly's wisdom on how to handle HP's Enterprise Systems Group A Re: Curly's wisdom on how to handle HP's Enterprise Systems Group # Re: DECserver and VMS installation? 1 disk sizes on VMS (was: RE: Convert Blocks to MB) 5 Re: disk sizes on VMS (was: RE: Convert Blocks to MB) 5 Re: disk sizes on VMS (was: RE: Convert Blocks to MB) 1 Re: Encompass - how long before I get a response? E Re: From the Peanut Gallery: (was Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly) ; Re: H-P's Bruce Perens Fired For Being Too Anti-Microsoft ? . Re: Hobbyist vs Startup Business and Licensing. Re: Hobbyist vs Startup Business and Licensing. Re: Hobbyist vs Startup Business and Licensing. Re: Hobbyist vs Startup Business and Licensing Re: ImageMagick freeware Re: ImageMagick freeware< lexicals (was: RE: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION)"@ Re: lexicals (was: RE: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION)"P Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!P Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!P Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!" Limit to number of classes in CMS?= Re: Micro$oft exec says all os's stink ... forgets about VMS! 8 Re: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!8 Re: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!8 Re: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!8 Re: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!8 Re: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns! Pathworks..  Re: Pathworks.. , Re: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION), Re: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION), Re: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION), Re: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION)A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? 8 Re: Size of I/O count fields in SHOW PROC and SHOW SYS ?- Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance  Re: The Gauntlet is Cast!  Re: The Gauntlet is Cast!  Re: The Gauntlet is Cast!  Re: The Gauntlet is Cast! A Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on A Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on A Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on K Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on  OpenVMS? F Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on VMS?@ Re: XFC V2.0 and VDDRIVER (was: RE: XFC v2 ECO, negative report)  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 06:59:12 -0700" From: zonle1@hotmail.com (Brandon). Subject: AlphaServer 1200 VMS Disk recognition= Message-ID: <c37e04b6.0209100559.164672f9@posting.google.com>   D I am working on a AlphaServer 1200 running OpenVMS 7.3.  There are 7B slots for disk drives.  Compaq recomends that the last slot not be' used.  I have the following disk setup:                       Disk Model#   DRA0:    9.1 Gig    DS-RZ1DF     DRA1:    2.1 Gig    DS-RZ1BB     DRA2:    2.1 Gig    DS-RZ1BB     DRA3:    2.1 Gig    DS-RZ1BB     DRA4:    9.1 Gig    DS-RZ1DB     DRA5:    2.1 Gig    DS-RZ1BB  C The problem is, DRA4 is not recognizing that the device is a 9.1 Gb C drive.  It shows up as one of the 2.1 Gb.  Documentation shows that D the model is supported.  I don't want to continue using this disk ifF it can not be utilized.  I am running out of space.  Thank you all for
 your help.   Brandon    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:18:22 +0100 * From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>2 Subject: Re: AlphaServer 1200 VMS Disk recognition, Message-ID: <alkuuj$14v8@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  / "Brandon" <zonle1@hotmail.com> wrote in message 7 news:c37e04b6.0209100559.164672f9@posting.google.com...     F > I am working on a AlphaServer 1200 running OpenVMS 7.3.  There are 7D > slots for disk drives.  Compaq recomends that the last slot not be) > used.  I have the following disk setup:  >   >                    Disk Model# >  DRA0:    9.1 Gig    DS-RZ1DF  >  DRA1:    2.1 Gig    DS-RZ1BB   ? Whoa, stop right there. You have a RAID controller in there and = the logical disks are one-to-one mapped with physical volumes  JBOD style? Are you sure?   = I'm assuming you have the PCI raid controller - I used to run 9 one on that model and they are a PITA. More detail on the  configuration would be helpful.    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Sep 02 14:42:18 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)  Subject: RE: am/pm) Message-ID: <vAliaj4Zh6aC@elias.decus.ch>   P In article <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D506B861@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>, 7 "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> writes: & > never been to Switzerland, have you? >   B You beat me to that :-) The bus stop I use on the way to work evenE has a display showing in how many minutes the next buses will arrive.    > -----Original Message-----C > From: Brian Tillman [mailto:tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com]  " > Sent: September 04, 2002 2:43 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > Subject: Re: am/pm >  > $ >>Same thing when I run for the bus. > J > It is an unusual bus system if 45 seconds either way makes a difference.. > What if the bus driver's watch is incorrect? > --C > Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com C > Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com ? > 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent > > Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@": >        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company >  >  > K > The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and L > confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s)N > named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agentH > responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, anyM > review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is L > strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contactF > the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of theJ > original message. Please note that for certain accounts we do not acceptM > orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and for those accounts we will not be N > responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions. Kindly refrainN > from sending orders or instructions by e-mail unless you have confirmed thatJ > we accept such communications for your account. Please also note that toL > satisfy regulatory requirements we review the outgoing and incoming e-mail< > correspondence of staff members serving certain functions. >  >  --   __
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:29:10 -0600 0 From: "Dale Coy" <dalecoy@obfuscation.spinn.net>6 Subject: Assistance Solicited - Petition for Candidacy+ Message-ID: <all36u$2gp$1@pith.uoregon.edu>   ? I hope you will pardon this intrusion in a technical Newsgroup. D I'm trying to contact as many Encompass members as possible.  If the	 following K strikes you as appropriate, please pass it along to other members you know,  and G take a couple of minutes to fax this request to Encompass headquarters.   . My name is Dale Coy.  Some of you may know me.  C I would like the privilege of running for election to the Encompass D Board of Directors. I submitted an application for consideration for' nomination, but I was not asked to run.   F Therefore, I am soliciting petitions from members in good standing, to@ be permitted to run as a candidate. To be allowed to run, I needF petitions numbering 15% of those members voting in the 2001 election -  I request and value your action.  ? Please send the following petition to Encompass headquarters by 
 September 20.   F The Petition should state: "As a member in good standing of Encompass,C I nominate Dale Coy, member 166993, for the 2003 Encompass Board of  Directors."   ? Please be sure that your name, company and signature are on the ! petition so they can be verified.   6 Petitions by e-mail will NOT be accepted by Encompass.  ( Petitions may be faxed to: 312-673-4609.  C Or mailed to: Encompass US Headquarters, 401 North Michigan Avenue,  22nd Floor, Chicago, IL 60611   
 Thank you.   Dale E. Coy   * dalecoy@spinn.net or coy@encompasserve.org  B Part of my qualifications are described below. Please feel free toF send e-mail, or ask publicly in this Newsgroup, if you have questions.  # ===================================   G I did my first computer work in 1958, and I'm currently a manager in an F organization using OpenVMS, StorageWorks, and Windows-centric desktops using Proliant servers.   B BS Electrical Engineering, MS Computer Science, CCP Certificate in0 Systems Programming since 1977, Vietnam veteran.  + Now, with the formalities out of the way...   E I've been active in User Groups since 1972 (CDC), and I'm currently a F member of Encompass and Interex. I've been a member of DECUS/EncompassE since 1982. Received a DECUS Outstanding Technical Contribution by an > Individual award in 1990, was part of the group that got DECUSE connected to the Internet and received an award in 1992, and received ? six certificates of appreciation for contributions to the DECUS  International Software Library.   C I am very proud of the DECUS/Digital Anniversary Award for Lifetime $ Achievement that I received in 1996.  9 As I moved around the country, I have been active in five F DECUS/Encompass LUGs, and am currently active in Encompass' Los Alamos LUG.  D Also, I've been active in SIGs. An early member of the OA SIG (laterF AIM and BOAIM), and of the VAX (later VMS) SIG, and participant in the PAGESWAPPER online forum.   C I was one of the first system managers of the OA SIG's OASIS online A conferencing forum - the first online forum in DECUS (1987) - and $ managed OASIS until its end in 1990.  E Having joined the DECUServe conferencing system in 1989, I became its D Manager of System in 1990, continuing to actively participate in the= management of the successor Encompasserve online system. I am H currently the Chair of the Encompasserve system. (www.encompasserve.org)  G I would like to return to Encompass a part of what has been given to me  by DECUS/Encompass in the past.    Thanks for your support!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:49:23 +0200 @ From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk>: Subject: Re: Assistance Solicited - Petition for Candidacy+ Message-ID: <3D7E2293.7010407@mail.tele.dk>    Dale Coy wrote:   E > I would like the privilege of running for election to the Encompass F > Board of Directors. I submitted an application for consideration for) > nomination, but I was not asked to run.  > H > Therefore, I am soliciting petitions from members in good standing, toB > be permitted to run as a candidate. To be allowed to run, I needH > petitions numbering 15% of those members voting in the 2001 election -" > I request and value your action.     ????   What ?  8 Are you saying the someone decides who is allowed to run> for the board and the rest has to get the equivalent to 1/6'th$ of votes just to be allowed to run ?  6 If that is the case, then it seems as a rather strange   flavour of democracy to me !   Arne  = PS: I am not a "DECUS" US member, so you can not use my vote.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:25:36 -0600 0 From: "Dale Coy" <dalecoy@obfuscation.spinn.net>: Subject: Re: Assistance Solicited - Petition for Candidacy+ Message-ID: <alla18$2s1$1@pith.uoregon.edu>   : "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk> wrote in message% news:3D7E2293.7010407@mail.tele.dk...  >  >  > What ? > : > Are you saying the someone decides who is allowed to run@ > for the board and the rest has to get the equivalent to 1/6'th& > of votes just to be allowed to run ?  G Yes, that is accurate.  Any member can (as I did) submit an application E to be nominated, and then be interviewed by the nominating committee. < It is my understanding that the nominating committee submits@ recommendations to the current Board of Directors, and the Board7 makes a final decision on who will be "asked to run" as  candidates.   < Those not slated by that process may try to petition for the; privilege of being a candidate.  It takes 15% of the number @ who voted in the last election.  In this case, since 286 members= voted last year, 43 petition signatures are required to allow  me to run this year.   > 8 > If that is the case, then it seems as a rather strange >  > flavour of democracy to me ! >   @ It's generally contained in the Encompass bylaws approved by the6 previous membership of DECUS US Chapter and adopted on7 November 21, 2000.  Of course, I'm aware that this does # not answer your (implied) question.   < Nor would it answer your question to mention that a petition: by 2.5% of the members can cause a vote on an amendment to; the bylaws.  [I have no idea how many people that would be]      > Arne > ? > PS: I am not a "DECUS" US member, so you can not use my vote.  >   & It's the thought that counts.  Thanks!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:47:46 +0200 , From: "Hamid Bourchi" <hbourchi@hotmail.com> Subject: auto-negotiate . Message-ID: <all474$ia4$1@odysseus.uci.kun.nl>   Hello,  2 How can i make sure that my network cart is set on6 auto-negotiate? Without rebooting my system of course. I couldn't find it in LANCP.   Regards,
