1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 07 Aug 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 434       Contents:= Can VMS still be improved?  Yes!  (Was Re: Netware is no VMS) A Re: Can VMS still be improved?  Yes!  (Was Re: Netware is no VMS)  DS-35x-FA Dip switch settings A Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer  ES40 JPG or GIF 4 Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's?4 Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's?4 Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's?4 Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's?4 Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's?4 Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's?4 Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's?4 Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's?4 Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's?4 Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's?4 Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's?+ RE: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer + Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer ( Re: Licence manager and class scheduling( Re: Licence manager and class scheduling Re: Looking for NBL  Re: Looking for NBL  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: Netware is no VMS % Novell says VMS development stopping? ) Re: Novell says VMS development stopping? ) Re: Novell says VMS development stopping?  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Securing Oracle NET8 Listener 3 Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP + Turn $6 into $60,000 in 90 days, GUARANTEED  Re: WASD and RDB?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 08:27:42 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> F Subject: Can VMS still be improved?  Yes!  (Was Re: Netware is no VMS)' Message-ID: <3F326FEE.9060709@MMaz.com>    Bob Ceculski wrote:   [ >"Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote in message news:<3F313BD6.1010405@MMaz.com>...  >    > G >>A very interesting Linux project, which is underway, is a clustering  H >>project that creates a unified process space between cluster nodes so E >>that true load balancing and failover can occur when a member node  J >>either slows or dies...  There is no question that VMSclusters has lead G >>the way in clustering, but it was never completed to what would be a  J >>logical conclusion; Process failover/recovery and true load-balancing... >>K >>So, though I was not asked the question, yes I believe VMS can always be  G >>improved and features added, and this is just one central core issue   >>that is OS specific... >> >>Barry  >>     >> > D >and one of the guys working on this team is a former dec clusteringC >expert, and in an interview he said even though they might be able E >to come close, no one would ever achieve the level of vms clustering 	 >100% ...  > I Well, based on your information I can't comment on who this 'former' DEC  @ expert is because you didn't include his name, but there was an F extremely detailed writeup in the 2003 Sysadmin Clustering Supplement I discussing the OpenSSI project in detail and, frankly, if they implement  A everything discussed, the OpenSSI clustering will be better than  F VMSClusters many aspects.  For those that do not take this particular A rag because of its Unix roots, the link for more reading on this   specific article is:  8 http://www.samag.com/documents/s=8817/sam0313b/0313b.htm  D Bottom line, the Linux Open Source folks are attempting to tackle a I clustering issue that should have been handled long, long ago in a world   called Digital...   I Remember, the day we don't think VMS needs to be 'better' or can't learn  G from another technology, it is dead because nothing is perfect and VMS  > certainly isn't, though it may be close on most all fronts :-)   Barry    --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                            ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 12:49:28 -0500 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) J Subject: Re: Can VMS still be improved?  Yes!  (Was Re: Netware is no VMS)3 Message-ID: <VIb6DP4xrsHW@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <3F326FEE.9060709@MMaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes:  > Bob Ceculski wrote:  >   - > For those that do not take this particular  C > rag because of its Unix roots, the link for more reading on this   > specific article is:  : > http://www.samag.com/documents/s=8817/sam0313b/0313b.htm > F > Bottom line, the Linux Open Source folks are attempting to tackle a K > clustering issue that should have been handled long, long ago in a world   > called Digital...  >   < 	What on that punch list of 9 items can't or isn't performed8 	by VMS?  I don't see anything there that is not part of 	VMS other than:  K 9. Application/Resource Monitoring and Failover/Restart -- A subsystem that O takes certain user-defined actions when a node fails, or an application stops.    	 	respawn?    	cron:2:respawn:/usr/sbin/cron   	So VMS lacks respawn?  ? 	AIX with HACMP (failover clustering) does just that, start the @ 	application up on the fallover node.  And boy can it by painful? 	(not work) if things aren't synchronized properly (filesystems 8 	for example).  So maybe the Linux crowd improves HACMP.   				Rob    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:47:45 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> & Subject: DS-35x-FA Dip switch settings9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEMOHLAA.tom@kednos.com>   7 This is the personality module for a BA356, but I can't < locate any manual that will give the settings.  Anybody have( a URL ref or have the settings?  tia Tom --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:10:29 +0200/ From: Roland Barmettler <sendhere@spammail.com> J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer; Message-ID: <20030807181029.4b2224ea.sendhere@spammail.com>    Hi Bob  C >    I couldn't find the setting to get it to listen after a verbal E >    address (i.e. "hello computer"), only the one for getting it to  ! >    listen after pressing a key.   D In the Speech preferences, in the "On/Off" tab, set "apple speakableF items" to on, and in the "Listening" tab select "Key toggles listeningC on and off". The default is then apparently "on", but you still can 4 disable the speech recognition with the defined key.  D >    What's the point of pressing a key?  If I have to reach for the, >    keyboard I might as well use the thing.  1 I agree, there's absolutely no point in that. :-)    Greetins, Roland   -- ** Invalid bugcheck code **    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:41:49 -0500 ( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon) Subject: ES40 JPG or GIF1 Message-ID: <03080710414904@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   L Anyone have a quality image of a rackmount ES40?  One that could be used for advertising?  (Not that I am)   I The HP website only has a pedastal and I am in need of a rackmount image.    TIA      J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*n  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 08:32:33 +0100 + From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk> = Subject: Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's? 8 Message-ID: <cpv3jvgh47m0nsoiai2en47nnqh9k661sa@4ax.com>  F On 6 Aug 2003 15:14:41 -0700, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) wrote:  C >Now I've been given "stack" CD-R's and I've been getting many more @ >errors. I recently got 195 recoverable errors on a single disc.                         ^^^   G >MOUNT it, and do a BACKUP/IMAGE/COMPARE between that and the LD drive. D >BACKUP finds no errors, but the error count on the RRD43 was 195...9                                                     ^^^^^   I An RRD43 is not exactly modern.  It is (iirc) a 4-speed drive.  If memory L serves, slower drives than that were not designed to be able to read the lowI reflectivity from burned discs (compared to stamped), and it would not be J too surprising to find the RRD43 to be on the limit, or at least sensitive# to individual coating formulations.   6 >Would I be justified in asking for the more expensive1 >individually-packaged CD-R's that I used to use?   J I think I would certainly experiment with a few different brands if I were7 you.  None are what you could call "expensive" anyway !    --   John   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 08:24:54 +0200 C From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) = Subject: Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's? - Message-ID: <3f31f0b6$1@news.uni-konstanz.de>   = In article <b096a4ee.0308061414.4951f26d@posting.google.com>, 0 spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: |>Hello, |>D |>I have been asked to archive data to CDs. I used to have access toD |>CD-Rs that came in standard CD jewel cases. I used to get anywhereF |>from zero to only a few errors with the individually packaged CD-R's, |>that each come with its own CD jewel case. |>D |>Now I've been given "stack" CD-R's and I've been getting many moreG |>errors. I recently got 195 recoverable errors on a single disc. These . |>errors are produced during my "verify pass". |>E |>My Method: I prepare an LD logical disk. I copy the logical disk to B |>the CD-R on a CD-writer using CD_RECORD. Since the disk is neverB |>MOUNT-ed, I get, and expect, no errors during this part. Then, I3 |>unload the disc and load it into a CD-ROM device:  |>C |>Disk $1$DKA100: (NODEX), device type RRD43, is online, allocated,  |>deallocate on E |>    dismount, mounted, software write-locked, file-oriented device,  |>shareable, |>    error logging is enabled.  |>H |>MOUNT it, and do a BACKUP/IMAGE/COMPARE between that and the LD drive.B |>BACKUP finds no errors, but the error count on the RRD43 was 195H |>errors on a recent disc. They appear to be all recoverable errors, butF |>is it so many that some time in the future, due to scratches or what# |>not, I may lose some of the data?  |>7 |>Would I be justified in asking for the more expensive 2 |>individually-packaged CD-R's that I used to use? |>1 |>Thanks. A typical error message follows my sig.  |> |>Alan E. Feldman  |>   [snip]  H I think you CD-R is OK completely, but your CD-ROM-drive is dirty. Clean9 it with a lens cleaner CD and see if the problem is away.   D Remark: The program name is cdrecord not cd_record. The author JoergJ Schilling states in the readme file that it is illegal to change the name./ He has made bad experiences just in that point.    eberhard   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 08:35:13 +0200 C From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) = Subject: Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's? - Message-ID: <3f31f321$1@news.uni-konstanz.de>   A In article <1030806193646.1951B-100000@Ives.egh.com>, John Santos  <JOHN@egh.com> writes:' |>On 6 Aug 2003, Alan E. Feldman wrote:  |>
 |>> Hello, |>> F |>> I have been asked to archive data to CDs. I used to have access toF |>> CD-Rs that came in standard CD jewel cases. I used to get anywhereH |>> from zero to only a few errors with the individually packaged CD-R's. |>> that each come with its own CD jewel case. |>> F |>> Now I've been given "stack" CD-R's and I've been getting many moreI |>> errors. I recently got 195 recoverable errors on a single disc. These 0 |>> errors are produced during my "verify pass". |>> G |>> My Method: I prepare an LD logical disk. I copy the logical disk to D |>> the CD-R on a CD-writer using CD_RECORD. Since the disk is neverD |>> MOUNT-ed, I get, and expect, no errors during this part. Then, I5 |>> unload the disc and load it into a CD-ROM device:  |>H |>CD-R's tend to be labeled with a maximum write speed.  Most CD-writingG |>programs can be adjusted to write at various speeds (don't know about H |>CD_RECORD, though, as I've never used it.)  It may be that the cheaperD |>CD-R's that come in a stack have a slower max write speed than the: |>more expensive ones that come in individual jewel cases. |>4 |>Bottom line, try a lower write speed, if possible.  B That's not true. All CD-R(W) have an information on their surface,D which recording speed is allowed. cdrecord reads in this informationC and adjusts the speed parameter accordingly. There is a laser power A parameter, that is been adjusted, too. In some cases the laser of 6 cd-recorder gets old. Maybe this is your problem here.   |>F |>As far as long-term viability is concerned, my guess is you can readD |>the disks okay now because the drive is applying the ECC code, butG |>if it gets a scratch, and thus multiple bit errors in the same block,  |>ECC may not suffice any more.  |>D |>If the data on the disk is backup save-sets, and you used /CRC andA |>a reasonable /GROUP size, BACKUP may still be able to read them = |>when most other things can't, but if you lose the directory B |>structure or INDEXF.SYS, you may be out of luck.  It sounds likeB |>you haven't reached that point yet, but after a few scratches... |> |>--  
