1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 12 Sep 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 504       Contents: 7.3-1 craziness  Re: 7.3-1 craziness  Re: 7.3-1 craziness + Re: ??== System 7.3, ODS-5, Java, Rdb, etc. + Re: ??== System 7.3, ODS-5, Java, Rdb, etc. + Re: ??== System 7.3, ODS-5, Java, Rdb, etc. + Re: ??== System 7.3, ODS-5, Java, Rdb, etc. + Re: ??== System 7.3, ODS-5, Java, Rdb, etc. 	 Re: AD/BC  Alpha PWS Repair in the UK Re: Alpha PWS Repair in the UK Re: Alpha PWS Repair in the UK) Re: AlphaServer 1200 VMS Disk recognition ) Re: AlphaServer 1200 VMS Disk recognition - Announcing the first annual OpenVMS Symposium  Re: Backup /ALIAS  suggestion # Re: Cancelling writes to a log file  Re: Convert Blocks to MB Re: Convert Blocks to MB Re: Convert Blocks to MB( Re: deassigning logical in system table. Re: DEC AMDS VAX 7.3 bug8 Re: DECwindows X11 display server: creating visuals - Re/ Re: Details on the technical program for HP-ETS  Re: FAQ comment ( Help:  Error Linking Samba 2.2.4 for VMS hobbyist license reg Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT RE: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT RE: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT RE: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT RE: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT@ Re: lexicals (was: RE: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION)"D Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMSP Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS   just yawnP Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS   just yawnP Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS  just yawnsP Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!P Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!$ Memo:  Re: Deleting expired licenses( Re: Memo:  Re: Deleting expired licensesF Re: Power Outage leaves master shadow disk unusable, how do i recover?F Re: Power Outage leaves master shadow disk unusable, how do i recover?  Reboot after font daemon patch ?$ Re: Reboot after font daemon patch ?A Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum? > Re: still poor randomness of TCP/IP  sequence numbers in VMS ? Re: Sybase and VMS Re: Sybase and VMS TCP/IP not running fine  Re: TCP/IP not running fine  Re: The Gauntlet is Cast!  Volume Name  Re: Volume Name  Re: Volume Name  Re: Volume Name  Re: Volume Name A Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on A Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on A Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on A Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on A Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on K Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on  OpenVMS?  Re: Whither my VAX...  Re: Whither my VAX...  Re: Whither my VAX...   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:54:15 +0000 (UTC) - From: lewis@spyder.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)  Subject: 7.3-1 craziness. Message-ID: <alqdb7$562$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  I Last night I took the plunge and installed 7.3-1 on my office workstation @ and my nearly-identical hobbyist machine.  Here's what happened:  F The process names assigned by SPAWN used to be predictable!  Now I get  ,     %DCL-S-SPAWNED, process LEWIS_32 spawned  I when LEWIS_1 through LEWIS_31 don't even exist.  I had PF1-PF4 defined to L attach to LEWIS_1 through LEWIS_4 so I could switch between TPU sessions andI the DCL prompt easily in a single telnet window, now I have to re-work it K (maybe I'll write a comfile that does SPAWN/PROC=LEWIS_'i' and increments i  until it succeeds).    Another thing I'm getting is  5     %PTHREAD_CONFIG keyword "vp-count=1" is not valid   B This happens in Mozilla, Java 1.2.2, and Java 1.4.0 (my reason for3 upgrading).  I don't know if it's hurting anything.   H And the upgrade broke one of my critical communications apps again.  NotK sure if it was the VMS 7.3 to 7.3-1 or the TCPIP 5.0A to 5.3 that did it.   J Last time around I was able to fix it by relinking on the upgraded system;J now I'm thinking about changing the distribution so that I ship .OLB filesJ and a script to produce the .EXE they need.  Right now I link in-house andK ship the .EXE.  Does anybody have an opinion about which is better?  I know 5 Wollongong used to ship some .OLBs back in the day...   D My final gotcha was my REPLY/ALL stopped working due to lack of OPERL privilege.  I added an INSTALL command to SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM to fix it, but IK wonder why it worked before.  Did it not need that priv under 7.3 or what?   Not a problem, just a mystery.  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:00:58 -0400 & From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@rcn.com> Subject: Re: 7.3-1 craziness< Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020912115913.04d0feb0@pop.rcn.com>  1 At 03:54 PM 9/12/2002 +0000, you wrote (in part): J >Last night I took the plunge and installed 7.3-1 on my office workstationA >and my nearly-identical hobbyist machine.  Here's what happened:  > G >The process names assigned by SPAWN used to be predictable!  Now I get  > . >     %DCL-S-SPAWNED, process LEWIS_32 spawned > J >when LEWIS_1 through LEWIS_31 don't even exist.  I had PF1-PF4 defined toI >attach to LEWIS_1 through LEWIS_4 so I could switch between TPU sessions     J Did you read the release notes? This is explained there. I don't remember 2 if there is a way to get the "old" way to be used.   Ken Robinson   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:37:57 GMT ( From: "konabear" <maurert@ameritech.net> Subject: Re: 7.3-1 craziness? Message-ID: <Fp3g9.8601$2E6.4269450@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>   1 HINT: Check out the sysgen parameter DCL_CTLFLAGS   H And I strongly recommend reading Release Notes, New Features and Install$ guides, before upgrading OpenVMS. ;)  G BTW the change is for performance improvements. The random number is on L purpose. The old method required sequentially trying <username>_1 through _nI until there wasn't a conflict for the process name withing the UIC group. I The new method makes it much more likely that the first or second attempt I will result in a unique process name.  This cuts down considerably on the 2 time certain heavily contended spinlocks are held.   Todd3 "Ken Robinson" <kenrbnsn1@rcn.com> wrote in message 6 news:5.1.0.14.2.20020912115913.04d0feb0@pop.rcn.com...3 > At 03:54 PM 9/12/2002 +0000, you wrote (in part): L > >Last night I took the plunge and installed 7.3-1 on my office workstationC > >and my nearly-identical hobbyist machine.  Here's what happened:  > > I > >The process names assigned by SPAWN used to be predictable!  Now I get  > > 0 > >     %DCL-S-SPAWNED, process LEWIS_32 spawned > > L > >when LEWIS_1 through LEWIS_31 don't even exist.  I had PF1-PF4 defined toK > >attach to LEWIS_1 through LEWIS_4 so I could switch between TPU sessions  >  > K > Did you read the release notes? This is explained there. I don't remember 4 > if there is a way to get the "old" way to be used. >  > Ken Robinson >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:36:22 +0200 , From: aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de (Hans M. Aus)4 Subject: Re: ??== System 7.3, ODS-5, Java, Rdb, etc.D Message-ID: <aus-1209020936220001@wvia20.virologie.uni-wuerzburg.de>  7 In article <Xns92872BCCE6A7Fhbc@10.0.0.3>, Hans Bachner # <Hans.Bachner@altavista.net> wrote:    ... N > Having said that, my workstation has been running V7.3 from an ODS-5 system N > disk for more than a year now, with only minor glitches (e.g. when adding a K > new satellite root, some directories are created with lower case letters  N > but expected to be upper case later on), which can be worked around. Always M > set the parse style to "traditional" for system management activities like  H > the above, or (most) software installations (Pathworks comes to mind). >    ...   . How do I set the parse style to "traditional"?   --  B Cheers, Hans M. Aus, Wuerzburg, Germany,  aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:44:53 +0200 E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> 4 Subject: Re: ??== System 7.3, ODS-5, Java, Rdb, etc.+ Message-ID: <3D805405.3EC9F69B@mediasec.de>   N > And I must add here that until the current problem I'm working via CSC (justO > elevated to Engineering) is resolved, you shouldn't use ODS-5 on any disk you ( > expect to do /INCREMENTAL restores to.  J Sounds like VMS engineering isn't using their own tools anymore. Or do youK expect that in the time ODS-5 has been in existance - three years at least, A internally? - nobody needed to perform an incremental restore...?    	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:10:49 GMT $ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU4 Subject: Re: ??== System 7.3, ODS-5, Java, Rdb, etc.8 Message-ID: <00A13D9A.D6F4CA86@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  s In article <3D805405.3EC9F69B@mediasec.de>, Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> writes:   O >> And I must add here that until the current problem I'm working via CSC (just P >> elevated to Engineering) is resolved, you shouldn't use ODS-5 on any disk you) >> expect to do /INCREMENTAL restores to.  > K >Sounds like VMS engineering isn't using their own tools anymore. Or do you L >expect that in the time ODS-5 has been in existance - three years at least,B >internally? - nobody needed to perform an incremental restore...?  M I had real trouble believing this myself, but my boss and I demonstrated this K on 7.2-1, 7.2-2 (with rollup patch), and 7.3 (installed straight from CD),  * and again on a different machine with 7.3.  M So I've been trying to figure out why nobody has run into this before.  I can  think of various possibilities:     a) ODS-5 isn't widely used   N     I have no idea what the uptake on ODS-5 has been, but I'd imagine that theM adoption of Java and Java-based technologies would have pushed it in the last I year, and it certainly seems like it would be helpful for Advanced Server  users.  O  b) people who use ODS-5 use volume shadowing and get their backups by breaking -     the volume set and doing an image backup.   K This might be it.  (This seems to be nearly the closest you can come to the O effect that Snapshot Services was supposed to have, where you could quiesce the M disk for a moment, start a snapshot, and then back up the snapshot.  Now you  N can quiese for a moment, break your shadow set, and back up one volume - whichN doesn't impact throughput on the shadow set, so you don't really care how longL it takes and might as well do an image.  That would seem to be attractive toI Advanced Server uses, who can't necessarily track what users are doing to  particular files.)  L   c) Disks are pretty good these days.  If there are few enough ODS-5 users,N or if the ODS-5 users move to bigger/newer disks often enough, or if they onlyN take image backups, maybe there haven't been any catastrophic disk failures on8 ODS-5 disks that required image + incremental restore.      L I dunno.  I've been using ODS-5 since 7.2-1 came out, and this was the firstJ time _I_ needed to do an incremental restore on an ODS-5 volume.  And it'sL probably been ten years since I had to do an incremental restore on an ODS-2 volume.    -- Alan    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:45:14 GMT 8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)4 Subject: Re: ??== System 7.3, ODS-5, Java, Rdb, etc.2 Message-ID: <u%%f9.13$cx6.303156@news.cpqcorp.net>  E In article <aus-1209020936220001@wvia20.virologie.uni-wuerzburg.de>,  . aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de (Hans M. Aus) writes:  / >How do I set the parse style to "traditional"?   ! set HELP SET PROCESS /PARSE_STYLE    --  I       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USA H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 08:10:35 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 4 Subject: Re: ??== System 7.3, ODS-5, Java, Rdb, etc.3 Message-ID: <O8R9eJJHCeRD@eisner.encompasserve.org>   s In article <aus-1109021513290001@wvia20.virologie.uni-wuerzburg.de>, aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de (Hans M. Aus) writes:  > L > Are there any reasons why I shouldn't just initialize all the disks on the > Alpha 400 as ODS-5 disks?   G    You may not be able to share an ODS-5 disk with a VAX running VMS.   G    The VAX won't be able to mount it in a cluster.  Popular NFS servers     don't fully support ODS-5.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 12:56:23 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: AD/BC3 Message-ID: <6wlVyHsLog7E@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <343f30ae.0209120912.4e3e1544@posting.google.com>, SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > G > I say to those who still insist that 12:00 is neither am nor pm: what  > about C > A.D. and B.C.? Historians have determined that Christ was born at A > least a few years before A.D. 1. The Calendar Faq says before 4 
