0 INFO-VAX	Wed, 05 Feb 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 72      Contents: a PDP-11 question  Re: And the winner is? Re: And the winner is? RE: And the winner is? Re: Batch job log spec Re: Batch job log spec Re: Batch job log spec Re: Batch job log spec5 Buying the IDSM outside the US (was: Frmr VMS eng...)  Re: Columbia RE: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: Columbia- Re: Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King?  Re: CTERM weirdness on VAX Re: dynamic DNS  RE: E*trade replacing VMS? RE: E*trade replacing VMS? RE: E*trade replacing VMS? Re: E*trade replacing VMS? Re: E*trade replacing VMS? Re: E*trade replacing VMS?4 Engineering trends (Was: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner...)	 Re: fonts , Re: Frmr VMS eng. (Greg Robert) seeking work, Re: Frmr VMS eng. (Greg Robert) seeking work, Re: Frmr VMS eng. (Greg Robert) seeking workM Re: Itanium EFI Console (was: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan  31)  Link to Python kit for VMS ?  Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?  Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?  Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?  Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?  Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?  Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?  Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?  Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ? Re: Newbie @ OpenVMS- Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 A Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel 8 Re: python - was Re: Status of MySQL and Postgres ports?0 Re: Security threats set to wreck havoc soon ...0 Re: Security threats set to wreck havoc soon ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...2 RE: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ... Space Shuttle software' Re: Status of MySQL and Postgres ports?  Re: TCP IP PAK Re: TCP IP PAK@ Re: TCP/IP Services v5.3 - how to increase the number of "mbufs") Telnet  to a BIND Sever & Load Balancing.  Re: Very large disks on VMS  Re: Very large disks on VMS  Re: VMS on Itanium - bugcheck? Re: VMS on Itanium - bugcheck? Re: VMS on Itanium - bugcheck? Re: VMS on Itanium - bugcheck? Re: VMS on Itanium - bugcheck? Re: VMS source listings ?  Re: VMS source listings ?  Re: VMS source listings ?  Re: VMS source listings ?  Re: VMS source listings ?  Re: VMS source listings ?  Re: VMS source listings ?  Re: VMS source listings ?  Re: [OT]Re:Columbia  Re: [OT]Re:Columbia  Re: [OT]Re:Columbia  Re: [OT]Re:Columbia  Re: [OT]Re:Columbia  Re: [OT]Re:Columbia  Re: [OT]Re:Columbia  Re: [OT]Re:Columbia  Re: [OT]Re:Columbia   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 13:36:11 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: a PDP-11 question6 Message-ID: <b1r40b$15se2i$3@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  E Can anyone here point me a any published information on the structure " an internals for RT-11 and RSTS/E?  D This could be a good chance to clear some space on your bookshelf ifG you have a book on the subject you haven't even opened in a decade. :-)   F I have included comp.os.vms here because while not related many of theE people there can trace their experience back to pre-VAX days as well.    Any help greatly appreciated.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 07:02:19 +0000 (UTC)3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com>  Subject: Re: And the winner is? / Message-ID: <b1qctq$q28$1@venus.btinternet.com>    I'm gutted!   2 Is there anyway to find out what my own guess was?   Regards Richard Maher   < Sue Skonetski <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> wrote in message7 news:857e9e41.0302041837.4559f504@posting.google.com... A > I will be announcing all the winners tomorrow.  In case you are G > wondering we did have a person guess a time of 3:30 (he had submitted F > the time on Jan 10th).  We had nine people pick the correct day.  OfF > the nine people 2 were from outside the us (Switzerland and Israel). > F > The winners will be individually contacted via email.  I am planningD > on a golf shirt with their name on it (probably a Greg Norman golfF > shirt because his logo is a shark).  And I think "OpenVMS first Boot* > 1/31/2003" but I am open to suggestions. > B > In case you are wondering these shirts are specifically for this
 > contest. > , > Hope this answers a few of your questions. > A > If the folks were here you can bet I would give them a big hug.  >  > Warm Regards as always,  >  > sue  > ) > norm.raphael@metso.com wrote in message ; news:<OF10A10D61.AC19EC09-ON85256CC3.0068CD0C@metso.com>... H > > Golf Shirts are short sleeve, no pocket, not tight at the armpit (no place  > > for a pocket protector). > > L > > From:  "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> on 02/04/2003 01:48 PM > > C > > Please respond to "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com>  > >   > > To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > cc:  > > & > > Subject:    Re: And the winner is? > >  > >  > > Hi,  > > H > > For the 2nd time I give notice that (I'm pretty sure?) I was closer! > > . > > And is Golf shirt American for Polo shirt? > > 8 > > Regards Richard Maher (Who would much prefer a DS10) > > 3 > > Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> wrote in message ) > > news:00A1B000.74311210.17@decus.de... 1 > > > "Alan Frisbie" <Abuse@NelsonUSA.com> wrote:  > > > F > > > > I was off (early) by five hours and six minutes, and I haven'tF > > > > seen anyone claim a closer time.   My guess was January 31, at 20:37.C > > > > Now I wonder what the "fabulous OpenVMS gift" is?   Dare we 
 speculate? > > > K > > > An "OpenVMS golf shirt". And apparently the obligation to participate # > > > in advertising and promotion.  > > > = > > > It is still mentioned at the "boot contest rules" page:  > > > E > > > http://h18003.www1.hp.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/contest_rules.html  > > >  > > >  > > > <start quote>  > > >  > > > *Official Rules *  > > >  > > > [...]  > > > J > > > *6. AWARDS:* [Within ten (10) days after the first "boot" of OpenVMS onK > > > an Itanium? -based system (i.e. OpenVMS commences running and permits  a L > > > user to log on and conduct a directory command without error), HP willL > > > determine the five (5) eligible participants who selected the date andE > > > time (U.S. Eastern Standard Time) closest to such first boot of  OpenVMS J > > > on an Itanium?-based system, and each of these five (5) participantsL > > > will be awarded one OpenVMS golf shirt, each with an approximate value > > > of $25. [...]  > > >  > > > [...]  > > >  > > > *8. OTHER CONSIDERATIONS* C > > > a. If a prize is returned as undeliverable, the prize will be 	 forfeited C > > > and an alternate winner will be selected in a random drawing. G > > > b. By accepting an award, a participant agrees that HP, and those  acting6 > > > under its authority, may use participant's name,A > > > picture/portrait/likeness and/or voice, for advertising and  promotional G > > > purposes without further consideration, unless prohibited by law.  > > >  > > > [...]  > > > C > > > d. Winners may be required to sign and return an affidavit of K > > > eligibility and liability/publicity release (except where prohibited) J > > > within 21 days. Failure to comply with this condition will result inG > > > forfeiture of prize and an alternate winner will be selected in a  randomI > > > drawing. This drawing will take place no earlier than three and one  halfB > > > months after the unclaimed prize winner had been determined. > > >  > > > <end quote>  > > > 
 > > > Michael    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 21:32:30 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: And the winner is? H Message-ID: <OjW%9.269742$pDv.6964@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ) news:3E40117F.1E0F99A4@vl.videotron.ca...  > Michael Unger wrote:= > > An "OpenVMS golf shirt". And apparently the obligation to  participate ! > > in advertising and promotion.  > E > Since advertising and promotion are words never used in the context 
 of VMS, itF > is a safe bet that HP won't do any advertising and promotion of this contest  > because it is VMS related.  ; It probably only says 'OpenVMS' on the tag with the washing C instructions. That would be in keeping with the ChumPHaq history of  keeping VMS hidden.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:27:25 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> Subject: RE: And the winner is? 0 Message-ID: <01C2CD01.426DF900@sulfer.icius.com>  C Now now, John, this is Sue who's organizing this. She's the one who F actually gives a (ahem) monkeys, remember? She wouldn't do that to us.   Shane    -----Original Message-----( From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com]= "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ) news:3E40117F.1E0F99A4@vl.videotron.ca...  > Michael Unger wrote:= > > An "OpenVMS golf shirt". And apparently the obligation to  participate ! > > in advertising and promotion.  > E > Since advertising and promotion are words never used in the context 
 of VMS, itF > is a safe bet that HP won't do any advertising and promotion of this contest  > because it is VMS related.  ; It probably only says 'OpenVMS' on the tag with the washing C instructions. That would be in keeping with the ChumPHaq history of  keeping VMS hidden.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 07:28:08 -0600  From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Batch job log spec 3 Message-ID: <rw2PRwpsT8Zy@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <4FEB200318563628@gerg.tamu.edu>, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:$ > briggs@encompasserve.org writes...Y > }In article <3FEB200321585022@gerg.tamu.edu>, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes: ' > }> briggs@encompasserve.org writes... ? > }> }3.  LOG file not on user's home disk.  You won't find it.  > }>  O > }> The above was for the case where the f$getqui request for the log filespec Q > }> fails. You're supposed to try that first, and then this only if that doesn't N > }> give you a filespec. When does that fail? When the /LOG qualifier was notR > }> present on the SUBMIT command used to submit the job. Under these conditions,J > }> the log file is placed in the sys$login directory. That is why I used, > }> sys$login in the show dev/file command. > } F > }In that case, I guess I need to add the complaint that the proposedC > }technique can't get the version information right in the case of A > }simultaneously running batch jobs with the same log file name.  > E > Yes it will. You are searching the SHOW DEV/FILE output for the PID F > of the process. The only files that will be listed are the ones thatG > the process has open, thus you will certainly get the correct version J > of the file since the other version are held open by processes with PIDs: > for which you were throeing away the data in the search.  D You said that we only use SHOW DEV/FILE when F$GETQUI returns a null LOG_SPECIFICATION.  E > }> }5.  Directory alias.  The file name you get will be obtained by E > }> }traversing the directory backlink chain.  The result may not be # > }> }a correct file specification.  > }>  I > }> I don't see how this is possible. It may not be the prefered form of G > }> the filespec (e.g. with a rooted logical as the base), but it will G > }> point to the file when prepended with the actual device name, will 8 > }> it not? If not, when will it fail? Give an example. > } F > }Have you ever done $ SHOW DEV /FILES on a system disk with improper > }directory backlinks?  > $ > Way back about 12 or 14 years ago. [snip]L > This could be a problem if you are using a VAX that still has this problem- > more than a decade after it was identified.   D Indeed, that's the most common situation in which this problem would@ be a possibility.  And I agree, it's a reasonably unlikely case.  J > }> }6.  Unsupported interface.  You're parsing file names out of a humanK > }> }readable display.  Line wrap, truncation or any change in the display G > }> }format from one release to the next and you could wind up in deep  > }> }trouble. > } K > }> That is true. But it has been the same for a long time and it probably H > }> won't change. If it does, it breaks this. If you use extremely longF > }> filenames or your login directory is very deep in a chain of longH > }> directory names you might exceed the buffer length and get an error" > }> instead of a result. Oh well. > } , > }"Oh well" is not exactly a valid defense. > F > Who needs a defense? If it breaks, it breaks. Oh well. (If they wereK > to change what is returned by the routines your code uses to get the info C > or the way you call them, your program would break too. Oh well.)   @ If your routine depends on documented interface details then you@ can place a certain amount of reliance on the stability of thoseA details.  And you have a good chance of getting notice of changes  in the O/S release notes.   B If your routine depends on undocumented interface details then you> have much less assurance that those details will be stable and< much less assurance that any changes will be brought to your attention in the release notes.   ? If your routine depends on undocumented interface details whose ? behavior you haven't tested then you should probably test those  details.  A I tested it just now.  The line didn't wrap and the file name was ; not truncated.  This was with a ~200 character file spec.     @ And I tested further.  My recollection was that you couldn't use< F$EXTRACT to obtains substrings from within a >256 characterE DCL symbol.  But it appears that you can now (OpenVMS 7.2-1 on Alpha)   E So there are no obvious problems with the parsing process for current  releases of VMS anyway.   I > It's simply a statement of how unimportant it is. If it breaks due to a H > change in formating, you just look at the new output format and changeJ > the parsing. It shouldn't take more than a few minutes. If it breaks dueF > to wraping/truncating/buffer size being exceeded, well then you have9 > a real problem and may want to rethink the whole thing.    Fair enough.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 09:01:07 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: Batch job log spec = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302050901.61c656f6@posting.google.com>   Y briggs@encompasserve.org wrote in message news:<0RI7zuVr3iB5@eisner.encompasserve.org>... k > In article <AHEOIHOHCIGKFKMFAFLJOECEJFAA.xbk15@dial.pipex.com>, "Tim Pass" <xbk15@dial.pipex.com> writes:  > > Try this, works for me...  > > ) > > $  ON WARNING THEN GOTO ERROR_HANDLER  > > $! ...   > > $!    ... other code ...  
