1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 25 Sep 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 529       Contents:9 Re: %SYSTEM-W-HEADERFULL message,,, but only on one node? 9 Re: %SYSTEM-W-HEADERFULL message,,, but only on one node? 9 Re: %SYSTEM-W-HEADERFULL message,,, but only on one node?  AMD in trouble! Re: Changing Strings in EXE files ! Re: Changing Strings in EXE files ! Re: Changing Strings in EXE files  Re: CLD question3 DECServer 90M and 900TM port setup for DCPS printer  Re: Disaster-Tolerant clusters) DNS question.  TCPWARE 5.5-3 on VMS 7.1-2 - Re: DNS question.  TCPWARE 5.5-3 on VMS 7.1-2  DS10L's for USD889 Hardware flow control 6 Re: Hardware flow control to terminal port using QIO's6 Re: Hardware flow control to terminal port using QIO's6 Re: Hardware flow control to terminal port using QIO's6 Re: Hardware flow control to terminal port using QIO's0 Re: Hardware Mirroring 'vs' Software Mirroring ?0 Re: Hardware Mirroring 'vs' Software Mirroring ?& Re: How to run a C program on VAX/VMS? Re: HP to push .NET big time HP to push .NET big time Re: HP to push .NET big time Re: HP to push .NET big time Re: HP to push .NET big time Re: HP to push .NET big time Re: Marketing suggestion RE: Marketing suggestion Re: Marketing suggestion Re: Marketing suggestion Re: Marketing suggestion Re: Marketing suggestion' Re: New Miss America - Miss Ill-a-Noise ' Re: New Miss America - Miss Ill-a-Noise # Re: New www.openvms.compaq.com site " Re: OpenOffice ODBC and Oracle Rdb opensource mail  Re: opensource mail  Re: opensource mail  Re: opensource mail  OpenVMS 25th anniversary survey # Re: OpenVMS 25th anniversary survey # Re: OpenVMS 25th anniversary survey K Re: Proposal: Retirement of some Components of the Compaq C++ Class Library K Re: Proposal: Retirement of some Components of the Compaq C++ Class Library P Re: Proposal: Retirement of some Components of the Compaq C++ Class Library Libr& RE: QUEUE MANAGER dying during backups& Re: QUEUE MANAGER dying during backups' Re: sys$Pipe and DCL$PATH documentation ' TCPIP: can a channel to BG: be reused ?  TCPWARE host table loading0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)0 Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)# Re: VMS system accounts description # Re: VMS system accounts description # RE: VMS system accounts description  Re: VMS, C++ and flush Re: warning during copy ' Re: What is happening to the industry ? ' Re: What is happening to the industry ? ' Re: What is happening to the industry ? ' Re: What is happening to the industry ? ' Re: What is happening to the industry ? ' Re: What is happening to the industry ? ' Re: What is happening to the industry ? ' Re: What is happening to the industry ? ' Re: What is happening to the industry ? ' Re: What is happening to the industry ? ( Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPed( Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPed( Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPed( Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPed( Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPed Re: ZIP version 2.2  Re: ZIP version 2.2   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:35:25 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>B Subject: Re: %SYSTEM-W-HEADERFULL message,,, but only on one node?) Message-ID: <3D9031DD.F4954FB1@127.0.0.1>    Perisa Bujosevic wrote:  > 	 > Hi All,  > G > I'm trying to increase size of the dump file on one of the nodes in a F > 2-node OpenVMS Cluster (AS4100+ES40, both with 4Gb mem., OVMS 7.2-1,/ > volume shadowing, almost all recent patches).   E Bone of contention. 7.2-2 is the release on which current patches are  built, consider upgrading...   D > Running AUTOGEN ended with a "%SYSTEM-W-HEADERFULL, file header isA > full" error message. Size of the new dumpfile (as calculated by > > autogen) should be 1119690 blocks, but we didn't have enough< > contiguous disk space on a system disk. Anyway, after someF > housekeeping :) we've manage to get the contiguous area of 860000 inF > size and then re-run the SYS$UPDATE:SWAPFILES.COM. Unfortunately, we@ > got the same error message again. (even with request to create) > smaller, only 300000 blocks big file!?)    <snip>   Try a SET VOLUME/REBUILD=FORCE  E You could have a stale File Control Block (disk specific caches) on a F member in the cluster, the above command may help flush it. However myC experiences of this are based on VAX at around 6.1 but this is what C generally appears to cause inconsistencies between cluster members.   % > Note: System disk is also shadowed.   - This is also consistent with my observations.    --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:10:19 GMT - From: "labadie" <labadie_g.tocardsa@decus.fr> B Subject: Re: %SYSTEM-W-HEADERFULL message,,, but only on one node?0 Message-ID: <fSWj9.5$sY2.61501@news.cpqcorp.net>  @ "Perisa Bujosevic" <perisa.bujosevic@orbit.net> wrote in message7 news:f59edf2b.0209240120.5c16560b@posting.google.com... 	 > Hi All,  > < > I'm trying to increase size of the dump file on one of the  ' Anyway you should use DFU, available at : http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/dfu027a/ a  dfu> report disk will show, among other things  Largest free extent    This may be interesting.  * I think DFU comes installed with Vms 7.3-1   Regards    Grard   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2002 20:59:59 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)B Subject: Re: %SYSTEM-W-HEADERFULL message,,, but only on one node?= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0209241959.7f7ce720@posting.google.com>   x perisa.bujosevic@orbit.net (Perisa Bujosevic) wrote in message news:<f59edf2b.0209240120.5c16560b@posting.google.com>...	 > Hi All,  > G > I'm trying to increase size of the dump file on one of the nodes in a F > 2-node OpenVMS Cluster (AS4100+ES40, both with 4Gb mem., OVMS 7.2-1,/ > volume shadowing, almost all recent patches).  > D > Running AUTOGEN ended with a "%SYSTEM-W-HEADERFULL, file header isA > full" error message. Size of the new dumpfile (as calculated by      This message means that $ 1.) you have run out of file headersE 2.) and therefore INDEXF.SYS needs to be extended to provide room for  moreE 3.) but it can't be extended because *its* file header is full and it @ is allowed to have only one file header -- extension headers for INDEXF.SYS are not allowed  C Somewhere around VMS v5.5 a new improved algorithm for extension of D INDEXF.SYS was introduced which makes the dreaded HEADERFULL problemF much less likely to occur. I was running VMS v5.5-2 at my previous jobE and this new algorithm had some bug which caused INDEXF.SYS on one of D my disks to have many double-digit sized fragments. I called DEC and@ they instructed me to apply the Y2K patch which fixed it. So I'm= surprised you've run into this problem. Perhaps the extension @ algorithm on your version of VMS is again buggy for some reason.    > > autogen) should be 1119690 blocks, but we didn't have enough< > contiguous disk space on a system disk. Anyway, after someF > housekeeping :) we've manage to get the contiguous area of 860000 inF > size and then re-run the SYS$UPDATE:SWAPFILES.COM. Unfortunately, we@ > got the same error message again. (even with request to create) > smaller, only 300000 blocks big file!?)  > B > ... OK. We will go for DOSD and that (I hope ;-)) shouldn't be a
 > problem.     Sorry, what is DOSD?    F > What I'm curious about is that trying to create the dump file on theE > other node   (same size, 300000 blocks, minute after I tried on the , > first node) goes smoothly, successfully... >  > Why? Any ideas?     F (Same disk, I assume.) Well, perhaps, in the meanwhile, a user deleted2 some files providing some newly free file headers.    % > Note: System disk is also shadowed.      Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2002 23:41:39 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: AMD in trouble 3 Message-ID: <KozDKmf35y9O@eisner.encompasserve.org>   8 	All this AMD talk.  Shoot, they will be in very serious8 	trouble in less than a year no matter how you slice it:    J http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/sep2002/tc20020924_6824.htm  L Still, AMD is betting big on the success of Clawhammer. Losses from existingO products have eroded the chipmaker's financial health in the past year. On June L 30, the Sunnyvale (Calif.) company had $1.1 billion in cash -- enough at theN current burn rate to last one year. "Our cash position -- we are not concernedF about that," says Drew Prairie, an AMD spokesperson. But its financialM obligations are daunting. AMD has $2.31 billion in debt. Half of that is long F term, with $207.9 million due in 2003, according to a company filing.   N BEHIND THE CURVE?  PC sales are expected to be sluggish in 2003, increasing byK 8%, according to analysts from IDC. "Regardless of the [market] growth that O occurs, there's still room for us to grow," says Prairie. Yet that will be hard E to do, given the standing of its chief and much larger rival, Intel.    M Though affected by the PC slowdown, Intel is profitable and has $11.6 billion K in cash and equivalents. It has invested in new production processes in the L past year, making AMD seem behind the curve. With greater economies of scaleO and new gear, Intel's chips are not only becoming cheaper to make but are often L even cheaper to make AMD's offerings. By constantly introducing new, pricierO chips, Intel is managing to keep its margins high -- even while slashing prices O of older products quarterly. AMD has had to follow suit to remain competitive.    N Yet unlike Intel, AMD can't turn a profit while making price cuts. Because itsK processors are better known, Intel commands a 30% to 40% premium over AMD's D chips, according to Michael McConnell, an analyst with Pacific CrestL Securities. Intel also has been methodically pumping out new, more expensiveO processors, while AMD is waiting for Clawhammer to take the world by storm next  year.   I Thus, from the third quarter of 2001 to the same quarter of 2002, Intel's O average selling price of a chip should rise from $150 to $160, while AMD's will K drop from $58 to $55 -- or less, estimates Jonathan Joseph, an analyst with  Salomon Smith Barney.   J COMFORTABLE LEAD.  That puts tremendous pressure on AMD's bottom line (AMDJ declined to comment on its return to profitability). Intel's margins stillO reach 47%, but AMD's gross margins dropped from 35% in the first quarter, to an L all-time low of 7% in the second quarter, according to Lehman Brothers. It'sI unclear how AMD will be able to make any money, agree most analysts. With J limited resources, it might not be able to fight a losing battle forever.   L Clearly, market dynamics have changed. When PC shipments grew at 20% a year,G both Intel and AMD could increase revenue without stealing each other's J customers. Even as it lost market share, Intel hiked its revenue 14%, fromK $29.4 billion in 1999 to $33.7 billion in 2000. But with the market flat or N growing at less than 10% a year, Intel, where PC processors contribute 100% ofM profits, must grow through market-share gains, says Mark Grossman, an analyst  with SG Cowen Securities.   O Intel's PC processor market share has grown by 2.6 percentage points, to 81.9%, K in the second quarter, according to IDC. And the giant should enjoy further M gains in 2002. "I'd be surprised if AMD can sustain [its] market share during I the rest of the year," says Shane Rau, an analyst with IDC. In fact, most M experts believe Intel could grab 90% of the market -- or more -- eventually.    O "LIKE A TOY."  "If AMD has trouble making money with 20% of the market, imagine L what it would be like when it's 10%," says David Wu, an analyst with WedbushL Morgan Securities. AMD's Prairie counters: "We are generally maintaining ourN position in the most difficult economic environment our industry ever faced."      				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:59:53 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG * Subject: Re: Changing Strings in EXE files0 Message-ID: <00A1476B.E25F884B@SendSpamHere.ORG>  W In article <up1etucs49mo68@corp.supernews.com>, "Lou Solomon" <lny98@yahoo.com> writes: F >I do appreciate the sarcasm and puns, but you weren't really all that	 >helpful.    Sure I was.  I wrote:   H   Go to the source and modify it; recompile it; relink it; reinstall it.  + Sage advice and you'd be best to follow it.     K >It is on an Alpha (7.2) and I would rather not, as I clearly stated in the , >bottom of my message, recompile everything.  I You don't need to recompile everything; only the modules which have these I strings and are modified to change the strings need to be recompiled.  If I your application used something like MMS, you'd have very little to do to  update your application.  J As for testing... unless you're a drug company and have to run some overlyH cautious validation suite to prove that changing a name didn't cause theA end of the world, what is the big deal?  ... besides CPU cycles?      K >Note that I just tried the TPU approach, but the file was 'converted' upon J >saving to something that wasn't recognized by the system as a valid Alpha >image.   G Then convert it to something the Alpha does recognize an a valid image. I If you don't understand this, mucking about with the strings and possible E descriptors within your image(s) is far beyond your abilities and you F really should consider the sage advice above. (or pay me to patch your	 images ;)  --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:04:44 -0400 % From: "Lou Solomon" <lny98@yahoo.com> * Subject: Re: Changing Strings in EXE files/ Message-ID: <up1lcepd8u5o4e@corp.supernews.com>    John:   % It looks like it worked like a charm.    THANKS!  THANKS!   Lou   + <briggs@encompasserve.org> wrote in message - news:+X4hRDraWNbM@eisner.encompasserve.org... ? > In article <up1d7mius6192c@corp.supernews.com>, "Lou Solomon"  <lny98@yahoo.com> writes: G > > My company was recently purchased (ie: merged) with another, and we  would K > > like to change references in our programs from  our old company name to  the  > > new company name.  > > H > > I have done a VMS search through the EXE's and found the string "ABCF > > COMPANY" (our old name).  I would like to change it to "XYZ Corp". > > K > > What would be the easiest way to change it?  (is there a patch utility?  can J > > I use TPU or a variant?  should I write a quick program (Basic is what we
 > > have)? > > H > > I would make the assumption that the replace string would have to be exactly E > > the same size as the source string.  This would not be a problem, 
 assuming I > > can pad with spaces. > > F > > Is there anything I need to worry about?  Does VMS use any type of	 checksums < > > (created when the EXE is built) to verify it at runtime? > F > Please disregard the paranoia that you are picking up.  Patching the stringK > will work just fine.  I have done that sort of thing several times in the J > past.  Doing it with different length strings would have been asking for: > trouble, but blank-filling will cover that issue nicely. > E > One way to do the edits would be to simply use $ EDIT /TPU and then # > fix up file attributes afterward:  >  > $ EDIT /TPU oldfile.EXE  > make your fixes ( > $ CONVERT oldfile.exe * /FDL=SYS$INPUT > record > format fixed
 > size 512 > ^Z > " > I just verified that this works. > 
 > John Briggs  >    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2002 20:54:32 -0700# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) * Subject: Re: Changing Strings in EXE files= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0209241954.530c7122@posting.google.com>   \ "Lou Solomon" <lny98@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<up1d7mius6192c@corp.supernews.com>... > All: > K > My company was recently purchased (ie: merged) with another, and we would M > like to change references in our programs from  our old company name to the  > new company name.  > F > I have done a VMS search through the EXE's and found the string "ABCD > COMPANY" (our old name).  I would like to change it to "XYZ Corp". > N > What would be the easiest way to change it?  (is there a patch utility?  canK > I use TPU or a variant?  should I write a quick program (Basic is what we  > have)? > N > I would make the assumption that the replace string would have to be exactlyN > the same size as the source string.  This would not be a problem, assuming I > can pad with spaces. > N > Is there anything I need to worry about?  Does VMS use any type of checksums: > (created when the EXE is built) to verify it at runtime? > N > Note that we would also like to do this without recompiling the programs, asK > this affects a number of programs and  recompiling would probably require H > retesting based.  Yes, in my gut I believe patching the image would be/ > 'safer' than recompiling the whole enchilada.  > 
 > Lou Solomon ) > CCH-LIS nee' Intercounty Clearance Corp - If you are on a VAX there is a patch utility  J you will need to PATCH/ABSOLUTE using an offset from the start of the fileF If you are using an alpha there is a utility DBS-PATCH on freeware cds- I would also use DIFF/MODE=HEX to verify this ' (you will take a backup first I assume)  Phil   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 02:15:08 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: CLD question ' Message-ID: <3D8FD059.F229552D@fsi.net>    "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > c > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3D8C3467.3D36636A@videotron.ca>... = > > Thanks for all your comments. I think I have found a way:  > >  > > DEFINE VERB CHOCOLATE ) > >       QUALIFIER LIST, syntax=list_syn ; > >       PARAMETER P1, required,prompt="Enter pastry name" ! > >       QUALIFIER WHIPPED_CREAM  > >       QUALIFIER MOUSSE > >       QUALIFIER DARK > >  > > DEFINE SYNTAX list_syn  > >       QUALIFIER LIST,default > >       NOPARAMETER G > >       QUALIFIER OUTPUT, value (default="SYS$OUTPUT", type=$OUTFILE)  > >  > > R > > when you say CHOCOLATE /LIST, the /LIST is consumed and disapears. This is whyN > > one must make /LIST appear in the alternate syntax as a default qualifier,* > > otherwise one would have to specicify:? > > CHOCOLATE /LIST /LIST. Took a while to figure that one out.  > E > So what does this CHOCOLATE program do? Is this for the (Star Trek) % > Enterprise Make a Meal machine? :-)   < I think he may be porting something I once heard of known asC "Godivaware". I had originally hoped it was more closely related to 9 Victoria's Secret or Fredrick's of Hollywood, but ... ;-)   C Does anyone have the text of the old "REQUEST/PIZZA" article? Dunno D where I first saw it, maybe a Kevin G. Barkes column or something. IC remember there being some debate about what constituted a "standard < DECpizza", but that's about it. Yahoo didn't return anythingB interesting, except some reference to an HTTP request for pizza...   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2002 19:24:05 -0700/ From: stuie_norris@yahoo.com.au (Stuart Norris) < Subject: DECServer 90M and 900TM port setup for DCPS printer= Message-ID: <51262235.0209241824.21ca89a6@posting.google.com>    Hello,  = In the DCPS examples there are setup files for the ports on a  DECServer 100, 200 and 500.   @ Do similar script /lists of settings exist for DECServer 90M and 900TM?  C I am particularly interested in the setting for queuing on the port  and the server.    Here is my current port setup.  4 Port  2: DCPS TEST                     Server: VILHH  F Character Size:            8           Input Speed:               4800F Flow Control:            XON           Output Speed:              4800F Parity:                 None           Signal Control:        Disabled7 Stop Bits:           Dynamic                              F Access:               Remote           Local Switch:              NoneF Backwards Switch:       None           Name:                    PORT_2F Break:                 Local           Session Limit:                1F Forwards Switch:        None           Type:                      AnsiF Default Protocol:        LAT           Default Menu:              NoneF Autolink Timer One:10 Two:10           Dialer Script:             None   Preferred Service: None  Authorized Groups:   0 (Current)  Groups:   0   Enabled Characteristics:( Input Flow Control,  Output Flow Control   and for the server:   E Network Access SW V2.3B for DS90M  FT47.03-60.1  ROM 4.0  Uptime: 262  21:52:55  F Address:   08-00-2C-A1-E2-21   Name:   DS90MH              Number:     0    Identification:  DS90M H  C Circuit Timer:            80           Password Limit:            3 D Console Port:              1           Prompt:              DS90MH> C Inactivity Timer:         30           Queue Limit:             200 C Keepalive Timer:          80           Retransmit Limit:         50 C Multicast Timer:          30           Session Limit:           128 C Node Limit:             None           Software:             MNENG2 C                                        TFTP Host:              None    Service Groups:    Enabled Characteristics:' Announcements,  Broadcast,  Dump,  Lock    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:27:14 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ' Subject: Re: Disaster-Tolerant clusters ' Message-ID: <3D8FB712.2BE11AA9@fsi.net>    Bob Ceculski wrote:  > ] > Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> wrote in message news:<amk2iv$o6q$1@news1.xs4all.nl>...  > > JF Mezei wrote:  > > > Paul Sture wrote:  > > > Q > > >>About 5 years ago, CSC told me a humble VAX 2000 would be enough to provide L > > >>quorum for a couple of then big Alphas, which were about a mile apart. > > >  > > > M > > > Considering that HP/Compaq have said absolutely nothing about continued T > > > support of VMS on VAX since Sept 7 2001, I would never recommend to someone toS > > > use a VAX in a mission critical environment without the important caveat that O > > > it should be seen as a short term solution since compatibility with newer [ > > > version of VMS on alpha or that IA64 if it ever gets commercialised is not garanteed.  > > I > > True. But a company that has the budget to set up a disaster tolerant K > > cluster can afford an extra DS10L with minimal memory and a small disk.  > > 
