0 INFO-VAX	Mon, 10 Feb 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 82      Contents: Re: a PDP-11 question ) Re: Call for OpenVMS Freeware Submissions G Re: Doc Format Gripes (was: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages G Re: Doc Format Gripes (was: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages 	 Re: fonts  Hobbyist PAKs from Montagar?  Re: Hobbyist PAKs from Montagar?+ Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages + Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages $ Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ...$ Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ...$ Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ...$ Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ...$ Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ...$ Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ...$ Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ... Re: More dumb questions  Re: More dumb questions  RE: More dumb questions  OpenVMS Boot press release Re: OpenVMS Boot press release- Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 - Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31 P Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha RetaP Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha RetaiP Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha RetaiG Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland... > Re: OT: Java bugs abound in Slowaris 9 ... becomes memory hog!# Re: PL/I IVP failure on VAX VMS 7.3 # RE: PL/I IVP failure on VAX VMS 7.3 # Re: PL/I IVP failure on VAX VMS 7.3 2 Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...O Sysgen and UAF memory limit recommendations for Oracle on small machine (256MB)  Re: The importance of ISV's  Re: The importance of ISV's  Re: VaxELN HELP appreciated  Re: Very large disks on VMS  Re: VMS source listings ?  Re: VMS source listings ?  Re: VT100 as VAXstation console  Re: What is a Cluster ? ' Re: what limits the number of DECterms?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:02:26 -0500 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <Brian.Tillman@notnoone.notnohow.com>  Subject: Re: a PDP-11 question$ Message-ID: <3e47cd13$1@news.si.com>  9 >I forget what S&H stand for, but they were in Tennessee.    Sperry and Hutchins <grin> --  I Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot com 5 Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM. @ 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991 8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2003 21:30:11 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>2 Subject: Re: Call for OpenVMS Freeware SubmissionsD Message-ID: <20030210142000.6DD38FFD.NOFFLE@momos.conceptual.net.au>  ; Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:   C > In the past, I have found Ralf Grtners [TEXMF...] stuff ((La)Tex > > for VMS) very useful; I hope a current version is on the CD.  D It IS the current version :) Though pi is now larger, so that may be moved into the VMS kits.    % "TeX update, must be a new decade..."    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Feb 2003 16:07:08 GMT# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) P Subject: Re: Doc Format Gripes (was: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages* Message-ID: <b28inc$dm0$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  G   I expect the underlying requirement here is for newer on-line OpenVMS H   documentation that can be downloaded cheaply (freely?) and can be readE   on older OpenVMS Alpha workstation boxes and particularly on older  A   OpenVMS VAX workstation boxes.  Am I correct in my assumptions?   F   Bookreader (Bookreader/BNU and MGBOOK), PDF (XPDF), and HTML viewersF   (Netscape, Mozilla, Mosaic, Lynx, etc) are all readily available forE   OpenVMS.  Mozilla is available for newer OpenVMS Alpha only, as are D   the Java-based PDF viewers.  XPDF, AFAIK, operates on both OpenVMSG   Alpha and OpenVMS VAX.  (While I use XPDF regularly, I typically only E   use EV4-class and later Alpha systems -- I've long ago retired most )   of the local OpenVMS VAX workstations.)   G   Most new OpenVMS documentation is and will be in PDF format, as it is H   the de facto portable standard format for these materials -- the otherF   widespread documentation file format implementation -- the MicrosoftG   proprietary-format files -- are obviously somewhat less portable, and K   likely yet more controversial than the older DIGITAL-proprietary formats. E   (Yes, I know about the OpenOffice.org (OOo) stuff, and it does work F   nicely -- but no OOo port is presently available on OpenVMS.  I haveC   recently been using OOo Impress for presentations, for instance.)   I   Bookreader will be around as a viewer for quite a while, simply because G   the older documentation hasn't and likely won't be converted forward  H   into PDF or other newer formats.  Additionally, newer SGML-based toolsK   used by the HP writers do not presently have the capability of generating H   old DIGITAL proprietary-format file formats such as Bookreader, as (toH   my knowledge) no one has written a converter to translate PDF or otherJ   output into Bookreader-format files.  (This desire to move over to SGML-    based tools predates HP, too.)  G   If there is a customer base that wishes to purchase Bookreader-format K   documentation materials, I would expect that a special distribution could I   be created.  (This would not be cheap, and I expect that would be a key )   factor in its probable low acceptance.)   H   That said, I use XPDF on OpenVMS and it works nicely.  Please see the J   Freeware for a copy.  (If anyone wants to submit an updated version withI   installation kits for OpenVMS Alpha and (potentially) OpenVMS VAX, I'll 9   add the kits onto the next Freeware distribution, too.)     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:43:01 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGP Subject: Re: Doc Format Gripes (was: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages0 Message-ID: <00A1B482.0CE1DA9C@SendSpamHere.ORG>  P In article <b28inc$dm0$1@web1.cup.hp.com>, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: >  > H >  I expect the underlying requirement here is for newer on-line OpenVMSI >  documentation that can be downloaded cheaply (freely?) and can be read F >  on older OpenVMS Alpha workstation boxes and particularly on older B >  OpenVMS VAX workstation boxes.  Am I correct in my assumptions? > G >  Bookreader (Bookreader/BNU and MGBOOK), PDF (XPDF), and HTML viewers G >  (Netscape, Mozilla, Mosaic, Lynx, etc) are all readily available for F >  OpenVMS.  Mozilla is available for newer OpenVMS Alpha only, as areE >  the Java-based PDF viewers.  XPDF, AFAIK, operates on both OpenVMS H >  Alpha and OpenVMS VAX.  (While I use XPDF regularly, I typically onlyF >  use EV4-class and later Alpha systems -- I've long ago retired most* >  of the local OpenVMS VAX workstations.)  G Mozilla, and I can get over it's pig-like appetite for system resources G and it's generally sluggish take-a-coffee-break performance, cannot get G me through most of the HP pages for one reason or another.  Until there F is a browser that can accomplish this feat, please have the web site's3 pages consider those of us using this "technology".   G FYI, It took well over 4 hours to print out a page of simple directions E from Mapquest a few weeks ago.  I drove to the location and back home E before the output ever appeared on the LNCO2!  Reminded me of the old E XEROX commercial with the monks transcribing manuscripts, and just as 	 fast too.     H >  Most new OpenVMS documentation is and will be in PDF format, as it isI >  the de facto portable standard format for these materials -- the other   G It is not a portable standard until DEComHPaq provides a VMS reader for  PDF!    H >  If there is a customer base that wishes to purchase Bookreader-formatL >  documentation materials, I would expect that a special distribution couldJ >  be created.  (This would not be cheap, and I expect that would be a key* >  factor in its probable low acceptance.)  F I can get over the Bookreader but how about then HTML that can be read without bastard Javascript.     
 POSTSCRIPT???   2 HP stopped making POSTSCRIPT capable printers, eh?     --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:08:01 +0100 ' From: JOUKJ <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>  Subject: Re: fonts* Message-ID: <b284nu$hoc$1@news.tudelft.nl>   Michael Moroney wrote:G > Is there any such thing as a converter from Windoze TTF to something   > usable on VMS/Alpha?  A Depends on what application you mean. Since Freetype is available ; for OpenVMS, applications can be build which use TTF files.   F The pfaedit program which can convert/edit fontfiles is also available for OpenVMS   6 See for details how to get these packages my web-page:'   http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/                Jouk   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:23:40 -0600 (CST)  From: sms@antinode.org% Subject: Hobbyist PAKs from Montagar? ) Message-ID: <03021010234017@antinode.org>   B    Has anyone gotten a Hobbyist PAK e-mail message out of MontagarD recently?  I've had no success for about a week, and expirations are looming.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode.org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Feb 2003 17:54:18 GMT' From: robinm@rpi.edu (Michael Robinson) ) Subject: Re: Hobbyist PAKs from Montagar? - Message-ID: <b28p0a$1bpe$1@newsfeeds.rpi.edu>    sms@antinode.org wrote: D :    Has anyone gotten a Hobbyist PAK e-mail message out of MontagarF : recently?  I've had no success for about a week, and expirations are
 : looming.  D I too have been having similar problems, though I'm working on a new install...     Michael Robinson RPI Electronics Club Vaxherd   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:43:19 +1030 / From: Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> 4 Subject: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages, Message-ID: <3e477b36_3@news.chariot.net.au>   Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote:
 8< snip 8< > Mark Daniel wrote:
 8< snip 8<: >> Barry, do you have your power beamed in from the plant?
