1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 20 Sep 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 519       Contents:. Re: Another Announcment - NEW OpenVMS Roadshow. Re: Another Announcment - NEW OpenVMS Roadshow. Re: Another Announcment - NEW OpenVMS Roadshow. Re: Another Announcment - NEW OpenVMS Roadshow8 Re: Another Announcment - SUN will sell PCs ?? <-- Linux! Backup Restore and Boot problem ? % Re: Backup Restore and Boot problem ? % Re: Backup Restore and Boot problem ? % Re: Backup Restore and Boot problem ?  Re: BASIC (bug?) Re: BASIC (bug?) Re: BASIC (bug?) Re: BASIC (bug?) Re: BASIC (bug?); bugcheck on boot after 7.3 ACRTL eco applied - suggestions? ? Re: bugcheck on boot after 7.3 ACRTL eco applied - suggestions? ? Re: bugcheck on boot after 7.3 ACRTL eco applied - suggestions? 6 Re: Disaster Recovery (as this thread now seems to be), Re: Disaster-Tolerant clusters (was Re: ORD), Re: Disaster-Tolerant clusters (was Re: ORD), RE: Disaster-Tolerant clusters (was Re: ORD), Re: Disaster-Tolerant clusters (was Re: ORD)6 Does anyone have an electronic picture of the VAX cat?: Re: Does anyone have an electronic picture of the VAX cat? Fortran and UnixP Re: From Mark Gorham - Clarification - OpenVMS Symposium AKA OpenVMS  Advanced TP Re: From Mark Gorham - Clarification - OpenVMS Symposium AKA OpenVMS Advanced TeP Re: From Mark Gorham - Clarification - OpenVMS Symposium AKA OpenVMS Advanced TeP Re: From Mark Gorham - Clarification - OpenVMS Symposium AKA OpenVMS Advanced Te0 Re: Hardware Mirroring 'vs' Software Mirroring ?0 Re: Hardware Mirroring 'vs' Software Mirroring ?0 Re: Hardware Mirroring 'vs' Software Mirroring ? Re: how do you start X Re: how do you start X Re: how do you start X Re: how do you start X Re: how do you start X Re: how do you start X Re: how do you start X Re: HP website integration> Re: HTML to browse the Freeware CDs - grab a copy if you wish. Re: LAT connection Re: MAIL suggestion  Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.) Re: OpenVms on Alpha with a PoweWare UPS.  Re: OpenVMS SIG  Re: OpenVMS SIG  Re: OpenVMS SIG * Oracle Rdb Release  7.0.6.5 (aka V7.0-65).& Re: QUEUE MANAGER dying during backups' Re: SIMH 2.9-11: bug in tape simulation ' Re: SIMH 2.9-11: bug in tape simulation ' Re: SIMH 2.9-11: bug in tape simulation ' Re: SIMH 2.9-11: bug in tape simulation ' Re: SIMH 2.9-11: bug in tape simulation ' Re: SIMH 2.9-11: bug in tape simulation  Re: So help me understand herE.  RE: So help me understand herE. / Storing username/password for external services ( Re: TCPIP 5.3: QIO IO$_ACPCONTROL buglet Upgrade to VMS 7.3-1& Re: validate email address with LDAP ?& Re: validate email address with LDAP ?# What is happening to the industry ? ' Re: What is happening to the industry ? ' Re: What is happening to the industry ?  RE: Wildcard for Delete /entry Re: Wildcard for Delete /entry Re: Wildcard for Delete /entry Re: X.25 programming question   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:03:21 GMT ' From: "Mark E. Levy" <mark@openvms.com> 7 Subject: Re: Another Announcment - NEW OpenVMS Roadshow . Message-ID: <JQri9.468576$me6.56464@sccrnsc01>   What about Chicago?     : "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message! news:3D897C00.8E33BDC2@Free.fr... 	 > Europe?  >  > D. >  > Sue Skonetski wrote: > >  > ../.. + > >  Columbia, SC - Thursday, September 26  > > ' > >  Memphis, TN - Thursday, October 3  > > ) > >  McAllen, TX - Wednesday, October 16  > > ' > >  Phoenix, AZ - Tuesday, October 22  > > - > >  Los Angeles, CA - Wednesday, October 30  > > / > >  New York City, NY - Thursday, November 21    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:20:14 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> 7 Subject: Re: Another Announcment - NEW OpenVMS Roadshow * Message-ID: <iJui9.3589$gA4.168@sccrnsc02>  2 "Mark E. Levy" <mark@openvms.com> wrote in message( news:JQri9.468576$me6.56464@sccrnsc01... > What about Chicago?   E Good question, but the CARTS LUG provides pretty good coverage there.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:24:30 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> 7 Subject: Re: Another Announcment - NEW OpenVMS Roadshow . Message-ID: <iNui9.519648$UU1.86447@sccrnsc03>  : "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message! news:3D897C00.8E33BDC2@Free.fr... 	 > Europe?  >   L Speaking only for myself, I am not aware of any European roadshows. The lastI one I attended (other than the Spring 2001 CPQ circuit in London, Zurich, G Belguim) was the VX Company's outstanding VMS: THE FACTS last November. H Over-capacity crowd, but expensive for VX to do. No plans to do one thisJ year, but drop 'em a line at http://www.vxcompany.com// If they get enough+ requests, perhaps they'll plan another one.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 02:15:49 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 7 Subject: Re: Another Announcment - NEW OpenVMS Roadshow ' Message-ID: <3D8A8A72.A367DA04@fsi.net>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > 4 > "Mark E. Levy" <mark@openvms.com> wrote in message* > news:JQri9.468576$me6.56464@sccrnsc01... > > What about Chicago?  > G > Good question, but the CARTS LUG provides pretty good coverage there.   D I've never seen Randy Barth bring in gear like they did earlier this) year...but I'm hardly a regular attendee.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:07:05 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> A Subject: Re: Another Announcment - SUN will sell PCs ?? <-- Linux . Message-ID: <Zwui9.469586$me6.56622@sccrnsc01>  ; "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message : news:20020919112203.80499.qmail@web20208.mail.yahoo.com...
 > Click at > + > http://news.com.com/2100-1001-958487.html  >   L Based on the following, do you blame Sun for doing this. Sun may be a lot ofJ things (and McNealy happens to absolutely loathe Yours Truly) but they are not stupid!     H SAN FRANCISCO--Sun Microsystems will get into the PC business next year,E selling Linux-based desktops that will cost less than half to own and K operate than comparable systems running Windows, Sun CEO Scott McNealy said 
 Wednesday.   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2002 14:51:31 -0700 From: jcho888@yahoo.com (James) * Subject: Backup Restore and Boot problem ?= Message-ID: <43c45dcb.0209191351.3ceaed98@posting.google.com>   C Hi,  All we recently got an AS4000 (with 7.2 alpha on it) and would E like move system disk with VMS 6.2 from an old DEC 3000 to one of the  hard drives   " This is the backup command used-  - backup/image/ignore=interlock/verify $1$dka0: ! $2$dra2:[000000]vms60.bck/saveset     and this is the restore command > Back/image/verify   $2$dra2:[000000]vms60.bck  $2$dra1/saveset  C It looks like it restored ok but when I try to reboot the system it E causes what looks like a memory dump and the system reboots. What are E the correct procedures to transfer the OS and data file from one disk 2 to another. Does the different in hardware matter?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:15:13 -0700 ( From: Alan Frisbie <Abuse@NelsonUSA.com>. Subject: Re: Backup Restore and Boot problem ?- Message-ID: <3D8A4C71.9B6AE2DD@NelsonUSA.com>    James wrote: > E > Hi,  All we recently got an AS4000 (with 7.2 alpha on it) and would G > like move system disk with VMS 6.2 from an old DEC 3000 to one of the 
 > hard drives  > " > This is the backup command used-/ > backup/image/ignore=interlock/verify $1$dka0: # > $2$dra2:[000000]vms60.bck/saveset  > ! > and this is the restore command @ > Back/image/verify   $2$dra2:[000000]vms60.bck  $2$dra1/saveset > E > It looks like it restored ok but when I try to reboot the system it G > causes what looks like a memory dump and the system reboots. What are G > the correct procedures to transfer the OS and data file from one disk 4 > to another. Does the different in hardware matter?  @ Without doing any research (my v6.2 docs are all in storage), myA initial guess is that v6.2 does not support the AlphaServer 4000. ? It encounters a CPU it knows nothing about, so it does the only  rational thing: crash.  D Version 6.2 dates from (roughly) 1996.   When did the 4000 come out?   Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:21:02 -0400   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>. Subject: Re: Backup Restore and Boot problem ?5 Message-ID: <1020919191910.1922A-100000@Ives.egh.com>    On 19 Sep 2002, James wrote:  E > Hi,  All we recently got an AS4000 (with 7.2 alpha on it) and would G > like move system disk with VMS 6.2 from an old DEC 3000 to one of the 
 > hard drives  > $ > This is the backup command used-  / > backup/image/ignore=interlock/verify $1$dka0: # > $2$dra2:[000000]vms60.bck/saveset  > " > and this is the restore command @ > Back/image/verify   $2$dra2:[000000]vms60.bck  $2$dra1/saveset > E > It looks like it restored ok but when I try to reboot the system it G > causes what looks like a memory dump and the system reboots. What are G > the correct procedures to transfer the OS and data file from one disk 4 > to another. Does the different in hardware matter?  E /saveset is a positional qualifier.  On the restore command, you need A to put it on the input spec (which is the saveset) and not on the  output spec.  ? Back/image/verify   $2$dra2:[000000]vms60.bck/saveset  $2$dra1:    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 02:28:01 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> . Subject: Re: Backup Restore and Boot problem ?' Message-ID: <3D8A8D4E.FBAA3FF9@fsi.net>    James wrote: > E > Hi,  All we recently got an AS4000 (with 7.2 alpha on it) and would G > like move system disk with VMS 6.2 from an old DEC 3000 to one of the 
 > hard drives  > " > This is the backup command used-/ > backup/image/ignore=interlock/verify $1$dka0: # > $2$dra2:[000000]vms60.bck/saveset  > ! > and this is the restore command @ > Back/image/verify   $2$dra2:[000000]vms60.bck  $2$dra1/saveset > E > It looks like it restored ok but when I try to reboot the system it G > causes what looks like a memory dump and the system reboots. What are G > the correct procedures to transfer the OS and data file from one disk 4 > to another. Does the different in hardware matter?  H Well, I've got VMS V6.2-1H3 on an AS4000 at work. So, I know that works.; The key item there is the -1H3 hardware release, I believe.   H Not sure whether that version supports the DRA devices, though. I'd tend to to think it should, but...    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:13:48 -0400   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: BASIC (bug?) 5 Message-ID: <1020919140836.1922B-100000@Ives.egh.com>    On 19 Sep 2002, Joe wrote:  _ > John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in message news:<1020918183351.1922A-100000@Ives.egh.com>... ( > > On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, JF Mezei wrote: > >  > > > Joe wrote:M > > > > "word" and compiling BASIC/WORD will generate no complaints. When the M > > > > compiler parses the 2nd declaration of "false" it enters a state that ? > > > > it's already seen but just doesn't cause any "conflict"  > > > P > > > Nevertheless, it should still warn about multiple declarations of the same* > > > variable even if they are identical. > >  > > No, it shouldn't!  > > M > > If you are using %include files to define constants, function prototypes, G > > commons, etc., then you want to nest them.  Multiple %include files F > > may very well include a common set of lower-level files that, e.g.J > > define fundamental record types used by your application.  Since theseK > > lower level files may be included more than once in a given module, you H > > don't want their identical declarations to cause compilation errors. > > K > > For example, you prototype function AAAA in AAAA_PROTO.INC and function I > > BBBB in BBBB_PROTO.INC.  Both AAAA and BBBB have a record CCCC as one H > > of their arguments, so both *_PROTO.INC files include CCCC_TYPE.INC,K > > which defines the record.  A CCCC record includes an integer field that G > > can contain one of a small number of constant values, so you define P > > constants for those values in CCCC_TYPE.INC (or maybe in CCCC_CONSTANTS.INC,J > > which is %include'd from CCCC_TYPE.INC.)  Any program which calls bothM > > AAAA and BBBB will end up including the constant definitions twice, which 3 > > would cause major problems under your proposal.  > > M > > P.S.  The multiple definitions in the original example were of CONSTANTS,  > > not VARIABLES. >  > D > I believe that the correct way to prevent multiple "inclusions" in3 > BASIC is via compiler directives. Specifically...  >  > %if %declared (%foo) = -1  > %then  >  >    ... > 
 > %end %if  B Actually, we do this, but it is (I thought) mainly for performance@ reasons.  Compiling a couple of million lines of code is severalA hours faster on a slow machine when you prune the tree.  A second = reason is there is a limit to %include nesting, which we have @ encountered.  Pruning makes it easier to limit the length of the longest branches.   F > Once a function is prototyped you can't you can't prototype the same > thing over again.  > G > I suppose it is "possible" to argue that there was no bug illustrated B > by the original code snippet by waving your hands and making andG > references to finite state machines and such. I will still think that F > the compiler should "say something" in response to the original code
 > snippet. > B > Someone wants to argue that nothing has been redefined and henceG > there's no error. Fine. Why does the C compiler have something to say : > about about which the BASIC compiler had nothing to say? >    Because "C"<>"BASIC"?    > $ cc/vers - > Compaq C V6.2-003 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-1H2 
 > $ ty test.c  > void main(void) {  >  >    const int i = 0;  >    const int i = 0;  >  > }  > $ cc test  >  >    const int i = 0;  > .............^D > %CC-E-NOLINKAGE, In this declaration, "i" has no linkage and has aC > prior declaration in this scope at line number 3 in file __DKB50. 1 > at line number 4 in file __DKB500:[FOO]TEST.C;1  >  > A > O.K. I suppose the standard specifically states "thou shall not E > reassign a constant." I would also _hazard_ a guess that there's no D > such thing as an ASNI BASIC standard. All of which puts us back to
 > square one.   B There is an ANSI BASIC, but I have never heard of anyone using it.< AFAIK, it is an extremely limited subset of Dartmouth BASIC.   --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:40:44 -0400 & From: "Ed Vogel" <ed.vogel@compaq.com> Subject: Re: BASIC (bug?) , Message-ID: <3d8a1a2e_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  / "Joe" <cstranslations@msn.com> wrote in message 7 news:d56d1c2d.0209190652.778b5377@posting.google.com... B | Someone wants to argue that nothing has been redefined and henceG | there's no error. Fine. Why does the C compiler have something to say : | about about which the BASIC compiler had nothing to say? |  | $ cc/vers - | Compaq C V6.2-003 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-1H2 
 | $ ty test.c  | void main(void) {  |  |    const int i = 0;  |    const int i = 0;  |  | }   J     As Karl mentioned in a previous reply, this is not the corresponding C program.L     Saying declare long constant false = 0 would correspond to #define false 0.  3     Note that the C compiler will not complain for:        #define false 0      #define false 0         but would emit a warning for       #define false 0      #define false 1          Ed Vogel - HP D     Currently working on the Compaq C compiler, but spent much of my&     life working on the BASIC product.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:18:05 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: BASIC (bug?) , Message-ID: <3D8A30F2.73394C49@videotron.ca>   Malcolm Dunnett wrote:L >     The compiler does warn of duplicate definitions of variables, modules,M > etc. It also warns if a constant is declared with two different values. The K > only case it's silent on ( and the one that started this thread ) is when K > a constant is declared to be exactly the same value in two or more places  > in the source code.    In C, a  #define chocolate "Valronha"   is extremely different from  char *chocolate "Valronha" ;  L The #defined item is pre-preprocessed prior to compilation. The value of theM item replaces the name of the item, no matter what its contents are. a "0" is " treated the same as "hello world".  ' The following shows the big difference:   + printf("Chocolate brand: %s\n", chocolate); + printf("Chocolate brand: %s\n", chocolate); + printf("Chocolate brand: %s\n", chocolate);   # In the #define case, it generates : 5 printf("Chocolate brand: %s\n", "Valronha"); 3 times. K This means that a new, nameless constant containing "Valronha" is generated ? for each of the 3 printf statements. Each is stored separately.   K But when you define char *chocolate = "Valronha" ; the value is stored only G once, and all 3 printf statements point to the same location in memory.   B So the question then becomes what happens to the BASIC equivalent.  L if you define a constant , is this a named variable with its own storage, orC is it just a character substitution which occurs in the code during  pre-compilation ?   L In a character substitution scenario, then the type of constant you declaredI becomes moot since the declaration itself generate no storage or variable  name.   M But if it generates a variable name, a variable type and its own storage with B a value in it, then it should complain about multiple allocations.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:33:49 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: BASIC (bug?) , Message-ID: <3D8A34A1.4C356633@videotron.ca>  N Now that one of the devloppers has said that a constant in C is the equivalent to #define in C,  I then it really means that a constant in BASIC would have no real type and Y would be treated as a string that replaces the name of the constant prior to compilation.   N This means that each use of that constant generates its own private allocationL of storage, and I would guess that the BASIC compiler would look atthe valueJ and context of its use and decide what is the best type of storage for it.  M What is strange however is that the basic language would "type" a constant if K it is just treated as a string value that replaces the name of the constant % inside the code prior to compilation.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:58:47 -0400 & From: "Ed Vogel" <ed.vogel@compaq.com> Subject: Re: BASIC (bug?) . Message-ID: <3d8a3a88$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D8A34A1.4C356633@videotron.ca...E | Now that one of the devloppers has said that a constant in C is the 
 equivalent | to #define in C,  G     Sorry if I implied that they are equivalent.  I did not mean to say  that.   What I should      have said, is that IMO'         declare long constant false = 0      is *closer to*          #define false 0     than it is to "          const long int false = 0;        Ed    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2002 15:03:32 -0700" From: ccc_crg@yahoo.com (Chris G.)D Subject: bugcheck on boot after 7.3 ACRTL eco applied - suggestions?= Message-ID: <5437ff2f.0209191403.26257c39@posting.google.com>   F I have a hobbyist VMS 7.3 on Alpha 1000A.  I have applied two ECO kits7 this morning, rebooting after each. First I applied the D axpvms_73_update & rebooted, then I applied the axpvms73_acrtl kit & rebooted again.   F At the beginning of the 2nd reboot a BUGCHECK 000036C PROGONE (Process. Gone) in SYSINIT occurred and the boot failed.  F I think it is fair to say that the ACRTL patch is causing the problem.  E Being a hobbyist system I had ignored all the big bold warnings about D doing a full image backup of the system disk before applying the ECO2 kits. (Of course, now I wish I had done a backup!)   As I see it my options are:   ? 1) Initialise the system disk and do a fresh install of VMS 7.3 @ -- This would be quite time consuming and I'd have to rebuild my% environment so I'd rather not do this   7 2) Boot from the install CD and go to the DCL prompt.   @ -- Mount the system disk (DKA0) and look for the files that wereC replaced in the ECO patch. I'm hoping that either the files will be ? there with a version # -1 or will have been renamed to *.old or 
 something.  7 I believe that the files replaced by the ACRTL eco are:    DECC$SHR.EXE
   CRTL.OBJ   CRTLMSGDEF.OBJ  D 3) I'm wondering if a 3rd option would be to run the VMS 7.3 installB with the PRESERVE option. (Its been well over 6 years since I last= upgraded a VMS box so I've no idea if this would be sensible)   = 4) Perhaps another option would be to do a fresh install to a = different system directory on DKA0 (or even onto another disk C entirely) and then copy the ACRTL files back to the original system D directory. I'm not sure if this is possible or how to do it, so I'llA have to go to the compaq documentation website and see if this is  documented.   F Any suggestions or comments (including constructive criticism) will be
 very welcome!    Regards,