 |>John Santos  |>Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. |>781-861-0670 ext 539 |> |>  + Summary: Tell us how old is your equipment?    eberhard   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:31:18 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG= Subject: Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's? 0 Message-ID: <00A2403E.62656EE4@SendSpamHere.ORG>  n In article <b096a4ee.0308061414.4951f26d@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: >Hello,  > C >I have been asked to archive data to CDs. I used to have access to C >CD-Rs that came in standard CD jewel cases. I used to get anywhere E >from zero to only a few errors with the individually packaged CD-R's + >that each come with its own CD jewel case.  > C >Now I've been given "stack" CD-R's and I've been getting many more F >errors. I recently got 195 recoverable errors on a single disc. These- >errors are produced during my "verify pass".  > D >My Method: I prepare an LD logical disk. I copy the logical disk toA >the CD-R on a CD-writer using CD_RECORD. Since the disk is never A >MOUNT-ed, I get, and expect, no errors during this part. Then, I 2 >unload the disc and load it into a CD-ROM device: > B >Disk $1$DKA100: (NODEX), device type RRD43, is online, allocated, >deallocate onD >    dismount, mounted, software write-locked, file-oriented device, >shareable,  >    error logging is enabled. > G >MOUNT it, and do a BACKUP/IMAGE/COMPARE between that and the LD drive. A >BACKUP finds no errors, but the error count on the RRD43 was 195 G >errors on a recent disc. They appear to be all recoverable errors, but E >is it so many that some time in the future, due to scratches or what " >not, I may lose some of the data? > 6 >Would I be justified in asking for the more expensive1 >individually-packaged CD-R's that I used to use?   I It could be, just because of the age of the RRD43, that it is not able to J read the type of CD-R you are using.  Before you go out searching for someH new media, see if you can't replace the RRD43 with a newer CDrom such asI a RRD45/46/47.  I've have no problems reading CD-Rs on my RRD46 and 47; I  have noted issue on the RRD43.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 05:38:12 -0700 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)= Subject: Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's? = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0308070438.719f416f@posting.google.com>   x vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) wrote in message news:<3f31f0b6$1@news.uni-konstanz.de>...? > In article <b096a4ee.0308061414.4951f26d@posting.google.com>, 2 > spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:
 > |>Hello, > |>F > |>I have been asked to archive data to CDs. I used to have access toF > |>CD-Rs that came in standard CD jewel cases. I used to get anywhereH > |>from zero to only a few errors with the individually packaged CD-R's. > |>that each come with its own CD jewel case. > |>F > |>Now I've been given "stack" CD-R's and I've been getting many moreI > |>errors. I recently got 195 recoverable errors on a single disc. These 0 > |>errors are produced during my "verify pass". > |>G > |>My Method: I prepare an LD logical disk. I copy the logical disk to D > |>the CD-R on a CD-writer using CD_RECORD. Since the disk is neverD > |>MOUNT-ed, I get, and expect, no errors during this part. Then, I5 > |>unload the disc and load it into a CD-ROM device:  > |>E > |>Disk $1$DKA100: (NODEX), device type RRD43, is online, allocated,  > |>deallocate on G > |>    dismount, mounted, software write-locked, file-oriented device,  > |>shareable,! > |>    error logging is enabled.  > |>J > |>MOUNT it, and do a BACKUP/IMAGE/COMPARE between that and the LD drive.D > |>BACKUP finds no errors, but the error count on the RRD43 was 195J > |>errors on a recent disc. They appear to be all recoverable errors, butH > |>is it so many that some time in the future, due to scratches or what% > |>not, I may lose some of the data?  > |>9 > |>Would I be justified in asking for the more expensive 4 > |>individually-packaged CD-R's that I used to use? > |>3 > |>Thanks. A typical error message follows my sig.  > |> > |>Alan E. Feldman  > |> >  > [snip] > J > I think you CD-R is OK completely, but your CD-ROM-drive is dirty. Clean; > it with a lens cleaner CD and see if the problem is away.  > F > Remark: The program name is cdrecord not cd_record. The author JoergL > Schilling states in the readme file that it is illegal to change the name.1 > He has made bad experiences just in that point.  > 
 > eberhard  4 what is the difference between cdrecord and cdwrite?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:27:59 GMT 3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) = Subject: Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's? 1 Message-ID: <jBrYa.1673$FI4.793@news.cpqcorp.net>   f In article <cpv3jvgh47m0nsoiai2en47nnqh9k661sa@4ax.com>, John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk> writes:G >On 6 Aug 2003 15:14:41 -0700, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)  >wrote:  > D >>Now I've been given "stack" CD-R's and I've been getting many moreA >>errors. I recently got 195 recoverable errors on a single disc.  ..K >I think I would certainly experiment with a few different brands if I were 8 >you.  None are what you could call "expensive" anyway !   I agree with this suggestion. H This may be a bit dated, but some CD writers (hardware) have in the past: worked much better with one brand or another of blank CDs.   --  J       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 16:01:46 +0200 C From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) = Subject: Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's? - Message-ID: <3f325bca$1@news.uni-konstanz.de>   = In article <d7791aa1.0308070438.719f416f@posting.google.com>, * bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:H |>vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) wrote in3 |>message news:<3f31f0b6$1@news.uni-konstanz.de>... A |>> In article <b096a4ee.0308061414.4951f26d@posting.google.com>, 4 |>> spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: |>> |>Hello, |>> |>H |>> |>I have been asked to archive data to CDs. I used to have access toH |>> |>CD-Rs that came in standard CD jewel cases. I used to get anywhereJ |>> |>from zero to only a few errors with the individually packaged CD-R's0 |>> |>that each come with its own CD jewel case. |>> |>H |>> |>Now I've been given "stack" CD-R's and I've been getting many moreE |>> |>errors. I recently got 195 recoverable errors on a single disc.  |>These 2 |>> |>errors are produced during my "verify pass". |>> |>I |>> |>My Method: I prepare an LD logical disk. I copy the logical disk to F |>> |>the CD-R on a CD-writer using CD_RECORD. Since the disk is neverF |>> |>MOUNT-ed, I get, and expect, no errors during this part. Then, I7 |>> |>unload the disc and load it into a CD-ROM device:  |>> |>G |>> |>Disk $1$DKA100: (NODEX), device type RRD43, is online, allocated,  |>> |>deallocate on I |>> |>    dismount, mounted, software write-locked, file-oriented device,  |>> |>shareable,# |>> |>    error logging is enabled.  |>> |>E |>> |>MOUNT it, and do a BACKUP/IMAGE/COMPARE between that and the LD  |>drive.F |>> |>BACKUP finds no errors, but the error count on the RRD43 was 195H |>> |>errors on a recent disc. They appear to be all recoverable errors, |>but J |>> |>is it so many that some time in the future, due to scratches or what' |>> |>not, I may lose some of the data?  |>> |>; |>> |>Would I be justified in asking for the more expensive 6 |>> |>individually-packaged CD-R's that I used to use? |>> |>5 |>> |>Thanks. A typical error message follows my sig.  |>> |> |>> |>Alan E. Feldman  |>> |> |>> 
 |>> [snip] |>> F |>> I think you CD-R is OK completely, but your CD-ROM-drive is dirty. |>Clean = |>> it with a lens cleaner CD and see if the problem is away.  |>> H |>> Remark: The program name is cdrecord not cd_record. The author JoergH |>> Schilling states in the readme file that it is illegal to change the |>name. 3 |>> He has made bad experiences just in that point.  |>>  |>> eberhard |>6 |>what is the difference between cdrecord and cdwrite? |>   Uh,   J cdwrite was one of my first project that tries to access SCSI-devices with a C-program.D I did learn alot, now you can see the result in my DVDwrite-program.  J cdrecord is been written by an experienced programmer who knows what he is doing.3 I wrote the part, that is between cdrecord and VMS.    eberhard   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 16:05:08 +0200 C From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) = Subject: Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's? - Message-ID: <3f325c94$1@news.uni-konstanz.de>   1 In article <jBrYa.1673$FI4.793@news.cpqcorp.net>, 5 hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) writes: E |>In article <cpv3jvgh47m0nsoiai2en47nnqh9k661sa@4ax.com>, John Laird $ |><john@laird-towers.org.uk> writes:I |>>On 6 Aug 2003 15:14:41 -0700, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) 	 |>>wrote:  |>> F |>>>Now I've been given "stack" CD-R's and I've been getting many moreC |>>>errors. I recently got 195 recoverable errors on a single disc.  |>..H |>>I think I would certainly experiment with a few different brands if I |>were: |>>you.  None are what you could call "expensive" anyway ! |> |>I agree with this suggestion. J |>This may be a bit dated, but some CD writers (hardware) have in the past< |>worked much better with one brand or another of blank CDs.  G This is still the case. For example DVD burners only work with a number 
 of brands.   eberhard   |> |>--  H |>      Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  |>USA H |>          (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)@ |>      All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my
 |>employer's.  |> |>   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 10:04:44 -0700 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)= Subject: Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's? = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0308070904.7598baba@posting.google.com>   k John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk> wrote in message news:<cpv3jvgh47m0nsoiai2en47nnqh9k661sa@4ax.com>... H > On 6 Aug 2003 15:14:41 -0700, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) > wrote: > E > >Now I've been given "stack" CD-R's and I've been getting many more B > >errors. I recently got 195 recoverable errors on a single disc. >                         ^^^  > I > >MOUNT it, and do a BACKUP/IMAGE/COMPARE between that and the LD drive. F > >BACKUP finds no errors, but the error count on the RRD43 was 195...; >                                                     ^^^^^  > K > An RRD43 is not exactly modern.  It is (iirc) a 4-speed drive.  If memory N > serves, slower drives than that were not designed to be able to read the lowK > reflectivity from burned discs (compared to stamped), and it would not be L > too surprising to find the RRD43 to be on the limit, or at least sensitive% > to individual coating formulations.   D I will compare disk reading with both sets of CD-R's and report backC here. But this new large error rate is a relatively new phenomenon. B Either the new disks are bad or the drive has just recently gotten dirty.  8 > >Would I be justified in asking for the more expensive3 > >individually-packaged CD-R's that I used to use?  > L > I think I would certainly experiment with a few different brands if I were9 > you.  None are what you could call "expensive" anyway !   D Well, I was told by my dept. that I would only get the stack version due to cost.   Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 10:01:17 -0700 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)= Subject: Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's? = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0308070901.58d1732d@posting.google.com>   x vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) wrote in message news:<3f31f0b6$1@news.uni-konstanz.de>...? > In article <b096a4ee.0308061414.4951f26d@posting.google.com>, 2 > spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:
 > |>Hello, > |>F > |>I have been asked to archive data to CDs. I used to have access toF > |>CD-Rs that came in standard CD jewel cases. I used to get anywhereH > |>from zero to only a few errors with the individually packaged CD-R's. > |>that each come with its own CD jewel case. > |>F > |>Now I've been given "stack" CD-R's and I've been getting many moreI > |>errors. I recently got 195 recoverable errors on a single disc. These 0 > |>errors are produced during my "verify pass". > |>G > |>My Method: I prepare an LD logical disk. I copy the logical disk to D > |>the CD-R on a CD-writer using CD_RECORD. Since the disk is neverD > |>MOUNT-ed, I get, and expect, no errors during this part. Then, I5 > |>unload the disc and load it into a CD-ROM device:  > |>E > |>Disk $1$DKA100: (NODEX), device type RRD43, is online, allocated,  > |>deallocate on G > |>    dismount, mounted, software write-locked, file-oriented device,  > |>shareable,! > |>    error logging is enabled.  > |>J > |>MOUNT it, and do a BACKUP/IMAGE/COMPARE between that and the LD drive.D > |>BACKUP finds no errors, but the error count on the RRD43 was 195J > |>errors on a recent disc. They appear to be all recoverable errors, butH > |>is it so many that some time in the future, due to scratches or what% > |>not, I may lose some of the data?  > |>9 > |>Would I be justified in asking for the more expensive 4 > |>individually-packaged CD-R's that I used to use? > |>3 > |>Thanks. A typical error message follows my sig.  > |> > |>Alan E. Feldman  > |> >  > [snip] > J > I think you CD-R is OK completely, but your CD-ROM-drive is dirty. Clean; > it with a lens cleaner CD and see if the problem is away.   E This is the same CD-ROM drive that gave zero to only a few errors per A disk when I was using the individually packaged CD-R's. When time F permits I will try ANAL/DISK/READ samples from both sets of CD-R's and report back here.    > F > Remark: The program name is cdrecord not cd_record. The author JoergL > Schilling states in the readme file that it is illegal to change the name.1 > He has made bad experiences just in that point.   @ My apologies for getting the name wrong. I will call it CDRECORD henceforth.    > 
