1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 21 Apr 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 220       Contents: Re: Average Uptimes by OS  Re: Average Uptimes by OS  Re: Average Uptimes by OS  Re: Average Uptimes by OS  Re: Average Uptimes by OS  Re: Average Uptimes by OS  Re: Average Uptimes by OS  Re: Average Uptimes by OS  Re: Average Uptimes by OS  Re: CHARON-VAX Pricing Re: CHARON-VAX Pricing Re: CHARON-VAX Pricing Re: CHARON-VAX Pricing Re: CHARON-VAX Pricing Re: CHARON-VAX Pricing+ Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments + Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments + Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments & Re: Day Light Savings for VMS and UNIX9 Re: DCL question (of the day)- null byte in string symbol 9 Re: DCL question (of the day)- null byte in string symbol ' defending VMS -- security and obscurity ! DLT magtape in a MicroVAX 3100-98  Re: fortran TYPE * vs C printf: Re: How to access DB2 on an AS/400 from Oracle on OpenVMS?H Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly* Re: Mirroring versus Shadowing - any diff?I Re: Newsgroup posting conventions, was: RE: VMS Software Product & Online P Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retai3 Re: OT: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments 3 Re: OT: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments 3 Re: OT: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments 3 Re: OT: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments 3 Re: OT: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments / OT: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments N Re: Press Release for OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal Update  Feel free to distribute!H Press Release for OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal Update Feel free to distributeL Re: Press Release for OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal Update Feel free to distributeL Re: Press Release for OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal Update Feel free to distributeL Re: Press Release for OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal Update Feel free to distribute Re: SARS Impact on HP   Re: Unix,VMS,Wintel connectivity  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:18:23 +0200 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>" Subject: Re: Average Uptimes by OS) Message-ID: <3EA3D37F.4070206@vajhoej.dk>    Mark E. Levy wrote: M > I see that system has been real busy there, Bill. Any system will be stable  > if you don't use it.  # Most system except Windows systems.   2 Somehow many windows system tend to leak resources even when idel.    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:41:58 +0100  From: Atanas <atanas@iec.co.il> " Subject: Re: Average Uptimes by OS) Message-ID: <3ea3d8c7@news.hai.iec.co.il>    Marty Kuhrt wrote:  ? > For an interesting look at average uptimes by OS check out...  > * > http://uptimes.wonko.com/stats.php?op=os > = > With the exception of one AIX machine, OpenVMSCluster leads = > the pack with over 180+ days.  Sun clocks in at 39 days and > > Windows averages about 3 days.  Plain old OpenVMS ranks 3rd.L Not only VMS have stability: I have linux machines and the only reason that J not all of them was a long time up is that the most I am updating OS when : new major release exists, but one I have with old version:" Red Hat Linux release 5.2 (Apollo)  [atanas@linux6 atanas]$ uname -a? Linux linux6 2.0.36 #4 Fri Jul 2 12:10:35 IDT 1999 i686 unknown  [atanas@linux6 atanas]$ uptimeG   1:37pm  up 279 days,  4:58,  2 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00 L I remember the last time that I needed to shutdown the machine was hardware  failure of display adapter. 
 Best regards.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:06:36 GMT ( From: "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com>" Subject: Re: Average Uptimes by OS. Message-ID: <w1Soa.287686$OV.332692@rwcrnsc54>  , "Atanas" <atanas@iec.co.il> wrote in message# news:3ea3f26a@news.hai.iec.co.il... F > Not only VMS have stability: I have Digital UNIX machine that is our winner > - see output from uptime: > > Digital UNIX V4.0D  (Rev. 878); Tue Feb 16 14:13:16 IST 1999
 > % uptimeE > 14:09  up 637 days,  1:36,  1 user,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00   I Another REAL BUSY system. Like I said, almost any system (except LoseDos) 9 can be "stable" as long as it sits running the idle loop.    ML   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:31:21 +0100  From: Atanas <atanas@iec.co.il> " Subject: Re: Average Uptimes by OS) Message-ID: <3ea3f26a@news.hai.iec.co.il>    Marty Kuhrt wrote:  ? > For an interesting look at average uptimes by OS check out...  > * > http://uptimes.wonko.com/stats.php?op=os > = > With the exception of one AIX machine, OpenVMSCluster leads = > the pack with over 180+ days.  Sun clocks in at 39 days and > > Windows averages about 3 days.  Plain old OpenVMS ranks 3rd.L Not only VMS have stability: I have Digital UNIX machine that is our winner  - see output from uptime: < Digital UNIX V4.0D  (Rev. 878); Tue Feb 16 14:13:16 IST 1999 % uptimeC 14:09  up 637 days,  1:36,  1 user,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00   
 Best regards.    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:26:24 -0400 (EDT) + From: Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu> " Subject: Re: Average Uptimes by OSH Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.53L-031.0304211024001.1860@unix2.andrew.cmu.edu>  & my winner so far is an Ultrix machine: 07:58:25 umbar $ uptime G   7:58am  up 673 days,  6:18,  6 users,  load average: 0.26, 0.07, 0.00   K Though, sadly, i downed the machine a few minutes after i took that uptime, < in order to upgrade the cpu from a DS5000/240 to a 5000/260.J The fun part, though, is that we see these nice uptimes from _all_ the DEC- systems!! nobody did it better than they did!    Isildur       " On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Atanas wrote:M > Not only VMS have stability: I have Digital UNIX machine that is our winner  > - see output from uptime: > > Digital UNIX V4.0D  (Rev. 878); Tue Feb 16 14:13:16 IST 1999
 > % uptimeE > 14:09  up 637 days,  1:36,  1 user,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00  >  > Best regards.  >    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:29:50 -0400 (EDT) + From: Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu> " Subject: Re: Average Uptimes by OSH Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.53L-031.0304211026450.1860@unix2.andrew.cmu.edu>  J a load avg of 0 does not mean the system has been idle for the whole time.M the load averages are all only a snapshot of the recent past (on the order of M a few minutes), and indicates the average number of processes waiting to run. G In the case of my machine, which was up 673 days, the machine had a low O load because it was early morning when i took the final uptime- nobody had been ? using it for hours. could be similar situation for this fellow.  Isildur     ( On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Mark E. Levy wrote:  . > "Atanas" <atanas@iec.co.il> wrote in message% > news:3ea3f26a@news.hai.iec.co.il... H > > Not only VMS have stability: I have Digital UNIX machine that is our > winner > > - see output from uptime: @ > > Digital UNIX V4.0D  (Rev. 878); Tue Feb 16 14:13:16 IST 1999 > > % uptimeG > > 14:09  up 637 days,  1:36,  1 user,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00  > K > Another REAL BUSY system. Like I said, almost any system (except LoseDos) ; > can be "stable" as long as it sits running the idle loop.  >  > ML >  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:06:02 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>" Subject: Re: Average Uptimes by OS8 Message-ID: <bp58avc5n8hpjt8dcmaevtvloug6hopprl@4ax.com>  D On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:41:58 +0100, Atanas <atanas@iec.co.il> wrote:   >Marty Kuhrt wrote:  > @ >> For an interesting look at average uptimes by OS check out... >>  + >> http://uptimes.wonko.com/stats.php?op=os  >>  > >> With the exception of one AIX machine, OpenVMSCluster leads> >> the pack with over 180+ days.  Sun clocks in at 39 days and? >> Windows averages about 3 days.  Plain old OpenVMS ranks 3rd. M >Not only VMS have stability: I have linux machines and the only reason that  K >not all of them was a long time up is that the most I am updating OS when  ; >new major release exists, but one I have with old version: # >Red Hat Linux release 5.2 (Apollo) ! >[atanas@linux6 atanas]$ uname -a @ >Linux linux6 2.0.36 #4 Fri Jul 2 12:10:35 IDT 1999 i686 unknown >[atanas@linux6 atanas]$ uptime H >  1:37pm  up 279 days,  4:58,  2 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00M >I remember the last time that I needed to shutdown the machine was hardware   >failure of display adapter. >Best regards.  I While I'm sure that almost any OS can be configured for high uptimes, try  the following:  1 1.  17-node cluster (multi-platform, VAX & Alpha) - 2.  250-300 applications running cluster-wide  3.  3500+users 4.  24x7 operation$ 5.  apply patches and/or OS upgradesG 6   add new hardware/remove old hardware (systems, memory, disk drives) F 6.  do this all with no noticeable outage to applications/users over 5 years   . I've done this with VMScluster configurations.   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:41:18 +0000 (UTC) ) From: Dan Foster <dsf@globalcrossing.net> " Subject: Re: Average Uptimes by OS3 Message-ID: <slrnba87pe.t9g.dsf@gaia.roc2.gblx.net>   V In article <w1Soa.287686$OV.332692@rwcrnsc54>, Mark E. Levy <mlevy70@attbi.com> wrote:. > "Atanas" <atanas@iec.co.il> wrote in message% > news:3ea3f26a@news.hai.iec.co.il... G >> Not only VMS have stability: I have Digital UNIX machine that is our  > winner >> - see output from uptime:? >> Digital UNIX V4.0D  (Rev. 878); Tue Feb 16 14:13:16 IST 1999  >> % uptime F >> 14:09  up 637 days,  1:36,  1 user,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 > K > Another REAL BUSY system. Like I said, almost any system (except LoseDos) ; > can be "stable" as long as it sits running the idle loop.   J Might be a terrible shock but VMS isn't the only platform capable of doing+ real work and maintaining a long uptime. :)   J For instance, we ordered a large AIX box (well, at the time, it was large)E and installed/configured it. Went live. 600 days later, we hit a very G interesting and quite involved bug that required upgrade of a number of I kernel based stuff so it took its first reboot. 810 days after _that_, it % was shut down for a data center move.   