 > > $! ... > > $ERROR_HANDLER:!'f$veri(0)) > > $ if f$mode() .nes. "BATCH" then EXIT L > > $  THIS_FILE = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_FILE","FILE_SPECIFICATION",,"THIS_JOB") > > $  LOGFILE = -M > >        F$PARSE(F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_JOB","LOG_SPECIFICATION",,"THIS_JOB"), - I > >        "SYS$LOGIN:''F$PARSE(THIS_FILE,,,"NAME")'.LOG",,,"NO_CONCEAL")  > 3 > There are cases in which this construction fails.  > D > The default log file specification is taken (in part) from the jobC > name which is, in turn, defaulted from the first input file name. C > In the case of a batch job submitted with /NAME=xxx, the two need B > not match.  I'm not sure of the behavior in an environment whereA > extended length (>39 characters) or extended character set file  > names are used.  > ? > Note that if you choose to default from "JOB_NAME" instead of ? > the file name component of "FILE_SPECIFICATION" then you have ? > another problem.  Not all valid JOB_NAME characters are valid B > file specification characters.  So ideally you'd need to reverseD > engineer the way in which the VMS queue manager converts JOB_NAMES > to file specifications.    The code snippet  > $    JOB_NAME = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_JOB","JOB_NAME",,"THIS_JOB")G $    LOG_SPEC = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_JOB","LOG_SPECIFICATION",,"THIS_JOB") 3 $    LOG_FILE = F$PARSE(LOG_SPEC,JOB_NAME,".LOG;")    F works quite well, even if there are spaces in the name. If you specifyE a job name with illegal non-space file-spec characters, and you don't D override that with an explicit legal filename in /LOG=log_spec, then; the job won't or if it does run, there won't be a log file.   E Actually, on second thought, you might want to make the third line of  the code snippet above  < $    LOG_FILE = F$PARSE(LOG_SPEC,JOB_NAME,"SYS$LOGIN:.LOG")   @ > You can also get into grief if multiple batch jobs are running > simultaneously.   % By getting the process pid and using    F $ SEARCH 'OPENFILES_TMPFILE' " ''PROCESS_PID' ",'LOG_FILE' -/MATCH=AND /OUTPUT='PROCESS_PID_TMPFILE'   E you will get the right file. (Yes, OPENFILES_TMPFILE is the output of < a SHOW DEVICES/FILES with F$PARSE(LOGFILE,,,"DEVICE") as its
 argument.)  B > And you can get into grief if you submit a multi-file batch job. > e.g. >  > 	$ submit this, that > E > In THAT.COM, the computed log file specification will be incorrect.   F I tried this with my version and it works okay. But you're right about+ the version quoted at the top of this post.   C > Yes, I'm being quite picky here.  The approach you gave is likely @ > to give very good service in a wide range of environments.  ItH > is very close to the best that can be done with the F$GETQUI approach.  D You're right to be picky. The macro you posted is the best way to goD from a technical standpoint. But with careful attention to detail, a DCL version isn't all that bad.   < I did find a flaw with my own code: rooted devices, such as   = $ DEFINE ROOTED_DEVICE DISK$DATA1:[FELDMAN.] /TRANS=CONCEALED   5 will foil it. I haven't tried to fix it yet, though.     > 	John Briggs   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 09:03:59 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: Batch job log spec = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302050903.171e8037@posting.google.com>   Y briggs@encompasserve.org wrote in message news:<tCelwrTHtdZV@eisner.encompasserve.org>... X > In article <3FEB200321585022@gerg.tamu.edu>, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:& > > briggs@encompasserve.org writes... [...] D > > }5.  Directory alias.  The file name you get will be obtained byD > > }traversing the directory backlink chain.  The result may not be" > > }a correct file specification. > > H > > I don't see how this is possible. It may not be the prefered form ofF > > the filespec (e.g. with a rooted logical as the base), but it willF > > point to the file when prepended with the actual device name, will7 > > it not? If not, when will it fail? Give an example.  > E > Have you ever done $ SHOW DEV /FILES on a system disk with improper  > directory backlinks? >  > [SYSCOMMON.SYSEXE]SYS.EXE  > G > If the file header for SYSCOMMON.DIR has a file name of SYSCOMMON.DIR C > but its directory backlink points to [000000]000000.DIR where the ? > directory entry has a name of V4COMMON.DIR then you will have   > a reverse lookup file name of: >  > 	[SYSCOMMON.subdir]file.exe  > ) > and valid forward lookup file names of:  >  > 	[V4COMMON.subdir]file.exe% > and	[SYSn.SYSCOMMON.subdir]file.exe   E Well, the DCL version would still be no worse than SHOW DEVICES/FILES B itself and also no worse than SHOW ENTRY/FULL and SHOW QUEUE/FULL.   [...]    Disclaimer: JMHO   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 11:14:00 -0600  From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Batch job log spec 3 Message-ID: <gmWKVuMDrJq5@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <b096a4ee.0302050901.61c656f6@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > The code snippet > @ > $    JOB_NAME = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_JOB","JOB_NAME",,"THIS_JOB")I > $    LOG_SPEC = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_JOB","LOG_SPECIFICATION",,"THIS_JOB") 5 > $    LOG_FILE = F$PARSE(LOG_SPEC,JOB_NAME,".LOG;")   > H > works quite well, even if there are spaces in the name. If you specifyG > a job name with illegal non-space file-spec characters, and you don't F > override that with an explicit legal filename in /LOG=log_spec, then= > the job won't or if it does run, there won't be a log file.   0 $ submit /keep /noprint test.com /name="HEY YOU"B Job HEY YOU (queue ALPHA_BATCH, entry 1996) started on ALPHA_BATCH
 $ dir hey*   Directory DISK1420:[VAXS09]    HEYYOU.LOG;1           Total of 1 file. $ type heyyou.log O $ write sys$output f$getqui ( "DISPLAY_FILE", "FILE_SPECIFICATION",,"THIS_JOB")  _DSA1420:[VAXS09]TEST.COM;192 O $ write sys$output f$getqui ( "DISPLAY_ENTRY", "LOG_SPECIFICATION",,"THIS_JOB")  DSA1420:[VAXS09]HEYYOU.LOG;  $ exit8   VAXS09       job terminated at  5-FEB-2003 12:10:11.90  D Looks like that case does indeed get covered.  Though not in exactly& the manner that either of us expected.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 05:31:05 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) > Subject: Buying the IDSM outside the US (was: Frmr VMS eng...)3 Message-ID: <Q6mxP59D$vGn@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C260E01C8F@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>, Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com> writes:N > Say, why not write a book on VMS internals (I know that's been done already,  > but can't be bought in India)?  C I would suggest trying a mailorder US bookseller (possibly even the E publisher).  One does not find the IDSM in most US bookstores either.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:54:48 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Columbia 2 Message-ID: <vTWdna5sbNIYkd2jXTWcpg@metrocast.net>  8 "David Webb" <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message% news:b1ok1i$omv$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk... 5 > In article <y6orHIJfXsmR@eisner.encompasserve.org>, = koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: A > >In article <INicnXPA7Nyue6OjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"   <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >>
 > >>   TheF > >>>    amount of energy needed to change from an easterly orbit to aI > >>>    westerly orbit cannot be less than the amount needed to de-orbit  and  > >>>    relaunch. > >>J > >> You can't prove that without evaluating the amount of energy required and K > >> comparing it with that required for a return (small) plus a subsequent  > >> Westerly launch (large).  > > H > >   Air resistance is a very small factor.  In fact what I sited aboutJ > >   the change in paths is a principle of physics.  If you don't want to$ > >   take my expertise, ask Newton. > > F > Yes in theory but you are trading gravitational potential energy for kinetic 	 > energy. L > The only problem is that in a real deorbit and relaunch you throw away theL > kinetic energy you gain during the descent (you don't really want to crash intoL > the ground at thousands of miles an hour do you ?). This boosts the energyL > required for such a strategy to rather more than that strictly required toL > switch from a easterly orbit to a westerly orbit. If the space-shuttle was a I > rubber-ball and could reuse that kinetic energy then yes I believe your  > statement would be correct.   I That's another way of looking at it.  But it still boils down to the fact J that unless you know what fraction of the launch energy is expended simplyJ fighting gravity it's always possible for the contention to be wrong.  ForK example, if the shuttle provided only 1% more thrust than its launch weight J (though of course it would likely be impossible with current technology toE achieve orbit at all under those conditions), it would waste the vast K majority of its fuel doing nothing but balancing itself on its tail against ; gravity while achieving its first few hundred mph of speed.   J If I indeed could ask Newton, he'd likely respond that Bob had applied hisK expertise without bothering to ascertain whether it fitted the system under  consideration.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Feb 2003 15:36:36 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: RE: Columbia 3 Message-ID: <NUVvQTgeodgx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <01C2CC3E.0AA06E40@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes: E > That sounds similar to a design I've seen on television a couple of H > times, NASA were having some large aerospace company try to design it.H > It was going to require three different types of engine including jetsJ > to get up to speed, then scramjets when the airflow was strong enough. IC > forget what the third engine was, possibly rocket for outside the G > atmosphere? The artist's impression looked like it was a lifting body F > rather than having true wings. I think it was called the SSO, SingleH > Stage to Orbit. They said it was going to be a massive design problem,J > and require several new technologies to be created for it to work. Sorry- > if my flaky memory has mangled any of that.   G   It sounds like you'r descibing the X-33, which used the new aerospike F   engine.  The necessary materials technology for the fuel tank didn'tF   emerge on time, the project was canceled, and recently the prototype   began to be disassmbled.  B   IMHO they could have had a new 2 stage orbiter by just adding an   external booster.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 07:11:59 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: Columbia = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302050711.7d39f597@posting.google.com>   o cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius) wrote in message news:<DfnNHp3h1W2T@eisner.encompasserve.org>... p > In article <b096a4ee.0302030740.5acc39a3@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:s > > cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius) wrote in message news:<9eMZbWLEBPPK@eisner.encompasserve.org>... M > >> I thought about that as well and almost included it in my post about the J > >> impulse required for an orbital change but wasn't sure it would work,J > >> especially since I initially only thought of effecting the change viaJ > >> a downward thrust to force the path down towards earth and thus raiseH > >> it at some later point in the orbit.  Making the change by applyingM > >> forward thrust may work better - after all, applying force perpendicular J > >> to the motion vector adds no net orbital energy but instead puts 100%M > >> of its energy into making gas molecules fly at high speed through space.  > > J > > A downward thrust would be a bad idea. You'd probably gain very little > E > Let me get this straight.  I posted that I had shown some restraint E > in not posting an idea similar to Mr. Fine's because I decided that G > I had not thought it through, and you're going to take me to task for  > even having had the idea?   F No sir. I was simply saying that I thought the *downward thrust* was aE bad idea. I could well be wrong, but I was simply stating my opinion. D I didn't mention you at all. Yes, I replied to your post, but I have to reply to *someone's* post.   F Actually, it was *you*, not Mr. Fine, who suggested a downward thrust.  F Moreover, I misunderstood you the first time. When you wrote "downwardB thrust", I thought you meant aiming the expelled propellant at theD earth. Upon re-reading it, I see you said/meant just the opposite! I$ think that that, too, wouldn't work.  J > > Moving around in space requires careful planning, calculation, and, ofI > > course, timing. It's not like in Star Wars where the spacecraft [...]  > C > Spare me the lecture.  I first learned the basic idea of equating ? > G M m / r^2 to m v^2 / r nearly 40 years ago to determine the : > parameters of a circular orbit and have a few courses in> > classical mechanics and differential equations under my belt= > since then.  I can assure you I don't have a Star Wars view  > of orbital mechanics.    OK, but many people do.   F > > AFAIK, all delta-v's are done thrusting in the forward or backward? > > direction which I think is the most efficient way to do it.  > B > Except, as I mentioned in my post giving an equation for impulse@ > required for an orbit correction, if you want to change courseD > without a corresponding change in speed.  That's what acceleration' > perpendicular to motion is all about.   F You can easily achieve a larger apogee by simply increasing your speedE at perigee by firing tangent to the orbit. The perigee remains pretty $ much the same after such a maneuver.  J > > Space travel is extremely dangerous, difficult, and expensive. Hazards > A > We're all aware of the dangers of space flight. That's why this > > thread exists.  Some of us are aware that it takes a certain< > degree of sophistication to analyze orbital maneuvers.  My< > experience with c.o.vms is that there are people here with> > the requisite level of understanding, but clearly most of us? > are just interested parties willing to allow others to do the  > calculations.   E Well, some posters in this thread aren't [aware of the dangers...]. I D was talking more to the group than to you in particular and to those$ who are too quick to criticize NASA.  E > > abound. Radiation, vacuum, space junk, the need for complete life H > > support, orbital speed of approx. 18000 miles per hour (5 mi./sec.),J > > space junk in orbit, meteoroids, the dangers of launch, the dangers ofJ > > reentry, the chances of explosions (remember Appolo 13), .... It is toE > > NASA's credit that there haven't been even more disasters. And we F > > still don't know the cause of this disaster. Maybe the shuttle ranF > > into a piece of space junk. Maybe it was the foam that fell off atJ > > launch time. Maybe not. Maybe something entirely else. We'll just have6 > > to wait and see and hope the puzzle can be solved. > : > May I suggest that when that mental swamp you seem to be= > mired in is drained and all those alligators have slithered : > away you might be in a better position to understand the@ > terrain.  The two-body problem has been solved for two hundred? > years or more.  It's just a matter of plugging in the numbers 9 > in order to determine the shape of the orbit.  Position A > versus time is more complex, but, first, we don't need it here,   F You *do* need it here if people are going to suggest better ways to do! it and/or criticize NASA efforts.   ? > and, second, it is easily calculated by numerical integration 3 > or through the use of elliptic sines and cosines.   C I was talking about space travel in general. OK. You have an orbit. ? That's 1% of the job done. You have to get in orbit. You need a E spacecraft, .... You need a hell of a lot more than an orbit. Knowing D the orbit is not nearly enough. NASA knew the orbit of Columbia, but something else went wrong.  ? > I think Mr. Fine's approach is quite intriguing. It is a fact E > that no net energy is involved in a change of orbital inclination.  @ > It's just that you need to change the direction of the angular> > momentum vector, and without something to push against, that: > involves expelling a propellant through a rocket nozzle.: > His approach is to apply force when the radius vector is7 > large so that the torque and therefore the net change : > in angular momentum is correspondingly increased.  Now I< > believe Bob Koehler when he states that the shuttle cannot? > make a significant change in orbital inclination, but I would A > also like to understand the issues associated with the proposed > > maneuver if only to improve my knowledge of the physics that > is involved.  D Fine, but it was *you* who added something about downward thrust. By@ firing the engines opposite to the direction of the spacecraft'sC velocity (tangential to the circular orbit), you increase speed and D that point in space becomes the perigee of a new obrit that Mr. Fine
 describes.  D My comments were aimed at the downward thrust method, not Mr. Fine'sD method. I suspect, though, that it would still take too much fuel to
