1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 04 Aug 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 427       Contents: DEC 3000 M500 CXT error ? G Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates) P Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates) Dates)DaA Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer - Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver - Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver - Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer B Re: PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processorB Re: PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processor& Re: [Change topic -> OT] Pence/Pennies  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 02:28:33 GMT , From: opcom <nounwantedmail_eccm@swbell.net>" Subject: DEC 3000 M500 CXT error ?* Message-ID: <3F2DE050.D389A2D0@swbell.net>   Well here's a good one for all the hardware wizards.. And I know someone in this most wise and august group has got to know the answer.    This questions' been floating around out here for a long time.. never found an answer to this -only unanswered questions going back to 1998! So it should be worthy of a challenge, finally put it to rest.    --  Z Firing up Ye Olde DEC3000-500 (Flamingo/Pelican), the self test is fine except this error:   CXT     ?? 000 0064    I am trying to get the DEC3000 M500 going for free to give to a new VMS hobbyist, so any info on what this cryptic error means, and where I can learn more, would be greatly appreciated. The machine seems to run in spite of this,] but I have only just installed VMS, no licences yet etc, so I can't say what it might affect.    I can't find the information on this anywhere, and don't have the manuals on the old turbochannel machine. I don't really know what the CXT is! Hate to have to pitch it, it's got a 19" CRT and all. And this guy NEEDS VMS. He's using a MAC for goodness sakes!    --  K Please do also reply to me directly as I can't always get to news reliably. R Please BE SUre to take off the "nounwantedmail_" part of the address to e-mail me.   Thank you,   Patrick Jankowiak,    VMS Hobbyist Program licensee #11 Director, The Old Vax Retirement Home, Dallas, TX    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 05:39:33 GMT  From: ian@hammo.com (paramucho) P Subject: Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates)2 Message-ID: <3f2ecb14.17160444@news.supernews.com>  / On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:05:25 +0200, Thord Nilson  <thordn@stacken.kth.se> wrote:   >  >	.PSECT	NULJOB,OVR,GBL 5 >	BIT	#4000,@#177776		;      0  32737 "'_ 5 %HX1 \ 65 % >					;      2   4000 "  BS %AKH \ 10 % >					;      4 177776 "'~*  %?8N \377 + >	BNE	G22			;      6   1005 "^E^B % L7 \  2 1 >G10:	MOV	R2,R1			;     10  10201 "* ^P %BYY \ 20 - >G12:	WAIT				;     12      1 "^A   %  A \  0 . >	SOB	R1,G12			;     14  77102 " B ~ %THB \176* >	ROL	R0			;     16   6100 " @FF %A8P \ 14* >	BR	G10			;     20    773 "'{^A % L$ \  1  B That's an interesting bit of code. If that's the idle loop then it0 looks like RSTS was completely interrupt driven.  B One of the problems running operating systems in emulators is thatD they usually never let go of the CPU -- the code above would do just9 that (if the WAIT instruction was implemented correctly).      -- Ian " Impressive If Haughty - Q Magazine   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:05:25 +0200* From: Thord Nilson <thordn@stacken.kth.se>Y Subject: Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates) Dates)Da Q Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.50.0308032252210.24383-100000@gustavskorv.stacken.kth.se>   - On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, John A. Dundas III wrote:     . >> About data & address led patten for nuljob.  L > It's my understanding that worked in RSTS from around V8 (? well after 7.2J > anyway) to V9.1.  The code was removed in V9.2.  In V7.2 and prior (down) > to what?) only the data lights "moved".  > J > Anyone remember what setting the address display select switch should beH > set to?  I assume one should be watching Supervisor I or D space.  The8 > data display select switch needs to be set to Bus Reg. > I > I am trying to emulate this on a Mac using SIMH as the base.  I can see F > the data lights moving, however the address lights don't do anythingL > interesting in any of the settings.  Was there a patch necessary to enable > the address display? >  This applies  for RSTS/E V8.0:$ When running sysgen, to the question& "Generate monitor ?              #Y #" answer: Y/L   > This will bring in the "lights" module, see disassembly below:   	.TITLE	LIGHTS   	.IDENT	/08.006/   	.GLOBL	LIGHTS       	.PSECT	NULJOB,OVR,GBL4 	BIT	#4000,@#177776		;      0  32737 "'_ 5 %HX1 \ 65$ 					;      2   4000 "  BS %AKH \ 10$ 					;      4 177776 "'~*  %?8N \377* 	BNE	G22			;      6   1005 "^E^B % L7 \  20 G10:	MOV	R2,R1			;     10  10201 "* ^P %BYY \ 20, G12:	WAIT				;     12      1 "^A   %  A \  0- 	SOB	R1,G12			;     14  77102 " B ~ %THB \176 ) 	ROL	R0			;     16   6100 " @FF %A8P \ 14 ) 	BR	G10			;     20    773 "'{^A % L$ \  1 4 G22:	MOV	#176000,R3		;     22  12703 "'C^U %CSK \ 25$ 					;     24 176000 "  '| %?L2 \374/ 	MOV	#77406,R4		;     26  12704 "'D^U %CSL \ 25 $ 					;     30  77406 "^FRU %TL8 \1770 	MOV	#172200,R5		;     32  12705 "'E^U %CSM \ 25$ 					;     34 172200 "* 't %9D2 \364. 	MOV	R4,(R5)+		;     36  10425 "^U^Q %B?M \ 21. 	MOV	R4,(R5)+		;     40  10425 "^U^Q %B?M \ 21. 	MOV	R4,(R5)+		;     42  10425 "^U^Q %B?M \ 21. 	MOV	R4,(R5)+		;     44  10425 "^U^Q %B?M \ 214 	MOV	#177600,40(R5)		;     46  12765 "'u^U %CTU \ 25$ 					;     50 177600 "* *  %?5H \377$ 					;     52     40 "SP   %  2 \  0. 	MOV	R4,(R5)+		;     54  10425 "^U^Q %B?M \ 21. 	MOV	#G136,R1		;     56  12701 "'A^U %CSI \ 25$ 					;     60    136 " ^   % BN \  00 	ASH	#177772,R1		;     62  72127 " W t %RXW \164$ 					;     64 177772 "'z*  %?8J \3770 	BIC	#176000,R1		;     66  42701 "'A E %KFQ \105$ 					;     70 176000 "  '| %?L2 \374/ 	MOV	R1,40(R5)		;     72  10165 " u^P %BYM \ 20 $ 					;     74     40 "SP   %  2 \  02 	MOV	#77402,(R5)+		;     76  12725 "'U^U %CS? \ 25$ 					;    100  77402 "^BRU %TL4 \177, 	CLR	(R5)+			;    102   5025 "^ULF %AXU \ 12. 	