0 INFO-VAX	Sat, 08 Feb 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 77      Contents: Re: a PDP-11 question  Re: a PDP-11 question  Re: a PDP-11 question  Re: Alpha 7.3 kits Re: Alpha 7.3 kits CockpitMgr for OpenVMS RE: CockpitMgr for OpenVMS Re: Columbia Re: Columbia Re: E*trade replacing VMS? files, I've got files again!+ RE: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages + Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages + RE: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages + Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages + Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages + Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages + Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages + Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages + RE: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages $ RE: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ...$ Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ...- Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 ) Re: Problems with Java IVP (Java 1.1.8-5) 2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ... Re: The importance of ISV's = VAX/Alpha power requirement vs. BillyBox ... was: hideousness  RE: VMS source listings ?  Re: VMS source listings ?  RE: VMS source listings ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 21:34:39 GMT  From: ian@hammo.com (paramucho)  Subject: Re: a PDP-11 question3 Message-ID: <3e6425c0.133398082@news.supernews.com>   2 On Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:43:55 +0100, Christian Corti2 <Christian.Corti@studserv.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:  ! >paramucho <ian@hammo.com> wrote: I >> I think S&H still market TSX. They were my main competitor back in the  >  >S&H = Siemens & Halske ? ;-)   ; Nope -- that's a somewhat older German engineering company.   8 I forget what S&H stand for, but they were in Tennessee.  E My company's initials, HS, were the other way around, but the company $ was based in Germany, in Goettingen.       -- Ian " Impressive If Haughty - Q Magazine   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 05:38:15 GMT 8 From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfineb9rv@b9rvnospamcompsys.to> Subject: Re: a PDP-11 question4 Message-ID: <3E43465A.A67A1376@b9rvnospamcompsys.to>   >Bill Gunshannon wrote:   % > > ian@hammo.com (paramucho) writes: I > > I saw a scan of an RT-11 internals manual at a website the other day. / > > www.spies... I don't have the addy with me. I > I know that one, but I don't remember seeing any internals stuff there.  > I'll give it another look.   Jerome Fine replies:  E I would appreciate the specific address if either of you can find it?   I > > I did some training sessions for RT-11 internals and I may still have H > > those notes on my floppies. I also did a detailed set of articles onF > > the history of RT-11 from an internals point of view. I found hardE > > copy of those recently but my guess is that they'll also be on my : > > floppies. I plan to make most of that stuff available.D > I would love to have copies of these if you ever get around to it.  	 Likewise.   F > > I also have the sources of my RT-11 clone systems. Eventually I'll9 > > make them available, but not in the immediate future. J > This too, as that was my intention.  I think at this point it seems veryK > unlikely that there will ever be a hobbyist license for any of the PDP-11 I > OSes.  Considering the limitations of the hardware it seems likely that H > making clone OSes of the original PDP-11 OSes would be a lot less workG > than what has gone into either the BSDes or Linux.  RT-11 is actually L > rather small.  RSTS/E is more complicated, but still, when you can't stuffL > more than 4M of memory in the box to begin with and you don't have VM, how& > big can the OS Kernel really be? :-)  > The TSX-PLUS Operating System by S&H was also able to run mostF RT-11 programs.  In addition, it was a multi-job version with features- that appeared in VMS or so it was advertised.   @ In addition, the following information might be helpful as well.  ? In V4.00 of RT-11, the 6 manuals listed by Will Kranz seem very / close to what was the manual set, if not exact.   B The first release of V5.00 included TECO in the DOC set, but after" that in V5.01, the 8 manuals were:  0 1.  System Release Notes / System Message ManualJ 2.  Installation Guide / System Generation Manual / Guide to DocumentationJ 3.  Introduction to RT-11 / Keypad Editor User's Guide / TECO User's Guide 4.  System User's Guide  5.  System Utilities Manual ! 6.  Programmer's Reference Manual  7.  Software Support Manual N 8.  MACRO-11 Language Reference Manual / DBG-11 Symbolic Debugger User's Guide  K There was also an "RT-11 for Beginners" manual, an "RT-11 Master Index" and ! the "RT-11 Mini-Reference Manual"   L I seem to remember that the V5.05 DOC set was still very close to the above.O By V5.06, all of the large manuals such as the Software Support Manual had been : split and there were 13 slim manuals in the V5.06 DOC set.  K NOTE that will the Software Support Manual did provide many items about the O internals and documentation of RT-11, DEC still retained other information from L ordinary RT-11 users.  Of course, anyone who has access the the source filesM with comments is provided with much of the extra material, but I suspect that H the DEC  RT-11 Development Team probably had additional internal manualsJ that ONLY the DEC  RT-11 Development Team had access to.  If these manualsK survived the breakup of the DEC  RT-11 Development Team in 1992, that extra O information would be highly useful.  If anyone who was a part of the DEC  RT-11 N Development Team would care to comment on the preceding sentence in particularC and this paragraph in general, that might provide more information.   P In addition, some of the DEC utilities such as PIP made use of some of the RT-11  N internals before PIP was coded in a more normal fashion after the EMT requestsL to perform certain file requests were added.  However, just in case, the old codeM was probably retained.  I can only think of a few EMT requests which had such N code, but they were essential at one point.  It would be "nice" to have a list of1 such information before it completely disappears.   N As for writing a new operating system that would perform the same functions asN RT-11, I would be very interested in participating.  At the same time, I wouldH like to add Y2K/Y10K to V5.03 of RT-11 so that it can be used as a check on the new version.    Sincerely yours,   Jerome Fine  --4 To obtain the original e-mail address, please remove5 the ten characters which immediately follow the 'at'. 8 If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail7 address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk 5 e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be 7 obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the . 'at' with the four digits of the current year.   ------------------------------    Date: 07 Feb 2003 17:26:08 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: a PDP-11 question- Message-ID: <87n0l8e91r.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   * bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  = > Can anyone here point me a any published information on the . > structure an internals for RT-11 and RSTS/E?  8 Not what you are asking for I know, but I have a copy of) the RSX internals `brown book' somewhere.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 12:11:26 -0800   From: jasper <jasper@never.tell> Subject: Re: Alpha 7.3 kits 8 Message-ID: <nj484vcp3j019g2v3ft2vrlu9dkmc6kdq9@4ax.com>  3 On Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:06:27 -0700, "David D Miller"  <ddmiller@raytheon.com> wrote:   >Folks > L >The hobby kits for OpenVMS/Alpha 7.3 are announced, are they not?  MortagarK >doesn't seem to be accepting orders yet -- or am I looking at an old order  >form? >  >Does anyone have the story? >  >dave. > @ They have sold out of the Alpha kits already. I sent an email toF Montagar yesterday asking if they can't allow pre-payment and continueC to accept orders. Else, people that travel, etc., may not get a kit ! when they become available again.     > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----A http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 13:57:46 -0800 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>  Subject: Re: Alpha 7.3 kits ( Message-ID: <3E442BDA.1080000@rdrop.com>  
 jasper wrote: 3 > On Fri, 7 Feb 2003 <ddmiller@raytheon.com> wrote:  > D >> The hobby kits for OpenVMS/Alpha 7.3 are announced, are they not?   No.   / > They have sold out of the Alpha kits already.    No.   C > I sent an email to Montagar yesterday asking if they can't allow  , > pre-payment and continue to accept orders.  1  From http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html   D > NOTICE: We have started getting lots more orders for OpenVMS AlphaF > Hobbyist Kits than normal. It appears that many people believed thatF > both VAX and Alpha Kits have been remastered. Only the VAX Kits haveF > been remastered. In order to prevent confusion, we will no longer beG > taking orders for the OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kit until they have been 
 > remastered.  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 02:36:43 GMT  From: "McEagle" <spam@spam.com>  Subject: CockpitMgr for OpenVMS < Message-ID: <%2_0a.25013$AQ3.423110@twister.tampabay.rr.com>  G I just read the article in the OpenVMS Technical Journal on CockpitMgr. K Article said that many large companies are already using it.  How can I get  it?    Mike   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:13:38 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> # Subject: RE: CockpitMgr for OpenVMS 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEBAGJAA.tom@kednos.com>      http://www.compaq.be/CockpitMgr  ? or you can send mail to Michiels, Johan [Johan.Michiels@hp.com] + or Gerrit Woertman (gerrit.woertman@hp.com)    >-----Original Message----- % >From: McEagle [mailto:spam@spam.com] ( >Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 6:37 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  >Subject: CockpitMgr for OpenVMS >  > H >I just read the article in the OpenVMS Technical Journal on CockpitMgr.L >Article said that many large companies are already using it.  How can I get >it? >  >Mike  >  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003  >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 19:41:44 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: Columbia J Message-ID: <YZT0a.293301$pDv.102024@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  @ "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.TRABoD> wrote in5 message news:3RVkhvpNehle@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > In articleD <CVa0a.277916$pDv.45783@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: D > > As to a 'rescue' launch of the next available shuttle, even withC > > superhuman effort and cutting all normal safety requirements to  the D > > bone, it's doubtful that it could have gotten off the ground for about E > > 2 weeks. That said, as long as there was sufficient air available B > > on-board Columbia and the CO2 scrubbers continued to work, the crewF > > could have survived until a rescue flight arrived. There have been all C > > too many demonstrations throughout human history that the human  body< > > can survive significant lack of food and fresh water for surprisinglyA > > long periods, and fortunately or unfortunately - depending on  one's D > > point of view - the shuttle crew would have been able to rely on those E > > facts of human history. They wouldn't have been in great physical # > > shape, but they would be alive.  > D > I've seen a lot of misinformation in several newsgroups concerning shuttle E > details. I've followed the space program a little closer than most.  A good? > friend made 4 flights on the shuttle between 1991 and 1998...  > C > STS-107 was one of the longest shuttle missions ever. They always 	 plan them A > with a few days of spare supplies, in case they have to scrub a 
 landing or? > two. One and even 2 day delays are normal, and not a concern.  > D > But there is NO way a 16 day mission could have been stretched out for D > another 2 weeks, 3 weeks, or whatever while they tried to launch a rescue > shuttle flight.     C I said as long as the O2 held up and the CO2 scrubbers continued to  work.   D Places like Auchwitz, Buchewald, and camps without names in Asia runC by the Japanse during WWII, the Soviets in Siberia, and many others C too numerous to mention throughout history have proven that lack of C food and fresh water are not impediments to human survival for some D undefined time period at least. People eat excrement and drink urineC when necessary to survive. It doesn't look pretty on the 6 pm news, B but this sort of thing happens around the world from time-to-time,D perhaps even daily. And it's better than the alternative of death no matter how ugly it looks.     B > And as I believe has been covered here, no way their fuel supply
 could haveB > changed the orbit enough to get them to the ISS to await rescue.  @ There was probably enough fuel on-board to keep the orbiter in aD stable orbit for a couple of weeks. I was not talking about reachingA the ISS, merely staying in LEO, awaiting a hurried rescue shuttle  launch.       @ > One way or another, the had to come down. Or die when their O2
