0 INFO-VAX	Mon, 03 Feb 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 68      Contents: Re: Andrew...Oh Andrew...  Re: Andrew...Oh Andrew...  Re: Andrew...Oh Andrew...  Re: Batch job log spec Re: Batch job log spec Calling CSWS_JAVA users. Re: Calling CSWS_JAVA users.$ Cobol to Oracle connectivity problem( RE: Cobol to Oracle connectivity problem Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia) Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King? - Re: Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King? - Re: Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King? - Re: Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King? - Re: Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King?  Re: DECnet WAN question.# Re: EV7 / EV8 intellectual property  Hedder full error  Re: Hedder full error  Re: Hedder full error  Re: Hedder full error  Re: Hedder full error  Re: Hedder full error O RE: How many Publications/Magazines has your software company /product been in? / Re: HP announces a new dawn for VMS on itanium! , Ken Farmer calls out the VMS National Guard! linking multi-threaded apps  Re: linking multi-threaded apps  Newbie @ OpenVMS Re: Newbie @ OpenVMS Re: Newbie @ OpenVMS Re: Newbie @ OpenVMS$ Newbie question on defining a symbol( Re: Newbie question on defining a symbol( Re: Newbie question on defining a symbol Re: Newbie with dumb questions Re: Newbie with dumb questions Re: Newbie with dumb questions- Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - RE: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - RE: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - RE: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 A Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel A Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel A Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel P Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha RetaP RE: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha RetaP Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha RetaP Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha RetaP RE: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha RetaP Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha Reta2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 RE: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...5 URGENT: Intermittent response to display login prompt  Very large disks on VMS  Re: Very large disks on VMS  Re: VMS @25 CD now available Re: VMS @25 CD now available Re: VMS @25 CD now available Re: VMS on Itanium Re: VMS on Itanium Re: VMS on Itanium Re: VMS on Itanium Re: VMS on Itanium Re: VMS on Itanium RE: VMS on Itanium Re: VMS on Itanium RE: VMS on Itanium - bugcheck? Re: VMS source listings ? 0 [Q] AUTOGEN error in VMS 7.3 - is this just me ?4 Re: [Q] AUTOGEN error in VMS 7.3 - is this just me ?4 Re: [Q] AUTOGEN error in VMS 7.3 - is this just me ?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 12:46:12 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy " Subject: Re: Andrew...Oh Andrew.... Message-ID: <3E3E6494.1080802@nospamn.sun.com>   John Smith wrote: 4 > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,840809,00.asp >  > January 22, 2003% > Solaris Flaw Opens Door for Hackers  > .... > E > There is a serious vulnerability in several versions of the popular G > Solaris operating system that enables a remote attacker to access any : > file and obtain root privileges on a vulnerable machine.G > The flaw affects Sun Microsystems Inc.'s Solaris 2.5.1, 2.6, 7, 8 and 8 > 9 running on Sparc-based or Intel Corp.-based servers. > G > The vulnerability lies in a library service daemon known as the Kodak = > Color Management System. KCMS is a framework for developing E > color-management systems. The KCMS server is used to enable library G > functions to access profiles on remote machines. However, thanks to a E > directory traversal condition in one of the server's procedures, an < > attacker could retrieve any file on the vulnerable system. > D > Specifically, the KCS_OPEN_PROFILE procedure is vulnerable to thisD > attack, according to an advisory on the flaw released Wednesday byE > Entercept Security Technologies, the San Jose, Calif., company that G > discovered the problem. The CERT Coordination Center plans to release 1 > a vulnerability note on the issue on Wednesday.  > G > Because the KCMS server runs with root privileges, an attacker who is G > able to exploit this vulnerability would have complete control of the . > machine and could access any file of choice. >   6 Any security bugs are regretable and need to be fixed.  8 However there have not apparently been any KCMS security4 exploits. It can be easily turned off and it is only+ applicable as a package to desktops anyway.   5 On the otherhand you cannot turn the OpenVMS IP stack 5 off assuming you want to use IP and we all know about  the holes in the IP stack.   > H > BTW...Nice to have you back...it was so quiet without you for so long, > except for Bob C. ;-)  >    I was on paternity leave.        >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 16:28:35 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>" Subject: Re: Andrew...Oh Andrew...0 Message-ID: <3E3E9748.4D0D3817@blueyonder.co.uk>   rmk@rmkhome.com wrote: > $ > John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote: > I > > The vulnerability lies in a library service daemon known as the Kodak ? > > Color Management System. KCMS is a framework for developing G > > color-management systems. The KCMS server is used to enable library I > > functions to access profiles on remote machines. However, thanks to a G > > directory traversal condition in one of the server's procedures, an > > > attacker could retrieve any file on the vulnerable system. > J > What I do when I set up a UNIX system, and I'm sure that other competentH > admins do the same, is go through the inetd.conf file and shut off all3 > unneeded services. That would include Kodak crap.  > --  J you sound like a real professional. Unfortunately it seems the IT industry2 is intent on expunging such people from its ranks.      --   tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk    H * PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:14:58 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> " Subject: Re: Andrew...Oh Andrew...I Message-ID: <Cky%9.253218$pDv.49357@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   # "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" 8 <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message( news:3E3E6494.1080802@nospamn.sun.com... >  >  > John Smith wrote: 6 > > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,840809,00.asp > >  > > January 22, 2003' > > Solaris Flaw Opens Door for Hackers  > > .... > > ? > > There is a serious vulnerability in several versions of the  popular E > > Solaris operating system that enables a remote attacker to access  any < > > file and obtain root privileges on a vulnerable machine.E > > The flaw affects Sun Microsystems Inc.'s Solaris 2.5.1, 2.6, 7, 8  and : > > 9 running on Sparc-based or Intel Corp.-based servers. > > C > > The vulnerability lies in a library service daemon known as the  Kodak ? > > Color Management System. KCMS is a framework for developing ? > > color-management systems. The KCMS server is used to enable  library D > > functions to access profiles on remote machines. However, thanks to aD > > directory traversal condition in one of the server's procedures, an> > > attacker could retrieve any file on the vulnerable system. > > F > > Specifically, the KCS_OPEN_PROFILE procedure is vulnerable to thisF > > attack, according to an advisory on the flaw released Wednesday byB > > Entercept Security Technologies, the San Jose, Calif., company thatA > > discovered the problem. The CERT Coordination Center plans to  release 3 > > a vulnerability note on the issue on Wednesday.  > > F > > Because the KCMS server runs with root privileges, an attacker who isE > > able to exploit this vulnerability would have complete control of  the 0 > > machine and could access any file of choice. > >  > 8 > Any security bugs are regretable and need to be fixed. > : > However there have not apparently been any KCMS security6 > exploits. It can be easily turned off and it is only- > applicable as a package to desktops anyway.  > 7 > On the otherhand you cannot turn the OpenVMS IP stack 7 > off assuming you want to use IP and we all know about  > the holes in the IP stack. >  > > D > > BTW...Nice to have you back...it was so quiet without you for so long,  > > except for Bob C. ;-)  > >  >  > I was on paternity leave.     : Congrats.  Hope all are well. If you get a bit cranky fromE time-to-time, we'll all try to understand that you are suffering from  sleep deprivation.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 09:02:30 -0600  From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Batch job log spec 3 Message-ID: <EkQ6LE4o0WlW@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <1FEB200311465177@gerg.tamu.edu>, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:# > mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com writes... 6 > }In article <VXgvizKltEip@eisner.encompasserve.org>,< > }A simpler (DCL only) method might be to get the output ofA > }SHOW DEVICE/FILES SYS$LOGIN and SEARCH the output for your own ? > }PID and the string "jobname.LOG". You'd only want to do this < > }after you'd used the F$GETQUI calls to determine that the0 > }logfile wasn't specified on the command line. > }  > }--  > }- Jim >  > ; > This part is pretty easy to do. Here is one way to do it:  >  > FOO.COM =  >  > $ z= f$getjpi("","pid") - > $ Pipe Show Device/File/NoSys SYS$LOGIN | -  >     Search Sys$Pipe 'z' | -  >     @foo2.com  > $ sh log/job thisfile* >  > FOO2.COM = > 	 > $ i = 0  > $LOOPING: 2 > $ Read/End=ENDLOOP/Err=ENDLOOP Sys$Pipe thisproc. > $ thisfile = "[" + F$Element(1,"[",thisproc) > $ i = i+1 $ > $ Define/Job thisfile'i' &thisfile > $ GoTo LOOPING > $ENDLOOP:  > $ Exit  , There are a few problems with this approach.  H 1.  Performance.  You're going to be doing a lot of disk access in order@ to display all the file names of all the open files on the disk.  B 2.  Audit logs.  If you're running without privileges, you run theB risk of triggering a bunch of alarms as you try and fail to obtain6 the file access required to generate those file names.  9 3.  LOG file not on user's home disk.  You won't find it.   B 4.  LOG file not ending in .LOG.  You won't be able to distinguishB it from your command procedure or any other open file on the disk.  ? 5.  Directory alias.  The file name you get will be obtained by ? traversing the directory backlink chain.  The result may not be  a correct file specification.   D 6.  Unsupported interface.  You're parsing file names out of a humanE readable display.  Line wrap, truncation or any change in the display A format from one release to the next and you could wind up in deep  trouble.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 09:37:41 -0600  From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Batch job log spec 3 Message-ID: <7Hjx6Rr754WN@eisner.encompasserve.org>   C It has been brought to my attention that the copy of ppf.mar that I A posted in this thread was corrupt.  In particular, part of a line ( of code around the label 5$ was missing.  E Probably a data overrun during the cut and paste.  I used the include  function this time instead.   9 Apologies for the duplication and length of this message.    	John Briggs  @ ; PPF translate specified PPF logical name to file specification< ; This is based on code posted on comp.os.vms by John Briggs? ; on 19 Nov 1996, message-id <1996Nov19.110550@alpha.vitro.com> < ; Modified by Jon Pinkley to accept a logical name so we can3 ; get the actual file name of a file opened by DCL. : ; This also sets three local symbols, instead of only one. ; : ; First delete local symbols PHY_FILE_NAME, ORG_FILE_NAME,: ; and FID_FILE_NAME.   These will be recreated when we can ; successfully determine them. ;  ; PHY_FILE_NAME 9 ;   This is the unconcealed name of the file at the time  5 ;   it was opened.  If it has been renamed, this will  ;   not be correct.  ; $ ;   PHY_FILE_NAME is set as follows:: ;   If it's a PPF, then do a $DISPLAY with nop=<noconceal>' ;     and save the resulting file name. 9 ;     If it is a record oriented device, (you can't trust 8 ;     fab$l_dev for this, you must ask $getdvi), instead5 ;     of using the rsa returned by $display, use the   ;     nam$t_dvi value.3 ;     (this is the name it had when it was opened.) 5 ;     if the device is a terminal, then save only the 6 ;     device name.  Set FILE_NAME to the saved string.; ;   If it's not a PPF, exit with warning status CLI$_UNDFIL 2 ;   This is after all, meant to be used with PPF's ;  ; ORG_FILE_NAME 7 ;   This is the concealed name of the file at the time  5 ;   it was opened.  If it has been renamed, this will  ;   not be correct.  ; $ ;   ORG_FILE_NAME is set as follows:% ;   If it's a record oriented device  $ ;     set ORG_FILE_NAME to nam$l_dev ;   otherwise 0 ;     do another $DISPLAY, this time displaying ! ;     the concealed name, and set / ;     ORG_FILE_NAME to the concealed file name.  ; " ; FID_FILE_NAME is set as follows: ;   If nam$l_fid is non zero? ;     determine the current file name by using lib$fid_to_name. < ;     Set FID_FILE_NAME to this value.  Note that this file C ;     name will be correct if the file was renamed using the RENAME 9 ;     command (but not necessarily if the FID is entered   ;     multiple times). ;   ; Usage: $ ppf :== $some_dir:ppf ;        $ ppf [logical_name]  ; ? ;        if no logical is specified, then sys$output is assumed 1 ;        i.e. the following three are equivalent:  ;        $ ppf sys$output  ;        $ ppf: ;	 $ run some_dir:ppf ! foreign command not necessary here ; > ;        The reason the this is the default is that it is very? ;        useful to allow a batch process to determine the exact . ;        filename and version of its log file. ; > ;        PPF can also be used to determine the version of file) ;        opened by DCL.  Example follows: , ;        $ open/read foo sys$login:login.com ;	 $ ppf foo( ;        $ show symbol/local *_file_name@ ;          FID_FILE_NAME = "DISK$USER1:[USERS.JON]LOGIN.COM;181": ;          ORG_FILE_NAME = "ROOT$USERS:[JON]LOGIN.COM;181"A ;          PHY_FILE_NAME = "$4$DKA200:[USERS.][JON]LOGIN.COM;181"  ;        $ close/nolog foo ; 3 ;  example where file gets renamed while it is open  ; " ;        $ open/write foo test.dat ;        $ ppf foo# ;        $ sho sym /loc *_file_name > ;          FID_FILE_NAME = "DISK$JSCRATCH:[JON.PPF]TEST.DAT;1"> ;          ORG_FILE_NAME = "DISK$JSCRATCH:[JON.PPF]TEST.DAT;1": ;          PHY_FILE_NAME = "$4$DKC204:[JON.PPF]TEST.DAT;1"& ;        $ ren test.dat; jons.data;100 ;        $ ppf foo# ;        $ sho sym /loc *_file_name A ;          FID_FILE_NAME = "DISK$JSCRATCH:[JON.PPF]JONS.DATA;100" > ;          ORG_FILE_NAME = "DISK$JSCRATCH:[JON.PPF]TEST.DAT;1": ;          PHY_FILE_NAME = "$4$DKC204:[JON.PPF]TEST.DAT;1" ;        $ close/nolog foo   	.psect	data,quad,noexe  	$LNMDEF 	$FABDEF 	$NAMDEF 	$DEVDEF 	$DVIDEF 	$CLIMSGDEF   ( 	.macro	errchk, ?skip		; check for error& 	blbs	r0, skip		; on success skip this# 	pushl	r0			; push offending status , 	calls	#1, g^lib$stop		; and kill this thing) skip:	.endm	errchk			; and that's errchk!    fab:	$FAB	nam=nam  nam:	$NAM	rsa=buffer,- 		rss=buffer_size,-  		nop=<noconceal>   	 itemlist:  	.word	buffer_size 	.word	lnm$_string 	.address	buffer 	.address	file_name_desc 	.long	0   	.align quad buffer:	.blkb	255  buffer_size=.-buffer 	.align quad buffer1:	.blkb	255 buffer1_size=.-buffer1 	.align quad buffer2:	.blkb	16  buffer2_size=.-buffer2 	.align quad recdev:	.blkl	1  dvirec:	.long	DVI$_REC return_length: 	.blkw	1   sysout: .ascid  /SYS$OUTPUT/ tabnam:	.ascid	/LNM$FILE_DEV/ F phynam:	.ascid	/PHY_FILE_NAME/		; name file was originally opened with> orgnam: .ascid	/ORG_FILE_NAME/		; same as file_name, concealedD fidnam:	.ascid	/FID_FILE_NAME/		; name determined by lib$fid_to_name0 input:	.long	lnm$c_namlength		; make a descr for  	.address 2$			; lib$get_foreign. 2$:	.blkb	lnm$c_namlength		; the buffer itself   file_name_desc:  	.blkw	1 	.word	0 	.address buffer   fid_name_desc: 	.blkw	1 	.word	0 	.address buffer1    dvi_name_desc: 	.blkw	1 	.word	0 	.address buffer2    	.psect	code,exe 	.entry	MAIN,^m<>  	; Get logical file name of PPF 7 	pushal	input			; set the length to the length returned  	pushl	#0			; noprompt+ 	pushal	input			; write the rec'd data here , 	calls	#3, g^lib$get_foreign	; get a command 	errchk				; check for error  . 	cmpw	input, #0		; no input logical specified? 	bneq	5$7 	movc3	sysout,@sysout+4,@input+4 ; input = "SYS$OUTPUT"  	movw	sysout,input 5$: 9 	; Delete the symbols we are going to set (ignore errors) " 	pushaq	fidnam			; "FID_FILE_NAME" 	calls	#1,g^lib$delete_symbol " 	pushaq	orgnam			; "ORG_FILE_NAME" 	calls	#1,g^lib$delete_symbol " 	pushaq	phynam			; "PHY_FILE_NAME" 	calls	#1,g^lib$delete_symbol   3 	; Translate specified logical name in LNM$FILE_DEV  	pushal	itemlist	 	pushl	#0 
 	pushaq	input  	pushaq	tabnam	 	pushl	#0  	calls	#5,g^sys$trnlnm 	blbs	r0,10$ 	brw	99$			; error? bail   	; Is it a PPF logical name?( 10$:	cmpw	buffer,#^X001b		; Escape, null	 	beql	11$ " 	brw	101$			; it's not a PPF, quit 11$:$ 	; Use $DISPLAY to get PPF file name 	movw	buffer+2,fab+fab$w_ifi# 	bisw2	#fab$m_ppf_ind,fab+fab$w_ifi 2 	$display	fab=fab		; first with non-concealed name 	errchk				; check for error  2 	; Determine if device is a record oriented deviceF 	; Note that network devices like node"user pass"::sys$login:login.com@ 	; will have nam$t_dvi set to a null string.  In this case, just> 	; treat it like a non-record oriented device.  We will handle% 	; the lack of a FID at a later time.   3 	; copy the nam$t_dvi name into the dvi_name string  	 # 	movzbw	nam+nam$t_dvi,dvi_name_desc 	 	bneq	12$ ) 	brw	20$			; must be a decnet device name  12$:5 	movc3	dvi_name_desc,nam+nam$t_dvi+1,@dvi_name_desc+4  	 5 	pushal	recdev			; boolean for record oriented device $ 	pushaq	dvi_name_desc		; device name# 	pushl	#0			; channel not specified . 	pushal	dvirec			; address containing DVI$_REC 	calls	#4,g^lib$getdvi 	errchk   * 	tstl	recdev			; if record oriented device% 	beql	20$			; then skip the following   8 	; here we have a record oriented device.  Directory and/ 	; file names really don't make a lot of sense. % 	; set PHY_FILE_NAME to nam$t_dvi and ! 	;     ORG_FILE_NAME to nam$l_dev   	; leave FID_FILE_NAME undefined   	pushaq	dvi_name_desc  	pushaq	phynam 	calls	#2,g^lib$set_symbol 	errchk   4 	; copy the nam$l_dev name into the file_name string$ 	movzbw	nam+nam$b_dev,file_name_desc6 	movc3	file_name_desc,@nam+nam$l_dev,@file_name_desc+4   	pushaq	file_name_desc 	pushaq	orgnam 	calls	#2,g^lib$set_symbol 	errchk   	 	brw	99$	   ) 	; Stuff file name length into descriptor ( 20$:	movzbw	nam+nam$b_rsl,file_name_desc  0 	; The file name is all set up in file_name_desc/ 	; Stuff it into the DCL symbol 'PHY_FILE_NAME'  30$:	pushaq	file_name_desc 	pushaq	phynam 	calls	#2,g^lib$set_symbol 	errchk   . 	; Use $DISPLAY to get PPF file name concealed( 	bicb2	#<nam$m_noconceal>, nam+nam$b_nop 	$display	fab=fab  	blbs	r0,40$ 	ret				; If it fails, exit   ) 	; Stuff file name length into descriptor ( 40$:	movzbw	nam+nam$b_rsl,file_name_desc  0 	; The file name is all set up in file_name_desc/ 	; Stuff it into the DCL symbol 'ORG_FILE_NAME'  	pushaq	file_name_desc 	pushaq	orgnam 	calls	#2,g^lib$set_symbol 	errchk   2 	; Now grab the FID from the NAM block and convert/ 	; it to a filename using LIB$FID_TO_NAME, then / 	; stuff it into the DCL symbol 'FID_FILE_NAME'  	 1 	; we're going to use buffer1, set the length in    	; the descriptor to buffer_size6 	movab	buffer1,fid_name_desc+4		; make sure we have it$ 	movzbw	#buffer1_size, fid_name_desc/ 	; we are going to reuse the descriptor for the  	; nam$t_dvi counted string % 	movzbw	nam+nam$t_dvi, file_name_desc  	beql	99$				; no FID, bail out ) 	movab	nam+nam$t_dvi+1, file_name_desc+4	    	pushaw	return_length  	pushaq	fid_name_desc  	pushaw	nam+nam$w_fid  	pushaq	file_name_desc 	calls	#4,g^lib$fid_to_name  	errchk   ) 	; Stuff file name length into descriptor ' 60$:	movzbw	return_length,fid_name_desc   0 	; The file name is all set up in file_name_desc/ 	; Stuff it into the DCL symbol 'FID_FILE_NAME'  70$:	pushaq	fid_name_desc  	pushaq	fidnam 	calls	#2,g^lib$set_symbol 99$:	ret 101$:	movl	#CLI$_UNDFIL,r0 	brb	99$  
 	.end	main   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:59:10 -0000( From: "Andoni" <andoni@REMOVE.indigo.ie>! Subject: Calling CSWS_JAVA users. * Message-ID: <b1lpkk$a49$1@kermit.esat.net>   Hello.  J I am using CSWS_JAVA 2.0 for OpenVMS (Tomcat 4.0.4 ported to VMS) are you?  H I am having problems with my web applications crashing on VMS where theyJ didn't on Linux/Windows.  I have ruled out most coding bugs but I am still open to any/all ideas.  G I have also used version 1.0 of CSWS_JAVA and the same problem happened  there.   Andoni.   J PS: I would really like to develop some contacts in this area generally soL that we may bounce things off of one another as there is not much use of VMS' it in the standard Tomcat mailing list.    Andoni.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:47:21 +0100 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>% Subject: Re: Calling CSWS_JAVA users. ) Message-ID: <3E3EAB29.7030700@vajhoej.dk>   
 Andoni wrote: L > I am using CSWS_JAVA 2.0 for OpenVMS (Tomcat 4.0.4 ported to VMS) are you? > J > I am having problems with my web applications crashing on VMS where theyL > didn't on Linux/Windows.  I have ruled out most coding bugs but I am still > open to any/all ideas. > I > I have also used version 1.0 of CSWS_JAVA and the same problem happened  > there.  L > PS: I would really like to develop some contacts in this area generally soN > that we may bounce things off of one another as there is not much use of VMS) > it in the standard Tomcat mailing list.   ) I have created a VMS Java mail-list, see: &    http://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/vmsjava/ for VMS specific Java stuff.  = Either subscribe and post a detailed question there - or post  some details here.   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Feb 2003 23:10:04 -0800 & From: dl1435@indiatimes.com (Raj Nair)- Subject: Cobol to Oracle connectivity problem = Message-ID: <f19d57d5.0302022310.22d11968@posting.google.com>    Hi All, D   I would like to have my COBOL app. on VAX/VMS talk to my oracle 9iC database on linux. Oracle doesn't support 9i on Vax and therefore I B can't use Pro*Cobol as the bridge, so I guess I'll have to write a	 driver to ( do this. Any other possibilities/ideas ?   Thanks Raj    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:21:58 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> 1 Subject: RE: Cobol to Oracle connectivity problem T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660D12@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Raj,  
 Check out:0 http://www.attunity.com/products/DataConnect.htmB http://www.attunity.com/WinConnect3400/docs/am34.pdf (lists VAX as supported for some versions)   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)  OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM      -----Original Message-----0 From: Raj Nair [mailto:dl1435@indiatimes.com]=20 Sent: February 3, 2003 2:10 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com - Subject: Cobol to Oracle connectivity problem      Hi All, D   I would like to have my COBOL app. on VAX/VMS talk to my oracle 9iC database on linux. Oracle doesn't support 9i on Vax and therefore I B can't use Pro*Cobol as the bridge, so I guess I'll have to write a2 driver to do this. Any other possibilities/ideas ?   Thanks Raj    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:59:14 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Columbia 2 Message-ID: <WM-cndhbm9cS96CjXTWcqA@metrocast.net>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageD news:jcb%9.199710$ej1.153846@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...   ...   H > A lot of this denial of the details is due to never ending emphasis onE > cutting costs, without necessarily looking at the potential effects F > those cutbacks have. And this holds true for NASA as much as it doesE > across corporate America, public and private healthcare, and indeed G > beyond that to government and corporations worldwide to one extent or 