 Hamid Bourchi    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 03:44:05 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 4 Subject: Re: Burning an image with an unknown format3 Message-ID: <3ViwjchhpAuF@eisner.encompasserve.org>   l In article <45126e60.0209091843.42145c8e@posting.google.com>, srp336@getcoactive.com (Steve Pfister) writes:H >> Tell it you want to burn a disc from an image (or ISO) file and point >> it at theB >> 7.2 image file. Hey Presto! That should be it, bootable on your3 >> MicroVAX (I assume you have a DEC CDROM drive).   > D > I renamed the file with a .iso extension (from .img) and burned itG > using Nero. There were no errors, but it doesn't boot (it halts a few G > seconds after it starts). Is there anyway to tell if there's anything G > on the disk using a w2k pc? I don't have a single working VMS machine  > at this point. > G > I also don't have a DEC CD drive. There was no CD in the machine, but " > I have an external drive or two.  ? Booting VMS requires a drive that can read in 512 bytes blocks. 2 DEC CDROM drives can do that.  Many others cannot.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 02:29:12 -0700$ From: issinoho@slayme.com (issinoho)4 Subject: Re: Burning an image with an unknown format= Message-ID: <d0141774.0209100129.54dfc47c@posting.google.com>    The same thing happened to me.  D Firstly, you can verify the image is a good one by either booting it= up on the Simh VAX simulator, or (quicker & dirtier) download B ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/ods2.zip and use it toE mount the CD on you W2k box (note: you MUST have a working ASPI layer D to use this program). You can even copy files from the CD to your PC hard drive!	  E Next, what kind of external CD-ROM do you have? In my experience, youn> really need a DEC drive for things to work smoothly. I have anA external SONY CDU-8012 single speed which works just fine (and iscD recognised correctly) when VMS is actually up and running, but won'tD boot the CD from the chevrons (lots of horrible sense errors and theF DK driver crashes). I bought an old DEC RRD42 and Whoosh! straight in.  q srp336@getcoactive.com (Steve Pfister) wrote in message news:<45126e60.0209091653.72523f7e@posting.google.com>...lb > "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote in message news:<ald1il$1nv6hh$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>...? > > "Steve Pfister" <srp336@getcoactive.com> schreef in berichtBO > > Perhaps it is a disk image file that may be used by a simulator, like simh.eL > > Does W2K report a single file, like VMS073.DSK and a size of 534.542 kB? > V > It's a single file...the name is hobbyist72.img and has a size of 681,578,496 bytes.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:24:37 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>y4 Subject: Re: Burning an image with an unknown format' Message-ID: <3D7E2226.8B3068FC@fsi.net>i   issinoho wrote:l >   > The same thing happened to me. > F > Firstly, you can verify the image is a good one by either booting it? > up on the Simh VAX simulator, or (quicker & dirtier) download D > ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/ods2.zip and use it toG > mount the CD on you W2k box (note: you MUST have a working ASPI layereF > to use this program). You can even copy files from the CD to your PC
 > hard drive!r  @ Given that WhineBloze does not provide RMS, however, I'd have toG question the value of that. Being able to understand the filesystem (nodH space between the words) is one thing. Being able to understand the file< system (space between the words) is something else entirely.  G > Next, what kind of external CD-ROM do you have? In my experience, you @ > really need a DEC drive for things to work smoothly. I have anC > external SONY CDU-8012 single speed which works just fine (and isEF > recognised correctly) when VMS is actually up and running, but won'tF > boot the CD from the chevrons (lots of horrible sense errors and theH > DK driver crashes). I bought an old DEC RRD42 and Whoosh! straight in.  E As Larry K. pointed out, you need a CD-ROM that can transfer 512 bytenG blocks. Check yours for jumpers. A simple adjustment may be all that isf	 required.r   --   David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemsf http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:56:07 +1200O From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz>E! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MBI3 Message-ID: <Lkjf9.5083$Y3.1000516@news.xtra.co.nz>   ? "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in messageo$ news:alj0t9$nit$4@web1.cup.hp.com...  < >     To convert OpenVMS disk blocks to (base two) kilobytes8 >     (KB; 1024 bytes), simply divide by two. To convert< >     blocks to (base two) megabytes, divide by 2048. Blocks6 >     to (base two) gigabytes (GB), divide by 2097152.  5 One can't help but wonder where the elementary schooli< math has gone ... After all, given that a block is 512 bytes: it should be rather easy to compute all the other numbers.  ; (</e> Whips out his calculator but, hold on, we are talking  computers already, right?)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:40:06 -0400 5 From: "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com>-! Subject: RE: Convert Blocks to MB-O Message-ID: <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D506B868@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>n  G I think you're being a bit to pedantic - the intent was probably so you.H could look at a "show device" listing and say - "ok that's a 4 Gig disk,J that's a 10 Gig disk, this disk has 1 Gig free" etc.  If not, I apologize.. If the intent was to write a program to do it  1 - yes you are right & 2 - there are plenty of them out there   -----Original Message-----7 From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net] S  Sent: September 09, 2002 9:05 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comg! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MB      briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:  > > > In article <3D7A19CC.8E3F9EA9@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" ! > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:s > > David Froble wrote:s > >> > >> David J. Dachtera wrote:s > >> > >> > Brian Tillman wrote:l > >> >E > >> >>>I checked the faq and it doesn't mention how to do this.  Is  H > >> >>>there a simple way to convert the block figures I get when I do 6 > >> >>>a "dir" to megabytes which is the way I think? > >> >>>H > >> >>Since each block is 0.5K, the arithmetic is straight forward.  A I > >> >>close approximation is to divide the number of blocks by 2000 and 5G > >> >>that's the megabytes.  For example, 2000 blocks is one megabyte.2 > >> >>g > >> > > >> > Oops! Try again!t > >> >) > >> > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ say 1024 * 1024s > >> > 1048576( > >> > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ say 512 * 2048 > >> > 1048576 > >> >G > >> > A megabyte is 2048 blocks, not 2000. Remember: machines deal in ZD > >> > powers of two, REGARDLESS of what the disk salesmen tell you! > >> >I > >> > Remember also that 1K = 1024 bytes. Therefore, 0.5K = 512 bytes =  * > >> > 1 block (one track for one sector). > >> > > >> > > >>F > >> Sorry, I'll go with Brian on this one.  Remember, he said "close D > >> approximation", and dividing by 2000 will get you close.  With G > >> people using x.xx GB, and many times ignoring the fractional part  ) > >> of the number, close seems to be Ok.h > >>E > >> Gee, is this the same Dave that was talking about precision and 2  > >> accuracy last evening?  :-) > >i& > > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ say 200000/2048 > > 97$ > > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ say 50000/512 > > 97 > >t$ > > WOW!!! 3% error in both cases!!! > >aI > > If that's "close" to you, I'd avoid working in either the financial, l9 > > healthcare or scientific industries, if I were you...i > - > Getting into this silly religious debate...  > H > There's close and there's close.  And even in finance, healthcare and  > science, 3% can be close.i  $ Sure, if the numbers are big enough.  F > In the health care field, deltas of well over 50% in pharmaceutical G > dosage are usually acceptable.  The concentration in the bloodstream  I > of oral antibiotics fluctuates wildly and the notion of managing it to  E > 3% accuracy using a twice-a-day prescription dispensed in standard   > tablets is simply ludicrous.  J Then again, as a chemist, one might be a bit concerned if tolerances startL to get into the 0.03% range, from what my friend in St. Louis tells me (he'sL been making radio-pharmaceuticals essentialy since got his PhD from MIT back circa. 1978 or so).d  I > In the financial community, we have estimates of net worth that can be e- > off by orders of magnitude.  (think Enron).i   Consider the impact.   >  The stock market A > can give you a value estimate that has three or four digits of nG > precision.  But a claim that stock price reflects true company value e4 > to within 3% accuracy would be dubious in general.  J ..as long as you're talking about the count of shares in total and not theL cash value of an individual share. An error of 3% multiplied by millions can3 be, well, "significant" hardly seems strong enough.e  C > In science, I really don't care if the gauge on that cylinder of aA > compressed helium reads 2900 or 3000 psi.  I've got a pressure  I > regulator on it and the thing I really I care about is not running out s, > of helium in the middle of the experiment.  K I think you might care if the concentration of a reagent in your process atrH x produces a useable product, but (x * 1.03) yields something that you'd, rather not have to report to the government.  B > In the field of computer system management, I usually find that F > accuracy within ten percent is plenty good enough.  If I have an 18 H > gig drive with 12 gig used by project A, 2 gig used by project B, and  > 4 gig of free space, ...  I Now, multiply those values by 100 and see what your 3% error does to youro hardware budget...  . > it really doesn't matter to me whether those1 > figures are disk megabytes or memory megabytes.   < A megabyte is a megabyte is a megabyte is a megabyte is a...  , Machines deal in powers of two. Get over it.  K ..or even better: miscalculate the size of your Oracle global memory regionuK by using decimal instead of binary and then try to figure out why you can't 9 get your database loaded into memory like it needs to be.r   > Truncation versus  > rounding is a bigger concern.e  G Indeed. Rounding you can live with: 8.5GB rounded up to 9GB will work. tE If you need 8.5GB, but you calculate that as 8.5 times (1024 * 1000 *sJ 1000) (i.e., "truncate" it) instead of 8.5 * 1024 * 1024 * 1024, you'll doJ much head-scratching wondering why an 8.5GB area won't fit into the memoryL you've made available for it: 8,704,000,000 bytes. (Hint: it really requires 9,126,805,504 bytes.)    -- m David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  H Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    I The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and,J confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s)L named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agentF responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, anyK review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is=J strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contactD the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of theH original message. Please note that for certain accounts we do not acceptK orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and for those accounts we will not beaL responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions. Kindly refrainL from sending orders or instructions by e-mail unless you have confirmed thatH we accept such communications for your account. Please also note that toJ satisfy regulatory requirements we review the outgoing and incoming e-mail: correspondence of staff members serving certain functions.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 08:22:12 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MBL3 Message-ID: <nTj1k3fVSSQ+@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  [ In article <3D7D4ADD.45E7B55D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:rA > "Approximation" in this case means "error". The difference *IS*t > significant!  ( No.  That statement is false in general.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:14:49 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>i! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MBt' Message-ID: <3D7E1FDC.A458E892@fsi.net>l   briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:t > ] > In article <3D7D4ADD.45E7B55D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:UC > > "Approximation" in this case means "error". The difference *IS*n > > significant! > * > No.  That statement is false in general.  F Specify. (Hint: Review the other recent messages in this thread before responding.)  4 There *ARE* cases where 3% error is quite tolerable.  ' Unfortunately, this is not one of them.e  & Here's another example from real-life:  9 See http://www.djesys.com/vms/hobbyist/support.html#cworb-  B Quoting: "The Castlewood Orb drive is a 3-1/2 removeable cartridgeE drive. The Orb is a true hard disk and employs MR (magneto-resistive)eA technology. Current storage capacity of an Orb cartridge is 2.2GB.E unformatted, approximately 2.05GBF (ODS) (7304184 blocks, clustersize  5)."  A Actually, that's misworded. Orb is touted as 2.2GB. The formattednC capacity as somewhat less, naturally, but this was unexpected, even ? given that I'd done similar calculations for Zip drives and wasn) surprised by the reality of them as well.a  3 So, that's 2.2GB versus 2.05GBF. That's a 7% error!   ) Are we starting to get "significant" yet?i  ? Did y'ever notice that "9GB" drives like RZ40, etc. really only < INITIALIZE to about 8.47GBF on VMS? (That's a 6% deviation.)   -- n David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:19:52 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>-! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MBe' Message-ID: <3D7E2109.3E952D8F@fsi.net><  	 AG wrote:c > A > "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in messagei& > news:alj0t9$nit$4@web1.cup.hp.com... > > > >     To convert OpenVMS disk blocks to (base two) kilobytes: > >     (KB; 1024 bytes), simply divide by two. To convert> > >     blocks to (base two) megabytes, divide by 2048. Blocks8 > >     to (base two) gigabytes (GB), divide by 2097152. > 7 > One can't help but wonder where the elementary schoola> > math has gone ... After all, given that a block is 512 bytes< > it should be rather easy to compute all the other numbers. > = > (</e> Whips out his calculator but, hold on, we are talkingb > computers already, right?)  A It should be obvious. Where the confusion arises is when we starthI talking about KB (1024B) versus kB (1000B), MB (1024^2B versus 1000^2B), e% GB (1024^3 versus 1000^3B) and so on.g  F The disk salesmen want you to believe that their product provides moreB storage than it really does. So, they play on the public's lack ofE understanding of the different between k and K (or K versus "M" as in E the French "mille", frequently taken as 1000 decimal in non-computingf frames of reference), etc.   -- r David J. Dachterah dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:52:06 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>i! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MBu' Message-ID: <3D7E2896.C93618B9@fsi.net>    briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:a > ] > In article <3D7D4ADD.45E7B55D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: C > > "Approximation" in this case means "error". The difference *IS*- > > significant! > * > No.  That statement is false in general.  @ Some commercial aircraft are capable of being flown to a landingH entirely on automation (or so I am told, I've been out of aviation sinceH the early 90's). Given that, if a plane leaves New York for Honolulu andG the inertial guidance system commits an aggregate error of 3% en route,-E instead of landing in Honolulu, I should think that one would need tolH remember that one's seat cushion can also be used as a flotation device.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/c   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:08:17 -0400n5 From: "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com>a! Subject: RE: Convert Blocks to MB O Message-ID: <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D506B871@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>   K I still content that "geff" should comment on his intent.  If he just wantsoK a quick eyeball approx. then the approximation is ok.  If he wants an exact I value, then even your value is incorrent, due to slack space in allocatedn
 blocks :-)     -----Original Message-----7 From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net] E! Sent: September 10, 2002 12:52 PMm To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comx! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MB      briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:  > > > In article <3D7D4ADD.45E7B55D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" ! > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: D > > "Approximation" in this case means "error". The difference *IS*  > > significant! > * > No.  That statement is false in general.  L Some commercial aircraft are capable of being flown to a landing entirely onF automation (or so I am told, I've been out of aviation since the earlyK 90's). Given that, if a plane leaves New York for Honolulu and the inertial/E guidance system commits an aggregate error of 3% en route, instead of H landing in Honolulu, I should think that one would need to remember that: one's seat cushion can also be used as a flotation device.   -- e David J. Dachteran dba DJE SystemsR http://www.djesys.com/  H Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    I The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged andsJ confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s)L named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agentF responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, anyK review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication isgJ strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contactD the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of theH original message. Please note that for certain accounts we do not acceptK orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and for those accounts we will not belL responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions. Kindly refrainL from sending orders or instructions by e-mail unless you have confirmed thatH we accept such communications for your account. Please also note that toJ satisfy regulatory requirements we review the outgoing and incoming e-mail: correspondence of staff members serving certain functions.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:05:36 -0400v; From: "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>h! Subject: RE: Convert Blocks to MB K Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E49028BEA90@rlghncst964.usps.gov>d  3 Salesdroids use 1000s for the sake of enhancement, S- engineers use 1024s for the sake of accuracy.g   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----8 From: "David J. Dachtera" [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net]* Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:19 PM To: "Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com" ! Subject: RE: Convert Blocks to MBn    	 AG wrote:e >hA > "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in messagep& > news:alj0t9$nit$4@web1.cup.hp.com... >t> > >     To convert OpenVMS disk blocks to (base two) kilobytes: > >     (KB; 1024 bytes), simply divide by two. To convert> > >     blocks to (base two) megabytes, divide by 2048. Blocks8 > >     to (base two) gigabytes (GB), divide by 2097152. >V7 > One can't help but wonder where the elementary schoolr> > math has gone ... After all, given that a block is 512 bytes< > it should be rather easy to compute all the other numbers. > = > (</e> Whips out his calculator but, hold on, we are talking5 > computers already, right?)  A It should be obvious. Where the confusion arises is when we start-H talking about KB (1024B) versus kB (1000B), MB (1024^2B versus 1000^2B),% GB (1024^3 versus 1000^3B) and so on.p  F The disk salesmen want you to believe that their product provides moreB storage than it really does. So, they play on the public's lack ofE understanding of the different between k and K (or K versus "M" as intE the French "mille", frequently taken as 1000 decimal in non-computinge frames of reference), etc.   -- David J. Dachtera  dba DJE SystemsS http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 12:14:03 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MBm3 Message-ID: <Luv3INlqkaTE@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  [ In article <3D7E1FDC.A458E892@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:p  u6 > There *ARE* cases where 3% error is quite tolerable.  F    There are cases where three orders of magnitude is considered good,4    and cases where 10E-6 is considered "acceptable".  G    They both have to be justified, and once justified other "standards"7    do not apply.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:12:25 +0000 (UTC)e+ From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)l! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MBn+ Message-ID: <all95p$i37$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   [ In article <3D7E1FDC.A458E892@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:o  >briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: >>  ^ >> In article <3D7D4ADD.45E7B55D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:D >> > "Approximation" in this case means "error". The difference *IS* >> > significant!o >> u+ >> No.  That statement is false in general.e >mG >Specify. (Hint: Review the other recent messages in this thread befored
 >responding.)  >d5 >There *ARE* cases where 3% error is quite tolerable.s > ( >Unfortunately, this is not one of them. >>' >Here's another example from real-life:> >h: >See http://www.djesys.com/vms/hobbyist/support.html#cworb >>C >Quoting: "The Castlewood Orb drive is a 3-1/2 removeable cartridge F >drive. The Orb is a true hard disk and employs MR (magneto-resistive)B >technology. Current storage capacity of an Orb cartridge is 2.2GBF >unformatted, approximately 2.05GBF (ODS) (7304184 blocks, clustersize >5)."> >t  I Marketing has long replaced the 1024 KB = 1MB with 1000 KB = 1Mb for disk  drives.>  5 Here is a table from a posting on this issue in 1997 a   "49 Here's a table of some Digital drives I have access to...   G  Disk        MB (using 1000)      MB (using 1024)      According to DEC   C  RZ23             104                   100                  104 MBtC  RZ25             426                   406                  426 MB2C  RZ26L           1050                  1001                 1.05 GBoC  RZ55             332                   316                  332 MBoC  RZ57            1000                   954                 1.0  GBdC  RZ58            1381                  1317                 1.38 GBdC  RZ28            2104                  2007                 2.1  GB     K  It's not just DEC though, for my Seagate drive:       According to Seagatee  C ST51080N         1080                  1030                 1080 MBT  F   So, it does seem as those disks are treated differently than memory.   "t  3 For the posting and the thread it is part of see :-a  c http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=5q4dms%2493c%40gap.cco.caltech.edue    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University      B >Actually, that's misworded. Orb is touted as 2.2GB. The formattedD >capacity as somewhat less, naturally, but this was unexpected, even@ >given that I'd done similar calculations for Zip drives and was* >surprised by the reality of them as well. >.4 >So, that's 2.2GB versus 2.05GBF. That's a 7% error! >i* >Are we starting to get "significant" yet? >i@ >Did y'ever notice that "9GB" drives like RZ40, etc. really only= >INITIALIZE to about 8.47GBF on VMS? (That's a 6% deviation.)  >a >--  >David J. Dachtera >dba DJE Systems >http://www.djesys.com/t >h) >Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:o  >http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 12:34:20 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MBf3 Message-ID: <rYBShXxuZTY7@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  [ In article <3D7E1FDC.A458E892@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:m! > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:f >>  ^ >> In article <3D7D4ADD.45E7B55D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:D >> > "Approximation" in this case means "error". The difference *IS* >> > significant!t >> a+ >> No.  That statement is false in general.. > H > Specify. (Hint: Review the other recent messages in this thread before > responding.)  A I looked.  The context indicates that I haven't missed the point.    I have three files.u   File A: 2000 blocksi File B: 2048 blockse File C: 1953 blocks   1 I have three formulas for file size in megabytes:t   A: diskblocks/2000 B: diskblocks/2048 C: diskblocks*512/1,000,000a  B I read your position in this thread as having two distinct claims:  < 1.  Only file B is one megabyte.  In the field of computers,)     only binary megabytes are acceptable.   D 2.  Only formula B is correct.  The other formulas are erroneous and?     the margin of error is always significant regardless of the1<     context in which the formulas are used and regardless of7     whether the result is labelled as an approximation.l  E I would like to think that this is mere caricature, but your postingsb indicate otherwise.l   My counter claims are:  A 1.  Both decimal megabytes and binary megabytes are acceptible ine     the field of computing.a  B 2.  All three files are one megabyte in size.  Or close enough for     many purposes.  @ 3.  All three formulas give file size in megabytes and are close     enough for most purposes.y  ;     If you want convenience, formula A is the clear winner.o  @     If you want better than 2 sig fig accuracy then you'd betterB     figure out which megabyte you're talking about before deciding+     which of the other two formulas to use.n   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:54:15 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MBa, Message-ID: <3D7E31BE.7B87C00D@videotron.ca>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:B > Some commercial aircraft are capable of being flown to a landing > entirely on automation b  L Not quite correct. CAT III landings do allow the landing sequence to be madeN without pilot intervention for the final phase. (The goal is to allow landingsN in pea soup fog with little visibility). It requires enhanced equipment on theH runway and certification of the plane. And it takes a lot of work by theL pilots to set it up and first put the plane in the right heading/location to intercept the ILS beacon.y  L Think of it as typing  one very long BACKUP commamd with lots of qualifiers,% and then letting BACKUP do the rest.      