1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 04 Aug 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 428       Contents: 128 Bit Encryption Re: 128 Bit Encryption Re: 30 days from hell  Re: 30 days from hell  another newbie question  Re: another newbie question  Re: another newbie question  Re: another newbie question  Re: another newbie question  Re: another newbie question 8 Re: another newbie question (Who created this process ?)8 Re: another newbie question (Who created this process ?) Re: DEC 3000 M500 CXT error ? G Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates) G Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates) G Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates) A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer - Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + RE: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer  newbie questions4 Re: newbie questions (Firmware and Quorum Disk/Node)* Re: OT: Rolling Stones permanently stained Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates B Re: PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processor Re: Problems with NFS  Re: Quorom Disk/Node Overhead  Re: RF31 hardware problem 2 Re: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?) software maintenance contract ! Re: software maintenance contract % Specifying disk device names on Alpha ) Re: Specifying disk device names on Alpha ) Re: Specifying disk device names on Alpha ) Re: Specifying disk device names on Alpha ) Re: Specifying disk device names on Alpha ) Re: Specifying disk device names on Alpha   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:35:16 +01000 From: "Gary Sherwood" <gary@protsys.demon.co.uk> Subject: 128 Bit Encryption ; Message-ID: <3f2e36e5$0$45998$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net>   K Does anyone know if  there any standard encryption routines (preferably 128 L bit) in VMS? or can anyone recommend a 3rd party product?  I need to encrypt/ part of the data that I am loading into a file.   L I had a quick look through the RTL & system services and can't find anything that could do the job.   Regards, Gary   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 06:22:12 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: 128 Bit Encryption 3 Message-ID: <28rDGNzKecxm@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <3f2e36e5$0$45998$65c69314@mercury.nildram.net>, "Gary Sherwood" <gary@protsys.demon.co.uk> writes:M > Does anyone know if  there any standard encryption routines (preferably 128  > bit) in VMS?  ) Check "CDSA" on the latest Alpha release.   D But you should be careful about what you want if your description isC "128 bit".  There is a whole lot more to good cryptography than key  length.    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 06:30:13 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: 30 days from hell3 Message-ID: <H4mYs8uHgtPz@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <pxSWa.7021$mv6.1232076@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:  N > Recently the Windows-2000-Server system has experienced serious problems andP > has been "intermittently up" for the past 5 days. I heard that MS has directedM > the installation of a few patches but the basic problem has been reduced to L > the software people blaming hardware while the hardware people are blamingP > software. It is my opinion that Windows still isn't as good as OpenVMS when itN > comes to dealing with, or logging, hardware problems. Also, I can't rememberM > when we had a hardware trouble on a VAX or Alpha (and I've got a reasonably  > good memory) > % > So I'm vindicated for another year.   
 My wife says:   G I'm not sure that it gained me anything, but it might provide Neil some L satisfaction:  When the CPUs that run the "strategic" operating system fail,L stand up every 10 minutes and say loudly, "The VAX is still up."  (or Alpha)   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 03 14:31:46 +0200 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)  Subject: Re: 30 days from hell) Message-ID: <CMDK1g+HGKsL@elias.decus.ch>   c In article <H4mYs8uHgtPz@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: h > In article <pxSWa.7021$mv6.1232076@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: > O >> Recently the Windows-2000-Server system has experienced serious problems and Q >> has been "intermittently up" for the past 5 days. I heard that MS has directed N >> the installation of a few patches but the basic problem has been reduced toM >> the software people blaming hardware while the hardware people are blaming Q >> software. It is my opinion that Windows still isn't as good as OpenVMS when it O >> comes to dealing with, or logging, hardware problems. Also, I can't remember N >> when we had a hardware trouble on a VAX or Alpha (and I've got a reasonably >> good memory)  >>  & >> So I'm vindicated for another year. >  > My wife says:  > I > I'm not sure that it gained me anything, but it might provide Neil some N > satisfaction:  When the CPUs that run the "strategic" operating system fail,N > stand up every 10 minutes and say loudly, "The VAX is still up."  (or Alpha)  E In a previous job that was tried, to some extremely filthy looks from  the mainframe crowd.    I I did miss the fun one day by taking some time off in lieu. Vehicles were J rolling off the (VMS driven) production line at their usual rate of 350 orG so per shift, but the mainframe was down. Unfortunately that meant that F the final paperwork which should accompany each vehicle into a holdingK pound wasn't getting printed. This paperwork was mandatory before a vehicle G was let into the pound, so they recruited all and any office staff with D a suitable driving licence into action to move the vehicles to other parking areas.   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:29:19 +0100 (BST)= From: =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?= <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com>   Subject: another newbie question@ Message-ID: <20030804132919.47786.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com>  
 Gentlemen,5 I have another question. I have a process that I know 4 is consuming a lot of memory. But how can I find out5 the parent that started this process. (I came to know  that this was indeed the case).   4 In UNIX speak, how do I find the PPID given the PID?   Thanks   ===== 	 Sincerely  Amit S  H ________________________________________________________________________E Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo! ( Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:59:41 +0100( From: "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com>$ Subject: Re: another newbie question9 Message-ID: <bglou9$pdfk7$1@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>   5 "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> wrote in message & news:bglnmf$15as@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk... > 9 > "amit sawhney" <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com> wrote in message < > news:20030804132919.47786.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com... > 9 > > I have another question. I have a process that I know 8 > > is consuming a lot of memory. But how can I find out) > > the parent that started this process.  > : > Not easily. One can turn on accounting, and/or auditing;= > neither would help after the fact. Why would this be useful  > information? > 8 > > In UNIX speak, how do I find the PPID given the PID? >  > VMS doesn't work like that.  >   + Assuming the process is currently active..:    $ analyse/system SDA> show process/id='pid'8 the tenth line (including blank lines) will give you the    Master internal PID     xxxxxxxx  K This is the PID of the creator process. If it is the same value as 'pid' it G is at the top of the process tree, and was probably created either by a . normal login or by a run/detached/... command.  	 SDA> exit      -- John Travell" Independent VMS crashdump analyst. john- at - jomatech - dot - com  +44-(0)23-92552229 http://www.jomatech.com/         --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 01/08/2003    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:39:26 +0100* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>$ Subject: Re: another newbie question, Message-ID: <bglnmf$15as@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  7 "amit sawhney" <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com> wrote in message : news:20030804132919.47786.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com...  7 > I have another question. I have a process that I know 6 > is consuming a lot of memory. But how can I find out' > the parent that started this process.   8 Not easily. One can turn on accounting, and/or auditing;; neither would help after the fact. Why would this be useful  information?  6 > In UNIX speak, how do I find the PPID given the PID?   VMS doesn't work like that.    ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:06:32 +0100 (BST)= From: =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?= <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com> $ Subject: Re: another newbie question@ Message-ID: <20030804150632.11299.qmail@web41101.mail.yahoo.com>   John, " It doesn't seem to work that way.  Here is the output:  SDA> sh process/id=290A7272 4 Process index: 0272   Name: AMITSHNY   Extended PID: 290A7272= ------------------------------------------------------------- 3 Process status:          02040001  RES,PHDRES,INTER 2         status2:         00000001  QUANTUM_RESCHED  6 PCB address              8327AE40    JIB address              83353140 2 PHD address              9EB0A000    Swapfile disk address    00000000 6 KTB vector address       8327B12C    HWPCB address            9EB0A080 0 Callback vector address  00000000    Termination mailbox          0000 % Master internal PID      00A70272     " ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Thanks   ===== 	 Sincerely  Amit S  H ________________________________________________________________________E Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo! ( Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 09:51:25 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: another newbie question3 Message-ID: <aaoVqaUb9nqt@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <20030804132919.47786.