1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 06 Aug 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 432       Contents:* Re: Advance server, alerter messages, 7.3aA Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer * Re: Gaining control of build dependency...* RE: Gaining control of build dependency...* Re: Gaining control of build dependency...- Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer $ Licence manager and class scheduling Looking for NBL  Re: mail installation files 8 Re: My system can not start (VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0)8 Re: My system can not start (VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0) Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: NTP problem  Re: NTP problem  Re: NTP problem  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates 3 Re: pls help: install OS on DS10L without console ? 3 Re: pls help: install OS on DS10L without console ? B Re: PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processorB Re: PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processor2 Server consolidation & VMS - "Back to the Future"!6 Re: Server consolidation & VMS - "Back to the Future"!6 Re: Server consolidation & VMS - "Back to the Future"!6 Re: Server consolidation & VMS - "Back to the Future"!3 Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP F [OT] Re stopped clocks being right twice a day (was Re: HP FUDBusting), [OT] The Six Stages of Field Service Support0 Re: [OT] The Six Stages of Field Service Support  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:47:58 -0400$ From: "PEN" <paul.nuneznosp@mhp.com>3 Subject: Re: Advance server, alerter messages, 7.3a , Message-ID: <bgr7vg$m9l$1@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>  	 Hi Brian,   L How are you disabling the Alerter service and is it remaining disabled after/ the Advanced Server restarts ($ ADMIN SH SERV)?   K Are you sure these are messages generated by the Alerter?  Typically, Alert H messages are only sent to the users/computers listed in the 'alertnames' list.   K Also, probably worthwhile to upgrade to ECO1 (if you're not there already). 2 It's available from the public eco web/ftp site...   Paul   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:43:32 +0200 & From: Bob Marcan <bob.marcan@aster.si>J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer0 Message-ID: <bk2Ya.901$2B6.224100@news.siol.net>   Alan E. Feldman wrote: ...  >  > E > On the general question in this thread: I think that PCs/Macs would ) > not have gotten so popular without GUI. * Not GUI, GUI with applications: Office ... >  > [rant mode OFF:] >  > Disclaimer: JMHO > Alan E. Feldman      --  A   Bob Marcan                             mailto:bob.marcan@snt.si A   Aster^H^H...HermesPlus^H^H^H...S&T   mailto:bob.marcan@aster.si A   Nade Ovcakove 1                       tel:    +386 (1) 5894-329 A   1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia                      http://www.snt.si    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Aug 2003 07:46:54 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 3 Subject: Re: Gaining control of build dependency... 3 Message-ID: <0+b5R8Z5KQKs@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <4ea25e04.0308051640.153088e4@posting.google.com>, brendan@scanoptics.com.au (Brendan Tregear) writes:   ' > Sorry for the long post... Any ideas?   +    Can't you do this with nested MMS files?       descrip.mms: 3   local_include_file DEPENDS_ON global_include_file       RUN UTILITY COM FILE !      MMS/DESCRIPTION=descrip2.mms       descrip2.mms:.   my_source_file DEPENDS_ON local_include_file   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 06:31:58 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 3 Subject: RE: Gaining control of build dependency... 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEKPHLAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message----- 9 >From: Brendan Tregear [mailto:brendan@scanoptics.com.au] ' >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:29 PM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com4 >Subject: Re: Gaining control of build dependency... >  >  >Hi Tom, > 0 >Thanks for your reply. To answer your question: > " >> Then you modify B such that youJ >> need new constants.  Are you now going to create a new local L2 derived
 >> from what?  > ( >I would create a new L2 derived from G. > = >> And if B only needs these new constants then why put it in " >> the include file, why not in B? > I > Yes, I agree with you. The problem is this is a defence system that has D >been running for 15 years. It is out of the scope of my project to 
 >be movingE >constants around to different include files. I have been tasked with ; >modifying the build process. So I am stuck with all these   >constants residing  >in one include file.   D So you are not modifying source files?  Do you expect many rules forC generating the local include files?  Can you increase the number of B include files, or is this rigidly fixed?  This under CMS?  Can youC change the suffix on the include file names.  If so, then you could H have different rules from the same global include file.  Taking this oneC step further,  if the new constants were in a new include file, you J conditionally include it by use of a preprocessor VARIANT string for those source files that require it.    >  >  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). @ >Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003 >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:31:17 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>3 Subject: Re: Gaining control of build dependency... 8 Message-ID: <o6b2jvgmo34selni85gt0hlftfuccidmgk@4ax.com>  4 On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:59:16 +0930, "Brendan Tregear"" <brendan@scanoptics.com.au> wrote:   > I > Yes, I agree with you. The problem is this is a defence system that has M >been running for 15 years. It is out of the scope of my project to be moving E >constants around to different include files. I have been tasked with M >modifying the build process. So I am stuck with all these constants residing  >in one include file.  >  >   J I would be very careful in making any changes to any independent file, andF not rebuilding all of the "dependent" source code files that reference them.   J Even adding a new constant is a potential for a bug to show up (hell, evenF adding a comment ;-), and you neve know when you might need to rebuildI those other programs under a stressful situation (e.g., an outage of some B kind).  That is not the time to find out that a bug was introduced
 somewhere.  G Isn't easier to, rather than use compiled-in parameters/constants, have H them read in from a data file?  Then you don't need to recompile at all.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:49:49 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 6 Subject: Re: Help adding a larger drive to Alphaserver' Message-ID: <3F3050AD.241B1D6E@fsi.net>    Carl Perkins wrote:  > e > In article <iaT$fAVgJuL6@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.aspm.encompasserve.org writes... ^ > }In article <3F2F1360.ECE1A9BA@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: > }>H > }> ...but the implementation is a bit different. The VMS equivalent ofK > }> stderr cannot be redirected by 2>..., input cannot be redirected using K > }> "<", and ">>" cannot be used to append to an existing file (at, least, L > }> it doesn't work for me on V7.3-1). The following sequence would emulate% > }> some of those features, however:  > } J > }   Just like moving between eunichs shells.  Ever try 2> in csh?  To myH > }   knowledge you can redirect 1 in csh, and you can add 2 to the pathG > }   chosen for 1, but you can't separately redirect 2.  So I use ksh.  > } E > }   As for < and >>, I'm quite sure I've used them in DCL, but I'll E > }   have to run off and see if I can come up with working examples. E > }   I've often had trouble with commands in any shell that wouldn't 0 > }   work with < the way I thought they should. > } 
 > }> $ PIPE - . > }>      (DEFINE/USER SYS$INPUT LOGIN.COM ; - > }>      TYPE SYS$INPUT) | - 6 > }>      (DEFINE/USER SYS$ERRROR SEARCH_ERROR.LIS ; -$ > }>      SEARCH SYS$PIPE "SET DEF") > }  > } C > }   The following has the same result on my 7.2-1 system, I tried E > }   it with search strings that were and were not in login.com, and 9 > }   when seach_error.lis did and did not already exist:  > } 
 > }   $pipe - . > }       (DEFINE/USER SYS$INPUT LOGIN.COM ; - > }       TYPE SYS$INPUT) | - 7 > }       SEARCH SYS$PIPE "SET DEF" 2> SEARCH_ERROR.LIS  > }  > E > AS has been pointed out, this is covered in the help. From the help  > on V7.2-1: > $ >        o  Input/output redirection > F >           A command sequence can redirect its SYS$INPUT, SYS$OUTPUT,E >           or SYS$ERROR to a file during execution of the command as  >           follows. > " >           To redirect SYS$INPUT: > ? >              PIPE    command-sequence < redirected-input-file  > # >           To redirect SYS$OUTPUT:  > @ >              PIPE    command-sequence > redirected-output-file > " >           To redirect SYS$ERROR: > @ >              PIPE    command-sequence 2> redirected-error-file > G >           A pipeline-segment command can also redirect its SYS$INPUT, E >           SYS$OUTPUT, or SYS$ERROR. However, SYS$OUTPUT redirection F >           is allowed only for the last pipeline-segment command, andI >           SYS$INPUT redirection is allowed only for the first pipeline-  >           segment command.  A Maybe that's why I didn't get it to work the way I wanted - I was ? attempting to use redirection in a manner inconsistent with the  documentation.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:12:01 -0400  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer5 Message-ID: <1030805200943.1951A-100000@Ives.egh.com>   , On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, David J. Dachtera wrote:   > GreyCloud wrote: > >  > > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > > >  > > > John Smith wrote:  > > > > 7 > > > > "GreyCloud" <cumulus@mist.com> wrote in message * > > > > news:3F2C2383.12F42F8A@mist.com... > > > > > leslie wrote:  > > > > > > 4 > > > > > > My sigmonster thanks you for that entry. > > > > > > J > > > > > > Back before the Great Tech Wreck, people asked me why I didn't > > > > want to M > > > > > > work on Windows, and many of them had worked on VMS, so they knew  > > > > the K > > > > > > difference between the quality of VMS and the crapware shoveled  > > > > out from+ > > > > > > One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA.  > > > > > > H > > > > > > My usual reply was that my blood pressure would get too high > > > > having to 4 > > > > > > deal with the crapware 100% of the time. > > > > > > 	 > > > > > ? > > > > > I think that was the cause of my High blood pressure. D > > > > > Everything worked well and was easily predictable with VMS' > > > > > programming.  Not so with M$.  > > > > 3 > > > > VMS - Let's you sleep nights and stay calm.  > > > > % > > > > sorry Maxwell House coffee...  > > > N > > > I recently saw an ad referring to M$ Exchange as a warm, comfortable ...N > > > something, can't quite recall what - just remember the reference to warmM > > > fuzzies. I wanted to find the idiot author and find out what he was on, ! > > > and where I could get some.  > > >  > > @ > > You don't suppose that these new ads about ADDL has anything= > > to do with M$?  Then Paxil or Xanax is probably what he's  > > on.  > $ > ADDL'd? Yeah - I'd believe that... >   < ADDL2 or ADDL3?  Or just let Macro-32 figure it out from the number of args?   : (ADD Longword is the only ADDL on-topic in this newsgroup,: AFAIK, as if that matters anymore...  IOW, what's "ADDL"?)   --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:44:43 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer' Message-ID: <3F304F7B.A6150C8D@fsi.net>    John Travell wrote:  > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3F2F10F3.EA6FB801@fsi.net... % > > VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > > > L > > > In article <+hcIxEp8ceeq@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul > Sture) writes:= > > > >In article <3F2D47C7.8040902@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward  > <deanw@rdrop.com> writes:  > > > >> Paul Sture wrote:  > > > >>> This _should_ be easy.	 > > > >>>  > > > >>> If you have:	 > > > >>> ! > > > >>> a.txt b.txt c.txt d.txt 	 > > > >>> L > > > >>> Click on a.txt and hold shift down whilst clicking on c.txt and it* > > > >>> will select a.txt, b.txt, c.txt.	 > > > >>> + > > > >>> Only want a.txt, c.txt and d.txt? 	 > > > >>> J > > > >>> Click on a.txt, hold down CTRL then click on c.txt then click on > > > >>> d.txt. > > > >>  > > > >> Assume what he had was: > > > >> > > > >> a.jpg   f.jpg   k.jpg > > > >> b.jpg   g.jpg   l.jpg > > > >> c.jpg   h.jpg   m.jpg > > > >> d.jpg   i.jpg   n.mpg > > > >> e.jpg   j.jpg   o.jpg > > > >>N > > > >> And he wanted to select b.jpg to n.jpg inclusive. If he clicks b.jpg,N > > > >> then SHIFT-click n.jpg, he'll get b,c,d,g,h,i,l,m, and n- leaving outG > > > >> e,f,j, and k. That's the way Windows "works" when dealing with 