 > > Bart Zorn  > D > only $950 at island computers ... I think most corps can pull that > out of petty cash ...   E If the authority who controls the petty cash can be convined to "play  ball"...   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:05:27 -0600 $ From: Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca>2 Subject: DNS question.  TCPWARE 5.5-3 on VMS 7.1-2) Message-ID: <3D90A966.8732842E@cha.ab.ca>   F I have four AS1200's in a VMScluster (nodes A/B/C/D).  One node (C) isD the primary VMS DNS server and the other three are secondary VMS DNSC servers.  Our corporate regional DNS server comes to node C for DNS " resolution for remote VMS clients.G Revising each node's TCPWARE_CONFIGURE.COM seems fairly simple.  I want F to implement the DNS changes on the fly.  What are the implications ofD moving the primary DNS responsibility off node C and assigning it toG node A?   How will current users logged into C and A be affected?  Will  C or A have to be rebooted?      -- Lee   ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authority ? Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC 4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:55:00 +0200 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>6 Subject: Re: DNS question.  TCPWARE 5.5-3 on VMS 7.1-25 Message-ID: <amqce8$81q42$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>   3 "Lee Y T Mah" <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> schreef in bericht # news:3D90A966.8732842E@cha.ab.ca... H > I have four AS1200's in a VMScluster (nodes A/B/C/D).  One node (C) isF > the primary VMS DNS server and the other three are secondary VMS DNSE > servers.  Our corporate regional DNS server comes to node C for DNS $ > resolution for remote VMS clients.I > Revising each node's TCPWARE_CONFIGURE.COM seems fairly simple.  I want H > to implement the DNS changes on the fly.  What are the implications ofF > moving the primary DNS responsibility off node C and assigning it toI > node A?   How will current users logged into C and A be affected?  Will  > C or A have to be rebooted?  > L I guess it depends on what you want to do. Nodes A and C do not change their
 IP addresses? L If they don't, then C may be reduced to a slave DNS server and A promoted toJ master. In that case neither A nor C need to be rebooted. However, clientsB that have only A or only C registered as DNS server cannot resolve
 nodenames.  I If C and A also exchange IP addresses then a reboot may still be avoided. I The ARP caches of other nodes in your local area network will be confused  during a short period of time.   Hans   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 20:44:38 -0400 , From: "David Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com> Subject: DS10L's for USD889 ? Message-ID: <zkOj9.5021$J91.422657@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>    DS10L  512MB  No Floppy or CD  60GB Hard disk Dual 10/100 Ethernet
 1 PCI Slot   Call or email with order   Tel: 877 636 4332  Island Computers sales@islandco.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:06:57 -0500  From: don.rogstad@dalsemi.com  Subject: Hardware flow control1 Message-ID: <02092415065755@dscis7-0.dalsemi.com>   E Sorry the original message came out in HTML format.  Let's try again:   E Does anyone have examples of implementing hardware flow control on a  # terminal port for use with QIO(W)s?   G I have AlphaServer 1000A 5/400 Hobbyist machine running OpenVMS V7.2-1  K with Compaq C V6.4-008.   I have an external device (specialized hardware,  J not a modem) connected to the TTA0: port which communicates at 9600 Baud, I eightbit, no parity and hardware flow control.   When the port is set to  K NOMODEM, I do not get any response from the device.   When the port is set  J to MODEM, I lose the first character of the response (and usually get the K "%LOGIN-F-NOTMODEM, OpenVMS host system modem not wired correctly; contact  9 system manager" OPCOM message).  But I do get a response.   I    It looks like if the port is set to NOMODEM, I have to handle raising  I and lowering DTR, DSR, CTS, etc. signals.  I have never programmed using  H QIO's so this is a first for me and do not know how to control the flow M control.  Do I have to track DTR, DSR, etc. signalling inside the program?    : Will OpenVMS turn off CTS if the buffers get full or do I?  L Also, if I read the manuals correctly, then to send a break, I have perform:6 	1) Send QIO with IO$_SENSEMODE to get characteristicsD 	2) Send QIO with IO$_SETMODE with TT$M_BREAK or'ed with the parity             receive above 	3) wait a period of time = 	4) Send QIO with IO$_SETMODE with TT$M_BREAK bit turned off. 8 Question: How long is the period of time supposed to be?  J I have looked at the programs in Sys$Examples, and freeware, but have not 6 found any the handle breaks and hardware flow control.   Thanks,  Don Rogstad    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:48:08 GMT + From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> ? Subject: Re: Hardware flow control to terminal port using QIO's * Message-ID: <3D90A7DA.C7F7AEE@ins-msi.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > # > In case you didn't have the info:  > , > An MMJ connector on the terminal side has: > 	 > 1 - DTR 
 > 2 - TD +
 > 3 - TD -
 > 4 - RD +
 > 5 - RD -	 > 6 - DSR  > M > The cable gets inverted so that DTR gets fed to DSR at the other device, TD  > gets fed to RD etc.    Gentle correction:  	   1 - DTR 
   2 - TD +
   3 - TD -
   4 - RD -
   5 - RD +	   6 - DSR   4 The signals are mirror image connector to connector.  
 Jeff Campbell  n8wxs@arrl.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:09:20 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ? Subject: Re: Hardware flow control to terminal port using QIO's , Message-ID: <3D8FC941.9DE8F8FB@videotron.ca>   > Don Rogstad wrote: > F > Does anyone have examples of implementing hardware flow control on a% > terminal port for use with QIO(W)s? 3 On VMS, there are 2 types of hardware flow control: 	 	COMMSYNC  	MODEM  I MODEM is designed more for dial-up connections, and has various timers to ; ensure that a modem will hangup of you don't login etc etc.   8 COMMSYNC was added later to support stuff like printers.  L In both cases, it is the hardware which handles the flow control, not the OS< itself. (the OS just sets the right bits in the controller).    H Beware, I am not sure if your TTA0: ports actually support hardware flowL control. You may be getting DTR out of the port, but not sure you're getting# anything else except RD SD and GND.   N The MMJ to DB25 adaptors from Digital did not have any connections between theL RTS/CTS on the DB25 to any lead on the MMJ side. On those connectors, pins 4% and 5 (RTS/CTS) were wired together , I pins 6 and 8 were wired together (DSR and CD)  and connected to the first N conductor, and Pin 20 (DTR) connected to the last connector (6). (or the other way round).   N If you have access to the IO driver manual, (probably on the VMS documentationL web site, I think it is under another name now), look at the terminal driverI section. There is an excellent diagram of the logic that drives the modem D signals and how VMS acts on them (eg: the "modem not wired correctly message").    M If you start a connection with a /MODEM port, there is a 30 second timer that I starts, and if within that 30 seconds, VMS hasn't see all the right modem ( control signals, it will drop the line.   I From a programming point of view,  you don't need to worry about the flow K control, that is all done behind the scenes for you. (your app will go into I LEF if you try to write too much to a port that is "X-offed" (either with  X-off or through RTS/CTS).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:23:37 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ? Subject: Re: Hardware flow control to terminal port using QIO's , Message-ID: <3D8FCC99.70F27E95@videotron.ca>   > Don Rogstad wrote:H >    Also, if I read the manuals correctly, then to send a break, I have
 > perform:? >         1) Send QIO with IO$_SENSEMODE to get characteristics L >         2) Send QIO with IO$_SETMODE with TT$M_BREAK or'ed with the parity > receive above " >         3) wait a period of timeF >         4) Send QIO with IO$_SETMODE with TT$M_BREAK bit turned off.: > Question: How long is the period of time supposed to be?  M The VT420 keeps the line in BREAK state for 275 ms. Anything between that andOM one second should be fine. (depends on what wait function you are using, someE$ garantee only 1 second granularity).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:08:09 -0400E- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ? Subject: Re: Hardware flow control to terminal port using QIO'sg, Message-ID: <3D8FD706.5187D970@videotron.ca>  ! In case you didn't have the info:r  * An MMJ connector on the terminal side has:   1 - DTRt 2 - TD + 3 - TD - 4 - RD + 5 - RD - 6 - DSR3  K The cable gets inverted so that DTR gets fed to DSR at the other device, TD8 gets fed to RD etc.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:23:44 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>d9 Subject: Re: Hardware Mirroring 'vs' Software Mirroring ?e' Message-ID: <3D8FB641.78B15EE6@fsi.net>s   Rob Brooks wrote:i > 5 > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:o > > Jason O'Donnell wrote: > >>L > >> > To me, the biggest advantage is the fact you eliminate the shadow-setM > >> > merging resulting from VMS crashes and other issues like files open at.A > >> > system-shutdown time that result in full-merges on reboot.n > >>D > >> With improvements made with mini-merges, hbvs is a good choice. > >eI > > Trouble is, of course, that mini-merges don't occur when a shadow-setsJ > > inconsistency is detected when the volume(s) is(are) MOUNTed at system. > > start-up time - it always be a full merge. > J > The above statement will not be true for disks attached to HSG80's.  TheP > goal of the HSG80 mini-merge project is to do mini-merges as much as possible,K > falling back to a full merge only as a last resort.  If the inconsistencyo. > can be resolved by a mini-merge, it will be. > L > I can't give you an example of the type of problem that could cause a fullO > merge; a full merge would be needed only if the context needed for mini-mergeA2 > has been destroyed.  That shouldn't happen . . .  G O.k. You've piqued my interest: under what circumstances would a rebootn not create a situation where  # > the context needed for mini-mergeh > has been destroyed   ?s   --   David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:00:29 +0100n( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>9 Subject: Re: Hardware Mirroring 'vs' Software Mirroring ?t) Message-ID: <3D901B9D.3DDEA7E9@127.0.0.1>(   Rob Brooks wrote:e > L > I can't give you an example of the type of problem that could cause a fullO > merge; a full merge would be needed only if the context needed for mini-mergee2 > has been destroyed.  That shouldn't happen . . .  F Is the example when a system crashes? the 'dirty' bit is set on both /H all members of a HBVS due to improper dismount, and the operating systemD software will perform a full merge by default. (Also interested in a reply to David's response).e   -- u? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencest nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:17:29 GMTn1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>t/ Subject: Re: How to run a C program on VAX/VMS?t' Message-ID: <3D8FC2D9.72DC979D@fsi.net>h   Alan Greig wrote:o > 7 > On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:42:18 GMT, "David J. Dachtera"m  > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: >  > >uI > >Likewise, in the realms of DEC-heritage o.s.-es, the compilers producetD > >object code and the LINKers (sometimes known as "Task Builder"'s) > >produce runnable binaries.t > @EXECUTE FRED.FORh > Fortran:        Fred > Link:   Loadingt" > [LNKXCT Begin Program Execution] > F > Or something close to the above for TOPS-10 and TOPS-20. Never couldA > figure out why VMS never implemented the rich "COMPIL(e)" classnD > commands directly in DCL - although there was a (substantial) .COM@ > implementation that shipped on the TOPS/VMS integration tapes.  H At Control Data Institute, we had this utility called "Load-and-Go". TheB job card was "*LGO", right after the source deck of your RPG-II or Fortran compile.   -- e David J. Dachtera- dba DJE Systems- http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:20:16 +0200b@ From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@mail.tele.dk>% Subject: Re: HP to push .NET big timel+ Message-ID: <3D91FE60.3070503@mail.tele.dk>d   JF Mezei wrote:t  K > Question: will this have any impact on HP's ability to push non-Microsoft P > products such as VMS ? This sounds much like Bob Palmers  deals with MicrosoftU > which resulted in Digital sabotaging ist own products in order to push Bill Gates'.u  0 It is difficult to predict - espcially about the future !   :-)u  8 When I see this HP & MS .NET announcement and the recent4 HP & BEA WebLogic announcement, then I conclude that5 HP is doing like IBM: let the different product lines 7 compete against each other and the external competitors  and let the customers decide.n  4 HP is a huge company. They have lot of MS technology3 based customers. They can either start selling .NET 3 technology to those or say goodbye to that businessb- (and it is way bigger than the VMS business).E  4 IBM has no problems selling both Java technology and2 MS technology. And if HP is smart then HP will not have a problem either.  2 What HP do in the .NET technology market is rather/ uninteresting, because I am very sure that .NETe will not be ported to VMS.  / It is IMHO extremely important that VMS is partt of all HP's Java initiatives !  1 So this announcement does not worry me. But other  may read it differently.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:53:42 -0400-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ! Subject: HP to push .NET big timec, Message-ID: <3D8FEFBC.B8EBCDF3@videotron.ca>  I Question: will this have any impact on HP's ability to push non-MicrosoftpN products such as VMS ? This sounds much like Bob Palmers  deals with MicrosoftS which resulted in Digital sabotaging ist own products in order to push Bill Gates'.g    A Microsoft, Hewlett Packard Plan to Jointly Provide .NET Services s     9/23/02 10:25pm      Associated Press  M   REDMOND, Wash. -- Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) and Hewlett Packard Co. (HPQ) willrF spend $50  million over the next two and a half years to add sales andG technical personnel to help drive adoption by businesses of Microsoft's- .NET-based software.  K   HP, based in Palo Alto, Calif., and Redmond-based Microsoft plan to spenduK about $25 million  each, said Rick Fricchione, vice president of Enterprise  Ready Microsoft Services at HP.t  D   A formal announcement of the new effort was scheduled for Tuesday.  L   HP will add 1,800 to 2,000 new salespeople around the world in addition toL training another 3000  existing workers on promoting .NET-based software. InK addition, it will train another 5,000 of its software consultants, customeroK support and other workers who work with companies on selecting software forh their businesses.R  K   .NET is Microsoft's technology for delivering so-called "Web services" tolK companies and people.  The technology relies on a programming standard that M allows computer networks to exchange information automatically, regardless of.7 operating system, language, software program or device.u  J   Microsoft envisions its own developers and others creating programs thatE take advantage of that platform to create programs for businesses andaI individuals. For example, programs could allow companies to automaticallyeM connect with their suppliers to handle everything from replenishing inventory L when needed to paying invoices. Individuals could have doctor's appointments automatically scheduledm   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 05:28:44 GMT % From: "-Andy-" <acs@fcgnet.works.net>I% Subject: Re: HP to push .NET big timel= Message-ID: <Xns9293E3322B3Bacsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>   ; JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> enlightened us withb4 news:3D8FEFBC.B8EBCDF3@videotron.ca on 24 Sep 2002:   = > Question: will this have any impact on HP's ability to push < > non-Microsoft products such as VMS ? This sounds much like= > Bob Palmers  deals with Microsoft which resulted in Digital < > sabotaging ist own products in order to push Bill Gates'.   l@ Well.... all they have to do is make sure the version(s) of SOAP> available with VMS  can interoperate with the version in .NET.  , Of course, is .NET actually "finished" yet ?   -Andy- ---    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:37:35 GMTi From: lbohan@dbc..spamless..coms% Subject: Re: HP to push .NET big time 8 Message-ID: <opf0puc690g4ntiotr8ab8m7tv52gi7kmi@4ax.com>  , On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:53:42 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:d  L >  HP, based in Palo Alto, Calif., and Redmond-based Microsoft plan to spendL >about $25 million  each, said Rick Fricchione, vice president of Enterprise  >Ready Microsoft Services at HP.  = I'd wonder why HP wants to donate $25M towards a MSFT effort;@= (You'd think Billy's pockets would be deep enough to buy the w  whole lunch? ...)  < Terry Shannon's remarks inre MSFT organ donors come to mind;% that much hasn't changed, apparently.y   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2002 21:14:08 -0700# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) % Subject: Re: HP to push .NET big timem= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0209242014.75b0f092@posting.google.com>n  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3D8FEFBC.B8EBCDF3@videotron.ca>... K > Question: will this have any impact on HP's ability to push non-MicrosoftnP > products such as VMS ? This sounds much like Bob Palmers  deals with MicrosoftU > which resulted in Digital sabotaging ist own products in order to push Bill Gates'.  >  > C > Microsoft, Hewlett Packard Plan to Jointly Provide .NET Services   >  >   9/23/02 10:25pm  >  >   Associated Press > O >   REDMOND, Wash. -- Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) and Hewlett Packard Co. (HPQ) willoH > spend $50  million over the next two and a half years to add sales andI > technical personnel to help drive adoption by businesses of Microsoft'sw > .NET-based software. > M >   HP, based in Palo Alto, Calif., and Redmond-based Microsoft plan to spendnM > about $25 million  each, said Rick Fricchione, vice president of Enterprisec! > Ready Microsoft Services at HP.e > F >   A formal announcement of the new effort was scheduled for Tuesday. > N >   HP will add 1,800 to 2,000 new salespeople around the world in addition toN > training another 3000  existing workers on promoting .NET-based software. InM > addition, it will train another 5,000 of its software consultants, customerIM > support and other workers who work with companies on selecting software fora > their businesses.l > M >   .NET is Microsoft's technology for delivering so-called "Web services" toaM > companies and people.  The technology relies on a programming standard thatiO > allows computer networks to exchange information automatically, regardless ofk9 > operating system, language, software program or device.q > L >   Microsoft envisions its own developers and others creating programs thatG > take advantage of that platform to create programs for businesses and5K > individuals. For example, programs could allow companies to automaticallyyO > connect with their suppliers to handle everything from replenishing inventory N > when needed to paying invoices. Individuals could have doctor's appointments > automatically scheduledi Anyone here getting "Deja vu"?E It sounds like Microsoft found an old word document in their archivesoG called "NT Affinity program", changed a few key words and created this.gI The $25 million that Microsoft contributes will be insignificant in termsaB of the software they shift though HP (it worked last time though). Phil   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 04:43:23 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>i% Subject: Re: HP to push .NET big timev? Message-ID: <K9bk9.393917$kp.1182685@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>u  0 "dooley" <dooleys@snowy.net.au> wrote in message7 news:1ca82fc6.0209242014.75b0f092@posting.google.com...r: > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( news:<3D8FEFBC.B8EBCDF3@videotron.ca>...? > > Question: will this have any impact on HP's ability to pushg