J > the early 90's). Given that, if a plane leaves New York for Honolulu andI > the inertial guidance system commits an aggregate error of 3% en route,cG > instead of landing in Honolulu, I should think that one would need tosJ > remember that one's seat cushion can also be used as a flotation device.  K Except that a plane would also likely home in on ground based VOR and othereN nagigation aids, and those would gradually adjust the course to a correct one,* so the plane woudl still land at honolulu.  L If, over a period of time, you monitor your disk usage with rough estimates,K you should still be able to detect a significant trend, at which point, you0K may take out the artillery (calculator) and make more precise calculations.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:02:11 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MBt, Message-ID: <3D7E3399.7334D2E4@videotron.ca>  ( I think that there are two issues here^:  M blocks_used/total blocks  gives me percentage of utilisation which is a great-5 metric to monitor movement/trend is disk utilisation.m  N But when i want  to ftp an episode of Star Trek Enterprise to my disk drive, IN am told it is 80 megs, and I must then use a calculator to calculate what thatB represents in blocks to make sure it can fit on my VMS hard drive.  N Similarly, if I need to download a 15,000 block file to some remote web serverS which has disk quotas known in megabytes, I must know how many megs this represent.   N In the days of DECnet with all nodes being VMS, the "blocks"  was not an issueN because you were comparing apples to apples throughout your network. But theseL days, you have a variety of disk usage counts from MB to bytes to blocks, soP VMS must be a bit more versatile because it interacts with heterogenous systems.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Sep 02 14:13:39 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) . Subject: Re: Copy of OpenVMS hobbyist CD in UK) Message-ID: <1fg3dqIQAipR@elias.decus.ch>e  f In article <Xns9284458EB740Aacsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>, "-Andy-" <acs@fcgnet.works.net> writes:9 > p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) enlightened us with 3 > news:$Hv26XZS0Vmk@elias.decus.ch on 09 Sep 2002: a >  > > >> Having taken the time to compose a considered reply to your< >> email address (off topic, so I went the private route), I >> received this:  >> o >>   --Failed delivery to:" >>   Address: acs@fcgnet.works.net >>   Status:  no such host > 8 > Ahh.... that would be the "extra period" spam defense.= > (Though I seemed to have the same problem with your addressy > this morning also....) > : Thanks for letting me know, but I can't reproduce that :-)     __
 Paul Sture Switzerlanda   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:24:58 GMTp# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>oJ Subject: Re: Curly's wisdom on how to handle HP's Enterprise Systems GroupJ Message-ID: <_gnf9.154711$GK2.121372@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  3 "Greg Cagle" <gregc@gregcagle.com> wrote in messageV) news:unqvl7gb4orva0@corp.supernews.com...  > Jerry Leslie wrote:i4 > > Terry C. Shannon (terryshannon@attbi.com) wrote:: > > : Only 199 to go! That'll pay for a lot of peecee ads. > > :a > > : What cretins!  > > :.L > > Perhaps the apparent firing of Bruce Perens for being too anti-MicrosoftF > > and too pro-Linux is meant to send a message to the non-Wintel H-P staff... >tF > The issues were not that simple. Perens had made things a little hot> > for himself in a number of areas, not just by being anti-MS.    K Without knowing Mr. Perens or the situation he found himself in/created for)K himself or was thrust upon him, I can offer the following observation based). on nothing more than failings of human nature:  @ If Mr. Perens was seen as too strident a voice for Linux, a.k.a.J Anti-Microsoft, and that message was being received 'too well' internally,L then it would appear to some with thin skins that Mr. Perens was criticizingI the decisions of those much higher up the corporate food chain. PerceivedDF insubordination is never well received by management. Far too often itH becomes a case of "let's shoot the messenger", rather than examining the4 reasons for the message existing in the first place.    J Sounds awfully close to the VMS experience for those who promote VMS, both? within the companies that have owned VMS, and within customers.c   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:53:48 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> J Subject: Re: Curly's wisdom on how to handle HP's Enterprise Systems Group, Message-ID: <3D7E158B.474A5CA8@videotron.ca>   Jerry Leslie wrote:mJ > Perhaps the apparent firing of Bruce Perens for being too anti-MicrosoftM > and too pro-Linux is meant to send a message to the non-Wintel H-P staff...t > = >    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/09/technology/09SOFT.htmla  K I have a feeling that the microsoft weenies at HP are proud of this articleoH which shows how succesful they are from their point of view and HP would0 proudly send this article their good uncle Bill.  K Meanwhile, the non-microsoft weenies are probably ashamed of HP's behaviourl% and the fact that it was made public.w  K I, for one, am neither surprised nor disapointed. Such behaviour is exactly 2 the type of things that I expect HP/Compaq  to do.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:57:45 -04002- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>0J Subject: Re: Curly's wisdom on how to handle HP's Enterprise Systems Group, Message-ID: <3D7E1677.D5E3A2C3@videotron.ca>   Greg Cagle wrote:iF > The issues were not that simple. Perens had made things a little hot> > for himself in a number of areas, not just by being anti-MS.  N But HP has just lost a certain amount of credibility in whatever Linux effortsJ it has had so far and will have in the short term. What the New York TimesL says is far more important for HP's corporate image than what truly happened behind closed doors.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2002 00:10:09 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>J Subject: Re: Curly's wisdom on how to handle HP's Enterprise Systems Group- Message-ID: <87y9a9ygf2.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  ) David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes:n  D > Bill Gates falls in a pool.  He swims to the surface for more air,( > then swims to the side and climbs out.  7 If anyone finds the pool, will they please call back :)a   -- r< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.i@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:54:27 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>oJ Subject: Re: Curly's wisdom on how to handle HP's Enterprise Systems Group' Message-ID: <3D7E2927.673A6BD2@fsi.net>n   JF Mezei wrote:g >  > Jerry Leslie wrote:eL > > Perhaps the apparent firing of Bruce Perens for being too anti-MicrosoftO > > and too pro-Linux is meant to send a message to the non-Wintel H-P staff...a > >n? > >    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/09/technology/09SOFT.htmle > M > I have a feeling that the microsoft weenies at HP are proud of this article J > which shows how succesful they are from their point of view and HP would2 > proudly send this article their good uncle Bill. > M > Meanwhile, the non-microsoft weenies are probably ashamed of HP's behaviouru' > and the fact that it was made public.u > M > I, for one, am neither surprised nor disapointed. Such behaviour is exactlyt4 > the type of things that I expect HP/Compaq  to do.  C I sense Bill Todd quietly nodding, a look of disgust on his face...-   -- - David J. Dachtera1 dba DJE Systems3 http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:51:54 -0700s& From: Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com>J Subject: Re: Curly's wisdom on how to handle HP's Enterprise Systems Group/ Message-ID: <uns8p2huc59248@corp.supernews.com>J   JF Mezei wrote:: > Greg Cagle wrote:] > F >>The issues were not that simple. Perens had made things a little hot> >>for himself in a number of areas, not just by being anti-MS. >  > P > But HP has just lost a certain amount of credibility in whatever Linux effortsL > it has had so far and will have in the short term. What the New York TimesN > says is far more important for HP's corporate image than what truly happened > behind closed doors.  E Oh, I agree. The spin in the article is quite different than reality,5E based on the conversations I have had with Bruce and Martin Fink (hishB manager) over the course of his HP career. Maybe that's the way it? feels to Bruce now, but there was a lot more going on than justh MS bigotry.a   -- r
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 02:43:20 -0700$ From: issinoho@slayme.com (issinoho), Subject: Re: DECserver and VMS installation?= Message-ID: <d0141774.0209100143.290e1dff@posting.google.com>s  D I have a copy of layered products from some years ago, I'll check to; see if the image is on there. Where do you want it sent to?e  c jkclausen@yahoo.com (John Clausen) wrote in message news:<7I7f9.422$ww3.167997@news.randori.com>...n# > Thank you very much for the help.r > ' > I do not have the Layered Product CD.t: > Is there anywhere I can download the PR0801ENG.SYS file? >  > Thanks again,o >  > John Clausen > N > In article <alitcr$1q9mos$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>, hvlems@iae.nl says... > >6 > >r: > >"John Clausen" <jkclausen@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht0 > >news:p_2f9.417$ww3.152440@news.randori.com...G > >> Hello, I hope this is not off topic, but I am running VMS 7.2 on ad >  4000/60. = > >> I also have a DECserver 200/MC that I would like to use.  > >>M > >> Where would I find some good documentation on setting up this DECserver? C > >> Also, is the software image it is looking for included in VMS?. > >>$ > >> Thanks in advance for the help, > >uH > >Your setup is similar to mine, but I have a DS100. You need to do two
 > >things: > >,O > >- get the load host file for the DS200, IIRC it is called PR0801ENG.SYS (the 2 > >DS100 uses a file that is called PS0801ENG.SYS)E > >- make sure LANCP is running (i.e. put @sys$startup:lan$startup in 1 > >systartup_vms.com) and configure it like this:o > >i
 > >$ mc lancpv6 > >lancp>define node ds200/address=08-00-2b-11-22-33 -@ > >            /boot_type=other/file=PR0801ENG.SYS/root=MOM$LOAD > >$ reply/enable=netc > >eJ > >At this point power up the DS200, make sure you have a transceiver withO > >heartbeat enabled and watch it load. The on-board HELP is of typical Digitale3 > >quality, hardly any need for additional manuals.* > >c > >Hanse > >r   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:22:24 +0100 (MET)'9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>s: Subject: disk sizes on VMS (was: RE: Convert Blocks to MB); Message-ID: <01KMCFR5DCGW9QVJI2@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   A > Did y'ever notice that "9GB" drives like RZ40, etc. really onlyn> > INITIALIZE to about 8.47GBF on VMS? (That's a 6% deviation.)  H This might be a different thing, though: I have a couple of Seagate 9GB H drives which show up as less under VMS, but at the nominal size (so I'm A told) on other operating systems.  (Work fine otherwise, though.)i   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:09:00 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>4> Subject: Re: disk sizes on VMS (was: RE: Convert Blocks to MB)' Message-ID: <3D7E2C90.C69FD79C@fsi.net>    Phillip Helbig wrote:  > C > > Did y'ever notice that "9GB" drives like RZ40, etc. really only @ > > INITIALIZE to about 8.47GBF on VMS? (That's a 6% deviation.) > I > This might be a different thing, though: I have a couple of Seagate 9GB I > drives which show up as less under VMS, but at the nominal size (so I'm C > told) on other operating systems.  (Work fine otherwise, though.)   G Use the DIR (DOS, Win, CMD) command or something that actually displays H the free byte count, divide it by powers of two and see what you come up( as the GBF as viewed by non-VMS o.s.-es.   -- h David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 12:16:07 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)C> Subject: Re: disk sizes on VMS (was: RE: Convert Blocks to MB)3 Message-ID: <AA6vkczxzay$@eisner.encompasserve.org>w  w In article <01KMCFR5DCGW9QVJI2@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:rB >> Did y'ever notice that "9GB" drives like RZ40, etc. really only? >> INITIALIZE to about 8.47GBF on VMS? (That's a 6% deviation.)a > J > This might be a different thing, though: I have a couple of Seagate 9GB J > drives which show up as less under VMS, but at the nominal size (so I'm C > told) on other operating systems.  (Work fine otherwise, though.)o  C    I've got three sizes of "1GB" drives on my hobby system at home,/.    according to f$getdvi("drive","maxblock") .   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 07:35:14 -0700- From: jodonnell@hrblock.com (Jason O'Donnell)@: Subject: Re: Encompass - how long before I get a response?= Message-ID: <9059bf6b.0209100635.3e22fc91@posting.google.com>   g "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<Itcf9.370194$me6.42316@sccrnsc01>...j2 > "NetBoot" <netboot@netboot.com> wrote in message1 > news:MPG.17e2da227616fe5a98971b@news.ptd.net...>E > > I've signed up for Encompass Tuesday.  How does it take to get an , > > account and what should I do if I don't? > C > I would join INTEREX. Thirty bucks a year AND you get a magazine!c   I have not seen the magazine.i   The website has:  D "Interex, the International Association of Hewlett-Packard ComputingF Professionals, is an independent, not-for-profit association providingE information, education, and advocacy services to members all over theu world."n  ? Will they compete for membership with Encompass by covering DECsD specific information or will Interex leave the DEC specific stuff to