 Chris Guthrey  Auckland, New Zealand. --2 chris(at)remove.this.no-spam.prefix.guthrey.gen.nz or ccc_crg@yahoo.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:14:15 GMT + From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> H Subject: Re: bugcheck on boot after 7.3 ACRTL eco applied - suggestions?+ Message-ID: <3D8A5CD6.2C8EA7C5@ins-msi.com>    "Chris G." wrote:  > H > I have a hobbyist VMS 7.3 on Alpha 1000A.  I have applied two ECO kits9 > this morning, rebooting after each. First I applied the F > axpvms_73_update & rebooted, then I applied the axpvms73_acrtl kit & > rebooted again.  > H > At the beginning of the 2nd reboot a BUGCHECK 000036C PROGONE (Process0 > Gone) in SYSINIT occurred and the boot failed. > H > I think it is fair to say that the ACRTL patch is causing the problem. > G > Being a hobbyist system I had ignored all the big bold warnings about F > doing a full image backup of the system disk before applying the ECO4 > kits. (Of course, now I wish I had done a backup!) >  > As I see it my options are:  > A > 1) Initialise the system disk and do a fresh install of VMS 7.3 B > -- This would be quite time consuming and I'd have to rebuild my' > environment so I'd rather not do this  > 7 > 2) Boot from the install CD and go to the DCL prompt. B > -- Mount the system disk (DKA0) and look for the files that wereE > replaced in the ECO patch. I'm hoping that either the files will be A > there with a version # -1 or will have been renamed to *.old or  > something. > 9 > I believe that the files replaced by the ACRTL eco are:  >   DECC$SHR.EXE >   CRTL.OBJ >   CRTLMSGDEF.OBJ > F > 3) I'm wondering if a 3rd option would be to run the VMS 7.3 installD > with the PRESERVE option. (Its been well over 6 years since I last? > upgraded a VMS box so I've no idea if this would be sensible)  > ? > 4) Perhaps another option would be to do a fresh install to a ? > different system directory on DKA0 (or even onto another disk E > entirely) and then copy the ACRTL files back to the original system F > directory. I'm not sure if this is possible or how to do it, so I'llC > have to go to the compaq documentation website and see if this is 
 > documented.  > H > Any suggestions or comments (including constructive criticism) will be > very welcome!   E If you can backup the system disk, do an image backup and restore it.  The BUGCHECK should disappear.   See the thread: 
 (may wrap)   <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=BUGCHECK+group:comp.os.vms&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=8ptsok%24cpj%241%40mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com&rnum=7>   > 
 > Regards, > Chris Guthrey  > Auckland, New Zealand. > --4 > chris(at)remove.this.no-spam.prefix.guthrey.gen.nz > or ccc_crg@yahoo.com    
 Jeff Campbell  n8wxs@arrl.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:39:15 -0400   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>H Subject: Re: bugcheck on boot after 7.3 ACRTL eco applied - suggestions?5 Message-ID: <1020919192238.1922B-100000@Ives.egh.com>    On 19 Sep 2002, Chris G. wrote:   H > I have a hobbyist VMS 7.3 on Alpha 1000A.  I have applied two ECO kits9 > this morning, rebooting after each. First I applied the F > axpvms_73_update & rebooted, then I applied the axpvms73_acrtl kit & > rebooted again.  > H > At the beginning of the 2nd reboot a BUGCHECK 000036C PROGONE (Process0 > Gone) in SYSINIT occurred and the boot failed.  C I've had PROGONE bugchecks from two causes:  1) a bug in an ECO and C 2) an essential file loaded early in the boot sequence that was too B fragmented.  The 1st is unlikely, since both those ECO's have beenD out for many months (At least since January for UPDATE and March forH ACRTL, since that's when I installed them.), so more likely is cause #2.  4 If it is #2, image backup and restore should fix it.  C You may also be able to create enough free contigous space and copy 5 one of the modified files to itself with /contiguous.   < Boot the CD and go to the DCL prompt.  Mount the system diskB and $ dump/header/block=count=0 suspect.file to see how fragmentedB it is.  If over about 50 fragments, or if it requires a 2nd headerB to map all the fragments, this might be your problem.  (DEC/Compaq= support once told me the limit was 64 fragments, but I had an E image that caused problems with only 48-50 fragments and one header.)      > H > I think it is fair to say that the ACRTL patch is causing the problem. > G > Being a hobbyist system I had ignored all the big bold warnings about F > doing a full image backup of the system disk before applying the ECO4 > kits. (Of course, now I wish I had done a backup!) >  > As I see it my options are:  > A > 1) Initialise the system disk and do a fresh install of VMS 7.3 B > -- This would be quite time consuming and I'd have to rebuild my' > environment so I'd rather not do this  > 9 > 2) Boot from the install CD and go to the DCL prompt.   B > -- Mount the system disk (DKA0) and look for the files that wereE > replaced in the ECO patch. I'm hoping that either the files will be A > there with a version # -1 or will have been renamed to *.old or  > something. > 9 > I believe that the files replaced by the ACRTL eco are:  >   DECC$SHR.EXE >   CRTL.OBJ >   CRTLMSGDEF.OBJ  = It couldn't be a .OBJ.  They are only used for linking.  Lots = of drivers are written in C, and so maybe use DECC$SHR.  Then ? again, it maybe a requirement that drivers are staticly linked,  and can't use RTL's at all.   F > 3) I'm wondering if a 3rd option would be to run the VMS 7.3 installD > with the PRESERVE option. (Its been well over 6 years since I last? > upgraded a VMS box so I've no idea if this would be sensible)  > ? > 4) Perhaps another option would be to do a fresh install to a ? > different system directory on DKA0 (or even onto another disk E > entirely) and then copy the ACRTL files back to the original system F > directory. I'm not sure if this is possible or how to do it, so I'llC > have to go to the compaq documentation website and see if this is 
 > documented.  > H > Any suggestions or comments (including constructive criticism) will be > very welcome!   @ You could also copy the original DECC$SHR.EXE from the CD to theA system disk, which would have the effect of partially backing out  the ECO.  @ Or you could try a conversational boot and setting STARTUP_P1 toA "MIN" to do a minimal boot.  Maybe the problematic file won't get 6 loaded, and you can try adding things until it breaks.  @ Or set STARTUP_P2 to "TRUE" to enable boot logging, but it might be dying before it gets there.   > 
 > Regards, > Chris Guthrey  > Auckland, New Zealand.   --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:26:29 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ? Subject: Re: Disaster Recovery (as this thread now seems to be) , Message-ID: <3D8A32EA.999BE4F9@videotron.ca>   re: gas during ice storm  N Correct that gas and water were still running. Even if your furnace can igniteL (assuming it isn't spark based ignition), the fans or pump to distribute the) heat to the rest of the house won't work. T And of course, the valve that turns the gas on/off to the furnace would be electric.    H As for pilot lights, I am not certain about this anymore. Wouldn't it beN electronic ignition nowadays ?  I remember some fire department warnings aboutK pilot lights during the ice storm, but can't remember if it was to turn off M gas entirely or to ensure that the pilot lights continued. (the danger is the L gase being release by pilot light accumulating in stoves etc, especially forL those who had to abandon homes, and if gas was turned off momentarily during repairs in neighbourhood etc).   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:20:29 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>5 Subject: Re: Disaster-Tolerant clusters (was Re: ORD) B Message-ID: <Nzoi9.146603$AR1.5989053@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D8A107D.8F68ADC0@videotron.ca... > Phillip Helbig wrote: G > > two-site disaster-tolerant cluster should make the small additional E > > effort to add an extra "quorum machine" (which can be arbitrarily G > > small/cheap, since it doesn't have to do anything) at a third site.  > F > This is not a small additional effort. One has to consider the fibre link(s) I > needed to link the 3rd site to both primary and secondary. What happens  whenK > that link goes down ? You risk having both machines freeze due to lack of  quorum.   D One of us apparently really doesn't understand how quorum works.  MyG understanding is that loss of the 'quorum machine' (or the links to it) J would not bother the actual working parts of the cluster in the slightest:L the 'quorum machine' is there only to allow the survivor to continue running+ when one of the working machines goes down.    > J > The biggest problem in DT isn't when a node goes down, it is when a link goesL > down because each node then thinks it is the surviving node in the clusterD > since it doesn't see the other nodes at the other end of the link.  I Another example of the use of the 'quorum machine':  one of the surviving J nodes in the above case will succeed in reforming the cluster with it, and the other will not.    > B > Having multiple, redundant links is perhaps the better solution.  H That can get expensive and is still susceptible to unacceptable behaviorA (i.e., both sub-clusters continue to operate) if both links fail.    > I > I still think that one should be able to give votes based on ability to  reach  > a device on the ethernet.   I You can give votes based on the phase of the moon if you want to.  If you F meant in some dynamic fashion, that doesn't work unless the device canD somehow arbitrate cluster formation (otherwise, multiple partitionedL sub-clusters might be able to access it and thus continue):  if it's anotherJ VMS node, that just reduces it to the 'quorum machine' described above; ifJ it's a disk, if/when VMS supports iSCSI for quorum disks that'll work too.   > K > Think of a big node at A and a decserver at A. Think of a smaller node at  B. > L > The quorum should be such that A can survive with B but without decserver., > A can survive with decserver but without B- > B can survive without A but with decserver.   J As long as the decserver is running VMS, setting votes such that the aboveH behavior will occur should be trivial (giving all the same number is one option).   >nK > In other words, a node should be able to know if the remote node has gonen8 > down, or if the link to the remote node has gone down.  J Not only is that difficult, but it's also of no immediately obvious value.   >mK > Consider the case where A's ethernet card blows. A may still think it has L > quorum and still function happily, but A would be unreachable by users areL > appear down and they would want to connect to B, even though A is still up and J > potentially still connected to some outside service via synchronous line etc etc.  ! If A has quorum, then B does not.o   >tI > While the larger shops may be able to afford both ethernet and FDDI (roRL > whatebver other fibre technology exists to allow SCS over long distances), thebL > smaller shops may be able to have only one link, and that would need to beK > ethernet since it channels more than just SCS, it takes LAP, TCPIP DECNETT etc. >lI > Consider that one of VMS's biggest advantages is its ability to cluster? overL > ethernet. I know True 64 was sipposed to gain this ability eventually, but notMK > sure about it anymore. VMS' biggest advantage is vastly underused becauser VMSrG > isn't targetted at smaller shops for whom VMS would be the perfect DT  solutionK > with a simple/single ethernet link between 2 buildings. (that is all theyM > could afford). >aL > As a result, providing some intelligent means of handling ether failure vsL > node failure would be great for VMS and bring give it and even bigger edge in clustering.  K Cluster interconnect failure is essentially equivalent to node failure - at L least in that in both cases only one subset of the cluster should be allowedK to continue to function.  And there's nothing about using a single Ethernet G link that compromises disaster-tolerance any more than any other singleeH link:  in all single-link cases (assuming that you don't have additionalK links to a 'quorum machine' - and if VMS does not already do so it might beeE useful to support such special links over high-latency, low-bandwidth.I connections such as VPN over the Internet), you pick one end (usually the I 'primary' facility) to continue working if the link fails, and arrange topI fail-over manually to the other if a human determines that the primary isI dead.c   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:09:24 -0400I- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>95 Subject: Re: Disaster-Tolerant clusters (was Re: ORD)a, Message-ID: <3D8A3CF6.7D2C469D@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:F > One of us apparently really doesn't understand how quorum works.  MyI > understanding is that loss of the 'quorum machine' (or the links to it)rL > would not bother the actual working parts of the cluster in the slightest:N > the 'quorum machine' is there only to allow the survivor to continue running- > when one of the working machines goes down.n  ; But which working machine do you want to continue to work ?   ( lets say you have C as a quorum machine.  @ A and C and in building 1 and B in building 2, your backup site.  N A and C fail. B would be expected to take over, but B would freeze due to lack
 of quorum.   Now lets say you have:  ! A in building 1 and B and C in 2.2  N If the fibre between 1 and 2 breaks, then you have interesting problem. ShouldN A have sufficient votes to maintain quorum by itself ? If so, then the loss ofD link to backup site won't interfere with production and your telecomI infrastructure won't have to be switched over to the backup building etc.   J BUT, if A has sufficient quorum, it means that B and C must not be able toP continue on their own since loss of fibre would result in a partitioned cluster.  E It isn't enough to look at the nodes. You have to look at the telecom L infrastructure as well. There are situations where it becomes complicated toM switch production from one machine to another. if you have outside lines that,N come in, you must make arrangements to redirect those lines to the backup siteG when your primary site is gone.  Very reasonable in case of a disaster.u  L But if the loss of the fiber between your 2 sites results in the backup siteM taking over and primary losing quorum, that would mean that those telco linestM need to be redirected because they would arrive at the primary site whoch ahs-E lost connectivity to backup site where the production would continue.   H So one must really sit down and investigate many many possibilities in aJ cluster.  Having a 3rd machine in the same room as the others will greatlyH help maintaining quorum and providing uninterrupted service. But in a DTL situation, the link between the buildings as well as having 2 separate telcoM infrastructure adds to the number of failure modes and to the steps that needc to be taken in case of failure.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:23:56 -0400p' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>N5 Subject: RE: Disaster-Tolerant clusters (was Re: ORD)tT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660A20@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   JF,-  H >>> One has to consider the fibre link(s) needed to link the 3rd site to both primary and secondary.<<<  F The links to the quorum site (separate links to both primary sites) doH not need to be anything more than 10Mb, but in today's world, likely theE minimum for most large Cust's would be 100Mb. Keep in mind the quorum70 node typically has no cluster drives mounted.=20  G It is just a simple vote to determine who stays and who goes should thee. link separating the two primary sites go down.  E For a good description of some of the issues in multi-site computing, 
 reference:H http://www.tru64unix.compaq.com/unix/illuminata_dt_unix_research_note.pd fl5 [Hint - OpenVMS is presented very well in this paper]   F Also, the formal doc's on multi-site OpenVMS clusters can be found at: (url will wrap)hH http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/731FINAL/6318/6318pro_contents_003.htm l#toc_appendix_d   Regardse  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant@ Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Serviceso Voice: 613-592-46602 Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]=20l  Sent: September 19, 2002 1:59 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 5 Subject: Re: Disaster-Tolerant clusters (was Re: ORD)T     Phillip Helbig wrote:pH > two-site disaster-tolerant cluster should make the small additional=20F > effort to add an extra "quorum machine" (which can be arbitrarily=20E > small/cheap, since it doesn't have to do anything) at a third site.t  D This is not a small additional effort. One has to consider the fibreG link(s) needed to link the 3rd site to both primary and secondary. WhatuG happens when that link goes down ? You risk having both machines freezeo due to lack of quorum.  H The biggest problem in DT isn't when a node goes down, it is when a linkG goes down because each node then thinks it is the surviving node in theeD cluster since it doesn't see the other nodes at the other end of the link.y  @ Having multiple, redundant links is perhaps the better solution.  G I still think that one should be able to give votes based on ability tos reach a device on the ethernet.k  F Think of a big node at A and a decserver at A. Think of a smaller node at B.d  ? The quorum should be such that A can survive with B but withouttC decserver. A can survive with decserver but without B B can survive  without A but with decserver.-  D In other words, a node should be able to know if the remote node has; gone down, or if the link to the remote node has gone down.n  E Consider the case where A's ethernet card blows. A may still think it D has quorum and still function happily, but A would be unreachable byH users are appear down and they would want to connect to B, even though AG is still up and potentially still connected to some outside service viaa synchronous line etc etc./  G While the larger shops may be able to afford both ethernet and FDDI (roh> whatebver other fibre technology exists to allow SCS over longD distances), the smaller shops may be able to have only one link, andG that would need to be ethernet since it channels more than just SCS, ite takes LAP, TCPIP DECNET etc.  G Consider that one of VMS's biggest advantages is its ability to clustero? over ethernet. I know True 64 was sipposed to gain this ability D eventually, but not sure about it anymore. VMS' biggest advantage isF vastly underused because VMS isn't targetted at smaller shops for whomG VMS would be the perfect DT solution with a simple/single ethernet links5 between 2 buildings. (that is all they could afford).c  G As a result, providing some intelligent means of handling ether failure2H vs node failure would be great for VMS and bring give it and even bigger edge in clustering.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:56:21 GMT0! From: rob.buxton@wcc.spam.govt.nze5 Subject: Re: Disaster-Tolerant clusters (was Re: ORD) % Message-ID: <3d8a6f43.771232383@news>o  , On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:09:24 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:-         >Bill Todd wrote:nG >> One of us apparently really doesn't understand how quorum works.  My J >> understanding is that loss of the 'quorum machine' (or the links to it)M >> would not bother the actual working parts of the cluster in the slightest: O >> the 'quorum machine' is there only to allow the survivor to continue runninga. >> when one of the working machines goes down. > < >But which working machine do you want to continue to work ? > ) >lets say you have C as a quorum machine.l >aA >A and C and in building 1 and B in building 2, your backup site.s > O >A and C fail. B would be expected to take over, but B would freeze due to lacka >of quorum.6 >c >Now lets say you have:- > " >A in building 1 and B and C in 2.  F Whoa... Let's say you got A the Main Site and B the Backup site. Okay,E you lose one and you've got to readjust quorum on the other to get itfA going. Doesn't matter if it's a link failure or outage of A or B.D  A You could adjust the votes so that A has enough votes to maintaineA quorum on its own. The link goes down, A keeps going, B freezes. yE If A goes down, then you'd need to force quorum recalculation on B toe	 continue.h  F But, you could have a third site (C) housing a quorum machine. You nowE have a triangle of links so a single link doesn't cause a failure. IftD the A to B link fails systems can still communicate via A to C to B.? To maintain Quorum you need either A+B+C or A+C, or B+C or A+B.bD There's not a lot of point placing a quorum machine in the same area@ as one of the main systems as you get the same benefit from just adjusting the votes a bit.         >oO >If the fibre between 1 and 2 breaks, then you have interesting problem. Should O >A have sufficient votes to maintain quorum by itself ? If so, then the loss ofeE >link to backup site won't interfere with production and your telecomvJ >infrastructure won't have to be switched over to the backup building etc. >rK >BUT, if A has sufficient quorum, it means that B and C must not be able to Q >continue on their own since loss of fibre would result in a partitioned cluster.a > F >It isn't enough to look at the nodes. You have to look at the telecomM >infrastructure as well. There are situations where it becomes complicated to N >switch production from one machine to another. if you have outside lines thatO >come in, you must make arrangements to redirect those lines to the backup siteeH >when your primary site is gone.  Very reasonable in case of a disaster. >lM >But if the loss of the fiber between your 2 sites results in the backup site N >taking over and primary losing quorum, that would mean that those telco linesN >need to be redirected because they would arrive at the primary site whoch ahsF >lost connectivity to backup site where the production would continue. > I >So one must really sit down and investigate many many possibilities in adK >cluster.  Having a 3rd machine in the same room as the others will greatlyeI >help maintaining quorum and providing uninterrupted service. But in a DToM >situation, the link between the buildings as well as having 2 separate telcorN >infrastructure adds to the number of failure modes and to the steps that need  >to be taken in case of failure.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:18:11 -0400 5 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com>I? Subject: Does anyone have an electronic picture of the VAX cat? * Message-ID: <amdbeb$q8g$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  > If so would you mind sending me a copy at sue.skonetski@hp.com   thanks so much   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Sep 2002 21:23:48 GMT5 From: koehler@bessta.gsfc.nasa.aspm.gov (Bob Koehler) C Subject: Re: Does anyone have an electronic picture of the VAX cat?O/ Message-ID: <amdf94$675$4@skates.gsfc.nasa.gov>Y  b In article <amdbeb$q8g$1@web1.cup.hp.com>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> writes:  A    I assume you mean Albert, the US DECUS VAX SIG (later VMS SIG) ,    mascot.  Gee, haven't seen him for years.  <    How about if VAXMAN gets us a picture of Starlet instead?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil Group E speaking for no one else        | please remove ".aspm" when replyinge   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:26:01 GMTt( From: Carlo <carlo.pettirossi@libero.it> Subject: Fortran and Unixh) Message-ID: <3D8A5D54.37701D7E@libero.it>e  	 Hi there,n   I have a series of question.  H 1) I have to read a raster file (8 bit color depth) and store the values5 inside a 2 dim matrix to make further operations. So:v    subroutine readfile(ncols,nrows)   integer*2 NCOLS,NROWSe byte matrix (NROWS,NCOLS)    ...e	 ncols=500o	 nrows=500b	 open (10,uE File="myfile.rst",recordtype='stream',access="sequential",shared,...) + read(10)((matrix(i,j),j=1,ncols),i=1,nrows)l
