1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 23 Sep 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 525       Contents: Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article Re: "inview" Article! Re: ??== Java books for newcomers  Re: COPY/FTP passive mode  Re: COPY/FTP passive mode  Re: COPY/FTP passive mode  Re: Date/time math in DCL % How to defrag a shadowed system disk? ) RE: How to defrag a shadowed system disk? P Re: Kudos to HP on JavaScript (was: Oracle RDB 8.0 = Oracle RDB for         IAF)P Re: Kudos to HP on JavaScript (was: Oracle RDB 8.0 = Oracle RDB for         IAF)P Re: Kudos to HP on JavaScript (was: Oracle RDB 8.0 = Oracle RDB for         IAF)P Re: Kudos to HP on JavaScript (was: Oracle RDB 8.0 = Oracle RDB for         IAF) Re: Marketing suggestion Re: Marketing suggestion Re: Marketing suggestion Re: Marketing suggestion Re: Marketing suggestion Re: Marketing suggestion Re: Marketing suggestion Re: Marketing suggestion' Re: New Miss America - Miss Ill-a-Noise ' Re: New Miss America - Miss Ill-a-Noise ' Re: New Miss America - Miss Ill-a-Noise & Re: QUEUE MANAGER dying during backups2 Re: Suggestion for VMS: better TCP access from DCL2 Re: Suggestion for VMS: better TCP access from DCL2 Re: Suggestion for VMS: better TCP access from DCL' Re: VAX/VMS Advanced Programmer manuals 0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these) Re: VMS, C++ and flush Re: VMS, C++ and flush, Re: Will they offer WebLogic on VMS as well? Re: XP1000's going cheap!   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 20:36:15 +0200 @ From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk> Subject: Re: "inview" Article + Message-ID: <3D8F5F1F.7020203@mail.tele.dk>    Let us try and recapitulate !   
 You wrote:  2  >>>>> Case in point would be your suggestion that3  >>>>> Linux/Windows makes a cost effective web and   >>>>> apps server platform.  >>>>>1  >>>>> There is only one general J2EE apps server 1  >>>>> benchmark that attempts to model this kind 4  >>>>> of app on a price/performance basis and thats  >>>>> eCperf.  >>>>>9  >>>>> And this may be counter intuitive, eCperf actually 7  >>>>> shows that a typical Linux/Windows2000 with UNIX 9  >>>>> DBMS infrastructure is more costly per transaction <  >>>>> than say a Sun Apps and Sun DBMS server configuration5  >>>>> with the Sun solution delivering nearly double :  >>>>> the throughput per CPU and using many fewer servers  / Which is clear FUD when we look at the results:    Linux-Unix:     NONE   
 Windows-Unix:     #17  
 Unix-Unix:    #8 #12 #15 #18 #19 #20 #21    I wrote in your own words:  1  >> # Case in point would be your suggestion that 2  >> # Linux/Windows makes a cost effective web and  >> # apps server platform.   ) Which is obvious for anyone familiar with  hardware and software prices.   ( And is also shown by the eCperf results:   Linux-Linux:    #1 #2 #4 #6   Windows-Windows:    #3 #5 #10 #11 #13 #14 #16  / Linux-Windows [do not blame me for that combo]:     #7 #9   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 20:48:05 +0200 @ From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk> Subject: Re: "inview" Article + Message-ID: <3D8F61E5.7000103@mail.tele.dk>   ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:   > Arne Vajhj wrote:2 >> If you take the best Linux-Linux result then it >> cost $5 per BBops.  >>5 >> The best Win2000-Win2000 result cost $6 per BBops.  >>6 >> The best Solaris-Solaris result cost $12 per BBops. >>; >> And if you check the division of cost between app-server 7 >> and db-server, then you will see that all 3 is close  >> to 50%-50%. > 7 > You are attempting to cherry pick particular elements 9 > of the each of the benchmark test to create a composite * > benchmark result that proves your point. > 6 > Anyone who knows anything about benchmarks will tell3 > you that you can prove anything you like with the 7 > above approach but you won't have a valid comparison.     8 So you claim that the price/performance of an app-server3 depends on the hardware and the operating system on  the database-server ?   0 I do not think I want you to design a J2EE app !  4 [note that the fast Linux-Linux results and the slow/ Solaris-Solaris results use the *same* database  and version !]   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 20:56:46 +0200 @ From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk> Subject: Re: "inview" Article + Message-ID: <3D8F63EE.5080506@mail.tele.dk>   ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:   > Arne Vajhj wrote:: > The fact is that the Sun Apps and Sun DBMS configuration; > is faster than and cheaper than any of the configurations 5 > that are based on Lintel/Wintel apps and UNIX DBMS.     ( There are no Linux-Unix configs at all !  2 There are just one Windows-Unix config (using some: extremely costly IBM software and hardware) that is slower4 than some Unix-Unix configs (including some SUN) and8 faster than some Unix-Unix configs (including some SUN).   So your statement is heavy FUD.    >> Extremely FUDish because:7 >>   - there are no Linux-commercial Unix result at all 4 >>   - it is obvious from the numbers that Linux and0 >>     Win2000 indeed is chaper than Solaris for >>     app-servers >> > 6 > Look Windows 2000 and Linux produce almost identical7 > results on the same hardware platorm per CPU. And the - > configs cost the same for the apps servers.  > 4 > Do you think that IBM re-running their eCperf test2 > using Linux and AIX rather than Windows 2000 and, > AIX will materially effect to outcome ????     Nope.    But this is again heavy FUD.  + The reason the price/performance is so poor  on that config is:    - expensive WAS licenses     - expensive DB2 licenses !    - expensive db-server hardware - so suggesting they change the OS from Windows  to Linux will not change much.  6 If they addressed those issued, then they could easily	 beat SUN.      Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 16:35:26 +0100 5 From: "Robert A.M. van Lopik" <lopik@mail.telepac.pt> * Subject: Re: ??== Java books for newcomers( Message-ID: <1032709086.678413@spynews4>  J I have the book, and it looks alright, although overwhelmingly thick (1156K pages!). And you really should have some previous programming experience, I D think. And beware it treats Java 1.4 which, as far as I know, is notJ available on VMS yet. Although that wouldn't matter for the great majority of examples given.   hth,
