0 INFO-VAX	Sun, 02 Feb 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 66      Contents: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia ev7 spec Re: Geriatric equipment.O Re: How many other sites had their CSLG licenses expire at midnight last night? ! OpenVMS 7.2 (Alpha) Boot Problems - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 , Re: Privileges in a shareable image question Re: Rogues Gallery Re: Rogues Gallery2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ... Re: VMS @25 CD now availableP Re: What makes newsgroups so much fun ... (was: HP Sets the Stage for   Alpha's   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 08:37:09 +0100 1 From: SAP Trainee <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>  Subject: Columbia & Message-ID: <3E3CCAA5.3050806@Free.fr>  C I'm very affected by the Columbia crew tragedy, 17 years after the  I Challenger accident. It is sad, for them and for their families, and for   the whole scientific community.    D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 15:55:59 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: Columbia J Message-ID: <jcb%9.199710$ej1.153846@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message , news:-OqdnY4Mput5ZaGjXTWcoA@metrocast.net... > @ > "SAP Trainee" <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> wrote in message" > news:3E3CCAA5.3050806@Free.fr...F > > I'm very affected by the Columbia crew tragedy, 17 years after theD > > Challenger accident. It is sad, for them and for their families, and for # > > the whole scientific community.  > F > Even sadder that there seems to be some real chance that it resulted fromA > failure to learn the lessons of the Challenger disaster.  If it  indeed turnsC > out that the insulation from the ET damaged the tiles on the left 	 wing, the @ > cavalier assumption that it had not (just because some vaguely similar F > incidents in the past had not) bears a disturbing resemblance to theE > attitude that a few degrees more chill wouldn't make any difference  17 years > ago. > F > One of the commentators mentioned that early shuttle flights carried repairB > tiles just in case damage was discovered in orbit - but the NASA
 commentaryF > in the afternoon made it clear that this was no longer the case, nor was E > there any provision even to get out and examine them (e.g., so that  theyB > could have bunkered down in the space station if they looked bad until a F > rescue could be arranged).  I tend to get steamed up at the level of9 > incompetence in our health care system (where so-called  professionals justC > don't bother with a lot of details that don't appear important to  them at E > the time - while encouraging their patients and associated families  toD > believe that they're right on top of things):  my father died as a	 result of @ > it, and my mother is having a rough time right now for similar reasons.  IfE > the same kind of casual negligence can happen even in NASA, then it  seems asC > if it may be something more in the nature of a pervasive societal 
 > deficiency.      My $0.02....  F A lot of this denial of the details is due to never ending emphasis onC cutting costs, without necessarily looking at the potential effects D those cutbacks have. And this holds true for NASA as much as it doesC across corporate America, public and private healthcare, and indeed E beyond that to government and corporations worldwide to one extent or  another.  E We may never know whether it was damaged heat shield tiles or damaged D carbon on the leading edge of the wing that was the initiating eventF in the Columbia breakup. Even if extra tiles were on-board, there's noD assurance that they could have been reliably repaired/replaced while	 in orbit.   E There will be all the argument that carrying the extra tiles and glue D and tools amounted to wasted weight each and every flight, and henceF lower payloads and extra fuel costs, and for the low-order probability' that a space repair would be effectual.   = On the other hand, not having the materials on-board, and the F *possibility* of making a repair, if indeed it were some of the 'fieldA replaceable' tiles that were damaged, has the cost of killing the 9 crew, loss of a $1B+ orbiter, the associated costs of the E post-incident investigation and recovery/reconstruction, the downtime D costs of the remainder of the fleet, the payroll of all those on theC ground who will now be idle, the possible replacement cost of a new 1 orbiter should a replacement be built, and so on.   F It's hard to know whether NASA has been 'penny-wise and pound foolish'E in this case. However, as any actuary will tell you, there is a price C that can be put on a human life - it's merely a question of whether @ the price and the probability are acceptable to those making the	 decision.     @ To bring this back to a co.of.vs.. topic, and not to say that HPC should be using this tragic event in any overt marketing sense, but : disaster recovery capabilities and implementation of those? capabilities will now again be in people's minds. We all know a ? woefully marketing challenged product that HP has that could be  marketed for these purposes.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:14:44 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: Columbia 6 Message-ID: <1030202120329.44437B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  $ On Sun, 2 Feb 2003, Bill Todd wrote:   > @ > "SAP Trainee" <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> wrote in message" > news:3E3CCAA5.3050806@Free.fr...F > > I'm very affected by the Columbia crew tragedy, 17 years after theL > > Challenger accident. It is sad, for them and for their families, and for# > > the whole scientific community.  > K > Even sadder that there seems to be some real chance that it resulted from N > failure to learn the lessons of the Challenger disaster.  If it indeed turnsM > out that the insulation from the ET damaged the tiles on the left wing, the H > cavalier assumption that it had not (just because some vaguely similarF > incidents in the past had not) bears a disturbing resemblance to theN > attitude that a few degrees more chill wouldn't make any difference 17 years > ago. > M > One of the commentators mentioned that early shuttle flights carried repair M > tiles just in case damage was discovered in orbit - but the NASA commentary J > in the afternoon made it clear that this was no longer the case, nor wasJ > there any provision even to get out and examine them (e.g., so that theyJ > could have bunkered down in the space station if they looked bad until a > rescue could be arranged).  E Columbia was in a very different orbit than the station.  Its orbital A plane was about 30 degrees, vs 55 degrees for the station.  Plane E changes require a very large amount of fuel; it is extremely unlikely B Columbia could have changed planes sufficiently to rendezvous with the station.  E However, one of the benefits having a space station is it is supposed B to be a safe refuge; maybe NASA should consider in the future onlyB launching shuttles into orbits where a rendezvous with the stationE would be possible, even when the particular mission has nothing to do  with the station.   + >  I tend to get steamed up at the level of L > incompetence in our health care system (where so-called professionals justK > don't bother with a lot of details that don't appear important to them at H > the time - while encouraging their patients and associated families toN > believe that they're right on top of things):  my father died as a result ofM > it, and my mother is having a rough time right now for similar reasons.  If N > the same kind of casual negligence can happen even in NASA, then it seems asC > if it may be something more in the nature of a pervasive societal 
 > deficiency.  >  > - bill  B I am sorry to hear about your parents, and am sorry to have called? you a jerk in another thread.  I think we're all under a lot of E stress right now.  Please accept my apology, and I'll try to exercise  more restraint in the future.    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 17:39:31 GMT = From: peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)  Subject: ev7 spec 1 Message-ID: <3e3d57a0.6389375@news.cable.ntl.com>   . http://www.spec.org/cpu2000/results/res2003q1/       Peter Watkinson % peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.com  remove <nospam> to reply :-)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:37:09 +0100" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>! Subject: Re: Geriatric equipment. 6 Message-ID: <b1j3e5$13niu9$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>  E "Leigh Bowden" <LGBowden@bowdenfamily.fsnet.co.uk> schreef in bericht ( news:b1hegb$vku$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...I > Where can I find detailed lists of old equipment like VAX 6000 and 7000 ? > series and info on the XMI bus and stuff that attaches to it.  >  > Also RA92's and TU81's etc.  > L I have a System & Options handbook from the early 90's (on paper). What kind of information are you after?   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Feb 03 11:59:47 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) X Subject: Re: How many other sites had their CSLG licenses expire at midnight last night?) Message-ID: <zyYtrFRgN$NY@elias.decus.ch>   d In article <5a85bce2.0301310715.4400a016@posting.google.com>, svieth@wi.rr.com (Scott Vieth) writes: > Hi:  > , > I'll admit that we got caught by surprise. >   E Ouch. Last summer I got caught out by forgetting to renew my Hobbyist A license and the first I knew about it was when  a reboot threw up 3 license expired messages and switched my Alpha off.   