 > B.C.[1]. >   E    Many are now usuing the terminaology C.E. (common era) instead of  0    A.D.  IIRC B.C. then means before common era.  4    Maybe we should all just use  star date instead.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 01:12:59 -0700$ From: issinoho@slayme.com (issinoho)# Subject: Alpha PWS Repair in the UK = Message-ID: <d0141774.0209120012.7069db8e@posting.google.com>   E Does anyone know of UK companies that will undertake the repair of an 0 Alpha PWS 433au other than going direct to HPAQ?  B I'd like to do it for something that would cost slightly less than buying a new one ;-)  % Any experiences in this area, people?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:21:13 -0400 , From: "David Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com>' Subject: Re: Alpha PWS Repair in the UK @ Message-ID: <6r0g9.91083$2L.4466321@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>   Well  , We can do it from the US cheaper than the UK   DT1 "issinoho" <issinoho@slayme.com> wrote in message 7 news:d0141774.0209120012.7069db8e@posting.google.com... G > Does anyone know of UK companies that will undertake the repair of an 2 > Alpha PWS 433au other than going direct to HPAQ? > D > I'd like to do it for something that would cost slightly less than > buying a new one ;-) > ' > Any experiences in this area, people?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:00:32 +0100 = From: "Colin Butcher" <colinDOT.butcherAT@xdeltaDOT.coDOT.uk> ' Subject: Re: Alpha PWS Repair in the UK @ Message-ID: <e_1g9.40160$rd2.29331@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>  J I generally see if I can figure out what broke, then get spares on the 2ndL user market - if I can. If not then I strip out useful bits and pass them onJ / sell them and get a replacement box on the 2nd user market (or sometimes' from anyone who's scrapping a machine).   G In order to do diagnostic work then I try swapping stuff around between H machines - if I believe that the boards I'm swapping around are good andB have no obvious defects - after all I don't want to risk having anG escalating disaster on my hands. I thus try to standardise on a few PCI H boards (ethernet, SCSI, graphics etc.) to minimise the variety of bits I have.   J The biggest problem with the PWS433au (or indeed most machines) will be ifJ one of the main boards dies - if that went then I'd be looking to junk theH box and get a new one with minimal hardware and merge the two to produce something workable.   L If you have to hand it over to someone to fix for you then you'll have to be  prepared to pay for that. Sorry.  K Where are you in the UK? I'm in Bristol, so you can contact me privately if . you want to compare notes. I have a PWS 500au.   -- Hope this helps. Cheers, Colin. ' (colinDOT.butcherAT@xdeltaDOT.coDOT.uk)     1 "issinoho" <issinoho@slayme.com> wrote in message 7 news:d0141774.0209120012.7069db8e@posting.google.com... G > Does anyone know of UK companies that will undertake the repair of an 2 > Alpha PWS 433au other than going direct to HPAQ? > D > I'd like to do it for something that would cost slightly less than > buying a new one ;-) > ' > Any experiences in this area, people?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:43:28 +0100 * From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>2 Subject: Re: AlphaServer 1200 VMS Disk recognition, Message-ID: <alqcm0$10qa@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  A "John.Malmberg" <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq> wrote in message $ news:alnth6$loo$1@web1.cup.hp.com...  I > It has been quite a while since I used those devices, and I do not have G > a manual handy.  And my memory could be off on a few details, I would E > recommend finding the manual or real specifications for the device.   0 Yeah. Me too. Need to check the exact model but:C http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/products/storage/ra230/index.html L may be what you need. It's quite likely that a new a logical volume the full5 size of the new drive needs to be created. Take care!    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 09:16:53 -0700" From: zonle1@hotmail.com (Brandon)2 Subject: Re: AlphaServer 1200 VMS Disk recognition= Message-ID: <c37e04b6.0209120816.6341c87c@posting.google.com>   F I used a utility called "ra200rcu.exe" that allowed me to see that theF controller is a Mylex DAC960.  I view the documentation online, and itC did not say much about changing the RAID set.  Is there a way to do  that? A Does anyone know if it has anything to do with "Maximum blocks in = extent cache"?  Here is what I get when I show dev/full dra4: O ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Disk VMSTRN$DRA4:, device type 1 Member JBOD, is online, mounted, 
 file-oriented F     device, shareable, available to cluster, error logging is enabled.  F     Error count                    0    Operations completed                 15F     Owner process                 ""    Owner UIC                         [1,4];     Owner process ID        00000000    Dev Prot             S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W F     Reference count                1    Default buffer size                 512F     Total blocks            17772544    Sectors per track                    64F     Total cylinders            17356    Tracks per cylinder                  16  F     Volume label            "DEMO01"    Relative volume number                0F     Cluster size                  32    Transaction count                     1F     Free blocks              4110048    Maximum files allowed             62277F     Extend quantity                5    Mount count                           17     Mount status              System    Cache name       "_VMSTRN$DRA0:XQPCACHE" F     Extent cache size             64    Maximum blocks in extent cache   411004F     File ID cache size            64    Blocks in extent cache                0F     Quota cache size               0    Maximum buffers in FCP cache       34503     Volume owner UIC      [B_COMMON]    Vol Prot     S:RWCD,O:RWCD,G:RWCD,W:RWCD   B   Volume Status:  ODS-2, subject to mount verification, write-back caching        enabled.N ------------------------------------------------------------------------------B As you can see, the maximum bloks in extent cache is limited.  Any& thoughts?  Thank you all for you help.   Brandon Long     > K > I am assuming that you have a raid controller known as a SWXCR, of which  H > there was a EISA variant and two PCI variants.  (KZPSA, KZPCA, KZPAC)? > D > As I remember that family of Raid Controllers, there were several  > limitations. > 9 > 1. A Maximum of 8 volumes can be presented to the host.  > > > 2. You can have a maximum of 8 disks in a raidset or a jbod. > D > 3. The Maximum size of a volume created of a raid set or jbod was D > limited to a little bit less than 32GB.  The GUI allowed creating I > slightly larger partitions, but then tended to lock up when you did the  > required initialization step.  > J > It has been quite a while since I used those devices, and I do not have H > a manual handy.  And my memory could be off on a few details, I would E > recommend finding the manual or real specifications for the device.  > F > I think that you also have to use the SWXCR management utility when / > making any changes to the disk configuration.  >  >  > -John # > malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hp  > Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:09:08 -0400 5 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> 6 Subject: Announcing the first annual OpenVMS Symposium* Message-ID: <alqe7e$kta$1@web1.cup.hp.com>   OpenVMS Into the Future   I Hewlett Packard's OpenVMS Engineering organization is pleased to announce I the first annual OpenVMS Symposium. The OpenVMS Symposium will take place G November 19-21 2002 at the Sheraton Tara Hotel in Nashua, NH, USA. This H Symposium is designed for the intermediate - advanced level technologistK wishing to increase their knowledge of OpenVMS and associated technologies.     ' Please visit the Symposium web site at: ( http://www.openvms.compaq.com/symposium/  F The OpenVMS Symposium web site will be changing on a regular basis, so please make sure to stop by.  4 We look forward to your participation at this event.  
 Warm Regards,    Sue    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:08:37 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> & Subject: Re: Backup /ALIAS  suggestion; Message-ID: <01KMEVCP6E029OCZIZ@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   I > I would suggest that the BACKUP /ALIAS /NOALIAS help text be updated to F > have text that clearly spells out what it does in terms of the alias& > file entry and alias file contents.   E At the same time, mention that /NOINCREMENTAL is not the negation of  
 /INCREMENTAL.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:49:47 GMT 9 From: Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com> , Subject: Re: Cancelling writes to a log file/ Message-ID: <3D80A6B3.3C685017@eps.zko.dec.com>    JF Mezei wrote:   ( > Is it possible to do the following : ? > M > as a transaction is being processed, a whole bunch of logging is written to J > file. If the transaction is succesful, then that logging is erased and a: > simpler one line message is written to indicate success. > E > This way, if the transaction fails (or programs crashes), plenty of M > information is available in the logfile. But if everything works fine, then K > that redundant information is removed to remove clutter from the logfile.  > M > Could one use "ftell" at the start of a transaction, write a whole bunch of G > stuff, and if succesful, then "fseek" to go back to the start of that L > transaction's log and then write the one line "success" message and signal9 > that this is the new end of file until the next write ?   N Yes. It is trivial for a non-shared sequential file: Just use the 'Truncate on Put' option. See RMS reference manual: N http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/731FINAL/4523/4523pro_031.html#index_x_1095   hth, Hein.    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Sep 2002 02:06 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) ! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MB - Message-ID: <12SEP200202063732@gerg.tamu.edu>   5 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes...   }briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: }>  ^ }> In article <3D7E2896.C93618B9@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:$ }> > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: }> >> a }> >> In article <3D7D4ADD.45E7B55D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: G }> >> > "Approximation" in this case means "error". The difference *IS*  }> >> > significant! }> >> . }> >> No.  That statement is false in general. }> >E }> > Some commercial aircraft are capable of being flown to a landing M }> > entirely on automation (or so I am told, I've been out of aviation since M }> > the early 90's). Given that, if a plane leaves New York for Honolulu and L }> > the inertial guidance system commits an aggregate error of 3% en route,J }> > instead of landing in Honolulu, I should think that one would need toM }> > remember that one's seat cushion can also be used as a flotation device.  }>  ) }> And your point would be what, exactly?  }>  J }> That 3% in some cases counts as a grossly unacceptable margin of error? }>  < }> That's true and nobody has been arguing with you about it } , }Did you read Carl P.'s latest contribution? }  }--  }David J. Dachtera   Did you?  A Do you have the slightest hint of a clue as to what my point was?    --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Sep 2002 04:22 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) ! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MB - Message-ID: <12SEP200204223358@gerg.tamu.edu>   5 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes...  }Carl Perkins wrote: }>  8 }> "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes...# }> }briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:  }> }> a }> }> In article <3D7D4ADD.45E7B55D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: G }> }> > "Approximation" in this case means "error". The difference *IS*  }> }> > significant! }> }> . }> }> No.  That statement is false in general. }> }D }> }Some commercial aircraft are capable of being flown to a landingL }> }entirely on automation (or so I am told, I've been out of aviation sinceL }> }the early 90's). Given that, if a plane leaves New York for Honolulu andK }> }the inertial guidance system commits an aggregate error of 3% en route, I }> }instead of landing in Honolulu, I should think that one would need to L }> }remember that one's seat cushion can also be used as a flotation device. }> } }> }-- }> }David J. Dachtera  }>  J }> Any person who is not a moron knows that flying aircraft and estimating@ }> the size of something on a disk drive are not the same thing. }  }Obviously.  } I }> Reread the subject line. What do aircraft have to to with this thread?  }  }Ever heard of a "sub-thread"? } H }In this case, the issue is: is 3% an acceptable margin of error or not.G }Various have been asserting yes, I've been disagreeing. The above was    E No you haven't. You have been changing the subject to things that are C irrelevant to the topic at hand while completely missing the point.   C The thread is about disk space. If you want an exact figure for how E much space in MB something is using on the disk (or that the disk has C total or free or whatever), you can get it by dividing by the exact F figure. If you want an estimate you can get very easily by dividing byC 2000. This is trivial to do in you head. It is not quite so trivial I to divide by 2048, and even less trivial to divide by 1953.125, mentally. C Using 2000 gives you a 2.4% error (compared to using 2048). This is F entirely trivial. It doesn't matter. Why? First, if you want the exactK figure you can get it with the conversion factors provided. Second, because G if you are off by 2.4% you will almost certainly not crash an airplane, H you will not kill bunches of people, nor will the world will not come toI an end. It probably won't even result in the slight wounding of someone's  feelings. It is trivial.   }the latest example. } = }Call it: Lesson #5, Usenet 210 (1st semester) if you like...   9 Well, at least we now know where you are in your studies.   G }At work, we're developing (or trying to - new sub-thread danger here!) F }an enterprise backup strategy. I've been asked to assess the existingF }systems and fill in a questionnaire. To provide meaningful numbers, IB }can tolerate no more than a 0.1% error since in our case, 0.1% isE }roughly 4 GB - 4 RZ26s (approx.), 2 RZ28s or one(1) RZ29. Most folks E }would consider 0.1% less than negligible. (Yes, you read that right: > }"less than negligible", as in "not worthy of consideration".) }--  }David J. Dachtera  L I seriously doubt that you really need to know it to the accuracy you claim.  H The variation in the size of a backup saveset of your data can easily beH larger than your margin of error, especially if you are using media withL data compression to store your backups. How do you plan to account for that?  D If you are not using such media to backup to and are instead using aI duplicate set of disks, then it is also unimportant to have such accuracy F because if it fits on one set of disks, it will fit on the matched set of disks. (Well, duh!)  @ The "fill in a questionnaire" thing sounds to me that it is someD bean-counting dufus that wants that kind of accuracy. If so, perhapsD you should explain to that person that such accuracy is irrelevant -E this isn't a airline fight so nobody will be killed if you are off by G a couple of percent, and disk usage fluctuates - quite possibly by more C than that on a monthly or weekly, if not daily, basis in many cases 7 (maybe not yours though, your data may be more static).   H Considering the amount of storage you have, if the size of RZ26s, RZ28s,F or RZ29s seems important to you then rethink what you are doing. It isC no longer 1995 - these drives are old technology (yes we still have H some, but they are no longer as heavily used as they were a couple-threeI of years ago; the main user storage, for e-mail and such in our case, was G moved from being spread across some of them to a single newer disk - it G is noticeably faster now and has more free space than the combined free F space on the old drives the equivalent data used to be on). The amountE of space you are talking about is trivial to not just us (and it is a G considerably higher percentage for me than for you, but still trivial), D but to you too (I can tell because of the amount of storage you justE indicated that you have - if you are using such small drives to build G your 4TB of storage then you really need to update them, which will not F only simultaneously give you more storage and free up drive slots, butG will also take less power to operate, produce less heat, be faster, and G put the drives back under warranty coverage). You can go spend $300 and G get yourself a 40+ GB drive and solve your "accuracy" problem - it will H completely cover all of your margin of error, and then some (by a factorG of 10 or more). (As a data point, you can currently buy a 18.2GB Ultra2 D SCSI 10K RPM hard drive, a Seagate Cheetah type, for under $100 fromE several places shown on Pricewatch. These have double the storage and E higher data transfer rates, including the rate to and from the media, - than the RZ29 that you are so worried about.)   F Besides which, for your purposes you can get an exact number of blocksF used, allocated, and free at any particular time. It is easy enough toF do. And then converting to exact values for other units of measure areH also easy to do (just make sure that your definition of term is the sameE one that the questionnaire is using) if you need to (but not everyone 