 carry out.  A > Oh, and you mentioned downward thrust and issues with regard to C > premature reentry.  Of course.  But first it would be interesting C > to know if the maneuver is if any value from an orbital mechanicshB > point of view.  If you need to put the shuttle in a higher orbit? > to begin with in order to give yourself more options later on D > should a problem arise, I assume it is just a matter of tradeoffs:> > where do you want to spend your money and your fuel budgets?     Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmane   ------------------------------    Date: 05 Feb 2003 11:21:23 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: Columbiad- Message-ID: <878ywvxvik.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  = koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:   J >    Nope.  I've never, ever seen a pilot perform a pre-landing inspectionF >    outside the aircraft prior to landing.  The pre-flight inspectionI >    I learned and have done is pre-FLIGHT, once I'm up I will come down.   C I have. Nothing was in fact amiss, but it was given a VERY carefullSE eyeballing before landing. Flaps in this case, so they could have not < used them, or used a lower setting if it seemed a good idea.  @ There have also been many cases of inspection of landing gear by. another AC before digging a hole in the tarmc.   -- h< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 09:36:38 -0600e; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)l Subject: Re: Columbiao3 Message-ID: <4slmHQpC+aCr@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In article <3E405580.F6B8C46@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US>, Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US> writes:  = >   As far as the NASA VMS software I have experience with...   H    I'm sitting at an Alpha console right now on a NASA site typing this,B    in a room full of VAXen and Alpha and other systems.  Just likeA    everywhere else, VMS is not as big at NASA as it once was, butl%    it's not going away any time soon.s   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 08:01:23 -0800c. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: Columbia < Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302050801.e32ee13@posting.google.com>  o cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius) wrote in message news:<9eMZbWLEBPPK@eisner.encompasserve.org>...oG > In article <3E3DEDA3.1194B8D1@b9rvnospamcompsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" + > <jhfineb9rv@b9rvnospamcompsys.to> writes:eQ > > Your assumptions are based on remaining in a low earth almost circular orbit.  > > Q > > And while I can't remember the delta-v required to elongate the orbit, I tend-R > > to remember it as a appropriate method.  The key point is that if the velocityP > > at apogee is only 5% of the velocity at perigee, then an orbit change can beR > > done with very little delta-v.  But the offset is that there is a delta-v costR > > to making the orbit elongated and a time cost to wait until apogee is reached.  + And the fuel needed to achieve that apogee.o  J > I thought about that as well and almost included it in my post about theG > impulse required for an orbital change but wasn't sure it would work, G > especially since I initially only thought of effecting the change viaeG > a downward thrust to force the path down towards earth and thus raise E > it at some later point in the orbit.  Making the change by applyingt! > forward thrust may work better    B Yes, I believe that "forward thrust" is the most efficient method.  ) - after all, applying force perpendicular G > to the motion vector adds no net orbital energy but instead puts 100%(J > of its energy into making gas molecules fly at high speed through space.  F Well, that's true if it is also perpendicular to a radius vector whoseD origin is the center of the earth. If there is an upward or downward< component in the thrust, there will be a small change of theD mechanical energy of the spacecraft. Still, the forward thrust would be better, I would think.n  G > As far as making the correction at apogee, I worried about being able H > to get the full burn in during the apogee time, but I guess it doesn'tI > matter - just use successive apogees until you get it done.  And apogee @ > lasts longer than perigee anyway because you're moving slower.  D True. And you're moving slower because of Kepler's second law: Equal areas in equal times.o   >  > George   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 16:25:06 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>o Subject: Re: ColumbiaeI Message-ID: <CVa0a.277916$pDv.45783@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>u  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in messagev' news:878ywvxvik.fsf@prep.synonet.com... ? > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:g > A > >    Nope.  I've never, ever seen a pilot perform a pre-landingo
 inspection= > >    outside the aircraft prior to landing.  The pre-flight 
 inspectionE > >    I learned and have done is pre-FLIGHT, once I'm up I will comem down.> > E > I have. Nothing was in fact amiss, but it was given a VERY carefullrC > eyeballing before landing. Flaps in this case, so they could have  not > > used them, or used a lower setting if it seemed a good idea. > B > There have also been many cases of inspection of landing gear by0 > another AC before digging a hole in the tarmc.    E Agreed. But it's awfully hard to do at 250,000 ft and Mach 18. And by1 then it's too late anyway.  E The only things that might have been helpful in this case were EVA byeF the crew while in orbit or using the best ground-based optical imaging1 gear around while the Shuttle was still in orbit.a  E Mere speculation at this point based on the information released thusu? far, but either of these options would not have likely made anyMC difference as to the eventual outcome had a reentry been attempted-iC loss of the Columbia and death of the crew. It's doubtful that eveniF had NASA known whatever they might have discovered, and had devised anD alternative descent profile, that the shuttle would have survived to9 the point where it was feasible for the crew to bail out.q  @ As to a 'rescue' launch of the next available shuttle, even withC superhuman effort and cutting all normal safety requirements to thefF bone, it's doubtful that it could have gotten off the ground for aboutA 2 weeks. That said, as long as there was sufficient air availableyC on-board Columbia and the CO2 scrubbers continued to work, the crewlF could have survived until a rescue flight arrived. There have been allD too many demonstrations throughout human history that the human bodyE can survive significant lack of food and fresh water for surprisingly C long periods, and fortunately or unfortunately - depending on one's F point of view - the shuttle crew would have been able to rely on thoseA facts of human history. They wouldn't have been in great physical  shape, but they would be alive.n  C As to the shuttle not being equipped to hold both a rescue crew andc? the rescued astronauts, cargo netting, duct tape, and some foamgC padding would have been ok as makeshift 'seating' stretched out andrA lashed to the floor. Desperate times call for desperate measures.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 16:40:21 GMT % From: Milton <mbhewitt@optonline.net>.6 Subject: Re: Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King?8 Message-ID: <85rv3vcnt6bikskeqia9bk3m5ic21abcuh@4ax.com>  F On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 17:13:46 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:  * >Could IBM Be the Next Computer Chip King? >Fri Jan 31, 1:28 PM ETw  >Tiernan Ray, www.NewsFactor.com > A >For a long time, IBM (NYSE: IBM - news) has been content to be anD >bridesmaid, never a bride, in the PC chip market. Although Big BlueG >produces integrated circuits and chips for mainframes, and has put its-G >tremendous wealth and foundry expertise at the service of numerous CPUhE >developers, including AMD (NYSE: AMD - news) and Cyrix, it has neverD& >entered the PC processor fray itself. >tF >Since the announcement of the PowerPC 970 last October, however, that? >may be changing. With this chip, IBM now has the makings of aneE >excellent mid-range server or workstation chip. To make the 970, IBMiC >tweaked its mainframe chip, the Power4, which packs two processors ? >onto a single chip and has an amazing 128 MB of level 3 cache.fC >The 970 is comparatively low on cache, but IBM claims the chip cani@ >keep up to 200 instructions going at once, surpassing the IntelE >(Nasdaq: INTC - news) Xeon's stated rate of 126 instructions. ThanksuE >to its 64-bit capability, it can access more memory in a single gulp G >than Xeon can for large databases, and it consumes far less power thanrD >the Itanium -- just tens of watts, compared with Itanium's 100-plus >watts.D >0B >Armed with this powerful new processor, will IBM be able to breakD >Intel's stranglehold and emerge as king in the PC desktop or server >market? >S >w >Think DifferentF >Rumor has it that Apple (Nasdaq: AAPL - news) is a potential customerC >for the chip because it wants to replace the Motorola (NYSE: MOT - G >news) PowerPC chips in its Power Mac desktop computers. If IBM were totC >market the chip not only to Apple, but also to Windows PC OEMs, itaG >would be a revolution: a 64-bit chip that could scale from desktops ton0 >the high end of mid-range Wintel-class servers. >VC >Even admirers, however, have their doubts about the desktop arena.n> >Thomas R. Halfhill, senior chip analyst with InStat/MDR, told@ >NewsFactor that although IBM's new chip seems "tailor made" forG >professional publishing, he does not expect it to extend the company's = >presence in the PC processor market. "I don't see it being a D >breakthrough product," he said. "The market has standardized aroundE >the [Intel] x86 instruction set. There's too much new design work to<D >move to another instruction set, and I just can't see Dell (Nasdaq:  >DELL - news) or HP doing that."  A  IBM struck an agreement with AMD that roiled an already confuseda= market. Big Blue announced it would be sharing technology andrG manufacturing know-how with AMD, potentially opening the door for AMD's H Opteron and Athlon 64 chips to be built in IBM's plants. That could helpF keep IBM's fabs humming--something IBM needs--and could make it harderB for Intel to convince customers that they must junk their existingB software and make the big leap to Itanium. "Backward compatibilityH almost always wins over a radical shift," says IBM's Zeitler. "Customers2 want to protect the investment that's been made." ; http://www.fortune.com/fortune/print/0,15935,418480,00.html    >The Real TargetF >In fact, IBM concedes that 64-bit computing power may be overkill for? >today's desktops. Chekib Akrout, vice president of PowerPC and D >networking technology development at Big Blue, told NewsFactor thatF >the company's real target is servers running Xeon and, in the future,? >Itanium 2 chips. Intel's chips run about 87 percent of today'sc) >servers, according to Gartner Dataquest.hG >According to Akrout, developers struggling with the total power budgetyG >for racks of multiprocessor Web and database servers will be attractedsC >to the 970's power savings: It is expected to consume just tens ofnA >watts, compared with more than 100 watts for the next version ofe >Itanium 2, code-named Madison.  > C >"If you're going to compete on raw performance, you're going to be F >fighting this installed base of applications," Akrout explained. "ButE >when you find a technological barrier where designers really have togC >think differently, then I think you've got a chance to catch their  >attention." >e >i >Catch Us If You CanD >Performance is a moving target, however, and Intel contends it willD >blow away any power advantage the 970 currently holds with its next@ >Itanium, dubbed "Deerfield," to be previewed in February at itsC >developer forum. Moreover, Intel spokesperson Bill Kircos says theaE >business relationships behind Itanium are unstoppable. "We've got 20 A >OEMs signed on to Itanium, and seven different operating systemsw@ >running it," he told NewsFactor. "I think it's going to be very" >difficult to overcome that lead." >.F >Or is it? The one factor many have not taken into account is that theC >"Wintel" empire now has a credible challenger in Linux (news - webnF >sites), which has become the fastest-growing server operating system, >according to IDC. >BE >Dan Kusnetzky, IDC vice president of systems software research, saidaA >Linux' ability to run on any one of 37 chips gives IBM and otherlE >RISC-chip vendors a unique opportunity to diminish the importance ofrG >Intel's chip instructions. In other words, Linux makes the differencess* >between chip instructions less important. >i >o >Planting the Seedse@ >Nonetheless, Kusnetzky told NewsFactor, the economics of the PCB >business mean that even Linux may not be enough of a draw. "For aF >company such as Dell, the economics lie in high volume and low cost,"" >he said. "Intel has that nailed." >nD >On the other hand, IBM has spent millions helping Linux achieve itsA >current momentum. At the recent LinuxWorld show in New York, theaC >company announced new deals with embedded Linux vendor MontaVista.tF >Perhaps Big Blue hopes that if a thousand flowers bloom in the fields5 >of Linux, the PowerPC may someday catch the bouquet.  >b     Cheers,l Milton   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:37:09 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com># Subject: Re: CTERM weirdness on VAXs4 Message-ID: <1030204172719.631A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ' On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Dan O'Reilly wrote:t  I > Been converting my home network over to 100baseT from 10baseT.  At thiswF > point, I have my PC, laptop and one AS200 4/233 on 100baseT.  I haveC > an AS200 4/166 and VAXstation 4000 model 60 on 10baseT.  They allwH > plug into the same 10/100 Linksys switch (note: switch, not hub).  TheF > 2 alphas and the VAX are clustered together (they're all running VMS > 7.3).  > E > On all systems, all is OK for doing IP protocols.  For the cluster,uG > all traffic such as SCS, MSCP, that sort of thing, is fine.  However, H > on just the VAX, CTERM traffic (via SET HOST) is pretty much unusable.I > It can take several seconds for characters to be echoed, and eventuallys > the sessions just drop.e > I > I'm guessing this is just a timing problem with CTERM traffic, and it'seH > something I have to live with, as it's going into the switch as 10mbpsB > and is coming out as 100mbps.  The weird thing is that this sameI > scenario on the Alpha that only has a 10mbps interface works just fine.@ >  > Any ideas?  @ Any errors logged?  Framing or alignment errors or collisions inB the ethernet counters?  (From LANCP or "NCL SHOW CSMA-CD station *, all count" or NCP...)  (BTW, DECnet 4 or 5?)  A I have a mixed 10/100 cluster, CTERM works fine.  (VAX 4200 10Mb, G Alpha 3000-300 10Mb, AlphaStation 200 10Mb & AlphaServer 1200 100Mb FD)o> There are a variety of switches between the systems, which are scattered around the building.  C Only one 100Mb node, but there are lots of other 100Mb nodes on theS LAN.  ? During busy times, we used to get lots of framing and alignmentGA errors, apparently due to autonegotiation not working well.  OnceH> we locked down the Alpha 1200 and its switch port to 100Mb FD, these went away.  : Recent LAN ECO's may help; there seem to have been lots of fixes in this area.t   --   John Santosi Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 22:02:22 +0100 & From: Bob Marcan <bob.marcan@aster.si> Subject: Re: dynamic DNS/ Message-ID: <yTV%9.592$wK6.36604@news.siol.net>a   VAXman- wrote:o > In article <20030125214630.24260.qmail@gacracker.org>, Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:n > ; >>On Sat, 25 Jan 2003, Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:  >> >>>Dirk Munk wrote:t >>>r >>>>Phillip Helbig wrote:i >>>>& >>>>>As one can see from, for example,+ >>>>>   http://www.technopagan.org/dynamic/ K >>>>>there are many dynamic-DNS providers out there.  Can anyone recommend  I >>>>>one which is not only good in general but also easy to use from VMS?E >>>$ >>>>How about VMS itself ? >>>C >>>????T >>>OA >>>He has a changing IP address from his ISP and need to register 1 >>>that to the same IP name each time it changes.f >>>s- >>>Very common problem with xDSL connections.s >>>h6 >>>Running DNS on his VMS box obviously does not solve >>>the problem ! >>>=< >>>And as he stated there are sites out there providing this >>>service.  >>>c/ >>>Problem is to find one that is VMS friendly.  >>L >>None that I am aware of are VMS friendly, what matters is getting a clientM >>running. I use a Perl script for the cjb.net DDNS service. It works fine onsK >>VMS, and would work equally well on any other platform you could get Perl G >>on. This is a simple client that runs periodically in batch basicallyO	 >>saying:EJ >>"Hi Mr DDNS here's my username/password. Now, see where I am? That's the& >>address to point my domain name at." >>J >>Other, more sophisticated, clients detect a change of the leased addressL >>and then send an update. This can be significantly more difficult when youI >>are using a SOHO router or switch that handles the external address and A >>machines are given fixed private addresses such as 192.168.x.x.o >  > K > But that problem would plague *any* OS running behind such a router.  I'd.J > look into finding a SOHO router that is SNMP capable and then look for aJ > SNMP-Trap acknowledging a change in the assigned IP.  This RULES OUT the > popular Linksys routers. >  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMn
 >            e7 >   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" d >   
 Are you sure?a  I .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.common.commonModelId.0 A = STRING: "Linksys BEFVP41"EM .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.common.commonSoftwareVer.0   = STRING: "1.40.4"M .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.common.commonFirmwareVer.0   = STRING: "1.40.4"S .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtWarmStart.0 9 = INTEGER: disable(0)3V .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtFactoryReset.0  = INTEGER: disable(0)>W .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtAdministrator.0 i = STRING: "********"T .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtBootStatus.0  = INTEGER: normal(1)T .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtRefreshMIB.0  = INTEGER: none(0)R .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtUpdateNV.0  = INTEGER: none(0)| .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtCommunityTable.mgtCommunityEntry.mgtCommunityIndex.1  = INTEGER: 1| .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtCommunityTable.mgtCommunityEntry.mgtCommunityIndex.2  = INTEGER: 2| .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtCommunityTable.mgtCommunityEntry.mgtCommunityIndex.3  = INTEGER: 3| .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtCommunityTable.mgtCommunityEntry.mgtCommunityIndex.4  = INTEGER: 4{ .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtCommunityTable.mgtCommunityEntry.mgtCommunityName.1 Y = STRING: "public"{ .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtCommunityTable.mgtCommunityEntry.mgtCommunityName.2   = STRING: "*******" { .iso.org.dod.internet.private.enterprises.linksys.snmpMgt.commonMgt.mgtCommunityTable.mgtCommunityEntry.mgtCommunityName.3 e = "" ........   -- hA   Bob Marcan                           mailto:bob.marcan@aster.si A   Aster^H^H...HermesPlus^H^H^H...S&T    tel:    +386 (1) 5894-329pA   Nade Ovcakove 1                       fax:    +386 (1) 5894-201 A   1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia                    http://www.aster.si)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 06:57:50 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>B# Subject: RE: E*trade replacing VMS?eT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660D31@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Rob,  > <<< You know.... IBM got it - really did.  When?  Fall 1999<<<  2 Yep, they sure got it already. Brilliant strategy.  E First get on the good books of the open source movement by announcingoG major investments in Linux. Then take a great deal of those $'s, invest6G in AIX and MVS (z/VM now I think) to make them capable of running LinuxEC applications and then 12-16+ months later announce AIX 5L and Linuxy mainframes.t  
 Co-incidence?L  H Now, they get in the door preaching Linux, but at first sign of securityG or scalability or IT Consolidation issue(s) - well, lets just put those"G Linux applications on AIX or Linux mainframe. Now they sell IBM HW withtH IBM SW with Global services and annual maint revenues go back to IBM and  zero actual LINUX OS components.   Yep, they sure got it. :-)  9 Actually, I have to give them credit. It is brilliant.=20e  @ Don't get me wrong, I do believe Linux will have a place in manyD companies. Just as I believe Windows, OpenVMS, UNIX, NSK, z/VM has a place in many companies.=20r  G However, having lived through the era and huge industry hype of WindowseF NT "is going to take over the world, so we should move to it now as itD will surely get better in the future..", I feel the hype surroundingD Linux is no different than what happened with Windows 5-6 years ago.  @ Those companies promoting Linux (or Windows) and their TCO costsH typically only look at what they want to. As stated before, the OS costsF are a very small piece of the pie and the staff costs are always based  on "who do you want to believe?"  G Take away the cost of the OS and the "depends on who you talk to" staffvG costs and what are you left with? Oracle, SAP, PeopleSoft etc costs areq! the same, so what has changed?=206  E Can use lots of cheap boxes? Sure, until one realizes that one of thevG biggest projects in almost all companies these days is IT ConsolidationcC - and that includes many companies looking to consolidate their web H servers and similar type applications. And when you do IT Consolidation,C what do you do ? Put in big boxes or clusters of big boxes that candD scale and are much more highly available than many little standalone servers.  H Yes, Linux will definitely improve, and that is great. However, does one4 think that other OS's are also not going to improve?  ' The bar is constantly being raised. =20i   :-)i   Regardsa  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanta Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicesu Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)n OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM      -----Original Message-----5 From: Rob Young [mailto:young_r@encompasserve.org]=20n Sent: February 5, 2003 1:43 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comc# Subject: RE: E*trade replacing VMS?     
 In articleH <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660D2F@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>+ , "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes:t > Carl,  >=20A > Here is best quote of the day wrt to the current state of Linuxr9 > solutions: Reference from same magazine you referenced:e >=20> > http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,57353,00.htmlI > "It's like watching a baby discover its toes," said New Jersey coder=20rI > Nick Nardine. "Not only does the baby think its toes are the coolest=20sD > thing in the world, it insists you must discover your toes too.=20J > Watching these guys push Linux on us is endearing and annoying at the=20
 > same time."e >=20  = 	The absolute serious side cannot be overlooked.  The seminaleB 	piece regarding direction , "what does it mean?" is still that=20 	NYT piece:l  F http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/03/biztech/articles/20soft.html  5 	Ancillary evidence that it is having a major impact:e  H http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/linux/story/0,10801,77883 ,00.html  D After years of running disparate Unix-based systems in its global ITE server operations, Unilever is committing its technological future toe	 Linux.=20s  E The $52 billion consumer products company plans to switch to Linux on B Intel-standard hardware in all 80 countries where it operates. "WeH believe ... that it will [meet] all of our computing needs in the eight-A to 10-year time frame," said Colin Hope-Murray, CTO of the globali$ infrastructure group at Unilever.=20  E "We want to be able to cookie-cut our systems and deliver them around E the world" without having to worry about operating system or hardwareeB compatibility issues, Hope-Murray said. The company currently runsG systems with Hewlett-Packard Co.'s Tru64 version of Unix and IBM's AIX,o@ after having already migrated some applications off of HP-UX.=20    < 	It is probably going to get a real steamroller going when a numberA 	of these larger corporations roll out their own internal studiese 	showing cost savings.  H So far, [Unilever] has no cost-savings numbers to release, but anecdotal= evidence is bolstering its expectations, Hope-Murray said.=20   E "We've got an awful lot of proof points," he said, including firewallnH servers that run three times faster under Linux, with cost savings of upG to 40%. "Every time we put in Linux, we are amazed and surprised at itss7 speed and the reliability with which we can run it."=20-  9 	You know.... IBM got it - really did.  When?  Fall 1999.0  F http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/03/biztech/articles/20soft.html  D "The Linux issue," Wladawsky-Berger explained, "is whether this is aD fundamentally disruptive technology, like the microprocessor and the' Internet? We're betting that it is."=20    	Disruptive?  Absolutely.4  A 	When a steamroller is coming, you have a few choices.  Stand anda< 	do nothing.  Run ahead and *attempt* to stay ahead.  Or get behind 	it.  = 	Unilever's savings will come from industry standard hardwareg> 	and a very low-cost OS.  All other OSes dogmeat?  No.  But it@ 	is very challenging to be a Unix and compete against Linux here 	on out.   				Robp   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 06:46:01 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a# Subject: RE: E*trade replacing VMS?s3 Message-ID: <VoGIS2q7+Z8r@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  ~ In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660D31@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes: > Rob, > @ > <<< You know.... IBM got it - really did.  When?  Fall 1999<<< > 4 > Yep, they sure got it already. Brilliant strategy. > G > First get on the good books of the open source movement by announcingtI > major investments in Linux. Then take a great deal of those $'s, investaI > in AIX and MVS (z/VM now I think) to make them capable of running LinuxtE > applications and then 12-16+ months later announce AIX 5L and Linuxh
 > mainframes.s  D While spending that budget on AIX compatibility may be disingenuous,B I do not see how any Open Source or Free Software advocate has any, basis for complaining about mainframe Linux.  I > However, having lived through the era and huge industry hype of WindowsoH > NT "is going to take over the world, so we should move to it now as itF > will surely get better in the future..", I feel the hype surroundingF > Linux is no different than what happened with Windows 5-6 years ago.    E But "X will be used universally" is only the _second_ great falsehoodt of the computer industry.   9 The _first_ great falsehood is "everyone will abandon Y".    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 08:30:07 -0600 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)d# Subject: RE: E*trade replacing VMS? 3 Message-ID: <2UcIs9skwx2p@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  ~ In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660D31@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes:   > I > Take away the cost of the OS and the "depends on who you talk to" staffiI > costs and what are you left with? Oracle, SAP, PeopleSoft etc costs aret# > the same, so what has changed?=20i >   E 	Kerry.. you know I agree with a lot of what you say.  So to disagreeIA 	is good, that shows folks we aren't posting under two different r 	names :-).r  ? 	What has changed is Linux is running on industry standard kit.n@ 	4-way Xeon boxes.  We could be boring and trot out Dell prices,? 	but if you have an infrastructure of 200, 400 ... 1000 serversyH 	worldwide there is considerable savings there.  Savings on OS for sure.  ; 	I think HP is on the right track by zeroing in on Itanium. < 	Eventually, they will hit Xeon prices and Scott Stallard is@ 	not joshing when mentioning 400-500 million in R&D savings (see 	Fortune link).   G > Can use lots of cheap boxes? Sure, until one realizes that one of the I > biggest projects in almost all companies these days is IT Consolidation E > - and that includes many companies looking to consolidate their webiJ > servers and similar type applications. And when you do IT Consolidation,E > what do you do ? Put in big boxes or clusters of big boxes that can F > scale and are much more highly available than many little standalone
 > servers.  ? 	You say that and I know it is happening somewhere.  I'm seeing < 	the opposite.  I see projects and each project has a numberE 	of servers involved.  Sure the server counts have slowed down.  Sort// 	of like half the rabbits are on birth control.d  D 	Unilever will probably cookie cutter with 4 and 8 way boxes.  MaybeF 	less boxes than 2 years ago, but still a number of boxes per project.  J > Yes, Linux will definitely improve, and that is great. However, does one6 > think that other OS's are also not going to improve?  @ 	Yes, but they won't be free and more importantly, they won't beA 	tier 1 development platforms.  Linux will be tier one across the > 	board some day soon.  IBM will make sure that happens as they 	Linuxize all their OSes.    > % > The bar is constantly being raised.  >   > 	I agree somewhat.  I'd say the river is rising and the higher> 	ground is getting smaller and smaller.  Rock solid clustering? 	in Linux (when it shows up - not if) will show signs the levee  	is about to break.r   				Robd   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 15:32:42 GMT ) From: "Jo Jo Potato" <vmsforme@yahoo.com> # Subject: Re: E*trade replacing VMS?r? Message-ID: <u8a0a.422$Gs7.37060642@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>f  A "Carl Karcher" <karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu> wrote in messaget/ news:4FEB03.18524666@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu...c >n? > I hope this doesn't mean E*Trade is trading in VMS for linux.   ; Boy, you guys love to speculate based on the smallest clue,.< but in this case you are (mostly) right.  There is a project: underway to "get off VMS".  What the target system(s) will< likely be is Linux for the application(s) and Solaris/Sybase for the databases.  > Why is E*Trade doing this? Lots of reasons, not all good ones.  D 1) Because of cost cutting, the main cluster isn't disaster tolerant1 anymore anyway so that advantage for VMS is gone.o9 2) The VMS (BASIC) code is old and convoluted and hard to = maintain.  Making changes without causing problems has becomei very difficult.a3 3) The VMS programmers (and their managers) are set 7 in their ways and unwilling (unable?) to rework the VMSm code to make it maintainable.s6 4) The VMS application build process is at best poorly: documented and not repeatable.  The code library is a mess and... (see number 3).6 5) VMS is perceived as expensive,  and the third party9 products maintenance is expensive. BEA tuxedo maintenanceh5 for VMS last year was more than $1 million.  Contrast*5 this to the conversion of the web servers from Sun tot Linux that saved tons of $.r7 6) The CIO got snubbed by HP during the merger.  He wasi0 previously enjoying being on the Compaq customer1 somethingorother advisory board and getting to gor+ to Houston and play golf and eat fine mealsa: 7) HPQ has been completely unresponsive as far as avoiding; this outcome.  This despite my entreaties to local/regional 9 HPQ folks that this could be avoided with some high levelw HPQ contacts into E*Trade.? 8) IBM has got their foot in the door with the Linux boxes, ando6 I fully expect more of their products to show up, DB2?  1 I guess I've stuck my neck out far enough to now.e   Jojo Potatob   ------------------------------   Date: 5 FEB 2003 15:44:32 GMT 4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)# Subject: Re: E*trade replacing VMS? 5 Message-ID: <5FEB03.15443235@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>m  5 Sheesh - I didn't mean to start a vms v linux thread.-  H Knowing that E*trade used to be a large VMS site from a CETS200x sessionG by Keith Parris, I just wondered if it still will be. I often referencetG E*Trade to the "VMS is antiquated and dying" medical research crowd I'm > fending off here. Thank's to Kerry Main there are enough other references.    --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madisonl2 --                      karcher@waisman.wisc.edu     ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:55:43 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>s# Subject: Re: E*trade replacing VMS? $ Message-ID: <3e415e2c$1@news.si.com>  ( >The company currently runs systems withH >Hewlett-Packard Co.'s Tru64 version of Unix and IBM's AIX, after having already ) >migrated some applications off of HP-UX.    Gee, what was Carly thinking?9 -- 0I Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot com 5 Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM.,@ 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991h8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Feb 2003 15:51:25 -0600@+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)l= Subject: Engineering trends (Was: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner...)m3 Message-ID: <SLoVQ8wayRjn@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  p In article <xpW%9.269769$pDv.128689@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > 5 > "Greg Cagle" <gregc@gregcagle.com> wrote in messager+ > news:v409c52uja8ge1@corp.supernews.com...  >> JF Mezei wrote: >>B >> > Intel only sells the chip. Can it really be profitable at low > volumes when youG >> > have such high development costs for such a different architecture- > ?- >>A >> Actually, that's not true. Intel sells OEM systems to a lot ofc >> vendors, including HP.c >  > F > So all HP is selling in those instances are the HP logos made out ofG > plastic that are slapped onto the boxes, tech support from India, andeA > a manual printed in Mexico. So much for vaunted HP engineering.9 >   $ 	Just a trend, that will accelerate.  : 	Fully integrating separate components onto the CPU is the 	beginning of a trend.  A 	Glue-less SMP.  EV7 the first.  Others close behind.  But taking B 	memory controller AND network switches (cpu to cpu interconnects)< 	on to the CPU leaves little to the engineering imagination.  