 > eberhard  = Thanks (and thanks to other responders) for your response(s).    Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 10:31:53 -0700 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)= Subject: Re: How many errors are too many when making CD-R's? = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0308070931.195b582f@posting.google.com>   ] John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in message news:<1030806193646.1951B-100000@Ives.egh.com>... ' > On 6 Aug 2003, Alan E. Feldman wrote:  > 
 > > Hello, > > F > > I have been asked to archive data to CDs. I used to have access toF > > CD-Rs that came in standard CD jewel cases. I used to get anywhereH > > from zero to only a few errors with the individually packaged CD-R's. > > that each come with its own CD jewel case. > > F > > Now I've been given "stack" CD-R's and I've been getting many moreI > > errors. I recently got 195 recoverable errors on a single disc. These 0 > > errors are produced during my "verify pass". > > G > > My Method: I prepare an LD logical disk. I copy the logical disk to D > > the CD-R on a CD-writer using CD_RECORD. Since the disk is neverD > > MOUNT-ed, I get, and expect, no errors during this part. Then, I5 > > unload the disc and load it into a CD-ROM device:  > H > CD-R's tend to be labeled with a maximum write speed.  Most CD-writingG > programs can be adjusted to write at various speeds (don't know about H > CD_RECORD, though, as I've never used it.)  It may be that the cheaperD > CD-R's that come in a stack have a slower max write speed than the: > more expensive ones that come in individual jewel cases. > 4 > Bottom line, try a lower write speed, if possible.     I'm already using 1X.     F > As far as long-term viability is concerned, my guess is you can readD > the disks okay now because the drive is applying the ECC code, butG > if it gets a scratch, and thus multiple bit errors in the same block,  > ECC may not suffice any more.  > D > If the data on the disk is backup save-sets, and you used /CRC andA > a reasonable /GROUP size, BACKUP may still be able to read them = > when most other things can't, but if you lose the directory B > structure or INDEXF.SYS, you may be out of luck.  It sounds likeB > you haven't reached that point yet, but after a few scratches...     Thanks for your advice.      Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:22:27 -0400# From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> 4 Subject: RE: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer: Message-ID: <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDKEJKDMAA.dallen@nist.gov>   > -----Original Message-----6 > From: Carl Perkins [mailto:carl@gergx.gerg.tamu.edu]* > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 5:44 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 6 > Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer >  > 7 > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes...  > }Peter Weaver wrote: > }>   > }> David J. Dachtera wrote: 	 > }> >... : > }> > My question is this: in WhineBloze Exploder, when a > }> directory with = > }> > sub.'s is highlighted, is there a keyboard shortcut to  > }> expand the list9 > }> > of subs without having to mouse and click the "+"?  > }>  9 > }> The Right Arrow does that, here are a few more keys;  > }>   > }> Press                 To C > }> END                   Display the bottom of the active window. @ > }> HOME                  Display the top of the active window.; > }> NUM LOCK+ASTERISK     Display all subfolders under the  > }> selected folder.  > }>   on numeric keypad (*)? > }> NUM LOCK+PLUS SIGN    Display the contents of the selected  > }> folder. > }>   on numeric keypad (+)8 > }> NUM LOCK+MINUS SIGN   Collapse the selected folder. > }>   on numeric keypad (-)= > }> LEFT ARROW            Collapse current selection if it's ' > }> expanded, or select parent folder. < > }> RIGHT ARROW           Display current selection if it's* > }> collapsed, or select first subfolder. > } * > }Excellent!! *MUCH* faster than mousing! > } D > }....and this is documented ...where? I'd like to spread the word. > }  > }--  > }David J. Dachtera > C > Somewhere in the help is a list of a bunch of keyboard shortcuts. D > I think these, or at least some of them, are on it. I have no ideaH > where to find the list. I have seen it several times, but it is almostD > impossible to find on purpose. As I recall it is a sub page off ofG > some accessibility related page, and it is not easy to find (or maybeoD > not possible to find) via the index or even the search function ofE > the help. This is on Windows NT V4.0 - they may have made it easiera2 > to find since then (but I wouldn't count on it).  K 	On W2K it's as simple as HELP->Shortcuts. Topics for Windows shortcut keysa$ 	as well as various apps are listed.   	Dan > E > The list also seems to be included in 3rd party books on how to use I > the thing. It's probably posted all over the place on the web as well - & > there is one on the MS website here: > @ > http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q126/4/49.asp > B > (That's a simplified URL, actually - the one it ends up using is > strangely convoluted.) > A > This set is under "Windows Explorer Tree Control" on that page.  > K > The page states that it is for the various versions from 95 to Millenium, I > but most (or possibly all) of them work with the NT through XP set too.e > J > You can gets lists for specific MS products, including operating systemsI > such as Windows 2000 or XP but (strangely) not plain old NT, from here:e > F > http://www.microsoft.com/enable/products/keyboard/keyboardsearch.asp > G > The on-line help for Windows is sometimes/frequently not helpful, but F > there is a huge volume of info on the web at microsoft.com and other > places, too. > 
 > --- Carl >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:19:01 GMTa" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer0 Message-ID: <00A2403C.AAB2E022@SendSpamHere.ORG>  f In article <npr1jvkour18ab2uoqtkfhv047pohi5hb0@4ax.com>, John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk> writes:D >On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:18:14 GMT, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >eh >>In article <6hsviv4n7d38isf0ddkeuvhgnq4il3e9pe@4ax.com>, John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk> writes:O >>>On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:47:05 +0100, "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com> wrote:r >>>rK >>>>Even if it has been renamed, you _must_ somethere on your screen have a   >>>>(cringe) 'My Computer' icon.O >>>>Find it, then (assuming you are not using a left hand mouse) RIGHT click ons
 >>>>the icon.c >>>rK >>>Even easier is to hold down the "Windows" key and press E (for Explore).o >> >>"Windows" key? >iE >They are between the Ctrl and Alt keys on my keyboard.  Along with auG >"right-click menu" shortcut, they constitute the extra 3 keys when theuJ >standard PC kb went from 102 to 105 keys.  (I couldn't be very precise on >the time-frame.)e  L OK.  Just looked at one...  It has a little warped window on it (a good logo8 IMHO as Windows is so warped!).  Never knew its purpose.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMr            e5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" t   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:26:00 GMTf" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG4 Subject: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer0 Message-ID: <00A2403D.A44BEAFF@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Z In article <3f30f0f8$1@cpns1.saic.com>, Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes: >Bradford J. Hamilton wrote:] >> In article <3f2fed1e$1@cpns1.saic.com>, Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes:l >> !Bradford J. Hamilton wrote:M	 >> !snip!aU >> !> (Of course, not every MGM/PHB *really* feels this way - I know of an owner of a,R >> !> small business who thinks that Word is a POS, and laments the loss of WP for >> !> VMS.)	:-)a >> !M >> !Beg pardon?  Why would he lament a loss that doesn't exist?  WP is still  K >> !available for VMS with both character-cell and X-Window support.  I've  > >> !got a recently purchased copy running my system right now. >> ! >> e >> Hi Mark,t >> nP >> After my original post, I Google'd some links which led me to believe that WPO >> was still available - it may be, but AFAIK, not from Corel.  Is it a currentaN >> version of WP, or is it WP 5.1?  What kind of support is available for it? : >> Please post a link or two that I might be able to view. >CG >It is available from Legacy2000 (http://www.legacy-2000.com) and both  I >5.1 and 7.1 are shipped with the same order.  It is a supported product oD >but, since I haven't needed support, I have no knowledge as to the  >quality of support.  F (Having some inside knowledge) Support for the products that you find $ on the Legacy web site is excellent.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMo            d5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:16:37 GMTt& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>1 Subject: Re: Licence manager and class schedulingo8 Message-ID: <oku4jv0cjh7nr0gq8gk2rs279djtiqquet@4ax.com>  H On 6 Aug 2003 09:44:52 -0700, jbrankin@ntlworld.com (Jim Brankin) wrote:  B >I have a suggestion for an enhancement to VMS. How about coupling1 >class based scheduling with the licence manager.t >[...]  C Back when I was the system manager for VMScluster systems, I foughteD tooth-and-nail with vendors to do concurrent user licensing.  Mostly? because we had over 250 apps on the cluster, wanted to use theme? cluster-wide (i.e., not dedicated on one system); and yet, that I Oracle-based application would only need 100 concurrent users, regardlessl0 of the fact that we had the "capacity" for 2000.  G The VMS License Manager provides some reasonable way to meter that in amC mostly consistent manner (units + activity code).  Although the VMS-G Concurrent-use license always had some issues (e.g., how do you count a<C batch job's DECterm - as an interactive user?), most other software 2 products were pretty easy to count concurrent-use.  J Unfortunately, with the migration of most of the IT universe to single-appK servers, interest in concurrent-use licenses has dropped off significantly.T  8 Maybe consolidation will bring it back to the spotlight.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:27:11 -0400+ From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.com>-1 Subject: Re: Licence manager and class scheduling04 Message-ID: <f_vYa.3035$Gf3.13862@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  . Yes, Galaxy is great, but not cheap I'm sure !   -- Syltrema   OpenVMS 7.3-1 + Oracle 8.1.7.4H http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site, en franais)% ---zulu is not in my email address---tB "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> a crit dans le message de news:G FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB0C7A6D@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net...c Jim,  : Re: licensing, class scheduler and server consolidation ..  G The savings in a server consolidation project are typically in reducingTH the number of one app one servers and moving these apps to fewer serversE with bigger cpu's. The trade-off is that now you have to be concerned G with one application (or group of processes) taking over more resources : than their share of the system and impacting other groups.  H Hence, to enforce various service levels in place, a class scheduler (orE workload manager) is used to restrict specific workloads so that they@@ never take over more than x% of the cpu resources on the system.  G This is also where Galaxy can assist as well. If two applications do norB play together well (for whatever reason), then you can put them onC separate OS partitions and let the Galaxy software dynamically movec@ cpu's back and forth between the 2+ OS instances as the workload? changes. You can also set Galaxy up for managing resources with-H something like "move 3 cpu's from the mid tier App Server after 21:00 onG InstanceA to the database /batch server on instanceB to assist in dailytD crunching, but then move the 3 cpu's back at 06:00 to assist the App. Server deal with the daily interactive loads."  G I suspect what you are hinting at is actually something a bit different"E ie. resource based charging where detailed audit reports show exactly G how much CPU time each process utilized and the end user/business group A are charged accordingly. Its kind of like your hydro utility i.e.iG monthly billing based on historical estimate, but adjusted periodically." to deal with changes in workloads.   :-)    Regards^  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanto Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicesd Voice: 613-592-4660n Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)t OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM      >e > -----Original Message-----2 > From: Jim Brankin [mailto:jbrankin@ntlworld.com] > Sent: August 6, 2003 12:45 PMa > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  >d: > I have a suggestion for an enhancement to VMS. How about; > coupling class based scheduling with the licence manager.e > < > The object of the exercise would be to licence software to< > use a certain percentage of the resources of a machine. It< > seems to me that this would encourage server consolidation" > and that this would benefit VMS. >H> > The cost of software licences frequently varies with the CPU? > power of the machine, sometimes with the amount of memory and16 > almost never with the capacity of the I/O subsystem. >l< > It seems to me that this works against VMS, which can walk: > and chew gum at the same time. You can run more than one> > application on a single machine whereas in the Microsoft and > Linux worlds that is rare.< > But if you run two apps on the one machine you pay licence< > fees as though each application had the machine to itself.F > This encourages folk to use the one machine / one application model. >r4 > Now, if you could buy a licence which said that an= > application will use only half the CPU power of the machined= > then the problem would be solved. It should be possible forn5 > the licence manager and the class based sheduler to,= > co-operate to provide this. Just add the schecduling  classd8 > and the percentage to the information specified in the> > licence and have the licence checking routine check that the7 > user id is in the right scheduling class and that the B > percentage of the machine available to that class is acceptable. >  >  > What do you think? >U > Jim/ >P >  >w@ > -------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------0 >                          Pure Personal Opinion > 9 >                        brankin at nildram dot co dot uki@ > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- >>   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 16:25:57 +0200y' From: huber@mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber)  Subject: Re: Looking for NBL+ Message-ID: <62RfIZNuRHBo@vms.mppmu.mpg.de>   f In article <i942jvk5jv1r8m4o67s51e067cosoh1qhu@4ax.com>, John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk> writes:@ > As subject - need to be able to send attachments via UCX SMTP. > M > Arne's site appears to have disappeared, and it looks like it never made itl > to any Freeware distribution.e       It has not disappeared,n;   this URL works for me: ftp://ftp.levitte.org/~ava/vms/nbl-  - --  >    Joseph "Sepp" Huber, Muenchen   http://www.huber-joseph.de/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:20:37 +0100t+ From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk>3 Subject: Re: Looking for NBL8 Message-ID: <s925jv8j5f74j81kiefl4k690nnu6v69m5@4ax.com>  F On 7 Aug 2003 16:25:57 +0200, huber@mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber) wrote:  g >In article <i942jvk5jv1r8m4o67s51e067cosoh1qhu@4ax.com>, John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk> writes:RA >> As subject - need to be able to send attachments via UCX SMTP.  >> zN >> Arne's site appears to have disappeared, and it looks like it never made it  >> to any Freeware distribution. >  >  >  It has not disappeared,< >  this URL works for me: ftp://ftp.levitte.org/~ava/vms/nbl  H I'll follow that up when the ftp server stops telling me its reached its	 limit :-)   I A colleague has come up with an alternative method.  Since the problem is J the blank line that is inserted somewhere between MAIL and UCX/SMTP, whichH prevents some mail clients spotting the mime stuff that tools like MPACKG generate into the "body", he thought it would be easier to add the mimeRL headers into the headers that are present.  By creating a multi-line subjectJ header containing cr/lf pairs, we have got something working.  It would beK nicer still if MAIL accepted more than one file-spec (we have to append theo2 genuine mail body to a content/boundary preamble).   -- e John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:16:52 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS2 Message-ID: <E8ucnVA0o5JqYayiXTWJkA@metrocast.net>  + "Dirk Munk" <munk@home.nl> wrote in message , news:bgsotd$6ol$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...   ...a  4 > AFAIK the Unix stuff is what we get with VMS 7.3-2   I'm pretty sure not.   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:27:59 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS2 Message-ID: <fBCdnfnIRMsMYqyiXTWJiw@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:lGeqfr8i1gsm@eisner.encompasserve.org...f   ...t  & > I keep returning to this one.  TRAM:  K Whether TRAM or MRAM, it's not useful without significant core OS changes -e7 which effectively entail using a journaled file system.i  I Journaling can in some cases be grafted onto an existing file system, but L it's still a major effort.  In VMS's case, this is significantly exacerbatedH by clustering:  ODS-2/5 depends upon careful, *write-through* updates toH share data safely among cluster members - and TRAM/MRAM can't help that,= because unlike the storage itself the TRAM/MRAM isn't shared.M  D You could cobble together something that would keep data retained inI TRAM/MRAM locked until someone else wanted it, at which point it would be.H destaged to disk so that it could be safely shared.  However, this wouldL require more file system changes (currently, at the file system level sharedG data can be unlocked after being written to disk, so the fiction that atK write to TRAM/MRAM was equivalent to a disk write would have to be broken).r  K What it boils down to is that TRAM/MRAM would require sufficient changes to L VMS that you'd be better off starting from scratch with a new journaled fileH system (at least assuming that was also desired) containing the kinds ofK cluster specialization noted above, and then use the TRAM/MRAM, if present,n to hold its log.   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:45:00 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS2 Message-ID: <nY6cndhuz9ESnq-iXTWJiQ@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:KByM6ZZQjhd2@eisner.encompasserve.org...m@ > In article <UoSdnciTA-TCMayiXTWJjg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >M7 > > "jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in messageh6 > > news:ueb2jvs5e4upk428af4h2orv3bu1j3vvfg@4ax.com... > >  > > ...  > >9L > >> What new features do you believe are needed above what's already in the
 > >> roadmap?t > >oH > > How about that new file system that VMS developers have been talking aboutt > > for 3 - 4 years now? > >n >k > Back to February:n >e >iL http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=rdeininger-2202030718590001%40user-uinj0 4lr.dialup.mindspring.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain >d@ > In article <G8ednVIlc4atTsujXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"! > <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:e >cJ > >> I doubt enhancements to TPU will get higher priority than, say, a new file > >> system. > >4F > >And since plans for a new file system seem to have pretty much beenK > >languishing for over three years now, with no obvious progress (not even  alB > >mention on the roadmap through early 2005), well, draw your own conclusions. > J > What makes you think the file system has been languishing?  Just because > nothing has shipped?  K Don't be a dolt, Rob:  not only has nothing shipped, but there's not a damn6H thing about it on the pitiful VMS roadmap you've been touting as 'proof'# that development is alive and well.3  J My comments (which you didn't bother to quote) in the c.o.v. posting which6 you cited still seem a more than adequate explanation:   <quote>w  ? > Just to tick off a few of the reasons off the top of my head:C > H > 1.  When I visited ZK to discuss it [December, 1999], it had no usefulG > budget, no defined commitment, and only a single developer associatedi  > with it (I suspect part-time). > F > 2.  That developer didn't think that significant enhancements to theI > existing Scotland code would be funded:  it was clearly on a very shortv
 > shoestring.n >sG > 3.  Indeed, in the three years since, it hasn't shipped (or even been> > rumored to be on the way). >lI > 4.  And, as noted, it doesn't appear anywhere in the future VMS roadmap  > (through early 2005).  >nK > Now, I suppose some people might be entirely satisfied with that state of ' > affairs; me, I call it 'languishing'.O   </quote>   >  >>L http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=v5kru8khbin516%40corp.supernews.com&oe= UTF-8&output=gplainm >t > re: new file systemt >oG > At our last LUG meeting here in Chicago, we heard that a new VMS filea systemG > is being worked on.  There were lessons learned the last time around.   F As I noted above, it 'was being worked on' back in late 1999 (not evenK starting from scratch, but leveraging an already-complete code base from antK earlier effort).  That gives you a pretty good idea of the kind of priority  it's been given.   ...   J > > But there should be people around here in a far better position than I am toi) > > make up a list of desirable features.? > A > Why not?  You know enough about OSes.  Many of your ideas would> > apply to VMS, wouldn't they?  I If HP had any interest in increasing VMS usage outside the existing base,.K perhaps.  Otherwise, active users are in the best position to say what theye
 need or want.a   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 06:04:44 -0700e( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0308070504.3ff4e5c7@posting.google.com>r  Z "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote in message news:<3F313BD6.1010405@MMaz.com>... > G > A very interesting Linux project, which is underway, is a clustering :H > project that creates a unified process space between cluster nodes so E > that true load balancing and failover can occur when a member node nJ > either slows or dies...  There is no question that VMSclusters has lead G > the way in clustering, but it was never completed to what would be a  J > logical conclusion; Process failover/recovery and true load-balancing... > K > So, though I was not asked the question, yes I believe VMS can always be IG > improved and features added, and this is just one central core issue   > that is OS specific... >  > Barrye  C and one of the guys working on this team is a former dec clusteringbB expert, and in an interview he said even though they might be ableD to come close, no one would ever achieve the level of vms clustering 100% ...   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 08:06:32 -0500e+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS3 Message-ID: <KkMXA$PuHud9@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  _ In article <nY6cndhuz9ESnq-iXTWJiQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:d >   N > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=rdeininger-2202030718590001%40user-uinj2 > 4lr.dialup.mindspring.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain >>A >> In article <G8ednVIlc4atTsujXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"o" >> <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: >>K >> >> I doubt enhancements to TPU will get higher priority than, say, a new> > file
 >> >> system.1 >> >G >> >And since plans for a new file system seem to have pretty much beengL >> >languishing for over three years now, with no obvious progress (not even > a C >> >mention on the roadmap through early 2005), well, draw your owne > conclusions. >>K >> What makes you think the file system has been languishing?  Just becausez >> nothing has shipped?w > M > Don't be a dolt, Rob:  not only has nothing shipped, but there's not a damnsJ > thing about it on the pitiful VMS roadmap you've been touting as 'proof'% > that development is alive and well.1 >   ? 	Careful - follow the links.  The Google reference holds a key:o   selm=rdeiningerr  @ 	Those are his comments.  Someone on the inside looking out.  So< 	I'm not a dolt - you just aren't being very careful in your 	criticism.S   >>N > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=v5kru8khbin516%40corp.supernews.com&oe= > UTF-8&output=gplaint >> >> re: new file system >>H >> At our last LUG meeting here in Chicago, we heard that a new VMS file > systemH >> is being worked on.  There were lessons learned the last time around. > H > As I noted above, it 'was being worked on' back in late 1999 (not evenM > starting from scratch, but leveraging an already-complete code base from anaM > earlier effort).  That gives you a pretty good idea of the kind of priorityR > it's been given. >   B 	How do you know?  How do you know there isn't considerable design@ 	effort underway right now?  Should they make that public?  WhatC 	did the public know about Galaxy prior to November 1997?  I'm sureoF 	over its history there were dozens of secret VMS development efforts.  A 	In this case, it may be very necessary to be totally quiet about D 	the development.  Especially if like Galaxy a number of key patentsD 	would be applied for.  Are patents going to be applied for?  Maybe,A 	maybe not.  But the point is it isn't uncommon to keep something # 	that is very important underwraps.    > ...a > K >> > But there should be people around here in a far better position than It > am toh* >> > make up a list of desirable features. >>B >> Why not?  You know enough about OSes.  