E IIRC the Montagar site wasn't working, and it was a weekend, so I was A stuck for a few days. I had to set the date back simply to get it D booted with TCP/IP up so that I could FTP the licenses across once I	 got them.   I This was just a Hobbyist system, so didn't cause me a loss of income, but  it was still a pain.   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 14:23:38 -0500. From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" <dougq@iglou.com>* Subject: OpenVMS 7.2 (Alpha) Boot Problems' Message-ID: <3e3c1ebd_1@news.iglou.com>    Hi...   , I've got a PC164-based machine I've built...  . The SCSI controller is a PCS3100 (Professional, Computer Systems), SymbiosLogic-based 53c875/ adapter... which works fine with Debian so far, * though it's not bootable for Windows 2000.  0 Trying to boot OpenVMS leads to several possible2 error scenarios, but the most frequent can be seen in the session below:   F ======================================================================  . `ff.fe.fd.fc.fb.fa.f9.f8.f7.f6.f5.f3.f2.f1.f0.* ef.b0.b1.b2.b3.ee.ed.ec.f4.eb.ea.e9.e8.e7.  @ Digital AlphaPC 164 500 MHz Console V5.5-1, Jul 14 1999 12:37:45 >>>show deviceD dka200.2.0.7.0             DKA200             SEAGATE ST39173W  6244D dka300.3.0.7.0             DKA300        SONY CD-ROM CDU-8003A  1.9aD dka301.3.0.7.0             DKA301        SONY CD-ROM CDU-8003A  1.9aD dka302.3.0.7.0             DKA302        SONY CD-ROM CDU-8003A  1.9aD dka303.3.0.7.0             DKA303        SONY CD-ROM CDU-8003A  1.9aD dka304.3.0.7.0             DKA304        SONY CD-ROM CDU-8003A  1.9aD dka305.3.0.7.0             DKA305        SONY CD-ROM CDU-8003A  1.9aD dka306.3.0.7.0             DKA306        SONY CD-ROM CDU-8003A  1.9aD dka307.3.0.7.0             DKA307        SONY CD-ROM CDU-8003A  1.9aE dqa0.0.0.11.0              DQA0       Pioneer CD-ROM ATAPI Mod  E1.05  dva0.0.0.0.1               DVA0 D mka400.4.0.7.0             MKA400     EXABYTE EXB-85058SQANXR1  07J0> ewa0.0.0.9.0               EWA0              00-00-94-A3-F8-97> pka0.7.0.7.0               PKA0                  SCSI Bus ID 7 >>>show config3                         Digital AlphaPC 164 500 MHz    SRM Console:    V5.5-1E PALcode:        OpenVMS PALcode V1.21-9, Digital UNIX PALcode V1.23-8    SROM Revision: 2.2 Alpha 21164A-2" DECchip (tm) 21172 CIA ASIC Pass 3   MEMORY 128 Meg of system memory     PCI Bus 5      Bus 00  Slot 05: ATI Mach 64 Graphics Controller 0      Bus 00  Slot 07: NCR 53C875 Scsi ControllerF                                    pka0.7.0.7.0          SCSI Bus ID 7J                                    dka200.2.0.7.0         SEAGATE ST39173WE                                    dka300.3.0.7.0         SONY CD-ROM  CDU-8003E                                    dka301.3.0.7.0         SONY CD-ROM  CDU-8003E                                    dka302.3.0.7.0         SONY CD-ROM  CDU-8003E                                    dka303.3.0.7.0         SONY CD-ROM  CDU-8003E                                    dka304.3.0.7.0         SONY CD-ROM  CDU-8003E                                    dka305.3.0.7.0         SONY CD-ROM  CDU-8003E                                    dka306.3.0.7.0         SONY CD-ROM  CDU-8003E                                    dka307.3.0.7.0         SONY CD-ROM  CDU-8003A                                    mka400.4.0.7.0         EXABYTE  EXB-85058SQA5      Bus 00  Slot 08: Intel 82378IB PCI to ISA Bridge 6      Bus 00  Slot 09: DECchip 21140 Network ControllerJ                                    ewa0.0.0.9.0          00-00-94-A3-F8-970      Bus 00  Slot 11: CMD PCI0646 IDE Controller/                                    dqa.0.0.11.0 H                                    dqa0.0.0.11.0          Pioneer CD-ROM ATAPI      ISA K Slot    Device  Name            Type         Enabled  BaseAddr  IRQ     DMA  0 B         0       MOUSE           Embedded        Yes     60      12A         1       KBD             Embedded        Yes     60      1 A         2       COM1            Embedded        Yes     3f8     4 A         3       COM2            Embedded        Yes     2f8     3 A         4       LPT1            Embedded        Yes     3bc     7 I         5       FLOPPY          Embedded        Yes     3f0     6       2    >>>boot dka300 (boot dka300.3.0.5.0 -flags 0)/ block 0 of dka300.3.0.5.0 is a valid boot block & reading 896 blocks from dka300.3.0.5.0 bootstrap code read in3 base = 180000, image_start = 0, image_bytes = 70000  initializing HWRPB at 2000! initializing page table at 172000  initializing machine state# setting affinity to the primary CPU  jumping to bootstrap code     5     OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System, Version V7.2     A %PKA0, Copyright (c) 1998 IntraServer Technology Inc. PKW V2.1.20 > %PKA0, SCSI Chip is SYM53C875, Operating mode is SE Ultra SCSI) %PKA0, OFFLINE.  