1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 08 Dec 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 678       Contents:9 Re: Announcement OpenVMS backup solution special offer... J Architectural Workshop at SEB assists in 24x5 trading with OpenVMS and Rdb& Re: Disaster Recovery World convention& Re: Disaster Recovery World convention< Financial-services institutions move to HP Integrity systems@ Re: Financial-services institutions move to HP Integrity systems Re: Hairdoo Economics  Re: Hairdoo Economics  Re: Hairdoo Economics  Re: Hairdoo Economics  RE: Hairdoo Economics  Re: Hairdoo Economics  Re: Hairdoo Economics  Re: Hairdoo Economics  Re: Hairdoo Economics  Re: Hairdoo Economics  Re: Hairdoo Economics  Re: Hairdoo Economics  Re: Hairdoo Economics 0 Re: HP Gains Share on Supercomputing TOP500 list0 Re: HP Gains Share on Supercomputing TOP500 list0 Re: HP Gains Share on Supercomputing TOP500 list0 Re: HP Gains Share on Supercomputing TOP500 list6 HP tops 1 million tpmC on Superdome with Itanium2 CPUs: Re: HP tops 1 million tpmC on Superdome with Itanium2 CPUs) Re: HSJ50/HSZ50 RAID Configuration Puzzle : Re: I wonder if this HP director will resign from HP's BOD: Re: I wonder if this HP director will resign from HP's BOD: Re: I wonder if this HP director will resign from HP's BOD: Re: I wonder if this HP director will resign from HP's BOD8 Re: Linux kernel security bug ... VMS kernel rock solid!8 Re: Linux kernel security bug ... VMS kernel rock solid!. New HP Itanium servers: rx4640, rx7620, rx86202 Re: New HP Itanium servers: rx4640, rx7620, rx86202 Re: New HP Itanium servers: rx4640, rx7620, rx86202 Re: New HP Itanium servers: rx4640, rx7620, rx8620 Re: New patchkits available  Re: OpenVMS corp Re: Problems starting TCPIP$NTP  Re: Problems starting TCPIP$NTP  Punky Brewster Re: Punky Brewster Re: Punky Brewster Re: Punky Brewster Re: Read this and weap, twats! Re: Read this and weap, twats! Re: Read this and weap, twats!  Re: Results of SAN vendor survey  Re: Results of SAN vendor survey$ Re: Routable Protocol for Clustering$ Re: Routable Protocol for Clustering9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday ) Re: The beast is taking shape at Toulouse , Re: VAX 11/750 and RL02 - trying to boot VMS, Re: VAX 11/750 and RL02 - trying to boot VMS, Re: VAX 11/750 and RL02 - trying to boot VMSP Re: [SURVEY] Do you still code programs in Cobol? Ingres? On vax/vms/alpha/itani  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 12:45:06 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) B Subject: Re: Announcement OpenVMS backup solution special offer...= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071245.4401130d@posting.google.com>   X Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote in message news:<bqgicu$155$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>...N > I'm a bit puzzled by this sudden enthousiasm for Legato on VMS. I read this S > statement as "bye bye SLS and ABS" , but I don't see how the standard VMS backup  R > fits into this setup. After all VMS backup is still the best backup and restore M > utility I know. Perhaps you can tell us what the HP strategy is for backup  R > sollutions on VMS ? This statement is suggesting a new strategy... I like clear M > talk on these matters without having to read between the lines so to speak.   E The reason this is good news is that Legato supports the VMS platform > as the backup engine.  Many backup solutions propose a non-VMS? platform as the backup engine, only supporting VMS as a client.   : SLS and ABS are not going away, and neither in VMS Backup.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 18:07:43 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) S Subject: Architectural Workshop at SEB assists in 24x5 trading with OpenVMS and Rdb = Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071807.10c73691@posting.google.com>   D HP OpenVMS: Architectural Workshop leads to proofs of concept at SEB by Marc Courchesne  B When the SEBtrade group at Skandinaviska Enskilda Banken (SEB) wasD faced with the demand for 24 x 5 trading, flexible message transfersF between trading systems, and common authorization for message exchange@ and users, they decided to invite HP to conduct an ArchitecturalD Workshop. The workshop was conducted in three parts: analysis of theF current system, a broad definition of the desired system and the stepsE to be followed to get there, and a statement of work showing concepts B to be analyzed and proven during proofs of concept (POC). The POCsC were conducted at HP's facilities in the south of France and lasted D some 10 working days. Many concepts, technologies, and theories were; tested, resulting in the definition of three main areas for   implementation in the near term.? o  The HP Enterprise Directory product for authorization across  multiple platforms and systems? o  Extensible Markup Language (XML) as the format of choice for  intersystem messaging C o  Oracle Rdb Logminer software for obtaining 24 x 5 global foreign  exchange (FX) trading   C SEBtrade is now conducting 24 x 5 trading using Oracle Rdb Logminer C software. Systems based on the AIX, Microsoft Windows, and OpenVMS E operating systems look up service connections using the HP Enterprise D Directory product on OpenVMS, and use XML as the message format whenF passing messages between multiple, heterogeneous systems. Next to comeF is authentication of service connects using the HP Enterpise Directory@ product on the OpenVMS operating system. From a small, three-dayE workshop to a full-blown application, much has already been achieved.    Architectural Workshops:6 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/ebusiness/arch_workshop.html Enterprise Directory: 8 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/commercial/eDir/edir_home.html9 Oracle Rdb: http://otn.oracle.com/products/rdb/index.html    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 14:45:05 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) / Subject: Re: Disaster Recovery World convention = Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071445.10bb69b1@posting.google.com>   w "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:<nCuAb.197719$Fv8.29820@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>... J > I wonder if HP will be there exhibiting or even talking about OpenVMS to4 > that group of key influencers and decision makers.  ? HP has historically participated and provided speakers at these D events.  VMS DT clusters have been the subject of DRJ World sessions  in the past.  We'll have to see.  2 BTW, Contingency Planning & Management Magazine atD http://contingencyplanning.com/ has a similar and competing event inB this space, also held twice yearly, and also held only in the USA.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:57:07 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> / Subject: Re: Disaster Recovery World convention F Message-ID: <7MRAb.57$r%u1.10@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   Keith Parris wrote: 0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageJ > news:<nCuAb.197719$Fv8.29820@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...@ >> I wonder if HP will be there exhibiting or even talking about@ >> OpenVMS to that group of key influencers and decision makers. > A > HP has historically participated and provided speakers at these F > events.  VMS DT clusters have been the subject of DRJ World sessions" > in the past.  We'll have to see. > 4 > BTW, Contingency Planning & Management Magazine atF > http://contingencyplanning.com/ has a similar and competing event inD > this space, also held twice yearly, and also held only in the USA.    I So does that mean that we'll see ads in Disaster Recovery Journal for VMS H leading up to the convention...ie. come by our booth and see the world'sL best DR clusters in action ...see cables cut in real-time...take a hammer to0 our disk drives....kick plugs out with impunity?  7 But then again, I've never seen a VMS ad in DRJ before.   K In fact, I think the last VMS ad I saw was in 2000 or thereabouts....I have B it lying about someplace and I should take a picture of it for theJ group...as I recollect, it was either a full page or double page newspaperL ad. If carly(tm) is like other people, she'll clean out her purse or pocketsF each night of all the loose change and put it into a jar. By now she'sL probably saved up $40-$50 million dollars that way. She should advertise VMS with that 'chump change'.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 17:57:37 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) E Subject: Financial-services institutions move to HP Integrity systems = Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071757.26926830@posting.google.com>   F HP Integrity: HP Integrity servers deliver performance and scalability* to premier financial-services institutions by Jon Jacob  @ Customer adoption of 64-bit Intel Itanium 2-based HP Integrity? servers continues to grow with the deployment of the servers in = several prominent financial institutions across the globe. HP ? Integrity servers meet the challenges of the financial-services B customer head-on by substantially increasing performance, reducingE costs due to an industry-standard system, and heightening scalability : that contributes to improved client service. The followingA financial-services companies based in the United States are among @ those migrating to the HP Integrity platform: Chicago MercantileE Exchange, CitiStreet, First American, First Trust, and Raymond James. @ International financial-services companies that have deployed HPC Integrity servers include Banksys (Belgium), Denizbank (Turkey) and  ING Mexico.   H Press release: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2003/031202c.html   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:02:57 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> I Subject: Re: Financial-services institutions move to HP Integrity systems F Message-ID: <BRRAb.97$r%u1.59@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   Keith Parris wrote: H > HP Integrity: HP Integrity servers deliver performance and scalability, > to premier financial-services institutions > by Jon Jacob > B > Customer adoption of 64-bit Intel Itanium 2-based HP IntegrityA > servers continues to grow with the deployment of the servers in ? > several prominent financial institutions across the globe. HP A > Integrity servers meet the challenges of the financial-services D > customer head-on by substantially increasing performance, reducingG > costs due to an industry-standard system, and heightening scalability < > that contributes to improved client service. The followingC > financial-services companies based in the United States are among B > those migrating to the HP Integrity platform: Chicago MercantileG > Exchange, CitiStreet, First American, First Trust, and Raymond James. B > International financial-services companies that have deployed HPE > Integrity servers include Banksys (Belgium), Denizbank (Turkey) and 
 > ING Mexico.  >  > Press release:; > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2003/031202c.html     " How many of these are running VMS?: After all, as some would point out, this is c.o.v. and not" comp.hardware.IA64.HP.blatent.hype   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 19:28:23 GMT % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com>  Subject: Re: Hairdoo Economics: Message-ID: <rbLAb.111845$Eq1.41339@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>  5 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message # news:3FD29292.91D87D2D@istop.com...  > Michael Austin wrote: K > > I run a shop that has more than 150 Alpha/VMS systems -- and growing by L > > the rack-full (DS20/25,ES40/45/47,GS1280-one with more on order))... allI > > on TCPIP V5.3xx  and I don't have any problems with it... DECNET OSI, 8 > > TCPIP, VLANS, PVLANS, PVWANS... it just plain works! > K > While TCPIP Servoces 5.* has been a big improvement over UCX, the product I > suite still has a long way to go. The SMTP software and VMS mail need a  major 