 rob van lopik   > "Aus, Hans Magnus" <aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote in message< news:aus-0EA6F1.11084322092002@wrzx08.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de...G > Is "Beginning Java 2 SDK 1.4 Edition" by Ivor Horton, a good place to  > start learning Java? > J > I'd appreciate book suggestions for an absolute newcomer to Java. I plan/ > to use Java both Open VMS 7.3-1 and Mac OS X.  >  > --6 > Hans Magnus Aus, Wuerzburg, aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 14:46:24 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> " Subject: Re: COPY/FTP passive mode, Message-ID: <3D8E0FFF.848A77A0@videotron.ca>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:D > No mention of /PASSIVE or anything similar, but the on-line doc.'sB > (V7.3-1?) do show /PASSIVE at this URL (scroll down to find it): > B > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/731FINAL/9996/9996pro_008.html  U VAX VMS, 7.2 with TCPIP 5.3: verb reveals that COPY/FTP does not (yet) have /PASSIVE.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 16:02:53 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> " Subject: Re: COPY/FTP passive mode& Message-ID: <3D8DEF53.F9E6261@fsi.net>   "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote: > D > I have an application which uses COPY/FTP to send files to another > systemD > on the Internet.  Due to a firewall change, I must now use passive > mode > for all transfers. > F > Is it possible to force passive transfers on a user or system basis? > D > I'm currently using VMS 7.3 and UCX 5.1 on both VAX and Alpha (and > could upgrade to& > UCX 5.3 when the latest CD arrives).  B I take it HELP COPY was of little or no assistance here. My V7.1-2 system has only:   COPY     /FTP  B        Transfers files between hosts with possibly dissimilar fileD        systems over a TCP/IP connection by invoking the FTP utility.  
        Format   "          COPY/FTP  fromFile toFile             %     Additional information available:        Parameters Qualifiers E     /ANONYMOUS /ASCII     /BINARY    /FDL       /LOG       /NOSTRUVMS      /VERBOSE     Example   B No mention of /PASSIVE or anything similar, but the on-line doc.'s@ (V7.3-1?) do show /PASSIVE at this URL (scroll down to find it):  @ http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/731FINAL/9996/9996pro_008.html   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 20:11:22 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> " Subject: Re: COPY/FTP passive mode' Message-ID: <3D8E2991.F1BBF426@fsi.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote:F > > No mention of /PASSIVE or anything similar, but the on-line doc.'sD > > (V7.3-1?) do show /PASSIVE at this URL (scroll down to find it): > > D > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/731FINAL/9996/9996pro_008.html > W > VAX VMS, 7.2 with TCPIP 5.3: verb reveals that COPY/FTP does not (yet) have /PASSIVE.   E Quite right. Per the on-line doc.'s, COPY/FTP/PASSIVE does not appear F (documented) until V7.3-1. If I think of it tomorrow, I'll try VERB on- V7.3 to see if it's there and not documented.   E I'm cruising c.o.v. during breaks from a project I'm working on right F now; otherwise, I'd try hacking a bit here. I have the V7.3 and V7.3-1	 CDs here.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2002 20:11:52 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)" Subject: Re: Date/time math in DCL= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0209221911.694d2589@posting.google.com>   ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3D8BD56D.9591852C@fsi.net>... > JF Mezei wrote:  > > K > > Foraging through some allin1 command procedures, I found the following:  > > 1 > > start_time = F$cvtime("+00:02","COMPARISION")  > > <lots of code>( > > end_time = F$cvtime("","COMPARISON") > > P > > if end_time .les. start_time then write sys$output "Took less than 2 minutes > > to execute"  > > M > > So it does seem that DCL does have some capabilities to manipulate times.  >  > Try this:  > & > $ start_time = f$cvtime( ,, "time" ) > $ wait 00:01:15.25$ > $ end_time = f$cvtime( ,, "time" )? > $ duration = f$cvtime( "''end_time'-''start_time'",, "time" )  > $ show symbol duration > D > That works, though it only deals in times, not dates. It will workC > across day boundaries. 00:35:20-23:55:57 will return the expected F > result, but durations of more than 24 hours do not work correctly. IF > have never come up with a workable solution to that problem that was5 > shorter than the procedure I was trying to measure.     ( The method shown above is a cool trick.   D Carl Perkins has posted a DCL routine (timediff.com) that calculatesC the difference between any two valid VMS date-time values. A Google + search in this newsgroup should turn it up.   4 ( See Message-ID: <2JUN200100422660@gerg.tamu.edu> )     Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:06:22 +0800 ) From: "Steven Xie" <r33300@email.mot.com> . Subject: How to defrag a shadowed system disk?+ Message-ID: <amm0gr$a6f$1@newshost.mot.com>   
 Hello all,  L I have an alpha system (ES40, V7.2-1) with shadowed system disk. After usingK it for about three years we found that there are lot of fragment inside the L system disk. Normally we deal with this kind of case is we do a image backupJ from this fragmented disk to tape and then copy it back. But we have neverI done it on shadowed disk before, and we have never done it on system disk G either. Do I need break the shadow set before I do the image backup, or I mount/for good for shadow set? Does anybody has this experience can share  with me?   Thanks Steven   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 00:16:34 -0400 > From: "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com>2 Subject: RE: How to defrag a shadowed system disk?M Message-ID: <3D35AD137AAAD411A6BA0008C7B1B12D032C3C6B@MBCALBEXC03.BENDER.COM>   2 I would do the following, which has worked for me:  = 1) Make sure you do not mount all physical devices or system  : disk shadowset members in system startup.  You should only= mount the master physical device of your system disk at boot, . and not all the system disk shadowset members.  @ 2) Note the physical devices of your system disk and especially > the master physical device of shadowed system disk, boot from > CD, mount the master physical device of your system disk, and = run sys$system:setfilenomove.com.  (You might want to have a  > look see what setfilenomove.com does before you boot from CD.)  > 3) ANAL/DISK/REPAIR the master physical device of your system < disk, while booted from CD.  You may repeat ANAL/DISK/REPAIR" several times to correct problems.  = 4) Do image backup to tape/spare disk of the master physical  : device with verify and CRC checking, while booted from CD.  = 5) Restore image backup from tape or spare disk to the master @ physical device with verify and CRC checking, while booted from , CD.  This should defragment the system disk.  ; Note: The other physical disk(s), or system disk shadowset  @ member(s) are not touched and act as online backup, if anything ! goes wrong with any of the above.   = 6) Boot from the master physical disk of your shadowed system E disk.  (If it does not boot, you can always go to your other physical = shadowset system member and boot, and try other things to get ) system disk defragmented and cleaned up.)   E 7) Once your are satisfied that your master shadowset system disk is  > OK, then mount/shad the other shadowset system disk member(s).  ? 8) Finally, consider purchasing online defragmentor.  HP/Compaq  sells one.  : http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/storage/dfopage.html  = 9) The above weblink also points to download code to produce  A defragmentation report of your system disk, which you might want  ( to run before starting any of the above.  E Although there are other ways you might defragment your system disk,  B I believe you should follow the above or similar to make sure you C clean up your system disk before trying to get a good backup of it.    :) jck