 8< snip 8<I > I live in the desert, so during the winter it isn't a problem and it's  I > actually nice, with the extra heat thrown off in the house, but during  G > the summer, my electric bill triples just to keep the house below 80  K > degrees F.  At that point, I do have to admit that I shutdown the bigger  % > horses unless I really need them...   B Thanks Barry; noticably not reactionary at all :^)  As previously E observed, yes "..the boldest figure in rhetoric, [is] the hyperbole,  F [in] that it lies without deceiving" (at least that's what a quote on  dictionary.com claims).   I Still, electric power here in South Australia is not cheap (perhaps it's  I not anywhere).  Given the choice, I'd rather invest in the wine than the  F power industry.  Our winter diurnal range is circa 5C to 15C. Walking E into my study in the early morning there's a noticable ambience, and  H it's not just the steady whine.  Even at 120W for the VAX, 200W for the E Alpha, and 200W for the PeeCee (each has 2 x HDD; guesstimates - I'm  I sure someone will clarify this for me ;^) that's in excess of one-half a  H kilowatt-hour.  At the (perhaps) figure of 520W per hour, that would be I ~12.48 kWh per day, or ~4,555 kWh per year.  Our current tarif is A$0.14  F per kWh (if I read the bill correctly - they just call them 'units' - D but the number on the bill corresponds to the reading in kWh on the G meter) that comes out to ~A$638 per year just to raise the temperature  D of my study a few degrees, even during our 20C to 40C summer.  (I'm 7 suddenly starting to regret undertaking this exercise.)   G The last time I powered every thing down (for a two week vacation) the  H DEC 3000 (I had then) blew it's power supply electrolytics on power-up. C   The next time the VAXstation did the same - and it's system disk  H refused to spin up (even after DOP testing).  I use this to rationalize K that it's still cheaper (and certainly more convenient) to keep them up ;^)   H Someone please tell me my figures aren't worth the Windows Calculator I 2 did them on - I'm about the power everything down.  F PS.  I checked the meter, it's a Warburton Franki (NSW) installed and I sealed when the house was last renovated, probably some twenty-two years  F ago (the house is eighty years old).  I was really hoping when I went 7 out there I'd find the spinning disk bearings *seized*.   H PPS.  Hopefully I have placed enough smileys into this one to flag it's  intent.   F +--------------------------------------------------------------------+E   Mark Daniel                         http://wasd.vsm.com.au/adelaide F   mailto:Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au (Mark.Daniel@dsto.defence.gov.au)F +--------------------------------------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:15:19 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 4 Subject: Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pagesK Message-ID: <bmP1a.633521$F2h1.195023@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   < "Mark Daniel" <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> wrote in message& news:3e477b36_3@news.chariot.net.au... > Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: > 8< snip 8< > > Mark Daniel wrote: > 8< snip 8<< > >> Barry, do you have your power beamed in from the plant? > 8< snip 8<E > > I live in the desert, so during the winter it isn't a problem and  it'sC > > actually nice, with the extra heat thrown off in the house, but  duringE > > the summer, my electric bill triples just to keep the house below  80E > > degrees F.  At that point, I do have to admit that I shutdown the  bigger' > > horses unless I really need them...  > C > Thanks Barry; noticably not reactionary at all :^)  As previously F > observed, yes "..the boldest figure in rhetoric, [is] the hyperbole,D > [in] that it lies without deceiving" (at least that's what a quote on > dictionary.com claims).  > E > Still, electric power here in South Australia is not cheap (perhaps  it'sF > not anywhere).  Given the choice, I'd rather invest in the wine than the ? > power industry.  Our winter diurnal range is circa 5C to 15C.  Walking F > into my study in the early morning there's a noticable ambience, andE > it's not just the steady whine.  Even at 120W for the VAX, 200W for  the F > Alpha, and 200W for the PeeCee (each has 2 x HDD; guesstimates - I'm? > sure someone will clarify this for me ;^) that's in excess of 
 one-half aF > kilowatt-hour.  At the (perhaps) figure of 520W per hour, that would beC > ~12.48 kWh per day, or ~4,555 kWh per year.  Our current tarif is  A$0.14= > per kWh (if I read the bill correctly - they just call them 	 'units' - E > but the number on the bill corresponds to the reading in kWh on the < > meter) that comes out to ~A$638 per year just to raise the temperature E > of my study a few degrees, even during our 20C to 40C summer.  (I'm 9 > suddenly starting to regret undertaking this exercise.)  > D > The last time I powered every thing down (for a two week vacation) the ? > DEC 3000 (I had then) blew it's power supply electrolytics on 	 power-up. D >   The next time the VAXstation did the same - and it's system disk= > refused to spin up (even after DOP testing).  I use this to  rationalize F > that it's still cheaper (and certainly more convenient) to keep them up ;^) > < > Someone please tell me my figures aren't worth the Windows Calculator I4 > did them on - I'm about the power everything down. > C > PS.  