ROM Checksum read error.     F ======================================================================  B Here's what lspci had to say about the adapter under Debian Linux:    I 00:07.0 SCSI storage controller: LSI Logic / Symbios Logic (formerly NCR)  53c875 (rev 03) 6  Flags: bus master, medium devsel, latency 255, IRQ 17  I/O ports at 80006  Memory at 0000000009800000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable)6  Memory at 0000000009801000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable)-  Expansion ROM at 0000000082850000 [disabled]     5 The jumper that appears to deal with the rom is hard- 1 wired in one particular position, but it could be 2 removed and replaced with a jumper block. However,1 the ROM BIOS *is* working, I pulled the board and  stuck it in a PC and it's fine.   : The Symbios BIOS version is 4.03, and I see later versions6 are available, and I have one. But the flash chip is a6 32k device, and the updated BIOS I downloaded is a 64k device.   8 If it's sure to be a BIOS issue, I might be able to find9 a 27x512 to use in place of the 27x256, assuming the pin-  outs are compatible...   Jumpers:  7 There is a jumper block with four jumpers, one shorting 5 block. It must be in the rightmost position (shorting 4 pins 7 & 8) or Debian doesn't complete a boot. Three6 other jumpers in another block each are shorted; I saw6 no reported changes by lspci when I changed which ones were or were not shorted.   8 I also have an NCR810 card I tried, but didn't have much6 luck with it either... the machine wouldn't even boot!6 I found that adding a jumper the block on pins 7&8 got( past that, but dunno what to try next...   tia, -doug quebbeman    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 18:53:55 +1030 / From: Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> 6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31, Message-ID: <3e3cd591_1@news.chariot.net.au>   Bill Todd wrote:> > "Mark Daniel" <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> wrote in message( > news:3e3c6c2c_1@news.chariot.net.au...
 8< snip 8<J > OK:  once was merely inane, but repetition after correction demonstratesM > active incompetence - unless, of course, you can point out (with citations) L > several individuals who have repeatedly opined that the VMS team would not? > succeed in this endeavor (i.e., 'some persistent naysayers').  >  > Clearer now?  E ;^)   OK Bill, I don't really mind.  Wouldn't be the first time I've  H been told I was wrong.  In the so-called grand scheme of things I doubt D whether this small item oft' will be recorded amongst the annals of I Computer Science 101.  Let me rephrase the entire heart-felt citation so  @ as not to give (or at least reduce as much as humanly possible)   opportunity for further polemic.  # Congratulations to VMS Engineering.   F +--------------------------------------------------------------------+E   Mark Daniel                         http://wasd.vsm.com.au/adelaide F   mailto:Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au (Mark.Daniel@dsto.defence.gov.au)F +--------------------------------------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 19:55:54 GMT ( From: Alder <PGDEHMKOKIMD@spammotel.com>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31, Message-ID: <3E3C2642.3020704@spammotel.com>   Sue Skonetski wrote: > -----Original Message----- >  > From: Grant, Clair > ( > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 3:40 PM > $ > To: OpenVMS Systems Software Group >  > Subject: VMS boots on Itanium  >  > 6 > list of wonderful engineers removed by Sue Skonetski >     Q Here is the list (as provided by Jean-Franois Marchal on the WASD mailing list.     Merci, Jean-Franois:   	 ASSEMBLER  Shafiq Ahmed Larry Ingram
 Helen Willett  Joanne Neschke IMACRO Peter Haynes
 Karl Puder John Reagan  C  Walt Carrell Val McCutcheon	 Tom Osten 
 Rich Peterson  Duane Smith	 Ed Vogel   CRTL
 Dave Faulkner 
 Brad McCusker  Charlie MuCutcheon	  BLISS / GEM / LIBOTS Deborah Belcher  Ron Brender  Peter Craig	 Lucy Hamnett Tom Lavigne  Jeannie Lieb Sheila Mitchell ( Members of the Intel Nashua Software Lab KERNEL TOOLS Richard Bishop
 Chip Dancy
 Paul Hider Anders Johansson Jeff Nelson ) OBJECTS and IMAGES (LINKER, ANALYZE, ...) 	 Walt Arbo 	 Josh Cope  Hartmut Becker Robert Deininger David Elins  John Hallyburton Todd Schoeller Steve Skonetski  DCL, DIR ...