 John Koska   > -----Original Message-----0 > From: Steven Xie [mailto:r33300@email.mot.com]+ > Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 11:06 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 0 > Subject: How to defrag a shadowed system disk? >  >  > Hello all, > = > I have an alpha system (ES40, V7.2-1) with shadowed system   > disk. After using : > it for about three years we found that there are lot of  > fragment inside the @ > system disk. Normally we deal with this kind of case is we do  > a image backup? > from this fragmented disk to tape and then copy it back. But   > we have never @ > done it on shadowed disk before, and we have never done it on 
 > system disk ? > either. Do I need break the shadow set before I do the image   > backup, or7 > mount/for good for shadow set? Does anybody has this   > experience can share
 > with me? >  > Thanks > Steven >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2002 15:07:51 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Y Subject: Re: Kudos to HP on JavaScript (was: Oracle RDB 8.0 = Oracle RDB for         IAF) 3 Message-ID: <tXP6KDFvDz4L@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Q In article <00A145E6.8FDD888C.4@decus.de>, Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> writes:   H > I didn't miss any aspect of information or navigation possibilities atH > the Compaq OpenVMS and AlphaServer web pages with a JavaScript-blockedH > (and ActiveX-blocked, of course) browser, but I got a lot of responses  D I found the lettering on the left was unreadable, and others told me/ that one needed JavaScript to have it readable.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 20:38:01 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> Y Subject: Re: Kudos to HP on JavaScript (was: Oracle RDB 8.0 = Oracle RDB for         IAF) ' Message-ID: <3D8E2FD0.6EA9F04E@fsi.net>    Michael Unger wrote: > [snip] > I got a lot of responsesC > like "JavaScript and ActiveX are forced by the Internet Community @ > these days. You have to enable it." from webmasters to which I@ > complained about a useless page if JavaScript and ActiveX were > disabled.   F Here again: the difference between what CAN be done and what SHOULD be done.   C > But then again: I don't need to buy from vendors which hide their 0 > product information from me. There are others.  H Indeed ... and now that Interhose Exploder has achieved an unprecedentedF level of dominance, the assimilatees are leaving behind all thought of" the world outside The Evil Empire.  H I'll stick with Netscape, thank you, until something better comes along,G preferably on VMS, but I'll settle for Linux or *BSD at this point, and 7 as long as "The Impossible Dream" remains "impossible".    Y'know, ...   A o Thirty(30) years ago, EVERYone knew that desktop computers were 
 "impossible".   A o Twenty(20) years ago, EVERYone knew that 100 MHz computers were 
 "impossible".   @ o Ten(10) years ago, EVERYone knew that hand-held computers were
 "impossible".   ! Imagine what we'll know tomorrow.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 17:02:37 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> Y Subject: Re: Kudos to HP on JavaScript (was: Oracle RDB 8.0 = Oracle RDB for         IAF) , Message-ID: <3D8E2FE3.73BCD046@videotron.ca>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:H > Here again: the difference between what CAN be done and what SHOULD be > done.   M I still don't understand the point of having convoluted javascript instead of E a simple "SUBMIT" button or image which are fully possible with HTML.   I Anothere xample is the www.survivor.cbs.com web site. Instead of coding a M black background, the idiots decide to built a 1 pixel GIF image and put that I as a tiled background image. Not only does that generate a huge amount of G overhead for an extra HTTP transaction, not only is the 1 pixel content K encapsulated in a whole GIF enveloppe, but its displaying is extremely slow J because the browser must duplicate the image billions of times to fill theM screen before it can even contemplate starting to place the contents over it. E And whenever you scroll, it must fill the newly exposed area with the P individual black dots and that is extremely slow unless you have a 2ghz machine.  L I really really do not understand why folks go through so much trouble. KISSD is so much better, especially when it yields the exact same results.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 21:01:59 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> Y Subject: Re: Kudos to HP on JavaScript (was: Oracle RDB 8.0 = Oracle RDB for         IAF) ' Message-ID: <3D8E3571.1E5AF957@fsi.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote:J > > Here again: the difference between what CAN be done and what SHOULD be	 > > done.  > O > I still don't understand the point of having convoluted javascript instead of G > a simple "SUBMIT" button or image which are fully possible with HTML.  > K > Anothere xample is the www.survivor.cbs.com web site. Instead of coding a O > black background, the idiots decide to built a 1 pixel GIF image and put that K > as a tiled background image. Not only does that generate a huge amount of I > overhead for an extra HTTP transaction, not only is the 1 pixel content M > encapsulated in a whole GIF enveloppe, but its displaying is extremely slow L > because the browser must duplicate the image billions of times to fill theO > screen before it can even contemplate starting to place the contents over it. G > And whenever you scroll, it must fill the newly exposed area with the R > individual black dots and that is extremely slow unless you have a 2ghz machine. > N > I really really do not understand why folks go through so much trouble. KISSF > is so much better, especially when it yields the exact same results.  G Hhmmm... My guess: Some ill-informed person's way of trying to conserve 3 bandwidth - make the client CPU do the replication.   D Why not just skip the whiz-bang bullshit and stick with the content?   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 14:39:50 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestion , Message-ID: <3D8E0E76.93F723EA@videotron.ca>   Russell Wallace wrote:G > I'm curious - why is rollover so dangerous? Intuitively it would seem E > highly unlikely to kill you, though my intuition could certainly be 