 non-Microsoft.H > > products such as VMS ? This sounds much like Bob Palmers  deals with	 MicrosoftaJ > > which resulted in Digital sabotaging ist own products in order to push Bill Gates'. > >e > >sD > > Microsoft, Hewlett Packard Plan to Jointly Provide .NET Services > >o > >   9/23/02 10:25pmk > >  > >   Associated Press > >LL > >   REDMOND, Wash. -- Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) and Hewlett Packard Co. (HPQ) willJ > > spend $50  million over the next two and a half years to add sales andK > > technical personnel to help drive adoption by businesses of Microsoft'so > > .NET-based software. > >oI > >   HP, based in Palo Alto, Calif., and Redmond-based Microsoft plan to- spend-D > > about $25 million  each, said Rick Fricchione, vice president of
 Enterprise# > > Ready Microsoft Services at HP.f > > H > >   A formal announcement of the new effort was scheduled for Tuesday. > >cD > >   HP will add 1,800 to 2,000 new salespeople around the world in addition tosC > > training another 3000  existing workers on promoting .NET-basedI software. InF > > addition, it will train another 5,000 of its software consultants, customerK > > support and other workers who work with companies on selecting softwared foru > > their businesses.a > >tL > >   .NET is Microsoft's technology for delivering so-called "Web services" toJ > > companies and people.  The technology relies on a programming standard thatC > > allows computer networks to exchange information automatically,e
 regardless ofe; > > operating system, language, software program or device.o > > I > >   Microsoft envisions its own developers and others creating programs  thatI > > take advantage of that platform to create programs for businesses andt? > > individuals. For example, programs could allow companies toN
 automatically G > > connect with their suppliers to handle everything from replenishingm	 inventory C > > when needed to paying invoices. Individuals could have doctor'sn appointments > > automatically scheduledz  > Anyone here getting "Deja vu"?G > It sounds like Microsoft found an old word document in their archivesrI > called "NT Affinity program", changed a few key words and created this. K > The $25 million that Microsoft contributes will be insignificant in termsmD > of the software they shift though HP (it worked last time though). > Phil  K We've been riding out this HAILSTORM for well over two years now. Have seen-: early descriptions, not a heck of a lot is being said now.  G FYI the early descriptions bear scant resemblance to the original Risky  Affinity Scheme.  E Translated from Attic Greek, here are two pages of the .NET Manifestot   The Framework....     7 A new foundation for building applications, including:o" -The Common Language Runtime (CLR)" -The .NET Framework class library:8 ASP.NET, improved support for building web applications3 ADO.NET for access to XML data and relational datal( Windows Forms for building Windows GUIs
 Much more- It's the replacement for most of Windows DNA 	 -And morel5 (It's the "and more" that should set off alarm bells)      The Compaq Conclusionh  * The .NET platform is a large step forward" -It's the evolution of Windows DNA
 It includes:e% -The 3rd generation Client Experienced -Building Block Web Services -The .NET Enterprise Servers -The .NET FrameworkPG .NET maps closely onto Compaq's roadmap and benefits every area of oura product line    E Color me stupid, but might this be a way for Microsoft to achieve itsc4 ambition of RENTING software rather than selling it?  4 And, mayhap, the long-coveted key to the enterprise?   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2002 13:37:25 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestionm3 Message-ID: <NZa6rELF2TLl@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  a In article <qF_j9.18$hy3.1606691@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Mike Kier" <michael.kier@compaq.com> writes:s > M > I loved the 2-speed dash-mounted automatic transmission control, though :-)r  F    You mean the one that looked like an overgrown lawn mower throttle?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:43:34 -0500l$ From: "Art Beane" <beane@petris.com>! Subject: RE: Marketing suggestione7 Message-ID: <003301c263fa$498f0a00$392810ac@petris.com>   G Bill Todd said: "... Virtually all the people who buy SUVs ... won't be  fording deep streams ..."-  G -- except when they're driving the streets of Houston ;-) -- Last year,@D the "puddle" on highway 59 a couple miles from our house was 22 feetF deep (http://www.floodsofhouston.com/TimBoczon/hwy59c.jpg) and streets. often have about 8 inches during a heavy rain.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:11:48 GMTl1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestionr& Message-ID: <3D8FC184.AD65FD5@fsi.net>   Sue Skonetski wrote: > N > ok here is a nasty thought.  Person puts VMS cd in a PC crashes PC and comesI > up with a screen saver saying.  If this had been VMS you would still bet
 > running. > % > I know its not politically correct.t  3 ...but it *IS* deliciously mischievous and naughty!r  
 Excellent!   -- B David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/c   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:13:43 GMT.1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestion ' Message-ID: <3D8FC1F8.98E7B0F0@fsi.net>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:a > 7 > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in messagea1 > news:amj1fq$672pa$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de...cK > > In article <R50j9.10791$q41.6999@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,e) > > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:nM > > > As found on-line today while searching for reviews of a new book, "Highn > AndrN > > > Mighty - SUVs: The World's Most Dangerous Vehicles And How They Got That > > > Way".s > >n9 > > Not having read it, I am obviously not an expert but,h( > >  it smacks of "Unsafe at any speed". > N > Yup. The book that prevented me from getting a car I wanted in the mid-60's: > a turbocharged Corvair Corsa.-  > I thought Corvair had an engine (belt) driven supercharger...?   --   David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemsu http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:14:56 GMTD1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestion ' Message-ID: <3D8FC240.72678C9E@fsi.net>   $ "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" wrote: >  > <sarcasm>  > Those *eeeevilllll* SUVs,s > </sarcasm>9 > not to mention minivans, have taken over the automotiveE8 > niche once occupied by a now-extinct vehicle driven by8 > many parents in the epoch when I was a kid; namely the > station wagon. > . > And they got comparable miles-per-gallon....  ? My '87 Taurus wagon got just around 20 MPG fairly consistently.c   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsu http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 02:48:46 GMTt1 From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie)s! Subject: Re: Marketing suggestionp9 Message-ID: <iu9k9.4512$Fw2.128469@twister.austin.rr.com>   . JF Mezei (jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca) wrote: : Jerry Leslie wrote:iC : > Not even one of these SUVs could have dealt with Tropical Storml : > Allison's flooding <G>:a : > - : >      http://poseur.4x4.org/futuresuv.htmle :  : J : Thanks for the link.  This would actually be very good for the economy. L : With those Kenworth trucks becoming mass produced, it would significantly K : lower the costs of 18 wheel trucks and thus make truck shipments cheaper fL : and thus make the USA economy much more comsptitive with lower prices for  : products etc.w :   " Sorry, the "<G>" was too subtle...  )      http://poseur.4x4.org/futuresuv.htmlo      The Future of SUVs-  C     "In case you can't tell, this isn't for real.  It's just a jokeo+                                   already!"9    2 --Jerry Leslie   (my opinions are strictly my own)9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2002 13:45:18 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)l0 Subject: Re: New Miss America - Miss Ill-a-Noise3 Message-ID: <nLybCn7nt9gA@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <3+sdSiSwGsbh@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) writes:  > @ > Maybe someone can explain why the capital of my home state is @ > called Duh Moin and the city in Illinois is called Dez Planez ? > instead of Duh Plane (as spoken by Tatoo from Fantasy Island)e  B    Because the folks in Chicago can't pronounce Des Plains, and if@    they tried they'd probably think it was at Ohare.  When I was.    living there, it was pronounced des plainz.  B    Your lucky if they can pronounce Illinois without your looking     for two of them.l  B    Native Iowans have no such difficulty pronouncing the obviously     French name of my birthplace.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:23:01 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a0 Subject: Re: New Miss America - Miss Ill-a-Noise' Message-ID: <3D8FC410.B3C791BE@fsi.net>    Michael Austin wrote:h > E > > I get a kick out of the Weather Channel folks who say "Miz-UR-ah"vI > > instead of "Miz-UR-ee", which is what *I* grew up with in the Western6 > > Suburbs of Chicago.  > >0 > F > I am in the process of relocating to KC Miz-UR-ee and have been toldG > that there are some southern Miz-UR-ee locations where they do indeed  > pronounce it  Miz-UR-ah. > H > I do recall Barabara Walter using the correct Spanish pronunciation ofJ > Buena Vista, however, in Virginia it is pronounced Bew-NAH Vista instead > of Bway-nah Vee-sta:  E They probably also say "Maw-nah LO" instead of "mah-Ooh-nah LO-ah" or ! "Mah-we" instead of "mah-OOH-ee".o  F Maybe some native German speakers could address the issue of Americans? calling the shoe company "floor-shime" instead of "flors-hime".b   -- r David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/v   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:33:07 GMTc1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> , Subject: Re: New www.openvms.compaq.com site' Message-ID: <3D8FC683.BCDD9893@fsi.net>:   Kenneth Farmer wrote:l >  > ----- Original Message -----2 > From: "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> > Newsgroups: comp.os.vms + > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 12:24 PMm* > Subject: New www.openvms.compaq.com site > 0 > > The site www.openvms.compaq.com is changing./ > > Now it is looking like the HP site standardu! > > except some links.  May be ino > > the future it will becomed > >r > > www.openvms.hp.com > >  > > Dont make mistakes withi > >n > > www.openview.hp.com ! :-)) > >t$ > > But what about putting a link to > >t > > www.openvms.org there????y > 9 > You want that payment in cash, check or money order? :)e  8 Hardware and/or software would likely suffice, I'm sure.   -- o David J. Dachterab dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:12:58 GMTr( From: Alder <PGDEHMKOKIMD@spammotel.com>+ Subject: Re: OpenOffice ODBC and Oracle Rdba, Message-ID: <3D90FF4E.2060405@spammotel.com>   Tony Scandora wrote:L > I run the old ODBC 2.10.14.0 driver to connect to VAX Rdb 6.1.  It vaariesL > between slow and lethargic, but it works for Microsoft clients.  You might5 > want to try it and see how it works for OpenOffice.  > 3 > Tony Scandora, Argonne National Lab, 630-252-7541  > scandora@cmt.anl.gov > 7 > "Alder" <PGDEHMKOKIMD@spammotel.com> wrote in message ( > news:3D894B2B.8090203@spammotel.com... >  >>Bob M. Lee wrote:e >>J >>>One other thing - Upgrade to Oracle Rdb v7.1 - SQL*Net for Rdb (NET8) -J >>>will support JDBC thin-clients with better SQL*Plus language compliance7 >>>than before. (Besides that Rdb v7.1 SQL likes JAVA.)p >>>I >>C >>No chance of that, I'm afraid.  I'm only one of many users of thenI >>databases, and my trials with OO and ODBC are not on the admin's radar.  >>	 >>Cheers,i >> >>Aldere >> >  >  >   E I certainly would.  Can you point to a download link, or send it via   e-mail attachment?   Thanks,  Aldert   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:39:13 +1000s( From: CSSDEC <systemmail.its@qut.edu.au> Subject: opensource mail* Message-ID: <3D8FD051.FFA12F4C@qut.edu.au>  C Is there an opensource program available that can send mail with ane7 attachment using multinet protocol on OpenVms V6.2-1H3?> thanks  ...  Terry   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:51:59 -0500.7 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com>e Subject: Re: opensource mailG Message-ID: <craigberry-54B712.21515823092002@news.directvinternet.com>/  * In article <3D8FD051.FFA12F4C@qut.edu.au>,*  CSSDEC <systemmail.its@qut.edu.au> wrote:  E > Is there an opensource program available that can send mail with anN9 > attachment using multinet protocol on OpenVms V6.2-1H3?o > thanks  ...  Terry  , Search the archives for MPACK or MIME::Lite.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 02:58:56 GMTe% From: "-Andy-" <acs@fcgnet.works.net>a Subject: Re: opensource mail> Message-ID: <Xns9292E93DAC21Facsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>  = "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com> enlightenedy us witho> news:craigberry-54B712.21515823092002@news.directvinternet.com on 23 Sep 2002:   , > In article <3D8FD051.FFA12F4C@qut.edu.au>,, >  CSSDEC <systemmail.its@qut.edu.au> wrote: > 9 >> Is there an opensource program available that can sendg= >> mail with an attachment using multinet protocol on OpenVmsa >> V6.2-1H3? thanks  ...  Terryr > . > Search the archives for MPACK or MIME::Lite. >   ; Pine ? Last time I checked it did attachments. At one pointt< someone (besides the Innosoft version in PMDF) had ported it to VMS.    -Andy-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:40:37 -0400D  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: opensource mail6 Message-ID: <1020923233959.42280B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  " On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, CSSDEC wrote:  E > Is there an opensource program available that can send mail with anm9 > attachment using multinet protocol on OpenVms V6.2-1H3?- > thanks  ...  Terry   Pine.  See Freeware CD.      -- a John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Sep 02 23:55:11 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)o( Subject: OpenVMS 25th anniversary survey) Message-ID: <u6uIcc+ku0Pr@elias.decus.ch>o  4 For those who haven't noticed, A new survey is up at# http://openvms.compaq.com, entitled1  ! "OpenVMS 25th anniversary survey"a  9 It asks for various items of feedback, so here's a chancee to provide it.   __
 Paul Sture Switzerland0   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:09:09 GMTi, From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org>, Subject: Re: OpenVMS 25th anniversary survey> Message-ID: <9o5k9.39714$jF4.3034605@twister.southeast.rr.com>  , http://openvms.compaq.com isn't working.  :)  6 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/25th/survey.html   --   Kenneth Farmer http://www.Tru64.org http://www.OpenVMS.org http://www.LinuxHPC.orga      6 "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote in message# news:u6uIcc+ku0Pr@elias.decus.ch... 6 > For those who haven't noticed, A new survey is up at% > http://openvms.compaq.com, entitledo >a# > "OpenVMS 25th anniversary survey"h >r; > It asks for various items of feedback, so here's a chance  > to provide it. >I > __ > Paul Sture
 > Switzerlando   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:39:18 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>T, Subject: Re: OpenVMS 25th anniversary survey, Message-ID: <3D90E985.AF82C146@videotron.ca>   Paul Sture wrote:M > 6 > For those who haven't noticed, A new survey is up at% > http://openvms.compaq.com, entitled   ( it is http://www.openvms.compaq.com ...   L The survey is interesting, but I chose not to answer it. It seems structuredJ more towards a single CIO for a single company versus consultants who have worked multiple sites.  G For instance, I have setup a disaster tolerant site in the past, but mylN current systems are not those systems so it gets sort of confusing to answer aQ survey that is a "25 anniversary" as opposed to "what is your system like today".n  N And while my first encoubter with VMS would have been around 1980-1981 (friendL gave me an account when he was at HEC (business school)  and I played enoughL with it to love it and later recommendeed it and installed it at a job - oneN example of why having VMS at educational institutions is important - note thatJ my formal education was on IBM mainframes running MUSIC and MVS), but thatN exposure to VMS on the stolen account given by a friend was enough to convince8 me of the superiority. HELP is what really impressed me.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 01:25:45 GMT , From: "Kenneth Block" <krblock@computer.org>T Subject: Re: Proposal: Retirement of some Components of the Compaq C++ Class Library3 Message-ID: <tg8k9.67$qX3.2127912@news.cpqcorp.net>r  L We have made no presumptions about peoples willingness or ability to recode.E As was stated in the orignal post, our belief is nobody is using this 	 software.l   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2002 23:01:44 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) T Subject: Re: Proposal: Retirement of some Components of the Compaq C++ Class Library3 Message-ID: <df4Blks4f$7R@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  b In article <tg8k9.67$qX3.2127912@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Kenneth Block" <krblock@computer.org> writes:N > We have made no presumptions about peoples willingness or ability to recode.G > As was stated in the orignal post, our belief is nobody is using thise > software.t   That is hard to determine.  H The class of people who would be damaged by this are certainly not those# who keep up to date on comp.os.vms.   / It does not hurt anyone to leave them in place.d> It might hurt someone (and their faith in VMS) to remove them.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 01:37:33 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>nY Subject: Re: Proposal: Retirement of some Components of the Compaq C++ Class Library Libro, Message-ID: <3D914B99.B129FEE8@videotron.ca>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:1 > It does not hurt anyone to leave them in place.f@ > It might hurt someone (and their faith in VMS) to remove them.  N Would these classes require continued Digital/Compaq/Hp/Intel/whoever manpower2 to certify they still work with each new release ?  = Is C++ staying at "Digital" or has it been donated to Intel ?e   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Sep 02 20:43:29 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)o/ Subject: RE: QUEUE MANAGER dying during backups ) Message-ID: <G7zYMj3hP+z5@elias.decus.ch>-   In article <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D506B8EC@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>, "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> writes:rN > I missed some of the emails in this - is the qman dying when these files areL > hit, or just sometime while the backup is running (perhaps overloading theN > disk and causing the qman to complain about disk issues and terminating).... > A Another thought. BACKUP is very agressive in claiming memory whenKB allowed to do so by a large WSQUOTA. Is the Qman being hit by this5 perhaps? What is the exit status of the qman process?T   >  > -----Original Message-----@ > From: Glen Mark Martin [mailto:glenmark@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu] # > Sent: September 23, 2002 11:45 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn1 > Subject: Re: QUEUE MANAGER dying during backupst >  >  >  > Alan E. Feldman wrote: >  > I >> I assume this is not your system disk. Perhaps someone recently moved 2) >> the queue database files to this disk?p >  > G > This is in sys_lcommon, not an actual boot volume. I believe this is I( > where we've had these files all along. >  >   I >> Add /IGNORE=INTERLOCK and try again. Please let us know. Also, please dI >> report, ***in their entirety***, any relevant error messages from the   >> backup job. Thanks. >  > J > Is /ignore=interlock a good idea on a full image backup? I'll give it a D > try when this disk comes around for a full backup again next week. > G > Anyway, below are the messages generated by the backup batch job the v@ > last time this happened. As you can see, BACKUP fails to open K > SYS$QUEUE_MANAGER.QMAN$JOURNAL, so it is unclear to me why QUEUE MANAGER t > is dying.o > J > %BACKUP-I-LBLOVRWRITE, volume label BACKUP       overwritten, new label  > is 17SEP0h > M > %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, 17SEP0 mounted on _YELLOW$MKA100: %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, errorn