 Encompass?  F I do not see a need to be in both for OpenVMS.  One or the other would! be preferrable.  Will they merge?y   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:39:01 GMTs1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>eN Subject: Re: From the Peanut Gallery: (was Re: HP-Compaq Merger Went Smoothly), Message-ID: <pRkf9.63664$Jo.11528@rwcrnsc53>  & "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message, news:XYBd9.3542$Y3.549795@news.xtra.co.nz...> > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message9 > news:bf5c9.66913$kp.721815@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.... >  > > from folks who are not HPe6 > > customers and have no vested interest in VMS, etc. >s4 > From Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary: >aA > "vest'ed in'terest, 1. a special reason interest in an existingo= > system, arrangement, or institution for particular personalb
 > reasons" > / > Did it mention being an HP customer anywhere?J  L Nope. HP didn't exist when Webster penned his lexicon. I presume he used IBM	 gear. ;-}m   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 09:09:09 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)cD Subject: Re: H-P's Bruce Perens Fired For Being Too Anti-Microsoft ?= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0209100809.4ef5cb97@posting.google.com>o  t LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie) wrote in message news:<WR3f9.241111$Yd.9565345@twister.austin.rr.com>...C > Could being too anti-Microsoft be hazard to one's career at H-P ?i  E I suspect that his earlier plan to publicly commit civil disobedience ? under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act's prohibition against F reverse-engineering copy-protection schemes (see the InfoWorld articleH at http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/07/23/020723hnperens.xml)A had much more to do with HP's concerns than his Linux advocacy orh being anti-Microsoft.a. ----------------------------------------------. Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Sep 02 14:08:01 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)r7 Subject: Re: Hobbyist vs Startup Business and Licensingd) Message-ID: <xD8i3CD5Rhvx@elias.decus.ch>k  w In article <01KMALEN2B829OCZIZ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes: G >> A very valid point. It is crazy that I have an Alpha at home capableyJ >> of doing serious work (and yes, it's faster and has more memory than myJ >> system at work), yet if I wish to write some commercial software I need >> to fire up NT, Linux or Mac.c >> aB >> I see a valid case for some type of "startup" license to targetC >> small business users, starting with someone like me or yourself, E >> who would like to develop some useful software for VMS, running upoC >> to a small company using it for useful things like stock controlo >> and invoicing.e > D > I have voiced this desire here from time to time, in less or more 	 > detail.k > C >> Let me put it another way. Let's leave all this image processingiB >> and freeware stuff to the Open Source folks. Instead let us getC >> on with true business applications, but at a price we can afford  >> as startup types. >  > That is the market.  >e   Indeed.o  aF >> An example. I would be quite happy to pay <put what you can afford>@ >> into the VMS maintenance pot in return for the ability to useG >> my system commercially. No big bucks for the moment, but potentiallyeD >> a lot more. If it doesn't turn into big money, at least I had theB >> chance to give it a go, and meanwhile Compaq/HP have made a bit9 >> of money I would likely not spend with them otherwise.u > G > My suggestion: 10% of the after-tax profit.  This is something every  K > business should be able to afford (and would be deductible as an expense  I > before paying taxes).  If this becomes more than a commercial license, lI > the business can and should buy a commercial license.  Perhaps a token 2 > minimum fee of, say, $100. >   D I like that idea very much. It doesn't address the case of the smallF business making widgets, who wants to run their operations on VMS, but it's an excellent start.    H > It's going to bring in SOME revenue, even if none of these businesses H > gets off the ground, and it's going to bring in MORE revenue since it 4 > will take ZERO sales from other types of licenses. > F >> Yes, I know I should consider the CSA thingy, but from memory, thatE >> still does not allow me to run applications on a commercial basis.. > F > That's for folks who DEVELOP commercial apps, not for folks who use  > them.  :-)   __
 Paul Sture Switzerland-   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Sep 02 14:58:40 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)y7 Subject: Re: Hobbyist vs Startup Business and Licensing ) Message-ID: <zsWbGsen8lH4@elias.decus.ch>.  g In article <3D7CDE21.25532168@blueyonder.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:@ >  >  > Paul Sture wrote:r >> lB >> I see a valid case for some type of "startup" license to targetC >> small business users, starting with someone like me or yourself, E >> who would like to develop some useful software for VMS, running upnC >> to a small company using it for useful things like stock controld >> and invoicing.o >> tC >> Let me put it another way. Let's leave all this image processingaB >> and freeware stuff to the Open Source folks. Instead let us getC >> on with true business applications, but at a price we can afforde >> as startup types. >> oF >> An example. I would be quite happy to pay <put what you can afford>@ >> into the VMS maintenance pot in return for the ability to useG >> my system commercially. No big bucks for the moment, but potentiallytD >> a lot more. If it doesn't turn into big money, at least I had theB >> chance to give it a go, and meanwhile Compaq/HP have made a bit9 >> of money I would likely not spend with them otherwise.c >>   >  > Paul,n > G > Yes, this has been my point for a long time. Actually, I now have got E > VMS hobbyist running under ts10 on my linux box. I have VMS runningn > on Wintel! > D Excellent. I had a bash with Charon VAX when it was first available,? but the cost of even the Personal License was too steep for me.   O > I quite like the idea of a low cost Small Bizness VMS licence without supportu > or warranty.G > Maybe make it VAX only (how fast is ts10 on the latest Pentium box?),R< > but I'd prefer to be able to use cheap/old alphas as well. > L > Provide the same licences as hobbyiest program. ie let people who know howO > really develop killer VMS apps, use VMS as a multi-platform cross-development-3 > environment, all the stuff it really is good at. P > H Agreed. The ability to get at all those layered products I had only read# about before has been a great boon.f  N > When you want to play with the big boys (ie want a support contract) you can > join CSA etc.v > P > Your clients have the same choice, deploy on CheapVMS without contract supportQ > or pay the price for the supported product/services. Depends on their buisinessw	 > needs. l > R > I'm sure there are a few wrinkles in this reasoning. Some might consider it willJ > devalue to overall perception of VMS, or will eat into support revenues. >   % No doubt there are, but it's a start.0  M > Now, how long before someone blows a minimal linux kernel running ts10 inton% > a replacement BIOS for Intel boxes?G >      <grin> __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandn   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:23:20 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>7 Subject: Re: Hobbyist vs Startup Business and Licensingt0 Message-ID: <3D7DF0A3.81522C4A@blueyonder.co.uk>   Paul Sture wrote:s > i > In article <3D7CDE21.25532168@blueyonder.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:m   I > > Yes, this has been my point for a long time. Actually, I now have got-G > > VMS hobbyist running under ts10 on my linux box. I have VMS running. > > on Wintel! > >:F > Excellent. I had a bash with Charon VAX when it was first available,A > but the cost of even the Personal License was too steep for me.c  F Well, I have everything working apart from routing on my local subnet.H Trying to get VMS working as a DHCP client but having lots of fun trying( to get DHCP forwarding working on linux.     J > Agreed. The ability to get at all those layered products I had only read% > about before has been a great boon.K >   < Aha, I had the luxury of having DECCampus for quite a while.    0 Regards, --   tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk .  H * PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:01:30 GMTr1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>u7 Subject: Re: Hobbyist vs Startup Business and Licensinge' Message-ID: <3D7E1CBA.B33D82B5@fsi.net>A   John Smith wrote:M > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3D7D44E4.EF7C3A09@fsi.net...n > >cK > > Not really. It's another one of those deals where you make less on eachPJ > > sale, but you make more sales. ...and before anyone posts it, no, theyE > > don't balance perfectly: 50% reductions in price do NOT yield 50%uD > > increases in volume. Sorry - that's the way the cookie crumbles. > >fH > > To revitalize (read: firm up) the revenue stream, you're gonna haftaK > > sacrifice margin. Your margins will be lower, and your overall cashflowuE > > may go down somewhat compared to that same number of sales at thehL > > current margin. The pay-off comes in the form of a more stable cashflow.J > > Fluctuations in economic conditions will have less impact on your cashG > > flow the larger your customer base becomes. When you have 1 million3J > > customers, you can afford to lose more of those customers during toughI > > times than you can having only 400,000 customers when the tough times1 > > hit. > N > To paraphrase Ronald Reagan during his debate with Jimmy Carter, "Well thereM > you go again David"......presupposing that HP will listen to any suggestionoM > that will grow the VMS market, any more than Digital or Compaq did once thew
 > rot set in.m  E Oh, I know full well they won't. My take on it, however, is that it'seD THEIR problem, not mine. VMS continues to stagnate under the presentF regime. I view this doing little or nothing to justify the status quo.  G > I can trot out at least a half-dozen letters I wrote to GQ Palmer andeK > various and sundry marketing managers about the same issues a decade ago. N > And letters I wrote to DEC 15-20 years ago about similar issues when it cameK > to hardware...remember 'proprietary Unibus'??? and firmware specific hardaI > disks and tape drives, where the specific firmware was a "RZ23" or "DECu  > TZ10" or something like that??  D Well, not to take away from your intentions, that was then - this is now.  F VMS is an orphan, at present, with no hardware platform that holds anyD credibility in the eyes of prospective consumers (existing customersF know to hang on to what Alphas they have): Alpha is viewed as dead andC IA64 remains vaporware, at best. In anticipation of arguments: yes,hE there are IA64 machines in production. How many of those are ready to  run OpenVMS-IPF?  ? So long as those millions of IA32 machines around the world andaA currently in manufacture remain locked out of the VMS market, VMStH remains an orphan until a "knight in shining armor" comes along and laysC a production quality, ready-for-prime-time hardware platform at itsa feet.<  H Sorry to have to be such a bummer lately, but let's face it: 11-Sep-2001A wasn't the first slap-in-face of reality that we got last year...w   -- . David J. Dachtera. dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:53:37 +0200n' From: JOUKJ <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>h! Subject: Re: ImageMagick freewareo2 Message-ID: <3D7D96F1.5020508@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:n\ > In article <3d771105$1@news.fhg.de>, Theo Jakobus <Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fraunhofer.de> writes: > L > :We are using the freeware package ImageMagick http://www.imagemagick.org ( > :on our Alpha-OpenVMS workstations ...N > :Now I got the message that version 3.4.9 will be the last supported version > :for OpenVMS.  > A > :I'm asking all users of this software to send an e-mail to ...  > F >   I'm not in a position to assist with email unless I can verify theH >   address -- sending email in this situation can be tantamount to mail >   bombing. > N > :If anybody has time the developers of ImageMagick are glad to get help, see- > :http://www.imagemagick.org/www/help.html .s > J >   I've already ported one release, I'll probably end up porting another.K >   (Folks here in OpenVMS Engineering use ImageMagick running on OpenVMS.)1 > D I just ported the 5.4.9 version to OpenVMS 7.3. All details and the * patch I needed you can find on my web-page'   http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/C                      Joukh   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:50:42 +0100l4 From: "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk>! Subject: Re: ImageMagick freeware 4 Message-ID: <alkbor$pf6$1$830fa7b3@news.demon.co.uk>  J > damn Cobol developers, know almost as little about security as Microsoft > ones :-).h >o* > Sorry, to any clued up Cobol developres.  