 > multiple > > > >> columns of files. > > > >> > > > > L > > > >Aha, the light dawns. About the first job I do to a Windows system isN > > > >to switch Explorer to List view, so I get 1 column, plus the file sizes > > > >and dates.  > > > * > > > How do you configure that?  I run IE > > # > > AH! The light dawns brighter...  > > 4 > > Run WhineBloze Exploder, not Interhose Exploder. > >  > > How? > > ? > > Right-click on the Start button, select the Explore option.  > >  > Still big-time OT:-)H > Does anyone want to know how to set 'explore' to be the default action > instead of 'open' ? F > I can give a Win2k example, you would have to translate it for other > billyware editions.   B My question is this: in WhineBloze Exploder, when a directory withF sub.'s is highlighted, is there a keyboard shortcut to expand the list2 of subs without having to mouse and click the "+"?   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:47:10 -0400  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer5 Message-ID: <1030805201757.1951B-100000@Ives.egh.com>   " On 4 Aug 2003, Carl Perkins wrote: [...]   C > Dosn't anybody ever actually look at stuff anymore? You know - do I > something like what the name of the program in this particular instance F > is? Be an explorer? Anybody? (Other than me, I mean.) All this stuffI > is in there, and it is not hidden from you - all you have to do is just L > look around. Sure there are some things that are convoluted and/or burriedE > multiple levels down in places you'd not expect it to be, and other J > things that you just can't change at all - but there are a lot of thingsI > that are easy to change. So change them, if you want to - but the first J > step is to actually look at the thing to find out what is right there in8 > front of you so that you know what is easy to change.    [...]   @ Carl - please refrain from attempting to inject sanity into this thread!   @ One thing to avoid at all costs is trying to do this stuff while@ people are leaning over your shoulders, waiting for you to "fix"
 something.  : They'll be muttering things like "I thought you understood> computers" and "How much do they pay you?"  You'll be thinking> (at first), "I have twenty years VMS experience.  How hard can> it be?"  Later, you'll be thinking "Should I unplug this thing> before I hurl it through the window?  Should I open the windowA first, or will the sound of shattering glass be more satisfying?"   < Treat it more like "Adventure".  Look for little gotcha's in< the descriptions, like "Hey, this is a little maze of twisty? passages, all different, but the last room was a maze of little = twisty passages, all different.  I wonder if each room always = has the same description?", and pretty soon you'll be drawing A a connection matrix between the various permutations of (L)ittle,  (M)aze and (T)wisty.  D How anyone every discovered the functions of control/shift/alt-click= in Windows (not Internet) Explorer is a mystery to me though. ; I've had the same problems trying to drag multiple files as C Brian had.  Felt like the sorcerer's apprentice as they multiplied. ; Fortunately, there were always few enough files that it was   easier just to do one at a time.  ; I know I've read about the magical uses of modifier keys on = mouse-clicks in various "Windows Hints" articles, but haven't < needed to use them often enough to memorize them.  I imagine; they are in "Help" somewhere, but somehow "Help" seems slow ; and awkward to use, compared to VMS Help.  It takes several = seconds to load even on my 800Mhz PC, then it always wants to 5 build its indexes, and then you have to click through : several tabs and options before you get to the place where9 you can type in "mouse shortcuts" or whatever.  Why can't : tree-structured help just drop down from the "help" button: on the window's title bar in any application?  (This would: be a good feature in X-windows as well...  Most if not all8 X apps do HELP just like windows.  E.G. DECterm fires up= Bookreader when you select "Overview" on the "Help" drop-down  menu.)  9 Well, back to playing with my brand-new PowerBook.  (BTW, 9 the terminal application emulates a VT well enough to run = TECO in screen mode, I was pleasantly surprised to discover.)    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:54:27 +0000 (UTC)7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer/ Message-ID: <bgpn4j$nt1$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>   Z In article <3f2fed1e$1@cpns1.saic.com>, Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes: !Bradford J. Hamilton wrote: !snip!R !> (Of course, not every MGM/PHB *really* feels this way - I know of an owner of aO !> small business who thinks that Word is a POS, and laments the loss of WP for  !> VMS.)	:-) ! J !Beg pardon?  Why would he lament a loss that doesn't exist?  WP is still H !available for VMS with both character-cell and X-Window support.  I've ; !got a recently purchased copy running my system right now.  !    Hi Mark,  M After my original post, I Google'd some links which led me to believe that WP L was still available - it may be, but AFAIK, not from Corel.  Is it a currentK version of WP, or is it WP 5.1?  What kind of support is available for it?  7 Please post a link or two that I might be able to view.    Thanks,  Brad   !Mark Berryman !    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:39:21 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer' Message-ID: <3F304E39.ACFF60C9@fsi.net>    Bob Koehler wrote: > W > In article <00A23E47.6E97151A@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  > > C > > Left click, right click, CTRL-click, shift-click, ALT-click,...  > >  > > Where is the intuitive?  > $ >    click, click, click, click, ... >   >    tick, tick, tick, tick, ...   *BLAM*  *BLAM*  *BLAM*  *BLAM*  > Befuddled, gun-toting, would-be Windows user going "postal"...   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:37:51 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer' Message-ID: <3F304DDF.3FBE94A1@fsi.net>    John Santos wrote: > . > On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, David J. Dachtera wrote: >  > > GreyCloud wrote: > > >   > > > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > > > >  > > > > John Smith wrote: 	 > > > > > 9 > > > > > "GreyCloud" <cumulus@mist.com> wrote in message , > > > > > news:3F2C2383.12F42F8A@mist.com... > > > > > > leslie wrote: 
 > > > > > > > 6 > > > > > > > My sigmonster thanks you for that entry.
 > > > > > > > L > > > > > > > Back before the Great Tech Wreck, people asked me why I didn't > > > > > want to O > > > > > > > work on Windows, and many of them had worked on VMS, so they knew 
 > > > > > the M > > > > > > > difference between the quality of VMS and the crapware shoveled  > > > > > out from- > > > > > > > One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA. 
 > > > > > > > J > > > > > > > My usual reply was that my blood pressure would get too high > > > > > having to 6 > > > > > > > deal with the crapware 100% of the time.
 > > > > > > >  > > > > > > A > > > > > > I think that was the cause of my High blood pressure. F > > > > > > Everything worked well and was easily predictable with VMS) > > > > > > programming.  Not so with M$. 	 > > > > > 5 > > > > > VMS - Let's you sleep nights and stay calm. 	 > > > > > ' > > > > > sorry Maxwell House coffee...  > > > > P > > > > I recently saw an ad referring to M$ Exchange as a warm, comfortable ...P > > > > something, can't quite recall what - just remember the reference to warmO > > > > fuzzies. I wanted to find the idiot author and find out what he was on, # > > > > and where I could get some.  > > > >  > > > B > > > You don't suppose that these new ads about ADDL has anything? > > > to do with M$?  Then Paxil or Xanax is probably what he's 	 > > > on.  > > & > > ADDL'd? Yeah - I'd believe that... > >  > > > ADDL2 or ADDL3?  Or just let Macro-32 figure it out from the > number of args?  > < > (ADD Longword is the only ADDL on-topic in this newsgroup,< > AFAIK, as if that matters anymore...  IOW, what's "ADDL"?)  ! Merriam Webster says it this way:     &                      Main Entry: addle#                      Function: verb G                      Inflected Form(s): addled; addling  /'ad-li[ng], "                      'a-d&l-i[ng]/%                      Date: circa 1712 B                      transitive senses : to throw into confusion : CONFOUND(                      intransitive senses1                      1 : to become rotten : SPOIL ,                      2 : to become confused   C Bit of a bad pun, I'm afraid... (Chide me for my punmanship, if you  must.)   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:27:45 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer2 Message-ID: <FPScncQONM9PHq2iXTWJlg@metrocast.net>  D "Bradford J. Hamilton" <hamilton@Encompasserve.org> wrote in message) news:bgo5rr$bgk$1@grandcanyon.binc.net...    ...   I > I too, share some of Brian's frustration; in spite of the fact that the  goodL > folks at XEROX PARC told me that this is a more "intuitive" and easier way toF > deal with a complex machine, I still found that the only way to help myselfG > navigate around a Windows box was to click everything in sight, every 	 which way K > I could think of, and then note (and try to reproduce) the sequence(s) of H > key/mouse clicks that did the task which I intended to do!  Talk about feeling ! > like a laboratory animal... :-)   L Though I'm hardly an interface expert, the thought crosses my mind that partK of the problem people like this crew may have with Windows may come from an  excess of experience.   B When faced with a 'computer', most people here (unlike the averageH non-computer-literate person approaching a PC for the first time) likelyI feel that they should be able to make sense of it in the context of other K computers with which they're familiar.  At least at the GUI level, however, J a PC isn't much like that at all (well, I never used VMS's GUIs, so peopleB who have might find themselves at least a bit less frustrated upon encountering a PC).   H It may be sort of like what hopping into a car would be like and findingE that none of the familiar controls existed:  I expect I'd be somewhat J frustrated because I'd expect to be able to sit down and take off down theD road (perhaps a bit slowly, as occurred the first time I encounteredK right-side-of-the-road driving - starting by attempting to extricate myself J from the center of London) rather than have to figure out what the hell toJ do to accelerate, brake, steer - or even just get the engine started (everG encounter a car which refused to crank unless the clutch was depressed? . that can throw one for a loop for a while...).  F Neophytes may find PCs considerably more approachable than we do.  AndI that's likely a good thing.  Of course, the question then becomes how the I world, after it becomes computer-literate (in the PC sense, anyway) would J react to a major *change* in the interface:  would they be as crotchety as
 we often are?    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:18:14 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer0 Message-ID: <00A23F73.64211D84@SendSpamHere.ORG>  f In article <6hsviv4n7d38isf0ddkeuvhgnq4il3e9pe@4ax.com>, John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk> writes:M >On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:47:05 +0100, "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com> wrote:  > I >>Even if it has been renamed, you _must_ somethere on your screen have a  >>(cringe) 'My Computer' icon.M >>Find it, then (assuming you are not using a left hand mouse) RIGHT click on  >>the icon.  > I >Even easier is to hold down the "Windows" key and press E (for Explore).    "Windows" key?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------   Date: 6 Aug 2003 07:39:15 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer3 Message-ID: <BWx+nRob86qc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <FPScncQONM9PHq2iXTWJlg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > N > Though I'm hardly an interface expert, the thought crosses my mind that partM > of the problem people like this crew may have with Windows may come from an  > excess of experience.   E    Counter-example:  Mac OS.  Unlike Windows it is GUI based, easy to D    use, AND CONSISTENT.  If not running Office for Mac, it even does#    what you ask it when you ask it.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:13:56 +0100 + From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk> 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer8 Message-ID: <npr1jvkour18ab2uoqtkfhv047pohi5hb0@4ax.com>  C On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:18:14 GMT, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:   g >In article <6hsviv4n7d38isf0ddkeuvhgnq4il3e9pe@4ax.com>, John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk> writes: N >>On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:47:05 +0100, "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com> wrote: >>J >>>Even if it has been renamed, you _must_ somethere on your screen have a >>>(cringe) 'My Computer' icon. N >>>Find it, then (assuming you are not using a left hand mouse) RIGHT click on >>>the icon. >>J >>Even easier is to hold down the "Windows" key and press E (for Explore). >  >"Windows" key?   