 > another.  C That misses the point that perhaps I failed to make clear.  Limited A resources are a fact of life, but presenting the facade to people J potentially vulnerable to such limitations that they don't exist ("We knowI what we're doing - just keep out of our way") is what's irresponsible and ; unprofessional, regardless of what the level of funding is.   G My experience is that hospital personnel on average do not particularly F welcome (and all to often simply ignore) input from patients and theirL families about the patient's condition:  communication really sucks, both inG that respect and even between, say, doctors and nurses, in part because H they're all so concerned with protecting their own sense of the central,L critical nature of their personal role in the process that they fail to liveJ up to the *shared* responsibilities of that role.  There are at least someI similarities between such an attitude and that which obtained both around G the Challenger accident and during the subsequent investigation - until # Feynman (an outsider) blew it away.   F Ego is like cholesterol:  there are both good and bad kinds.  If beingE professional is supposed to leverage the former while weeding out the D latter, then a great many people who wear that label don't merit it.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Feb 2003 16:00:59 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Columbia 3 Message-ID: <Maik0JedttQA@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <-OqdnY4Mput5ZaGjXTWcoA@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:    > (e.g., so that they J > could have bunkered down in the space station if they looked bad until a > rescue could be arranged)   F    The orbit of the Columbia would not allow it to divert to the spaceG    station if the problem had been known.  It takes almost as much fuel A    for that kind of orbit change as it did to get off the ground.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 23:55:20 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>  Subject: Re: Columbia & Message-ID: <3E3DA1D8.2B96DAE@aaa.com>  < Well, I don't know, but there must be something here I don't understand.   @ 7 people got killed in the first shuttle accident in *17 years*.0 That is of course terrible for those 7 families.  = Now, 40.000 people get killed in car accidents *each year* in  the US.   @ When did the US President hold a specific TV speach about that ?   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 06:06:24 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Columbia 2 Message-ID: <XdqcnQuLCoKm0KOjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>  3 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message ! news:3E3E1420.354FB9AA@aaa.com...  > ???  > 8 > Of course you can not just slow down and turn 180 deg.? > The moment you start *slowing* down, you also start *falling* - > down, which wasn't what you wanted, right ?  > I > The gravity force at orbit high isn't much lower then on earth surface.  > E > So you'd have to do a full 180 deg turn while keeping the speed up. 
 > Not easy...   K It's actually trivial:  you just continually thrust at right-angles to your I current velocity until you've gotten turned around (and time it such that F you return to the same orbital plane).  But whether this consumes moreK energy than that required to decelerate/accelerate is a different question.    - bill   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 12:31:18 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>  Subject: Re: Columbia ; Message-ID: <01KS022RET5U8WW5NX@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   D > I'm very affected by the Columbia crew tragedy, 17 years after theJ > Challenger accident. It is sad, for them and for their families, and for" > the whole scientific community.   B No offense, but this has NOTHING to do with VMS (even if some NASA? software runs on VMS somewhere).  Please don't start completely H off-topic threads.  Some threads are at least a bit on-topic, some driftC off topic with time, some are completely off-topic but more or less H "one-liners" which won't produce any followups.  We can live with this, ( but not with completely off-topic stuff.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 07:34:27 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Columbia 3 Message-ID: <iLhXua5Ne2IJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <QrOdnWwL_L-WTaCjXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > I > I was just trying to get to a more realistic approximation to determine M > whether carrying sufficient extra fuel for that kind of velocity change was K > at all feasible.  But without knowing what percentage of take-off fuel is J > devoted to other than delta-v use (my guess is a rather high percentage,L > just from the vague recollection that the entire Saturn V first stage onlyE > got the beast up to 1000 mph or so), that may not be possible here.   G    We could go off and work out both the orbital mechanics and the fuel D    load equation, but I thinks it's sufficient to know that the fuelD    load grows geometrically, that's why it took a Saturn V to get to6    the moon with enough fuel to get back off the moon.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 07:40:14 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Columbia 3 Message-ID: <j80Y6PhQtTYF@eisner.encompasserve.org>   p In article <eDl%9.204876$ej1.115884@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > A > I suppose NASA could park an orbiting 'tanker' in LEO where the A > shuttle could get to it, using a Titan or other similar totally G > expendable booster. The 'tanker' could use the on-board fuel for botho= > emergency mid-flight refueling as well as altitude/attitude @ > adjustments for the tanker itself. Of course the shuttle isn't0 > equipped for drogue/probe in-flight refueling.  G    The shuttle itself has extreemly small fuel tanks.  The main enginespH    can only be fed from the external tank which is dropped after ascent.  F    The manuevering engines can make some interesting orbit adjustmentsF    and still have enough fuel left to bring the whole thing back down,    but no real orbit changes.o  I    Order of magnitude, they'd have to get something about as large as thetH    external tank up to orbit without using the fuel inside it.  I don't C    think a Titan can lift that.  I don't think even the big Russiant!    Proton booster can lift that. e  H    I do think carrying along a manned manuevering unit and a tile repair?    kit at the cost of less payload is a workable consideration.e   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 07:43:01 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o Subject: Re: Columbiao3 Message-ID: <pJbMbyGK5d5K@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  o In article <3E3DEDA3.1194B8D1@b9rvnospamcompsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfineb9rv@b9rvnospamcompsys.to> writes:a > E > There are a number of other methods that allow an orbit change thatbC > probably take far less delta-v.  One method that substitutes timeoJ > is to first change from an almost circular orbit to an elliptical orbit.  H    Changing the size and shape of the orbit is much easier than changing    the inclination.   G    To date all spacecraft making major changes in inclination have doneJG    it via de-orbit and re-launch.  There are now only three spacecraft      having this capability.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 08:02:56 +0100i9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>y Subject: Re: Columbiao' Message-ID: <3E3E1420.354FB9AA@aaa.com>n   ???t  6 Of course you can not just slow down and turn 180 deg.= The moment you start *slowing* down, you also start *falling*n+ down, which wasn't what you wanted, right ?J  G The gravity force at orbit high isn't much lower then on earth surface.n  C So you'd have to do a full 180 deg turn while keeping the speed up.3 Not easy...M   Jan-Erik Sderholm.r     Bill Todd wrote: > J > That's somewhat counter-intuitive.  For example, it should take far lessL > than twice as much fuel as it takes to get to orbit to reverse the orbit aD > full 180 degrees, since you're already up there (no gravity or airN > resistance to fight during the initial - extremely fuel-expensive - velocityH > build-up), so all you need is what's required for the velocity change.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 02:00:38 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Columbia 2 Message-ID: <CLmdnYMjd8g-jqOjXTWcpg@metrocast.net>  C "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfineb9rv@b9rvnospamcompsys.to> wrote in message . news:3E3DEDA3.1194B8D1@b9rvnospamcompsys.to... > >Bill Todd wrote:e >rI > > >    "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in  messagenL > > >    The orbit of the Columbia would not allow it to divert to the spaceH > > >    station if the problem had been known.  It takes almost as much fuelG > > >    for that kind of orbit change as it did to get off the ground.nL > > That's somewhat counter-intuitive.  For example, it should take far lessL > > than twice as much fuel as it takes to get to orbit to reverse the orbit a F > > full 180 degrees, since you're already up there (no gravity or airG > > resistance to fight during the initial - extremely fuel-expensive -n velocityJ > > build-up), so all you need is what's required for the velocity change. >, > Jerome Fine replies: > D > Perigee - closest distance from the center of the earth during the7 >               orbit, also the velocity is the highest,D > Apogee - furthest distance from the center of the earth during the6 >               orbit, also the velocity is the lowest > Delta-v   velocity change, >yE > There are a number of other methods that allow an orbit change that.C > probably take far less delta-v.  One method that substitutes timemJ > is to first change from an almost circular orbit to an elliptical orbit. >rH > I can't remember my orbital mechanics very well since it has been overI > 40 years, but I suspect that a relatively small increase in velocity ateF > perigee will cause an out-of-proportion change from a circular orbitG > to an elliptical orbit.  Although the new orbit would take many timescK > longer than the 90 minutes for low earth circular orbits, the velocity ateH > apogee would also be many time less.  Assuming that the shuttle itselfI > was not in any immediate danger (except from reentry), a very elongated-G > orbit with a much lower velocity at apogee would allow the shuttle to0L > change orbit with a rather small delta-v when the shuttle is at the apogee1 > as compared with the delta-v needed at perigee.   L A simple thought experiment appears to confirm the savings but suggests that2 they may only be significant rather than dramatic:  K IIRC LEO speed is about 18K mph, while escape speed is about 25K mph.  So ahK delta-v of 7K mph at LEO should create an elliptical orbit with an infinitesK apogee, which when reached (after an infinite amount of time) would requirewI zero additional delta-v to change to any desired inclination.  Another 7K L mph delta-v on return to perigee, and you're done (after, of course, another infinite wait).   G So instead of a worst-case 36K mph delta-v for a 180 degree inclinationfL change, it's reduced to a constant 14K mph delta-v for *any* change:  a goodK deal (absent the long wait) for a major change, but not so good for a minortJ one.  The next questions are whether for a 180 degree change an even lowerD minimum exists at some intermediate orbital eccentricity (using lessF eccentricity-changing delta-v but more inclination-changing delta-v atJ apogee), and whether the same is true for minor inclination changes (sinceL at the other extreme - zero inclination change - the minimum delta-v of zeroB clearly doesn't involve changing the orbit's eccentricity at all).  J This is, of course, getting rather far afield from c.o.v.  But the subject+ heading should have made that fairly clear.b   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 14:26:24 GMT ( From: "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> Subject: Re: Columbiar. Message-ID: <k_u%9.150419$rM2.62541@rwcrnsc53>  I This has been the most interesting OT discussion I've seen here in a longf time.t   -- Mark E. Levy" System Management Associates, Inc. Phone: 847-730-3193u Fax:      847-730-3194 Cell:      847-370-3071y Text:     melevy@vtext.com oro              melevy@skytel.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 15:03:56 GMTo# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: ColumbiayJ Message-ID: <wxv%9.210079$ej1.191358@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  @ "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in5 message news:j80Y6PhQtTYF@eisner.encompasserve.org...3 > In articleE <eDl%9.204876$ej1.115884@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "Johno Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:r > >tC > > I suppose NASA could park an orbiting 'tanker' in LEO where theaC > > shuttle could get to it, using a Titan or other similar totallyeD > > expendable booster. The 'tanker' could use the on-board fuel for both? > > emergency mid-flight refueling as well as altitude/attitudetB > > adjustments for the tanker itself. Of course the shuttle isn't2 > > equipped for drogue/probe in-flight refueling. >eA >    The shuttle itself has extreemly small fuel tanks.  The maino engineseB >    can only be fed from the external tank which is dropped after ascent.l > < >    The manuevering engines can make some interesting orbit adjustmentsaB >    and still have enough fuel left to bring the whole thing back down,p >    but no real orbit changes.. > D >    Order of magnitude, they'd have to get something about as large as theC >    external tank up to orbit without using the fuel inside it.  I- don't E >    think a Titan can lift that.  I don't think even the big Russianm" >    Proton booster can lift that. > C >    I do think carrying along a manned manuevering unit and a tilec repairA >    kit at the cost of less payload is a workable consideration.n    D So they park one or two of these in LEO - two 'stations' launched onF one expendable booster. Each station (maybe the size of a small/mediumE size garden shed excluding the maneuvering engines/fuel load) carriesaD a large load of maneuvering fuel so the repair station can travel toD the shuttle rather than the shuttle having to use its fuel to get to? the repair station. Russians have lots of experience with theiri/ unmanned ISS supply flights for remote docking.f  C I suppose the repair station could carry a bunch of space suits andnB maneuvering thruster packs, tools, extra food, tiles, etc... MaybeB these things only have a life span of 2 years in orbit. They couldE crank a bunch out and launch a pair every 18 months or so, only thingoA they'd have pack just before launch is 'fresh' MRE's (if there is , indeed such a thing), oxygen, and batteries.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 08:37:48 -0700h+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>d Subject: Re: Columbiah' Message-ID: <3E3E8CCC.1090300@MMaz.com>l   Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote:u  = >Well, I don't know, but there must be something here I don't  >understand. > A >7 people got killed in the first shuttle accident in *17 years*.l1 >That is of course terrible for those 7 families.  >T> >Now, 40.000 people get killed in car accidents *each year* in >the US. >uA >When did the US President hold a specific TV speach about that ?p > =20e >aH Any loss of life is unfortunate; The real shame is the amount of time=20G the space program will be put on hold, or worse, by space nay-sayers=20 H that will use this accident as a tool to damage or reduce the size of=20J the space program.  Politics, and how this will be used to spin agendas=20K in the US Senate and House for power, that is the real shame...  People,=20nH including my own wife, loose site if the innovations and technologies=20I that have spawned because of the space race that JFK initiated and has=20  since evolved...   Barry.   --=20a  B Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO=20  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 07:40:31 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: Columbia = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302030740.5acc39a3@posting.google.com>0  o cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius) wrote in message news:<9eMZbWLEBPPK@eisner.encompasserve.org>...rG > In article <3E3DEDA3.1194B8D1@b9rvnospamcompsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine"d+ > <jhfineb9rv@b9rvnospamcompsys.to> writes:iQ > > Your assumptions are based on remaining in a low earth almost circular orbit.l > > Q > > And while I can't remember the delta-v required to elongate the orbit, I tendAR > > to remember it as a appropriate method.  The key point is that if the velocityP > > at apogee is only 5% of the velocity at perigee, then an orbit change can beR > > done with very little delta-v.  But the offset is that there is a delta-v costR > > to making the orbit elongated and a time cost to wait until apogee is reached. > J > I thought about that as well and almost included it in my post about theG > impulse required for an orbital change but wasn't sure it would work,CG > especially since I initially only thought of effecting the change viaPG > a downward thrust to force the path down towards earth and thus raise E > it at some later point in the orbit.  Making the change by applying J > forward thrust may work better - after all, applying force perpendicularG > to the motion vector adds no net orbital energy but instead puts 100%tJ > of its energy into making gas molecules fly at high speed through space.  F A downward thrust would be a bad idea. You'd probably gain very littleF altitude, and since you'd be higher at the same tangential speed you'd? reduce your perigee and probably cause a permature reentry. Notu recommended.  F Moving around in space requires careful planning, calculation, and, of? course, timing. It's not like in Star Wars where the spacecraft.@ somehow make bank turns in vacuum as if they were fyling regularF airplanes in a regular atmosphere. There's no air to "push against" in? space. Such maneuvers would require so much energy it's totallye ridiculous.   C Now, imagine being in a craft on ice with a resulting total lack ofhB friction. The only way, then, to get around is to throw things offB your craft and thus move from the recoil (cannon balls would serveF well, as would a cannon). And you have no brakes. The only way to slow@ down is to throw or shoot cannon balls in the forward direction.@ Imagine trying to get around like that and having to have enoughC cannon balls on hand before "launch". And the more cannon balls youpE start out with, the more cannon balls you need just to get going! Nows> just add gravity and a planet to revolve around, including theF atmosphere as an obstacle to returning home (and all the other dangers9 I mention below) and you've pretty much got space travel.P  B AFAIK, all delta-v's are done thrusting in the forward or backward; direction which I think is the most efficient way to do it.   G > As far as making the correction at apogee, I worried about being able H > to get the full burn in during the apogee time, but I guess it doesn'tI > matter - just use successive apogees until you get it done.  And apogeel@ > lasts longer than perigee anyway because you're moving slower. >  > George  E A big concern would be the timing. You'd have to get to the station'siD orbit at a point in space and time where the station actually is andC then perform another delta-v. Or you need to get into a close orbits? (not the same orbit!) and very slowly nudge your way toward it.l  C I think it would still require too much fuel to be practical. Also, E one would need to investigate radiation dangers that might be presentvC at higher altitudes. (Well, on second thought, since we went to theiF moon, maybe those dangers are not that great. But maybe the spacecraftA that went to the moon had better shielding. I really don't know.)e  F Space travel is extremely dangerous, difficult, and expensive. HazardsA abound. Radiation, vacuum, space junk, the need for complete lifeeD support, orbital speed of approx. 18000 miles per hour (5 mi./sec.),F space junk in orbit, meteoroids, the dangers of launch, the dangers ofF reentry, the chances of explosions (remember Appolo 13), .... It is toA NASA's credit that there haven't been even more disasters. And weoB still don't know the cause of this disaster. Maybe the shuttle ranB into a piece of space junk. Maybe it was the foam that fell off atF launch time. Maybe not. Maybe something entirely else. We'll just have2 to wait and see and hope the puzzle can be solved.   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 09:55:35 -0600a; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)f Subject: Re: Columbiae3 Message-ID: <OPQ9bHd+qWO6@eisner.encompasserve.org>   p In article <wxv%9.210079$ej1.191358@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > F > So they park one or two of these in LEO - two 'stations' launched onH > one expendable booster. Each station (maybe the size of a small/mediumG > size garden shed excluding the maneuvering engines/fuel load) carries F > a large load of maneuvering fuel so the repair station can travel toF > the shuttle rather than the shuttle having to use its fuel to get toA > the repair station. Russians have lots of experience with theirg1 > unmanned ISS supply flights for remote docking.i  C    So it takes a great many of our largest boosters to build one of D    these, not two stations per one booster.  Fuel is heavy.  LiftingA    fuel takes fuel, and the growth is geometric.  You end up with[F    almost the entire lifting capability of the US dedicated to puttingC    such stations into orbit and then replacing them every couple ofN	    years.   +    Doable?  Yes.   Practical solution?  No.e      e   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 08:36:49 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: ColumbiaD= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302030836.69b6c2b3@posting.google.com>G  v "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:<0Mh%9.538943$F2h1.144049@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...5 > "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message " > news:3E3DA1D8.2B96DAE@aaa.com...@ > > Well, I don't know, but there must be something here I don't > > understand.A > >"D > > 7 people got killed in the first shuttle accident in *17 years*.4 > > That is of course terrible for those 7 families. > >sA > > Now, 40.000 people get killed in car accidents *each year* inD > > the US.E > > D > > When did the US President hold a specific TV speach about that ?  A Well, millions of people travel millions of miles to create thoseoB fatalities. By contrast, there are only a very few people who haveC gone into space. If 1 out of every 100 automobile trips resulted in 2 seven fatalities, you'd hear quite a lot about it!  > > Have not done the math yet, but I'd guess that computed on aH > fatalities per million miles traveled basis, space flight looks pretty > good.u  D I don't see how a fatalitites per million miles traveled is relevantE here. You've only really traveled about 100 miles away (rough guess).nB Going in circles isn't really going anywhere. And that's where theF "millions of miles" come from. From another point of view: Think aboutC what great mileage you're getting once you're in orbit. It takes noaD fuel to *stay* in orbit if you are high enough above the atmosphere.C An occasional push may be needed otherwise, but what great mileage!sB But that great mileage doesn't really mean much in the traditional@ sense. So you can't compare it with mileage obtained by cars and planes.f  C Comparing this statistic makes more sense in cases like driving vs.eF flying. Your costs vary but your benefit is the same: you travel *to a' place* that is a certain distance away.o  6 > On the other hand, if calculated on a fatalities perG > launch/landing basis, it doesn't look so good. But that's what pilotsrG > everywhere know - takeoffs, and particularly landings, are always thee# > most dangerous aspects of flight.o  F True, except I heard on radio and TV that astronauts fear takeoff much= more than they do reentry and landing. But in any case, it isa' important to ask a meaningful question.	   [...];   Dislcaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmane   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:07:56 GMTm# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>M Subject: Re: ColumbiaeJ Message-ID: <0ey%9.253171$pDv.222280@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  ; "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message 7 news:b096a4ee.0302030836.69b6c2b3@posting.google.com...r0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageF news:<0Mh%9.538943$F2h1.144049@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>.. .u7 > > "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in messagef$ > > news:3E3DA1D8.2B96DAE@aaa.com...B > > > Well, I don't know, but there must be something here I don't > > > understand.e > > >eF > > > 7 people got killed in the first shuttle accident in *17 years*.6 > > > That is of course terrible for those 7 families. > > >wC > > > Now, 40.000 people get killed in car accidents *each year* int