 supply ran > out.  > If only NASA had any idea that there might have been a problem+ on-board prior to the re-entry burn........       C > Homeland Security Administration: The Gestapo of the 21st Century   @ Ashcroft and Poindexter remind me of another infamous pairing in  history....Himmler & Heydrich...   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:00:12 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Columbia 2 Message-ID: <-OqdnZ9hZO7qsdmjXTWcpg@metrocast.net>  H "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.TRABoD> wrote in message- news:3RVkhvpNehle@eisner.encompasserve.org...    ...   H > STS-107 was one of the longest shuttle missions ever. They always plan themL > with a few days of spare supplies, in case they have to scrub a landing or? > two. One and even 2 day delays are normal, and not a concern.  > H > But there is NO way a 16 day mission could have been stretched out forK > another 2 weeks, 3 weeks, or whatever while they tried to launch a rescue  > shuttle flight.   K The point is that had an inspection of the tiles been carried out and found G a problem *soon after they achieved orbit* (which presumably would have F occurred had any inspection been done at all), it would not have takenF 'another 2 weeks, 3 weeks', but only an additional few days beyond theK planned mission duration (if indeed another shuttle could have been readied  in that time).   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Feb 2003 17:26:11 -0500 7 From: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) # Subject: Re: E*trade replacing VMS? - Message-ID: <b21bq3$ksj$1@shell.monmouth.com>   6 In article <b1tu08$16o93o$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>,) Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:  > F >I don't disagree with the concept.  I just still can't believe anyoneA >ever considered taking linux seriously.  Especially when all the D >functionality it offers has been around in much better packages forE >almost as long as linux has been around.  Not all unix flavors, even E >free ones, are the products of non-professional programmer wannabes.  >  >bill  >  >-- K >Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves E >bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.  >University of Scranton   | B >Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ? Sure... but the price performance on it blows the doors off the 1 equivalent Solaris/SCO[Xenix|Unixware]/HP-UX box.   D I've sysadmin-ed and work with Solaris (X86/Sparc) and all the otherG Unix varients (done about 30 or so at this point in the career) and the D uptimes on work's linux boxes (customized kernel on RedHat 6.2) goesC over a year regularly... (We still occasionally reboot them if they < flake -- but I didn't get a year on Solaris 2.6 or 7 boxes).  E I'd prefer FreeBSD -- but the commercial libraries and stuff are more G commonly available on Linux and the telecom developers have a more SysV 
 background...   I I also have had pretty good luck with OS/2... and AIX -- but the former's G pretty dead and the AIX stuff ain't looking too healthy as far as IBM's  committment in 10 years either.   E At least with *BSD and Linux you hold the source code and can pick up  your own maintenance.   ? What can I do in a small company if I run AIX and IBM drops the 1 thing.  (Or if I run Apple OS X and they drop...)   A The only way to hold your destiny in your own hand is to have the  sources.   Bill   --  M +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ M | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter    |        pechter@shell.monmouth.com        | M |   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in  | N |   a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller                        | M +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Feb 2003 19:21:32 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) % Subject: files, I've got files again! 3 Message-ID: <wxjpimC3$7G$@eisner.encompasserve.org>   C    I know I read both the realse notes and the new features manuals >    today before I installed VMS 7.3 on my VAX, but I was stillG    pleasantly suprized to find my VAX could then both mount ODS-5 disks -    and see (in mixed case) most of the files.   $    Now I can turn off that damn NFS.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:08:15 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>4 Subject: RE: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages0 Message-ID: <01C2CE99.3D05BEA0@sulfer.icius.com>  G Actually, Phil, there is. And it's a sad one. Many VMS developers don't > have easy access to the CD-Rom on the server they log into viaE BillyBoxes. The server isn't ion the same room, but the Billy Box and C its CD ROM are right to hand, so most CD based documentation is now C going towards being readable primarily on those Billy Boxes, and of E course that's what they put on the web too. I thought there were HTML D versions for all the PDF's though, are you telling me that's not the case?    **Smack** Bad HP, BAD HP!!!    Shane    -----Original Message-----@ From: Phillip Helbig [mailto:HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com]  J > Why does HP now insist in making documentation that would typically onlyJ > be read by zealous VMS bigots like myself impossible to read on anything > other than BillyToys?   A Is there ANY GOOD REASON AT ALL why ALL VMS documentation is not  H available on BOOKREADER?  As I understand it, it is (or at least used to< be) done in DOCUMENT and the various formats were generated  automatically.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Feb 2003 11:32:27 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)4 Subject: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302071132.3b4ae737@posting.google.com>   X VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A1B21E.9EE0CF7F@SendSpamHere.ORG>...M > The OpenVMS web site -- now that it has been HorriPhied -- is unreadable at M > high resolutions.  Stop the fixed width tables (ie. <table...width="720">). N > It causes data within the tables to be cut-off 'blanked' and links in these M > areas are not accessible.  I came across this problem trying to obtain the  M > updated calling standard.  I'm tiring of having to view the document source   > to find information and links. > , > Unfortunately, this manual is also PDF. :( > ; > How about a .PS file so I can print it out and review it?  > M > Why does HP now insist in making documentation that would typically only be M > read by zealous VMS bigots like myself impossible to read on anything other  > than BillyToys?   D I frequently encounter Web pages with microscopic fonts, and IE5 andD has a setting that helps. Do Tools, Internet Options, Accessibility,A and check "Ignore font sizes specified on Web pages". (The nearby D setting "Ignore colors specified on Web pages" is great for removing3 obnoxious backgrounds that make text hard to read.)   A Perhaps your browser has a similar feature. (Browsing on a system C running VMS is not an option for me so I'm not familiar with that.)    "Hope this helps"    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:32:49 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>4 Subject: RE: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages0 Message-ID: <01C2CE9C.C0F0ECF0@sulfer.icius.com>  G Mozilla has a "minimum font size" setting. There's also a feature under F "Advanced"/"Mouse Wheel" that lets you set the mouse wheel to increaseD and decrease font sizes when you hold down a "modifier" key. You canF pick alt, shift or control. I have a games machine that displays on my; television, when I surf using it that feature is priceless.    