 > upgrade. > L > The core needs to be fixed (5.3 causes *VMS* to crash if you try to enable a K > LSIP line on VAX, VAX TCPIP still alcks PPP support, there is no SSH that F > comes with the product, the location of the files leaves a lot to be desired.H > And they could have simply put all the "unix" utilities in a directory withD > the proper file names and then used DLC$PATH instead of defining a	 gazillion 7 > symbols that make it harder to view your own symbols.   J Buy an Alpha, and the functionality is there.  Now your whining because itH doesn't work on your old VAX equipment that was de-support several years+ ago.  Be grateful that it still runs on it.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 14:04:48 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)  Subject: Re: Hairdoo Economics= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071404.5246bfb0@posting.google.com>   [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3FD02AD9.2050EB4C@istop.com>... P > They are not making significant investments in VMS. They are spending money to) > help support their decision to go IA64.   D The port to IA64 in itself is a significant investment in the future of VMS.   ? But significant investment in VMS in other areas has continued: . o  Scalability improvements in spinlocks, etc. o  LAN Failover C o  TCP/IP improvements, including scalable kernel, FailsafeIP, SSL, 	 SSH, etc. F o  Many security features, including Kerberos, LDAP, CDSA, ACME login, UNIX UIDs and GUIDs  o  Dissimilar Device Shadowing o  Dynamic Volume Expansion ; o  New performance tools, including $GETRMI, TDC2, T4, etc. " o  Fast Path for LANs and PEDRIVERB o  UNIX/Linux Portability Project, including CRTL improvements and, ports of popular open-source software to VMS, o  Movement of Working Set lists to S2 space o  Host-Based Mini-Merge o  SCS over Fibre Channel A None of these has anything to do with Itanium, but meet very real ' needs I've been hearing from customers.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 14:12:51 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)  Subject: Re: Hairdoo Economics= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071412.11fa108f@posting.google.com>   d "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<ssGdnQXa2OUnlEyiRVn-vA@metrocast.net>...D > VMS had no need for this work until cHumPaq stupidly created it by > killing Alpha's future  C I recall many customers asking that VMS not be tied only to its own C vendor's special CPU architecture, as it was in the VAX days. Alpha F failed to become an industry-standard CPU, so Alpha didn't answer that@ need, either. Itanium is the best chance yet for VMS to run on a mainstream CPU.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 14:18:50 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)  Subject: Re: Hairdoo Economics= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071418.51dc3790@posting.google.com>   [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3FD1016E.B3A9E4FD@istop.com>... P > As a result of this exercise, the lead VMS had over others will narrow becauseO > meanwhile, AIX and Solaris and even Windows continue to invest resources into  > improving their systems.  C AIX and Solaris are struggling to remain relevant in light of Linux 9 (and Solaris has the additional boat-anchor of poor SPARC F performance).  And Microsoft is stuck with trying to dig itself out ofD too many single-user and non-networked design assumptions in Windows? that result in security problems, such that it hasn't made much < progress recently on clustering, despite Digital giving it aE cluster-wide file system and distributed lock manager, along with the $ engineers who wrote them, years ago.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:30:17 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>  Subject: RE: Hairdoo EconomicsR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB1E090B@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----= > From: Keith Parris [mailto:keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com]=20   > Sent: December 7, 2003 5:19 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com   > Subject: Re: Hairdoo Economics >=20: > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message=20' > news:<3FD1016E.B3A9E4FD@istop.com>... A > > As a result of this exercise, the lead VMS had over others=20  > will narrow=20: > > because meanwhile, AIX and Solaris and even Windows=20 > continue to invest=20 + > > resources into improving their systems.  >=20B > AIX and Solaris are struggling to remain relevant in light of=20> > Linux (and Solaris has the additional boat-anchor of poor=20? > SPARC performance).  And Microsoft is stuck with trying to=20 = > dig itself out of too many single-user and non-networked=20 : > design assumptions in Windows that result in security=20A > problems, such that it hasn't made much progress recently on=20 > > clustering, despite Digital giving it a cluster-wide file=20B > system and distributed lock manager, along with the engineers=20 > who wrote them, years ago. >=20   Re:   F >> AIX and Solaris are struggling to remain relevant in light of LinuxG (and Solaris has the additional boat-anchor of poor SPARC performance).  <<  E Yep, and IBM (Senior VP of IBM Software) stated publicly earlier this E year that the likely future for their AIX base was likely going to be D Linux. So that decision, if in fact this is true, is likely going toH impact Sun as well. It also means some potential migrations are going toE be required for current AIX users at some point in the future (albeit B IBM will support them for some time - likely just like VAX users).  
 Reference:< http://news.com.com/2100-1001-982512.html?tag=3Dfd_lede2_hedF "NEW YORK--The day is approaching when Linux will likely replace IBM's> version of Unix, the company's top software executive said, anG indication that the upstart operating system's stature is rising within 
 Big Blue."  F "While IBM doesn't expect Linux to replace its own AIX version of UnixA any time soon, Big Blue is pushing the open-source OS in the that F direction, Steve Mills, senior vice president of IBM's Software Group,9 told CNET News.com at last week's LinuxWorld trade show."   F "Asked whether IBM's eventual goal is to replace AIX with Linux, MillsD responded, "It's fairly obvious we're fine with that idea...It's the logical successor."    [see url for rest of article]    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  Email: kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom . (remove the DOT's and AT for email address)=20   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:24:14 GMT 6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: Hairdoo Economics3 Message-ID: <iMNAb.165439$361.64160@news.chello.at>   V In article <3FD29292.91D87D2D@istop.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes: >Michael Austin wrote:J >> I run a shop that has more than 150 Alpha/VMS systems -- and growing byK >> the rack-full (DS20/25,ES40/45/47,GS1280-one with more on order))... all H >> on TCPIP V5.3xx  and I don't have any problems with it... DECNET OSI,7 >> TCPIP, VLANS, PVLANS, PVWANS... it just plain works!  > J >While TCPIP Servoces 5.* has been a big improvement over UCX, the productN >suite still has a long way to go. The SMTP software and VMS mail need a major
 >upgrade.   1 Please, JF, check TCPIP V5.4 before you continue. A Your statements are based on V5.3 and might be no longer current.   M >The core needs to be fixed (5.3 causes *VMS* to crash if you try to enable a J >LSIP line on VAX, VAX TCPIP still alcks PPP support, there is no SSH thatN >comes with the product, the location of the files leaves a lot to be desired.L >And they could have simply put all the "unix" utilities in a directory withM >the proper file names and then used DLC$PATH instead of defining a gazillion 6 >symbols that make it harder to view your own symbols.  H V5.4 includes SSH (and for V5.3 there was a TCPIP_SSH addon - which OTOHK prevents a VMS 7.3-2 upgrade if you forget to remove it before the upgrade)   G DHCP Client V5.4 still lacks the "request subnet_mask" keyword (but you ; can add it by hand to SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TCPIP$DHCP]CLIENT.PCY)  Fix expected in V5.5  F DHCP client _may_ (I still haven't checked it with V5.4) require to beG started before DECnet and/or LAT because of some problems with binding.   H TCPIP V5.4 still tells that it doesn't find PWIPDRIVER in SDA> READ/EXEC  J TCPIP V5.4 still has garbage problems with SYSMAN> DO TCPIP SHOW CONF COMM< Workaround is SYSMAN> DO TCPIP SHOW CONF COMM/OUT=SYS$OUTPUT Fix expected in V5.4 ECO 1  M TCPIP V5.4 has still no way to get a _list_ of domains into PATH via the DHCP N client (because the RFC offers no standard). V5.5 will offer a nonstandard way1 (just like configuring SMTP via the DHCP client).   B TCPIP V5.4 crashes are yet to be seen here (but we had V5.3 ones).  J TCPIP V5.4 still has a lot of .STB files in SYS$SYSTEM instead of the moreF logical place SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES (like SYS$SYSTEM:TCPIP$*DRIVER*.STB)  G TCPIP V5.4 still has the silly structure SYS$SPECIFIC and SYS$SYSDEVICE G instead of SYS$SPECIFIC and SYS$COMMON (or eg. does anyone know why the G DHCP client - surely a nodespecific thing - resides on SYS$SYSDEVICE ?)    So much for a quick look  F And I agree with your DCL$PATH idea for the system out of the box, butG as long I use TCPIP and TCPware mixed in the cluster, I have two tables C with IP symbols and switch the tables (and the stack) at my will...    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 18:38:06 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> Subject: Re: Hairdoo Economics6 Message-ID: <3FD3C7EE.573E9EED@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   JOBInfo wrote: >  > John Smith wrote:  > > 1 > > Over on www.openvms.org, Terry Shannon writes @ > > (http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=03/12/04/3038414): > >  > > "OpenVMS: Built to Last  > > E > > SKHPC believes OpenVMS has a very bright future. HP isn't running P > > advertisements for the OS, but the firm is making significant investments inJ > > OpenVMS, especially in the areas of business-critical capabilities and/ > > software that enables eBusiness solutions."  > >  >  > and I agree with SKHPC.  > H > I can't say a whole lot about the covert advertisment, and I cannot --H > at this time -- say a whole lot about what I do know... but I am aware8 > of SIGNIFICANT back room advertising for Alpha and VMS  H Until that comes out of the "backroom" and into the public eye, VMS will" continue to fade into EDP history.   Prove me wrong...    > that have I > included Carly herself... and she wouldn't be out pushing a product she E > is about to kill... especially the $$$ and the commitment involved.  > A > This will be my only response to this or any requests for "more A > info"...  and as you can see, the headers are obviously forged.   G I just wish *SOME*body had the backbone to come out and say WHY all the @ hush-hush nonsense. All it would take is *ONE*, *JUST* __O_N_E__H authoritative statement of why all the secrecy, and the Cones of SilenceF would fall over thopic on this group so fast your grand-children would6 come out shakin' - I say that with *GREAT* confidence.  B Unfortunately, since no one "has what it takes", we'll continue to debate this ad infinitum...    Again, prove me wrong....   H Too bad - the only VMS "ad"'s we'll see anytime soon amount to "silence, ad infinitum".   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:45:44 -0600% From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com>  Subject: Re: Hairdoo Economics: Message-ID: <3BRAb.132508$M02.75132@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>  I David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message 0 news:3FD3C7EE.573E9EED@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net... > JOBInfo wrote:  
