1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 12 Aug 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 443       Contents:
 306GB drives! A Re: Can VMS still be improved?  Yes!  (Was Re: Netware is no VMS) * Re: Gaining control of build dependency...* RE: Gaining control of build dependency... how to start DECevent ) IBM Beats HP for Computing Deal with Lego - Re: IBM Beats HP for Computing Deal with Lego - Re: IBM Beats HP for Computing Deal with Lego - Re: IBM Beats HP for Computing Deal with Lego % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center. % Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.  Re: mount count  Re: Netware is no VMS  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates / Problem with unwanted time zone conversion in C 3 Re: Problem with unwanted time zone conversion in C 3 Re: Problem with unwanted time zone conversion in C % Results, Sizes of logical name tables   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:42:09 GMT % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com>  Subject: 306GB drives!; Message-ID: <5uYZa.78482$7O4.1900368@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>   H According to our sales rep, we should see 306GB EMA style disks shipping sometime in November.   D So, for raw space, thats 84x306 = 25704GB.  25.7 Terrabytes of data.H So, If I populate a T-5 configuration with those (4 HSG's with 84 drivesE each), I can get  102.8TB of data in 5 feet of data center row space.   J That's the same amount of space that I have in my existing 36 HSG cabinets2 populated with 18, 36, 72, and a few 144 GB disks.  ? I just hope that the 8.7 VCS cards supports that size of drive.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:21:19 -0700 , From: Ken Fairfield <My.Full.Name@intel.com>J Subject: Re: Can VMS still be improved?  Yes!  (Was Re: Netware is no VMS)) Message-ID: <3F37FABF.94E07EEB@intel.com>    Keith Parris wrote:  > _ > Ken Fairfield <My.Full.Name@intel.com> wrote in message news:<3F33D7DC.3011C531@intel.com>... 2 > > Does Shadow_Server use the $xxxCLUEVT services8 > > you've listed, or does it function at a lower level? > 9 > John "AtoZ" Andruszkiewicz kindly provided this answer:  > H > "The Shadow Server has nothing  directly - to do with the events that > surround node failure. > D > The SHDriver has a fork level interface to the connection manager,E > which notifies the SHDriver when a system departs the cluster.  The G > CSID and the CNID of the departed system is presented at that time to F > the SHDriver.  Since this notification is GUARANTEED to occur before? > any locking operations are resumed, it is used by SHDriver to @ > determine if the departed system had that shadow set mounted." > > > > How early were these added to VMS, i.e., what VMS version? > 7 > V6.2.  So they're relatively recent additions to VMS.   D     Thanks, Keith, for asking, and thanks to John for providing. :-)   	-Ken  --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield " D1C Automation VMS System Support ) kenneth[dt]h[dt]fairfield[ta]intel[dt]com    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Aug 2003 18:25:52 -07002 From: brendantregear@hotmail.com (Brendan Tregear)3 Subject: Re: Gaining control of build dependency... = Message-ID: <cbae7795.0308111725.73f961ae@posting.google.com>    Hi All,   D I thought I'd make a final posting on how I solved this, in case any3 poor souls in the future strike the same problem :)   C Firstly, Tom, I had a look at using suffix rules, but I don't think F this can solve the problem - we need to update the include file before1 dependencies are checked, not before compilation.   < Secondly, Bob's suggestion got me going down the right path:   descrip.mms:1 local_include_file DEPENDS_ON global_include_file     RUN UTILITY COM FILE     MMS/DESCRIPTION=descrip2.mms   
 descrip2.mms: , my_source_file DEPENDS_ON local_include_file  D This works great. Now the only problem is that the target executableF is ONLY getting updated if utility.com updates the local include file.D There are numerous other reasons the target should get updated, e.g.C my_source_file is updated. So, the obvious step, is to include both : descrip.mms and descrip2.mms in the command line, like so:  ' mms /descrp=(descrip.mms, descrip2.mms)   0 and we can remove the mms call from descrip.mms:   descrip.mms:1 local_include_file DEPENDS_ON global_include_file     RUN UTILITY COM FILE   E This way, descrip.mms always runs before descrip2.mms and updates the E local include file if necessary. Then descrip2.mms gets run, and will ? update the target executable if the local_include_file has been = updated. Still, this solution was not ideal, for two reasons: B     1. I would need to make significant modifications to our buildF utility. E.g. if a user wants to build TEST.MMS, I would have to check# the existence of TEST_MESSAGES.MMS. >     2. What if the target being built contains many tasks, eg.C COMMON_UTILITIES? This MMS file contains numerous include files, so + what do I put on the command line, just one E COMMON_UTILITIES_MESSAGES.MMS? or do I need to work out each invidual E MMS file that is included? How do I deal with multiple targets on the 
 command line?   C Ideally, I needed to find a way to run this utility from within the E MMS file that was being built. Here's the solution that I arrived at:   F Say the task we are building is called 'TEST'. in 'TEST.MMS' we createD two build dependencies, one to update the local include file and one  to update the target executable:	 TEST.MMS:     TEST ADDITIONALLY_DEPENDS_ON ;       $(MMS) $(MMSQUALIFIERS) /descr=test_messages.mms TEST   (    TEST ADDITIONALLY_DEPENDS_ON TEST.EXE    ...&    <normal build rules, .obj, .c, etc>    TEST.OBJ DEPENDS_ON TEST.C '    TEST.C DEPENDS_ON local_include_file    TEST_MESSAGES.MMS:%    TEST DEPENDS_ON local_include_file   4    local_include_file DEPENDS_ON global_include_file       RUN UTILITY COM FILE  E By using 'ADDITIONALLY_DEPENDS_ON' we can make 'TEST' a target twice, B and include different action lines to update it. test_messages.mmsD always gets called. Then, the normal build rules for TEST will checkD the local_include_file and if it is updated, will rebuild the target8 executable. The important thing to note is that by usingE ADDITIONALLY_DEPENDS_ON, we can run test_messages.mms but not require # a rebuild of the target executable.   F The next step, would be to make test_messages.mms redundant. As far as? I have experimented, it is not possible to include the rules in " test_messages.mms within test.mms.  9 Well, there you have it... Thanks for your help everyone!    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:23:09 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 3 Subject: RE: Gaining control of build dependency... 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICECEHMAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message----- : >From: Brendan Tregear [mailto:brendantregear@hotmail.com]& >Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 6:26 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com4 >Subject: Re: Gaining control of build dependency... >  >  >Hi All, > E >I thought I'd make a final posting on how I solved this, in case any 4 >poor souls in the future strike the same problem :) > D >Firstly, Tom, I had a look at using suffix rules, but I don't thinkG >this can solve the problem - we need to update the include file before 2 >dependencies are checked, not before compilation.G I meant before compilation,  If you have a suffix for local and one for  global> includes and a rule, then it will be done prior to compilation > = >Secondly, Bob's suggestion got me going down the right path:  > 
 >descrip.mms: 2 >local_include_file DEPENDS_ON global_include_file >   RUN UTILITY COM FILE  >   MMS/DESCRIPTION=descrip2.mms >  >descrip2.mms:- >my_source_file DEPENDS_ON local_include_file  > E >This works great. Now the only problem is that the target executable G >is ONLY getting updated if utility.com updates the local include file. E >There are numerous other reasons the target should get updated, e.g. D >my_source_file is updated. So, the obvious step, is to include both; >descrip.mms and descrip2.mms in the command line, like so:  > ( >mms /descrp=(descrip.mms, descrip2.mms) > 1 >and we can remove the mms call from descrip.mms:  > 