B 	It wouldn't be much of a stretch to see Intel doing likewise (andF 	no Bill, I don't have a link) as it makes a great deal of engineering: 	sense.  That would leave a major OEM little in the way of 	differentiation.   B 	Today, SGI and HP have shown you can make an Itanium do good.  ItD 	obviously is an engineering feat, look at HP's and SGI's respectiveF 	numbers for their Itanium offerings compared to others (cough cough).  > 	So seeing certain handwriting on the distant wall, it may not: 	have been such a bad thing to get on the Intel bandwagon.  7 	No, it isn't here yet... but the day is coming whereby B 	Intel OEMs an Itanium board that a whitebox manufacturer slaps a B 	label on, and it is engineered as well as a Dell (cough cough).  B 	Meaning high-end server prices are taking a nosedive in the next  	2-4 years.u   	Look out below!   				Robd   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 22:07:52 GMTn. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: fonts5 Message-ID: <YQW%9.138826$xv1.1710730@news.chello.at>   S In article <b1o4rc$ndk$2@cspc1n11.baplc.com>, vervoom <vervoom@hotmail.com> writes:tF >Does anyone here know an internet site where I can get the following  >font files? >h >menu12.pcf -bigelow & e9 >holmes-menu-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-p-70-iso8859-1o >menu10.pcf -bigelow & o9 >holmes-menu-medium-r-normal--10-100-75-75-p-56-iso8859-1   J $ SEARCH SYS$COMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW...]DECW$FONT_*.DAT MENU12.PCF,MENU10.PCF   ******************************8 SYS$COMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.75DPI]DECW$FONT_DIRECTORY.DAT;1  N menu12.pcf -bigelow & holmes-menu-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-p-70-iso8859-1N menu10.pcf -bigelow & holmes-menu-medium-r-normal--10-100-75-75-p-56-iso8859-1  / $ DIR SYS$COMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.75DPI]MENU1%.PCF:  ) Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.75DPI]m    MENU10.PCF;1        MENU12.PCF;1   Total of 2 files..  I on my OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 and V7.3-1 (both DECwindows-MOTIF V1.2-6) boxes.y  = So, you might already have it. Why and where do you need it ?m   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERp% Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:24:41 +05304 From: Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com>5 Subject: Re: Frmr VMS eng. (Greg Robert) seeking workaI Message-ID: <8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C260E01C8F@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>s  L Say, why not write a book on VMS internals (I know that's been done already, but can't be bought in India)?< With your exp, I am sure you'll find some one to publish it.	 Cheers...g   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 07:40:58 -050002 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)5 Subject: Re: Frmr VMS eng. (Greg Robert) seeking worksL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0502030740580001@user-2ive39a.dialup.mindspring.com>  I In article <8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C260E01C8F@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>,u5 Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com> wrote:t  M >Say, why not write a book on VMS internals (I know that's been done already,e >but can't be bought in India)?   H I think the original OpenVMS Alpha Internals and Data structures book isH out of print.  But the two sections that have be updated recently should' still be available, including in India.f   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:51:23 GMTi1 From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie)l5 Subject: Re: Frmr VMS eng. (Greg Robert) seeking workm: Message-ID: <Lx90a.10942$lM2.356616@twister.austin.rr.com>  5 Kesav Tadimeti (Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com) wrote:rF : Say, why not write a book on VMS internals (I know that's been done ) : already, but can't be bought in India)?c> : With your exp, I am sure you'll find some one to publish it. : Cheers...h :r  F Thanks to DEC, HPQ already has a subsidiary in India that is (or was)  well-versed in VMS:y  /    http://h18001.www1.hp.com/partners/digiglob/t    HP and Digital GlobalSoft     K   "...Digital GlobalSoft Limited is a globally focused software developmenthI    and services company headquartered in Bangalore, India. With a team ofhG    1,300 professionals working in offices across North America, Europe,nF    Japan, and the Asia-Pacific regions, Digital GlobalSoft delivers anA    extensive range of professional software development services.     nG    HP is a majority shareholder in Digital GlobalSoft, and more than 85 I    percent of the company's revenues are generated from services provided-    to HP..."  G Many of HPQ's U.S. IT staff are Digital GlobalSoft employees from Indian in the U.S. on L-1 visas.M  K But a Chinese version of a VMS internals book might be needed, for Intel's u Pentium 4 fab in Shanghai:  0    http://www.china.org.cn/english/BAT/53731.htm5    Intel Building Pentium 4 Plant in China's Shanghaii&                                       F   "Chipmaker Intel is set to begin its first Pentium 4 CPU assembly in    Shanghai this year.&                                       E    The production is expected to start later this year, but it is notr<    clear exactly how many units would be produced initially.&                                       H    In the past few years, the Shanghai plant has undergone a 300 millionH    US dollars overhaul in preparation for the assembly and testing. ThisI    upgrade brings Intel's total investment in the facility to 500 milliono    dollars.i&                                       H    Intel set up the Shanghai plant in 1996 with an initial investment ofD    100 million dollars to produce flash memory. Later Intel investedC    another 100 million dollars and upgraded to chipset production."c    B BTW, the U.S. Republican party is even outsourcing a fund-raising  campaign to India:  2    http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/jan/31bush.htm1    Bush's party to raise funds via Noida, Gurgaont  ;   "Bipin Chandran in New Delhi | January 31, 2003 11:59 ISTf  C    The US Republican Party now has a band of young and enthusiastic-%    fund-raisers in Noida and Gurgaon.n  ?    HCL eServe, the business process outsourcing arm of the ShivoG    Nadar-promoted HCL Technologies, has bagged a project to undertake a K    fund-raising campaign for the US Republican Party over the telephone..."h    2 --Jerry Leslie   (my opinions are strictly my own)9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for emailE   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:54:56 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>oV Subject: Re: Itanium EFI Console (was: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan  31)I Message-ID: <kUU%9.269134$pDv.66061@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>.  D "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote in. message news:3e3ffc1f_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com... >nB > We are using *the* EFI environment.  So you can imagine a system that starts C > up, puts you into an EFI boot screen, with VMS, Linux, HP-UX, and' Windowse> > boot disks that you can select with a Down Arrow and Return. >o  " What about MS-Dos for us diehards?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:07:02 +0100w9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>u% Subject: Link to Python kit for VMS ?s' Message-ID: <3E40E246.A66E9A1C@aaa.com>r   Hi.w5 I'v "googled" for a VMS kit of Python, but could onlyl" come up with some brooken links...  6 Anyone having a working link to a Python kit for VMS ?   Jan-Erik Sderholm.M   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:21:47 +0100e9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> ) Subject: Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?m' Message-ID: <3E40E5BB.645ACBFE@aaa.com>o   To be a little more specific...n   Some of the links on page :l= "http://vmspython.dyndns.org/docs/python_vms/python_vms.html"s7 works. Such as thet link to the "toolslib", but not the * link to the "python-2_3-vms-src.zip" file.   Jan-Erik Sderholm   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:B >  > Hi.t7 > I'v "googled" for a VMS kit of Python, but could onlyd$ > come up with some brooken links... > 8 > Anyone having a working link to a Python kit for VMS ? >  > Jan-Erik Sderholm.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:14:15 GMTa' From: Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com>p) Subject: Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?G* Message-ID: <3E40F207.40904@theblakes.com>  7 How about the Python that's on the OpenVMS Freeware CD?s  9 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/python/s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:20:37 +0100t9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>o) Subject: Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?"' Message-ID: <3E40F385.D77CBD56@aaa.com>a   Ouch, that's an old version...  / The latest ref I'v seen was 2.3, the link belowa is to a 1.5.2-V007 kit.d  	 Jan-Erik.c     Colin Blake wrote: > 9 > How about the Python that's on the OpenVMS Freeware CD?  > ; > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/python/C   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:14:58 GMT - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>y) Subject: Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?r< Message-ID: <6f70a.2297$jR3.1136284@news1.news.adelphia.net>   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:B > Hi.c7 > I'v "googled" for a VMS kit of Python, but could onlyu$ > come up with some brooken links... > 8 > Anyone having a working link to a Python kit for VMS ?  4 Please see my post yesterday on Python for Open-VMS.  H I do not have it working yet, but with a few corrections, I can get the = current Python sources from Source Forge to compile and link.h  H I suspect that if I built it under GNV, after removing the VMS specific H code that is doing an unsupported hack that will not work with the IA64  platform, that it would work.    -Johno wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyr   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:34:31 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>n) Subject: Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ? ' Message-ID: <3E4104D7.B73D376B@aaa.com>l   OK.o/ Does this relates in some way to the web page Is5 refered to in my other post ? It was my understandingb1 that that was a working port of Python for VMS !?    What version are you using ?  3 I have an Python application that currently runs inh? a Win2k Python 2.2.1 environment. It also uses something called 7 "Win32all" which is an add-on with support for e.g. COMu: port communication. I plan to port it to VMS with terminal3 server port communication. Hopefully it's just someV$ subroutines that have to be changed.  / "Python for Open-VMS", is that some mail-list ?,   Jan-Erik Sderholm.y   "John E. Malmberg" wrote:  >  > Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:- > > Hi.-9 > > I'v "googled" for a VMS kit of Python, but could onlyS& > > come up with some brooken links... > >d: > > Anyone having a working link to a Python kit for VMS ? > 6 > Please see my post yesterday on Python for Open-VMS. > I > I do not have it working yet, but with a few corrections, I can get theI? > current Python sources from Source Forge to compile and link.n > I > I suspect that if I built it under GNV, after removing the VMS specifichI > code that is doing an unsupported hack that will not work with the IA64t > platform, that it would work.e >  > -Johni > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion OnlyO   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:10:28 +0000 (UTC)+ From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)j) Subject: Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?s+ Message-ID: <b1r2g4$ibh$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   c In article <3E40F385.D77CBD56@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:i >Ouch, that's an old version...T > 0 >The latest ref I'v seen was 2.3, the link below >is to a 1.5.2-V007 kit. >t
 >Jan-Erik. > J Jean-Francois Pieronne posted a message to the comp.os.vms group yesterdayI explaining that Python 2.3 has had to be removed due to a licensing issue , with the previous developer of Python on VMS   seer  ` http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3E3F8C0C.47850BC6%40laposte.net    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University     >r >Colin Blake wrote:0 >>  : >> How about the Python that's on the OpenVMS Freeware CD? >> M< >> http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/python/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 08:39:14 -0500a< From: "John E. Malmberg" <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hp>) Subject: Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?m0 Message-ID: <Tu80a.491$MR1.270@news.cpqcorp.net>   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:c > OK.n1 > Does this relates in some way to the web page Ih > refered to in my other post ?s   Yes.   > It was my understandingt3 > that that was a working port of Python for VMS !?n   See the message thread:8  4 python - was Re: Status of MySQL and Postgres ports?  @ To make it easier to find, you can look in the vmsnet.vms-posix 3 newsgroup.  (Ignoring the squaters that were there)V  F The poster that I replied to Jean-Franois PIRONNE, explained why he 3 pulled the link.  He said it was a copyright issue.t   > What version are you using ?  I I have gotten the 2.2.1 and 2.3a versions to compile and link on OpenVMS DI Alpha 7.3-1.  I have not been able to get the first self test to run, it eG is failing with several error messages.  I understand and can fix some t) of them easily but have not had the time.r  H But I am building against Frontport, and a build against the GNV may go H easier as it can use the supplied makefile, except for an unsupportable 6 OpenVMS specific change that was introduced with 2.3a.  E I have just received an e-mail from Jean-Franois PIRONNE, that may  G explain the error messages that I did not yet understand.  I appear to S. be missing some .py modules, or edits to them.  H If there is a copyright issue, I think it can be resolved.  Most of the D things that I have seen in older open-source ports to OpenVMS is in 1 working around VAX C and the VAXCRTL limitations.   E Using the current HP/COMPAQ/DEC C compiler and run time library with cB either GNV and / or Frontport removes these issues, unless it has  something to do with fork().  5 > I have an Python application that currently runs innA > a Win2k Python 2.2.1 environment. It also uses something calleds9 > "Win32all" which is an add-on with support for e.g. COMd< > port communication. I plan to port it to VMS with terminal5 > server port communication. Hopefully it's just some>& > subroutines that have to be changed. > 1 > "Python for Open-VMS", is that some mail-list ?r  G No, that was my quick typing of the title as I was getting ready to go n out the door. :-)e  ; This is something that I am doing at home in my spare time.a   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network! malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hpd Personal Opinion Onlyi   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 18:37:00 +0100h9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>r) Subject: Re: Link to Python kit for VMS ?c' Message-ID: <3E414BBC.A529EB0D@aaa.com>I  ; Well, thanks John and David, that at least explains things.a4 Not that it was what I wanted to hear, but anyway...  : [My thoughts about the "previous maintainer" removed after a second thought...]  9 It don't look as I'm getting my specific app up-n-runningy on VMS then :-(f   Jan-Erik Sderholm   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:10:22 -0500- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>d Subject: Re: Newbie @ OpenVMS.6 Message-ID: <b1ol55$15bpor$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>   David Webb wrote:d >... > Emulators include :- >i) > simh    - http://simh.trailing-edge.com  >N1 > ts10    - http://sourceforge.net/projects/ts10/n >p >e >i >y > charon-vax  -g >g= > http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/product_evaluation.htm. > (Commercial only)i  J After reading this post I remembered that I had not gone to the charon-vaxG web site in a while so off I went. I see that they are again offering a G freeware Pico Vax. I did not have a lot of time to play with it, but itgI looks like there is a three hour time limit for an instance to run and itt4 will not run after sometime in September or October.   -- Peter WeaverD Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer,A nor the company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that itn sub-contracts to.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 07:02:15 -0800g& From: Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31/ Message-ID: <v429rfrcopgge1@corp.supernews.com>m   Bill Todd wrote:N > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote in message* > news:3e3ea8c5$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com...  L >>I also think that you look for joy/validation in the potential failures ofG >>Intel, Microsoft, IPF, HP, various former and current executives, andm >>ultimately VMS.u >  > 7 > Your misconceptions are your problem, Fred, not mine.d   So what *is* your agenda?.   -- .