 <BIG SNIP> >  > Again, prove me wrong....  > J > Too bad - the only VMS "ad"'s we'll see anytime soon amount to "silence, > ad infinitum".  J After some reflection, I can say that unfortunately this seems par for theI VMS course.  I can't remember any VMS advertising back in the DIGITAL/DEC J days.  Can someone point me to advertising to the masses that DIGITAL usedK during the 80's or 90's?    So why should Compaq and HP be any different if J the same employee's have moved from one company to the next.  I.E.  If youK still have the same top sales/marketing managers for VMS that you had 15-20 H years ago, why should we really expect to see any changes from the newerH companies?  Until those people start thinking differently, we can't justJ blame the new CEO's because it's business as usual for the old employee's.- They didn't market it to the public before...    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:09:56 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: Hairdoo EconomicsG Message-ID: <8YRAb.155$r%u1.69@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>    Keith Parris wrote: 7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message 0 > news:<ssGdnQXa2OUnlEyiRVn-vA@metrocast.net>...E >> VMS had no need for this work until cHumPaq stupidly created it by  >> killing Alpha's future  > E > I recall many customers asking that VMS not be tied only to its own E > vendor's special CPU architecture, as it was in the VAX days. Alpha H > failed to become an industry-standard CPU, so Alpha didn't answer thatB > need, either. Itanium is the best chance yet for VMS to run on a > mainstream CPU.   " Is Power an industry standard? No.L Is Power 'mainstream'. Not by your definition. Yet is IBM looking to kill it and line Intel's pockets? No  L Nothing was going to dislodge 80x86 architecture from having sole possession of 'mainstream'.  Since when is IA64 'mainstream'?   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:14:59 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: Hairdoo EconomicsG Message-ID: <T0SAb.182$r%u1.66@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>    Mike Naime wrote: C > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in : > message news:3FD3C7EE.573E9EED@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net... >> JOBInfo wrote:  >  > <BIG SNIP> >> >> Again, prove me wrong.... >>A >> Too bad - the only VMS "ad"'s we'll see anytime soon amount to  >> "silence, ad infinitum".  > D > After some reflection, I can say that unfortunately this seems parG > for the VMS course.  I can't remember any VMS advertising back in the F > DIGITAL/DEC days.  Can someone point me to advertising to the massesD > that DIGITAL used during the 80's or 90's?    So why should CompaqD > and HP be any different if the same employee's have moved from one< > company to the next.  I.E.  If you still have the same topD > sales/marketing managers for VMS that you had 15-20 years ago, whyF > should we really expect to see any changes from the newer companies?D > Until those people start thinking differently, we can't just blameF > the new CEO's because it's business as usual for the old employee's./ > They didn't market it to the public before...     L I have at least 2 full page VMS or part VMS *newspaper* ads that appeared inH the 1999-2000 timeframe kicking around - saw them about 3 weeks ago in aK pile of stuff I have. I'll post some digital photos when I have a minute to ! dig them out and snap a few pics.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:28:00 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Hairdoo Economics2 Message-ID: <KoCdnQwbpbQmck6iRVn-tA@metrocast.net>  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0312071412.11fa108f@posting.google.com... 7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message . news:<ssGdnQXa2OUnlEyiRVn-vA@metrocast.net>...F > > VMS had no need for this work until cHumPaq stupidly created it by > > killing Alpha's future > E > I recall many customers asking that VMS not be tied only to its own ? > vendor's special CPU architecture, as it was in the VAX days.   K Oh, really?  Are you sure that they weren't specifically requesting an IA32 K version?  The generality of your paraphrase seems just a tad convenient for   the point you're trying to make.    AlphaH > failed to become an industry-standard CPU, so Alpha didn't answer thatB > need, either. Itanium is the best chance yet for VMS to run on a > mainstream CPU.   J Were the customers that you talked with really asking for VMS to be portedJ to some unspecified architecture that 'had a chance' to become mainstream,D or asking for VMS to be ported to an architecture that already *was*E mainstream?  Again, your phrasing has a somewhat slippery feel to it.    - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:49:18 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Hairdoo Economics2 Message-ID: <4PednYSSXpAlaU6iRVn-iw@metrocast.net>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageA news:T0SAb.182$r%u1.66@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...    ...   K > I have at least 2 full page VMS or part VMS *newspaper* ads that appeared  inJ > the 1999-2000 timeframe kicking around - saw them about 3 weeks ago in aJ > pile of stuff I have. I'll post some digital photos when I have a minute to# > dig them out and snap a few pics.   K Dollars to donuts they date from Pfeiffer's reign (mid-1998 - April, 1999): G *he* actually believed in advertising Alpha and its OSs.  Of course, it K could also have been a one-time anomaly to try to shore up confidence after E the August, 1999 "Let's kill both 32-bit and 64-bit Windows on Alpha" J fiasco:  that's when both the famous Heil/Lipcon "commitment to Alpha" WebH letter and the white paper detailing the extensive advantages that Alpha enjoyed over Itanic appeared.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 01:18:26 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> Subject: Re: Hairdoo Economics) Message-ID: <3FD417A0.51C0BD2B@istop.com>    Mike Naime wrote: L > days.  Can someone point me to advertising to the masses that DIGITAL used > during the 80's or 90's?    K Back cover for a CIPS (Canadian IT association) produced census of canadian K large systems in 1985. For VMS, VAx and believe it or not : ALL-IN-1 . This J association was very IBM centric (disk drives didn't exist, DASD existed).   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 13:08:35 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) 9 Subject: Re: HP Gains Share on Supercomputing TOP500 list = Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071308.581136cf@posting.google.com>   [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3FCD0683.A17B5975@istop.com>... L > By when Alpha and PaRisc dies and HP is left with only IA64, where will it1 > stand in those rankings ? I suspect much lower.   ? I found it interesting to examine the "highlights" presentation F http://www.top500.org/lists/2003/11/TOP500_Nov03.pdf  Pages 17-18 seemD to show Alpha as having peaked a little while ago.  Intel (including: Itanium) is on the leading edge, and growing very rapidly.  G > Alpha which Carly has stated she wants to accelerate its phasing out.   % Reference?  I've heard no such thing.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 13:15:47 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) 9 Subject: Re: HP Gains Share on Supercomputing TOP500 list < Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071315.67a7697@posting.google.com>  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3FCD3C1F.326B80F7@istop.com>... < > Since HP has chosen to accelerate the widthdrawal of Alpha  : HP hasn't accelerated the withdrawal of Alpha.  The recentC announcement of 1 year of additional time before TruClusters are in 6 HP-UX moves the roadmap out another year, if anything.  F And from the beginning, the committment has been to sell Alpha systems? for as long as customer demand continues.  HP is learning that, F similar to the VAX-to-Alpha transition, VMS customers plan to continueF buying Alphas for a long time after VMS is first available on Itanium,? and thus much longer than the original 2006 (minimum) estimate.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 18:23:56 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>9 Subject: Re: HP Gains Share on Supercomputing TOP500 list ) Message-ID: <3FD3B68A.B6B8603A@istop.com>    Keith Parris wrote:8I > > Alpha which Carly has stated she wants to accelerate its phasing out.S > ' > Reference?  I've heard no such thing.u  - Someone posted the text here a few weeks ago.O   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:20:24 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>9 Subject: Re: HP Gains Share on Supercomputing TOP500 listc2 Message-ID: <yqOdnVJe9PVucE6i4p2dnA@metrocast.net>  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message6 news:cf15391e.0312071315.67a7697@posting.google.com...7 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in messagem% news:<3FCD3C1F.326B80F7@istop.com>...o> > > Since HP has chosen to accelerate the widthdrawal of Alpha >a0 > HP hasn't accelerated the withdrawal of Alpha.  I Perhaps not directly.  But by scaling back performance significantly fromiE the promised EV79 product to a minor EV7 speed bump they've certainlyu accelerated its obsolescence.l     The recentE > announcement of 1 year of additional time before TruClusters are inI8 > HP-UX moves the roadmap out another year, if anything.  J Or gives them another year to string along whatever Tru64 customers remainL with the idea that HP-UX will eventually provide an environment they'll likeD before they have to prove or disprove that suggestion with an actual product.   >eH > And from the beginning, the committment has been to sell Alpha systems+ > for as long as customer demand continues.P  > Ah, another 'commitment' - like those to EV8 and then to EV79?  H Funny - Intel never had to make such 'commitments' to, say, the 486:  itL just provided upward-compatible successors.  So the fact that demand for the@ 486 would have dried up rather quickly as its performance becameI increasingly uncompetitive was never an issue - but it will be for Alpha,rG and even sooner now that the 'commitment' to EV79 has been reevaluated.   I Of course, there'll always be a *few* customers who'd like to hang on anduD who don't really need continuing performance increases, but it seemsK unlikely that HP will keep Alpha alive just for them, but instead will justn+ choose to define 'demand' as having ceased.D   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 16:20:26 -0800m1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) ? Subject: HP tops 1 million tpmC on Superdome with Itanium2 CPUsA= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071620.2c34b12f@posting.google.com>   A HP and Oracle Set World Record Performance Mark -- First to Top 1l Million Transactions per Minute   A HP and Oracle broke through a key technology performance barrier,-C becoming the first companies ever to top 1 million transactions pero? minute on the Transaction Processing Council's TPC-C benchmark.l  D The result was achieved running Oracle Database 10g, an HP Integrity2 Superdome server and Intel Itanium 2 processors. ...gA HP and Oracle achieved 1,008,144.49 tpmC with a price/performanceeF ratio of $8.33/tpmC. This result is 30 percent faster than achieved byD the nearest competitive hardware vendor. The benchmark configurationD consisted of a (non-clustered) 64-way HP Integrity Superdome running HP-UX 11i v2 ... 9 http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2003/031105b.htmle --- = No, this wasn't on VMS, but it does reflect positively on thegC performance of the Superdome platform with the Itanium2 chip, whichi1 will soon be a platform option for VMS customers.e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:40:58 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>C Subject: Re: HP tops 1 million tpmC on Superdome with Itanium2 CPUsl2 Message-ID: <saidnW1SOPlYb06iRVn-vA@metrocast.net>  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0312071620.2c34b12f@posting.google.com...