I checked the meter, it's a Warburton Franki (NSW) installed  and D > sealed when the house was last renovated, probably some twenty-two years B > ago (the house is eighty years old).  I was really hoping when I went9 > out there I'd find the spinning disk bearings *seized*.     @ My local electric company will replace the meter if I feel it isF measuring inaccurately. They also randomly replace meters and test theE ones they pull to have some idea of the failure rate and drift in the  readings over time.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 06:50:11 GMT   From: CJT <cheljuba@prodigy.net>- Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ... ( Message-ID: <3E474BAE.30109@prodigy.net>   Bill Todd wrote: <snip> >  > M > Actually, to be accurate, he said *nothing* about AMD.  What he is reported  > to have said was:  > M > "In five years, he predicts, there will be only two players in the high-end * > microprocessor business: IBM and Intel."  F I imagine somebody within IBM said something similar about disk drives five years ago.    <snip>   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2003 20:49:11 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>- Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ... D Message-ID: <20030210141958.6B944F28.NOFFLE@momos.conceptual.net.au>  , "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > > Being able to hoist Intel on its own architectural petard byD > leveraging AMD's evolutionary technology would not only be a majorA > business coup for IBM but likely fairly satisfying as well.  If = > Hammer comes anywhere near to living up to its promise, the D > legitimizing effect of adoption into IBM's lineup could be exactly  > what it would take to do that.  E Does anyone remember off the top of their head if AMD is a full Alpha  licencee or not?   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2003 08:28:25 -0800( From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut)- Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ... ; Message-ID: <c5cf6e8.0302100828.22bfaed@posting.google.com>   l bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0302061335.6341e20@posting.google.com>...* > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7641  E Don't forget that the Hammer runs 32-bit code faster than the Itanic.   > People will buy the Hammer as a cheap, fast Pentium substitue.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:52:24 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> - Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ... J Message-ID: <cNQ1a.633543$F2h1.55355@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message > news:20030210141958.6B944F28.NOFFLE@momos.conceptual.net.au.... > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > @ > > Being able to hoist Intel on its own architectural petard byF > > leveraging AMD's evolutionary technology would not only be a majorC > > business coup for IBM but likely fairly satisfying as well.  If ? > > Hammer comes anywhere near to living up to its promise, the F > > legitimizing effect of adoption into IBM's lineup could be exactly" > > what it would take to do that. > A > Does anyone remember off the top of their head if AMD is a full  Alpha  > licencee or not?    ; For a selection of articles that only serve to confuse.....   . http://www.ftc.gov/os/2000/02/digitalorder.htm/ http://www.ftc.gov/os/1998/9804/9810040.ana.htm 0 http://www.hoise.com/articles/CL-PR-05-98-1.html6 http://content.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19991215S0005& (I wonder why they made this request?)    7 http://www.siliconstrategies.com/story/OEG19991217S0080 - http://news.com.com/%5C/2100-1001-848153.html 7 http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,46347,00.asp 5 http://news.com.com/2100-1023-210495.html?legacy=cnet + http://x86.ddj.com/news/2001/news062401.htm   : http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/news/article/1304/E However, representatives from Compaq have stated that the Alpha, once E the king of processors, will be able to differentiate itself less and @ less from other (Intel) 64-bit processors within the foreseeableF future, and as a result, Compaq has decided to abandon Alpha, and cash$ in while it's still worth something.  E "This is a very bold move for us," said Rich Marcello, vice president D and general manager for Compaq's performance systems group. He notedA that the Alpha road map extended for several more years, but that D starting around 2004, when the chip would have competed head-to-headA against Intel's Itanium, its performance advantage would begin to D erode significantly. "When we looked at our road map and overlaid itD with Intel's road map, we found there was no substantial performance= benefit," he said. "Basically, we are saying that we couldn't * differentiate ourselves at the CPU level."     And finally, if only... 3 http://www.eetimes.com/news/98/1012news/compaq.html    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2003 11:35:19 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) - Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ... 