 > opening L > DISK$SYS1:[LCOMMON.SYSEXE]QMAN$MASTER.DAT;3 as input -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT,7 > file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening .E > DISK$SYS1:[LCOMMON.SYSEXE]SYS$QUEUE_MANAGER.QMAN$JOURNAL;1 as inputsM > -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening  D > DISK$SYS1:[LCOMMON.SYSEXE]SYS$QUEUE_MANAGER.QMAN$QUEUES;3 as inputL > -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening* > DISK$SYS1:[LCOMMON.SYSEXE]SYSUAF.DAT;19 
 > as input, > -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflictJ > %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, DISK$SYS1:[LCOMMON.SYSMGR]CVCUSER.DAT;3949 data not  > copied, file marked NOBACKUPJ > %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, DISK$SYS1:[LCOMMON.SYSMGR]CVCUSER.DAT;3948 data not  > copied, file marked NOBACKUP" > %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening = > DISK$SYS1:[LCOMMON.SYSMGR]SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL;4 as input.M > -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening eM > DISK$SYS1:[LOCAL21.SYSMGR]ACCOUNTNG.DAT;2262 as input -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT,d7 > file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening pJ > DISK$SYS1:[LOCAL21.SYSMGR]OPERATOR.LOG;57 as input -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT,7 > file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening  L > DISK$SYS1:[LOCAL50.SYSMGR]ACCOUNTNG.DAT;114 as input -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT,6 > file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening+ > DISK$SYS1:[LOCAL50.SYSMGR]OPERATOR.LOG;3 0
 > as input, > -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict" > %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening M > DISK$SYS1:[LOCAL51.SYSMGR]ACCOUNTNG.DAT;2492 as input -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT,d7 > file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening aK > DISK$SYS1:[LOCAL51.SYSMGR]OPERATOR.LOG;102 as input -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, G > file access conflict %BACKUP-I-RESUME, resuming operation on volume 2 5 > %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, 29MAY0 mounted on _YELLOW$MKA100:(J > %BACKUP-I-LBLOVRWRITE, volume label 29MAY0       overwritten, new label  > is 17SE02 M > %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, 17SE02 mounted on _YELLOW$MKA100: %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error-2 > opening DISK$SYS1:[]SECURITY.AUDIT$JOURNAL;4 as  > inputD, > -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflictD > %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening DISK$SYS1:[]SYSUAF.DAT;19 as inputL > -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error openingH > DISK$SYS1:[]SWATCHER.TMP;1 as input -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such fileI > %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening DISK$SYS1:[]ACCOUNTNG.DAT;2262 as inputoL > -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error openingI > DISK$SYS1:[]OPERATOR.LOG;102 as input -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access * > conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening* > DISK$SYS1:[]TAN_SWATCHER_P.LOG;24147 as  > inputn$ > -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such fileJ > %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening DISK$SYS1:[]YELLOW_SWATCHER_P.LOG;24144 
 > as input$ > -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such fileF > %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening DISK$SYS1:[]OPERATOR.LOG;57 as inputL > -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error openingJ > DISK$SYS1:[]ACCOUNTNG.DAT;114 as input -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access+ > conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening  N > DISK$SYS1:[]YELLOW_IMAGES_20020818.DAT;350 as input -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, noI > such file %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening DISK$SYS1:[]OPERATOR.LOG;3 as J > input -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error2 > opening DISK$SYS1:[]VIOLET_SWATCHER_P.LOG;24146 
 > as input$ > -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such fileI > %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening DISK$SYS1:[]ACCOUNTNG.DAT;2492 as inputpM > -SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict %BACKUP-E-OPENIN, error opening  N > DISK$SYS1:[]VIOLET_IMAGES_20020818.DAT;350 as input -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, noF > such file %BACKUP-I-STARTRECORD, starting backup date recording pass >  __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandn   ------------------------------   Date: 24 SEP 2002 20:23:54 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)/ Subject: Re: QUEUE MANAGER dying during backups 2 Message-ID: <24SEP02.20235440@thuria.waisman.wisc>  A In a previous article, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:f  D ->Another thought. BACKUP is very aggressive in claiming memory whenD ->allowed to do so by a large WSQUOTA. Is the Qman being hit by this7 ->perhaps? What is the exit status of the qman process?n  $ Which triggered yet another thought:  F Some of the memory burned by backup is Paged Dynamic Memory (PAGEDYN).E Especially if the files have a lot of ACL's on them (resulting in ACL F blocks being allocated from PAGEDYN). If Pathworks is in use the filesF in shares will have a lot of ACL's. So watch your free space in "PagedD Dynamic Memory" using SHOW MEM/POOL when backup is running. Or lower backup's WSQUOTA.-  G This is a stretch since if this were the problem your system would mostz3 likely be hung. Might be worth looking into though.s   --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madisonl8 --                 karcher.nomorespam@waisman.wisc.edu     ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:09:15 GMTM1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o0 Subject: Re: sys$Pipe and DCL$PATH documentation' Message-ID: <3D8FC0E8.929D9E58@fsi.net>P   Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > ^ > In article <3D8B6387.20800@oracle.com>, norm lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com> writes:E > :try using www.google.com and search for DCL$PATH and then SYS$PIPEl > :r > :Paul Repacholi wrote:7 > :> WHere? I have searched the CDs, but found nothing.r >  >   Re: DCL$PATH > D >   "Automatic Foreign Command" is the magic incantation to look forC >   in the OpenVMS Master Index manual.  (This particular AutomaticrA >   Foreign Command mechanism is documented in the User's Guide.)m > B >   I've previously submitted a problem report against the OpenVMSC >   documentation, requesting that this stuff be made rather easier = >   to find, and that cross-references for DCL$PATH be added.   @ May I be so bold as to suggest that some mention be made of the    $ DIRSYS$SYSTEM:*.EXEu  D ..."feature" of DCL$PATH:? (The missing space above is INTENTIONAL!)  
 Reference:  5 http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/dclinter/sld010.htmn   -- l David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 03:14:12 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 0 Subject: TCPIP: can a channel to BG: be reused ?, Message-ID: <3D9010A0.45F208DD@videotron.ca>  8 Had an application that worked well doing the following:    ASSIGN a channel to TCPIP$DEVICE$ QIO ACPCONTROL resolve the host name7 QIO SETMODE to set the connection to TCPIP, STREAM etc)n   Then, I looped:o 	IO$M_ACCESS to connect to hosto 	write a transaction, 	read response until remore host disconnects 	IO$M_DEACCESS    ; Only at the end would I DASSGN the channel to TCPIP$DEVICE.s    M Now, I have tried a similar technique, but I moved the ACPCONTROL and SETMODEeL to inside the loop since a different host is being used at each iteration ofG the loop. And it fails with a "device is offline" (or something to thatu	 effect). l  L I have temporarily put a $DASSGN at the end of the loop and a $ASSIGN at the top and it works.m    M Was I just lucky with the first program and one should never re-use a channeli to TCPIP$DEVICE ?   L Or is there a way to re-use the channel ? (how does one close the connection to keep the channel active ?)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:17:18 -0700a9 From: "Weiner, Howard (Howie)" <Howiew@ci.portland.or.us>-# Subject: TCPWARE host table loading0H Message-ID: <ED06176444B7D511886300D0B70809FD2FDFA7@ecntexchg.boec.city>   Question for TCPWARE users:oH When I update the host table (TCPWARE:HOSTS.) with a remote computer and it's ip address,G I can not figure out how to 'load' the new table. There is some processf somewhere, that loads theoJ updated table within about five minutes, allowing me to connect to the new networked PC. Can'tRC seem to find out from the manual how to load it. Thanks in advance.2   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:49:34 -0400g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)c, Message-ID: <3D90B3BC.5144A9DA@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote: H > Too sustain the alpha business, I think they would have had to come upJ > with a way to make inexpensive chips for low-end (1 and 2P) systems, andI > sell them in volume.  How many times did DEC/Compaq try to do that, anda; > fail?  Was there a good chance of success on the horizon?l  M never. Remember that as soon as DEC started to build Wintel, a policy was putVN in place to ensure that Alphas were priced higher than wintel in order for one! not to compete against the other.t  K Consider the number of contracts that Digital refused for its expensive FABJE which, as a result, remained way underused.  IBM can afford the fancyiM expensive FABs because it seeks out "foreign" contracts to give its FABs gooddM utilisation rates. Digital wanted to keep it all to itself just in case AlphadM became popular, yet the other foot at Digital made sure Alpha wouldn't becomesE high volume because it was prevented from competing at the lower end.   K Where there is a will, there is a way. Intel was able to make its 8086 gamekL controller into a chip that runs the NASDAQ web site.  Apple's Power PC willJ outlive Alpha. Mikey Dell turned his garage PC assembly into a world classM wintel asembly that makes the big guys hurt because they aren't as efficient.oN The list of major accomplishements is long. Yet, for Digital, it turned into aK failure because they decided they had lost the battle before even trying tos fight. Same for Compaq.e   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2002 15:38:17 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)h9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)n3 Message-ID: <9z2iPDEyR7Kg@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  p In article <oC2k9.250930$z91.10889890@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:   > J > What EV7 brings to *any* system is its on-chip memory controller and itsN > 1.75 MB of on-chip cache.  What EV7 brings to *any MP* system is its on-chipL > routing.  Both reduce surrounding 'glue' chips (including the 8 - 16 MB ofJ > off-chip cache used with EV6 processors:  when you have EV7's 75 ns mainL > memory latency and a large, fast on-chip cache, off-chip cache that's onlyK > about twice as fast as main memory ceases to be cost-effective) and henceo0 > offset the higher cost of the EV7 chip itself. >f  = 	Ah... who cares about cost, that's a benefit given the L3 is = 	unnecessary.  For instance... taking the Power4 and googlingi 	for this we find:   <QUOTE>s  9 The chart was log-log of size of cache/memory that can bet@ accessed at various latencies.  The latencies are in nanoseconds@ and are accurate only to the nearest 10 nsecs from 10-100 nsecs.? and to the nearest 100 nsecs above that point.  Also some of myN> eyeballing is involved here, introducing more room for error. @ There are also several definitions possible for 'latency' and it wasn't specified on the slide.   Size of cache    Latency in     or memory        nsecse 16 KB*             1# 1.4 MB             10              o 5.6 MB             60  128 MB             80c 512 MB             100 64  GB             300  < * I know the L1 Dcache size is 32 KB per core, but the slide indicated 16 KB   ? The other slides were referring to a 1.1 Ghz POWER4 so I assumet8 that is what was assumed for this chart.  You can do the? conversion from nsecs. to cycles then.  Clearly these times (at > least through the cache hierarchy would reduce if for a 1.3Ghz clock rate.f   My interpretation of the sizes:C@ The 1.4 MB is for on-chip L2.  The 5.6 MB is for accessing the 3A other caches on the same MCM (plus the local one).  The 128 MB isp> for all L3's on the same MCM.  The 512 MB includes the L3's on> other MCMs in a 4 MCM system.  I assume the 64 GB of memory is> the maximum for an MCM.  I recollect from IBM public docs that? latency to the other MCM's memory is only about 10% higher thanv the local memory latency.   
 <ENDQUOTE>  B 	So local MCM access to 128 MByte L3 is 80 ns.  Contrast with EV7,B 	200 - 2 MByte pages open (1) (and larger page sizes than that areD 	supported, maybe make it fun and use 512 MByte page sizes?) on EV7 F 	you get 400 MByte of "L3" that is faster and larger than Power4's 128 	MByte L3 shared by cores.  C 	Many ways to slice and dice this, for instance with 5 EV7 CPUs youw? 	have an effective L2 of 5 * 1.5 MByte where the "remote" L2 is': 	slower of course (15 ns router overhead, etc.) yet fasterC 	than 75 ns memory access.  But maybe more impressive would be the aB 	2000 MByte "L3" that is 75 ns local and 100 ns remote access withA 	an average access of 95 ns, 4 times larger than Power4 512 MBytee 	L3 and just as fast.   > 	But the overarching point is... L3 makes no sense for EV7 andE 	the benefit is cheaper (being relative term) system costs (certainlyaF 	cost more if they stuffed a bunch of 128 MByte SRAM L3s in there ;-).  A 	By the way, when Power4 has to go to main memory, as you can see ? 	you have a flat 300 ns access.  Wonderful in many respects but G 	*MUCH* better of course is NUMA where memory access is 75 ns local anduD 	283 ns *WORST* case ( for 51 CPUs, and average is much better than 
 	300 ns)	(2).f   				Rob   B Men with walkie-talkie                  I'm home again to you babeC Men with flashlights waving             You know it makes me wonderoG Up upon the tower                       Sittin' in the quiet slipstreami> The clock reads daylight savin'         Rollin' in the thunder  -                                 -- Neil Youngs  @ (1) http://www.eecs.umich.edu/vlsi_seminar/f01/slides/bannon.pdf     See page 12h  @ (2) http://www.eecs.umich.edu/vlsi_seminar/f01/slides/bannon.pdf     See page 30    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:44:47 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)eB Message-ID: <PN6k9.198708$216.6800832@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messageLE news:rdeininger-2409020639170001@1cust215.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net...MK > In article <TtQj9.241785$z91.10302205@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Billh' > Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:l >  > E > >You're getting more than a bit carried away, Fred.  While there is 	 certainlyvH > >no direct evidence that VMS may soon sleep with the fishes, there are7 > >definitely reasons to worry that it very well might:S > >sI > >1.  The report that less than 3 years ago VMS was scheduled for a codet >          ^^^^^^aF > Report from where?  JF on comp.os.vms?  Gartner?  Some trade rag?  AG > Compaq annual report?  SKxxx?  Special bulletin from a flying saucer?  >nJ > >freeze in 2003.  It escaped that fate at the time, but the fact that it was-B >                                                             ^^^^J > And only 1 line later, you've upgraded the "report" to a "fact".   MaybeB > the flying saucers have recently gotten a bandwidth upgrade. :-) >wG > >considered at all is indicative of VMS's perceived importance to theo CompaqK > >leadership back then (much of which remains in decision-making positionsa at > >The New HP).  >eJ > Have you any credible evidence that a code freeze was either "scheduled" > or "considered"?  K On further reflection I decided that a bit of additional explanation was ingI order.  Since our meeting with Rich 2+ years ago I've been cautious aboutTJ naming him as the source of some of the information I've given out:  whileE the meeting was not specifically confidential nor was any kind of NDAsJ involved, I feel he was pretty honest with us, apprecate that, and haven'tI wanted to do anything that might get him into trouble with any higher-ups)D whose appreciation of honesty might not be as elevated as my own is.  J So to attempt to ensure that any potential blame for such leakage attachesK to the proper person, it seems appropriate to point out that the subject ofeG VMS's reversed cancellation came up in that meeting not only because ofrI general rumors that had circulated but due to the other specific source IpE mentioned above, who was none other than VMS's staunch friend Michael G Capellas.  Long before we met with Rich, Curly had let slip (before thedJ AlphaNT cancellation) details of the *planned* VMS code freeze in 2003 andK the expectation that customers would migrate to Tru64 or NT; while I wasn't K there to hear it myself, it was reported by one reliable source (who wishes-H to remain anonymous, which is why I haven't been more specific about theE time and place of Curly's indiscretion) and verified by others within8 Compaq.7  6 Hope that satisfies your requirements for credibility.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:45:17 -0400s( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)h* Message-ID: <3D8F997D.30807@tsoft-inc.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  l > In article <WJGj9.15$Ln2.511079@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: > C >>David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3D8CCF18.5B49FCA2@fsi.net>...v >> >>>Hans Vlems wrote: >>> I >>>...but I already get enough heat from the OVMS Engineers and the Larry A >>>Kilgallen types, and almost everyone who is anyone has alreadyaF >>>blacklisted and/or killfiled me since my reply-to address is highly2 >>>predictable (djesys.nospam@any-domain.any-tld). >>>/ >>I haven't killfiled you. >> > 
 > Nor have I.o > @ > For one thing, you know how to capitalize and use punctuation. >   C Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!!   Funny ......  And it's not even subtle.d  P I have to wonder, has anyone actually gone to the effort of actually killfiling  anyone?i   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:03:41 -0400l( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)c, Message-ID: <3D8F9DCD.4060201@tsoft-inc.com>  ? > JF Mezei wrote in message <3D8F62BB.1BA9B212@videotron.ca>...o > L >>True. But HP also has an interest in maximising shareholder value and whenH >>Carly needs to streamline the company and cut costs, which OS will get >>priority to stay alive ?
