1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 20 Dec 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 703       Contents:P Re: Is anyone else seeing Mount Verify messages on the console when you create/d
 Re: Next Week 
 Re: Next Week 
 Re: Next Week 3 Re: OpenVMS, CSWS (apache), PHP and ... Rdb ???!!!! 0 Re: practical questions for Charon-VAX on Wintel( Re: Singapore Exchange to run on OpenVMS( Re: Singapore Exchange to run on OpenVMS( Re: Singapore Exchange to run on OpenVMS$ Where does HP fall in this equation?( Re: Where does HP fall in this equation?( Re: Where does HP fall in this equation?! Re: [TCPIP V5.4] SSH observations ! Re: [TCPIP V5.4] SSH observations ! Re: [TCPIP V5.4] SSH observations   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 18:27:36 GMT > From: Michael Austin <maustin@no-more-spam.firstdbasource.com>Y Subject: Re: Is anyone else seeing Mount Verify messages on the console when you create/d ; Message-ID: <sw0Fb.1632$EL4.185@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com>    Scott Vieth wrote:   > Hi:  > A > Is anyone else seeing Mount Verify messages on your AlphaServer G > console when you create/delete snapshots on an EVA (which is attached  > to your VMS system)? > G > [The m.v. messages show up against the unit that is the source of the  > snapshot.] > A > Please drop me a short email and say "Yeah, me too!" if you are  > experiencing this phenomena. > 	 > Thanks,  >  > -Scott Vieth > svieth@wi.rr.com  ; Make sure you have the latest FIBRE-SCSI patches installed.   F We make extensive use of SNAPSHOTS on our EVA (168x146GB with 72 more E drives on order).  We have 50 or so clusters that "own" a LUN on the  G EVA, then we have a seperate cluster that will make a snapshot for the  G purpose of backing up that LUN to tape.  I will check on Monday to see  $ if we can correlate any MV messages.   Michael.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 15:46:22 GMT 3 From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@earthlink.nospamme>  Subject: Re: Next WeekB Message-ID: <i9_Eb.2274$IM3.2090@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>   Sue Skonetski wrote:  G > Thank you for being an Ambassador, Customer, Partner, Consultant, and  > fans of VMS.H > Thank you for your support of OpenVMS in the past and in the present. 6 > Thank your support and enthusiasm as we go forward. F > Thank you for your help in making VMS the amazing product that it is > and will continue to be.; > Thank you for all the care and concern you have shown me.  > And mostly4 > Thank you for giving me the best job in the world. >  > Warm Regards and a big hug,  > Sue   E In this world of Big Business and continued Cut Backs, this the most  A amazing thing I have seen in a long time !  I hope your attitude  H "infects" other in your company and that we can continue to do business  in the future.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 17:53:31 +0100 ( From: "H Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl> Subject: Re: Next Week9 Message-ID: <bs1v0p$8i5mn$1@ID-143435.news.uni-berlin.de>   @ "Sue Skonetski" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht7 news:857e9e41.0312191901.5de7ecb2@posting.google.com... H > Just a reminder that the HP offices in the US will be closed next week> > (there will still be staff to take care of customer issues). > 7 > I would also like to take this time to say thank you.  > G > Thank you for being an Ambassador, Customer, Partner, Consultant, and  > fans of VMS.G > Thank you for your support of OpenVMS in the past and in the present. 5 > Thank your support and enthusiasm as we go forward. F > Thank you for your help in making VMS the amazing product that it is > and will continue to be.; > Thank you for all the care and concern you have shown me.  > And mostly4 > Thank you for giving me the best job in the world. >  > Warm Regards and a big hug,  > Sue    Sue   I a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and your family. See you in  Madrid next year!    Hans   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 19:24:37 +0100 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net> Subject: Re: Next Week0 Message-ID: <3FE4A1F5.2F13D098@sture.homeip.net>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Sue Skonetski wrote:J > > Just a reminder that the HP offices in the US will be closed next week@ > > (there will still be staff to take care of customer issues). > J > Who's going to feed the engineers and clean up their habitat during that > period ? :-) > P > Considering what you have have done to save VMS, YOU deserve a HUGE thank you.O > Many may bitch about how HP is handling VMS, but I think I speak for many who N > really appreciate all the work that you do to that is very positive for VMS. > 7 > A big thank you and huge virtual hug to Sue. >:-) :-)     ? You beat me to it, JF. I sent her a big virtual hug and kisses.    Thanks Sue.    --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 17:28:53 GMT > From: Michael Austin <maustin@no-more-spam.firstdbasource.com>< Subject: Re: OpenVMS, CSWS (apache), PHP and ... Rdb ???!!!!; Message-ID: <pF%Eb.1626$Wx4.608@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com>    Jack Patteeuw wrote: > Dieter Ro?bach wrote:  > H >> You need Attunity Connect to connect php via ODBC to Rdb. You have toD >> set up sqlsrv as well. I did some tests with this environment, itI >> runs, but finally went to JSP and JDBC as the Attunity Connect is much  >> too expensive (for me). >  >  >  > $$$ is definitely an issue ! > I > I want to know if any one is WRITING a direct (not ODBC) Rdb interface  K > for php.  If not I have to decide if I am crazy enough to do this myself.  > K > There are 2 different Oracle interface to php (ORA and ORI).  The second  J > I believe was actually written by Oracle.  It is highly touted on their L > website, but the "ugly duckling" (Rdb) has no mention of any such efforts. >  > jp >   G You do know that Rdb 7+ can use SQLNet to connect to an Rdb database..  B therefore, the connection is alrady there...  Follow the docs for E configuring your Rdb database to use SQLNet, then try the Oracle php   connector...   M.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:35:12 +0100 2 From: Wilm Boerhout <w.boerhoutOLD@PAINTplanet.nl>9 Subject: Re: practical questions for Charon-VAX on Wintel * Message-ID: <bs1904$lal$1@reader08.wxs.nl>   Bob Koehler wrote:  D  >    Does this mean if I need to run 5.5-2 there's no way I can use4  >    Charon-VAX's raw SCSI access to do my backups?  D What you get when you purchase CHARON-VAX XM/XL, is a certified but I virtual MicroVAX 3100 Model 96 (XM) or Model 98 (XL). This machine, like  F its physical original, needs VMS 5.5-2H4 or higher to operate. So the F short answer to your question is "No". Not because you cannot connect G tape units, but because VMS 5.5-2 will not boot on this "new" hardware.   I Now with CHARON-VAX Industrial you *can* connect your existing SCSI tape  F drive to a SCSI interface on the Windows host. In general, especially I for older drives, Windows drivers for these units will not be available.  I You can configure the emulated TMSCP controller in CHARON-VAX Industrial  G to use the tape device at a specified SCSI port/bus/id/lun address. We  H find that most drives work, but occasionally the implementations of the E SCSI protocol in CHARON-VAX and the one in the tape drive/controller  % combination do not match. I.e., YMMV.   G For initial tape restores at installation time, usually a route can be  E found using tape reader utilities and other kinds of creativity. For  A regular backups, The TMSCP controller can also connect to a tape  A container image. VMS still sees a MUA0: tape device with all the  G relevant characteristics, but physically this is a file on the Windows  6 host, available for backup in the Windows environment.   --  
 Wilm Boerhout    w.boerhoutOLD@PAINTplanet.nl(    (remove OLD PAINT from reply address)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:53:23 +0100 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>1 Subject: Re: Singapore Exchange to run on OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <3FE40E03.1A7605AC@sture.homeip.net>   Rob Young wrote: > _ > In article <3FE25281.601983FE@sture.homeip.net>, Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes: , > > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > > Andrew,  > > G > > Please stop cluttering up this newsgroup with attacks on Rob Young.  > > K > > We can do it all by ourselves since he tried calling people here liars.  > >  > C >         That isn't true.  You're acting like Andrew.  Andrew just B >         today trots out VMS revenue decline (from a company withC >         declining revenues for the last 10 quarters - sheesh) and 3 >         Keith pointed out that simply isn't true.  >   0 Warning. NEVER say that I am acting like Andrew.C Having said that, when we can steer him onto other subjects, he can H speak common sense. I often feel that he is here just to wind you up for( sport, and you take the bait every time.   O >         What I said is they are either lying or ill-informed.  This is in the 3 >         context of the non-sensical statement of:  > B > "VMS is dead, Compaq killed it last year, didn't you know that!" >  >         What I said was this:  > P > > Peter's customer believes what they believe because they see nothing from HP > > to the contrary. > $ >         Not at all.  It is either: > " >                 1)  ill-informed& >                 2)  a deliberate lie >   H Now you are insulting Peter's customer. Wander around any bulletin boardF or discussion group on the 'net and you will find people who have fondD (or not so fond) memories of "VAX/VMS", but assume that it no longer exists.   G Now tell me why that now I am looking for a new job all the headhunters B take a deep breath when I mention VMS and can only say "Oh, that's difficult".   