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com>, =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?= <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com> writes: > Gentlemen,7 > I have another question. I have a process that I know 6 > is consuming a lot of memory. But how can I find out7 > the parent that started this process. (I came to know ! > that this was indeed the case).  > 6 > In UNIX speak, how do I find the PPID given the PID?  @    In VMS a process does not have to have a parent process.  You    can try the following:   C    1) use "show system" to see if the process is a subprocess (S in        right hand column)  F    2) if it's not a subprocess, it may be too late to find who startedB       it; try accounting and auditing logs to see if the start was$       logged (typical systems don't)      3) if it is a subprocess:  =       write sys$output f$getjpi("pid-goes-here","MASTER_PID")   E       that will tell you the top PID of the job tree; not necessarily F       the process which started the subprocess, but it often is and ifA       it's not you may still have the information you really need    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:34:23 +0100( From: "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com>$ Subject: Re: another newbie question9 Message-ID: <bgm696$pse9c$1@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>   7 "amit sawhney" <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com> wrote in message : news:20030804150632.11299.qmail@web41101.mail.yahoo.com... > John, # > It doesn't seem to work that way.  > Here is the output:  > SDA> sh process/id=290A7272 6 > Process index: 0272   Name: AMITSHNY   Extended PID:
 > 290A7272? > ------------------------------------------------------------- 5 > Process status:          02040001  RES,PHDRES,INTER 4 >         status2:         00000001  QUANTUM_RESCHED > 2 > PCB address              8327AE40    JIB address >        83353140 4 > PHD address              9EB0A000    Swapfile disk > address    00000000 4 > KTB vector address       8327B12C    HWPCB address >        9EB0A080 2 > Callback vector address  00000000    Termination > mailbox          0000 # > Master internal PID      00A70272 $ > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >    Ooops.? I forgot to mention that the top byte may not show up the same. 3 This process is at the top of its own process tree. J The only way to find out what is creating this process is to kill this oneK (reboot if needed, but you should not normally need to), turn on accounting D and/or auditing as others have suggested, and reproduce the problem.     -- John Travell" Independent VMS crashdump analyst. john- at - jomatech - dot - com  +44-(0)23-92552229 http://www.jomatech.com/       --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 01/08/2003    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 09:14:53 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) A Subject: Re: another newbie question (Who created this process ?) 3 Message-ID: <vxxFaKt2wMTb@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <20030804132919.47786.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com>, =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?= <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com> writes: > Gentlemen,7 > I have another question. I have a process that I know 6 > is consuming a lot of memory. But how can I find out7 > the parent that started this process. (I came to know ! > that this was indeed the case).   8 If it is a subprocess a suitably privileged user can use  3 	WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$GETJPI("27E02054","MASTER_PID")   H to find the PID for the process at the top of the job containing process	 27E02054.   F If the errant process is a detached process, your best bet for workingD across reasonably recent versions of VMS would be to have previouslyD enabled security auditing for the $CREPRC system service.  There areB enough little quirks in the SET AUDIT command that you should readD the documentation for it in the System Security Manual, not just the output of the HELP command.    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 10:30:40 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) A Subject: Re: another newbie question (Who created this process ?) 3 Message-ID: <ODoFXWnCee76@eisner.encompasserve.org>   2 Please stop sending me email regarding this topic.& Discussion should be in the newsgroup.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:51:45 -0400 ' From: Stuart Fuller <stufuller@usa.net> & Subject: Re: DEC 3000 M500 CXT error ?0 Message-ID: <i9skgb.sg4.ln@dadsys2.fuller.local>   opcom wrote:  J > Well here's a good one for all the hardware wizards.. And I know someone@ > in this most wise and august group has got to know the answer. > G > This questions' been floating around out here for a long time.. never K > found an answer to this -only unanswered questions going back to 1998! So = > it should be worthy of a challenge, finally put it to rest.  >  > -- > I > Firing up Ye Olde DEC3000-500 (Flamingo/Pelican), the self test is fine  > except this error: >  > CXT     ?? 000 0064  >    Broken video graphics card.     I Make sure that the monitor cable is connected to the card.  What kind of   monitor do you have?     Reseat the card.  2 Reseat the system module to I/O module connection.  H Try a different monitor.  One of the tests checks for the presence of a @ monitor (actually, termination on one or more of the RGB wires). --             Stu    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:55:23 GMT 4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>P Subject: Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates)8 Message-ID: <1u3siv82tcep9o3gvfrqccnhj115im4n7t@4ax.com>  @ On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 05:39:33 GMT in alt.sys.pdp11, ian@hammo.com (paramucho) wrote:  0 >On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:05:25 +0200, Thord Nilson ><thordn@stacken.kth.se> wrote:  >  >> >>	.PSECT	NULJOB,OVR,GBL6 >>	BIT	#4000,@#177776		;      0  32737 "'_ 5 %HX1 \ 65& >>					;      2   4000 "  BS %AKH \ 10& >>					;      4 177776 "'~*  %?8N \377, >>	BNE	G22			;      6   1005 "^E^B % L7 \  22 >>G10:	MOV	R2,R1			;     10  10201 "* ^P %BYY \ 20. >>G12:	WAIT				;     12      1 "^A   %  A \  0/ >>	SOB	R1,G12			;     14  77102 " B ~ %THB \176 + >>	ROL	R0			;     16   6100 " @FF %A8P \ 14 + >>	BR	G10			;     20    773 "'{^A % L$ \  1  > C >That's an interesting bit of code. If that's the idle loop then it 1 >looks like RSTS was completely interrupt driven.  > C >One of the problems running operating systems in emulators is that E >they usually never let go of the CPU -- the code above would do just : >that (if the WAIT instruction was implemented correctly).  ? Were there many operating systems that didn't idle in interrupt A wait? I know VM/HPO 5 on a multiprocessor idled by scanning other @ processors' work queues, but on a uni it just idle waited for an interrupt.    9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada  --  F Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 08:07:14 GMT  From: ian@hammo.com (paramucho) P Subject: Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates)2 Message-ID: <3f331333.35625833@news.supernews.com>  . On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:55:23 GMT, Brian Inglis( <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:  A >On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 05:39:33 GMT in alt.sys.pdp11, ian@hammo.com  >(paramucho) wrote:  > 1 >>On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:05:25 +0200, Thord Nilson   >><thordn@stacken.kth.se> wrote: >> >>>  >>>	.PSECT	NULJOB,OVR,GBL 7 >>>	BIT	#4000,@#177776		;      0  32737 "'_ 5 %HX1 \ 65 ' >>>					;      2   4000 "  BS %AKH \ 10 ' >>>					;      4 177776 "'~*  %?8N \377 - >>>	BNE	G22			;      6   1005 "^E^B % L7 \  2 3 >>>G10:	MOV	R2,R1			;     10  10201 "* ^P %BYY \ 20 / >>>G12:	WAIT				;     12      1 "^A   %  A \  0 0 >>>	SOB	R1,G12			;     14  77102 " B ~ %THB \176, >>>	ROL	R0			;     16   6100 " @FF %A8P \ 14, >>>	BR	G10			;     20    773 "'{^A % L$ \  1 >>D >>That's an interesting bit of code. If that's the idle loop then it2 >>looks like RSTS was completely interrupt driven. >>D >>One of the problems running operating systems in emulators is thatF >>they usually never let go of the CPU -- the code above would do just; >>that (if the WAIT instruction was implemented correctly).  > @ >Were there many operating systems that didn't idle in interruptB >wait? I know VM/HPO 5 on a multiprocessor idled by scanning otherA >processors' work queues, but on a uni it just idle waited for an  >interrupt.   ; An early version of single job RT-11 may have used the WAIT F instruction (it still uses RESET to clean-up) but that would be aroundA about it for RT. The three systems I wrote used to hang in a loop C somewhere -- in fact, I must confess that I'm still not sure of the C detailed semantics of the instruction, i.e. how to avoid missing an 
 interrupt.     -- Ian " Impressive If Haughty - Q Magazine   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 08:13:29 GMT  From: ian@hammo.com (paramucho) P Subject: Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates)2 Message-ID: <3f341461.35928175@news.supernews.com>  F On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 08:18:55 GMT, don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes) wrote:  + >In article <ikhlfb.4u3.ln@news.online.de>, D >Christian Corti  <Christian.Corti@studserv.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:- >>Don Stokes <don@news.daedalus.co.nz> wrote: C >>> Yep.  And on machines with supervisor mode (until recently when K >>> supervisor mode got used for real work), they did something clever with I >>> the addressing so that the same pattern, in reverse, appeared on the  L >>> address lines.  It looked like the snakes were chasing each other aroundK >>> and around the two rows of lights.  It looked bloody good in a darkened  >>> room full of 11/70s... >> >>With what OS?  > 