Many of your ideas would >> apply to VMS, wouldn't they?  > K > If HP had any interest in increasing VMS usage outside the existing base,sM > perhaps.  Otherwise, active users are in the best position to say what theyt > need or want.  >   A 	But a Chrysler, GM or Ford engineer designs an automobile, it isr@ 	up to the business managers to make it a success.  Even better B 	example - a family friend is working at a major auto manufacturerB 	in fuel cell development.  He knows full well his *YEARS* of workB 	may not even become a shipping product for many *YEARS* AFTER hisD 	work is completed.  Does that stop him from innovating and creating: 	and patenting the necessary technologies?  Of course not.  A 	Things could be worse, we could believe so much in our work thattA 	we continue to create even though no one purchases our paintingshE 	and we often go hungry.  We should be thankful we are in a different4 	profession.   				Robo   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:42:49 -0400$ From: "rob kas" <news@paychoice.com> Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS/ Message-ID: <vj4ptma8h3qdc2@corp.supernews.com>>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messaget7 news:d7791aa1.0308070504.3ff4e5c7@posting.google.com...l8 > "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote in message# news:<3F313BD6.1010405@MMaz.com>...m > >wH > > A very interesting Linux project, which is underway, is a clusteringI > > project that creates a unified process space between cluster nodes sonF > > that true load balancing and failover can occur when a member nodeK > > either slows or dies...  There is no question that VMSclusters has lead H > > the way in clustering, but it was never completed to what would be aL > > logical conclusion; Process failover/recovery and true load-balancing... > > L > > So, though I was not asked the question, yes I believe VMS can always beH > > improved and features added, and this is just one central core issue > > that is OS specific... > >s	 > > Barry9 >eE > and one of the guys working on this team is a former dec clusteringwD > expert, and in an interview he said even though they might be ableF > to come close, no one would ever achieve the level of vms clustering
 > 100% ...    ?                   Any and All Software can always be improved..    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:31:13 -04002 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS5 Message-ID: <20030807153113.GD15685@eisenschmidt.org>d  > I'm always sort of amused at how worked up people get over VMSF development (especially since we all laud how close to perfect it is).C I have a question though: how many developers does HP actually havevD working on VMS? I know it's not a really great metric, but I've seenF roadmaps and project plans from vendors only to find out they have two developers.   = Rumor has it that Rob Young (young_r@encompasserve.org) said:na > In article <nY6cndhuz9ESnq-iXTWJiQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:R > >  > P > > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=rdeininger-2202030718590001%40user-uinj4 > > 4lr.dialup.mindspring.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain > >>C > >> In article <G8ednVIlc4atTsujXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"i$ > >> <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: > >>M > >> >> I doubt enhancements to TPU will get higher priority than, say, a newr > > file > >> >> system.e > >> >I > >> >And since plans for a new file system seem to have pretty much been N > >> >languishing for over three years now, with no obvious progress (not even > > a-E > >> >mention on the roadmap through early 2005), well, draw your owny > > conclusions. > >>M > >> What makes you think the file system has been languishing?  Just because  > >> nothing has shipped?2 > > O > > Don't be a dolt, Rob:  not only has nothing shipped, but there's not a damn L > > thing about it on the pitiful VMS roadmap you've been touting as 'proof'' > > that development is alive and well.o > >  > A > 	Careful - follow the links.  The Google reference holds a key:  >  > selm=rdeiningera > B > 	Those are his comments.  Someone on the inside looking out.  So> > 	I'm not a dolt - you just aren't being very careful in your
 > 	criticism.s >  > >>P > > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=v5kru8khbin516%40corp.supernews.com&oe= > > UTF-8&output=gplain  > >> > >> re: new file system > >>J > >> At our last LUG meeting here in Chicago, we heard that a new VMS file
 > > systemJ > >> is being worked on.  There were lessons learned the last time around. > > J > > As I noted above, it 'was being worked on' back in late 1999 (not evenO > > starting from scratch, but leveraging an already-complete code base from ansO > > earlier effort).  That gives you a pretty good idea of the kind of priority  > > it's been given. > >  > D > 	How do you know?  How do you know there isn't considerable designB > 	effort underway right now?  Should they make that public?  WhatE > 	did the public know about Galaxy prior to November 1997?  I'm sure H > 	over its history there were dozens of secret VMS development efforts. > C > 	In this case, it may be very necessary to be totally quiet aboutoF > 	the development.  Especially if like Galaxy a number of key patentsF > 	would be applied for.  Are patents going to be applied for?  Maybe,C > 	maybe not.  But the point is it isn't uncommon to keep somethings% > 	that is very important underwraps.i >  > > ...e > > M > >> > But there should be people around here in a far better position than Ig	 > > am to , > >> > make up a list of desirable features. > >>D > >> Why not?  You know enough about OSes.  Many of your ideas would! > >> apply to VMS, wouldn't they?f > > M > > If HP had any interest in increasing VMS usage outside the existing base,eO > > perhaps.  Otherwise, active users are in the best position to say what theye > > need or want.A > >  > C > 	But a Chrysler, GM or Ford engineer designs an automobile, it iseB > 	up to the business managers to make it a success.  Even better D > 	example - a family friend is working at a major auto manufacturerD > 	in fuel cell development.  He knows full well his *YEARS* of workD > 	may not even become a shipping product for many *YEARS* AFTER hisF > 	work is completed.  Does that stop him from innovating and creating< > 	and patenting the necessary technologies?  Of course not. > C > 	Things could be worse, we could believe so much in our work thatlC > 	we continue to create even though no one purchases our paintings G > 	and we often go hungry.  We should be thankful we are in a different  > 	profession. > 	 > 				Robo   -- e/ John W. Eisenschmidt (jweisen@eisenschmidt.org)o.   http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/pgp.html  L "I'm curious to try [DB2] out, since Oracle is much more sinister than IBM."   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:02:27 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS8 Message-ID: <lvt4jv0pjanlkflg4jmnieo3tti9ejpgr4@4ax.com>  I On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:33:10 -0700, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>  wrote:   >oF >A very interesting Linux project, which is underway, is a clustering G >project that creates a unified process space between cluster nodes so aD >that true load balancing and failover can occur when a member node I >either slows or dies...  There is no question that VMSclusters has lead dF >the way in clustering, but it was never completed to what would be a I >logical conclusion; Process failover/recovery and true load-balancing...m >i  I This is really cool, until you realize that the process that just crashede= system1 got failed over to system2 (then system3, system4...)   J >So, though I was not asked the question, yes I believe VMS can always be F >improved and features added, and this is just one central core issue  >that is OS specific...m  G I reaize that there are some improvements that some may find good.  I'm ! just curious what those would be.s   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 09:22:41 -0700e1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)a Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS- Message-ID: <nRc$8g+jgwRm@malvm7.mala.bc.ca.>c  9 In article <lvt4jv0pjanlkflg4jmnieo3tti9ejpgr4@4ax.com>, t,     jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> writes:   >>G >>A very interesting Linux project, which is underway, is a clustering  H >>project that creates a unified process space between cluster nodes so E >>that true load balancing and failover can occur when a member node eJ >>either slows or dies...  There is no question that VMSclusters has lead G >>the way in clustering, but it was never completed to what would be a rJ >>logical conclusion; Process failover/recovery and true load-balancing... >> > K > This is really cool, until you realize that the process that just crashedi? > system1 got failed over to system2 (then system3, system4...)t > H    ISTM that if user-mode code can crash your system you need to addressD that problem, rather than use it as an excuse to not have cross-node process failover.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 09:29:33 -0700D+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>M Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS' Message-ID: <3F327E6D.5080402@MMaz.com>    jlsue wrote:  J >On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:33:10 -0700, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> >wrote:t >  h >nG >>A very interesting Linux project, which is underway, is a clustering eH >>project that creates a unified process space between cluster nodes so E >>that true load balancing and failover can occur when a member node  J >>either slows or dies...  There is no question that VMSclusters has lead G >>the way in clustering, but it was never completed to what would be a oJ >>logical conclusion; Process failover/recovery and true load-balancing... >> >>     >> >lJ >This is really cool, until you realize that the process that just crashed> >system1 got failed over to system2 (then system3, system4...) > G Bah, non-sense!  You must be talking about Windows, because this isn't n. an issue with VMS nor most flavors of Unix...   F Think about it, when is the last time you had a rogue VMS application D take down a VMS system?  With the exception of a faulty driver that F couldn't handle unexcepted device failures, I have not had a software F based VMS failure for over a decade and that was Kernel code!  As for I user-mode code crashing on VMS, I can't think of much except perhaps EDT a? on VMS 1.0 but that was all RSX based stuff...  In the case of sH Supervisor or Executive code, if the code faults, it kills the process,  not the system...o   Barryi   -- r  > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                            ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:03:33 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS) Message-ID: <bgt85l$8u8$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>l  U In article <3F313BD6.1010405@MMaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes:a
 >jlsue wrote:s >lI >>On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:15:10 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>t >>wrote: >>   >>K >>>Er, no, it does not.  It shows VMS development through *2005* - and withsJ >>>precious little detail (not even a specific *version* number) about theO >>>projected 2005 release (e.g., *no* new features defined - just 'performance,oD >>>security, storage, standards', which could mean next to nothing). >>>rN >>>For example, the following slides show a single 2005 feature - 'new clusterJ >>>interconnect' (and that limited to Itanic platforms - so much for AlphaO >>>equivalence) - plus some 'future investigations' which are explicitly statedsN >>>*not* to be commitments (not that 'commitment' carries much weight anyway). >>>    n >>>l >>1 >>I know this take us a little off-topic, but....  >>I >>What new features do you believe are needed above what's already in the-F >>roadmap?  For me, at this point, I don't see any real missing killerJ >>feature that's both feasible (i.e., not something like process migration' >>between cluster nodes), and valuable.r >>   >> >aF >A very interesting Linux project, which is underway, is a clustering G >project that creates a unified process space between cluster nodes so SD >that true load balancing and failover can occur when a member node I >either slows or dies...  There is no question that VMSclusters has lead 4F >the way in clustering, but it was never completed to what would be a I >logical conclusion; Process failover/recovery and true load-balancing...v >   E Process migration when one system is overloaded might be possible ando
