1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 05 Aug 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 430       Contents: batch job details  Re: batch job details  Re: batch job details % Computer Systems & Automation Manager ) Re: Computer Systems & Automation Manager G Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates) A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer  error count on volumes Re: error count on volumes- Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver - Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver - Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver - Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + RE: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer  mail installation files  Re: mail installation files  Re: mail installation files  Re: mail installation files  Re: mail installation files  Re: mail installation files  Re: mail installation files  Re: mail installation files 4 My system can not start (VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0)8 Re: My system can not start (VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0)8 Re: My system can not start (VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0)8 Re: My system can not start (VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0) NTP problem  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates / pls help: install OS on DS10L without console ? 3 Re: pls help: install OS on DS10L without console ? B Re: PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processor! Re: software maintenance contract ! RE: software maintenance contract ! Re: software maintenance contract  VMS License audits Re: VMS License audits Re: VMS License audits RE: VMS License audits Re: VMS License audits Re: Web Apps for VMS Re: Web Apps for VMS& Re: [Change topic -> OT] Pence/Pennies  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:12:54 +0100 (BST)= From: =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?= <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com>  Subject: batch job details@ Message-ID: <20030805111254.89059.qmail@web41111.mail.yahoo.com>  
 Hello all,4 How can I see all details of batch job A in queue B?   $sh entry A/full5 will only show me full details of job A in SYS$BATCH. * But how can I view this detail in Queue B?   Thanks     ===== 	 Sincerely  Amit S  H ________________________________________________________________________E Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo! ( Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 06:28:13 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: batch job details3 Message-ID: <V0nwCWQGsY5v@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <20030805111254.89059.qmail@web41111.mail.yahoo.com>, =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?= <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com> writes: > Hello all,6 > How can I see all details of batch job A in queue B? >  > $sh entry A/full7 > will only show me full details of job A in SYS$BATCH. , > But how can I view this detail in Queue B?   I don't have that problem:   $ show entry 3997/full4   Entry  Jobname         Username     Blocks  Status4   -----  -------         --------     ------  ------N    3997  SMTP-NETMAIL    SYSTEM           15  Pending (check execution queues).          On generic server queue MULTINET_SMTPF          Submitted 20-DEC-2002 23:53:07.59 /FORM=DEFAULT /PRIORITY=100P          File: _NORNS$DKA100:[SYSCOMMON.MULTINET.SPOOL]SMTP-NETMAIL.2020019F-18;              /DELETE  G Although to see an entry submitted by another user I cannot use the job G name and must use the entry number, as one would expect from the output  of the command   	HELP SHOW ENTRY   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:41:30 +0100" From: "Rolona" <nospam@nospam.com> Subject: Re: batch job details> Message-ID: <AwOXa.4144$dL4.1534@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>  @ You will need privileges to do that, and issue the command $SHOW QUE/FULL/ALL B    : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:V0nwCWQGsY5v@eisner.encompasserve.org... B > In article <20030805111254.89059.qmail@web41111.mail.yahoo.com>,? =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?= <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com> writes:  > > Hello all,8 > > How can I see all details of batch job A in queue B? > >  > > $sh entry A/full9 > > will only show me full details of job A in SYS$BATCH. . > > But how can I view this detail in Queue B? >  > I don't have that problem: >  > $ show entry 3997/full6 >   Entry  Jobname         Username     Blocks  Status6 >   -----  -------         --------     ------  ------H >    3997  SMTP-NETMAIL    SYSTEM           15  Pending (check execution queues) 0 >          On generic server queue MULTINET_SMTPH >          Submitted 20-DEC-2002 23:53:07.59 /FORM=DEFAULT /PRIORITY=100 >          File:A _NORNS$DKA100:[SYSCOMMON.MULTINET.SPOOL]SMTP-NETMAIL.2020019F-18;  >              /DELETE > I > Although to see an entry submitted by another user I cannot use the job I > name and must use the entry number, as one would expect from the output  > of the command >  > HELP SHOW ENTRY    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 01:08:32 -0700 # From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) . Subject: Computer Systems & Automation Manager= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0308050008.292ed469@posting.google.com>   D Various newspapers here (coincidentally all owned by Rupert Murdoch)B have recently combined their job classifieds using the "careerone"; brand so I thought I would test it out with a "vms" search. @ Though only one job posting was returned, I thought it may be of interest to cov readers.
 DisclaimerB I have no connection to either the recruitment agency or BHP SteelG and please do not complain to me if your browser doesn't show the page.  PhilA http://jobs.careerone.com.au/search/dsp_show_job.cfm?AD_ID=229537    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 07:58:32 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 2 Subject: Re: Computer Systems & Automation Manager3 Message-ID: <xFRoTBbO5LJE@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <1ca82fc6.0308050008.292ed469@posting.google.com>, dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) writes:  > PhilC > http://jobs.careerone.com.au/search/dsp_show_job.cfm?AD_ID=229537     &   So how is Port Kembla in the spring?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:22:58 -0400 0 From: Christopher McNabb <cmcnabb@n0sp4m.vt.edu>P Subject: Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates): Message-ID: <pan.2003.08.05.13.22.48.980833@n0sp4m.vt.edu>  6 On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:01:25 -0600, Kevin Handy wrote:C > I think he means typing the three characters 'Y/L' at the prompt. > > Several places allow a switch to the value to enable/disable > "secret" options.   F Is there a list of all of these "Secret" options?  I'd be particularlyD interested in any that enabled LAT without having to install DECNET.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 08:33:48 -0700 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0308050733.53bf2840@posting.google.com>   v koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in message news:<Na2zjf3Ks50q@eisner.encompasserve.org>...R > In article <3F2D611B.4050504@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes:# > > VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > > G > >> ...and the files were of the form P#######.JPG.  A simple DCL COPY G > >> P*.JPG *.* would have taken me about 10 seconds or less -- not 45+     C And you would have duplicated your files in the same directory! :-)     4 > >> minutes and umpteen different rebott gyrations. > >   > > Then why didn't you do that? > > J > > Click START on the taskbar (bottom left corner), "Run..." type COMMAND > > and press enter. > E >    Yeah, right, now that's such an obviuos was to get a DOS window.     @ On my W2K box you can find it with Start, Programs, Accessories,$ Command Prompt. It's not *that* bad.  E On other Windows boxes it's Start, Programs, MS-DOS or something like  that.   E But I agree, there's no way on your own to know about Start/Run/ cmd. C Maybe it's in the help pages, but I never saw any hint of it there.     C On the general question in this thread: I think that PCs/Macs would ' not have gotten so popular without GUI.    [rant mode ON:]   F But I can't stand the poorly designed aspects of Windows. For example,F why do they make so many display windows too small so that you have toF scroll and/or click ad nauseam just to read or find something? SupposeB someone gave you a book, but you had to read it using a mask whoseA hole was, say, 1" x 2" large. You'd be pretty upset. But the same C thing in Windows -- somehow, most people don't seem to mind. We got C the big screens and tiny little field windows with scroll bars when B the whole text or folder tree would easily fit on the screen if itA were not arbitrarily constrained by those stupid too-small dialog E boxes/windows/whatever-the-f-theyr'e called. The Windows person would D tell you "but you can scroll". Well, with my book and mask scenario,? you can also "scroll", but who would want to? It's like using a B hallway whose ceiling is only 3 feet above the floor. "But you can crawl." ARRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!   [rant mode OFF:]   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:48:23 +0100 (BST)= From: =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?= <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com>  Subject: error count on volumes @ Message-ID: <20030805124823.56980.qmail@web41108.mail.yahoo.com>   Hi all, & sh device <ABCD> gave the foll output:1 Device                  Device           Error     Volume         Free  Trans Mnt2  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count Cnt 6 DSA11:                  Mounted              0  SKE2           2023287   652   2 / $1$DGA402:     (APPLE)  ShadowSetMember      9   (member of DSA11:)/ $1$DGA1402:    (APPLE)  ShadowSetMember      6   (member of DSA11:)  ) Question: What does the error count mean? $ WHat do I need to do to resolve it?  Thanks in advance...   ===== 	 Sincerely  Amit S  H ________________________________________________________________________E Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo! ( Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:29:16 -0500% From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> # Subject: Re: error count on volumes ; Message-ID: <1gOXa.77272$6a3.2150664@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>    Possibly nothing.   I $1$DGAxxx are Fibre channel attached (SAN) drives most likely in an HSG80 I cabinet.  The "errors" are most likely an informational state change that H your LUN has been path switced from one of your multiple access paths toL another path.  This can occur when you make a change to your SAN fabric, and distribute a new fabric config.   ? To really see what is going on, you need to look at the storage . controller(s) that are presenting these disks.   Mike Naime.   5 amit sawhney <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com> wrote in message : news:20030805124823.56980.qmail@web41108.mail.yahoo.com...	 > Hi all, ( > sh device <ABCD> gave the foll output:0 > Device                  Device           Error  > Volume         Free  Trans Mnt0 >  Name                   Status           Count > Label        Blocks Count Cnt 6 > DSA11:                  Mounted              0  SKE2 >         2023287   652   2 0 > $1$DGA402:     (APPLE)  ShadowSetMember      9 > (member of DSA11:)0 > $1$DGA1402:    (APPLE)  ShadowSetMember      6 > (member of DSA11:) > + > Question: What does the error count mean? % > WHat do I need to do to resolve it?  > Thanks in advance... >  > =====  > Sincerely  > Amit S > J > ________________________________________________________________________G > Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo! * > Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 01:38:23 -0700 # From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) 6 Subject: Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0308050038.42e31547@posting.google.com>   W "m68k" <m68k@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<rRqdncBIy_vb2bCiU-KYuQ@comcast.com>... @ > THX. I will grab an 8-10gb SCSI drive from eBAY for the Alpha. > J > I have been working with VMS for about two weeks now (mainly install andM > configuration). The biggest learning curve from Unix/Linux to VMS so far is K > file handling and the absence of pipes. I also am a VI fan, but I want to I > learn EDT so I am not going to install the VMS port (at least not yet). = If you stick to edit/tpu you can then emulate any text editor  (except emacs and teco maybe) 6 There is a vi implementation in tpu on the freeware cd) (you have got the freeware cd havn't you)  Phil   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 07:54:42 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 6 Subject: Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver3 Message-ID: <iaT$fAVgJuL6@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3F2F1360.ECE1A9BA@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > E > ...but the implementation is a bit different. The VMS equivalent of H > stderr cannot be redirected by 2>..., input cannot be redirected usingH > "<", and ">>" cannot be used to append to an existing file (at, least,I > it doesn't work for me on V7.3-1). The following sequence would emulate " > some of those features, however:  G    Just like moving between eunichs shells.  Ever try 2> in csh?  To my E    knowledge you can redirect 1 in csh, and you can add 2 to the path D    chosen for 1, but you can't separately redirect 2.  So I use ksh.  B    As for < and >>, I'm quite sure I've used them in DCL, but I'llB    have to run off and see if I can come up with working examples.C    I've often had trouble with commands in any shell that wouldn't  -    work with < the way I thought they should.   
 > $ PIPE -' > 	(DEFINE/USER SYS$INPUT LOGIN.COM ; -  > 	TYPE SYS$INPUT) | -/ > 	(DEFINE/USER SYS$ERRROR SEARCH_ERROR.LIS ; -  > 	SEARCH SYS$PIPE "SET DEF")     @    The following has the same result on my 7.2-1 system, I triedB    it with search strings that were and were not in login.com, and6    when seach_error.lis did and did not already exist:  
    $pipe -+       	(DEFINE/USER SYS$INPUT LOGIN.COM ; -   	TYPE SYS$INPUT) | - 4       	SEARCH SYS$PIPE "SET DEF" 2> SEARCH_ERROR.LIS   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 07:56:01 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 6 Subject: Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver3 Message-ID: <frm$TF5mZ248@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <1ca82fc6.0308050038.42e31547@posting.google.com>, dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) writes: ? > If you stick to edit/tpu you can then emulate any text editor  > (except emacs and teco maybe)   B    I think you've never tried emulating EDT on an LA36 using TPU. <    There's a reason why TPU only emulates EDT's keypad mode.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 07:48:16 -0700 % From: Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn) 6 Subject: Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver= Message-ID: <a98cd882.0308050648.6e7489ce@posting.google.com>   ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3F2F1360.ECE1A9BA@fsi.net>... > Bob Koehler wrote: > > V > > In article <rRqdncBIy_vb2bCiU-KYuQ@comcast.com>, "m68k" <m68k@comcast.net> writes:D > > > THX. I will grab an 8-10gb SCSI drive from eBAY for the Alpha. > > > N > > > I have been working with VMS for about two weeks now (mainly install andQ > > > configuration). The biggest learning curve from Unix/Linux to VMS so far is - > > > file handling and the absence of pipes.  > > 8 > >    You will find pipes documented under "help pipe". > E > ...but the implementation is a bit different. The VMS equivalent of H > stderr cannot be redirected by 2>..., input cannot be redirected usingH > "<", and ">>" cannot be used to append to an existing file (at, least,I > it doesn't work for me on V7.3-1). The following sequence would emulate " > some of those features, however: > 
 > $ PIPE -' > 	(DEFINE/USER SYS$INPUT LOGIN.COM ; -  > 	TYPE SYS$INPUT) | -/ > 	(DEFINE/USER SYS$ERRROR SEARCH_ERROR.LIS ; -  > 	SEARCH SYS$PIPE "SET DEF")     & On my DS10 with V7.3-1 plus all ECO's:   $ dir SEARCH_ERROR.LIS! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found 5 $ pipe search login.com "set def" 2> SEARCH_ERROR.LIS ' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matched  $ type SEARCH_ERROR.LIS ' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matched  $    Seems to work as documented.  	 Bart Zorn    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:06:49 +0100( From: "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer9 Message-ID: <bgnora$q0841$1@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>   < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3F2F10F3.EA6FB801@fsi.net... # > VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > > J > > In article <+hcIxEp8ceeq@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:; > > >In article <3F2D47C7.8040902@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward  <deanw@rdrop.com> writes:  > > >> Paul Sture wrote: > > >>> This _should_ be easy. > > >>>  > > >>> If you have: > > >>>  > > >>> a.txt b.txt c.txt d.txt  > > >>> J > > >>> Click on a.txt and hold shift down whilst clicking on c.txt and it( > > >>> will select a.txt, b.txt, c.txt. > > >>> ) > > >>> Only want a.txt, c.txt and d.txt?  > > >>> H > > >>> Click on a.txt, hold down CTRL then click on c.txt then click on > > >>> d.txt. > > >> > > >> Assume what he had was: > > >> > > >> a.jpg   f.jpg   k.jpg > > >> b.jpg   g.jpg   l.jpg > > >> c.jpg   h.jpg   m.jpg > > >> d.jpg   i.jpg   n.mpg > > >> e.jpg   j.jpg   o.jpg > > >>L > > >> And he wanted to select b.jpg to n.jpg inclusive. If he clicks b.jpg,L > > >> then SHIFT-click n.jpg, he'll get b,c,d,g,h,i,l,m, and n- leaving outE > > >> e,f,j, and k. That's the way Windows "works" when dealing with  multiple > > >> columns of files. > > >> > > > J > > >Aha, the light dawns. About the first job I do to a Windows system isL > > >to switch Explorer to List view, so I get 1 column, plus the file sizes > > >and dates.  > > ( > > How do you configure that?  I run IE > ! > AH! The light dawns brighter...  > 2 > Run WhineBloze Exploder, not Interhose Exploder. >  > How? > = > Right-click on the Start button, select the Explore option.  >  Still big-time OT:-)F Does anyone want to know how to set 'explore' to be the default action instead of 'open' ? D I can give a Win2k example, you would have to translate it for other billyware editions.      -- John Travell" Independent VMS crashdump analyst. john- at - jomatech - dot - com  +44-(0)23-92552229 http://www.jomatech.com/       --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 01/08/2003    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:21:50 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer0 Message-ID: <00A23EAA.BA2EA5A7@SendSpamHere.ORG>  V In article <4AUG200319450253@gerg.tamu.edu>, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:% >VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes... W >}In article <+hcIxEp8ceeq@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes: S >}>In article <3F2D47C7.8040902@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes:  >}>> Paul Sture wrote: >}>>> This _should_ be easy. >}>>>  >}>>> If you have: >}>>>  >}>>> a.txt b.txt c.txt d.txt  >}>>> H >}>>> Click on a.txt and hold shift down whilst clicking on c.txt and it& >}>>> will select a.txt, b.txt, c.txt. >}>>> ' >}>>> Only want a.txt, c.txt and d.txt?  >}>>> F >}>>> Click on a.txt, hold down CTRL then click on c.txt then click on >}>>> d.txt. >}>>   >}>> Assume what he had was: >}>>   >}>> a.jpg   f.jpg   k.jpg >}>> b.jpg   g.jpg   l.jpg >}>> c.jpg   h.jpg   m.jpg >}>> d.jpg   i.jpg   n.mpg >}>> e.jpg   j.jpg   o.jpg >}>>  J >}>> And he wanted to select b.jpg to n.jpg inclusive. If he clicks b.jpg,J >}>> then SHIFT-click n.jpg, he'll get b,c,d,g,h,i,l,m, and n- leaving outL >}>> e,f,j, and k. That's the way Windows "works" when dealing with multiple >}>> columns of files. >}>>   >}> H >}>Aha, the light dawns. About the first job I do to a Windows system isJ >}>to switch Explorer to List view, so I get 1 column, plus the file sizes
 >}>and dates.  >}   >}  J >}How do you configure that?  I run IE and enter: file://C: and all I everJ >}get is icons.  The "preferrences" in the _F_ile menu is always gray (I'mC >}told this means if cannot be selected and, of course, I cannot).   >}--Q >}VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  > * >Why, exactly, would you use IE for this?  > G >Use "E" (so to speak), just plain "Explorer", not "IE". Two completely O >different programs. As in "double-click on My Computer not Internet Explorer".   O OK.  And just how does "My Computer" now become "Explorer" sans the "Internet"?   M When one looks at the screen there is a PeeCee icon which says "My Computer", M not "Explorer".  If everybody is going to call everything "Explorer", how the = hell do you ever figure out how to navigate this nightmare?    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:39:09 -0400# From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> 4 Subject: RE: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer: Message-ID: <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDMEGJDMAA.dallen@nist.gov>   > -----Original Message-----@ > From: Michael Moroney [mailto:moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com]' > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 9:33 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 6 > Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer >  > - > p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:  > J > >And you've just jogged my memory there. Win98 comes out of the box withN > >the file types hidden, and IIRC files with the hidden and system attributes. > >too. I routinely change those settings too. > K > How do you do that (change all those hidden/system files to normal on W98 L > by running a command file?)  I can't believe the crap that Billy is trying > to hide from us! > -- > -Mike  >    	I would suspect he motivation for "hidden" files in windows is no more sinister than that in Unix or any of the other OS's that have this concept. The vast majority of Windows users NEED to be kept in ignorance of sensitive operating system files for their own} good - they are not trustworthy priviliged users ;-) Any experienced computer professional (the real McCoy) will learn how to  navigate hidden files. As for your question, I can't recall the exact option in other versions of Windows (it's pretty much the same} in all of them) but in W2K you can use My Computer->Tools->Folder Options->View to customize much of this including hiding or F un-hiding files. Sort of like aliasing/unaliasing ls to ls -a in Unix!   Dan    ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:53:31 +0000 (UTC)7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer/ Message-ID: <bgo5rr$bgk$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>   S In article <00A23EAA.BA2EA5A7@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  !snip!P !OK.  And just how does "My Computer" now become "Explorer" sans the "Internet"? ! N !When one looks at the screen there is a PeeCee icon which says "My Computer",N !not "Explorer".  If everybody is going to call everything "Explorer", how the> !hell do you ever figure out how to navigate this nightmare?    L I too, share some of Brian's frustration; in spite of the fact that the goodM folks at XEROX PARC told me that this is a more "intuitive" and easier way to K deal with a complex machine, I still found that the only way to help myself O navigate around a Windows box was to click everything in sight, every which way I I could think of, and then note (and try to reproduce) the sequence(s) of N key/mouse clicks that did the task which I intended to do!  Talk about feeling  like a laboratory animal...		:-)   <rant>L I'm sorry, but *for me*, that is no way to "learn" how to use a machine.  NoO wonder the folks in fealty to the Big Redmond Machine walk around with beatific L smiles on their faces.  They *know*, they have the *power*, and they lord itN over the majority of the "computing" world, like a drug lord over his enslaved users. </rant>    There.  I feel better now...     !-- P !VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM !           6 !  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"  !    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 07:29:52 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer3 Message-ID: <Y5zoTMfvrmIT@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <00A23E47.6E97151A@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  > A > Left click, right click, CTRL-click, shift-click, ALT-click,...  >  > Where is the intuitive?   "    click, click, click, click, ...          tick, tick, tick, tick, ...   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 07:33:52 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer3 Message-ID: <kqFWaVrr$hSE@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <00A23EAA.BA2EA5A7@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  > O > When one looks at the screen there is a PeeCee icon which says "My Computer", O > not "Explorer".  If everybody is going to call everything "Explorer", how the ? > hell do you ever figure out how to navigate this nightmare?     D    That level of confusion is exactly what MS used to claim in courtG    that "explorer" is a base component of Windows and can't be removed, D    no matter how much "explorer" looks like an application competing&    with Netscape.  AOL finaly gave up.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:27:57 +0200 + From: Rok Vidmar <Rok.Vidmar@NUK.Uni-Lj.Si> 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer& Message-ID: <3f2fccfe$1@NUK.Uni-Lj.Si>   VAXman- wrote:  O > When one looks at the screen there is a PeeCee icon which says "My Computer", O > not "Explorer".  If everybody is going to call everything "Explorer", how the ? > hell do you ever figure out how to navigate this nightmare?     N   Bring pointer on this icon (it is allways good idea to have pointer on icon,K *not* on the description text). Right-click on this icon (left-click if you 6 are lefthanded) and select Explore in the pop-up menu./   Yap, people don't call everything DCL on VMS.    --   Regards,  D Rok Vidmar                       Internet:  rok.vidmar@nuk.uni-lj.si; National and University Library  Phone:     +386 1 421 5461 ; Turjaska 1, SI-1000 Ljubljana    Fax:       +386 1 421 5464  Slovenia   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:16:30 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer, Message-ID: <3F2FBC3E.4000702@tsoft-inc.com>   Carl Perkins wrote:   = > moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes... . > }p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:K > }>And you've just jogged my memory there. Win98 comes out of the box with O > }>the file types hidden, and IIRC files with the hidden and system attributes / > }>too. I routinely change those settings too.  > } L > }How do you do that (change all those hidden/system files to normal on W98M > }by running a command file?)  I can't believe the crap that Billy is trying  > }to hide from us!  > }--  > }-Mike > C > Run the Explorer - you know, that thing you use to see the files. C > Any mode, so just double clicking My Computer is fine. Notice how D > there is a menu bar. Look through the menus and see what is there.D > Select the item called "Options" (I didn't use 98 and earlier muchC > so it may be called something else along those lines). The window I > this opens is probably a paged display with a tab control for selecting I > the page. The tabs probably include one that lets you view and set what L > file types are associated with what program, and another one one, probablyI > the one it initially opens up showing, has a list of options. Somehwere G > in there there should be a place to select a "Show hidden file types" B > option or something along those lines - in some versions you mayF > have to deselect a "Hide hidden file types" instead. There are also H > options for controlling whether or not the file extension is displayedG > with the file name, and various other things. Most of them are pretty  > obvious as to what they do.  > C > Dosn't anybody ever actually look at stuff anymore? You know - do I > something like what the name of the program in this particular instance F > is? Be an explorer? Anybody? (Other than me, I mean.) All this stuffI > is in there, and it is not hidden from you - all you have to do is just L > look around. Sure there are some things that are convoluted and/or burriedE > multiple levels down in places you'd not expect it to be, and other J > things that you just can't change at all - but there are a lot of thingsI > that are easy to change. So change them, if you want to - but the first J > step is to actually look at the thing to find out what is right there inK > front of you so that you know what is easy to change. Spend a few seconds L > to see what is on those menus on the menu bar. If one of them is "Options"H > or "Settings" then click on it and see what your options are. It's notH > difficult to do and it usually only takes a few seconds to look. WhileK > you are at it, try right clicking on things to see what is on the context F > menu. How much time did it take for you to learn how to use VMS? NowI > how much time have you spent learning how to use Windows? It's probably H > a lot less (athough probably a larger percentage of time wasted tryingG > to do things the hard way or being irritated at how it works whithout F > ever looking to see if you can change it). You were willing to spendI > hours reading the VMS manuals - are you not willing to sepnd 30 seconds I > looking at the menu items that are right in front of you every time you I > use Windows? The simple fact is that you will probably use Windows many J > times in the future. You may as well learn a little about it. It'll save* > you much frustration and some time, too. > I > The default settings in most things Windows are such that everything is G > "simplified". This also equates to things being set to be less useful H > than many professional computer geeks would prefer, and sometimes justI > downright stupid. They hide things from you and sometimes don't display H > all the available controls. But you can frequently change the settingsI > or run the program in a way that it becomes much better to use than the  > default configuration. > J > Are any directories on your VMS system protected so that the users can'tM > see what is in them? If so, then you are just like "Billy" in this respect,  > are you not? > 
 > --- Carl >   5 Well.  At least the rant came from someone else.  :-)   D As part of installing Windoz 2000 Pro, I routinely do the following:  N Select properties for the wastebasket, and set it to delete files immediately.  8 Remove all the junk from the 'desktop', on the task bar.  P Dig down into the start menu, get a copy of a shortcut for Windows Explorer and  paste it on the desktop.  8 Run Windows Explorer and customize it to my preferences:  3 Right click on the tool bar and select 'customize'.  Remove most of the buttons. , Add the buttons I want, in the order I want.H Select views and set it for showing details (for a proper file listing).M Right click on the header bar in the right hand window and select the data I  L want to see in the 'details' view, then set the column widths appropriately.? Select the 'Tools' drop down menu, and select 'folder options'. 2 On the general tab select Windows classic folders.A On the 'view' tap change almost all the options for seeing files.e  M And most important, press the command button 'Like Current Folder' to insure tN that the settings I have chosen are now the default for all explorer windows! ? Do this last to insure you capture all the above modifications.s  O Mu biggest complaint is having to re-do all the above each time.  The settings rO are saved somewhere, I just don't know where, and/or how to copy/apply them to d another system.e  M I don't know why Windows Explorer is buried 3 levels deep in the 'out of the  J box' start menu.  To me, this is how you view your computer.  The default J settings are also rather poor.  It's like using 'DIR' rather than using a % customization in SYLOGIN.COM such as:t  @ $ DI            :== directory /size=all /owner_uic /protection -2                          /width=(file=25,owner=10)@ $ din           :== directory /size=all /owner_uic /protection -O                          /width=(file=25,owner=10) /modified /since="-60-00:00"t@ $ dit           :== directory /size=all /owner_uic /protection -I                          /width=(file=25,owner=10) /modified /since=TODAYi@ $ diy           :== directory /size=all /owner_uic /protection -M                          /width=(file=25,owner=10) /modified /since=YESTERDAYe   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:56:31 +0100( From: "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer9 Message-ID: <bgogmh$qkqec$1@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>e  , <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A23EAA.BA2EA5A7@SendSpamHere.ORG...G > In article <4AUG200319450253@gerg.tamu.edu>, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carlr Perkins) writes:' > >VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes...-J > >}In article <+hcIxEp8ceeq@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes: > >} >SE > OK.  And just how does "My Computer" now become "Explorer" sans thej "Internet"?b >tD > When one looks at the screen there is a PeeCee icon which says "My
 Computer",K > not "Explorer".  If everybody is going to call everything "Explorer", how  theo= > hell do you ever figure out how to navigate this nightmare?  > --  @ In the beginning (of windoze!) there was the 'Windows Explorer'.J (This was before Billy discovered the Internet :-) One would use this tool* to mess about with the files on your disk.H Later the Borg invented 'Internet Explorer', possibly named such just toH create the confusion that allowed them to sabotage Netscape. Despite theI fact that these functionalities are slowly merging into one, they are notg quite the same thing.n  	 Try this.r9 (windoze2k edition, generally similar in other varieties). Double click on 'My Computer'. In the window that opens do:# Tools menu: select 'Folder Options'o* in the pop-up select the 'File Types' tab.L Click on the 'File Types' sort bar (next to the 'Extensions' sort bar). This makes the next step easier.i? Scan down the list until you find 'Folder' (NOT 'File Folder'!)wJ Click the 'Advanced' button. Select 'Explore' then click the 'Set Default' button.-D 'OK' or 'Close' everything till the pop-up disappears. Close the 'My Computer' window.d  K Now again double-click 'My Computer', this time it opens with the 'folders'  pane present by default.  H I probably have a minefield of other useless tips about windoze. DespiteH having used it since a beta release of W95, I still prefer VMS for doing anything useful...   -- John Travell" Independent VMS crashdump analyst. john- at - jomatech - dot - com  +44-(0)23-92552229 http://www.jomatech.com/             ---H& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 01/08/2003O   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:47:22 +02004 From: "Axel Haringa" <axel.haringa@nl.compuware.com>  Subject: mail installation files< Message-ID: <newscache$wi45jh$ox7$1@news.emea.compuware.com>  	 Hi there,g  I I have some systems installed on which, at the time, the mail utility wassE unneeded and not installed. Does anyone know of a way to install mail L separately in a running OS, in stead of bringing down the machine, boot from the cd and reconfigure the OS?  