 >RSTS/E.    A The first system I wrote was in Germany where we had a host 11/40 D running RT-11 and about ten satellite 11/10s running my RT-11 clone.B Along with a LIGHTS routine I also implemented a SOUND idle loop.   A The only sound that a PDP-11/10 could make was the terminal bell, B which came out as a beep. I found that by suitably timing RESETs IF could cut the beep off at various points and thus modulate the signal.3 The result was more like grunts, burps, twits, etc.   D Watching and listening to ten of these machines in the dark, with orB without additional substances, was very much a trip to the jungle.     -- Ian " Impressive If Haughty - Q Magazine   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 09:02:30 -0000 4 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer6 Message-ID: <20030804090230.13312.qmail@gacracker.org>  G On Sun, 03 Aug 2003, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: " >VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:	 >> [snip] P >> ...and the files were of the form P#######.JPG.  A simple DCL COPY P*.JPG *.*N >> would have taken me about 10 seconds or less -- not 45+ minutes and umpteen >> different rebott gyrations. > F >Dunno if this helps or is even relevant, but CTRL+click in WhineBlozeI >Exploder (and at other times, as well) will allow you to select multiple D >items. To Copy then, CTRL+drag will make copies of the files in theG >desired location - but not reliably. Early perpetrations of W/9x would G >create "link" (.LNK) files in the target location rather than actually , >copying the data. Sometimes still see that.  J I suspect one of VAXman's problems is that Explorer is displaying files asM honkin big icons, thus giving the odd/downright annoying issue with selecting  p*.jpg through y*.jpg.  1 On the Explorer toolbar click View, then Details.   L Now you get files as a sensible list and can sort by type etc by clicking on
 the headings.   N Anyway, since the task being carried out qualifies as personal use, I'd snag a  copy of WSftp for the Win98 box.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 03 13:01:20 +0200 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer) Message-ID: <0cnFsUw8rB4n@elias.decus.ch>   i In article <bgjlj7$5k0$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>, hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes: M > Personal opinion, of course - but I'll be willing to bet that the "studies" K > referred to below were "cooked" (after a fashion), to achieve the desired Q > result.  Notice you did not claim that they were "scientific", merely "formal". Q > :-).  My partner took a computer course at a local college, where the claim was L > made that CLI's were unreadable, which is why they fell out of favor - nowM > *that's* hogwash (brought to you by IBM, which influenced the course text).  >   G I have always disliked the use of tab to move forward through fields on I a screen. Having started with VT52s for data entry applications it always E seemed logical to use the left hand to hold paperwork and the numeric B keypad in conjunction with <ENTER> to move forward through fields.  F <TAB> doesn't seem the least bit ergonomical to me, from that point ofD view. It would seem that I am not alone, as starting with Access 97,. <ENTER> also takes you forward through fields.   M > OK, *for me* - I come from what I would consider a "literary" background; I P > process things left-to-right, and "<cr>".  When I encounter GUI's (in the formM > of todays "modern, now, a go-go" web pages), I *cringe*.  Instead of seeing 6 > things on a page as if I were reading.  I encounter: > 
 > some things  > over here							some "spinny"  > 								stuff over here  > ) > 		Clickety-clackety things over here!!!  > ' > 					the most important stuff in tiny  > 					little type here. > G > and so on, ad nauseum.  Even if you were to talk about GUI windows of O > lists, it's possible to have multiples of them literally all over the screen, Q > and have to chase them down in some kind of "intuitive" fashion, which makes my  > head spin! >   G I find Lynx an efficient browser, which is useful when connecting via a J modem. But I dread the sites with a list of links down the left hand side,I as with Lynx you can end up ploughing through the lot to get to where you  want.   F At work we have just switched from Netscape 4.77 to 7.n. One niggle isK that the new version doesn't fill in urls in the same way, instead offering G a drop down list of partial matches from its history list, which can be J selected by the mouse. With shortish urls I find it faaster to type in theF whole url rather than take my hand off the keyboard and use the mouse.  L > !Xerox did formal studies of such things, and Apple did even more of them.N > !Microsoft has also been active in this research area, and even DEC got intoI > !the act back when it was trying to develop its own (incompatible) PCs.  > ! O > !None of their results agree with your statement.  Nor, of course, do earlier B > !experiments with form-oriented (but not actual GUI) interfaces. > !   E And in some cases the outcome of that research was of doubtful merit. I At one place I worked, someone had implemented an idea which they claimed J had come from IBM's research dept. This was that a null input into a fieldG (i.e. just <ENTER>) should take the user back a field, and if the first A field on a screen, then exit the program. In this could be a real  pain in the neck.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:09:52 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer2 Message-ID: <b4ydnViZRo-TorOiXTWJiw@metrocast.net>  6 "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote in message# news:0cnFsUw8rB4n@elias.decus.ch...    ...   H > > !Xerox did formal studies of such things, and Apple did even more of them. K > > !Microsoft has also been active in this research area, and even DEC got  intoK > > !the act back when it was trying to develop its own (incompatible) PCs.  > > ! I > > !None of their results agree with your statement.  Nor, of course, do  earlier D > > !experiments with form-oriented (but not actual GUI) interfaces. > > !  > G > And in some cases the outcome of that research was of doubtful merit.   C Don't confuse the basic research that proved the merit of GUI-style H interfaces with the implementations that actually got produced.  It's atK least as possible to create bad GUIs as it is to create bad CLIs (one might L mention Unix's in the latter regard if one wanted to take the discussion off on a tangent).  K > At one place I worked, someone had implemented an idea which they claimed L > had come from IBM's research dept. This was that a null input into a fieldI > (i.e. just <ENTER>) should take the user back a field, and if the first C > field on a screen, then exit the program. In this could be a real  > pain in the neck.   J Just because the idea (supposedly) originated in IBM Research doesn't mean3 that it was 'researched' in the manner I described.    - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 03 13:55:43 +0200 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer) Message-ID: <noruLjks3S8w@elias.decus.ch>   _ In article <b4ydnViZRo-TorOiXTWJiw@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > 8 > "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote in message% > news:0cnFsUw8rB4n@elias.decus.ch...  >  > ...  > I >> > !Xerox did formal studies of such things, and Apple did even more of  > them. L >> > !Microsoft has also been active in this research area, and even DEC got > intoL >> > !the act back when it was trying to develop its own (incompatible) PCs. >> > !J >> > !None of their results agree with your statement.  Nor, of course, do	 > earlier E >> > !experiments with form-oriented (but not actual GUI) interfaces.  >> > ! >>H >> And in some cases the outcome of that research was of doubtful merit. > E > Don't confuse the basic research that proved the merit of GUI-style J > interfaces with the implementations that actually got produced.  It's atC > least as possible to create bad GUIs as it is to create bad CLIs    J And there are some pretty awful websites out there which prove that point.   > (one mightN > mention Unix's in the latter regard if one wanted to take the discussion off > on a tangent).  F The Unix CLI can be probably blamed for a large part of the apparently. widespread dislike / fear of the command line.   > L >> At one place I worked, someone had implemented an idea which they claimedM >> had come from IBM's research dept. This was that a null input into a field J >> (i.e. just <ENTER>) should take the user back a field, and if the firstD >> field on a screen, then exit the program. In this could be a real >> pain in the neck. > L > Just because the idea (supposedly) originated in IBM Research doesn't mean5 > that it was 'researched' in the manner I described.  >    Which is my suspicion.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 09:37:27 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer3 Message-ID: <V$cQn1SWhFwA@eisner.encompasserve.org>   m In article <20030803174215.31055.qmail@gacracker.org>, Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes: O > I think it goes back to the comment about some features being hidden in plain  > sight. > # > SCOTTY:      Computer....Computer  > 2 >              (Technician hands Scotty the mouse) > ; > SCOTTY:      (Using mouse as microphone)  Hello, computer  > % > TECHNICIAN:  Just use the keyboard!  > ) > SCOTTY:      The keyboard?  How quaint!   E    When had OS 9 on my "Beige G3" I set it to answer to "computer".   G    I'm waiting for Apple to make the OS X speakable items work as well. A    In the meantime I still drive my PC support folks up a wall by     letting my Mac speak to me.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 09:39:11 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer3 Message-ID: <Na2zjf3Ks50q@eisner.encompasserve.org>   P In article <3F2D611B.4050504@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes:! > VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > E >> ...and the files were of the form P#######.JPG.  