 close (10)  	 open (10,oE File="myfile.rst",recordtype='stream',access="sequential",shared,...)  do i=1,nrows do j=1,ncols read(10)(matrix(i,j) enddo  enddoh
 close (10) ...i  F Is there a reason why, in both cases, i obtain the transpose of what IG want to obtain? I noticed it reads in the file in a wrong way cause the.8 operations I have to carry out give wrong results. So I:	 open (11, E File="result.rst",recordtype='stream',access="sequential",shared,...)t write (11)matrix
 close (11)  G and open the file with normal photo retouching program, and notice thatnE the image is really been transposed. Of course if I open "myfile.rst"iF with the same photo retouching program it displays in the correct way.  D 2) Is there a way to prevent 'ls' to send the 'file not found' error* message to the screen within a ksh script?  G 3) in an internal network (no SSH needed) i need to execute a script oniG a unix machine from a vax machine. I checked up into the inetd.conf andnG the demon rshd is uncommented. I put the name of the vax machine in theoF hosts.equiv and in the .rlogin file in my $HOME dir. Is there anythingH left to avoid the connection refuse from the remote (unix) by using rsh?D which are the steps to configure and enable rsh? The vax machine canF access with no problem another unix machine (in the same network) with4 rsh. This last unix machine has no hosts.allow file.   Thanks in advance. Bye   Carlo.  > p.s. thanks to all the ones who answered my previous posts :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:03:05 -0400mK From: "Encompass - HP Enterprise Technology Symposium" <KilleenJ@toast.net> Y Subject: Re: From Mark Gorham - Clarification - OpenVMS Symposium AKA OpenVMS  Advanced T(/ Message-ID: <uokpe3i4ksmn4e@corp.supernews.com>i  K David would that we could co-locate but the essence of the OpenVMS AdvancedtG Technical Bootcamp is technical hands-on training.  That requires it bewJ located in Nashua because of the lab and engineer resources required to do	 it right.f  J Several of the ideas here about date separation and pricing considerations= are interesting while maintaining the high quality of both...      --   Jeff Killeen   All Info: http://www.Killeen.ccl  ? ---------------------------------------------------------------   < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D8945FE.1EFE5C77@fsi.net...p7 > Encompass - HP Enterprise Technology Symposium wrote:- > >3F > > As I think Sue will confirm everyone believes the right choice for almostI > > all is both opportunities and what we need to do is figure out how tos makeG > > that possible for as many as feasible.  Solutions that will work...l > >nJ > > 1) Building Star Trek transporters so the pre-conference can be run in. > > Nashua and the Symposium run in major city > > J > > 2) Someone building a convention center and 4000 additional hotel room in > > Nashua.o > >h> > > We suspect a 3rd alternative will need to be thought of... > & > Can I make an outrageous suggestion? >mF > Traditionally, DECUS was two days of pre-symposium seminars and fiveH > days of content. As I read HP/ETS-2002, it's two days of pre-symposium$ > seminars and four days of content. >" > How 'bout combining the two? >r	 > Day #1:  > Pre-symposium seminars > 1st day of OpenVMS content > 	 > Day #2:e > Pre-symposium seminars > 2nd day of OpenVMS content >  > Day #3 > 1st day of Symposium content > 3rd day of OpenVMS content >  > Day #4 > 2nd day of Symposium content >r > Day #5 > 3rd day of Symposium content >  > Day #6 > 4th day of Symposium content >o > Day #7 > 5th day of Symposium content >l > Just a thought...  >n > -- > David J. Dachterae > dba DJE Systemse > http://www.djesys.com/ >n* > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:10:01 GMTu1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>cY Subject: Re: From Mark Gorham - Clarification - OpenVMS Symposium AKA OpenVMS Advanced Tet. Message-ID: <Jzui9.519568$UU1.86636@sccrnsc03>  K "Encompass - HP Enterprise Technology Symposium" <KilleenJ@toast.net> wroteo4 in message news:uoie6c5uhorb96@corp.supernews.com...K > As I think Sue will confirm everyone believes the right choice for almost,L > all is both opportunities and what we need to do is figure out how to makeE > that possible for as many as feasible.  Solutions that will work...> > H > 1) Building Star Trek transporters so the pre-conference can be run in, > Nashua and the Symposium run in major city  J I thought that is what the Big Dig was all about! Oops, it's not done yet.   >gK > 2) Someone building a convention center and 4000 additional hotel room int	 > Nashua.e  / Is there that much unused real estate up there?i   >f< > We suspect a 3rd alternative will need to be thought of... >t  7 I share my friend and colleagues suspicion on this! ;-}t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:20:35 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>tY Subject: Re: From Mark Gorham - Clarification - OpenVMS Symposium AKA OpenVMS Advanced Tei, Message-ID: <3D8A3189.44B062CB@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote:2C > and pieces...assuming you don't have to pay union labor rates for:M > installation too, and you can snake an ethernet cable to each radio withoutfD > getting an electrician involved (ie. parking lot-to-parking lot or > rooftop-to-rooftop).  ? Ever seen the DEC guys setup the demo areas at DECUS symposia ?i  N I bet the VMS engineers would have no problems running an ethernet between theN two buildings and "protect" it with duct tape to make it stay on the sidewalk,M and across the streets. I figure they could do this is 20 minutes or less :-)0   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 02:11:31 GMT-1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>5Y Subject: Re: From Mark Gorham - Clarification - OpenVMS Symposium AKA OpenVMS Advanced Te ' Message-ID: <3D8A896E.24EDF2B6@fsi.net>5  5 Encompass - HP Enterprise Technology Symposium wrote:e > M > David would that we could co-locate but the essence of the OpenVMS AdvancedoI > Technical Bootcamp is technical hands-on training.  That requires it be L > located in Nashua because of the lab and engineer resources required to do > it right.B > L > Several of the ideas here about date separation and pricing considerations? > are interesting while maintaining the high quality of both...r   Hhmmm... Good thought.  H DECUS used to was semi-annual. I saw the other posts about putting it in% the Springtime (Northern Hemisphere).g   Maybe:   1HCY = OpenVMS Symposium
 2HCY = HP/ETSa  < Something to think about, for what little it may be worth...   --   David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systems- http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:55:56 -0400s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e9 Subject: Re: Hardware Mirroring 'vs' Software Mirroring ?i, Message-ID: <3D8A2BC3.6962CE1A@videotron.ca>  K Wouldn't software volume shadowing provide performance improvement for reade operations ?  L Isn't it smart enough to spread the IO requests on the various members basedM on load ? I was under the impression that harware based platforms didn't havesI as much "humphs" since all the requests come through a single controller.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 02:19:07 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>09 Subject: Re: Hardware Mirroring 'vs' Software Mirroring ?C' Message-ID: <3D8A8B39.36DD31A1@fsi.net>i   Rob Kersey wrote:  > 3 > Currently we use Volshad to mirror all our disks?t > H > We have been looking at our disk controllers and have realised that itA > is possible to use them to mirror the disks instead of Volshad.e > E > Our disks are stripped using disk controllers and were wondering if(H > using the controllers to mirror the disks will improve the performance* > of our application running on the vaxes. > F > The application performs a large amount of writes to the database soA > therfore there must be a fair amount of mirroring being done by < > Volshad, which in turn would be an overhead on the system. > C > Has anyone done any benchmarking comparing hardware mirroring and B > software mirroring? Can anyone point me in the dirrection of anyG > figures comparing the too? Has anyone changed from software mirroring G > to hardware mirroring and noticed an increase/decrease in performance0 > (or vice versa)? >  > We use the following.. >  > OpenVMS V7.1 > 2 Vax 4000/108 in a cluster  > 512Mb of RAM eacht > Oracle Rdb V7.0-5b > Volshad Version ! > 2 x Disk Controllers - HSD50-AXh  ? I've not only done mirroring, I've built fully automated backupe strategies around it.t  E To me, the biggest advantage is the fact you eliminate the shadow-setsF merging resulting from VMS crashes and other issues like files open at: system-shutdown time that result in full-merges on reboot.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2002 23:19:08 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e9 Subject: Re: Hardware Mirroring 'vs' Software Mirroring ?e3 Message-ID: <gBhi9mQNiPrP@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  \ In article <3D8A2BC3.6962CE1A@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:M > Wouldn't software volume shadowing provide performance improvement for readi > operations ? > N > Isn't it smart enough to spread the IO requests on the various members basedO > on load ? I was under the impression that harware based platforms didn't havefK > as much "humphs" since all the requests come through a single controller.r    ( 	There is a lot lost in this discussion.  . 	Hoff, you know what needs to go into the FAQ?@ 	How to properly search groups.google.com for prior discussions.  > 	We get into round and rounds about every 4-6 months.  I think? 	certain vendors cause some of the same traffic, but I digress.v  > 	Software Volume shadowing read performance improvement?  Not G 	necessarily.  If you have two disks shadowed versus a 6 member RAID10,p 	HBVS loses most every time.  < 	You can tilt the playing field in either direction but HBVS# 	wins mostly in my opinion for now.k  @ 	Here's another win. . . EVA (Enterprise Virtual Array) requires@ 	the same RAID level to be used when creating snapclones and theC 	clones must reside in the same disk group.  HBVS can have a RAID10f? 	as a master and a RAID0 member as a slave.  Bust out the RAID0a@ 	for backup on reincorporation Volume Shadowing minicopy quickly? 	catches it up and the RAID0 serves reads too and can reside in 9 	a separate datacenter and tears up less storage (maybe).e  C 	However, storage based solutions are getting new wrinkles and with D 	ENSA , DRM II, and vectors coming storage is going to take a crazy @ 	(good) turn in the next 12 months.  Make your head spin but fun 	stuff!   A 	Ease of use from VMS, flawless serverless backup , ENSA, DRM II,b3 	and vectors.  Here is something along these lines:   W http://storagemagazine.techtarget.com/strgFeature/1,291266,sid35_gci828723_idx2,00.htmlo  K Although it isn't being shipped yet, Palo Alto, CA-based Compaq also has aneH innovative implementation of storage virtualization called the VersaStorL Executor. VersaStor uses intelligent agent technology to virtualize storage.H The agent, called a vector, resides in the host. The mapping informationN permanently resides in the VersaStor Executor. When the virtualization processK starts, mapping information is uploaded into the vector, where it's cached.dM Virtualization commands are sent to the vector in the host from the VersaStortN Executor software that resides in the appliance. Then, the vector executes the
 commands.   N The VersaStor Executor uses asymmetrical virtualization in its implementation.N This approach basically means that the appliance isn't in the data path of theL SAN. By choosing to do things this way, Compaq claims that it eliminates anyK single point of failure, and doesn't introduce latency into the data path. e  M In contrast to some other implementations, the VersaStor Executor uses policy M management to simplify administration and guarantee Quality of Service (QoS).kK Compaq implements policy management by allowing users to specify attributes)I such as capacity, server availability, data availability, RAID protectionnL level, performance characteristics and storage pool hierarchy location. ThenB during the virtualization process, the VersaStor Executor softwareN automatically distributes the physical blocks based on the specified attributeK information. The VersaStor Executor is presently in the alpha test stage of.2 development and will be introduced later in 2002.    ---v  : 	May indeed render softare based RAID a thing of the past.  = 	After all, the scenario is I have an LBN or a range of LBNs.  	I want:   			1)  Fast access 			2)  Fault tolerant access 			3)  Serverless backup  = 	We don't care how you get there.  Further qualifying 3), thes? 	advantage is NO or little IO impact on the production nodes asdA 	a big goal there I'm sure and is basically reading from a clone,I# 	a clone in a separate cabinet :-).    				RobV  B Men with walkie-talkie                  I'm home again to you babeC Men with flashlights waving             You know it makes me wonder G Up upon the tower                       Sittin' in the quiet slipstreaml> The clock reads daylight savin'         Rollin' in the thunder  -                                 -- Neil Younge   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:46:07 GMTi= From: peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)n Subject: Re: how do you start X 2 Message-ID: <3d8a1abc.28431500@news.cable.ntl.com>  / On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:28:31 GMT, Tim Llewellynw' <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:n   >C >H: >"peter.watkinson1@ ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)" wrote: >> t >> Hi folks, >> nG >> I got my hobbiest license + cd of Open VMS for alpha. I went throughAB >> the install though I had a couple of problems with the licensesI >> something to do with the checksum. Anyway I just carried on regardlesstI >> and installed everything else - though it did take quite a long time - D >> about 3 hours - though I am a bit suspicious about the scsi disk!I >> Anyway the install seemed to finish so I rebooted then did boot dka600tH >> and it arrived at a login prompt - I entered my password then it justF >> gives a $ prompt I've fiddled around a bit but I'd also like to getH >> Dec windows up - how do I do this - or have I done something wrong onB >> the install - I've looked on google but not yet found anything! >> w >> Thanks for any help.E >> f >u> >Did you try @sys$startup:decw$startup and see if that helps.  > O >Did you select DECWindows base and workstation support when you installed VMS?f; >If not you can use sys$update:decw$tailor.exe to add them.o > 6 >Did you install DEC Windows Motif? If not install it. >uF >Did you register and load your DECW-MOTIF license PAK? If not, do so. >s= >Did you install Open3d if required by your graphics adapter?  >If not, do that.  >eD >If you did all of these and still no joy, please post more details. >  >regards >h >> Kind regards, >> b >> Peter Watkinson( >> peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.com >> remove <nospam> to reply :-)n >m >--   >tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk  >uI >* PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *a    + I sent a reply - but it hasn't arrived yet!o  A Also, when registering the PAK License one of the requirements is E Product Name, I entered OPENVMS-ALPHA however the system doesn't likegD this does anyone know what I'm supposed to enter? This is a required@ field so I can't go any further without it. BTW the system is an Alpha!    Kind regards,     Peter Watkinsonl% peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.comt remove <nospam> to reply :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:46:36 GMT = From: peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)i Subject: Re: how do you start Xt2 Message-ID: <3d8a1b86.28633578@news.cable.ntl.com>  / On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:28:31 GMT, Tim Llewellyn ' <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:h   >i > : >"peter.watkinson1@ ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)" wrote: >> o >> Hi folks, >> wG >> I got my hobbiest license + cd of Open VMS for alpha. I went throughrB >> the install though I had a couple of problems with the licensesI >> something to do with the checksum. Anyway I just carried on regardless I >> and installed everything else - though it did take quite a long time - D >> about 3 hours - though I am a bit suspicious about the scsi disk!I >> Anyway the install seemed to finish so I rebooted then did boot dka600nH >> and it arrived at a login prompt - I entered my password then it justF >> gives a $ prompt I've fiddled around a bit but I'd also like to getH >> Dec windows up - how do I do this - or have I done something wrong onB >> the install - I've looked on google but not yet found anything! >> d >> Thanks for any help.h >> t >s> >Did you try @sys$startup:decw$startup and see if that helps.  >cO >Did you select DECWindows base and workstation support when you installed VMS?l; >If not you can use sys$update:decw$tailor.exe to add them.e >a6 >Did you install DEC Windows Motif? If not install it. > F >Did you register and load your DECW-MOTIF license PAK? If not, do so. > = >Did you install Open3d if required by your graphics adapter?i >If not, do that.  >tD >If you did all of these and still no joy, please post more details. >b   Hi,t  D When I installed it took so long that I left the system and went and+ did something else first it said - I think o   installs   0%   then   0%  ---    10%   etc   1 However it did take a long time in between chunksg  A I left it and came back later and it had returned to the original B install screen. So I selected option 4 which said something like - display items installed    and it saidb   Open VMS 7.2 motifu
 tcp ip etc  
 so I rebootede  = there were no configuration questions throughout the install!s  8 DO you think I should reinstall trying a different disk?               >regards >  >> Kind regards, >> l >> Peter Watkinson( >> peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.com >> remove <nospam> to reply :-)- >  >--   >tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk  >tI >* PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *t    
 kind regards,S     Peter Watkinson3% peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.como remove <nospam> to reply :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:51:47 GMTe8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond) Subject: Re: how do you start Xl2 Message-ID: <DNqi9.66$D76.829527@news.cpqcorp.net>  1 In article <3D8A0776.E4E34C14@blueyonder.co.uk>, m6 Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:  O >Did you select DECWindows base and workstation support when you installed VMS?s; >If not you can use sys$update:decw$tailor.exe to add them.   : Don't even think about the old "tailor" programs on ALPHA!  D If you took all the defaults, you should have the needed DECWindows D parts of OpenVMS.  If you excluded them, boot the CD and go down theE "preserve" path until you get to re-install the O/S.  Then say NO to: F "Do you want the defualts for all product options?".  You have to walk( through them all and change them to yes.   6 >Did you install DEC Windows Motif? If not install it.  K Which you can do from the "Install or upgrade layered products and patches"r option on the CD-ROM.f     -- mI       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USA H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Sep 2002 21:12:03 GMT5 From: koehler@bessta.gsfc.nasa.aspm.gov (Bob Koehler)0 Subject: Re: how do you start Xn/ Message-ID: <amdej3$675$3@skates.gsfc.nasa.gov>   r In article <3d8a1abc.28431500@news.cable.ntl.com>, peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) writes:   > , >I sent a reply - but it hasn't arrived yet! ><B >Also, when registering the PAK License one of the requirements isF >Product Name, I entered OPENVMS-ALPHA however the system doesn't likeE >this does anyone know what I'm supposed to enter? This is a requirediA >field so I can't go any further without it. BTW the system is an  >Alpha!  >t  @    You are supposed to enter EXACTLY what is on the PAK.  If youB    use sys$update:vmslicense.com the prompts should also match the    PAK.h  A    If you do not have a license for VMS installed, X windows will.