 > > > the US.r > > >rF > > > When did the US President hold a specific TV speach about that ? >;C > Well, millions of people travel millions of miles to create thoseaD > fatalities. By contrast, there are only a very few people who haveE > gone into space. If 1 out of every 100 automobile trips resulted in 4 > seven fatalities, you'd hear quite a lot about it! > @ > > Have not done the math yet, but I'd guess that computed on aC > > fatalities per million miles traveled basis, space flight looks, pretty	 > > good.h > F > I don't see how a fatalitites per million miles traveled is relevant? > here. You've only really traveled about 100 miles away (rougho guess).;D > Going in circles isn't really going anywhere. And that's where theB > "millions of miles" come from. From another point of view: Think aboutEE > what great mileage you're getting once you're in orbit. It takes noeF > fuel to *stay* in orbit if you are high enough above the atmosphere.E > An occasional push may be needed otherwise, but what great mileage!mD > But that great mileage doesn't really mean much in the traditionalB > sense. So you can't compare it with mileage obtained by cars and	 > planes.n >dE > Comparing this statistic makes more sense in cases like driving vs.eF > flying. Your costs vary but your benefit is the same: you travel *to a_) > place* that is a certain distance away.	 >n8 > > On the other hand, if calculated on a fatalities perB > > launch/landing basis, it doesn't look so good. But that's what pilotsE > > everywhere know - takeoffs, and particularly landings, are alwaysu thel% > > most dangerous aspects of flight.v >	C > True, except I heard on radio and TV that astronauts fear takeoffe much? > more than they do reentry and landing. But in any case, it isi) > important to ask a meaningful question.i    ? My point was [admittedly not well made] that spin can be put oncE anything almost any way in which you desire it to be spun. As the mann0 said, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:04:52 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>a Subject: Re: ColumbiavI Message-ID: <8by%9.253151$pDv.49406@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>o  @ "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in5 message news:OPQ9bHd+qWO6@eisner.encompasserve.org...n > In articleE <wxv%9.210079$ej1.191358@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "Johns Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:n > >eE > > So they park one or two of these in LEO - two 'stations' launched  on= > > one expendable booster. Each station (maybe the size of ae small/mediumA > > size garden shed excluding the maneuvering engines/fuel load)F carries E > > a large load of maneuvering fuel so the repair station can travell toE > > the shuttle rather than the shuttle having to use its fuel to get- toC > > the repair station. Russians have lots of experience with theirn3 > > unmanned ISS supply flights for remote docking.A >uE >    So it takes a great many of our largest boosters to build one ofiF >    these, not two stations per one booster.  Fuel is heavy.  LiftingC >    fuel takes fuel, and the growth is geometric.  You end up withy@ >    almost the entire lifting capability of the US dedicated to puttinglE >    such stations into orbit and then replacing them every couple ofn >    years.o  @ These things don't have to be bigger than an average sized commsE satellite, which fits fine on your garden variety expendable booster, E and they only have to get into LEO. Put a few up in different orbitalT@ inclinations to cover off equatorial vs. polar orbits, or pointsF between that can be achieved with the fuel on-board the device. If theB US doesn't have the boosters to spare, then perhaps the ESA Ariane@ 4/5, Russian Proton, Chinese Long March, or maybe even the NorthD Korean No Dong, could do the job. The ISS depends on the shuttle, soB what's wrong with expending the boosters on a few orbiting garbageA cans filled with some spare parts? These things would probably beoC use-once items and then put into re-entry mode where they'd burn up 1 and a replacement would be launched in its place.h  A We're talking about an orbiting tool chest/parts bin with limitedcF amounts of both, (including duct tape, which btw is classified as both3 a tool and a part), not a human habitable lifeboat.n  @ Since all the remaining shuttles have Canadarms, the spare partsF container doesn't have to 'dock', it can simply be grappled and act as? the mobile work platform and handy parts bin while an EVA is ins	 progress.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 17:13:46 GMT2# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e2 Subject: Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King?K Message-ID: <elc%9.537956$F2h1.337267@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   ) Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King?p Fri Jan 31, 1:28 PM ET Tiernan Ray, www.NewsFactor.coma  @ For a long time, IBM (NYSE: IBM - news) has been content to be aC bridesmaid, never a bride, in the PC chip market. Although Big BlueAF produces integrated circuits and chips for mainframes, and has put itsF tremendous wealth and foundry expertise at the service of numerous CPUD developers, including AMD (NYSE: AMD - news) and Cyrix, it has never% entered the PC processor fray itself.A  E Since the announcement of the PowerPC 970 last October, however, thatp> may be changing. With this chip, IBM now has the makings of anD excellent mid-range server or workstation chip. To make the 970, IBMB tweaked its mainframe chip, the Power4, which packs two processors> onto a single chip and has an amazing 128 MB of level 3 cache.B The 970 is comparatively low on cache, but IBM claims the chip can? keep up to 200 instructions going at once, surpassing the IntelgD (Nasdaq: INTC - news) Xeon's stated rate of 126 instructions. ThanksD to its 64-bit capability, it can access more memory in a single gulpF than Xeon can for large databases, and it consumes far less power thanC the Itanium -- just tens of watts, compared with Itanium's 100-plus  watts.  A Armed with this powerful new processor, will IBM be able to break'C Intel's stranglehold and emerge as king in the PC desktop or serverr market?i     Think DifferentiE Rumor has it that Apple (Nasdaq: AAPL - news) is a potential customer B for the chip because it wants to replace the Motorola (NYSE: MOT -F news) PowerPC chips in its Power Mac desktop computers. If IBM were toB market the chip not only to Apple, but also to Windows PC OEMs, itF would be a revolution: a 64-bit chip that could scale from desktops to/ the high end of mid-range Wintel-class servers.   B Even admirers, however, have their doubts about the desktop arena.= Thomas R. Halfhill, senior chip analyst with InStat/MDR, toldd? NewsFactor that although IBM's new chip seems "tailor made" foruF professional publishing, he does not expect it to extend the company's< presence in the PC processor market. "I don't see it being aC breakthrough product," he said. "The market has standardized aroundoD the [Intel] x86 instruction set. There's too much new design work toC move to another instruction set, and I just can't see Dell (Nasdaq:  DELL - news) or HP doing that."o     The Real Target E In fact, IBM concedes that 64-bit computing power may be overkill ford> today's desktops. Chekib Akrout, vice president of PowerPC andC networking technology development at Big Blue, told NewsFactor thatfE the company's real target is servers running Xeon and, in the future,i> Itanium 2 chips. Intel's chips run about 87 percent of today's( servers, according to Gartner Dataquest.F According to Akrout, developers struggling with the total power budgetF for racks of multiprocessor Web and database servers will be attractedB to the 970's power savings: It is expected to consume just tens of@ watts, compared with more than 100 watts for the next version of Itanium 2, code-named Madison.  B "If you're going to compete on raw performance, you're going to beE fighting this installed base of applications," Akrout explained. "But D when you find a technological barrier where designers really have toB think differently, then I think you've got a chance to catch their attention."h     Catch Us If You Can C Performance is a moving target, however, and Intel contends it will5C blow away any power advantage the 970 currently holds with its next ? Itanium, dubbed "Deerfield," to be previewed in February at itsaB developer forum. Moreover, Intel spokesperson Bill Kircos says theD business relationships behind Itanium are unstoppable. "We've got 20@ OEMs signed on to Itanium, and seven different operating systems? running it," he told NewsFactor. "I think it's going to be veryo! difficult to overcome that lead."   E Or is it? The one factor many have not taken into account is that theaB "Wintel" empire now has a credible challenger in Linux (news - webE sites), which has become the fastest-growing server operating system,3 according to IDC.r  D Dan Kusnetzky, IDC vice president of systems software research, said@ Linux' ability to run on any one of 37 chips gives IBM and otherD RISC-chip vendors a unique opportunity to diminish the importance ofF Intel's chip instructions. In other words, Linux makes the differences) between chip instructions less important.,     Planting the Seeds? Nonetheless, Kusnetzky told NewsFactor, the economics of the PCrA business mean that even Linux may not be enough of a draw. "For amE company such as Dell, the economics lie in high volume and low cost,"-! he said. "Intel has that nailed."e  C On the other hand, IBM has spent millions helping Linux achieve itsq@ current momentum. At the recent LinuxWorld show in New York, theB company announced new deals with embedded Linux vendor MontaVista.E Perhaps Big Blue hopes that if a thousand flowers bloom in the fieldsl4 of Linux, the PowerPC may someday catch the bouquet.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 19:32:21 -0500'( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>6 Subject: Re: Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King?, Message-ID: <3E3DB895.1080403@tsoft-inc.com>   John Smith wrote:c  + > Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King?r > Fri Jan 31, 1:28 PM ET! > Tiernan Ray, www.NewsFactor.comu     <snip>  3 > Moreover, Intel spokesperson Bill Kircos says thecF > business relationships behind Itanium are unstoppable. "We've got 20B > OEMs signed on to Itanium, and seven different operating systems > running it,"    O Rather interesting claim.  Anyone have any idea who, besides HP, really has to  P use the beast?  How many of those 7 OSs are some form of Unix?  From my limited Q sight, I can see windoze, Unix, and VMS.  Aside from VMS, how many of the others l will NOT run on Hammer?d  % It will be a rather interesting year.r   Dave   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 07:03:32 GMT - From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)n6 Subject: Re: Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King?5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-HPsW2pZ8SY9f@localhost>   D On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 00:32:21 UTC, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  wrote:   > John Smith wrote:n > - > > Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King?  > > Fri Jan 31, 1:28 PM ET# > > Tiernan Ray, www.NewsFactor.com- >  >  > <snip> > 5 > > Moreover, Intel spokesperson Bill Kircos says theoH > > business relationships behind Itanium are unstoppable. "We've got 20D > > OEMs signed on to Itanium, and seven different operating systems > > running it," >  > Q > Rather interesting claim.  Anyone have any idea who, besides HP, really has to iR > use the beast?  How many of those 7 OSs are some form of Unix?  From my limited S > sight, I can see windoze, Unix, and VMS.  Aside from VMS, how many of the others   > will NOT run on Hammer?o >   F At a guess, anybody whose OS is naturally big-endian. That might even D include Solaris, even though there is an I386 Little-endian version.   -- h Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  " Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:15:57 GMT- From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase)e6 Subject: Re: Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King?& Message-ID: <H9q1IL.G5p@world.std.com>  / In article <v3rhla4j8ft617@corp.supernews.com>,t( Greg Cagle  <gregc@gregcagle.com> wrote: > David Froble wrote:-  L > > Rather interesting claim.  Anyone have any idea who, besides HP, really K > > has to use the beast?  How many of those 7 OSs are some form of Unix?  0J > >  From my limited sight, I can see windoze, Unix, and VMS.  Aside from 7 > > VMS, how many of the others will NOT run on Hammer?n > / > HP-UX for one, and I imagine NSK for another.n > ; > As for what the 7 are, I can only identify five distincetu > OSes from Intel's website: > 	 > WindowseO > six varieties of Linux (RH, Caldera, MSC, SUSE, TurboLinux, and United Linux)i > HP-UXr > NSKg > VMSl  K Add NetBSD to that list, but then NetBSD supports pretty much *everything*.t' So, of course, it also supports x86-64.f   -brian.l --  F --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----D           "A tree or shrub can grow and bloom. I am always the same.5                          But I am clever." -- Racter.r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:28:03 -0500A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>o6 Subject: Re: Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King?, Message-ID: <3e3eb4b6_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messagen& news:3E3DB895.1080403@tsoft-inc.com... > John Smith wrote:o >e- > > Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King?o > > Fri Jan 31, 1:28 PM ET# > > Tiernan Ray, www.NewsFactor.comt >  >s > <snip> > 5 > > Moreover, Intel spokesperson Bill Kircos says the-H > > business relationships behind Itanium are unstoppable. "We've got 20D > > OEMs signed on to Itanium, and seven different operating systems > > running it," >a >rI > Rather interesting claim.  Anyone have any idea who, besides HP, really  has toI > use the beast?  How many of those 7 OSs are some form of Unix?  From my  limitedhK > sight, I can see windoze, Unix, and VMS.  Aside from VMS, how many of the  others > will NOT run on Hammer?s >h' > It will be a rather interesting year.e >p  K Name the 20 OEMs signed up to build Hammer systems.  Name the server vendor H who will build 1p to 128p server systems, with mission critical support.   ------------------------------  " Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:39:55 GMT- From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase)h! Subject: Re: DECnet WAN question.-& Message-ID: <H9q86J.3wF@world.std.com>  ' In article <3E37ACB0.3D795875@aaa.com>,?( Jan-Erik Sderholm  <aaa@aaa.com> wrote:  + > Well, in *another* damn leaky boat, not ?a  H Well, in the specific sense, yes--it's /another/ damn leaky boat.   In aJ more general sense, I meant that the IT industry, as a whole, really isn'tI any better off than it was over a decade ago.  If anything, it seems likeh! we're far worse off in some ways.o  ? > And there is an important difference, the DECnent worm seems, = > as you say, to have been exploited poorly secured machines. 8 > But a correctly setup system could not be hit, right ?  J Yes, that's true.  It only took advantage of poorly securely systems which@ were the result of negligent (or at least lazy) system managers.  n? > In the SQL Slammer case, there was *nothing* a sysadmin couldeB > have done *before* MS realesed it's patch last year. The hole inB > SQL Server was "builtin" by design. In theory nothing could have@ > stopped SQL Slammer to have been released before the patch was? > available, and there was very little any sys admin could haveM > done about it.  G Certainly, before the MS patch was released, there wasn't anything that H the sysadmin could do to that specific system running the MS-SQL Server.B This scenario is very different from that of the Father Xmas worm.  F Still, for any competent sysadmin, there was one thing that they couldI have, and should've done, even before there were any signs of exploitableoG holes in the SQL server; that one thing is to block access to ALL portseI which aren't being used for services on the Internet.  Aside from perhaps F HTTP, HTTPS, SMTP, SSH, and maybe FTP or SIMAP, there aren't many goodG reasons to not block the rest of the ports.  Leaving access open on thecG internet to your SQL Server is really stupid.  The fact that there wereiH enough instances of the server running, unprotected, on the net to cause< things to grind to a halt like it did is just amazing to me.  G That's not to say that proper firewalling, or even port blocking at the C router, is a magic cure-all, but it's sure a sensible first line of @ defense.  Of course, given some of the /other/ security flaws inG Microsoft's products, like the ones with their mail clients, it's stilleI pretty easy to for someone to circumvent this obstacle by constructing anl. e-mail virus with an SQL Slammer worm payload.  A > It's a big difference between poorly setup systems, and systemsf* > with builtin security holes by design...   Indeed.r   -brian.  -- bF --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----D           "A tree or shrub can grow and bloom. I am always the same.5                          But I am clever." -- Racter.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 10:58:08 +0000i' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyw, Subject: Re: EV7 / EV8 intellectual property. Message-ID: <3E3E4B40.5040605@nospamn.sun.com>   John Smith wrote: 6 > "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message) > news:29JAN200303373999@gerg.tamu.edu...e > ) >>"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes...04 >>}http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/28947.html >>}lB >>}The EV7 runs at 1GHz and 1.15GHz and only includes one core per >  > chip.e > D >>}It was designed by the old Digital Alpha chip team in Shrewsbury,C >>}Massachusetts, which will eventually be moved over to Intel. Theb >  > chip > F >>}maker last year bought the Alpha team and its intellectual property >  > as > D >>}part of the Alpha sunsetting that Compaq announced prior to being >>}acquired by HP last spring. >>}r >>}e3 >>}So, what does HP own if this article is correct?a >>F >>The article is not correct. Intel didn't buy the Alpha "intellectualF >>property" - they bought a non-exclusive license to all of it. So, inE >>essence, they bought the right to use all the Alpha related patentsoD >>and all other information about it, but HP actually owns it and is >  > free > F >>to use it themselves and to license it to anyone else that they feel >  > like > : >>licensing it to (at the possible risk of anoying Intel). >  >  > E > That's what I thought. So I suppose HP could tell Intel to choke oni- > Itanic II and partner with AMD/IBM instead.r >   8 They could but Itanic is HP's problem child it was after- all their idea in the first place not Intels.n  7 Itanic is a direct decendant of HP-WW (Wide Word) whicho was intended to replace HP-PA.  4 It was HP who went to Intel with the wicked weaze of3 jointly developing what became Itanium, most of ther9 origional IP came from HP. Although HP are now apparentlya3 being sued over the source of some of the origionalv6 HP-WW IP. A case that could materially effect Itanium.   Regards1 Andrew Harrisonw   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:29:40 +0530, From: "Arindam" <arindam-dsp@sail-steel.com> Subject: Hedder full error2 Message-ID: <014901c2cb5a$6047ab40$3c03e980@bofpc>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  + ------=_NextPart_000_0132_01C2CB88.4E5B6B00- Content-Type: text/plain;  	charset="Windows-1252":+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablem  7 I am getting an error in our VAX 3800 system which says9
 "Hedder full"o<  I can log on to the system however cannot create any files. Please helps     Arindam Paul=20e      + ------=_NextPart_000_0132_01C2CB88.4E5B6B003 Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="Windows-1252"o+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable@  > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><BASE=208 href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft = Shared\Stationery\">7 <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =o charset=3Dwindows-1252">9 <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.3825.1300" name=3DGENERATOR> E <META content=3D"C:\PROGRAM FILES\MICROSOFT OFFICE\OFFICE\html.dot" =  name=3DTemplate> <STYLE></STYLE>  </HEAD>.7 <BODY vLink=3D#800080 link=3D#0000ff bgColor=3D#ffffff>nB <DIV>I am getting an error in our VAX 3800 system which says</DIV> <DIV>"Hedder full"</DIV>A <DIV>&nbsp;I can log on to the system however cannot create any =g files.</DIV> <DIV>Please help</DIV>/ <P>&nbsp;</P><B><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>k? <P>Arindam Paul <BR></FONT></B><B><SUP><FONT color=3D#ff0000=20n, size=3D1></P></B></SUP></FONT></BODY></HTML>  - ------=_NextPart_000_0132_01C2CB88.4E5B6B00--o   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 08:50:18 GMTt1 From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie)  Subject: Re: Hedder full error: Message-ID: <e3q%9.20571$2y.1038195@twister.austin.rr.com>  + Arindam (arindam-dsp@sail-steel.com) wrote:o : 9 : I am getting an error in our VAX 3800 system which saysf : "Hedder full"w> :  I can log on to the system however cannot create any files.