A simple DCL COPY E >> P*.JPG *.* would have taken me about 10 seconds or less -- not 45+ 2 >> minutes and umpteen different rebott gyrations. >  > Then why didn't you do that? > H > Click START on the taskbar (bottom left corner), "Run..." type COMMAND > and press enter.  C    Yeah, right, now that's such an obviuos was to get a DOS window.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:09:51 +0200) From: Roland Barmettler <itsme@127.0.0.1> J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer5 Message-ID: <20030804170951.41d1d46b.itsme@127.0.0.1>   / Bob Koehler wrote on 4 Aug 2003 09:37:27 -0500:  > F >    When had OS 9 on my "Beige G3" I set it to answer to "computer".  >     C >    I'm waiting for Apple to make the OS X speakable items work as F >    well. In the meantime I still drive my PC support folks up a wall# >    by letting my Mac speak to me.   = As far as I know, it's working fine at least since OS X 10.2.pE Well, at least it worked for me OK...  but I'm not using it a lot ;-)e   Greetings, Rolande   -- ** Invalid bugcheck code **q   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 09:30:48 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o6 Subject: Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver3 Message-ID: <zNzd46ebGVwu@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  R In article <rRqdncBIy_vb2bCiU-KYuQ@comcast.com>, "m68k" <m68k@comcast.net> writes:@ > THX. I will grab an 8-10gb SCSI drive from eBAY for the Alpha. > J > I have been working with VMS for about two weeks now (mainly install andM > configuration). The biggest learning curve from Unix/Linux to VMS so far is ) > file handling and the absence of pipes.p  4    You will find pipes documented under "help pipe".   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:51:08 -0700t" From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer' Message-ID: <3F2E025C.935C0AB@mist.com>n   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > John Smith wrote:  > >s3 > > "GreyCloud" <cumulus@mist.com> wrote in messaget& > > news:3F2C2383.12F42F8A@mist.com... > > > leslie wrote:  > > > > 0 > > > > My sigmonster thanks you for that entry. > > > >sF > > > > Back before the Great Tech Wreck, people asked me why I didn't > > want to I > > > > work on Windows, and many of them had worked on VMS, so they knewe > > theIG > > > > difference between the quality of VMS and the crapware shoveledm > > out from' > > > > One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA.  > > > >kD > > > > My usual reply was that my blood pressure would get too high
 > > having too0 > > > > deal with the crapware 100% of the time. > > > >t > > >n; > > > I think that was the cause of my High blood pressure. @ > > > Everything worked well and was easily predictable with VMS# > > > programming.  Not so with M$.t > >a/ > > VMS - Let's you sleep nights and stay calm.l > > ! > > sorry Maxwell House coffee...2 > J > I recently saw an ad referring to M$ Exchange as a warm, comfortable ...J > something, can't quite recall what - just remember the reference to warmI > fuzzies. I wanted to find the idiot author and find out what he was on,  > and where I could get some.c >   < You don't suppose that these new ads about ADDL has anything9 to do with M$?  Then Paxil or Xanax is probably what he's  on.f   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 03 12:23:02 +0200o) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)-4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer) Message-ID: <+wWO7R2yMLjY@elias.decus.ch>o  k In article <iJbXa.2723$jg.1740414@news1.news.adelphia.net>, "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> writes:l > VAXman- wrote: > N >> Does anybody reading this thread have one of the floppy camera memeory cardN >> readers?  If you do, what does VMS see when you insert the floopy?  This is$ >> my other alternative if it works. >   E I used to have one. This was to read the cards used by an Olympus. ItgE came with a patch or modified driver (I forget which) so that Windows-E could see past 1.44 MB. It certainly worked on Windows with the 16 MBL card I had.n  E I think I did have a brief try with VMS, but didn't persue it when itc didn't work first time around.  J > I have never heard of that.  Is this something that looks like a floppy 8 > disk, but actually has a memory card inserted into it? >   : That's right, and they have a watch battery to drive them.  D > If it is truly emulating a 1.44 Mb floppy, then it probably would J > produce a FAT file structure, so one of the transfer programs listed in  > the OpenVMS FAQ might work.  >   O Almost, except they see the full capacity of the memory card, not just 1.44 MB. H You can't read them on standard Win98 or NT without the modified driver.  C It was also a handy device for transferring files > 1.44 MB betweenW PCs.  I > But I really do not know.  As long as it produces 512 bit high density eI > formatted sectors, a program should be able to read it, and the source b; > for reading the various FAT formats seems to be in LINUX.  >   I I'm pretty sure the structure will be documented somewhere. The last timerJ I looked at Linux, there was a photo utility which supported an impressive& list of cameras and related equipment.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 03 12:28:18 +0200 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)r4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer) Message-ID: <+hcIxEp8ceeq@elias.decus.ch>'  P In article <3F2D47C7.8040902@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes: > Paul Sture wrote:  >> This _should_ be easy.a >> n >> If you have:r >>   >> a.txt b.txt c.txt d.txt >> hE >> Click on a.txt and hold shift down whilst clicking on c.txt and it1# >> will select a.txt, b.txt, c.txt.  >>  $ >> Only want a.txt, c.txt and d.txt? >> -C >> Click on a.txt, hold down CTRL then click on c.txt then click onh	 >> d.txt.e >  > Assume what he had was:e >  > a.jpg   f.jpg   k.jpg@ > b.jpg   g.jpg   l.jpgt > c.jpg   h.jpg   m.jpg. > d.jpg   i.jpg   n.mpgl > e.jpg   j.jpg   o.jpgl > G > And he wanted to select b.jpg to n.jpg inclusive. If he clicks b.jpg,,G > then SHIFT-click n.jpg, he'll get b,c,d,g,h,i,l,m, and n- leaving out-I > e,f,j, and k. That's the way Windows "works" when dealing with multipler > columns of files.  >   E Aha, the light dawns. About the first job I do to a Windows system ishG to switch Explorer to List view, so I get 1 column, plus the file sizesi
 and dates.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 10:58:02 GMTo/ From: Thomas Dickey <dickey@saltmine.radix.net>n4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer* Message-ID: <bgle7q$6ea$1@news1.radix.net>  * Paul Sture <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote:R > In article <3F2D47C7.8040902@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes:  G > Aha, the light dawns. About the first job I do to a Windows system istI > to switch Explorer to List view, so I get 1 column, plus the file sizess > and dates.   ...and attributes, of course   --  = Thomas E. Dickey <dickey@radix.net> <dickey@herndon4.his.com>n http://dickey.his.coms ftp://dickey.his.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:03:28 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer2 Message-ID: <fACdnQ2lX8gQoLOiXTWJiQ@metrocast.net>  2 "Dean Woodward" <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote in message" news:3F2D47C7.8040902@rdrop.com... > Paul Sture wrote:o > > This _should_ be easy. > >p > > If you have: > >w > > a.txt b.txt c.txt d.txt  > > F > > Click on a.txt and hold shift down whilst clicking on c.txt and it$ > > will select a.txt, b.txt, c.txt. > >e% > > Only want a.txt, c.txt and d.txt?  > >-D > > Click on a.txt, hold down CTRL then click on c.txt then click on
 > > d.txt. >- > Assume what he had was:t >k > a.jpg   f.jpg   k.jpgc > b.jpg   g.jpg   l.jpgn > c.jpg   h.jpg   m.jpg2 > d.jpg   i.jpg   n.mpgm > e.jpg   j.jpg   o.jpge > G > And he wanted to select b.jpg to n.jpg inclusive. If he clicks b.jpg,tG > then SHIFT-click n.jpg, he'll get b,c,d,g,h,i,l,m, and n- leaving out I > e,f,j, and k. That's the way Windows "works" when dealing with multiple  > columns of files.   L That thought never crossed my mind:  as Paul noted, changing the list to theI detailed view has become an automatic act for me.  What the hell use is aoE list of fat icons, anyway?  They take up more space, yet provide less. information     (But how did that .mpg slip in?)   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:47 GMTc" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer0 Message-ID: <00A23DDF.75DCBF36@SendSpamHere.ORG>  U In article <4rvnuikvdAi+@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:.` >In article <CYGcncusd4hm6bGiU-KYgg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >> o/ >> <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message - >> news:00A23CAD.5A8D1CC8@SendSpamHere.ORG...d >>   >> ... >> t >>   My wife showed meF >>> how to copy a group of files.  What a fucking pain in the ass thatF >>> is.  She said you click on one and then use the shift key to click >>> on others you want.a >> wL >> That would be your first problem:  learning from someone who doesn't knowN >> what they're talking about.  You use the Alt key to add individual files toK >> your selection list, not the shift key (which is used to add *all* filestM >> between the one you first selected and the one you click on with the shifts >> key depressed). >> i >  >OK. My own Usenet rules here. >aE >1. Don't insult someone  who is technically competent in one OS, but/ >   struggles with another OS.K >2. Don't insult their spouse. (And I will really fight anyone on that one)o  E My wife is far more "technically competent" with Weendoze because hergE employer dropped VMS many years ago believing that Billy's warez weretE more productive (perhaps that is the reason why pharmaceutical priceseE have skyrocketted in the last decade).  She IS my only resource here gD to ask -- save for the kids.  