E Had we not had to do that one reboot earlier and the data center move D (lease was up), it'd have been up about 1400+ days in a row. WithoutG these downtimes, it'd probably have been up about 2500 days or so until J the day powered off for good (end of useful economic life -- power, space,= maintenance contract, on-hand spare parts down to zero, etc).   K What does it do? Well, it's quite 'beat up' pretty much every single second E of the day, but also receives much abuse stressing the I/O and memory K subsystem during its daily nightly jobs that cleans up the database. It's a D server that slams memory bus, slams network I/O, slams disk I/O (hasG special patches to keep certain stuff entirely resident in RAM to avoid F this problem), some CPU burnt on doing network I/O processing, and allF memory is used but yet not pushed into any page-outs through some veryF careful design of the application. It talks to a large number of otherJ off-site customer servers and is one of the most important customer-facing boxes that we have.   E Very few machines here are as stressed as it is, and it performs very K admirably. Point being that VMS is not the only platform that can pull such D a thing off. I do wish we had VMS boxes here still... an unfortunateJ decision much higher up was made a few years ago to migrate off VMS. Don't/ know why - can only guess maybe ISV-influenced.    -Dan   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Apr 2003 17:34:18 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: Average Uptimes by OS5 Message-ID: <b81a2q$542hm$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>   - In article <rFKoa.310704$Zo.62169@sccrnsc03>, + 	"Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> writes: ; > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message  > news:b7ooo3$30d9i$1@ID-  > E >> Still living ina fantasy world where VMS is the only stable system  >> in the universe!  >>
 >> -------@ >> ULTRIX V4.5 (Rev. 47) System #1: Sat Jan  1 01:26:25 EST 2000 >> UWS V4.5 (Rev. 6) >> >> # uptime I >>   7:46am  up 201 days, 14:24,  1 user,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 
 >> ------- >>B >> And that is hardly a modern Unix, all of which are more stable. > M > I see that system has been real busy there, Bill. Any system will be stable  > if you don't use it.  D It was a quarter to eight in the morning on a day off. What were youD expecting.  And, the subject was uptime by OS and not load handling.C remember, the mythical Irish VAX that ran forever was not a general D use machine but was dedicated to a single task. This machine when itE is really active is used for software development.  For one thing, it E is where at least one of the C-Kermit binaries at Columbia come from. A It also is not on any kind of conditioned power and the longevity E comes as just as much of a surprise to me as you.  I can't believe it F has been that long since the last time a drunk hit a power pole around here.   H I've never tried, but I would be willing to bet that RT-11 or RSTS wouldG have no problem staying up for at least this long.  If I could convince E Mentec to donate licenses for my (still in the dream stages) computer # museum maybe we could find out! :-)    bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:40:50 -0400 * From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX Pricing . Message-ID: <3EA3CAB2.26637.84195B7@localhost>  , On 18 Apr 2003 at 19:28, Michael Rice wrote:G > Well, I know next to nothing about CHARON-VAX, other than it's a VAX  K > emulator.  However, you've piqued my interest in this pricing issue.  Is  K > the pricelist just a big secret, is the pricing scheme so bizare that it  H > can't be published, or is it one of those "tell us how much money you 1 > have and we'll give you a quote" type of deals?   8 *sigh*  At the risk of opening the can of worms again...  7 My involvement as a reseller adds the following values:   A - Selection of the proper version of CHARON-VAX.  There are eight D   different versions of CHARON-VAX.  My job is to guide the customer1   to the one most suitable for their application.   D - Selection of appropriate peripheral hardware and software.  If the@   application requires Q-bus hardware, I work with SRI and other6   vendors to get the appropriate hardware and drivers.  D - Support during migration of the customer's application.  I provideB   this on an email & phone basis.  I also offer on-site migration.  @ - Some customers want a turn-key migration.  I can do that at my<   facility, and provide the appropriate results in a CD-ROM.  E - Point of contact for onging CHARON-VAX support.  If issues arise, I >   can handle 90+% of them without having to involve SRI's tech=   support group.  I also am the interface between SRI and the 7   customer for new versions of the CHARON-VAX software.   ? - I provide training on CHARON-VAX installation and support for @   customers who wish formal training before having CHARON-VAX in   their data center.  C - VMS administration.  Many of us on this group are gurus, but most C   customers do not have highly-experienced VMS staff.  Lots of them E   say things like "that VAX thing over in the corner that has run for @   years" -- I can help them before, during, and after migration.  A It's not a "how much money" issue -- it's because the process is  : pretty complicated.  Migrations frequently include server > consolidation, data migration, changes in backup methods, etc.  
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------C Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 = Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:54:26 +0200 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX Pricing ) Message-ID: <3EA40622.1070602@vajhoej.dk>    Stanley F. Quayle wrote:. > On 18 Apr 2003 at 19:28, Michael Rice wrote:G >>Well, I know next to nothing about CHARON-VAX, other than it's a VAX  K >>emulator.  However, you've piqued my interest in this pricing issue.  Is  K >>the pricelist just a big secret, is the pricing scheme so bizare that it  H >>can't be published, or is it one of those "tell us how much money you 1 >>have and we'll give you a quote" type of deals?  > : > *sigh*  At the risk of opening the can of worms again... > 9 > My involvement as a reseller adds the following values:    [long list omitted]   C > It's not a "how much money" issue -- it's because the process is  < > pretty complicated.  Migrations frequently include server @ > consolidation, data migration, changes in backup methods, etc.  ( That did not really answer the question.  ; Everybody with an IQ above 90 will know that those services : you list cost money - and that the sum of money depends og exactly what is required.   ; But what does a CD with the software + a license to install  it on one PC cost ?   6 I belive that most people like to know exactly what is# costing what (a breakdown of cost).    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:25:53 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>  Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX Pricing ' Message-ID: <3EA41B91.2030608@MMaz.com>    Arne Vajh=F8j wrote:   > Stanley F. Quayle wrote: > / >> On 18 Apr 2003 at 19:28, Michael Rice wrote:  >>K >>> Well, I know next to nothing about CHARON-VAX, other than it's a VAX=20 D >>> emulator.  However, you've piqued my interest in this pricing=20K >>> issue.  Is the pricelist just a big secret, is the pricing scheme so=20 H >>> bizare that it can't be published, or is it one of those "tell us=20F >>> how much money you have and we'll give you a quote" type of deals? >> >>; >> *sigh*  At the risk of opening the can of worms again...  >>: >> My involvement as a reseller adds the following values: >  >  > [long list omitted]  > F >> It's not a "how much money" issue -- it's because the process is=20? >> pretty complicated.  Migrations frequently include server=20 A >> consolidation, data migration, changes in backup methods, etc.  >  > * > That did not really answer the question. > = > Everybody with an IQ above 90 will know that those services < > you list cost money - and that the sum of money depends og > exactly what is required.  > = > But what does a CD with the software + a license to install  > it on one PC cost ?  > 8 > I belive that most people like to know exactly what is% > costing what (a breakdown of cost).   H There is no benefit in beating this dead-horse issue longer. If those=20H who have been harping on the price really had any interest in Charon,=20K they would be discussing this with SRI, or a VAR like Quayle rather than=20 C bantering this on a public list.  Price of any product is only a=20 H component of the purchasing decision and if anyone here were serious,=20D the first thing they would do is obtain a eval copy because if it=20J doesn't work as you need, then it doesn't matter if it is free or costs=20 $1B.=20     H Apply your same rationale and thinking to Windows 2000 severs and VMS=20F servers.  Sure, you can contact Dell and have a Windows 2000 Server=20K shipped to your door for $2k.  Granted, there are tons of draw-backs and=20 I hidden costs, but the fact is you can do this and have a basic working=20 J system at a published price.  Now, you cannot do that with a VMS server=20J because there is a laundry list of questions that either HP or a proper=20@ VAR should ask to determine the proper configuration for your=20J projection, network, or operating environment.  Because they don't just=20J published a fixed price for all VMS systems as prepacked shrink-wrapped=20G systems, does that mean they are playing a marketing hide-and-seek? =20 I Hardly, but rather they are attempting to eliminate those 'draw-backs'=20 * and 'hidden-costs' from the first example.    K Give it a rest and at least use an equal measure when attempting to hold=20 H people, businesses or products to common standards... Remember, we're=20J talking about a VAX hardware emulator that you expect to run flawlessly=20F and not volume Windows software that will burp, cough, and die just=20J because the stars are in alignment or the clock hits the top of the hour.= .      Barry    --=20   B Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO=20  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:46:12 +0200 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX Pricing ) Message-ID: <3EA42054.3060008@vajhoej.dk>    Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: > Arne Vajhj wrote:> >> Everybody with an IQ above 90 will know that those services= >> you list cost money - and that the sum of money depends og  >> exactly what is required. >>> >> But what does a CD with the software + a license to install >> it on one PC cost ? >>9 >> I belive that most people like to know exactly what is & >> costing what (a breakdown of cost). > > > There is no benefit in beating this dead-horse issue longer.  