 >descrip.mms: 2 >local_include_file DEPENDS_ON global_include_file >   RUN UTILITY COM FILE > F >This way, descrip.mms always runs before descrip2.mms and updates theF >local include file if necessary. Then descrip2.mms gets run, and will@ >update the target executable if the local_include_file has been> >updated. Still, this solution was not ideal, for two reasons:C >    1. I would need to make significant modifications to our build G >utility. E.g. if a user wants to build TEST.MMS, I would have to check $ >the existence of TEST_MESSAGES.MMS.? >    2. What if the target being built contains many tasks, eg. D >COMMON_UTILITIES? This MMS file contains numerous include files, so, >what do I put on the command line, just oneF >COMMON_UTILITIES_MESSAGES.MMS? or do I need to work out each invidualF >MMS file that is included? How do I deal with multiple targets on the >command line? > D >Ideally, I needed to find a way to run this utility from within theF >MMS file that was being built. Here's the solution that I arrived at: > G >Say the task we are building is called 'TEST'. in 'TEST.MMS' we create E >two build dependencies, one to update the local include file and one ! >to update the target executable: 
 >TEST.MMS:  >   TEST ADDITIONALLY_DEPENDS_ON< >      $(MMS) $(MMSQUALIFIERS) /descr=test_messages.mms TEST > ) >   TEST ADDITIONALLY_DEPENDS_ON TEST.EXE  >   ... ' >   <normal build rules, .obj, .c, etc>  >   TEST.OBJ DEPENDS_ON TEST.C( >   TEST.C DEPENDS_ON local_include_file >  >TEST_MESSAGES.MMS: & >   TEST DEPENDS_ON local_include_file > 5 >   local_include_file DEPENDS_ON global_include_file  >      RUN UTILITY COM FILE  > F >By using 'ADDITIONALLY_DEPENDS_ON' we can make 'TEST' a target twice,C >and include different action lines to update it. test_messages.mms E >always gets called. Then, the normal build rules for TEST will check E >the local_include_file and if it is updated, will rebuild the target 9 >executable. The important thing to note is that by using F >ADDITIONALLY_DEPENDS_ON, we can run test_messages.mms but not require$ >a rebuild of the target executable. > G >The next step, would be to make test_messages.mms redundant. As far as @ >I have experimented, it is not possible to include the rules in# >test_messages.mms within test.mms.  > : >Well, there you have it... Thanks for your help everyone! >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). @ >Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003 >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:53:51 +0100 (BST) = From: =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?= <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com>  Subject: how to start DECevent@ Message-ID: <20030812045351.75360.qmail@web41111.mail.yahoo.com>  
 Hello all,5 DECevent in our cluster is not working at the moment. 3 How can I get it up? Is there a COM file (as is the  case for TCP/IP) I need to run?    Thanks in advance  AMIT.    ===== 	 Sincerely  Amit S  H ________________________________________________________________________E Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo! ( Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:20:34 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 2 Subject: IBM Beats HP for Computing Deal with LegoI Message-ID: <6xVZa.155972$hOa.31173@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   F http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030811/bs_nm/tech_ ibm_dc_1    ) IBM Beats HP for Computing Deal with Lego  Mon Aug 11,12:55 AM ET  E NEW YORK (Reuters) - IBM Monday said it signed a technology deal with ? Danish toy maker Lego Co. in which it will replace systems from C competitor Hewlett-Packard Co. with pay-as-you-go computing that it 5 said will cut Lego's costs during the holiday season.   C International Business Machines Corp. did not disclose terms of the D deal, which involves about 30 computer servers and some data storage systems.  ? Competition between HP and IBM heated up after HP bought Compaq @ Computer last year and as corporations have cut their technology  budgets due to the weak economy.  C HP said this was **one of a "handful" of contract losses related to ? the Compaq Alpha server**, which is based on proprietary Compaq > technology that was being phased out even before HP bought the company.  D "We win some, they win some," an HP spokeswoman said, adding that HPE recently won a computer server contract over IBM with the China State  Tax Authority.  D IBM and Lego in a joint statement said the toy company would replaceD 230 Hewlett-Packard computers with six large computers from IBM thatB run on IBM chips and the popular Unix (news - web sites) operatingB system, 24 computers based on microprocessors from Intel Corp. and& four very large data storage machines.  D IBM has been pushing its "on-demand" computing model since last yearD when Samuel Palmisano took over as chief executive officer. IBM saysE companies can save money by paying for only as much computing as they  use.   -------------------   F So the question is......how many new Alpha customers and Alpha systemsA sold did HP add to their customer base today to replace Lego as a D customer and install count?....oh shit...back to the advertising and marketing issue again....     @ ...just waiting for Fred and Rob to jump on my back for this one   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:32:10 -0500 ( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon)6 Subject: Re: IBM Beats HP for Computing Deal with Lego1 Message-ID: <03081119321036@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   G > NEW YORK (Reuters) - IBM Monday said it signed a technology deal with A > Danish toy maker Lego Co. in which it will replace systems from E > competitor Hewlett-Packard Co. with pay-as-you-go computing that it 7 > said will cut Lego's costs during the holiday season.   < Damn!  And to think that I still have all my childhood LEGO!  H > So the question is......how many new Alpha customers and Alpha systemsC > sold did HP add to their customer base today to replace Lego as a F > customer and install count?....oh shit...back to the advertising and > marketing issue again....    So what do I do with my LEGO?   B > ...just waiting for Fred and Rob to jump on my back for this one  	 Me FIRST!     # All fun aside - I agree with you...   < Advertising Advertising Advertising Advertising Advertising        J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*n  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:52:55 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>6 Subject: Re: IBM Beats HP for Computing Deal with Lego2 Message-ID: <J7KdnW_st9M7p6WiU-KYgw@metrocast.net>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageC news:6xVZa.155972$hOa.31173@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... H > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030811/bs_nm/tech_
 > ibm_dc_1  H I considered reporting this development, but then decided that if I wereG going to criticize people like Keith for posting largely irrelevant and K often misleading HP happy-talk then I should exercise some restraint myself K (even though the information does seem germane to some of the concerns that G have been floating around c.o.v. for the past decade or so).  But since C you've brought up the subject, I have no problem offering comments.    >  > + > IBM Beats HP for Computing Deal with Lego  > Mon Aug 11,12:55 AM ET > G > NEW YORK (Reuters) - IBM Monday said it signed a technology deal with A > Danish toy maker Lego Co. in which it will replace systems from E > competitor Hewlett-Packard Co. with pay-as-you-go computing that it 7 > said will cut Lego's costs during the holiday season.  > E > International Business Machines Corp. did not disclose terms of the F > deal, which involves about 30 computer servers and some data storage