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 04:07:59 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>J Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel2 Message-ID: <scWcnRbu7JrhSd2jXTWcog@metrocast.net>  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message ' news:87y94vy2zu.fsf@prep.synonet.com...-. > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >5< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:fSiIgis3U5EB@eisner.encompasserve.org...A >F( > > > on-chip switches coming to Itanium >.E > > Got a reference for that?  I certainly haven't seen any projected1G > > Itanic that seems likely to support on-chip switches before 2006 at D > > the earliest (and nothing specific there, either: it's just thatF > > every version prior to that data seems explicitly to *exclude* theH > > possibility).  Or on-chip memory controllers, for that matter (SPARC > > has them today, IIRC). >aC > Intel have published that the same chipset will be used till post,	 > Chivanon  J Post-*Chivano*?  I'd only heard through Montecito, and have suspected thatI Chivano was when both a major new core (from the transplanted Alpha team) H and EV7-style on-chip glue (which I originally had expected earlier, butE compatibility through Montecito seems to rule that out) would appear.S  8 , so that would seem to say NO till then. BTW, has intel: > shipped a working chipset yet? Or is the ZX1 it for now?  J Unisys, NEC, and SGI are supposedly all shipping largish systems (assumingL that anyone is actually buying them).  But no word yet that I've heard aboutH a chipset from Intel itself, which is not only somewhat embarrassing butH keeps all those other OEMs for rebadged Intel boxes (with Dell up front)H from getting into the act (again, assuming that anyone is waiting to buy when that happens).w   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:48:11 -0000* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>A Subject: Re: python - was Re: Status of MySQL and Postgres ports?s, Message-ID: <b1r87c$19k4@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  8 "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote in message6 news:ag00a.2225$jR3.1043733@news1.news.adelphia.net...  B > Right now I am working on fixing a few features in the FrontportI > library, so the python work is in the background, but I have no probleme > with sharing what I have.h  F I have had a preliminary look at porting from sources but haven't evenK got as far as compiling all the modules. As you say, CRTLs aren't what theyiF used to be. I would be interested in anything you have so far, though.   RB.,   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 13:21:04 GMTa( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9 Subject: Re: Security threats set to wreck havoc soon ... 6 Message-ID: <b1r340$15se2i$2@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  = In article <d7791aa1.0302041850.10f2201b@posting.google.com>, + 	bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:e > better get on VMS quick ...n > * > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7568  C And, of course, Symantec has no vested interest in sowing the seeds  of paranoia.........   bill   -- mJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:17:49 GMT2( From: "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com>9 Subject: Re: Security threats set to wreck havoc soon ...e. Message-ID: <h290a.176791$Ve4.10039@sccrnsc03>  5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in messageo0 news:b1r340$15se2i$2@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de...? > In article <d7791aa1.0302041850.10f2201b@posting.google.com>,d, > bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes: > > better get on VMS quick ...e > > , > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7568 >eE > And, of course, Symantec has no vested interest in sowing the seedse > of paranoia.........  K And, if by some miracle, lots of people "got on VMS quick," it would becomeu more of a target.e   -- Mark E. Levy" System Management Associates, Inc. Phone: 847-730-3193s Fax:      847-730-3194 Cell:      847-370-3071c Text:     melevy@vtext.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 08:05:29 +0100a From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ... 3 Message-ID: <0I20a.51286$Y9.3487683@zwoll1.home.nl>n   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:M > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> 9 > wrote in message news:3E3E5528.40805@nospamn.sun.com...n >  >>9 >>If Itanium struggles as many people on this group thinke >  > H > Itanium will succeed.  The only question is how large it will succeed.L > Worst case, it provides an architecture for the big-iron UNIX vendors thatJ > they don't have to roll themselves.  Best case, it eventually takes over1 > from IA32 as the most widely used architecture.  >  >  I don't know Fred,  N Intel has always maintained backwards compatability in its processors, except  with the Itanium.wG The Hammer is backwards compatible and is even a extremely good 32 bit rN processor. When 64 bit Linux and Windows versions appear that will run 64 bit Q and 32 bit programs, the Hammer clearly has an advantage over the Itanium. Do we tP need 64 bit programs? Sure, for video editing etc. we need as much memory as we O can get. Personally I want to buy a new PC sometime this year. And I'm waiting i2 for the Hammer to go on sale (after the Cebit ??).  3 So in my view the scenarios can be a bit different.r   Worst:Q AMD (and IBM !!) succeed in marketing the Hammer as the successor for the 32 bit tP IA. Intel is forced to follow, and comes up with a 64 bit Pentium. Rumours have P it that Intel has been working on that for some time now. If that happens Intel O will drop Itanium, because it will only be a niche product in their view. That TQ will not happen the next day, but Intel will switch to the new Industry Standard iM IA 64 architecture. HP is stuck with end-of-life processor. Now of course HP h5 still owns the rights to that other architecture ....   
 Second worst:mO Same scenario as above, but Intel will keep the Itanium and it will be as much oO as a niche product as the Alpha was. In that case HP will be using a processor  Q design they don't own, and that in the view of many is inferior to the Alpha. No   gain there for HP.  P What ever the outcome is, I'm sure you will agree that the coming six months or  so will be very exiting.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 05:28:00 -0600l- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)s; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...e3 Message-ID: <bt62Xfm$1hyM@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  T In article <0I20a.51286$Y9.3487683@zwoll1.home.nl>, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> writes:  P > Intel has always maintained backwards compatability in its processors, except  > with the Itanium.t   That is _Excellent_ news !  A Please post the current part number for the successor to the chipe4 from 15 years ago or so that was optimized for Ada !   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:31:12 -0500A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> ; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...I. Message-ID: <3e3ff8e1$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message & news:3E3F52C3.5070406@tsoft-inc.com...   > ( > > they have no server vendor lined up, >  >eJ > This war will not be fought on the server battlefield.  It will be waged on theK > desktop.  Without volumn IA-64 on the desktop it will be Hammer vs IA-32.s >oC > > and Hammer must still compete against IA32 in the volume space.e >   # They don't even have that lined up.l   > J > Your words.  This is the arena.  I seem to remember statements like "who willK > evr need more than 640K of memory" and "who needs 16 bits" and "who needs  32 > bits".  I Wow, and I thought those were other famous computer scientists and CEO's.R  D >  If Hammer is faster than IA-32, it will gain.  If Hammer is price' > competitive with IA-32, it will gain.F  J Good questions all.  Will it be sufficiently faster, sufficiently cheaper,L and have better margins.  My guess?  For 32-bits it will be somewhat faster,J somewhat more expensive, and won't provide the margins for platform makers to pick it over IA32.   & >  Hammer is 64 bit, and it will gain.  I Not good evidence to support this.  This is the old "if we build it, they  will come" argument.   >  IftK > Hammer threatens to take over a significant part of the desktop, not just  in theK > first few months, but in the next 3-5 years, Intel will not stand for it.u  I If AMD can't persuade DELL or HP to use it in a big way by the end of ther3 year...  btw anybode notice how Gateway has tanked?S   >  It  > will find a way to compete.o  
 Hyperbole.  5 >  When it does, the victim will be IA-64, regardlesstL > of how successful it is.  IA-64 is not fighting the battle, it just stands to lose. >i  H Not supported by any evidence.  Intel is fighting the volume/desktop warE with IA32, and can make them fast, cheap, and provide good margins totI vendors.  Intel is fighting the server war with IA64 and has HP, SGI, andgG Fujitsu (so far) lined up behind it, with Windows-64, Linux, HP-UX, VMSw* operating systems (of the ones I know of).  K AMD believes that they have designed a magic bullet for both the volume andmK server markets.  Perhaps they have, but they haven't yet shown a compelling I business case for how it will succeed in either space.  If anything, onlyrI the volume space *ignoring the 64-bitness* is promising *if* they can getrK *far* higher performance than Intel, while providing pricing and margins tor> persuade the large PC players to dump Intel as their mainstay.   > >  Nor is the G > > current sample stuff faster than shipping Itanium2 systems (despite,: > > erronious early benchmark scores for things like SAP). >s >eL > I seem to remember that the 'sample' stuff was running far slower than the firstr@ > projected production chips.  Lets keep our perspectives valid. >.  C Fine.  The comparisons have been x86-64 at a higher clock rate thanaD Itanium2, with "nearly" the same performance.  By the time it ships,9 Itanium2 will be shipping at a higher clock rate as well.    > > So far, there hasn'tF > > been a convincing "volume" story for Hammer, unless it can compete9 > > head-to-head against Intel IA32 on price/performance.n >h >eL > AMD knows that they will need to do this.  They must be planning to do so, or! > they should have quit long ago.m >J  F You might say the same thing about Alpha.  DEC should have quit in theH mid-90's when it didn't catch on.  I'm sure that AMD didn't plan a world7 wide recession around their introduction of a new chip.g   > > In the "server"6G > > space, HP, SGI, and others will be shipping server systems... but Ir haven'tVA > > heard who the Hammer 8-way mission critical server vendor is.l >  >e/ > Forget servers.  That's not the battleground.r >s  J Fine.  Where is the DELL announcement that they will start selling OpteronF desktop systems.  Last time I checked, they hadn't even committed to a server system for it.i   >iH > > So I wouldn't say that Hammer failing is "highly unlikely".  I'd say thatH > > it's still a crap shoot.  Alpha didn't win in the market place, even thoughJ > > it was arguably superior.  Nor did Beta (much to my displeasure when I3 > > finally threw away my Betamax a few years ago).y >f >uI > Alpha didn't take a very meaningful shot at the desktop.  Not saying itnK > couldn't, just that it didn't.  Regardless of what anyone wants to think,T orC > desires to ignore, Microsoft Windows, running MS Office, on cheapp hardware, isJ > the desktop.  That's reality.  Alpha never had native MS Office, or much elseK > available, and Alpha NT wasn't at the low end of the cost scale, far fromc it.o > Alpha wouldn't run the games.m >iI > However, Hammer will run all the above, AND, should a user want/need 64u bits, itH > will have that also.  You'd also want to recognize that people will be drawn toL > the alure of a 64 bit CPU, regardless of whether they need one.  Hell, who needsoJ > the currently available CPUs?  My old DEC PCs with 233 MHz PIIs do all I requireoL > of them.  But the newest and latest and greatest always sells.  That's the wayaK > people are.  If they were reasonable, they'd all be on VMS.  But they areiC > consumers who always choose cheap over quality, re; your Betamax.x >   K This is the "if you build it, they will come" argument.  AMD isn't a systemuG builder.  DELL, HP, and others will only sell it if there is a specific-J financial advantage to do so.  Will it be fast enough, or cheap enough for the big guys to do it?  I > Another issue is the vast number of PCs sold to provide Y2K compliance,s whethereI > needed or not.  They are at or past the end of their 3-year warranties,h andtH > continue to be used due to economic considerations.  But there will beI > increasing retirement of these systems, and Hammer will be available atM the timeH > these replacements become numerous.  (While it's good to be good, it's even= > better to be lucky.)  Just a bit of timing luck for Hammer.e >W   And completely meaningless.m   >nK > The future is yet to reveal itself to us, but there are enough reasons to-L > believe that Hammer, in the absence of 64 bit competition from Intel, will gain > desktop marketshare. >.  . No evidence presented except wishful thinking.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Feb 2003 12:15:32 -0600n+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)v; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...e3 Message-ID: <YZg8AV35ulVC@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  r In article <3e3ff8e1$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes: > 7 > "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messageS( > news:3E3F52C3.5070406@tsoft-inc.com... >  >> >>0 >> Forget servers.  That's not the battleground. >> > L > Fine.  Where is the DELL announcement that they will start selling OpteronH > desktop systems.  Last time I checked, they hadn't even committed to a > server system for it.l >   @ 	They can't.  First, ClodHammer isn't due until September.  Half@ 	a lifetime in the desktop space.  The only thing Dell couuld do@ 	when committing to Opteron for a server is lose several hundredA 	million in discounts.  Now the FTC might be interested in tryingo@ 	to establish a link, but you probably won't find a single emailA 	or message tying back to a sudden jump in Dell's discount.  Dell A 	- being pure Intel player - gets the sweetest discount for sure.t  A 	Now maybe Michael Dell shocks the world and goes for Opteron.  I > 	suspect his sweetheart discount got sweeter when he whispered* 	"Opteron" in a phone call to Satan Clara.   > M > This is the "if you build it, they will come" argument.  AMD isn't a systemeI > builder.  DELL, HP, and others will only sell it if there is a specific L > financial advantage to do so.  Will it be fast enough, or cheap enough for > the big guys to do it? >  	o 	Fast enough, cheap enough?   A 	Yes/Maybe.  But the problem is, because the volumes are so larger? 	on the Intel side, the only impact Opteron adoption would gainl< 	a major OEM would be painful financial issues - i.e. sudden+ 	increase ($$$) per hundred thousand parts.s   				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 21:38:37 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ... J Message-ID: <xpW%9.269769$pDv.128689@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  3 "Greg Cagle" <gregc@gregcagle.com> wrote in messager) news:v409c52uja8ge1@corp.supernews.com...h > JF Mezei wrote:i >cA > > Intel only sells the chip. Can it really be profitable at low  volumes when youF > > have such high development costs for such a different architecture ?  >r@ > Actually, that's not true. Intel sells OEM systems to a lot of > vendors, including HP.    D So all HP is selling in those instances are the HP logos made out ofE plastic that are slapped onto the boxes, tech support from India, ande? a manual printed in Mexico. So much for vaunted HP engineering.0   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 14:39:34 -0400u0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...a/ Message-ID: <3E4008E2.4EF32AB0@vl.videotron.ca>    Fred Kleinsorge wrote:L > Good questions all.  Will it be sufficiently faster, sufficiently cheaper,N > and have better margins.  My guess?  For 32-bits it will be somewhat faster,L > somewhat more expensive, and won't provide the margins for platform makers > to pick it over IA32.S  K AMD will have one chip family that covers both the desktop and server (hey,*N sounds like VAX in its heydays). This means one architecture, compilers etc toQ develop. So your development costs are shared by both desktop and server markets.o  G Intel will have two totally and philosophically  distinct architecturesO9 requiring their own separate development , compilers etc.N  J accounting tricks may allow Intel to continue IA64 development, but in low8 volumes, a chip by itself may not be able to make money.  