 : Please helpo :       $ help/message headerfull  !  HEADERFULL,  file header is full   '   Facility:     SYSTEM, System Services   I   Explanation:  The file header map area on the volume is full and cannot H                 be extended. This error occurs only when the file headerK                 extension is inhibited, for example, when the index file is                  being extended.d  M   User Action:  Compress the volume by copying it with BACKUP. This condition,F                 can be avoided by increasing the value for the /HEADERI                 qualifier of the INITIALIZE command. For ODS-2 disks, the,K                 value of the /HEADER qualifier should equal the approximatei@                 number of files you expect to store on the disk.     You will need to:e     1. backup the affected diskh   2. initialize it1   3. restore the backup using BACKUP/IMAGE/NOINIT   D If you supply the version of VMS, the type of disk and its size fromF a "SHOW DEVICE/FULL Dxxx", and the number of directories and files on 	 the disk:   1    $ dir/size/grand/total dka200:[000000...]*.*;*i  =    Grand total of 161 directories, 9936 files, 400395 blocks.   C someone can provide an answer on how the disk should be initializedt after the backup in step 1.P  2 --Jerry Leslie   (my opinions are strictly my own)9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for emailt  I  P.S. Please don't post HTML. This site should help you make the changes:c  a-       http://www.betips.net/etc/evilmail.htmlt&       Why HTML in E-Mail is a Bad Idea   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 05:02:52 -0800a( From: nedtrilby@hotmail.com (Ned Trilby) Subject: Re: Hedder full error= Message-ID: <4498b45c.0302030502.6c4ca60c@posting.google.com>a  f "Arindam" <arindam-dsp@sail-steel.com> wrote in message news:<014901c2cb5a$6047ab40$3c03e980@bofpc>...9 > I am getting an error in our VAX 3800 system which saysM > "Hedder full" > >  I can log on to the system however cannot create any files.
 > Please help6 >  >  > Arindam Paul - >  > : There are plenty of references in Google - do a search ...  C You should check whether you have run out of disk space - "show devbB d"; if so a "purge /keep=3 disk$dkx000:[000000...]*.* will usually
 free up spaceoF Find out why you are out of space - has someone copied a large file(s) there?C Is some application creating large log file(s) or a large number ofi files?  B Also If you cannot create files on disk you may have this problem:F a;  INDEXF.SYS file is badly fragmented and cannot create new indexes;D if you have a complete backup of the disk then reinitialize the diskB (with "/head=100000" & "/file=100000" - check out these values forA your system (again Google search may help), it is a while since IeE needed to do this but I remember the default values usually needed to 
 be increased)iE If you have no backup you will need to do a backup ("/image" is best) D & then initialize your disk and restore the backup - this will cleanF up the indexf.sys file and defragment your disk (good VMS housekeeping1 - usually a disk defragmenter should be running).k	 Good lucki --   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 05:17:36 -0800n. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: Hedder full error= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302030517.1dd7b4bc@posting.google.com>w  f "Arindam" <arindam-dsp@sail-steel.com> wrote in message news:<014901c2cb5a$6047ab40$3c03e980@bofpc>...9 > I am getting an error in our VAX 3800 system which saysm > "Hedder full"e> >  I can log on to the system however cannot create any files.
 > Please helpu  B Please in the future post the exact error message from the percentD sign to the full text. You can use HELP/MESSAGE to inquire about the message.  B Most likely the file header for INDEXF.SYS is full and all of your@ current file headers are in use. Since extension headers are notD allowed for this file (why I don't know; I think is has something toC do with the boot process), you cannot extend INDEXF.SYS to a largereC size and therefore cannot create any new file headers for it or any  other new extents.  B The solution is to copy the data to tape and back to disk. In someD cases you can PURGE or DELETE some files on that disk to temporarilyD regain some free headers. But in the long run you need to "compress"! the disk (copy to tape and back).d  B What version of VMS are you running? Newer versions of VMS have an> improved INDEXF.SYS extension algorithm that is pretty good atF avoiding this problem. However, there was a version (VMS v5.5-2, IIRC)F for which there was a bug in this algorithm, in which case you need to apply the relevant patch.d    Before you fix the problem, run   3 $ DUMP/HEADER/BLOCK=COUNT=0 disk:[000000]INDEXF.SYSt  @ and see how many extents are in use. If you have many extents of= double-digit size, you have the bug and should get the patch.    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmann   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 08:11:07 -0500 ' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>c Subject: Re: Hedder full error< Message-ID: <howard-8F6F8D.08110703022003@enews.newsguy.com>  2 In article <014901c2cb5a$6047ab40$3c03e980@bofpc>,.  "Arindam" <arindam-dsp@sail-steel.com> wrote:  9 > I am getting an error in our VAX 3800 system which sayss > "Hedder full"r> >  I can log on to the system however cannot create any files.  8 Give us the full error message, and we might be able to.   -- a4 Today, on Paper-view: The World Origami Championship   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 16:44:30 GMTg4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: Hedder full error0 Message-ID: <3E3E9B04.57BE61CC@blueyonder.co.uk>   > Arindam wrote: > 9 > I am getting an error in our VAX 3800 system which sayse > "Hedder full"  >n> >  I can log on to the system however cannot create any files.
 > Please helpo  9 This is a pretty standard question for vms system managerc interviews.x  : Might I suggest your employer stop skimping and hire a VMS system manager of consultant?t   regards   p >  >  > Arindam Paul   -- e tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk r  H * PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:48:14 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>X Subject: RE: How many Publications/Magazines has your software company /product been in?0 Message-ID: <01C2CB71.CF4DF190@sulfer.icius.com>  H Reported to their apparent ISP, dslextreme.com in case anyone feels likeC chipping in with a "me too". There's a "report abuse to" in the fora3 groups-abuse@google.com so I dropped one there too.    Shane-  D Received: from mvb.saic.com by sulfer.icius.com with SMTP (Microsoft4 Exchange Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.996.62), 	id CXG9TDMN; Sun, 2 Feb 2003 17:52:19 -0800 From: info@phaze-9.com (Jana)a X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms1B Subject: How many Publications/Magazines has your software company /product been in?  Date: 2 Feb 2003 17:57:12 -0800i' Organization: http://groups.google.com/ 	 Lines: 43b= Message-ID: <b6addd01.0302021757.22792dfe@posting.google.com>g, Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bitd@ X-Trace: posting.google.com 1044237432 410 127.0.0.1 (3 Feb 2003
 01:57:12 GMT)a( X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com* NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Feb 2003 01:57:12 GMT! Reply-to: info@phaze-9.com (Jana)a X-Gateway-From: mvb.saic.com To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt X-Gateway-Source-Info: USENETt   -----Original Message-----0 From: info@phaze-9.com [mailto:info@phaze-9.com]' Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 5:57 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComoB Subject: How many Publications/Magazines has your software company /product been in?     B How many Publications/Magazines has your software company /product been in?  E Many software companies do not take full advantage of the opportunity-= to hone in on top quality leads through publicity in industryi magazines and trade journals.a <Snip>   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 12:42:08 +0000e' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyr8 Subject: Re: HP announces a new dawn for VMS on itanium!, Message-ID: <3E3E63A0.30604@nospamn.sun.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:o- > it's almost time for a new dawn for vms .... > A > http://www.sap.info/en/news.php4?OID=Article-214973e2fc0a0e2e11   . Was it intentional irony on your part to use a* portal service provided by one of the most, significant non supporters of OpenVMS in the commercial software market ?     Regardse Andrew Harrisons   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 07:21:50 -0800o( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)5 Subject: Ken Farmer calls out the VMS National Guard!t= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0302030721.49befcb3@posting.google.com>o   Do you have what it takes?  9 http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=03/02/03/9067974a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:40:43 +05304 From: Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com>$ Subject: linking multi-threaded appsI Message-ID: <8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C260DC59AC@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>e   HiH Can anyone tell me how to compile and link multi-threaded programs? What link and cc flags to use?r TIA,   Tadimeti Kesav KEANE INDIA Ltd.
 E9 - E12, SDFm NEPZ NOIDA - 201 305f
 U.P, INDIA   Telefon: +91-120-256 8210 (371)h% e-mail: kesav_tadimeti@keaneindia.comu   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 15:39:20 GMTh" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG( Subject: Re: linking multi-threaded apps0 Message-ID: <00A1AEF8.FE5B27FF@SendSpamHere.ORG>   In article <8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C260DC59AC@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>, Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com> writes: >HimI >Can anyone tell me how to compile and link multi-threaded programs? Whatr  4 VAX or Alpha?  The following is applicable to Alpha.     >link and cc flags to use? >TIA,h  I It all depend upon what your application may be doing but generally theretI are no real compile qualifiers needed.  Just in case, however, you shouldaJ look at the documentation for the /REENTRANCY qualifier to the CC command.  I As for linking, you want to look at the linker qualifier /THREADS_ENABLE.e   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMu             5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" -   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 00:02:28 -0800m0 From: kiwitter@Programmer.net (Patrick Kiwitter) Subject: Newbie @ OpenVMS2= Message-ID: <80252768.0302030002.639b26ea@posting.google.com>   	 hi folks,s  A i'am new at OpenVMS and have need some answers.... ok here we go:b  - 1. can i download OpenVMS for free anywhere ?o% 2. where can i get it (openvms.org) ?%* 3. is there an OpenVMS for ix86 hardware ?  . i know.... 1000 times aked these questions....  
 thx at all   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:43:14 -0000* From: "John Travell" <john@travell.uk.net> Subject: Re: Newbie @ OpenVMS 6 Message-ID: <b1le4s$14kv9h$2@ID-120847.news.dfncis.de>  = "Patrick Kiwitter" <kiwitter@Programmer.net> wrote in messagel7 news:80252768.0302030002.639b26ea@posting.google.com...a > hi folks,h >aC > i'am new at OpenVMS and have need some answers.... ok here we go:a >e/ > 1. can i download OpenVMS for free anywhere ?s' > 2. where can i get it (openvms.org) ?e, > 3. is there an OpenVMS for ix86 hardware ? >o0 > i know.... 1000 times aked these questions.... >  > thx at all   1. no.. 2. http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.html 3. nor     -- John Travell  VMS crashdump expertise for hire john@travell.uk.nett http://www.travell.uk.net/       ---i& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 10/01/2003y   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:21:27 +0000 (UTC)+ From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)l Subject: Re: Newbie @ OpenVMS + Message-ID: <b1ljbn$oah$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>g  c In article <b1le4s$14kv9h$2@ID-120847.news.dfncis.de>, "John Travell" <john@travell.uk.net> writes:g >n> >"Patrick Kiwitter" <kiwitter@Programmer.net> wrote in message8 >news:80252768.0302030002.639b26ea@posting.google.com... >> hi folks, >>D >> i'am new at OpenVMS and have need some answers.... ok here we go: >>0 >> 1. can i download OpenVMS for free anywhere ?( >> 2. where can i get it (openvms.org) ?- >> 3. is there an OpenVMS for ix86 hardware ?u >>1 >> i know.... 1000 times aked these questions....* >>
 >> thx at alld >a >1. no.	/ >2. http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.htmla >3. no >r  O Although you can't download OpenVMS for free you can get a hobbyist license andvF media (and licenses for lots of layered products - compilers etc) see 5 http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.html  for $30.e    hK Although VMS won't run natively on ix86 there are a number of VAX emulators L around. These emulate the VAX hardware on Linux or Windows on ix86 and then O allow you to run the hobbyist (or a commercial) version of VAX VMS. The VAX is  J the original 32bit system for VMS (as opposed to the newer Alpha - 64 bit  system).     Emulators include :-  ' simh    - http://simh.trailing-edge.com   / ts10    - http://sourceforge.net/projects/ts10/         J charon-vax  -  http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/product_evaluation.htm!                (Commercial only) c    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   >e >-- 
 >John TravellO! >VMS crashdump expertise for hiren >john@travell.uk.net >http://www.travell.uk.net/n >c >e >g >---' >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.s; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).sB >Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 10/01/2003 >  >  >e >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:36:48 +01002 From: "Michael Mantz" <Michael.Mantz@de.bosch.com> Subject: Re: Newbie @ OpenVMSn4 Message-ID: <b1lr9h$636$1@ns2.fe.internet.bosch.com>  = "Patrick Kiwitter" <kiwitter@Programmer.net> wrote in messagea7 news:80252768.0302030002.639b26ea@posting.google.com...s > hi folks,  > C > i'am new at OpenVMS and have need some answers.... ok here we go:o >r/ > 1. can i download OpenVMS for free anywhere ?p' > 2. where can i get it (openvms.org) ? , > 3. is there an OpenVMS for ix86 hardware ? >.0 > i know.... 1000 times aked these questions.... >p   Hi :o)  $ 3. news:b1et1g$1nc$1@web1.cup.hp.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 13:53:24 GMTs" From: "Oscar Lerma" <o@rgv.rr.com>- Subject: Newbie question on defining a symbolw: Message-ID: <ovu%9.14544$xc.1020888@twister.austin.rr.com>   Hello,  K I am trying to define a symbol at DCL that would return the last day of theoK current month no matter which day of the month it is defined.  For example,wJ it defined today the symbol should return a value of "28-Feb-2003", if runL tomorrow the value should be the same.  Is such logic possible with a simple define statement?h  
 Thank You, Oscar Lermat   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 15:02:52 +0100n' From: huber@mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber) 1 Subject: Re: Newbie question on defining a symboll+ Message-ID: <3m$RbF9gPDWE@vms.mppmu.mpg.de>n  _ In article <ovu%9.14544$xc.1020888@twister.austin.rr.com>, "Oscar Lerma" <o@rgv.rr.com> writes:  > Hello, > M > I am trying to define a symbol at DCL that would return the last day of thetM > current month no matter which day of the month it is defined.  For example,lL > it defined today the symbol should return a value of "28-Feb-2003", if runN > tomorrow the value should be the same.  Is such logic possible with a simple > define statement?a >   , I could send You the answer immediately, butO there was just a discussion in this newsgroup the last week until today with soJ many good code examples. e" Please take the time and read it !  e -- pN Joseph "Sepp" Huber   mailto:joseph.huber@web.de   http://www.huber-joseph.de/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 12:25:52 -0500 & From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>1 Subject: Re: Newbie question on defining a symbolt8 Message-ID: <2b9t3vgft6gdm369qdiu75da43os8sj7h8@4ax.com>  E On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 13:53:24 GMT, "Oscar Lerma" <o@rgv.rr.com> wrote:e   >Hello,p >iL >I am trying to define a symbol at DCL that would return the last day of the> >current month no matter which day of the month it is defined.  F As the previous poster said, you can find a good discussion of this inK comp.os.vms in a discussion thread which was created on 29-Jan-2003. Go to:I  2 	http://groups.google.com/groups?group=comp.os.vms  L put in the search string "submit at end of month", push the comp.os.vms onlyL button, and then view the entire thread. You will find several examples with  varying degrees of "cleverness".I -------------------------------------------------------------------------cI David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot comaI Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)sI -------------------------------------------------------------------------o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:39:57 -0000* From: "John Travell" <john@travell.uk.net>' Subject: Re: Newbie with dumb questions 6 Message-ID: <b1le4r$14kv9h$1@ID-120847.news.dfncis.de>  - "jasper" <jasper@never.tell> wrote in message 2 news:342s3vsqkdtv79duc7u53vq3qpcl49n4ie@4ax.com...G > On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 20:19:13 -0800, jasper <jasper@never.tell> wrote:t >M> > Ignore this request--I jumped in and finally got the licenseD > installed. No gui, so now I don't have the foggiest idea of what IF > should do next. Darn, I had forgotten how hard it is to be a newbie! >  >l. do you have the graphics working under linux ?K You can verify exactly what card you have installed by shutting the machineeJ down and at the console prompt doing a "show config". If you do this, post the results.B We will be able to see from that if you have the graphics hardwareJ installed. While it would be a bit bogus to sell a machine as an 'ultimateK workstation' without a graphics card, until we know it is really there, andTK which variety it is, any advice on how to get the graphics working could bet a waste of time. -- John Travell  VMS crashdump expertise for hire john@travell.uk.netd http://www.travell.uk.net/       --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 10/01/2003g   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 07:47:43 -0600n; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ' Subject: Re: Newbie with dumb questions83 Message-ID: <ZfdT1gPC+Y42@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  [ In article <47rr3vk2eb3rgpdi9tfi287oevgq0ehd04@4ax.com>, jasper <jasper@never.tell> writes:m  G >  I thank you for your response--also the first responder. Your answerrH > here brings up another dumb question. I have joined Encompass and haveF > received my license. But, I have no idea how or where to install it.# > Could you help with that as well?w      Suggestions:e  3    1)  go to www.openvms.compaq.com and get the FAQoF    2)  go to www.openvms.compaq.com/docs and read the system manager's       manual  E    These a great documents and are meant for someone who doens't knowhD    what they're doing.  You'll get your problems solved a lot faster?    than waiting for newsgroup responses.  As for the latter, ite,    should point to sys$update:vmslinces.com.  H    And do keep posting to c.o.v.  We love getting new people involved in    VMS.u   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 00:36:54 GMTi7 From: brad@.homeportal.2wire.net (Bradford J. Hamilton)g' Subject: Re: Newbie with dumb questionse- Message-ID: <GQi%9.135158$Ve4.9154@sccrnsc03>.  [ In article <2tbr3vghrg346708em00dqg23ntau2vcae@4ax.com>, jasper <jasper@never.tell> writes:rG >Okay, here is my situation. I am totally new to VMS. I normally run XP G >and Linux. My main interest is processing data for the SETI program. IsA >obtained a DEC Ultimate Workstation 533au2 with dual Alpha 21164uF >processors (EV56) with 4mb B-cache per cpu. It is set up to dual boot   Nice machine...y  G >between RH Linux 7.2 for Alpha and Open VMS 7.2-1. I currently have ityF >running the RH os and it is processing SETI data as I write. I have aB >gut feeling that VMS would probably process data faster than does >Linux.   N Not necessarily...but that shouldn't be your only reason for preferring an OS.N Many here will tell you that there are many differences between Linux and VMS,= and that there are good reasons to prefer one over the other.-   :-)i  F >        As I am new, I have today received a book I ordered "Open VMSE >User's Guide" by Patrick Holmay. Additionally, I have d/l'ed variouss >info from the web on VMS.    < Here is a good starting point, if you haven't seen this yet:  5 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.htmle  4 Others will doubtless chime in with their favorites.  E >                           In perusing the book, I see no mention of2D >GUI interfaces included---are there any automatically included withG >7.2-1? I am of the opinion that VMS will run CDE, KDE and Motif Gui's,-E >but how do I obtain and install them for VMS? I have nothing against + >command line interface, but prefer a GUI. a  L You might be disappointed in the lack of choice for GUI's, but again, please' don't let that stop you from exploring.n  H >                                           If you could point me in the> >proper direction regarding material to read, acquiring a gui,@ >installing it, etc., I sure would appreciate it. Thanks for any >assistance in advance.   