 Gerry Gleeson 	 Dale Gunn  Bob Ingraham George Maiewski 
 Phil Nezballa 
 Larry Pearson  Dave Vaughan EXEC, DRIVERS, XQP, RMS  Paul Benoit  Ken Blaylock Tony Camuso 
 Andrew Crager  Stu Davison  Burns Fisher Jeff Friedrichs  Doug Gordon  Clair Grant  John Harney  Paul Jacobi  Greg Jordan  Jim Kauffman Forrest Kenney Fred Kleinsorge  Andy Kuehnel Dennis Mattoon Christian Moser  Gary Newsted
 Karen Noel Paul Rivera  Elinor Woods   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Feb 2003 01:23:01 -0800 / From: Brannon_Batson@yahoo.com (Brannon Batson) 6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31= Message-ID: <4495ef1f.0302020123.4d3c7e81@posting.google.com>   m bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0302011833.2fb6a7b0@posting.google.com>...  > [snip] > ? > true, but what is one mans junk is another mans treasure, and > > Intel now has alpha and the alpha engineering team, and they< > will take alpha and incorporate it bit by bit into itanium$ > and they will reap the rewards ...  , oh, is that what we're supposed to be doing?   Brannon  not speaking for Intel   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:42:47 +0100" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 316 Message-ID: <b1j3oe$13c9ua$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>  B "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> schreef in bericht$ news:b1et1g$1nc$1@web1.cup.hp.com... > -----Original Message----- >    Congratulations ! / After VAX/VMS, AXP/VMS there's now I64/VMS ....    Hans  ' BTW Does it have a >>> console prompt ?    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 01:32:21 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 312 Message-ID: <GRydnVSvv80fJqGjXTWcpA@metrocast.net>  < "Mark Daniel" <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> wrote in message& news:3e3c6c2c_1@news.chariot.net.au... > Bill Todd wrote:9 > > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message 4 > > news:b1go19$131crj$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de... > > 0 > >>In article <3e3b45cb_2@news.chariot.net.au>,5 > >>Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes:  > 8< snip 8<G > >>>Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few J > >>>obstacles and many naysayers have shown, once again, that they can do@ > >>>whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!) > >>>  > >>I > >>I don't think that there was anyone here who doubted that engineering J > >>could make VMS boot and even run on IA64.  The naysayers just doubt it& > >>is the path they should be taking. > > G > > Exactly.  Terry made the same inane comment to any publication that  would K > > publish him, and it was just as unfounded there.  I would like to think  I'm L > > about as persistent a 'naysayer' as exists, and while back when the boot > 8< snip 8< >  > I am not an industry analyst. B > I have never profered any opinion (in this forum) on this issue.< > In that context I do not think my remark deserved 'inane'.  L I'm afraid that whether a comment qualifies as 'inane' is a function neitherG of whether one is an industry analyst (though they may be more prone to G utter such than the general population) nor of whether one has ventured ! previous comments on the subject.    > Perhaps something gentler.  G Since it could have been considerably less gentle without exceeding the B limits of applicability, you might count your blessings instead of complaining.   >  > Once again ... > D > Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a fewF > obstacles and some persistent naysayers have shown, once again, thatI > they can do whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)   H OK:  once was merely inane, but repetition after correction demonstratesK active incompetence - unless, of course, you can point out (with citations) J several individuals who have repeatedly opined that the VMS team would not= succeed in this endeavor (i.e., 'some persistent naysayers').    Clearer now?   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 11:51:33 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 316 Message-ID: <1030202114628.44437A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  $ On Sun, 2 Feb 2003, Bill Todd wrote:   > > > "Mark Daniel" <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> wrote in message( > news:3e3c6c2c_1@news.chariot.net.au... > > Bill Todd wrote:; > > > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message 6 > > > news:b1go19$131crj$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de... > > > 2 > > >>In article <3e3b45cb_2@news.chariot.net.au>,7 > > >>Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes:  > > 8< snip 8<I > > >>>Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a few L > > >>>obstacles and many naysayers have shown, once again, that they can doB > > >>>whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!) > > >>>  > > >>K > > >>I don't think that there was anyone here who doubted that engineering L > > >>could make VMS boot and even run on IA64.  