I Digital' Alpha  was quite different: the chip itself may have been losing N money, but it was generating huge Digital profits in the system sales, as well* as the software/OS systems that ran on it.  N Intel only sells the chip. Can it really be profitable at low volumes when youD have such high development costs for such a different architecture ?   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:24:38 +0000 (UTC)5 From: "John Wallace" <johnwallace4@yahoo.dotco.dotuk>4; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...b0 Message-ID: <b1qvq5$4gi$1@sparta.btinternet.com>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:bt62Xfm$1hyM@eisner.encompasserve.org...g? > In article <0I20a.51286$Y9.3487683@zwoll1.home.nl>, Dirk Munk0 <munk@home.nl> writes: >rJ > > Intel has always maintained backwards compatability in its processors, except > > with the Itanium.e >n > That is _Excellent_ news ! >.C > Please post the current part number for the successor to the chip06 > from 15 years ago or so that was optimized for Ada !  C You refer to the iAPX432 "micro mainframe", I guess? And anyone whoeE remembers it will know that it was A Dead Architecture even before it)K finally made it to the market. Very advanced, very complex, very late, verysK unsuccessful commercially. Very much overshadowed by the x86 which came outt3 at about the same time the 432 was being developed.-  I And more recently, who remembers Intel's attempt to "do graphics" for PCsAB maybe five years ago? Can't remember the name. Sank without trace.  * Even Intel have disappointments sometimes.   regards@ john  A am I in a timewarp today? Posts on R3000 (elsewhere) and iAPX432?o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:24:11 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>; Subject: RE: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...p0 Message-ID: <01C2CD00.BB8BF180@sulfer.icius.com>  @ In article <3e3ff8e1$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge"1 <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes:i   <snip> > M > This is the "if you build it, they will come" argument.  AMD isn't a systemcI > builder.  DELL, HP, and others will only sell it if there is a specificoL > financial advantage to do so.  Will it be fast enough, or cheap enough for > the big guys to do it? > # [hope I got the attribution right]	i  G Interestingly, AMD may not be a builder but they've got a small companyeF building servers that they plan to let the biger companies rebadge andF ship. I forget the company name, but it's those guys who were buildingH the advance 1400mhz boxes that were linked here a while back. Looking atH the specs and PR on their website, looked like a lot of thought had goneD into trying to make them as reliable as possible, no single point of failure.  H If someone like Dell were to want to ship Opteron, they could hit marketA very quickly by making a deal with these guys. I think that's why  they're doing it.    Shane    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 04:27:51 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Space Shuttle softwares/ Message-ID: <3E40CAE8.CDF06508@vl.videotron.ca>r  L Since Space Shuttle software and VMS have one thing in common: QUALITY, hereK are some interesting links provided by some australian :   "Alan and Carmelr Brain" <aebrain@webone.com.au> (I have not checked them all)h     Hal/S Language features 1 http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~spaceuk/hals/hals.htmla   History of the language at& http://www.cs.toronto.edu/XPL/hal.html   Why it's not used elsewherenD http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/computers/Appendix-II.html   Shuttle Software Architecture Z > http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/reference/shutref/orbiter/avionics/dps/software.html  " Report on Shuttle Software Process3 > http://www.nap.edu/books/030904880X/html/107.htmlh  G Intermetrics Compiler Group (ie the REAL story.... fascinating reading)n, http://www.whysheep.com/i2/daf-history2.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 14:52:07 -0500h! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>-0 Subject: Re: Status of MySQL and Postgres ports?' Message-ID: <3E4019E7.3D1A2ABC@vcu.edu>   G Uuurrrppppp.......  uh, guys, i *just* finised that one off, and gainedt 10 kilos....   jimn   Shane Smith wrote: > ' > Oh no, not another cheese thread...... >  > -----Original Message-----8 > From: Mark Daniel [mailto:Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au]* > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:16 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com,2 > Subject: Re: Status of MySQL and Postgres ports? >  > Mark Daniel wrote:I > > of the the cinema adaptation of Graham Greene's, The Quiet Americian.  > * > And of course that should be 'American'. > B > Cheese, how one inconsequential caning can make you so skittish! > H > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+G >   Mark Daniel                         http://wasd.vsm.com.au/adelaidetH >   mailto:Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au (Mark.Daniel@dsto.defence.gov.au)H > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 03:24:43 -06002 From: "Stuart Johnson" <ssj152 AT charter DOT net> Subject: Re: TCP IP PAK?/ Message-ID: <v41m3ignm2vne8@corp.supernews.com>P  , "the-FoX" <mail@the-fox.de> wrote in message% news:PS30a.1$9H6.8615@news.ecrc.de...o > Hello everybody, >bG > i'm extremely new to openvms and dec. i got a dec3000 and i installedk openvmstK > which i got from the montagar.com or so. cause i didn't have a floppydisk- atJ > this machine, i thought about using ftp, but i can't start the server ?!- > i always get messages that a pak is needed.o >tI > what is a PAK ? Where did i get it from ? is it just a number ? does itt cost > extra license to use tcpip ? > . > i just got the openvms cd...nothing more :-( >n' > maybe someone can tell me what to do.e >i > thanks the-FoX >   J You must register and load a license for TCP/IP (also known as UCX) beforeK you can use the product. You get the license from the Montgar Hobbyist sitePG where you ordered the media. You will need a membership in Encompass toeE request the free licenses to allow you to use OpenVMS and the Layeredo Products (applications).) If you aren't a member of Encompass, see:4K http://www.encompassus.org/membership/join.html . It isn't necessary to payoH money if you join as an associate. It may take Encompass a while (days -% weeks) to reply with your membership.r  K Once you have your membership number from Encompass, go back to the Montgar-L Hobbyist site at URL: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/register_license.htmlI . Note: you will need at 2 licenses: one for the operating system and the I second for the applications (Layered Products). Using your Encompass (the K web page says DECUS) membership number, fill out the forms and the licenses.K will be emailed to you shortly. This only took minutes for my licenses whenh9 I renewed them a few months ago. Your mileage may vary...e  C On the HP (was Compaq) site you can read the OpenVMS documentation,-L including how to use LMF, the licensing facility. More to the point would beF the information at: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/install.html. See5 appendix B, the "Licensing Management Supplement" at:aL http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/72final/6521/6521pro_contents_002.html#toc
 _appendix_b .   9 There is also a beginners guide to installing OpenVMS at:kL http://www.montagar.com/~patj/vbegin.htm It uses an older version of the OS, but the steps are there.   Regards, Stuart Johnson ssj152 AT charter DOT nete   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:12:27 +0100, From: "Jarek Grebieszkow" <frodo@fuw.edu.pl> Subject: Re: TCP IP PAK / Message-ID: <b1r2hu$per$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>l  = "Stuart Johnson" <ssj152 AT charter DOT net> wrote in messageo) news:v41m3ignm2vne8@corp.supernews.com...rK > . Note: you will need at 2 licenses: one for the operating system and the K > second for the applications (Layered Products). Using your Encompass (the D > web page says DECUS) membership number, fill out the forms and the licensesH > will be emailed to you shortly. This only took minutes for my licenses when; > I renewed them a few months ago. Your mileage may vary...f >V  G Any idea how long does it takes to process license request ? Week ago I  registered my licenseiG first time (during that week I tried again two times) - no sign, no anyw email. -Jarek   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:03:01 +01000 From: "labadie" <en_trajectant_a_mort@127.0.0.1>I Subject: Re: TCP/IP Services v5.3 - how to increase the number of "mbufs"n0 Message-ID: <F470a.480$dN1.442@news.cpqcorp.net>  . > "Roy Omond" <Roy@Omond.net> wrote in message% > news:3E2E9E6C.C7C36FE0@Omond.net...  > > Gentle colleagues, > >t0 > > faced with the following problem (VMS 7.3-1) > >k > > $ tcpip sho vere > >n; > >   Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.3mC > >   on a COMPAQ AlphaServer DS20E 666 MHzP running OpenVMS V7.3-1i" > > > > TCPIP> sysconfig -q socket > > socket:I > > sbcompress_threshold = 0H > > sb_max = 1048576                    <---- what's this a maximum of ?  Hello  
 in the docL http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73final/6631/6631pro_002.html#inc_sock_buf  L The socket subsystem attribute sb_max specifies the maximum size of a socket buffer.   " Performance Benefits and Tradeoffs    I Increasing the maximum size of a socket buffer may improve performance if27 your applications can benefit from a large buffer size.t  A You can modify the sb_max attribute without rebooting the system.n   When to Tune    H If you require a large socket buffer, increase the maximum socket buffer size.O   Recommended Values    H The default value of the sb_max attribute is 128 KB. Increase this valueL before you increase the size of the transmit and receive socket buffers (see Section 10.2.16).y   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Feb 2003 23:42:49 -0800i# From: mafia_bond@yahoo.com (M_Alys)e2 Subject: Telnet  to a BIND Sever & Load Balancing.= Message-ID: <e382348b.0302042342.13e680d0@posting.google.com>6   Hi,s  D Would appreciate if someone can help me with this problem, how can IC configure a remote PC with Windows 98 to telnet to an OpenVms AlphatF v7.1-2 server consist of 2 servers with 2 different IPs (i.e. IP-A and- IP-B), using BIND service and load balancing.-   TIA.   ------------------------------    Date: 06 Feb 2003 00:13:40 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>$ Subject: Re: Very large disks on VMS- Message-ID: <87znpawvrf.fsf@prep.synonet.com>>  C "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes:   D > We are currently limited to 32-bit LBN's.  We are evaluating a newA > file system to overcome the size and performance limitations ofSC > ODS2/5.  When the current stuff was designed, the RP06 was cutinga > edge.e  D Fred, I think you will find that RP03s and RP04s where cutting edge,@ and Merlin, RP06s, was a gleem in the eye. ODS-2 is possibly theC oldest part of VMS. Mind, it has changed a fair bit over the years.u   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.n@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 11:05:19 -0600y- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e$ Subject: Re: Very large disks on VMS3 Message-ID: <kAD8fR7BzrN8@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <87znpawvrf.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:E > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes:u > E >> We are currently limited to 32-bit LBN's.  We are evaluating a newrB >> file system to overcome the size and performance limitations ofD >> ODS2/5.  When the current stuff was designed, the RP06 was cuting >> edge. > F > Fred, I think you will find that RP03s and RP04s where cutting edge,B > and Merlin, RP06s, was a gleem in the eye. ODS-2 is possibly theE > oldest part of VMS. Mind, it has changed a fair bit over the years.l  B Hardware that is cutting edge for customers is often passe for VMSB Development :-).    The January EV7/Marvel announcement date seemsD to have shifted a couple of times within that month from the rumoredE date.  I am quite certain it was not that VMS Development was waitingv for their first EV7 system.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 14:21:15 -0500o! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>t' Subject: Re: VMS on Itanium - bugcheck?e& Message-ID: <3E4012AB.97E8DF2@vcu.edu>  - oh yeah... it's been so long...  go for it...d   jimk   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > A > But the blue matches the DIGITAL in my original business cards.0 > 0 > "Jim Agnew" <jpagnew@vcu.edu> wrote in message# > news:3E4004C8.FD4FED0F@vcu.edu...:J > > I vote chinese red!!!!!! to match the old manuals... or, white letters > > on grey to match v5.5..tG > > or, change it to match the manual colors of the release, so you cant > > color-code the version!!!t > >" > > jimm > >i > > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > > >tK > > > Hmmm.  I used "blue" so that it would match what the BIOS initializese > the M > > > card in VGA mode to.  Should I add an option to make it something else? 8 > > > Black?  Maroon?  Line green?  Grey?  Chineese Red? > > >u	 > > > "CaN   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 14:21:48 -0500 ! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>r' Subject: Re: VMS on Itanium - bugcheck?.' Message-ID: <3E4012CC.AC3AA40C@vcu.edu>/  H but wouln'd the bluescreen only apply to the crashed instance of vms???  8-Dw   jimr   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > M > In article <3E4004C8.FD4FED0F@vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> writes:aJ > > I vote chinese red!!!!!! to match the old manuals... or, white letters > > on grey to match v5.5.. G > > or, change it to match the manual colors of the release, so you cani > > color-code the version!!!  > I > That would preclude an Itanium Galaxy implementation capable of runningS7 > widely disparate versions of VMS at the same time :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 09:43:17 -0500i! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> ' Subject: Re: VMS on Itanium - bugcheck?-' Message-ID: <3E412305.A0D6FC9E@vcu.edu>   A how do you mean?  wouldn't it say what happened to that instance?:   Bob Koehler wrote: > M > In article <3E4012CC.AC3AA40C@vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> writes:TK > > but wouln'd the bluescreen only apply to the crashed instance of vms???t > > 8-Da > So, it would be of no use.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 09:21:29 -0600n; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o' Subject: Re: VMS on Itanium - bugcheck?>3 Message-ID: <T9LxN3h3PuPF@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  K In article <3E412305.A0D6FC9E@vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> writes: C > how do you mean?  wouldn't it say what happened to that instance?  >   7    VMS, crash?  What do you think they're porting, 2.1?r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 10:57:15 -0500 ! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>r' Subject: Re: VMS on Itanium - bugcheck?h' Message-ID: <3E41345B.83628050@vcu.edu>s  H Hahahahahaaa....  Well said!!!  well, I've bounced our vms 5.5-2 systemsH a few times, but I do do realtime data acquisition, so as my systems runG at higher priority than most of the system s/w, I do push our envelopes  a little!!!!   Bob Koehler wrote: > M > In article <3E412305.A0D6FC9E@vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> writes:nE > > how do you mean?  wouldn't it say what happened to that instance?h > >l > 9 >    VMS, crash?  What do you think they're porting, 2.1?v   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 02:09:45 -0800 ) From: jbrankin@ntlworld.com (Jim Brankin)s" Subject: Re: VMS source listings ?= Message-ID: <863f19d6.0302050209.74dbecab@posting.google.com>s  H If HP management had any sense they would make the source CD's availableH on the web. Or bundle them in with every system shipped like Sun do. It G would improve people's understanding of how VMS works and help them geth