 Good luck!   >  > ? >-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----nB >http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!? >-----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----   A _________________________________________________________________m0 Bradford J. Hamilton			"All opinions are my own"/ bMradAhamiPltSon@atMtAbi.cPoSm		"Lose the MAPS"    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Feb 2003 13:36:42 -0600e- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 313 Message-ID: <k3PYqW5r6b4S@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <baa86a4a.0302021111.2db94598@posting.google.com>, xeio77@hotmail.com (Tsarkon) writes:F > Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Where > can I buy an 8-way IA-64?   E Since VMS just booted, I think the relevant question would be "when",u not "where".  F Since a production quality VMS will not be release for end users untilD more than a year from now, current purchase of a multiprocessor IA64G hardly matters for purposes of this newsgroup (developers don't require  such).  C Since the fastest Alpha will be faster than the fastest Itanium fora? a while yet, there is also no urgency.  I am confident that SMP = Itanium systems will be ready by the time VMS and the Itaniume= processor are ready for Itanium to be a performance leader in- SMP systems.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 22:49:07 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>m6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31K Message-ID: <Dfh%9.538874$F2h1.138570@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>c  / "Tsarkon" <xeio77@hotmail.com> wrote in messageh7 news:baa86a4a.0302021111.2db94598@posting.google.com...HF > Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Where > can I buy an 8-way IA-64?y  F Apparently SGI "has it now". At least they appear to have 16/32/64-way? versions  http://www.spec.org/cpu2000/results/res2003q1/  As tonD whether you could actually pull you pickup to the loading dock today and get one is another matter.   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:48:50 +0000 (UTC)+ From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)i6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31+ Message-ID: <b1lhei$nai$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>n  g In article <d7791aa1.0302021906.ac16ae9@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:pu >Brannon_Batson@yahoo.com (Brannon Batson) wrote in message news:<4495ef1f.0302020123.4d3c7e81@posting.google.com>... p >> bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0302011833.2fb6a7b0@posting.google.com>... >> > [snip]s >> > kB >> > true, but what is one mans junk is another mans treasure, andA >> > Intel now has alpha and the alpha engineering team, and theyh? >> > will take alpha and incorporate it bit by bit into itanium ' >> > and they will reap the rewards ...  >> S/ >> oh, is that what we're supposed to be doing?t >> i
 >> Brannon >> not speaking for Intel  >i; >yes, that is exactly what you are doing, otherwise itaniume7 >will be just another boat anchor like all the rest ...e8 >you needed alpha technology ... epic will never get out9 >of port unless you add alpha technology ... what did youe; >think you did and got caught in 95-96, you ended up makingg9 >alpha chips over that one ... you stole alpha technology 9 >then and now you wnet and bought the whole alpha team to 7 >help you save the good ship itanic ... the only reason 9 >I hold hope for itanium is the alpha team may be able to 4 >save it ... we shall see with chivano and after ...    G But that's the point Bob. They got the Alpha engineers to try and save NH itanium but it is their general expertise in chip design rather than the: specifics of Alpha technology which they will have to use.O The philosophy of Alpha and IA64 are so far apart that without a major redesignhO of Itanium (ie dropping of Epic and massive streamlining of the chip) then mostnI of the specific's of Alpha design cannot be successfully transplanted to rC Itanium. Any such major redesign is years away (if it ever occurs).s  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 11:33:27 +0000t' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31. Message-ID: <3E3E5387.9040103@nospamn.sun.com>   Tsarkon wrote:F > Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Where > can I buy an 8-way IA-64?m >   2 SGI and Unisys do one. Up to 64 way. Rather Ironic3 that its SGI and Unisys and not HP who are first tot, market with a large SMP IA-64 based machine.   Regards. Andrew HarrisonL   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 06:01:45 -0600f- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 313 Message-ID: <OBQBUD3lTZUb@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  X In article <3E3E5387.9040103@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: >  >  > Tsarkon wrote:G >> Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Where  >> can I buy an 8-way IA-64? >> s > 4 > SGI and Unisys do one. Up to 64 way. Rather Ironic5 > that its SGI and Unisys and not HP who are first tor. > market with a large SMP IA-64 based machine.  ( Perhaps HP has a better sense of timing.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 05:47:04 -0800;( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0302030547.7680cbec@posting.google.com>T  t Brannon_Batson@yahoo.com (Brannon Batson) wrote in message news:<4495ef1f.0302022250.1bf14682@posting.google.com>... > G > There is no pixie dust.  The truth is much less glamorous than that. cC > Listen closely, because truer words were never spoken...Alpha was F > never about the technology.  Technology is the easy part.  Alpha was, > always about the people, and the attitude. >  > It still is. > 	 > Brannonl > not speaking for Intel  8 wrong, IBM and Sun have people, and they definitely have2 an attitude, but they don't and never did have the5 technology ... alpha did and does ... wothout that its9 would just be another chip, and you would not be employedg5 by Intel currently, but in the unemployment line with 8 all the other ibm and sun engineers ... and that line is growing all the time ...   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:58:15 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> 6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31/ Message-ID: <Fzu%9.294$mq7.11@news.cpqcorp.net>l  - "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote in message-0 news:b1j3oe$13c9ua$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de... >nD > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> schreef in bericht& > news:b1et1g$1nc$1@web1.cup.hp.com... > > -----Original Message----- > >  > ) > BTW Does it have a >>> console prompt ?n >s  L No.  And when/if we provide a VMS boot manager, we won't use >>> so we won't* confuse people into thinking it's the SRM.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:00:23 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> 6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 310 Message-ID: <EBu%9.295$lq7.111@news.cpqcorp.net>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:k3PYqW5r6b4S@eisner.encompasserve.org...y? > In article <baa86a4a.0302021111.2db94598@posting.google.com>,n$ xeio77@hotmail.com (Tsarkon) writes:H > > Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Where > > can I buy an 8-way IA-64?c >eG > Since VMS just booted, I think the relevant question would be "when",  > not "where". >sH > Since a production quality VMS will not be release for end users untilF > more than a year from now, current purchase of a multiprocessor IA64I > hardly matters for purposes of this newsgroup (developers don't requiret > such). >sE > Since the fastest Alpha will be faster than the fastest Itanium forsA > a while yet, there is also no urgency.  I am confident that SMPp? > Itanium systems will be ready by the time VMS and the Itaniumh? > processor are ready for Itanium to be a performance leader inh > SMP systems.  G I'm sure that anyone who needs to know for planning purposes, can get anI presentation of the HP Itanium2 roadmap from their sales rep.  Be assuredH5 that the entire range of Itanium2 systems is planned.e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:08:44 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31/ Message-ID: <tJu%9.296$0p7.79@news.cpqcorp.net>r  : "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message/ news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-M5hi7NeKMVqs@localhost...sE > On Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:55:54 UTC, Alder <PGDEHMKOKIMD@spammotel.com>0 > wrote: >8 > > Sue Skonetski wrote:  > > > -----Original Message----- > > >_ > > > From: Grant, Clair > > >0, > > > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 3:40 PM > > >2( > > > To: OpenVMS Systems Software Group > > > # > > > Subject: VMS boots on Itanium0 > > >m > > >s: > > > list of wonderful engineers removed by Sue Skonetski > > >e >  > And again by me :-)s > 2 > I'm sure the list is incomplete, Where's Hoff ?? >2    J The list was a very specific list of those who directly worked on the code& that was used to get us to first boot.K The lack of any particular favorite engineers name doesn't mean they aren't=H working on parts of the port, just that their contribution wasn't on theH very narrow areas needed to get this far.  Steve is involved both on theJ logistics side of making it possible for the architecture sources, as wellB as code that will be used for the first release of VMS on Itanium.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 13:51:24 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancyI6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31. Message-ID: <3E3E73DC.8070404@nospamn.sun.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:Z > In article <3E3E5387.9040103@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: >  >> >>Tsarkon wrote: >>G >>>Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. WhereB >>>can I buy an 8-way IA-64? >>>- >>4 >>SGI and Unisys do one. Up to 64 way. Rather Ironic5 >>that its SGI and Unisys and not HP who are first toM. >>market with a large SMP IA-64 based machine. >  > * > Perhaps HP has a better sense of timing.     Not really.0  3 The HP N4000 introduced in 1999 and replaced by thei/ rp7400 in 2001 was the first HP server designed 8 to support Itanium (8 way). It was introduced with HP-PA9 processors but was upgradable (theoretically) to Itanium.   ; Due to delays and little problems like PA being faster thanL: Itanium this upgrade never materialised and HP N4000 users; who bought the boxes with an aim to upgrade have never beeno= able to do so. However the engineering was apparently done byo9 HP. Either that or they weren't being exactly candid witho their customers.  9 SuperDome was also announced as being Itanium upgradeablee6 and again the engineering has apparently been done, HP6 have also apparently demonstrated Itanium based Domes.  < I doubt that many people would agree that this is HP showing a better sense of timing.Z     Regardsr Andrew Harrison,   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 08:58:46 -0500t& From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 310 Message-ID: <ivv%9.309$ns7.295@news.cpqcorp.net>   Paul Nankervis wrote: B And some information about how much had to be rewritten (eg did itL > involved moving any BLISS/MACRO modules to C? - And has getting rid of VAX/ > and PAL dependencies helped performance any?)s >   G Absolutely no performance measurements have been done yet.  Things are 9I still too volatile.  Many of the compilations were even done with /NOOPT  F so you have half a chance of single stepping through the instructions # and understanding what is going on.   F As for source rewrites, there was some rewritting from MACRO to C for H things that had to be rewritten anyway.  I don't know of any BLISS to C H conversions, but I haven't been keeping track (I've been a touch busy). I   There was some MACRO-64 on Alpha that had to be rewritten (some into C    and some into Itanium Assembly).  I Given that this is common source with the OpenVMS Alpha source pool, I'm a+ guessing there aren't any VAX dependencies.m   -- i John Reaganw' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader4 Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 15:12:04 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31J Message-ID: <8Fv%9.210154$ej1.127431@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  : "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message/ news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-UdUdddUdrdVy@localhost...0 >[F > Quite right Bill. There's a difference between criticising Alphacide= > and criticising a port to Itanium. I don't remember anybodylB > criticising the _principle_ of the latter, even if they did cast doubt E > on the efficacy of Itanium as a CPU per se. Again, any work done inSF > moving the hardware depencies of VMS down the code ladder has got to/ > make it easier to put VMS on other platforms.h >i' > Now all they've got to do is sell it!     F If they ported it to UltraSparc, they'd have it on a platform that hasE wide commercial success, a large mindshare, corporate America buy-in.e   Just speculating.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:11:40 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>d6 Subject: RE: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 319 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEHNGIAA.tom@kednos.com>g   >-----Original Message----- ) >From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com]-( >Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 7:12 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com7 >Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31d >  >l >r; >"Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in messagec0 >news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-UdUdddUdrdVy@localhost... >>G >> Quite right Bill. There's a difference between criticising Alphacidea> >> and criticising a port to Itanium. I don't remember anybodyC >> criticising the _principle_ of the latter, even if they did caste >doubtF >> on the efficacy of Itanium as a CPU per se. Again, any work done inG >> moving the hardware depencies of VMS down the code ladder has got tog0 >> make it easier to put VMS on other platforms. >>( >> Now all they've got to do is sell it! >i >sG >If they ported it to UltraSparc, they'd have it on a platform that hasoF >wide commercial success, a large mindshare, corporate America buy-in.  F They are buying Sun, not Ultrasparc, just as people buy VMS not Alpha,* the hardware is just the delivery vehicle.   >h >Just speculating. >h >a >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).eA >Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003  >  ---(& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:16:01 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>h6 Subject: RE: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660D14@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Andrew,o   Hey .. He's back ..s   :-)o   Re: performance of IA64 ..  5 A bit of history might help you to better understand.   E When the initial Alpha systems came out, they were not as powerful as A the larger VAX systems at the time. Over time, as the HW designs,dH compilers, tuning etc became much better, the newer Alpha systems pulled  away from even the larger VAX's.  H I expect the same to be the case for Alpha--> IPF as well as PA-RISC --> IPF.  $ Oh, but you knew that anyway, right?   :-)n  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicese Voice: 613-592-4660e Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)m OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM-     -----Original Message-----' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyy1 [mailto:Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com]=20d Sent: February 3, 2003 8:51 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31         Larry Kilgallen wrote:I > In article <3E3E5387.9040103@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK=20  > Consultancy writes:l >=20 >> >>Tsarkon wrote: >>J >>>Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Where=20 >>>can I buy an 8-way IA-64? >>>y >>4 >>SGI and Unisys do one. Up to 64 way. Rather Ironic5 >>that its SGI and Unisys and not HP who are first to . >>market with a large SMP IA-64 based machine. >=20 >=20* > Perhaps HP has a better sense of timing.     Not really.3  3 The HP N4000 introduced in 1999 and replaced by theu/ rp7400 in 2001 was the first HP server designednG to support Itanium (8 way). It was introduced with HP-PA processors butD* was upgradable (theoretically) to Itanium.  H Due to delays and little problems like PA being faster than Itanium thisG upgrade never materialised and HP N4000 users who bought the boxes with H an aim to upgrade have never been able to do so. However the engineeringD was apparently done by HP. Either that or they weren't being exactly candid with their customers.  9 SuperDome was also announced as being Itanium upgradeable(6 and again the engineering has apparently been done, HP6 have also apparently demonstrated Itanium based Domes.  < I doubt that many people would agree that this is HP showing a better sense of timing.e     Regardsg Andrew Harrison3   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 15:05:25 +0000S' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyd6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31. Message-ID: <3E3E8535.2040701@nospamn.sun.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:Nv > Brannon_Batson@yahoo.com (Brannon Batson) wrote in message news:<4495ef1f.0302022250.1bf14682@posting.google.com>... > G >>There is no pixie dust.  The truth is much less glamorous than that.  C >>Listen closely, because truer words were never spoken...Alpha wasaF >>never about the technology.  Technology is the easy part.  Alpha was, >>always about the people, and the attitude. >> >>It still is. >>	 >>Brannonb >>not speaking for Intel >  > : > wrong, IBM and Sun have people, and they definitely have4 > an attitude, but they don't and never did have the7 > technology ... alpha did and does ... wothout that ita; > would just be another chip, and you would not be employed-7 > by Intel currently, but in the unemployment line with : > all the other ibm and sun engineers ... and that line is > growing all the time ...    ) It depends what you define as technology.o  0 We can argue about SPARC vs Power vs Alpha until. we are blue in the face, but they are only one4 component in a system which also includes, compilers OS, interconnect, etc.  7 Whatever you may think about Alphas superior technologyo4 which is an opinion you are welcome to, it is a fact9 that this technology lead if it existed hasn't translated 5 itself into a signigicant measurable lead in any kind1: of metric that makes a difference to consumers of systems.  > For example there is a dearth of current or historic benchmarkB results that show that this apparent technology lead is translated+ into leading comparative benchmark results.p  7 The only conclusions you can draw from this that either 7 the technology lead that you thought the combination ofe6 Alpha and its compilers had over other RISC processors5 and their compilers is illusory or that whatever lead47 Alpha had was easily offset by it being shoehorned intol8 systems that trailed their competition from a technology standpoint.   ; Designing and building a large server is a holistic processE; and doesn't begin and end with the CPU is is also something1 you clearly don't grasp.   Regardsi Andrew Harrisono   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 09:59:59 -06002; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 313 Message-ID: <roO5PXa8DO+x@eisner.encompasserve.org>0  X In article <3E3E5387.9040103@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: >  >  > Tsarkon wrote:G >> Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Wherea >> can I buy an 8-way IA-64? >> l > 4 > SGI and Unisys do one. Up to 64 way. Rather Ironic5 > that its SGI and Unisys and not HP who are first tol. > market with a large SMP IA-64 based machine.  G    Why should HP go to all that work, when for now the Alpha is faster?E  D    SGI and Unisys aren't exactly leading the industry in sales these    days.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 10:02:01 -0600t; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 6 Subject: RE: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 313 Message-ID: <TUIUzshN5Mi5@eisner.encompasserve.org>0  ~ In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660D14@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes: > G > When the initial Alpha systems came out, they were not as powerful asn% > the larger VAX systems at the time.   F    They were pretty damn close.  I ordered the slowest, cheapest AlphaE    DEC made and it ran so close to what a VAX 9000 could do I ignored1    the difference.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:14:19 -0500, From: "warren sander" <warren.sander@hp.com>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31/ Message-ID: <Izw%9.313$oE7.50@news.cpqcorp.net>f  J As with most things the engineering group tends to do they acomplish stuff0 on Friday afternoons.. The folks that update theJ boot page were gone for the weekend so we couldn't pull down the contest..  H BTW.. Folks that rushed out to fill in the 'correct' date/time after theJ boot.. Those entries are not being used. I pulled all the entries and sent them4 to sue before she put out the notice on comp.os.vms.  E sue will announce the winners when she gets all the stuff finalized..t    8 "Paul Nankervis" <paulnank@hotmail.com> wrote in message+ news:b1kud9$etc$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...l >.B > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message& > news:b1et1g$1nc$1@web1.cup.hp.com... >c& > > To: OpenVMS Systems Software Group > >-! > > Subject: VMS boots on Itanium- > >-L > > We are please to announce that OpenVMS has booted on an HP i2000 ItaniumK > > system. By successfully executing a DIRECTORY command the official date  > and$> > > time for the Boot Contest is January 31, 2003 3:31 PM EST. >eE > Congratulations to all involved. This is indeed a good bit of news.r > 0 > Now how long before we see the I386 port?  :-) > I > And I notice that the boot contest entry page is still there. Is it too  late > for someone to enter? :-)dC > http://h18003.www1.hp.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/openvms_contest.htmlr >eK > Also I notice lots of commentory on the slashdot web site. Looks like notn > everyone is a VMS fan... :-(F > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/01/1814211  There is also a mention	$ > of this feat on the inquirer pagesI > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7551 but no mention on the registeru yet? >aH > Anyhow this news was good to hear!  