The naysayers just doubt it( > > >>is the path they should be taking. > > > I > > > Exactly.  Terry made the same inane comment to any publication that  > would M > > > publish him, and it was just as unfounded there.  I would like to think  > I'm N > > > about as persistent a 'naysayer' as exists, and while back when the boot > > 8< snip 8< > > ! > > I am not an industry analyst. D > > I have never profered any opinion (in this forum) on this issue.> > > In that context I do not think my remark deserved 'inane'. > N > I'm afraid that whether a comment qualifies as 'inane' is a function neitherI > of whether one is an industry analyst (though they may be more prone to I > utter such than the general population) nor of whether one has ventured # > previous comments on the subject.  >  > > Perhaps something gentler. > I > Since it could have been considerably less gentle without exceeding the D > limits of applicability, you might count your blessings instead of > complaining.  F Bill, why are you such a jerk?  (I could be considerably less gentle.)   > > Once again ... > > F > > Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a fewH > > obstacles and some persistent naysayers have shown, once again, thatK > > they can do whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)  > J > OK:  once was merely inane, but repetition after correction demonstratesM > active incompetence - unless, of course, you can point out (with citations) L > several individuals who have repeatedly opined that the VMS team would not? > succeed in this endeavor (i.e., 'some persistent naysayers').  >  > Clearer now? >  > - bill  6 It wasn't a correction.  It was an ad hominem attack.    --   John Santos    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:18:34 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 312 Message-ID: <n3ydnVDq965qz6CjXTWcog@metrocast.net>  - "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in message 0 news:1030202114628.44437A-100000@Ives.egh.com...& > On Sun, 2 Feb 2003, Bill Todd wrote:   ...   H > > I'm afraid that whether a comment qualifies as 'inane' is a function neither K > > of whether one is an industry analyst (though they may be more prone to K > > utter such than the general population) nor of whether one has ventured % > > previous comments on the subject.  > >   > > > Perhaps something gentler. > > K > > Since it could have been considerably less gentle without exceeding the F > > limits of applicability, you might count your blessings instead of > > complaining. > H > Bill, why are you such a jerk?  (I could be considerably less gentle.)  I And you seem to feel that your tone (dear me:  could it be ad hominem, as I you claim for me below?) is the appropriate one to take.  Pot/kettle, I'd K say - but nonetheless I think you'll find that I answered the question just  now in another post.   >  > > > Once again ... > > > H > > > Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a fewJ > > > obstacles and some persistent naysayers have shown, once again, thatH > > > they can do whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!) > > L > > OK:  once was merely inane, but repetition after correction demonstratesD > > active incompetence - unless, of course, you can point out (with
 citations)J > > several individuals who have repeatedly opined that the VMS team would not A > > succeed in this endeavor (i.e., 'some persistent naysayers').  > >  > > Clearer now? > > 
 > > - bill > 7 > It wasn't a correction.  It was an ad hominem attack.   G It correctly characterized the observation as inane, and explained why: J exactly what part of that either constitutes an ad hominem attack or fails to qualify as a correction?   F Perhaps your preconceptions just made it a bit difficult to read - but that's not my problem    - bill   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 15:05:58 +0000 (UTC)3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> 5 Subject: Re: Privileges in a shareable image question 0 Message-ID: <b1jc4l$6re$1@sparta.btinternet.com>   Hi,   L If worst comes to worst you could always opt for a server solution. That is,J you could either have a single server started at system startup that wouldK handle many Send From File requests or you could use $creprc in the context K of the user process to spawn a sub-process that would run an image that you G control that would do the SFFing. You would create mailboxes and assign L channels to them at EXEC mode via UWSSs so that no User mode code could sendL dodgy requests. (A not insubstantial amount of work! But perhaps the "right"