    not start.m  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporation = NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GrouptE speaking for no one else        | please remove ".aspm" when replying-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:16:21 -0400M- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>R Subject: Re: how do you start Xo+ Message-ID: <3D8A3E96.626236D@videotron.ca>i  I during the VMS install, you need to install the decwindows support files.i  . then you need to install the DW-MOTIF license.  I Then you need to install the decwindows motif package (separate from VMS)a! [DWMOTIF_VAX125] in the hobby cd)i  Z Then, ensure the SYSGEN parameter WINDOW_SYSTEM is set properly (set to 1 for decwindows).  = Then, edit the systartup_VMS.com prodedure to ensure that theiJ IGNORE_DECWINDOWS logical name is not set (not sure about its precide name: though, but that should be obvious when you look at file).   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 21:23:09 +0000 (UTC)-- From: lewis@spyder.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)r Subject: Re: how do you start Xm. Message-ID: <amdf7t$nqp$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) writes in article <3d8a1abc.28431500@news.cable.ntl.com> dated Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:46:07 GMT:tB >Also, when registering the PAK License one of the requirements isF >Product Name, I entered OPENVMS-ALPHA however the system doesn't likeE >this does anyone know what I'm supposed to enter? This is a requiredNA >field so I can't go any further without it. BTW the system is ant >Alpha!   L That's your problem then.  VMS will boot without a license, but it won't run& Decwindows or any networking software.  L Registering the licenses always seemed pretty straightforward to me.  Log inE as SYSTEM (or another privileged account) to do it.  As somebody elseeI suggested, the @SYS$UPDATE:VMSLICENSE.COM makes it even easier.  LicensesoB are checksummed, so you must type in all the data with 0 mistakes.  I Tip:  Load the PAKs for OPENVMS-ALPHA, DW-MOTIF, and TCPIP(?) first, thenfK reboot and set up networking so you can electronically transfer the rest of- them.  -  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgs> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:44:35 GMTE= From: peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)p Subject: Re: how do you start X 2 Message-ID: <3d8a0bb7.24586531@news.cable.ntl.com>  / On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:28:31 GMT, Tim Llewellyn ' <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:a   >l >o: >"peter.watkinson1@ ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)" wrote: >> r >> Hi folks, >> oG >> I got my hobbiest license + cd of Open VMS for alpha. I went through0B >> the install though I had a couple of problems with the licensesI >> something to do with the checksum. Anyway I just carried on regardless6I >> and installed everything else - though it did take quite a long time -iD >> about 3 hours - though I am a bit suspicious about the scsi disk!I >> Anyway the install seemed to finish so I rebooted then did boot dka600 H >> and it arrived at a login prompt - I entered my password then it justF >> gives a $ prompt I've fiddled around a bit but I'd also like to getH >> Dec windows up - how do I do this - or have I done something wrong onB >> the install - I've looked on google but not yet found anything! >>   >> Thanks for any help.f >> m >t> >Did you try @sys$startup:decw$startup and see if that helps.  >oO >Did you select DECWindows base and workstation support when you installed VMS? ; >If not you can use sys$update:decw$tailor.exe to add them.t >d6 >Did you install DEC Windows Motif? If not install it. >hF >Did you register and load your DECW-MOTIF license PAK? If not, do so. >e= >Did you install Open3d if required by your graphics adapter?t >If not, do that.  >pD >If you did all of these and still no joy, please post more details. >e   Hi,.  D When I installed it took so long that I left the system and went and+ did something else first it said - I think t   install    0%   then   0%  ---    10%   etcg  1 However it did take a long time in between chunkse  A I left it and came back later and it had returned to the originaleB install screen. So I selected option 4 which said something like - display items installed    and it said    Open VMS 7.2 motif/
 tcp ip etc  
 so I rebootedn  = there were no configuration questions throughout the install!-  8 DO you think I should reinstall trying a different disk?               >regards >R >> Kind regards, >> : >> Peter Watkinson( >> peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.com >> remove <nospam> to reply :-)o >t >--   >tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk  >.I >* PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *o    
 kind regards,i     Peter Watkinsone% peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.coms remove <nospam> to reply :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:09:15 -0400m- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>v# Subject: Re: HP website integrationr, Message-ID: <3D8A12C9.61BC3DD5@videotron.ca>   Bob Knowles wrote: > J > I know next to nothing about the PC business, but I do know that this isI > nothing to do with web integration. Certain PCs still have the "Compaq"uC > brand and were planned to maintain the "Compaq" brand from day 1.e  J But some compaq "brands" were to become "HP" brands. For instance ProliantM servers are HP Proliant. But do they point to an HP wegb site or a compaq webe site ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:30:13 +0200 B From: Michiel Erens <I.dont.want.spam@this.mailaddress.is.invalid>G Subject: Re: HTML to browse the Freeware CDs - grab a copy if you wish. 6 Message-ID: <3D8A33D5.5CB@this.mailaddress.is.invalid>   Paul Sture wrote:t > A > In addition to my other response, does anyone know of a freely aE > available utility which you can feed a url to check for broken url c0 > links, (preferably running on VMS, of course)?  @ There are several written in Perl. I don't know if they work on 0 VMS or at all. See the links at the bottom of : # http://linkchecker.sourceforge.net/n   -- e ME Posted by news://news.nb.nuS   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Sep 2002 05:40:47 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: LAT connectionE- Message-ID: <8765x18xpc.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   / koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:a  Y > In article <am9pgg$htv$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>, "Karel Sandler" <sandler@ujf.cas.cz> writes:7K > > I would appreciate it if someone can help me with LAT. I have some unixCO > > alphas and two old MicroVaxes (VAX/VMS V5.4-1) now. Both have LAT, but onlye2                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ O > > one TCPIP. I can connect to them from alphas using unix llogin command, buthO > > don't know how to establish login from vax to unix, if needed. I am looking P > > for the right sequence of  LATCP and SET HOST commands, without success yet. >  >    set host /lat >   / MAybe not. When did LATMASTER ship as standard?o   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.S@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:17:29 -0400n; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>s Subject: Re: MAIL suggestion" Message-ID: <3d8a2323@news.si.com>  I >I haven't looked at this for ages but I seem to recall that some POP and  IMAP; >clients get rather upset if the headers aren't at the top.t  I And that's why you use POP/IMAP servers that rearrange the headers on thee; fly and move them to the top when the message is requested.i --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comrA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.coma= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventu< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:11:34 +0200i1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>	! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.r5 Message-ID: <3D8A1356.AEB05E80@swissonline.delete.ch>h   Bill Todd wrote: > D .... and I agree with much of what he has to say.  His is a far moreF sensible and logical outlook than some of the gung-ho spiel that we've seen in this thread.  B Let's get some fact in here so you can consider them for yourself.    D * Despite all the current talk, more than 15 years have passed sinceG Saddam Hussein attacked his own citizens with BCW.  It is not something D that happened in the last few months despte what you might be led to believe.  G * About 15 years ago George Bush Snr's Administration was on good terms B with Saddam Hussein and regarded him as a strong leader and if notC pro-US then at least not anti-US.  George Bush Snr's administrationuA would also have been aware of Saddam Hussein's attacks on his own., citizens but they chose to turn a blind eye.  C * No-one has displayed any public evidence to suggest that bio-chemH. weapons are being manufactured and stockpiled.  F * No-one has displayed any public evidence of any intention by Iraq toD invade other countries since the Kuwait invasion about 15 years ago.  C * No-one has displayed any public evidence to confirm that Iraq wassE involved with bin Laden - or for that matter even any independent andl@ impartial evidence that bin Laden was directly involved with the/ planning and operation of the Sep 2001 attacks.   H * Iraq is significantly short of delivery mechanisms for weapons of massH destruction (ie. rockets) and so its ability to attack is quite limited.  F * The USA, UK, Russia and many others have stockpiles of BCW and thereG is absolutely nothing to suggest that they would never use them if they>" were attacked by a superior force.  G *  If killing one's own civilians was the justification for attacking adE country then why did the US wait so long before attacking the TalebanuD forces in Afghanistan ?  Why did the US not attack China on numerousC occasions in the last 40 years ?  Why not Idi Amin in the 1970's in H Uganda ?  Why did the US actively support the Pinochet regime and othersH in South America even though these regimes killed thousands of their ownF citizens ?  And why did the US depose socialist governments in CentralB America even though the elections were fair and there were no massG killings by the government ?  The answer is simple - it depended on howt, much the USA was interested in that country.  H * No-one has said a word against Israel, a country that also has weaponsH of mass destruction and Bio-Chem Weapons, and in the last six months has, used those Bio-Chem weapons on Palestinians.  E * The Bush administration has said that they want "regime changes" inrA Syria, Palestine and Yemen.  Talk of American intervention in thegH Middle-east is only encouraging more young people to become militants in many countries in that region.  G * A regime change in Israel would be far more effective at establishingoF a peace in the Middle-east than would a ongoing war against any regimeA that the US happened to disagree with.  When Ehud Barak was prime3F minister of Israel there were far fewer deaths in Israel and Palestine" then there have been under Sharon.  D * Having US troops in Saudi Arabia to prop up the dictatorship is anD indignity on political and religious grounds, so it is not suprisingB that resentment is growing.  Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship and isC steadily brewing towards a revolution especially with the increasede opposition to the US.  h  C * Oil was the key factor in the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and now itsH appears to be a factor for American intervention.  If Saudi Arabia falls= then a major pro-American oil producer in the Middle-east hastE disappeared. If this did happen then Israel would be left as the only H pro-American country in that region but it has no oil. The fact that anyC new administration in SA would need to find customers for their oilpG seems to have escaped Bush's consideration.  (Cheney and Bush have good'D contacts in the petroleum industry and of course plenty of financial
 interest.)    E * Mid-term elections are coming up in early November and Bush's partynB could easily lose their majority.  What has Bush achieved since heG bought his way into office ?  An inconclusive war on terrorism and whatbF else ?  The US economy has continued to slide under his management and= both he and Cheney were involved in rather dubious businesseslD practices.  Right now he desperately needs to build some credibilityF before elections.  If he cannot keep up the interest in a possible war. then peple might start to look at the economy.  H * Much of the world believes that America should stop their bias towardsC Israel and take a strictly neutral stance.  Reducing the deaths andtF giving Palestinians some dignity would increases Bush's credibility in? the eyes of the rest of the world.  It would also remove a verydB significant motivation for the Sep 2001 terrorists.  But of course; backing away from Israel is unlikely to gain votes at home.I    @ The pretense is that this war is about removing a tyrant but the@ so-called evidence is ancient - there is no current and reliableH evidence of possession of weapons of mass destruction, of ability to use6 any such weapons or of intent to use any such weapons.  H George Bush is trying to act on matters that his father chose to ignore.  G Other tyrants have been allowed to continue their business and it lookskG like this was either because they were pro-US and involved with matterssD concerning the US, or because they were of no interest at all to the USA.  * The proposed war is only about two things.F (a) Oil supplies and the continuity of those supplies under favourable regimes or governments. A and (b) about Bush getting some credibility and looking after his , interests and his party's interests at home.  C In the recent words of of British newspaper, without a war the Busht) Administration "will look like roadkill".b    F (If you want to read opinions which question Bush and his actions, tryH the UK's The Guardian newspaper - at http://www.guardian.co.uk - and TheD Independent - at http://www.independent.co.uk/ .  In The IndependentH look particularly for articles by Robert Fisk, a correspondent who knowsD the region very well.  His reports have far more veracity that GWB's+ crocodile tears.  Start with the article atoE http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=334318.B then perhaps try the link at the bottom of that page "Robert Fisk:B America's case for war is built on blindness, hypocrisy and lies")     cheers   John McLeang    G PS.  I don't care who posting to this group did what and when.  It doesa= not excuse a closed mind and a gung-ho attitude that shows not consideration of the facts.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:06:29 GMTr* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.-B Message-ID: <Uepi9.147183$AR1.6022708@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  G Before someone else jumps all over John for a couple of inaccuracies...   > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3D8A1356.AEB05E80@swissonline.delete.ch...n   ...   F > * Despite all the current talk, more than 15 years have passed sinceI > Saddam Hussein attacked his own citizens with BCW.  It is not somethinglF > that happened in the last few months despte what you might be led to
 > believe.  J The first reference I found was just over 14 years ago, and there may haveJ been more a bit later.  But I don't believe much in that specific area has* occurred since the Gulf War 11+ years ago.   ...   E > * No-one has displayed any public evidence to suggest that bio-chem 0 > weapons are being manufactured and stockpiled.  K I think there has been evidence of such activity in the past, however.  AndCI I have no problem with enforcing the U.N. inspection provisions to ensure'L that it *stays* in the past, as long as it's done under U.N. auspices ratherC than by the U.S. acting independently (since those provisions *are*nH U.N.-based, it's none of our damn business outside of the context of our$ participation in that organization).  K In fact, the main difference between Iraq and the many other countries thataI are likely conducting R&D in such areas is the U.N. agreements reached as % the condition of ending the Gulf War.n   ...b  E > * No-one has displayed any public evidence to confirm that Iraq was G > involved with bin Laden - or for that matter even any independent and:B > impartial evidence that bin Laden was directly involved with the1 > planning and operation of the Sep 2001 attacks.d  I I believe your first phrase above is correct, but have some problems with I your second.  Bin Laden himself has at least implicitly attempted to takenF credit, and elements (perhaps high-level elements) of his organizationK appear to have been directly involved:  I'd still like to see all availableoH evidence laid out for inspection (I've lost track at this point of whichD assertions have credible backing and which do not), but would not beA surprised to find out that reasonably persuasive evidence exists.    ...   J > * No-one has said a word against Israel, a country that also has weaponsJ > of mass destruction and Bio-Chem Weapons, and in the last six months has. > used those Bio-Chem weapons on Palestinians.  K If that's indeed true, it didn't receive enough press in the U.S. for me tobA notice it, so I'll reserve judgement pending a credible citation.m  G However, bringing Israel into the discussion is appropriate on multiplerI fronts:  not only is a great deal of the antipathy toward the U.S. due totE our decidedly unbalanced (I'd say in multiple senses) attitude towardsF Israel, not only is Israel's repression of its own occupied populationH repugnant in ways that we seem disinclined to tolerate elsewhere, but ifG we're going to start demanding unilaterially that Iraq comply with U.N.tD directives then we'd better start doing the same for Israel as well.  I Other than the above (minus the last paragraph), I pretty much agree witheI your observations.  I sometimes question my own objectivity in evaluatingaL the current Administration due to the domestic political issues involved, so7 some confirmation from an outside source is reassuring.   G Dubya's father was an intelligent man with at least some moral compass.cK Dubya is deficient in both areas, and people like Cheney and Wolfowitz seemtE to be brothers under the skin to Saddam, just more fortunate in theiruI up-bringing.  I like having someone as competent as Rumsfeld in charge ofoH our national defense, but like him less when he lends his credibility toH policy-definition (e.g., in his current exhortations to Congress) ratherI than policy-implementation.  Powell still seems to be struggling at least + somewhat to do the right thing, but losing.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:52:39 -0400c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.e, Message-ID: <3D8A2AFE.273A7E31@videotron.ca>   David Froble wrote:rO > While always looking for ulterior motives, what seems to be overlooked is thelR > apparent 'unthinkableness' of airliners being flown into the WTC, until after it > happened.e  N It was revealed yesterday that the various US spy/secret/security services hadI been warned about the possibility of airliners being flown into sensitive K facilities. Why do you think that nuclear reactors were built to widthstandl( the crash of a large airline into them ?  R > Just what is so unthinkable about smuggling a nuclear device into NYC and takingM > out the whole city?  It can happen.  The way the world is going, it's not ae > matter of 'if', but 'when'.a  R Suggest you look at the movie "Peacemaker" with Nicole Kidman and the guy from ER.  N A terrorist isn't going to wait for Irak to develop some primitive bomb, he'llL go to the black market and buy existing materials/bombs. Note again that theI USA reversed its accusation and admitted that Saddam doesn't have nucleartK weapons (are these different from "nukular ?) and it would take it at leastoD one year to build one should he get access to the materials. That isM tantamount to saying that Saddam found the page on the web that describes how  to make an A bomb.  N (Same applies to those primitive drawings found in Afghanistan which were moreM likely left there to scare the americans into thinking they were out to buildl