 > systems.  I 34 IBM servers (including a pair of p690s, 4 p650s, 24 x440s, and 4 Shark J SAN storage boxes) replacing 230+ existing cHumPaq servers (mixed HP9000 -I Superdome, unless they're old, Alpha, and ProLiant, plus StorageWorks ESA 9 storage), according to other more detailed reports (e.g., L http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/server/story/0,10801,83 892,00.html?nas=AM-83892 ).    ...   F > "We win some, they win some," an HP spokeswoman said, adding that HPG > recently won a computer server contract over IBM with the China State  > Tax Authority.  J There's a rather significant difference between winning a new up-for-grabsH account and taking an *existing* account away from a vendor.  The statedG preference for IBM's 'on-demand' plan vs. HP's similar one sounds a bit J hollow, but then customers usually don't wish to actively alienate vendorsJ with whom they might wish to deal with in the future by saying things like7 "HP's service organization just isn't up to snuff" (see I http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10950 ) or "We really liked Alpha and K Tru64, but since HP is phasing them out..." (one of many interesting points H in the lengthy http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10958 ; while I don'tF agree 100% with everything in these articles, a lot of it rings true).   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:21:28 GMT % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> 6 Subject: Re: IBM Beats HP for Computing Deal with Lego; Message-ID: <IaYZa.78478$7O4.1898061@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>   , John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageC news:6xVZa.155972$hOa.31173@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... H > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030811/bs_nm/tech_
 > ibm_dc_1 >  > + > IBM Beats HP for Computing Deal with Lego  > Mon Aug 11,12:55 AM ET > G > NEW YORK (Reuters) - IBM Monday said it signed a technology deal with A > Danish toy maker Lego Co. in which it will replace systems from E > competitor Hewlett-Packard Co. with pay-as-you-go computing that it 7 > said will cut Lego's costs during the holiday season.  > E > International Business Machines Corp. did not disclose terms of the F > deal, which involves about 30 computer servers and some data storage
 > systems. > A > Competition between HP and IBM heated up after HP bought Compaq B > Computer last year and as corporations have cut their technology" > budgets due to the weak economy. > E > HP said this was **one of a "handful" of contract losses related to A > the Compaq Alpha server**, which is based on proprietary Compaq @ > technology that was being phased out even before HP bought the
 > company. > F > "We win some, they win some," an HP spokeswoman said, adding that HPG > recently won a computer server contract over IBM with the China State  > Tax Authority. > F > IBM and Lego in a joint statement said the toy company would replaceF > 230 Hewlett-Packard computers with six large computers from IBM thatD > run on IBM chips and the popular Unix (news - web sites) operatingD > system, 24 computers based on microprocessors from Intel Corp. and( > four very large data storage machines. > F > IBM has been pushing its "on-demand" computing model since last yearF > when Samuel Palmisano took over as chief executive officer. IBM saysG > companies can save money by paying for only as much computing as they  > use. >  > -------------------  > H > So the question is......how many new Alpha customers and Alpha systemsC > sold did HP add to their customer base today to replace Lego as a F > customer and install count?....oh shit...back to the advertising and > marketing issue again....  >  > B > ...just waiting for Fred and Rob to jump on my back for this one >  >   I Ok, So just exactly what HP product(s) are they phasing out here???  From G the detail that is not included here, it could be 230 desktop/server PC L systems that where being replaced.  We are not necessarily talking about VMS
 servers here.   F I seriously doubt that they where replacing 230 VMS systems with 6 IBM? systems.  Unless we are talking about some antique VAX systems.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:52:35 +0200 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>. Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.9 Message-ID: <bh8lq7$vm2it$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>   ) On 11-Aug-2003 19:20, Jim Strehlow wrote:   @ > I have mixed feelings about the new H.P. I.T. Resource Center.G > Microsoft has had Windows Update to help administrators find patches. > > There needed to be something to make things easier for us to > administer OpenVMS patches. = > But H.P. is going to take away their FTP site in September. D > I do not mind finding out about patches via some new tool at ITRC;G > but I prefer using FTP on OpenVMS directly binary copying files to my  > AlphaServer. >  > [...]  > E > Since H.P. has been e-mailing me patch notifications, that has been 0 > good enough for an "update notification tool."   Agreed.    > ' > What is YOUR opinion of the new ITRC?   B I haven't tried it so far. Do you know if patches are available to5 "hobbyists" too or just to paying business customers?    Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. @ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system. = And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:13:06 +0200 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> . Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.; Message-ID: <01KZCJAGN7NMAM7Y4A@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   @ > I have mixed feelings about the new H.P. I.T. Resource Center. > G > Microsoft has had Windows Update to help administrators find patches. > > There needed to be something to make things easier for us to > administer OpenVMS patches. = > But H.P. is going to take away their FTP site in September.    WHY!?!?!?!?!?!  D > I do not mind finding out about patches via some new tool at ITRC;G > but I prefer using FTP on OpenVMS directly binary copying files to my  > AlphaServer. > E > H.P. will be forcing me to have to either "double transfer" from my D > P.C. to OpenVMS, or I will have to go to a DECWindows terminal (inH > another room away from my regular workspace), launch Mozilla (or other > browser) etc.  > E > Since H.P. has been e-mailing me patch notifications, that has been 0 > good enough for an "update notification tool." > ' > What is YOUR opinion of the new ITRC?   H I've been away, so I'm just jumping in here.  Even if there is some new H system, why in the world would one want to annoy seasoned VMS pros once @ again by replacing something which works fine (FTP server) with  newfangled bullshit?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:50:14 +0200 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>. Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.9 Message-ID: <bh8p28$v0so5$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>   + On 11-Aug-2003 20:13, Phillip Helbig wrote:   J > I've been away, so I'm just jumping in here.  Even if there is some new J > system, why in the world would one want to annoy seasoned VMS pros once 2                                              ^^^^^B > again by replacing something which works fine (FTP server) with  > newfangled bullshit?  L That seems to be the way DEC/Q/HP are doing business with OpenVMS customers.   SCNR,  Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. @ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system. = And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Aug 2003 15:21:43 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) . Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.3 Message-ID: <sqrQloaBzySn@eisner.encompasserve.org>   l In article <4b6ec350.0308110920.727cf342@posting.google.com>, JimStrehlow@data911.com (Jim Strehlow) writes:@ > I have mixed feelings about the new H.P. I.T. Resource Center.G > Microsoft has had Windows Update to help administrators find patches. > > There needed to be something to make things easier for us to > administer OpenVMS patches. = > But H.P. is going to take away their FTP site in September. D > I do not mind finding out about patches via some new tool at ITRC;G > but I prefer using FTP on OpenVMS directly binary copying files to my  > AlphaServer.  