MOV	R4,(R5)+		;    104  10425 "^U^Q %B?M \ 213 	MOV	#340,@#177776		;    106  12737 "'_^U %CS9 \ 25 $ 					;    110    340 "*    % EX \  0$ 					;    112 177776 "'~*  %?8N \3772 	MOV	#54040,-(SP)		;    114  12746 "'f^U %CTF \ 25$ 					;    116  54040 "SP X %ND  \1301 	MOV	#G136,-(SP)		;    120  12746 "'f^U %CTF \ 25 $ 					;    122    136 " ^   % BN \  02 	BIC	#177700,(SP)		;    124  42716 "'N E %KF0 \105$ 					;    126 177700 "'@*  %?62 \3772 	BIS	#120000,(SP)		;    130  52716 "'N U %M?F \125$ 					;    132 120000 "  *  %YX  \240' 	RTI				;    134      2 "^B   %  B \  0 1 G136:	MOV	R3,R1			;    136  10301 "'A^P %B$I \ 20 0 	BIC	#100001,R1		;    140  42701 "'A E %KFQ \105$ 					;    142 100001 "^A*  %TSI \200) 	CLR	R4			;    144   5004 "^DLF %AXD \ 12 , 	MOV	R1,R5			;    146  10105 " E^P %BXE \ 20- 	ASHC	#3,R4			;    150  73427 "^W w %SBG \167 $ 					;    152      3 "^C   %  C \  0) 	ASL	R4			;    154   6304 "'DFF %BA. \ 14 0 	ADD	#112240,R4		;    156  62704 "'D e %PKL \145$ 					;    160 112240 "* *  %W1H \2240 	ASH	#177775,R5		;    162  72527 " W u %R09 \165$ 					;    164 177775 "'}*  %?8M \3770 	BIC	#160077,R5		;    166  42705 "'E E %KFU \105$ 					;    170 160077 " ?*  %55G \340) 	NEG	R5			;    172   5405 "^EVT %A0U \ 13 . 	ADD	#G364,R5		;    174  62705 "'E e %PKM \145$ 					;    176    364 "'t   % FD \  00 	ASH	#177772,R5		;    200  72527 " W u %R09 \165$ 					;    202 177772 "'z*  %?8J \3770 	BIC	#176000,R5		;    204  42705 "'E E %KFU \105$ 					;    206 176000 "  '| %?L2 \374. 	MOV	R5,(R4)			;    210  10514 " L^Q %B0. \ 21- 	BIT	R4,#16			;    212  30427 "^W 1 %G4G \ 61 $ 					;    214     16 "SO   %  N \  0+ 	BNE	G224			;    216   1002 "^B^B % L4 \  2 - 	ADD	#20,R4			;    220  62704 "'D e %PKL \145 $ 					;    222     20 "^P   %  P \  03 G224:	SUB	#200,R5			;    224 162705 "'E'e %60U \345 $ 					;    226    200 "*    % CH \  0. 	MOV	R5,-(R4)		;    230  10544 " d^Q %B1L \ 21/ 	MOV	#114,(R1)		;    232  12711 "'I^U %CSQ \ 25 $ 					;    234    114 " L   % A6 \  0. 	MOV	#1,-(R1)		;    236  12741 "'a^U %CTA \ 25$ 					;    240      1 "^A   %  A \  0, 	MOV	R2,R5			;    242  10205 "* ^P %BY? \ 20, 	MOV	PC,R4			;    244  10704 "'D^Q %B3. \ 211 	CMP	(R4)+,(R4)+		;    246  22424 "^T % %E7L \ 45 0 G250:	JMP	(R1)			;    250    111 " I   % A3 \  0. 	SOB	R5,G250			;    252  77502 " BRU %TNR \177) 	ASL	R0			;    254   6300 "'@FF %BAX \ 14 ) 	ROR	R3			;    256   6003 "^CFF %A65 \ 14 ) 	ADC	R0			;    260   5500 " @VT %A2  \ 13 * 	BR	G136			;    262    725 "'U^A % K? \  1 	.BLKW	40			;    264 G364:	.BLKW	40			;    364  	.PSECT	LIGHTS,OVR,GBL LIGHTS=. 	.END  --   /Thord.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 13:38:05 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer2 Message-ID: <jAOdnbsbsOIW1bCiU-KYuQ@metrocast.net>  D "Bradford J. Hamilton" <hamilton@Encompasserve.org> wrote in message) news:bgjemu$3q7$1@grandcanyon.binc.net... @ > In article <2ducnaSsr-Guq7CiU-KYvw@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:   ...   H > !Are you seriously suggesting that writing a procedure with individual nameK > !elements, even a very simple one, is as easy as choosing elements from a H > !list (especially when they at least in some cases group conveniently) with aJ > !mouse?  Even for a *good* typist, let alone the average PC user (though PCs K > !have probably contributed more to typing skills than all the secretarial K > !schools in the universe)?  Or even that judicious line-editing using the  > !command recall buffer is? > !  > F > Writing a procedure in DCL is usually handled with one of the native editors K > (TPU, EDT, or TECO), each of which has "command keystroke utilities" (for  wantL > of a better phrase), which allow the user to cut, paste, "learn" keystrokeK > combinations, etc...which considerably ease the typing task at hand.  Put  a G > "template" line at the top of the command file, cut/paste/massage the  templateE > line to suit your needs, and "bob's your uncle" :-) (no, not *that*  bob!!!)   7 How nice - but it does not answer the question I asked.    >  > !  I judge theA > !> learning curve to be approximately equal for both platforms;  > ! H > !That's easy to say when the platform that you're familiar with is the more > !complex one.  > L > "It's all releative" - character-cell interfaces are "easy" for me to use,L > because I've used them for close to thirty years now.  I consider GUI's to beL > the more complex interface, since they are relatively newer.  My adult son has J > grown up with GUI's for most of his life - I can show him character-cellF > interfaces, but he won't use them because they are either historicalK > curiosities, or present a steeper learning curve.  The *only* reason that  most@ > people prefer GUI's over CC interfaces is because they are the
 more-familiar C > interface - familiar because of ubiquity, not intrinsic goodness.   G Oh, really?  Do you have a reference for that, or is it simply personal  opinion.  I Xerox did formal studies of such things, and Apple did even more of them. K Microsoft has also been active in this research area, and even DEC got into F the act back when it was trying to develop its own (incompatible) PCs.  L None of their results agree with your statement.  Nor, of course, do earlier? experiments with form-oriented (but not actual GUI) interfaces.   K Children can learn to use significant portions of a GUI before they're able C to read (let alone write).  Try that with a command-line interface.   H There are without doubt areas within *any* system where command-orientedD processing makes more sense.  But for the particular operation underL discussion here, suggesting that a command-line interface is equally easy toG use for an individual coming from a neutral background is hogwash - and L beyond the simple ease-of-use aspect, the fact that you choose existing fileF entries from a list rather than enter them manually both avoids typingF errors and provides visual feedback to confirm your choices before the operation executes.    - bill   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:51:19 +0000 (UTC)7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer/ Message-ID: <bgjlj7$5k0$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>   _ In article <jAOdnbsbsOIW1bCiU-KYuQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  ! E !"Bradford J. Hamilton" <hamilton@Encompasserve.org> wrote in message * !news:bgjemu$3q7$1@grandcanyon.binc.net...A !