 Your opinion.    I have another one.   ? >                                                     If those  H > who have been harping on the price really had any interest in Charon, K > they would be discussing this with SRI, or a VAR like Quayle rather than  " > bantering this on a public list.   Why ?   > Is VMS products, experiences with VMS product vendors, pricing@ of VMS products and suspicious business practices by VMS product2 vendors not a very relevant topic for this forum ?  B  >                                  Price of any product is only aH > component of the purchasing decision and if anyone here were serious, D > the first thing they would do is obtain a eval copy because if it J > doesn't work as you need, then it doesn't matter if it is free or costs  > $1B.  $ Have you ever worked in a business ?  : If you go out and spend time evaluating a product and then< conclude that the product is good and then it turns out that< the price is way to high, then the you will have one hell of< a problem explaining the boss why price was not investigated1 before spending time on the technical evaluation.    Time is money.  H >                             Now, you cannot do that with a VMS server J > because there is a laundry list of questions that either HP or a proper @ > VAR should ask to determine the proper configuration for your J > projection, network, or operating environment.  Because they don't just J > published a fixed price for all VMS systems as prepacked shrink-wrapped G > systems, does that mean they are playing a marketing hide-and-seek?   I > Hardly, but rather they are attempting to eliminate those 'draw-backs'  , > and 'hidden-costs' from the first example.  : I would expect to find prices of at least DS and ES series= on HP web-pages (I know that they have not always been there, 7 but that does not imply that they should not be there).   ; I have no problem with GS series not being on a price-list. 6 At that level we talk about very customized solutions.  8 But if replacing some VAX 3000/4000 systems is in teh GS- price tange, then I doubt you will sell much.   6 So the bottom line is that the secret price arise some natural suspicions:      - the price must be very high9    - they want to get people hooked on the product before       they hear the price7    - they want to maximize profit by charging different       customers differently   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:16:20 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>  Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX Pricing ' Message-ID: <3EA42764.6040109@MMaz.com>    Arne Vajh=F8j wrote:   > Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: > I >> If those who have been harping on the price really had any interest=20 F >> in Charon, they would be discussing this with SRI, or a VAR like=206 >> Quayle rather than bantering this on a public list. >  >  > Why ?  > @ > Is VMS products, experiences with VMS product vendors, pricingB > of VMS products and suspicious business practices by VMS product7 > vendors not a very relevant topic for this forum ?=20   I Yes it is but at the same time, you complaining because you cannot get=20 E the same discounts from HP that say someout out at SAIC or General=20 J Dynamic, Cubic, Raytheon, Teledyne, etc because they either have larger=20C volume or GSA discounting accomplishes nothing.  You cannot do a=20 = complete apples to apples comparison because Charon is not=20 K shrink-wrapped software.  Go to Oracle and get a quote for Digital's old=20 C Codasyl DBMS system, you can get at least three different prices=20 9 depending on who you talk too, for the same product!??!!?   C > >                                  Price of any product is only a  > K >> component of the purchasing decision and if anyone here were serious,=20 G >> the first thing they would do is obtain a eval copy because if it=20 G >> doesn't work as you need, then it doesn't matter if it is free or=20 
 >> costs $1B.  >  > ) > Have you ever worked in a business ?=20   J Sure, I've hammered code of VMS for 22 years, I've ran a privately held=20@ VMS consulting business, I've been the COO of a Semiconductor=20J Distribution Company and Computer Systems VAR, a Board of Directors for=20H two companys, and now a VP and CIO for an international RF components=20K manufacturer.  With the majority of these positions, I've had P&L and in=20 J many cases payroll responsibility.  Not that we're doing a tit-for-tat,=20I but I think I've been around the block a few times, and more than most...   < > If you go out and spend time evaluating a product and then> > conclude that the product is good and then it turns out that> > the price is way to high, then the you will have one hell of> > a problem explaining the boss why price was not investigated6 > before spending time on the technical evaluation.=20  G Then you are working for the wrong boss.  First, if you contact them=20 I direct and detail out your project, they can provide you a ball park. =20 D How long could that take?  Took me 15 minutes.  They are quick to=20K respond, and depending on what you are attempting to accomplish, the ROI=20 E is often more important than the initial acquisition, but then you=20 3 'being in business' would already know that, right?        >  > Time is money.  J Clitche of you considering the volume of messages you post on this list..= =20     I > Now, you cannot do that with a VMS server because there is a laundry=20 C > list of questions that either HP or a proper VAR should ask to=20 H > determine the proper configuration for your projection, network, or=20F > operating environment.  Because they don't just published a fixed=20H > price for all VMS systems as prepacked shrink-wrapped systems, does=20G > that mean they are playing a marketing hide-and-seek?  Hardly, but=20 C > rather they are attempting to eliminate those 'draw-backs' and=20 ( > 'hidden-costs' from the first example. > < > I would expect to find prices of at least DS and ES series? > on HP web-pages (I know that they have not always been there, < > but that does not imply that they should not be there).=20  K Yes, for base systems and you can also download configurators.  But, for=20 H the 'unwashed' who do not know the configuration requirements of VMS,=20H how that relates to their operations, or even the migration for a VAX=20H system, you are suggesting that they just point and click a VMS/Alpha=20H system into their cart and have it drop-shipped.  That is an equation=20G for disaster in that even if the hardware configuration was ok, what=20 K about all of the layered products licenses!  The point is, there is MORE=20 ) to the equation that the 'sticker price.'      > 8 > So the bottom line is that the secret price arise some > natural suspicions:   C Only if you are being unreasonable, which in my opinion, you are...    Barry    --=20   B Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO=20  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:23:15 -0400 * From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX Pricing , Message-ID: <3EA3F0C3.766.8D648F4@localhost>  - On 21 Apr 2003 at 18:46, Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: & > Have you ever worked in a business ?  * Yes.  I'm doing that right now, in fact...  < > If you go out and spend time evaluating a product and then> > conclude that the product is good and then it turns out that> > the price is way to high, then the you will have one hell of> > a problem explaining the boss why price was not investigated3 > before spending time on the technical evaluation.   B Absolutely.  That's why no one gets a license key from me without - getting a full proposal, with pricing, first.    > Time is money.  F Yep.  No use wasting my time working with a customer who can't commit - to what it takes to get the job done right...       
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------C Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 = Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 02:00:45 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments2 Message-ID: <t-ydneeOA-iSFD6jXTWcoQ@metrocast.net>  & "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message. news:glroa.11953$mZ4.148487@news.xtra.co.nz...0 > "VAXVMS" <bounce@notmail.com> wrote in messageG > news:BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BEA@rlghncst964.usps.gov... + > > DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments  > J > > The U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency halted the contract > lessK > > than two weeks after The Globe and Mail of Toronto published a story in > > > which programmer Theo de Raadt was quoted as saying he was "uncomfortable"  > > about the funding source.  > J > So what's the problem? Someone said he's "uncomfortable" with the sourceD > of his funding. So the funding was cut. So he must feel a lot more > comfortable now.  G Had you bothered to acquaint yourself with *why* he felt uncomfortable, F you'd have found that it was because he worried that some people mightE interpret his association with DARPA as some kind of approval of U.S. J military policy.  This was likely why he took advantage of the opportunity. to point out that this was in no way the case.  J What U.S. citizens should be uncomfortable with is an Administration whichL places petty politics above national security interests (which is what DARPAJ was funding Theo for).  Well that, plus little things like a complete lackH of respect for the Constitution, the rights it guarantees, internationalL law, and international opinion.  Regimes have been toppled for less:  do youJ happen to recall any wording in the Administration's casual endorsement ofC its 'one-bullet solution' for regime change that would prevent that . philosophy from being equally applicable here?   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:31:50 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> 4 Subject: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments# Message-ID: <3EA41CF6.202@MMaz.com>    Bill Todd wrote:  H >Indeed - both The Register and The Inquirer had comments on this.  JustM >continues Dubya's now well-established policy of sacrificing *real* security   >to political/ideological goals. > H Oh give me a break.  Who do you think de Raadt was working for if DARPA F was funding it, yes the DOD surely not Dolly-Madision, so to get this C high-and-mighty attitude is absurd.  If the DOD had key developers  I squawking in this manner, it would be of concerned because of what could oE happen if some hacked-of developer decided to code in a fail-safe or  I backdoor just for his political agenda and during a time of crisis, such OF as in war, key software components either failed or were compromised!    