 desirable.I Though you would then have to be watch out for a new type of "Thrashing".hL System A in the cluster appears to be overload  - pick a process to migrate N (making sure of course it is not one of the processes such as system processes1 for that system which HAS to run on that system).   * System B now running the migrated process.M System B now appears to be overloaded - pick a process to migrate to system A    etca  H No work done since cluster is spending all its time migrating processes.      ; Doing it for a crashing system is much much more difficult. 4 How much time do you have to migrate the processes ?A How corrupted had the memory structures become before the crash ?'O What happened during the inevitable delay between something going wrong and thefO OS noticing that there was such a major problem it's only solution was to crash) ?a  O The only solution would be to checkpoint all the processes at intervals to disknE so that they could restart from the checkpoint. You would also need afO journaling filesystem so you could back out all the changes made by the process<M between its last checkpoint and the crash.  All this checkpointing would slowp down processing. e    N Also unless the system reviving the crashed processes knew exactly what causedL the crash it is quite likely you would rerun the reason for the crash on the# node you migrated the processes to.y  uL Personally I doubt its feasible and I've probably missed out other problems.    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University      J >So, though I was not asked the question, yes I believe VMS can always be F >improved and features added, and this is just one central core issue  >that is OS specific...a >b >Barry >  >  >--  >,? >Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com ? >Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320a? >Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028f >                        >g >- >0   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:12:08 GMTs/ From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks)s Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS- Message-ID: <axqJAZm4bqUw@cuebid.zko.dec.com>s  4 John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> writes:@ > I'm always sort of amused at how worked up people get over VMSH > development (especially since we all laud how close to perfect it is).E > I have a question though: how many developers does HP actually have-F > working on VMS? I know it's not a really great metric, but I've seenH > roadmaps and project plans from vendors only to find out they have two > developers.   K There are more than two of us in the OpenVMS Engineering group.  The numberbN of folks who work on the VMS kernel alone (which excludes all layered products and networking) is over 50.g   -- s  M Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.comm   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 06:00:55 -0700r( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski). Subject: Novell says VMS development stopping?= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0308070500.7829d855@posting.google.com>s   Here are the links ...  , http://news.com.com/2100-7252_3-5060413.html   ) http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10882    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:33:37 -0400$ From: "rob kas" <news@paychoice.com>2 Subject: Re: Novell says VMS development stopping?. Message-ID: <vj4pcet4l1i7c@corp.supernews.com>  =  Perhaps  he meant to say Marketing for VMS is stopping......e  G   Does anyone know when the small developers will be able to be able ton evaluate VMS on IA64?n  G   Since I doubt we's qualify / afford it,  is there anyone in South New,B Jersey  USA planning on taking a early look at the VMS/IA64 combo?  6                                                 thanks4                                                  rob    5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messager7 news:d7791aa1.0308070500.7829d855@posting.google.com...n > Here are the links ... >f. > http://news.com.com/2100-7252_3-5060413.html > + > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10882p   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Aug 2003 12:24:02 -0500M; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a2 Subject: Re: Novell says VMS development stopping?3 Message-ID: <HZlvvhxj$QKD@eisner.encompasserve.org>E  U In article <vj4pcet4l1i7c@corp.supernews.com>, "rob kas" <news@paychoice.com> writes:d >  > ? >  Perhaps  he meant to say Marketing for VMS is stopping......  > I >   Does anyone know when the small developers will be able to be able toa > evaluate VMS on IA64?h  G    According to the road map on the web site VMS 8.1 I64 is planned to eE    ship late CY 2003.  This is an early adopter's kit that will go totC    a wider audience than 8.0 did.  Since rx2600 booted VMS in MarchoE    I would suspect the cheapest systems might start in the $8K - $10Kn@    range (HP hasn't said, I'm guessing out loud based on current%    hardware shiping with another OS).r  H    If you've read earlier posts I've tried to get HP to think along the E    lines of making a system available on the web, and if they can getcE    warm fuzzies to us on that in c.o.v, they can probably get better mF    commitments to your business directly.  Have you tried asking them?  D    If that's too limitted for you, the general ship of 8.2 is on the    roadmap for early CY 2004.f   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 08:28:13 GMTt From: ian@hammo.com (paramucho)i$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates2 Message-ID: <3f3f0cd2.12775862@news.supernews.com>  F On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:23:22 -0000, m_thompson-NOSPAM@ids.net (Michael Thompson) wrote:  K >In article <INCdnVcZmYa9yqyiXTWJkw@metrocast.net>, billtodd@metrocast.net s >says... >> >>= >>"David Evans" <dfevans@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in messager+ >>news:bgril3$fnv$1@tabloid.uwaterloo.ca...k2 >>> In article <3F314E27.3010108@Flying-Disk.com>,0 >>> Alan Frisbie  <Abuse@Flying-Disk.com> wrote: >>> > D >>> >It is worst than that.   There are places in Altair BASIC whereE >>> >they saved space by jumping into the second byte of a three-bytei6 >>> >instruction!   Yes, it's true.   I'm not kidding. >>>yJ >>>   This sort of thing is still touted as "real, skilled programming" byC >>> some die-hard eight-bitters (what a good unintentional pun that H >>> was...).  I'm sure the practice would receive saged nods of approvalC >>> in, say, comp.sys.cbm.  Every now and then they go on about howhD >>> current software is bloated and crappy because programmers don't, >>> know these kinds of tools of efficiency. >>N >>Which is just about as idiotic as condemning the practice (and skill) in the6 >>context of the time and system in which it was used. >>M >>Times change, constraints often differ radically across different platformsa6 >>even in the *same* time, and so do 'best practices'. >> >>- bill >iL >I disassembled some 8080 code a couple of decades ago. It took me a little O >while to figure out that it was self modifying and changed the destination of  * >jumps. That probably saved a byte or two.  C It wasn't so much a matter of saving a couple of bytes as it was oft just getting it to fit at all. .  D One of the big problems with cramped spaces was that users would use@ up every available byte of user space available, thus increasingE system size would render their programs inoperable. So, in some casesiF additions couldn't be made to the system without scrounging some space within the system itself.        -- Iann" Impressive If Haughty - Q Magazine   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 03 09:38:43 GMTr From: jmfbahciv@aol.comv$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates+ Message-ID: <bgtadc$60n$2@bob.news.rcn.net>   / In article <bgril3$fnv$1@tabloid.uwaterloo.ca>,e2    dfevans@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) wrote:/ >In article <3F314E27.3010108@Flying-Disk.com>,o- >Alan Frisbie  <Abuse@Flying-Disk.com> wrote:a >>A >>It is worst than that.   There are places in Altair BASIC where-B >>they saved space by jumping into the second byte of a three-byte3 >>instruction!   Yes, it's true.   I'm not kidding.  > G >  This sort of thing is still touted as "real, skilled programming" by-@ >some die-hard eight-bitters (what a good unintentional pun thatE >was...).  I'm sure the practice would receive saged nods of approval0@ >in, say, comp.sys.cbm.  Every now and then they go on about howA >current software is bloated and crappy because programmers don'tc) >know these kinds of tools of efficiency.c >,? That isn't efficiency; it's brain damage.  I can see setting iteA up as a table and then indexing through it but this is documentedp just by having the table.  d  < Bloat is caused, IMO, by programmers who think that all code< has to resident even if it's never used.  Bloat is caused by= having a whole file in core even if it's never OPENed.  BloatH@ is caused by writing in an HLL and having no idea was one little? reference will pull into core permanently.  Just from a cursoryn@ look at HLLs and their uses, it seems as if programmers "solved"> all problems by creating libraries and dumping everything into them.0     /BAH  2  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.:   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 03 09:42:57 GMTd From: jmfbahciv@aol.comk$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates+ Message-ID: <bgtala$60n$3@bob.news.rcn.net>z  / In article <vj2seacu0nhc51@corp.supernews.com>,t6    m_thompson-NOSPAM@ids.net (Michael Thompson) wrote:K >In article <INCdnVcZmYa9yqyiXTWJkw@metrocast.net>, billtodd@metrocast.net t >says... >> >>= >>"David Evans" <dfevans@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in messagen+ >>news:bgril3$fnv$1@tabloid.uwaterloo.ca...u2 >>> In article <3F314E27.3010108@Flying-Disk.com>,0 >>> Alan Frisbie  <Abuse@Flying-Disk.com> wrote: >>> >eD >>> >It is worst than that.   There are places in Altair BASIC whereE >>> >they saved space by jumping into the second byte of a three-bytet6 >>> >instruction!   Yes, it's true.   I'm not kidding. >>>sJ >>>   This sort of thing is still touted as "real, skilled programming" byC >>> some die-hard eight-bitters (what a good unintentional pun thatMH >>> was...).  I'm sure the practice would receive saged nods of approvalC >>> in, say, comp.sys.cbm.  Every now and then they go on about how-D >>> current software is bloated and crappy because programmers don't, >>> know these kinds of tools of efficiency. >>K >>Which is just about as idiotic as condemning the practice (and skill) in k then6 >>context of the time and system in which it was used. >>D >>Times change, constraints often differ radically across different 	 platforms 6 >>even in the *same* time, and so do 'best practices'.  L >I disassembled some 8080 code a couple of decades ago. It took me a little L >while to figure out that it was self modifying and changed the destination  of e* >jumps. That probably saved a byte or two.  D JMF used to say that self-modifying code deserved everything it got.E There have been cases where modifying code was necessary (on the -10)oG but the one I heard of were few and far between (that ones I heard of).eB Everytime a solution was to self-modify, the guys had huge debatesB before it got implemented.  The problem was put on a list in theirI brains as something that should be fixed in the future when hard/softwaret, aspect that created the problem disappeared.   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.e   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 03 09:47:17 GMTl From: jmfbahciv@aol.comr$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates+ Message-ID: <bgtate$60n$4@bob.news.rcn.net>M  2 In article <3f3f0cd2.12775862@news.supernews.com>,#    ian@hammo.com (paramucho) wrote:hG >On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:23:22 -0000, m_thompson-NOSPAM@ids.net (Michaelt >Thompson) wrote:l >aL >>In article <INCdnVcZmYa9yqyiXTWJkw@metrocast.net>, billtodd@metrocast.net 	 >>says...f >>>n >>> > >>>"David Evans" <dfevans@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message, >>>news:bgril3$fnv$1@tabloid.uwaterloo.ca...3 >>>> In article <3F314E27.3010108@Flying-Disk.com>,M1 >>>> Alan Frisbie  <Abuse@Flying-Disk.com> wrote:t >>>> >E >>>> >It is worst than that.   There are places in Altair BASIC wherenF >>>> >they saved space by jumping into the second byte of a three-byte7 >>>> >instruction!   Yes, it's true.   I'm not kidding.- >>>>K >>>>   This sort of thing is still touted as "real, skilled programming" bydD >>>> some die-hard eight-bitters (what a good unintentional pun thatI >>>> was...).  I'm sure the practice would receive saged nods of approvalrD >>>> in, say, comp.sys.cbm.  Every now and then they go on about howE >>>> current software is bloated and crappy because programmers don'tb- >>>> know these kinds of tools of efficiency.e >>>fL >>>Which is just about as idiotic as condemning the practice (and skill) in  thef7 >>>context of the time and system in which it was used.s >>>oE >>>Times change, constraints often differ radically across different  	 platformsu7 >>>even in the *same* time, and so do 'best practices'.i >>>b	 >>>- billo >>F >>I disassembled some 8080 code a couple of decades ago. It took me a  little gA >>while to figure out that it was self modifying and changed the s destination of 8+ >>jumps. That probably saved a byte or two.t >jD >It wasn't so much a matter of saving a couple of bytes as it was of  >just getting it to fit at all.  >UE >One of the big problems with cramped spaces was that users would use A >up every available byte of user space available, thus increasingn4 >system size would render their programs inoperable.  > This makes no sense.  That would be problem only if their code8 (or data placement) was hardwired to absolute addresses.   > .. So, in some casesG >additions couldn't be made to the system without scrounging some space  >within the system itself.  ? Compilers had that problem.  Their functions were split up intoi= GETSEGs on the -10.  High segs could be made sharable so thate? only one copy had to be kept in memory (this was exclusively an F OS memory management task).  Users learned how about memory management) and the difference between code and data.    /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.d   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 03 09:32:45 GMTn From: jmfbahciv@aol.comf$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates+ Message-ID: <bgta27$60n$1@bob.news.rcn.net>-  , In article <8665la3jmx.fsf@fuckup.hack.org>,&    Mikael Cardell <mc@hack.org> wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >uF >> If [Microsoft] had [been inspired by DEC's BASIC-10 when they wroteC >> the original MS BASIC for Altair], they would have learned abouteE >> managing I/O without blowing the file structure off.  If they had,r0 >> I'd have saved weeks of disk rebuilding time. > E >You mean you have actually used MS BASIC much for these things? Why?t  = You misunderstood what I meant (I didn't say it well at all).   D Everybody has to learn about I/O and memory  management.  What might> work stand-alone with one flavor of program, will not work forA others.  If they had learned the do's and don'ts of I/O which wasw@ in every program on the -10, the lore would have carried over to> DOS and Windows.  The most dangerous piece of code learning isA figuring out a brain-damaged hack that you're proud of.  It meansv> that you'll try to use it everywhere, especially if you're an 