 needs to).  H But if all someone wants is an estimate of the size in MB for something,F they can just divide by 2000. It is close enough for most purposes and is easy to do in one's head.  D Example: a backup is proceeding ata rate which you aproximate at 5MBG per second and you know you are around half way done with about another D 17,500,000 blocks to go. You want to know how long it will take. AreF you really going to take the trouble to divide by 2048 instead of 2000J when the "5MB per second" figure is an approximation, as it the 17,500,000J block figure (and it shrinks more if your calculation takes longer, addingG even more inaccuracy)? Or will you just divide by 10,000 (2000 * 5) and C be satisfied with the 1,750 second estimate of time remaining? Does C that 41.015625 second difference really matter to you? (Well, based A on another recent off-topic thread, it might matter if you are in / Switzerland and you are trying to catch a bus.)   > You don't seem to grasp the difference between an estimate (or? approximation) and the exact figure, or understand that in many B cases an estimate is all you need. Notice that the word "estimate"@ is not the same word as "exact". It is not the same word because@ it is not the same thing. If an estimate in some case happens to? produce a figure that is exact, it is purely coincidental. When5D dealing with an estimate one should expect that it will not normallyA be the exact value. It will be different from the exact value. ByaC the definitions of the words, which you might want to look up, this A means that it will involve error. This is the expected result. It E is known that this will happen when one uses an estimate - but nobodyu/ cares because it is how it is expected to work.g  G Here is a question for you: Does the original poster need a figure that / is exact, or is an estimate all that is needed?   B Answer (no fair peaking before you give yours): We don't know. THe- post did not give much in the way of details.t  B Therefore I gave figures to get the exact number in either decimalA or binary MB, and also gave the nice round 2000 figure that givesYB a good estimate of either one of them and is easy to use. That was> my contribution to answer the original question. What has your? contribution been? Something like: "If disk drive space were anT? airliner's navigation, you'd miss Hawaii, crash into the ocean,E= and die with an error that big." How informative. How useful.I   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:49:17 +1000U1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au>S! Subject: Re: Convert Blocks to MBs, Message-ID: <3D80631D.2050807@tg.nsw.gov.au>  H I shan't repeat all of Carl's post.  Suffice to say it is worth a read, F and very reminiscent of Jon Bentley's Programming Pearls.  The two, I 5 think two, articles on back of envelope calculations.E  E As a sidebar, we have often made snapshot evaluations of some of our  > large electrical engineering applications with this technique.   Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************t  C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegede> and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advisetB the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.r  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid gA immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the o= individual sender except where the sender expressly and with  C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid usess> virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment."f  G ***********************************************************************/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:48:19 -0000i/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>t1 Subject: Re: deassigning logical in system table.b/ Message-ID: <uo0vo3p1qdvnc5@corp.supernews.com>t  4 Sandeep Yelwatkar <Sandeep_Yelwatkar@bmc.com> wrote: : I tried executing the command- : $ set proc/priv=(sysprv), : $ DEASSIGN/TABLE=LNM$PROCESS_DIRECTORY TAX ...e@ : "TAX" = "DISK$PIPPIN:[DATA.TESTDATA.V1110]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)  7 Why did you specify LNM$PROCESS_DIRECTORY as the table?t  1 $SHOW LOGICAL says the table is LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:07:32 GMTe. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)! Subject: Re: DEC AMDS VAX 7.3 bug 4 Message-ID: <oPYf9.82072$1S3.2653897@news.chello.at>  ` In article <2178d61f.0209110945.6d36a00a@posting.google.com>, nmanser@progis.de (Manser) writes:Q > I have installed on my vaxstation (vms 7.3)  4000-60 decamds 7.3 data analyser.t > the installation went fine.i? > but when i started the data analyser the node with vaxvms 7.3d9 > doesn't appear,all the nodes with other versions appeare, > in the logfile i got the following message >=H > Copyright (c) 1995 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved.G > %AMDS-W-BADPARAM, bad parameter for program RMCONFIG request for node  > URANUS >r( > have anyone experienced this problem ?  A IIRC I did have problems with AMDS V7.3 on OpenVMS VAX V7.3 only.o   > is there a patch available ?  ; No. But 2 newer AMDS versions which don't show the problem.  Current is AMDS V7.3-1Aa   -- h Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERi% Network and OpenVMS system specialisth E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:56:43 GMT 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> A Subject: Re: DECwindows X11 display server: creating visuals - ReM2 Message-ID: <%O2g9.26$KE6.460894@news.cpqcorp.net>  ? Brass Christof wrote in message <3D7FBED3.4B96D813@spam.not>...s > 9 >Last question: why the depth parameter in XCreateWindow?h >b   I dunno.  Belts and Suspenders?n  G >> Yes/No.  I seldom use it anymore, but since I use it for things like  this -L >> it becomes the bit bucket for 20-30 spam mails a day.  If I recognize theK >> name in the mail, I usually respond - but I end up doing mass deletes on4 a I >> regular basis.  I also have a tendency to file things in a todo bucketn there E >> on occasion when I'm busy - but frequently it becomes a write onlyn bucket.sJ >> I don't recall offhand seeing it, so it may have ended up being deleted as >> spam. > : >Has the problem with the killing color wheel program been> >confirmed or even solved? The problem was that on a TrueColor5 >default visual pressing MB1 to let the colors change ; >immediately blacked out the screen. I didn't find a way tot, >revive the screen other than rebooting VMS.   No idea.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:57:34 GMT-1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> 8 Subject: Re: Details on the technical program for HP-ETS- Message-ID: <OP2g9.296149$aA.51892@sccrnsc02>.  I There is some good content at these URLs. Interesting sessions this year,D too.  K IMHO the future of user groups at HPQ is unknown. Far be it from me to evenaF suggest that HPETS2003 won't be around, but I for sure will be at this year's edition.s  2 Jeff Killeen and his content team done good, IMHO.  K "Encompass - HP Enterprise Technology Symposium" <KilleenJ@toast.net> wrotec4 in message news:unsgde4pb4if04@corp.supernews.com...K > You still have time to register for the HP Enterprise Technical SymposiumsI > and Encompass Technical Exchange trade show, October 6-11 in St. Louis,r > Missouri.c >eG > In order to assist you in sorting through the 400+ in-depth technicaleC > sessions this year we have produced a series of new guides to the 	 SymposiumPI > content. They outline the program content based on areas of interest orn6 > unique sessions of interest within the program. ViewJ > http://www.hpets2002.com/portal/content/highlights.jsp to quickly review them/ > 400+ unique conference offerings by category:  >e; >     Daily Schedule (Symposium and Pre-symposium education  >     Schedules-at-a-Glance)7 >     Technology (Mini-Program Guides and Topic Guides)t! >     Type of Educational Content  >lE > Mini-Program Guides for operating environments and Topic Guides fors specificI > technologies (Tru64, OpenVMS, ProLiant, etc.) are accessible within theyF > "Sessions by Technology" section. These guides offer a comprehensive listingh& > of associated educational offerings. >iJ > Session Guides for broad categories of educational offerings from ExpertJ > Discussions to Case Studies are accessible within the "Sessions by Type" > searchG > capabilities. These guides enable you to review the schedules for thea typese > of training you prefer most. >hL > Register today for the HP Enterprise Technical Symposium and pre-symposiumD > education. For fast and easy registration for either or both visit, > http://www.hpets2002.com/portal/login.jsp. >t- > For Pre-Conference information please visitp; > http://www.encompassUS.org/events/preconregistration.html  > + > We look forward to meeting you St. Louis.e >t >t >t >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:29:41 GMT . From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: FAQ comment4 Message-ID: <98Zf9.82158$1S3.2653897@news.chello.at>  \ In article <3D7F8C47.CD025A87@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:E >Used FETCH_HTTP to get the decw$book version of the VMS FAQ from theu8 >www.openvms.compaq.com web site.  (saves ita s binary). >D6 >The file is being served as application/octet-stream. > J >I tried both binary or non binary modes for fetch_http, and also used setL >file/attrib to force variable length or fixed length 512, and in all cases,& >the bookreader application generates: >M >Error opening books >Title: unknownl0 >File: usrdir:[jfmezei.psion3]vmsfaq.decw$book;1& >Reason: Error reading field in record  & I had no problems downloading the .ZIP( and using the contained VMSFAQ.DECW$BOOK   YMMV   -- - Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialisti E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:43:45 -0600 6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam>1 Subject: Help:  Error Linking Samba 2.2.4 for VMSi0 Message-ID: <7v3g9.19$zV6.26421@news.uswest.net>  ? Below is the results of attempting to link Samba 2.2.4 for VMS.    SYSTEM>set def [.source.vms] SYSTEM>@link Linking SMBD2 %LINK-W-MULDEF, symbol DECC$UTIME multiply definedA         in module DECC$SHR file SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECC$SHR.EXE;1 % %LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 1 undefined symbol:i  %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         SNPRINTF6 %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol SNPRINTF referenced)         in psect $LINK$ offset %X000006B0sJ         in module SERVER file DKA300:[SAMBA$2_2_4.SOURCE.SMBD]SERVER.OBJ;16 %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol SNPRINTF referenced)         in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000980 F         in module UTIL file DKA300:[SAMBA$2_2_4.SOURCE.BIN]SAMBA.OLB;16 %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol SNPRINTF referenced)         in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000050 H         in module SMBRUN file DKA300:[SAMBA$2_2_4.SOURCE.BIN]SAMBA.OLB;1 Linking NMBD% %LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 1 undefined symbol:l  %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         SNPRINTF6 %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol SNPRINTF referenced)         in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000690nF         in module NMBD file DKA300:[SAMBA$2_2_4.SOURCE.NMBD]NMBD.OBJ;16 %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol SNPRINTF referenced)         in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000980sF         in module UTIL file DKA300:[SAMBA$2_2_4.SOURCE.BIN]SAMBA.OLB;16 %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol SNPRINTF referenced)         in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000050nH         in module SMBRUN file DKA300:[SAMBA$2_2_4.SOURCE.BIN]SAMBA.OLB;1 Linking SMBCLIENTy% %LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 1 undefined symbol:e  %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         SNPRINTF6 %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol SNPRINTF referenced)         in psect $LINK$ offset %X000002D0tL         in module CLIENT file DKA300:[SAMBA$2_2_4.SOURCE.CLIENT]CLIENT.OBJ;16 %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol SNPRINTF referenced)         in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000980aF         in module UTIL file DKA300:[SAMBA$2_2_4.SOURCE.BIN]SAMBA.OLB;1 Linking TESTPARM% %LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 1 undefined symbol:r  %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         SNPRINTF6 %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol SNPRINTF referenced)         in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000980oF         in module UTIL file DKA300:[SAMBA$2_2_4.SOURCE.BIN]SAMBA.OLB;1 .i .e> When we attempted to compile from source we got the following:   Compiling UTIL_FILE in LIB Compiling UTIL in LIB  Compiling UTIL_SOCK in LIB Compiling UTIL_SEC in LIBa Compiling ERROR in LIB Compiling FSUSAGE in LIB Compiling HASH in LIB  Compiling INTERFACES in LIBc  3                 if (!