At the time I was attempting this cir-D cuitous operation neither wife nor kids were available for consulta- tion.>    J >FWIW, I will gladly incur international phone charges to get Brian sortedH >out, if I can, simply because he contributes his skills to comp.os.vms.  F Billy warez are not worth your investing money into making a long dis-" tance telephone carrier wealthier.    I >Now I'll shut up, but I would ask you to think before you write, becausetG >you are coming across as a first class idiot. I used to think you are  = >better than that, but in one short posting I have my doubts.o   The anti-carl has arisen.- --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM-            =5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" h   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 03 13:35:35 +02001) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer) Message-ID: <D6yGFKGxpfhy@elias.decus.ch>e  _ In article <fACdnQ2lX8gQoLOiXTWJiQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > 4 > "Dean Woodward" <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote in message$ > news:3F2D47C7.8040902@rdrop.com... >> Paul Sture wrote: >> > This _should_ be easy.J >> > >> > If you have:8 >> > >> > a.txt b.txt c.txt d.txt >> >G >> > Click on a.txt and hold shift down whilst clicking on c.txt and it2% >> > will select a.txt, b.txt, c.txt.  >> >& >> > Only want a.txt, c.txt and d.txt? >> >E >> > Click on a.txt, hold down CTRL then click on c.txt then click on^ >> > d.txt.^ >> >> Assume what he had was: >> >> a.jpg   f.jpg   k.jpg >> b.jpg   g.jpg   l.jpg >> c.jpg   h.jpg   m.jpg >> d.jpg   i.jpg   n.mpg >> e.jpg   j.jpg   o.jpg >>H >> And he wanted to select b.jpg to n.jpg inclusive. If he clicks b.jpg,H >> then SHIFT-click n.jpg, he'll get b,c,d,g,h,i,l,m, and n- leaving outJ >> e,f,j, and k. That's the way Windows "works" when dealing with multiple >> columns of files. > N > That thought never crossed my mind:  as Paul noted, changing the list to theK > detailed view has become an automatic act for me.  What the hell use is a_G > list of fat icons, anyway?  They take up more space, yet provide lessr
 > informationo >   G And you've just jogged my memory there. Win98 comes out of the box withtK the file types hidden, and IIRC files with the hidden and system attributes + too. I routinely change those settings too.   " > (But how did that .mpg slip in?) >    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 03 13:37:50 +0200 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer) Message-ID: <6rwPgcVrVpH8@elias.decus.ch>   U In article <00A23DDF.75DCBF36@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:wW > In article <4rvnuikvdAi+@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:ya >>In article <CYGcncusd4hm6bGiU-KYgg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  >>> 0 >>> <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message. >>> news:00A23CAD.5A8D1CC8@SendSpamHere.ORG... >>>  >>> ...s >>>  >>>   My wife showed meeG >>>> how to copy a group of files.  What a fucking pain in the ass that3G >>>> is.  She said you click on one and then use the shift key to clickr >>>> on others you want. >>> M >>> That would be your first problem:  learning from someone who doesn't knowoO >>> what they're talking about.  You use the Alt key to add individual files to.L >>> your selection list, not the shift key (which is used to add *all* filesN >>> between the one you first selected and the one you click on with the shift >>> key depressed).- >>>  >> >>OK. My own Usenet rules here.- >>F >>1. Don't insult someone  who is technically competent in one OS, but >>   struggles with another OS. L >>2. Don't insult their spouse. (And I will really fight anyone on that one) > G > My wife is far more "technically competent" with Weendoze because hersG > employer dropped VMS many years ago believing that Billy's warez were G > more productive (perhaps that is the reason why pharmaceutical priceslG > have skyrocketted in the last decade).  She IS my only resource here ^F > to ask -- save for the kids.  At the time I was attempting this cir-F > cuitous operation neither wife nor kids were available for consulta- > tion.  >  > K >>FWIW, I will gladly incur international phone charges to get Brian sorted I >>out, if I can, simply because he contributes his skills to comp.os.vms.r > H > Billy warez are not worth your investing money into making a long dis-$ > tance telephone carrier wealthier. >    Thanks for saving me that :-)    > J >>Now I'll shut up, but I would ask you to think before you write, becauseH >>you are coming across as a first class idiot. I used to think you are > >>better than that, but in one short posting I have my doubts. >  > The anti-carl has arisen.-  	 Ooh dear.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:32:42 GMTn" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer0 Message-ID: <00A23E04.9BD1ADE1@SendSpamHere.ORG>  U In article <+hcIxEp8ceeq@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:cQ >In article <3F2D47C7.8040902@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes:s >> Paul Sture wrote: >>> This _should_ be easy. >>>  >>> If you have: >>>  >>> a.txt b.txt c.txt d.txts >>> F >>> Click on a.txt and hold shift down whilst clicking on c.txt and it$ >>> will select a.txt, b.txt, c.txt. >>> % >>> Only want a.txt, c.txt and d.txt?E >>> D >>> Click on a.txt, hold down CTRL then click on c.txt then click on
 >>> d.txt. >> 4 >> Assume what he had was: >> d >> a.jpg   f.jpg   k.jpg >> b.jpg   g.jpg   l.jpg >> c.jpg   h.jpg   m.jpg >> d.jpg   i.jpg   n.mpg >> e.jpg   j.jpg   o.jpg >> tH >> And he wanted to select b.jpg to n.jpg inclusive. If he clicks b.jpg,H >> then SHIFT-click n.jpg, he'll get b,c,d,g,h,i,l,m, and n- leaving outJ >> e,f,j, and k. That's the way Windows "works" when dealing with multiple >> columns of files. >>   >eF >Aha, the light dawns. About the first job I do to a Windows system isH >to switch Explorer to List view, so I get 1 column, plus the file sizes >and dates.O    H How do you configure that?  I run IE and enter: file://C: and all I everH get is icons.  The "preferrences" in the _F_ile menu is always gray (I'mA told this means if cannot be selected and, of course, I cannot). a --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi            d5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 03 17:56:23 +0200i) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)w4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer) Message-ID: <hP8fTfeo9psq@elias.decus.ch>n  U In article <00A23E04.9BD1ADE1@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:rW > In article <+hcIxEp8ceeq@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:0R >>In article <3F2D47C7.8040902@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes: >>> Paul Sture wrote:n >>>> This _should_ be easy.a >>>>   >>>> If you have:b >>>> o >>>> a.txt b.txt c.txt d.txt >>>>  G >>>> Click on a.txt and hold shift down whilst clicking on c.txt and it % >>>> will select a.txt, b.txt, c.txt.n >>>> o& >>>> Only want a.txt, c.txt and d.txt? >>>>  E >>>> Click on a.txt, hold down CTRL then click on c.txt then click on- >>>> d.txt.  >>>  >>> Assume what he had was:- >>>  >>> a.jpg   f.jpg   k.jpg5 >>> b.jpg   g.jpg   l.jpgs >>> c.jpg   h.jpg   m.jpg. >>> d.jpg   i.jpg   n.mpgT >>> e.jpg   j.jpg   o.jpg( >>> I >>> And he wanted to select b.jpg to n.jpg inclusive. If he clicks b.jpg,@I >>> then SHIFT-click n.jpg, he'll get b,c,d,g,h,i,l,m, and n- leaving outmK >>> e,f,j, and k. That's the way Windows "works" when dealing with multipleh >>> columns of files.o >>>  >>G >>Aha, the light dawns. About the first job I do to a Windows system is5I >>to switch Explorer to List view, so I get 1 column, plus the file sizes" >>and dates. >  > J > How do you configure that?  I run IE and enter: file://C: and all I everJ > get is icons.  The "preferrences" in the _F_ile menu is always gray (I'mC > told this means if cannot be selected and, of course, I cannot). F    B Now we are getting somewhere. Explorer isn't the same thing as IE.  : I'm not sitting in front of a PC right now, but here goes:  F Right click on the My Computer icon (top LHS of the desktop), and fromF the drop down menu, pick Explorer (it's also in the Start menu). ThereE are some icons along the top which alter the view. IIRC hovering youri3 mouse over them should tell you what each one does.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:00:46 +0800 , From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer- Message-ID: <87fzkhh3hd.fsf@prep.synonet.com>B  + p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:r   >> The anti-carl has arisen.   > Ooh dear.a   "The anti-Carl hits" :)a   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.m@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:03:33 +0800a, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer- Message-ID: <87brv5h3cq.fsf@prep.synonet.com>O  6 Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:  F > Makes you wonder, is Windows the crack cocaine of operating systems?  1 No, it is the $50 bag of dirt and lactose of OSs.^  . (Very small bag for those who never inhale :))   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.	@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:14:23 -0400# From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov>w4 Subject: RE: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer: Message-ID: <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDCEFJDMAA.dallen@nist.gov>   > -----Original Message-----B > From: VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG]( > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:33 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt6 > Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer >s >tW > In article <+hcIxEp8ceeq@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:tS > >In article <3F2D47C7.8040902@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes:u > >> Paul Sture wrote: > >>> This _should_ be easy. > >>>s > >>> If you have: > >>>o > >>> a.txt b.txt c.txt d.txtp > >>> H > >>> Click on a.txt and hold shift down whilst clicking on c.txt and it& > >>> will select a.txt, b.txt, c.txt. > >>>r' > >>> Only want a.txt, c.txt and d.txt?R > >>> F > >>> Click on a.txt, hold down CTRL then click on c.txt then click on > >>> d.txt. > >> > >> Assume what he had was: > >> > >> a.jpg   f.jpg   k.jpg > >> b.jpg   g.jpg   l.jpg > >> c.jpg   h.jpg   m.jpg > >> d.jpg   i.jpg   n.mpg > >> e.jpg   j.jpg   o.jpg > >>J > >> And he wanted to select b.jpg to n.jpg inclusive. If he clicks b.jpg,J > >> then SHIFT-click n.jpg, he'll get b,c,d,g,h,i,l,m, and n- leaving outL > >> e,f,j, and k. That's the way Windows "works" when dealing with multiple > >> columns of files. > >> > >tH > >Aha, the light dawns. About the first job I do to a Windows system isJ > >to switch Explorer to List view, so I get 1 column, plus the file sizes