3 Message-ID: <Ogn1rPEPpaY3@eisner.encompasserve.org>   p In article <cNQ1a.633543$F2h1.55355@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > < > http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/news/article/1304/G > However, representatives from Compaq have stated that the Alpha, once G > the king of processors, will be able to differentiate itself less and B > less from other (Intel) 64-bit processors within the foreseeableH > future, and as a result, Compaq has decided to abandon Alpha, and cash& > in while it's still worth something. > G > "This is a very bold move for us," said Rich Marcello, vice president F > and general manager for Compaq's performance systems group. He notedC > that the Alpha road map extended for several more years, but that F > starting around 2004, when the chip would have competed head-to-headC > against Intel's Itanium, its performance advantage would begin to F > erode significantly. "When we looked at our road map and overlaid itF > with Intel's road map, we found there was no substantial performance? > benefit," he said. "Basically, we are saying that we couldn't , > differentiate ourselves at the CPU level." >   % 	Yes of course... and Eunice concurs:   L While Sun deserves credit for proving that powerful Unix servers can competeK against Intel systems, it's clear computers using Sun processors eventually < will be inundated, said Illuminata analyst Jonathan Eunice.   K "I don't think anything is sufficient to keep the commodity forces at bay," I Eunice said. "You can't fight it. It's like trying to fight the future."      " 	You can't kick against the goads.  8 	See how long Sun lasts outside the Intel camp.  PerhapsA 	someone gets a clue at the Sun BOD level and mentions:  "we sure < 	are spending a lot of money on R&D, by the way ... have youB 	heard how much money HP is saving ditching their CPU?"  Of course? 	I fully expect someone on the Sun BOD would think that but not B 	say it or face a VERY NASTY crosscheck into the boards by Scotty.   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:42:30 -0500 A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> - Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ... . Message-ID: <3e47e487$1_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  5 "Baby Peanut" <baby_p_nut@yahoo.com> wrote in message 5 news:c5cf6e8.0302100828.22bfaed@posting.google.com... 5 > bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message 8 news:<d7791aa1.0302061335.6341e20@posting.google.com>..., > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7641 > G > Don't forget that the Hammer runs 32-bit code faster than the Itanic.  > @ > People will buy the Hammer as a cheap, fast Pentium substitue.  L Don't forget that Intel will make faster and cheaper IA32 chips than Hammer.H People will buy Intel IA32 chips, because the system builders won't haveF much to gain from using AMD over IA32 for the volume "Pentium" market.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:03:26 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> - Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5 years ... K Message-ID: <OPR1a.633646$F2h1.512899@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:Ogn1rPEPpaY3@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > In articleE <cNQ1a.633543$F2h1.55355@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John  Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  > > > > > http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/news/article/1304/D > > However, representatives from Compaq have stated that the Alpha, onceE > > the king of processors, will be able to differentiate itself less  and D > > less from other (Intel) 64-bit processors within the foreseeableE > > future, and as a result, Compaq has decided to abandon Alpha, and  cash( > > in while it's still worth something. > > ? > > "This is a very bold move for us," said Rich Marcello, vice 	 president B > > and general manager for Compaq's performance systems group. He noted E > > that the Alpha road map extended for several more years, but that ; > > starting around 2004, when the chip would have competed  head-to-headE > > against Intel's Itanium, its performance advantage would begin to E > > erode significantly. "When we looked at our road map and overlaid  it< > > with Intel's road map, we found there was no substantial performance A > > benefit," he said. "Basically, we are saying that we couldn't . > > differentiate ourselves at the CPU level." > >  > & > Yes of course... and Eunice concurs:    E Microsoft sells shit every day by practicing the 'Big Lie'  theory of D propaganada - a technique highly refined by one Josef Goebbels - theE same technique that Ashcroft et al. also use to make you believe that B a national identity card and 'Total Informational Awareness" about> every citizen will make you safer. Think about it when you get? randomly stopped on the sidewalk and are asked for your papers.      > F > While Sun deserves credit for proving that powerful Unix servers can compete B > against Intel systems, it's clear computers using Sun processors