 arrogant SOB.u   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.b   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:35:35 +0200e" From: Mikael Cardell <mc@hack.org>$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates, Message-ID: <868yq5zomw.fsf@fuckup.hack.org>   jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:p  F > Everybody has to learn about I/O and memory  management.  What might@ > work stand-alone with one flavor of program, will not work forC > others.  If they had learned the do's and don'ts of I/O which was B > in every program on the -10, the lore would have carried over to > DOS and Windows.    A I understand now. I agree completely that every programmer has to7 learn these things.e  F However, I don't think Bill Gates and Paul Allen, the original authorsD of MS/Altair BASIC, had much to do with the programming of MS DOS orE MS Windows. I would be very surprised if Gates had even looked at thee% code of any part of, say, MS Windows.u  @ My guess is that Bill was mainly a manager type and Paul was outC playing venture capitalist, sponsoring basketball teams and playingh> with his home hacking stuff. I really doubt anyone of them hadF anything to do with programming Microsoft products after the BASIC for Altair.r   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 03 12:07:41 GMTt From: jmfbahciv@aol.comn$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates+ Message-ID: <bgtj4m$r50$5@bob.news.rcn.net>e  . In article <3F314E27.3010108@Flying-Disk.com>,.    Alan Frisbie <Abuse@Flying-Disk.com> wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:n. >> In article <3F2FEB55.C73F6F0@yk.rim.or.jp>,- >>    Ishikawa <ishikawa@yk.rim.or.jp> wrote:e >t< >>> Since the memory was so tight, saving code space thusly ; >>> by having a single READ/WRITE routine that is used bothn8 >>> for input/output was considered a win. (This was not' >>> thread safe if I recall correctly.)m9 >>> I heard that this code was done by Bill Gates himselfa8 >>> and that he was very proud of the code trick and the >>> memory saving. o >e >> GoodfuckingGRIEF! >e? >> Bill Gates thinking would have improved if somebody had doneF >> a lobotomy.   > @ >It is worst than that.   There are places in Altair BASIC whereA >they saved space by jumping into the second byte of a three-bytes >instruction!  h  > I've never worked with a byte machine.  I don't understand howA this can be done.  I think I've picked up an 8080 assembler book.e> Can you give me a pointer to a magic incantation that would be listed in the index?      5 > .. Yes, it's true.   I'm not kidding.   In the latey; >1970's, a group of us disassembled Altair BASIC (easy) ande? >proceeded to reverse-engineer and comment it (hard).   It tookp= >me a while to understand that section of code, after which I, >felt, shall we say, "unclean".   : This sounds more like something that magically happened to= work rather than original code.  We certainly had supstitionsf8 in our code that some fix just happened to work but the B developer had no idea why.  JMF had quite a number of these listed@ in the back of head.  As he worked on the next development cycleA he'd stumble over another piece of code that caused him to figuree out why.     /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.i   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:09:37 +0000 (UTC). From: dfevans@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates/ Message-ID: <bgtj2h$i34$1@tabloid.uwaterloo.ca>e  G In article <bgtate$60n$4@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:a3 >In article <3f3f0cd2.12775862@news.supernews.com>,m$ >   ian@hammo.com (paramucho) wrote:F >>One of the big problems with cramped spaces was that users would useB >>up every available byte of user space available, thus increasing5 >>system size would render their programs inoperable.b >?? >This makes no sense.  That would be problem only if their code 9 >(or data placement) was hardwired to absolute addresses.M >e  D   In my experiences in micro land, absolute addresses were the rule.E Not many folks bothered with relocating loaders when you only had one = 64K address space and something like the 6502 makes it pretty 4 irritating to write fully position-independant code.  * >Users learned how about memory management* >and the difference between code and data. >B  ?   On weenie machines there was no such high-falutin excitement.    -- mM David Evans          (NeXTMail/MIME OK)             dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.cauM Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ M University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer M Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:58:42 GMTo/ From: "Don Chiasson" <don_chiasson@notmail.com>a$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release DatesI Message-ID: <mWsYa.116652$hOa.28726@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   / "Mikael Cardell" <mc@hack.org> wrote in messagek& news:868yq5zomw.fsf@fuckup.hack.org... > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:  >rH > > Everybody has to learn about I/O and memory  management.  What mightB > > work stand-alone with one flavor of program, will not work forE > > others.  If they had learned the do's and don'ts of I/O which wasrD > > in every program on the -10, the lore would have carried over to > > DOS and Windows. >uC > I understand now. I agree completely that every programmer has to- > learn these things.  >,H > However, I don't think Bill Gates and Paul Allen, the original authorsF > of MS/Altair BASIC, had much to do with the programming of MS DOS orG > MS Windows. I would be very surprised if Gates had even looked at the.' > code of any part of, say, MS Windows.l  A They bought QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) from a little1D company in Seattle for $50k. How much they changed it, I don't know.< QDOS was based on Digital Research's CP/M (Control Program /H Microcomputer ?). There is some discussion  as to how literally QDOS wasE based on CP/M. Some initial bad decisions from QDOS - or CP/M - (e.g.iE limits on file name length, a couple of pieces of non-reentrant code,cC no superuser mode - therefore no security) resulted in a great many & painful hacks in MS operating systems.  G By the time Windows really came into existence, I suspect Gates was too,+ busy managing the company to do any coding.d  B > My guess is that Bill was mainly a manager type and Paul was outE > playing venture capitalist, sponsoring basketball teams and playing @ > with his home hacking stuff. I really doubt anyone of them hadH > anything to do with programming Microsoft products after the BASIC for	 > Altair.e  H Paul Allen had serious health problems that caused him to withdraw  from! working closely with the company.    ---Don e-mail: it's not not, it's hot.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:59:38 GMTm2 From: Bob WIllard <BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net>$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates4 Message-ID: <3F326960.3060308@TrashThis.comcast.net>   Dan O'Reilly wrote:e* > At 12:50 PM 8/6/2003, David Evans wrote: > 1 >> In article <3F314E27.3010108@Flying-Disk.com>,a/ >> Alan Frisbie  <Abuse@Flying-Disk.com> wrote:V >> >C >> >It is worst than that.   There are places in Altair BASIC whereeD >> >they saved space by jumping into the second byte of a three-byte5 >> >instruction!   Yes, it's true.   I'm not kidding.  >>I >>   This sort of thing is still touted as "real, skilled programming" byoB >> some die-hard eight-bitters (what a good unintentional pun thatG >> was...).  I'm sure the practice would receive saged nods of approvalrB >> in, say, comp.sys.cbm.  Every now and then they go on about howC >> current software is bloated and crappy because programmers don't + >> know these kinds of tools of efficiency.  >  > L > Errrr, I can't say I would disagree with them.  I've maintained for a longI > time it took a lot more skill to produce large, complicated systems on, K > say, RSX than it does on VMS simply because you have to be concerned with H > a much more restricted address space (and I've done so on both).  WhenL > VMS first came out, I had a friend tell me of VMS: "it's great - if I needL > to allocate a buffer to enter a name in, I allocate a megabyte".  Granted,I > that's on the ridiculous side, but it's also somewhat illustrative of ah
 > mindset. > J > On the other hand, there's something to be said about not having to beatL > yourself up against a brick wall to get something done.  Self-flagellation< > just ain't that fun, if you're forced to do it...<grin>... >  > ------L > +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+L > | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |L > | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |L > | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |L > | http://www.process.com        |                                        |L > +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ >  >   E The limited PDP-11 address range was a restriction, but the real evil,C was the infamous Tortuous Kludge Builder.  TKB required the user tofF manually define overlay trees, while other link editors of that periodE defaulted to automatically creating workable overlay structures.  Thei6 best feature of VMS was, IMHO, the elimination of TKB. -- l Cheers, Bobh   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:14:47 +0000 (UTC). From: dfevans@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates/ Message-ID: <bgtqd7$lnh$1@tabloid.uwaterloo.ca>   G In article <bgtj4m$r50$5@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:e/ >In article <3F314E27.3010108@Flying-Disk.com>,a/ >   Alan Frisbie <Abuse@Flying-Disk.com> wrote:nA >>It is worst than that.   There are places in Altair BASIC where B >>they saved space by jumping into the second byte of a three-byte >>instruction!   >u? >I've never worked with a byte machine.  I don't understand how  >this can be done.  F   Here's an example from 6502-land that I just invented (so may not be	 correct):u   $8000	2C A9 00	BIT $00A9  D If you begin execution at $8000 then the processor flags will be setG based on the contents of memory location $00A9.  If you begin executione@ at location $8001 then the accumulator will be loaded with zero.  ; >This sounds more like something that magically happened toi  >work rather than original code.  E   No; it was a not uncommon technique to save placing things like LDAk= #$00 in the mainline of your code.  The documentation for the / subroutine I began above above might look like:t  2 Entry: $8000 Perform I/O to device specified in .A*        $8001 Perform I/O to default device     -- iM David Evans          (NeXTMail/MIME OK)             dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca M Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ M University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer M Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:14:53 -0400) From: "Scott Greig" <jsgreig@geminaq.com>t& Subject: Securing Oracle NET8 Listener8 Message-ID: <EYtYa.1566$R17.11323@news20.bellglobal.com>  