G Or are they all congenital liars too? Perhaps it's all a conspiracy and 6 they are simply trying to drive my asking price down.   H What is it about commercial reality that you do not understand? If it isG not visible and cannot be bragged about on the golf course by those who 0 sign the cheques, it has a serious disadvantage.    > ---- > F >         By the way, if VMS is dead, why are its revenues increasing? >   = Prove it. or better still, let's see HP actually announce it.    --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:07:02 +0100 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>1 Subject: Re: Singapore Exchange to run on OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <3FE41136.49030275@sture.homeip.net>   Rob Young wrote: > p > In article <k3uEb.89586$ea%.75401@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >   
 <big snip>   > / > > Exactly who are you accusing of lying here?  > >  > A >  Someone that would say VMS is dead.  That statement is either:  >  >    1)  ill-informed  >    2)  a deliberate lie  >    Let's take 1) first.  B Ill-informed, yes, that I can believe. But whose job is it to keep potential customers informed?    2) Plain common sense here:   7 The customer is always right, even when they are wrong. 7 The customer is always right, even when they are wrong. 7 The customer is always right, even when they are wrong.     8 Even when the customer is wrong, NEVER call them a liar.8 Even when the customer is wrong, NEVER call them a liar.8 Even when the customer is wrong, NEVER call them a liar.     --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:01:57 +0100 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>1 Subject: Re: Singapore Exchange to run on OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <3FE41E15.1C85E20A@sture.homeip.net>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: >  > John Smith wrote:  > > Paul Sture wrote:  > >  > >>Bill Todd wrote: > >> > >>> 
 > >><snip> > >>I > >>>Bullshit.  The problem is clear:  HP isn't willing to step up to the D > >>>plate and support VMS.  If people want to be 'pro-active', theyI > >>>should beat on HP to make the kind of visible commitment to VMS that B > >>>would allow them to encourage others to use it as you suggest- > >>>without being irresponsible in doing so.  > >>>  > >>G > >>Team Christmas lunch today. Extremely enjoyable do, but the general G > >>consensus around the table was that since HP do not promote VMS, we 2 > >>are all off to other things as fast as we can. > >>J > >>It's an incredible shame. The best and most competent team I have everE > >>worked with breaking up. Not just VMS though, we had a much wider = > >>variety of skills, but got put under the VMS only banner.  > >>? > >>Not needed any more, because, well "VMS is dead, isn't it?"  > >  > >  > > O > > Sorry to hear that Paul. At this rate, pretty soon the only people who will M > > be left in c.o.v. will be the cheerleading section - Keith & Rob, and the   > > battlebots - Bob and Andrew. > >  > > @ > I will be long gone. I only got involved in this group becauseE > Rob and other members of the Choir started posting FUD and BS about B > Sun in what was almost certainly an attempt to deflect criticism& > about Digital's handling of OpenVMS. > * > Pretty pathetic when you think about it. > D > Sadly for Rob and some other members of the choir nothing much hasH > changed, they are still up to their old tricks all be it with somewhat > more degraded reputations. > A > Even sadder there have been some new entrants who actually make  > Rob look sane and reasonable.  > B > I will be gone when Rob and the choir no longer have an audienceA > for their BS or when they stop foisting it on the ether. At the < > moment sadly the former looks more likely than the latter. > A > I say sadly because under all the squatulent BS and attempts to D > deflect real failings on the part of its owners onto other vendors" > lies a competent and usefull OS. >   D Well, Andrew, now that I've had a taste of Rob baiting, I must say I' find it a quite entertaining sport. :-)   > But on a serious note, you recently mentioned Sun's clusteringD abilities. Can you please point me to relevant urls where I can readG about its capabilities? This is _not_ a wind up. I would like to expand  my horizons.  - Cheers in advance, and have a good Christmas.    --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:17:13 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> - Subject: Where does HP fall in this equation? H Message-ID: <dC_Eb.99390$ea%.77311@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   Quote of the Week.    F  "Organizations that don't make a significant commitment to Research &L Development do not survive over the long haul -- no matter how dominant they are at a given moment.  A The waves of other peoples' progress are simply too powerful, too 0 relentless, to be met with halfhearted efforts."  