 such bombs.) v  R > tapes showing OBL pleased at the loss of life, not just the symbolic blow at the1 > WTC, makes it quite clear what their agenda is.   N OBL != Saddam. Bin laden is nothing but a terrorist with an agenda.  Saddam isL the lawful head of state of the country Irak, with membership in the UN.  HeL may not be well liked, he may not be well behaved, but he is a head of state0 and as such deserves a basic diplomatic process.  R > It wasn't Montreal, JF, it was NYC.  The US is the target, do not try to make it > a world event.  N Oh, how convenient. But on sept 11, the USA was very happy that it was a worldL event and instantly got support from so many nations, including Iran.  SorryM to rain on your parade, but just like the Titanic was not a "Canadian" event, I the WTC is not a "USA" event. Its scale is such that it is will be in the / history of the world, just like the Titanic is.S  M Note that for me, the WTC disaster is very separate from the issue of OBL anddL terrorism. People don't remember the Titanic as a coward act of the shippingK line to make the boat go faster even if they knew there were icebergs, theysH remember the human suffering, lack of safety boats stranding many on theL sinking ship etc etc. And the movie by Cameron was able to show the scale of this disaster.  L Similarly, to me, the WTC is symbolic of a disaster of human proportions.  II do not think of the terrorist pilots as the planes impact, I think of theiN people in those offices, seing a plane come to them. I think of the passengersM in the planes, and I think of the folks stranded above the impact zone. Thoseb/ who jumped. And those who witnessed the horror.m  E On Sept 11 2002, the CBC in canada ran a documentary on how the media0I acted/reacted on spet 11. And they interviewed the editor of the new yorkrN daily news. He showed the pictures he had selected for the sept 12 2001 issue.H One was a severed hand on the ground next to debris. The editor said "we< decided to tell it like it was and not try to sanitize it".   M The fact that a photographer was able to see such a bodypart means to me thatiG this was not an isolated event and that plenty of people witnesses such N horror, and plenty were traumatized by the event.  The dead may rest in peace, but the survivors won't. n  L And to me, the human aspect of the WTC disaster is far too important and theE terrorists do not deserve much mention, even if they are responsible.u    K And Irak has nothing to do with Sept 11. About the only ties with terrorismiG that were said to exist is Irak paying money to families of palestinaineH suicide bombers, and even that, I am not certain they come from the same$ Saddam Hussein who is head of Irak.   G Consider the following scenario: Country X with a beef against Irak andeL Palestine finds a guy named "Saddam Hussein" and gets him to sign cheques heL then sends to the families of the suicide bombers in palestine.  Israel thenJ invades palestine, finds those cheques and claims it has irrevocable proof< that Irak's Saddam Hussein helps the palestinian terrorists.  A >  As the target, I for one do not intent to sit idly waiting foruO > some terrorist to take me out, or worse, those I care about and would be hurtn* > more by their loss than by my own death.  N As a "target" you should first wonder why you are a target instead of shootingM left and right , accusing everyone that is convenient to accuse. Current BushfL Jr tactics not only have no intl support, but more importantly, add fuel and: determination to existing anger against the USA in certainN cultures/subcultures. The bigger the anger, the more determined the terrorists6 become, and the easier it is for them to recruit more.  B Taliban and OBL were helped by the USA to throw the Soviets out ofK Afghanistan. You'd think that OBL would have struck back at Russia, perhaps I destroying red square or something. Why not ? Because in the middle east, L there isn't much anger/feelings against Russia. The anger is directed at theJ USA because the USA has middle east policies  that are despised by many inL middle east. It has nothing to do with the monetary success and power of theJ USA. It has everything to do with how this power is used by the USA in the middle east.  J > the future, but for now there is that small difficulty.  There have been= > documented incidences of Iraq trying to get such resources.r  N Got news for you. Same applies to the USA, Russia, India, Pakistan, Israel etcN who have publicly acknowledged nuclear programs. And countries such as Canada,L France, UK also have developped nuclear programmes. And uranium can be minedF from many locations in the world outside the USA, including canada andO australia. Will you demand that those countries also get rid of their leaders ?u  M The USA should lead by examples. If it doesn't want others to use land mines,nN it should stop using land mines. If it doesn't want others to use bio weapons,K it should stop using them on its own people. (consider the possibility thatkK the Anthrax stuff was produced in the USA and used by an american citizen).dH and if it doesn't want others to develop nuclear weapons, it should stopN developping its own and trying to develop fancier weapons of mass destructions to protect itself.  F In the post gulf war, Irak's only crime is not fully complying with UNH resolutions. It has done nothing against the USA. And the non-complianceM doesn't means that it is building weapons of mass destruction. (it just meansm< that we can't verify if Irak is telling the truth or lying).  R > So, when someone makes it known that he'd like to see a bulldozer driven throughO > your front door, do you call the cops when you see a bulldozer being unloadeddO > from a trailer, by this someone, in front of your house, or do you wait untilu > it's leveled your house?  N The cops, upon arriving at the scene will not shoot the buldozer driver first.M They will first ask hims what he is doing.  He may then produce a contract toA0 dig a swimming pool in the neighbour's backyard.  L The USA at this stage, are only at the stage of calling the cops to complainL about a theoretical buldozer. The cops have seen no evidence of this becauseN the USA hasn't taken any pictures of the buldozer and faxed them to the cops. G Once once evidence is qcquired (by cops arriving on site to inspect the > situation) can the accusation be either confirmed are dropped.  K You will note that Bush Jr wanted canada's support for a war against Irak. eM Bush Jr met with Chrtien for less than 30 minutes during another function inlL detroit (an "unofficial" meeting). Chrtien revealed that Bush Jr wanted his+ support but could not produce any evidence.c  N Sorry, but if you have evidence you cannot produce, then you have no evidence.  M Consider that Bush Jr's hard stance against Irak had to be toned down becauseiN he not only had no international support, but he had internalional opposition.N So instead he had to resign himself to going to the UN and asking the UN to doM something. Yet, the minute the UN acheives a milestone (with Irak agreeing in J principle), the USA is quick to dismiss this as a lie instead of saying "a8 step in the right direction, but this isn't sufficient".    aP > In addition to self defense, ridding the world of such types makes the world aO > bit better.  It seems that the human race will just never learn what an idiot1 > Nevill Chamberlain was.   N I disagree. A country that involves itself into the affairs of another countryJ makes enemies. And enemies is what fuels terrorism. Terrorism happens whenL your own country doesn't defend your own interests. Tim McVeigh is a perfectN example. He felt his government didn't defend his interests and got really mad at his government.  H Let me ask you this: the USA is against other countries haveing militaryL training camps. Yet, the USA has not only miulitary training camps, but alsoI commercial "war games" training camps (with paint balls, laser guns etc). M While you may see those as "amusement parks", Irak could take the informationoN litterally and accuse the USA of allowing non-military training camps with war2 games and chemical weapons (paint is a chemical).   I So when the USA makes an accusation against another country, consider thetK possibility that the white house will spin information to its own advantage J and present it to the public in such a way to make things look the way the$ white house wants to make them look.  L The age of information is more than just computers. It is also how to formatL and distribute the information to achieve your goals. In the past, the wordsG "propaganda" and "brainwashing" may have been used. But now, it is morepM sophisticated.  Corporations use "creative accounting" to report non-existantVL profits, they use fancy accounting stuff to pay employees with stock optionsL instead of real salaries thus making their financials appear better. And the@ white house will spin information to support its own intentions.   oops, sorry if this was long.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:49:03 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.m, Message-ID: <3D8A3833.3E5CB576@videotron.ca>   John McLean wrote:J > George Bush is trying to act on matters that his father chose to ignore.   I would rephrase this as:   I Bush Jr is trying to act on matters his father decided it was in the besto$ interest of the world not to act on.  H Saddam is a moderate when it comes to religious stuff. You don't want anN islamic revolution in Irak. You really don't want one. And Saudi Arabia reallyL really really doesn't want an islamic revolution to happen next door because it would likely spill over.   M Saddam is a known entity. He may be rogue, and may need to be watched, but int- the end, he is the lesser of the other evils.    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2002 15:53:56 -0700% From: Vilmos Soti <vilmos@vilmos.org>L! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.s* Message-ID: <87lm5xsi9n.fsf@my.vilmos.lan>  1 Konstantin Klubnichkin <kostik@beenet.ru> writes:d  F > Just one point that americans miss everytime. Didn't you ever think = > *WHY* US is target? Not GB, not Germany, not Canada but US?.K > This is IMHO the main point. And misunderstanding that WHY is the reason s > of that terrible murder 9-11.s  H AFAIK, the guys also wanted to slam a plane into the British Parliament.@ Also, Ahmed Ressam, the guy who wanted to smuggle a trunkload of@ explosives into the US in December 2000, also contemplated about- blowing up Jewish neighbourhoods in Montreal.t   Vilmos   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:47:47 GMTp1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> ! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.h. Message-ID: <Teui9.519460$UU1.86319@sccrnsc03>  5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message@& news:3D89C0DF.6060708@tsoft-inc.com... > JF Mezei wrote:s >b > > David Froble wrote:s > >nH > >>Please tell me what you and the rest of the peaceniks and *LIBERALS* will be 2 > >>doing when Saddam comes knocking at your door. > >> > >fF > > The USA's beef about Saddam is about "weapons of mass destruction"	 (whatevers > > what that really means). > >aI > > Sept 11 happened without "weapons of mass destruction". They used boxh cutterstH > > available at Stapples, but a commerciel airline ticket and did their deeds. > K > While always looking for ulterior motives, what seems to be overlooked isl thetI > apparent 'unthinkableness' of airliners being flown into the WTC, untiln after it > happened.t  * Ever read Tom Clancy or Larry Bond, et al? >-K > Just what is so unthinkable about smuggling a nuclear device into NYC ande takingK > out the whole city?  It can happen.  The way the world is going, it's noti af > matter of 'if', but 'when'.r   NO argument here....   > H > Was it the people who didn't want to go after OBL and his organization prior toE > 9-11-2002 the ones that lost their lives?  No, it was just ordinaryo people.-I > Well, now it has been made very apparent to all but those who refuse to  seelH > reality that these people rejoice at the loss of American (USA) lives. ThesK > tapes showing OBL pleased at the loss of life, not just the symbolic blowS at the1 > WTC, makes it quite clear what their agenda is.S >EJ > It wasn't Montreal, JF, it was NYC.  The US is the target, do not try to make iteL > a world event.  As the target, I for one do not intent to sit idly waiting for J > some terrorist to take me out, or worse, those I care about and would be hurt* > more by their loss than by my own death. >-L > At this time the knowledge to make a nuclear device is rather public.  TheD > resources to do so are a bit more difficult to get.  Things may be different inJ > the future, but for now there is that small difficulty.  There have been= > documented incidences of Iraq trying to get such resources.t  G Last I heard Israel has 200, Iran 3, DPRK uncertain, India and Pakistan  maybe a dozen.  G Not too difficult to craft a one-stage (fission) bomb, Clancy made some'K deliberate mistakes in "Sum of all Fears." A two-stage built to those specsN would not work.'  L What's worrisome is Saddam trying to get aluminum tunes for centrifuges. One way of turning 235 into 238.     >cJ > So, when someone makes it known that he'd like to see a bulldozer driven througheF > your front door, do you call the cops when you see a bulldozer being unloadedI > from a trailer, by this someone, in front of your house, or do you waitV untilS > it's leveled your house? >cH > In addition to self defense, ridding the world of such types makes the world a I > bit better.  It seems that the human race will just never learn what ant idiott > Nevill Chamberlain was.l >r  L No disagreement. Apologies are fine when needed (eg the Kaplow Controversy), appeasement makes you a loser.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:54:06 GMT-1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>e! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.P. Message-ID: <Okui9.469522$me6.56231@sccrnsc01>  < "Konstantin Klubnichkin" <kostik@beenet.ru> wrote in message" news:3D89CAAB.3060906@beenet.ru... > David Froble wrote:b > <skipped>u >wL > > It wasn't Montreal, JF, it was NYC.  The US is the target, do not try toI > > make it a world event.  As the target, I for one do not intent to sit J > > idly waiting for some terrorist to take me out, or worse, those I careD > > about and would be hurt more by their loss than by my own death. >eE > Just one point that americans miss everytime. Didn't you ever think  > *WHY* US is target?>   Quite a bit, actually.  ' Not GB, not Germany, not Canada but US?>J > This is IMHO the main point. And misunderstanding that WHY is the reason > of that terrible murder 9-11.    One of them, yes.r   >n > >uI > > At this time the knowledge to make a nuclear device is rather public. J > > The resources to do so are a bit more difficult to get.  Things may beH > > different in the future, but for now there is that small difficulty.D > > There have been documented incidences of Iraq trying to get such
 resources. > >tL > > So, when someone makes it known that he'd like to see a bulldozer drivenJ > > through your front door, do you call the cops when you see a bulldozerK > > being unloaded from a trailer, by this someone, in front of your house,r1 > > or do you wait until it's leveled your house?t > >sH > Oh, call the cops? The better metaphora would be "blow out that f**ingG > trailer with Tamahawk when he is driving in your town", not "call theoL > cops". GWB doesn't want to call cops (UN security <dont know right word>).  K IF UN security is like many local US police forces, the damage is done long  before the cops show up.   >%J > > In addition to self defense, ridding the world of such types makes theK > > world a bit better.  It seems that the human race will just never learnI) > > what an idiot Nevill Chamberlain was.e > I > You know, "the better" is very subjective term. In russian we have nicec: > saying - "what is good for russian is death for german".H > And it is *very*very*dangerous* when one very powerfull country starts8 > to put it's "good/evel" patterns onto the whole world.  G As one who is aware of and very sorry about the 30 MILLION Russians whov@ perished in the Great Patriotic War, I understand your thinking.    