 > wrong here.   H A real 4wd vehicle is built with a high centre of gravity to have a highK clearance between the ground and the bottom of the frame. This allows it to K travel through rough terrain (eg: off road) withouth rocks, boulders, small / tree trunks scraping the bottom of the vehicle.   K A real 4wd isn't designed for speed on a highway, it is designed to get you  through rough terrain.  K the problem is that many SUVs inherited some of those designs but are being J used in urban situations and at highway speeds. High centre of gravity andC high speed means that in a curve, you are more likely to roll over.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 19:58:06 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestion B Message-ID: <Lfpj9.219500$AR1.9161655@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D8E0E76.93F723EA@videotron.ca... > Russell Wallace wrote:I > > I'm curious - why is rollover so dangerous? Intuitively it would seem G > > highly unlikely to kill you, though my intuition could certainly be  > > wrong here.  > J > A real 4wd vehicle is built with a high centre of gravity to have a highJ > clearance between the ground and the bottom of the frame. This allows it toG > travel through rough terrain (eg: off road) withouth rocks, boulders,  small 1 > tree trunks scraping the bottom of the vehicle.  > I > A real 4wd isn't designed for speed on a highway, it is designed to get  you  > through rough terrain.  J You seem confused between 4WD (which is purely and simply a description ofH how many wheels are powered) and something else (perhaps an 'all-terrainD vehicle' - ATV, though that's come to mean something smaller than anJ automobile, or 'off-road vehicle', though that's come to connote something& custom-built for, e.g., the Baha run).  H 4WD is certainly applicable to non-off-road activity.  For example, AudiH started to dominate hill-climbs (on well-maintained roads) when it began	 using it.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 21:15:33 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestion B Message-ID: <Vpqj9.120938$216.4654312@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D8E0E76.93F723EA@videotron.ca... > Russell Wallace wrote:I > > I'm curious - why is rollover so dangerous? Intuitively it would seem G > > highly unlikely to kill you, though my intuition could certainly be  > > wrong here.  > J > A real 4wd vehicle is built with a high centre of gravity to have a highJ > clearance between the ground and the bottom of the frame. This allows it toG > travel through rough terrain (eg: off road) withouth rocks, boulders,  small 1 > tree trunks scraping the bottom of the vehicle.  > I > A real 4wd isn't designed for speed on a highway, it is designed to get  you  > through rough terrain.  J You seem confused between 4WD (which is purely and simply a description ofH how many wheels are powered) and something else (perhaps an 'all-terrainD vehicle' - ATV, though that's come to mean something smaller than anJ automobile, or 'off-road vehicle', though that's come to connote something& custom-built for, e.g., the Baha run).  H 4WD is certainly applicable to non-off-road activity.  For example, AudiH started to dominate hill-climbs (on well-maintained roads) when it began	 using it.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 04:26:42 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> ! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestion ? Message-ID: <6Kwj9.407301$_91.550327@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>   6 "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote in message# news:J5$okjbOgxwq@elias.decus.ch...  > J > Just a slight correction, pertaining to the UK. Folks will buy somethingF > like a Range Rover as a status symbol, and at the first sign of snowG > will deliberately head off into it, when those who know better decide H > to stay at home. Those folks tend to get stuck because they don't have0 > the experience of driving in rough conditions.  G Or mayhap because they ran out of petrol, a commodity that costs (IIRC) $ about $6USD per US gallon in the UK?  J Fortunately my 1988 BMW 325ix 4x4 gets far better gas mileage than does anI SUV. Fuel consumption alone would be enough to deter me from shelling out J $50KUSD or more on an SUV. Unless you actually do much off-road driving orK have to tow something big, it seems to me that a high-price (and ultra-high I margin) vehicle that has a higher cupholder count than an MPG rating does   not make a heck of lot of sense.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 04:28:16 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> ! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestion ? Message-ID: <wLwj9.370621$kp.1139618@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>   5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message / news:amj1fq$672pa$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de... I > In article <R50j9.10791$q41.6999@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, ' > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: K > > As found on-line today while searching for reviews of a new book, "High  And L > > Mighty - SUVs: The World's Most Dangerous Vehicles And How They Got That	 > > Way".  > 7 > Not having read it, I am obviously not an expert but, & >  it smacks of "Unsafe at any speed".  L Yup. The book that prevented me from getting a car I wanted in the mid-60's: a turbocharged Corvair Corsa.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Sep 2002 07:39:21 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestion - Message-ID: <87lm5tk312.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   * bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  . > In article <3D8B7589.A1328F91@videotron.ca>,2 > 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:Q > > Take the VMS freeware CD and include it in a mass distributed IT magazine and = > > make sure "VMS" is clearly written in big letters on it.   > > M > > This would send a very clear message that VMS is still alive and kicking, K > > supports software from CDs instead of 9 track tape (remove some of that I > > "legacy" image) and that there is software that is affordable for it.  > > < > > That would go a long long way towards raising awareness. >  >  > Nice idea, except......  >   > IT Manager receives magazine - > Finds CD in back - > Removes CD - > Sticks CD in Win2K PC -  > Nothing happens - / > Goes to "My Computer" and clicks on CD icon -   D AUTORUN.INF starts linux instalation and asks him what he would like as root password :)    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Sep 2002 07:45:38 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestion - Message-ID: <87heghk2ql.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   % "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:   > > Corvair was just a mid-engine car with a low polar moment of@ > inertia. Engine was ahead of the axle, so it qualifies for theE > mid-engine status. The problem it suffered from is the same problem B > that Porsche 911's suffered from up until about 20 years ago - aE > desire to swap ends under certain road and driving conditions. With A > the Porsche, the average driver is a bit more knowledgeable and F > competent about anticipating and correcting this state - the average > Corvair driver wasn't.  H The Corvair also had; a exhaust heated air heater built to `traditional'E US auto standards, a flywheel that really did not want to stay on the D end of the crank, and a swing axel rear end with a high pivot point.B The last on gave it the same evilness that old VW beetles had, butE a `vair could get in to bitey speeds way easier. GM did a big coverup I and turned a few moderate teething problem into an almighty cluster-f***. G And destroyed on of the few good cars to come out of the US, post WWII.  (Studibaker before you ask)    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Sep 2002 07:59:41 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestion - Message-ID: <87d6r5k236.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   2 rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net (Russell Wallace) writes:  B > I'm curious - why is rollover so dangerous? Intuitively it would= > seem highly unlikely to kill you, though my intuition could  > certainly be wrong here.  D High CG and no roll bars or roll cage. They tend to either roll on aF slope, and keep rolling all the way down, or skid then flip violently.' Neither is a health promoting activity.   @ I must confess, that one thing I enjoyed when I had the ToJo wasF driving into rain, pulling it into 4WD and continuing on that the sameH speed. The idiot behind who had not slowed down got a good wakeup at the next corner :)   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 20:31:45 GMT * From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>0 Subject: Re: New Miss America - Miss Ill-a-NoiseB Message-ID: <RMpj9.210012$z91.8879005@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:IhK2kSKZvGQ4@eisner.encompasserve.org... 7 > With much shouting and fanfare... the announcer says:  > ) > "the new Miss America Miss Ill-a-noise"  >  > I rest my case.  > J Out here in the US Southwest we have to put up with "Nah-vah-dah", or evenL better the "Moe-Jave" desert.  Perhaps Spanish should be mandatory, at least for TV announcers.     Jack Peacock   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 20:58:45 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 0 Subject: Re: New Miss America - Miss Ill-a-Noise' Message-ID: <3D8E34AE.2CCF5331@fsi.net>    Jack Peacock wrote:  > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:IhK2kSKZvGQ4@eisner.encompasserve.org... 9 > > With much shouting and fanfare... the announcer says:  > > + > > "the new Miss America Miss Ill-a-noise"  > >u > > I rest my case.: > > L > Out here in the US Southwest we have to put up with "Nah-vah-dah", or evenN > better the "Moe-Jave" desert.  Perhaps Spanish should be mandatory, at least > for TV announcers.  H Well, AFAIK, it's still a violation of local ordinance to call the riverH town near here "Jolly-ETT" instead of "JOE-lee-Et" (Joliet) ... and yet,# it's heard daily by area residents.   A I get a kick out of the Weather Channel folks who say "Miz-UR-ah"DE instead of "Miz-UR-ee", which is what *I* grew up with in the Western= Suburbs of Chicago.   F A local DJ used to play a tune known locally as "the Waunakee song" or2 "Go Back To Chicago". I recall the second refrain:  ! But then what the hell do I know?i I come from Waunakee.s I wear animal pelts, I eat raw meat,k I sleep in a hollow tree.t I'd like to thank you much for pointing out to me$ my lack of breeding, taste and poise% like they have in Chicago, Illinoise!    -- s David J. Dachtera- dba DJE SystemsU http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2002 22:45:03 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e0 Subject: Re: New Miss America - Miss Ill-a-Noise3 Message-ID: <3EGAFZLFlqjy@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3D8E34AE.2CCF5331@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:e > C > I get a kick out of the Weather Channel folks who say "Miz-UR-ah"uG > instead of "Miz-UR-ee", which is what *I* grew up with in the Westerno > Suburbs of Chicago.u >   9 	Growing up across the river from Missouri, the dig is toe6 	pronounce it "misery"... as in "Are you from Misery?"  H > A local DJ used to play a tune known locally as "the Waunakee song" or4 > "Go Back To Chicago". I recall the second refrain: > # > But then what the hell do I know?O > I come from Waunakee.e > I wear animal pelts, > I eat raw meat,w > I sleep in a hollow tree.5 > I'd like to thank you much > for pointing out to me& > my lack of breeding, taste and poise' > like they have in Chicago, Illinoise!L >    	HA... that's a good one.v   				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2002 20:18:51 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)/ Subject: Re: QUEUE MANAGER dying during backupsp= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0209221918.11370eef@posting.google.com>t  v glenmark@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Glen Martin) wrote in message news:<6e2f14f4.0209200811.79079dd8@posting.google.com>...u > spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) wrote in message news:<b096a4ee.0209190726.28469923@posting.google.com>...hz > > glenmark@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Glen Martin) wrote in message news:<6e2f14f4.0209181206.42a2e6dd@posting.google.com>...I > > > About once every other week (corresponding with our full backups of K > > > the disk containing SYS$QUEUE_MANAGER.QMAN$JOURNAL) our QUEUE MANAGERd< > > > is dying. Any ideas as to why this might be happening? > > >  [...] : > > Can you give us the exact backup command used, please? > > 6 > > Did your backup command include /IGNORE=INTERLOCK? > >  > > Disclaimer: JMHO > > Alan E. Feldmanr >  > From our backup command file:# > $       BACKUP  /IMAGE - >                 /RECORD -  >                 /NOALIAS -, >                 /IGNORE=LABEL_PROCESSING - >                 'disk': -a) >                 tape_device:'saveset' - # >                 'backup_rewind' -vO >                 /tape_expiration="''f$cvtime("today+14-","absolute","date")'"0 > G > We've been doing backups the same way for years. Never a hiccup until F > this started happening about a month ago, and I know of nothing that > has been changed...b >  > G.    