D They are between the Ctrl and Alt keys on my keyboard.  Along with aF "right-click menu" shortcut, they constitute the extra 3 keys when theI standard PC kb went from 102 to 105 keys.  (I couldn't be very precise on  the time-frame.)  G Much as I would prefer not to have use a PC, it is a necessary evil.  I D figure I may as well make life as easy as possible, so I upgrade theF hardware and software from time to time and spend less time banging my$ forehead on the table as a result...   --   John   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Aug 2003 07:40:42 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer3 Message-ID: <gKb7OGVedTYQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <00A23F73.64211D84@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  >  > "Windows" key?  @    The one on the new "Windows" keyboard, where ALT or Option orD    something else should be.  Except that it often ends up placed so1    closely to SHIFT that it gets hit by accident.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:34:45 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer' Message-ID: <3F312015.49392377@fsi.net>    Bob Koehler wrote: > W > In article <00A23F73.64211D84@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  > >  > > "Windows" key? > B >    The one on the new "Windows" keyboard, where ALT or Option orF >    something else should be.  Except that it often ends up placed so3 >    closely to SHIFT that it gets hit by accident.    HMMPPPHH!!! Tell me 'bout it!   B The PC I built for my wife four years ago has an AT-style, 102-keyE keyboard that I bought back in the early 90's. It's a Honeywell, very 1 similar in appearance and feel to DEC's PCXAL-AA.   F When I got my first look at W/95, none of the machines the company wasG installing it on had the 104-key keyboards (with the BillyBull nonsense @ keys). Took me a long time to get used to the reduced space bar.  B The EVO laptops we just got at work are another story entirely, of course, keyboard-wise.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:15:04 -0400< From: "Peter Weaver" <WeaverConsultingServices@sympatico.ca>4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer9 Message-ID: <bgr9ia$qtvlu$1@ID-141708.news.uni-berlin.de>    David J. Dachtera wrote: >...5 > My question is this: in WhineBloze Exploder, when a  directory with8 > sub.'s is highlighted, is there a keyboard shortcut to expand the list 4 > of subs without having to mouse and click the "+"?  4 The Right Arrow does that, here are a few more keys;   Press                 To> END                   Display the bottom of the active window.; HOME                  Display the top of the active window. 6 NUM LOCK+ASTERISK     Display all subfolders under the selected folder.   on numeric keypad (*) : NUM LOCK+PLUS SIGN    Display the contents of the selected folder.    on numeric keypad (+) 3 NUM LOCK+MINUS SIGN   Collapse the selected folder.    on numeric keypad (-) 8 LEFT ARROW            Collapse current selection if it's" expanded, or select parent folder.7 RIGHT ARROW           Display current selection if it's % collapsed, or select first subfolder.      --   Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc.  Canadian VAR for CHARON-VAX ; www.weaverconsulting.ca (currently not working, but will be ; when JF returns from wherever he is or when Curtis gets his  server running)    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:25:35 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer' Message-ID: <3F312BFF.6B938FE1@fsi.net>    Peter Weaver wrote:g >  > David J. Dachtera wrote: > >...7 > > My question is this: in WhineBloze Exploder, when aa > directory with: > > sub.'s is highlighted, is there a keyboard shortcut to > expand the liste6 > > of subs without having to mouse and click the "+"? > 6 > The Right Arrow does that, here are a few more keys; >  > Press                 To@ > END                   Display the bottom of the active window.= > HOME                  Display the top of the active window.e8 > NUM LOCK+ASTERISK     Display all subfolders under the > selected folder. >   on numeric keypad (*) < > NUM LOCK+PLUS SIGN    Display the contents of the selected	 > folder.p >   on numeric keypad (+)h5 > NUM LOCK+MINUS SIGN   Collapse the selected folder.n >   on numeric keypad (-)I: > LEFT ARROW            Collapse current selection if it's$ > expanded, or select parent folder.9 > RIGHT ARROW           Display current selection if it'sa' > collapsed, or select first subfolder.d  ' Excellent!! *MUCH* faster than mousing!   @ ...and this is documented ...where? I'd like to spread the word.   -- a David J. Dachtera0 dba DJE Systems. http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/M   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Aug 2003 09:44:52 -0700 ) From: jbrankin@ntlworld.com (Jim Brankin)s- Subject: Licence manager and class schedulings= Message-ID: <863f19d6.0308060844.24e70849@posting.google.com>T  A I have a suggestion for an enhancement to VMS. How about coupling 0 class based scheduling with the licence manager.  @ The object of the exercise would be to licence software to use aE certain percentage of the resources of a machine. It seems to me thathE this would encourage server consolidation and that this would benefit2 VMS.  E The cost of software licences frequently varies with the CPU power of F the machine, sometimes with the amount of memory and almost never with" the capacity of the I/O subsystem.  C It seems to me that this works against VMS, which can walk and chewo@ gum at the same time. You can run more than one application on aF single machine whereas in the Microsoft and Linux worlds that is rare.B But if you run two apps on the one machine you pay licence fees asB though each application had the machine to itself. This encourages4 folk to use the one machine / one application model.  C Now, if you could buy a licence which said that an application willnD use only half the CPU power of the machine then the problem would beC solved. It should be possible for the licence manager and the classoF based sheduler to co-operate to provide this. Just add the schecdulingE  class and the percentage to the information specified in the licencemF and have the licence checking routine check that the user id is in the= right scheduling class and that the percentage of the machine & available to that class is acceptable.     What do you think?   Jim       L ----------------------------------------------------------------------------.                          Pure Personal Opinion  8                        brankin at nildram dot co dot uk L ----------------------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 15:32:48 +0100 + From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk>  Subject: Looking for NBL8 Message-ID: <i942jvk5jv1r8m4o67s51e067cosoh1qhu@4ax.com>  > As subject - need to be able to send attachments via UCX SMTP.  K Arne's site appears to have disappeared, and it looks like it never made it  to any Freeware distribution.    TIA.   -- . John   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:05:35 GMT 3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)l$ Subject: Re: mail installation files1 Message-ID: <PW7Ya.1567$TH3.814@news.cpqcorp.net>   q In article <0DAjgfAUqRzY@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:gt >In article <newscache$38j5jh$l08$1@news.emea.compuware.com>, "Axel Haringa" <axel.haringa@nl.compuware.com> writes: >./ >> %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image MAILc >>  ( >> -CLI-E-IMAGEFNF, image file not found0 >> BEAST$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]MAIL.EXE; >wF >   OK, double check on whether MAIL can be removed via the TAILOR OFFF >   facility.  If so, it can probably be tailored on (and my remembery >   is faulty).        Is this an OpenVMS VAX system? TAILOR only works on VAX.e  F >   Otherwise you can extract MAIL.EXE from the installation kit usingE >   backup/select (use backup/list to find out which save set, one of C >   the .B, .C, .D, ..., files).  Then you may find when you run iteD >   that MAILSHR is also missing, keep up trying and restoring until >   you get all the files. > @ >   Finally, MAILSHR and some of the other images may need to be@ >   installed with privileges.  This is typically controlled viaE >   VMS_IMAGES.DAT and if you tell us what version of VMS we can tell>= >   you what that should be, but you should let AUTOGEN buildo >   VMS_IMAGES.DAT.   B On Alpha, similar efforst might work by copying the files from the CD to the system disk.    B The supported way to do this on ALpha is to boot the OpenVMS ALphaA operating system CD-ROM and re-install or re-configure.  Proceed  I just like an UPGRADE -- you'll be asked about re-install vs re-configure.f     -- eJ       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:30:33 +0300; From: "Oleksii Krykun" <krikun@do.not.spam.academy.kiev.ua>dA Subject: Re: My system can not start (VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0)eQ Message-ID: <1037270357C4D411A1C900A0C9D4BFCBD5A336@hqnts40div01.academy.kiev.ua>s  3 "jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in messaget2 news:o4mviv4j44hl8jhmd64tvhroresa032ff3@4ax.com...G > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:52 +0100, "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com>  > wrote: >oJ > >You will NOT be able to do your housekeeping at the SYSBOOT prompt. You need' > >to boot the minimum VMS environment.s > >e  > >SYSBOOT> SET STARTUP_P1 "MIN" > >SYSBOOT> CONT > >a >a4 > I would add another command prior to "CONT" above: >  > SYSBOOT> set writesysparams 0  >AG > Otherwise VMS will set their startup to "minimum" permanently (or, atD least:  > until they run AUTOGEN again).                  ^^^^^^^ SYSGEN -  I think ;)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 07:33:10 -0500:1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>DA Subject: Re: My system can not start (VAX 4000-200 & OpenVMS 7.0)3' Message-ID: <3F30F586.2217CBC1@fsi.net>d   Oleksii Krykun wrote:t > 5 > "jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message 4 > news:o4mviv4j44hl8jhmd64tvhroresa032ff3@4ax.com...I > > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:52 +0100, "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com>f
 > > wrote: > >lL > > >You will NOT be able to do your housekeeping at the SYSBOOT prompt. You > need) > > >to boot the minimum VMS environment.e > > > " > > >SYSBOOT> SET STARTUP_P1 "MIN" > > >SYSBOOT> CONT > > >p > >t6 > > I would add another command prior to "CONT" above: > > ! > > SYSBOOT> set writesysparams 0n > >nI > > Otherwise VMS will set their startup to "minimum" permanently (or, atc > least)" > > until they run AUTOGEN again). >                  ^^^^^^^ > SYSGEN -  I think ;)  E AUTOGEN starts from the DEFAULT parameters and applies the changes iniD MODPARAMS (and FEEDBACK, if you want) to arrive at the new parameter set.  H SYSGEN (or SYSMAN PARAMETERS) is how to change the CURRENT parameter set? manually. It is also the program AUTOGEN uses to manipulate the-E parameters. Dynamic parameters can also be changed in the ACTIVE set.a   --   David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systems: http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/w   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Aug 2003 00:22:48 -0500h+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Netware is no VMS3 Message-ID: <rPPHXgKR3lIl@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  7 http://news.com.com/2100-7252_3-5060413.html?tag=fd_top   M "There are still people using (the) VMS (operating system) and minicomputers.tD Just because development stops, doesn't mean people stop using it."   2            -- Chris Stone, vice chairman at Novell  
 Oh really?  6 	Mr. Stone I know VMS and to paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, 	"Netware is no VMS."v  ? 	It's rather sad that such a fine OS as Netware has declined asy* 	much as it has.  But it isn't surprising.  ? 	Your statement links Novell's apparent decision to discontinue1C 	Netware's development with VMS.  Inferring that VMS's development sF 	has "stopped."  It hasn't.  This July 23rd roadmap shows on slide 10 : 	what the schedule is for VMS OS development through 2006:  U http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps_files/openvms_roadmaps.pdft  ? 	The slide show itself, is chuck full of development highlights < 	for all aspects of VMS.  Such a roadmap has been very handy; 	to counter-act blantant ignorance or deliberate FUDding of-