F    When did this happen and how were we all supposed to hear about it?   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:11:23 GMT  From: dittman@dittman.net . Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.6 Message-ID: <LLSZa.1931$zs6.1168@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>  - Jim Strehlow <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote: @ > I have mixed feelings about the new H.P. I.T. Resource Center.G > Microsoft has had Windows Update to help administrators find patches. > > There needed to be something to make things easier for us to > administer OpenVMS patches.   A I don't think a web-based tools is the way to implement this tool  for OpenVMS.  = > But H.P. is going to take away their FTP site in September. D > I do not mind finding out about patches via some new tool at ITRC;G > but I prefer using FTP on OpenVMS directly binary copying files to my  > AlphaServer.   I also prefer using FTP.  E > H.P. will be forcing me to have to either "double transfer" from my D > P.C. to OpenVMS, or I will have to go to a DECWindows terminal (inH > another room away from my regular workspace), launch Mozilla (or other > browser) etc.   D If I can't get the patches by FTP, I won't consider any cases that I7 have opened closed.  No FTP access, no case resolution.   E > Since H.P. has been e-mailing me patch notifications, that has been 0 > good enough for an "update notification tool."   Agreed.   ' > What is YOUR opinion of the new ITRC?   * I think the ITRC is a huge step backwards. --   Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:21:34 -0400 + From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net> . Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.B Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030811170851.04e5c0c8@mail.patmedia.net>  ! At 04:11 PM 8/11/2003, you wrote: . >Jim Strehlow <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote:B > > I have mixed feelings about the new H.P. I.T. Resource Center.I > > Microsoft has had Windows Update to help administrators find patches. @ > > There needed to be something to make things easier for us to > > administer OpenVMS patches.  > B >I don't think a web-based tools is the way to implement this tool
 >for OpenVMS.   K I guess I'm in the minority here ... all of my jobs for the last 10+ years  L (both consulting and direct) did not allow direct FTP from the VMS machines K to the outside world, so I had to use either a windows based FTP or a UNIX  K based FTP program to download patches. The only exception to this was when   I had dial up DSN available.    ) > > What is YOUR opinion of the new ITRC?  > + >I think the ITRC is a huge step backwards.   H I briefly glanced at the site. There are some interesting (and possibly G useful) icons on the page. One in particular tells you whether a patch   requires a re-boot.   A I do agree that getting rid of the FTP method is not a good idea.   > Maybe someone at HP World can find out more about this change.  
 Ken Robinson     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:07:51 -0400 - From: Jonathan Boswell <jsb@ost.cdrh.fda.gov> . Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.0 Message-ID: <3F3813B7.DF47DBBD@ost.cdrh.fda.gov>   dittman@dittman.net wrote:2 > I can't use a web-based tool when I'm text-only.   You can if you install Lynx...   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Aug 03 00:15:56 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) . Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.) Message-ID: <Hl0v7MMBXrhI@elias.decus.ch>   ` In article <3F3813B7.DF47DBBD@ost.cdrh.fda.gov>, Jonathan Boswell <jsb@ost.cdrh.fda.gov> writes: > dittman@dittman.net wrote:3 >> I can't use a web-based tool when I'm text-only.  >   > You can if you install Lynx...  ( But from http://www.itrc.hp.com we read:  9 "Note:This site requires use of Netscape 4.0 or above, or / Microsoft Internet Explorer 4.0 or above, or an 4 equivalent browser. Javascript and Style Sheets must1 be enabled, and your browser must accept cookies. 7 Some features may not be available if viewed with other % browsers or browser configurations. "    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:46:40 GMT  From: dittman@dittman.net . Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.5 Message-ID: <49UZa.1386$wg6.624@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>   , Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net> wrote:# > At 04:11 PM 8/11/2003, you wrote: / >>Jim Strehlow <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote: C >> > I have mixed feelings about the new H.P. I.T. Resource Center. J >> > Microsoft has had Windows Update to help administrators find patches.A >> > There needed to be something to make things easier for us to   >> > administer OpenVMS patches. >>C >>I don't think a web-based tools is the way to implement this tool  >>for OpenVMS. > M > I guess I'm in the minority here ... all of my jobs for the last 10+ years  N > (both consulting and direct) did not allow direct FTP from the VMS machines M > to the outside world, so I had to use either a windows based FTP or a UNIX  M > based FTP program to download patches. The only exception to this was when   > I had dial up DSN available.  I I don't have direct FTP access for all the VMS systems, but I do have VMS L systems that have FTP access via another VMS system, so the path is HP_FTP-> GATEWAY_VMS->ENDNODE_VMS.   G If I'm dialed in fixing a problem, then I can use FTP to get the patch. 0 I can't use a web-based tool when I'm text-only. --   Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:47:51 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) . Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center./ Message-ID: <bh96en$u4g$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>   q In article <sqrQloaBzySn@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: m !In article <4b6ec350.0308110920.727cf342@posting.google.com>, JimStrehlow@data911.com (Jim Strehlow) writes: A !> I have mixed feelings about the new H.P. I.T. Resource Center. H !> Microsoft has had Windows Update to help administrators find patches.? !> There needed to be something to make things easier for us to  !> administer OpenVMS patches.> !> But H.P. is going to take away their FTP site in September.E !> I do not mind finding out about patches via some new tool at ITRC; H !> but I prefer using FTP on OpenVMS directly binary copying files to my !> AlphaServer.  ! G !   When did this happen and how were we all supposed to hear about it?  !   E I "heard" about it because I susbscribe to the patch mailing list.  I M susbscribe as a "check" against the "patches" thread in the VMS conference on O EISNER::.  I suppose if one were to scour the ITRC web site on a regular basis, 7 one would discover the addition of the patches in ITRC.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:02:38 -0700 , From: Ken Fairfield <My.Full.Name@intel.com>. Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.) Message-ID: <3F38208E.FFEAE70F@intel.com>    Jim Strehlow wrote:v > @ > I have mixed feelings about the new H.P. I.T. Resource Center.G > Microsoft has had Windows Update to help administrators find patches.i> > There needed to be something to make things easier for us to > administer OpenVMS patches.e= > But H.P. is going to take away their FTP site in September.uD > I do not mind finding out about patches via some new tool at ITRC;G > but I prefer using FTP on OpenVMS directly binary copying files to myt > AlphaServer.  B   Agreed, I'll always take FTP over browser download.  It's faster and more reliable.  E > H.P. will be forcing me to have to either "double transfer" from myPD > P.C. to OpenVMS, or I will have to go to a DECWindows terminal (inH > another room away from my regular workspace), launch Mozilla (or other > browser) etc.   >   I've never seen a browser that allowed you, the user, to sayA whether the file you want to download gets ftp'd (which is, after ? all, what's going on behind the curtain) in ascii versus binary 4 mode.  That makes some transfers next to impossible.  E > Since H.P. has been e-mailing me patch notifications, that has beene0 > good enough for an "update notification tool." > ' > What is YOUR opinion of the new ITRC?e     Bad news!  :-(  =   The really sad thing is that each of Digital, then Compaq,  = and now HP, tell us an old tool is going away before they've n> (1) proved the new tool works(!) and (2) they've provided all 6 the functionality of the old tool they're withdrawing.  >   As it is, DSNLINK (or WIS if you will) is currently "broken"> in that not all ECO Summaries are posted there, thus rendering; DNSLINK_NEW less than adequate (we have an open, though low"@ priority issue open with Gold Support over this).  Even our TAMs. can't get the info they need for gawds sake...  <   The .README's on ftp.service.[digital|compaq].com are HTML5 "junk" while most ECO's no longer have an associated s= .COVER_LET_TXT (or whatever the unix-ized file extension is). ? That makes it extremely difficult to read/search on the target c> VMS system to look for those details which are NOT also in the .RELEASE_NOTES.m  :   And now we find that the itrc requires an M$-compatible = browser and the search functions on the site don't even work h  reasonably well.  Not good.  ;-p   	-Kend --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield0" D1C Automation VMS System Support ) kenneth[dt]h[dt]fairfield[ta]intel[dt]comb   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:11:13 GMT0 From: dittman@dittman.neta. Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.4 Message-ID: <BgWZa.2140$CN.587@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>  . Jonathan Boswell <jsb@ost.cdrh.fda.gov> wrote: > dittman@dittman.net wrote:3 >> I can't use a web-based tool when I'm text-only.n >   > You can if you install Lynx...  > I don't have Lynx installed on any of my VMS systems, and will8 not install it just to work around some stupid decision. --   Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:13:38 GMTe& From: Rick Jones <foo@bar.baz.invalid>. Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.1 Message-ID: <SiWZa.2009$Gx2.163@news.cpqcorp.net>n  C I'm not familiar with plans for OpenVMS, but do seem to recall thattC even while there was the new web interface to get patches, an older ? FTP one remained for HP-UX.  On a lark I decided to ftp to thati( machine and see the top level directory:  $ $ /opt/socks/bin/ftp ftp.itrc.hp.com Connected to ftp.itrc.hp.com.k 220-0 220-Welcome to the IT Resource Center ftp server: 220------------------------------------------------------- 220-G 220-You are user 15, and there is a limit of 400 simultaneous accesses.a 220-K 220-Log in as user "anonymous" (using your e-mail address as your password)0I 220-to retrieve available patches for HP-UX, MPE/iX, and other platforms.c 220-    B 220-If you are a user of other HP ITRC services, log in with your C 220-HP ITRC User ID and password to deposit or retrieve your files.  220-) 220-If you have questions, send email to:  220-2 220-   support_feedback@europe-ffs.external.hp.com 220-: 220 i3107ffs FTP server (HP ASL ftpd, version(322)) ready. Name (ftp.itrc.hp.com:raj): ftpeB 331 Guest login ok, send your complete e-mail address as password.	 Password:o. 230 Guest login ok, access restrictions apply. Remote system type is UNIX.a$ Using binary mode to transfer files. ftp> ls  200 PORT command successful.3 150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for /bin/ls.u total 26; drwxr-xr-x  18 2          2             1024 Jul 23 06:00 .y< drwxr-xr-x  18 2          2             1024 Jul 23 06:00 ..B drwxr-x---   2 50         100             96 Oct 17  1997 .archiveJ drwxr-xr-x   9 50         100           1024 Jun 18 19:32 archived_patches= drwxr-x--x   2 50         100             96 Jul 23 06:00 bineH drwxrwxr-x   2 50         100           1024 Apr  3 13:29 domain_patches@ drwxr-xr-x   7 50         100           1024 Nov 13  2002 exportJ drwxr-xr-x   3 50         100             96 Jul 16 02:26 firmware_patchesG drwxr-xr-x   5 50         100           1024 Aug 11 01:56 hp-ux_patchesn? drwxr-xr-x   3 50         100             96 Apr 10  2001 linuxsH drwxr-xr-x   6 50         100           1024 Jun  5 15:39 mpe-ix_patchesD drwxr-xr-x  11 50         100           1024 Aug 11 02:06 mv_patchesI drwxr-xr-x   4 50         100             96 Aug  1 06:24 openvms_patches G drwxr-xr-x   5 50         100           1024 Jul  7 04:18 patch_bundleshO drwxr-xr-x   5 50         100             96 Jul  2 05:18 patches_with_warningssc lrwxr-xr-x   1 50         100             21 Oct 16  2001 recalled_patches -> patches_with_warnings L drwxr-xr-x   7 50         100           1024 Jul  2 05:18 superseded_patches= drwxr-x---   2 50         100           3072 Aug 11 06:31 tmpeG drwxr-xr-x   4 50         100             96 Aug  9 06:46 tru64_patchesfW lrwxr-x---   1 0          3               20 Jul 23 06:00 users -> /mnt/disk_farm/users     ) I didn't go looking any deaper than that.   
 rick jones -- l= portable adj, code that compiles under more than one compiler F these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)A feel free to post, OR email to raj in cup.hp.com  but NOT BOTH...S   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:40:47 GMTS From: Rob.Buxton@wcc.govt.nz. Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.$ Message-ID: <3f38330a.15967734@news>  E On 11 Aug 2003 10:20:05 -0700, JimStrehlow@data911.com (Jim Strehlow)e wrote:  ? >I have mixed feelings about the new H.P. I.T. Resource Center.TF >Microsoft has had Windows Update to help administrators find patches.= >There needed to be something to make things easier for us toi >administer OpenVMS patches.< >But H.P. is going to take away their FTP site in September.C >I do not mind finding out about patches via some new tool at ITRC; F >but I prefer using FTP on OpenVMS directly binary copying files to my
 >AlphaServer.a >uD >H.P. will be forcing me to have to either "double transfer" from myC >P.C. to OpenVMS, or I will have to go to a DECWindows terminal (inAG >another room away from my regular workspace), launch Mozilla (or other  >browser) etc. > D >Since H.P. has been e-mailing me patch notifications, that has been/ >good enough for an "update notification tool."e >o& >What is YOUR opinion of the new ITRC? >L> >Jim Strehlow, OpenVMS Systems Administrator, Alameda, CA, USA   I don't have the same issues.LF We use Pathworks and so I just browse, and download to a share that is mapped to a VMS Disk.rC So changing the method of accessing the patches will have no effect6 here.   E Saying that, I do wish they'd used some of the layout from the Aussiee4 site, which was very clear and easy to find patches.  It wasn't immediately intuitive.  D As regards the ITRC, I use it for several forums and have found that@ the initial noise levels have dropped off and that the content /" expertise is generally quite high.- I still see c.o.v as the main OpenVMS forum. n@ Others have complained about "noise" in the ITRC OpenVMS forum. @ That may depend on your definition of noise, there's certainly a@ reasonable amount of non-vms stuff posted here, but it's usuallyD clearly labelled as such. In the ITRC Forums there does appear to be, more of an effort in moving errant postings.  E I also like the idea of points and a flag indicating that a query hasm been solved by a response.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 01:45:27 +0000 (UTC)r7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)d. Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.. Message-ID: <bh9grn$v7$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>  Z In article <SiWZa.2009$Gx2.163@news.cpqcorp.net>, Rick Jones <foo@bar.baz.invalid> writes:D !I'm not familiar with plans for OpenVMS, but do seem to recall thatD !even while there was the new web interface to get patches, an older@ !FTP one remained for HP-UX.  