Barryy   -- e  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028V   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:03:27 +0200l6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>4 Subject: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments' Message-ID: <3EA4245F.50909@vajhoej.dk>    Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: > Bill Todd wrote:J >> Indeed - both The Register and The Inquirer had comments on this.  JustG >> continues Dubya's now well-established policy of sacrificing *real*   >> security " >> to political/ideological goals.  J > Oh give me a break.  Who do you think de Raadt was working for if DARPA H > was funding it, yes the DOD surely not Dolly-Madision, so to get this E > high-and-mighty attitude is absurd.  If the DOD had key developers nK > squawking in this manner, it would be of concerned because of what could rG > happen if some hacked-of developer decided to code in a fail-safe or rK > backdoor just for his political agenda and during a time of crisis, such -G > as in war, key software components either failed or were compromised!u  5 I think you forgot to read what the discussion about.e  2 You can not seriously think DoD was concerned that3 security enhancements to an *OPEN SOURCE* operatingP# system would contain backdoors ????   1 [they would be rather easily spotted and tracked]    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:12:46 +0200P6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>/ Subject: Re: Day Light Savings for VMS and UNIXo) Message-ID: <3EA40A6E.8050406@vajhoej.dk>t   Patrick Spinler wrote:B > Unix(s) store the clock internally in GMT or Universal time and F > translate it on output to the local timezone.  The translation code F > takes care of the necessary daylight savings adjustments, and since H > internal times are in a format that does not suffer from the need for G > large adjustments you need not worry about problems like overlapping - > file or database timestamps.  >G > In short, daylight savings time stuff is one of the things Unix does S > right.  # But VMS is doing it the same way !?j  3 (since VMS 6.x 10 years ago or something like that)0   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Apr 2003 08:21:51 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)B Subject: Re: DCL question (of the day)- null byte in string symbol< Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0304210721.2d9b8d0@posting.google.com>  Y briggs@encompasserve.org wrote in message news:<qvT7GSekywH9@eisner.encompasserve.org>... a > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEEMHAAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:c > >>-----Original Message-----D > >>From: briggs@encompasserve.org [mailto:briggs@encompasserve.org] [...]/B > >>In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEEIHAAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom$ > >>Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:O > >>> That doesn't make sense.  Why would parsing continue after it encountereda > >>> a "!"  ? > >>I > >>Because parsing is not a monolithic process.  You do apostrophe-baseddG > >>substitution first because the result of an apostrophe substitutionsG > >>could contain an exclamation point that would mark the remainder ofl > >>the command as a comment.s > > F > > Well, I don't know how they did it, but I had assumed that once an > > apostrophe were9P > > detected, then "!" would have had a different significance until the closingF > > apostrophe were detected.  At least that his I would have done it. > ! > I've always taken the model as:w > 6 > 	Macro substitute without regard for comment markers/ > 	Parse, including the elimination of comments3
 > 	Execute > K > > In your example below, when parsing the second line, q has already been  > > subsitutedN > > so on the scan you know you need to look for a double quote so the ! would > > notfE > > be treated  as a comment initiator, unless the parsing is ad hoc.a > G > Ahh.  I misunderstood your proposed scheme.  I thought you were goingNG > to pre-scan for exclamation points and then present a shortened inputu? > string to the macro engine.  Instead, it appears that you arenD > planning to scan for exclamation points at the same time as singleF > quotes and double quotes.  So you'd catch exclamation points createdC > during the substitution process as part of the subsequent rescan.0H > And you'd handle double quotes created during the substitution process > in the same way. > 8 > Yes, it could have been done that way.  But it wasn't. >  > 	John Briggs    F Actually, DCL does look for exclamation marks during the scanning. ButB it ignores them if the scan is being done in "string mode". If theF scan is not in string mode, which I call "command mode", then they are looked for and processed..   Example:   DCL> TYPE R.COM  $    SET VERIFY  $    B = "BRAVO" $    C = "CHARLIE" $    BLAH = "B !" D $    A = 'BLAH' + 'C' + "BEG ''C' END" ! '  A ' ' B ' ' C  ' # 'C' = '&C' $    SHOW SYMBOL A $    SET NOVERIFY  DCL> DCL> @R  $    B = "BRAVO" $    C = "CHARLIE" $    BLAH = "B !" A $    A = B ! + 'C'+ "BEG 'C' END" ! 'A ''B ''C  '# 'C'= 'CHARLIE'  $    SHOW SYMBOL A
   A = "BRAVO"s $    SET NOVERIFYu DCL>  A As you can see in the example, no apostrophe substitution is done4F after the first exclamation mark. Therefore, the exclamation mark must@ have been looked for and processed during "apostrophe scanning".  - [Convention: quote = quotation mark = "    !]h  < My current impression (always subject to change) is that DCLB repeatedly scans the command line until all apostrophes, quotationA marks, and exclamation marks are processed. It starts in "command_E mode" during which it looks for all three characters. Command mode is C "normal mode" during which exclamation marks are treated as comment:@ delimiters. String mode is primarily for when you build a stringE between quotation marks and characters are taken as string characters ; verbatim, except, of course, for quotation marks and double C apostrophes (more on this below). DCL toggles between the two modes-+ every time a quotation mark is encountered.:  F If an exclamation mark is encountered in command mode, the rest of theB line is marked as a comment and "comment processing" proceeds (seeC below). If an exclamation mark is encountered in string mode, it is E added to the character string and scanning continues from that point.y  E If an apostrophe is encountered in command mode, apostrophe subst. isiD preformed and a new scan is begun from the beginning of the line. IfF two consecutive apostrophes are encountered in string mode, apostropheC substitution is performed and a new scan is begun starting from the ? beginning of the line. (OK, maybe the new scan is done from the F beginning of the substitution -- the result is the same as long as DCL> remembers what mode it was in just prior to the substitution.)  D If a quotation mark is encountered, DCL toggles between command modeE and string mode. When two consecutive quotation marks are encounteredVD in string mode, a quotation mark is added to the string and the scan resumes in string mode.   F What is comment processing? Well, as you can see in the example above,: consecutive spaces immediately following an apostrophe areB mysteriously deleted and symbols spelled in uppercase and enclosed? thusly, '&SYMBOL', are translated, keeping the apostrophes, but:E discarding the ampersand. Comment processing also includes processinge     'F$VERIFY(<argument>)'  B While what actually happens may well be a little different, what IF have described above is consistent with observed DCL behavior, barringC any errors I may have made, things I haven't observed, and things I * have observed, but don't recall currently.     Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmano   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Apr 2003 12:19:28 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.orgB Subject: Re: DCL question (of the day)- null byte in string symbol3 Message-ID: <MYa5nL5xCk+H@eisner.encompasserve.org>   m In article <b096a4ee.0304210721.2d9b8d0@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:r[ > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote in message news:<qvT7GSekywH9@eisner.encompasserve.org>...n" >> I've always taken the model as: >> x7 >> 	Macro substitute without regard for comment markerst0 >> 	Parse, including the elimination of comments >> 	Execute  [major snip]H > Actually, DCL does look for exclamation marks during the scanning. ButD > it ignores them if the scan is being done in "string mode". If theH > scan is not in string mode, which I call "command mode", then they are > looked for and processed.    [snip example]  C > As you can see in the example, no apostrophe substitution is donetH > after the first exclamation mark. Therefore, the exclamation mark mustB > have been looked for and processed during "apostrophe scanning".   Yep.  You're right  / > [Convention: quote = quotation mark = "    !]/ > > > My current impression (always subject to change) is that DCLD > repeatedly scans the command line until all apostrophes, quotationC > marks, and exclamation marks are processed. It starts in "commandRG > mode" during which it looks for all three characters. Command mode isnE > "normal mode" during which exclamation marks are treated as commenteB > delimiters. String mode is primarily for when you build a stringG > between quotation marks and characters are taken as string charactersy= > verbatim, except, of course, for quotation marks and doubleoE > apostrophes (more on this below). DCL toggles between the two modes:- > every time a quotation mark is encountered.y > H > If an exclamation mark is encountered in command mode, the rest of theD > line is marked as a comment and "comment processing" proceeds (seeE > below). If an exclamation mark is encountered in string mode, it ishG > added to the character string and scanning continues from that point.a > G > If an apostrophe is encountered in command mode, apostrophe subst. istF > preformed and a new scan is begun from the beginning of the line. IfH > two consecutive apostrophes are encountered in string mode, apostropheE > substitution is performed and a new scan is begun starting from thetA > beginning of the line. (OK, maybe the new scan is done from the H > beginning of the substitution -- the result is the same as long as DCL@ > remembers what mode it was in just prior to the substitution.) > F > If a quotation mark is encountered, DCL toggles between command modeG > and string mode. When two consecutive quotation marks are encounteredpF > in string mode, a quotation mark is added to the string and the scan > resumes in string mode.  > H > What is comment processing? Well, as you can see in the example above,< > consecutive spaces immediately following an apostrophe areD > mysteriously deleted and symbols spelled in uppercase and enclosedA > thusly, '&SYMBOL', are translated, keeping the apostrophes, but G > discarding the ampersand. Comment processing also includes processingo >  >   'F$VERIFY(<argument>)' > D > While what actually happens may well be a little different, what IH > have described above is consistent with observed DCL behavior, barringE > any errors I may have made, things I haven't observed, and things I , > have observed, but don't recall currently.  : Your model is more detailed than mine and has the distinct. advantage of actually agreeing with the facts.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:07:18 +0000 (UTC)i, From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)0 Subject: defending VMS -- security and obscurity. Message-ID: <b811f6$cga$2@newslocal.mitre.org>  | David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes in article <3EA365D0.3090804@tsoft-inc.com> dated Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:30:24 -0400:K >As for that, please direct me to any vulnerabilities in VMS.  People keep dR >claiming that every OS has problems, but when asked, never seem able to point to 