 eventually= > will be inundated, said Illuminata analyst Jonathan Eunice.  > D > "I don't think anything is sufficient to keep the commodity forces at bay," > Eunice said.  E As in "Microsoft Windows is the most widely used o/s therefore we all  should use it."???  F If you believe that Linux *should* be developed if for no other reasonA than as a counter to Microsoft, they you should also believe that @ Alpha and other processors ought to be developed as a counter to Intel.    ; "You can't fight it. It's like trying to fight the future." F Like trying to fight GMO's? Those pesky naturally evolved tomato's andD other fruits, vegetables, grains, and animals can't possibly be goodE for you because they don't line some big corporation's pockets. As in ' "Get over it, they're good for you."???   ; "You can't fight it. It's like trying to fight the future." ? As in "Hollywood and their dicates are the only form of culture  allowed globally.???  ; "You can't fight it. It's like trying to fight the future."   As in "Resistance is futile."???   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:30:38 -0000 * From: "John Travell" <john@travell.uk.net>  Subject: Re: More dumb questions6 Message-ID: <b27rg2$19jem7$1@ID-120847.news.dfncis.de>  - "jasper" <jasper@never.tell> wrote in message 2 news:dodd4vo9g600nor1d2j80it2pvf9noltm2@4ax.com...H > On Sun, 09 Feb 2003 14:25:57 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> > wrote:! A big chunk ommitted for brevity.  > > B > >For the record, there are no dumb questions.  I agree with your suggestion that J > >the answers be a bit more precise.  The person asking the question will type the@ > >command exactly as you specify it.  Always keep that in mind. > >  > >Dave F >  Hear, hear! I second that. VMS, so far, is like being handed a bookB > written  in Greek and being asked to learn Greek from it. I am aA > Windows and Linux man, entirely new to VMS. All help is greatly  > appreciated. >  > J Personally I would see it as the other way round, VMS commands are for theI most part english language statements that do things generally consistent 7 with the common useage context of the terms being used.   D Clearly this is more likely to be a problem for someone who's nativeL language is not english, or perhaps some who use of english is substantiallyK non-standard, but I believe that attempting to introduce someone who is not K familiar with any CLI at all to DCL would be much easier than to any of the  Unix shells.  L True I now view this from a perspective of 20 years experience with VMS, butK I do remember the days when I was first learning about the one true OS, and ) found it easier than falling off a log...    -- John Travell  VMS crashdump expertise for hire john@travell.uk.net  http://www.travell.uk.net/       --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 10/01/2003    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 14:25:57 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: More dumb questions, Message-ID: <3E46AB45.4060106@tsoft-inc.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote:   > Michael Austin wrote:  >  >>jasper wrote:  >>H >>>On Sat, 08 Feb 2003 16:09:38 -0800, jasper <jasper@never.tell> wrote: >>> E >>>Thanks to Bradford and Ken for the fast answers. I have the system D >>>installed, also the motif and tcp/ip packs. Still get no gui whenD >>>rebooting. The system always says "no graphics devices detected." >>>  >><snip> >>2 >>What is the sygen parameter WINDW_SYSTEM set to? >> > 4 > At the "$ " prompt, you can retrieve this like so: >   > $ MC SYSGEN SHOW WINDOW_SYSTEM > 
 > ...or... > & > $ MC SYSMAN PARAM SHOW WINDOW_SYSTEM >    > C >>Did you attempt to start decwindows in the SYS$STARTUP directory? 5 >>Is the logical  DECW$IGNORE_DECWINDOWS set to TRUE?  >> > 5 > At the "$ ", prompt, you can retrieve this like so:  > ' > $ SHOW LOGICAL DECW$IGNORE_DECWINDOWS  >  > Guys:  > C > When making such suggestions to newbies, remember that they *ARE* G > newbies - they probably do not know how to examine SYSGEN parameters, G > much less have any concept of what a parameter or SYSGEN might be. It = > also helps to spell facility and parameter names correctly.  > I > Non-VMS folks likely have no concept of a logical name, at least not as C > VMSers know such. Explanation of the differences between LNMs and D > "symbols" may be helpful, but most helpful would be an example (atH > least) of the syntax to retrieve the info (SHOW LOGICAL, for example). >  > My $0.02.  >  >   K So, you're saying that 'dumb' questions should not beget dumb answers?  :-)   Q When I saw the question "Is the logical  DECW$IGNORE_DECWINDOWS set to TRUE?", I  O knew what was being asked, but would a non-VMS person?  The word 'SET' is used  M in many places, on many systems, to do many different things.  I was betting  " that the newbie would choke on it.  P For the record, there are no dumb questions.  I agree with your suggestion that Q the answers be a bit more precise.  The person asking the question will type the n= command exactly as you specify it.  Always keep that in mind.-   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:51:05 -0800s$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>  Subject: RE: More dumb questions0 Message-ID: <01C2D0F2.6CE18FE0@sulfer.icius.com>  + jasper <jasper@never.tell> wrote in messageo4 news:<himd4vcf70tk4knbab3d8tvo0kddfclhbv@4ax.com>...  E > Because I don't have access to the internet on vms yet, as far as I  > know, I d/l'ed theD > "dec-axpvms-vms72_graphics-v0100--4.pcsi-dcx_axpece" file from the) > Compaq/HP site and burned it onto a cd.a > G > I assume that I can now boot into vms and at the command prompt enters > the following:F > "mount dka500 /over=id". Presumably, this will give me access to theH > file? Now, how do I copy it to my hard drive, and how do I install it?D > Like David said, I need exact examples for this is very new to me. > F > I really appreciate all of the patient help from you gentlemen. I'll > learn this yet!   G Jasper, you may have to add a /media=cdrom to that mount command if the C CD was written on a PC. Windows and VMS have different default diskp@ formats. /media=cdrom tells VMS to expect a Windoze format disk.   