E I assume this is not your system disk. Perhaps someone recently movedt& the queue database files to this disk?  E Add /IGNORE=INTERLOCK and try again. Please let us know. Also, pleaseuE report, ***in their entirety***, any relevant error messages from theg backup job. Thanks.c   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmanb   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 16:21:34 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>m; Subject: Re: Suggestion for VMS: better TCP access from DCLt' Message-ID: <3D8DF3B5.D1E3A42A@fsi.net>v   JF Mezei wrote:n > K > With DECNET, one has very good DCL access to network stuff. Including thehL > ability to open a link to some server, send a transaction, get a response,/ > close the link. (As well as file operations).t > M > I think that there should be considerations to allow similar functionlalityt
 > via DCL. >  > for instance: 3 > OPEN/READ/WRITE temp "TCPIP:www.chocolate.com:80"0 > or3 > OPEN/READ/WRITE temp "UCP:bike.transport.com:432"r  G Well, even LAT-land, you didn't have a similar mechanism. You'd have to6@ use LATCP to create the port and set the target node and port orC service. You could then use the resulting LTA device like any other $ device (TTAx,:, TXAx:, LPAx:, etc.).  % At the very least, Multinet provides:   +        $ TELNET /CREATE_NTY[=([PERMANENT] -I'                  [,NAME=logical_name] -f.                  [,TABLE=logical_name_table] -1                  [,MODE={EXECUTIVE|SUPERVISOR}] -n%             [/PORT=target-TCP-port] -n
          host   A        The options contain a comma-separated list beginning with:n  D        PERMANENT          Specifies that the NTY device will persistC                           after you close the TELNET connection. To>B                           delete the permanent NTY device, use theB                           MULTINET TELNET /DELETE_NTY=logical_name"                           command.  0        and continuing with any of the following:  F        NAME=logical_name  Specifies the NTY device's logical name. The=                           default logical name is TELNET_NTY.uC        TABLE=logical_     Specifies the logical name table to whichtG        name_table         the new NTY device name is added. The defaulttD                           logical name table is LNM$PROCESS_PROCESS.C        MODE=access_mode   Specifies the logical name's access mode.hH                           access_mode is either SUPERVISOR (the default)'                           or EXECUTIVE.   @        Privileged users can use /CREATE_NTY options to establishE        permanent NTY devices. In this case, the NTY device is createdbF        but no connection is made to the specified host until the first        I/O operation.g  :        Use this qualifier only with permanent NTY devices.      lH You can then OPEN, Close, READ and WRITE the resulting NTY device in DCLH or any other program. The target of a MULTINET_STREAM_SYMBIONT queue can@ be used in the same way. LPD targets may not behave as expected.  @ I believe TCP/IP Services ("UCX") provides a similar facility to> Multinet, except that the stream symbiont handles things a bitB differently - no virtual device is created, the symbiont opens the socket when it needs to.  A TCPware has the NETCP facility, but I don't have a TCPware systemtH available where I can get at the help for NETCP (if it has any). I thinkF NETCP is how you create devices like Multinet can. Someone more TCPare$ literate will have to speak to that.   -- z David J. Dachterau dba DJE Systems- http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/@   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 18:15:52 GMT.1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>:; Subject: Re: Suggestion for VMS: better TCP access from DCLn' Message-ID: <3D8E0E81.C29422FE@fsi.net>    Beach, Runner wrote: >  > What is wrong with copy/ftp?  @ Doesn't support read/write which is what he seems to want to do.   -- . David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/m   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 14:50:30 -0400v- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ; Subject: Re: Suggestion for VMS: better TCP access from DCLc, Message-ID: <3D8E10F5.6472534F@videotron.ca>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:J > According to the on-line doc.'s for TCPware, there is TELNET host/CREATE! > and within TELENT, OPEN/CREATE.v    N TCPIP 5.x also has a TELNET /CREATE, except that it does only TCP, no UDP. AndL it is unusable on VAX because it creates an interactive session whenever theG remote host sends a string, and the /NOINTERACTIVE is not accepted as a @ qualifier. So I gave up on telnet/create and use kermit instead.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 06:50:51 +0200P- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> 0 Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Advanced Programmer manuals' Message-ID: <3D8E9DAB.35C3DC71@Free.fr>a  ! Yes I am, for my books museum :-)r) What weight? more or less (in kg, please)D   Tx.  D.   harold pratt wrote:  > N > I have recently uncovered a series of about 20 DEC VAX/VMS manuals - vintage > 1983. J > They include the Advanced Programmer series (10 vols.), Fortran, Pascal,G > Datatrieve, and Decmail. Anyone interested ?  They are located in the. > Portsmouth, NH areat > Harryp   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2002 15:04:37 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)-9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these) 3 Message-ID: <UUfwftETD6ZD@eisner.encompasserve.org>:   In article <rdeininger-2209021024500001@1cust21.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:m  K > There are some concrete reasons why IA64 systems should be more "generic"oF > than IA32 systems.  IA64's PAL/SAL/EFI/ACPI seem to have most of theK > abstractions needed to hide system details, while still giving the OS thew > info it needs. > ( > IA32 has BIOS, which is much stupider.  H Hindsight is 20-20, so presumably Intel has learned from their mistakes.