 thing to do?)   J In the mean-time you can certainly do the logical name translation and RMSC file access stuff from a UWSS. The SFF call could be a problem. The J documentation (and Stephen Hoffman) says that you should never call out toK another shareable from a UWSS. Having said that, go into INSTALL and pick a L couple of shareables that were installed /PROTECTed then do an analyze/imageL on them and just see how many other shareables they call out to. I'm lookingA at an Rdb one currently that calls out to decc$shr, secureshr and L secureshrp. So why shouldn't you be allowed to call your SFF routine you may? ask? I've yet to come across a comprehensive answer on that :-(   H I suppose the obvious answer is that the supplier of the SFF RTL has notI warranted that it will operate correctly at an inner mode and protect its I working-storage from dodgy pointers and user mode attacks? (And all other K shareables in the chain that it may invoke) Simply drop the /PROTECT on the G link if you're feeling brave and can vouch for the behaviour of *every* # shareable image that you will call.   L Anyway, either of the above has got to be better then dropping out of a UWSS with priv enabled. HTH   Cheers Richard Maher  ; JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ) news:3E3C34EE.F2F0124C@vl.videotron.ca...  > Richard Maher wrote:J > > start. (I personally think it would better in the Programming Concepts4 > > manual! Which btw is where UWSS stuff is now JF) >  > 	 > Thanks.  > J > > 1) Are you really saying that you want to turn on SYSPRV in a UWSS and leave 2 > > it on when you exit? (I certainly hope not!!!) > H > I need to translate logical names in a protected name table, requiring sysprv. : > I need sysprv to access a  protected configuration file.3 > I need to call SFF routines woith SYSPRV enabled.  > I > (SFF is the SEND FROM FILE facility that allows one to submit a file to  the B > SMTP server, I need to submit it with a From: different than the- > username/host, hence requiring privileges.)  >  > J > > *2) Why exactly can't you do what you want to do from *within* a UWSS? > J > Not sure yet. Will take the new manual and read that portion to see what the  > limitations are. > J > > . Are you a server handling many different clients/usernames or do you run % > > in the context of a user process?  > K > Context of the user process. It is a shareable image called from MAIL. My D > shareable image must then somehow enable SYSPRV to perform certain actions.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Feb 03 11:15:51 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)  Subject: Re: Rogues Gallery ) Message-ID: <I46DHv7$QZMp@elias.decus.ch>   V In article <01KRVNBCWAV000I35Q@SEMATECH.Org>, Drew Shelton <DREW@SEMATECH.Org> writes:N > On 30 Jan 2003 18:36:54 -0600, kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob > Kaplow) wrote: > K >>The picture of the job I always wanted was in the "PRO" handbook: The guy K >>lying on a lounge chair on his deck, overlooking the cape,  PRO under the 2 >>chair, dog at his feet. I *STILL* want that job. > J > Someone had a poster of that picture in his office where I worked at the' > time.  We all stared longingly at it.  >   G Visions like that persuaded me to buy a laptop last year. It was indeed G pleasant to work outside, but keeping the screen out of direct sunlight 5 _and_ getting an even tan is well nigh impossible :-)   H Nonetheless, a pleasant experience, far preferable to an air conditioned office.    --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Feb 2003 04:59:27 -0800 + From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)  Subject: Re: Rogues Galleryu= Message-ID: <bec993c8.0302020459.539baaf7@posting.google.com>   v kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) wrote in message news:<t0Q3I1Ry9KXn@eisner.encompasserve.org>...m > In article <bec993c8.0301311716.21109ef7@posting.google.com>, shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes:In > > bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<b1bd4t$121m66$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>...D > >> them for posterity??  Or were they all actually models in posedD > >> shots rather than the candid office photos they look like??  IsB > >> it possible some of our more famous (infamous?) group members0 > >> are actually pictured in these tomes??  :-) > > I > > What about those poor DEC employees who underwent amputations so thatwE > > they could appear in the 1975 _PDP-11 Computer Family_ book, only-I > > to spend the rest of their careers staring at the DECWriters, wishinguH > > they could still type?  Yet they still have smiles on their faces... > > 2 > >   http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/p17.jpg >  > Error 404!  < Looking at the web logs... you left out the last "g" in jpg.  H I'm going to try to find enough spare time to get the whole book scanned in soon.   Tim.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 16:58:13 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>m; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...jJ Message-ID: <F6c%9.200031$ej1.190031@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messagep7 news:d7791aa1.0302011840.1a150a39@posting.google.com...e8 > well, I guess you can put a square peg in a round hole5 > after all says Terry on the inquirer ... click herem > * > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7551    # Poor Terry. He just doesn't get it.r  D I don't think anyone here in c.o.v. doubted that OpenVMS EngineeringC could accomplish the task set before them. We merely questioned the  choice of platform.a   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Feb 03 12:07:51 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) % Subject: Re: VMS @25 CD now availablea) Message-ID: <o3KGjTx0oIW1@elias.decus.ch>a  c In article <3E3A96BD.5FB9A8E7@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:t! > Hm, what about www.heinz.com ??l > & > (They make the famous "HP Sauce"...)   Nice one, Jan-Erik.c  % However, www.heinz gives me this one:f  I "The Heinz.com Web site requires users to be Java enabled. If you are not J currently Java enabled, determine your browser, and then follow the simple
 steps below.",  ; Yeah, right. The site still appears to work fine without...h     > # > VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:e >> n >> h8 >> Are there any web sites associated with HP that work? --     -- d
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:10:55 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>Y Subject: Re: What makes newsgroups so much fun ... (was: HP Sets the Stage for   Alpha's i2 Message-ID: <sdmdnWZG68-xzKCjXTWcqg@metrocast.net>  A "Eric S. Harris" <eric_harris_76@mindspring.com> wrote in messagee( news:3E3D300D.56575581@mindspring.com...   ...   L > And I deliberately omitted the name of the name-caller from my message, so thatK > if someone were to see that "the shoe fits", they might pay attention andn be aA > bit more helpful in their responses.  Or at least a little less  belligerent. >i9 > Unlikely.  A$$holes don't seem to recognize themselves.n  K Then again, some act that way entirely deliberately.  You can include me inhE that number, whether or not it happened to be a post of mine you wereAH referring to:  I don't *enjoy* it, but sometimes it's necessary to get a* point across to the persistently clueless.  K That was certainly true on June 25, 2001, when the "don't worry - be happy" G Compaq contingent was in full song and an alarming percentage of c.o.v.eJ seemed to be willing to go along.  It has remained true to the degree thatL not all that much has changed since then:  Compaq *never* addressed *any* ofG the charges about broken commitments and the accompanying dishonesty ingE explanations, but simply toughed it out asserting that 'most everyonenI thought killing Alpha was just hunky-dorey, an attitude still advanced by  many of their cronies as well.  L When something happens that is truly unacceptable, in the sense that you digJ in your heels and fight it until the problem is resolved, and when most ofJ the world seems blissfully ignorant of the problem, then someone often hasI to get out in front and be unpleasantly confrontational.  This raises the K consciousness of that small percentage of the population who actually reacttL to content (once it has been forced into their awareness) even if they don'tL care for the form, and they then in turn help disperse the information amongH the wider population who can be swayed once some of their friends can beJ seen to be concerned.  Those of us who went through the '60s learned theseI lessons, and the current industrial and political climate turns out to ben1 one where they are becoming important once again.e  J Which is not to say that we don't look forward as much as anyone to a timeL when they can be safely put back on the shelf:  that, after all, is the real goal of the behavior.i   - bill   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.066 ************************