Shaner   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:46:12 -0500o5 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com>I# Subject: OpenVMS Boot press release * Message-ID: <b28hg8$dne$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  > http://h18003.www1.hp.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/openvms_boot.html   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2003 11:21:39 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i' Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boot press releaseA3 Message-ID: <rwle1SuG7My+@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  b In article <b28hg8$dne$1@web1.cup.hp.com>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> writes:@ > http://h18003.www1.hp.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/openvms_boot.html  E For the historical record, this page features a photograph of someoneeD playing some sport (looks like a soccer ball except for being orangeI and black rather than white and black), apparently giving it a "boot" :-)t   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 14:18:35 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31, Message-ID: <3E46A98B.2000101@tsoft-inc.com>   Keith Parris wrote:-  b > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E454A38.1546FA54@fsi.net>... > J >>The future of VMS is inexhorably tied to the future of Itanic. If Itanic9 >>sinks, VMS sleeps with the fishes right along with it. I >> > H > During the last port, the goal was to get VMS to run on Alpha.  In theG > present porting effort, the team started with the assumption that VMSpE > will be around for decades more, and that this port will NOT be the2E > last port of VMS to a new architecture.  History has shown that newaB > computing paradigms with new CPU architectures sweep through theD > industry about every 10 years or so, so VMS will need to be portedG > again in another 10 years, and again 20 years from now, 30 years froml > now, and so on.a     Good perspective.-    F > As a result of this mindset, much effort is being taken right now soG > that VMS will be easier to port in the future, removing architectural D > dependencies wherever possible, and putting things that used to be= > provided by the platform into VMS itself whenever possible.e    
 Good plan.    B > So it is not a question of whether VMS will be ported to anotherB > architecture, it is merely a quesion of when.  In the event thatB > Itanium were to fail and Hammer to succeed, VMS could readily beA > ported to Hammer, and it will be much easier to do so after the @ > present porting effort, with its removal of many architectural > dependencies, is complete.    S This is one of, possibly the most important reason, the IA-64 port is a good thing.     G > Because it will be at least a couple of years yet (maybe 3) before itfD > becomes clear whether Hammer or Itanium has won in the marketplaceD > (assuming AMD survives financially), it just doesn't make sense to > start a Hammer port yet.    P While the above is entirely correct, and I agree completely, it sure would have Q been nice for those of us who see a bit of Intel mischief in the demise of Alpha iR to have also seen some of the Intel porting money being spent on Hammer work.  :-)    W It's also a decent idea to learn all the lessons once, than multiple times in parallel.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 20:15:16 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31K Message-ID: <oFy1a.623081$F2h1.226455@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>i  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0302090938.524c3a46@posting.google.com...e> > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# news:<3E454A38.1546FA54@fsi.net>...aE > > The future of VMS is inexhorably tied to the future of Itanic. If- Itanic: > > sinks, VMS sleeps with the fishes right along with it. >eD > During the last port, the goal was to get VMS to run on Alpha.  In thebC > present porting effort, the team started with the assumption thatr VMSyE > will be around for decades more, and that this port will NOT be the E > last port of VMS to a new architecture.  History has shown that newMB > computing paradigms with new CPU architectures sweep through theD > industry about every 10 years or so, so VMS will need to be portedB > again in another 10 years, and again 20 years from now, 30 years from > now, and so on.  > F > As a result of this mindset, much effort is being taken right now so9 > that VMS will be easier to port in the future, removingt
 architectural D > dependencies wherever possible, and putting things that used to be= > provided by the platform into VMS itself whenever possible.t >DB > So it is not a question of whether VMS will be ported to anotherB > architecture, it is merely a quesion of when.  In the event thatB > Itanium were to fail and Hammer to succeed, VMS could readily beA > ported to Hammer, and it will be much easier to do so after thel@ > present porting effort, with its removal of many architectural > dependencies, is complete. >bD > Because it will be at least a couple of years yet (maybe 3) before itD > becomes clear whether Hammer or Itanium has won in the marketplaceD > (assuming AMD survives financially), it just doesn't make sense to > start a Hammer port yet.    8 By the same logic, it makes sense to have EV8 available.