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2002 15:05:58 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)u9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)t3 Message-ID: <F9CzhcJj0blL@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  [ In article <3D8DEC14.100180B7@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:m > Robert Deininger wrote:   L >> There are some concrete reasons why IA64 systems should be more "generic"G >> than IA32 systems.  IA64's PAL/SAL/EFI/ACPI seem to have most of the L >> abstractions needed to hide system details, while still giving the OS the >> info it needs.e >> 9) >> IA32 has BIOS, which is much stupider.v > . > Perhaps a more intelligent BIOS is in order. > H > ...and are not the technologies you cite currently in use on new-issueE > IA32's? (My Celeron-366, 1999 vintage has an early version of ACPI,  > dunno 'bout the others.)  > But one cannot make such statements about _all_ IA32 machines.  1 Robert mentioned features of _all_ IA32 machines.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:49:03 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these) ' Message-ID: <3D8DEC14.100180B7@fsi.net>a   Robert Deininger wrote:e > = > In article <3D8CCF18.5B49FCA2@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"t  > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > G > >My posts in favor of OpenVMS-IA32 are routinely met with a chorus oftI > >follow-ups talking about since there are so many variants of chipsets,cD > >third-party controllers, graphics adapters and other incompatibleJ > >hardware, not to mention the addressing scheme and other limitations ofG > >that architecture, that the chances of any of those millions of IA32dK > >boxes being able to run any OVMS-IA32 that might be developed are indeeddI > >so small as to make it financially infeasible for the OpenVMS group toeF > >justify to the corporate bean-counters. (I heartily disagree, but I > >digress...).U > >0G > >Personally, I'd like to know how that differs from any scenario that-K > >might evolve as IA64 boxes start to replace IA32s (if, indeed, that evere > >does actually happen).c > K > There are some concrete reasons why IA64 systems should be more "generic"eF > than IA32 systems.  IA64's PAL/SAL/EFI/ACPI seem to have most of theK > abstractions needed to hide system details, while still giving the OS thet > info it needs. > ( > IA32 has BIOS, which is much stupider.  , Perhaps a more intelligent BIOS is in order.  F ...and are not the technologies you cite currently in use on new-issueC IA32's? (My Celeron-366, 1999 vintage has an early version of ACPI,  dunno 'bout the others.)   -- r David J. Dachterab dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 20:20:19 GMT01 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>"9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)a' Message-ID: <3D8E2BA9.85BCEA61@fsi.net>A   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3D8DEC14.100180B7@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > > Robert Deininger wrote:s > N > >> There are some concrete reasons why IA64 systems should be more "generic"I > >> than IA32 systems.  IA64's PAL/SAL/EFI/ACPI seem to have most of thelN > >> abstractions needed to hide system details, while still giving the OS the > >> info it needs.l > >>+ > >> IA32 has BIOS, which is much stupider.i > >o0 > > Perhaps a more intelligent BIOS is in order. > >sJ > > ...and are not the technologies you cite currently in use on new-issueG > > IA32's? (My Celeron-366, 1999 vintage has an early version of ACPI,) > > dunno 'bout the others.) > @ > But one cannot make such statements about _all_ IA32 machines. > 3 > Robert mentioned features of _all_ IA32 machines..   *MUST* it be "all or nothing"?  G Isn't some (a slice of) pie better than no pie at all? ...no matter howeF small the slice (consider: OVMS's current market share vs. W/NT or W2K? server, UN*X and/or Linux: est. 400,000 vs. millions or tens ofo
 millions)?  F Isn't that indeed what OpenVMS-IA64 is targetted at (some, but not all IA64-based machines)?s  @ ...and if so, would not the same hold true for IA32 (vastly moreF ubiquitous now than IA64 will be before it can hope to supplant Alpha, much less IA32)?   -- d David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsb http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 20:26:36 GMTs1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)r' Message-ID: <3D8E2D24.E8659800@fsi.net>n   Larry Kilgallen wrote: >  > In article <rdeininger-2209021024500001@1cust21.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:p > M > > There are some concrete reasons why IA64 systems should be more "generic"nH > > than IA32 systems.  IA64's PAL/SAL/EFI/ACPI seem to have most of theM > > abstractions needed to hide system details, while still giving the OS them > > info it needs. > >l* > > IA32 has BIOS, which is much stupider. > J > Hindsight is 20-20, so presumably Intel has learned from their mistakes.  H IMO, brash presumption considering a friend of mine has been, like many,G "waiting for Merced" since before his six-year-old fraternal twins werea born.e  E Intel may have learned from a few of their own mistakes, but no where D near enough, and have learned less than nothing from the mistakes of others.s  > Again, IMO ... YMMV, results not typical, may cause unexpectedC side-effects, void where prohibited by law, taxed or embargoed, notaE suitable for all audiences, some restrictions apply, not available in B all areas, no purchase necessary, see store display for details...   --   David J. Dachteras dba DJE SystemsI http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 20:49:45 -0400t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these) J Message-ID: <rdeininger-2209022049450001@1cust95.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>  ; In article <3D8E2BA9.85BCEA61@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"i <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:    G >Isn't that indeed what OpenVMS-IA64 is targetted at (some, but not all  >IA64-based machines)?   Seems to depend on who you ask.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 22:14:26 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)t+ Message-ID: <3D8E78FF.CBDE61A@videotron.ca>t   Robert Deininger wrote:aI > >Isn't that indeed what OpenVMS-IA64 is targetted at (some, but not all, > >IA64-based machines)? > ! > Seems to depend on who you ask.p  K VMS can run on DS10s, but Compaq/HP chose not to market/target VMS for suchcK markets. So even if VMS could run on a IA64 laptop, it doesn't mean that HP # would market VMS for such a market.   