 Robert Buderi  Editor in Chief,! MIT's Technology Review magazine,  Dec. 2003/Jan. 2004, Page 4 7 http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/buderi1203.asp  (subscription required.)    -----------------------------  E It seems to me that in the computer industry either a company invests D significant effort at {invention and promotion/advertising} of their; inventions, or they become THE low-cost sell of Billyboxes.   @ Simply having a slogan like 'Invent' fulfills neither condition.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:00:02 -0800 / From: Greg Cagle <news@removethisgregcagle.com> 1 Subject: Re: Where does HP fall in this equation? / Message-ID: <vu900thj3b8tad@corp.supernews.com>    John Smith wrote:    > Quote of the Week. >  > H >  "Organizations that don't make a significant commitment to Research &N > Development do not survive over the long haul -- no matter how dominant they > are at a given moment. > C > The waves of other peoples' progress are simply too powerful, too 2 > relentless, to be met with halfhearted efforts." >  > Robert Buderi  > Editor in Chief,# > MIT's Technology Review magazine,  > Dec. 2003/Jan. 2004, Page 4 9 > http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/buderi1203.asp  > (subscription required.) >   > ------------------------------ > G > It seems to me that in the computer industry either a company invests F > significant effort at {invention and promotion/advertising} of their= > inventions, or they become THE low-cost sell of Billyboxes.  > B > Simply having a slogan like 'Invent' fulfills neither condition.  C First, the quote from Buderi refers strictly to R&D spending. There > is no reference to promotion and advertising in the quote. YouA are drawing that conclusion, not Buderi, and it's not relevant or A even connected to Buderi's point about R&D spending in the quote.   6 Second, according to the Q4 2003 quarterly overview at  S http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/investor/financials/quarters/2003/q4overview.html#selected   C HP spend $907M on R&D last quarter. Seems to me that's "significant > effort" - wouldn't you agree? So what you are really saying is< that IN YOUR OPINION HP did not invest significant effort at= promotion/advertising of their inventions. Unfortunately, the 1 quote from Buderi has no relevance to your point.    - Greg --  
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 18:29:13 GMT   From: CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net>1 Subject: Re: Where does HP fall in this equation? * Message-ID: <3FE4950D.1070200@prodigy.net>   Greg Cagle wrote:  > John Smith wrote:  >  >> Quote of the Week.  >> >>I >>  "Organizations that don't make a significant commitment to Research & B >> Development do not survive over the long haul -- no matter how  >> dominant they >> are at a given moment.  >>D >> The waves of other peoples' progress are simply too powerful, too3 >> relentless, to be met with halfhearted efforts."  >> >> Robert Buderi >> Editor in Chief, $ >> MIT's Technology Review magazine, >> Dec. 2003/Jan. 2004, Page 4: >> http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/buderi1203.asp >> (subscription required.)  >>! >> ------------------------------  >>H >> It seems to me that in the computer industry either a company investsG >> significant effort at {invention and promotion/advertising} of their > >> inventions, or they become THE low-cost sell of Billyboxes. >>C >> Simply having a slogan like 'Invent' fulfills neither condition.  >  > E > First, the quote from Buderi refers strictly to R&D spending. There @ > is no reference to promotion and advertising in the quote. YouC > are drawing that conclusion, not Buderi, and it's not relevant or C > even connected to Buderi's point about R&D spending in the quote.  > 8 > Second, according to the Q4 2003 quarterly overview at > V > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/investor/financials/quarters/2003/q4overview.html#selected  >  > & > HP spend $907M on R&D last quarter.    Toner & ink: $906.5  All else: $0.5   <g>      Seems to me that's "significant @ > effort" - wouldn't you agree? So what you are really saying is> > that IN YOUR OPINION HP did not invest significant effort at? > promotion/advertising of their inventions. Unfortunately, the 3 > quote from Buderi has no relevance to your point.  >  > - Greg     --  G After being targeted with gigabytes of trash by the "SWEN" worm, I have F concluded we must conceal our e-mail address.  Our true address is theF mirror image of what you see before the "@" symbol.  It's a shame such( steps are necessary.          ...Charlie   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:13:18 +0100  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>* Subject: Re: [TCPIP V5.4] SSH observations2 Message-ID: <bs14b6$9he$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:I > I tried SSH with TCPIP_SSH V5.3 (which had problems) and now with V5.4. J > It seems better but still not perfect. Every time I connect to my serverF > (eg. via localhost) and later terminate the connection, the I/O rateP > goes beyond the ceiling (6 digit rate) and disconnect needs some/many seconds. > K > I heard, that V5.3 also had this problems (though I only saw V5.3 sending N > an illegal packet on disconnect, with an error message, but disconnects ok). >  > jfi  > M We have been trying SSH for some time now, more specific between Sun Solaris  P with OpenSSH and VMS. In this project, we want to use it for file transfer etc. M I tried all kind of possiblities with SFTP, SCP and tunneling. After several  N hours of testing, my comment on the present SSH kit (or SSH in general ?) can $ only be written down in comic style:   &*$#&@#$*&^%$ !!!!!!!!!!!   