 >any for VMS.r  I There are DOS attacks which are much more effective against VMS than theybE are against Unix or Windoze.  I was there when one crashed most of mytH cluster.  I'll tell you about it specifically if you work for HP and are$ interested in fixing the problem(s).  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgu> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Apr 2003 06:31:51 -0700- From: contracer11@uol.com.br (Shiva MahaDeva)h* Subject: DLT magtape in a MicroVAX 3100-98< Message-ID: <ddf392ea.0304210531.3d56e1d@posting.google.com>  6 Id like to know if I could connect a DLT driver in a @ MicroVAX 3100-98 (Personal Workstation). I want make my backups+ with a DLT driver. Now Im using DAT tapes.a Thanks in advance...   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Apr 2003 07:14:47 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org' Subject: Re: fortran TYPE * vs C printf,3 Message-ID: <oDtxDc$G9izt@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  W In article <b7plf50tiv@drn.newsguy.com>, john babiarz <john_member@newsguy.com> writes: > > I have on a vms/alpha 7.2-1, fortran f77 V7.2-180 C V6.2-008D > a program that is written in Fortran that create a process from a H > detached process the sys$creprc defines sys$output to be cred_in_1.log > H > whenever there is a fortran TYPE *,  statement, that is printed in theP > log. When the "C" routine is called, it creates a new version of cred_in_1.log= > and prints all the "C" printf statments to cred_in_1.log;2 i > J > Is there a way to prevent the "C" routine from creating its' own versionM > of the file, and using the same file that was orginally created? What wouldc7 > I have to do to the "C" program to use the same file?s > M > I would like to only have one sys$output file to handle all TYPE and printf:
 > statements.r  B As Steve Lionel wrote, you probably want a process permanent file.C With an ordinary detached process, all your .EXE file gets is a set3C of three logical names:  SYS$INPUT, SYS$OUTPUT and SYS$ERROR.  And,C4 of course, of these, you only care about SYS$OUTPUT.  @ The SYS$OUTPUT logical name is just a text string.  When Fortran? executes its first TYPE * statement, it will automatically opent> an output file using the SYS$OUTPUT logical name.  And it willC create a new version rather than appending to any existing version.s  ? When your "C" routine executes its first printf, the C run timeeB library will do essentially the same thing.  It will automatically? open its output file using the SYS$OUTPUT logical name.  And its? will create a new version rather than appending to any existinge version.   Solution 1:a  : 	When you create the detached process, make the image name@ 	SYS$SYSTEM:LOGINOUT.EXE.  Make the input file SOME-DCL-FILE.COM1 	Make the output file whatever you want it to be.r  = 	In SOME-DCL-FILE.COM, put in a line to execute your program:u  2 		$ RUN your-disk:[your-directory]your-program.exe  : 	One of the things that LOGINOUT.EXE will do for you is to> 	pre-open SYS$INPUT and SYS$OUTPUT as process permanent files.= 	Every subsequent attempt to open these files in Fortran or Cf> 	will result in an I/O stream attached to the pre-opened file.   Solution 2:   A 	In initialization code for your Fortran main program, explicitlyo= 	open your TYPE * output stream.  I think there is a negativeiA 	unit number associated with TYPE *.  Better yet, explicitly openV0 	unit 6 and use WRITE ( 6, * ) instead of TYPE *  ; 	With the file open, call an initialization routine in yourc> 	C code that explicitly opens standard output.  Make sure that@ 	you code the C open statement so that it will open the existing) 	file rather than creating a new version.   
 		John Briggs    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:57:42 +0200n6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>C Subject: Re: How to access DB2 on an AS/400 from Oracle on OpenVMS?q) Message-ID: <3EA406E6.8040204@vajhoej.dk>   L >>We are looking for a driver that will allow us to access a DB2 database onH >>an AS/400 from an Oracle database (8.1.7) on OpenVMS (7.2-1). From theI >>Windows world we use IBM Client Access, but I haven't been able to finde* >>Client Access for OpenVMS.  Suggestions?    A I am not an Oracle expert, but AFAIK then Oracle 8i has very good1 support for Java.m  + And IBM ofcourse has a JDBC driver for DB2.d  	 So maybe:R   Oracle --(JDBC)-- DB2e   was the way to go ?0   Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 06:51:19 GMTR' From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>gQ Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyi) Message-ID: <3EA392FB.2BE103DB@yahoo.com>    David Froble wrote:c >  ... snip ... > = > As for windoz, forget vulnerabilities.  All I want to do is A > restore a system disk should I lose one, with all the installedt: > applications, and be ready to go again.  While it may be> > possible, I cannot find a way to backup a windoz disk, whileA > it's the boot drive, such that the files could be restored onto  > a new drive.  ; As long as it isn't that horror XP (read the EULA to start)a= XXCOPY, available on <http://xxcopy.com> at a very reasonableo@ price, will handle routine cloning of your HD.  If the HD fails,B just switch to the other (cloned) HD and you are back in business.  @ Test it by buying a new drive, cloning it, switching drives, and% thenceforth cloning to the old drive.t   --  < Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net);    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.s:    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>  USE worldnet address!   ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 21 Apr 03 09:02:18 GMTB From: jmfbahciv@aol.com@Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolym+ Message-ID: <b80in2$rgo$6@bob.news.rcn.net>a  , In article <3EA365D0.3090804@tsoft-inc.com>,,    David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: >J. Clarke wrote:O >A: >> In article <00A1BAF7.D4960A23@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, ) >> winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU says...  >uL >>>>There are problems with Windows, but blame it for what it does, not for * >>>>what applications running under it do. >>>>I >>>I blame Microsoft in general, but Windows both has vulnerabilities of e itse; >>>own and enables vulnerabilities in application software.r >>>a >>  K >> Every OS has vulnerabilities.  If you think they don't you are deluding l >> yourself. >  > K >As for that, please direct me to any vulnerabilities in VMS.  People keep p< >claiming that every OS has problems, but when asked, never  >seem able to point to g
 >any for VMS.   ? Well, it helped to have the OS run on college computers who hadq< maintenance service contracts.  Those college critters were @ real good at finding all the little cracks in the security wall.  @ Unfortunately, that aspect of the computing doesn't happen since; everybody has their own system and don't have the challenge # of defying an Establishment system.i   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.d   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:52:46 +0000 (UTC) + From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)rQ Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyV+ Message-ID: <b810ju$ptq$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>s  E In article <b80in2$rgo$6@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:p- >In article <3EA365D0.3090804@tsoft-inc.com>,o- >   David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  >>J. Clarke wrote: >>; >>> In article <00A1BAF7.D4960A23@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, i* >>> winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU says... >>M >>>>>There are problems with Windows, but blame it for what it does, not for  + >>>>>what applications running under it do.e >>>>>hJ >>>>I blame Microsoft in general, but Windows both has vulnerabilities of  >its< >>>>own and enables vulnerabilities in application software. >>>> >>> L >>> Every OS has vulnerabilities.  If you think they don't you are deluding 
 >>> yourself.u >> >>L >>As for that, please direct me to any vulnerabilities in VMS.  People keep = >>claiming that every OS has problems, but when asked, never t >>seem able to point to  >>any for VMS. > @ >Well, it helped to have the OS run on college computers who had= >maintenance service contracts.  Those college critters were hA >real good at finding all the little cracks in the security wall.n > A >Unfortunately, that aspect of the computing doesn't happen since < >everybody has their own system and don't have the challenge$ >of defying an Establishment system. >   I Even in Universities where teaching of computing is decentralised so eachaH school has their own systems there will still be centralised systems for Administration. N For that matter the individual department/systems whether VMS, Unix or WindowsF fileservers, compute servers, mail servers etc will still be a target.  M The administrative systems particularly those containing student records willn be a particular target.0  O Having a system on software/hardware maintenance doesn't help very much when it0H comes to security. Security issues are generally handled outside of suchN support contracts. Once a vulnerablity becomes known it is in the vendors bestJ interest to provide a fix for all vulnerable systems irrespective of theirN support contract status. It's possible that if you have a support contract youO may get a heads up from the vendor before you hear about it from other sources. M However knowing about the vulnerability and fix is only half of the solution.lN The other half is being able to apply the patches. Unfortunately with some OSsJ the frequency of security problems means that it is politically impossibleN to apply the patches in a timely fashion - you would be taking the system down every few days.     