(ifr[i].ifr_flags & IFF_UP)) {o* .........................................^> %CC-E-UNDECLARED, In this statement, "IFF_UP" is not declared.H at line number 132 in file DKA300:[SAMBA$2_2_4.SOURCE.LIB]INTERFACES.C;1 %LIBRAR-W-OPENIN, error openingC7 DKA300:[SAMBA$2_2_4.SOURCE.LIB]INTERFACES.OBJ; as inputk -RMS-E-FNF, file not found) %DELETE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching forp/ DKA300:[SAMBA$2_2_4.SOURCE.LIB]INTERFACES.OBJ;*' -RMS-E-FNF, file not found Compiling MESSAGES in LIB0 Compiling MS_FNMATCH in LIBe Compiling NETATALK in LIBe Compiling PAM_ERRORS in LIBt .7 .  VMS Version:5 Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.1e6   on a AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB running OpenVMS V7.3   Anyone know how to fix this.   Thanks,g	 Mike Ober. Wakefield & Associates, Inc.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:20:42 +0100 5 From: Peter Watkinson <peter.watkinson1@ntlworld.com>  Subject: hobbyist license regg? Message-ID: <Fm1g9.1462$Cw1.72148@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>u  	 Hi folks,r   AT the Montagar License reg5    % Hobbyist OpenVMS License Registratione   page   it says cpu type   then   cpu serial number.  H I have an XP1000 workstation this isn't listed. AM I supposed to unscrewG the heatsink then look at the cpu to get the cpu serial number? Is thisl absolutely neccesary?H   cheers,n   Peter  peter.watkinson1@ntlworld.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 00:50:54 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> % Subject: Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERTe, Message-ID: <3D801D16.49B9EB91@videotron.ca>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:F > The issue is not "revenge" against any one person. The issue is thatG > Iraq lost "the Gulf War", but acts as if it had won, since that is inrJ > fact what it told its own people (as documented in the western press andI > other media). To save face, the government of Iraq *MUST* defy the U.N.nF > The fact that the U.S. is the only super-power in a position to take4 > *ANY* kind of action is purely co-incidental, IMO.    K When Andrew makes a claim against VMS or pro SUN, he is tasked with provingeM his statements, especially sicne he is the only one in this group making such) a statement.  L If the US government is the only one making certain claims, with some of itsJ citizens denying those, and other governments also denying or stating theyM won't support unless provided with proof, isn't it normal to demand that your-" government provide proof of this ?  N Afghanistan's government had implicitely participated in 9-11. Its invasion toK oust that terrorist-supporting government and try to dismantla Al-Qaeda had + the support of the international community.u  K However,  Irak has not mounted an attack against the USA.   Imagine if Irak L had made unbacked claims that Kuwait had weapons of mass descruction and hadN to be invaded. Would the rest of the world have permitted it ? Then why shouldJ it permit any other country from attacking Irak with unproved allegations.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:22:56 +1000p1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au>n% Subject: Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERTa* Message-ID: <3D805CF0.90209@tg.nsw.gov.au>   David J. Dachtera wrote: > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > J >>Confusing the right to free speech and appropriate places to express it?N >>Never mind, you started this thing, and since it is the usenet, I expect 4003 >>replies to clog what whould be a technical forum.p >  > G > Well, alrighty, then! I guess that's the thanx I get for trying to beaJ > helpful and considerate of my fellow Americans - who might not have beenI > near a radio or TV during their business day yesterday - and colleagues  > around the world.e > B > When some terrorist(s) release a cloud of bio-toxin on the windsF > approaching some densely populated area that has 12 hours or less toF > evacuate, I'll be certain not to bother the group with any off-topic > posts about. > H > Fuck 'em - let 'em die! If not's not about VMS, don't post it! Fred K. > has issued the edict!o >    David,  ( I suspect this is a histrionic outburst.  C I've never met you, probably never will,  I'm here and you're over iC there.  I enjoy reading your VMS comments, but you do have a Uriah oJ Heepish attitude.  And now a "world [or Fred] is against me" attitude too.  I I lived in London in the 70s, and was close one way or the other to some  H of the IRA atrocities.  I was in the Oxford Circus Underground when the E bomb was discovered, but down on a different platform and not in the l ticketing area.e  H When the Old Bailey bomb went off, I was waiting for my (pregnant) wife I and sister-in-law who would have come past at that time.  Excepting that nF women being women they stopped off at some shops.  The windows in our F building two shielded blocks away shook, and when I was told what had A happened, I just ran to the police cordons -- probably screaming.m  F As I said before, it does not matter what the magnitude is.  Greif is F greif.  A nation might take on grief, but it is really the people who I have lost someone who do know what grief is.  Until I found that my wife uG was safe, my god, I experienced something very bad.  (The child is now m around 30).h  H Someone (Jan-Erik?) mentioned the kids dying of starvation -- the grief E of their mothers must be terrible.  And yes, it is the same, kids in o? many nations are starving because, as he also said, the rulers hF (including US, UK and Australia) believe that arms are more important > than people.  You don't have destitute, homeless people in US?  F  From an earlier post, my use of "revenge" may not be quite accurate,  but I suspect it is close.  @ To go back to where you mentioned VMS, in the scenario that you G postulated you would surely alert all "friends -- even Fred, to ensure h that VMS kept going :-)y   Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************t  C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegedo> and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise B the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.e  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid  A immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the  = individual sender except where the sender expressly and with 0C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid usesn> virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment."7  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:38:15 +1000 1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> % Subject: Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT * Message-ID: <3D806087.10405@tg.nsw.gov.au>  3 Fred Kleinsorge wrote (Replying to David Dachtera):u  J > Confusing the right to free speech and appropriate places to express it?D > Never mind, you started this thing, and since it is the usenet, I  > expect 4003 > replies to clog what whould be a technical forum.c   Fred,   * Aren't you a pot calling the kettle black?  I You have not been averse to "political" discussion, nor carrying several  ' threads into personal slanging matches.   
 With respect.i   Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************D  C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegedi> and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advisehB the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.f  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid ZA immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the t= individual sender except where the sender expressly and with uC authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid usesf> virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment."r  G ***********************************************************************t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:02:30 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>u% Subject: Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT & Message-ID: <3D806636.807699A@aaa.com>   Paddy O'Brien wrote: >  > I > Someone (Jan-Erik?) mentioned the kids dying of starvation -- the grief F > of their mothers must be terrible.  And yes, it is the same, kids in$ > many nations are starving because,   Yes, I sad (more or less) that.    > as he also said, the rulers.G > (including US, UK and Australia) believe that arms are more important- > than people.  H No, I *didn't* say that. I'm not saying you're wrong, but *I* didn't say that....   Best Regards Jan-Erik Sderholm.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:07:35 -0400n; From: "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>i% Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERTsK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E49028BEAA7@rlghncst964.usps.gov>1  : The real reason behind virtually all of this starvation=201 is the fact that most of the foreign aid, whethern7 in financial or commodity form, is diverted from its=20g: intended use by the kleptocratic despots who hold power=20 in these counties.  7 You will also find a direct relationship between hungerp9 levels and the level of economic freedom in each country;s8 there are usually bureaucratic barriers to individual=20: entrepreneurship (cronyism, bribe-taking, e.g.) in such=20 countries. =20  < OTOH, capitalism (in the form of microloans, for example)=20: has been found to be an extremely cost-effective way to=208 address this problem where such economic freedom exists.  ; It's the old 'give a man a fish' vs. 'teach a man to fish'.s   Regards,   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----1 From: "Jan-Erik S=F7derholm" [mailto:aaa@aaa.com] * Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 6:02 AM To: "Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com"=20% Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT      Paddy O'Brien wrote: >C >EE > Someone (Jan-Erik?) mentioned the kids dying of starvation -- the =9 grief F > of their mothers must be terrible.  And yes, it is the same, kids in$ > many nations are starving because,   Yes, I sad (more or less) that.o   > as he also said, the rulers G > (including US, UK and Australia) believe that arms are more important  > than people.  F No, I *didn't* say that. I'm not saying you're wrong, but *I* didn't = saye that....   Best Regards Jan-Erik S=F6derholm.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:21:45 -0400n; From: "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>a% Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERTgK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E49028BEAA8@rlghncst964.usps.gov>   . I try to stay out of these non-VMS threads but, there are times when the clue vacuum gets so& strong that it pulls in the unwilling.  1 The use of chemical weapons against the Kurds haso been documented.  6 Saddam's son-in-law, Hussein Kamel Hassan, was heavily0 involved in Iraq's weapons development programs.  3 He defected and has made numerous public statementsJ5 about what Iraq is doing wrt NBC weapons development.c  1 Do a little websearching on his name and see the A details.  5 President Bush is going to address the U.N. today and-* I think he's going to make the case there.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----6 From: "JF Mezei" [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]+ Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 12:50 PMd To: "Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com" % Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERTv     "David J. Dachtera" wrote:F > The issue is not "revenge" against any one person. The issue is thatG > Iraq lost "the Gulf War", but acts as if it had won, since that is ineJ > fact what it told its own people (as documented in the western press andI > other media). To save face, the government of Iraq *MUST* defy the U.N.*F > The fact that the U.S. is the only super-power in a position to take4 > *ANY* kind of action is purely co-incidental, IMO.    K When Andrew makes a claim against VMS or pro SUN, he is tasked with proving H his statements, especially sicne he is the only one in this group making such a statement.  L If the US government is the only one making certain claims, with some of itsJ citizens denying those, and other governments also denying or stating theyH won't support unless provided with proof, isn't it normal to demand that your" government provide proof of this ?  K Afghanistan's government had implicitely participated in 9-11. Its invasions toK oust that terrorist-supporting government and try to dismantla Al-Qaeda hadg+ the support of the international community.'  K However,  Irak has not mounted an attack against the USA.   Imagine if Irak L had made unbacked claims that Kuwait had weapons of mass descruction and hadG to be invaded. Would the rest of the world have permitted it ? Then whya shouldJ it permit any other country from attacking Irak with unproved allegations.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:36:19 GMTt5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>r% Subject: Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT>2 Message-ID: <DD1g9.21$yB6.386137@news.cpqcorp.net>  @ Paddy O'Brien wrote in message <3D806087.10405@tg.nsw.gov.au>...4 >Fred Kleinsorge wrote (Replying to David Dachtera): >aK >> Confusing the right to free speech and appropriate places to express it?oD >> Never mind, you started this thing, and since it is the usenet, I