Shane    -----Original Message-----< From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com [mailto:spamsink2001@yahoo.com]( Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 11:32 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 4 Subject: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages    + VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message , news:<00A1B21E.9EE0CF7F@SendSpamHere.ORG>...M > The OpenVMS web site -- now that it has been HorriPhied -- is unreadable at M > high resolutions.  Stop the fixed width tables (ie. <table...width="720">). N > It causes data within the tables to be cut-off 'blanked' and links in these M > areas are not accessible.  I came across this problem trying to obtain the  M > updated calling standard.  I'm tiring of having to view the document source   > to find information and links. > , > Unfortunately, this manual is also PDF. :( > ; > How about a .PS file so I can print it out and review it?  > M > Why does HP now insist in making documentation that would typically only be M > read by zealous VMS bigots like myself impossible to read on anything other  > than BillyToys?   D I frequently encounter Web pages with microscopic fonts, and IE5 andD has a setting that helps. Do Tools, Internet Options, Accessibility,A and check "Ignore font sizes specified on Web pages". (The nearby D setting "Ignore colors specified on Web pages" is great for removing3 obnoxious backgrounds that make text hard to read.)   A Perhaps your browser has a similar feature. (Browsing on a system C running VMS is not an option for me so I'm not familiar with that.)    "Hope this helps"    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 13:11:42 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> 4 Subject: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages' Message-ID: <3E4412FE.8000205@MMaz.com>    Phillip Helbig wrote:   + >>We have had no VMS based windowing system D >>(UIS, DECWindows or X) running on VMS for the better part of eightI >>years, and any type of character cell rendition of bookreader contents, G >>well it is terrible!  At least HTML and PDF outputs, neither of which G >>are Microslouth controlled formats, are at least universally 'open.'   >>     >> > P >Can't you do SET DISPLAY/CREATE/TRANSPORT=TCPIP/NODE=<where you want to read> ? >  No, that requires DECwindows!   H >>Now your real question should be, why is it that more efforts have notH >>been made to port current versions of browsers like Mozilla to ALL VMS >>hardware platforms   >>     >> > : >No Netscape and descendants on VAX: lack of IEEE support. >    > G IEEE, that can be done in software.  Slow, perhaps, but floating point  - emulation has been around since MicroVAX's...   4 >>AND their proper plug-in's and Java VM's, but thenF >>again, you're back to the real problem!  How many sites are actuallyJ >>running VMS workstations, or DECwindows/X on their VMS systems?  For us,F >>it is a waste of expensive resources that can be easily handled on a$ >>cheap but dependable Linux box...  >>     >> > G >I can't imagine any real VMS guy being comfortable at anything than a  E >real LK401 keyboard and a real |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| terminal and/or real  
 >DECterms! > I Well, I've been around with VMS for two decades and with a good terminal  H emulator, the LK401 has not been an issue as it maps perfecting, except C on my laptop but wait, that's right, there are no VMS laptops, the   tadpol flopped...   G >Folks can get as indignant as they want, but VMS lost the desktop more  >than a decade ago!  >    >  > F >It depends on what you mean by "desktop".  In a VMS shop, there is noD >reason one can't have an older, cheaper VMS machine---even on one's >desk---just to run DECwindows!  > H Sure, but this still doesn't address the fact that that slower machine, I though it might be able to boot and display an X server and environment,  H won't be able to run the apps local.  Even if you relied on open source H for all of your office productivity, graphics manipulation, and other X I apps, that code has to run some where and that code doesn't run on VAX's  D and if it does run on Alpha, you want to main data-center processor H grinding image renderings?  I don't, again using expensive data systems  in efficiently...     A >>HEY ENCOMPASS!  SURVEY REQUEST: It would be real interesting to @ >>determine how many VMS folks (SYSMGR's, IT MGR's, NOC's, OP's,F >>programmers, web designers, etc.) are honestly and actually spendingI >>their entire day sitting on an Alpha or VAX system (either at a console G >>or VT terminal or a non-unix/billybox X Thin-client) and not behind a J >>billybox or any other non-VMS windowing system!  Be sure to not only askF >>for the categories, but head counts for each so we can see how it is >>distributed!   >>     >> > F >OK, most of the folks within sight here.... :-)  At home, I also use F >only VMS, including for internet access.  (OK, I have 2 Alphas and 9  >VAXen at home. :-) )  >    > I Ok, my home hobbyist network.  Three Linux systems two running on Intel,  H one on Alpha.  VMS systems, I have five, a MV 3100, a VS 4000/60, a VAX H 4000/500, a VAX 4000/700, an Alphastation 200.  DEC Unix, I have an old B AlphaServer 1000.  As for Wintel, I have one dual-933 running W2K E Server, and desktop Win2KPro, and Win98 PeeCee's.  Which environment  / more represents today's hetrogenous networks?     D Home networks do not count, however, I was talking about commercial F production environments, not hobbyist, not consultants who would blur G the lines of hobbyist vs. work.  I'm talking about people who work 40,  B 50, 60, 80 hours a week behind a screen producing results.  In my F England office, I have no dumb terminals, in my main Michigan plant I E have less then a dozen remaining that have not been replaced with PC  H running terminal emulation; Yes we still like character cell because it F doesn't require a stupid mouse, unlike X, Windows, UIS, etc..  As for B us, VT's by any IT related department are only used on the system C consoles, so we're talking about minutes a week, the reset are via  ) telnet sessions and emulated terminals...    Barry              --    @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 15:29:20 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>4 Subject: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages/ Message-ID: <3E440908.E8F92DF1@vl.videotron.ca>    Michael Unger wrote:@ > I vote for three different formats for all documents: HTML (atH > Q's/HP's web site for Internet access), BookReader (or equivalent, forD > VMS), and PDF (for BillyToys and similar equipment, also available > from the web site).   L If I had to vote for only 2, I would go for Bookreader and PDF. I personally# find the HTML pages rather useless.   N The PDF manuals that have bookmarks are almost as good as bookreader (with the* advantage that PDF does support graphics).  