C I once worked at the UK subsidiary of a Japanese company developing9 extensively in Cobol.JJ I was most impressed to discover VAX Cobol was so extended, you could make it look just like Pascal.eJ The developers at the parent company were less charmed - "what language IS this ?"n   Christ   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:57:37 +0100 (MET)S9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> E Subject: lexicals (was: RE: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION)"a; Message-ID: <01KMCGZC0I1I9QVJI2@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>n  < > Yeah - there's enough redundancy in the lexicals as it is: > $ > F$MODE() vs. F$GETJPI( 0, "MODE" )   OK.a  . > F$DIRECTORY() vs. F$ENVIRONMENT( "DEFAULT" )  D Not the same: the first doesn't give the device name.  Is there any E context where the first would be preferable to the second?  Or is it wA just some historical baggage (like F$LOGICAL) which has not been w< officially poo-pooed (as F$LOGICAL has)?  Having said that, / SYS$MANAGER:SYLOGICALS.TEMPLATE still contains o  .    $ DSENT $DISK1 'F$LOGICAL("SYS$SYSDEVICE")'  # > F$USER() vs. F$GETJPI( 0, "UIC" )M   OK.s  C > F$TIME() and F$CVTIME( , "ABSOLUTE" ) do differ slightly in their5D > outputs, I noticed, usually when the day number is a single digit.  2 And SHOW TIME indents and leaves off the decimals.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:17:04 GMTG1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>gI Subject: Re: lexicals (was: RE: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION)"w' Message-ID: <3D7E2E71.22B26ED1@fsi.net>e   Phillip Helbig wrote:  > > > > Yeah - there's enough redundancy in the lexicals as it is: > >I& > > F$MODE() vs. F$GETJPI( 0, "MODE" ) >  > OK.t > 0 > > F$DIRECTORY() vs. F$ENVIRONMENT( "DEFAULT" ) > 8 > Not the same: the first doesn't give the device name.   E Did y'ever notice that there's no system service to equivalent to SETR DEFAULT?  # DEFAULT is really a combination of:   2 $ DEFAULT = F$TRNLNM( "SYS$DISK" ) + F$DIRECTORY()  7 ...but, you're quite right. A direct parallel would be:t  E F$DIRECTORY() vs. F$PARSE( F$ENVIRONMENT( "DEFAULT"),,, "DIRECTORY" )t   > Is there anyF > context where the first would be preferable to the second?  Or is itB > just some historical baggage (like F$LOGICAL) which has not been= > officially poo-pooed (as F$LOGICAL has)?  Having said that,o0 > SYS$MANAGER:SYLOGICALS.TEMPLATE still contains > 0 >    $ DSENT $DISK1 'F$LOGICAL("SYS$SYSDEVICE")' > % > > F$USER() vs. F$GETJPI( 0, "UIC" )i >  > OK.w > E > > F$TIME() and F$CVTIME( , "ABSOLUTE" ) do differ slightly in theirsF > > outputs, I noticed, usually when the day number is a single digit. > 4 > And SHOW TIME indents and leaves off the decimals.  G Y'know, I never really noticed that before, but I typically display thexF output of F$TIME() or F$CVTIME( , "ABSOLUTE" ) instead of SHOW TIME in my DCL proc.'s.n   -- n David J. Dachterad dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/T   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Sep 02 15:43:05 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)tY Subject: Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!m) Message-ID: <71S8znSN8+HI@elias.decus.ch>.  W In article <1020909203031.416A-100000@Ives.egh.com>, John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes:3  > On 9 Sep 2002, Chris G. wrote: > o >> Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:<3D7CE41C.6716FE9C@blueyonder.co.uk>...rT >> > VMS base and per user licence costs were cheaper than you might think last time >> > I looked. >> > o >> > regards >> mE >> Hmmmm... looking at http://www.openvms.compaq.com/swcat/index.htmlmD >> I see that in order to run an alpha station with CSWS as a secure$ >> webserver would probably cost me: >> dB >> USD$1750 for TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Client Workgroup
 >> LicenseB >> USD$ 377 for OpenVMS VAX and Alpha Operating Systems Concurrent >> License 1 Userr >> i >> Making it at least $2127 USG >> (I assume that CSWS will run on this sort of license? I assume the 1L& >> User applies to interactive logins) >>  G >> It comes down to convincing managers that CSWS is worth the costs oflC >> licensing VMS & TCP/IP because it is inherently more secure thanuB >> Apache on Linux or IIS on NT.  Of course, if HPaq brought out aH >> special "CSWS Bundle" (license and cd to install and run CSWS for theI >> same cost as a Windows NT server license (what? about $600 USD??) thenw3 >> that might be a great way to get CSWS out there.n >> )
 >> Cheers, >> Chris Guthrey > A > This pricing structure assumes the Alpha doesn't already have a-D > TCP/IP license and at least a single-user VMS license.  If you areE > buying a new Alpha, it will almost certainly include both of these.4 > 1 > What does an NT server license cost these days?r >    US prices from= http://shop.microsoft.com/Referral/productInfo.asp?siteID=656@   Windows 2000 Server:  5 user $999 10 user $1,199 25 user $1,799  E But I don't know how much you need to spend on extras such as backup,>7 job control, and so on. They certainly mount up though.h  @ http://shop.microsoft.com/Referral/productInfo.asp?siteID=10188   : W2000 Advanced Server (SMP support, "clustering" (snigger) and load balancing)f   25 user $3,999    B > Also, CSWS works just fine on TCPWare, and probably Multinet, so@ > you don't really need TCP/IP Services.  (Of course TCPWare and > Multinet also cost $.) >  > -- >
 > John Santos  > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. > 781-861-0670 ext 539 >  -- l __
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:19:24 GMTd4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!w0 Message-ID: <3D7DFDC8.1396DEEE@blueyonder.co.uk>   Paul Sture wrote:   i > US prices from? > http://shop.microsoft.com/Referral/productInfo.asp?siteID=656i >  > Windows 2000 Server: >  5 user $999 > 10 user $1,199 > 25 user $1,799 >   J Is that just the server part? Do you also need to licence client desktops?  G > But I don't know how much you need to spend on extras such as backup,e9 > job control, and so on. They certainly mount up though.  > A > http://shop.microsoft.com/Referral/productInfo.asp?siteID=10188h > < > W2000 Advanced Server (SMP support, "clustering" (snigger) > and load balancing)e >  > 25 user $3,999   Hmmm,    -- i tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk s  H * PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:33:35 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>PY Subject: Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!t' Message-ID: <3D7E2441.C52B88D5@fsi.net>m   John Santos wrote: >   > On 9 Sep 2002, Chris G. wrote: > p > > Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:<3D7CE41C.6716FE9C@blueyonder.co.uk>...U > > > VMS base and per user licence costs were cheaper than you might think last timeo > > > I looked.l > > >.
 > > > regards  > >IF > > Hmmmm... looking at http://www.openvms.compaq.com/swcat/index.htmlE > > I see that in order to run an alpha station with CSWS as a securer% > > webserver would probably cost me:  > >oC > > USD$1750 for TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Client Workgroup- > > License-C > > USD$ 377 for OpenVMS VAX and Alpha Operating Systems Concurrent. > > License 1 User > >: > > Making it at least $2127 US H > > (I assume that CSWS will run on this sort of license? I assume the 1' > > User applies to interactive logins)L > >lH > > It comes down to convincing managers that CSWS is worth the costs ofD > > licensing VMS & TCP/IP because it is inherently more secure thanC > > Apache on Linux or IIS on NT.  Of course, if HPaq brought out aeI > > special "CSWS Bundle" (license and cd to install and run CSWS for thenJ > > same cost as a Windows NT server license (what? about $600 USD??) then4 > > that might be a great way to get CSWS out there. > >e > > Cheers,i > > Chris Guthrey> > A > This pricing structure assumes the Alpha doesn't already have a D > TCP/IP license and at least a single-user VMS license.  If you areE > buying a new Alpha, it will almost certainly include both of these.  > 1 > What does an NT server license cost these days?n > B > Also, CSWS works just fine on TCPWare, and probably Multinet, so@ > you don't really need TCP/IP Services.  (Of course TCPWare and > Multinet also cost $.)  C If I could get OVMS Mgt. to agree to it, I'd have no problem at alleE selling affordable VMS with whatever TCP/IP stack the customer wants. E Establishing relationships with both VMS (HP) and Process Software isaF not a problem in my eyes. Getting affordably priced VMS still seems toD the obstacle, from what you say - I haven't yet attempted to verify.   -- A David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsh http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/m   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 05:05:54 -0700* From: anders.wallin@om.com (Anders Wallin)+ Subject: Limit to number of classes in CMS? = Message-ID: <3e79b2e3.0209100405.2ba2e49b@posting.google.com>e   Hello,  G Is there a limit (theoretical or practical) to the number of classes in  a CMS library?  ; We have some libraries with 3000 elements and close to 1000 8 classes. There has been signs of a slowdown when issuing
 commands like   #    $ CMS SHOW GEN/D/M/G myprogram.ch   Any one else experienced this?   CMS, V4.1-3 (and earlier)b VMS, V7.3   (and earlier)r   Regardsn  
 Anders Wallinv   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Sep 2002 00:29:57 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>F Subject: Re: Micro$oft exec says all os's stink ... forgets about VMS!- Message-ID: <87u1kxyfi2.fsf@prep.synonet.com>s  % "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:a  N > All Microsoft has to do is cut a deal to buy VMS from HP. Then they'll stick< > the Windows api on top of it and call it Secure WindowsVMS  ; Those who do not know history are condemed to re-invent it.c Badly.   -- I< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.1@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 02:10:52 -0400e( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>A Subject: Re: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!,* Message-ID: <3D7D8CEC.70602@tsoft-inc.com>   Michael Zarlenga wrote:I  0 > Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:! > :> Ok, so XP pro is about $300.n- > :> How much is VMS with a license?  $5,000?n > / > : Transferred with a used machine it is $300.  >  > Not what I asked ... >  >     Ok, but the info is a bit dated.  N While layered products appear to be based upon the 3 tier system, Enterprise, O Department, and Workgroup, the base VMS license appears to be specific to each eF piece of hardware.  At least when bought new, as part of a new system.  Q The DS10L a few years back appeared to have a base VMS price in the neighborhood  	 of $1000.y  Q If your question is about buying VMS only, for say a used system, the last price GQ I got was in the neighborhood of $2,600, if my memory is working.  The system it r' was priced for was an AlphaServer 1200.m  M Low end VMS appears to be one of the victims of the killing of Alpha and the  B other less desirable things that have occured in the last 2 years.   Dave   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:15:16 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> A Subject: Re: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!e; Message-ID: <01KMC30KRHS29OCZIZ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>5  I > If someone really wants to compare the cost of OpenVMS with the cost ofaH > Windows NT/2000/XP then you have to look at the price for Windows 2000J > Datacenter Edition.  I don't know what that price is but I'm sure it's a > lot more than $300.   ? To be fair, one should also compare the quality of the product.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:51:43 GMTf# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>tA Subject: Re: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns! J Message-ID: <3Gnf9.154936$GK2.112337@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messageu$ news:3D7D8CEC.70602@tsoft-inc.com... > J > Low end VMS appears to be one of the victims of the killing of Alpha and thedD > other less desirable things that have occured in the last 2 years.    I Well of course. When you are only selling to existing customers, and only L expect those exisiting customers to be larger players anyway, and you expectI them to migrate to unix, linux, or Windows, why consider the needs of the' low-end?  D You don't expect to have a need for a 'cottage industry' of softwareF developers when your policies are those of getting customers to eitherH voluntarily leave VMS or get forced out, so there is no need to keep theJ low-end in mind. After all, if you don't have major applications like SAP,K Sybase, or other major 'names' available on current releases of VMS, why on J earth would you need "The Best Damn Utilities Package" or "CRM Better Than= Seibel" from Cottage Industry Software Inc. available on VMS?3  E I know that this is not what has been 'said', but it is the practicaloL reality for more customers given the events of the past several years. Don'tH think that many existing VMS customers aren't thinking about leaving theI fold. Money is tight right now, so migration/porting plans are on hold ate: many sites. Wait until the economy turns around some more.  E It's mostly a matter of trust, and trust based in visible actions andnI statements which lead to a high degree of comfort. I've never been in thesJ military or any higher level sports team but I can imagine a unit/team, ifE lead by somebody they have complete trust in, vs. one that is lead by I someone who doesn't have the trust of the unit/team,  can be lead throughd some pretty tough times.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:59:06 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-A Subject: Re: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!t, Message-ID: <3D7E16C8.376545AE@videotron.ca>   Phillip Helbig wrote: A > To be fair, one should also compare the quality of the product.-  L This is where HP will have to bite its tongue and make VMS the same price asG NT. After all, HP does claim that NT is enterprise ready, scalable, has31 clustering, secure and high quality, doesn't it ?n   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 23:34:07 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>A Subject: Re: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns! - Message-ID: <877khtzwnk.fsf@prep.synonet.com>N  % "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:i  < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3D7A3324.373CB428@videotron.ca...  E > > Out of curiosity, when one purchases a new PC from a real companysD > > (not a garage operation), how much does the windows licence cost > > the builder ?a  F > > I realise that the exact price would vary depending on the type ofD > > leash the builder is willing to have attached to its own neck by? > > microsoft, but I would expect that they all pay in the sameu