It would be nice if there are someI > followups to provide technical information and war stories about how iteJ > went. And some information about how much had to be rewritten (eg did itL > involved moving any BLISS/MACRO modules to C? - And has getting rid of VAX/ > and PAL dependencies helped performance any?)m >iH > Now I just need to figure out where I can get a cheap Itanium....  :-( >p > Paul Nankervis >p >-   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:13:41 +0100 (MET)g9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> 6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31; Message-ID: <01KS0BY99VRS9GVJIW@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>c  I > > When the initial Alpha systems came out, they were not as powerful as ' > > the larger VAX systems at the time.r > H >    They were pretty damn close.  I ordered the slowest, cheapest AlphaG >    DEC made and it ran so close to what a VAX 9000 could do I ignoredr >    the difference.  < Even though those early ALPHAs were quite expensive (both inF price/performance AND just price) by today's standards, I'm sure they C were much cheaper (both initial and running costs) than a VAX 9000.M   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:03:48 +0100$ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31+ Message-ID: <00A1AF37.10B39CC6.12@decus.de>.  6 "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote:   > [...]  >eJ > We are please to announce that OpenVMS has booted on an HP i2000 ItaniumM > system. By successfully executing a DIRECTORY command the official date andi< > time for the Boot Contest is January 31, 2003 3:31 PM EST. >. > [...]   ( Apparently the "OpenVMS boot contest" atA http://h18003.www1.hp.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/openvms_contest.html3C is still available to participants on 3-Feb-2003 at 14:20 (UTC) ...n   Michaelg   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:05:15 +0100$ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31+ Message-ID: <00A1AF37.44455CFA.15@decus.de>s  6 "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:   > [...]  >u+ > > BTW Does it have a >>> console prompt ?e > >l >eN > No.  And when/if we provide a VMS boot manager, we won't use >>> so we won't, > confuse people into thinking it's the SRM.  A Why??? VAX and Alpha use the very same console prompt and usuallyo! people aren't confused at all ...u  4 (Are you obliged to use "Intel inside>" instead? :-)   Michaelp   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:26:19 +0000 (UTC)5 From: "John Wallace" <johnwallace4@yahoo.dotco.dotuk> 6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 311 Message-ID: <b1m8nq$djt$1@knossos.btinternet.com>e  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:OBQBUD3lTZUb@eisner.encompasserve.org...fF > In article <3E3E5387.9040103@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes:e > >e > >a > > Tsarkon wrote:I > >> Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Wherer > >> can I buy an 8-way IA-64? > >> > >y6 > > SGI and Unisys do one. Up to 64 way. Rather Ironic7 > > that its SGI and Unisys and not HP who are first toe0 > > market with a large SMP IA-64 based machine. >-* > Perhaps HP has a better sense of timing.   (hope the attributions are OK)  L I couldn't find a Unisys 64way (see below). Presumably SGI design+make their own?  I The Unisys Itanium 2 machine I did find seems to be related to an earlierTL Unisys ES7000 Cellular MultiProcessing box which Compaq attempted to sell asH the Proliant ML770. The one which Compaq gave up on after no more than aG year because they couldn't find enough customers to buy that particulariE vendor/hardware/software combination. There's even a story that GatesoB ordered Compaq to sell it or else, to prove Windows Datacentre was enterprise ready.g  I Anyway, as I read it, the Unisys ES7000 Itanium 2 only goes up to 32 in ahK box, and it is actually two independent 16way systems. 16way could class asv large in some markets.  I The only reference I could find to a 64-way Unisys Itanium box is a brief-L reference to a hypothetical bizarre combination of  32 Xeons and two sets ofL 16 IA64s in the same box (mentioned briefly in last para of 64way ES7000 URL below).w  L However, didn't Fujitsu also recently announce a range of  big SMP Itanium 2I machines, up to 128 CPU planned (by 2005 using dualcore CPUs)? Can't find7L any real details with a quick glance at Fujitsu Siemens UK website though. AH search for Itanium gives old-hat results. Fujitsu Siemens are an x86 andK SPARC shop today. In fact the only recent Fujitsu Itanium reference I couldq2 google reasonably quickly is the one I read first:2 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/29007.html  J Btw, the other thing I found interesting about this little bit of researchK is that the Unisys community manages to sustain a monthly magazine. If they ( can, what were DEC User etc doing wrong?   regards  john   Proliant ML770 links:gI Now you see it: http://www.unisysworld.com/monthly/2000/04/comtoadd.shtmltJ Now you don't: http://www.unisysworld.com/pressrel/2001/05/01_compaq.shtmlI It looked like this: http://www.compaq.com/products/servers/proliantml770e   Unisys ES7000 for Itanium 2:8 http://www.unisysworld.com/monthly/2002/08/itanium.shtml  L 64way ES7000: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/26205.html - last
 paragraph.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:37:08 -0500A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>e6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31. Message-ID: <3e3ea8c5$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message., news:n3ydnVDq965qz6CjXTWcog@metrocast.net... >e     Bill,1  I I think it's fair to say that many of your comments here generally can be  characterized in this way -n  F "I think XXX will fail to YYY, but even if it does succeed, it doesn't- matter because Alpha would have been better."o  J I also think that you look for joy/validation in the potential failures ofE Intel, Microsoft, IPF, HP, various former and current executives, andr ultimately VMS.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:29:40 +0000n' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancye6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31. Message-ID: <3E3EA704.9020406@nospamn.sun.com>   Main, Kerry wrote:	 > Andrew,  >  > Hey .. He's back ..w >  > :-)c >   0 Oh no Kerrys got a bit overconfident and started, posting again. For reasons why this is a bad
 idea read on.o     > Re: performance of IA64 .. > 7 > A bit of history might help you to better understand.a >   0 Thanks for the "leason" now here is one for you.  G > When the initial Alpha systems came out, they were not as powerful as.C > the larger VAX systems at the time. Over time, as the HW designs,-J > compilers, tuning etc became much better, the newer Alpha systems pulled" > away from even the larger VAX's. >   6 Sorry Kerry but this is total BS and not only that but, its BS based on your own public information.   Read? http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/vups_297.html   > Note its an HP document. Note that the CMOS4 process which was= the first Alpha process was also used to produce the 7000-610t< VAX, note the documents performance claims for Alpha vs VAX.  8 Perhaps a bit more research on your part would help your	 argument.e   Regardss Andrew Harrisono   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 09:42:20 -0800S" From: xeio77@hotmail.com (Tsarkon)6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31< Message-ID: <baa86a4a.0302030942.2800756@posting.google.com>  A Marketing crap, experimental machines and bogus price lists don'toC count. When I see one, its out. And I doubt anyone would be foolisheC enough to waste money on that power hungry monstrosity. Every otheroC n-way implementation, from Power to SPARC, to MIPS, to HPPA put outn# less heat than Itanic.Space.Heater.d  E And please don't mention Micrsoft's bleating fool-lackey, UniShit. OflD all the piece of garbage companies in the world, UniShit ranks about -273 degrees C.e  D As far as SGI goes, it saddens me to see them dabbling in crap. MIPS is a great CPU architecture.  C I can't believe in a VMS group we dont have complete and total lustnB for the almighty alpha. I think that this place is going soft, andE that all you people run Windows XP and talk about your HyperThreadingSE and cant wait to run VMS on an Itanic and waste more of your and yourt companies money on crap.  F Death to Carly Fiorina. [Echelon, Carnivore, US gestapo troll, NSA and= all the other spy-on-citizen shit, I mean that figureatively]    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:43:19 -0500A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>d6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31. Message-ID: <3e3eaa38$1_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3E3DCDBD.C33E7D58@fsi.net...e > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >e0 > > In article <3e3b45cb_2@news.chariot.net.au>,= > >         Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes:- > > > 8< snip 8< > > >_H > > > Many congratulations to VMS Engineering (who in spite of not a fewK > > > obstacles and many naysayers have shown, once again, that they can do A > > > whatever they set their minds - and are permitted - to do!)  > > >i > >eI > > I don't think that there was anyone here who doubted that engineeringFJ > > could make VMS boot and even run on IA64.  The naysayers just doubt it& > > is the path they should be taking. >g@ > I'd like to go on record as saying that VMS on Itanic is fine,H > especially if marketable, mass-producible, ready-for-prime-time Itanic( > systems ever see the light of VMS day.  J Itanium systems will ship with VMS.  The systems exist today, and more andL more are being released, and are on roadmaps.  Of course, your insistance onJ the insulting reference to the chip architecture says a lot about what you really think/hope.   > Needless to say, I have myD > doubts, and everyday that Itanic is delayed further fortifies that > doubt. >,  J You can buy Itanium systems today from HP and other vendors.  I'm not sureF exactly what your attempt to use the specific chip schedule for futureL generation chips has to do with the price of tea in China.  It has no effect on the VMS schedule.  C > On the other hand, if Itanic only is the target, than no, that isOI > *DEFINITELY* not the path to take, especially now that AMD seems poised8 > to take the 64-bit lead. >o  L "Poised to ..."  seems like the same wishful thinking marketspeak I've heard= before.  Let us know when they lead anything other than hype..  ' > > But that's a managment issue and weW > > all know how good that is. > I > It would be more correct to say that management, or more correctly, thee > lack thereof, *IS* the issue!0 >eJ > OVMS Engr. is, IMO, by far the greatest bunch of tech. folks you'll everH > find. I do not hold their loyalty to their management against them. BeJ > there a wolf or two among the sheep who has yet to rise up in defense of: > VMS, then such is(are) the one(s) I would hold at fault. >u  7 Not quite sure I understand what you are trying to say..   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 11:51:37 -0600b+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)B6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 313 Message-ID: <cFJsBCXQuPzT@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  b In article <baa86a4a.0302021111.2db94598@posting.google.com>, xeio77@hotmail.com (Tsarkon) writes:F > Snore. Snore. Snore. Itanium is a pipe dream. I hope you know. Where > can I buy an 8-way IA-64?r >   - http://www.sgi.com/servers/altix/configs.htmle  P        SGI Altix 3300 Server                        SGI Altix 3700 Supercluster K Processors 900 MHz Intel Itanium 2 microprocessors   900 MHz or 1 GHz Intel O                                                      Itanium 2 microprocessors h  H Number of processors 4, 8, or 12                          4 to hundreds   D Node size (single operating system image) 4-12 CPUs       4-64 CPUs      				Robg   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:56:57 -0500A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>s6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31, Message-ID: <3e3ead6a_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageD news:8Fv%9.210154$ej1.127431@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... > < > "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message1 > news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-UdUdddUdrdVy@localhost...t > > H > > Quite right Bill. There's a difference between criticising Alphacide? > > and criticising a port to Itanium. I don't remember anybody D > > criticising the _principle_ of the latter, even if they did cast > doubtdG > > on the efficacy of Itanium as a CPU per se. Again, any work done inhH > > moving the hardware depencies of VMS down the code ladder has got to1 > > make it easier to put VMS on other platforms.i > >r) > > Now all they've got to do is sell it!  >  > H > If they ported it to UltraSparc, they'd have it on a platform that hasG > wide commercial success, a large mindshare, corporate America buy-in.U >o > Just speculating.R >O  H Geez, you can't win.  Why would we want to port somthing with no future?L The Itanium2 today is faster than Sparc, and HP will be building large scaleI servers that Sparc won't get within spitting distance of.  The only things= holding Sun/Sparc together is loyalty, lock-in, and intertia.n  J Ooooh.  Ooops, I forgot.  Andrew will trot out some benchmark dejur (otherJ than ones they are fading fast on - like Spec) and claim that when runningK some specific thing, while standing on one foot, Sun has a benchmark nobodyRJ else has... probably because nobody else cares.  Or whine because they wayL *they* run some artificial benchmark is somehow more realistic than how *we* run the artificial benchmark.i  I Truth is, they've lost the workstation market, and they are fading in theaH server market.  I admire many of the things that they've done in SW (andA shuddered at some), but am completely unimpressed with their chipUK technology - or it's future.  They need to port to x86-64, dump Sparc - andh" then things would get interesting.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:03:40 -0500A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>e6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31. Message-ID: <3e3eaefd$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  1 "Michael Unger" <unger@decus.de> wrote in messagem% news:00A1AF37.44455CFA.15@decus.de...88 > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: >t	 > > [...]h > > - > > > BTW Does it have a >>> console prompt ?s > > >  > > J > > No.  And when/if we provide a VMS boot manager, we won't use >>> so we won'ts. > > confuse people into thinking it's the SRM. >tC > Why??? VAX and Alpha use the very same console prompt and usuallyI# > people aren't confused at all ...e >n6 > (Are you obliged to use "Intel inside>" instead? :-) >e  L 1) You'd be suprised how many people get confused by things.  You just don't see the complaints.n  J 2) Itanium already has a console.  It's called EFI.  We don't plan to have any required VMS firmware.  L 3) As a VMS-friendly feature, we are hoping to provide a VMS boot manager (aH console application) that will do some things to make life easier - likeI translate path names into VMS device names, allow set/show of environmentu> variables, and provide a boot command line similar to the SRM.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:14:14 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 312 Message-ID: <66WcnYn5MsIfLKOjXTWc3g@metrocast.net>  L "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote in message( news:3e3ea8c5$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com... >m7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message . > news:n3ydnVDq965qz6CjXTWcog@metrocast.net... > >- >  >a > Bill,3 >bK > I think it's fair to say that many of your comments here generally can be  > characterized in this way -t >uH > "I think XXX will fail to YYY, but even if it does succeed, it doesn't/ > matter because Alpha would have been better."m  K And *I* think it is fair to say that such generalizations (with, of course,0D no supporting citations - something I'm considerably more careful toH provide) tend to be full of shit - not to mention being 100.00% false ifE applied (as you appear to be attempting to) to this particular topic.I   >kL > I also think that you look for joy/validation in the potential failures ofG > Intel, Microsoft, IPF, HP, various former and current executives, ande > ultimately VMS.t  5 Your misconceptions are your problem, Fred, not mine.p   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 11:46:32 +0000s' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancytJ Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel. Message-ID: <3E3E5698.1030201@nospamn.sun.com>   Bill Todd wrote:: > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:fSiIgis3U5EB@eisner.encompasserve.org...o >  > ...n >  > $ >>on-chip switches coming to Itanium >  > J > Got a reference for that?  I certainly haven't seen any projected ItanicK > that seems likely to support on-chip switches before 2006 at the earliestaM > (and nothing specific there, either:  it's just that every version prior tooN > that data seems explicitly to *exclude* the possibility).  Or on-chip memory< > controllers, for that matter (SPARC has them today, IIRC). >   > UltraSPARC III has an onchip memory controller as does Hammer.     Regards. Andrew Harrisone   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 07:22:53 -06008- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) J Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel3 Message-ID: <wfTUeFiMP9wt@eisner.encompasserve.org>y  X In article <3E3E575E.5090004@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: >  >  > Robert Deininger wrote:y  K >> If these were VMS results, you should realize that VMS does not yet knowiL >> anything about "near" and "far" memory on Marvel systems.  And AFAIK, VMSJ >> does not provide a way for applications to figure this out and optimize$ >> memory allocation within the app. > 5 > Which is why the results were done as all big Alphah2 > benchmarks have been done since the intro of the2 > GS160/320 with Tru64 which does know about local > and remote memory.  A Your theory (since I doubt that HP shares their funding rationale ? with you) is a possibility, but only distant.  Much more likelyt@ is that they see Unix as the market where such benchmarks matter? more, as a Unix fan is more likely to switch vendors than a VMSc fan.  2 > The fact that OpenVMS doesn't apparently support1 > this makes the performance numbers published byl1 > HP such as they are even more irrelevent to thes > OpenVMS community.  ? While some might prefer the performance benchmarks were done one? VMS systems, a lot of that is just wanting to know VMS is fully @ respected at HP headquarters.  After all, _some_ people say that= no benchmark can be as meaningful as ones own application :-)P   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 10:01:33 -0800 ' From: icerq4a@spray.se (David Svensson)tJ Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel= Message-ID: <734da31c.0302031001.42656c98@posting.google.com>o  R Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote > @ > UltraSPARC III has an onchip memory controller as does Hammer. > 	 > Regardst > Andrew Harrisonu  ' Why are they (UltraSPARC) so slow then?s   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 07:33:25 -0500s2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)Y Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha RetaaL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0302030733250001@user-2ive28o.dialup.mindspring.com>  M In article <3E3E575E.5090004@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew.Harrison@Sun.COM wrote:   K >> If these were VMS results, you should realize that VMS does not yet knowoL >> anything about "near" and "far" memory on Marvel systems.  And AFAIK, VMSJ >> does not provide a way for applications to figure this out and optimize$ >> memory allocation within the app. >u4 >Which is why the results were done as all big Alpha1 >benchmarks have been done since the intro of thei1 >GS160/320 with Tru64 which does know about locali >and remote memory.n >n1 >The fact that OpenVMS doesn't apparently supportf0 >this makes the performance numbers published by0 >HP such as they are even more irrelevent to the >OpenVMS community.   @ I'll type slowly so you have a better chance of understanding...    I VMS does not YET support NUMA-awareness on MARVEL systems.  On Marvel, itiD was clear from the prototype days that NUMA-awareness has negligibleJ benefit for Marvel, at least up to 16P.  The extra work was deferred untilE after first ship. In short, VMS on Marvel isn't NUMA-aware because itI doesn't need to be.   B VMS has supported NUMA-awareness for quite a while on GS320/160/80D systems.  For many workloads, it improves performance significantly.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:42:03 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>eY Subject: RE: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha Reta T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660D13@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Robert,m  H And as a way to emphasize what you are saying about increases in OpenVMSG performance, folks can review this large Customer application benchmark.H that was done last Oct (and additional perf optimizations have been done since then as well):  1 http://www.wallstreetsystems.com/news/hpbench.htm F "New York and London, Tuesday, 1st October 2002 - Wall Street Systems,? Inc., a leading provider of global treasury and capital markets H solutions and services, today announced the results of benchmark testingG of The Wall Street System(r) treasury engine performed under laboratoryeE conditions at the Hewlett-Packard Company's New Hampshire engineeringnE benchmark center. The Wall Street System treasury engine exceeded onefE million FX transactions per day, representing a five-fold improvementiG from the previously measured peak performance. It processed a peak loadu, of approximately 45,000 new deals per hour."  