N When I need doc, I download the PDF to my mac. When I have bookreader files, IN move them to a drive on my vax. I prefer bookreader since I can cut/paste from= the same window and not have to move my chair over to my mac.     I Ideally, having the official Adobe PDF reader and writers on VMS would be G heaven, especially if DECdocument were modified to generate the PDF (or K intermediate postscript) with no only the bookmarks for the index, but also : hotlinks inside the text to get you to the tables etc etc.    M This way, all documentation could be in PDF format with no need for any other L format, DECdocument could continue to be used, since it has the nice ability" to generate help files , text etc.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 08:43:18 +1030 / From: Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> 4 Subject: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages, Message-ID: <3e442f75_1@news.chariot.net.au>   Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: > Phillip Helbig wrote:  >>H >> OK, most of the folks within sight here.... :-)  At home, I also use H >> only VMS, including for internet access.  (OK, I have 2 Alphas and 9  >> VAXen at home. :-) )  >>  K > Ok, my home hobbyist network.  Three Linux systems two running on Intel,  J > one on Alpha.  VMS systems, I have five, a MV 3100, a VS 4000/60, a VAX J > 4000/500, a VAX 4000/700, an Alphastation 200.  DEC Unix, I have an old D > AlphaServer 1000.  As for Wintel, I have one dual-933 running W2K 3 > Server, and desktop Win2KPro, and Win98 PeeCee's.   A Barry, do you have your power beamed in from the plant?  I have a H Wintel, a VAXstation 4000 and an AlphaStation 500 on my study desk (justH for the survey the Wintel box is my X Display Server).  These are alwaysE up (the VAX and Alpha constantly, the Wintel I reboot occasionally to G clear dial-up network issues and then sometimes another device stuff-up D of some description).  My electric meter has it's spin-disk bearings replaced semi-annually.   G (As an after-note; hideous as they may be I still find them better than  I did Compaq's.)  F +--------------------------------------------------------------------+F    Mark Daniel                         http://wasd.vsm.com.au/adelaideG    mailto:Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au (Mark.Daniel@dsto.defence.gov.au) F +--------------------------------------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 23:53:54 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 4 Subject: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pagesJ Message-ID: <mGX0a.294709$pDv.282342@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  , <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A1B252.E6BB51BD@SendSpamHere.ORG...: > In article <3E440908.E8F92DF1@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei) <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:  > >Michael Unger wrote: C > >> I vote for three different formats for all documents: HTML (at ; > >> Q's/HP's web site for Internet access), BookReader (or  equivalent, for = > >> VMS), and PDF (for BillyToys and similar equipment, also 	 available  > >> from the web site). > > D > >If I had to vote for only 2, I would go for Bookreader and PDF. I
 personally& > >find the HTML pages rather useless. > > < > >The PDF manuals that have bookmarks are almost as good as bookreader (with the- > >advantage that PDF does support graphics).  > B > The document in question used to be authored with DOCUMENT.  The output from D > a SDML source can be one of many formats.  The PDF on the web site is fine but F > I would like to print it out (like the preliminary drafts when Alpha
 was intro-B > duced) so that I can read and study them (you know, little light reading whilstB > sitting on the can).  I've already got too much gear and I'll be disowned by myB > wife and family if I were to place a monitor and keyboard in the privie!  TheC > little league baseball season will be here soon too.  It would beh nice to takeE > this along to read at junior's practices.  ...and BG can cram it ups
 the output= > end of his alimentary canal, I am NOT paying for Micro$hafte anything!  There'sB > no reason paper cannot be accomodated.  Anyone remember the Gray
 Wall?  Has ansD > aire of dignity when spoken that's lost when saying "a lap full of Billy-shit".    = A possible work-around for the loo, batting practice, etc....y  4 http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.htmlF The version of Acrobat Reader you are downloading:  Reader for Palm OS   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Feb 2003 19:34:03 -0600p; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)n4 Subject: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages3 Message-ID: <4KF1SzRqWPXD@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  V  In article <3E43E5E6.9030402@MMaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes:
 >{...snip...}sB >>HEY ENCOMPASS!  SURVEY REQUEST: It would be real interesting to A >>determine how many VMS folks (SYSMGR's, IT MGR's, NOC's, OP's, -G >>programmers, web designers, etc.) are honestly and actually spending aJ >>their entire day sitting on an Alpha or VAX system (either at a console H >>or VT terminal or a non-unix/billybox X Thin-client) and not behind a K >>billybox or any other non-VMS windowing system!  Be sure to not only ask cG >>for the categories, but head counts for each so we can see how it is   >>distributed!  C   I sit at a genuine digital VXT, the damn billybox sits behind me.m   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:38:06 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>4 Subject: RE: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages0 Message-ID: <01C2CECF.B3088F70@sulfer.icius.com>  . >From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.orgN >In article <3E43E5E6.9030402@MMaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes:. >>{...snip...}C >>>HEY ENCOMPASS!  SURVEY REQUEST: It would be real interesting to  B >>>determine how many VMS folks (SYSMGR's, IT MGR's, NOC's, OP's, H >>>programmers, web designers, etc.) are honestly and actually spending K >>>their entire day sitting on an Alpha or VAX system (either at a console hI >>>or VT terminal or a non-unix/billybox X Thin-client) and not behind a aL >>>billybox or any other non-VMS windowing system!  Be sure to not only ask H >>>for the categories, but head counts for each so we can see how it is  >>>distributed!n >eD >  I sit at a genuine digital VXT, the damn billybox sits behind me.  H I sit at a Billy Box with eXcursion loaded that I pretend very hard is aG real workstation. Sometimes I even convince myself for a while, betweent crashes.   Shanet   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:18:00 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>- Subject: RE: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ... 0 Message-ID: <01C2CE9A.A289F1F0@sulfer.icius.com>  H Opteron is not meant to be commodity, its little brother Athlon64 is theC commodity offering. Opteron is aimed squarely at the server market.   