 	OS plans.  ; 	Oh, one final misconception that should be corrected.  You E 	are denigrating VMS as some sort of long in the tooth "minicomputer"n@ 	OS.  Actually, VMS supports up to 96 nodes in a cluster and as ; 	the above reference notes, large Itanium systems in a 2006 ? 	timeframe will be VMS ready.  High node-count clusters supportS* 	mission critical applications today, etc.  - 				Rob Young                                e      cc: Chris Stone  at novell.com        Rob Lemos  at  News.com         I The opinions represented herein are mine.  I in no way represent HP, VMS,cC or anything else that might be confused with an official statement.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:15:10 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS2 Message-ID: <cUGdnVdTEZ2CJK2iXTWJjA@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:rPPHXgKR3lIl@eisner.encompasserve.org...r   ...$  *   This July 23rd roadmap shows on slide 10; > what the schedule is for VMS OS development through 2006:g >t >mL http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps_files/openvms_roa	 dmaps.pdfS  H Er, no, it does not.  It shows VMS development through *2005* - and withG precious little detail (not even a specific *version* number) about thehL projected 2005 release (e.g., *no* new features defined - just 'performance,A security, storage, standards', which could mean next to nothing).t  K For example, the following slides show a single 2005 feature - 'new clusterrG interconnect' (and that limited to Itanic platforms - so much for AlphanL equivalence) - plus some 'future investigations' which are explicitly statedK *not* to be commitments (not that 'commitment' carries much weight anyway).>I Even layered product activity beyond 2004 is minimal:  TCP/IP, RDB, ACMS,5! and Advanced Server are about it.    >M@ > The slide show itself, is chuck full of development highlights= > for all aspects of VMS.  Such a roadmap has been very handyo< > to counter-act blantant ignorance or deliberate FUDding of > OS plans.   L As long as people don't take a close look at what it actually says, perhaps.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Aug 2003 09:06:38 -0500 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)k Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS3 Message-ID: <P7D0zwv2pLG9@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  _ In article <cUGdnVdTEZ2CJK2iXTWJjA@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:rPPHXgKR3lIl@eisner.encompasserve.org...  >  > ...p > , >   This July 23rd roadmap shows on slide 10< >> what the schedule is for VMS OS development through 2006: >> >>N > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps_files/openvms_roa > dmaps.pdf  > ? > Er, no, it does not.  It shows VMS development through *2005*S  6 	2006 is on that chart with indications 8.x could slip	 	to 2006.e  ; 	Clearly shows 8.2 deliverables in a mid-2004 to early 2005a: 	timeframe.  Shows 8.x with FRS 2005 but may slip to 2006.= 	Shows 7.3-2 early 2003 to early 2004 but has been mentioned h; 	October 2003 is a likely date.  Future versions are at the > 	bottom with an arrow to the right (as has been discussed here	 	before).   F 	But this is nothing new.  You have been through this before when you 9 	FUDed it up in February 2003 and that was addresed then:d   ===M   http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl920450738d&dq=&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=rdeininger-2502030801120001%40user-uinj4k9.dialup.mindspring.com  K >Indeed, I do not expect time to stop after 2006 either:  what I find a bitrD >ominous is that there's no indication of any *specific* VMS-relatedM >development planned after early 2005 (yes, there's the "on-going enhancments-D >blah blah blah" boilerplate, but that doesn't exactly reassure me).  F The obvious (and correct) explanation is that VMS Engineering does not) schedule specific work so far in advance.3   ===6   > - and withI > precious little detail (not even a specific *version* number) about the N > projected 2005 release (e.g., *no* new features defined - just 'performance,C > security, storage, standards', which could mean next to nothing).> >   A 	That's what a number of them have said for quite a while.  They	4@ 	don't stuff a ton of detail in there.  And that is it's purpose 	as Hoff states:  e http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=tAwm8.1353%24fL6.26982%40news.cpqcorp.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain   D "The roadmap has general information on other future releases, too."  + 	And yet, 7.3-2 has the following features:   6 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/v732features.html  4 	A long list that would make this post very painful.  : 	I suppose in a few months when that roadmap suddenly does; 	dump into 2006, you start questioning why it doesn't go to  	2007?   				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:57:46 GMTc" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS0 Message-ID: <00A23F89.A986455D@SendSpamHere.ORG>  a In article <rPPHXgKR3lIl@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:b >d8 >http://news.com.com/2100-7252_3-5060413.html?tag=fd_top > N >"There are still people using (the) VMS (operating system) and minicomputers.E >Just because development stops, doesn't mean people stop using it." b >d3 >           -- Chris Stone, vice chairman at Novello >s >Oh really?g >17 >	Mr. Stone I know VMS and to paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen,  >	"Netware is no VMS." >t@ >	It's rather sad that such a fine OS as Netware has declined as+ >	much as it has.  But it isn't surprising.p >e@ >	Your statement links Novell's apparent decision to discontinueD >	Netware's development with VMS.  Inferring that VMS's development G >	has "stopped."  It hasn't.  This July 23rd roadmap shows on slide 10 '; >	what the schedule is for VMS OS development through 2006:n >tV >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps_files/openvms_roadmaps.pdf > @ >	The slide show itself, is chuck full of development highlights= >	for all aspects of VMS.  Such a roadmap has been very handyc< >	to counter-act blantant ignorance or deliberate FUDding of >	OS plans.. >/< >	Oh, one final misconception that should be corrected.  YouF >	are denigrating VMS as some sort of long in the tooth "minicomputer"A >	OS.  Actually, VMS supports up to 96 nodes in a cluster and as I< >	the above reference notes, large Itanium systems in a 2006@ >	timeframe will be VMS ready.  High node-count clusters support+ >	mission critical applications today, etc.y >o. >				Rob Young                                 >e >a! >cc: Chris Stone  at novell.com  a! >    Rob Lemos  at  News.com     l >r >nJ >The opinions represented herein are mine.  I in no way represent HP, VMS,D >or anything else that might be confused with an official statement.  F Of course not!  HP doesn't make *any* statements about VMS.  HP simplyF remains silent which, in and of itself, speaks at loud volume of their concern for VMS.  D Respectfully, Brian who is trying to figure out how to buy that brew pub he's always want to run. --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             f5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:44:34 -0500d1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>d Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS' Message-ID: <3F312262.2E823E5C@fsi.net>o  ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:m > [snip]F > Respectfully, Brian who is trying to figure out how to buy that brew > pub he's always want to run.  3 I could see that - how many barkeeps carry a pager?d  E On another note, with Novell and Ximian getting together, the time tooD open my Linux-centric computer store looks like now more than it has2 before. Does anyone else see an opportunity there?  C Not a brew pub, I grant you, but still seems to hold an interestingh portent, IMO...i   -- , David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Aug 2003 11:03:43 -0500o+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS3 Message-ID: <HUBUEyTc$+D+@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  [ In article <3F312262.2E823E5C@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: # > VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:b	 >> [snip] G >> Respectfully, Brian who is trying to figure out how to buy that brewc >> pub he's always want to run.l > G > On another note, with Novell and Ximian getting together, the time toaF > open my Linux-centric computer store looks like now more than it has4 > before. Does anyone else see an opportunity there? >   > 	A boutique?  Or would you care to compete with the Best Buys/6 	Circuit Citys/Barnes and Nobles/Amazons of the world?  = 	Boutique.  So you would stock autographed pictures of Linus,a= 	autographed books, hard to find out of date copies of Linux,t? 	the latest Linux rags.  Penguin posters and penguins all abouta= 	to give it that nice warm and fuzzy penguin feeling to boot.y  < 	Coffee, not beer.  The magazines would hold up a bit better( 	with folks sipping coffee as they read. 	 E > Not a brew pub, I grant you, but still seems to hold an interestinge > portent, IMO...a  < 	Yeah, they would be banging down the doors at opening time.   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:35:46 -0500e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS' Message-ID: <3F312E62.B2D691E7@fsi.net>    Rob Young wrote: > ] > In article <3F312262.2E823E5C@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:8% > > VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:- > >> [snip] I > >> Respectfully, Brian who is trying to figure out how to buy that brewo! > >> pub he's always want to run.: > >II > > On another note, with Novell and Ximian getting together, the time tooH > > open my Linux-centric computer store looks like now more than it has6 > > before. Does anyone else see an opportunity there? > >: >  >         A boutique?  e   Define "boutique".  ; ...or do you perhaps remember "ComputerLand"? Ever heard of G http://www.cdw.com/? ... http://www.macmall.com/? (start small and grow  ...)  2 > Or would you care to compete with the Best Buys/? >         Circuit Citys/Barnes and Nobles/Amazons of the world?n  H I've never heard of enterprise IS doing business with "Big Box" consumerH appliance stores or franchise booksellers, though I s'pose its possible. So, I guess the answer is "no".W  F >         Boutique.  So you would stock autographed pictures of Linus,F >         autographed books, hard to find out of date copies of Linux,H >         the latest Linux rags.  Penguin posters and penguins all aboutF >         to give it that nice warm and fuzzy penguin feeling to boot.  > No, but might be a nice touch. Must admit, I hadn't thought of  promotional products like those.  E >         Coffee, not beer.  The magazines would hold up a bit betterF1 >         with folks sipping coffee as they read.c  G Huh? Aren't coffee stains darker than beer stains? Coffee with sugar iss> probably at least as sticky as beer when it dries, I s'pose...  G > > Not a brew pub, I grant you, but still seems to hold an interestingc > > portent, IMO...  > E >         Yeah, they would be banging down the doors at opening time.d  E Linux + Ximian on the Enterprise desktop during the biz day, brewskis. from Penguin mugs after hours.   Works for me.../   You buyin' the next round?   -- e David J. Dachterad dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:50:36 GMT)& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS8 Message-ID: <ueb2jvs5e4upk428af4h2orv3bu1j3vvfg@4ax.com>  G On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:15:10 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  wrote:  I >Er, no, it does not.  It shows VMS development through *2005* - and withiH >precious little detail (not even a specific *version* number) about theM >projected 2005 release (e.g., *no* new features defined - just 'performance,rB >security, storage, standards', which could mean next to nothing). >pL >For example, the following slides show a single 2005 feature - 'new clusterH >interconnect' (and that limited to Itanic platforms - so much for AlphaM >equivalence) - plus some 'future investigations' which are explicitly stated L >*not* to be commitments (not that 'commitment' carries much weight anyway).  / I know this take us a little off-topic, but....r  G What new features do you believe are needed above what's already in thepD roadmap?  For me, at this point, I don't see any real missing killerH feature that's both feasible (i.e., not something like process migration% between cluster nodes), and valuable.   F After all, it's only an OS, and most people really only care about theI business apps that run on it.  Earlier on, it used to be fun to learn the I new things that new versions of VMS would allow us to do (e.g., autostarttI queues,and  phase I & phase II shadowing were kinda cool), but now thingscC tend to just run, it seems like the "maytag repairman" life for VMSnJ administrators (though SAN implementations have brought some new life into- things, that's mostly outside the OS itself).o  J >Even layered product activity beyond 2004 is minimal:  TCP/IP, RDB, ACMS," >and Advanced Server are about it. >t  F And even here there really aren't that many layered products left fromJ DEC/CPQ/HPQ that anyone's even buying.  I mean, BASEstar?  DECwrite?  DCE?J SNA Stuff?  FMS?  PHIGS & GKS?  Office Server?  Not much excitement in any of that.  K Other than what you've listed above (and heck Rdb isn't even HP's), and thehI compilers, I'm just not sure what products from HP would be updated.  ForFJ someone who used to get a thrill out of receiving the quarterly LP updates= and learning "new" stuff regularly, it's gotten kinda boring.   I It seems like the only reason the LP library is still 9 CDs is that theren, are so many language variants to distrubute.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:15:12 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS2 Message-ID: <LBycnZkZvrYvqqyiXTWJhg@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:P7D0zwv2pLG9@eisner.encompasserve.org...g@ > In article <cUGdnVdTEZ2CJK2iXTWJjA@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >-< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:rPPHXgKR3lIl@eisner.encompasserve.org...D > >S > > ...H > >W. > >   This July 23rd roadmap shows on slide 10> > >> what the schedule is for VMS OS development through 2006: > >> > >> > >tL http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps_files/openvms_roa