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University     >/BAHb >i( >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:23:41 -0400o: From: Charles Shannon Hendrix <shannon@news.widomaker.com>Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyv. Message-ID: <td218b.ep5.ln@escape.shannon.net>  @ In article <3EA365D0.3090804@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble wrote:  F > As for that, please direct me to any vulnerabilities in VMS.  PeopleF > keep claiming that every OS has problems, but when asked, never seem > able to point to any for VMS.   C I thought he said problems, not vulnerabilities.  VMS certainly has  problems.     E In the past, it definitely had vulnerabilities too, else DEC wouldn'ts have worked on fixing them.h  G > As for windoz, forget vulnerabilities.  All I want to do is restore a E > system disk should I lose one, with all the installed applications,eF > and be ready to go again.  While it may be possible, I cannot find aG > way to backup a windoz disk, while it's the boot drive, such that thea+ > files could be restored onto a new drive.a  H Yeah, I'd like that as well.  There are few things as painful as gettingE a Windows install to be "right".  There just is no way to do a backups. such that you can restore to a certain point.   E About the closest you can get is to do the install and get everythinggG how you want it, and then create a mirror of your boot drive, and storet0 that image on something large enough to hold it.  @ Even then, you will have a mirror of the OS before you installedF software which might make you want to make changes to the basic setup.  H It sucks, having to alter and tweak and OS so everything will run right,F especially when said OS buries all of the tuning behind a labyrinth of poorly designed GUIs.c   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:26:34 -0400e: From: Charles Shannon Hendrix <shannon@news.widomaker.com>Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyp. Message-ID: <aj218b.ep5.ln@escape.shannon.net>  ; In article <3EA392FB.2BE103DB@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote:   = > As long as it isn't that horror XP (read the EULA to start)o? > XXCOPY, available on <http://xxcopy.com> at a very reasonableeB > price, will handle routine cloning of your HD.  If the HD fails,D > just switch to the other (cloned) HD and you are back in business.  @ That's fine, as long as you trust a clone for backups, and don't= mind cloning after each tweak to make a partcular program run  right... :)e   Does xxcopy not work with XP?b  H If its just because the EULA says you cannot do it, I don't really care,% as I violate their EULA all the time.   C I only use Windows for games, but it took 4 days of tweaking to getgC Win2k running correctly the last time I installed it, and another 3 F weeks of minor tweaks as I installed software.  I don't like having to do that over and over.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:02:38 GMTa& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>3 Subject: Re: Mirroring versus Shadowing - any diff?t8 Message-ID: <nc58avgd351e7p9dst0cb02dmonjtbmmiu@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:21:00 -0400, JF Mezei( <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:   >Wil Marsh wrote:s   >r >> where mirror sets areD >> on the same controller. also shadow members can be dismounted for# >> backup while mirror sets cannot.n >nN >Conceptually, would it be possible to have the SAN take one of the drives outN >and present a new additional drive to VMS so that VMS could use it to perform
 >the backup ?n  G This is dependant on the technology, to some extent.  On HSGxx, you can 5 create clones and then present them as separate LUNs.e  H On HSV you create a snapshot or snapclone and present this as a separate LUN.   >dJ >VMS has the ability to see new drives appear dynamically (when a new nodeL >boots into the cluster, making its drives available for instance). So a SANH >should be able to make a new drive appear dynamically to VMS, correct ? >rJ >What about when you want to widthdraw that drive and place it back in theM >mirror, can VMS totally forget about a drive, or does it always remain knownn( >(marked offline/noavailable/whatever) ?  H It remains known until a reboot is performed.  This is a VMSism from way% back and has to do with UCB creation.    >fI >Another question: in the above scenario, is it possible from DCL to sendhJ >management commands to a SAN to execute that split of the  mirror set and! >presentation of an extra drive ?   C With HSV, you have SSSU that will allow you to send commands to thesI controller to create snapshot/snapclone LUNs and present them.  With HSG,e it's not quite as simple.   ? EVM could also be used, though this is an additional cost item.i   >uO >(eg: to automate the backup, you don't want to have to have someone physicallykN >telnet to the SAN to reconfigure the mirror array, then thell the operator toO >mount the new drive, execute backup and call him again once backyup is done soi5 >that the drive can be re-integrated into the mirror.  > M >With VMS host based shadowing, that is just a simple mount/dismount command.o  	 With HSV:=  " 1.   you'd quiesce the application 2.  issue the SSSU commands to:s'      a.  create the snapshot/snapclone,e      b.  create the LUNs      c.  present the LUN! 3.  mount the newly-presented LUNu 4.  run backupsw 5.  dismount the LUN; 6.  issue SSSU command to delete LUN and snapshot/snapclone   2 Also, as I said, EVM can be used to automate this.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:47:56 -0400 < From: "Peter Weaver" <WeaverConsultingServices@sympatico.ca>R Subject: Re: Newsgroup posting conventions, was: RE: VMS Software Product & Online5 Message-ID: <b810b0$58c9k$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>H   Main, Kerry wrote: > Peter, >n: > Thanks for the tip .. How does the attached look to your reader	 > client?) >...   A lot better, thanks Kerry.    -- Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc.u) Serving Southern Ontario/Western New Yorkr   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Apr 2003 07:33:22 -0700' From: icerq4a@spray.se (David Svensson)rY Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retai = Message-ID: <734da31c.0304210633.3dbcc05f@posting.google.com>e   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<3E9D6A4B.5020006@nospamn.sun.com>...e > David Svensson wrote: % > > Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancyiF > > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote > I challenge you to/ > > trawl back through all the public benchmarku > > B > >>results for the 8400-GS140-GS320, compare them with Sun/HP/IBM@ > >>results for those tests at the same time, you will find thatC > >>except for period between the introduction of the 8400 and whene= > >>Sun introduced the E4500-E10K there is no time when the 3s8 > >>servers held a performance lead over Sun/HP and IBM. > >  > > G > > I haven't seen that Sun have been any good on benchmarks the last 4 D > > years. When they are better they have lots of more CPU's and areH > > compared and still slower to machines with less CPU's. Before Power4" > > IBM were not that good either. > >  > D > Well you haven't been looking much further than SPECint and SPECfp > then.e  + It is SPEC that I have not been looking at.r  : > Sun currently leads TPC-H non clustered, SAP, PeopleSoft# > and a number of other benchmarks.'  F Yes, on TPC-H just recently submitted, but with 72 CPUs it is not that impressive.,  ; > IBM has the leading TPC-C result, it also had the leadingr& > result before Power 4 with the P680.   I don't see that?e   >  > > @ > >>There is a history around Alpha servers of hugely optimistic= > >>performance claims which have never been supported by any6 > >>collateral.2 > >  > > H > > From what I have seen and experienced Alpha has been a very fast CPUI > > and many benchmarks have also shown that. Digital/Compaq never really H > > advertised the Alpha so the "hugely optimistic performance" are from% > > real users solving real problems.  > >  > ; > Ahh you are refering to the Alpha syndrome. This is wheren: > people extrapolate the performance of a large SMP server? > from the performance of single CPU running a micro benchmark.a  D No, I am refering to the many users who where and are happy with theA performance of the large SMP AlphaServers on commercial workload..   /David   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 01:36:23 -0400w0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>< Subject: Re: OT: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments/ Message-ID: <3EA3834B.216BE89B@vl.videotron.ca>u   David Froble wrote:oM > There was no actions against free speach.  People are free to say what theysO > feel, but, others are free to react in a manner they see fit.  Can't have one  > without the other.  K Image is everything. A government is seen cutting funding as a result of anwI individual voicing his personal opinions. For a government that claims ithK protects free speech and freedoms, this loosk bad no matter how they try tohQ spin it or no matter what the real story is. What the public sees is what counts.s  M DOD/DARPA could have found other ways to quietly pull/reduce the funding at a L later time without giving the appearance that the decision was the result of an indovidual voicing opinions.,    O > As for Boeing and such, there is a rather large difference between a contract  > and a grant.  M Granted. However, it does show that DOD is a large enough entity that one can:L criticise one part of DOD without criticising the part of DOD with which you are working.  Q > But you sure cannot expect any entity to FINANCE an event at which they will be 
 > trashed!  I Actually yes. And you can work this to your advantage. Look at DOD events I where they fund hanckers whose sole purpose is to learn how to crack into:K systems, with DID carefully present at the event to learn all about the newc= tricks of the trade so they can better protect their systems.   I Similarly, you can attend those events and see what sort of arguments are K being presented so that you can then respoond to them in a very intelligent J matter and in a more widespread medium to reach everyone. Think of it as a9 focus group to find out what people don't like about you.g  K > I do expect that you and others with an agenda will be able to ignore the  > reality of the situation.w  5 I am not the one with the agenda. The folks who setupoF http://newamericancentury.org are the ones with an agenda and they areA implementing it through their leaders, Cheney,Wolfowitz,Rumsfeld.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 01:44:07 -0400y* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: OT: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments2 Message-ID: <O56dnUH07Za0GD6jXTWcoA@metrocast.net>  5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message & news:3EA362A3.4040603@tsoft-inc.com... > JF Mezei wrote:d >  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >jL > >>What we really have here is Agency A says to Group B, "I have some extraJ > >>money and I am willing to fund your project."  Group B says "OK, but IH > >>think your a jerk."  Agency A says "If you feel like that, I'll find0 > >>someone else who will appreciate the favor." > >> > >/ > >oK > > 1- If the funding agency is seeking the best possible "product" for thef money,K > > then personal views of one of the people doing the job shouldn't matter  ifK > > that person is the one who will provide the best product for the money.k > >nJ > > 2-It is exactly because the funding agency is part of a government whoI > > pretends to work so hard to protect free speech and liberty that thiss actionI > > gives that government a bad image because its actions are exactly thef	 opposite.n > >eJ > > In other words, the rich guy claims that he allows all his benefactors totalnG > > freedom of expression. But then he turns around and cuts funding toe	 those who % > > express different views from him.w > >cG > > DOD is very big. Does this mean for instance that if Boeing were tod	 criticise I > > a networking decision made by Darpa, that it would lose contracts for  buildingG > > fighter jets ? It seems that someone involved in the IT side of DODn losesVJ > > funding if he criticises not the DOD, but a US government policy which is even , > > more distant from the IT section of DOD. >e! > <snipping rest of a great rant>u >t > L > Ok JF, nice rant, but totally off target, and would you have said the same ifD > you supported the ouster of Saddam Hussien?  