> In article <2ducnaSsr-Guq7CiU-KYvw@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" ! !<billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  !  !....  ! I !> !Are you seriously suggesting that writing a procedure with individual  !name L !> !elements, even a very simple one, is as easy as choosing elements from aI !> !list (especially when they at least in some cases group conveniently)  !with a K !> !mouse?  Even for a *good* typist, let alone the average PC user (though  !PCsL !> !have probably contributed more to typing skills than all the secretarialL !> !schools in the universe)?  Or even that judicious line-editing using the !> !command recall buffer is?  !> ! !>G !> Writing a procedure in DCL is usually handled with one of the native  !editorsL !> (TPU, EDT, or TECO), each of which has "command keystroke utilities" (for !want M !> of a better phrase), which allow the user to cut, paste, "learn" keystroke L !> combinations, etc...which considerably ease the typing task at hand.  Put !aH !> "template" line at the top of the command file, cut/paste/massage the	 !template F !> line to suit your needs, and "bob's your uncle" :-) (no, not *that* !bob!!!) ! 8 !How nice - but it does not answer the question I asked.  ( Well, yes it does...but I digress...	:-)   !snip!K !> ...  The *only* reason that most people prefer GUI's over CC interfaces  ( !> is because they are the more-familiarD !> interface - familiar because of ubiquity, not intrinsic goodness. ! H !Oh, really?  Do you have a reference for that, or is it simply personal	 !opinion.  !   # Mea culpa.  I was a bit frustrated.   K Personal opinion, of course - but I'll be willing to bet that the "studies" I referred to below were "cooked" (after a fashion), to achieve the desired O result.  Notice you did not claim that they were "scientific", merely "formal". O :-).  My partner took a computer course at a local college, where the claim was J made that CLI's were unreadable, which is why they fell out of favor - nowK *that's* hogwash (brought to you by IBM, which influenced the course text).   K OK, *for me* - I come from what I would consider a "literary" background; I N process things left-to-right, and "<cr>".  When I encounter GUI's (in the formK of todays "modern, now, a go-go" web pages), I *cringe*.  Instead of seeing 4 things on a page as if I were reading.  I encounter:   some things  over here							some "spinny"  								stuff over here   ' 		Clickety-clackety things over here!!!   % 					the most important stuff in tiny  					little type here.  E and so on, ad nauseum.  Even if you were to talk about GUI windows of M lists, it's possible to have multiples of them literally all over the screen, O and have to chase them down in some kind of "intuitive" fashion, which makes my 
 head spin!  J !Xerox did formal studies of such things, and Apple did even more of them.L !Microsoft has also been active in this research area, and even DEC got intoG !the act back when it was trying to develop its own (incompatible) PCs.  ! M !None of their results agree with your statement.  Nor, of course, do earlier @ !experiments with form-oriented (but not actual GUI) interfaces. ! L !Children can learn to use significant portions of a GUI before they're ableD !to read (let alone write).  Try that with a command-line interface.  M *My* children learned to read before they were given access to a computer.  I L worry for our future when kids (and parents) feel they don't have to read toO succeed!  Of course, I harbor no illusions that CLI's will ever make a comeback  with the younger generation...   ! I !There are without doubt areas within *any* system where command-oriented E !processing makes more sense.  But for the particular operation under M !discussion here, suggesting that a command-line interface is equally easy to H !use for an individual coming from a neutral background is hogwash - andM !beyond the simple ease-of-use aspect, the fact that you choose existing file G !entries from a list rather than enter them manually both avoids typing G !errors and provides visual feedback to confirm your choices before the  !operation executes.  L The same use of cut-n-paste within an editor, as well as the visual feedbackD displayed from the editor *is* equally easy - given a true "neutral"N background; however, most folks nowadays come from a GUI-oriented background -; a significant disadvantage to learning a non-GUI interface.   J I'm a little surprised you're defending the GUI - you strike me as one who, advocates for quality rather than style.	:-)  : In any case I don't wish to see a future scenario like so:  K "Damn, I pressed the "FIRE" button instead of the "ABORT" button - oh well, E time for lunch; there's no "RECALL" button on this screen, anyway..."    !  !- bill    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 19:01:55 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGJ Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer0 Message-ID: <00A23D58.AA518796@SendSpamHere.ORG>  _ In article <2ducnaSsr-Guq7CiU-KYvw@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: 
 >{...snip...} H >It is of course possible that VAXman actually encountered a GUI bug (orM >obscure 'feature') of some kind rather than simply struggled futilely trying L >to use click and shift-click to copy multiple discontiguous groups of filesL >at once.  But given the age and universality of this particular idiom, that! >wouldn't be my first assumption.   L I had never used a PeeCee until about '98/'99 time frame when I was informedL that it was the "workstation" which my on-site contract prescribed as a con-> dition for me to go on-site.  It was quite a retro-revelation.  K There wasn't one in my home until about '01 when I was tasked to maintain a L VMS application that worked in conjunction with a PeeCee GUI applicaiton.  IL was "given" the PeeCee and NT as a condition of the development contract.  IM merely turned on the PeeCee and clicked on the icon to fire up the PeeCee GUI 8 and followed a prescribed set of "click here" options.    L Other than that, I find no use for this thing and whenever I do need to do aK task on said machien, I find that it is as anal as anything I have ever had 5 to encounter (save for the schmuckhead of 4/94-8/95).   