O Some of the problems may have to do with compatibilitiy issues between SSH and  = OpenSSH, no doubt. But other things I found are unbelievable.   P I'm going to make a lengthy report of my observations and send it to the people ) responsible for this piece of 'software'.   Q It is not surprising to find bugs in new software, but here it was the other way  O around. I was surprised to find to find some functionality that actualy worked.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:28:31 GMT 4 From: brad@.gateway.2wire.net (Bradford J. Hamilton)* Subject: Re: [TCPIP V5.4] SSH observations0 Message-ID: <j0ZEb.598842$HS4.4389329@attbi_s01>  S In article <bs14b6$9he$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> writes: ! !Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: J !> I tried SSH with TCPIP_SSH V5.3 (which had problems) and now with V5.4.K !> It seems better but still not perfect. Every time I connect to my server G !> (eg. via localhost) and later terminate the connection, the I/O rate Q !> goes beyond the ceiling (6 digit rate) and disconnect needs some/many seconds.  !>  L !> I heard, that V5.3 also had this problems (though I only saw V5.3 sendingO !> an illegal packet on disconnect, with an error message, but disconnects ok).  !>   !> jfi !>  N !We have been trying SSH for some time now, more specific between Sun Solaris Q !with OpenSSH and VMS. In this project, we want to use it for file transfer etc.  N !I tried all kind of possiblities with SFTP, SCP and tunneling. After several O !hours of testing, my comment on the present SSH kit (or SSH in general ?) can  % !only be written down in comic style:  !  !&*$#&@#$*&^%$ !!!!!!!!!!!  P I tried the SSH for OpenVMS demo (from Process) more than a year or so ago.  My O tests  of Secure Copy and Secure FTP between a VMS and AIX box were failures.   E I could only seem to use those functions correctly between VMS boxes.   G I didn't get the chance to pursue/resolve the issue with Process or VMS J Engineering, becuase management decided to wait for SSH on TCP/IP ServicesO (they figured the bugs would all be worked out by then).  I wonder if they were  wrong...   ! P !Some of the problems may have to do with compatibilitiy issues between SSH and > !OpenSSH, no doubt. But other things I found are unbelievable. ! Q !I'm going to make a lengthy report of my observations and send it to the people  * !responsible for this piece of 'software'. ! R !It is not surprising to find bugs in new software, but here it was the other way P !around. I was surprised to find to find some functionality that actualy worked. !   J __________________________________________________________________________A Bradford J. Hamilton                    "All opinions are my own" K bMradAhamiPltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt     "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-'  0                                          with @"   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:39:00 -0700 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> * Subject: Re: [TCPIP V5.4] SSH observationsB Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031220073746.01fd08d8@raptor.psccos.com>  3 At 07:28 AM 12/20/2003, Bradford J. Hamilton wrote: > >In article <bs14b6$9he$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>, Dirk Munk  ><munk@home.nl> writes: " >!Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:K >!> I tried SSH with TCPIP_SSH V5.3 (which had problems) and now with V5.4. L >!> It seems better but still not perfect. Every time I connect to my serverH >!> (eg. via localhost) and later terminate the connection, the I/O rateJ >!> goes beyond the ceiling (6 digit rate) and disconnect needs some/many 	 >seconds.  >!> M >!> I heard, that V5.3 also had this problems (though I only saw V5.3 sending L >!> an illegal packet on disconnect, with an error message, but disconnects  >ok).  >!>  >!> jfi  >!> N >!We have been trying SSH for some time now, more specific between Sun SolarisD >!with OpenSSH and VMS. In this project, we want to use it for file  >transfer etc.N >!I tried all kind of possiblities with SFTP, SCP and tunneling. After severalL >!hours of testing, my comment on the present SSH kit (or SSH in general ?)  >can& >!only be written down in comic style: >! >!&*$#&@#$*&^%$ !!!!!!!!!!!  > H >I tried the SSH for OpenVMS demo (from Process) more than a year or so 	 >ago.  My E >tests  of Secure Copy and Secure FTP between a VMS and AIX box were  
 >failures.F >I could only seem to use those functions correctly between VMS boxes. > H >I didn't get the chance to pursue/resolve the issue with Process or VMSK >Engineering, becuase management decided to wait for SSH on TCP/IP Services L >(they figured the bugs would all be worked out by then).  I wonder if they  >were 	 >wrong...   ' We don't have those problems anymore...    ------J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+J | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |J | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |J | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |J | http://www.process.com        |                                        |J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.703 ************************