 And I supposeOJ > that it is dangerous primary for US, not for Iraq. They live in terribleE > conditions for years, so you just cant destroy them. They will liveeE > forever and will revenge US forever. You just CAN'T destroy IDEA byhD > weapon. Moreover the only way to stop terrorism is to make life ofH > people on this planet much better, not try to force them to something. >5  J Whether that would stop Islamic fundamentalism I don't know, but worldwideH access to food, water, shelter, medical attention, security, energy sure wouldn't hurt!   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:40:12 GMTq1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>r! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.c* Message-ID: <M7ui9.3394$gA4.172@sccrnsc02>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D896A0E.97941A6A@videotron.ca... > David Froble wrote:0H > > Please tell me what you and the rest of the peaceniks and *LIBERALS* will beR2 > > doing when Saddam comes knocking at your door. > D > The USA's beef about Saddam is about "weapons of mass destruction"	 (whatevere > what that really means).  B In the US vernacular. nukes, chemical warfare, biological warfare.   >oG > Sept 11 happened without "weapons of mass destruction". They used boxo cutters F > available at Stapples, but a commerciel airline ticket and did their deeds.   Yep.   >SJ > When Lybia was a foe, they sponsored some guy with a walkman and plasticI > explosives inside to bring down Pan Am 103. Not exactly weapons of massa destruction.  ( Other than to the PA 103 passengers. no.   >.L > Shiks extremists based in Canada brought down Air India and almost broughtJ > down a CP Air flight to Japan on the same day (flight landed early, bombA > exploded on the ground). Again, no weapons of mass destruction.a >zH > Yes, Saddam needs to be watched. But he is no immediate threath to the USA.J > Most of his infrastructure was destroyed a few years ago and during gulf war,$ > and it takes time to rebuild this.  L You are sure of this. Lord, I wish I was. And of cousrse, it depends on what+ infrastructure remained after Desert Storm.t     >lK > And it isn't by making the guy angry at the USA  that you will reduce then riskL > that he would decide to help some group to make terrorist acts against theC > USA.  Saddam is far more of a threat to his own people and to hisp
 neighboursI > than to the USA. Yet, the countries around Irak are not begging for the  USA toH > invade Irak, they are hoping the USA will show restraint and follow UN actions. >CJ > That alone shoudl get american citizens to wonder about the motives that thelD > USA government has to make this appear to be such an urgent issue. >  >,J > The USA has no business demanding the that the leader of another country beJ > changed. How would americans have felt if Germany had not recognized theF > selection of Bush Jr as head of state for the USA and demanded he be removedM  > and replaced by someone else ? >hI > "replaced by someone else" is the key here. The main reason this didn'tr happenF > during the Bush Sr era is simple: the replacements were likely to be islamiciG > revoluutionists friendly to Iran and that would have destabilised the  wholeAJ > region since they would have worked hard to "export" their philosophy to theE > key arab states around Irak.  I The Goal of Desert Storm I was NOT to take out Saddam. It was to kick his 9 butt out of Kuwait and minimize his warmaking capability.-  L We didn't WANT to take out Saddam. Consider the geopolitical implications of a leaderless Iraq.   >eJ > Considering that Bush Jr doesn't seem to want to tackle domestic issues, thesD > appearance that he wants to extend the war on terrorism as much as possible ishK > inevitable, especially since removing any debate about economy, enron etchE > until november will help his party for the congressional elections.   ; Could be, but he may be privy to info than we are. I dunno.l >hG > This has become even more evident now that Irak has agreed to let thec > inspectors in ,s   UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS????n  = but the USA continues its rethoric. It should simply say "ok, L > we give the UN 10 months, after which, if not satisfied, we use military".   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:01:31 GMTn1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> ! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.l* Message-ID: <Lrui9.3490$gA4.571@sccrnsc02>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D8A2AFE.273A7E31@videotron.ca... > David Froble wrote:oJ > > While always looking for ulterior motives, what seems to be overlooked is theK > > apparent 'unthinkableness' of airliners being flown into the WTC, untile after it
 > > happened.  >rL > It was revealed yesterday that the various US spy/secret/security services hadoK > been warned about the possibility of airliners being flown into sensitive B > facilities. Why do you think that nuclear reactors were built to
 widthstand* > the crash of a large airline into them ?  L Actually I don't think a 6 to 12 foot containment dome would defeat a B-747.  J But yeah, we've known for years of the threat. Dunnon why they don't buildE nuke plants underground, but my area of expertise is with fossil fuelo plants.t  L The WTC was designed to take a B-707, thr 757 and 767 are larger and contain lots more fuel.    >iI > > Just what is so unthinkable about smuggling a nuclear device into NYC 
 and takingI > > out the whole city?  It can happen.  The way the world is going, it's  not aC > > matter of 'if', but 'when'.e >sK > Suggest you look at the movie "Peacemaker" with Nicole Kidman and the guyt from ER. > J > A terrorist isn't going to wait for Irak to develop some primitive bomb, he'llhJ > go to the black market and buy existing materials/bombs. Note again that the K > USA reversed its accusation and admitted that Saddam doesn't have nuclearsG > weapons (are these different from "nukular ?) and it would take it att leasttF > one year to build one should he get access to the materials. That isK > tantamount to saying that Saddam found the page on the web that describesW hows > to make an A bomb. >tK > (Same applies to those primitive drawings found in Afghanistan which weret moreI > likely left there to scare the americans into thinking they were out tol builde > such bombs.) >iH > > tapes showing OBL pleased at the loss of life, not just the symbolic blow at thec3 > > WTC, makes it quite clear what their agenda is.e >oE > OBL != Saddam. Bin laden is nothing but a terrorist with an agenda.t	 Saddam is J > the lawful head of state of the country Irak, with membership in the UN. HeH > may not be well liked, he may not be well behaved, but he is a head of stateP2 > and as such deserves a basic diplomatic process. >gL > > It wasn't Montreal, JF, it was NYC.  The US is the target, do not try to make itd > > a world event. >iJ > Oh, how convenient. But on sept 11, the USA was very happy that it was a world G > event and instantly got support from so many nations, including Iran.  SorryiH > to rain on your parade, but just like the Titanic was not a "Canadian" event,K > the WTC is not a "USA" event. Its scale is such that it is will be in thel1 > history of the world, just like the Titanic is.i >eK > Note that for me, the WTC disaster is very separate from the issue of OBLo and E > terrorism. People don't remember the Titanic as a coward act of they shippingH > line to make the boat go faster even if they knew there were icebergs, theyJ > remember the human suffering, lack of safety boats stranding many on theK > sinking ship etc etc. And the movie by Cameron was able to show the scalee of > this disaster. > K > Similarly, to me, the WTC is symbolic of a disaster of human proportions.  IhK > do not think of the terrorist pilots as the planes impact, I think of theoE > people in those offices, seing a plane come to them. I think of the 
 passengersI > in the planes, and I think of the folks stranded above the impact zone.e Thoseh1 > who jumped. And those who witnessed the horror.y >eG > On Sept 11 2002, the CBC in canada ran a documentary on how the medianK > acted/reacted on spet 11. And they interviewed the editor of the new yorkaI > daily news. He showed the pictures he had selected for the sept 12 2001l issue.J > One was a severed hand on the ground next to debris. The editor said "we= > decided to tell it like it was and not try to sanitize it".w >dJ > The fact that a photographer was able to see such a bodypart means to me thatI > this was not an isolated event and that plenty of people witnesses suchhI > horror, and plenty were traumatized by the event.  The dead may rest inv peace, > but the survivors won't. > J > And to me, the human aspect of the WTC disaster is far too important and theoG > terrorists do not deserve much mention, even if they are responsible.s >s >yC > And Irak has nothing to do with Sept 11. About the only ties witht	 terrorism I > that were said to exist is Irak paying money to families of palestinainuJ > suicide bombers, and even that, I am not certain they come from the same% > Saddam Hussein who is head of Irak.e >SI > Consider the following scenario: Country X with a beef against Irak andcK > Palestine finds a guy named "Saddam Hussein" and gets him to sign chequesb heI > then sends to the families of the suicide bombers in palestine.  Israel  thenL > invades palestine, finds those cheques and claims it has irrevocable proof> > that Irak's Saddam Hussein helps the palestinian terrorists. > C > >  As the target, I for one do not intent to sit idly waiting forhL > > some terrorist to take me out, or worse, those I care about and would be hurt, > > more by their loss than by my own death. >pG > As a "target" you should first wonder why you are a target instead ofo shootingJ > left and right , accusing everyone that is convenient to accuse. Current BushJ > Jr tactics not only have no intl support, but more importantly, add fuel ando< > determination to existing anger against the USA in certainE > cultures/subcultures. The bigger the anger, the more determined thes
 terrorists8 > become, and the easier it is for them to recruit more. > D > Taliban and OBL were helped by the USA to throw the Soviets out ofE > Afghanistan. You'd think that OBL would have struck back at Russia,f perhaps K > destroying red square or something. Why not ? Because in the middle east, J > there isn't much anger/feelings against Russia. The anger is directed at the-L > USA because the USA has middle east policies  that are despised by many inJ > middle east. It has nothing to do with the monetary success and power of thejL > USA. It has everything to do with how this power is used by the USA in the > middle east. > L > > the future, but for now there is that small difficulty.  There have been? > > documented incidences of Iraq trying to get such resources.e >nL > Got news for you. Same applies to the USA, Russia, India, Pakistan, Israel etcvH > who have publicly acknowledged nuclear programs. And countries such as Canada,eH > France, UK also have developped nuclear programmes. And uranium can be mineddH > from many locations in the world outside the USA, including canada andG > australia. Will you demand that those countries also get rid of theirr	 leaders ?k >eH > The USA should lead by examples. If it doesn't want others to use land mines,G > it should stop using land mines. If it doesn't want others to use bior weapons,H > it should stop using them on its own people. (consider the possibility thatC > the Anthrax stuff was produced in the USA and used by an americans	 citizen).nJ > and if it doesn't want others to develop nuclear weapons, it should stopC > developping its own and trying to develop fancier weapons of massa destructions > to protect itself. >nH > In the post gulf war, Irak's only crime is not fully complying with UNJ > resolutions. It has done nothing against the USA. And the non-complianceI > doesn't means that it is building weapons of mass destruction. (it justa meanse> > that we can't verify if Irak is telling the truth or lying). >eL > > So, when someone makes it known that he'd like to see a bulldozer driven through H > > your front door, do you call the cops when you see a bulldozer being unloadedK > > from a trailer, by this someone, in front of your house, or do you waits untilp > > it's leveled your house? >aI > The cops, upon arriving at the scene will not shoot the buldozer driver  first.L > They will first ask hims what he is doing.  He may then produce a contract to2 > dig a swimming pool in the neighbour's backyard. >lE > The USA at this stage, are only at the stage of calling the cops tos complainF > about a theoretical buldozer. The cops have seen no evidence of this because I > the USA hasn't taken any pictures of the buldozer and faxed them to the  cops.tI > Once once evidence is qcquired (by cops arriving on site to inspect ther@ > situation) can the accusation be either confirmed are dropped. >eL > You will note that Bush Jr wanted canada's support for a war against Irak.L > Bush Jr met with Chrtien for less than 30 minutes during another function inJ > detroit (an "unofficial" meeting). Chrtien revealed that Bush Jr wanted hise- > support but could not produce any evidence.a >sF > Sorry, but if you have evidence you cannot produce, then you have no	 evidence.n >tG > Consider that Bush Jr's hard stance against Irak had to be toned downy becauseqD > he not only had no international support, but he had internalional opposition.wJ > So instead he had to resign himself to going to the UN and asking the UN to do L > something. Yet, the minute the UN acheives a milestone (with Irak agreeing inL > principle), the USA is quick to dismiss this as a lie instead of saying "a: > step in the right direction, but this isn't sufficient". >a >rJ > > In addition to self defense, ridding the world of such types makes the world ahK > > bit better.  It seems that the human race will just never learn what ans idiotS > > Nevill Chamberlain was.  >iH > I disagree. A country that involves itself into the affairs of another country L > makes enemies. And enemies is what fuels terrorism. Terrorism happens whenF > your own country doesn't defend your own interests. Tim McVeigh is a perfectlL > example. He felt his government didn't defend his interests and got really madt > at his government. > J > Let me ask you this: the USA is against other countries haveing militaryI > training camps. Yet, the USA has not only miulitary training camps, but  alsoK > commercial "war games" training camps (with paint balls, laser guns etc). C > While you may see those as "amusement parks", Irak could take thek information L > litterally and accuse the USA of allowing non-military training camps with war 3 > games and chemical weapons (paint is a chemical).o >UK > So when the USA makes an accusation against another country, consider theiC > possibility that the white house will spin information to its ownu	 advantageoL > and present it to the public in such a way to make things look the way the& > white house wants to make them look. > G > The age of information is more than just computers. It is also how to  formatH > and distribute the information to achieve your goals. In the past, the wordsoI > "propaganda" and "brainwashing" may have been used. But now, it is moreeB > sophisticated.  Corporations use "creative accounting" to report non-existantF > profits, they use fancy accounting stuff to pay employees with stock optionssJ > instead of real salaries thus making their financials appear better. And theeB > white house will spin information to support its own intentions. >t > oops, sorry if this was long.t  I And a final thought: imagine a fully-loaded liquified natiural gas tankertK blowing up in Boston or NYC or Philly or Oakland or San Diego or Galveston,iG etc. Do the math on a BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion).s   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:19:14 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>n! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N. . Message-ID: <mIui9.469641$me6.56040@sccrnsc01>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:994joukn266hq37rajau3s04us5ktg73dn@4ax.com...6 > On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 19:43:34 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"! > <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:e >l >eL > >clue one way or the other. Having read the works of Gertz, I have a hunch7 > >that there are some pictures or something somewhere.t > >rE > >Whatever, not a very convincing job. Have to wait and see what the  British1( > >Cousins produce on the 24th, I guess. > D > Not too long before the gulf war, Iraq publicly executed a BritishG > journalist claiming he was a spy for MI6.  Last year the Sunday TimesdA > claimed he *was* spying on a secret Iraqi underground test of aiF > primitive atomic bomb. The Sunday Times futher claimed that both theG > UK and the USA are fully aware of this functional test that far back.B > Who knows... >P  L It would be interesting to have a forum to discuss all this stuff in! But ifH Iraq conducted a fully functional subsurface nuke test, seismology would= have picked it up. Other technology works well for airbursts.      > Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:27:31 GMTs* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.oB Message-ID: <7Qui9.146262$z91.6054158@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  2 "Vilmos Soti" <vilmos@vilmos.org> wrote in message$ news:87lm5xsi9n.fsf@my.vilmos.lan...3 > Konstantin Klubnichkin <kostik@beenet.ru> writes:a >eG > > Just one point that americans miss everytime. Didn't you ever thinkm? > > *WHY* US is target? Not GB, not Germany, not Canada but US?hL > > This is IMHO the main point. And misunderstanding that WHY is the reason! > > of that terrible murder 9-11.i >rJ > AFAIK, the guys also wanted to slam a plane into the British Parliament.  J Well, given Tony Blair's uncritical support for the U.S., it's not exactlyF difficult to understand why that thought may have crossed their minds.H Though you will note that when it came down to actually allocating theirK resources, they passed that goal up in favor of striking where they felt ity most important.d  B > Also, Ahmed Ressam, the guy who wanted to smuggle a trunkload ofB > explosives into the US in December 2000, also contemplated about/ > blowing up Jewish neighbourhoods in Montreal.e  C Unlike states (or at least unlike the way states *should* operate),oL terrorists or freedom fighters, whichever you may consider them to be, don'tJ have institutions that at least have the potential to focus their actions.L So while Canada isn't the uncritical U.S. supporter that England is, blowingJ up Jews in a major North American city isn't all that hard to see as beingJ potentially attractive - though, again, you'll note that when it came timeA to actually *do* something, they passed it up for the main event.   L At least I think that addresses the points you seemed to be trying to make -I that the U.S. was not the *only* potential target (even though it was the L only actual one).  Had Parliament or Jews in Montreal in fact been hit, then= considering "Why?" would have been appropriate there as well.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:36:31 -0400g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.c, Message-ID: <3D8A89A4.22DECA78@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:rN > The WTC was designed to take a B-707, thr 757 and 767 are larger and contain > lots more fuel.r  H The 767 contains roughly as much fuel as the 707. However, the engineersK admitted that they had not taken into consideration the fuel as a source ofe5 heat/fire, only the mechanical aspects of the impact.i  K > And a final thought: imagine a fully-loaded liquified natiural gas tankerrM > blowing up in Boston or NYC or Philly or Oakland or San Diego or Galveston,iI > etc. Do the math on a BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion).i  L Do a search on the Halifax Fire many decades ago. Perhaps not quite the same/ scale as what you describe, but same principle.S   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 02:37:29 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>t! Subject: Re: Mr. Bush at the U.N.e& Message-ID: <3D8A8F85.CE1F8DE@fsi.net>   JF Mezei wrote:u >  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:aP > > The WTC was designed to take a B-707, thr 757 and 767 are larger and contain > > lots more fuel.. > J > The 767 contains roughly as much fuel as the 707. However, the engineersM > admitted that they had not taken into consideration the fuel as a source of 7 > heat/fire, only the mechanical aspects of the impact.s > M > > And a final thought: imagine a fully-loaded liquified natiural gas tanker O > > blowing up in Boston or NYC or Philly or Oakland or San Diego or Galveston,tK > > etc. Do the math on a BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion).n > N > Do a search on the Halifax Fire many decades ago. Perhaps not quite the same1 > scale as what you describe, but same principle.'  H I remember reading a survivor story about someone who dashed into one ofD the towers after the aircraft hit. He said that fire issued from theH elevator shafts at the ground the floor even. Even burning Jet fuel will flow downwards.u   -- I David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:22:55 GMTn From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG'2 Subject: Re: OpenVms on Alpha with a PoweWare UPS.0 Message-ID: <00A14370.8262620A@SendSpamHere.ORG>  n In article <oIli9.59588$8b1.39256@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >d8 >"Steve Reiner" <sreiner@bellsouth.net> wrote in message> >news:iRki9.107955$AY5.42003731@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