 >> expect 400e4 >> replies to clog what whould be a technical forum. >( >Fred, >t+ >Aren't you a pot calling the kettle black?  >lI >You have not been averse to "political" discussion, nor carrying severaln( >threads into personal slanging matches. >r  K I resist as best I can.  After the Bill Todd show a year ago, it drove homenL to me that this is not an appropriate forum for such discussions.  I clammedJ up, and set filters to get rid of all the terrorism/war/politics/off topicI discussions - the least David could have done is to flag this thread withf OT.t  I First off, nobody's mind is changed - I've yet to see someone write "gee, E now that you state your position so well, I'm compelled to abandon myEJ position".  Second, I probably don't want to know your polical beliefs anyL more than you want to know mine.  Best case we simply agree (so what), worstL case we lose respect for each other and taint how we deal with each other onK a technical/professional basis.  Lastly, these things tend to be polarizingiF with people driven further to the left or right of where they probablyL really are, in an attempt to defend their positions.  Do I really think BillH would participate in a terrorist attack on the US?  He implied this in aG message a year ago.  Do I really think Terry thinks of people of middle J eastern descent as "towel heads"?  I also don't think so.  But in the heatJ of these off-topic debates, things get a little over the top, and a littleI too heated.  People say things they shouldn't.  I say things I shouldn't.y  K If David's intent in his note was to tell us all that there was an event ingH progress, or an immediate danger that we needed to take action on - thenI hey - thanks for the public service.  It didn't come off to me like that.kH We've had weeks leading up to yesterday with all forms of dire warnings.F Having another unspecified warning in a string of unspecified warningsI doesn't seem to me to be something anyone in here needed from this forum. F If I had been in an airplane, or in a crowded public space - I already- *would* have been on a higher state of alert.i  I The question now is will this thread continue until the end of September,eK and how many people will join into the fray of trading insults, threats andiI sarcasm.  David already has me pegged for some kind of newsgroup dictatoro$ who wants to get rid of free speech.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 09:49:35 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)r% Subject: Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERTe3 Message-ID: <6KReDDCCZ6oG@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  [ In article <3D800633.31CD5415@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:   : Please restrict comp.os.vms discussion to relevant topics.  C This one is problematic to killfile based on title because there isnD a good chance that sometime there might be a relevant post using the same title.r   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 09:50:24 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)s% Subject: Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERTe3 Message-ID: <PnJIDj0KOXdO@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  ^ In article <3D805CF0.90209@tg.nsw.gov.au>, Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> writes:  = Please restrict your posts in comp.os.vms to relevant topics.f   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 09:50:57 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)o% Subject: Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT 3 Message-ID: <9YVlEHsSb7gp@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  b In article <3D806636.807699A@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:  = Please restrict your posts in comp.os.vms to relevant topics.u   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 09:51:25 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen).% Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERTr3 Message-ID: <HALi3ToGhHcU@eisner.encompasserve.org>a   In article <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E49028BEAA7@rlghncst964.usps.gov>, "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov> writes:r  = Please restrict your posts in comp.os.vms to relevant topics.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:19:59 -0400p2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>% Subject: Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERTi- Message-ID: <3D80BEAF.1974F9E@mindspring.com>    "David J. Dachtera" wrote:  I > The issue with Sadly Insane himself is that he is a lying barbarian whouG > will stop at nothing to further his own personal image in the eyes ofeG > his (captive) nation. The issue is the danger he poses as a terroriste< > sympathizer and/or proponent, even as a terrorist himself.  - That could, of course, describe another worldl% leader, one who is *KNOWN* to possessc* Nuclear, excuse me, "Nukular", Biological,) and Chemical Weapons of Mass Destruction.s   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:31:40 -0400l2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>% Subject: Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT). Message-ID: <3D80C16C.C5E85E3F@mindspring.com>  $ "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" wrote:  8 > Saddam's son-in-law, Hussein Kamel Hassan, was heavily2 > involved in Iraq's weapons development programs. >i5 > He defected and has made numerous public statementsm7 > about what Iraq is doing wrt NBC weapons development.. > 2 > Do a little websearching on his name and see the
 > details. >l7 > President Bush is going to address the U.N. today andt, > I think he's going to make the case there.  4 I wonder if we'll again use bulldozers to plow-under6 fleeing Iraqi soldiers? Maybe this time we'll just fry1 them with Fuel-Air bombs ("The next best thing to  Nukular[tm]!) ?e  2 And speaking of Nukular, how many tons of depleted2 uranium did we leave laying around the desert? And* how many unexploded cluster-bomb bomblets?  1 Yeah, we're definitely on the side of the angels.x  2 Amerca is about to go to war because, politically,1 Saddam Hussein outlived Dubya's daddy, so there'sd0 a grudge to be settled, and they've been waiting$ a decade for an excuse to settle it.  3 Personally, I'd rather they settled it mano-a-mano,t2 with say, handguns at 20 paces. At least that way,3 the world would be sure to be rid of at least *ONE*0# immature fascist dictator-wanna-be.    Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 10:12:17 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)% Subject: Re: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT = Message-ID: <343f30ae.0209120912.4e3e1544@posting.google.com>r  h Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<2sJR8qnd2e6E@eisner.encompasserve.org>... > Please STOP this thread. > L > Killfiling by title is not an option, since someday someone might actually: > use this title for something relevant to this newsgroup.  / OK. I'll try to kill the thread with this post.   E *** NB: I'M TRYING TO KILL THIS THREAD. PLEASE MAKE A NOTE OF IT. ***u  ? *** AND IF THIS DOESN'T KILL THIS THREAD, I'LL REPOST THIS POSTo> ENTIRELY IN UPPER CASE *** HORRORS!!! *** (Okay, maybe I won't bother.) ***  E I say to those who still insist that 12:00 is neither am nor pm: whatv abouttA A.D. and B.C.? Historians have determined that Christ was born ate? least a few years before A.D. 1. The Calendar Faq says before 4l B.C.[1].  7 So the whole A.D./B.C. system falls apart using literalwF interpretations. Not only do we now know that the current numbering is< wrong, but we also don't know by how much!!! And the literal8 interpretation of A.D. depends on your religous beliefs.  D The sensible, modern interpretation of A.D. and B.C. is that we justA continue with the current count, even though it is "wrong" in the B literal sense. Thus, A.D. and B.C. have acquired a new, additional  meaning. The terms have evolved.  E So, since we can't go by the literal interpretation of A.D. and B.C.,eF and since we just use the sensible alternative, namely, stick with theA current numbering, I see nothing wrong with modernizing the am/pmkC system by having 12 a.m. denote midnight and 12 p.m. denote 12 noonaD (where noon is defined as 1200 standard time and midnight is definedD as 0000 standard time). And there are also all my previous arguments which I won't rehash here.   [1]:  O http://www.pauahtun.org/CalendarFAQ/cal/node3.html#SECTION003130000000000000000k  = (Home page is at http://www.tondering.dk/claus/calendar.html)t  E *** NB: I'M TRYING TO KILL THIS THREAD. PLEASE MAKE A NOTE OF IT. ***y  = Extra note: At least dje is not bothering us with those peskyhE "unimportant" security alerts! I can see it now: UNIMPORTANT SECURITYe ALERT!!!   Disclaimer: JMOl Alan E. Feldmanf   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 12:52:57 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)*% Subject: RE: IMPORTANT SECURITY ALERT*3 Message-ID: <Yxr6HdQ5uG0i@eisner.encompasserve.org>m   In article <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E49028BEAA8@rlghncst964.usps.gov>, "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov> writes:e > 7 > President Bush is going to address the U.N. today and , > I think he's going to make the case there.  A    Much more important to me is that he has said he will seek thedA    blessing of Congress and the support of the American people.  a  D    Influential members of Congress do have access to the secrets he D    can't share with the U.N., can't share with the American public, :    and even those he probably can't share with Tony Blair.  H    I don't normally hold too much faith in the politicians, after all itK    was they who sent so many to VietNam, but I do want to see the reaction *G    of those in the know.  Only then will I have a real grasp on whether-H    Iraq is close to a weapon of mass destruction, or whether the currentE    president just feels he had some kind of destiny to finish the job     his father felt he couldn't.o  E    If Bush can't convince Congress and cannot drum up support amongstcD    Americans, our allies and others around the world should clearly 1    stand against him and be wary of his policies.   E    If he convinces Congress and the American people there really is a F    problem now in Iraq; and England, or just some of its leaders, are G    the only ones willing to stand up with us, well nothing's new there.   E    I was much more sceptical of George W. Bush before Tony Blair came D    out in his support.  I don't think the PM is that easy to sway orH    leans toward anywhere near the same politics.  I do believe that Bush0    gave Blair details that he can't make public.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 08:08:46 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) I Subject: Re: lexicals (was: RE: SET PROTECTION (SET SECURITY/PROTECTION)" 3 Message-ID: <XJNFEcd8+Dkq@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  [ In article <3D800310.5EDCAF5D@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:r  C > If DCL supported floats, I could even see letting that behind ther, > "brains" behind a new lexical: F$FORMAT().  "    Redundant with f$fao, isn't it?   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 12:36:53 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)uM Subject: Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMSa3 Message-ID: <F2kczsuepImB@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  T In article <3D7F714D.9EBA1DB7@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> writes: > jlsue wrote:G >> Now to really compare apples-to-apples, use Windows 2000 Data Center   >> licenses vs OpenVMS licenses. > # > NO! This is exactly the problem. o > O > VMS is restricted to the "Data center licences" while competitors have a muchgH > wider variety of licences from very affordable entry level ones to the > top-of-class data-center one.>  B    You mean HP should spend money creating a variation of VMS thatE    crashes three times a day and is full of security holes, then selln    it cheap?  G    I think they've got a much better chance of getting to the low cost 0F    VMS solution if they keep spending money on the IPF port, then come,    out with a new low cost licensing backet.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:01:28 -0500e& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>Y Subject: Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS   just yawns8 Message-ID: <9d31ou4ue6ajnmqvgvhdr89mg8jicbdf5v@4ax.com>  , On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:01:22 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:e  
 >jlsue wrote: F >> But the competitor, low-end products (especially Windows) do not goC >> through the exhaustive qualification that VMS does for supported 