On a lark I decided to ftp to that) !machine and see the top level directory:  !L% !$ /opt/socks/bin/ftp ftp.itrc.hp.coms !snip of usual ftp stuff...! !ftp> ls !200 PORT command successful.f4 !150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for /bin/ls.	 !total 26g< !drwxr-xr-x  18 2          2             1024 Jul 23 06:00 .= !drwxr-xr-x  18 2          2             1024 Jul 23 06:00 ..oC !drwxr-x---   2 50         100             96 Oct 17  1997 .archive.K !drwxr-xr-x   9 50         100           1024 Jun 18 19:32 archived_patcheso> !drwxr-x--x   2 50         100             96 Jul 23 06:00 binI !drwxrwxr-x   2 50         100           1024 Apr  3 13:29 domain_patchesiA !drwxr-xr-x   7 50         100           1024 Nov 13  2002 exportMK !drwxr-xr-x   3 50         100             96 Jul 16 02:26 firmware_patches H !drwxr-xr-x   5 50         100           1024 Aug 11 01:56 hp-ux_patches@ !drwxr-xr-x   3 50         100             96 Apr 10  2001 linuxI !drwxr-xr-x   6 50         100           1024 Jun  5 15:39 mpe-ix_patchesvE !drwxr-xr-x  11 50         100           1024 Aug 11 02:06 mv_patchesSJ !drwxr-xr-x   4 50         100             96 Aug  1 06:24 openvms_patches  K Thanks for finding this Rick - I'll investigate when I have some time.  I'm_J going to remain optimistic here, and note that it's nice that FTP is beingJ offered, and not dwell too much upon the fact that it was not "advertised"! (there's that word again...	:-)).D   !snip!   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:12:14 GMT % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com>e. Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.; Message-ID: <22YZa.78441$7O4.1896748@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>D  7 Jim Strehlow <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote in messagea7 news:4b6ec350.0308110920.727cf342@posting.google.com...a@ > I have mixed feelings about the new H.P. I.T. Resource Center.G > Microsoft has had Windows Update to help administrators find patches.d> > There needed to be something to make things easier for us to > administer OpenVMS patches._= > But H.P. is going to take away their FTP site in September. D > I do not mind finding out about patches via some new tool at ITRC;G > but I prefer using FTP on OpenVMS directly binary copying files to myt > AlphaServer. > E > H.P. will be forcing me to have to either "double transfer" from my.D > P.C. to OpenVMS, or I will have to go to a DECWindows terminal (inH > another room away from my regular workspace), launch Mozilla (or other > browser) etc.. > E > Since H.P. has been e-mailing me patch notifications, that has been 0 > good enough for an "update notification tool." >y' > What is YOUR opinion of the new ITRC?6 >5? > Jim Strehlow, OpenVMS Systems Administrator, Alameda, CA, USA-  G I really like the layout of the Aussie site for looking at a particular?L version of VMS patches.  The US site was easier for looking at anything new.K But not necessarily for a particular version of VMS that I needed to update 
 at that time.e  J We used to use DSNlink for getting patches.  but that has been turned off.I I now Dload to my laptop, and then FTP to a managemnet VMS node.  There IdI unzip and arrange all of the latest patches in a  [patches.{version}.all]_K directory for new VMS upgrades.  From this node, I can FTP/DECNET to any ofr my VMS systems.   H We have told our TAMS that dialup instead of DSNlink tunneling for crashH dump analysis is a step backwards, and not what we would consider a real option in the future.   I I just found out about the ITRC last week.  I would have thought that our7G Platinum TAMS would have told us about it first.  It seems that this isaI something that HP is making the COMPAQ folks do.  I asked when I would be K able to link my COMPAQ platinum support aggreement to my profile, and I was)= informed that this would potentially be possible in November.y  L They do not say that they are going to be restricting access.  Just that you need to register to download.t  F I can see some mirror sites popping up for hobbiest downloading in theH future if they restrict access to client with a support contract.  Right% now, they cannot tell the difference!s  0 Mike Naime.  VMS/SAN mechanic :-)  KC, MO.  USA.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:32:17 +0930 % From: Jeremy Begg <jeremy@vsm.com.au> . Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.* Message-ID: <3F3866C9.25EB4C0C@vsm.com.au>   Hi,d   >Rick Jones wrote: > E > I'm not familiar with plans for OpenVMS, but do seem to recall that E > even while there was the new web interface to get patches, an oldernA > FTP one remained for HP-UX.  On a lark I decided to ftp to thatu* > machine and see the top level directory: > & > $ /opt/socks/bin/ftp ftp.itrc.hp.com > Connected to ftp.itrc.hp.com.a  M I just had a quick look at the FTP server; all the OpenVMS patches seem to be  there.M One nice touch is that the HTML README files have been replaced by plain textmF files equivalent to the older "cover notes".  The older FTP server hadK selected products in separate directories (e.g. TCP/IP, DECnet) but the news6 one seems to have them lumped in with the O/S patches.  H I guess time will tell if ftp.itrc.hp.com remains available and current.   Regards,           Jeremy Begg-  =   +---------------------------------------------------------+c=   |            VSM Software Services Pty. Ltd.              |a=   |                 http://www.vsm.com.au/                  |o=   |       "OpenVMS Systems Management & Programming"        | =   |---------------------------------------------------------|h=   | P.O.Box 402, Walkerville, |  E-Mail:  jeremy@vsm.com.au |0=   | South Australia 5081      |   Phone:  +61 8 8221 5188   |u=   |---------------------------|  Mobile:  0414 422 947      |D=   |  A.C.N. 068 409 156       |     FAX:  +61 8 8221 7199   |)=   +---------------------------------------------------------+t   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Aug 2003 06:10:36 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>. Subject: Re: itrc - H.P. I.T. Resource Center.6 Message-ID: <20030812061036.31484.qmail@gacracker.org>  ; On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> wrote:w   <snip>  G >I can see some mirror sites popping up for hobbiest downloading in the I >future if they restrict access to client with a support contract.  Righta& >now, they cannot tell the difference!  I I wonder if the Auzzies will set one up.  For anyone who hasn't collectedtI all the patches their current site is a godsend when doing a new install.i     Doc. -- dF OpenVMS:    Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems.F [New Key - Get via finger]                       http://vmsbox.cjb.net   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 01:47:26 +0100 (BST)2= From: =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?= <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com>: Subject: Re: mount count@ Message-ID: <20030812004726.42054.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com>  0 yes, it is true. We have shadow sets on a 2-node cluster. Thanks4  --- Paul Sture <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote: > In articlep >s5 <20030808122404.98787.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com>,m! > =?iso-8859-1?q?amit=20sawhney?=r! > <thick_guy_9@yahoo.com> writes:  > > Hi6 > > WHen I issue a SHOW DEVICE DSA?? I notice that the > theg4 > > mount count is 2. What does this mean? How can I > check ( > > the details? Could this be an error? > >  > 1 > I'd guess that you have the disk mounted on twoo > systems within a cluster.    ===== 	 Sincerelyt Amit S  H ________________________________________________________________________E Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo!L( Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:26:20 GMTi& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: Netware is no VMS8 Message-ID: <7pnfjv0kt2vc82iba3lh0c6b1qj93kvuc7@4ax.com>  J On 6 Aug 2003 23:31:58 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:  e >In article <bgrube$po1nb$1@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>, "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com> writes:e6 >> "jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message5 >> news:ueb2jvs5e4upk428af4h2orv3bu1j3vvfg@4ax.com...r3 >>> I know this take us a little off-topic, but....q >>>eK >>> What new features do you believe are needed above what's already in theSH >>> roadmap?  For me, at this point, I don't see any real missing killerL >>> feature that's both feasible (i.e., not something like process migration) >>> between cluster nodes), and valuable.  >>>  >> o > @ >	Maybe in a few days a few good ideas surface.  I guess you are@ >	saying all the good ideas for OS improvement have already been >	invented?  Of course not.a  G Right.  Of course not.  That's why I stated it as a question, wondering G what people would like.  But I did add that I don't foresee any "killerf= feature" yet.  I remain hopeful that one will arise, however.o   > [snip TRAM and MRAM]  G But these aren't killer OS features.  These are memory-related, and allo= that's needed is OS support.  In my mind these are different.r   >aG >	The missing killer VMS feature is true WRITEBEHIND (with confidence) 0? >	at a filesystem level.  With MRAM, the writes are not lost oni: >	power outtage.  So as Fred mentioned what the impetus or" >	catalyst for Galaxy's birth was:  G Well, that's always a possibility... once the technology for truly safe F writing is in place.  I'm not holding my breath, however, because very0 often these promises don't see the light of day.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:55:39 +0100 9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>r$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates? Message-ID: <648864204c.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>.  . In message <bgtj2h$i34$1@tabloid.uwaterloo.ca>9           dfevans@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) wrote:   I > In article <bgtate$60n$4@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote: 5 > >In article <3f3f0cd2.12775862@news.supernews.com>,t& > >   ian@hammo.com (paramucho) wrote:H > >>One of the big problems with cramped spaces was that users would useD > >>up every available byte of user space available, thus increasing7 > >>system size would render their programs inoperable.u > >sA > >This makes no sense.  That would be problem only if their codev; > >(or data placement) was hardwired to absolute addresses.. > >  > F >   In my experiences in micro land, absolute addresses were the rule.G > Not many folks bothered with relocating loaders when you only had one ? > 64K address space and something like the 6502 makes it pretty 6 > irritating to write fully position-independant code.  I Have a look at the boot loader of CP/M. As I recall (and it's a long timedL ago) it loaded into memory, then worked out where it should be, moved a copyJ of itself, then used a table of address offsets to change the addresses of2 the jumps in the copy. Then it jumped to the copy.  B That was 8080 of course, which at least had 16-bit register-pairs.  J On a different topic, I remembering one of our programmers trying to writeI self-modifying code on our first VAX780, and wondering why it didn't work 9 properly. Eventually he discovered the instruction cache.C   -- d
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/n   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:33:19 GMTe) From: bob smith <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>o$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates6 Message-ID: <zYTZa.1341$wg6.1178@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>  E 5u60 is the small kind cassette tape, tu58 was DECTape/LincTape size d; spools, and the TU10 stuff was the industrial size magtape.y bobe   Alan Adams wrote:u  / > In message <3F1B2C23.6020809@beagle-ears.com>a6 >           Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote: >  >  >>Rob Warnock wrote: >>K >>>>And OS-8 could even run with *only* DECtape as the "system disk", too!!( >> >>Douglas A. Gwyn wrote: >>7 >>>I once ran RT-11 off DECtape on a PDP-11/70 in DEC's3& >>>Marlboro facility.  It was amusing. >>3 >>Three phrases: VAX-11/730. TU-58. Microcode load.S >>A >>The TU-58 was a cassette tape (actually, a miniature QIC, IIRC) B >>interfaced through a DL-11 UART, used as a block device, usually< >>with an RT-11 file structure. It made a DECtape look good. >  > I > But at least the 730 was a 19200 baud UART. The 750, if I have them thei > right way round, was 9600. > 1 > Standalone backup? Right, be with you tomorrow.i >  > C >>I heard to my amazement, that the Soviet VAX-cloning group clonedgB >>the 730, TU-58 and all. That was so stupid. They should at leastA >>have replaced the TU-58 with an 8080 controlling a floppy disk.  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:32:44 +0100 9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> $ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates? Message-ID: <466f62204c.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>   - In message <3F1B2C23.6020809@beagle-ears.com>e4           Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:   > Rob Warnock wrote:L > >> And OS-8 could even run with *only* DECtape as the "system disk", too!! >  > Douglas A. Gwyn wrote:8 > > I once ran RT-11 off DECtape on a PDP-11/70 in DEC's' > > Marlboro facility.  It was amusing.  > 3 > Three phrases: VAX-11/730. TU-58. Microcode load.  > A > The TU-58 was a cassette tape (actually, a miniature QIC, IIRC)aB > interfaced through a DL-11 UART, used as a block device, usually< > with an RT-11 file structure. It made a DECtape look good.  G But at least the 730 was a 19200 baud UART. The 750, if I have them the- right way round, was 9600.  / Standalone backup? Right, be with you tomorrow.l   > C > I heard to my amazement, that the Soviet VAX-cloning group clonedIB > the 730, TU-58 and all. That was so stupid. They should at leastA > have replaced the TU-58 with an 8080 controlling a floppy disk.e   -- C
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/t   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:36:17 +0000 (UTC)t. From: dfevans@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates/ Message-ID: <bh928h$vr7$1@tabloid.uwaterloo.ca>b  ? In article <648864204c.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>, ; Alan Adams  <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: / >In message <bgtj2h$i34$1@tabloid.uwaterloo.ca>d: >          dfevans@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) wrote: >g* >> something like the 6502 makes it pretty7 >> irritating to write fully position-independant code.h > J >Have a look at the boot loader of CP/M. As I recall (and it's a long timeM >ago) it loaded into memory, then worked out where it should be, moved a copyiK >of itself, then used a table of address offsets to change the addresses ofr3 >the jumps in the copy. Then it jumped to the copy.r >w  K   I'd call that "pretty irritating.  ;-)  It can be done, but it's anythingi but automatic.   -- eM David Evans          (NeXTMail/MIME OK)             dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca1M Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/iM University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composeriM Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manualy   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:02:40 -0600n From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>y$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates6 Message-ID: <esUZa.237$K8.135@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com>   Alan Adams wrote:w   > K > Have a look at the boot loader of CP/M. As I recall (and it's a long timeCN > ago) it loaded into memory, then worked out where it should be, moved a copyL > of itself, then used a table of address offsets to change the addresses of4 > the jumps in the copy. Then it jumped to the copy.  7 CP/M was built to run an an specific address. To run at : another, there was a program (MOVCPM?) that knew where all- the addresses were that needed to be patched.   