I seriously doubt it.  K What JF might or might not have chosen to say under different circumstancesoJ has absolutely nothing to do with the accuracy of his statements in *this*< situation, Dave:  try to straighten out your logic circuits.   > K > Read what Bill wrote, then try to match what you wrote to his statements.  Youm > can't.  > I suspect that JF could.  And since *I* certainly can, I will:  K Bill's characterization of DARPA's funding as a 'favor' was his first majorRJ error (as Arne pointed out quite capably elsewhere).  Funding an effort inG the expectation of a specific desired return (in this case, the furtheroG solidifation of security in OpenBSD) is not a favor:  it's a commercialc transaction.  E As such, the points JF made were relevant.  And his continuation intocL generalization was also relevant, even if you're too much of a 'good German'J to be willing to see the parallels.  The one valid point you made was thatL there is indeed a difference between a contract and a grant, but nit-pickingB one minor point in an analogy does not a persuasive argument make.   ...   G >  From what I read, the DARPA financed EVENT was going to be used as at forum to > piss on the DOD.  G If there's real evidence that that was planned I'd consider changing my K opinion:  got a solid reference?  All I read was that it was a get-togethercK to brain-storm OpenBSD security improvements - though of course when peopletL gather together in that kind of intense round-the-clock setting all sorts of9 extraneous personal stuff may creep in from time to time.e  K My own approach to the DoD would be very much like Theo's:  I wouldn't haveeK any problem accepting money for work that I considered generally worthwhile H and that would be openly available, since that's the kind of work I'd doL anyway (and that once completed the DoD would be able to use whether I likedK it or not).  And I wouldn't touch a lot of their projects, nor would I want L any association with them to be interpreted as approval of some of what theyK do, nor would I hesitate in the least to say exactly what I thought in suchn cases.  J I (and my guess would be Theo as well) mostly don't blame the military forC what Dubya ordered them to do:  I primarily blame him and those whotJ influenced him.  So while I have to admit that I wish our invasion of IraqI had failed (which likely would have only occurred because of considerabletK losses on our side), that's just an expression of what I feel should happentI to *any* illegal aggressor rather than an expression of personal ill williG (though I understand that someone in the military might have difficulty D understanding the difference, and have considerable sympathy for the! position that Dubya put them in).i   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 03:18:14 -0400o* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: OT: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments2 Message-ID: <04mcneqbm_ylBj6jXTWcqg@metrocast.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3EA355F4.AED0AD7A@fsi.net...S > Arne Vajhj wrote: > >  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:   ...I  I > >  > What we really have here is Agency A says to Group B, "I have some' extraLK > >  > money and I am willing to fund your project."  Group B says "OK, butc IsK > >  > think your a jerk."  Agency A says "If you feel like that, I'll findm3 > >  > someone else who will appreciate the favor."e > > J > > This is exactly how the old east block worked. You have two applicantsL > > for a job as manager for a factory, one who know about the what is being: > > done at the factory but also is in opposition, and oneK > > that is less qualified but has the rigth opinions, and you pick the one   > > with the "correct" opinions. >oI > But that describes perfectly the politcal climate inside a corporation,eI > as well as the attitude that customer service people take toward peoplei > calling with complaints.   Not in a well-run corporation.   >eI > In a corporation, the ones who get results are frequently the ones bestiI > able to build politcal alliances, whether their intentions are truly in % > the company's best interest or not.m > C > In a customer service scenario, I'm sure we can all cite personalmH > experiences where ragging on the CS rep. failed to produce the desiredJ > result while being calm and sociable tends to produce the desired result" > more often than the alternative. >  > It's human nature, no?  H Hey, things like bribery and rape are part of human nature, too.  Do youH find them acceptable just because of this, or do you think people shouldL aspire to a higher standard of behavior in such cases, and that corporationsF (or in the case under discussion the U.S. taxpayers) have the right toI expect a bit more professionalism of the people they are paying to do then job *right*?   ...   E > > That job was about operating system security. What the guy thinksu. > > about the war in Iraq is not job relevant. >rA > Well, yes and no. If his beliefs in the project's relevance are.C > questionable, I'd venture to say that his value to the venture ise > likewise questionable.  H Of course, since to the best of my knowledge Theo had absolutely no suchI reservations about the project's relevance (indeed, he considered it wellmH worth pursuing, to the point that he's continuing to do so anyway), your comment is - well, irrelevant.  % Not one of your better efforts, Dave.g   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:26:51 +0200o6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>< Subject: Re: OT: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments) Message-ID: <3EA3C76B.2060503@vajhoej.dk>b   David J. Dachtera wrote: > Arne Vajhj wrote:H >>This is exactly how the old east block worked. You have two applicantsJ >>for a job as manager for a factory, one who know about the what is being8 >>done at the factory but also is in opposition, and oneI >>that is less qualified but has the rigth opinions, and you pick the one  >>with the "correct" opinions.  I > In a corporation, the ones who get results are frequently the ones bestnI > able to build politcal alliances, whether their intentions are truly ine% > the company's best interest or not.<  
 That is seen.e  8 But one of the goof things about the free market is that= a company where this become the dominant factor goes bankruptt sooner or later.   Not so with governments.  C >>The result was economic disaster and a regime that people did nott >>want to live under.a > I > In the context to which you refer, yes, that's true: those who can talkeF > the regime's talk are more likely to stay in favor than those who doH > not. The rest of the world is not much different, even if the scenario > is less extreme.   True.b  5 But do we want to go in the direction of more of thath/ kind or in the direction of less of that kind ?o  , >>I would expect any government that either: >>    - respect democracy  >>    - wants efficiencyA >>to hire the best man for the job - no matter what his politicalc >>opinions are.h > H > I can agree; however, having a report who thinks I'm a jerk would makeI > my life as his/her supervisor supremely challenging. Do I wanna do thate+ > to myself? Would you? Rather depends, eh?e    I am not saying that it is easy.  = But there are an old saying in Denmark: "it takes a long timei* completing something you do not start on".   :-)   C >>That job was about operating system security. What the guy thinksa, >>about the war in Iraq is not job relevant. > A > Well, yes and no. If his beliefs in the project's relevance aregC > questionable, I'd venture to say that his value to the venture isr > likewise questionable.  - I have heard no evidence that he did consider  hardening *BSD irrelevant.    ? >>But I would expect them to fund the projects they think makesl< >>the biggest benefits for the US defense/country and not toA >>fund projects whose team members support current US government.  > = > Then "they" should be the major backers of OpenVMS, eh? ;-).   No.    Less need for enhancements !!!!r   :-)b  A >>If you think DARPA funding is intended to be granted as favourseF >>and that is is acceptable for a government to use tax payer money asG >>favours to people supporting its politics then I guess you are rigth.  > I > What is acceptable versus what is commonly accepted could become rathermA > an ulgy debate. I'm hoping this does not descend to that level.    OK.u  + I guess I have made my point of view clear.d  < >>My guess is that you would not consider that fair. Because7 >>your political opinions and activities are not of his  >>business.t > I > ...and also because (I believe) that would be a violation of U.S. labor   > and/or employee relations law.   Probably for good reasons.  E >>So you need to decide whether you want the 100 absolute best or they  >>100 best among those you like. > C > However, the two sets do overlap: they are not mutally exclusive.i  ? It is not mutually exclusive to be "in favour" and "competent".s  > It is mutually exclusive to "hire the best" and "hire the best in favour".t   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:30:34 +0200 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>< Subject: Re: OT: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments) Message-ID: <3EA3C84A.9040307@vajhoej.dk>l   David Froble wrote:eH >  From what I read, the DARPA financed EVENT was going to be used as a  > forum to piss on the DOD.s  J  > Now, you can have a contract, and perform according to the terms of the)  > contract, and still say what you want.   >5  > You can have a grant, and still say what you want.e  >J  > But you sure cannot expect any entity to FINANCE an event at which they  > will be trashed!<   ????   What did you read ?   2 I read that the person in question wrote something3 in a canadian newspaper about what he thougth aboutl