F I think your main point may very well be true though, I hadn't thoughtE of it that way round. In this context it doesn't matter what AMD wanthE the Opteron to be, it's whether Zeitler considers it high end or not,DA and he probably doesn't. Thanks for offering that possibility up.r  E Still, we're both only speculating. Since we're doing that, how about F this one: He might have a merger or takeover in mind, rolling AMD into@ IBM. Mmmm, IBM owning and developing hammer, with access to someD ex-Alpha designers, the original AMD mob and their own experts. ThanD sprinkle on some IBM business savvy and marketing talent. I wouldn't! want to go up against that combo.e   Shaneo   -----Original Message-----/ From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net]p* Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 10:44 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come- Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ...n      1 "Shane Smith" <ssmith@icius.com> wrote in message * news:01C2CDED.0AF1FED0@sulfer.icius.com...J > Or, to be a little more fair, one IBM exec says AMD won't be a player inH > the 64bit arena in 5 years, quite possibly putting his foot in it with > his personal opinion.p  B Actually, to be accurate, he said *nothing* about AMD.  What he is reported to have said was:   B "In five years, he predicts, there will be only two players in the high-end( microprocessor business: IBM and Intel."  F Now, while AMD is indeed coming out with a 64-bit microprocessor, it'sD hardly 'high-end':  it's planned to be their commodity offering.  It doesF happen to offer excellent performance in 64-bit operation (which until now6G has been somewhat of a 'high-end' province) as well as 32-bit operation F (which is indisputably commodity in nature), and it could conceivably, ifE sufficiently successful, wipe out the current 'high-end' 64-bit uPs -l but A that wouldn't make Hammer 'high-end' itself, it would just be the B elimination of the 'high-end' market by disruptive commodity-level? technology (as relatively low-end SCSI technology wiped out thea washing-machine disk drive)..   E I doubt that Zeitler would call Hammer a 'high-end microprocessor' ifL you H asked him, and therefore I doubt that his statement was meant in any way toB include AMD.  The Inquirer's article was simply written by someone lookinglC for an eye-catching headline who didn't spend much time consideringe whethere it was factual as well.o   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 23:55:58 GMTr# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>o- Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ...sJ Message-ID: <iIX0a.294723$pDv.202097@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageu, news:R6Gcna10KJowstmjXTWcog@metrocast.net... > 3 > "Shane Smith" <ssmith@icius.com> wrote in messagee, > news:01C2CE9A.A289F1F0@sulfer.icius.com...E > > Opteron is not meant to be commodity, its little brother Athlon64u is the? > > commodity offering. Opteron is aimed squarely at the servero market.s >e; > Hmmm.  While I'd also consider Xeon (which bears the same  relationship to P4@ > that Opteron does to Athlon64) to be both a near-commodity and considerablyE > less than a 'high-end microprocessor', it's true that it's at leasto not  > *quite* as much so as P4.  >  > >nB > > I think your main point may very well be true though, I hadn't thought D > > of it that way round. In this context it doesn't matter what AMD want > > the Opteron to be, > C > Actually, I've never heard a peep out of AMD suggesting that theys meant E > Hammer to be competition in the high end of the range, just desktoph andrD > low-to-possibly-mid-range servers.  If it succeeds there I suspect it will2F > have met all their hopes for it - the fact that it might squeeze theB > high-end market down to something close to negligible would be a side	 > effect.o >e5 >  it's whether Zeitler considers it high end or not, E > > and he probably doesn't. Thanks for offering that possibility up.- > >dC > > Still, we're both only speculating. Since we're doing that, how  about E > > this one: He might have a merger or takeover in mind, rolling AMD  intoD > > IBM. Mmmm, IBM owning and developing hammer, with access to someC > > ex-Alpha designers, the original AMD mob and their own experts.t Than? > > sprinkle on some IBM business savvy and marketing talent. IW wouldn't% > > want to go up against that combo.c >e? > Back when AMD's market valuation was down around $1 billion I- wondered whyE > IBM didn't just snap it up and guessed that anti-trust issues mightr have< > played a part.  When they announced their joint technology developmentk7 > agreement I thought "Ah - so that's the alternative."  >i> > Being able to hoist Intel on its own architectural petard by
 leveragingB > AMD's evolutionary technology would not only be a major business coup forE > IBM but likely fairly satisfying as well.  If Hammer comes anywheree near tohD > living up to its promise, the legitimizing effect of adoption into IBM's 8 > lineup could be exactly what it would take to do that.    E IMHO, the current Administration is less likely to complain about IBMl+ buying AMD than the Clinton one would have.a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 01:53:32 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 312 Message-ID: <Laecnarnzohlyt6jXTWcqA@metrocast.net>  3 "Greg Cagle" <gregc@gregcagle.com> wrote in message7) news:v45kflktm7g6eb@corp.supernews.com...p > Bill Todd wrote:7 > > "Greg Cagle" <gregc@gregcagle.com> wrote in message>- > > news:v429rfrcopgge1@corp.supernews.com...l >r > >>So what *is* your agenda?e > >y > > 5 > > It's been no secret, but you're kind of new here.o >  > <detailed discussion deleted>h >iC > Thanks, Bill. I guess my next question, then, is what do you hopeg > to accomplish at this point?  K I thought I spelled that out fairly explicitly:  I hope that the continuingmG criticism of Compaq's actions (both what it did and how it did it) willVI either result in the kind of public and material atonement I described in L some detail or at least act as a warning to any who might be inclined to act similarly in the future.  $  The situation has changed since theB > "Alphacide" but it doesn't seem to me that there's a lot of hopeF > in reversing the decision given HP's stated direction and investmentE > in Itanium. You and the other Alpha loyalists spend a lot of energyjG > and effort pointing out Itanium's deficiencies - but that's not going.F > to bring Alpha back to life IMHO. Especially since I very much doubt< > the people making those decisions read this newsgroup 8^).  L This newsgroup happens to be one of the places where I'm active, so it's oneG of the places where I speak out on this issue.  And while my dedicationnK stops short of becoming active in other places that are of less interest toGK me but where my contributions might have more effect, there's at least somenJ indication that my efforts here haven't been entirely unproductive (Terry,K for example, has claimed on multiple occasions that competitors have pickedl up material here to use).F   >,G > I don't necessarily think life is going to be wonderful under ItaniumMG > either, but it's all I've got to work with so I plan to make the best  > of it.  