 >>-HP-UX ? >>-Tandem NSK ?a >>-VMS ?    , Can you explain the math of the above to me?  Q Let's just assume that the cost of proving VMS to paying customers is 1/2 of the JN revenues generated by spending that money.  So, if by saving say, $50, I lose J $100 of income, isn't that actually driving me deeper into the red by the $ original $50 I was planning to save?  ; Please explain how this 'cost cutting' helps in any manner?i  * What are you smoking up there in Montreal?   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:46:38 -0400l- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)e, Message-ID: <3D8FA7D8.8A93A542@videotron.ca>   David Froble wrote:t > >>priority to stay alive ? > >>-HP-UX ? > >>-Tandem NSK ?n
 > >>-VMS ? > . > Can you explain the math of the above to me?  K Lets assume Carly and Curly are convinced that they could convert X% of VMSrQ customers to HP-UX and y% to Tandem. Comes a crunch where they have to cut costs.   M Cut all of the VMS developent and long term, cut VMS support and migrate themrO to your other products. You have as many customers and one fewer OS to support.m  N Cutting VMS would also offer the opportunityy to cut support for VAX and AlphaN faster. And IF they do thiis before IA64 becomes a commercial reality, it alsoI means that they don't have to commit to VMS on IA64 for at least 5 years.e  N I am not saying this will happen. Just that it is probably something that willK be considered. The big question of the percentage of customers who would bef lost to IBM and Sun.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:40:00 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>d9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)l' Message-ID: <3D8FBA0E.8E2DB7D9@fsi.net>l   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > > > JF Mezei wrote in message <3D8E78FF.CBDE61A@videotron.ca>... > >Robert Deininger wrote:L > >> >Isn't that indeed what OpenVMS-IA64 is targetted at (some, but not all > >> >IA64-based machines)?i > >>$ > >> Seems to depend on who you ask. > >.N > >VMS can run on DS10s, but Compaq/HP chose not to market/target VMS for suchN > >markets. So even if VMS could run on a IA64 laptop, it doesn't mean that HP& > >would market VMS for such a market. > >1N > >There is not much point in VMS loyalists trying to push VMS into markets HPL > >doesn't want VMS to go. Let HP clearly state where it wants VMS to go andK > >those who agree will toe the line and those who disagree will , well...,i > >disagree :-)r > N > As far as I know, we sell VMS on the DS10.  We sold VMS on a Tadpole laptop,  > but not many people bought it.  E Well, it's that whole "affordability" thing that keeps getting in the  way, y'know?  L > Our primary purpose is to sell HP hardware, software and services.  So youK > can bet that we will make sure that VMS is targeted at HP hardware.  Will L > VMS run on generic IPF hardware?  That is our plan and our goal.  But thatN > is our technical goal.  The business case for support of non-HP systems will2 > dictate if VMS gets licensed on non-HP hardware.  D Anyone in upper HP mgt. who doesn't already understand that businessG case should resign now and make room for people of vision, intelligenceo and entrepreneurial leaning.  ? VMS has still tremendous potential, but it won't be realized byhF maintaining the status quo, or by anyone who advocates maintaining the status quo.-  D IMHO - YMMV considerably, even to the point of diametric opposition.   -- l David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/m   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:57:47 GMTs1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these) ' Message-ID: <3D8FBE36.30BE7B11@fsi.net>    Elliott Roper wrote: > 7 > In article <3D8F6153.B4505D8E@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei ' > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:a >  > > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:P > > > Our primary purpose is to sell HP hardware, software and services.  So youI > > > can bet that we will make sure that VMS is targeted at HP hardware.D > >rP > > "targetted at HP hardware" is one thing. "Marketed to customers" is another. > >:N > > Just because it runs on a wide range of hardware doesn't mean that HP will2 > > choose to market VMS in those market segments. > >pO > > Consider the Multia debacle where the Multia was prevented from running VMS.M > > for fear that it would cannabalise sales of more expensive hardware. BackdM > > then, they used technical ways to prevent VMS from booting on the low end C > > machines. HP may choose other methods (marketing, pricing etc).h > H > To pull two sub-threads together, the way to boot VMS on Multia was toG > kid it into believing it was a Tadpole. a.k.a "BURN" (for what it didoE > to your lap). There was a bit of extra fiddling, but it came close.o > B > DEC really shot themselves in the foot for failing to pursue the > VeryLowCost alpha line.>  F ...and continues to do so by failing to exploit the market representedD by "affordability". Of course, at this point, their "foot" ends justD below the scalp - so little left to shoot at, you can hardly find it anymore.  I > Without inexpensive development boxes for the customer's techies, it isiD > hard to get the bottom-up support for purchasing decisions for the6 > really profitable big stuff. PHBs are lonely people.  D ...and without affordable boxes and VMS licenses for end-users, ISVsH would be "lonely people" also, if they hadn't jumped ship en masse years ago.  G > If I were running HP marketing, every lump of big tin would come withoF > at least five free 'workstation' VMS boxes like a son-of-DS-10. TheyF > would find their way into developer and maintainer cubicles and home? > systems. Far more direct and to the point than providing limpm$ > 'developer' toys on the dark side.  G I like the sentiment, but I would do that only as a "gift for returning21 to the fold" or "limited-time promotional" offer.t  C > So what if a few cunning people ship great systems on tinythings?u, > They were not going to buy HugeVMS anyway.D > Makes the folk who do buy big, more comfortable with second-source; > support and development, and hence more relaxed about hp.e  G I dunno who they thought they were kidding, anyway. Sure, the misguidedeF might have tried running an enterprise on a Multia cluster (after all,E it works for Micro$hit!), but they'd learn soon enough that big needsoF take big "iron" and those Multias WOULD have become development boxes, would have run PCM (VCS), ...s  F So, the end result would have been the same as what you just proposed.  H > It is very pleasing to see that VMS is taking advantage of open-source3 > stuff like SSL and Gnu-PG (hi Leo - remember us?)r  + Indeed. Much accomplished, much left to do.   H > With a lively community of developers who can tell the difference, VMS@ > ain't gonna suffer such a sharp decline any more. Let there be% > affordable developer boxes, Please?e  F They already have "affordable" developer stuff (well, sort of - rather5 depends how many sugar-daddies you have or can find).-  A ...but without affordable end-user systems/licenses, who ya gonnaH develop for?  I > PS Three cheers to all who are supporting the hobbyist VMS program, and.# > whatever CSA is called this week.r   Seconded, whole-heartedly.   -- r David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:03:39 GMT-1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)(' Message-ID: <3D8FBF9A.C8E2580E@fsi.net>e   "John N." wrote: > [snip]L > And my list of "Pros" was not meant to be overwhelming.  It was only meantM > to be a point to start discussions.  But apparently, we would all prefer toa > rehash history.i  F Our identity is defined as much by our legacy and heritage as it is by+ our own personal substance, like it or not.-  H I'm sure you've heard it before, but I'll say it again anyway: "Who does> not learn from the sins of the past is doomed to repeat them".   -- D David J. Dachtera3 dba DJE Systemsu http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/m   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:50:21 GMTw# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>r9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)sH Message-ID: <xxPj9.92365$8b1.84869@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D8FBA0E.8E2DB7D9@fsi.net...u >yG > Well, it's that whole "affordability" thing that keeps getting in theo > way, y'know? > J > > Our primary purpose is to sell HP hardware, software and services.  So you2G > > can bet that we will make sure that VMS is targeted at HP hardware.T WillI > > VMS run on generic IPF hardware?  That is our plan and our goal.  Butd thatK > > is our technical goal.  The business case for support of non-HP systems  will4 > > dictate if VMS gets licensed on non-HP hardware. >/F > Anyone in upper HP mgt. who doesn't already understand that businessI > case should resign now and make room for people of vision, intelligencee > and entrepreneurial leaning. >eA > VMS has still tremendous potential, but it won't be realized byoH > maintaining the status quo, or by anyone who advocates maintaining the
 > status quo.f     With you 100%, David.v  G HP has to realize that not all its customers are NASA, or supercomputer"D centers, or Fortune 1000 companies. When you get the production lineF humming, the ones-ies, two-sies that you sell to Acme Bicycle CouriersC Corp., or to a ten store retail fashion outlet, have an almost zerodL incremental cost of production. These are the kinds of sales that put almostF pure profit on the bottom line from the hardware side of the equation.  L Multia's were mentioned before...I knew of one situation when Multia's firstK came out that had the boxes not been intentionally crippled at the factory,yK Digital could have sold 200 of these beasts into an account, instead of Sun:K selling two hundred Sparc 5's & 10's as trader workstations. Not to mentionaJ the servers that went along with the workstations. That was in excess of aJ $2 million order p*ssed away by Digital, along with the recurring software and hardware maintenance.   E I know of far too many other cases where Digital/Compaq were not evendJ invited to bid because they didn't have a price-point that was interestingD enough when it came to lots of lower end machines. And many of these( customers were in fact former DEC shops.  J Same thing will repeat itself again and again if they don't offer low cost! boxes. This isn't rocket science.<   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 02:06:09 GMT.1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>p9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)n' Message-ID: <3D8FCE3E.5147D460@fsi.net>s   John Smith wrote:a > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3D8FBA0E.8E2DB7D9@fsi.net...t > > I > > Well, it's that whole "affordability" thing that keeps getting in thee > > way, y'know? > >hL > > > Our primary purpose is to sell HP hardware, software and services.  So > you-I > > > can bet that we will make sure that VMS is targeted at HP hardware.@ > WillK > > > VMS run on generic IPF hardware?  That is our plan and our goal.  But+ > thatM > > > is our technical goal.  The business case for support of non-HP systemsr > will6 > > > dictate if VMS gets licensed on non-HP hardware. > >hH > > Anyone in upper HP mgt. who doesn't already understand that businessK > > case should resign now and make room for people of vision, intelligence   > > and entrepreneurial leaning. > >sC > > VMS has still tremendous potential, but it won't be realized by-J > > maintaining the status quo, or by anyone who advocates maintaining the > > status quo.l >  > With you 100%, David.M > I > HP has to realize that not all its customers are NASA, or supercomputeraF > centers, or Fortune 1000 companies. When you get the production lineH > humming, the ones-ies, two-sies that you sell to Acme Bicycle CouriersE > Corp., or to a ten store retail fashion outlet, have an almost zeroiN > incremental cost of production. These are the kinds of sales that put almostH > pure profit on the bottom line from the hardware side of the equation. > N > Multia's were mentioned before...I knew of one situation when Multia's firstM > came out that had the boxes not been intentionally crippled at the factory,iM > Digital could have sold 200 of these beasts into an account, instead of SunnM > selling two hundred Sparc 5's & 10's as trader workstations. Not to mention2L > the servers that went along with the workstations. That was in excess of aL > $2 million order p*ssed away by Digital, along with the recurring software > and hardware maintenance.h > G > I know of far too many other cases where Digital/Compaq were not even L > invited to bid because they didn't have a price-point that was interestingF > enough when it came to lots of lower end machines. And many of these* > customers were in fact former DEC shops. > L > Same thing will repeat itself again and again if they don't offer low cost# > boxes. This isn't rocket science.   H News has come to me via the grapevine in the over a year since then thatE "the Alphacide" cost local OEMs/VARs/ISVs at least seventeen sales in H various stages of completion (at least one multi-million dollar contractG had already been signed, and was immediately cancelled by the customer)$5 worth an aggregate total on the order of $25 million.Q  G ...and that's just one market. The world-wide cost was likely well intoK the hundreds of millions.a  3 Wish *I* could afford to sneeze at bux like that...t   -- Y David J. DachteraU dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/c   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:37:23 -0400]- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>S9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)e, Message-ID: <3D8FCFD2.50D07533@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote:QL > Same thing will repeat itself again and again if they don't offer low cost# > boxes. This isn't rocket science.N   two possibilities.  5 Carly and Curly are stupid and can't see the obvious.t   or  N Carly and Curly know exactly what they are doing, in which case, draw your own2 conclusions as to why they do not want to grow it.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 02:54:43 GMTK* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these) C Message-ID: <TtQj9.241785$z91.10302205@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>o  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:0ILj9.36$mj2.400551@news.cpqcorp.net...   ...E  
 > There is NOeK > reason to believe any of the FUD above is true, or even has a shadow of aL > chance of comming to pass.  L You're getting more than a bit carried away, Fred.  While there is certainlyE no direct evidence that VMS may soon sleep with the fishes, there are,4 definitely reasons to worry that it very well might:  F 1.  The report that less than 3 years ago VMS was scheduled for a codeK freeze in 2003.  It escaped that fate at the time, but the fact that it was K considered at all is indicative of VMS's perceived importance to the CompaqoK leadership back then (much of which remains in decision-making positions atO The New HP).  J 2.  The Alphacide itself.  While VMS was handed a life-line in the port toI Itanic, its marketability was significantly damaged - especially in the 3lL years between the Alphacide and a shipping (so to speak) Itanic version.  IfE VMS had been any real priority for Compaq, it would have avoided thisn impact.S  H 3.  The continuing emphasis on 'industry-standard' solutions from Carly,H Curly, and other cHumPaq honchos.  They've made it clear that this meansI Windows, some Linux, and HP-UX as at least a temporary high-end solution.rI NSK merits only an occasional off-hand mention, and VMS doesn't even rates that.e  L 4.  The stated corporate focus (again shared by both Carly and Curly) on theG service side of the company (plus commodity products) rather than core,gD proprietary technology development.  They've already taken the stepsH required to get out of the processor business, and getting out of the OS* business is a logical next step to expect.  L 5.  The continuing complete lack of marketing for VMS, plus decidedly anemicG development effort (save for the port itself).  When a company fails to E invest in a product's future (or even its present), one really has to  question its intentions.  J Against such 'FUD' (all of which was generated by VMS's owner:  JF is onlyF the messenger), what do you have to offer in rebuttal?  The few verbalI crumbs of 'commitment' to VMS dropped by those former Compaq geniuses who L lied so earnestly and repeatedly about Alpha's future right up until 6/25/01J (and then lied afterward to try to justify it)?  Or the rationale that theE people who have been so successful at making Compaq and HP the hugely4K successful enterprises they have been over the past 3 years could hardly beoK so stupid as to kill a golden goose like VMS (which they clearly appreciateiK so much)?  You may choose to find reassurance in such thoughts, but they'reA+ not at all sufficient for many people here.H   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:56:48 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)@K Message-ID: <rdeininger-2309022256490001@1cust236.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>n  5 In article <3D8F6153.B4505D8E@videotron.ca>, JF Mezeiw% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:e   > Right now, VMS is running on) >vapours emanating from the Alpha corpse.s  I You know, that's a pretty annoying bit of nonsense to keep trotting out. mH There are folks working every day to bring out new Alpha systems runningG VMS.  DS25 just launched.  ES45 and the GS series just got speedups.  A G whole range of Marvel systems are in the pipeline.  And maybe more thate haven't been announced.r  G Alpha isn't a corpse yet.  By constantly harping on the loss of EV8 anduJ beyond, you imply that all the people doing EV68 and EV7 work are "choppedH liver".  I guess all the PA-risc folks are chopped liver too, since that platform has an announced EOL.  E If you need to buy a VMS system today, you have a lot of new and usedeH alternatives to choose from.  Yeah, I wish they were all cheaper so more1 folks could afford them.  But they ARE available.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:52:59 -0400-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>:9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)t, Message-ID: <3D8FE185.57ECDCD1@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:EI > Alpha isn't a corpse yet.  By constantly harping on the loss of EV8 and8L > beyond, you imply that all the people doing EV68 and EV7 work are "choppedJ > liver".  I guess all the PA-risc folks are chopped liver too, since that  > platform has an announced EOL.  J Yes, Alpha is a corpse. If it isn't why did the leaderhsip of Compaq (withM Curly behind their decision) decide to announce the death of Alpha on June 25S 2001 ?  J What Compaq has done is allow the decay to happen slowly over the next fewK years until the brain (VMS) can be transferd to a new body (IA64), with the G hopes that the dead body will be able to support the brain long enough.   L HP confirmed this by stating that all new customers will be steered to HP-UXL on PArisc initially and then to IA64 when it becomes available.  Pa risc mayL also be a corpse, but it is being taken care of and fed with new customers. K Alpha is just completing work that was already almost finished (EV7). A bits2 like a dead body still growing hair for some time.  M Oh, and HP has no problems marketing HP-UX. So the uncertainty about platformwM chances for HP-UX is compensated by the fact that HP-UYX is a key product for ? HP and stands no fear of being canned. VMS cannot say the same.a  N The murder of Alpha by itself needed not be fatal if handled properly. CombineI the murder with the bad image VMS had, and with the handling of VMS by HP:N during the merger process, and with such jewels such as Scott Stallard's memo,( and that is a mighty weight against VMS.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 04:49:50 GMTa* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these) C Message-ID: <g8Sj9.252220$5r1.10450729@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messageoE news:rdeininger-2309022309180001@1cust236.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net...    ...f  : > I wonder how much a year of EV8 development was costing?  D While we don't have precise numbers, we do have a clear upper limit.  