 > > dmaps.pdfo > > A > > Er, no, it does not.  It shows VMS development through *2005*i >w > 2006 is on that chartp  K Hey, 2020 could be on the chart.  The question is whether any *development*  is on the chart.     with indications 8.x could slip
 > to 2006.  I Bullshit, Rob.  The FRS date for '8.x' is clearly stated as 2005, without  qualification.   >t. > Clearly shows 8.2 deliverables in a mid-2004   That's the 8.2 date, all right.    > to early 2005h   No, Rob:  the 8.2 date is 2004.,  ; > timeframe.  Shows 8.x with FRS 2005 but may slip to 2006.i  4 Repeating your error won't make it true, I'm afraid.   ...   ; > I suppose in a few months when that roadmap suddenly does( > dump into 2006,   J Ah - we finally get the admission that the roadmap you claimed showed 'VMSF OS development through 2006' does not even reach 2006.  I guess that'sL progress of a sort - the next step will be to admit that it doesn't show any. *specific* VMS *OS* development beyond *2004*.  +  you start questioning why it doesn't go to  > 2007?s  K No - if specific VMS *OS* development scheduled for 2006 actually *appears* G at some point, I'll just correct you again if you then suggest that thef0 roadmap shows 'VMS OS development through 2007'.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:22:37 GMTd; From: "John Gemignani, Jr." <jon-nope@thiswontworkossc.net>r Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS; Message-ID: <xPaYa.9931$jg.2814379@news1.news.adelphia.net>n  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3F312E62.B2D691E7@fsi.net...  > Rob Young wrote: > >s? > > In article <3F312262.2E823E5C@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"l <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:r' > > > VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:p
 > > >> [snip]PK > > >> Respectfully, Brian who is trying to figure out how to buy that brewg# > > >> pub he's always want to run.e > > >hK > > > On another note, with Novell and Ximian getting together, the time to J > > > open my Linux-centric computer store looks like now more than it has8 > > > before. Does anyone else see an opportunity there? > > >a > >e > >         A boutique?M >  > Define "boutique". >m= > ...or do you perhaps remember "ComputerLand"? Ever heard of I > http://www.cdw.com/? ... http://www.macmall.com/? (start small and grow8 > ...) >g4 > > Or would you care to compete with the Best Buys/A > >         Circuit Citys/Barnes and Nobles/Amazons of the world?o >jJ > I've never heard of enterprise IS doing business with "Big Box" consumerJ > appliance stores or franchise booksellers, though I s'pose its possible.! > So, I guess the answer is "no".n >oH > >         Boutique.  So you would stock autographed pictures of Linus,H > >         autographed books, hard to find out of date copies of Linux,J > >         the latest Linux rags.  Penguin posters and penguins all aboutH > >         to give it that nice warm and fuzzy penguin feeling to boot. >-@ > No, but might be a nice touch. Must admit, I hadn't thought of" > promotional products like those. > G > >         Coffee, not beer.  The magazines would hold up a bit betters3 > >         with folks sipping coffee as they read.n >tI > Huh? Aren't coffee stains darker than beer stains? Coffee with sugar ist@ > probably at least as sticky as beer when it dries, I s'pose...    B     But if you come home late with coffee stains your wife doesn't$     ask where you've been, does she?  ;     "What is that?  A COFFEE STAIN!!!!  You've been to thatnB     boutique again!  That's it!  I'm going home to mother, and I'm     taking the PC!"r  C     (Good ridance ... to the PC, that is ... you deserve every blue-     screen that you get.)   	     -John0   >:I > > > Not a brew pub, I grant you, but still seems to hold an interestingi > > > portent, IMO...d > >sG > >         Yeah, they would be banging down the doors at opening time.d >6G > Linux + Ximian on the Enterprise desktop during the biz day, brewskis   > from Penguin mugs after hours. >a > Works for me...< >n > You buyin' the next round? >> > --   > David J. Dachtera0 > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ >>* > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:33:10 -0700g+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>o Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS' Message-ID: <3F313BD6.1010405@MMaz.com>E   jlsue wrote:  H >On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:15:10 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> >wrote:a >  g >cJ >>Er, no, it does not.  It shows VMS development through *2005* - and withI >>precious little detail (not even a specific *version* number) about theaN >>projected 2005 release (e.g., *no* new features defined - just 'performance,C >>security, storage, standards', which could mean next to nothing).e >>M >>For example, the following slides show a single 2005 feature - 'new clusteroI >>interconnect' (and that limited to Itanic platforms - so much for Alpha N >>equivalence) - plus some 'future investigations' which are explicitly statedM >>*not* to be commitments (not that 'commitment' carries much weight anyway).- >>     >> >Y0 >I know this take us a little off-topic, but.... >6H >What new features do you believe are needed above what's already in theE >roadmap?  For me, at this point, I don't see any real missing killerOI >feature that's both feasible (i.e., not something like process migration & >between cluster nodes), and valuable. >  c >e  E A very interesting Linux project, which is underway, is a clustering  F project that creates a unified process space between cluster nodes so C that true load balancing and failover can occur when a member node 3H either slows or dies...  There is no question that VMSclusters has lead E the way in clustering, but it was never completed to what would be a oH logical conclusion; Process failover/recovery and true load-balancing...  I So, though I was not asked the question, yes I believe VMS can always be oE improved and features added, and this is just one central core issue e that is OS specific...   Barryt     -- i  > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                        h   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:00:52 -0500% From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com>l Subject: Re: NTP problem; Message-ID: <pV%Xa.77801$6a3.2270175@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>r  J First we need to turn on NTP in TCPIP.  Then we check the data file to seeJ that our server is listed.  Then you cycle the service and trace the route to it.   Set def sys$manager:
 @tcpip$config  3 - Server option.= {Select the NTP option, and enable it.  It's either 11 or 12}t    Set def sys$specific:[tcpip$ntp] diraG {make sure that TCPIP$NTP.CONF exists.  If not you need to copy it fromD somewhere else, or make one.}sL {edit the TCPIP$NTP.CONF file and make sure your NTP server is listed in the config file}   Set def sys$manager: @tcpip$ntp_shutdowni @tcpip$ntp_startup @tcpip$define_commands% ntptrace {your ntp server name or Ip}i     Hope this helps.  
 Mike Naime  ? Andy Bustamante <a_c_bustamante@earthlink.net> wrote in message 9 news:%DUXa.423$9U3.34474101@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com... L > Do you have a TCPIP$NTP user?  tcpip$config.com will create this user when- > you enable the service if it doesn't exist.d >t > -- > Andy Bustamanten > remove the ASCII 95s to replyU >I > : > "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@digita.fi> wrote in message4 > news:5fKXa.4905$HC4.414@reader1.news.jippii.net...E > > I've been using NTP quite a long time as a time source on our VMSe > machines,cG > > but now when I try to start NTP on our new DS10 it won't start. Thei	 > commandnL > > that is not working inside the tcpip$ntp_startup is tcpip enable serviceK > > ntp. Tcpip$ntp.conf is similar that is  working in other VMS boxes. VMSeJ > > 7.3-1 with patches (nearly all, some latest missing) and tcpip 5.3 ECO 2.> > > DTSS disabled and deleteted. Any ideas what may be wrong ? > >-
 > > -Kari- > > HAUKKA$ @TCPIP$NTP_STARTUP > >5; > > %TCPIP-I-INFO, image SYS$SYSTEM:TCPIP$NTP.EXE installed  > >j( > > %TCPIP-I-INFO, logical names created > >r3 > > %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP servicee > >w; > > -TCPIP-E-BADVALUE, value Service User_name is incorrecto > >t  > > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found > > 3 > > %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP service  > >a  > > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found > > 3 > > %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP service  > >h; > > -TCPIP-E-BADVALUE, value Service User_name is incorrects > >   > > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found > > 3 > > %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP service  > >   > > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found > >d1 > > %TCPIP-E-STARTFAIL, failed to start TCPIP$NTPs > >r- > > -TCPIP-E-ENABLERR, error enabling service  > > & > > HAUKKA$ tcpip sho service ntp/full > >o > >  > > Service: NTP > >  > > State: Disabled+ > > 0 > > Port: 123 Protocol: TCP,UDP Address: 0.0.0.0 > > - > > User_name: not defined Process: TCPIP$NTP  > >l > >c > >t > >c > >i > >s >  >a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:06:21 +0300- From: "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@digita.fi>s Subject: Re: NTP problem9 Message-ID: <0R0Ya.5199$HC4.3433@reader1.news.jippii.net>.  ) "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> kirjoitti : viestiss:pV%Xa.77801$6a3.2270175@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...L > First we need to turn on NTP in TCPIP.  Then we check the data file to seeL > that our server is listed.  Then you cycle the service and trace the route > to it. >o > Set def sys$manager: > @tcpip$configm > 3 - Server option.? > {Select the NTP option, and enable it.  It's either 11 or 12}c >TH I've done this many times, only in this case enabling the service fails. TCPIP$NTP user is ok in sysuaf.e  " > Set def sys$specific:[tcpip$ntp] > diruI > {make sure that TCPIP$NTP.CONF exists.  If not you need to copy it froma > somewhere else, or make one.}hJ > {edit the TCPIP$NTP.CONF file and make sure your NTP server is listed in the  > config file}& As I wrote before the CONF file is ok.   >r > Set def sys$manager: > @tcpip$ntp_shutdown  > @tcpip$ntp_startup > @tcpip$define_commands' > ntptrace {your ntp server name or Ip}h >w Trace works: HAUKKA$ ntptrace ahma.digita.fi   B ahma.digita.fi: stratum 3, offset 0.002080, synch distance 0.04291  B mrtg.digita.fi: stratum 2, offset 0.001397, synch distance 0.02621  I aika.digita.fi: stratum 1, offset 0.001277, synch distance 0.00000, refidl 'GPS'   
 What fails iso  HAUKKA$ tcpip enable service ntp  / %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP service,  7 -TCPIP-E-BADVALUE, value Service User_name is incorrectw   -RMS-E-RNF, record not found  / %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP service    -RMS-E-RNF, record not found  / %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP serviceo  7 -TCPIP-E-BADVALUE, value Service User_name is incorrectd   -RMS-E-RNF, record not found  / %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP servicec   -RMS-E-RNF, record not found     >i > Hope this helps. Didn't, but thanks anyway.   -Kari- >h > Mike Naime >aA > Andy Bustamante <a_c_bustamante@earthlink.net> wrote in message ; > news:%DUXa.423$9U3.34474101@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...-I > > Do you have a TCPIP$NTP user?  tcpip$config.com will create this user  when/ > > you enable the service if it doesn't exist.- > >- > > -- > > Andy Bustamante-! > > remove the ASCII 95s to reply- > >- > >-< > > "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@digita.fi> wrote in message6 > > news:5fKXa.4905$HC4.414@reader1.news.jippii.net...G > > > I've been using NTP quite a long time as a time source on our VMSo