J I have looked for useable packages on the OS cdrom, but haven't found any.C Is the latter possibility the only way to install the mail utility?/       thanks,      Axel Haringa   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 08:02:19 -0500-; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: mail installation files3 Message-ID: <ai6gHmYoFM19@eisner.encompasserve.org>   s In article <newscache$wi45jh$ox7$1@news.emea.compuware.com>, "Axel Haringa" <axel.haringa@nl.compuware.com> writes:. > Hi there,T > K > I have some systems installed on which, at the time, the mail utility wastG > unneeded and not installed. Does anyone know of a way to install mailuN > separately in a running OS, in stead of bringing down the machine, boot from  > the cd and reconfigure the OS? > L > I have looked for useable packages on the OS cdrom, but haven't found any.E > Is the latter possibility the only way to install the mail utility?8  A    MAIL is not a separately installable/removable utility via anyc    supported installation tool.d  E    SMTP is a separately controllable feature of all the TCP/IP stacks B    I've ever seen sold for VMS.  Perhaps your problem is just that    SMTP is disabled?  H    What error do you get when you try to run MAIL?  That error will helpC    us determine what has been done to remove mail from your system.n  A    What specific behaviour makes you think mail is not installed?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:01:06 +0100 * From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>$ Subject: Re: mail installation files' Message-ID: <bgognf$e7o$2@lore.csc.com>e   Charlie Hammond wrote: > > > In article <newscache$wi45jh$ox7$1@news.emea.compuware.com>,8 > "Axel Haringa" <axel.haringa@nl.compuware.com> writes: > L > >I have some systems installed on which, at the time, the mail utility wasH > >unneeded and not installed. Does anyone know of a way to install mailO > >separately in a running OS, in stead of bringing down the machine, boot from ! > >the cd and reconfigure the OS?i  C > On OpenVMS, the VMS Mail utility is part of the operating system.t= > If you have an OpenVMS system, just enter the command MAIL.pC > If the fails, see also HELP MAIL, or post details of the problem.5  G Am I losing it, or isn't MAIL one of the OPTIONAL or LIBRARY componentsc( ? (And therefore could be tailored on) ?   -- w? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot como   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:55:55 GMTa3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)-$ Subject: Re: mail installation files1 Message-ID: <%zPXa.1445$xC2.508@news.cpqcorp.net>(  = In article <newscache$wi45jh$ox7$1@news.emea.compuware.com>, w6 "Axel Haringa" <axel.haringa@nl.compuware.com> writes:  J >I have some systems installed on which, at the time, the mail utility wasF >unneeded and not installed. Does anyone know of a way to install mailM >separately in a running OS, in stead of bringing down the machine, boot fromo >the cd and reconfigure the OS?e  B Please tell us what operating system and version you are running, & and what mail utility you wish to use.  A On OpenVMS, the VMS Mail utility is part of the operating system.o; If you have an OpenVMS system, just enter the command MAIL. A If the fails, see also HELP MAIL, or post details of the problem.   C Do you have either DECnet (Phase-IV or DECnet Plus), or some vesiono= of TCP/IP serices installed, properly configured and running? 6 (Installing a network product may require re-booting.)   -- OJ       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:04:52 +02004 From: "Axel Haringa" <axel.haringa@nl.compuware.com>$ Subject: Re: mail installation files< Message-ID: <newscache$38j5jh$l08$1@news.emea.compuware.com>  C >    MAIL is not a separately installable/removable utility via anys! >    supported installation tool.  >tG >    SMTP is a separately controllable feature of all the TCP/IP stacksdD >    I've ever seen sold for VMS.  Perhaps your problem is just that >    SMTP is disabled? >dJ >    What error do you get when you try to run MAIL?  That error will helpE >    us determine what has been done to remove mail from your system.s > C >    What specific behaviour makes you think mail is not installed?s   Hi Bob,w   thanks for the reply,...   If was afraid of that...  4 smtp is not the problem, that is installed and runs.L Simply the image is not there because it was never installed. I know that soJ sure because I was the one to have the systems installed a couple of years ago...  % The error I get when calling mail is:w BEAST$ mail   , %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image MAIL  % -CLI-E-IMAGEFNF, image file not foundr- BEAST$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]MAIL.EXE;]      & is self explaining enough I'd think...  8 I'm afraid it will be a reconfigure of the OS after all.   thanks,)   Axel   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:30:19 GMTc3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)m$ Subject: Re: mail installation files2 Message-ID: <f4QXa.1456$HG2.1276@news.cpqcorp.net>  ( In article <bgognf$e7o$2@lore.csc.com>, , Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]> writes:  H >Am I losing it, or isn't MAIL one of the OPTIONAL or LIBRARY components) >? (And therefore could be tailored on) ?K  I Yes, you're correct.  MAIL is one of the UTLITIES that can be de-selected 3 on OpenVMS Alpha or tailored on/off on OpenVMS VAX.d  ? That said, let me step up on one of my favorite soap boxes ....   E There is generally little or no reason to install anything other thancG full OpenVMS with _all_ the options.  There are a very few options that_C may have security concerns in some sites with high security issues.rC Disk Space is almost always better addressed (costs less) by buying.D larger and/or more disks.  The cost of [re]installing something that  was excluded can be significant.   -- eJ       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 10:42:39 -0500r- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t$ Subject: Re: mail installation files3 Message-ID: <8U5NdEg0Pyki@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  h In article <f4QXa.1456$HG2.1276@news.cpqcorp.net>, hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) writes:  G > There is generally little or no reason to install anything other thanwI > full OpenVMS with _all_ the options.  There are a very few options thatmE > may have security concerns in some sites with high security issues.   E There is also the possibility of not wanting employees to spend their E time using some particular program.  Not installing it is easier thant messing with security controls.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 10:40:30 -05000- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)d$ Subject: Re: mail installation files3 Message-ID: <4LVfQYUYr9Wi@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <%zPXa.1445$xC2.508@news.cpqcorp.net>, hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) writes:t? > In article <newscache$wi45jh$ox7$1@news.emea.compuware.com>,  8 > "Axel Haringa" <axel.haringa@nl.compuware.com> writes: > K >>I have some systems installed on which, at the time, the mail utility was G >>unneeded and not installed. Does anyone know of a way to install mail-N >>separately in a running OS, in stead of bringing down the machine, boot from  >>the cd and reconfigure the OS?  C > On OpenVMS, the VMS Mail utility is part of the operating system.1   But the commandc  1 	SEARCH SYS$COMMON:[SYSUPD]VMSKITBLD.DAT MAIL.EXEw  0 seems to indicate that installation is optional.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:34:23 +0200( From: rafal.rybczynski@bankmillennium.pl= Subject: My system can not start (VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0)r" Message-ID: <5349330@MVB.SAIC.COM>   Helloh! I have VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0 ' I have problem with Hard Disk Capacity. F When I try to start system, I have information about low disk space: = diskG space not available for queue manager to continue.Free up 4400 blocks =e on disk ... My system can not start.) I need  make some free space on the disk.h  Please help resolve this problem  
 Regards=20 Rafa=B3-   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:52 +0100( From: "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com>A Subject: Re: My system can not start (VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0)V9 Message-ID: <bgo11m$qsv0l$1@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>E  5 "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> wrote in messaget% news:bgnvkj$lt2@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk...t > 7 > <rafal.rybczynski@bankmillennium.pl> wrote in messageo news:5349330@MVB.SAIC.COM... >aH > > When I try to start system, I have information about low disk space: diskL > > space not available for queue manager to continue.Free up 4400 blocks on > > disk ... > H > Use the procedure in the sytems manager's manual to do a minimum boot.J > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/6017/6017pro_010.html#booting_minF > B/1 at the >>> console prompt should get you to the SYSBOOT> prompt. > I > Once there, do some housekeeping on the system disk. Archive and deletet	 logs etc. G > Check for multiple versions of pagefiles, dumpfiles and other ranndome junk.I > L You will NOT be able to do your housekeeping at the SYSBOOT prompt. You need$ to boot the minimum VMS environment.   SYSBOOT> SET STARTUP_P1 "MIN" 