(C > HP and Oracle Set World Record Performance Mark -- First to Top 15! > Million Transactions per Minutes  E Oh, dear - another press release that's a bit moldy around the edges.    ...c  ? > No, this wasn't on VMS, but it does reflect positively on theeE > performance of the Superdome platform with the Itanium2 chip, which 3 > will soon be a platform option for VMS customers.s  L Not really:  it required twice as many processors to achieve a 30% lead overI its competition - leaving its per-processor performance at only about 2/3oI that of said competition.  Superdome just doesn't seem able to scale well K compared with POWER4+ systems, which next year will be getting POWER5 (withdK a faster clock, more on-chip cache, SMT, on-chip memory controller, on-chippJ offload engines, and a doubling in system size to 64 processors) while allG Superdome is scheduled to get is about a 10% clock-rate boost plus moree on-chip cache.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 13:28:59 -0800o1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)e2 Subject: Re: HSJ50/HSZ50 RAID Configuration Puzzle= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071328.4475ec32@posting.google.com>X  r Gunther Schadow <gschadowREMOVETHIS@regenstrief.org> wrote in message news:<bqj0l2$inh$1@hood.uits.indiana.edu>...F > Hi, is it possible to use different sized disks together in the same' > RAID set on an HSJ or HSZ controller?e  D Yes.  You only use the capacity of the smallest disk in the RAIDset,0 though, so the rest of the capacity is 'wasted'.  B > Now the million dollar question: can you hot-swap a small drive C > within a RAID set with a large drive that you then stripe to the  6 > same size as the other small drives in the RAID set?  D You can, either by putting the larger drive into the Spareset beforeC you issue the CLI command to REMOVE the small disk, or by using thesF REPLACE command to directly substitute the large disk for a small one, IIRC./  @ I'd want to do this after a backup, as in a RAID-5 array you areB exposed to the loss of a 2nd disk while you're rebuilding the one.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 12:26:56 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)iC Subject: Re: I wonder if this HP director will resign from HP's BODr= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071226.2db6ed5f@posting.google.com>n  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3FCE5F06.4BE97F3F@istop.com>...w > One needs to do the math:g > @ > If HP were to streamline its product line into a much simpler: > 	HP-UX > 	Linux
 > 	Windows >   > How much money would it save ?  B We can easily answer that question, at least for VMS. Based on theE latest public figures, VMS annually produces $2.5 to $3 US Billion in B revenues, and $500 Million in profits, so we can readily calculateD that HP would save $2.0 to $2.5 Billion in expenses if it got rid ofE VMS, but lose $2.5 to 3.0 US Billion in revenues, for a net 'savings"n of negative $500 Million.-  C So it's well worth the current level of investment to HP to get thehC $500 Million in profits that the VMS business provides, because thee ROI is so high.D  N > But from a purely logical point of view, it makes sense for HP to streamline > its product line.@  % It's not logical if it hurts profits.C   > Can HP really0N > afford to maintain products such as VMS whose functionality doesn't *really*G > make it stand out from HP's own products, especially when HP plans tor$ > incorporate many of those "soon" ?  ; As many posters here have pointed out, VMS DOES have uniquen= functionality and value compared with other HP offerings.  Ass< Microsoft has found out, clusters aren't so easy to do.  AndB TruClusters, which I believe are about the best that one can do in> translating VMScluster features and benefits to UNIX given theF constraints of the UNIX platform's design assumptions, still lack some3 features of VMS Clusters, and probably always will.e   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 12:33:25 -0800s1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)eC Subject: Re: I wonder if this HP director will resign from HP's BODp= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071233.75d23ef5@posting.google.com>e  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3FCE5F06.4BE97F3F@istop.com>...o< > just like VMS being the only Digital product that survived  " EVA is arguably a Digital product.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 18:19:27 -0500l* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>C Subject: Re: I wonder if this HP director will resign from HP's BODy) Message-ID: <3FD3B57D.5E76A8F8@istop.com>    Keith Parris wrote:SD > revenues, and $500 Million in profits, so we can readily calculateF > that HP would save $2.0 to $2.5 Billion in expenses if it got rid ofG > VMS, but lose $2.5 to 3.0 US Billion in revenues, for a net 'savings"y > of negative $500 Million..  M You are assuming here that 100% of VMS customers would immediatly stop payinglL HP. Fact is that if HP were to stop developping new version of VMS tomorrow,L HP would still get support revenus for quite some time. People don't migrate overnight. o  N And you are assuming that 100% of VMS customers would choose a non-HP solution to replace VMS..  F And you omit the fact that HP also owns Tandem which is seen as a moreH "available" system than VMS. So between Tandem's NSK and HP's HP-UX withN possibly Tru64 clustering, HP would likely get a non-trivial proportion of VMSN customers, especially if HP institutes some incentives to retain VMS customersK as HP customer. Oh, wait a minute, they already have: Retain Trust Program.r  M While the figures you are giving are neat, where did they come from ? Doesn'tsM HP have a strict policy not to reveal any financials directly related to VMS p& or Alpha ? How old are those figures ?  E > So it's well worth the current level of investment to HP to get thetE > $500 Million in profits that the VMS business provides, because the- > ROI is so high.   L Since nobody knows that VMS is highly profitable, HP's PR machine would onlyN talk about cost savings. Remember that Carly is proud to have been seen takingA harsh actions to streamline products and staff during the merger.e  ' > It's not logical if it hurts profits.g  N Then why did Compaq kill Alpha prematurely ?  Have VMS profits risen since the murder of Alpha ?JL Sometimes, they do shoot one foot so that the other foot can get stronger in the long term.  N Since computer vendors are measured by market share, consider that 100% of SunL customers are Solaris customers. But not 100% of HP enterprise customers areN HP-UX customers, that market is spit between HP-UX, Tru-64, Tandem and VMS andM windows. So for HP-UX, it looks like it doesn't have as big a market share as 0 it could have if all HP customers were on HP-UX.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 21:42:58 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)HC Subject: Re: I wonder if this HP director will resign from HP's BODs< Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312072142.7153086@posting.google.com>  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3FD3B57D.5E76A8F8@istop.com>...mO > While the figures you are giving are neat, where did they come from ? Doesn't.O > HP have a strict policy not to reveal any financials directly related to VMS M( > or Alpha ? How old are those figures ?  A Mark Gorham, HP Enterprise User's Week in Amsterdam, earlier this- year. See http://groups.google.com/groups?q=mark+gorham+amsterdam+revenues+profits+group:comp.os.vms&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=comp.os.vms&safe=off&selm=cf15391e.0306090719.5e933532%40posting.google.com&rnum=1  2 > Since nobody knows that VMS is highly profitable  " Carly knows. Scott Stallard knows.  . > Then why did Compaq kill Alpha prematurely ?  > Alpha isn't dead just yet, so no one has killed it yet. CompaqC announced their future direction, HP reviewed the plans and agreed,.F and things are progressing very well and on schedule in the directionsC planned and promised.  How would customers have reacted if, as somecD have suggested here, Compaq had made secret plans to wind down AlphaD and only revealed those after the Itanium port was a fait accompli? E Many would see that as dishonest.  You may not like the decision, butsC at least customers have all the information they need to make plans  and decisions.  D Many people are much more confident about the future of VMS now thatF it is being ported to an architecture which is being strongly promotedE by the largest and most successful microprocessor manufacturer in theu world.  P > Since computer vendors are measured by market share, consider that 100% of SunN > customers are Solaris customers. But not 100% of HP enterprise customers areP > HP-UX customers, that market is spit between HP-UX, Tru-64, Tandem and VMS andO > windows. So for HP-UX, it looks like it doesn't have as big a market share as-2 > it could have if all HP customers were on HP-UX.  E People don't care how much of the Solaris market Sun has.  That's notsE useful information.  They do care how much of the UNIX market Solaris< or HP-UX have.  # In HP's OS mix, you forgot Windows.A  E I can confidently predict that there will never be a time when all HP E customers run HP-UX, or Linux, or any other single operating system.  C As each is different, with different costs and benefits, there willhE always be a mix.  Most often, customers run a mix at a single site --h: it is very rare for only one OS to run at a customer site.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 12:57:30 -0800e1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)fA Subject: Re: Linux kernel security bug ... VMS kernel rock solid! = Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071257.2ca2dbd3@posting.google.com>s  ` "rob kas" <robnospam@paychoice.com> wrote in message news:<vspha6ahui51fa@corp.supernews.com>... >  VMS is better,o   I agree.  , > but it's long slow death spiral continues.  D Popular myth, but one definitely not supported by, for example, last quarter's sales figures.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:36:38 GMTw# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>dA Subject: Re: Linux kernel security bug ... VMS kernel rock solid!-M Message-ID: <G3NAb.216666$Fv8.141821@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>t   Keith Parris wrote::6 > "rob kas" <robnospam@paychoice.com> wrote in message- > news:<vspha6ahui51fa@corp.supernews.com>...t >>  VMS is better, >e