 >> platforms.r >a >eI >So, what you are saying is that you should prevent VMS from competing in ( >markets where you have low quality OS.   F No.  That's not what I said.  But it does affect the cost of producingC & supporting the low-end products.  *You* may choose to ignore thishB fact, but the company who makes the money with the products can't.   > K >VMS should compete in areas where it has an edge over the low quality OS. oG >Quality is becoming a very important issue now that wintel weenies are K >realising the problems of microsoft. Security is becoming a very important O >issue now that managers are realising their their windows weenies are spendingnO >their time applying patches and fixing problems instead of improving corporates& >infrastructure. And the list goes on.  E Sure, but again, there's a trade-off that if we decide not to perform.B the qualifications on the low-end systems, the result could easily/ become a parity in the reliability comparisons.    >wI >If you price is too high, one thing is certain: you will not make sales. O >If price is lower, you can compete and gain market share. And guess what, whatiM >is wo wrong with VMS regaining some market share in smaller systems and heckh >even workstations ?  E I have no problem with selling the systems, but we still need to make B money at it.  I sincerely doubt that we should put too much of our@ resources into the effort to try to "gain marketshare" from a PC market.   A I also realize that having a lower-cost option to get ISVs in therF market is a great idea - though I have no clout within this company to make any changes in this area.   >sH >If Microsoft cam set its eyes on an unattainable (for it) goal of beingI >enterprise-class, surely VMS can set its goals to re-enter the lower endsG >markets which it is technically capable of and needs only a refresh ini >available software.  E I don't believe this is all it "needs".  You may be willing to acceptsF some lower level of reliability in the low-end market, but many othersF have come to expect better; and one of our goals should be to maintain a higher level of reliability.  = I don't see how one can expect that a system+OS that has veryoA controlled hardware variability, with a significant qualificationr9 effort and higher reliability, should be capable of beingaD cost-competitive with a throw-away system that may have a huge arrayF of possible hardware combinations, and almost no qualification effort.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:34:42 -0400A% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>eY Subject: Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS   just yawno/ Message-ID: <uo1d0j7kbohcfc@news.supernews.com>i  3 "jlsue" <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> wrote in messaget2 news:9d31ou4ue6ajnmqvgvhdr89mg8jicbdf5v@4ax.com.... > On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:01:22 -0400, JF Mezei' > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:  >I > >jlsue wrote:yH > >> But the competitor, low-end products (especially Windows) do not goE > >> through the exhaustive qualification that VMS does for supporteda > >> platforms.e > >e  I Yes, they do.  It's called Windows 2000 Datacenter Edition and it costs a] LOT.   > >oK > >So, what you are saying is that you should prevent VMS from competing in ) > >markets where you have low quality OS.C >OH > No.  That's not what I said.  But it does affect the cost of producingE > & supporting the low-end products.  *You* may choose to ignore this D > fact, but the company who makes the money with the products can't. >- > >-L > >VMS should compete in areas where it has an edge over the low quality OS.I > >Quality is becoming a very important issue now that wintel weenies areMC > >realising the problems of microsoft. Security is becoming a veryr	 importanttH > >issue now that managers are realising their their windows weenies are spendingG > >their time applying patches and fixing problems instead of improving 	 corporate ( > >infrastructure. And the list goes on. >;G > Sure, but again, there's a trade-off that if we decide not to performND > the qualifications on the low-end systems, the result could easily1 > become a parity in the reliability comparisons.  >V  K Are you suggesting that when the Itanium port is released, HP should refusee+ to license OpenVMS on unqualified hardware?t  H When OpenVMS/IA-64 is released I hope that HP comes up with pricing thatJ mimics Microsoft.  If you want an OpenVMS license, it's $300.  If you callL for support, have your credit card ready.  If you want an OpenVMS license onF qualified hardware with support, it's $3,000.  If you need a developerK license, it's $1,000 a year for everything HP has.  A single person can run B the software on as many machines as they need to but it's only forH development use, not production.  Just take a Microsoft MSDN License and change Microsoft to HP.D   > >eK > >If you price is too high, one thing is certain: you will not make sales. L > >If price is lower, you can compete and gain market share. And guess what, whatJ > >is wo wrong with VMS regaining some market share in smaller systems and heck > >even workstations ? >RG > I have no problem with selling the systems, but we still need to makeLD > money at it.  I sincerely doubt that we should put too much of ourB > resources into the effort to try to "gain marketshare" from a PC	 > market.K >fC > I also realize that having a lower-cost option to get ISVs in theOH > market is a great idea - though I have no clout within this company to  > make any changes in this area. >t > >0J > >If Microsoft cam set its eyes on an unattainable (for it) goal of beingK > >enterprise-class, surely VMS can set its goals to re-enter the lower end I > >markets which it is technically capable of and needs only a refresh in  > >available software. >tG > I don't believe this is all it "needs".  You may be willing to acceptSH > some lower level of reliability in the low-end market, but many othersH > have come to expect better; and one of our goals should be to maintain  > a higher level of reliability. >i? > I don't see how one can expect that a system+OS that has verynC > controlled hardware variability, with a significant qualification(; > effort and higher reliability, should be capable of being.F > cost-competitive with a throw-away system that may have a huge arrayH > of possible hardware combinations, and almost no qualification effort. >1  I There's no added cost in selling low-end OpenVMS licenses for unqualified.L hardware.   The main fear that HP will have is that selling low-end licensesJ will cannibalize their high-end, qualified sales.  If HP doesn't eat their young, someone else will.G   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:00:35 GMTp# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> Y Subject: Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS  just yawns/A Message-ID: <Td0g9.88$U_.86@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>n  3 "jlsue" <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> wrote in message-2 news:m0bvnu4lmtgqqh3u933v0t0sdk98t693so@4ax.com... >0E > But the competitor, low-end products (especially Windows) do not gojB > through the exhaustive qualification that VMS does for supported > platforms. >i" > It's still not apples-to-apples.    J So what. The facts are that without the lower cost target, many businessesJ who could use VMS can't afford it. Why do you think Mercedes offers models other than the top-of-the-line?s  G Once you have the quality, it's the marketing, stupid. Always has been,i always will be.c  E And even if you don't have quality, it's still the marketing. A small-> company you might have heard of proves this daily - Microsoft.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:28:40 GMTS4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!T0 Message-ID: <3D80BF0B.C63DAE58@blueyonder.co.uk>   jlsue wrote:  o > E > But the competitor, low-end products (especially Windows) do not gotB > through the exhaustive qualification that VMS does for supported > platforms. > " > It's still not apples-to-apples.  B We know that. Try telling it to the microsoft buying/using public.   Regards, -- i tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk e  H * PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:58:30 +0100n/ From: John W <johnwallace4@nospam.yahoo.co.uk.> Y Subject: Re: license costs (was: RE: Microsoft reeling from hack attacks, VMS just yawns!g0 Message-ID: <3D808166.80203@nospam.yahoo.co.uk.>   <big snip, longish post, sorry> E If you're doing a pre-buying comparison between VMS and Windows 2000 eB Datacenter Edition, there are a couple of other things to look at @ besides already-mentioned stuff like price to buy, and price of H essential add-ons (e.g. basic backup and job control included with VMS,  add-ons needed on Win2K).e  G The few Compaq people that know about this probably don't want to rock oH their boat, and the coin-op consultants and analysts already know which   is best for you before you call.  H I'm going to assume that you've already considered hardware things such H as the value of a simple serial console for remote manageability, which 2 might get lost if you're only looking at software.   In no particular order:C   (1) Price of support  H Windows 2000 Data Center Edition comes with *compulsory* high level (ie B very expensive) support contract, which must be purchased for all B systems from day one. With VMS you have the flexibility to choose F whether you want support, and who you want it from, and when you need @ cover. Good luck finding any published figures for the price of I Datacenter support (and once they've got you, unlike VMS, where else can e! you turn when the price goes up?)      (2) Patch availability  C Obviously there are lots of Win2K patches. For DataCenter edition,  G patches are supposed to get additional "extensive testing" (2 weeks?!) rF before release, and then are only available from the hardware vendor, . who apparently may want extra money for them: G http://www.compaq.com/support/files/datacenter/us/index.html When Code n@ Red happened, it was *weeks* before the Datacenter patches were  available from Compaq.     (3) Supported hardware list ? http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/datacenter/HCL/default.aspr  E The supported hardware list for Win2K DC isn't exactly long. Compaq,  C Dell and HP each offer slight variants of one Datacenter-certified  H platform, and it's the biggest Wintel 8way they have. You get to choose E from more than one storage subsystem, though. HP and Compaq both had dC 32-ways. Compaq gave up on their rebadged 32way Unisys after a few  $ months; dunno about HP (it's not on T http://www.hp.com/solutions1/microsoft/windows2000/solutions/downloads/index.html). % There's more hardware on the VMS SPD..     (4) Support quality   D When it misbehaves, who would you rather have looking at your crash G dumps? A VMS specialist, on a system architected from the ground up to dI be a "trusted computing platform" (meaning secure and reliable). Or a PC oG specialist from a company whose product security and reliability is so nE well-known that they had to redefine "trusted computing platform" to nC mean "recording industry revenue protector" (TCPA = Digital Rights   Management, Palladium, etc).    < (5) Shatter (see http://security.tombom.co.uk/shatter.html )  D If you are involved with Windows and haven't read about the Shatter F exploit, you need to have a look. Fortunately MS were already talking I about abandoning the Win32 API for something typesafe in the .NET future uG (Longhorn? Blackcomb? I forget...) Then where's your cost of ownership a gone ?    3 Corrections, clarifications, and additions welcome.    regardse john   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:48:58 +0100r From: paul.beaudoin@hsbc.com- Subject: Memo:  Re: Deleting expired licenseslE Message-ID: <OF41F118BA.A5498B06-ON80256C32.0056D020@systems.uk.hsbc>    Thanks!d  + Been trying to get around to this for ages.*   Paul        ' ** HSBC's website is at www.hsbc.com **s  D ********************************************************************B  This message and any attachments are confidential to the ordinaryB  user of the e-mail address to which it was addressed and may also>  be privileged. If you are not the addressee you may not copy,8  forward, disclose or use any part of the message or itsC  attachments and if you have received this message in error, pleasedB  notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete it from
  your system.n  =  Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure oreA  error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, >  arrive late or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not?  accept liability for any errors or omissions in the context of ?  this message which arise as a result of Internet transmission.*  *D  Any opinions contained in this message are those of the author and ?  are not given or endorsed by the HSBC Group company or office j=  through which this message is sent unless otherwise clearly @A  indicated in this message and the authority of the author to so )3  bind the HSBC entity referred to is duly verified.r  D ********************************************************************   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 11:03:52 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a1 Subject: Re: Memo:  Re: Deleting expired licenses 3 Message-ID: <yCV$ZIOa3JkW@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  d In article <OF41F118BA.A5498B06-ON80256C32.0056D020@systems.uk.hsbc>, paul.beaudoin@hsbc.com writes: > 	 > Thanks!* > - > Been trying to get around to this for ages.l >  > Paul >  >  >  > ) > ** HSBC's website is at www.hsbc.com **d > F > ********************************************************************D >  This message and any attachments are confidential to the ordinaryD >  user of the e-mail address to which it was addressed and may also@ >  be privileged. If you are not the addressee you may not copy,: >  forward, disclose or use any part of the message or itsE >  attachments and if you have received this message in error, pleasexD >  notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete it from >  your system.r > ? >  Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or C >  error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost,f@ >  arrive late or contain viruses. The sender therefore does notA >  accept liability for any errors or omissions in the context of-A >  this message which arise as a result of Internet transmission.  >  rF >  Any opinions contained in this message are those of the author and A >  are not given or endorsed by the HSBC Group company or office r? >  through which this message is sent unless otherwise clearly gC >  indicated in this message and the authority of the author to so n5 >  bind the HSBC entity referred to is duly verified.v > F > ********************************************************************  * We're not happy until you're not happy :-)  A IMPORTANT: This email is intended for the use of  the  individualsA addressee(s)  named  above  and  may  contain information that is A confidential,  privileged  or  unsuitable  for  overly  sensitive-A persons  with  low  self-esteem, no sense of humour or irrationalWA religious beliefs. If you are not  the  intended  recipient,  anyRA dissemination,  distribution  or  copying  of  this  email is notlA authorised (either explicitly or implicitly) and  constitutes  ansA irritating  social  faux  pas. Unless the word absquatulation has A been used in its correct context somewhere  other  than  in  thisuA warning, it does not have any legal or grammatical use and may be.A ignored. No animals were  harmed  in  the  transmission  of  thissA email,  although  the  yorkshire  terrier  next door is living onaA borrowed time, let me tell you. Those of you with an overwhelmingiA fear  of  the unknown will be gratified to learn that there is noiA hidden message revealed by reading  this  warning  backwards,  soeA just ignore that Alert Notice from Microsoft: However, by pouringsA a complete circle of salt around yourself and your  computer  you.A can  ensure  that  no harm befalls you and your pets. If you havesA received this email in error, please  add  some  nutmeg  and  egg A whites  and place it in a warm oven for 40 minutes. Whisk briefly0A and   let    it    stand    for    2    hours    before    icing.