 > > ballpark?e  & > > Are we talking $50 ? $100 ? $150 ?  eF > As a rough guess, 20-30% of the lowest legitimate price you can findF > in a store/on-line for a full version license. Remember that the OEM# > has to provide 1st level support..  oB Can't remember, but the inquirer did a number on the cost of a OEMC whitebox PC.  Windows was the most expensive component. A wholesalec@ pricelist I saw had Exchange unlimited at over $270,000.... Yes, wholesale price, not end luzer!3   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 08:39:02 -0700+ From: c00per11242001@yahoo.ca (Vic Mendham)g Subject: Pathworks..< Message-ID: <f7a73cb1.0209100739.e64948f@posting.google.com>  A We're migrating from one outsourcer to another and the new vendor- doesn't support Decnet.x  A We are buying old refurbished 6610's etc... to mirror our currentD2 systems and will Image restore to the new systems.  > 1. How can I tell the decnet cfg of pathworks and ensure it is configured for TCP/IP.  , 2. Will a node name change affect pathworks?   Regards,   c00per11242001@yahoo.cae   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:07:12 GMTh1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>t Subject: Re: Pathworks..' Message-ID: <3D7E2C24.A3D2C641@fsi.net>n   Vic Mendham wrote: > C > We're migrating from one outsourcer to another and the new vendorT > doesn't support Decnet.D  ' Time for (yet another) new vendor then.   0 Oh yeah, I forgot: the vendor is always right...   -- a David J. DachteraO dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/T   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:40:12 GMT-. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)5 Subject: Re: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION)R4 Message-ID: <06jf9.61501$1S3.2049103@news.chello.at>  w In article <01KM59B9G7XU9QUS7H@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes: I >Suppose I have a large amount of files [...]*.* to which I want to make  F >sure that for, say, World, Read privilege is granted.  However, some I >will already have, say, W:RE or W:E while others will have just W:.  Is tJ >there a simple way to ADD the R priv?  Just specifying W:R will override 1 >what is already there, which is not what I want.D  , In this your example, I can't see a problem.H Setting R is enough as R implies E and RE and R have no difference then. So set W:R and you're finished.t  D >                                                  (I think this is D >something like chmod o+r in unix.)  Is this REALLY an area where a < >feature one really needs is present in unix and not in VMS? >iD >While I'm on the topic, why isn't there F$PROTECTION to return the  >protection mask on an object?  - Should be on the VMS wish list for decades...0   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERI% Network and OpenVMS system specialistf E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:14:14 +0100 (MET)e9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>$5 Subject: Re: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION)p; Message-ID: <01KMC2XORW8Y9OCZIZ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>/  G > In this your example, I can't see a problem. Setting R is enough as ReG > implies E and RE and R have no difference then. So set W:R and you're5 > finished.     Right, this was just an example.   > > (I think this is nG > > something like chmod o+r in unix.)  Is this REALLY an area where a  ? > > feature one really needs is present in unix and not in VMS?2 > >.G > > While I'm on the topic, why isn't there F$PROTECTION to return the p! > > protection mask on an object?L > / > Should be on the VMS wish list for decades...s  F As someone else pointed out, F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES("PRO") can use this to ' get the protection (but not to set it).m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:26:20 -0400.; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> 5 Subject: Re: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION)S$ Message-ID: <3d7e1d99$1@news.si.com>  E >>While I'm on the topic, why isn't there F$PROTECTION to return the e >>protection mask on an object?  > . >Should be on the VMS wish list for decades...  . What's wrong with F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES' PRO item?  , $ write sys$output f$file("login.com","pro")% SYSTEM=RWED, OWNER=RWED, GROUP, WORLDL -- UA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comnA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comT= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventL< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:47:34 GMT?1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o5 Subject: Re: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION)h' Message-ID: <3D7E2787.6EC38162@fsi.net>e   Brian Tillman wrote: > F > >>While I'm on the topic, why isn't there F$PROTECTION to return the! > >>protection mask on an object?n > >c0 > >Should be on the VMS wish list for decades... > 0 > What's wrong with F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES' PRO item? > . > $ write sys$output f$file("login.com","pro")' > SYSTEM=RWED, OWNER=RWED, GROUP, WORLD9  : Yeah - there's enough redundancy in the lexicals as it is:  " F$MODE() vs. F$GETJPI( 0, "MODE" )  , F$DIRECTORY() vs. F$ENVIRONMENT( "DEFAULT" )  ! F$USER() vs. F$GETJPI( 0, "UIC" )r  A F$TIME() and F$CVTIME( , "ABSOLUTE" ) do differ slightly in theirrB outputs, I noticed, usually when the day number is a single digit.   -- 3 David J. DachteraS dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:37:29 GMTh1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>_J Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?? Message-ID: <ZPkf9.253705$_91.284500@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>y  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D76C833.8DC50EDE@fsi.net...w > Alan Greig wrote:7 > >.0 > > On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:46:26 -0400, JF Mezei) > > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:f > >/ > > >lH > > >Not only do I own multiple VAXes, but the first one, I paid $20,000 **OF MY L > > >OWN MONEY**. And I invested heavily in VMS for my carreer, and am now aJ > > >worthless ugly bag of mostly water because the owners of VMS had made sureL > > >that VMS skills are not in demand. I think I have a right to comment on the  > > >fate of VMS.i > >fG > > And this sums it up nicely. As long as there's a large number of us G > > looking at career changes (or already emptying the trash) thanks toeG > > the actions of VMS's owners then these owners are going to get shitNE > > thrown at them. Why is this so hard for some folks to understand.- >- > That's what I'd like to know., > J > It's like I've said so many times: it comes down to "messing with folks'J > rice bowl". O.k., so you're a senior VMS person, you've been assimilatedJ > and VMS has no longer holds the same value in your estimation as perhapsG > it once did or as it perhaps does to others. If that's the case, theneI > exercise one of the options expressed in the old saying: "Do SOMEthing!c/ > ...either lead, follow or GTF outta the way!"t >eJ > > Had first Digital , then Compaq and perhaps HP helped me every step ofI > > the way to push VMS but it failed in the marketplace, I would feel no/I > > animosity But instead I've spent the last decade fighting them tryingsJ > > to push me towards Unix then Windows. Yes, there are the advocates whoH > > *do* help but, unless you are in a particular specialist applicationH > > area, that's just not good enough to fight their employers corporate
 > > momentum.a > >iE > > This is perhaps the real reason Capellas would like to see VMS golI > > away. He knows that the constant complaints will never go away unless H > > VMS goes into strong growth mode. He doesn't plan for this I'm sure.% > > Now the problem is over to Carly.h >nJ > That's the part that my little peanut-brain finds so difficult to grasp.E > Here's this product that churns out bux at a good pace, all factorsdE > considered (cost vs. margin and all that). Under what circumstances E > would you *NOT* want to promote the living (Censored) out of it??!!h >.J > Corollary: suppose you held a winning lottery ticket worth a lump sum in  > excess of $50 megabux. Do you: >  > A. Cash it ina > B. Flush it down the toiletiI > C. Burn it because so many people are complaining that you won and theyb	 > didn't.e > * > If you're smart, you'll choose option A. > 6 > Why does VMS Mgt. consistently choose either B or C? >o0 > Please, Please, Please, someone TELL ME WHY!!! >r  K I've yet to find anyone who either can or WILL tell me why. And believe me,  I've asked!    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 22:01:40 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>A Subject: Re: Size of I/O count fields in SHOW PROC and SHOW SYS ? - Message-ID: <87bs76ymd7.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   6 "Barry Kierstein" <Barry.Kierstein@Compaq.Com> writes:  A > I see.  I was wondering which fields in the DECamds applicationy > exhibited this behavior.  < The byte counts on the AMDS NISCS page. I suspect the others7 would do the same, but have not watched 2^31 packets...e  0 Opps, it is called the NISCA display, not NISCS.   -- n< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.m@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Sep 2002 13:16:44 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)6 Subject: Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance6 Message-ID: <alkrbr$1qr94r$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  - In article <alitac$qpe$2@newsread.stdio.com>,0 	bit-bucket@maney.org writes:p6 > In comp.unix.solaris Dan <bill@microsoft.com> wrote: > ? >:> Thousands and thousands of places like this in the country.i >:>@L >: And out of country unfortunately.  I know of one company that moved theirL >: development support to Mexico and entire help desk to India.  Lowered the% >: payroll cost by 90% I would guess.i > H > Agreed. However I'd be willing to bet this was done more because thoseH > countires are actively courting technical businesses to move there. IfL > Smalltown, USA did the same, I think there'd be a lot less "globalization" > going on.  >   F Don't mistake obscure with "Smalltown, USA".  The place I mentioned inG a previous post is part of the 4th or 5th (depending on how you measure F it) largest metropolitan area in the state of Pennsylvania.  And, as IG also said, I am sure the local government would have many incentives toiF offer and the local Chamber of Commerce will help to get them.  MovingF to Mexico or India isn't needed to cut costs.  All that is needed is a simple change of mindset.,   bill   -- bJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:56:51 +0100pU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>f" Subject: Re: The Gauntlet is Cast!0 Message-ID: <all4o4$37u$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:$   > Rob Young wrote: > O >>        So what if their market share increased.  Their margins are crashing.t >> > M > If Sun's margins are crashing for real enterprise servers, then so are/wills > HP's and IBM's.0 >     5 HP lost 422 million dollars in their enterprise groupn prior to restructuring charges.d  3 I don't know how much money you need to lose to get 2 Rob to describe your margins as having crashed but4 approaching half a billion dollars would have caught