 > I agree. >s- >> but it's long slow death spiral continues.M >aF > Popular myth, but one definitely not supported by, for example, last > quarter's sales figures.    ' Which sales figures would those be for?y' Printer ink cartridges or Alphaservers?e Inkjet paper or VMS licences?s% Laser toner or VMS support contracts?s   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 16:09:01 -0800e1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)U7 Subject: New HP Itanium servers: rx4640, rx7620, rx86201= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071609.575c92e0@posting.google.com>s  ? HP Integrity: HP announces three new HP Integrity server models8  A HP completed the industry's broadest Itanium-based server line by>0 announcing three new HP Integrity server models.  = o HP Integrity rx4640 4-way high-density, entry-level server e, o HP Integrity rx7620 8-way midrange server - o HP Integrity rx8620 16-way midrange server u ...iC Today, there are nearly 1,000 applications available for the HP-UX, D Linux, and Microsoft Windows Server 2003 operating systems. Hundreds> of OpenVMS operating system-based applications are expected by	 mid-2004.  ...g! The press release can be found atr9 http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2003/031103b.htmll   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:21:44 -0500n* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>; Subject: Re: New HP Itanium servers: rx4640, rx7620, rx8620t) Message-ID: <3FD3EE43.B9151902@istop.com>.   Keith Parris wrote:-C > HP completed the industry's broadest Itanium-based server line byy2 > announcing three new HP Integrity server models.  M One could replace "broadest" with "only" and the sentence would still be true.K :-) Aren't other IA64 systems mostly very specialized systems such as thosesK offered by SGI or token systems offered by the likes of Dell just to pleaseS Intel ?   E > Today, there are nearly 1,000 applications available for the HP-UX,.= > Linux, and Microsoft Windows Server 2003 operating systems..  N Is that "nearly 1000" for each, or total ?  The number is not very impressive.J This simply outlines that IA64 is still very young and not quite ready forJ prime time yet. What this means is that it will take  longer than HP wouldL have us believe to transition from the various platforms to that IA64 thing.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:33:48 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>; Subject: Re: New HP Itanium servers: rx4640, rx7620, rx8620 2 Message-ID: <EJKdnca26raLbE6iRVn-tw@metrocast.net>  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0312071609.575c92e0@posting.google.com...-A > HP Integrity: HP announces three new HP Integrity server models  >iC > HP completed the industry's broadest Itanium-based server line byl2 > announcing three new HP Integrity server models. >x> > o HP Integrity rx4640 4-way high-density, entry-level server- > o HP Integrity rx7620 8-way midrange serverM. > o HP Integrity rx8620 16-way midrange server > ... E > Today, there are nearly 1,000 applications available for the HP-UX,tF > Linux, and Microsoft Windows Server 2003 operating systems. Hundreds@ > of OpenVMS operating system-based applications are expected by > mid-2004.n > ...s# > The press release can be found ati; > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2003/031103b.htmlX  I As it seems it could have been for over a month now, if anyone cared.  IfdL you're going to become a marketeer, at least try to be more prompt with yourE tout sheets.  You might ask Terry for lessons:  he's pretty timely inaC getting HP press releases into The Inquirer verbatim as 'articles'.i   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:53:21 -0600n( From: Michael Rice <marice@whiteice.com>; Subject: Re: New HP Itanium servers: rx4640, rx7620, rx8620r/ Message-ID: <vt80u69a0kff12@corp.supernews.com>c  % On 12/7/2003 9:21 PM, JF Mezei wrote:    > Keith Parris wrote:e > C >>HP completed the industry's broadest Itanium-based server line by 2 >>announcing three new HP Integrity server models. >  > O > One could replace "broadest" with "only" and the sentence would still be truetM > :-) Aren't other IA64 systems mostly very specialized systems such as thoseyM > offered by SGI or token systems offered by the likes of Dell just to please-	 > Intel ?- <snip>  I The SGI Altix systems aren't really "specialized". They offer a solution EC to a decent size segment of the community that requires a scalable bI system in a single system image. The only drawback to Altix is that they o
 run Linux.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:51:30 GMTs6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)$ Subject: Re: New patchkits available3 Message-ID: <S9OAb.166049$361.85582@news.chello.at>   b In article <20031205185808.26331.00000233@mb-m15.aol.com>, ejheller@aol.com.com (EJHeller) writes:K >I just received a new DS10 today and being the good integrator went to theeP >patch site to get the patches to apply to the system. I noticed that the UPDATE5 >0200 was available so I downloaded it and apllied it   D "being the good integrator" would mean installing V7.3-2, I suppose.   -- e Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERe% Network and OpenVMS system specialistS E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 21:38:24 -0800 . From: mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com (mist dragon) Subject: Re: OpenVMS corps= Message-ID: <7500353b.0312072138.659f1644@posting.google.com>P  i "Lee Courtney" <lcourtney@NOSPAM-mvista.com> wrote in message news:<vt1agf34u94a83@corp.supernews.com>... I > I think a possible model of what may/will happen with VMS is how HP has7G > handled MPE. This is probably a best case as there is some connectionnN > between current management and it was a product developed at HP. Look at the? > long term trend for MPE and you may deduce the future of VMS.5  A I absolutely agree with you that this looks the way its gonna be.tC However, the point I was to make is a totally fictionous thinkin ofb _if_.   B _If_ it would be the case that OpenVms was let to live by its own,D spinned off, then what would happen ? Or what would have happened if  there would have been mpe corp ?   MO   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 19:54:54 GMT % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com>f( Subject: Re: Problems starting TCPIP$NTP: Message-ID: <iALAb.111854$Eq1.56121@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>  3 David Harrold <DHarrold@wi.rr.com> wrote in messagei2 news:vvh1tv4cn3c8ih01179uhc0gi0tokevm4m@4ax.com...J > On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 02:30:29 GMT, "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> wrote: >TL > >What hardware is this on?  If it's a Marvel box (ES47, ES80, GS1280) thenF > >you need a different TCPIP$NTP.EXE file.  According to my TAM, It's supposed6 > >to be in the next SYS patch or something like that. > >e >nK > According to the release notes for the marvels, this has been resolved asS of > TCPIP V5.3 ECO2. >o? > See: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/6665/6665PRO.HTMLt  ; I cannot find any refrence to NTP in the link listed above.n  J We already had ECO2.  When we moved our first 7.3-1 cluster to the ES47's,L it already had TCPIP ECO2 applied.  NTP still would not work.  After getting& the patch from our TAMS, it now works.    0 > >James T Horn <horn@shsu.edu> wrote in message: > >news:843706dc.0312030822.43c61fc3@posting.google.com...E > >> While trying to start TCPIP$NTP on 7.3-1, I'm getting the error:a > >>? > >> VMS timekeeping is not working as expected - can't proceeds > >>H > >> I've seen the post about the patch, have applied the patch, but I'm6 > >> still getting this same message. Any suggestions? > >y >a > Dave Harrold >h >:L ............................................................................ ..E > David Harrold                              E-Mail: David_Harrold at 
 aurora.orgK > Sr. Software Systems Engineer              Phone:          (414) 647-6204eK >                                            Pager:          (414) 941-4634sI > Aurora Health Care                         Fax:          (414) 647-4999g > 3031 W. Montana Street > Milwaukee, WI 53215b   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 00:15:50 GMTl% From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com>a( Subject: Re: Problems starting TCPIP$NTP: Message-ID: <WoPAb.111901$Eq1.63050@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>  . Mike Naime <mnaime@kc.rr.com> wrote in message4 news:iALAb.111854$Eq1.56121@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com... >v5 > David Harrold <DHarrold@wi.rr.com> wrote in message 4 > news:vvh1tv4cn3c8ih01179uhc0gi0tokevm4m@4ax.com...L > > On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 02:30:29 GMT, "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> wrote: > >iI > > >What hardware is this on?  If it's a Marvel box (ES47, ES80, GS1280)r thenH > > >you need a different TCPIP$NTP.EXE file.  According to my TAM, It's
 > supposed8 > > >to be in the next SYS patch or something like that. > > >N > > J > > According to the release notes for the marvels, this has been resolved as > of > > TCPIP V5.3 ECO2. > > A > > See: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/6665/6665PRO.HTML* >A= > I cannot find any refrence to NTP in the link listed above.s >wL > We already had ECO2.  When we moved our first 7.3-1 cluster to the ES47's,F > it already had TCPIP ECO2 applied.  NTP still would not work.  After gettingf( > the patch from our TAMS, it now works. >   % Ok, I found it, but it's still wrong!i  L  http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/6665/6665pro_001.html#tcp_restrict_h         >-2 > > >James T Horn <horn@shsu.edu> wrote in message< > > >news:843706dc.0312030822.43c61fc3@posting.google.com...G > > >> While trying to start TCPIP$NTP on 7.3-1, I'm getting the error:a > > >>A > > >> VMS timekeeping is not working as expected - can't proceede > > >>J > > >> I've seen the post about the patch, have applied the patch, but I'm8 > > >> still getting this same message. Any suggestions? > > >  > >  > > Dave Harrold > >  > >i >cL ............................................................................ > ..G > > David Harrold                              E-Mail: David_Harrold at  > aurora.orgD > > Sr. Software Systems Engineer              Phone:          (414) 647-6204D > >                                            Pager:          (414) 941-4634K > > Aurora Health Care                         Fax:          (414) 647-4999l > > 3031 W. Montana Street > > Milwaukee, WI 53215t >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:00:09 GMTm( From: John Bailo <jabailo@earthlink.net> Subject: Punky Brewsterl@ Message-ID: <6d16c1741ffe390fade9701773ca1a9a@news.teranews.com>   Kadaitcha Man wrote: >  > @ > So learn this then: no posting to ngs while consuming alchohol   Punk   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:18:30 GMTs% From: Linux Sucks <linux@sucks.sucks>  Subject: Re: Punky Brewster98 Message-ID: <4mn7tvkr1mh7cjhi631dapjnjhd58snr4l@4ax.com>  @ In article <6d16c1741ffe390fade9701773ca1a9a@news.teranews.com> ) John Bailo <jabailo@earthlink.net> wrote:t   >Kadaitcha Man wrote:f >> >> oA >> So learn this then: no posting to ngs while consuming alchohol  >  >Punke   Idiot.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:15:16 GMTl( From: John Bailo <jabailo@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Punky Brewstere@ Message-ID: <61f1d07799cf3f1da5e62b4fc3aa132d@news.teranews.com>   Linux Sucks wrote: >    Punk.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:30:01 GMT?% From: Linux Sucks <linux@sucks.sucks>r Subject: Re: Punky Brewstern8 Message-ID: <oco7tv0oif8qlv0n7n4cidm3n3jr4psdgg@4ax.com>  @ In article <61f1d07799cf3f1da5e62b4fc3aa132d@news.teranews.com> ) John Bailo <jabailo@earthlink.net> wrote:e   >Linux Sucks wrote:- >> - >- >Punk.   Idiot.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:30:00 +0100R) From: Vicious Vogon <vogon@operamail.com>2' Subject: Re: Read this and weap, twats!e, Message-ID: <br0k9a$85j$3@news.dataguard.no>   The Genius wrote:N >  >  > Patrick van Loon wrote:  >  >> Just one question.E >># >> What OS are you running at home?w >> >>7 >> "The Genius" <heavybrain@bigIQ.com> wrote in message># >> news:3F7B66B4.50404@bigIQ.com...s >>J >>> I,ve been lurking in both your usenet groups for a while now, laughingG >>> at the trolls from both sides, having a go at each others OS, and I I >>> can't help feeeling that the lot of you are complete loosers.  Let men >>> break it down as follows:- >>>h >>> Linucks Lusers:T >>>eL >>> Linfux (or any unix in general) is the biggest piece of shit going. it'sL >>> had its day in the seventies, and just doesn't know when its time is up.B >>>  The man pages were written by geeks for geeks, and is totallyI >>> unintuitive, and is about as much help as turd that wont flush.  OnlyfF >>> complete morons, with very long hair and smelly beards (ie richard# >>> stallman) uses unix these days.' >>>a >>>t >>> Windozers: >>>fL >>> What a completly fucked up OS that is.   Based upon a superior OS (VMS),H >>> but bastardised into a complete piece of shit, with so many securityB >>> holes, its a wonder the whole planet is not sueing the butt ofI >>> Microshite.  Can someone answer a simple question?  Why the fuck does K >>> windoze servers require a GUI to work.  It doesn't need it!!!  Its just-D >>> a file, print and possiblly a database server.  