L The difference between us is that you don't have too much choice (aside from= finding new employment), whereas I'm free to do as I see fit.e   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 21:25:05 -0600V1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31' Message-ID: <3E447891.2D7E750B@fsi.net>(   Greg Cagle wrote:m >  > David J. Dachtera wrote: > > Greg Cagle wrote:t > >2 > >>David J. Dachtera wrote: > >> > >>>Greg Cagle wrote: > >>G > >>>>Thanks, Bill. I guess my next question, then, is what do you hopeiF > >>>>to accomplish at this point? The situation has changed since the > >>>>"Alphacide"o > >>>l > >>>s > >>>It has? In what way?D > >>> M > >>>We still don't have a competitive, mass-producible, ready-for-prime-timeaL > >>>64-bit replacement for Alpha. So, in the eyes of the world, VMS remains7 > >>>a dead-end proposition. Period - end of statement.x > >>>a# > >>>So, tell me: what has changed?n > >>3 > >>Uhh, there was this merger thing that happened.  > >  > >  > > ...and your point is ... ? > > >  From your standpoint, there probably isn't one. Never mind.  4 Quite. Let's explore that. When the merger happened:  , o there was no magical resurrection of Alpha? o there was no sudden, magical appearance of OpenVMS ads in theT mainstream mediaE o there was no magical appearance of affordable OpenVMS for end-users E o there was no magical appearance of OpenVMS for ubiquitous, industryu standard systems.g  G So, other than the packaging (HP logo instead of the Q), no, there weren> no discernable changes re: OpenVMS precipitated by the merger.? Indications are that none are likely to be forthcoming, either.t  E The team remained the same. All that changed was who holds the reins.f  ; Ss, dd (and no, that's not "single sided, double density").e  ( So, I ask again: your point is ... what?   -- s David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 21:33:04 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31' Message-ID: <3E447A70.C9E253D2@fsi.net>c   Bill Todd wrote: > 6 > "David Svensson" <icerq4a@spray.se> wrote in message9 > news:734da31c.0302070841.2b44642a@posting.google.com...  >  > ...g > > Was the alphacide such a > > hard thing in your life? :)  > F > Not at all:  it simply exceeded a disgust threshold which demanded a > response.r  F I share Bill's concern here. Had the event not been preceded by publicF commitments which were publicly broken by the event, it would probably> have passed quietly as a normal event in the overall scheme of technological advances.e  D When a company plays its user base (read: it's lifeblood) for blind,: ignorant fools, that demands an unequivocal response, IMO.   -- o David J. Dachteram dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 19:51:28 -0800 & From: Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31/ Message-ID: <v48vl0to8s4q38@corp.supernews.com>c   David J. Dachtera wrote:  6 > Quite. Let's explore that. When the merger happened: > . > o there was no magical resurrection of AlphaA > o there was no sudden, magical appearance of OpenVMS ads in they > mainstream mediaG > o there was no magical appearance of affordable OpenVMS for end-usersrG > o there was no magical appearance of OpenVMS for ubiquitous, industry  > standard systems.s > I > So, other than the packaging (HP logo instead of the Q), no, there were @ > no discernable changes re: OpenVMS precipitated by the merger.A > Indications are that none are likely to be forthcoming, either.d > G > The team remained the same. All that changed was who holds the reins.@ > = > Ss, dd (and no, that's not "single sided, double density").R > * > So, I ask again: your point is ... what?  A Look - I was trying to understand why Bill (and you) make some ofu= the statements you do. I've got all the clarification I need.f< Can we close this now, or are you going to ask me AGAIN what my point is?   --  
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 22:07:39 -0600r1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>y6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31' Message-ID: <3E44828B.97D6E2EA@fsi.net>s   Greg Cagle wrote:  > [snip]C > Look - I was trying to understand why Bill (and you) make some of ? > the statements you do. I've got all the clarification I need.e> > Can we close this now, or are you going to ask me AGAIN what > my point is?  G Well, it would have been interesting to know. However, if that's as far , as you're willing to go, I'm o.k. with that.   -- - David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systems0 http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 07:50:13 GMT3. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)2 Subject: Re: Problems with Java IVP (Java 1.1.8-5)5 Message-ID: <VyJ0a.178117$xv1.2217999@news.chello.at>e  k In article <e9cbc4f2.0302061856.de51932@posting.google.com>, mcbill20@hotmail.com (Bill McLaughlin) writes:hB >I installed the latest Java (1.1.8-5) from the VMS 7.3 CDROM. TheE >install seemd to go OK but I then ran the IVP (java$ivp.com) and gotn >the following error:   ) Tonitpick on "the latest Java (1.1.8-5)":   H JAVA for OpenVMS is currently on V1.3.1-5 (in production) or on V1.4.0-1J (in beta - with a version number inconsistency to read somewhere V1.4.1-1)( so better get back to read and download.  % 	http://www.compaq.com/java/download/.   -- h Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERl% Network and OpenVMS system specialistr E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 21:46:31 -0500h( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...s, Message-ID: <3E446F87.8070707@tsoft-inc.com>   Carl Perkins wrote:e    K > Anyhow, VHS will follow Beta to the historical dustbin - although it williJ > have lived a longer life (it became available about a year later, but itK > will outlive the last Beta system produced by more than a year - probably  > at least 10).-    Q Excellant news!  If EPIC follows the same path, then at some future date we will BK be free of the toad that Intel/Carly/Curly/Boob conspired to stick us with.l  # Wonder if I'll live to see the day?r   Dave   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 23:49:59 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> $ Subject: Re: The importance of ISV'sI Message-ID: <HCX0a.294684$pDv.93953@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message* news:wjW0a.706$he4.571@news.cpqcorp.net...- > Is the end user a current OpenVMS customer?  > 2 > What is the opportunity (systems, service, etc)? >eC > Is the 3rd party tool something widely used by Oracle users?  Arei their  > alternatives that run on VMS?- >-D > I'm not a salesman, but depending on the answers -- I'll do what I can toD > direct it to the right person.  You might directly contact someone like Sue@ > Skonetski if you believe that there is an opportunity (who can