 > > machines,tI > > > but now when I try to start NTP on our new DS10 it won't start. The  > > commandpF > > > that is not working inside the tcpip$ntp_startup is tcpip enable service.I > > > ntp. Tcpip$ntp.conf is similar that is  working in other VMS boxes.1 VMS3L > > > 7.3-1 with patches (nearly all, some latest missing) and tcpip 5.3 ECO > 2.@ > > > DTSS disabled and deleteted. Any ideas what may be wrong ? > > >a > > > -Kari-  > > > HAUKKA$ @TCPIP$NTP_STARTUP > > >@= > > > %TCPIP-I-INFO, image SYS$SYSTEM:TCPIP$NTP.EXE installedi > > >w* > > > %TCPIP-I-INFO, logical names created > > > 5 > > > %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP service> > > >-= > > > -TCPIP-E-BADVALUE, value Service User_name is incorrectF > > > " > > > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found > > >O5 > > > %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP servicee > > >c" > > > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found > > >i5 > > > %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP servicem > > > = > > > -TCPIP-E-BADVALUE, value Service User_name is incorrectl > > > " > > > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found > > >A5 > > > %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP servicec > > >b" > > > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found > > >o3 > > > %TCPIP-E-STARTFAIL, failed to start TCPIP$NTPn > > >y/ > > > -TCPIP-E-ENABLERR, error enabling servicep > > >i( > > > HAUKKA$ tcpip sho service ntp/full > > >. > > >  > > > Service: NTP > > >  > > > State: Disabled  > > > 2 > > > Port: 123 Protocol: TCP,UDP Address: 0.0.0.0 > > >o/ > > > User_name: not defined Process: TCPIP$NTPh > > >i > > >M > > >n > > >  > > >  > > >a > >u > >, >t >u   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:28:59 +0300- From: "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@digita.fi>D Subject: Re: NTP problem8 Message-ID: <eH4Ya.5270$HC4.358@reader1.news.jippii.net>  K Problem solved. There was product installed (DCE) that used its own NTP andu/ has its own service configured to use port 123.s   thanks for the answers -Kari-  ) "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> kirjoittia: viestiss:pV%Xa.77801$6a3.2270175@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...L > First we need to turn on NTP in TCPIP.  Then we check the data file to seeL > that our server is listed.  Then you cycle the service and trace the route > to it. >g > Set def sys$manager: > @tcpip$configu > 3 - Server option.? > {Select the NTP option, and enable it.  It's either 11 or 12}0 >0" > Set def sys$specific:[tcpip$ntp] > dirDI > {make sure that TCPIP$NTP.CONF exists.  If not you need to copy it fromx > somewhere else, or make one.}gJ > {edit the TCPIP$NTP.CONF file and make sure your NTP server is listed in the9 > config file} >a > Set def sys$manager: > @tcpip$ntp_shutdownu > @tcpip$ntp_startup > @tcpip$define_commands' > ntptrace {your ntp server name or Ip}e >n >m > Hope this helps. >e > Mike Naime > A > Andy Bustamante <a_c_bustamante@earthlink.net> wrote in message ; > news:%DUXa.423$9U3.34474101@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...rI > > Do you have a TCPIP$NTP user?  tcpip$config.com will create this user  when/ > > you enable the service if it doesn't exist.  > >  > > -- > > Andy Bustamanteh! > > remove the ASCII 95s to reply- > >  > >e< > > "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@digita.fi> wrote in message6 > > news:5fKXa.4905$HC4.414@reader1.news.jippii.net...G > > > I've been using NTP quite a long time as a time source on our VMSn
 > > machines, I > > > but now when I try to start NTP on our new DS10 it won't start. The  > > command4F > > > that is not working inside the tcpip$ntp_startup is tcpip enable serviceoI > > > ntp. Tcpip$ntp.conf is similar that is  working in other VMS boxes.l VMSdL > > > 7.3-1 with patches (nearly all, some latest missing) and tcpip 5.3 ECO > 2.@ > > > DTSS disabled and deleteted. Any ideas what may be wrong ? > > >  > > > -Kari-  > > > HAUKKA$ @TCPIP$NTP_STARTUP > > >o= > > > %TCPIP-I-INFO, image SYS$SYSTEM:TCPIP$NTP.EXE installed  > > > * > > > %TCPIP-I-INFO, logical names created > > >e5 > > > %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP serviceN > > >.= > > > -TCPIP-E-BADVALUE, value Service User_name is incorrect  > > >f" > > > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found > > >c5 > > > %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP servicer > > >t" > > > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found > > > 5 > > > %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP service  > > >y= > > > -TCPIP-E-BADVALUE, value Service User_name is incorrecte > > >y" > > > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found > > > 5 > > > %TCPIP-E-STARTERROR, error starting NTP servicem > > >p" > > > -RMS-E-RNF, record not found > > > 3 > > > %TCPIP-E-STARTFAIL, failed to start TCPIP$NTP  > > >-/ > > > -TCPIP-E-ENABLERR, error enabling service2 > > >0( > > > HAUKKA$ tcpip sho service ntp/full > > >  > > >: > > > Service: NTP > > >- > > > State: Disabledr > > >a2 > > > Port: 123 Protocol: TCP,UDP Address: 0.0.0.0 > > >l/ > > > User_name: not defined Process: TCPIP$NTPe > > >o > > >g > > >) > > >n > > >e > > >u > >c > >d >l >e   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 03 11:05:21 GMTt From: jmfbahciv@aol.come$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates, Message-ID: <bgqr3d$5on$14@bob.news.rcn.net>  + In article <3F2FEB55.C73F6F0@yk.rim.or.jp>,f*    Ishikawa <ishikawa@yk.rim.or.jp> wrote:= >I am not sure if this goes out well since my ISP news servere >is acting a little strange. >iH >> I just looked it over, and there's not even the slightest similarity  betweentA >> the DEC BASIC source code and the Microsoft BASIC source code.a >h5 >This is mainly because the Microsoft BASIC needed tot5 >fit in the very tight memory space of that time, ands> >for this, the Microsoft basic used tokenizatin/compression of0 >the source lines in a somewhat paranoia manner.2 >That was a very good point of MS Basic back then. >e@ >But aside from it, then it was a bland implementation of BASIC., >At that level, there would be a similarity. >c+ >However, to offer a bland BASIC inerpreter 4 >at in a tight memory space of a PC in those day was, >also a good point, and the legend goes that; >the binary worked the first time on the real 8008 to boot.0; >(The interpreter was debugged using the chip emuator prioru
 >to that.) >n1 >MS Basic I/O iterpreter code used an interesting 4 >idiom: in/out instruction code was put in register,0 >and the generic I/O handler was called. It uses3 >the instruction in the code to implement basically  > while certain condition  >  doh: >      input_or_output_on_buffer(...) <-- this is switchedI >  done                                   by the CPU code in the register  >m9 >Since the memory was so tight, saving code space thusly e8 >by having a single READ/WRITE routine that is used both5 >for input/output was considered a win. (This was notn$ >thread safe if I recall correctly.)6 >I heard that this code was done by Bill Gates himself5 >and that he was very proud of the code trick and thee >memory saving.    GoodfuckingGRIEF!h  < Bill Gates thinking would have improved if somebody had done
 a lobotomy.  S  9 >For quite some time, the same idiom continously appeared06 >in MS libraries and programs, up to, I think win 3.1.6 >(No, maybe I am wrong. Maybe win 3.1 finally did away  >with the non-thread-safe code.)  ; Nope.  This one explains exactly why this monster does whatd; it does.  I knew they didn't know how to do I/O.  I hadn't  ; realized that they had also included a random I/O directiond
 generator.   >I; >I recall we had potato basic (someone from U. of Idaho dide( >an implementation) and many variants on >different CPUs back then. t  ? I swear every school had their "kids" do a BASIC of some flavory or another.  >v >Good ole days?s   Never.   > .. Hard to judge.n  = No, it's not.  If those days were back, the only way I'd havei@ access to a machine is to work for it.  Now I can have, not only one in my house, but many.   /BAH      ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.r   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 03 10:59:03 GMTo From: jmfbahciv@aol.coms$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates, Message-ID: <bgqqnj$5on$13@bob.news.rcn.net>  0 In article <qhllu77je3.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,7    Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:G	 >I wrote:cH >> I just looked it over, and there's not even the slightest similarity  between<A >> the DEC BASIC source code and the Microsoft BASIC source code.a >r( >Ishikawa <ishikawa@yk.rim.or.jp> wrote:7 >> This is mainly because the Microsoft BASIC needed tos7 >> fit in the very tight memory space of that time, ande@ >> for this, the Microsoft basic used tokenizatin/compression of2 >> the source lines in a somewhat paranoia manner.4 >> That was a very good point of MS Basic back then. >sE >HP 2000 Time Shared BASIC did a much better job of minimizing memoryiF >utilization of user programs, and that predated Microsoft's effort byB >six years.  Both that and Apple's Integer BASIC (which came afterF >Microsoft BASIC) did much more agressive encoding, rather than simply3 >replacing keywords with single-byte abbreviations.e >oC >Wozniak has stated that he had partially completed an extension ofsK >Apple BASIC to floating point at the time the decision was made to license  >Microsoft BASIC instead.  >iB >> But aside from it, then it was a bland implementation of BASIC.. >> At that level, there would be a similarity. >lK >Not any more than you'd expect to find between any two BASIC interpreters.uI >The structure of the DEC and Microsoft interpreters aren't even similar.:G >It's not a matter of Microsoft copying DEC's general design and addingiJ >tokenization.  There's really no common structure to them.  The MicrosoftF >source code doesn't reveal even the slightest bit of inspiration fromH >the BASIC-10 source code.  While it's possible that Gates and Allen hadH >access to the BASIC-10 source code, it doesn't appear that they studied >it or used it as a model.  B That's really too bad.  If they had, they would have learned about= managing I/O without blowing the file structure off.  If theyr2 had, I'd have saved weeks of disk rebuilding time.   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Aug 2003 15:19:34 GMT 1 From: JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)f$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates: Message-ID: <bgr6a6$rom$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  + In message <3F2FEB55.C73F6F0@yk.rim.or.jp>,f*    Ishikawa <ishikawa@yk.rim.or.jp> wrote:1 >MS Basic I/O iterpreter code used an interestingp4 >idiom: in/out instruction code was put in register,0 >and the generic I/O handler was called. It uses3 >the instruction in the code to implement basicallyd > while certain condition, >  doa: >      input_or_output_on_buffer(...) <-- this is switchedI >  done                                   by the CPU code in the registerm >   9 >For quite some time, the same idiom continously appearede6 >in MS libraries and programs, up to, I think win 3.1.6 >(No, maybe I am wrong. Maybe win 3.1 finally did away  >with the non-thread-safe code.)  H The idiocy lives on in Samba code.  When you call the rpc_parse functionM prs_uint32("type", ps, depth, &type), it either reads the value from variable F type, or writes a new value to type depending upon the state of struct" ps (marshalling on unmarshalling).      < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929- Ohio State University        |      Internet:SL 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.	   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:12:22 +0200s" From: Mikael Cardell <mc@hack.org>$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates, Message-ID: <8665la3jmx.fsf@fuckup.hack.org>   jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:w  E > If [Microsoft] had [been inspired by DEC's BASIC-10 when they wrote B > the original MS BASIC for Altair], they would have learned aboutD > managing I/O without blowing the file structure off.  If they had,/ > I'd have saved weeks of disk rebuilding time.   D You mean you have actually used MS BASIC much for these things? Why?   MC   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:11:51 -0500% From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> < Subject: Re: pls help: install OS on DS10L without console ?; Message-ID: <dj_Xa.77619$6a3.2242540@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>.  J Is the DECSERVER setup for telnet listener service?  If so, then you wouldK just telnet to the IP and port that you want to access the console on, justoL like you access the terminal sever itself.  If the IP of the terminal serverL was 90.0.0.1,  and you wanted to get to the console on port1, then you wouldH telnet to 90.0.0.1/port=2001 or something like that dependant on your IPL configuration, and your telnet program/service.  The telnet session defaults: to port 23 that is console for the terminal server itself.  J Here is a log of setting up a whole server for telnet listener service forK use with consoleworks.  You will probably just need to verify and/or modify H the first 4 ports that  your console ports are plugged into.  You do not) need modify the entire server like I did.-   I hope this helps you.  