 > >and dates.  >l >eJ > How do you configure that?  I run IE and enter: file://C: and all I everJ > get is icons.  The "preferrences" in the _F_ile menu is always gray (I'mB > told this means if cannot be selected and, of course, I cannot). > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  >y6 >   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" >  >c   	Don't use IE to open the C: (or any other drive). Use the Run option from the Start menu and "run" C: or double click the C: drive ) in My Computer. You can "run" many thingst in Windows - not just exe's.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:47:05 +0100( From: "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer9 Message-ID: <bgm696$pse9c$2@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>3  , <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A23E04.9BD1ADE1@SendSpamHere.ORG...H > In article <+hcIxEp8ceeq@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:K > >In article <3F2D47C7.8040902@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>e writes:  > >> Paul Sture wrote: > >>> This _should_ be easy. > >>>h > >>> If you have: > >>># > >>> a.txt b.txt c.txt d.txt* > >>>*H > >>> Click on a.txt and hold shift down whilst clicking on c.txt and it& > >>> will select a.txt, b.txt, c.txt. > >>>n' > >>> Only want a.txt, c.txt and d.txt?  > >>>iF > >>> Click on a.txt, hold down CTRL then click on c.txt then click on > >>> d.txt. > >> > >> Assume what he had was: > >> > >> a.jpg   f.jpg   k.jpg > >> b.jpg   g.jpg   l.jpg > >> c.jpg   h.jpg   m.jpg > >> d.jpg   i.jpg   n.mpg > >> e.jpg   j.jpg   o.jpg > >>J > >> And he wanted to select b.jpg to n.jpg inclusive. If he clicks b.jpg,J > >> then SHIFT-click n.jpg, he'll get b,c,d,g,h,i,l,m, and n- leaving outL > >> e,f,j, and k. That's the way Windows "works" when dealing with multiple > >> columns of files. > >> > > H > >Aha, the light dawns. About the first job I do to a Windows system isJ > >to switch Explorer to List view, so I get 1 column, plus the file sizes
 > >and dates.  >  >kJ > How do you configure that?  I run IE and enter: file://C: and all I everJ > get is icons.  The "preferrences" in the _F_ile menu is always gray (I'mB > told this means if cannot be selected and, of course, I cannot). > --  ! Simple, but not wholly intuitive.uG Even if it has been renamed, you _must_ somethere on your screen have a< (cringe) 'My Computer' icon.K Find it, then (assuming you are not using a left hand mouse) RIGHT click ono	 the icon.c* In the menu that appears select 'explore'.+ You are now in the 'real' windows explorer. 0 in the 'view' menu click on the 'details' entry.  H If you have part of the directory window wasted by a graphic image I can help you to get rid of it.K There are also ways to customise most of the features present in the windowe to make them the defaults.  H Perhaps a bit of heresy, but I quite like the 'windows explorer', I wishH DECwindows 'fileview' was as smart. However, I do wish the borg would go< back to the beginning and engineer the whole thing properly.+ (I purposely didn't say 're-engineer'...:-)a     -- John Travell" Independent VMS crashdump analyst. john- at - jomatech - dot - como +44-(0)23-92552229 http://www.jomatech.com/         ---T& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 01/08/2003a   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:31:27 +0100 (BST)= From: =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?= <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com>r Subject: newbie questions @ Message-ID: <20030804083127.37580.qmail@web41112.mail.yahoo.com>   Hi all,t3 I have some VMS knowledge on standalone m/c s. Beenn# going through the clustering docs.  * Q: What is "firmware" and what is a quorum server/disk?   Thanks   =====y	 Sincerelyh Amit S  H ________________________________________________________________________E Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo!I( Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 05:12:55 -0500h- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)o= Subject: Re: newbie questions (Firmware and Quorum Disk/Node)t3 Message-ID: <m+icN03dr+TW@eisner.encompasserve.org>e   In article <20030804083127.37580.qmail@web41112.mail.yahoo.com>, =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?= <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com> writes:	 > Hi all,o5 > I have some VMS knowledge on standalone m/c s. Beenp% > going through the clustering docs. n, > Q: What is "firmware" and what is a quorum > server/disk?  H Firmware is microcode that must be loaded into certain hardware devices.D It comes up for discussion most frequently when the currently loadedK firmware has defects and a newer version must be loaded.  In this newsgroupsI the term is sometimes misused to describe the Console and PALcode used onfI Alpha processors to simulate a hardware console and certain instructions.EI In fact, the Console and PALcode are Alpha machine code rather than beingi
 microcode.  J A quorum node or quorum disk is a tie-breaking mechanism that can be addedH to small clusters with even numbers of nodes (in particular, 2 nodes) toJ distinguish node failures from a partitioning of the cluster.  Quorum nodeF or quorum disk usage in a two node cluster ensure the cluster can keep  running when one node goes down.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 12:20:38 -0500E4 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)3 Subject: Re: OT: Rolling Stones permanently stained 3 Message-ID: <Mi+wwuRObsO1@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  w In article <bgebep$cvm$4@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:u4 > In article <3F25CF33.8CB1B0E9@istop.com>, JF Mezei& > <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:  > N >> This week, the Rolling Stones are holding a benefit concert to help rebuild. >> the devastated Toronto economy due to Sars. >> aO >> They are also plastering the media with ads, and the one song that they keepaC >> on using is the Microsoft "Start me up". (Remember Windows 95 ?)t > H > There was a long thread a while back about this and the fact that REM J > refused to let MicroSoft use one of their songs.  There was speculation D > on which it was.  Citing forced migrations, I thought it might be I > "Losing my Religion" but someone pointed out that "It's the End of the sH > World as we Know it and I Feel Fine" would be more appropriate to the # > mentality of a Microsoft adopter.h  < I was thinking that "Everybody Hurts" would also be fitting.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:28:15 GMTt! From: inwap@inwap.com (Joe Smith)o$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates9 Message-ID: <jWnXa.783$603.40746@iad-read.news.verio.net>e  0 In article <qhadaxdrkz.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,5 Eric Smith  <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:f1 >Glenn Everhart <Everhart-nospam@gce.com> writes:cG >> People who wanted to use BASIC in those days often found ways to get I >> to a pdp10 terminal. That's one reason Bill Gates transliterated pdp10pD >> BASIC (listings were readily available from DEC back then) as the >> story goes. >IJ >Seems unlikely, as the details of the commands and functions of MicrosoftD >BASIC were substantially different than BASIC-10.  Is the source toL >BASIC-10 online somewhere?  I've got source to a version of Microsoft BASIC >and could compare it.  D http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/basic17f/  BASICL.MAC and BASICH.MAC 	-Joeo   -- o8 See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:02:44 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>K Subject: Re: PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processorb8 Message-ID: <v9tsivofa5hstgmd8bu952eh047dh5tkce@4ax.com>  7 On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:37:33 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"( <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:     >oD >EVA is still too immature for our environment (healthcare, Cerner). >[...]I >Not my decision. Lotta folks upstream to get on board with it first (FDA! >not being the least of them).  K I do believe that we have Cerner customers running OpenVMS, and using EVA +e# Business Copy EVA (i.e., snapshot).t  J And, yes, it can be done from a batch job (either with Business Copy - aka* EVM - client tools, or with SSSU scripts).   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 06:56:01 -0700t, From: Georg.Nowak@sms-demag.de (Georg Nowak) Subject: Re: Problems with NFS< Message-ID: <e7d8e959.0308040556.34deb2a@posting.google.com>  	 "> Georg,  > K > I recall an issue with V5.1 in that area in the initial release.  Be suredL > that you get the last ECO to V5.1 installed.  Better yet, if you could getJ > your mitts on V5.3+ you can also pick up some rather serious performance > enhancements as well.l >  > -John    Hello John,.  C thanks for your help. I have installed the latest ECO for 5.1 (155)f? and it looks like I'm one step further - but still not happy :)   @ Now I get following error message when I try to mount (all other# setups are like described before) :   < TCPIP> mount dnfs1: /path="/dkc600/SMSdemag" /host=localhost< %TCPIP$DNFSMOUNT-E-MOUNTFAIL, error mounting _DNFS1:[000000]< -SYSTEM-F-INVLOGIN, login information invalid at remote node  " But it works if I mount like this:- TCPIP> add proxy gnow /uid=100/gid=100/host=*eE TCPIP> mount dnfs1: /path="/dkc600/SMSdemag" /host=localhost /uid=100  /gid=100  F I thought setting the proxy ucx$nobody (-2,-2) would handle the login,A so that I do not have to set the parameters /uid/gid on the mount F command ? Is there anything else I'm doing wrong ? I have read all theF documentation on the net about setting up NFS on VMS, but I can't findE my error. I mean, there are just 3 things to do: add map, add export,  add proxy - done.    