H At the time of the Alphacide, Marcello stated in an interview that AlphaL development cost $150 million annually.  At the same time, Winkler stated inI an interview that it cost $300 million annually, which clearly included a J lot (probably server development, possibly even some software development)F that Marcello's figure did not.  Since the EV8 package was designed toE leverage the EV7 server development (rather than require a new serverDI platform), it seems clear that EV8 development itself cost less than $150sE million annually (probably considerably less, since Marcello's figurerG certainly seems to have included the parallel EV7 development work, and ) presumably the nascent EV9 work as well).d     It would havelG > been another couple of years from now, or more, before any EV8 income I > arrived.  Would Compaq have been able to afford to sell EV8 boxes cheapn+ > enough to generate lots of sales?  Dunno.e  K The promise of EV8 was per-processor performance 4 times that of EV7:  a 2xa@ absolute single-thread performance boost, plus in multi-threadedH (server-style) use another 2x due to (4-way) SMT.  So while the EV8 chipK would not have been cheap (EV7 won't be cheap either - and of course ItanichK is about equally expensive, and will remain so until volumes get far highertD than Alpha's), the ability to use far fewer processors (with minimalL surrounding glue on the boards) to achieve the same level of box performanceJ would have allowed EV8 *systems* to be extremely cost-effective (much moreL so than Itanics will be until at least 2005), while the ability to scale (asL EV7 systems are said to) to 128-processor mesh-coupled boxes would have made" them unassailable on the high end.   >eL > With the current scheme, HP has the cost of porting VMS to IPF (reportedlyL > subsidized by Intel).  And approximately zero development cost for the IPFH > chip.   OpenVMS income from IPF sales will likely start about the sameI > time income from EV8 would have started.  In either case, only EV68 andlK > EV7 systems to sell in the interim.  Truncating the Alpha roadmap clearly  > scared away some customers.l   That's the key.t  ( > Porting to IPF probably attracts some.  K Mostly just some percentage of those who would otherwise have bolted due tod the Alphacide.  J > Everyone can gaze into his own crystal ball to try to guess which courseJ > would have been more profitable.  Mere mortals like us will likely neverH > have access to the numbers from 2001 and the projections for the years > 2002 and beyond.  D But, once again, we *do* have access to enough information to make a very-well-educated guess.5  L In the 3 years between the Alphacide and 2004 (when EV8 would have appeared,K and now when VMS on Itanic is scheduled to appear), Compaq would have spentmF something like $300 million on EV8 development - and no more than $4004 million even if EV9 development started to crank up.  F In Y2K, VMS systems were generating revenue of $4 billion annually andJ profit of $800 million annually, and until the Alphacide their revenue wasK proving more resilient to the slow-down than the other Compaq product lines H (except for NSK, which was also doing well).  Tru64's annual revenue wasG about $3 billion shortly before the Alphacide, so its associated profit-I should have been at least $300 - $400 million, and AlphaLinux contributedoK something (and was growing rapidly).  So *total* EV8/EV9 annual developmentf< cost was *at most* about 12% of total Alpha system *profit*.  K Since the Alphacide, multiple sources have stated that VMS's annual revenue H has dropped to around $2 billion, and God only knows how badly Tru64 hasF been hit (lacking even the fig-leaf of the port).  When revenue drops,L profit drops even more:  given how small a percentage of Alpha system profitF EV8/9 development cost in the first place, only a very small effect onJ perceived platform viability would have sufficed to fund EV8/9 development@ completely - even if not a single EV8 system had ever been sold.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:09:17 -040012 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these) K Message-ID: <rdeininger-2309022309180001@1cust236.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>t  ; In article <3D8FCE3E.5147D460@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"o <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:    I >News has come to me via the grapevine in the over a year since then that.F >"the Alphacide" cost local OEMs/VARs/ISVs at least seventeen sales inI >various stages of completion (at least one multi-million dollar contracteH >had already been signed, and was immediately cancelled by the customer)6 >worth an aggregate total on the order of $25 million. >2H >...and that's just one market. The world-wide cost was likely well into >the hundreds of millions.  G I wonder how much a year of EV8 development was costing?  It would haveoE been another couple of years from now, or more, before any EV8 income G arrived.  Would Compaq have been able to afford to sell EV8 boxes cheapC) enough to generate lots of sales?  Dunno.t  J With the current scheme, HP has the cost of porting VMS to IPF (reportedlyJ subsidized by Intel).  And approximately zero development cost for the IPFF chip.   OpenVMS income from IPF sales will likely start about the sameG time income from EV8 would have started.  In either case, only EV68 and I EV7 systems to sell in the interim.  Truncating the Alpha roadmap clearlyoD scared away some customers.  Porting to IPF probably attracts some. H Everyone can gaze into his own crystal ball to try to guess which courseH would have been more profitable.  Mere mortals like us will likely neverF have access to the numbers from 2001 and the projections for the years 2002 and beyond.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 06:39:17 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)sK Message-ID: <rdeininger-2409020639170001@1cust215.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>a  I In article <TtQj9.241785$z91.10302205@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "BillU% Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:r    M >You're getting more than a bit carried away, Fred.  While there is certainlycF >no direct evidence that VMS may soon sleep with the fishes, there are5 >definitely reasons to worry that it very well might:h >hG >1.  The report that less than 3 years ago VMS was scheduled for a code           ^^^^^^ D Report from where?  JF on comp.os.vms?  Gartner?  Some trade rag?  AE Compaq annual report?  SKxxx?  Special bulletin from a flying saucer?o  L >freeze in 2003.  It escaped that fate at the time, but the fact that it was@                                                             ^^^^H And only 1 line later, you've upgraded the "report" to a "fact".   Maybe@ the flying saucers have recently gotten a bandwidth upgrade. :-)  L >considered at all is indicative of VMS's perceived importance to the CompaqL >leadership back then (much of which remains in decision-making positions at
 >The New HP).n  H Have you any credible evidence that a code freeze was either "scheduled" or "considered"?  D I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was "considered".  DiligentJ corporate officers (if such in fact exist) should be considering all sortsG of alternatives as a matter of course.  I suspect it wouldn't take much 4 consideration to reject the plan in the case of VMS.  D If it was considered and rejected, wouldn't that be a GOOD sign?  As5 opposed to VMS being kept by accident or inattention?o   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:34:22 +0000 (UTC)o+ From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)o9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these) + Message-ID: <ampf3e$k43$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>t  \ In article <3D8F5B46.4E9D43F9@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >"John N." wrote:^L >> To answer your question, I see VMS as constantly improving, and I see theK >> release of VMS that will be running on the Itanium processor as being "2nK >> years ahead" of where VMS is today.  My only question is whether Itanium O >> itself will be two years ahead of where Alpha is today.  Or even if Itanium, < >> in two years from now, will even be where Alpha is today. >fH >Sun was able to rule the Unix world with a chip that wasn't the world'sN >fastest.  And the wintel world was able to make huge gains and get a foothold; >in the enterprise computing with the 8086 game controller.m > I Sun's chip isn't the fastest now but in the past it was a reasonable chipaM with very good price/performance. Sun is living on the legacy of applicationsaI which were ported at that time and the reputation it garnered then as the I leading Unix. In many ways this is similar to the latter days of DEC with J respect to VAX/VMS. (Although some application developers have moved theirK focus from Solaris to Microsoft operating systems or Linux this is still ine the relatively early stages).t  L The 8086 maybe a "game controller" but Intel by spending a lot of money haveL been able to give it reasonable performance and very good price/performance.) It also has tons of application software.e  O >So theoretically, VMS should be able to be succesful *despite* being on IA64. y >dL The difference is that VMS DOES NOT have a gigantic third party application M portfolio. I still expect that it will be quite a few years after VMS on IA64NK debuts that large numbers of VMS users would want to move to it - most wills/ just stick with their better performing Alphas.     
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University     >I see two major problems: >sL >In the short term, the efforts made to port it to the unwanted architectureF >are efforts that could have been put towards moving VMS forwards withB >more/better utilities and helping ISVs port more software to VMS. >SN >The TCPIP stack may have improved significantly in recent years, but it stillG >has some ways to go before being a "really good" product. MAIL is in asJ >desperate need of revamping, and the sooner that Unix compatibility thing >arrives, the better.t >nO >Before the Alpha murder, VMS was already behind Unix for many aspects. EffortsuO >should have been made to speed the progress up so that VMS could not only keeptE >up with advances but also close the gap.  But I am *afraid* that thedN >distration of that unwanted IA64 port will instead widen the gap in the casesW >where VMS was behind, and allow UNIX to narrow the gap in cases where Unix was behind.  >  > A >While Carly and Curly may have stated that they want to simplify L >architectures, their dog and poney show will complicate them. What if thereK >remains more VAX customers on support contracts than IA64 customers ? ThatiL >would mean that HP would have to continue to support and improve VAX, AlphaO >and that IA64 thing.  That means that a greater percentage of manpower will be M >going towards maintaining those different architecttures instead of focusingF >on one and moving fast.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:12:28 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)gK Message-ID: <rdeininger-2409020712280001@1cust215.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>a  I In article <g8Sj9.252220$5r1.10450729@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill % Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:/  @ >"Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messageF >news:rdeininger-2309022309180001@1cust236.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net... >e >... >e; >> I wonder how much a year of EV8 development was costing?e >aE >While we don't have precise numbers, we do have a clear upper limit.g  J I won't comment on your numbers, because I have heard too many conflictingI ones and have no reliable way to know which are best.  A throwaway remarkeF from Marcello or Winkler isn't particularly credible to me, especiallyD without a lot of context.  I'll just say that the upper limit is not "clear" to me.   >  It would haveH >> been another couple of years from now, or more, before any EV8 incomeJ >> arrived.  Would Compaq have been able to afford to sell EV8 boxes cheap, >> enough to generate lots of sales?  Dunno. >CL >The promise of EV8 was per-processor performance 4 times that of EV7:  a 2xA >absolute single-thread performance boost, plus in multi-threadeddI >(server-style) use another 2x due to (4-way) SMT.  So while the EV8 chipML >would not have been cheap (EV7 won't be cheap either - and of course ItanicL >is about equally expensive, and will remain so until volumes get far higherE >than Alpha's), the ability to use far fewer processors (with minimal M >surrounding glue on the boards) to achieve the same level of box performance K >would have allowed EV8 *systems* to be extremely cost-effective (much more M >so than Itanics will be until at least 2005), while the ability to scale (as2M >EV7 systems are said to) to 128-processor mesh-coupled boxes would have made:# >them unassailable on the high end.f  E I won't argue against the performance of EV8, if/when they could havetJ gotten it out the door.  SMT was totally unproven in EV8.  I haven't heardI even rumors that they had anything like a working prototype.  EV7 has hadtI its share of problems.  It is possible there were scary obstacles looming - for EV8 that we haven't heard anything about.   H But I was wondering about price, not price/performance.  Many folks hereJ don't want to hear about TCO or prices/performance, but only raw price.  I@ haven't seen any hint that EV8 could have been priced favorably,G especially on the low end.  EV7 must cost much more/chip than EV68, andg( EV8 would have been even more expensive.  G EV7 doesn't bring much to the table for a small system.  EV68 is almostlI certainly more cost-effective until you get above 4 processors.  How manyDD $100,000 + systems does any company sell?  Enough to sustain a whole1 microprocessor development division indefinitely?h  F Too sustain the alpha business, I think they would have had to come upH with a way to make inexpensive chips for low-end (1 and 2P) systems, andG sell them in volume.  How many times did DEC/Compaq try to do that, andF9 fail?  Was there a good chance of success on the horizon?o  M >> With the current scheme, HP has the cost of porting VMS to IPF (reportedlytM >> subsidized by Intel).  And approximately zero development cost for the IPF'I >> chip.   OpenVMS income from IPF sales will likely start about the samerJ >> time income from EV8 would have started.  In either case, only EV68 andL >> EV7 systems to sell in the interim.  Truncating the Alpha roadmap clearly >> scared away some customers. >i >That's the key. >q) >> Porting to IPF probably attracts some.h >oL >Mostly just some percentage of those who would otherwise have bolted due to >the Alphacide.o  A Well, I doubt either of us has good numbers for either situation./  E >But, once again, we *do* have access to enough information to make a: >very-well-educated guess.  0 I agree with the "guess" part of your statement.  , > ...  So *total* EV8/EV9 annual development= >cost was *at most* about 12% of total Alpha system *profit*.   H I'm not sure the alpha+unix+vms business has been profitable at any time5 in the recent past.  Some folks say yes, some say no.:   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 06:55:38 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)hK Message-ID: <rdeininger-2409020655380001@1cust215.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>c  5 In article <3D8FE185.57ECDCD1@videotron.ca>, JF Mezeit% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:h   >Robert Deininger wrote:J >> Alpha isn't a corpse yet.  By constantly harping on the loss of EV8 andM >> beyond, you imply that all the people doing EV68 and EV7 work are "choppedBK >> liver".  I guess all the PA-risc folks are chopped liver too, since thato! >> platform has an announced EOL.  >eK >Yes, Alpha is a corpse. If it isn't why did the leaderhsip of Compaq (with N >Curly behind their decision) decide to announce the death of Alpha on June 25 >2001 ?R  I Maybe because they couldn't see how to make the alpha business profitablei' into the future?  Sort of like Pa-risc.m  D But you are avoiding the point.  Alpha will end in the future, afterI EV79.  You keep saying it is dead now.  In fact, nothing has changed with J the pre-EV8 alpha line, and development is continuing today.  But you knowF this.  You just have your axe to grind, truth be damned.  Like a small< child that didn't get its way.  You will have the last word.  M >HP confirmed this by stating that all new customers will be steered to HP-UXrM >on PArisc initially and then to IA64 when it becomes available.  Pa risc mayaL >also be a corpse, but it is being taken care of and fed with new customers.  E Well no, HP hasn't stated that.  This is your rewording and spin of anF single statement by Scott Stallard (or someone on his staff), releasedG just after the merger.  The statement was subsequently revised to soundeG even less like your spun version.  There have been many other statementrG since then.  It is your choice to focus on the one that you dislike the I most, and to tweek the wording to suit your tantrum.  (I don't recall the J word "all" used in the original statement as you have done, for example.)   D Have you subjected any other sentences from HP to similar scrutiny? > Perhaps there have been one or two other examples of confused,E conflicting, or muddled statements from HP?  Or do you leave that forh other conspiracy theorists?   G Regardless of Stallard's statement some months ago, and what exactly he G meant by it, there are clearly others in HP who ARE still promoting andtJ selling VMS to new customers.  So your portrayal of a monolithic HP policyB against VMS is a figment of your own imagination.  But it fits the: argument you are determined to carry on, so happy ranting.  eF >Alpha is just completing work that was already almost finished (EV7).  J False.  You seriously underestimate the level of effort that has gone, andJ continues to go, into alpha system development.  There was nothing "almostI finished" about EV7, or the Marvel systems, or the DS25, or the speedups, 
 in June 2001.c  N >Oh, and HP has no problems marketing HP-UX. So the uncertainty about platformN >chances for HP-UX is compensated by the fact that HP-UYX is a key product for@ >HP and stands no fear of being canned. VMS cannot say the same.   VMS can and does say the same.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:04:06 -0400t( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)., Message-ID: <3D9135B6.8070508@tsoft-inc.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:   = > In article <3D8FCE3E.5147D460@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"m  > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: >  >  > J >>News has come to me via the grapevine in the over a year since then thatG >>"the Alphacide" cost local OEMs/VARs/ISVs at least seventeen sales in J >>various stages of completion (at least one multi-million dollar contractI >>had already been signed, and was immediately cancelled by the customer) 7 >>worth an aggregate total on the order of $25 million.o >>I >>...and that's just one market. The world-wide cost was likely well intor >>the hundreds of millions.  >> > I > I wonder how much a year of EV8 development was costing?  It would have,G > been another couple of years from now, or more, before any EV8 incomepI > arrived.  Would Compaq have been able to afford to sell EV8 boxes cheapu+ > enough to generate lots of sales?  Dunno.a > L > With the current scheme, HP has the cost of porting VMS to IPF (reportedlyL > subsidized by Intel).  And approximately zero development cost for the IPFH > chip.   OpenVMS income from IPF sales will likely start about the sameI > time income from EV8 would have started.  In either case, only EV68 andvK > EV7 systems to sell in the interim.  Truncating the Alpha roadmap clearly7F > scared away some customers.  Porting to IPF probably attracts some. J > Everyone can gaze into his own crystal ball to try to guess which courseJ > would have been more profitable.  Mere mortals like us will likely neverH > have access to the numbers from 2001 and the projections for the years > 2002 and beyond. >     $ Well, yeah, things happen, and such.  Q I do have a problem with your casually casting off "only EV68 and EV7 systems to tQ sell in the interim" as barely worth mentioning.  EV6, EV68, and most definitaly sN EV7 would have been viable products.  Driving a stake into the heart of these H products sure doesn't allow an objective observation of their potential.  N I don't put much into the idea that IA-64 actually will attract customers, at I least at this time.  Should IA-64 crater, and until the success )or lack  ; there-of) of Hammer is observed, there is reasonable doubt.c  L I still feel comfortable with labeling 'idiots' the people who blew off the L potential of Alpha and the lost sales. The rather poor job of FUD about the O future and potential and profitability and cost of Alpha sure seems to justify o