No GUI required!L >>> Everything can be done from the command line.  Does microshite know that- >>> is products will be used to total morons?p >>>_ >>>M >>>oL >>> Let me tell you about a totally superior OS, VMS.  VMS is without doubt,J >>> the most intuative, helpful OS that has ever existed.  The help systemJ >>> is the best ever, and will tell you exactly what you want to know, andH >>> how to execute a command properly.  VMS is by far the most stable OSH >>> going, requiring no periodical pathes, only an upgrade (if you want)K >>> every 2 or 3 years.  It doesn't get viruses of any sort whatsoever, andrL >>> does not suffer from denial of service attacks that both Linucks (or anyI >>> usix) and Winshite does.  In fact it is superior to all OSs in every n >>> way. >>>AK >>> I will continue to lurk in your groups for a laugh, but remember this:-t >>>eK >>> Linucks is for lusers, and makes you stupid.  Windoze if for people whoC >>> are stupid to begin with.  >>>a >>>w >>>e >>> The Genius.....o >>>o >>>  >> >> >> >>; >>  Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Servicesr= >> ----------------------------------------------------------a: >>     ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **E >> ----------------------------------------------------------        ,( >>                 http://www.usenet.com >  > K > Erm, depends on what I feel like on any particular day.  I run Slackware AI > 9, Windows XP, OpenBSD.  I just swap the disks out  when I feel like a eD > change.  This week its Windows 2003, thanks to a freebie timebomb ) > version I get from a microsoft seminar.  >  > * > The Genius (or split personality.com)... > I > By the way, my post(s) last night was done under the influance of many o) > pints of beer with the lads after work.o >  >  >   A So learn this then: no posting to ngs while consuming alchohol ;)n   -- y+ Still here? /usr/bin/winloosers > /dev/null,   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun,  7 Dec 2003 17:45:50 -0800 (PST) , From: "Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@rainx.cjb.net>' Subject: Re: Read this and weap, twats!uA Message-ID: <oVBOR2TXXFcNA09529E2gn12eneD3upZ@listssolutions.com>s   Vicious Vogon wrote:  K Hi! You cancelled the post below so I'm reposting it in case you still needi it.t   The Genius wrote:e >h >A > Patrick van Loon wrote:p >r >> Just one question.- >># >> What OS are you running at home?  >> >>7 >> "The Genius" <heavybrain@bigIQ.com> wrote in messageo# >> news:3F7B66B4.50404@bigIQ.com...e >>J >>> I,ve been lurking in both your usenet groups for a while now, laughingG >>> at the trolls from both sides, having a go at each others OS, and IeI >>> can't help feeeling that the lot of you are complete loosers.  Let med >>> break it down as follows:- >>>n >>> Linucks Lusers:n >>>iL >>> Linfux (or any unix in general) is the biggest piece of shit going. it'sL >>> had its day in the seventies, and just doesn't know when its time is up.B >>>  The man pages were written by geeks for geeks, and is totallyI >>> unintuitive, and is about as much help as turd that wont flush.  Only-F >>> complete morons, with very long hair and smelly beards (ie richard# >>> stallman) uses unix these days.g >>>s >>>D >>> Windozers: >>>oL >>> What a completly fucked up OS that is.   Based upon a superior OS (VMS),H >>> but bastardised into a complete piece of shit, with so many securityB >>> holes, its a wonder the whole planet is not sueing the butt ofI >>> Microshite.  Can someone answer a simple question?  Why the fuck doeshK >>> windoze servers require a GUI to work.  It doesn't need it!!!  Its justgD >>> a file, print and possiblly a database server.  No GUI required!L >>> Everything can be done from the command line.  Does microshite know that- >>> is products will be used to total morons?  >>>0 >>>: >>> L >>> Let me tell you about a totally superior OS, VMS.  VMS is without doubt,J >>> the most intuative, helpful OS that has ever existed.  The help systemJ >>> is the best ever, and will tell you exactly what you want to know, andH >>> how to execute a command properly.  VMS is by far the most stable OSH >>> going, requiring no periodical pathes, only an upgrade (if you want)K >>> every 2 or 3 years.  It doesn't get viruses of any sort whatsoever, andlL >>> does not suffer from denial of service attacks that both Linucks (or anyH >>> usix) and Winshite does.  In fact it is superior to all OSs in every >>> way. >>>eK >>> I will continue to lurk in your groups for a laugh, but remember this:-i >>> K >>> Linucks is for lusers, and makes you stupid.  Windoze if for people whor >>> are stupid to begin with.h >>>c >>>g >>>a >>> The Genius.....m >>>m >>>i >> >> >> >>; >>  Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services0= >> ----------------------------------------------------------H: >>     ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **= >> ---------------------------------------------------------- ( >>                 http://www.usenet.com >e >sJ > Erm, depends on what I feel like on any particular day.  I run SlackwareH > 9, Windows XP, OpenBSD.  I just swap the disks out  when I feel like aC > change.  This week its Windows 2003, thanks to a freebie timebombc) > version I get from a microsoft seminar.p >o >t* > The Genius (or split personality.com)... >4H > By the way, my post(s) last night was done under the influance of many) > pints of beer with the lads after work.6 >p >i >g  > So learn this then: no posting to ngs while consuming alchohol   --+ Still here? /usr/bin/winloosers > /dev/nulli     begin 666 wink.gif= M1TE&.#EA#P`/`+,``````+^_O___````````````````````````````````h= M`````````````````````"'Y! $```$`+ `````/``\```0T,$@):ITX5,'Y = MQ4 G>E,XC@`EF.MJIJSEQ>PI;C9:YZYGOQK?C12<R8C%7P;7^60TEA0F`@`[  `a endr   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 02:43:45 +0000 (UTC) From: rotor@free.net (rotor)' Subject: Re: Read this and weap, twats!i2 Message-ID: <3fd3e3ff.7213953@news.btinternet.com>  1 On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:30:00 +0100, Vicious Vogong <vogon@operamail.com> wrote:   >The Genius wrote: >> X >>   >> Patrick van Loon wrote: >>   >>> Just one question. >>>e$ >>> What OS are you running at home? >>>a >>>u8 >>> "The Genius" <heavybrain@bigIQ.com> wrote in message$ >>> news:3F7B66B4.50404@bigIQ.com... >>>sK >>>> I,ve been lurking in both your usenet groups for a while now, laughing H >>>> at the trolls from both sides, having a go at each others OS, and IJ >>>> can't help feeeling that the lot of you are complete loosers.  Let me >>>> break it down as follows:-  >>>> >>>> Linucks Lusers: >>>>M >>>> Linfux (or any unix in general) is the biggest piece of shit going. it's M >>>> had its day in the seventies, and just doesn't know when its time is up.eC >>>>  The man pages were written by geeks for geeks, and is totallyhJ >>>> unintuitive, and is about as much help as turd that wont flush.  OnlyG >>>> complete morons, with very long hair and smelly beards (ie richard $ >>>> stallman) uses unix these days. >>>> >>>> >>>> Windozers:D >>>>M >>>> What a completly fucked up OS that is.   Based upon a superior OS (VMS),mI >>>> but bastardised into a complete piece of shit, with so many securitytC >>>> holes, its a wonder the whole planet is not sueing the butt of0J >>>> Microshite.  Can someone answer a simple question?  Why the fuck doesL >>>> windoze servers require a GUI to work.  It doesn't need it!!!  Its justE >>>> a file, print and possiblly a database server.  No GUI required!cM >>>> Everything can be done from the command line.  Does microshite know thatc. >>>> is products will be used to total morons? >>>> >>>> >>>>M >>>> Let me tell you about a totally superior OS, VMS.  VMS is without doubt,2K >>>> the most intuative, helpful OS that has ever existed.  The help systemfK >>>> is the best ever, and will tell you exactly what you want to know, and I >>>> how to execute a command properly.  VMS is by far the most stable OSoI >>>> going, requiring no periodical pathes, only an upgrade (if you want)1L >>>> every 2 or 3 years.  It doesn't get viruses of any sort whatsoever, andM >>>> does not suffer from denial of service attacks that both Linucks (or anytJ >>>> usix) and Winshite does.  In fact it is superior to all OSs in every 	 >>>> way.r >>>>L >>>> I will continue to lurk in your groups for a laugh, but remember this:- >>>>L >>>> Linucks is for lusers, and makes you stupid.  Windoze if for people who >>>> are stupid to begin with. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The Genius..... >>>> >>>> >>>  >>>i >>>r >>><< >>>  Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------; >>>     ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **rF >>> ----------------------------------------------------------        ) >>>                 http://www.usenet.comh >> s >> nL >> Erm, depends on what I feel like on any particular day.  I run Slackware J >> 9, Windows XP, OpenBSD.  I just swap the disks out  when I feel like a E >> change.  This week its Windows 2003, thanks to a freebie timebomb o* >> version I get from a microsoft seminar. >> n >>  + >> The Genius (or split personality.com)...  >> oJ >> By the way, my post(s) last night was done under the influance of many * >> pints of beer with the lads after work. >> g >> g >> R >wB >So learn this then: no posting to ngs while consuming alchohol ;) >r >-- , >Still here? /usr/bin/winloosers > /dev/null >iC Cant Be Much Good If You Need A Large Fuckwitty Helpfile Like That!t> Probabally Need The Asistance Coz Of All That Piss U Drank Eh?&  Windows Xp And Billy Gates Forever !!  . Rotor:- I Often Get Mistaken For Keanu Reeves.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 19:16:53 GMT % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com>8) Subject: Re: Results of SAN vendor surveyc: Message-ID: <F0LAb.111843$Eq1.71916@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>  ? Bradford J. Hamilton <brad@.gateway.2wire.net> wrote in messaget* news:2xHAb.328032$275.1086687@attbi_s53...4 > In article <3FD32146.817D5521@istop.com>, JF Mezei# <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:a > !snip!L > !Judging from the HP apologists on this group, I was fairly convinced that HPI > !was seen as one of the leading storage product vendors. Biased or not,  thisH > !survey didn't put HP anywhere near the leading pack.  This is at odds withF > !statements from HP that it is a leading vendor of storage products.  K I do not see "HP" as a leading vendor.  I still see Compaq as a top vendor.sH HP wants to claim Compaq/Digital Storage Works as their product now, butD they still have competing products that suck, and will not work withJ Alpha's.  I'm fairly certain that whoever ran this survey is also ignoring the Compaq EVA line.  K This reminds me of a similar survey that they talked to 3 management peopley1 and published a paper based on those 3 responces.t   From the survey:  L >NEW YORK, Nov. 24 /PRNewswire/ -- Heavy Reading (www.heavyreading.com), theA market research division of Light Reading Inc., today published asK >comprehensive, worldwide market perception study covering the storage area H network (SAN) industry. Veritas Software Corp. (Nasdaq: VRTS - News) andG >Cisco Systems Inc. (Nasdaq: CSCO - News) earned the highest scores forw: market leadership from 380 SAN buyers and users worldwide.J >Heavy Reading's Fall 2003 Storage Networking Market Perception Study is aJ 63-page report based on an exclusive, invitation-only survey of purchasersI and >users of SAN products. The 380 survey participants included managersSA and employees from value-added resellers of SAN products, systemsnH integrators, >multinational corporations, and telecom service providers. >5L >Respondents gave their perception of 135 vendors (61 public, 74 private) inE 10 product categories, identifying which companies they recognize and L consider >market leaders in price, performance, quality and reliability, and service and support.  L So first of all, they did not do a general survey of thousands of SAN users,I but selectively chose people for the results that they wanted.  