 my attention.y  0 Funny that it seems to have escaped Robs notice.    J > And if wintel servers margins are going down, then guess who can survive > longest ? Dell or HP ? >     2 Dell are making money on their PC's Compaq are not* so clearly Dell are in a better possition.   Funny Rob forgot this as well.   regards0 Andrew Harrisoni    M > Seems to me that Dell would have the staying power needed to continue to be O > profitable as wintel server margins go down and HP would start to bleed money-U > with evert wintel server sale they made, just as what happens with wintel desktops.o > N > Do you agree that Sun is in a market (real enterprise servers) where marginsK > make it much easier to make a profit compared to the wintel server marketd, > which seems to be the focus for Capellas ? >    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 11:32:43 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)d" Subject: Re: The Gauntlet is Cast!3 Message-ID: <Bje5PURUdg6S@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <all4o4$37u$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes: >  >  > JF Mezei wrote:i >  >> Rob Young wrote:  >> dP >>>        So what if their market share increased.  Their margins are crashing. >>>r >>  N >> If Sun's margins are crashing for real enterprise servers, then so are/will >> HP's and IBM's. >> r >  > 7 > HP lost 422 million dollars in their enterprise group.! > prior to restructuring charges.  > 5 > I don't know how much money you need to lose to getl4 > Rob to describe your margins as having crashed but6 > approaching half a billion dollars would have caught > my attention.r > 2 > Funny that it seems to have escaped Robs notice. >    	Not at all.   > K >> And if wintel servers margins are going down, then guess who can surviven >> longest ? Dell or HP ?e >> e >  > 4 > Dell are making money on their PC's Compaq are not, > so clearly Dell are in a better possition. >   > Funny Rob forgot this as well. >    	Not at all.  A 	Having other divisions that make nice chunks of profit helps HP. C 	Obviously, the same can't be said of Sun (or more accurately to a sD 	much lesser degree) or Sun's outlook would be much brighter.  Since? 	their outlook over the next two years is not so bright, it is m  	reflected in their stock price.  M "As the weak IT spending picture weighs on the sector, Sun is also challenged N by several company-specific issues," wrote J.P. Morgan analyst Bill Shope. "WeE believe that Sun continues to grapple with a core market slowdown andz increasing competition."  H In the low-end, Sun is facing a threat from the Microsoft-Linux industryN standard server vendors, such as Dell, he told clients. The threat is startingN to creep up into the midrange Unix server market, where pricing competition isO fierce. In the high end, Sun faces off with IBM and Hewlett-Packard (HPQ: news,o chart, profile).  N At least eight Wall Street brokerages cut their earnings and revenue estimatesJ for the computer hardware and services company, not only for Sun's current1 fiscal first quarter but also for 2003 and 2004."c    E 	Sun is stuck with hardware (and oh.. transitioning to services, good8+ 	luck) as their biggest segment.  Not good.t   	Spin Andrew spin.   				Rob   B Men with walkie-talkie                  I'm home again to you babeC Men with flashlights waving             You know it makes me wonderhG Up upon the tower                       Sittin' in the quiet slipstreamh> The clock reads daylight savin'         Rollin' in the thunder  -                                 -- Neil Youngt   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:12:23 +0100cU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> " Subject: Re: The Gauntlet is Cast!0 Message-ID: <all5l8$3jm$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:  ^ > In article <3D79289F.FA759F9D@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >  >>Rob Young wrote: >>P >>>        So what if their market share increased.  Their margins are crashing. >>>wN >>Do you agree that Sun is in a market (real enterprise servers) where marginsK >>make it much easier to make a profit compared to the wintel server market , >>which seems to be the focus for Capellas ? >> >  > ? > 	I agree that unix server margins are higher.  I also see box = > 	counts and Intel servers (4 and 8 way) sell in much higheraD > 	numbers than Sun 4+8 way.  Because Intel margins are thinner and B > 	counts are higher, increasing pressure comes to unix servers.   >     A Really then again you would be wrong. The Sun V880 is the largesto selling 8 way server.j    H > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nf/20020903/bs_nf/19264 > P > Technology research firm IDC reported Friday that in a server market dominatedN > by less expensive entry-level servers, Hewlett-Packard's ( NYSE: HPQ - news)K > acquisition of Compaq helped the company pull even with IBM ( NYSE: IBM - C > news), which dominated the overall server market for many years. . >  > ===e > A > 	Dominated by less expensive entry level servers.  Servers that ; > 	will continue to have declining margins. 1U and 2U, etc.: > H > 	Sun is in a spot.  As you look at the 5 or so segments that make themC > 	money, server hardware makes up a disproportinate slice of thoser? > 	segments.  Hence, they are being downgraded across the boardeB > 	by Wall Street analysts.  Gals and guys that make lots of moneyA > 	and spend lots of time studying the subject.  Collectively are.@ > 	the 8+ firms that are Bearish on Sun wrong?  Highly unlikely. >     < The V880 an 8 way server which you apparently think is right: in the squeeze zone increased its revenues last quarter by7 127%. Odd, given that all the facts dispute your theorye" why do you continue to espouse it.  < For the last 3 years you have continued to advance basically7 the same theory without a shred of supporting evidence.S8 Namely that low end PC's will squeeze Sun out of the low end market.-  : Since then Sun's share of the low end market has grown and8 continues to do so. In the last quarter it was up by 17% on the 0-99K segment.    Time for a new theory ??   regards  Andrew Harrisonr   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:58:34 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> " Subject: Re: The Gauntlet is Cast!' Message-ID: <3D7E2A1B.A6AE5329@fsi.net>    "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > [snip]  ? Well, my apologies to the group for setting off the subthreads.u  G I must say that so far the response has been underwhelming. So, I don'tn see going forward with this.  H More than one respondent suggested soliciting 1000 responses at $10 U.S. each. I'll watch my e-mail...    -- i David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:11:09 +0100 (MET)i9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>AJ Subject: Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on; Message-ID: <01KMC2OTFQYA9OCZIZ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>T  3 > > I did forget an office package like StarOffice.e > H > I am not sure you'd really need that. Get Wordperfect to make a betterD > commitment to VMS, spruce up VMSmail to handle attachements, fixupD > CALENDAR to have "server like" functions (like checking if you can0 > schedule something with your boss next week).    Amen, brother!  H I couldn't agree more.  However, the goal should be something like "wordB processing", not "be compatible with MS WORD".  Folks who use StarC Office to avoid buying Microsoft products (for whatever reason) are @ going only halfway, since using the WORD format still means thatA Microsoft dictates the rules (proprietary format, no guarantee ofS> compatibility between versions (in fact, incompatibility oftenG introduced on purpose as "planned obsolescence"), the format to supporti is a moving target etc). -  F While I would like to see the use of VMS increase, I wouldn't like to G see this happen via copying "industry standard" solutions if there are TG (or, with a litte effort, could be) better solutions on VMS.  In other 'H words, anything which external folks process (text-processing document, I web page etc) should follow an open standard and it shouldn't matter how  G this thing is produced (freeware, GPL stuff, good proprietary solution l) (VMS), bad proprietary solution (MS) etc.E   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:37:30 +0100r* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>J Subject: Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on+ Message-ID: <alki0b$vca@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>4  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KMC2OTFQYA9OCZIZ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...-  J > I couldn't agree more.  However, the goal should be something like "wordD > processing", not "be compatible with MS WORD".  Folks who use StarE > Office to avoid buying Microsoft products (for whatever reason) are B > going only halfway, since using the WORD format still means that > Microsoft dictates the rules  I If you want to go the whole way then why not use Star and just don't savet in Word format?I   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:49:28 +0100)U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>eJ Subject: Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on0 Message-ID: <all7qo$47n$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rudolf Wingert wrote:)   > Hello, > I > I did forget an office package like StarOffice. The mention of  Andrew,nJ > that HP should developed is not correct. If Sun would like to make monyeJ > and StarOffice is pur C, then Sun must port them to OpenVMS like IBM did$ > for ADMS or Corel for WordPerfect. >     3 Umm OpenOffice is OpenSource and free, Sun does not 2 make money out of it except if it helps us sell HW, which hardly seems likely in this situation.  / StarOffice is a paid for product which is basedk0 on the same source as OpenOffice but which comes0 with support and some additional commercial apps  bundled with it. It is paid for.  3 In the circumstances its seems odd to be suggesting / that Sun should fund a port of OpenOffice to HPi- for which Sun will not derive any benefit but " which will deliver benefits to HP.  2 Seems like an excuse for HP not to spend any money% doing their own Business development.   0 Perhaps we should be approaching IBM to get them- to pay for our UltraSPARC development because  DB2 runs on it !   Regardsl Andrew Harrisona   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2002 23:56:17 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>T Subject: Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on  OpenVMS?- Message-ID: <873cshzvmm.fsf@prep.synonet.com>n  + jbrankin@ntlworld.com (Jim Brankin) writes:   E > 1. A DCL interface to the lock manager. Lots of people think that a F > lock goes away when an image exits. Its not so, only user mode locksF > do that so you can use supervisor or exec mode locks from DCL - theyE > survive image rundown and disappear at process rundown. So it wouldo9 > be possible to write the equivelent of f$enq, f$deq and D > f$getlki. This would get rid of all those flag files and DCL loops > with wait statements.x  I Been done. There was a utility on the SIG tapes way long ago. Called LOCKu or ENQUE I think.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.p@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:36:21 +0100 (MET)j9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> O Subject: Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on VMS?V; Message-ID: <01KMC7X5UV1K9QVJI2@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>n  L > > I couldn't agree more.  However, the goal should be something like "wordF > > processing", not "be compatible with MS WORD".  Folks who use StarG > > Office to avoid buying Microsoft products (for whatever reason) aretD > > going only halfway, since using the WORD format still means that  > > Microsoft dictates the rules > K > If you want to go the whole way then why not use Star and just don't saver > in Word format?   F Right.  As long as it isn't saved in some format which non-Star users  can't read.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:40:06 GMTi. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)I Subject: Re: XFC V2.0 and VDDRIVER (was: RE: XFC v2 ECO, negative report) 4 Message-ID: <a_jf9.62017$1S3.2049103@news.chello.at>  _ In article <aliu5j$nit$3@web1.cup.hp.com>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:dG >In article <3D775C5B.2080300@gce.com>, G Everhart <ge@gce.com> writes:  > M >:...I sent vdd64 with updates to Hunter Goatley who had them on at least oneRN >:of his servers yesterday morning and probably has it on all of them today...M >:(see http://www.process.com/fileserv-software-updates.html for pointers)...K >sJ >  I'll get the Freeware website updated within a week or so of my findingI >  the corrected distro of VDD64; the above-mentioned URL has gone `404'.e  : It's	http://vms.process.com/fileserv-software-updates.html   means "vms" not "www"a   -- ^ Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERi% Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.500 ************************ked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Sep 2002 13:16:44 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)6 Subject: Re: The "Gold" Standard in Disaster Tolerance6 Message-ID: <alkrbr$1qr94r$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  - In article <alitac$qpe$2@newsread.stdio.com>,0 @y    Ay    By    Cy    Dy    Ey    Fy    Gy    Hy    Iy    Jy    Ky    Ly    My    Ny    Oy    Py    Qy    Ry    Sy    Ty    Uy    Vy    Wy    Xy    Yy    Zy    [y    \y    ]y    ^y    _y    `y    ay    by    cy    dy    ey    fy    gy    hy    iy    jy    ky    ly    my    ny    oy    py    qy    ry    sy    ty    uy    vy    wy    xy    yy    zy    {y    |y    }y    ~y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    y    