 the label.  P They just didn't want the product, and nothing else mattered to them, including  profits.   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:08:09 -0400o( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)c, Message-ID: <3D9136A9.3010600@tsoft-inc.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  C > David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3D8FBA0E.8E2DB7D9@fsi.net>...  >  >>Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >> > G >>>As far as I know, we sell VMS on the DS10.  We sold VMS on a Tadpolea >>>m	 > laptop,r > ! >>>but not many people bought it.  >>>rG >>Well, it's that whole "affordability" thing that keeps getting in thec >>way, y'know? >> >> > 2 > I don't think *we* set the price on the Tadpole.    N I'm assuming that the VMS licenses on the Tadpole did cost the mfg something? K who set those prices?  What were those prices?  Would they let the Tadpole g compete with other notebooks?g   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:16:46 -0400-( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)f( Message-ID: <3D9138AE.709@tsoft-inc.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:    M > I don't believe that VMS will see any cuts for a variety of reasons I can'taN > go into.  But it is highly unlikely that any future plans would kill VMS (asE > you are implying).  There is more to lose than to gain by doing so.s    Q I agree with you.  But I must observe that there is some reasons to believe that a) killing Alpha caused more loss than gain.   P Of course I am not privy to everything, such as conditions on the IA-64 porting : money from Intel, which might have included killing Alpha.  M Regardless, sales have tanked, and while everything else has also, there are  J stories of rather large losses of sales specifically due to killing Alpha.   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:58:30 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r9 Subject: Re: VMS future (oh not not another one of these)e, Message-ID: <3D914274.CF7E4799@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:lK > I don't think I'm confused.  Below 4 processors or so, EV68 plus a fairlyiL > inexpensive chipset could easily outperform the expensive, but "glueless", > EV7. t  K Look at the 8086. Intel is able to make current generation chips in formatsaH that are suitable from laptops to large multi-cpu servers. InterestinglyM thought, blade servers seem to be still based on the pentium 3 instead of theoJ 4. But given time, Intel will probably produce a 4 that has the heat/power! profile suitable for those boxes.   G What disapoints me in EV7 is that it seems to have been architecturally J designed to make it unsuitable for small systems.  I would have hoped thatH architecturally it could have been more versatile, with the first modelsK designes for the larger "wildfire" class machines, but allowing a differents1 model of EV7 to be airmed at the smaller systems.s  H Lets assume for a minute that Digital still existed, Palmer ousted, withK Marcello at the helm wanting to make VMS popular from laptops to wildfires. H Would he really want smaller systems to be "stuck" at EV6x with only theL larger systems benefiting from advances in Alpha designs ? In the long term,H they would have to develop two architectures: the EV6x track for smaller6 systems, and EV7, EV8, EV9 etc for the large systems.   N Wouldn't it have been better to keep developping the architecture so that eachN major iteration could result in chips supporting the whole range ? (eg: an EV7: chip for the high end, and an EV7 chip for the lower end).   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2002 11:52:06 -0700. From: hecvillaf@yahoo.com (Hector Villafuerte), Subject: Re: VMS system accounts description< Message-ID: <b23aa71.0209241052.3f99f810@posting.google.com>   Thanks for all your replies !o  3 First I would like to justify why I'm asking things 6 like this ... we latin people use to give explanations" even when they're not asked for :)3 I'm an electronical engineering student who somehowk2 ended up working as a systems auditor (don't ask).5 I have no experience with OpenVMS, I've played aroundp4 with Linux a little (but it's kinda hard to document7 yourself using an expensive internet access). I'm not a2" hacker, you can mail me at job at:, hec DOT villafuerte AT telgua DOT com DOT gt# if you don't trust my yahoo mail :)e OK, enough about that!   Hoff wrote:o@ > Please move to an OpenVMS release with Current Support or with@ > Prior Version Support, and please also apply the mandatory ECOB > kits for the particular OpenVMS release in use.   Please see theF > OpenVMS FAQ for details related to finding and downloading ECO kits.  2 Hmmm, interesting. I'll read something about that.  : > The manuals are at <http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/>.  ) Seems like this is THE reference for VMS.4  < > Start with a thorough read of the OpenVMS security manual.: > Read the recommended security settings, and particularly4 > the section on running OpenVMS in an NCSC Class C2 > environment.  ? Sincerely, I have no idea what this classes stuff is all about,3 but I'll do my reading..  < > Consider what (inexperienced) auditors tell you to do with> > great care, as certain (erroneous) recommendations that I've= > personally heard auditors expound can render OpenVMS itselfe? > unsupportable or inoperable.  My favorite example: I was oncen. > told to entirely remove the SYSTEM username.  H Where you God sent or something, Hoff?!:) I'm one of those inexperienced@ auditors (and I hate it... so I really try not to give erroneous= reports). The problem is that the system administrator has NOa; idea what all this accounts are good for. My boss' idea is:a= "If you don't know what it does, remove it", so my task is toi? prevent making the system inoperable because "the administratore) removed accounts that audit told him to"!   
 WWWebb wrote:t > I *will* give you one link:e4 > Here's a whitepaper on how VMS fared at the DEFCON > hackers' convention:, > http://www.pointsecure.com/Defconwhite.pdf  
 Thank you!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:07:28 -0400i- From: "kenrbnsn1@rcn.com" <kenrbnsn1@rcn.com> , Subject: Re: VMS system accounts description: Message-ID: <301910-22002922419728880@M2W028.mail2web.com>   You wrote (in part):  4 >First I would like to justify why I'm asking things= >like this =2E=2E=2E we latin people use to give explanationsd# >even when they're not asked for :)h4 >I'm an electronical engineering student who somehow5 >ended up working as a systems auditor (don't ask)=2Er6 >I have no experience with OpenVMS, I've played around  I Having just dealt with an Auditor who had pratically no idea about VMS, I K can sympathize with you=2E Teaching him about VMS usernames and privileges=k  ina* about 2 weeks was quite a challange=2E :-)    I >Where you God sent or something, Hoff?!:) I'm one of those inexperienced G >auditors (and I hate it=2E=2E=2E so I really try not to give erroneouss@ >reports)=2E The problem is that the system administrator has NO> >idea what all this accounts are good for=2E My boss' idea is:> >"If you don't know what it does, remove it", so my task is to@ >prevent making the system inoperable because "the administrator* >removed accounts that audit told him to"!  B No, the answer to that problem is to remove the incompetent SystemK Administrator and get one that know what he is doing=2E There are plenty o=P fe? them out in the work force who could use a job right now=2E :-)e   Ken Robinson  D --------------------------------------------------------------------+ mail2web - Check your email from the web at  http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:14:00 -0400-; From: "Webb, William W Raleigh, NC" <wwebb1@email.usps.gov>4, Subject: RE: VMS system accounts descriptionK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E49028BEB01@rlghncst964.usps.gov>e   -----Original Message-----7 From: "Hector Villafuerte" [mailto:hecvillaf@yahoo.com]e) Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 2:52 PMw To: "Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com" , Subject: RE: VMS system accounts description     Thanks for all your replies !o  3 First I would like to justify why I'm asking thingss6 like this ... we latin people use to give explanations" even when they're not asked for :)  + 	It had nothing to do with your background. 0 	It had to do with how you asked your questions.  4       Most people don't usually place an emphasis on)       security aspects at the very start.'  . 	So you either sounded like you were trying to 	do a class assignment or hack.h   	No offense intended.V  3 I'm an electronical engineering student who somehowP2 ended up working as a systems auditor (don't ask).  / 	One of the great conundrums of the universe isV- 	whether competent or incompetent DP auditorse 	are the greater curse.f  1 	(I've seen both in the course of my career., andk3 	 again, **no offense intended** at least you know -9        that you don't know, and that's the first step to 5        enlightenment.)  8        Check that pointsecure website.  They've got some 	 information you might like.t    5 I have no experience with OpenVMS, I've played aroundi4 with Linux a little (but it's kinda hard to document. yourself using an expensive internet access).   0       Welcome to the best OS that money can buy.  	, I'm not a hacker, you can mail me at job at:  , hec DOT villafuerte AT telgua DOT com DOT gt  # if you don't trust my yahoo mail :)a OK, enough about that!   Hoff wrote:e@ > Please move to an OpenVMS release with Current Support or with@ > Prior Version Support, and please also apply the mandatory ECOB > kits for the particular OpenVMS release in use.   Please see theF > OpenVMS FAQ for details related to finding and downloading ECO kits.  2 Hmmm, interesting. I'll read something about that.  : > The manuals are at <http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/>.  ) Seems like this is THE reference for VMS.   < > Start with a thorough read of the OpenVMS security manual.: > Read the recommended security settings, and particularly4 > the section on running OpenVMS in an NCSC Class C2 > environment.  ? Sincerely, I have no idea what this classes stuff is all about,o but I'll do my reading.P  < > Consider what (inexperienced) auditors tell you to do with> > great care, as certain (erroneous) recommendations that I've= > personally heard auditors expound can render OpenVMS itselfS? > unsupportable or inoperable.  My favorite example: I was oncet. > told to entirely remove the SYSTEM username.  H Where you God sent or something, Hoff?!:) I'm one of those inexperienced@ auditors (and I hate it... so I really try not to give erroneous= reports). The problem is that the system administrator has NO-; idea what all this accounts are good for. My boss' idea is:m= "If you don't know what it does, remove it", so my task is to ? prevent making the system inoperable because "the administrator.) removed accounts that audit told him to"!R  
 WWWebb wrote:< > I *will* give you one link:e4 > Here's a whitepaper on how VMS fared at the DEFCON > hackers' convention:, > http://www.pointsecure.com/Defconwhite.pdf  
 Thank you!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:42:41 -0400 1 From: "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccusker@charter.net>l Subject: Re: VMS, C++ and flushp/ Message-ID: <up21t2cioc1u04@corp.supernews.com>h  3 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in messages! news:3D8E00F8.EF656DD3@aaa.com...r > Hi.u > : > The ident info from sys$share:decc$shr.exe on the system > where we see the problem  :l > (VMS 7.3)d >t, >     image file identification: "V7.3-0-02"8 >     image file build identification: "X91Y-0060010011"% >     linker identification: "A11-50"t >8  D This is the latest ECO, and, I suspect you are seeing an inadvertantJ behavior change that probably should have been protected with some sort ofE feature switch (and will be in the next ECO or release).  I'll try to J remember to come back to this string and update once we have it completely understood.a  
 Brad McCusker  OpenVMS C RTL Project Leader+ Advanced Server for OpenVMS Project Manager  Hewlett-Packard Companyf   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:32:12 GMTm1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o  Subject: Re: warning during copy' Message-ID: <3D8FC64A.D3CE58CD@fsi.net>(   aniruddha patwardhan wrote:h >  > Hi > @ > I am trying to copy a file and I am getting following warning.J > Please explain the meaning of this warning as well as how to remove this	 > warningp >   > apatward@oak-ani_vantive> copy5 > DISK$USER01:[USER.APATWARD.FINAL_SAMPLES]PIPPIN_4-S  > EP-2002.MONDAT *.* >  > %COPY-W-INCOMPAT,o@ > DISK$USER01:[USER.APATWARD.FINAL_SAMPLES]PIPPIN_4-SEP-2002.MON > DAT;1 (input) andc@ > VIEW$ANI_VANTIVE:[VMS.USER2.CVAXDEV.ROLLOUT.REFCOPY]PIPPIN_4-S8 > EP-2002.MONDAT;1 (output) have incompatible attributes  E Well, if the file comes out o.k., there's a couple of choices I couldr suggest to squelch the message:o   1. $ MSG = F$ENV( "MESSAGE" ) $ SET MESS/NOF/NOS/NOI/NOT $ COPY infile1 *.* $ SET MESS'MSG't   2. $ DEFINE/USER SYS$OUTPUT NLA0: $ DEFINE/USER SYS$ERROR NLA0:u $ COPY infile1 *.*  G Now that said, I'm not sure I understand why you're doing the copy of ay file to a wildcarded filespec.  F If your intention is simply to make a copy of the file in your currentH default device/directory, the following will suffice and not produce the mesage:e   $ COPY infile []   -- h David J. Dachterad dba DJE Systemsc http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:32:37 GMTo1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>y0 Subject: Re: What is happening to the industry ?- Message-ID: <9d2k9.198251$Jo.71478@rwcrnsc53>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D8FC233.5DE3071A@videotron.ca... > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:nK > > Ah, so a President can now serve more two terms (that's eight years) orl 10I > > terms? Guess the US Constitution has been amended. Profound apologies  about  > > the oversight. > I > Is there anything preventing Bill Clinton from being Vice President ? I8 though* > only the president had term limitations.  J Ah. Good point! I was thinking of Hillary!, not her husband. My son is theK family expert on constitional law, so I may wrong here, but I think you aren right! Sorry for the confusion.b   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:36:20 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>o0 Subject: Re: What is happening to the industry ?? Message-ID: <Eg2k9.389367$kp.1174156@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>l  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagesE news:rdeininger-2309022311230001@1cust236.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net... > > In article <3D8F21E6.51E9A59@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt& > <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote: >  > >JF Mezei wrote: > >g, > >> Re: What is happening to the industry ? > > 3 > >After a 224 year run, American democracy died ony0 > >December 12th, 2000 when the US Supreme Court8 > >decided it was more important to prevent a Republican8 > >riot than to count votes. As a result, we installed a8 > >corrupt, ignorant, amoral, deserting (from-the-armed-4 > >forces), drunk, cocaine-abusing, pretzel-inhaling9 > >foul-mouthed bigot* as the "leader of the free world".t9 > >This has had the predictable ripple effects throughout1 > >the world economy.h >.H > Hey, you ignorant jerk.  Did you even bother to read the Supreme Court% > decision?  Or the Florida statutes?w  L Did Shrub desert from the armed forces? Thought he was an F-16 driver in theB Air National Guard. That is, when he saw fit to show up and drive.  L The guy does seem to have a problem with pretzels, though... he inhaled! ;-}   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:15:02 GMTa( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>0 Subject: Re: What is happening to the industry ?+ Message-ID: <3D90E4CB.8FC9CA3A@pacbell.net>d   Atlant Schmidt wrote:r >  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:n > P > > Did Shrub desert from the armed forces? Thought he was an F-16 driver in theF > > Air National Guard. That is, when he saw fit to show up and drive. >  > Yes, he deserted.h > + > After he was transfered to Alabama (so hec0 > could run some shmoes campaign for office), he/ > simply quit showing up. That is, he went AWOLi/ > and, as I understand it, was AWOL long enough 8 > that he could have been court martialed for dessertion0 > had anyone cared. Because he was a Bush child, > no one cared.y > 5 > Now, of course, Major General Daniel James (who was = > head of the Texas National Guard at the time of the allegedg7 > scrubbing of George W. Bush's National Guard records)h4 > was appointed by pResident Bush to be commander of6 > the nation's Air National Guard. I'm sure there's no" > connection between these events. > 
 > References:t >   >   http://awol.gq.nu/4dawol.htm) >   http://www.talion.com/georgebush.html = >   http://www.democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Bush%20Scandalss > / > Bush also was removed from flight status when # > he failed to take a medical exam:e > ) >   http://www.talion.com/suspension.html. > 0 > It is suspected that the medical problem was a& > foreign substance stuck up his nose. >  > AtlantM After living these 55 years in America and following politics, I can honestlye say,G the only thing lower in this world than self-righteous Republican, is a  self-righteous Democrat. -- e   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com)h
 San Franciscor   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:35:01 GMT^1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>t0 Subject: Re: What is happening to the industry ?? Message-ID: <VqOj9.418001$_91.564898@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>.  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D8F9696.E10945C6@videotron.ca... > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > > Yep, Bush isL > > responsible for cancer, psoriasis, the transfer of nuclear technology to theyK > > ChiComs (a matter that just cost the Democrats over $700K USD!), Enron,  thei* > > dot-com implosion, and of course 9-11. >t; > Well there you go Atlant, Terry is fully supporting you !T >N > :-) :-) :-) :-)u >yD > > So, are you contributing to the President Daschle/Vice President Hillary! > K > Mr Shannon, your imagination disapoints me. Everyone knowns that the next J > president will be Hillary Clinton, and the next VP will be Bill Clinton. WhilesL > hilary will be busy with world leaders, Bill can entertain their wifes :-) :-) :-)n  J Ah, so a President can now serve more two terms (that's eight years) or 10K terms? Guess the US Constitution has been amended. Profound apologies about- the oversight.  K You may now return to biching and moaning about VMS.I need my daily dose of1 humor/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:39:12 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 0 Subject: Re: What is happening to the industry ?, Message-ID: <3D8FC233.5DE3071A@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:wL > Ah, so a President can now serve more two terms (that's eight years) or 10M > terms? Guess the US Constitution has been amended. Profound apologies aboute > the oversight.  N Is there anything preventing Bill Clinton from being Vice President ? I though( only the president had term limitations.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 03:05:03 GMTS' From: Stuart Fuller <stufuller@usa.net> 0 Subject: Re: What is happening to the industry ?= Message-ID: <1fioma.hem.ln@cc49395-b.wodhvn01.mi.comcast.net>   