M ...and the files were of the form P#######.JPG.  A simple DCL COPY P*.JPG *.* K would have taken me about 10 seconds or less -- not 45+ minutes and umpteen  different rebott gyrations.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:23:07 -0700 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer( Message-ID: <3F2D611B.4050504@rdrop.com>   VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:   D > ...and the files were of the form P#######.JPG.  A simple DCL COPYD > P*.JPG *.* would have taken me about 10 seconds or less -- not 45+1 > minutes and umpteen different rebott gyrations.    Then why didn't you do that?  F Click START on the taskbar (bottom left corner), "Run..." type COMMAND and press enter.   CD drive:\somedir\someotherdir\  copy p*.jpg destdrive:\destdir\   # and Robert's your father's brother.   B As for making the PC recognize your camera, can't help you there. F Consider ditching Win98 for Win2000. My camera uses SmartMedia cards, E and I leave a SM card reader plugged in. If I want to xfer images, I  H just pull the card from the camera, plug it into the reader- works just  like a floppy drive.  G But really, bashing Windows when you haven't made much effort to learn  G it isn't all that different from someone else bashing VMS for the same   reason.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:11:31 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer2 Message-ID: <5VydnYkGULUY8bCiXTWJkw@metrocast.net>  D "Bradford J. Hamilton" <hamilton@Encompasserve.org> wrote in message) news:bgjlj7$5k0$1@grandcanyon.binc.net... @ > In article <jAOdnbsbsOIW1bCiU-KYuQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > ! G > !"Bradford J. Hamilton" <hamilton@Encompasserve.org> wrote in message , > !news:bgjemu$3q7$1@grandcanyon.binc.net...   ...   L > !> ...  The *only* reason that most people prefer GUI's over CC interfaces* > !> is because they are the more-familiarF > !> interface - familiar because of ubiquity, not intrinsic goodness. > ! J > !Oh, really?  Do you have a reference for that, or is it simply personal > !opinion.  > !  > % > Mea culpa.  I was a bit frustrated.  > C > Personal opinion, of course - but I'll be willing to bet that the 	 "studies" K > referred to below were "cooked" (after a fashion), to achieve the desired G > result.  Notice you did not claim that they were "scientific", merely 	 "formal".  > :-).  J They involved sitting groups of inexperienced users down in front of largeL numbers of different interface types (and variations within type) and seeingL both how long it took them to learn and/or accomplish specific tasks and howI comfortable they felt doing them.  Results were checked by retesting with J different groups (i.e., were not merely anecdotal on the basis of a singleI experience).  Probably not as rigidly controlled as double-blind testing, K but the goal was to ascertain what worked best rather than to validate some I foregone conclusion because at least in the case of Xerox, Apple, and DEC C there *were* no existing interfaces that anyone had any interest in F validating (with the possible exception of CLIs).  Microsoft continuedK experimentation well into the '90s and is likely still doing some for their K 'Longhorn' GUI, and while by then there clearly *was* an existing interface L they would have preferred to stick close to my impression is that they stillH attempted to make the tests reasonably neutral in order to find out whatF changes might be desirable (they have demonstrated willingness to makeI significant changes in their GUI multiple times, though usually with some 8 provision for at least optional backward compatibility).  J And, of course, there was also the earlier form-oriented experimentation -I which both IBM and DEC extended into text-screen menu-oriented interfaces  before true GUIs appeared.  J There is just no getting around it:  the visual cues and reduction in userF error modes that such interfaces provide *work*, at least for the vastC majority of common operations which admit to being handled that way L (point-and-click letter selection for composition obviously not being one ofI them - at least not for anyone with even minimal typing skills, though it F does work, after a fashion, in small-screen PDA environments that lack keyboards).   K   My partner took a computer course at a local college, where the claim was L > made that CLI's were unreadable, which is why they fell out of favor - nowF > *that's* hogwash (brought to you by IBM, which influenced the course text).  J Of course it's hogwash:  any person of average intelligence *can* learn toL use a CLI effectively (at least a competently-designed one).  But that stillL doesn't mean that for most operations it's the *easiest* solution, either to use or to learn.   > K > OK, *for me* - I come from what I would consider a "literary" background;  I K > process things left-to-right, and "<cr>".  When I encounter GUI's (in the  formF > of todays "modern, now, a go-go" web pages), I *cringe*.  Instead of seeing6 > things on a page as if I were reading.  I encounter: > 
 > some things  > over here some "spinny"  > stuff over here  > ' > Clickety-clackety things over here!!!  > " > the most important stuff in tiny > little type here.   I Poor interface design is by no means limited to GUIs.  However, GUIs *do* G allow incompetent designers to get more easily carried away with screen L distractions and to scatter related inputs to the four winds (whereas with aF CLI they'd be more likely just to request input in the obvious order -= though of course a *well*-designed GUI will do that as well).    > G > and so on, ad nauseum.  Even if you were to talk about GUI windows of G > lists, it's possible to have multiples of them literally all over the  screen, H > and have to chase them down in some kind of "intuitive" fashion, which makes my > head spin!  J That can also be true (though, again, not with a well-designed interface -J unless the user has explicitly populated the desktop with them, presumablyK for good reason) - but that was not the problem that VAXman was complaining J about and to which I responded:  it was the specific mechanism for copying' files between two well-defined windows.    > L > !Xerox did formal studies of such things, and Apple did even more of them.I > !Microsoft has also been active in this research area, and even DEC got  intoI > !the act back when it was trying to develop its own (incompatible) PCs.  > ! G > !None of their results agree with your statement.  Nor, of course, do  earlier B > !experiments with form-oriented (but not actual GUI) interfaces. > ! I > !Children can learn to use significant portions of a GUI before they're  ableF > !to read (let alone write).  Try that with a command-line interface. > L > *My* children learned to read before they were given access to a computer.  L Our daughter's first experience with a (text-oriented) PC was at age 2.  SheL was indeed precocious, but was only starting to learn how to read:  we foundL that the ability to spell out words by typing letters (kids that age usually> don't have the hand/eye coordination to write) encouraged her.  C A year or two later she met her first Mac.  Within a minute she was H navigating the screen and playing a game:  she could read much better by then, but it wasn't necessary.     I K > worry for our future when kids (and parents) feel they don't have to read  to
 > succeed!  H That has absolutely nothing to do with my statement:  it did not suggestF that reading was unimportant, only that a point-and-click interface is simpler for many activities.  G   Of course, I harbor no illusions that CLI's will ever make a comeback   > with the younger generation...  G Of course they won't, but that has (I hope) far less to do with lack of 3 reading ability than with more general ease of use.    >  > ! K > !There are without doubt areas within *any* system where command-oriented G > !processing makes more sense.  But for the particular operation under L > !discussion here, suggesting that a command-line interface is equally easy toJ > !use for an individual coming from a neutral background is hogwash - andJ > !beyond the simple ease-of-use aspect, the fact that you choose existing fileI > !entries from a list rather than enter them manually both avoids typing I > !errors and provides visual feedback to confirm your choices before the  > !operation executes. > E > The same use of cut-n-paste within an editor, as well as the visual  feedback- > displayed from the editor *is* equally easy   I If you're actually suggesting the use of an editor to cobble up a command > procedure as being comparable in ease of use to Explorer-styleG list-manipulation, I must disagree:  with a GUI, you don't have to cut, D paste, and modify - you just have to select from *existing* options.    - given a true "neutral" C > background; however, most folks nowadays come from a GUI-oriented  background -= > a significant disadvantage to learning a non-GUI interface.   E If you want to talk about editing, the more apt comparison is between H non-video TECO editing and a good screen editor.  TECO was wonderful:  IK never felt constrained by it, nor unproductive, and resisted even VTECO for  a while (let alone EDT).  K But, once again, in the end there's just no substitute for visible context: E good screen editors are *better* for the average person doing average K editing.  Of course, if what you want to do is perform an automated pruning I of a million-file directory listing and generate a command procedure from ( the result, TECO macros remain superior.   > L > I'm a little surprised you're defending the GUI - you strike me as one who. > advocates for quality rather than style. :-)  H GUIs aren't about style (at least not to me), they're about efficacy for common operations.   > < > In any case I don't wish to see a future scenario like so: > G > "Damn, I pressed the "FIRE" button instead of the "ABORT" button - oh  well, G > time for lunch; there's no "RECALL" button on this screen, anyway..."   K As I noted before, bad interface design is hardly the exclusive province of L GUIs.  In that particular situation, a well-designed interface is paramount,$ and what form it takes is secondary.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:52:04 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer' Message-ID: <3F2DCA54.BDE80260@fsi.net>   ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > [snip]O > ...and the files were of the form P#######.JPG.  A simple DCL COPY P*.JPG *.* M > would have taken me about 10 seconds or less -- not 45+ minutes and umpteen  > different rebott gyrations.   E Dunno if this helps or is even relevant, but CTRL+click in WhineBloze H Exploder (and at other times, as well) will allow you to select multipleC items. To Copy then, CTRL+drag will make copies of the files in the F desired location - but not reliably. Early perpetrations of W/9x wouldF create "link" (.LNK) files in the target location rather than actually+ copying the data. Sometimes still see that.   F It's a load of crap, but bucking the world-wide trend at this stage is) becoming increasingly counter-productive.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 01:15:34 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer2 Message-ID: <PtmdnfUu3debcbCiXTWJjg@metrocast.net>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3F2DCA54.BDE80260@fsi.net... # > VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: 
 > > [snip]F > > ...and the files were of the form P#######.JPG.  A simple DCL COPY
 P*.JPG *.*G > > would have taken me about 10 seconds or less -- not 45+ minutes and  umpteen  > > different rebott gyrations.  > G > Dunno if this helps or is even relevant, but CTRL+click in WhineBloze J > Exploder (and at other times, as well) will allow you to select multipleE > items. To Copy then, CTRL+drag will make copies of the files in the H > desired location - but not reliably. Early perpetrations of W/9x wouldH > create "link" (.LNK) files in the target location rather than actually- > copying the data. Sometimes still see that.   K I think that's an aspect of simple drag rather than CTRL-drag.  Simple drag L behavior is extension-dependent:  .exe files are linked (and other files areH moved if the destination is on the same device, else copied if it's on a different device).  H If you right-click-drag instead, you're presented with a small menu fromJ which you can select move, copy, link, or cancel (the last being useful ifG your hand twitched during the drag and you wound up targeting the wrongsJ destination - though if you notice before releasing the mouse button thereJ are other ways to abort).  