 Mike Naime     Local> sho telnet liste all     A Listener TCP-port:  23                     Listener Type:  TELNETo" Identification:     Telnet Console Ports:              Consolep Connections:        Enabled  IP Address:         90.0.0.15y  C Listener TCP-port:  2001                     Listener Type:  TELNET  Identification:t Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15   C Listener TCP-port:  2002                     Listener Type:  TELNET  Identification:h Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15b  C Listener TCP-port:  2003                     Listener Type:  TELNET  Identification:  Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15/  C Listener TCP-port:  2004                     Listener Type:  TELNET  Identification:  Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15e  C Listener TCP-port:  2005                     Listener Type:  TELNET2 Identification:e Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15w  C Listener TCP-port:  2006                     Listener Type:  TELNETh Identification:e Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15t  C Listener TCP-port:  2007                     Listener Type:  TELNETs Identification:a Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15w  C Listener TCP-port:  2008                     Listener Type:  TELNET  Identification:  Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15h  C Listener TCP-port:  2009                     Listener Type:  TELNET  Identification:s Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15o  C Listener TCP-port:  2010                     Listener Type:  TELNETw Identification:  Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15e  C Listener TCP-port:  2011                     Listener Type:  TELNETo Identification:m Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.150  C Listener TCP-port:  2012                     Listener Type:  TELNETt Identification:e Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.152  C Listener TCP-port:  2013                     Listener Type:  TELNET  Identification:d Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15t  C Listener TCP-port:  2014                     Listener Type:  TELNETn Identification:t Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15s  C Listener TCP-port:  2015                     Listener Type:  TELNETa Identification:r Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15m  C Listener TCP-port:  2016                     Listener Type:  TELNETw Identification:s Ports:              None Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15    Local> help set telnet! DEFINE/SET/CHANGE TELNET LISTENER   K Enables a Telnet listener. Listener is associated with one or more physicalaG Access Server ports.  In order to SET CONNECTIONS ENABLED, at least one B port must be set for the LISTENER.  In order to set PORTS or TYPE, CONNECTIONS must be DISABLED.,  F {DEFINE}  TELNET LISTENER  listener-id  {CONNECTIONS}       {ENABLED }F {SET   }                                {PORTS {ALL      }} {DISABLED}; {CHANGE}                                       {port-list}}n;                                                {CONSOLE  }}dB                                         {IDENTIFICATION id-string}A                                         {TYPE {RAW [TCP]|TELNET}}i9                                         {INTERNET ADDRESSe {internet-address}}e  D                                                  {DEFAULT         }}  H listener-id    identifies Telnet listener.  Valid range is 23, 2001-2016F                decimal (2001-2032 if Access Server has 32 ports).  The?                listener-id also serves as the default TCP port.i  ? CONNECTIONS    enables/disables listener to receive connectionsn#                (default: DISABLED).e  9 Enter <CTRL/Z> to exit HELP or press <RET> to continue...d  = PORTS          ports where listener will be enabled/disabled.l  I ALL            associates listener with physical ports 1 to the number of-H                ports and disassociates it from remote management console port.o  F port-list      can include any combination of ports 1 to the number of ports.I                This will disassociate the listener from the console port.d  F CONSOLE        associates listener with remote management console port9                and disassociates it from all other ports.e  K IDENTIFICATION id-string  descriptive text associated with the listener for "                show displays only.  H TYPE           specifies whether this listener will pass raw data or use4                TELNET translations and negotiations.  H INTERNET ADDRESS   assigns an internet address to a listener causing theI                    listener to only accept connection request targeted to 8                    TCP port 23 of the specified address.    9 Enter <CTRL/Z> to exit HELP or press <RET> to continue... K internet-address   an Internet address specified in dotted decimal notationn  I DEFAULT            de-assigns an internet address from a listener causings theyI                    listener to revert back to using the server's InterneteE                    address and a TCP port equal to the listener's ID.,    
 SET Subtopic?n Topic?! Local> set telnet list po all enau                          ^' Local -334- Invalid listener identifierh Local> set telnet list all ena                           ^(' Local -334- Invalid listener identifierh# Local> set telnet list all conn enat                           ^n' Local -334- Invalid listener identifierf" Local> set telnet list 2001 port 1" Local> set telnet list 2002 port 2" Local> set telnet list 2003 port 3" Local> set telnet list 2004 port 4" Local> set telnet list 2005 port 5" Local> set telnet list 2006 port 6" Local> set telnet list 2007 port 7" Local> set telnet list 2008 port 8" Local> set telnet list 2009 port 9# Local> set telnet list 2010 port 10y# Local> set telnet list 2011 port 11C# Local> set telnet list 2012 port 12f# Local> set telnet list 2013 port 13a# Local> set telnet list 2014 port 14e# Local> set telnet list 2015 port 15n# Local> set telnet list 2016 port 16  Local> sho telnet list 2001P    C Listener TCP-port:  2001                     Listener Type:  TELNETn Identification:P Ports:              1" Connections:        Disabled IP Address:         90.0.0.15l  $ Local> set telnet list 2011 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2001 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2002 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2003 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2004 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2005 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2006 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2007 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2008 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2009 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2010 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2012 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2013 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2014 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2015 conn ena$ Local> set telnet list 2016 conn ena Local> sho telnet list 2001D    C Listener TCP-port:  2001                     Listener Type:  TELNET  Identification:u Ports:              1p Connections:        Enabled> IP Address:         90.0.0.15o   Local> sho telnet list all  A Listener TCP-port:  23                     Listener Type:  TELNET." Identification:     Telnet Console Ports:              Console  Connections:        Enabledo IP Address:         90.0.0.15h  C Listener TCP-port:  2001                     Listener Type:  TELNETl Identification:. Ports:              1  Connections:        Enabled  IP Address:         90.0.0.15f  C Listener TCP-port:  2002                     Listener Type:  TELNETs Identification:l Ports:              22 Connections:        Enablede IP Address:         90.0.0.15w  C Listener TCP-port:  2003                     Listener Type:  TELNETt Identification:m Ports:              3  Connections:        Enabledt IP Address:         90.0.0.15u  C Listener TCP-port:  2004                     Listener Type:  TELNETu Identification:V Ports:              4u Connections:        Enabled2 IP Address:         90.0.0.15o  C Listener TCP-port:  2005                     Listener Type:  TELNETe Identification:e Ports:              5. Connections:        Enabledy IP Address:         90.0.0.15   C Listener TCP-port:  2006                     Listener Type:  TELNETa Identification:n Ports:              6u Connections:        Enableda IP Address:         90.0.0.15e  C Listener TCP-port:  2007                     Listener Type:  TELNET  Identification:  Ports:              7m Connections:        Enabledn IP Address:         90.0.0.15j  C Listener TCP-port:  2008                     Listener Type:  TELNETw Identification:  Ports:              8d Connections:        Enabledn IP Address:         90.0.0.157  C Listener TCP-port:  2009                     Listener Type:  TELNET5 Identification:d Ports:              9. Connections:        Enabled  IP Address:         90.0.0.15o  C Listener TCP-port:  2010                     Listener Type:  TELNETe Identification:h Ports:              10 Connections:        Enabledh IP Address:         90.0.0.15o  C Listener TCP-port:  2011                     Listener Type:  TELNETt Identification:e Ports:              11 Connections:        Enableda IP Address:         90.0.0.15h  C Listener TCP-port:  2012                     Listener Type:  TELNET  Identification:u Ports:              12 Connections:        Enabledt IP Address:         90.0.0.15w  C Listener TCP-port:  2013                     Listener Type:  TELNETr Identification:  Ports:              13 Connections:        EnabledN IP Address:         90.0.0.15j  C Listener TCP-port:  2014                     Listener Type:  TELNETs Identification:  Ports:              14 Connections:        Enabledp IP Address:         90.0.0.15w  C Listener TCP-port:  2015                     Listener Type:  TELNET  Identification:, Ports:              15 Connections:        Enabledd IP Address:         90.0.0.15   C Listener TCP-port:  2016                     Listener Type:  TELNET  Identification:t Ports:              16 Connections:        Enabled  IP Address:         90.0.0.15.    2 ST Wong <st-wong@alumni.cuhk.net> wrote in message7 news:28073c51.0308050345.34eb3715@posting.google.com...z
 > Hi, all, > F > I've 4 old DS10L without console.  They're connected to an DECserverC > 90M.  Although i can access the DECserver using a terminal, but IsD > can't access the console of those DS10L through the DECserver 90M.+ > Here comes some commands output I tried :c >e3 > -------------------- cut here -------------------, > Local > show nodea >s. > Node Name        Status       Identification > ? > SYSTEM2          Unknown      Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 LAT NODE ? > SYSTEM3          Unknown      Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 LAT NODE.? > SYSTEM4          Reachable    Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 LAT NODEh >  > Local > show node system2  >n >oD > Node: SYSTEM2                           Address: 08-00-2B-86-ED-7DD > LAT Protocol:     V5.2                  Data Link Frame Size: 1500 >e1 > Identification: Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 LAT NODEd >n > Node Groups:  0s >  > 5 > Service Name      Status     Rating  Identification  > A > SYSTEM2           Available      65  Compaq Tru64 UNIX V5.1 LATb	 > SERVICEm >  > Local > show port 1-2  > A > Port  1: ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@              Server: LAT_00606D93552C/ >/H > Character Size:            8           Input Speed:               9600H > Flow Control:            XON           Output Speed:              9600H > Parity:                 None           Signal Control:        Disabled > Stop Bits:           Dynamic > H > Access:                Local           Local Switch:              NoneH > Backwards Switch:       None           Name:                    PORT_1H > Break:                 Local           Session Limit:                4H > Forwards Switch:        None           Type:                      AnsiH > Default Protocol:        LAT           Default Menu:              NoneH > Autolink Timer One:10 Two:10           Dialer Script:             None >n > Preferred Service: Nonee > Authorized Groups:   0 > (Current)  Groups:   0 >c > Enabled Characteristics:D > Autobaud,  Autoprompt,  Broadcast,  Failover,  Input Flow Control, > Lock,mH > Loss Notification,  Message Codes,  Output Flow Control,  Verification >aA > Port  2:                               Server: LAT_00606D93552Cr >eH > Character Size:            8           Input Speed:               9600H > Flow Control:            XON           Output Speed:              9600H > Parity:                 None           Signal Control:        Disabled > Stop Bits:           Dynamic >xH > Access:               Remote           Local Switch:              NoneH > Backwards Switch:       None           Name:                    PORT_2H > Break:                 Local           Session Limit:                4H > Forwards Switch:        None           Type:                      AnsiH > Default Protocol:     Telnet           Default Menu:              NoneH > Autolink Timer One:10 Two:10           Dialer Script:             None >t > Preferred Service: Nonea > Authorized Groups:   0 > (Current)  Groups:   0 >s > Enabled Characteristics:D > Autobaud,  Autoprompt,  Broadcast,  Failover,  Input Flow Control, > Lock, H > Loss Notification,  Message Codes,  Output Flow Control,  Verification >e > Local > connect lat system2& >O3 > Local -234- Connection to SYSTEM2 not established  >             Service disabled >-3 > -------------------- cut here -------------------  >mH > The systems were previously installed with Tru64 Unix (by Compaq staffE > a long time ago) but the network configuration seems not ready yet.r >nH > I wonder if it's possible to access their console as I want to install, > RedHat on them.  Would anyone please help? >uG > Sorry that I'm new to Alpha machines and asked some newbie questions.S >c > Thanks a lot. 	 > ST Wongi   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Aug 2003 07:49:24 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)p< Subject: Re: pls help: install OS on DS10L without console ?3 Message-ID: <Ko$UXsT2u5jI@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  f In article <28073c51.0308051741.fc19ce1@posting.google.com>, st-wong@alumni.cuhk.net (ST Wong) writes: > G > Thanks, but too bad is that the terminal is not available now.  Now IeH > use the COM port of another Alpha machine running RedHat to access the > DECserver.  