 probably finde, > and reach the right person better than I).    C I appreciate the offer Fred, but there's really nothing that can belF done. The tool is a widely used enterprise-class reporting tool from aF company on the west coast. It has never been available on VMS althoughF the vendor at one point did have a Tru64 version, but no longer. It isB available on HP-UX but I have no inclination to push that piece ofF .... on them, and they have no inclination to go that route. There wasC an interest expressed in the EV7 machines but when we looked at the0> availability of the reporting tool (no Linux version available either), it was a dead-end.   C Had the tool been available on Tru64/Linux, I'm 100% convinced thatBB they would have been at your customer benchmark lab door on Monday morning with data in hand.    F My point in all of this, as has been made by many others here, is thatF the lack of marketing is what has removed the legs from under OpenVMS,? killed Tru64 in the market, and gutted the ISV market for theseg operating systems.  B Tru64 is a better unix than HP-UX, yet it is HP-UX that has market@ share. Technically, and probably financially, HP would have beenA better off simply paying ISV's to port their unported products tocC Tru64 (which would have been renamed to OpenHP-UX, and retiring the E original HP-UX) rather than doing the organ-donor thing from Tru64 to  HP-UX.  A OpenVMS is a better o/s that Tru64 for many/most mission-critical E needs, yet it has no traction except for installed accounts, and evene, with them it has less traction all the time.  ? It isn't due to techincal inferiority of either Tru64 or VMS or F Alpha - just the inferior decision making and gutless hand-wringing ofD senior people at Digital/Compaq/HP. They remind me of Lady Macbeth - "Out, out damn spot."e  D Almost any ten people who are regulars in c.o.v. or Encompass forumsD could do a better job marketing VMS and Alpha than Digital/Compaq/HPD has done in the past 5 years. Give us a budget and we'll make waves, effectively.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 00:08:06 GMTi" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGF Subject: VAX/Alpha power requirement vs. BillyBox ... was: hideousness0 Message-ID: <00A1B264.BA49D610@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ^ In article <3e442f75_1@news.chariot.net.au>, Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes: >Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote:l >> Phillip Helbig wrote: >>>uI >>> OK, most of the folks within sight here.... :-)  At home, I also use nI >>> only VMS, including for internet access.  (OK, I have 2 Alphas and 9 u >>> VAXen at home. :-) ) >>>  lL >> Ok, my home hobbyist network.  Three Linux systems two running on Intel, K >> one on Alpha.  VMS systems, I have five, a MV 3100, a VS 4000/60, a VAX sK >> 4000/500, a VAX 4000/700, an Alphastation 200.  DEC Unix, I have an old  E >> AlphaServer 1000.  As for Wintel, I have one dual-933 running W2K "4 >> Server, and desktop Win2KPro, and Win98 PeeCee's. >eB >Barry, do you have your power beamed in from the plant?  I have aI >Wintel, a VAXstation 4000 and an AlphaStation 500 on my study desk (justaI >for the survey the Wintel box is my X Display Server).  These are always F >up (the VAX and Alpha constantly, the Wintel I reboot occasionally toH >clear dial-up network issues and then sometimes another device stuff-upE >of some description).  My electric meter has it's spin-disk bearings  >replaced semi-annually.  G Either they build some fairly crappy electric meters down under or youraB rhetoric is hyperbole.  Do you really replace your meter bearings?    H The "power" requirement is certainly hyperbole.  I run a large number ofI pieces of equipment here and it's all hanging off of a single 2200VA UPS.aI The load is ~50% (you can see for yourself at http://www.tmesis.com:2798)mG excluding the monitors which I have surge protected but hanging off theyG line power.  I have several monitors but only use one most of the time sG and power on a second, third,... only when needed.  I can tell you thatgG I've far more kit hanging off of my 2200VA UPS than you have mentioned.-   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi            l5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" i   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 10:56:47 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>" Subject: RE: VMS source listings ?0 Message-ID: <01C2CE97.AD9FF4C0@sulfer.icius.com>  G A lecturer once told me, "You can write FORTRAN code in any language." t   Shanel  < In article <A1e0a.535$062.433@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes: > Dan wrote: >  > G > Yes, I know, BLISS is really an expression language (and some folks,  H > including myself, take advantage of that - especially inside macros), I > but you can write BLISS code that doesn't look all that much different  A > than Pascal or C (+/- the speelling of various reserved words).,   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Feb 2003 19:07:23 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e" Subject: Re: VMS source listings ?3 Message-ID: <IkYFGzW0vCDQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  Y In article <wmP0a.665$6y3.334@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:l > Bob Koehler wrote: > J > Look at setting up a default structure.  With it, you can do things like > . > first_char = .my_structure[middle_array][0]; >  > just that easy..  H    Yes, that's one way.  Which basically says:  "You know that structure2    I set up?  Well, that's not really what it is."   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 01:20:40 GMTEL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")" Subject: RE: VMS source listings ?6 Message-ID: <00A1B255.B35B0E22@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  q In article <NVaSZCoKllSd@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: X >In article <01C2CE97.AD9FF4C0@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:J >> A lecturer once told me, "You can write FORTRAN code in any language."  >>   >iH >   It's interesting how much Fortran Java learned so as not to get into" >   the same probelms a C and C++. >eI >   Since Kednos made PL/I available to hobbyists I think I'll spend someIF >   time learning PL/I.  Then I'll see how much Fortran I can write in	 >   PL/I.a >g* >   OBTW:  is it Pee-El-One or Pee-El-Aye?  M Pee-El-One.  (The I is Roman numeral 1.  IBM had a great idea about combininguO the best of Fortran, Cobol, and Algol to make the first really good Programmingt* Language; thus, Programming Language One.)  N Only used it in school, but it had some really nice features twenty years ago.   -- Alan     O ===============================================================================f0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056bM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025KO ===============================================================================t   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.077 ************************