Thanks ! Georga   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 09:01:15 -0500S; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)I& Subject: Re: Quorom Disk/Node Overhead3 Message-ID: <zgDJF6LaJ7uh@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  h In article <f936a854.0307310611.7f86a438@posting.google.com>, robert_kersey@bat.com (Rob Kersey) writes:O > Does a quorom disk produce much more overhead than an individual quorum node?r  E    Sometimes the cluster needs to actually access te disk.  Head seek 7    times can be measurably longer than other SCS times.m  P > What are the disadvantages of using a quorom disk as opposed to a quorom node?  G    A quorum disk won't keep the cluster running properly unless it is a E    dual pathed disk physically accessable to both nodes of a two node L    cluster.  Without that it has basically the same affect as simply giving     one node two votes.  E    A third node will have the same limitation if it's a satellite ando'    it's system disk is not dual pathed.   B    Three voting non-satellite nodes may be cheaper than a two nodeF    cluster with a dual pathed disk.  It depends on what models you canH    buy.  A three node cluster adds compute power that a two node cluster#    with a quorum disk doesn't have.   C    If you don't have at least one dual-pathed disk somewhere in thes=    cluster you will have problems with cluster common files. 0B    Workarounds include redirecting the file locations or not usingA    common files.  IIRC the latter may not be offically supported.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:26:24 +0800t, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>" Subject: Re: RF31 hardware problem- Message-ID: <877k5th2an.fsf@prep.synonet.com>t  $ rufusvii@aol.com (Rufus VII) writes:  K > when I start up the machine, I hear a "spin-up" sound but not the typicalq > "seek" sound.-   > The steps more detailed: > - press power on buttonmC > - first all lights are on (ready, write protect, fault) as normal:+ > - the disk spin up with no abnormal sounde 8888 > - all lights are off e/ > - after a few seconds the fault light goes oni  ? 8888 there should be a pile of seek sequences here as the drivel calibrates the servo etc.   A I can't think of what the normal death mode of RF31s is. It wouldt> probably be worth wile to re-seat the electronic board though.   -- i< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.n@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 07:23:44 -0500G From: briggs@encompasserve.org; Subject: Re: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?) 3 Message-ID: <G1gJA2RGrWbV@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  w In article <bgecdp$cvm$7@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: B > In article <Z3XVa.43$Hx3.48739@news.uswest.net>, "Carlc Internet1 > Services" <cc@nospamming-to-carlc.com> writes: o > H >> As an ISP provider, I've setup email servers with RBL and reverse DNS >> checking. > D > Do you reject stuff where the IP address does not translate to theJ > domain name (bad---there are many legitimate reasons to do this, i.e useF > CNAME, TCPIP$SMTP_FROM etc), or do you reject stuff where the domain3 > name does not translate to the IP address (good)?a  : What IP address would you require the domain translate to?  D Merely requiring that the domain resolve to an IP address usable forA return mail delivery is indeed a good thing.  But requiring it to ? resolve to the IP address of the client end of the current SMTP-' connection?  That would be a bad thing.u  D I, for one, use a different machine for outbound relay than I do for= inbound.  Many folks relay through their ISP.  Some folks useeD forwarding addresses maintained on third party systems.  Your scheme' would appear to block all such traffic.-   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:53:34 +0100l0 From: Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam>& Subject: software maintenance contract4 Message-ID: <bgm32e$3se$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>   We have a maintenance contract.MF Being too small to deal directly with Digital/HP/Compaq, we have this = through our pet supplier, who go through a major distributor.   L Many moons ago, we bought a bunch of licences & hardware from said supplier.4 We asked them to put it on contract, which they did.  G It's now come to light that they changed the tier code of the licence, tI so that we bought a small licence, correct for our machine, and then got aH contracted for maintenance on a much bigger licence, which of course we B didn't have, for a much larger machine we bought at the same time.  F Queries on the price always brought back the statement "It's correct".  G Now that we've discovered it, of course, we'd like our money back, but  F our supplier isn't willing to dig in his pocket, and nor is the major 6 distributor - presumably most of the money went to HP.  G Who should I talk to at HP ? Is there any likelihood of them doing the  * decent thing, or not ? Whose error is it ?  I I realise I should have noticed the error, but by the same token Digital mH shouldn't have made it - and they're the ones who are now substantially  better off in consequence.E I presume someone (presumably at Digital) looked at the machine we'd eI just bought, and 'corrected' the maintenance code without telling anyone.hH Getting any sense out of Digital on licencing questions was always nigh  on impossible.   Thanks,  Chrisi   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:12:39 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> * Subject: Re: software maintenance contract' Message-ID: <3F2E9407.2070301@MMaz.com>a   Chris Sharman wrote:   >  > Many moons ago...-   [snip]   >a. > I realise I should have noticed the error... >e [snip]I Too much water has passed under the bridge, consider it a lesson learned -A for the future, you will not see any of the differences in price rH refunded if you are dealing with a business transaction that dates back E to Digital, through indirect channels of distribution...  If you are tH still doing business with your channels, perhaps you can at least press H them to renew at their cost, rather than retailor discounted pricing to  make up for it....   Barry-   -- i  > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                        .   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 02:30:03 -0700c1 From: phil.pulley@astrium-space.com (Phil Pulley)j. Subject: Specifying disk device names on Alpha= Message-ID: <90004509.0308040130.671317f6@posting.google.com>   A I am a newcomer to OpenVMS systems and am currently configuring 2u4 Alphastation XP900's to host some specific software.  D In order for the software to run the disk devices it uses need to beE configured 'DKB100' and 'DKB200'(I can't change this without changingo0 baselined config files which I don't want to do)  < The XP900's I am using are fitted with a single channel SCSIC controller (SN-KZPCA-AA, LSI Logic Symbios SYM8952U) which connects.D internally to the boot disk and a DAT tape drive and externally to 2/ removable disk drives in a BA356 storage shelf.s  F SRM console shows the 3 SCSI disk devices as DKA0 (the internal disk),, DKA100 and DKA200 and the tape drive MKA400.  A Booting OPenVMS 7.2-1 from DKA0 produces the same device names asE above.  E My question is... is there an easy way to change the device naming tot3 make DKA100 become DKB100 and DKA200 become DKB200? A Making all the SCSI devices use 'B' instead of 'A' in their names@ would be OK.B (I guess I could always buy an additional SCSI controller for eachC system but that seems an unnecessary expense as all my SCSI devicesp will fit on one channel)  D I am reading the manuals currently to try and find a way forward but would appreciate any advice.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:28:39 +0100 * From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>2 Subject: Re: Specifying disk device names on Alpha' Message-ID: <bglcd3$ddc$1@lore.csc.com>    Phil Pulley wrote: > C > I am a newcomer to OpenVMS systems and am currently configuring 2 6 > Alphastation XP900's to host some specific software. > F > In order for the software to run the disk devices it uses need to beG > configured 'DKB100' and 'DKB200'(I can't change this without changingf2 > baselined config files which I don't want to do) > ...,F > I am reading the manuals currently to try and find a way forward but > would appreciate any advice.   Yes. DON'T use DKxn00 ANYTHING!t  * Sorry for shouting, but just do not do it.  H When you mount the disks, they have labels, volume names, e.g. SYSTEM or USER.h  A Logical names are defined when the disks are mounted (they can me, overridden at mount time).    e.g. DISK$SYSTEM: and DISK$USER:  F I put those colons in to illustrate you can use them as any device. If> DKA100 was mounted with the label SYSTEM, then DISK$SYSTEM: is equivalent to DKA100.e  H Now, if for whatever reason that disk moved to DKB100, it would STILL be called DISK$SYSTEM  E If your requirements changed, and you wanted to use host based volume E shadowing (mirroring under operating system control) you would not be.G able to use DK anything, yet the volume label DISK$SYSTEM would remain.n  D All this means, you code the DISK$SYSTEM or DISK$USER labels ONCE in! your application, then forget it.r  E There are other methods, you can create your own supplementary volume B labels which either draw from the DISK$ logicals, or if absolutely= necessary (but with more potential messing about) use a lowero/ representation', like DSA5: or $1$DKA300: or...n  G I hope you listen to this advice, as someone that has oft had to fiddle C with systems with multiple layers of logical names pointing to longnH retired physical devices several upgrades deep, you can either make your life easy or difficult.   D You could quite easily dig yourself into this hole right now, simplyF define DKB100 to point at DKA100 at a system/exec level. Of course, ifA you go on to add a controller, you're in for a rough ride. Do youoE replace the redefinitions for the non existent controller for anothersH non existant controller, move the original disks onto the new controllerH and add the new disk to the old controller. You're making life difficult