 Yawn . . .   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:11:22 -0400t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: What is happening to the industry ?K Message-ID: <rdeininger-2309022311230001@1cust236.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>t  < In article <3D8F21E6.51E9A59@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt$ <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:   >JF Mezei wrote: >o* >> Re: What is happening to the industry ? >r1 >After a 224 year run, American democracy died on . >December 12th, 2000 when the US Supreme Court6 >decided it was more important to prevent a Republican6 >riot than to count votes. As a result, we installed a6 >corrupt, ignorant, amoral, deserting (from-the-armed-2 >forces), drunk, cocaine-abusing, pretzel-inhaling7 >foul-mouthed bigot* as the "leader of the free world".e7 >This has had the predictable ripple effects throughoutO >the world economy.r  F Hey, you ignorant jerk.  Did you even bother to read the Supreme Court# decision?  Or the Florida statutes?a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:32:24 -0400i  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>0 Subject: Re: What is happening to the industry ?6 Message-ID: <1020923225227.42280A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  $ On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, JF Mezei wrote:   > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: N > > Ah, so a President can now serve more two terms (that's eight years) or 10O > > terms? Guess the US Constitution has been amended. Profound apologies aboute > > the oversight. > P > Is there anything preventing Bill Clinton from being Vice President ? I though* > only the president had term limitations.  E There is a clause that says the vice president must be someone who isgA eligible to be president.  The 12th Amenment says "But no person eH constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible0 to that of Vice-President of the United States."  F The 22nd doesn't say someone who has been elected twice can't serve asC President.  It says no one can be elected more than twice, and thattG no one who has served as President more than 2 years of a term to whichsF someone else was elected can be elected more than once.  So if ClintonE (or Reagan, for that matter) was elected VP, I think he would have towG resign after 2 years if he became President, because he would no longertA be constitutionally eligible to be President.  However, that's myaF literal reading, and intent matters.  I would expect the Supreme CourtA would rule that he (and R.R. too) would be ineligible, if he weretB actually to be nominated.  Since this has never been an issue, I'mA sure the Supreme Court has never had to rule on it, so it is mosta likely still an open issue.   D There are lots of strange situations for a literal-minded programmerD to contemplate.  After VP, the succession goes to Speaker, President< pro tem of the Senate, and then on through the cabinet.  TheJ Secretary of State is first in the list.  At least two recent Secretaries A have been constitutionally ineligible for not being natural born eE citizens: Henry Kissinger and Madeline Albright.   If it had come to cF that, they would have been skipped.  Also, there is nothing preventingG an ex-President from being elected to Congress, and serving as Speaker.nC (J. Q. Adams and Andrew Johnson were both elected to Congress afteru= being President.  Adams in the House, Johnson in the Senate.) G Since neither server 2 full terms, they would still have been eligible,l2 had the 22nd Amendment been in effect at the time.  ( BTW, no Speaker has ever been President.  > Now, if Shrub were to claim in 2008 that his first term didn't? count because he wasn't actually elected, so he was entitled to A a third term, it wouldn't work, because by that argument he woulde? have served more than 2 years of Al Gore's term...  I hope this % factoid prevents a few nightmares ;-)o     -- a John Santosh Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 03:40:58 GMT4* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>0 Subject: Re: What is happening to the industry ?C Message-ID: <c8Rj9.253512$AR1.10600400@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>n  > "Michael Austin" <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote in message, news:3D8F6AC2.D8C58476@firstdbasource.com...   ...n  9 > Obviously you must have voted for the previous corrupt,w  H Arguable.  The Whitewater probe never got anywhere, and its questionableL whether effectively selling tickets to the Lincoln bedroom is corrupt rather than just tacky.  H Of course, a lot of Dubya's apparent corruptness might be explainable as simple stupidity.e   > ignorant,   I Nope:  compared with Bill, Dubya is *way* undereducated (and also nowhere  nearly as bright).  	 > amoral,e  F Possibly.  But Dubya's amorality threatens my personal freedom and theH world's stability, whereas Clinton's just set a bad example for our kidsB (which of course Dubya's does as well, if they're bright enough to# understand the implications of it).u    <draft-dodging>,r  L Yup - applies to both.  Not that I consider it damning in either case:  thatK was a war to be avoided, and my main reservation about both of them is that 9 they avoided it without actively speaking out against it.m  * > drunk, cocaine-abusing, pretzel-inhaling  J I don't recall specific alcohol, cocaine, or pretzel issues with Clinton -	 just pot.a   > foul-mouthed bigot*.  J I'm not aware of significant issues in these last two areas for either one+ of them, but could easily have missed them.o   >iJ > Although it is kind of funny that when ALL the votes were recounted,thisE > <insert your list here> leader of the free world really did win thepJ > election -- even using the most liberal defintions of what constituted a8 > vote --or did you forget about this little known fact.  F Atlant said nothing about what the result would or would not have beenJ (which is still somewhat debatable):  his observation involved the refusalC by the Republican-dominated Supreme Court to allow the result to be. established.   >rG > When you have an entire state with the same voting mechanisms and youoB > only challenge a fractional subset that could possibly push yourH > candidate over the top - well, if you can't see the problem with that,/ > then there is not much hope for you either...r  H I'm afraid you're the one who's misinformed.  Under the well-establishedH mechanisms for requesting recounts, the requestor is under no obligationL whatsoever to request a 'fair' (by whoever's determination) recount, just toL report irregularities purportedly justifying a recount in one or more votingG areas.  *Fairness* is the responsibility of the authority that actuallylK causes the recount to occur - the administrative officials or, if they failsI to act in a manner acceptable to all parties, the courts:  they aren't atbI liberty to dismiss the request simply because it may have been selective,-G but they have the authority (and arguably the obligation) to expand ther3 remedy if necessary to ensure its overall fairness.j   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 04:53:55 GMT9* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>0 Subject: Re: What is happening to the industry ?C Message-ID: <gcSj9.252244$5r1.10452178@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>n  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagetE news:rdeininger-2309022311230001@1cust236.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net... > > In article <3D8F21E6.51E9A59@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt& > <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote: >> > >JF Mezei wrote: > >d, > >> Re: What is happening to the industry ? > >y3 > >After a 224 year run, American democracy died onh0 > >December 12th, 2000 when the US Supreme Court8 > >decided it was more important to prevent a Republican8 > >riot than to count votes. As a result, we installed a8 > >corrupt, ignorant, amoral, deserting (from-the-armed-4 > >forces), drunk, cocaine-abusing, pretzel-inhaling9 > >foul-mouthed bigot* as the "leader of the free world".t9 > >This has had the predictable ripple effects throughouto > >the world economy.s >YH > Hey, you ignorant jerk.  Did you even bother to read the Supreme Court% > decision?  Or the Florida statutes?   G Can't speak for Atlant, but I certainly read the Court decision and wassK appropriately disgusted by it.  The dissent was reasonably sensible though.a  I The main problem currently is that the U.S. population is by and large aswI stupid and self-centered as Dubya is, so that while the rest of the worldnH can see us for what we have become we still think that everything's just dandy.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:03:31 GMTv. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)1 Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPedi2 Message-ID: <TN1k9.2191$142.119185@news.chello.at>  ` In article <3d909d44@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes:; >>http://www.openvms.compaq.com now has the HP color schemee  >>and format.  Happy hunting ... >iB >Using Netscape Navigator Gold V3.03 on OpenVMS VAX V7.2 produces: >c< >JavaScript Error: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/, line 814: >l >syntax error. >e >        function D8(d) {  >a >.........^l >dI >In fact, every page I visited produces the exact same error.  Better fixc >your pages.  G It did this on the old Compaq pages, twice on every page, and 5 times apE cookie request. So every page was 7 clicks to discard the annoyances.n+ But otherwise it was readable and usable !!a> But now, this new HP pages are unusable with NETSCAPE V3.03...   -- t Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERl% Network and OpenVMS system specialisti E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Sep 02 20:45:58 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)11 Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPedS) Message-ID: <qo8bdve592Uk@elias.decus.ch>f  f In article <79Kj9.256504$1S3.6327923@news.chello.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:l > In article <ojuPPW7MCXssgH=1KVi=seueVza6@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:; >>http://www.openvms.compaq.com now has the HP color scheme-  >>and format.  Happy hunting ... >  > Happy ???e > M > With NETSCAPE V3 I now also have this awful slooooooooow background picturewO > painting (and repainting and repainting) which led me stop digging www.hp.comy > some years ago...t > J > And it even ends in a "Request Timeout" loading some akamai.net address. > 6 > Count me as a non-supporter of the new web design !! >   3 No problem here, with Javascript and Java disabled.t     __
 Paul Sture Switzerlando   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:14:38 -0700t+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>e1 Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPedr' Message-ID: <3D90B99E.7010206@MMaz.com>i   Phillip Helbig wrote:i  G >>Though I do agree that any VMS site must be friendly to browsers that?I >>run on VMS, Netscape 3 is too old that it is unreasonable to expect anya* >>browser so out of date to be supported.  >>     >> >aE >What is meant by "not supported" in this case?  With good HTML, the nF >pages should be set up so that they look OK, or at least don't cause H >errors, if a browser with limited functionality accesses them.  On the J >other hand, if the error is caused by something non-standard in Netscape  >3, then I agree.  >eA At best, Netscape 3 does a marginal job of supporting the HTML 3 vI specification which leaves the 4.0 specification flapping in the breeze. lG  What you imply would be equivalent of stating that a program compiled  H on VMS version 3.x must work on 4.0 and for those of us who were around H when 4.0 arrived, we all know that just about everything broke; Kernel, G Executive and some Supervisor and User mode code.  You cannot maintain yH backward compatibility forever!  Can we say X86 and their kluged memory  model?  J >>Where Compaq and HP have really done the VMS community a major injusticeF >>is not aiding in the port of something like Mozilla to VMS to run onE >>BOTH the Alpha and VAX architecture.  To run on Alpha only, has theeG >>stench of Microsoft and eliminates many of the positive benefits that . >>VMS brought to the table, that VMS is VMS... >>     >> >cF >While I agree, I think the crucial point here is that the VAX is not C >IEEE.  Thus, this is really a no-win situation, even if a port of e7 >Mozilla for the VAX had been desired by DEC/Compaq/HP.e >tB By your implication, IEEE couldn't be emulated on the VAX through D libraries.  Though it may not be ideal, for the purposes of browser > accuracy, I cannot believe it would be impossible or unusable.  I >Considering that Mozilla is recommended only for machines with at least tI >256 MB RAM and rather fast CPUs, I doubt a port could run well on a VAX - >anyway. >,I So what stops Compaq/HP from contracting out to a small shop to port and jF refine another open source browser?  Browsers are a basis for must of G the desktop connectivity today.  Could that task really be that costly t% for the benefit of the VMS community?@  H >Of course, LYNX runs on VAX, and the HP VMS pages (as indeed all their   >pages) should be LYNX-friendly. >    >pG Lynx, sure...  Try visiting an e-commerce site and doing a transaction eG with Lynx, whether that site is the bank your business uses, customers aB that want on-line RFQ responses, or simply trying to book airfare.  F Lynx is a great tool for a specific task, but it is not a replacement B for a fully compliant HTML 4.0 browser anymore than Netscape 3 is.  G Ultimately, the issue at had is that Netscape 3 is too old for today's -F standards and specifications and to expect the world to stop spinning D just because VMS is stuck with such an old and crappy browser, well C *News Flash*, it ain't gonna happen so realistic solutions must be  
 considered...g   Barry    --    @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028o   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Sep 02 21:40:12 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) 1 Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPede) Message-ID: <WhEZ48k04E8y@elias.decus.ch>s  c In article <TN1k9.2191$142.119185@news.chello.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes: b > In article <3d909d44@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes:< >>>http://www.openvms.compaq.com now has the HP color scheme! >>>and format.  Happy hunting ...i >>C >>Using Netscape Navigator Gold V3.03 on OpenVMS VAX V7.2 produces:e >>= >>JavaScript Error: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/, line 814:a >> >>syntax error.f >> >>        function D8(d) { >> >>.........^ >>J >>In fact, every page I visited produces the exact same error.  Better fix
 >>your pages.  > I > It did this on the old Compaq pages, twice on every page, and 5 times aiG > cookie request. So every page was 7 clicks to discard the annoyances.6- > But otherwise it was readable and usable !!s@ > But now, this new HP pages are unusable with NETSCAPE V3.03... >   . Please try again with Javascript switched off. __
 Paul Sture Switzerland3   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:02:28 GMT . From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)1 Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPeds2 Message-ID: <8a6k9.5621$142.173377@news.chello.at>  U In article <qo8bdve592Uk@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:ng >In article <79Kj9.256504$1S3.6327923@news.chello.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes: m >> In article <ojuPPW7MCXssgH=1KVi=seueVza6@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:x< >>>http://www.openvms.compaq.com now has the HP color scheme! >>>and format.  Happy hunting ...f >>   >> Happy ??? >> aN >> With NETSCAPE V3 I now also have this awful slooooooooow background pictureP >> painting (and repainting and repainting) which led me stop digging www.hp.com >> some years ago... >> tK >> And it even ends in a "Request Timeout" loading some akamai.net address.o >> t7 >> Count me as a non-supporter of the new web design !!  >t4 >No problem here, with Javascript and Java disabled.  I No JAVA on VAX. And disabling Javascript only cures the D8 error message,rN but not the repainting and awful slow painting problems. So, still unusable...   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERH% Network and OpenVMS system specialists E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:41:44 GMTi1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>n Subject: Re: ZIP version 2.2' Message-ID: <3D8FC85E.4A3D3C6B@fsi.net>    aproc5@attglobal.net wrote:a >  > All,8 > I hope this is found to be a user error on my part! :) > I > I recently upgraded my ZIP and UNZIP programs to take advantage of someeM > features recommended to me by David Dachtera for self extracting files. NowjM > I have a small problem. The previous zip version was 2.0 and the new one isoE > 2.2. In one portion of our software is coded a ZIP command as below  > = > $ ZIP GPS$4500:ZIPFILE.ZIP GPS$4500_SCRATCH:*.*;* -X *.TEXTr > , > gps$4500 and gps$4500_scratch are logicals > I > This works fine in 2.0, but in 2.2 it was failing, so I tried manually:  >  > $ cop *.yuma [.temp]*.*d > $ cop *.txt [.temp]*.*0 > $ zip [.temp]zipfile.zip [.temp]*.*;* -x *.txt > [this works in 2.0]<M > %CLI-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer parametersSM > %DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer parametersr > $e > + > BUT using the new version switches I got:e > 6 > $ zip [.temp]zipfile.zip [.temp]*.*;* /exclude=*.txt6 > adding: [.TEMP]24_PERFECT_ORBITS.YUMA (deflated 95%)6 > adding: [.TEMP]32_PERFECT_ORBITS.YUMA (deflated 96%), > adding: [.TEMP]WEEK_90.YUMA (deflated 86%)- > adding: [.TEMP]YUMA_ALM.YUMA (deflated 86%)d > $s > N > So I guess there is a change in the -x switch from 2.0 to 2.2? Is this right" > please, or is this a bug in 2.2? > M > Any help definately appreciated as our software group don't want to issue ao# > new release just for this change!  > 	 > Regardsr  F Well, in the first place, you need to use "-V" or /VMS in your commandD line or the results may be useless, especially in the case of object files.  F If you don't specify a degree of compression effort, the default is -5> or /LEVEL=5, roughly equivalent to DeflateN. /LEVEL=8 or -8 is4 recommended for best compression (equiv.: DeflateX).   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2002 09:55:23 +0200' From: huber@mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber)  Subject: Re: ZIP version 2.2+ Message-ID: <7sw4cythkCsC@vms.mppmu.mpg.de>c  H In article <3d8f96b4_3@news1.prserv.net>, <aproc5@attglobal.net> writes: > All,8 > I hope this is found to be a user error on my part! :)I > I recently upgraded my ZIP and UNZIP programs to take advantage of someaM > features recommended to me by David Dachtera for self extracting files. NowmM > I have a small problem. The previous zip version was 2.0 and the new one issE > 2.2. In one portion of our software is coded a ZIP command as belowe > = > $ ZIP GPS$4500:ZIPFILE.ZIP GPS$4500_SCRATCH:*.*;* -X *.TEXT  > , > gps$4500 and gps$4500_scratch are logicals > I > This works fine in 2.0, but in 2.2 it was failing, so I tried manually:  >  > $ cop *.yuma [.temp]*.*u > $ cop *.txt [.temp]*.*0 > $ zip [.temp]zipfile.zip [.temp]*.*;* -x *.txt > [this works in 2.0] M > %CLI-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer parameterssM > %DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer parameters  > $i > + > BUT using the new version switches I got:  > 6 > $ zip [.temp]zipfile.zip [.temp]*.*;* /exclude=*.txt6 > adding: [.TEMP]24_PERFECT_ORBITS.YUMA (deflated 95%)6 > adding: [.TEMP]32_PERFECT_ORBITS.YUMA (deflated 96%), > adding: [.TEMP]WEEK_90.YUMA (deflated 86%)- > adding: [.TEMP]YUMA_ALM.YUMA (deflated 86%)l > $o > N > So I guess there is a change in the -x switch from 2.0 to 2.2? Is this right" > please, or is this a bug in 2.2? >   D I think the problem is not different behaviour of the -x switch, butL probably the way You "installed" the new version: apparently the new one is 4 the ZIP_CLI version, but the command is Unix syntax.H ZIP for VMS builds in 2 versions, supporting Unix or VMS command syntax.N If the software issuing the zip command can't be changed, make sure it invokesH the "Unix" syntax version, depending on how the command is "installed", + as a foreign command or via "set command" ?S   --: Joseph "Sepp" Huber, Max-Planck-Institut Physik,Muenchen, : http://wwwvms.mppmu.mpg.de/~huber                            ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.529 ************************