5 I believe they generated the address to be patched byn5 assembling the source for two seperate addresses, and.& determining where the images differed.   > D > That was 8080 of course, which at least had 16-bit register-pairs. > L > On a different topic, I remembering one of our programmers trying to writeK > self-modifying code on our first VAX780, and wondering why it didn't work ; > properly. Eventually he discovered the instruction cache.  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:38:41 -0700t* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates2 Message-ID: <Qs6dnTLaec3R2KWiU-KYgw@mpowercom.net>  , "Kevin Handy" <kth@srv.net> wrote in message0 news:esUZa.237$K8.135@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...9 > CP/M was built to run an an specific address. To run ate< > another, there was a program (MOVCPM?) that knew where all/ > the addresses were that needed to be patched.e > K The MOVCPM in CP/M 1.x used a bit map embedded in the utility which flagged1L high address bytes.  MOVCPM obviously was closely tied to OS version number.J Changing the high base OS address was similar to a link loader's operationI where it resolves relocatable into absolute addresses.  By CP/M V3 the OSdB files were shipped in a relocatable format and MOVCPM was dropped.    Jack Peacock    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:03:51 GMTn* From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes)$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates5 Message-ID: <bWXZa.10849$9f7.1273841@news02.tsnz.net>R  ? In article <648864204c.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>,e; Alan Adams  <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:.K >On a different topic, I remembering one of our programmers trying to writepJ >self-modifying code on our first VAX780, and wondering why it didn't work: >properly. Eventually he discovered the instruction cache.  K I seem to recall code for the 8088 / 8086 which would figure out which CPU hE it was on by modifying an branch a few instructions ahead; if the CPUcB was an 8088, the modified branch would be taken.  On the 8086, theC pipeline was longer and the unmodified branch (or NOP, or whatever)i would be executed instead.  E I forget now what sort of CPU-specific bogosity required such a hack.i  F Self-modifying code was just a fact of life on the 6502 with its 8-bitI only indexing.  Oh, there was the zero-page indexed address modes, where :I you could use a 16 bit ZP address as a base register, plus an 8 bit index8H register, and bump the high order byte whenever the index went to 0, butF the ZP instructions were slow, and absolute indexed loads were faster;G the loop was the same, you'd just bump the high order byte of the load a? instruction's operand, and watch your routine go much faster...s  H I never really saw much use for self-modifying code on the Z80/8080/x86  processors.t   -- don   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Aug 2003 17:36:58 GMT+ From: Eric Milkie <eam23@beethovenSPAM.com>j8 Subject: Problem with unwanted time zone conversion in C1 Message-ID: <bh8k7q$2pq$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>o  C The following simple C program attempts to get the system time two X different ways:g     #include <unixlib.h> #include <stdio.h> #include <starlet.h> #include <time.h>a  
 int main() {t#   unsigned int current_vms_time[2]; !   unsigned int number_of_seconds;b  #   sys$gettim(&current_vms_time[0]);s  :   number_of_seconds = decc$fix_time(&current_vms_time[0]);  ,   printf("%s\n", ctime(&number_of_seconds));     number_of_seconds = time(0);  ,   printf("%s\n", ctime(&number_of_seconds));   }t    5 Under Compaq C 6.5, the following output is produced:r   Mon Aug 11 09:26:41 2003   Mon Aug 11 13:26:41 2003    5 It appears that decc$fix_time is adding the value of  D SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL (which for me is "-14400"), as if it were J expecting the time to be in UTC.  But instead, it throws my EDT time four C timezones west, off into Alaska.  Is this supposed to be happening?    -eric.   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Aug 2003 19:00:32 GMT1 From: JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)l< Subject: Re: Problem with unwanted time zone conversion in C: Message-ID: <bh8p4g$cl0$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  5 >It appears that decc$fix_time is adding the value of D >SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL (which for me is "-14400"), as if it wereJ >expecting the time to be in UTC.  But instead, it throws my EDT time fourD >timezones west, off into Alaska.  Is this supposed to be happening?  K You've got it backwards, decc$fix_time is NOT adding the differential while M time() is subtracting it (in order to give the illusion that the system clockeI is UTC).  The ctime() expects its argument to be UTC and then adjusts theaL displayed time returned by whatever the current timezone setting (TZSET) is.H The documentation should be clearer that decc$fix_time() does not do anyA timezone adjustments, but I think it's use is discouraged anyway.   N The crux of the problem is that VMS's system clock uses local time rather thanI UTC.  The timestamps in the file system are local time also, which causes<9 similar grief with the times returned in stat structures.s    < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929- Ohio State University        |      Internet:cL 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.n   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Aug 03 15:21:50 EDT From: grant@rigel.cc.wmich.edu< Subject: Re: Problem with unwanted time zone conversion in C/ Message-ID: <T8Rm7lb2DcOi@mcduck.acs.wmich.edu>   K Actually, decc$fix_time is failing to adjust for SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL..  G Starting with OpenVMS 7.0, the internal "C time" integer is relative to ' Universal time, unless you compile withV   #define _VMS_V6_SOURCE 1  J Since you and I are west of the prime meridian, and have negative offsets,9 the UTC "C time" value is larger than the local "C time".   E decc$fix_time is showing an earlier time, because it apparently isn'to( taking the time zone into consideration.  _ In article <bh8k7q$2pq$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>, Eric Milkie <eam23@beethovenSPAM.com> writes:UE > The following simple C program attempts to get the system time two : > different ways:T >  >  > #include <unixlib.h> > #include <stdio.h> > #include <starlet.h> > #include <time.h>s >  > int main() > { % >   unsigned int current_vms_time[2]; # >   unsigned int number_of_seconds;4 > % >   sys$gettim(&current_vms_time[0]);c > < >   number_of_seconds = decc$fix_time(&current_vms_time[0]); > . >   printf("%s\n", ctime(&number_of_seconds)); >   >   number_of_seconds = time(0); > . >   printf("%s\n", ctime(&number_of_seconds)); >  > }  >  > 7 > Under Compaq C 6.5, the following output is produced:  >  > Mon Aug 11 09:26:41 2003 >  > Mon Aug 11 13:26:41 2003 >  > 7 > It appears that decc$fix_time is adding the value of  F > SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL (which for me is "-14400"), as if it were L > expecting the time to be in UTC.  But instead, it throws my EDT time four E > timezones west, off into Alaska.  Is this supposed to be happening?s >  > -erict   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 04:24:08 GMT + From: Jeff Cameron <JCam90502@jcameron.com>I. Subject: Results, Sizes of logical name tables2 Message-ID: <BB5DB9F7.A91C%JCam90502@jcameron.com>   To all who responded,   
 Thank you!  C The problem turned out to be the SYSGEN parameters PQL_MJTQUOTA andeJ PQL_DJTQUOTA. The software used to run on a an old system with larger thanL default values of 0 and 2048 respectively. Using autogen and MODPARAMS.DAT IJ set the new values to 4096 and 16384 respectively, and now my program runs to completion.   Thank you all. Jeff Cameron   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.443 ************************