IMHO that's safer than relying upon the defaultJ action mess, which I would *not* set forth as an example of good interfaceD design (even though it would have worked for what VAXman was doing):J whether it's good to have a bunch of subtly different ways for experiencedJ users to do all this stuff is perhaps debatable, but the *base* way shouldF be dead-simple and predictable even if it takes an extra step, such asJ choosing from the small action menu.  My impression is that this drag&dropB feature is one of many that 'just grew' (at least in some of theseF special-case behaviors) rather than got formally designed:  as I notedE earlier, while a GUI *can* be a better interface for such actions, it E requires decent design (and perhaps especially discipline - something]A Microsoft has never seemed to have in abundance) to achieve that.-   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 17:50:51 GMTe6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)6 Subject: Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver4 Message-ID: <%XbXa.83556$2j1.1135997@news.chello.at>  R In article <rRqdncBIy_vb2bCiU-KYuQ@comcast.com>, "m68k" <m68k@comcast.net> writes:? >THX. I will grab an 8-10gb SCSI drive from eBAY for the Alpha.o  N Better look for a BA350 (8bit) or a BA356 (16bit) box with more than one disk. And they could bel   	 2GB	RZ28x-Vy 	 4GB	RZ29x-Vy	 	 9GB	...g 	18GB	??  7 (where x is "", "M", ... for the different disk vendorse( and y is "A" for 8bit and "W" for 16bit)  G More modern AlphaServer than yours could (also) connect UltraSCSI disksbJ with 18GB, 36GB, 72GB and even 144GB disks (but maybe not the older SCSI).  I >I have been working with VMS for about two weeks now (mainly install and L >configuration). The biggest learning curve from Unix/Linux to VMS so far is( >file handling and the absence of pipes.  N There is ODS1 (mainly for PDP compatibility and therefore so to say obsolete),G ODS2 (the main disk format of VMS disks - only uppercase filenames withtL only numbers and characters and a handfull of special characters - "$", "_",M "-", ... - in filenames but also the new ODS5 (only on recent Alphas and much F more possible characters and therefor just like on U**X and Windows ). See HELP INIT/STRUCT  H Even system disks in ODS5 are possible now (since OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1) K Hardlinks are also a relatively new feature invented for U**X (and Windows)-
 compatiblity.o  H And Pipes are there since some VMS versions now, though you need the DCL3 verb PIPE to prefix the command line. See HELP PIPE   6 So, please, check again, what you are talking about...  K >                                         I also am a VI fan, but I want totH >learn EDT so I am not going to install the VMS port (at least not yet).  I Don't start with EDT (You are surely not a VMS bigot from the seventies). G EDT got replaced by EVE in the eighties. Start with $ E*VE :== EDIT/TPU H (Extensible Versatile Editor) - written in TPU (Text Processing Utility)C with the EDT compatible keyboard layout (Command> SET KEYPAD EDT or H $ DEFINE EVE$KEYPAD EDT). EVE supports not only 24x80 terminals like EDT7 does, but has also an X11 GUI ($ EDIT/INTERFACE=MOTIF).I  K btw. Other editors written in TPU are EDIT/ACL and LSEDIT (and maybe more)..  A >Thanks again for the help. I am sure I will have more questions.t   Yupu   -- n Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERh% Network and OpenVMS system specialiste E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 17:40:50 -0400) From: "David @ Island" <david-@-hpaq.net>j6 Subject: Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver/ Message-ID: <vir09kbnatmpc3@news.supernews.com>.  L we sell 9gb disks for alpha and vax - they work, have 12 months warranty and are comparable price-wisew     DT   -- Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Ste 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel; (00) 1 912 447 6622 Fax; (00) 1 912 201 0402 dbturner@hpaq.net. www.hpaq.net  - Please read our warranty terms and conditionsw before placing your order"! http://www.hpaq.net/warranty.htmlt! Support: http://www.hpaq.net:8004 $ Support  FTP: ftp://www.islandco.com (User name & Password required) * "m68k" <m68k@comcast.net> wrote in message* news:rRqdncBIy_vb2bCiU-KYuQ@comcast.com...@ > THX. I will grab an 8-10gb SCSI drive from eBAY for the Alpha. > J > I have been working with VMS for about two weeks now (mainly install andJ > configuration). The biggest learning curve from Unix/Linux to VMS so far isK > file handling and the absence of pipes. I also am a VI fan, but I want to I > learn EDT so I am not going to install the VMS port (at least not yet).w > B > Thanks again for the help. I am sure I will have more questions. >  >.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:43:15 -0500@1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 6 Subject: Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver' Message-ID: <3F2DC843.6BE6826E@fsi.net>B   "David @ Island" wrote:	 > N > we sell 9gb disks for alpha and vax - they work, have 12 months warranty and > are comparable price-wise   ( How ya fixed for RZ29[x]-VA? ...RZ40-VA?   -- \ David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/4   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 15:04:29 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer2 Message-ID: <kdqdnftKx-xWwbCiXTWJjQ@metrocast.net>  6 "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote in message# news:4rvnuikvdAi+@elias.decus.ch...1@ > In article <CYGcncusd4hm6bGiU-KYgg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >	0 > > <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message. > > news:00A23CAD.5A8D1CC8@SendSpamHere.ORG... > >5 > > ...? > >1 > >   My wife showed me G > >> how to copy a group of files.  What a fucking pain in the ass that2G > >> is.  She said you click on one and then use the shift key to click7 > >> on others you want. > >7H > > That would be your first problem:  learning from someone who doesn't knowL > > what they're talking about.  You use the Alt key to add individual files toL > > your selection list, not the shift key (which is used to add *all* filesH > > between the one you first selected and the one you click on with the shift? > > key depressed).7 > >	 >  > OK. My own Usenet rules here.	 > F > 1. Don't insult someone  who is technically competent in one OS, but >    struggles with another OS.f  H My rule:  don't insult the OS because of your own ignorance (seems I canE remember some derogatory comments about Linus when he dissed VMS in a#H somewhat similar manner - and I believe he deserved them as well).  When2 people follow that one, I'll happily follow yours.  L > 2. Don't insult their spouse. (And I will really fight anyone on that one)  9 The truth may be painful, but it should not be insulting.   . > 3. Don't post technically incorrect garbage.  H I of course endeavor not to, but once in a while an error creeps throughK (and if this is representative of the worst of them I'll be more than happy3I with my performance when I eventually leave this world).  The fact that I1L inadvertently substituted the Alt key for the Ctrl key in the post in no wayL invalidates its significant points:  that the problem was in the user ratherJ than in the OS, that copying files via the Windows GUI hardly qualifies asK anything like a 'pain in the ass' and is in fact far easier for the average2F user than VMS would be, and that significant additional mechanisms are% available for more specialized needs.    >#K > FWIW, I will gladly incur international phone charges to get Brian sorted3I > out, if I can, simply because he contributes his skills to comp.os.vms." >|B > Now I'll shut up, but I would ask you to think before you write,    I *always* think before I write.    becauseG > you are coming across as a first class idiot. I used to think you are > > better than that, but in one short posting I have my doubts.  F People are always free to make their own judgments in that area, and IB really have better things to do than worry about what they may be.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 20:39:39 GMT3# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>14 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammerG Message-ID: <fqeXa.40001$4UE.9235@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,  / "GreyCloud" <cumulus@mist.com> wrote in message4" news:3F2C2383.12F42F8A@mist.com... > leslie wrote:	 > > , > > My sigmonster thanks you for that entry. > > B > > Back before the Great Tech Wreck, people asked me why I didn't want to	E > > work on Windows, and many of them had worked on VMS, so they knew\ the C > > difference between the quality of VMS and the crapware shoveled4 out from# > > One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA.  > >S@ > > My usual reply was that my blood pressure would get too high	 having toA, > > deal with the crapware 100% of the time. > >@ >r7 > I think that was the cause of my High blood pressure.n< > Everything worked well and was easily predictable with VMS > programming.  Not so with M$..  + VMS - Let's you sleep nights and stay calm.n   sorry Maxwell House coffee...c   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 20:50:38 GMT"# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>w4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammerH Message-ID: <yAeXa.40040$4UE.25493@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  8 "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote in message5 news:iJbXa.2723$jg.1740414@news1.news.adelphia.net...n > VAXman- wrote: >eB > > Does anybody reading this thread have one of the floppy camera memeory cardF > > readers?  If you do, what does VMS see when you insert the floopy? This isi% > > my other alternative if it works.s >nB > I have never heard of that.  Is this something that looks like a floppy8 > disk, but actually has a memory card inserted into it? >tC > If it is truly emulating a 1.44 Mb floppy, then it probably wouldlF > produce a FAT file structure, so one of the transfer programs listed in > the OpenVMS FAQ might work.t >s@ > But I really do not know.  As long as it produces 512 bit high densitylA > formatted sectors, a program should be able to read it, and thee source; > for reading the various FAT formats seems to be in LINUX.t    3 http://www.synchrotech.com/products/card-rw_21.htmlhD One example of many such devices. Google "memory card" "floppy disk" simultaneously.q   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:40:40 -0500t1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer' Message-ID: <3F2DC7A8.5636C6D7@fsi.net>'   John Smith wrote:e > 1 > "GreyCloud" <cumulus@mist.com> wrote in messageo$ > news:3F2C2383.12F42F8A@mist.com... > > leslie wrote:y > > >s. > > > My sigmonster thanks you for that entry. > > >ID > > > Back before the Great Tech Wreck, people asked me why I didn't	 > want toeG > > > work on Windows, and many of them had worked on VMS, so they knewT > theyE > > > difference between the quality of VMS and the crapware shoveleds
 > out from% > > > One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA.i > > >uB > > > My usual reply was that my blood pressure would get too high > having tof. > > > deal with the crapware 100% of the time. > > >i > >m9 > > I think that was the cause of my High blood pressure. > > > Everything worked well and was easily predictable with VMS! > > programming.  Not so with M$.t > - > VMS - Let's you sleep nights and stay calm.  >  > sorry Maxwell House coffee...u  H I recently saw an ad referring to M$ Exchange as a warm, comfortable ...H something, can't quite recall what - just remember the reference to warmG fuzzies. I wanted to find the idiot author and find out what he was on,t and where I could get some.e   -- h David J. Dachterab dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:21:00 -0500% From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> K Subject: Re: PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processor ; Message-ID: <SKgXa.71960$6a3.1856196@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>a  : David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3F2D220A.5BF9E476@fsi.net...y > Bob Ceculski wrote:  > >t@ > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# news:<3F2BF8CE.70BCC48A@fsi.net>...) > > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > > > >dC > > > > In article <3F2B1F67.C32EDC2F@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"t <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:- > > > > > Ken Farmer wrote:.