 SYSBOOT> CONT   I Once the system has finished booting you will need to login as SYSTEM andS THEN do your housekeeping.   -- John Travell" Independent VMS crashdump analyst. john- at - jomatech - dot - comt +44-(0)23-92552229 http://www.jomatech.com/       ---e& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 01/08/2003E   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:07:14 +0100* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>A Subject: Re: My system can not start (VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0)v+ Message-ID: <bgnvkj$lt2@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>i  R <rafal.rybczynski@bankmillennium.pl> wrote in message news:5349330@MVB.SAIC.COM...  K > When I try to start system, I have information about low disk space: disktJ > space not available for queue manager to continue.Free up 4400 blocks on
 > disk ...  F Use the procedure in the sytems manager's manual to do a minimum boot.H http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/6017/6017pro_010.html#booting_minD B/1 at the >>> console prompt should get you to the SYSBOOT> prompt.  Q Once there, do some housekeeping on the system disk. Archive and delete logs etc.6K Check for multiple versions of pagefiles, dumpfiles and other ranndom junk.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:17:35 GMTt& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>A Subject: Re: My system can not start (VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0).8 Message-ID: <o4mviv4j44hl8jhmd64tvhroresa032ff3@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:52 +0100, "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com>n wrote:  M >You will NOT be able to do your housekeeping at the SYSBOOT prompt. You needo% >to boot the minimum VMS environment.b >c >SYSBOOT> SET STARTUP_P1 "MIN" >SYSBOOT> CONT >m  2 I would add another command prior to "CONT" above:   SYSBOOT> set writesysparams 0q  K Otherwise VMS will set their startup to "minimum" permanently (or, at leastd until they run AUTOGEN again).   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:56:59 +0300- From: "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@digita.fi>t Subject: NTP problem8 Message-ID: <5fKXa.4905$HC4.414@reader1.news.jippii.net>  K I've been using NTP quite a long time as a time source on our VMS machines,OK but now when I try to start NTP on our new DS10 it won't start. The commandlH that is not working inside the tcpip$ntp_startup is tcpip enable serviceG ntp. Tcpip$ntp.conf is similar that is  working in other VMS boxes. VMS,I 7.3-1 with patches (nearly all, some latest missing) and tcpip 5.3 ECO 2.i: DTSS disabled and deleteted. Any ideas what may be wrong ?   -Kari- HAUKKA$ @TCPIP$NTP_STARTUP  7 %TCPIP-I-INFO, image SYS$SYSTEM:TCPIP$NTP.EXE installed"  $ %TCPIP-I-INFO, logical names created  / %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP servicen  7 -TCPIP-E-BADVALUE, value Service User_name is incorrecth   -RMS-E-RNF, record not found  / %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP service    -RMS-E-RNF, record not found  / %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP services  7 -TCPIP-E-BADVALUE, value Service User_name is incorrect    -RMS-E-RNF, record not found  / %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP service    -RMS-E-RNF, record not found  - %TCPIP-E-STARTFAIL, failed to start TCPIP$NTPh  ) -TCPIP-E-ENABLERR, error enabling servicex  " HAUKKA$ tcpip sho service ntp/full     Service: NTP   State: Disabled   , Port: 123 Protocol: TCP,UDP Address: 0.0.0.0  ) User_name: not defined Process: TCPIP$NTPt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 02:37:25 +0900 & From: Ishikawa <ishikawa@yk.rim.or.jp>$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates+ Message-ID: <3F2FEB55.C73F6F0@yk.rim.or.jp>>  < I am not sure if this goes out well since my ISP news server is acting a little strange.j  N > I just looked it over, and there's not even the slightest similarity between@ > the DEC BASIC source code and the Microsoft BASIC source code.  4 This is mainly because the Microsoft BASIC needed to4 fit in the very tight memory space of that time, and= for this, the Microsoft basic used tokenizatin/compression of / the source lines in a somewhat paranoia manner.s1 That was a very good point of MS Basic back then.o  ? But aside from it, then it was a bland implementation of BASIC.o+ At that level, there would be a similarity.   * However, to offer a bland BASIC inerpreter3 at in a tight memory space of a PC in those day was + also a good point, and the legend goes thath: the binary worked the first time on the real 8008 to boot.: (The interpreter was debugged using the chip emuator prior	 to that.)p  0 MS Basic I/O iterpreter code used an interesting3 idiom: in/out instruction code was put in register,-/ and the generic I/O handler was called. It uses.2 the instruction in the code to implement basically  while certain condition   do9       input_or_output_on_buffer(...) <-- this is switchedyH   done                                   by the CPU code in the register  8 Since the memory was so tight, saving code space thusly 7 by having a single READ/WRITE routine that is used both 4 for input/output was considered a win. (This was not# thread safe if I recall correctly.)e5 I heard that this code was done by Bill Gates himselft4 and that he was very proud of the code trick and the memory saving. )8 For quite some time, the same idiom continously appeared5 in MS libraries and programs, up to, I think win 3.1..5 (No, maybe I am wrong. Maybe win 3.1 finally did away0 with the non-thread-safe code.)w  : I recall we had potato basic (someone from U. of Idaho did' an implementation) and many variants on  different CPUs back then.    Good ole days? Hard to judge.n       -- h1 int main(void){int j=2003;/*(c)2003 cishikawa. */>3 char t[] ="<CI> @abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.,\n\"";y9 char *i ="g>qtCIuqivb,gCwe\np@.ietCIuqi\"tqkvv is>dnamz";t5 while(*i)((j+=strchr(t,*i++)-(int)t),(j%=sizeof t-1),>* (putchar(t[j])));return 0;}/* under GPL */   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 04:45:33 -0700}' From: st-wong@alumni.cuhk.net (ST Wong)j8 Subject: pls help: install OS on DS10L without console ?= Message-ID: <28073c51.0308050345.34eb3715@posting.google.com>,   Hi, all,  D I've 4 old DS10L without console.  They're connected to an DECserverA 90M.  Although i can access the DECserver using a terminal, but IpC can't access the console of those DS10L through the DECserver 90M. o) Here comes some commands output I tried :s  1 -------------------- cut here -------------------m Local > show nodez  , Node Name        Status       Identification  = SYSTEM2          Unknown      Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 LAT NODE = SYSTEM3          Unknown      Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 LAT NODE = SYSTEM4          Reachable    Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 LAT NODE    Local > show node system2p    B Node: SYSTEM2                           Address: 08-00-2B-86-ED-7DB LAT Protocol:     V5.2                  Data Link Frame Size: 1500  / Identification: Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 LAT NODEt   Node Groups:  0o    4 Service Name      Status     Rating  Identification   ? SYSTEM2           Available      65  Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 LATe SERVICEh   Local > show port 1-2e  ? Port  1: ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@              Server: LAT_00606D93552C"  F Character Size:            8           Input Speed:               9600F Flow Control:            XON           Output Speed:              9600F Parity:                 None           Signal Control:        Disabled7 Stop Bits:           Dynamic                           e  F Access:                Local           Local Switch:              NoneF Backwards Switch:       None           Name:                    PORT_1F Break:                 Local           Session Limit:                4F Forwards Switch:        None           Type:                      AnsiF Default Protocol:        LAT           Default Menu:              NoneF Autolink Timer One:10 Two:10           Dialer Script:             None   Preferred Service: Nonee Authorized Groups:   0 (Current)  Groups:   0   Enabled Characteristics:C Autobaud,  Autoprompt,  Broadcast,  Failover,  Input Flow Control, o Lock, F Loss Notification,  Message Codes,  Output Flow Control,  Verification  ? Port  2:                               Server: LAT_00606D93552Co  F Character Size:            8           Input Speed:               9600F Flow Control:            XON           Output Speed:              9600F Parity:                 None           Signal Control:        Disabled7 Stop Bits:           Dynamic                              F Access:               Remote           Local Switch:              NoneF Backwards Switch:       None           Name:                    PORT_2F Break:                 Local           Session Limit:                4F Forwards Switch:        None           Type:                      AnsiF Default Protocol:     Telnet           Default Menu:              NoneF Autolink Timer One:10 Two:10           Dialer Script:             None   Preferred Service: Nonen Authorized Groups:   0 (Current)  Groups:   0   Enabled Characteristics:C Autobaud,  Autoprompt,  Broadcast,  Failover,  Input Flow Control, u Lock,nF Loss Notification,  Message Codes,  Output Flow Control,  Verification   Local > connect lat system20  1 Local -234- Connection to SYSTEM2 not established              Service disabled  1 -------------------- cut here -------------------r  F The systems were previously installed with Tru64 Unix (by Compaq staffC a long time ago) but the network configuration seems not ready yet.h  F I wonder if it's possible to access their console as I want to install* RedHat on them.  