 more from it.y  W Dan <dan@vrx.net> wrote in message news:<uefh3voefi75oh8s4m3e49f4ljstcr7fsn@4ax.com>...pE > On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:04:54 GMT, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:hM > >Well Dan, the verbage of the contract reads as follow (...and my copy has a+ > >yellowed but I'm sure it's still valid):s > >gN > >So, yes, the agreement does restrict the source listings to a location.  InN > >my case, section 14 describes that place as the home office of yours truly. >  > oh for gods sakes.H > this is EXACTLY what was wrong with VMS 28 years ago, and it's EXACTLY% > what is still wrong with VMS today.y > G > the overstuffed, pigheaded, pompous, self-righteous, holier than thoue  > snobbish, stuck-up, elitism... > F > I despise that crap. and its entirely what the open-source community > is designed to get rid of. > N > >I am not a lawyer -- and I'm thankful for that as I would hate to loathe myN > >fellow man and worship the root of all evil -- but I am pretty sure that inO > >the realm of the lust for litigation types that the possession of the sourcesH > >listings does not imply any rights to them or any rights to use them. > ; > define "use". is "reading" therefore "use" ? but whatevero > F > ok so what yer saying is, in order for me to even LOOK at the stupidG > CDs, I have to travel to someone who has them and look at them there?n >  > that's dumb, but whatever. >  > Dan.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 10:41:20 GMTo" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG" Subject: Re: VMS source listings ?0 Message-ID: <00A1B061.B14761A0@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <87ptq7y29p.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:0 >Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >MG >> So with whom did you sign the source listings license agreement thato0 >                                ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^G >> would give you the rights to use them ?  Compaq also had the "single| >> location" rule. > > >Larry, do you mean a source licence, or a CD listing kit? Two >very different animals.....    6 Larry is speaking about the source listings license.     --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             75   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" j   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 05:20:51 -0600h- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a" Subject: Re: VMS source listings ?3 Message-ID: <UTehurDwcvFQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  i In article <863f19d6.0302050209.74dbecab@posting.google.com>, jbrankin@ntlworld.com (Jim Brankin) writes:iJ > If HP management had any sense they would make the source CD's availableJ > on the web. Or bundle them in with every system shipped like Sun do. It I > would improve people's understanding of how VMS works and help them getp > more from it.   @ It is easy to throw assertions out there without substantiation,$ but why don't you try to do better ?  D    1.	I presume you really mean "lower the price" since under US lawA 	they would probably be abrogating their fiduciary responsibilitye? 	to shareholders if they did not have contractual safeguards inu@ 	their release process.  (Your statement about Sun does not seem9 	compelling to me, as it relates to "just another Unix".)n  G    2.	I think most of those who really need to understand VMS operationn? 	at this level already have the source listings.  The InternalssA 	and Data Structures book is much more valuable since it actuallyr1 	explains the principles behind what is going on.l  H    3.	VMS needs _less_ third party version-dependent software, not more.> 	Pressure on VMS Development for documented interfaces is more? 	important.  I know of one area where a documented interface is3C 	under consideration that a client of mine has wanted for 10 years. @ 	A substitute for that interface is _not_ revealed by the source? 	listings, and even if it were, there would be no guarantee thet> 	same thing would work in the future (and in fact the relevant5 	area of code has been "rototilled" in recent years).i   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 13:06:41 GMTh( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: VMS source listings ?6 Message-ID: <b1r290$15se2i$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  = In article <863f19d6.0302050209.74dbecab@posting.google.com>,t, 	jbrankin@ntlworld.com (Jim Brankin) writes:J > If HP management had any sense they would make the source CD's availableJ > on the web. Or bundle them in with every system shipped like Sun do. It   C We have had dozens of Suns and have a Blade sitting in the lab nexttE to my office right now.  I have never seen a copy of Solaris Sources.   I > would improve people's understanding of how VMS works and help them geti > more from it.n  D Highly unlikely as the majority of computer users wouldn't even knowF what it was.  And in the case of VMS, even more likely as I doubt many3 people outside this group  are familiar with BLISS.h   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:15:10 +0100, From: "Jarek Grebieszkow" <frodo@fuw.edu.pl>" Subject: Re: VMS source listings ?/ Message-ID: <b1r2n1$r52$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>3  5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in messagea0 news:b1r290$15se2i$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de...  E > We have had dozens of Suns and have a Blade sitting in the lab next G > to my office right now.  I have never seen a copy of Solaris Sources.e >>  = You have to request them separately, they are free of charge.  -Jarek   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:58:55 -0500l From: Dan <dan@vrx.net>t" Subject: Re: VMS source listings ?8 Message-ID: <s5k24vsn959e677lh9h26sr0dcpgvo0hjp@4ax.com>  E On 4 Feb 2003 23:01:57 -0600, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  wrote:B >The official name of the license my company signed for the source= >listings CD is "Software Program Sources License Agreement".D >3D >I don't believe any VMS source kit has been sold (or requested by aD >customer) for years.  In 1981 or so when a consulting client boughtG >one, the cost was $25,000.  That is still with trade secrets withheld.u   not correct.  5 DECUS *GAVE* them out for *FREE* at several meetings,h without ANY license.   hrm... what about those Larry?   Dan.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:01:06 -0500  From: Dan <dan@vrx.net>a" Subject: Re: VMS source listings ?8 Message-ID: <3ak24vcudp1532f3d8r5iimeatrf9i0e8j@4ax.com>  E On 5 Feb 2003 13:06:41 GMT, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:"E >Highly unlikely as the majority of computer users wouldn't even knowcG >what it was.  And in the case of VMS, even more likely as I doubt manyi4 >people outside this group  are familiar with BLISS.  B I have some source printouts in BLISS, of things like CALC, and so forth. What an odd language...   Dan.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:00:24 -0500r From: Dan <dan@vrx.net>o" Subject: Re: VMS source listings ?8 Message-ID: <q7k24vo0gdn70pkc8b3i076q6eq95cj59u@4ax.com>  E On 5 Feb 2003 05:20:51 -0600, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i wrote: >   1.	l <snip fluf and crap removed>  F BS... sun does it... you can get the source code off the web for free.4 it doesn't lower the price or piss off shareholders.   Dan.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 03:37:52 -06002 From: "Stuart Johnson" <ssj152 AT charter DOT net> Subject: Re: [OT]Re:Columbia/ Message-ID: <v41ms7k0vflr35@corp.supernews.com>e  A "Kesav Tadimeti" <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com> wrote in messagefC news:8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C260E0165B@exdel01.del.mgsl.com...nK > The newspapers here have reported that the computers in the Columbia useduG > 8086 processors (not 80286,386...). I wonder, how come the NASA folksd didn'tK > keep the shuttle abreast with new tech? Maybe, security and safety of thenF > shuttle did not have anything to do with the processors, but I guessL > computers are used to monitor and correct movements of the spacecraft. OneI > of the crewmembers was an Indian by origin (Kalpana Chawla by name) ands the H > papers were mourning over her unfortunate death. The state she used toK > belong to (Haryana) declared a statewide holiday as a mark of condolence.t* > Things get a bit too far in these parts. > 	 > Regardsr > keshav  I Flight qualifying software for missions where human life depends on it is I NOT a simple procedure. I suspect that the qualification process requiresaJ that the hardware to be fully specified; new hardware would therefore callI for a new qualification. I have previously worked in the military supportaH industry and had to write specifications and acceptance tests, including# automated acceptance test software.p  J You aren't going to drop in a new motherboard and make the shuttle "safer"K or even necessarily "better". These systems are redundant real-time systemshJ with massive error checking and coordination of data and control. Not your home computer at all.e  ; Perhaps someone with more recent knowledge can add to this?e   Regards, Stuart Johnson ssj152 AT charter DOT netn   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 05:22:54 -0600b- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i Subject: Re: [OT]Re:Columbia3 Message-ID: <zyOD5d8jhs5n@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <3E4065D3.29A6BB34@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US>, Vance Haemmerle <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US> writes:n > GreyCloud wrote: >> g; >> About the most modern RAD hardened chip available is the 2 >> 80486.  The others wouldn't last long up there. > A >    Cassini, an orbiter getting to Saturn in July 2004 and built 3 > in the early '90s, has a RAD hardened MIPS R3000.   : Standards are different for the Manned Spacecraft program.  5 	http://www.fastcompany.com/online/06/writestuff.htmle   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 05:24:19 -0600w- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)k Subject: Re: [OT]Re:Columbia3 Message-ID: <6xyYYzL86XDu@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  d In article <v41ms7k0vflr35@corp.supernews.com>, "Stuart Johnson" <ssj152 AT charter DOT net> writes:  L > You aren't going to drop in a new motherboard and make the shuttle "safer" > or even necessarily "better".   D NASA does not have enough spare shuttles to devote one to sending up  the latest Windows Service Pack.   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:39:14 +0000 (UTC)5 From: "John Wallace" <johnwallace4@yahoo.dotco.dotuk>O Subject: Re: [OT]Re:Columbia/ Message-ID: <b1qt51$hpd$1@venus.btinternet.com>s  @ "Vance Haemmerle" <vance@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US> wrote in message/ news:3E4065D3.29A6BB34@toyvax.Glendale.CA.US...  > GreyCloud wrote: > >s< > > About the most modern RAD hardened chip available is the3 > > 80486.  The others wouldn't last long up there.P >rA >    Cassini, an orbiter getting to Saturn in July 2004 and builtn3 > in the early '90s, has a RAD hardened MIPS R3000.  >a > -- > Vance Haemmerle.  L Recent aircraft engine controls from a company whose name I've lost track ofH (too many takeovers) are still based on MIPS (R3000?) architecture. TheyA can't get the real MIPS chips now so someone builds them a custom  equivalent.    regards  john   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:05:02 +0100 B From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <k.hasler@cs.ucl.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [OT]Re:Columbia, Message-ID: <3E410BFE.C29B78B1@cs.ucl.ac.uk>  K > The newspapers here have reported that the computers in the Columbia usede% > 8086 processors (not 80286,386...).e   Definitely wrong on any count.  G The fly-by-wire control system uses an avionics processor called AP136B J or somesuch - the KSC web site has extensive documentation of the hardwareD and software freely available. There is no reason at all to use more modernI hardware in such a system - it's a hard real-time program, and as long asgG it keeps its deadlines, no improvement is required. The only thing thate waseH changed about a decade ago was to move from (limited) core memory - veryF resistent to radiation and power failures - to semiconductor memory (aH whooping 256 kwords or so) which, while it introduced some complicationsG (radiation and power, you guessed it) had the big advantage of allowingrG all parts of the code to be in memory simulatanously - no more overlaysn are used previously.  J The crew are using IBM Thinkpads of various flavours for their daily work.5 No 8086 in sight. Hey, even the Hubble has a 486 now!l   	Jan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 06:58:30 -07006 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> Subject: Re: [OT]Re:Columbia/ Message-ID: <bM80a.7$dr5.10989@news.uswest.net>   H Actually, the processors are equivalent to the 8086 in processing power.J They aren't 8086 processors, though.  The memory is ferrite core, which isD extremely resistant to cosmic radiation and only requires power when! changing from a 0 to 1 or 1 to 0.l  
 Mike Ober.  A "Kesav Tadimeti" <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com> wrote in messagepC news:8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C260E0165B@exdel01.del.mgsl.com...oK > The newspapers here have reported that the computers in the Columbia usedbG > 8086 processors (not 80286,386...). I wonder, how come the NASA folksD didn'tK > keep the shuttle abreast with new tech? Maybe, security and safety of theuF > shuttle did not have anything to do with the processors, but I guessL > computers are used to monitor and correct movements of the spacecraft. OneI > of the crewmembers was an Indian by origin (Kalpana Chawla by name) andy the H > papers were mourning over her unfortunate death. The state she used toK > belong to (Haryana) declared a statewide holiday as a mark of condolence. * > Things get a bit too far in these parts. >i	 > Regardso > keshav   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 09:27:56 -0600b; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)y Subject: Re: [OT]Re:Columbia3 Message-ID: <Ot9u9H4zjozJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>s   In article <8EA11405E59BD611BA7100104B93C260E0165B@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>, Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav_Tadimeti@KeaneIndia.com> writes:K > The newspapers here have reported that the computers in the Columbia usedsN > 8086 processors (not 80286,386...). I wonder, how come the NASA folks didn't) > keep the shuttle abreast with new tech?a  A    There are lots of computers on the shuttle.  I don't think thep*    computers controling flight were Intel.  C    In any case, you can't keep those computers current with desktopuH    technology.  Space qualified, RAD hardened computers are years behind>    what's on your desk.  Porting and requalifying software andJ    qualifying new hardware for space flight is a time consuming expensive G    procedure, even more so for systems critical to human space flight, tF    that is not justifiable when you already have something that works.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 09:39:30 -0600-; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)f Subject: Re: [OT]Re:Columbia3 Message-ID: <xlx2KCDqzI0Y@eisner.encompasserve.org>   M In article <3E40A1D7.ED583454@mist.com>, GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com> writes:t > : > About the most modern RAD hardened chip available is the1 > 80486.  The others wouldn't last long up there.e  A    80486, RAD 6000 (based on IBM RISC 6000), and I think some RADvD    hardened PowerPC.  Lot's of 80386 in use and being put into a fewA    new systems where it's known to meet the need.  Still some oldt6    70's technology in use (core memory _is_ RAD hard).   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Feb 2003 17:10:03 GMTl( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: [OT]Re:Columbia6 Message-ID: <b1rghb$15rn9f$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  3 In article <xlx2KCDqzI0Y@eisner.encompasserve.org>,m> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:O > In article <3E40A1D7.ED583454@mist.com>, GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com> writes:e >>  ; >> About the most modern RAD hardened chip available is the 2 >> 80486.  The others wouldn't last long up there. > C >    80486, RAD 6000 (based on IBM RISC 6000), and I think some RAD F >    hardened PowerPC.  Lot's of 80386 in use and being put into a fewC >    new systems where it's known to meet the need.  Still some oldf8 >    70's technology in use (core memory _is_ RAD hard). >   H Got any hardened PDP-11's floating around (that could be literally!) :-)   bill   -- kJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   I   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.072 ************************