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 01:27:21 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>.O Subject: Re: Power Outage leaves master shadow disk unusable, how do i recover?I+ Message-ID: <3D80259D.1EFA3D4@videotron.ca>i   Brian Hechinger wrote:F > $ mount/sys dsa2: /shadow=($1$DKA500:,$1$DKA600:,$1$DKA900:) webdata$ > %MOUNT-I-OPRQST, medium is offlineL > %MOUNT-I-OPRQST, Please mount volume WEBDATA in device _$1$DKA500: (BULMA)  N Is DKA500 one of those old disk drives that spin so fast and with so much massL that the platters can be ejected at high speed ? It would explain why VMS isJ asking you to mount the volume back on :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)  / Check your operator.log for a message such as :o  N "%MOUNT-F-DSKEJE, Disk platters ejected, duck to avoid decapitation."  :-) :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:33:38 GMT 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)iO Subject: Re: Power Outage leaves master shadow disk unusable, how do i recover?p( Message-ID: <H2Bxs3.3997E@world.std.com>  , Brian Hechinger <wonko@4amlunch.net> writes:  G >> If you have time, I would even go as far as MOUNT/REBUILD $1$DKA600,sL >> (which would mount it as a regular disk and break shadow set information)2 >>  ANA/DISK/REPAIR DKA600  to make sure it is OK. >> DISMOUNT DKA600 >> -O >> I would also just mount DKA900 and dismount it, to ensure that its shadowingt >> info is also wiped out. >> f' >> then mount the shadow set as above. A  M >hmm, well i didn't do that, is there something i can do now?  it's done witha+ >the merge operation, and _seems_ to be ok.r  B You may wish to do $ ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR DSA2:.  FWIW, I always doI $ ANALYZE/DISK (without /REPAIR) first just in case things are bad enough " a /REPAIR might make things worse.  J Messing with/disabling the shadow info is usually not a good idea.  First,J if one of the two shadowed disks also has a bad spot (head crash from the I power failure) shadowing will detect this and get the data from the otherkC disk.  But not if the shadowing info is erased.  Corrupted file(s). G For example, what would have happened if DKA600 was bad but not so bad nC that it wouldn't mount.  If the shadowset is intact shadowing wouldeC retrieve the data from DKA900 and (try to) rewrite DKA600.  If you nJ erased the shadowing info and recreated the shadowset the info from DKA900= is lost and can't help you recover the files on the bad spot.e  I Secondly, if one of the disks was a copy target at the time of the power vF failure, and by erasing the shadow info you somehow wound up with thisG disk as your data source, now your whole disk is corrupted.  And if youUE recreated the shadow set, the shadowing software will now be merrily sH copying your corrupt disk over your last good source, the former shadow 
 source drive.t  I >> Both volume shadowing and  DCL dictionary. The trick is that the firstpO >> physical drive specified in the MOUNT /SHADOW command is the one that serves:M >> as source of data and the others serve as targets of copy/merge operations:O >> whenever there isn't enough information for VMS to decide which drive is the  >> more recent.t  J Actually shadowing will also know if all is fine, no copy/merge is needed.C Also on a merge, there is no "source" drive, both/all 3 drives are  L considered valid as sources.  A merge just verifies the disks are identical.  E >$ mount/sys dsa2: /shadow=($1$DKA500:,$1$DKA600:,$1$DKA900:) webdatad# >%MOUNT-I-OPRQST, medium is offlinetK >%MOUNT-I-OPRQST, Please mount volume WEBDATA in device _$1$DKA500: (BULMA)   ' >yeah, that looks pretty dead to me. ;)e  ? Try $ MOUNT/NOASSIST if you want a more specific error message.e  
 -Mike Moroneyt former shadowing devor   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:34:55 +0200d, From: "Rainer Giese" <waste.not@welcome.net>) Subject: Reboot after font daemon patch ?o6 Message-ID: <alpcia$1m4ab7$1@ID-138444.news.dfncis.de>  I We suddenly have problems with the DECW$FD-process for the VXT-Terminals.'L The don't get fonts sometimes, and there is an access violation in the error logfile.  L I found that there is a patch VMS73_DECW_XTERM-V0100, that seems to help. ItK only substitutes DECW$DWT_FONT_DAEMON.EXE, but it is written, that a reboots0 is necessary, what is not possible at this time.  @ Before crashing anything : I believe, that only a restart of the< DECW$FD-process would be necessary, or what's your opinion ?   Regards,
  Rainer Giesee   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:30:39 +0200i, From: "Rainer Giese" <waste.not@welcome.net>- Subject: Re: Reboot after font daemon patch ?i6 Message-ID: <alpjba$1rrifd$1@ID-138444.news.dfncis.de>   Additional question :f  % An image I got earlier from CSC has :"5                 image file identification: "V1.1-015"f@                 image file build identification: "X91Y-SSB-0000"7                 link date/time: 22-AUG-2001 11:53:27.84s The image in the patch kit has:n5                 image file identification: "V1.1-015"tB                 image file build identification: "X91Y-0060010001"7                 link date/time: 10-APR-2002 15:28:06.87'  4 Is it the same (mean: functional identical) or not ?   Rainer Giese   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 02 10:17:30 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.comnJ Subject: Re: Sick of the trolls, whiners, and non-customers in this forum?+ Message-ID: <alptss$6a7$1@bob.news.rcn.net>r  ' In article <3D7FF94E.F2F80194@fsi.net>,e5    "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:i >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  <snip>  B >We once were hard-core computer geeks, but now we're all "gooey".  > Right.  A great part of that goo gets applied to the rat balls? installed in the User Devices From Hell.  Users should not haver; to wrestle with the basic gear and code just to get some of2 their work done.   /BAH        ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.:   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:40:52 GMTs8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)G Subject: Re: still poor randomness of TCP/IP  sequence numbers in VMS ?o2 Message-ID: <oX%f9.12$cx6.303156@news.cpqcorp.net>  3 In article <gsQf9.58$c46.908380@news.cpqcorp.net>, n2 "Matt Muggeridge" <Matt.Muggeridge@hp.com> writes:  A >Support for RFC 1948, Defending Against Sequence Number Attacks,  >was added in TCP/IP V5.3.  E Compaq TCP/IP Servics for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.3 is shipping withAJ OpenVMS Alpha Version V7.3-1.  The POLYCENTER Software Installation (PCSI)M utility sees this as TCPIP V5.3-18.  (E.g. in PRODUCT SHOW PRODUCT commands.)g   -- wI       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USA H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:47:18 +0200D% From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@yahoo.de>- Subject: Re: Sybase and VMSa% Message-ID: <3d8062a6$1@news.post.ch>p  J The ending support of sybase for VMS is the reason for us to leave VMS. WeK cannot live with an unsupported DB and migration is easier than changing ton oracle.c   JakobP  E "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@nospammmmm.optusnet.com.au> schrieb imgB Newsbeitrag news:3d7f14dd$0$29908$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au... >     Hi > - > I hear that sybase and VMS isn't supported.s >v > anyone know if it works? >o > antony >o >o >m   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:26:04 +0200e@ From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk> Subject: Re: Sybase and VMSA+ Message-ID: <3D80A3FC.6050505@mail.tele.dk>4   Jakob Erber wrote:  L > The ending support of sybase for VMS is the reason for us to leave VMS. WeM > cannot live with an unsupported DB and migration is easier than changing toi	 > oracle.   ; I think that many has choosen to migrate from Sybase/VMS tos& Sybase/non-VMS instead of Oracle/VMS !   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 05:34:30 -0700) From: psmejkal@envinet.cz (Pavel Smejkal)   Subject: TCP/IP not running fine= Message-ID: <7f58b5dd.0209120434.69767702@posting.google.com>    Hi all, 
 I'am running -  5 Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.1 0 on a AlphaStation 250 4/266 running OpenVMS V7.3  9 and when I starting TCP/IP and FTP service, I get message6  8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  12-SEP-2002 12:01:38.36  %%%%%%%%%%%! Message from user INTERnet on DISs INTERnet Loaded,8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  12-SEP-2002 12:01:39.69  %%%%%%%%%%%! Message from user INTERnet on DISa INTERnet Started8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  12-SEP-2002 12:01:39.80  %%%%%%%%%%%! Message from user INTERnet on DISs, INTERnet ACP Created INTERnet interface: WE08 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  12-SEP-2002 12:01:44.26  %%%%%%%%%%%! Message from user INTERnet on DISe  INTERnet ACP Activate FTP Server8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  12-SEP-2002 12:01:44.26  %%%%%%%%%%%! Message from user INTERnet on DISh= INTERnet ACP NOLISTEN Process creation success: Service - FTP 8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  12-SEP-2002 12:01:44.77  %%%%%%%%%%%! Message from user INTERnet on DIStF INTERnet ACP Error during process startup, Nolisten Service Disabled -	 FTP Servey r 8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  12-SEP-2002 12:01:44.77  %%%%%%%%%%%! Message from user INTERnet on DISn" INTERnet ACP Deactivate FTP Server  2 --------------------------------------------------F All other TCP/IP services running fine. I tryed set flag LISTEN to FTPD service and service then start, but when I tryed connect through FTP" service to server I get no answer.  E When I'am install DEC-AXPVMS-TCPIP_ECO-V0501-154-4.PCSI patch, then I-B get on client message "Connect timeout" and on the server messages2 --------------------------------------------------8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  12-SEP-2002 13:13:11.10  %%%%%%%%%%%! Message from user INTERnet on DISrC INTERnet ACP FTP Accept Request from Host: 192.168.1.123 Port: 2079J8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  12-SEP-2002 13:26:20.96  %%%%%%%%%%%! Message from user INTERnet on DIS 7 INTERnet ACP detected TCPIP$FTP exiting before 'socket' 8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  12-SEP-2002 13:26:20.96  %%%%%%%%%%%! Message from user INTERnet on DISiF INTERnet ACP AUXS error during process exit  Status = %SYSTEM-F-NOPRIV  $ Can you help me solve this problem ?        Thank you    
 Pavel SmejkalS
 ENVINET,a.s. Y Brafova 531E 674 01 Trebic, Czech Republice   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:30:15 +0200t$ From: "Peter Flunger" <p-i-b@gmx.at>$ Subject: Re: TCP/IP not running fine0 Message-ID: <alq4t8$8ii$1@newsreader1.netway.at>  + "Pavel Smejkal" <psmejkal@envinet.cz> wrote 8 > <.. in fact a lot of stuff, that i am omitting here..>H > INTERnet ACP AUXS error during process exit  Status = %SYSTEM-F-NOPRIV >nF Please be aware that the FTP demon runs in a very restricted an poorlyD privileged account on VMS (ucx$ftp,  which in fact is a good thing )J Check all files executed during login ( sylogin, files called by sylogin )D for actions that might not be possible for the ucx$ftp account. This could be a $set process/priv=..lL As you see the error returned when your ftp server tries to logon you do not evenL have to check the accounting file, which would have been my first suggestion in such a case.J Make sure you have got a $set noon in your sylogin to avoid other types ofA problems your detached processes might encounter when receiving ae fatal error during login.s   Peteri   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:03:45 GMTl1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> " Subject: Re: The Gauntlet is Cast!- Message-ID: <BV2g9.296171$aA.51291@sccrnsc02>0  # "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"o> <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message) news:alnq70$bg$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...  > Wow, >e5 > Your explanation for Sun's stock price falling fromu4 > 20 to 3.5 dollars is that we are being squeezed at > the low end margin wise !i  L That was not what was said at the midquarter fnancial analyst concall, those- interested in same can check out the details.e  L I do believe that Sun has some major issues to work. But I woudn't go so farI as to say they are toast. Do not underestimate Sun. I sure have: 13 yearsBI ago at IDC I claimed Sun would never be a $10B company. Wrong answer! AndbG when Sun announced the transition from workstations to servers, I said,U "yeah, right."  K Sun went from Number 17 to Number 3 in the server market in a bit less than L three years. Whether or not you like Sun, that is IMHO an exemplar of superb