 for yourself.k  G I would now advise familiarizing yourself with the user environment andfE logical names. Users can be guided out of bad practice by good system G management processes. System managers with little or no user experiencewH should study the manuals / documentation and come here for advice, and I2 hope you don't think I've been too rough with you.  D A question for you now, why don't you want to change the base config files, what is the problem?n   -- e? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot coms   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:33:31 -0400& From: "Island" <dbturner@islandco.com>2 Subject: Re: Specifying disk device names on Alpha/ Message-ID: <visrpqqgm9vl12@news.supernews.com>r   Phil   Try this   >>>set os_type Unix  set boot_osflags 0,0  E This may change the naming convention of the devices to make the DQAx-- devices become DKA and then a SCSI controller_ should be DKBxx.   DavidS    > "Phil Pulley" <phil.pulley@astrium-space.com> wrote in message7 news:90004509.0308040130.671317f6@posting.google.com...QC > I am a newcomer to OpenVMS systems and am currently configuring 2 6 > Alphastation XP900's to host some specific software. >mF > In order for the software to run the disk devices it uses need to beG > configured 'DKB100' and 'DKB200'(I can't change this without changingt2 > baselined config files which I don't want to do) >d> > The XP900's I am using are fitted with a single channel SCSIE > controller (SN-KZPCA-AA, LSI Logic Symbios SYM8952U) which connectsCF > internally to the boot disk and a DAT tape drive and externally to 21 > removable disk drives in a BA356 storage shelf.g >fH > SRM console shows the 3 SCSI disk devices as DKA0 (the internal disk),. > DKA100 and DKA200 and the tape drive MKA400. >AC > Booting OPenVMS 7.2-1 from DKA0 produces the same device names as  > above. >-G > My question is... is there an easy way to change the device naming to 5 > make DKA100 become DKB100 and DKA200 become DKB200?tC > Making all the SCSI devices use 'B' instead of 'A' in their names  > would be OK.D > (I guess I could always buy an additional SCSI controller for eachE > system but that seems an unnecessary expense as all my SCSI devicesk > will fit on one channel) >sF > I am reading the manuals currently to try and find a way forward but > would appreciate any advice.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Aug 2003 08:19:25 -0700e1 From: phil.pulley@astrium-space.com (Phil Pulley) 2 Subject: Re: Specifying disk device names on Alpha< Message-ID: <90004509.0308040719.62c0708@posting.google.com>  Y Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message news:<bglcd3$ddc$1@lore.csc.com>...e > Phil Pulley wrote: > > E > > I am a newcomer to OpenVMS systems and am currently configuring 2a8 > > Alphastation XP900's to host some specific software. > > H > > In order for the software to run the disk devices it uses need to beI > > configured 'DKB100' and 'DKB200'(I can't change this without changingr4 > > baselined config files which I don't want to do) > > ... H > > I am reading the manuals currently to try and find a way forward but  > > would appreciate any advice. > ! > Yes. DON'T use DKxn00 ANYTHING!p > , > Sorry for shouting, but just do not do it. > J > When you mount the disks, they have labels, volume names, e.g. SYSTEM or > USER.u > C > Logical names are defined when the disks are mounted (they can meh > overridden at mount time). > " > e.g. DISK$SYSTEM: and DISK$USER: > H > I put those colons in to illustrate you can use them as any device. If@ > DKA100 was mounted with the label SYSTEM, then DISK$SYSTEM: is > equivalent to DKA100.e > J > Now, if for whatever reason that disk moved to DKB100, it would STILL be > called DISK$SYSTEM > G > If your requirements changed, and you wanted to use host based volumetG > shadowing (mirroring under operating system control) you would not be I > able to use DK anything, yet the volume label DISK$SYSTEM would remain.m > F > All this means, you code the DISK$SYSTEM or DISK$USER labels ONCE in# > your application, then forget it.o > G > There are other methods, you can create your own supplementary volumeSD > labels which either draw from the DISK$ logicals, or if absolutely? > necessary (but with more potential messing about) use a lowerk1 > representation', like DSA5: or $1$DKA300: or...  > I > I hope you listen to this advice, as someone that has oft had to fiddle>E > with systems with multiple layers of logical names pointing to longrJ > retired physical devices several upgrades deep, you can either make your > life easy or difficult.e > F > You could quite easily dig yourself into this hole right now, simplyH > define DKB100 to point at DKA100 at a system/exec level. Of course, ifC > you go on to add a controller, you're in for a rough ride. Do youaG > replace the redefinitions for the non existent controller for anotheraJ > non existant controller, move the original disks onto the new controllerJ > and add the new disk to the old controller. You're making life difficult > for yourself.  > I > I would now advise familiarizing yourself with the user environment andcG > logical names. Users can be guided out of bad practice by good systemtI > management processes. System managers with little or no user experiencecJ > should study the manuals / documentation and come here for advice, and I4 > hope you don't think I've been too rough with you. > F > A question for you now, why don't you want to change the base config > files, what is the problem?.   Thanks for the advice.B To answer your question - the software application is a legacy one0 which has only just been modified & re-released.A The application is launched via a .com file which defines logical   names for the disk devices used.F The problem is that, as this file is part of the baselined applicationB source, it cannot be readily altered to accommodate different host	 hardware.F6 Very bad practice & inconvenient but that's how it is!E I don't want to change the baseline as that would cause a lot of QA & # versioning /documentation problems.   A In the circumstances (legacy application, limited lifetime, smalleB number of hosts all standalone, no possibility of additional hostsC etc. etc.) it seems that digging myself into the hole you mentionedd@ and defining dkb100 as dka100 via a logical name is the best wayA forward - for some reason I had convinced myself that it wouldn't  work.c  E Your suggestion of using the automatically assigned logical names foru@ disk volumes (disk$...)is obviously the best solution if we wereE changing the application - I will bear it in mind should that happen.-  > FYI we do not use VMS nowadays and there is no in-house systemE management expertise or even a user base - so I just got lumbered anda have to make the best of it!) Hence my dumb questions to the newsgroup.9    
 Thanks again.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:10:26 +0100i* From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>2 Subject: Re: Specifying disk device names on Alpha' Message-ID: <bgm0ds$jqg$1@lore.csc.com>i   Phil Pulley wrote: > [ > Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message news:<bglcd3$ddc$1@lore.csc.com>...d ... C > In the circumstances (legacy application, limited lifetime, smalltD > number of hosts all standalone, no possibility of additional hostsE > etc. etc.) it seems that digging myself into the hole you mentionedRB > and defining dkb100 as dka100 via a logical name is the best wayC > forward - for some reason I had convinced myself that it wouldn'tp > work.s > G > Your suggestion of using the automatically assigned logical names for B > disk volumes (disk$...)is obviously the best solution if we wereG > changing the application - I will bear it in mind should that happen.,  F I have some quite evil methods in forcing people to use system managerE designated access methods to storage (and other items) but we'll skipeC the BOFH lesson now. Most experienced people here could work it outsG anyway :-> Actually, perhaps Sue should offer a prize for the most eviln@ trick on a VMS system, hint hint (Hoff is banned from entering).  i@ > FYI we do not use VMS nowadays and there is no in-house systemG > management expertise or even a user base - so I just got lumbered and  > have to make the best of it!+ > Hence my dumb questions to the newsgroup.t >  > Thanks again..  C You're welcome. It's interesting to note yet another system sitting  there just doing its thing.    -- S? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences' nclews at csc dot comu   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:28:17 +0100( From: "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com>2 Subject: Re: Specifying disk device names on Alpha9 Message-ID: <bgm53l$q0foi$1@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>c  7 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in messagea! news:bgm0ds$jqg$1@lore.csc.com...  > >kH > I have some quite evil methods in forcing people to use system managerG > designated access methods to storage (and other items) but we'll skip"E > the BOFH lesson now. Most experienced people here could work it outdI > anyway :-> Actually, perhaps Sue should offer a prize for the most evil B > trick on a VMS system, hint hint (Hoff is banned from entering). >l1 No, No No... Hoff has to be the head judge... :-)t     -- John Travell" Independent VMS crashdump analyst. john- at - jomatech - dot - com  +44-(0)23-92552229 http://www.jomatech.com/       ---3& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 01/08/2003    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.428 ************************