B Over a period of several months, the Wall Street Systems Technical@ Design Team, in collaboration with HP's OpenVMS operating systemH developers, redesigned the FX deal processing modules of The Wall StreetH System treasury engine, with a view to further increasing FX transactionF processing rates. The FX deal processing modules take advantage of newA operating system features created by HP expressly for Wall StreetW Systems.  G Mark Tirschwell, Chief Technology Officer, Wall Street Systems, states:rG "The tremendous performance gains can be attributed to a combination ofrA HP AlphaServer systems and software architecture that enables our G solution to operate resiliently in a high performance environment. ThishH is particularly important as The Wall Street System treasury engine mustG be able to process a high-volume of transactions for clients 24 hours a  day, seven days a week."  H The global requirements of the customers of Wall Street Systems, runningG an enterprise-wide solution, demand ongoing investment in benchmarking. C In the specific area of FX trading, the need to process significantr> numbers of transactions is essential in running a worldwide FXD operation. During the tests, new, advanced techniques were developed> that enable The Wall Street System treasury engine to run manyH concurrent FX position processing queues and maximize FX throughput. TheH new structure allows deals to be submitted and completely processed fromF a front-office perspective in a single step, ensuring users around the+ world are working with real-time positions.   D This industry leading performance was achieved running on the latestH version of HP OpenVMS (Version 7.3-1) running on HP AlphaServer systems.C "I'm delighted to see this performance breakthrough, resulting fromnG close collaboration between one of our leading Financial Services ISVs,1F and the latest technology from OpenVMS and our AlphaServer engineeringG teams," said Mark Gorham, vice president, HP's OpenVMS Software Group."b   Regardss  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultants Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicess Voice: 613-592-4660r Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)d OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM.     -----Original Message-----< From: Robert Deininger [mailto:rdeininger@mindspring.com]=20 Sent: February 3, 2003 7:33 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComCC Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release forr Marvel and Alpha Retain Trusta    F In article <3E3E575E.5090004@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew.Harrison@Sun.COM wrote:  I >> If these were VMS results, you should realize that VMS does not yet=20-I >> know anything about "near" and "far" memory on Marvel systems.  And=20oH >> AFAIK, VMS does not provide a way for applications to figure this out  1 >> and optimize memory allocation within the app.  > 4 >Which is why the results were done as all big Alpha1 >benchmarks have been done since the intro of theK1 >GS160/320 with Tru64 which does know about localr >and remote memory.n >.1 >The fact that OpenVMS doesn't apparently supporth0 >this makes the performance numbers published by0 >HP such as they are even more irrelevent to the >OpenVMS community.U  @ I'll type slowly so you have a better chance of understanding...    F VMS does not YET support NUMA-awareness on MARVEL systems.  On Marvel,G it was clear from the prototype days that NUMA-awareness has negligible4D benefit for Marvel, at least up to 16P.  The extra work was deferredH until after first ship. In short, VMS on Marvel isn't NUMA-aware because it doesn't need to be.  B VMS has supported NUMA-awareness for quite a while on GS320/160/80D systems.  For many workloads, it improves performance significantly.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 11:49:50 +0000i' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancytY Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha Retad. Message-ID: <3E3E575E.5090004@nospamn.sun.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:eO > In article <3E37E0D8.2060007@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew.Harrison@Sun.COM wrote:t >  > B >>Incedentally you really have to laugh over the other "benchmark"8 >>numbers used to justify the Marvel performance claims. >>	 >>STREAMSe >>9 >>16 CPU's do almost exactly 16 x 1 CPU streams perf. Not 6 >>suprising when you realise that Alpha benchmark used: >>OpenMP and the NUMA omp directive which makes all memory" >>access local rather than remote. >  > J > If these were VMS results, you should realize that VMS does not yet knowK > anything about "near" and "far" memory on Marvel systems.  And AFAIK, VMSsI > does not provide a way for applications to figure this out and optimizes# > memory allocation within the app.   3 Which is why the results were done as all big Alpha>0 benchmarks have been done since the intro of the0 GS160/320 with Tru64 which does know about local and remote memory.  0 The fact that OpenVMS doesn't apparently support/ this makes the performance numbers published bye/ HP such as they are even more irrelevent to theh OpenVMS community.   regardsn Andrew Harrisono   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 15:23:21 +0000e' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancyeY Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha Retah. Message-ID: <3E3E8969.7070504@nospamn.sun.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:nO > In article <3E3E575E.5090004@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew.Harrison@Sun.COM wrote:i >  > K >>>If these were VMS results, you should realize that VMS does not yet knowgL >>>anything about "near" and "far" memory on Marvel systems.  And AFAIK, VMSJ >>>does not provide a way for applications to figure this out and optimize$ >>>memory allocation within the app. >>5 >>Which is why the results were done as all big Alphar2 >>benchmarks have been done since the intro of the2 >>GS160/320 with Tru64 which does know about local >>and remote memory. >>2 >>The fact that OpenVMS doesn't apparently support1 >>this makes the performance numbers published byo1 >>HP such as they are even more irrelevent to the  >>OpenVMS community. >  > B > I'll type slowly so you have a better chance of understanding... >  > K > VMS does not YET support NUMA-awareness on MARVEL systems.  On Marvel, itdF > was clear from the prototype days that NUMA-awareness has negligibleL > benefit for Marvel, at least up to 16P.  The extra work was deferred untilG > after first ship. In short, VMS on Marvel isn't NUMA-aware because itH > doesn't need to be.- >   8 However HP use 3 actual benchmarks and one non benchmark4 to try to justify their claims of MARVEL performance domination.O  9 The I/O non benchmark we can safely ignore as overzealousa3 marketing. That leaves STREAMS, SPECint and SPECfp.3  4 Whatever the actual reasons for leaving NUMA support6 out of OpenVMS for the 16 way system, the fact is that7 the STREAMS result and one of the key benchmark resultsa4 designed to support the MARVEL claims makes use of a3 NUMA optimisation on Tru64 to get good performance.S  5 So until NUMA support is added to OpenVMS this result  is irrelevant to OpenVMS users.   D > VMS has supported NUMA-awareness for quite a while on GS320/160/80F > systems.  For many workloads, it improves performance significantly.  B But not enough to stop people having to use Oracle Parallel ServerA in a box to get decent throughput. This was a recommendation madeeE to one GS160 customer when they found that it was in fact slower than-! their GS140 which had fewer CPU'sr   Regards  Andrew HArrison5   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:56:11 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> Y Subject: RE: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha RetasT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660D15@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Andrew, Andrew ..n  F >>> But not enough to stop people having to use Oracle Parallel ServerH in a box to get decent throughput. This was a recommendation made to oneD GS160 customer when they found that it was in fact slower than their! GS140 which had fewer CPU's<<<=20   E While I suspect this was before the better NUMA enhancements were puthE into OpenVMS (around V7.3-1), the reality is that a large SMP box cano@ perform worse than a small SMP box just as easily as a non-tunedG application running on a NUMA system can run more poorly than a smallero SMP box.  D If the application is not tuned or designed properly for a large SMPE box, internal CPU cache thrashing can cause lower overall performanceh7 than a smaller SMP box can. This is not rocket science.   > So, the bottom line is that the application design needs to beC considered when deciding on a SMP or NUMA or cluster hardware basedn infrastructure.     But you knew this anyway, right?   Regardsm  
 Kerry Main Solutions Architectn Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicesp Voice: 613-592-4660V Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancys1 [mailto:Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com]=20i Sent: February 3, 2003 10:23 AMe To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com,C Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release fordE Marvel and Alpha Retain Trust and Alpha Retain Trust and Alpha Retaint Trust          Robert Deininger wrote:cH > In article <3E3E575E.5090004@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew.Harrison@Sun.COM   > wrote: >=20 >=20I >>>If these were VMS results, you should realize that VMS does not yet=20oI >>>know anything about "near" and "far" memory on Marvel systems.  And=20 H >>>AFAIK, VMS does not provide a way for applications to figure this out  1 >>>and optimize memory allocation within the app.r >>H >>Which is why the results were done as all big Alpha benchmarks have=20J >>been done since the intro of the GS160/320 with Tru64 which does know=20  >>about local and remote memory. >>2 >>The fact that OpenVMS doesn't apparently support1 >>this makes the performance numbers published byb1 >>HP such as they are even more irrelevent to the/ >>OpenVMS community. >=20 >=20B > I'll type slowly so you have a better chance of understanding... >=20 >=20H > VMS does not YET support NUMA-awareness on MARVEL systems.  On Marvel,  A > it was clear from the prototype days that NUMA-awareness has=20 H > negligible benefit for Marvel, at least up to 16P.  The extra work was  C > deferred until after first ship. In short, VMS on Marvel isn't=201+ > NUMA-aware because it doesn't need to be.s >=20  8 However HP use 3 actual benchmarks and one non benchmark@ to try to justify their claims of MARVEL performance domination.  D The I/O non benchmark we can safely ignore as overzealous marketing.( That leaves STREAMS, SPECint and SPECfp.  4 Whatever the actual reasons for leaving NUMA support6 out of OpenVMS for the 16 way system, the fact is thatC the STREAMS result and one of the key benchmark results designed torF support the MARVEL claims makes use of a NUMA optimisation on Tru64 to get good performance.-  5 So until NUMA support is added to OpenVMS this result: is irrelevant to OpenVMS users.g  G > VMS has supported NUMA-awareness for quite a while on GS320/160/80=20gF > systems.  For many workloads, it improves performance significantly.  G But not enough to stop people having to use Oracle Parallel Server in aOC box to get decent throughput. This was a recommendation made to onexD GS160 customer when they found that it was in fact slower than their GS140 which had fewer CPU's    Regards. Andrew HArrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:00:21 +0000-' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancylY Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha Reta-. Message-ID: <3E3EAE35.8020505@nospamn.sun.com>   Main, Kerry wrote: > Andrew, Andrew ..> >  > F >>>>But not enough to stop people having to use Oracle Parallel Server >>>CJ > in a box to get decent throughput. This was a recommendation made to oneF > GS160 customer when they found that it was in fact slower than their! > GS140 which had fewer CPU's<<<   > G > While I suspect this was before the better NUMA enhancements were put'G > into OpenVMS (around V7.3-1), the reality is that a large SMP box cansB > perform worse than a small SMP box just as easily as a non-tunedI > application running on a NUMA system can run more poorly than a smaller-
 > SMP box. >   7 It wasn't running OpenVMS it was running Tru64, howevera5 it was running Tru64 with the NUMA enhancements whicho2 I understand are in OpenVMS. They did make a small2 improvement but not enough to get beyond the GS140% performance hence the OPS suggestion.e    F > If the application is not tuned or designed properly for a large SMPG > box, internal CPU cache thrashing can cause lower overall performancea9 > than a smaller SMP box can. This is not rocket science.a >   6 Hum well cache thrashing may be an issue but there are2 lots of others when moving from small to large SMP0 systems. For one thing a small SMP system like a9 ES45/40 has very different memory latency charicteristics 1 when compared with a GS320, well most current SMP : systems small or large have very different characteristics when compared with a GS320.   9 You also need an OS and an application that will actuallyI" use more than one CPU effectively.  @ > So, the bottom line is that the application design needs to beE > considered when deciding on a SMP or NUMA or cluster hardware based  > infrastructure.f > 1 A bit too neat and also an incorrect distinction.u  + The GS320 is a SMP system it is also a NUMAr& system. They arn't mutually exclusive.  - The E10K is a SMP system and a UMAish system.r  * The 8400 is a SMP system and a UMA system.  / Most ISV's arn't interested in writing software7. to make use of NUMA features on a system. They0 write software that runs on SMP systems and hope, that the memory subsystem doesn't get in the way.  / If you research this properly you will probablym. find that only a minute subset of your OpenVMS+ or Tru64 ISV's actually tune their code forf the NUMA GS320.   - What may have confused you is that the way to ) make Very Non Uniform Memory systems likei4 the GS320/Sequent NUMA-Q perform is to run a cluster, aware version of the software on the system.  - This is however is a kludge and doesn't implys/ that the application vendor has provided a NUMAe# aware version of their application.o   Regardsl Andrew Harrisonn   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 11:40:24 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyc; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...n, Message-ID: <3E3E5528.40805@nospamn.sun.com>   David Froble wrote:t > John Smith wrote:e > 8 >> "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message: >> news:d7791aa1.0302011840.1a150a39@posting.google.com... >>: >>> well, I guess you can put a square peg in a round hole7 >>> after all says Terry on the inquirer ... click heret >>> , >>> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7551 >>>/ >> >>& >> Poor Terry. He just doesn't get it. >>G >> I don't think anyone here in c.o.v. doubted that OpenVMS Engineering:F >> could accomplish the task set before them. We merely questioned the >> choice of platform. >  >  > K > Regardless of the platform choice, the port to another architecture is a   > very good thing. >   
 Why exactly ?r  7 If Itanium struggles as many people on this group thinkc6 it will then all HP have done is spend a bit more than9 they needed to on OpenVMS development and a bit more thanl% they needed to on System development.i  : They will also have confused their ISV's and worried their, strategic customers for little or no return.    1 > 1) it shows that VMS is not DEC/VAX/Alpha only.e >   J > Regardless of how good IA-64 gets, unless Hammer fails (highly unlikely H > now), Intel will not be the volumn player in 64 bit land.  Seems that H > their desktop plans are 32 bit for the forseeable future.  So, it's a G > move from running on your own low volumn chip, to running on someone SF > else's low volumn chip.  Hope that person that was promised a $1000 * > IA-64 system by Capellas has a plan 'B'. >   C To be fair to Intel they are doing a lower cost Itanium, trouble is3D at >200 million transistors and >70 watts power consumption it isn'tF destined for the volume desktop, rack optimised server or blade server market.a   Regards  Andrew Harrisonr   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 07:28:59 -0600I- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)o; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...i3 Message-ID: <Hva6ZfXJJzv+@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  V In article <3E3E5528.40805@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes:  9 > If Itanium struggles as many people on this group think 8 > it will then all HP have done is spend a bit more than; > they needed to on OpenVMS development and a bit more than ' > they needed to on System development.  > < > They will also have confused their ISV's and worried their. > strategic customers for little or no return.  E Many people in this newsgroup feel that ISVs should not be so readilyuI confused and should pay attention to the VMS history of customers stayingr3 with a hardware platform for some time (e.g., VAX).   ? In case you did not read the VMS ISV words that HP sent to you,-> Andrew, they want you to maintain your current support for VMS/ on Alpha while you are also gearing up for IPF.:   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 19:19:19 -05002( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...n, Message-ID: <3E3DB587.4090205@tsoft-inc.com>   John Smith wrote:n  7 > "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message 9 > news:d7791aa1.0302011840.1a150a39@posting.google.com...  > 8 >>well, I guess you can put a square peg in a round hole5 >>after all says Terry on the inquirer ... click heren >>* >>http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7551 >> >  > % > Poor Terry. He just doesn't get it.  > F > I don't think anyone here in c.o.v. doubted that OpenVMS EngineeringE > could accomplish the task set before them. We merely questioned the  > choice of platform.n    N Regardless of the platform choice, the port to another architecture is a very  good thing.d  / 1) it shows that VMS is not DEC/VAX/Alpha only.t  P 2) in both the OS and the compilers there is very likely to be some development # that would make both more portable.l  M The doing of the port was by no means a 'sure thing'.  It wouldn't have been aQ technical problems that would have stopped it.  That the port has seemed to have 2M successfully run the gauntlet of Capallas/Winkler is a good thing.  I cannot dP imagine why they would refuse to spend the Intel money, unless they figured out P some way to channel the money elsewhere, but Intel isn't a bunch of idiots like A Capellas/Winkler, and that probably wasn't possible.  Good thing.   N Regardless of how good IA-64 gets, unless Hammer fails (highly unlikely now), N Intel will not be the volumn player in 64 bit land.  Seems that their desktop M plans are 32 bit for the forseeable future.  So, it's a move from running on aN your own low volumn chip, to running on someone else's low volumn chip.  Hope N that person that was promised a $1000 IA-64 system by Capellas has a plan 'B'.   Dave   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 05:57:18 -0800 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski); Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...i= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0302030557.7694b5a0@posting.google.com>e  \ David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message news:<3E3DB587.4090205@tsoft-inc.com>... > John Smith wrote:u > P > Regardless of how good IA-64 gets, unless Hammer fails (highly unlikely now), P > Intel will not be the volumn player in 64 bit land.  Seems that their desktop O > plans are 32 bit for the forseeable future.  So, it's a move from running on eP > your own low volumn chip, to running on someone else's low volumn chip.  Hope P > that person that was promised a $1000 IA-64 system by Capellas has a plan 'B'. >  > Dave  > don't be so sure ... their seems to be endless delays from amd; land, and if you haven't checked their financials and stockf= price lately, they may not last the price wars with Intel ...t< can you say bankruptcy ... another problem is who needs a 64< bit desktop?  not home users ... can you say low volume, low> price ... doesn't sound like a bright future for amd to me ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 13:54:24 +0000t' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancya; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ... . Message-ID: <3E3E7490.5030000@nospamn.sun.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:X > In article <3E3E5528.40805@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: >  > 9 >>If Itanium struggles as many people on this group thinkn8 >>it will then all HP have done is spend a bit more than; >>they needed to on OpenVMS development and a bit more thanp' >>they needed to on System development.t >>< >>They will also have confused their ISV's and worried their. >>strategic customers for little or no return. >  > G > Many people in this newsgroup feel that ISVs should not be so readily.K > confused and should pay attention to the VMS history of customers stayings5 > with a hardware platform for some time (e.g., VAX).a > A > In case you did not read the VMS ISV words that HP sent to you,l@ > Andrew, they want you to maintain your current support for VMS1 > on Alpha while you are also gearing up for IPF.I  0 Of course they do its the only strategy they can3 adopt given the decisions that they have made, that + doesn't detract from its inherant bogosity.s   Regardsz Andrew Harrisonm   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 09:59:58 -0800 ' From: icerq4a@spray.se (David Svensson)r; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ... < Message-ID: <734da31c.0302030959.75c0774@posting.google.com>  R Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote > E > To be fair to Intel they are doing a lower cost Itanium, trouble isgF > at >200 million transistors and >70 watts power consumption it isn'tH > destined for the volume desktop, rack optimised server or blade server	 > market.y > 	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrisonv  B As far as I know Deerfield is destined for rack and blade servers.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:14:01 -0500A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>r; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...c. Message-ID: <3e3eb16a$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messagef& news:3E3DB587.4090205@tsoft-inc.com... > John Smith wrote:  >  > >eI > Regardless of how good IA-64 gets, unless Hammer fails (highly unlikelyh now),l5 > Intel will not be the volumn player in 64 bit land.r  L Back that up.  