They also E did not choose the people that actually use this stuff, but talked toeF Managers, and employee's of VAR's and Integrators.   I wonder how manyI actual end users (SAN Mechanic's) that they actually talked to.  I bet ito was less than 10.,      E     -- Among SAN software providers, Veritas Software holds a leadingr)        mindshare position with customers.o  I What the hell is "mindshare" supposed to mean?  It sure doesn't mean thatsJ they make a decent product!  Nor is this statement saying that they make aJ decent product.  Oh yea.  This is a "market perception study"  Which means' we are asking which name you recognize.t  K     -- Despite its late entry into the SAN space, Cisco is established as ad.        sector leader in the eyes of customers.  K Not if you already have a LARGE SAN.  Cisco has name recognition, but has au long way to go.     G     -- Among established storage vendors, McData Corp. (Nasdaq: MCDTA - 	 News) and-F        EMC Corp. (NYSE: EMC - News) are doing the best job of building mindshare in        the SAN segment.j  K This shows that the idiots do not know what they are talking about.  McData3) makes switches.  Not Storage controllers!sA Again.  What does "Mindshare" really mean?  I recognize the name?y  D     -- Many potential buyers of SAN products are coming from outside)        long-established storage channels.B  J Duhh!  As the technology gets cheaper, it becomes more cost effective  for the smaller buisness.1; Is this the part of the selective group that they surveyed?i  L     -- Many big computing and networking suppliers trying to cross over into>        the SAN market are not yet perceived as strong vendors.  G I read this as Cisco is not seen as a strong SAN vendor.   I agree witho that.n      L > !Either this survey is extremely flawed (full survey costs $3000 to read), orJ > !HP really does have an image product and the marketplace doesn't see HP as a > !storage vendor. > !c9 > !Any comments on how one should interpret this survey ?V  J First of all, they avoided saying that they actually talked to anyone that Manages and maintaines a SAN.a It's a PR piece.    D > I think the fact that the survey costs $3000USD to read, is pretty
 indicativeI > of the fact that the survey's authors are trying to sell you something.a  I Gee, I thought the 3K price tag was the total cost to do the survey!  :-)        >e > :-)h >eG > This looks like another thinly-veiled Gartner-type scam, foisted upon  thosee> > with lots o' money and little time to research on their own.   Agree with this.  K > Which way do you think that the research-producers will make more money -R> > selling copies of the survey, or selling actual SAN product? >  > !snip! > L > __________________________________________________________________________C > Bradford J. Hamilton                    "All opinions are my own"sL > bMradAhamiPltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt     "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-'2 >                                          with @"   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 20:26:39 GMT04 From: brad@.gateway.2wire.net (Bradford J. Hamilton)) Subject: Re: Results of SAN vendor surveyt/ Message-ID: <32MAb.258811$Dw6.891587@attbi_s02>   b In article <F0LAb.111843$Eq1.71916@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> writes: !u@ !Bradford J. Hamilton <brad@.gateway.2wire.net> wrote in message+ !news:2xHAb.328032$275.1086687@attbi_s53... 5 !> In article <3FD32146.817D5521@istop.com>, JF Mezeiu$ !<jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:	 !> !snip!gM !> !Judging from the HP apologists on this group, I was fairly convinced that  !HPMJ !> !was seen as one of the leading storage product vendors. Biased or not, !this>I !> !survey didn't put HP anywhere near the leading pack.  This is at odds  !with'G !> !statements from HP that it is a leading vendor of storage products.e !oL !I do not see "HP" as a leading vendor.  I still see Compaq as a top vendor.I !HP wants to claim Compaq/Digital Storage Works as their product now, butmE !they still have competing products that suck, and will not work withnK !Alpha's.  I'm fairly certain that whoever ran this survey is also ignoringp !the Compaq EVA line.1 !   N Although technically an HP product, HP did its best to denigrate EVA when theyK made a presentation to my previous employer.  They spent most of their timejK pushing their "XP" product line, and dismissed EVA as being a "middle-tier"nN product, meant for smaller (less-important?) customers.  The only problem withN their strategy at the time, was that the "XP" line was not usable by VMS (thisL situation may have changed in the past year or so, but I'm now working for a= much smaller company, not in the market for SAN of any type).a  M In any case, the company purchased EVA, and was very pleased with the result.n   !snip!  J __________________________________________________________________________A Bradford J. Hamilton                    "All opinions are my own" K bMradAhamiPltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt     "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-' t0                                          with @"   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 11:58:20 -0800u1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)u- Subject: Re: Routable Protocol for ClusteringH= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071158.63d932aa@posting.google.com>p   "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> wrote in message news:<92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC110534E6@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us>... L > The only limitations to the Proprietary VMS cluster are self imposed by HPK > due to the fact that they will not support IP clustering. All other major  > OSs support IP clustering.  C The TruCluster engineers tried valiantly to use the standard TCP/IP C protocol stack for TruClusters, but timing issues eventually forcedPE them to use a non-standard protocol over IP.  TCP/IP was designed foreE wide-area networks, with much less stringent timing restrictions than C a cluster with high availability and fast failover requirements can 	 tolerate.e  ? MC/ServiceGuard requires a LAN connection (bridged, not routed) F between nodes for cluster heartbeat.  I'd consider HP-UX a "major OS".>  And I'd consider ServiceGuard to be right next in line behind5 TruClusters in terms of cluster capabilities on UNIX.d  B IP itself might conceivably be usable as a VMS cluster interconect= some time in the future, but I expect to see the same sort ofiC compromises in reliability, predictability, performance, etc. as we.D saw in "SCSI Clusters" when using standards-based SCSI technology inF place of more-rigorously engineered storage technology.  But "working,F with caveats" is arguably better than not working at all.  SCS over IP? is not on any current HP OpenVMS roadmaps.  It appears you (and C possibly others in the same predicament) desperately need to see iteF there, so please provide your input to the Product Manager for OpenVMS+ Clusters, Andy (dot) Schneider (at) hp.com..  5 > A good reason for us is the fact we do not have thesN > fiber resources to dedicate paths for Proprietary VMS use exclusively.  ThisL > fact was made apparent 3 years ago when we made the decision to go IP onlyL > on the network, and the resource limitations were a major consideration in > the decision.r  D Most other Cisco shops seem to be able to provide VLANs spanning 2-3@ sites for VMS clusters.  You don't have to create VLANs spanning hundreds of your sites.m  @ > Other considerations include the fact that MOST modern systemsD > require fast failovers of <2 seconds.  To run the ancient flat lanN > architecture which  Proprietary VMS requires, means fail over times up to 45I > seconds.  This is unacceptable for all of the critical service systems,eM > which by the way are high availability, which have to share the same pipes.n  A If you're talking about Spanning Tree reconfiguration times here,P@ there are ways around that (multiple independent Spanning Trees,F tweaking Spanning Tree timers, or Mark Berryman's 802.1w suggestion). : I know of many sites using the default 20-second value forB RECNXINTERVAL thanks to multiple independent VLANs, and even lowerD values at some sites -- 10 seconds at stock exchanges, for example.)  M > I don't see why we are even wasting time on this discussion, because it was L > known well in advance that the network was to be all IP by the end of this > year.H  D You have my sympathy.  It's hard when folks who are supposedly thereB to support your needs that make these types of arbitrary decisions@ just because it makes their jobs easier (but it makes yours muchC harder, and can in turn result in significant adverse impact to the"0 service levels you can provide to the business).   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 12:07:38 -0800f1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)o- Subject: Re: Routable Protocol for Clusteringe= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071207.18c3c27b@posting.google.com>i  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3FD0C41D.4536E458@istop.com>...rP > Out of curiosity, I have only worked with LAVC clusters. How do nodes identify= > each other when you have a different type of interconnect ?i  D On CI, DSSI, and Memory Channel, where there are a limited number ofE potential node IDs, nodes discover each other by periodically polling- all possible IDs.   F As you know, VMS cluster nodes on the various flavors of LANs discoverC each other by sending out periodic multicast Hello packets to a MAC A address that is based on the cluster group number, and in turn byiB listening to that same multicast address to hear the Hello packets from other nodes.o   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 12:36:38 -0800r1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)'B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071236.22039a32@posting.google.com>h  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3FCE493D.627363AB@istop.com>...rK > VMS started in workstations, small servers, midrange servers and high endt5 > systems, and all that is left are high end systems.W  F VMS started in midrange systems (11/780) and moved in both directions,C and you can buy anything from a workstation to a cluster of GS1280srA (arguably mainframe-class) today, with strong products across ther