 Hello all:  2 We have installed Oracle Transparent Gateway 8.1.7! for RDB on VMS 7.2-1, TCPIP 5.0A.j  , This yields a "NET8 Listener" (port 1521) on the VMS system.t  	 Question:./ How can I secure this proces to respond only toy( requests from specific IP address(es) or sub-net(s)?    Tiat Scottu   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:52:56 GMTn9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>l< Subject: Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP1 Message-ID: <ItvYa.1724$t55.363@news.cpqcorp.net>c  ( I assume so, but Hoff is the guy to ask.  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in messagel' news:87fzkecwkn.fsf@prep.synonet.com... = > "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> writes:e >a > > SDL has been ported to C.e >y< > Well, that is good news. Will we be seeing the new version > on the freeware disk?s >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.OB >                                              West Australia 6076, > comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot0 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:13:11 GMTv From: MYS <mys@hotmail.com>e4 Subject: Turn $6 into $60,000 in 90 days, GUARANTEED8 Message-ID: <Xns93D07C4DC4502myshotmailcom@63.240.76.16>  + Turn $6 into $60,000 in 90 days, GUARANTEED   ; Postal lottery: Turn $6 into $60,000 in 90 days, GUARANTEEDb  H I found this in a news group and decided to try it. A little while back,B I was browsing through news groups, just like you are now and cameF across a message just like this, that said you could make thousands of@ dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00!!!  F So I thought yeah right, this must be a scam!!! But like most of us, IF was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you send $1.00 toG each of the 6 names and addresses stated in the message. You then placemF your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6 and post theE message in at least 200 news groups. (There are thousands). No catch,  that was it.  G So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first. I thoughteG about trying it. I figured, what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and D $6.00, right? So I invested the measly $6.00!!! Guess what? Within 7F days I started getting money in the mail!!! I was shocked!!! I figuredC it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in!!! In my firstiH week, I had made about $25.00. By the end of the second week, I had madeE a total of over $1,000.00!!! In the third week, I had over $10,000.00oG and it is still growing!!! This is now my fourth week and I have made asG total of just over $42,000.00 and it is still coming in rapidly!!! It's H certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps!!! I have spent more than that on the
 Lottery!!!  D Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, why it works!!! Also, make sure you G print a copy of this message now. So you can get the information off ofnB it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directionsH exactly, that you will start making more money than you thought possible by doing something so easy!!!M  B Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully!!! (Print it out orC download it.) Follow the simple directions and watch the money cometD in!!! It's easy!!! It's legal!!! Your investment is only $6.00 (plus	 postage).A  - IMPORTANT: This is not a rip-off!!! It is nothF illegal!!! ? It is almost entirely risk free and it really works!!! IfB all of the following instructions are adhered to, you will receive extraordinary dividends!!!  H Please note: Follow these directions EXACTLY, and $60,000.00 or more canG be yours in 20 to 90 days!!! This program remains successful because of H the honesty and the integrity of the participants!!! Please continue its2 success by carefully adhering to the instructions.  E You will now become part of the mail order business. In this business F your product is not solid or tangible, it is a service. You are in theG business of developing mailing lists. Many large corporations are happyB to pay big bucks forG quality lists. However, the money made from a mailing list is secondary D to the income which is made from people like you and me asking to be  included on your mailing list!!!  % Here are the 4 easy steps to success:>  F Step 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper.   " PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST  H Now get 6 U.S. dollar bills and place ONE inside each of the 6 pieces ofE paper so the bills will not be seen through the envelopes (to preventiF mail theft). Next, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and sealH them, you should now have 6 sealed envelopes. Each with a piece of paperB stating the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill.G THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL!!! YOU ARE REQUESTING A LEGITIMATE SERVICE AND  YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT!!!  H Like most of us, I was a little skeptical and a little worried about theH legal aspect of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Postal Service- and they confirmed that it is indeed legal!!!s  0 Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:     A.M.R.
 23645 Cora Brownstown, MI 48183 USA>   K. Costellov 20812 135 Ave SE Kent, WA 98042 USA   
 R. Somervilleu 2507-A Cypress Lnt Cedar Park, Tx 78613 USAs   S.C.B. 28 Dalrymple Green N.W.  Calgary, A.B. T3A-1Y2n Canada   S.N. Chicago 1070 W.64th St. # 11 LaGrange, Illinois 60525   M. Velazquez 5864 S.W. 8th Place  Gainesville, FL 32607  USAe    F Step 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move theD other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc.) and add your name as number 6 on the list.   D Step 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this message asG close to what you see as possible. Now, post your amended message to atsF least 200 news groups. I think there are close to 24,000 groups!!! AllD you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money youB make!!! This is perfectly legal!! If you have any doubts, refer toC Title18 sec. 1302 & 1341 of the postal lottery laws. Keep a copy ofkD these steps for yourself and whenever you need money, you can use it again.  C Please remember that this program remains successful because of the D honesty and the integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions!!!p  G Look at it this way. If you are of integrity, the program will continueiE and the money that so many others have received will come your way!!!c  G Note: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, eitheraF on your computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. ThisD verifies that you are truly providing a service. Also, it might be aG good Idea to wrap the $1 bills in dark paper to reduce the risk of maile theft.  E So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed,k@ six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a list? developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the listrF geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position, you willD be receiving thousands of dollars in cash!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00!!! ($1.00/ for each of the first six people listed above).n  B Send it now, add your own name to the list and your in business!!!  - DIRECTIONS FOR HOW TO POST TO A NEWS GROUP!!!l  E Step 1: You do not need to re-type this entire message to do your own D posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this message andG drag your cursor to the bottom of this message and select copy from theoF edit menu. This will copy the entire message into the computer memory.  F Step 2: Open a blank note pad file and place your cursor at the top of the blank page. FromF the edit menu select paste. This will paste a copy of the message into notepad so that youp can add your name to the list.  H Step 3: Save your new notepad file as a txt file. If you want to do yourG posting in a different setting, you'll always have this file to go back  to.wG Step 4: Use Netscape or Internet Explorer and try searching for variousuE news groups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions,v etc.)   A Step 5: Visit these message boards and post this message as a neweF message by highlighting the text of this message from your notepad andE selecting paste from the edit menu. Fill in the subject, this will befA the header that everybody sees as they scroll through the list ofrE postings in a particular group. Click the post message button. You'vewE done your first one! Congratulations!!! All You have to do is jump toeE different news groups and post away, after you get the hang of it, it-/ will take about 30 seconds for each news group!n  C REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWS GROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILLp1 MAKE!!!! (But you have to post a minimum of 200).t  H That's it!!! You will begin receiving money from around the world withinC days!!! You may eventually want to rent a P.O. Box due to the large-' amount of mail you will receive. If you7D wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it.  / JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT!!!.  H Now the why part. Out of 200 postings, say you receive only 5 replies (aE very low example). So then you made $5.00 with your name at #6 on the F letter. Now, each of the 5 persons who sent you $1.00 make the minimumE 200 postings, each with your name at #5 and only 5 persons respond toeD each of the original 5, that is another $25.00 for you. Now those 25C each make 200 MINIMUM posts with your name at #4 and only 5 replies H each, you will bring in an additional $125.00!!!! Now, those 125 personsB turn around and post the minimum 200 with your name at #3 and onlyF receive 5 replies each, you will make an additional $625.00!!! OK, nowB here is the fun part, each of those 625 persons post a minimum 200H messages with your name at #2 and they each only receive 5 replies, thatD just made you $3,125.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all deliver thisA message to 200 news groups, If just 5 more reply you will receivenF $15,625.00!!! All with an original investment of only $6.00!!! AmazingG isn't it!!!! When your name is no longer on the list, you just take theoC latest posting in the news groups and send out another $6.00 to the 7 names on the list, putting your name at number 6 again.c  H You must realize that thousands of people all over the world are joiningF the internet and reading these messages every day!!! Just like you areF now!!! So, can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works? I'm glad IC did!!! People have said, "what if the plan is played out and no oneeH sends you the money?" So what!!! What are the chances of that happening,E when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people who are H joining the internet and news groups everyday and are willing to give it@ a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day!!!  > REMEMBER PLAY HONESTLY AND FAIRLY AND THIS WILL REALLY WORK!!!  B --comments/feedback(please post your feedback/experiences here)---  B Not bad for 1 hr's work....made me around $5320 in roughly 35 days Anthony M Texas-  = Hello, I rcvd 269 bucks in the post in 2 weeks. Dan Miami, FLa  F I had to wait around 10 days before I had any results - $13,450 as of  3rd3E Jan 2003 to date(14th Feb 2003).Am going to re-post it again for more0 money!!s Del from Alberta - Canada   G Only received around $588 in the post the last 2 months since I startedl them1 program but I'd posted to approx. 100 newsgroups.d James P Manchester UKc  G cool....didn't expect much out of this "scam" initially but I have pay a my credit card bill Mustafa , Jordan  G I have received money from people all over the world...here in China itr is1 very good money and I buy new computer last month  Zhong Wen ...Guangxi CHina  @ For $6,I made $246 in 2 weeks --ROMEO2326 little rock,AR US of A  D Hey, just dropping a line to say that after posting to well over 820G newsgroups on google and my ISP newsgroup server over a period of 4 1/2 H months ,I've raked in $54280 . Mucho dinero baby!!!! Peace, Drew Dallas  TX  D I hope whom ever receives my envelopes enjoys the crispy new dollar  bills.4 Great program, I just started receiving cash. S.C.B.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 07:05:06 GMTeL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") Subject: Re: WASD and RDB?6 Message-ID: <00A24000.05825854@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  H In article <bgsl4p014bm@enews2.newsguy.com>, healyzh@aracnet.com writes:N >"Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr" <winston@ssrl.slac.stanford.edu> wrote:K >> In article <bgruba015s9@enews1.newsguy.com>, healyzh@aracnet.com writes:t >iO >>>I'm looking for examples of interfacing WASD and RDB.  Basically I'm wantingtM >>>to setup a CGI to extract and format data from RDB.  Needless to say, this * >>>is going to be a learning experience... >aQ >> In general, you need some kind of glue to interface web servers and databases.p >eJ >I'm thinking either perl or DCL.  The odds are I'll use a little of both, >but primarily perl. >nO >> WASD should be able support Rdbweb, the Oracle-supplied web agent which letsrN >> you write routines as stored SQL procedures.  (Haven't tried it or seen it;R >> Rdbweb certainly works under OSU and Apache.  Rdbweb limits you to one database< >> at a time, and I find writing SQL code for CGIs tedious.) >DI >Unfortunatly I don't think I have the option of playing with Rdbweb, I'mvF >using a copy of Rdb download from the OTN for learning purposes.  I'dL >already figured on the "fun" of writing SQL code for the CGI's.  It doesn't3 >look as bad as some things I've had to do in Perl.a   >TN >> There are Rdb plugins for Perl and Python, both of which work (well) under  >> WASD. > 2 >I'll have to try and find Rdb modules for Perl.    N You want DBD::Rdb, but for some reason I've only been able to download it when" I found it by author than by name.  ' http://search.cpan.org/author/ASTILLER/w     -- Alans   --  O ===============================================================================w0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025iO ===============================================================================a   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.434 ************************