Would anyone please help?  E Sorry that I'm new to Alpha machines and asked some newbie questions.o  
 Thanks a lot." ST Wong,   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 08:05:38 -0500?; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)h< Subject: Re: pls help: install OS on DS10L without console ?3 Message-ID: <HSMMmJQm8I+N@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  g In article <28073c51.0308050345.34eb3715@posting.google.com>, st-wong@alumni.cuhk.net (ST Wong) writes:e
 > Hi, all, > F > I've 4 old DS10L without console.  They're connected to an DECserverC > 90M.  Although i can access the DECserver using a terminal, but IiE > can't access the console of those DS10L through the DECserver 90M.  + > Here comes some commands output I tried :a  @    The easiest way is to temporarily plug your terminal into the?    OPA0 serial port of the DS10L instead of into the DECserver.h  C    It's also possible to establish a connection by running a serialtF    line from the serial port of the DS10L to the DECserver, but that's*    most likely an unecessary complication.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:57:12 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>K Subject: Re: PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processor-8 Message-ID: <3pkviv4h48sbh4vo5j9e8htvnk79aanonr@4ax.com>  7 On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:10:10 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"j <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  
 >jlsue wrote:  >> g: >> On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:37:33 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"! >> <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:G >> V >> >G >> >EVA is still too immature for our environment (healthcare, Cerner).s	 >> >[...] L >> >Not my decision. Lotta folks upstream to get on board with it first (FDA! >> >not being the least of them)., >> ,N >> I do believe that we have Cerner customers running OpenVMS, and using EVA +& >> Business Copy EVA (i.e., snapshot). >> bM >> And, yes, it can be done from a batch job (either with Business Copy - akak- >> EVM - client tools, or with SSSU scripts).t >e= >That leaves the certification and the automation examples....  K Well, even though we do have Cerner sites using controller-based snapshots,aK I am aware that some sites would have to do their own certification to havenH it "blessed" by the FDA.  There's just no way around this that I know ofI for any solution.  Even the volume shadowing operations had to go throughi@ this certification.... at some point in time someone may need toJ bite-the-bullet and do the certification for the FDA.  We can't do much toE motivate that effort, since it is an internal, business-driven issue.-  I As to automation.... Business Copy/EVA and/or SSSU will do the automationoJ from the host.  How would you like to "see it in action"?  You could visit/ a demo center or do a pilot project, I suppose.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:22:15 +0100a0 From: Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam>* Subject: Re: software maintenance contract4 Message-ID: <bgo0gn$d69$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>   Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: > Chris Sharman wrote: >  >> >> Many moons ago... >  >  > [snip] >  >>/ >> I realise I should have noticed the error...n >> > [snip]K > Too much water has passed under the bridge, consider it a lesson learned  C > for the future, you will not see any of the differences in price  J > refunded if you are dealing with a business transaction that dates back G > to Digital, through indirect channels of distribution...  If you are  J > still doing business with your channels, perhaps you can at least press J > them to renew at their cost, rather than retailor discounted pricing to  > make up for it...i  I We've been over-quoted & over-invoiced consistently, up to and including . the current year.s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 06:31:21 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>r* Subject: RE: software maintenance contract9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEJIHLAA.tom@kednos.com>t   >-----Original Message-----h8 >From: Chris Sharman [mailto:chris.sharman@sorry.nospam]' >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 3:22 AMd >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ >Subject: Re: software maintenance contractb >u >n >Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote:  >> Chris Sharman wrote:l >> >>>n >>> Many moons ago...  >> >>	 >> [snip]  >> >>> 0 >>> I realise I should have noticed the error... >>>f	 >> [snip]nK >> Too much water has passed under the bridge, consider it a lesson learnedaC >> for the future, you will not see any of the differences in priceeJ >> refunded if you are dealing with a business transaction that dates backG >> to Digital, through indirect channels of distribution...  If you arebJ >> still doing business with your channels, perhaps you can at least pressJ >> them to renew at their cost, rather than retailor discounted pricing to >> make up for it... >aI >We've been over-quoted & over-invoiced consistently, up to and includinga >the current year.  K How much you can get back, depends on the statute of limitations for fraud,sL counting backwards from the time when you knew or should have known that you were being screwed.h   >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).d@ >Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003 >e --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003c   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:16:04 GMTl& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>* Subject: Re: software maintenance contract8 Message-ID: <6slvivk7o0c73oapmb971i1724jh1g6884@4ax.com>  1 On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:22:15 +0100, Chris Sharmanl# <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> wrote:t    J >We've been over-quoted & over-invoiced consistently, up to and including  >the current year.  E It's not entirely clear to me yet, but are you saying that you have atI contract with HP Customer Support (i.e., you call HP to get support), butsH purchased through a partner?  Or is your contract with the partner's own CS-like organization?t  H If the former, then you should be able to contact the HP CS through yourJ normal telephone channels and open a case number concerning your contract.G And if you have a problem with the partner, this should be noted in the J case at some point in time - HP is serious about customer support quality.  C If, on the other hand, your issue is with the partner's own CS-likeaJ organization, you could try to log a problem case with them to see if thatA helps.  You may also still be able to complain to HP to have them $ investigate this partner's behavior.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:26:21 +0100" From: "Rolona" <nospam@nospam.com> Subject: VMS License auditsp> Message-ID: <niOXa.4093$dL4.1949@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>  A Anyone know where I can get a license audit done for VMS servers?u   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:59:12 +0100a* From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]> Subject: Re: VMS License audits ' Message-ID: <bgogjt$e7o$1@lore.csc.com>   