 entire range.b   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 13:40:09 -0800o1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0312071340.61bb0098@posting.google.com>r  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3FCFB81D.F75699CC@istop.com>... O > Based on comments I have heard here, it seems to me that there is very little>M > cross polination between the VMS and Tandem/NSK folks as well as HP-UX with8 > regards to systems design.  @ VMS, NSK, and Tru64 share IP stack code.  HP-UX will, of course,? benefit from VMS Cluster technology by way of TruClusters code.e  F The designers of Itanium systems have been very helpful and interested2 in meeting the needs of OpenVMS in system designs.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 18:22:45 -0500c* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday( Message-ID: <3FD3B643.B227FCF@istop.com>   Keith Parris wrote:lH > VMS started in midrange systems (11/780) and moved in both directions,E > and you can buy anything from a workstation to a cluster of GS1280srC > (arguably mainframe-class) today, with strong products across the- > entire range.u  M Sorry, while you *can* buy a workstation running VMS, Digital , Compaq and HPEM make sure that they are not priced competitively with the competition. And ifeG Digital wanted VMS to remain in the workstation market, why did DigitalmM abandon all its software products attributed to workstations ? (Decwrite etc)n  L Granted, they have ported Mozzilla to Alpha-VMS. But haven't gotten Adobe toJ port the official PDF reader, especially considering they want to have pdf$ documentation instead of bookreader.   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun,  7 Dec 2003 20:06:14 +0100 (CET)A) From: George Orwell <nobody@mixmaster.it>i2 Subject: Re: The beast is taking shape at Toulouse; Message-ID: <4a81e597b7312a9dcaf27225eddb44f5@mixmaster.it>-  ! nobody <nobody@nobody.com> wrote:    <delete another JF Mezei troll>i   Speaking of beasts:m   Jean-Francois Mezei: 86 Harwood Gates Beaconsfield, QC H9W3A33 (514) 695-8259   A DECADE of usenet trollingC   jfmezei@istop.comO jfmezei.spamnot@istop.come jfmezei@videotron.ca jfmezei@vl.videotron.ca. nospam.jfmezei@videotron.cal "jfmezei"@videotron.ca[nospam] nobody <nobody@nobody.com>) Conspiracy Theory <conspiracy@theory.org>i& Lou Raccoon <L.Raccoon@wilderness.org>$ Flapping Labias <flabia@anatomy.org>% Throbbing vulva <t.vulva@anatomy.org>  Twin Gonads <two@gonads.com>% Loose Scrotum <l.scrotum@anatomy.org>w" Raised Organ <R.Organ@anatomy.org>$ Popped Cherry <P.Cherry@anatomy.org>- Monica Lewinski <billclinton@westchester.com>_' Deep Fried Foreskin <dff@mcdonalds.com>V" Aroma of Smegma <aroma@chanel.org> Wet fart <w.Fart@smell.org>e' Pubic dandruff <P.dandruff@anatomy.org> ( Voluptuous Nipple <V.nipple@anatomy.org>& Inserted Finger <I.Finger@anatomy.org> Pubic Nair <shaved@anatomy.org>M' Flatulent Meatus <F.Meatus@anatomy.org>R% Lihk Mhygroin <L.MyGroin@anatomy.org>- Pre Khum <P.Khum@anatomy.org>s! Phi Mosis <Phi.Mosis@anatomy.org> # Bal Anatis <Bal.Anatis@anatomy.org>i  Fren Ullum <F.Ullum@anatomy.org>$ Ivanna Getlaid <I.Getlaid@onani.org>& Ivanna Wankalot <I.Wankalot@onani.org>$ Ivanna Umpalot <Humpalot@drevil.com>* Wan Tnoneofit <W.Tnoneofit@weirdnames.org> Wan Itbad <W.Itbad@inneed.org>! Wan Towank <W.ToWank@anatomy.org>r Wan Tolik <w.tolik@anatomy.org> $ Testos Terone <t.terone@anatomy.org>! Upper Gonad <U.Gonad@anatomy.org>n! Right Gonad <R.Gonad@anatomy.org>e  Left Gonad <L.Gonad@anatomy.org>$ Tyson's Glands <Tyson.G@anatomy.org> Nose Hair <n.hair@anatomy.org>% Coronal Sulcus <C.Sulcus@anatomy.org>n% Corpus Cavernus <manhood@anatomy.org>o$ Armpit moisture <armpit@anatomy.org> Onani Room <onani@hotels.com>o& Arnie's Banana <weiner@terminator.com>( Raised eyebrows <r.eyebrows@anatomy.org>% Vas Deferens <V.deferens@anatomy.org>o% Naked Canuck <N.canuck@naturists.org>u& Arni's socks <Smelly.Socks@arnold.org>* Notable Exception <N.exception@untied.com>& Unpopped Cherry <U.Cherry@anatomy.org>' Tatooed Ovaries <T.Ovaries@anatomy.org>>' Pierced eyelid <p.eyelid@piercings.org>e( Limp Tomato <limp.tomato@vegetables.org>, Eggplant Earrings <e.earrings@piercings.org>. Banana Underpants <B.Underpants@hillfiger.org> Naval Lint <navel@lint.mil> ' Ingrown Toenail <i.toenail@anatomy.org>.% Empty Stomach <E.Stomach@anatomy.org>.$ Full Stomach <f.stomach@anatomy.org>" Smelly Cat <S.Cat@friends.nbc.com>& Torn Ligament <T.Ligament@anatomy.org># Art Tistic <A.Tistic@modern.museum> ( Furry Raccoon <F.Raccoon@wilderness.org>% Wet Racoon <W.Racoon@wildnerness.org>g" Mad Racoon <M.Racoon@wildlife.org>% Lazy Racoon <L.Racoon@wilderness.org>F& Eaten Racoon <E.Raccoon@mcdonalds.com>' Happy Raccoon <H.Racoon@wilderness.org> ) Sleeping Racoon <S.Racoon@wilderness.org>,' Hungry Racoon <H.Racoon@wilderness.org>a" Horny Raccoon <H.Racoon@fauna.org>( Smart Raccoon <S.Raccoon@wilderness.org>, George W Raccoon <GW.Raccoon@wilderness.org>+ Ronald McRaccoon <r.raccoon@wilderness.org>m* Thirsty Raccoon <T.Raccoon@wilderness.org>( Johnny Raccoon <J.Racoon@wilderness.org>' Oshi Santo <O.Santo@nx01.starfleet.org>s* Oishi Chinko <O.Chinko@nx01.starfleet.org> T.Yellow <T.Yellow@nowhere.com>: Q <queue@continuum.net>i Borg Queen <1of1@borg.org>* Ronald Wilkerson <wilkersonr@sympatico.ca>) John Balterman <j.balterman@sympatico.ca>y   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 11:20:31 -0800 + From: seanobanion@attbi.com (Sean O'Banion) 5 Subject: Re: VAX 11/750 and RL02 - trying to boot VMSe< Message-ID: <f883d5a4.0312071120.ad9b4b3@posting.google.com>    The current almost current SPD, 2 http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP2501/SP2501PF.PDFA lists VAX VMS 6.2 as the last supported version fot a VAX-11/750.t  % OpenVMS VAX 7.3 installastion Guide, hP http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/pdf/OVMS_73_VAX_INSTALL.pdf 7 does not go into details of installaton for a 750, but  H http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/PDF/750_INSTALL.pdf  does.      Sean  j "H Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl> wrote in message news:<bqv9go$25038h$1@ID-143435.news.uni-berlin.de>...+ > <misc@vectorgames.org> schreef in bericht1) > news:bqtqaj$39v@library1.airnews.net...  > > Hello all, > >a > >P > >PI > > I have a VAX 11/750 that wants to join the rest of it's brothers in ao > > VAXCluster.  > >'K > > I was able to dig up a QBus RL02 controller, and using a VAX 4000 I washJ > > able to install VMS 6.1 Standalone Backup to an RL02. The VAX 4000 wasI > > then able to successfully boot from this disk pack. I'm trying to use.L > > the RL02 since it is the only drive that I currently have that I can use* > > with my QBus VAXen *and* UNIBUS Vaxen. > > I > > I have a UNIBUS RL02 controller in the '750, but for some reason when E > > attempting to boot the '750 from RL02 (b dla0) it gives an error:r > >  > > fc2c 064 > >4K > > Obviously the drive and disk pack is okay, since the 4000 seems to worklI > > fine with it. I've tried using two different UNIBUS RL02 controllers,-H > > one of them from a PDP-11/84 that loads RSX-11 from an RL02 - so the  > > controller is probably okay. > >PH > > I have a couple (out of a bunch) TU-58 tapes that can boot the '750,J > > with one of them containing the "boot58" utility, however this is from > > VMS 3.x-something. > > M > > My VAXCluster (a couple of MicroVaxes and a 4000-500) is running VMS 6.1.s > >mL > > Does anyone have any clues to give on what I could possibly do to at getL > > some form of VMS running on this machine? I realize that I can't run VMSK > > 6.1 on the RL02, but I was hoping to at least use it to boot the 11/750t5 > > and enable it to join the cluster (via ethernet).t > >n > > Thanks for any assistance! > >o > >  > >P
 > > - Matt > >  > M > Didn't the 11/750 need something additional to be done with the bootdevice?B > Like running WRITEBOOT?>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 14:42:14 -060023 From: "misc@vectorgames.org" <misc@vectorgames.org>k5 Subject: Re: VAX 11/750 and RL02 - trying to boot VMSe- Message-ID: <br0390$p95@library1.airnews.net>s   Sean,s    F Thanks for the links! The installation guide gives a bit more insight.  F I think I'm still missing something fundamental here, though - One of F the boot PROMs in the 750 is for the RL02 (confirmed by checking it's G memory addresses), and every bit of documentation says that I can boot e the 750 from RL02.  C I did create a bootblock on the RL02 using the "writeboot" utility :A provided by OpenVMS 6.1 using the VAX 4000. No luck - same error.a  5 Could this be a UNIBUS backplane jumper/wiring issue?w  B Maybe the controller requires DMA support but the backplane isn't  configured for it?  D This 750 originally used a MASSBUS interface, and had several Async H cards installed (probably supported a good number of terminals). When I I started restoration of the computer it did not have this RL02 controller.   I I figure that if I can use the RL02 as a "console drive", then I can get eH it to become part of the cluster after booting initially from the RL02. G Unfortunately I don't have a way (yet) of creating a standalone backup   set to TU58.   Thanks for all of the help!n       	- Mattd         Sean O'Banion wrote:" > The current almost current SPD, 4 > http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP2501/SP2501PF.PDFC > lists VAX VMS 6.2 as the last supported version fot a VAX-11/750.e > ' > OpenVMS VAX 7.3 installastion Guide, sR > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/pdf/OVMS_73_VAX_INSTALL.pdf 9 > does not go into details of installaton for a 750, but  J > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/PDF/750_INSTALL.pdf  > does.e >  >>>> >>M >>Didn't the 11/750 need something additional to be done with the bootdevice?C >>Like running WRITEBOOT?q   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:44:21 GMT - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>r5 Subject: Re: VAX 11/750 and RL02 - trying to boot VMS : Message-ID: <93OAb.6294$NN.912954@news1.news.adelphia.net>  E I have successfully booted VAX/VMS 4.0 from an RL02 on a VAX 11/750. >I But getting something newer to boot may take some effort as you must get hH enough critical files on the RL02, and I am not sure that they will fit.   -Johnt wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Dec 2003 20:50:24 -0800e$ From: rcbryan@hotmail.com (RC Bryan)Y Subject: Re: [SURVEY] Do you still code programs in Cobol? Ingres? On vax/vms/alpha/itani3= Message-ID: <fbcf38dc.0312072050.47cac3f4@posting.google.com>>  : > [SURVEY] Do you still code programs in Cobol? Ingres? On > vax/vms/alpha/itaniumn > & > Do you still code programs in Cobol?  E Cobol?  I have not done any Cobol programming of any size since aboutrC 1980.  I touched up some Cobol files a few months ago but that doesr not count for very much.  ' > Do you still code programs in Ingres?t  E Ingres?  I installed Ingres about 1994, don't remember much about it.>  > > Do you still use vax/vms?o  F We have some vaxen around the office.  I think someone still uses them but I don't.   > Alpha?  
 Every day.  
 > Itanium?  D We have a few of these around the office, as well.  They are runningC OpenVMS 8.0 and it is rather a pain, we need to cross compile on ant@ Alpha and move the code over.  We will need to have all our codeD running on Itanium in a year or so and we are moving that direction.  > > Have you been involved in a migration from vax/vms to alpha?" > What problems did you encounter?  C As I recall, the biggest problem we had was moving to IEEE floatinglD point.  Someone decided that it was time to move to IEEE to simplifyF moving data to non-DEC equipment.  It did not simplify a whole lot butF it did create a bunch of headaches.  I am afraid I don't remember much about what they were, sorry.   > ---------- > Employment question: >   > Since I am looking for work...C > Do you have a need for a full time or part time (20 hours a week)s0 > cobol and or Ingres on a vax/alpha programmer?  F The way I see things are going, if you are a software type and work inF the US, you are going to be out of a job in the next ten years or so. B Why pay someone like me the big bucks when you can pay some guy inE India or China 1/10th as much?  My next door neighbor does Cobol/CICSaF and has been unemployed for about six months.  My advice to him and to you is "Learn Java."  F Personally, I have been toying with going to the local technical nightB school to learn to be more of an auto mechanic.  We may export ourF software jobs but we will need people to work on cars as long as there are cars to drive.  
 Good luck,	 /RC Bryans   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.678 ************************or any unix in general) is the biggest piece of shit going. it'sL >>> had it}ccfGň :^Y*4	L	oq?"\kRO~%'!v҅&!wڏ /,z}fmzń`*T|c)F͑8DHN(}<̲>?e84v=^$-ommNMsfՓ0|vf;;;ԂZҗ}}GH}x1٧n5hhw1"Ɏ:
g!;	:KvE!砍.?T";Q1iD⧠\+QL[-p8mNnQx|ѶudKf	s]$D+OS1Hb_	K_T {3tsqmK	9TYIb뾹DjFuM`5Wo
N1LT3Ha{DX_mۈsd8hVJDm';9fo_Hm19E
ZQLs <)ỷҾ~Op-MUuOi7Yx	Y rw7*/6GcՒq8 I-h4wBo^E"CM!ĈRLMC٫1 &,1audW?i&Or>/bPж2=K4̘{7Ϩt>ȭd9}7IZrE-y?
aC%$$*cKi6e)t[;)υN[mW+ӿWn
993o֖o|Y}l&Ϡ,%^3űB(Ԅ⧢ &k-Fe& =.H-.>x-R^R:N9 z>)Sm1L6v!c;:N`KgxGen`|\x~{~;AM!lX30ţML9LExdg!TM{@a7K,Gm~3{r{-iK
'+.,b/g@l !}Y˟{YDsُ[dxo@X2
S)K?LeU]8+D6}ǎĐt8S~;^+њ/._4rʗBs1y
+Kl&3'bq8ueL["m`u3*B8]{W8^hhZ$kgȌ	آo-.3Je,?Ic.'|xSHXݖJ{we,?oqPSVBo\n+y*Ig+K'+]#99ɿ{IKygJio|98Β폿~2ҿ)!ؚ VQQ~*Bw}fҞvc<噠ՕiYՇ+	SC
olB!l@P
N@#nSyzC;	 Giq#Aߕ2{~z`oܹlqހh"';
g3#"QHs)F0xa=p빞{w48sfSss//5L87.|+yO'z0w
=wfJ[)L bh5cmhk>|Qh(uDoݹH\76>scw7+5k(]RT;ӴFˣRd7ì\tPɇk&wH/2~?5&X>b7~bW\-Lϰ&H>d͞)1
#5Oho_Ͽ:Q!Cw\RZKgFpg#a?}-JFK>D2%K1g4':kpu)&Cƥmq}zr[x*Ty]@5G9G@!̻WɖڒVBԲWb>2