G    How about using one of the serial ports of the other Alpha to accesst@    the OPA0 port instead?  That's what I did when I first set upE    my hobbyist cluster with an Alpha workstation and a VAX server andCE    no VT.  Later on I got a VT320 locally for a few bucks, good thingt1    as my workstation's keyboard circuit is kaput.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:34:25 -0500o1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> K Subject: Re: PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processoro' Message-ID: <3F304D11.AC957A80@fsi.net>i   jlsue wrote: > 9 > On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:10:10 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"V  > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: >  > >jlsue wrote:e > >>< > >> On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:37:33 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"# > >> <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  > >> > >> >I > >> >EVA is still too immature for our environment (healthcare, Cerner).: > >> >[...] N > >> >Not my decision. Lotta folks upstream to get on board with it first (FDA# > >> >not being the least of them).e > >>P > >> I do believe that we have Cerner customers running OpenVMS, and using EVA +( > >> Business Copy EVA (i.e., snapshot). > >>O > >> And, yes, it can be done from a batch job (either with Business Copy - aka / > >> EVM - client tools, or with SSSU scripts).  > >h? > >That leaves the certification and the automation examples...  > M > Well, even though we do have Cerner sites using controller-based snapshots, M > I am aware that some sites would have to do their own certification to haveAJ > it "blessed" by the FDA.  There's just no way around this that I know ofK > for any solution.  Even the volume shadowing operations had to go throughcB > this certification.... at some point in time someone may need toL > bite-the-bullet and do the certification for the FDA.  We can't do much toG > motivate that effort, since it is an internal, business-driven issue.- > K > As to automation.... Business Copy/EVA and/or SSSU will do the automationgL > from the host.  How would you like to "see it in action"?  You could visit1 > a demo center or do a pilot project, I suppose.   C A sample of the DCL to make it happen would suffice. Private e-mail D might be best, though. Look at the reply-to of this post and I think you'll know what to do.   F Fitting that into SLS should be doable, if perhaps a bit convoluted...   -- e David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:19:30 GMTr& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>K Subject: Re: PR: HP Delivers Next Step on AlphaServer Roadmap: 32-processoru8 Message-ID: <pha2jv40eihmb13mmi8ldf1p5kcuiv82tq@4ax.com>  7 On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:34:25 -0500, "David J. Dachtera"e <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:     >sD >A sample of the DCL to make it happen would suffice. Private e-mailE >might be best, though. Look at the reply-to of this post and I think  >you'll know what to do.   Hmm... > G >Fitting that into SLS should be doable, if perhaps a bit convoluted...a  ( SSSU Scripts & dcl procedure on the way.  H You can execute the SSSU program interactively and type HELP to get some information/documentation.   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Aug 2003 08:48:23 -0700i( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski); Subject: Server consolidation & VMS - "Back to the Future"!D= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0308060748.646acdfe@posting.google.com>o  0 this was my prediction years ago when 80,000 box farms were the rave ...F  9 http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=03/08/06/5102511    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:57:10 -0400$ From: "rob kas" <news@paychoice.com>? Subject: Re: Server consolidation & VMS - "Back to the Future"!t/ Message-ID: <vj29t81qeblrc7@corp.supernews.com>h  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messagea7 news:d7791aa1.0308060748.646acdfe@posting.google.com... 2 > this was my prediction years ago when 80,000 box > farms were the rave ...C >$; > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=03/08/06/5102511   J             Now if only if had a working Browser, and Marketing life would	 be great.o      7                                                     Robi   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:20:49 -0500e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ? Subject: Re: Server consolidation & VMS - "Back to the Future"! ' Message-ID: <3F312AE1.F2B8E567@fsi.net>1   Bob Ceculski wrote:  > 2 > this was my prediction years ago when 80,000 box > farms were the rave ...e > ; > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=03/08/06/5102511   2 I posted this in the General Forum on OpenVMS.org:  G Bob Gezelter's article here on OpenVMS.org makes a point that the folkseE over on comp.os.vms have known for many years: the days of "gazillion G server" "farms" seem to be waning, and the return to large, centralizedS# computing centers are reappearing.    G VMware attempts to address the ISVs' tendencies to assume total controlOG of the operating environment by enabling multiple virtual machines on arF single IA32 server. Many Wintel app.'s today will not "play nice" withF other app.'s on the same machine, not to mention Windows's tendency toE not remain stable in stressful environments (Windows "goes postal"?).,  A Alpha (and, hopefully, Itanium) galaxies provide similar hope forS) tomorrow'w world of consolidated servers.    Will OpenVMS be a player?d  H Given HP's reluctance to blow VMS's horn, I believe it is up to us - theE small business people out here on the front line - to bring VMS up tol its full potential.n  C Yes, it will be costly, especially as HP will not be assisting with D marketing costs for our VMS ventures. Still, I believe the long-termH rewards will be there. VMS has staying power, despite decades of neglect and "unmarketing".    H I believe the time is now, more than it has been in a while, to take theH ball and run with it. Do what HP refuses to do: Bring the VMS message toG the streets and remind the world what reliability, security and restfula nights are all about.    David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems    P.S.:7B Universal permission is hereby given to use any and all statementsC appearing in this post in any way that does not violate any law yetoF still promotes OpenVMS and/or DJE Systems. Negative uses are expressly) forbidden - violators will be prosecuted.s   Also posted to comp.os.vms.e   -- c David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:16:22 GMTp; From: "John Gemignani, Jr." <jon-nope@thiswontworkossc.net> ? Subject: Re: Server consolidation & VMS - "Back to the Future"!c; Message-ID: <GJaYa.9928$jg.2813082@news1.news.adelphia.net>f  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3F312AE1.F2B8E567@fsi.net...n > Bob Ceculski wrote:r > >s4 > > this was my prediction years ago when 80,000 box > > farms were the rave ...u > >t= > > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=03/08/06/5102511p >r4 > I posted this in the General Forum on OpenVMS.org: >NI > Bob Gezelter's article here on OpenVMS.org makes a point that the folks G > over on comp.os.vms have known for many years: the days of "gazillionuI > server" "farms" seem to be waning, and the return to large, centralized $ > computing centers are reappearing. >tI > VMware attempts to address the ISVs' tendencies to assume total control I > of the operating environment by enabling multiple virtual machines on a H > single IA32 server. Many Wintel app.'s today will not "play nice" withH > other app.'s on the same machine, not to mention Windows's tendency toG > not remain stable in stressful environments (Windows "goes postal"?).  >oC > Alpha (and, hopefully, Itanium) galaxies provide similar hope fori+ > tomorrow'w world of consolidated servers.  >s > Will OpenVMS be a player?h >VJ > Given HP's reluctance to blow VMS's horn, I believe it is up to us - theG > small business people out here on the front line - to bring VMS up toa > its full potential.   "     Everyone stand up and applaud.  H     When I was younger ... gather around you fresh college graduates ...A     we used to have to PROGRAM the computers to make them do what D     we wanted, and we would find ways to do what we needed, and even,     produce something new and revolutionary.  J     Nowadays with the push onto "industry standard" hardware and software,J     people are stuck with what's out there, forcing your business into yet another I     "industry standard", where you don't really have an IT staff anymore.  You areEK     buying off the shelf and forcing your business model to conform to whate younJ     bought (granted, you did think about the purchases beforehand but what was      the available selection?)u   > E > Yes, it will be costly, especially as HP will not be assisting with F > marketing costs for our VMS ventures. Still, I believe the long-termJ > rewards will be there. VMS has staying power, despite decades of neglect > and "unmarketing".  K     But keep in mind that the subsequent rewards fall mostly into the handsnL     of those who produce (and market, and sell), and associated system salesH     with VMS from HP (IMHO) won't entice HP into bringing about the true     VMS renaissance.       So:i  3         IF (VMS runs on mix-and-match hardware) ANDgH             (the "other creative ones" in the field make it do much more+                     than off-the-shelf VMS).         THENE             I'd like to believe that VMS may gain in popularity againg4             despite what the owner is doing with it;   >'J > I believe the time is now, more than it has been in a while, to take theJ > ball and run with it. Do what HP refuses to do: Bring the VMS message toI > the streets and remind the world what reliability, security and restfuln > nights are all about.o  H     I am finally getting around to doing some of the stuff that I alwaysE     wanted to do but never did because I was too busy doing stuff for      someone else.   	     -John   :     P.S. I'm going to take my Vaxes out of moth balls now.   >m > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systemsd >S > P.S.:eD > Universal permission is hereby given to use any and all statementsE > appearing in this post in any way that does not violate any law yetnH > still promotes OpenVMS and/or DJE Systems. Negative uses are expressly+ > forbidden - violators will be prosecuted.t >r > Also posted to comp.os.vms.  >i > -- o > David J. Dachteraa > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ >w* > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:58:42 GMTh9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>y< Subject: Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP1 Message-ID: <CI8Ya.1570$RQ3.336@news.cpqcorp.net>l  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message ' news:871xw6nn8n.fsf@prep.synonet.com...   ) > And that means no SDL on the good ship.h >c   SDL has been ported to C.m   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 20:00:34 -0700 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)O Subject: [OT] Re stopped clocks being right twice a day (was Re: HP FUDBusting) = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0308051900.17416847@posting.google.com>d  d "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<sNGcndpA9bpVtYSiU-KYgg@metrocast.net>... [...]d  6 > [...] but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.  B Thank you, Mr. Todd, for pointing out yet another advantage of theD am/pm system. A 24-hour clock, if it is analog, is right only once aD day. So in this respect, the 12-hour clock is twice as good! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)n  F (And a stopped 24-hour digital clock is never right! [well, that might! depend on the clock in question])C  D NTL, I prefer the 24-hour system for most purposes (assuming digital format).  F > Obscurity may help some, but even in an absolute sense VMS is almostJ > certainly more secure than most other systems out there, including Unix.  ( Almost? What do you mean, "almost"?  :-|   [...]f >  > - bill   IWYIWOT!   Alan E. Feldman-   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Aug 2003 06:46:01 -0500 B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)5 Subject: [OT] The Six Stages of Field Service Supportu3 Message-ID: <l1D8uLTTFeV+@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  F The following amusing (at least I found it amusing) link, mainly about/ DEC field service, turned up on Slashdot today:B  / http://nemesis.lonestar.org/stories/stages.htmle   Simon.   --  B Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       L VMS advocate: One who makes a Mac advocate look like a beginner at advocacy.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:58:41 GMTe& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>9 Subject: Re: [OT] The Six Stages of Field Service Support 8 Message-ID: <rkc2jvk2t0mbub9rlct53jg259gn0rlj3n@4ax.com>  J On 6 Aug 2003 06:46:01 -0500, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote:  G >The following amusing (at least I found it amusing) link, mainly abouti0 >DEC field service, turned up on Slashdot today: >r0 >http://nemesis.lonestar.org/stories/stages.html >o   LOL. k  I  We had a DEC field service guy where I used to work who could whistle at G the perfect (for human ears anyway) pitch to mimic those danged LA120s.B  F And, of course, if you had a cluster, every node would log every otherH node's messages.  So in an 8-node cluster, each console would log eventsI for all other 8 nodes, and in cluster transitions, for example, you'd getsK 64 messages/beeps for every event logged.... and there were usually quite aoH few messages associated with some higher-level events, so this could getI pretty annoying (some sites logged "login failures" to the console, which * would pile-up the paper off the consoles).  K Anyway, sometimes the FE would get a kick out of whistling like the consoleaE terminals, and the operators would go running frantically back to thea4 tables where they sat to find out what was going on.  # Ah well... cheap thrills I guess...    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.432 ************************'d have saved weeks of disk rebuilding time.   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Aug 2003 15:19:34 GMT 1 From: JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)f$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates: Message-ID: <bgr6a6$rom$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  + In message <3F2FEB55.C73F6F0@yk.rim.200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 14