 US policy.  0 And that he was funded to improve *BSD security.   ARne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:30:24 -0400h! From: VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com>e8 Subject: OT: Re: DARPA Cancels OS Project After CommentsK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BED@rlghncst964.usps.gov>o  , Marty Kuhrt [kuhrt@encompasserve.org] wrote: >  >-L >In article <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BEA@rlghncst964.usps.gov>,& >>>VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com> writes:+ > DARPA Cancels OS Project After Comments  6 >  1+ > By MATTHEW FORDAHL, AP Technology Writer a > L > SAN JOSE, Calif. - The U.S. military's research agency cut off grant moneyD > for helping to develop a secure, free operating system after a top< > programmer made anti-war statements to a major newspaper.  >w >[blah blah blah]s >iD >> "A tenured professor was telling me not to exercise my freedom of speech," >> de Raadt said.  >a@ >A specious argument at best but then again it is to be expected@ >as it is the standard line that liberal facists use.  "I shouldB >be able to say anything I want without consequences!", scream the@ >liberal wankers.  "You can't say anything against what I say!",? >they bray in a much louder bleat whilst beating the "Dubbya ist> >Hilter" drum, ignoring the irony that their actions intend to5 >deny their detractors _their_ freedom of expression.n >lA >The professor was _not_ keeping de Raadt from speaking.  Freedomr@ >of speech doesn't necessarily mean freedom from consequences.   >  <snipped my sig>    H If *I* did a press interview and made certain statements *which I knew* A would garner the disapproval of either my employer or my current rA customer, it would be unrealistic of me to *not* expect negative aC ramifications as a direct result of my having made such statements.i  @ It's disingenuous, to say the least, for people to poke a stick A into the hornets' nest and then feign surprise at the subsequent p: swarm of irate arthropods which results from their action.  @ Now, as to my hopes for a VMS-related discussion vis-a-vis this E development, I understand that DOD still uses VMS for many purposes, ,G and it is my hope that this event increases the possibility that, with  @ fewer *really secure* choices, they will do so for even longer.    WWWebb   ========================  William W. Webb - EMS Operations) OpenVMS Systems Support - USPS DSSC Annext, 4730 Hargrove Road, Raleigh, NC 27616-2874  > 919.325.7500 x4186  <FirstInitialLastNameAtEmailDotUSPSDotGov>   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:42:12 -0700 (PDT)o. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>W Subject: Re: Press Release for OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal Update  Feel free to distribute!u@ Message-ID: <20030421174212.79432.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com>   Hmm !   4 I am sorry to say this but: WHAT UGLY HOME PAGE !!!   ) Why not give it to Ken Farmer manage ????      Regards    FC E6 --- "Skonetski, Susan" <Susan.Skonetski@hp.com> wrote: > H > April 21st, 2003 -- Dallas Texas.    The OpenVMS Hobbyist WEBsite justF > received a facelift and  upgrade into the OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal.   > I > Anyone who is interested in HP's OpenVMS will find someting of interestF > for them at the OpenVMSi > Hobbyist Portal website! > G > The OpenVMS Hobbyist WEBsite has been  the source on the Internet forrB > free OpenVMS and OpenVMS  Layered Product Licenses  for personalJ > non-business use of  the most highly available, scalable and  Enterprise; > class computer operating system in the Industry, OpenVMS.Y > C > The OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal continues the tradition of supportingcF > Hobbyists, computer collectors and  enthusiasts around the world notE > only with free licenses, but with a new simpler domain name for the ) > Portal and lots of updated information.  > ! > http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/e >  > G > The OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal  has a simplified, single page structuredjJ > process for obtaining OpenVMS  Hobbyist licenses and continues to  offerH > OpenVMS Hobbyist CDroms at a hobbyist discounted prices for  those who+ > need an OpenVMS software distributions.  b > G > With the original website functions,  the OpenVMS Hobbyist portal hastI > new links  such as the OpenVMS  Hobbyist FAQ, OpenVMS Hobbyist Gallery,nI > DEC and Hobbyist History timelines, OpenVMS Hobbyist Artwork  (for yourrA > fashionable webpages running on your OpenVMS Hobbyist Systems).n > A > The OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal also has the best in OpenVMS Links,DG > freeware, open source software, and  Third parties who participate in- > the OpenVMS Hobbyist program.1 > J > VAX, Alpha and soon Itanium will be supported under the OpenVMS HobbyistH > Program!  Visit the OpenVMS  Hobbyist Portal, Join a particpating UserE > Group around the world and sign up for free use of OpenVMS  on your  > personal systems today!n > ( > -- Dallas Ft Worth Computer User Group > % >     David Cathey   DFWCUG Presidenth; >                    OpenVMS SIG Chair Encompass User Groupe     =====  ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazill fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?- The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo  http://search.yahoo.come   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Apr 2003 05:41:40 -07001 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski)bQ Subject: Press Release for OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal Update Feel free to distributed= Message-ID: <857e9e41.0304210441.2a69a281@posting.google.com>r   ----Original Message-----f From: Skonetski, Susan m$ Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 8:41 AM To: Skonetski, SusanF Subject: Press Release for OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal Update Feel free to distribute!1      F April 21st, 2003 -- Dallas Texas.    The OpenVMS Hobbyist WEBsite justB received a facelift and  upgrade into the OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal.  > Anyone who is interested in HP's OpenVMS will find someting of  interest for them at the OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal website!  E The OpenVMS Hobbyist WEBsite has been  the source on the Internet forw@ free OpenVMS and OpenVMS  Layered Product Licenses  for personal= non-business use of  the most highly available, scalable and tD Enterprise class computer operating system in the Industry, OpenVMS.  A The OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal continues the tradition of supportinglD Hobbyists, computer collectors and  enthusiasts around the world notD only with free licenses, but with a new simpler domain name for the ' Portal and lots of updated information.r   http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/S    E The OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal  has a simplified, single page structuredeB process for obtaining OpenVMS  Hobbyist licenses and continues to B offer OpenVMS Hobbyist CDroms at a hobbyist discounted prices for 1 those who need an OpenVMS software distributions.t  E With the original website functions,  the OpenVMS Hobbyist portal hasa> new links  such as the OpenVMS  Hobbyist FAQ, OpenVMS HobbyistF Gallery,  DEC and Hobbyist History timelines, OpenVMS Hobbyist Artwork@  (for your fashionable webpages running on your OpenVMS Hobbyist	 Systems).-  ? The OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal also has the best in OpenVMS Links, E freeware, open source software, and  Third parties who participate in  the OpenVMS Hobbyist program.o  ? VAX, Alpha and soon Itanium will be supported under the OpenVMSk= Hobbyist Program!  Visit the OpenVMS  Hobbyist Portal, Join a.D particpating User Group around the world and sign up for free use of( OpenVMS  on your personal systems today!  & -- Dallas Ft Worth Computer User Group  #     David Cathey   DFWCUG Presidenti9                    OpenVMS SIG Chair Encompass User Groupe   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Apr 2003 08:04:01 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)>U Subject: Re: Press Release for OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal Update Feel free to distribute 3 Message-ID: <NiT64h6yIGsx@eisner.encompasserve.org>f  q In article <857e9e41.0304210441.2a69a281@posting.google.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes:   ! > http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/o  2 Possibly the DNS information is still propagating.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:23:46 +0200t( From: "H.Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl>U Subject: Re: Press Release for OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal Update Feel free to distributec5 Message-ID: <JhSoa.17420$Wd5.2216503@zonnet-reader-1>i   Sue,  L very nice indeed. Is it permitted to take the artwork and put it up on one's
 own webpages?c   Hans@ "Sue Skonetski" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht7 news:857e9e41.0304210441.2a69a281@posting.google.com...w > ----Original Message-----  > From: Skonetski, Susan& > Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 8:41 AM > To: Skonetski, SusanH > Subject: Press Release for OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal Update Feel free to
 > distribute!U >  >W >oH > April 21st, 2003 -- Dallas Texas.    The OpenVMS Hobbyist WEBsite justD > received a facelift and  upgrade into the OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal. >r@ > Anyone who is interested in HP's OpenVMS will find someting of" > interest for them at the OpenVMS > Hobbyist Portal website! >rG > The OpenVMS Hobbyist WEBsite has been  the source on the Internet foraB > free OpenVMS and OpenVMS  Layered Product Licenses  for personal> > non-business use of  the most highly available, scalable andF > Enterprise class computer operating system in the Industry, OpenVMS. > C > The OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal continues the tradition of supportingtF > Hobbyists, computer collectors and  enthusiasts around the world notE > only with free licenses, but with a new simpler domain name for the ) > Portal and lots of updated information.h >r! > http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/t >  >iG > The OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal  has a simplified, single page structuredwC > process for obtaining OpenVMS  Hobbyist licenses and continues to C > offer OpenVMS Hobbyist CDroms at a hobbyist discounted prices forb3 > those who need an OpenVMS software distributions.- >-G > With the original website functions,  the OpenVMS Hobbyist portal hasn@ > new links  such as the OpenVMS  Hobbyist FAQ, OpenVMS HobbyistH > Gallery,  DEC and Hobbyist History timelines, OpenVMS Hobbyist ArtworkB >  (for your fashionable webpages running on your OpenVMS Hobbyist > Systems).D >dA > The OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal also has the best in OpenVMS Links,iG > freeware, open source software, and  Third parties who participate inn > the OpenVMS Hobbyist program.n >oA > VAX, Alpha and soon Itanium will be supported under the OpenVMS ? > Hobbyist Program!  Visit the OpenVMS  Hobbyist Portal, Join adF > particpating User Group around the world and sign up for free use of* > OpenVMS  on your personal systems today! > ( > -- Dallas Ft Worth Computer User Group >u% >     David Cathey   DFWCUG Presidentp; >                    OpenVMS SIG Chair Encompass User Groups   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Apr 2003 09:27:48 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)sU Subject: Re: Press Release for OpenVMS Hobbyist Portal Update Feel free to distributeu3 Message-ID: <A0yfM0$eOgCO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <JhSoa.17420$Wd5.2216503@zonnet-reader-1>, "H.Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl> writes: > Sue, > N > very nice indeed. Is it permitted to take the artwork and put it up on one's > own webpages?d  H Sue posts a lot of things over which she does not have absolute control,F so rather than sending her back to the source in this particular case,( you might want to use the webmaster link  . 	http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/webmaster.html  0 to ask the question (and then report back here).  G I got an answer via that mechanism within an hour today (to a differentg
 question).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:32:16 +0200 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> Subject: Re: SARS Impact on HP) Message-ID: <3EA40F00.8090606@vajhoej.dk>M   JF Mezei wrote:-P > About 200 Toronto (canada) Area HP employees were quarantined for about a weekU > because they had come into contact with employees who had shown some SARS symptoms.    Relating to the subject line.c   SARS seems to be a nasty one.   ! It will probably effect everyone.   7 I can not see why it should hit HP harder than SUN, IBMn or Dell.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:52:27 -0700, From: "JeffK." <uce@ftc.gov>) Subject: Re: Unix,VMS,Wintel connectivity ' Message-ID: <3EA413BB.B3EFE69D@ftc.gov>t   Client / Server mostly.s   JeffK.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.220 ************************