 >> Hi Martin:. >>{...snip...}M >> We've had it installed (now on OpenVMS v7.3) for about two years now.   ItSF >> was a little klunky to get up and going, but does appear to work asK >> advertised.   There was an issue with the serial cabling, and as another F >> person mentioned, it did take a while to get that straightened out. >s > K >10 minutes with a breakout box would have solved the serial communicationsu >cable riddle.  K Not necessarily.  If one was expecting normal TxD and RxD signals, figuring I out the pinout might be deleterious to the operation of the system and/oreJ the UPS, especially if the systems is plugged into the UPS at the time the trial cable is connected.a   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" d   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:25:19 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGl Subject: Re: OpenVMS SIG0 Message-ID: <00A14370.D82AE600@SendSpamHere.ORG>  b In article <amcqri$hn1$1@web1.cup.hp.com>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> writes: >Dear Newsgroup, >iJ >Just so you know Encompass has restarted the OpenVMS SIG.  Dave Cathey is >the SIG Chair.h >i- > To join the VMS SIG you need to register ona5 >http://www.encompassus.org/community/sigs/index.htmlu  L Is joining the mailing list akin to registering to be an OpenVMS SIG member?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi            f5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" d   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Sep 2002 21:09:54 GMT5 From: koehler@bessta.gsfc.nasa.aspm.gov (Bob Koehler)s Subject: Re: OpenVMS SIG/ Message-ID: <amdef2$675$2@skates.gsfc.nasa.gov>   P In article <00A14370.D82AE600@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:c >In article <amcqri$hn1$1@web1.cup.hp.com>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> writes:l >>Dear Newsgroup,  >>K >>Just so you know Encompass has restarted the OpenVMS SIG.  Dave Cathey iss >>the SIG Chair. >>. >> To join the VMS SIG you need to register on6 >>http://www.encompassus.org/community/sigs/index.html >iM >Is joining the mailing list akin to registering to be an OpenVMS SIG member?a  G    I think I joined the SIG first and the mailing list came out later. tF    In this case the sign up claims "for members in good standing", but<    in at least one case that includes non-paying associates.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------? Bob Koehler                     | Computer Sciences Corporationi= NASA GSFC Flight Software       | Federal Sector, Civil GroupaE speaking for no one else        | please remove ".aspm" when replyingh   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 21:12:40 GMTV From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGn Subject: Re: OpenVMS SIG0 Message-ID: <00A14388.39157DEE@SendSpamHere.ORG>  g In article <amdef2$675$2@skates.gsfc.nasa.gov>, koehler@bessta.gsfc.nasa.aspm.gov (Bob Koehler) writes:n >nQ >In article <00A14370.D82AE600@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:,d >>In article <amcqri$hn1$1@web1.cup.hp.com>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> writes: >>>Dear Newsgroup, >>>3L >>>Just so you know Encompass has restarted the OpenVMS SIG.  Dave Cathey is >>>the SIG Chair.h >>>s/ >>> To join the VMS SIG you need to register on 7 >>>http://www.encompassus.org/community/sigs/index.htmlc >>N >>Is joining the mailing list akin to registering to be an OpenVMS SIG member? >wH >   I think I joined the SIG first and the mailing list came out later. G >   In this case the sign up claims "for members in good standing", buto= >   in at least one case that includes non-paying associates.t  D Well, the question is, where do I sign up for the SIG?  The web pageE mentions as a link to join the mailing list but there's nothing abouto simply becoming a SIG member.-   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMg            R5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" y   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:46:27 -0400t5 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com>e3 Subject: Oracle Rdb Release  7.0.6.5 (aka V7.0-65).n* Message-ID: <amd9jl$pb5$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  J We are pleased to announce the release of Oracle Rdb Release  7.0.6.5 (aka+ V7.0-65). The kit is available on Metalink.a  3 Software Errors Fixed in Oracle Rdb Release 7.0.6.5s  3 ---------------------------------------------------s    2 Software Errors Fixed That Apply to All Interfaces  2 - OR With Constant Predicate Returns Wrong Results  8 - LRS Uses Too Much CPU in 7.0.6.2, 7.0.6.3, and 7.0.6.4  ) - RDB-E-BAD_REQ_HANDLE in Stored Function"  ? - Another OR With Two Constant Predicates Returns Wrong Resultss  = - Another Query With Same Column in Two Clauses Returns Wronge   Results.  ) - Substring Function Returns INVSUBSTRLEN@  < - %SYSTEM-F-ILLEGAL_SHADOW, Illegal Formed Trap Shadow Error  1 - AIJBL_START_FLG Not Always Set Correctly in AIJ   3 - Bugcheck at AIJUTL$FORMAT_ARBS When Performing anS   RMU/BACKUP/AFTER  ; - Query With EXISTS Clause Using Hashed Index Returns Wronga   Resultsn  = - Left Outer Join Query with UNION Legs Returns Wrong Results   9 - Performance of Self-Referencing Foreign Key Constraintso  ! - Bugchecks at PSII2SCANRESETSCANi  8 - Bugcheck at RDMS$$COMPILE_FOR_IF for Aggregate Queries  ; - NOT NULL Test in Outer Join Query With UNION Legs Returnsw  
 Wrong Resultsv   SQL Errors Fixed  > - CASE Expression Causes SQL Bugcheck @ SQL$$BLR_MSG_FIELD_REF   + 1E8   6 - %SQL-F-INVFUNREF on Subquery of SELECT With GROUP BY  3 - Unexpected INVALID_BLR Error During CREATE MODULEg  ? - Unexpected NODBKDRVTBL Error When Fetching DBKEY From a Table    Oracle RMU Errors Fixede  = - RMU/RESTORE/CDD Was Failing to Integrate Root File into CDD   ; - RMU/RECOVER Exit Status Does Not Indicate That a Recovery    Failed  2 - Cannot Resolve 2PC Transaction After RMU/RECOVER  8 - RMU/BACKUP/AFTER/NOQUIET Bugchecks at KODBND$BUILD_AWL  
 + 0000006C    RMU Show Statistics Errors Fixed  ? - RMU/SHOW STATISTICS Does Not Update Counters When a /TIME=-NNe   is Usede  ; - RMU/SHOW STATISTICS/CLUSTER Not Generating OPCOM Messagese   Consistently  ) - Stall Message Descriptions Generated By   * RMU/SHOW STATISTICS/STALL_LOG Inconsistent   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2002 12:49:14 -07001 From: glenmark@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Glen Martin)r/ Subject: Re: QUEUE MANAGER dying during backups = Message-ID: <6e2f14f4.0209191149.7abb0090@posting.google.com>b  _ "Guruprasad T.S." <guruts@india.hp.com> wrote in message news:<amc6ba$7dj$1@web1.cup.hp.com>...e= > Me trying to catch up with VMS after many years. So, pardono> > me if this appears silly.. But, what would happen if you set= > the journal file to 'nobackup' and try.. That would confirm ; > that the backup process is indeed locking up the file?...e  , I'm not sure that that would help, since theC SYS$QUEUE_MANAGER.QMAN$JOURNAL file is deleted and recreated rather C often. Wouldn't the /NOBACKUP file attribute go away the first time  that happened?  < Still not sure why this started happening or how to stop it.   Glen   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:52:44 -0400i* From: Bob Supnik <bsupnik@nauticusnet.com>0 Subject: Re: SIMH 2.9-11: bug in tape simulation8 Message-ID: <3f3kouo9d2vuema6e4tdo1h3pq8b67vfcp@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:23:56 -0400, John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote:a  ' >On Thu, 19 Sep 2002, Bob Supnik wrote: ; <snip summary>Bug in TS11 simulator; double listing of tapec directories on TMSCP tapes.s >rE >I have seen this weird double-listing problem in directory when youreG >default device is a search list.  I'm not sure it happens when you areC1 >directorying a tape, but I think I have seen it.a >fD >Normally, your default directory is only a search list when you areE >logged into SYSTEM.  Regular user accounts usually don't have search4% >lists for their default directories.r >a >Are you logged into SYSTEM? >.E >BTW, if this is the case, it is probably a bug in RMS rather than inKD >DIRECTORY.  It might be documented in some obscure place, making it
 >a "feature."n <snip>@ I traced the TS11/TSV05 bug to failure to properly implement theE "MOTION" bit in extended status register 0.  All of the documentationoC lists "MOTION" as an error bit indicating some sort of problem; thewA VMS and RSX drivers make it clear that "MOTION" is a <status> bit E indicating that the just completed command changed the tape position. D The VMS driver depends on this to clear an internal indicator of BOT and TMK.  D Yes, I am logged in to SYSTEM.  Could this really be a feature?  HowA would I turn off search lists and prove that the simulator is ok?h   /Bob   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:38:19 -0400   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>0 Subject: Re: SIMH 2.9-11: bug in tape simulation5 Message-ID: <1020919143411.1922A-100000@Ives.egh.com>t  & On Thu, 19 Sep 2002, Bob Supnik wrote:  G > On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:23:56 -0400, John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote:e > ) > >On Thu, 19 Sep 2002, Bob Supnik wrote:o= > <snip summary>Bug in TS11 simulator; double listing of tapee > directories on TMSCP tapes.  > >gG > >I have seen this weird double-listing problem in directory when yournI > >default device is a search list.  I'm not sure it happens when you arer3 > >directorying a tape, but I think I have seen it.  > >aF > >Normally, your default directory is only a search list when you areG > >logged into SYSTEM.  Regular user accounts usually don't have searchs' > >lists for their default directories.r > >d > >Are you logged into SYSTEM? > >iG > >BTW, if this is the case, it is probably a bug in RMS rather than intF > >DIRECTORY.  It might be documented in some obscure place, making it > >a "feature."m > <snip>B > I traced the TS11/TSV05 bug to failure to properly implement theG > "MOTION" bit in extended status register 0.  All of the documentationeE > lists "MOTION" as an error bit indicating some sort of problem; the"C > VMS and RSX drivers make it clear that "MOTION" is a <status> bityG > indicating that the just completed command changed the tape position.vF > The VMS driver depends on this to clear an internal indicator of BOT
 > and TMK. > F > Yes, I am logged in to SYSTEM.  Could this really be a feature?  HowC > would I turn off search lists and prove that the simulator is ok?f >  > /Bob  > You can "$ set default dka600:[sys0.sysmgr]" or similar (where? DKA600: is the real physical disk name of the system disk, or aU? logical name that points to it.)  This won't be quite right fore? the SYSTEM account, but will point to most of its files.  Don'tp@ change it permanently (in AUTHORIZE or by doing a SET DEFAULT in@ [SYSMGR]LOGIN.COM), but it should be fine to do it interactively for testing.   --   John Santosr Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:10:00 -0600  From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>e0 Subject: Re: SIMH 2.9-11: bug in tape simulation& Message-ID: <3D8A2F18.4040509@srv.net>   John Santos wrote:( > On Thu, 19 Sep 2002, Bob Supnik wrote: >  > F >>There is a bug in the TS11/TSV05 tape simulator that seems to affect? >>only VMS.  The symptom is that VMS can initialize and mount aLC >>simulated tape, and copy data to it, but DIR shows the tape to be  >>empty. >>' >>The detailed analysis goes like this.  >>D >>1. For INIT, VMS writes three 80B records of tape header, two tapeH >>marks, and then two 80B records representing an empty file header, and >>two more tape marks.F >>2. The COPY command rewinds the tape, reads the tape header, rewindsE >>the tape, reads the tape header again, spaces across the empty fileLH >>header, backspaces one record, and starts writing.  Since this is pastG >>the double tape mark at the end of the tape header (it is between thetG >>tape marks at the end of the empty file header), the DIR command seesmF >>the double tape mark at the end of the tape header as logical end of >>tape.lE >>3. In contrast, with a TMSCP tape (implemented in SIMH 2.10), after H >>spacing across the empty file header, the COPY command backspaces fourB >>tape marks (which is really BOT), spaces forward one record, and9 >>starts writing, thus rewriting part of the tape header.dB >>4. Unfortunately, while the TMSCP tape looks correct, when a DIRH >>command is given, the tape is read TWICE, and each file is read twice. >  > F > I have seen this weird double-listing problem in directory when yourH > default device is a search list.  I'm not sure it happens when you are2 > directorying a tape, but I think I have seen it. > E > Normally, your default directory is only a search list when you areeF > logged into SYSTEM.  Regular user accounts usually don't have search& > lists for their default directories.  @ I'd doubt that this is the problem with the tape drive, since it@ is probably being referenced using something like 'dir mka500:',% which would bypass any such logicals.t  ? I've done directories on real VMS tapes this way and have nevera< seen a double directory, unless they actually put two copies? of the files on the tape (which they sometimes did with install : tapes). This was done so that you could run VMSINSTAL, and: not have to wait through a rewind between scanning kits on@ the tape and the actual install.  WordPerfect always distributed their tapes this way.r  ; I'd guess that the 'rewind' command that the tape is seeingw= after finishing the first listing is returning something odd,a9 causing VMS to think there is another tape there to list,e/ or that is isn't really at the end of the tape.i4 Maybe it thinks there is an autoloader on the drive.< That wouldn't explain why it only does one extra listing and$ not an infinite loop of them though.   > Are you logged into SYSTEM?  > F > BTW, if this is the case, it is probably a bug in RMS rather than inE > DIRECTORY.  It might be documented in some obscure place, making ito > a "feature." > C > The issue with TS11/TSV05 may be where the driver leaves the tapee@ > positioned after encountering the double tape-mark.  I seem to= > recall that VMS drivers (or maybe some hardware I have onlyw? > encountered on VMS) backspaces to position itself between the D > two EOTs.  I had to hack around this somehow to get you positionedB > after the 2nd EOT when emulating RSTS/E tape handling in ROSS/V. >  > < >>So there are clearly bugs in both the TS11/TSV05 and TMSCPD >>simulations, which will take a while to trace down.  If anyone canG >>shed light on the interaction between COPY, RMS, the magtape ACP, and-" >>the driver, it would be welcome. >>
 >>/Bob Supnikr >> >> >  >    ------------------------------   Date: 19 Sep 2002 21:05:19 GMT5 From: koehler@bessta.gsfc.nasa.aspm.gov (Bob Koehler)e0 Subject: Re: SIMH 2.9-11: bug in tape simulation/ Message-ID: <amde6f$675$1@skates.gsfc.nasa.gov>w  H In article <3D8A2F18.4040509@srv.net>, Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> writes:   >dA >I'd doubt that this is the problem with the tape drive, since itnA >is probably being referenced using something like 'dir mka500:', & >which would bypass any such logicals.  H    The double directory listing is not a bug with the tape drive.  This 8    is a _known_ bug in VMS.  It's been around for years.  G    If your default directory is a search list and you do a directory onrF    a tape drive, that directory will be repeated for each entry in the    search list.  -  K    VMS engineering said this is deep in the file system but they might fix i@    it "some day."  Right now they have much better things to do.  H    The well known work around is to set default to something that is not4    a search list before doing a directory on a tape.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:58:14 -0600a From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> 0 Subject: Re: SIMH 2.9-11: bug in tape simulation& Message-ID: <3D8A5686.6030804@srv.net>   Bob Koehler wrote:J > In article <3D8A2F18.4040509@srv.net>, Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> writes: >  > B >>I'd doubt that this is the problem with the tape drive, since itB >>is probably being referenced using something like 'dir mka500:',' >>which would bypass any such logicals.c >  > J >    The double directory listing is not a bug with the tape drive.  This : >    is a _known_ bug in VMS.  It's been around for years. > I >    If your default directory is a search list and you do a directory ontH >    a tape drive, that directory will be repeated for each entry in the >    search list.    > M >    VMS engineering said this is deep in the file system but they might fix  B >    it "some day."  Right now they have much better things to do. > J >    The well known work around is to set default to something that is not6 >    a search list before doing a directory on a tape.  ; Very strange. Don't know why I was never bitten by this oneB@ then.  Maybe using the wrong version when I did it, 5.5-<mumble>@ mostly. This was on various MicroVax II's and 3100's with TK50's( and TZ30's. Maybe they just liked me ;-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:58:32 -0600s From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> 0 Subject: Re: SIMH 2.9-11: bug in tape simulation$ Message-ID: <qssi9.634$b_1.242@fe01>   Bob Koehler wrote:J > In article <3D8A2F18.4040509@srv.net>, Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> writes: >  > B >>I'd doubt that this is the problem with the tape drive, since itB >>is probably being referenced using something like 'dir mka500:',' >>which would bypass any such logicals.s >  > J >    The double directory listing is not a bug with the tape drive.  This : >    is a _known_ bug in VMS.  It's been around for years. > I >    If your default directory is a search list and you do a directory onlH >    a tape drive, that directory will be repeated for each entry in the >    search list.  e > M >    VMS engineering said this is deep in the file system but they might fix kB >    it "some day."  Right now they have much better things to do. > J >    The well known work around is to set default to something that is not6 >    a search list before doing a directory on a tape.  ; Very strange. Don't know why I was never bitten by this one @ then.  Maybe using the wrong version when I did it, 5.5-<mumble>@ mostly. This was on various MicroVax II's and 3100's with TK50's( and TZ30's. Maybe they just liked me ;-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:12:32 GMTo1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>n( Subject: Re: So help me understand herE.* Message-ID: <4Cui9.3544$gA4.581@sccrnsc02>  4 "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message4 news:%jbi9.7170$_S6.1249249@news20.bellglobal.com...D > If you only read the computer industry rags (those newspapers that everyoneK > has delivered to their desks) you'd swear that the only operating systemsa inI > the world were Windows and many flavors of UNIX including AIX, Solaris,n and  > LINUX.  H Ummm, yep. Believe it or not there were a dozen DEC-specific rags in the early to mid 80s!e   >TI > The truth of the matter is that there are many more out there includingt