 Rolona wrote:t > C > Anyone know where I can get a license audit done for VMS servers?   G We carry this out on behalf of our clients, there are agencies employednG by HP (nee Compaq) in the UK providing this service as well. We do thisiC prior to providing contract services as we can act effectively as atF broker for their services at a global level. Clients sometimes find it< surprising that we toe the party line as hard as the vendor.  F It is quite involved, understanding the licence types and how and whenA they were used on systems, making sure there are no duplications.rG Tracing the original paperwork makes life interesting, as does tying upcE upgrade rights paperwork to the original licence, not necessarily theIA original system. A simple LICENSE LIST is totally insufficient toeD determine system compliance, but an essential part of the process to check for duplications.s  G As Larry says, lost paperwork complicates things, but original purchases$ orders showing part numbers do help.  G Remember, HP, Compaq before them and Digital before that can trace eachcC licence, but it is up to you to prove you are entitled to use them.s -- d? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesi nclews at csc dot comf   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 09:48:03 -0500t- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e Subject: Re: VMS License audits 3 Message-ID: <X9NFMPgAsW0x@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  c In article <niOXa.4093$dL4.1949@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, "Rolona" <nospam@nospam.com> writes:eC > Anyone know where I can get a license audit done for VMS servers?o  - It depends on what you mean by license audit.e  I Any technically competent consultant (and there are several in the UK whooI frequent this group) can tell you whether your licenses are being used inmM accordance with their terms, by checking PAK usage against license paperwork.m  K On the other hand, if you have lost your license paperwork, justifying that K against HP paperwork requires contacting HP and might be difficult (if yours* paperwork is in disarray, imagine theirs).   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:38:35 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>s Subject: RE: VMS License auditsn9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEJMHLAA.tom@kednos.com>   D 1-800-277-8988 x 14415  may still work for looking up licenses based on serial number   >-----Original Message----- 2 >From: Nic Clews [mailto:sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]]' >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 7:59 AMn >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  >Subject: Re: VMS License audits >r >s >Rolona wrote: >> rD >> Anyone know where I can get a license audit done for VMS servers? >/H >We carry this out on behalf of our clients, there are agencies employedH >by HP (nee Compaq) in the UK providing this service as well. We do thisD >prior to providing contract services as we can act effectively as aG >broker for their services at a global level. Clients sometimes find itr= >surprising that we toe the party line as hard as the vendor.  >.G >It is quite involved, understanding the licence types and how and when-B >they were used on systems, making sure there are no duplications.H >Tracing the original paperwork makes life interesting, as does tying upF >upgrade rights paperwork to the original licence, not necessarily theB >original system. A simple LICENSE LIST is totally insufficient toE >determine system compliance, but an essential part of the process to. >check for duplications. > H >As Larry says, lost paperwork complicates things, but original purchase% >orders showing part numbers do help.a > H >Remember, HP, Compaq before them and Digital before that can trace eachD >licence, but it is up to you to prove you are entitled to use them. >-- @ >Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences >nclews at csc dot com >a >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). @ >Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003 >i --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:28:38 +0100" From: "Rolona" <nospam@nospam.com> Subject: Re: VMS License auditsi> Message-ID: <gZQXa.5318$dL4.3495@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>    Any contact details for a quote?  7 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in messagee! news:bgogjt$e7o$1@lore.csc.com...  > Rolona wrote:t > >oE > > Anyone know where I can get a license audit done for VMS servers?  >tI > We carry this out on behalf of our clients, there are agencies employediI > by HP (nee Compaq) in the UK providing this service as well. We do thishE > prior to providing contract services as we can act effectively as atH > broker for their services at a global level. Clients sometimes find it> > surprising that we toe the party line as hard as the vendor. >tH > It is quite involved, understanding the licence types and how and whenC > they were used on systems, making sure there are no duplications.uI > Tracing the original paperwork makes life interesting, as does tying upuG > upgrade rights paperwork to the original licence, not necessarily thetC > original system. A simple LICENSE LIST is totally insufficient to/F > determine system compliance, but an essential part of the process to > check for duplications./ >wI > As Larry says, lost paperwork complicates things, but original purchase8& > orders showing part numbers do help. > I > Remember, HP, Compaq before them and Digital before that can trace each.E > licence, but it is up to you to prove you are entitled to use them.e > --A > Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesm > nclews at csc dot comt   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:05:47 GMTn- From: "labadie" <tonari_no_tottoro@127.0.0.1>u Subject: Re: Web Apps for VMSd1 Message-ID: <vzJXa.1425$qb2.200@news.cpqcorp.net>t  G "Carlc Internet Services" <cc@nospamming-to-carlc.com> wrote in messageo+ news:U4dWa.416$kl5.23885@news.uswest.net...w >t >nH > I've messed with MySQL a bit on OpenVMS. > version, but requires a few+ other things I didn't want to preload (like1	 > opensslr > older version).n  J May be there is a weakness in openssl (I do not know) but Mysql comes with openssl.   RegardsF   Grard   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 03 18:51:03 +0200a) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)g Subject: Re: Web Apps for VMS ) Message-ID: <sQ+vcxHsiGC0@elias.decus.ch>l  a In article <vzJXa.1425$qb2.200@news.cpqcorp.net>, "labadie" <tonari_no_tottoro@127.0.0.1> writes:  > I > "Carlc Internet Services" <cc@nospamming-to-carlc.com> wrote in messageh- > news:U4dWa.416$kl5.23885@news.uswest.net...t >> >>I >> I've messed with MySQL a bit on OpenVMS. > version, but requires a few - > other things I didn't want to preload (liket
 >> openssl >> older version). > L > May be there is a weakness in openssl (I do not know) but Mysql comes with
 > openssl. >   ? I got a mail from HP last Thursday about a weakness in OpenSSL:P    SOURCE:  HEWLETT-PACKARD COMPANY(          Software Security Response Team  2 REFERENCE:  CAN-2003-0131, CAN-2003-0147, VU997481   PROBLEM SUMMARY?? A potential vulnerability in OpenSSL may allow local and remoteo= users to obtain the server's private encryption key. Also, any= additional vulnerability in OpenSSL may allow remote users to-2 perform an unauthorized RSA private key operation.   VERSIONS IMPACTEDr> All currently supported versions of HP OpenVMS including V6.3,$ V7.1, V7.2x, V7.3x running Open SSL.      m
 RESOLUTION@ The resolutions for these vulnerabilities are included in HP SSLG for OpenVMS V1.1 kit.                                               =20   =20  < This kit is available for download from the OpenVMS security0 web site and it includes a buildable source kit:/ http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/security.htmlO  < HP SSL Version 1.1 for OpenVMS Alpha kit is based on OpenSSL 0.9.6g, is now available from:/ http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ssl/r    6 SUPPORT: For further information, contact HP Services.  7 SUBSCRIBE: To subscribe to automatically receive futurep< Security Advisories from the Software Security Response Team via electronic mail:5 http://www.support.compaq.com/patches/mail-list.shtmld   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 03 18:49:09 +0200t) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)-/ Subject: Re: [Change topic -> OT] Pence/Pennies0) Message-ID: <R3uYqfpt7CXd@elias.decus.ch>r  g In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-jNscuJyggQQD@localhost>, "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> writes:oG > On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 08:03:09 UTC, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) w > wrote: >  > <snip> > F >> > Nope, your memory's fading.  The florin was the 2 shilling piece.F >> > 2 shillings and sixpence was the "half crown" (presumably at some: >> > point there was a 5 shilling piece called the crown). >> >  G >> Yep, guilty of brain fade there. The crown was real, although for meh6 >> only as a commemorative piece on Churchill's death: >> u+ >> http://www.24carat.co.uk/1965crown.html h > H > My mum's still got my Coronation crown in its presentation case. Gives >  my age away :-) >  :-)e   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.430 ************************