AMD is bleeding red ink, they have no server vendor lined up,K and Hammer must still compete against IA32 in the volume space.  Nor is theeC current sample stuff faster than shipping Itanium2 systems (despiteuL erronious early benchmark scores for things like SAP).  So far, there hasn'tB been a convincing "volume" story for Hammer, unless it can competeF head-to-head against Intel IA32 on price/performance.  In the "server"K space, HP, SGI, and others will be shipping server systems... but I haven't-= heard who the Hammer 8-way mission critical server vendor is.t  I So I wouldn't say that Hammer failing is "highly unlikely".  I'd say thateK it's still a crap shoot.  Alpha didn't win in the market place, even thoughoF it was arguably superior.  Nor did Beta (much to my displeasure when I/ finally threw away my Betamax a few years ago).m   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:16:36 -0500A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>e; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ... . Message-ID: <3e3eb205$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  @ "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:nOl%9.205002  B > To my way of thinking, the IA-64 porting effort was more lateralH > effort rather than forward progress of the OS. (Yes Fred, I'm still at > it.) >,  K Oh, I agree.  For the short term, IA64 is a lateral move.  When we get intotC full production mode several years down the road, it will just be a1+ continuation of VMS - as Alpha was for VAX.o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:20:49 -0500A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>c; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...>. Message-ID: <3e3eb302$1_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>f9 wrote in message news:3E3E7490.5030000@nospamn.sun.com...d >p >u2 > Of course they do its the only strategy they can5 > adopt given the decisions that they have made, thatt- > doesn't detract from its inherant bogosity.u >b  D I'm gonna start a file of Andrew quotes to trot out when Sun finally abandons Sparc.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:34:50 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>; Subject: RE: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ... 0 Message-ID: <01C2CB6F.E85CCF00@sulfer.icius.com>  E Hear hear. It's not that I want them to stop doing the Itanic port, In want a hammer port /too/.    Shane    -----Original Message-----( From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com]' Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 8:58 AMF To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comm; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...B      5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messageO7 news:d7791aa1.0302011840.1a150a39@posting.google.com...t8 > well, I guess you can put a square peg in a round hole5 > after all says Terry on the inquirer ... click hered >e* > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7551    # Poor Terry. He just doesn't get it.   D I don't think anyone here in c.o.v. doubted that OpenVMS EngineeringC could accomplish the task set before them. We merely questioned thet choice of platform.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 09:29:28 -0800w+ From: freestyle_london@yahoo.co.uk (Andrew)i> Subject: URGENT: Intermittent response to display login prompt= Message-ID: <88f6adbc.0302030929.3b26c60b@posting.google.com>o   Hi.d  8 We are having a major problem with one of our VMS boxes.   Version of VMS 7.1-2 UCX 4.2    D Basically when we try to connect it seems to establish a connection.E But that I mean you get a cursor in the top right hand to the screen.o7 To demonstrate what I am saying hear try the following:e  = use Windows telnet to connect to a fake host. You will see and< hourglass appear. This is because no response has come back.D What we find is that when connecting to the fauly VMS box the cursorD appears. This means that a connection has been made. Infact there isF about a 40 second interval where we tried all machine within an officeF 10 PCs all sitting there with a cursor. Then **BANG** they all get the! login prompt at the same time !!!s  @ While the above was not connecting we also we tried a 'set host') command from another VMS box. It worked !c  < We could also ping with 0ms !!! While not getting the prompt    * Has anyone seem this before please help...  $ We have already tried the following:$ - Network sniffering / cisco support
 - DNS testingh   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:19:28 -0800) From: "Jim Geier" <jimgeier@jimgeier.com>   Subject: Very large disks on VMS3 Message-ID: <000301c2cbb0$caebaa40$6b3e11ac@jcgt23>.  H With the evolution towards larger and larger disks, and now with the EVAH moreso than its predecessors, it is possible to have VERY large disks onE a VMs system. Are there any problems or issues regarding how well VMSaH will handle disks that are 300, 400, 500 GB or even larger? For example,D how does VMS handle things like the free block list or cache tables?? Will these things get unmanageable  with extremely large disks?S  
 --jim geier--u   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 12:31:51 -0600"+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)S$ Subject: Re: Very large disks on VMS3 Message-ID: <xyAkTkMU8ZPs@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  _ In article <000301c2cbb0$caebaa40$6b3e11ac@jcgt23>, "Jim Geier" <jimgeier@jimgeier.com> writes:vJ > With the evolution towards larger and larger disks, and now with the EVAJ > moreso than its predecessors, it is possible to have VERY large disks onG > a VMs system. Are there any problems or issues regarding how well VMS J > will handle disks that are 300, 400, 500 GB or even larger? For example,F > how does VMS handle things like the free block list or cache tables?A > Will these things get unmanageable  with extremely large disks?h >   > 	Recent bitmap work in 7.2+ (check me for all details, I'm not: 	grinding it out looking for refs - top of head stuff) youB 	can get cluster size of 1 for disks up to 133 GByte (maybe 136?).  G 	With cluster factor calcs (back in the day) we would have to determinee> 	min cluster factor for disk size if we wanted to do something; 	other than defaults (and you can trudge through google for- 	the formula).  F 	Today with 7.2+ and cluster size of 3, perhaps you can do a 300 GByte 	drive.u  A 	But even if you can do it, I'm not sure about the wisdom as whenvB 	you calculate restores, you can see you could be done a very long2 	time doing a restore on a blown out raidset/disk.   				Roba   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 10:09:05 GMT 3 From: Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US>h% Subject: Re: VMS @25 CD now available 5 Message-ID: <3E3DCF48.3D63CDE9@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US>0   Sue Skonetski wrote: > B > Looks like I really messed up.  Folks told me that this could beK > distributed, so I did.  However you need to get an HP person to order theD > CD.n >  > sue3  6   Is the VAXbar mentioned at all?  If so, I should get a CD. :)   -- Vance Haemmerlec   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 12:31:55 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG% Subject: Re: VMS @25 CD now availablea0 Message-ID: <00A1AEDE.CF819047@SendSpamHere.ORG>  k In article <3E3DCF48.3D63CDE9@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US>, Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US> writes:u >Sue Skonetski wrote:u >> eC >> Looks like I really messed up.  Folks told me that this could beoL >> distributed, so I did.  However you need to get an HP person to order the >> CD. >> f >> sue >e7 >  Is the VAXbar mentioned at all?  If so, I should geta	 >a CD. :)    Vance, y  J If you should obtain a copy, please see what you can do to convert it fromJ the proprietary Micro$haft format into something that can be viewed on any platform -- perhaps, MPEG.  K This perpetual flippant attitude toward VMS and its users by pushing Micro-NI $haft down our throats at every possible turn is really causing me great e) doubt about its (VMS) current caretakers.h   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMa            U5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" .   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 16:14:19 +0000-( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>% Subject: Re: VMS @25 CD now availableK) Message-ID: <3E3E955B.1067B3DD@127.0.0.1>g  ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:s > m > In article <3E3DCF48.3D63CDE9@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US>, Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US> writes:  > >Sue Skonetski wrote:y > >>E > >> Looks like I really messed up.  Folks told me that this could belN > >> distributed, so I did.  However you need to get an HP person to order the > >> CD. > >> > >> sue > >i9 > >  Is the VAXbar mentioned at all?  If so, I should gets > >a CD. :)c >  > Vance, > L > If you should obtain a copy, please see what you can do to convert it fromL > the proprietary Micro$haft format into something that can be viewed on any > platform -- perhaps, MPEG. > M > This perpetual flippant attitude toward VMS and its users by pushing Micro-dJ > $haft down our throats at every possible turn is really causing me great+ > doubt about its (VMS) current caretakers.r  F MPEG converters from windoze formats are available, may have to get it; into AVI first, I expect there are converters, could all bee commercialware.r  G It doesn't worry me too much about the delivery of micro-centric media,rH doorstops are useful, but it doesn't bother me if I can run my favourite operating system on it.t   -- h? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesl nclews at csc dot comT   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:10:27 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>g Subject: Re: VMS on Itaniumw0 Message-ID: <6Lu%9.297$8i7.180@news.cpqcorp.net>  ; "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in messageg: news:20030201214819.82296.qmail@web20202.mail.yahoo.com...2 > I lost the contest.... per 15 days (14-FEB-2003)0 > By the way... LETS BUY HP ITANIUM SERVERS !!!! >t > $ > Does It will have LAN CONSOLES ??? >n >   J The management subsystem on the rx2600 (for example) can be assigned an IPJ address, and you can use a web browser to talk to the console.  Of course,+ in addition to the standard serial console.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 09:24:16 -0500y& From: Joshua Cope <Joshua.Cope@hp.com> Subject: Re: VMS on Itaniumt& Message-ID: <3E3E7B90.A527CF52@hp.com>   Fabio Cardoso wrote:$ > Does It will have LAN CONSOLES ???  L It depends on the box. The hp server rx2600, which many of us are using for I early boot testing,  has excellent remote console support via its remote m@ management card, including TELNET and web access to the console.     - Josh   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2003 10:02:18 -0600a- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)r Subject: Re: VMS on Itaniums3 Message-ID: <k+zQMimLlJtG@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  h In article <6Lu%9.297$8i7.180@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:  L > The management subsystem on the rx2600 (for example) can be assigned an IP@ > address, and you can use a web browser to talk to the console.  I Since you say "can be assigned", may I assume it also "can be unassigned"  to disable any such feature?   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:25:24 +0100 (MET)r9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>t Subject: Re: VMS on Itaniuml; Message-ID: <01KS0C1IJMZY9GVJIW@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>1  I > The management subsystem on the rx2600 (for example) can be assigned aniD > IP address, and you can use a web browser to talk to the console.   I Can you assign it an IP address without using the web browser?  (This is eI not a joke.  At home, I have the problem that a DSL router is accessible gH only via web browser.  Since it has a pre-assigned address on a network H other than the VMS machine I want to configure it with, I am having fun I learning about pseudointerfaces.  (Could it be that the documentation is oH in error here?  In other words, shouldn't /HOST specify an address, and D not a host name, when using SET INTERFACE to create an interface on  another network?)t  I As I said in another thread, I should take a vow never to buy a piece of  G hardware which doesn't have an MMJ I can plug a trusty VT into.  There iD are few things in life which come close to the pleasure of a serial  console.  9 > Of course, in addition to the standard serial console. h  - Thank God!  (Or should that be "Thank Ken!"?)y  H What will Itanium serial consoles look like?  Probably not DB25.  MMJ?  3 That would be nice.  Or some newfangled USB thingy?s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:06:47 +0100$ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> Subject: Re: VMS on Itaniume+ Message-ID: <00A1AF37.7B607E09.17@decus.de>a  < "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:   > [...]t >MJ > As I said in another thread, I should take a vow never to buy a piece ofG > hardware which doesn't have an MMJ I can plug a trusty VT into. ThereyE > are few things in life which come close to the pleasure of a serial-
 > console. > : > > Of course, in addition to the standard serial console. >U/ > Thank God!  (Or should that be "Thank Ken!"?)l >tG > What will Itanium serial consoles look like?  Probably not DB25. MMJ?55 > That would be nice.  Or some newfangled USB thingy?e  D A "serial interface" -- as used in real "industry standard" devices,E not ones claimed to be a "standard" by specific vendors -- usually ishF a RS-232(-C) or RS-422 interface using a DB9 or DB15 connector. RS-4232 and MMJ are specific to DEC/Q/HP as far as I know.   Michaelt   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:05:06 -0500A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>s Subject: Re: VMS on Itanium , Message-ID: <3e3eaf53_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  
 Of course.  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:k+zQMimLlJtG@eisner.encompasserve.org...tD > In article <6Lu%9.297$8i7.180@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge"% <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:c >sK > > The management subsystem on the rx2600 (for example) can be assigned an  IPB > > address, and you can use a web browser to talk to the console. >oK > Since you say "can be assigned", may I assume it also "can be unassigned"e > to disable any such feature?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:10:33 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>- Subject: RE: VMS on Itaniuma9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEIHGIAA.tom@kednos.com>   J Presumably this will using a non-routable ip.  A lot of routers, firewallsK and the like have this capability and I rather like it, but once configuredoK the box will most likely have another IP assigned, maybe even routable one.m  I How then does one access the console, and if through a browser isn't this  a big security risk?       >-----Original Message-----bG >From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com]o) >Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 10:05 AMt >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >Subject: Re: VMS on Itanium >> >> >Of course.t >r; >"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in messagen. >news:k+zQMimLlJtG@eisner.encompasserve.org...E >> In article <6Lu%9.297$8i7.180@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" & ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: >>L >> > The management subsystem on the rx2600 (for example) can be assigned an >IPeC >> > address, and you can use a web browser to talk to the console.a >>L >> Since you say "can be assigned", may I assume it also "can be unassigned" >> to disable any such feature?r >, >d >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.-; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).oA >Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003o >  ---n& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:44:28 -0500A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>3 Subject: Re: VMS on Itaniumn. Message-ID: <3e3eb88d$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  I Telnet, or a browser, or turn them off (or disconnect the management LAN)cL and use the serial port.  I believe that the management console stuff can beI password protected.  But any time you connect any thing to a network - indD particular the internet - you have some security concerns you should address.    . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEIHGIAA.tom@kednos.com...aL > Presumably this will using a non-routable ip.  A lot of routers, firewallsB > and the like have this capability and I rather like it, but once
 configuredH > the box will most likely have another IP assigned, maybe even routable one. > K > How then does one access the console, and if through a browser isn't this- > a big security risk? >b >0 >0 > >-----Original Message-----yI > >From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com]r+ > >Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 10:05 AMg > >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >Subject: Re: VMS on Itanium > >p > >.
 > >Of course.  > >w= > >"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in messageP0 > >news:k+zQMimLlJtG@eisner.encompasserve.org...G > >> In article <6Lu%9.297$8i7.180@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge"a( > ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: > >>K > >> > The management subsystem on the rx2600 (for example) can be assigneda an > >IPrE > >> > address, and you can use a web browser to talk to the console.o > >>B > >> Since you say "can be assigned", may I assume it also "can be unassigned"u! > >> to disable any such feature?  > >y > >  > >---) > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.u= > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).hC > >Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003b > >n > ---i( > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.< > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B > Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003 >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:52:11 -0500# From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov>C' Subject: RE: VMS on Itanium - bugcheck?o: Message-ID: <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDKENGCKAA.dallen@nist.gov>  D 	Just curious: how long after the boot till the crash ;-) Or did you7 	do an orderly shutdown? Or perhaps it's still running?2   	Dan   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 22:41:05 GMTe1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>d" Subject: Re: VMS source listings ?2 Message-ID: <3E3D9D44.579AAFF9@firstdbasource.com>  
 Dan wrote: <snip> >  > oh for gods sakes.H > this is EXACTLY what was wrong with VMS 28 years ago, and it's EXACTLY% > what is still wrong with VMS today.h > G > the overstuffed, pigheaded, pompous, self-righteous, holier than thour  > snobbish, stuck-up, elitism... > F > I despise that crap. and its entirely what the open-source community > is designed to get rid of. >  <snip> > that's dumb, but whatever. >  > Dan.      H hmmmmm.. now THAT'S the attitude to have with someone you are trying get0 something from...  some people's kids... sheesh!   -- a Regards,  6 Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 19847                           Registered Linux User #261163b   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:06:09 GMTt+ From: Andy Stoffel <a.stoffel@adelphia.net>e9 Subject: [Q] AUTOGEN error in VMS 7.3 - is this just me ?s: Message-ID: <5kx%9.614$jR3.556239@news1.news.adelphia.net>  D A simple question... is there a "bug" in the TESTFILES phase in the 4 version of SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN.COM in VMS 7.3/Alpha ?  < I got this error this morning running it on my home machine:  > %DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and  spelling
  \SYS$OUTPUT\ C %AUTOGEN-I-ERROR, TESTFILES phase was aborted due to an unexpected h error. %SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort  9 which I traced to a line in AUTOGEN.COM that looked like:        	$sys$output ""    and was easily fixed...t  D AUTOGEN isn't something I would ever modify and I don't recall ever D seeing this error before when running AUTOGEN on my system. (And no ' one else has access to this machine...)e  @ Is there some patch that replaced AUTOGEN in 7.3 with a version  with this "bug" ?   D I didn't find a mention in com.os.vms using a Google search.... but  maybe I just missed it.e   Just wondering.M   -Andy-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 12:40:59 -0500 & From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>= Subject: Re: [Q] AUTOGEN error in VMS 7.3 - is this just me ?r8 Message-ID: <j2at3vclg5eirbl1mkm9h6p81deqgmsg92@4ax.com>  N On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:06:09 GMT, Andy Stoffel <a.stoffel@adelphia.net> wrote:  E >A simple question... is there a "bug" in the TESTFILES phase in the r5 >version of SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN.COM in VMS 7.3/Alpha ?   M I see the same thing in SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN.COM in both OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 andcP V7.3-1. I've not heard it mentioned before as a problem. I do not see this error  in the VAX V7.3 version, either.I -------------------------------------------------------------------------uI David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot comnI Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)SI -------------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:49:32 -0000* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>= Subject: Re: [Q] AUTOGEN error in VMS 7.3 - is this just me ? , Message-ID: <b1ma3d$114q@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  8 "Andy Stoffel" <a.stoffel@adelphia.net> wrote in message4 news:5kx%9.614$jR3.556239@news1.news.adelphia.net...E > A simple question... is there a "bug" in the TESTFILES phase in theg6 > version of SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN.COM in VMS 7.3/Alpha ?  N Sure looks like it. VMS 7.3-1 too. It only kicks in when you run out of space,+ and explicitly specify TESTFILES (I think).e   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.068 ************************