 execution.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:10:30 +0530c5 From: "Sandeep Yelwatkar" <Sandeep_Yelwatkar@bmc.com>h Subject: Volume Name/ Message-ID: <uo0gpvienqi983@corp.supernews.com>T   Hi All,   L The command $ SHOW DEVICE display the list of devices. On my cluster some of? the disk has volume name. I want to know what is the use of it.cH Also for some disk it shows the device status as "Online", "mounted" andD "offline". Can someone tell me what is difference between the three.   Thanks in advancee Sandeepe   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 07:55:05 GMT 3 From: Carl Nelson <carl.nelson@mcmail.maricopa.edu>c Subject: Re: Volume Name3 Message-ID: <3D80489D.7279BFEB@mcmail.maricopa.edu>w   Sandeep Yelwatkar wrote:  	 > Hi All,m >dN > The command $ SHOW DEVICE display the list of devices. On my cluster some ofA > the disk has volume name. I want to know what is the use of it.sJ > Also for some disk it shows the device status as "Online", "mounted" andF > "offline". Can someone tell me what is difference between the three. >f > Thanks in advance 	 > Sandeepi  I Well, the volume name has a couple of uses. Mostly, though, they are mostwL useful with using dismountable disks. First off it is to help humans to keepO track of disks, particularly removable volumes. Another is that the system uses8I volume names to form a logical name of DISK$<volume_name> so that you canlL connect applications to specific disk packs. This allows you to mount a diskL pack on different physical drives without having to murph with creating yourL own logicals. The DISK$<volume_name> to DUAxx (or whatever) is done at mountK time. It also keeps you from accidentally mounting the wrong volume, as theiK disk pack has the volume name, and you have to specify the volume name on a-! regular (non-foreign) disk mount.3  H   As far as the difference between "offline", "online" and "mounted". ..  K   Offline means that the device is turned off, or does not have a disk packkD installed. (The latter depends on type of disk system and drivers, I understand.)  L   Online means that the device is available to the system, but the device is$ not logically mounted on the system.  G   Mounted means that the device is, well, mounted. That is that VMS hashM established a connection to the device, and made the file system available totJ the system (or to a private process if not mounted /system). The directoryH system and files are made available to authorized users. In other words, accessible.    --Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:13:29 +0200yE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>r Subject: Re: Volume Name+ Message-ID: <3D805AB9.6F62CC55@mediasec.de>d  K > Well, the volume name has a couple of uses. Mostly, though, they are moste( > useful with using dismountable disks.   E All volumes that are mounted use the label to generate the locks thatoH synchronize filesystem operations. Thus, all volumes mounted shared haveE a single name space for volume labels. This can sometimes lead to theaG dreaded "another volume of the same label already mounted" message fromv MOUNT.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:16:32 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Volume Name) Message-ID: <3D805B70.488D1333@127.0.0.1>e   Sandeep Yelwatkar wrote: > 	 > Hi All,l > N > The command $ SHOW DEVICE display the list of devices. On my cluster some ofA > the disk has volume name. I want to know what is the use of it. J > Also for some disk it shows the device status as "Online", "mounted" andF > "offline". Can someone tell me what is difference between the three.  " For the answer to the second part,  ? Online = available, can be mounted where appropriate (commands,t privileges) E Offline = Not available, cannot be mounted and historically implies ay@ disk pack cartridge is not installed in a disk driver (removableF devices) or is 'spun-up', or the online select is not selected. (Could be other reasons)bE Mounted = on this system the device can be read from, and potentiallysC written to, it is not sufficient to VMS that a device can merely be @ present in a configuration that it can be used by the system and= applications. I know that is long winded, but is an important A differentiator between VMS and other so-called operating systems.a  G For the first part, your question is ambiguous. Extract the devices yougA are querying, many devices are not disk devices, some devices are C templates for software, some devices are purely software. If you'ree= asking about Volume Label, that has a fairly straight-forwardt; explanation. Device name can be a 'depends' sort of answer.e  F The VMS users manual is pretty good at explaining common devices alongE with the operating system's view of the electromechanical world. SeekaG the documentation off the www.openvms.compaq.com website... The FAQ mayeB also be helpful, and more questions can be answered here with more information.   -- i? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot comn   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:04:13 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i Subject: Re: Volume Name, Message-ID: <3D80D71C.BB5584E2@videotron.ca>   Nic Clews wrote:G > Offline = Not available, cannot be mounted and historically implies agB > disk pack cartridge is not installed in a disk driver (removableA > devices) or is 'spun-up', or the online select is not selected.d    M In today's context, would it be correct to state that the disk was visible tolN VMS when VMS was booted, and thus whatever structures were created for it, butN that since then, VMS has lost contact with the drive ? The device name remains' but the unit is marked as unreachable ?-  L In an MSCP served cluster, if Node B goes down,  does Node A still show NodeL B's disk drives after the mount verification ? If so, would they be shown asO "Offline" ?  I know that SHOW DEV/FULL will sometimes say "marked unavailable".e   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:51:03 +0000 (UTC)c+ From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb):J Subject: Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on+ Message-ID: <alpv37$51v$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>u  n In article <3D7F94DF.2000307@mail.tele.dk>, Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk> writes: >David Webb wrote: >,q >> In article <3D7F70BB.7010603@mail.tele.dk>, Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk> writes: # >>>Process is selling PMDF for VMS.e >>>iP >> The SUNone iPlanet Messaging server is a combination of SIMS 4.0 and Netscape# >> messaging server 4.x facilities.u >>  = >> http://docs.sun.com/source/816-6017-10/changes.htm#13580  e >>  B >> Shows that iPlanet Messaging server uses the SIMS (ie PMDF) MTA >  >OK. > / >I got my impression from our local SUN FUDist:g >v >#SIMS was Sun's IMAP server.i >i+ >#When the Sun AOL alliance was created then, >#Netscape products such as apps server, web- >#mail etc all came under the umbrella of thet >#alliance.e >w+ >#Solaris Internet Mail Server was replacedo+ >#by Netscape's IMAP server as the standardi >#IMAP server that we supplied.s >d, >#All the Netscape server products were then- >#re-branded as iPlanet. So the Netscape IMAPt. >#server became the iPlanet server, there were, >#product updates but this was a re-branding* >#excercise and not a product replacement. > 5 >#At the time of the AOL Sun deal decisions were madei5 >#about which products to retain and which to discardf >#where there was overlap. >u6 >#The Netscape server won out though some bits of SIMS1 >#were incorporated into it. iPlanet is as I saido >#simply a re-branding.n > 6 >Whicg indicated to me that it was very little of SIMS >that was carried over.o >a9 >But maybe I should have choosen a more reliable source !i >   H Yes I'm totally mystified why Andrew constantly tries to distant the SunA mail products from their PMDF MTA heritage. Sun bought Innosoft. s! The PMDF MTA is a great product.  K Sun has a very good set of mail and directory products in the SunOne suite.n  N Why the need to try and pretend that Sun products no longer use the PMDF MTA ?M (Over time the PMDF MTA as developed by Process and Sunone's MTA will diverge K but unless either Sun or Process decide to completely redesign it they willhM probably continue to share the vast majority of core code for the foreseeablee future).  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:46:13 -0000 / From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>KJ Subject: Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on/ Message-ID: <uo0vk5j2gme282@corp.supernews.com>   G : What features/capabilities would you like to see available on OpenVMSi  B I'd like to see VMS MAIL be able to handle attachments, especially binary attachments.r   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 08:13:37 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)rJ Subject: Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on3 Message-ID: <1R+xDzywKr2c@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  w In article <01KMDO2ZV4LY9QVJI2@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:a > J > Bug or feature?  I often want to purge ONE wastebasket but not all.  Or  > am I missing something?r  D    It should be easy to empty them all, or at least to empty the oneD    in the file in which any other folder is selected, without havingF    to select the wastebasket itself before using the empty wastebasket
    menu item.e   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Sep 2002 08:14:41 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)oJ Subject: Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on3 Message-ID: <Bns7QVonJEAC@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  n In article <3D7F6FC4.7050804@mail.tele.dk>, Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk> writes: > David Webb wrote:  > ^ >> In article <3D7E4FAA.FBE3F32@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >>>Arne Vajhj wrote:j >>>>It is also:g >>>>   - smart GUI >>>>   - faster mail storage >>>>2 >>>What is inherently bad about the VMS mail GUI ? >  >  > That it is not a GUI.3 > H >> I think the X-windows GUI is ok. It's the lack of other functionality >> that is the problem.  >  > @ > I may be a little bit old-fashioned, but I distinguish between( > VMS Mail (VT) and DECWindows Mail (X). > 9 > I have never used DECWindows Mail, so I can not commentr > on its user-friendliness.l >   ?    DECWindows Mail is the GUI for VMS mail.  What could be moree    straightforward?-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:11:42 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>'J Subject: Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on, Message-ID: <3D80D8DD.C2E6D99B@videotron.ca>   David Webb wrote:-J > Yes I'm totally mystified why Andrew constantly tries to distant the SunB > mail products from their PMDF MTA heritage. Sun bought Innosoft." > The PMDF MTA is a great product.  L The way I understand it, Sun essentially dropped PMDF, keeping only bits andI pieces which it integrated into the Netscape product when Sun became goodtH buddies with AOL/Netscape. It would therefore be logical to expect a Sun' employee to distance himself from PMDF.a  L Perhaps the purchase of PMDF was just a .COM thing when SUN felt its pocketsL were too full of cash. Perhaps the goal of buying innosoft was the buying ofG its employees instead of the product, as well as destabilising the only-L remaining email infrastructure for VMS (remember all the questions about theH futire of PMDF that came up when Sun annouced it was buying innosoft ?).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:11:21 +0200y@ From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk>T Subject: Re: What features/capabilities would you like to see available on  OpenVMS?) Message-ID: <3D80BCA9.20009@mail.tele.dk>e   Don Sykes wrote:  G > A small, but annoying thing to me is the requirement of "sys$input" &pM > "sys$output" in the pipe command. One of the few nice things about the UnixpM > shells is brevity. "<" means input from; ">" means output to; and "|" meanshQ > both. If VMS is going to support a pipe command, then I would like to use it incC > a Unix fashion, instead of spelling out the input & output - e.g.h > Currently, I have to say: ' > 	$ pipe dir | search sys$input ".log"i > I'd like to be able to say:  > 	$ pipe dir | search ".log".R > and have the pipe command fill in "sys$input", or at least, specify sys$input as > < , e.g.:t > 	$ pipe dir | search < ".log"e   Is this practical possible ?  - To do this PIPE should know the syntax of ally commands - or ??   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 07:47:00 +0100m( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Whither my VAX...) Message-ID: <3D803864.B20208AF@127.0.0.1>t   "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > L > I say get rid of the Monitor for the VAXstation and run it headless.  EvenH > my main VMS box (a PWS 433au) is run headless.  If I want DECwindows IN > connect from either my Mac or my WinXP system.  Personally I prefer my VT420F > hooked up to a DECserver, or a telnet session.  I'd say keep the VAXK > clustered in so that you can play with mixed architecture clustering, and/L > run any legacy VAX apps that can't be Vested (just becuase you can't think5 > of any right now doesn't mean you won't find some).3  G On a slight variation on this, if you have a multisynch monitor, either/E use a switchbox, or some multi's have both BNC as well as 15 pin hightH density connections, and use the monitor menu to swap. Also using one ofA your remaining AXP's as an X display off a headless VAX should bee acceptable.c   --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesh nclews at csc dot coma   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:38:59 GMTP4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: Whither my VAX...0 Message-ID: <3D80C176.E1E7B97D@blueyonder.co.uk>   "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > ) > Rich Jordan <jordan@ccs4vms.com> wrote:rC > > I've read a lot of posts from various home users who had to letcE > > individual systems go for various reasons.  Anyone had to make anaH > > actual platform elimination decision?  Or is there really a good andD > > useful reason worthy of the considerable effort it would take toC > > retain the VAXstation once remodeling the office gets underway?nD > > Sentiment and antique DECwindows games don't count (darn it...). > L > I say get rid of the Monitor for the VAXstation and run it headless.  EvenH > my main VMS box (a PWS 433au) is run headless.  If I want DECwindows IN > connect from either my Mac or my WinXP system.  Personally I prefer my VT420F > hooked up to a DECserver, or a telnet session.  I'd say keep the VAXK > clustered in so that you can play with mixed architecture clustering, andcL > run any legacy VAX apps that can't be Vested (just becuase you can't think5 > of any right now doesn't mean you won't find some).  >  >                         Zane     I agree, run it headless.l  F Just keep a keyboard plugged in so VMS doesn't think its a VAXServer.   F You will of course have to go though a licence transfer process to use the box legitimately at work.a   Regards, -- s tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk *  H * PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:52:54 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a Subject: Re: Whither my VAX..., Message-ID: <3D80D476.15FCDDB6@videotron.ca>  K Depending on what you do with your DEC gear at home, having a spare vax can, have advantages.  G Leaving it booted into the cluster allows you to "play" with clustering E features that may not be so obvious in a 2 node cluster (for instancerK developping server software which runs on more than 2 nodes and coordinates % who is master and who is helper etc).o  I Another advantage is a source of spare parts, or a cold backup should theiL other vax die. I have a spare microvax II in a corner (just the ba23 boxes),L and I have made use of one of the 2 power supplies to replace a failed on onM my all mighty teenage microvax II. Costs much less than buying the spare partn from Digital/Compaq/Whatever.i   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.504 ************************