 > OpenVMS.  E Trade rags generally cover those products from which they generate adoL revenue. The concept of a firewall between advertising and editorial is pure codswallop.o    B In the case of OpenVMS, I am personally aware of installations at: >x/ > 1. Canadian nuclear power generating stationsi4 > 2. Canadian government controlled lottery networks  > 3. medical insurance companiesJ > 4. Canadian hospitals (where OpenVMS is used with another product called > MAGIC)2 > 5. Canadian telecommunications (phone) companies > ; > Or to be more general, systems that need to be up 24x365.n >tL > p.s. About a year ago, I heard from a Compaq field service tech that IntelH > was still running OpenVMS on VAX's (VAX-11/780 I think) to manufactureK > Pentiums. I guess even Intel can't chance "the blue screen of death" wheng+ > cooking up a batch of  P4 processors. :-)n >o > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,, > Ontario, Canada.# > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ 8 > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/vms_vs_unix.html >r >w >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:20:18 -0400v' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>e( Subject: RE: So help me understand herE.T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660A22@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Neil,   E Re: OpenVMS Customers .. Only a small snapshot: (long urls will wrap)t0 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/: http://www.synergex.com/News_and_Events/news/pr02/dabs.htmJ http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=3Dmarketsquote99_news.ht&s=3DAPSGc= ha	 yTm9ydGgga= http://www.tse.com/en/mediaNews/newsreleases/news2265.html=20r8 http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2002/pr2002040805.html  0 And for some recent "HP formatted" testimonials:  H http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/commerzbank/commerzbank.G pdf (testimonial for multi-site disaster tolerant clusters during 9/11)n  C http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/indiarr/indiarr.pdfo6 (fault tolerant OpenVMS solution VAX to Alpha content)  E http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/nz_steel/nz_steel.pdfv& (mission critical steel manufacturing)  H http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/southeastern/southeasterD n_freight.pdf (mission critical OpenVMS and transportation industry)  C Of course, OS's that are not hacked into or not making headlines byKH being plagued with the "virus-of-the-day" are boring and do not make for good headlines.   B They do make for great platforms for running your business though.   :-)a   Regardss  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantr Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Servicesd Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----1 From: Neil Rieck [mailto:n.rieck@sympatico.ca]=20n! Sent: September 18, 2002 11:16 PMi To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ( Subject: Re: So help me understand herE.    B If you only read the computer industry rags (those newspapers that@ everyone has delivered to their desks) you'd swear that the onlyD operating systems in the world were Windows and many flavors of UNIX" including AIX, Solaris, and LINUX.  G The truth of the matter is that there are many more out there includinggG OpenVMS. In the case of OpenVMS, I am personally aware of installationsd at:e  - 1. Canadian nuclear power generating stationsh2 2. Canadian government controlled lottery networks 3. medical insurance companiesH 4. Canadian hospitals (where OpenVMS is used with another product called MAGIC)0 5. Canadian telecommunications (phone) companies  9 Or to be more general, systems that need to be up 24x365.r  D p.s. About a year ago, I heard from a Compaq field service tech that@ Intel was still running OpenVMS on VAX's (VAX-11/780 I think) toF manufacture Pentiums. I guess even Intel can't chance "the blue screen8 of death" when cooking up a batch of  P4 processors. :-)  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,t Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/t6 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/vms_vs_unix.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 02:00:33 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 8 Subject: Storing username/password for external services, Message-ID: <3D8AB97D.87FFFD55@videotron.ca>  J I currently have a POP client that interfaces to Message router. It has anM indexed file which contains information on my various POP accounts on varioustL servers as well as the message router destination for mail picked up there.     F However, I know that in the long term, I will have to migrate this off- message-router/all-in-1 probably to VMS mail.e  K In doing so, I would like to make something that can be used by others. And M for this, I would want some sort of account information/password storage thatl would be acceptable.  K If I kept a single file to store account information for all users who want N their pop mail transfered automativally from remote systems to the VMS system,N would this be totally unacceptable ? If the file were owned by the UIC runningN the POP software with no access by anyone else, except one utility that allowsM a user to register/modify his profile (such a utility woudl ensure a user cani4 only see his own record), would that be acceptable ?  M In a central file concept, would some simple 2 way encryption of the password L be required ? Or is keeping the file secure sufficient without requiring its contents to be encrypted ?  L Or would the only solution to have the central file contain only the list ofK users, and then have each user have some control file in his SYS$%LOGIN anda* that file would contain the account info ?   Any other paradigm ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:59:34 GMTi? From: "John Gemignani, Jr." <Firstname.Lastname@you-know.where>g1 Subject: Re: TCPIP 5.3: QIO IO$_ACPCONTROL bugletg. Message-ID: <3D89F1BE.4130655E@you-know.where>   JF Mezei wrote:a >  > "John Gemignani, Jr." wrote:H > > The reason is that the ACPCONTROL $QIO FDT routine uses the standardC > > ACP$MODIFY routine to package the IRP with P1-P5 similar to the I > > IO$_MODIFY parameter set.  In this case P2 would be the address of an / > > INPUT file name, but the ACP requires that:t > >oB > >          "... all areas of memory specified by the descriptors: > >          must be capable of being read or written to." > O > In this case, shouldn't the documentation specify that the P2 parameter is tom& > be read/write instead of read only ?  G Well, yes and no.  P2 should be documented as read only (we don't writeiE information back at all), but all parameters should be documented aladD the ACP (my quote from the manuals above), and in somewhat noticibleH form.  I found this problem with the ACP about 15 years ago and ended upC going through the sources to find out what was going on.  It wasn'to9 until later that I found the reference in the I/O manual.f  H I am walking over to the writer right now to be sure that it gets in the TCPIP V5.4 doc set.i   -John    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:18:39 -0400a+ From: "Martin O'Connor" <moconnor@dvfs.com>p Subject: Upgrade to VMS 7.3-1O5 Message-ID: <amdbec$50hq0$1@ID-118202.news.dfncis.de>   5 This past weekend we upgraded from VMS 7.2-1 to 7.3-1-  F The first thing I noticed was that we were using about 30% to 40% moreF memory. With all the other things going on I put that aside until thisJ morning. A little digging showed that this is the memory used by the EXEC.H Some spot checking on nightly processing indicated that we have improvedC performance by about 20% (clock time). My boss was pleased with the"B information especially since we did nothing but upgrade to get the2 improvements (that is not spending any money :) ).  K We are now running at about 70% to 80% memory utilization (a little tight).,K I plan to monitor EXEC and adjust it if necessary since I noticed that mostiK of our IO reads are 64 blocks and under. The default settings handle IOs upqA to 127 blocks. It appears that I can gain back some memory there.r  G The second thing I noticed was that /NO and /SINCE=BACKUP are no longerrL compatible BACKUP qualifiers. A quick search of GOGGLE showed that my memoryI served me correctly in that in the Summer of 2001 this was noted as a neweL "feature" in VMS 7.3.  I spot checked some of the backups and it seems to be= working correctly (not backing up more files than necessary).y   Marty O'Connor   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:35:09 -0400 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>-/ Subject: Re: validate email address with LDAP ?m$ Message-ID: <3d8a2747$1@news.si.com>  L >  Install the "OpenVMS Enterprise Directory for eBusiness V5.0" package (orL >  later), and operate with OpenVMS V7.3 or later, V7.3-1 or later prefered.  ? But tht won't install on a VAX and there is no 7.3-1 for VAXes.o --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comeA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventA< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Sep 2002 15:54:23 -0700+ From: tonymcg27@yahoo.com.au (Tony McGrath)y/ Subject: Re: validate email address with LDAP ?v= Message-ID: <521ebd9f.0209191454.5ae910c4@posting.google.com>d  o pierre.bru@spotimage.fr (Bru, Pierre) wrote in message news:<1c0e37b1.0209180652.e6b40ad@posting.google.com>...t > hi,a > E > I'm currently writing a DCL procedure which a some point ask for an E > email address. I would like to validate this address with out Win2Kl( > Exchange2K server, using for ex. LDAP. > G > is there any LDAP client available on VMS that I can use to do that ?e >  > TIA,	 > Pierre.h  
 G'day Pierre,o< We wanted to something similar, so we modified a copy of theF SYS$EXAMPLES:LDAP_EXAMPLE.C program so that it returned the results ofC a LDAP query to DCL via a Global Symbol, calling LIB$SET_SYMBOL. Doj you have a C compiler??n   Cheers from Oz,    Tony ---  Tony McGrath OpenVMS Support Groupn Toll Transport, IT Dept.$ Laverton North, VIC, Australia, 3006) tony_mcgrath (at) toll (dot) com (dot) au    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:21:40 -0400-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r, Subject: What is happening to the industry ?, Message-ID: <3D8AA243.4DD13F08@videotron.ca>  R IBM today closed at $64.80. It had stayed at the $100 level though the .COM crash.  $ HP lost just a dollar down to $12.85   Sun down to $2.702  < Dell has been hovering between $25 and $29 in recent times.     J HP's stock price is sheltered by the merger with nobody expecting any goodN news from HP for some time. Sun is suffering from the ".com and telecom crash"- syndrome. But Dell seems to be pretty stable.u  K But I am somewhat at a loss trying to explain IBM's downfall. Since much ofsM IBM's revenus come from services, wouldn't that division continue to generate N revenus (albeit without much growth) since customers still require support for their mainframes etc etc ?   Why is IBM so beaten down ?l  G Note that Sun today announced it was buying a small storage company and K McNealy annoucned he would be buying lots of small companies since they are  now valued reasonably.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 06:28:58 +0200c- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>-0 Subject: Re: What is happening to the industry ?' Message-ID: <3D8AA40B.38F81834@Free.fr>p  O France Telecom, which was expected to move from 150  to 200  end of last year. is at 10 .z  K Vivendi Universal (formerly The Man Who Wanted To Buy America) was at 100 a7 beginning of this year. Its value is today around 12 .m  L I have both. I planned to offer a present to my wife aged 40 since Monday... :-(n   D.   JF Mezei wrote:y > T > IBM today closed at $64.80. It had stayed at the $100 level though the .COM crash. > & > HP lost just a dollar down to $12.85 >  > Sun down to $2.70l > = > Dell has been hovering between $25 and $29 in recent times.o >Y   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 04:54:39 GMTo1 From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie))0 Subject: Re: What is happening to the industry ?< Message-ID: <jSxi9.304032$Yd.11583644@twister.austin.rr.com>  . JF Mezei (jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca) wrote:E : IBM today closed at $64.80. It had stayed at the $100 level though t : the .COM crash.  : & : HP lost just a dollar down to $12.85 :  : Sun down to $2.70o : > : Dell has been hovering between $25 and $29 in recent times.  : L : HP's stock price is sheltered by the merger with nobody expecting any goodJ : news from HP for some time. Sun is suffering from the ".com and telecom 6 : crash" syndrome. But Dell seems to be pretty stable. : M : But I am somewhat at a loss trying to explain IBM's downfall. Since much ofgG : IBM's revenus come from services, wouldn't that division continue to .N : generate revenus (albeit without much growth) since customers still require ( : support for their mainframes etc etc ? :  : Why is IBM so beaten down ?. : I : Note that Sun today announced it was buying a small storage company and.M : McNealy annoucned he would be buying lots of small companies since they areI : now valued reasonably. :   7 EDS' warning led the decline of IT service companies....  ;    http://money.cnn.com/2002/09/19/technology/eds/index.htm 8    EDS warning whacks IT services sector - Sep. 19, 2002     "EDS woes dim tech services C    Technology services companies shares are pressured after leadingb%    player sees substantial shortfall.w  "    September 19, 2002: 5:29 PM EDT/    By Richard Richtmyer, CNN/Money Staff Writer     eG    NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Shares of computer services companies tumbledlF    Thursday after a huge quarterly profit warning from Electronic DataH    Systems Corp. highlighted the perils in what had been one of the last    safe havens in technology.     iG    While the news from EDS whacked other information technology service @    providers, the magnitude of EDS' (EDS: down $19.26 to $17.20,?    Research, Estimates) decline was far greater than any of itsSG    counterparts. Its shares lost more than half their value, falling to""    their lowest level in 11 years.     A    Late Wednesday, the Plano, Texas-based company said it expects I    third-quarter revenue to be down 2 to 5 percent, rather than up as EDSoG    executives had previously forecast, and earnings of 12 to 15 cents ah:    share, well below previous estimates of about 74 cents.    OF    Some of EDS' woes can be traced to company specific issues, such asH    its exposure to US Airways and WorldCom, both of which have filed for3    Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection from creditors.-    -G    But EDS executives attributed much of the quarter's weakness to whatpF    they said was a near-halt in IT spending by large corporations. "WeI    expected spending to tighten ... not virtually stop," EDS Chairman and,6    CEO Dick Brown said on a conference call Wednesday.    eD    It came as no surprise to industry observers that EDS lowered itsG    targets for the quarter, as the industry had been showing some signseA    of weakness. For example, IBM's services business, the world'seI    largest, began softening in the fourth quarter, and Armonk, N.Y.-basedgF    Big Blue has cut more than 14,000 jobs in that unit in an effort to    maintain profits.     F    Many industry analysts had been saying that service companies wouldB    fare better in a weak economy than computer hardware makers and@    telecom equipment providers, for example, which have been hit    particularly hard.-    -I    What wasn't expected was the magnitude of EDS' shortfall, and the news H    prompted a host of brokers to downgrade the stock and cast a wary eye"    on the rest of the industry..."      2 --Jerry Leslie   (my opinions are strictly my own)9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email0   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:57:26 -0400 ; From: "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>e' Subject: RE: Wildcard for Delete /entryhK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E49028BEAD9@rlghncst964.usps.gov>7   No.6  * Entry numbers are system or cluster-wide,    that is, if you SHOW/ENTRY=15 - it shows you the entry no matter where it is n$ (assuming you have rights to see it)  2 so DELETE/ENTRY=* could conceivably zap everything if you had sufficient privs.  	 Not good.>  C Some create bogus queues and ASSIGN/MERGE target-queue source-queue  to them.  E (Before you waste time trying to create a queue pointing to the null i> device: you have to have a real port of some sort to do this.)  4 Others write DCL using the f$getqui lexical function= and nested loops to obtain each entry number in a given queuee and delete it.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----3 From: "Jeff Barnes" [mailto:barnesjw@dfo-mpo.gc.ca]i* Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 1:00 PM To: "Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com" # Subject: Wildcard for Delete /entryo    L How do I delete all the pending jobs for a particular queue using the delete@ /entry= command?  Is there a /entry= <wildcard> for OpenVMS 6.2?  % Forgive the rookie VMS type question.    Thanks   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:33:35 GMT0! From: rob.buxton@wcc.spam.govt.nzs' Subject: Re: Wildcard for Delete /entry % Message-ID: <3d8a6c76.770515252@news>e  1 On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:30:15 -0230, "Jeff Barnes"e <barnesjw@dfo-mpo.gc.ca> wrote:r  M >How do I delete all the pending jobs for a particular queue using the deleteoA >/entry= command?  Is there a /entry= <wildcard> for OpenVMS 6.2?- >-& >Forgive the rookie VMS type question. >t  > Sometimes it's quicker to stop, delete and recreate the queue.A Especially if someone/thing has inadvertently created hundreds of0 entries. >Thanks7 >6 >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 06:01:20 +0200a From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>' Subject: Re: Wildcard for Delete /entryi3 Message-ID: <I4xi9.89058$H6.7265893@zwoll1.home.nl>n   Jeff Barnes wrote:N > How do I delete all the pending jobs for a particular queue using the deleteB > /entry= command?  Is there a /entry= <wildcard> for OpenVMS 6.2? > ' > Forgive the rookie VMS type question.A >  > Thanks >  >    Very quick and dirty:H   $       set noon $       entry=1n $loop:% $       del /entry='entry' <quename>:u $       entry=entry + 1e) $       if entry .ne. 9999 then goto loopo $	exit   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:17:20 -0400_- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>O& Subject: Re: X.25 programming question+ Message-ID: <3D8A14AD.395037F@videotron.ca>A   Valentin Likoum wrote:? > guess I should read and write data on the same channel thoughoF > documentation doesn't say it explicitly). But what happens when next1 > incoming request will arrive? How to handle it?r  H haven't done this, but this should be very very similar to DECNET serverL programming. The DECNET 4 manual has a good example of how to program this.   F > true for X.29 connections but not true for X.25 connections. So X.25F > API is not supposed to handle multiple incoming connections or what?, > Compaq X.25 for OpenVMS Alpha Systems v1.4  M From a structural point of view, an inbound X.29 or X.25 connection should beMM the same. You are getting some data streams. The only difference is that witheG an X.29 connection, you are able to send additional control commands toH configure the remote PAD.o  M *IF* all data arrives on the same VMS channel, perhaps each packet has a byterL that indicates which logical channel the data belonsg to ? (i.e. if you haveL 10 simultaneous connections, instead of having 10 vms channels, you'd have aK single one, but each QIO-read will include which of the 10 logical channelsb; the inbound data belongs to ?) Just speculation on my part.S   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.519 ************************