 > > > > >>I > > > > >> PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processorm Systems Now  > > > > >> ShippingoD > > > > >> http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=03/08/01/5909099	 > > > > >1L > > > > > I'm looking forward to our GS1280s being upped from 12 to 16 CPUs, thenI > > > > > to 32 at some later time. These things are REALLY quick as is -e oughttau> > > > > > really be something in the newer configurations, eh? > > > > K > > > > Of course that depends on whether CPU is your issue.  If disk speedeJ > > > > is your gating factor other things might need to be adjusted, such > > > > as the source code :-) > > >lI > > > It's all Oracle, really. We're doing fine I/O-wise, else my partnertH > > > would be complaining - he's rather a stickler about throughput. We don'tt7 > > > really see slowdowns except under two conditions:b > > >s > > > o All 12 CPUs are maxedeL > > > o Tons of shadow copies (that were merges until we converted them) dueL > > > to a node crash (they've settled down rather nicely now - just chasing a K > > > few annoying nits at this point, Multinet kernel SMP issues being onem ofK > > > them). We like to get these cleared sooner than possible; so, we takee$ > > > the performance hit "briefly". > >,E > > you will clear them when you switch to TCPware ... it is based onbC > > the vms kernel and performs much better than either multinet ord > > ucx ...r >e8 > ...and that will do exactly what for my shadow copies? >) > Get serious... >h  J If throughput is your major bottleneck, Upgrade your fibre to 2GB, and get an EVA.aH Have you looked at the EVA/HSV/Virtual Array and SNAP?  Do away with theH shadow copies for backups.  It's hitting you at the OS level to do them.J Put the effort onto your storage controller instead.  SNAP it, and send itH to tape.  That is what we are implementing for 40+ 2-node VMS production	 clusters.e  K RMAN backup ==> EVA presented backup disk.  ==> SNAPPED==> LUN presented to  the backup cluster.  ==>tape.t  3 Hell, We are even backing up our AIX junk that way.n  
 Mike Naime   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:37:33 -0500u1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>wK Subject: Re: PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processor ' Message-ID: <3F2DC6ED.831A79EF@fsi.net>l   Mike Naime wrote:y > < > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3F2D220A.5BF9E476@fsi.net...d > > Bob Ceculski wrote:" > > >gB > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message% > news:<3F2BF8CE.70BCC48A@fsi.net>...  > > > > Larry Kilgallen wrote:	 > > > > >fE > > > > > In article <3F2B1F67.C32EDC2F@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"s! > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:t > > > > > > Ken Farmer wrote:  > > > > > >>K > > > > > >> PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processori
 > Systems Nowt > > > > > >> ShippingeF > > > > > >> http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=03/08/01/5909099 > > > > > > N > > > > > > I'm looking forward to our GS1280s being upped from 12 to 16 CPUs, > thenK > > > > > > to 32 at some later time. These things are REALLY quick as is -n	 > oughttat@ > > > > > > really be something in the newer configurations, eh?	 > > > > >fM > > > > > Of course that depends on whether CPU is your issue.  If disk speedmL > > > > > is your gating factor other things might need to be adjusted, such  > > > > > as the source code :-) > > > >fK > > > > It's all Oracle, really. We're doing fine I/O-wise, else my partnernJ > > > > would be complaining - he's rather a stickler about throughput. We > don't.9 > > > > really see slowdowns except under two conditions:y > > > >v > > > > o All 12 CPUs are maxed,N > > > > o Tons of shadow copies (that were merges until we converted them) dueN > > > > to a node crash (they've settled down rather nicely now - just chasing > aoM > > > > few annoying nits at this point, Multinet kernel SMP issues being one  > ofM > > > > them). We like to get these cleared sooner than possible; so, we takee& > > > > the performance hit "briefly". > > >oG > > > you will clear them when you switch to TCPware ... it is based ontE > > > the vms kernel and performs much better than either multinet or 
 > > > ucx ...v > >t: > > ...and that will do exactly what for my shadow copies? > >c > > Get serious... > >n > L > If throughput is your major bottleneck, Upgrade your fibre to 2GB, and get	 > an EVA.i  C EVA is still too immature for our environment (healthcare, Cerner).k  J > Have you looked at the EVA/HSV/Virtual Array and SNAP?  Do away with the > shadow copies for backups. r  B Don't do 'em for backups, we do 'em for data integrity/redundancy.  . > It's hitting you at the OS level to do them.  D Largely why I prefer controller-level mirrors, but even that has its limits.iL > Put the effort onto your storage controller instead.  SNAP it, and send it > to tape.    " ...and that is done in batch, how?  @ > That is what we are implementing for 40+ 2-node VMS production > clusters.- > M > RMAN backup ==> EVA presented backup disk.  ==> SNAPPED==> LUN presented toc > the backup cluster.  ==>tape.t  H Not my decision. Lotta folks upstream to get on board with it first (FDA not being the least of them).s  E Also, need to see the automation  - and the vendor supporting it* -ins? action before I can recommend it for our lights-out, unattendedy
 operation.  D *: Technically, home-grown code is not permitted. Of course, we haveE lots of it just to keep the place running. The day OTS software meetsdA 100% of anyone's needs is the day we'll all hear Gabriel's blast.e   --   David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:27:22 GMTd From: Rob.Buxton@wcc.govt.nz/ Subject: Re: [Change topic -> OT] Pence/Penniesh$ Message-ID: <3f2da762.13267140@news>  F On 2 Aug 03 08:15:54 +0200, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:  e >In article <bgeofc$nrs14$1@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>, "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com> writes:  >> a, >> <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote in message< >> news:OFF7977F4E.8B56E3E3-ON85256D75.005C34A6@metso.com... >>> : >>> > From:  Rob.Buxton@wcc.govt.nz on 07/31/2003 08:44 PM >>> >r. >>> > Please respond to Rob.Buxton@wcc.govt.nz >>> >d" >>> > To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com	 >>> > cc:  >>> >e8 >>> > Subject:    Re: [Change topic -> OT] Pence/Pennies >>> >  >>> > <snip> >>> >r3 >>> > Not to mention tanners, bobs and  half-crowns  >>> >o >>> > <snip> >>> >u >>>s< >>> Bobs and half-crowns I know, but what is/was  "tanners"? >>>r# >>  A 'tanner' was a sixpenny coin.e7 >> And yes, in this context it is correct to use penny. M >> A price may have been 'and thruppence (threepence)' or 'and sixpence', but-I >> the coins themselves were a "thrup'ny bit" or a 'sixpenny bit (or moree >> usually, a tanner)'.c >>   >jB >Sorry, I must interject here. "thruppence" or "thrup'ny bit" wereC >definitely southern phrases. Oop north, t'were allus pronounced asO >threppence (short "e"). >l; Aye, I seem to recall t'were threppence now you mention it.G Even in't midlands.   2 And as someone else mentioned, a florin was 2 bob.  : I can't see bob a job week getting much traction nowadays!  J >Someone also forgot to mention florins (five shillings) and half florins.G >A "half dollar" was also a common expression in my childhood, meaning tH >2 shillings sixpence, presumably referring to an exchange rate from the >distant past.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.427 ************************