K There is not much point in VMS loyalists trying to push VMS into markets HPtI doesn't want VMS to go. Let HP clearly state where it wants VMS to go andpH those who agree will toe the line and those who disagree will , well..., disagree :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Sep 2002 07:15:03 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)e- Message-ID: <87ptv5k45k.fsf@prep.synonet.com>s  4 rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:  = > In article <3D8CCF18.5B49FCA2@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"l  > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  A > There are some concrete reasons why IA64 systems should be more D > "generic" than IA32 systems.  IA64's PAL/SAL/EFI/ACPI seem to haveE > most of the abstractions needed to hide system details, while still " > giving the OS the info it needs.  F Oh? We have the hp boxes with the ZX1 chipset, intels 870 stuff in theC Tiger, when that crawls out into daylight, NECs 32 way monster with  yet another chipset etc.  $ Anyone else got boxes out there yet?   -- i< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.n@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 12:24:09 -0400r1 From: "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccusker@charter.net>3 Subject: Re: VMS, C++ and flush / Message-ID: <uorrldede0bp84@corp.supernews.com>t  3 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message ! news:3D8C388D.322EE71D@aaa.com...  > Hi.c9 > The last couple of days, I'v looked into a problem witho< > a C++ program. I have now found a solution to the problem,- > but I still don't understand what happened.  >c > Scenario:c: > A C++ application works just OK on all systems, but one.; > The application is rather simple, reads on text file witha= > 500 char blocks of data, moves the data around a little andc8 > writes a new textfil with 80 char blocks with a subset > of the data. >,= > On this single system, the output file got currupted, theret+ > was a lot of <null>'s around in the file.l >e8 > After studying the output file, I found that the first6 > <null> character always was after 1024 characters in: > the output file. I thought about buffering and flushing,; > and tried to insert a flush() on the output stream in the > > application after each 80 char records was written. And that > solved it. >s< > It looks like this system fills the current 80 char record; > with nulls up to a full record at each (automatic) flush.0? > Doing a flush when I know that the record is complete, solvedt > it.j >:7 > Now, how come that this application works fine on allc- > other systems without the explicit flush().. >A5 > The problem system is a DS20e/633 with VMS 7.3. Allh0 > pathes looks fine. The other systems are a lot2 > of different types and versions, including V7.3.  K The system that is seeing the behavior - Does it have the latest C RTL ECO?dJ What is the image ident and link date of DECC$SHR.EXE?  Ditto question for6 the systems where it the strange behavior is not seen?  " Then, could you post a reprodcuer?  
 Brad McCuskerd OpenVMS Enginering   >p > Jan-Erik Sderholm.t   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Sep 2002 21:24:03 -0700: From: craig.berry@SignalTreeSolutions.com (Craig A. Berry) Subject: Re: VMS, C++ and flushn= Message-ID: <7f15589f.0209222024.7de8645c@posting.google.com>e   Bill Todd wrote:  I > From what Craig just said, this merely transfers the RTL buffers to RMSnN > buffers (which if true sounds like a bug:  isn't flush supposed to flush all > the way to disk?).    @ We're not talking about sys$flush, at least I don't think we areD (though without the code in front of us this is all speculative). WeC might be talking about the flush() method on a C++ iostream object,IF which may or may not use the C RTL's fflush() under the hood dependingE on the compiler version and/or which version of iostreams were chosennE at compile time. Jan-Erik may want to search for sync_with_stdio() at   Y <http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/cplus/alpha_doc/ugvstl.html#pre_ansi_ios_upgrd>   > and also check C++ versions and whenter the C++ command on the; different systems has been modified by a symbol definition.-  ? If the C++ program uses the C RTL, fflush() is defined by the CmC language standard and causes "unwritten data to be delivered to thegA host environment." fsync() is a UNIX system called defined by theaB POSIX standard and its purpose is to "synchronize a file's in-coreA state with that on disk." Only the latter guarantees an immediatei sys$flush call.y  L > It had been my impression that the RTL bypassed RMS record I/O and either E > used RMS block I/O or (gasp!) QIOs, but I don't know that for sure.a  @ I don't either but I doubt it's the same for all file formats. I? suspect it must use RMS for record-oriented files and the flush + probably causes a sys$put of buffered data.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 10:23:52 -0500 7 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com>e5 Subject: Re: Will they offer WebLogic on VMS as well?iG Message-ID: <craigberry-2A99C3.10235222092002@news.directvinternet.com>e  , In article <3D8D2D4A.E8AFB1A3@videotron.ca>,/  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:1   > John Smith wrote:lP > > periodically dangled hints of their relationship ever since Peter Blackmore,M > > HP's head of high-end computers, said that the company would "retire" itsp > > middleware business. > O > That is a scary statement coming from Blackmore, especially when you consider 1 > they have already retired so much VMS software    E In the case of application servers, they've dumped a failing product dH from the old HP in favor of a partnership they acquired with Compaq and ? that goes back to DEC.  How can that possibly bode ill for VMS?r  H In answer to the question in the subject line, OpenVMS availability was  announced a long time agoh  < <http://www.bea.com/press/releases/2002/0625_hp_print.shtml>  0 I'm not familiar with what's currently shipping.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 19:49:56 -0400i, From: "David Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com>" Subject: Re: XP1000's going cheap!C Message-ID: <frsj9.147613$AY5.65794422@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>a   I don't quite get the question  H But we have been selling these to a company in Michigan(dealer) for this* price - so I would say thisis a fair price     DT< "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D8D2812.D16A1710@fsi.net...  > David Turner wrote:t > >l > > XP1000 667Mhzi	 > > 512MBd > > 9GB UW SCSI  > > 10/100 Ethernet  > >- > > Only $2695 for COV > G > What would be a fair resale value for that box running Alpha Linux orcC > FreeBSD-Alpha? Would the potential margin make it worth my while?3 >1 > -- > David J. Dachterag > dba DJE Systemse > http://www.djesys.com/ >o* > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/c   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.525 ************************