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2003 06:37:37 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 313 Message-ID: <xDl4AbfLe0Mu@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  [ In article <3E472B53.3E25D057@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:-  I > ...additionally, Alpha's announced EOL falls within that "maybe 3" year H > span, which still leaves VMS racing full throttle toward a bridge thatH > does not yet exist. Continuing that metaphor, "the AlphaCide" could be> > likened to cutting the brake lines on that speeding vehicle.  ? Alpha's announced EOL included the statement that Alpha systemsr@ would still be made as long as there is a significant market forC them.  That is no different from systems using any other processor.p  B Those who want HP to continue making such systems when there is noA longer a market are doomed to disappointment in this capitalisticr society.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2003 07:55:37 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 313 Message-ID: <18aQYkTO$2CB@eisner.encompasserve.org>F  q In article <cf15391e.0302090938.524c3a46@posting.google.com>, keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:c > H > During the last port, the goal was to get VMS to run on Alpha.  In theG > present porting effort, the team started with the assumption that VMSeE > will be around for decades more, and that this port will NOT be ther* > last port of VMS to a new architecture.   H    Which means that HP (or maybe Compaq) learned what K.O. never figured:    out.  VAXes sold because they had damn good software.    D    If K.O. had known he was running a software company instead of a G    computer manufacturing firm maybe he would have done the 80386 port  1    and DEC would still be number 2 in the market.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:27:18 GMTE# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>i6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31K Message-ID: <qxP1a.633524$F2h1.557501@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>a  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:xDl4AbfLe0Mu@eisner.encompasserve.org...a= > In article <3E472B53.3E25D057@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"e <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:o >aF > > ...additionally, Alpha's announced EOL falls within that "maybe 3" yearE > > span, which still leaves VMS racing full throttle toward a bridge  thatA > > does not yet exist. Continuing that metaphor, "the AlphaCide"v could be@ > > likened to cutting the brake lines on that speeding vehicle. >aA > Alpha's announced EOL included the statement that Alpha systemseB > would still be made as long as there is a significant market forE > them.  That is no different from systems using any other processor.e    C That's like asking in 2003, "Who wants to purchase a brand new 1998aF Mecedes for the same price as the new 2003 model?" Any takers? I think not.  A If HP went to all remaining VMS & Tru64 customers today and askediF "Assuming HP put the same amount of effort into developing them, if weD gave you a choice of EV8x or IA-64 based systems to purchase 4 yearsF hence, which would you prefer to purchase?", I bet the answer would be overwhelmingly EV8x.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:39:26 +0000l/ From: Andrew Harrison <andrew.harrison@sun.com> 6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31& Message-ID: <3E47C7AE.9090309@sun.com>   David Svensson wrote:-C  > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<-> >n  >D  >>- deprived customers of any competitive advantage that Alpha had 
 given themB  >>(starting at the latest in 2004, when EV8 would have appeared),  >  >@  > I am not that convinced of the superiority of EV8 as you are.  >  >K  >>- higher power consumption (more expensive both to run and to cool; less-1  >>amenable to high-density - e.g., blade - use),5  >  >C  > Yes, that is a problem, but EV7 and Power have the same problem.u  >  >G  >>- larger die area (more expensive to build, less room to incorporate8<  >>desirable ancillary features such as EV7's on-chip glue),  >  >E  > I agree. But I don't see that IA-64 in general must have large die   > size.  >  6 There are currently 2 reasons why it has a much larger	 die size.o  , 1	Its on a 150 nanometer process other CPU's* 	like SPARC are on 130 nanometer processes  , 2	It has 220 million transistors, UltraSPARC+ 	and Opteron have <100 million transistors.i  3 The process will change but you are unlikely to see-- Itaniums with dramatically fewer transistors.3    >H  >>- greater dependence upon feedback-directed compiler optimizations toJ  >>achieve competitive performance (which means that the large majority ofG  >>software won't achieve anything like the performance that benchmarks L  >>suggest - especially as existing binaries migrate to newer members of the.  >>architecture than they were optimized for),  >  >B  > All benchmarks (especially SPEC benchmarks) today are made withB  > profile guided optimizations, not just for Itanium. I have seenA  > tremendous performance improvements with IPO on x86 and Alpha.,  >  4 It depends, feedback directed optimisation does help3 for SPEC and it is used by all the vendors, overalll6 it apparently improves SPARC performance for the whole. SPEC suite by ~10% worthwhile for SPEC but not earth shattering.t  A Rumours abound about the effect of Feedback directed optimisationt9 on IPF but some contributors have suggested that it is up  to 50%.   = If true this is a major issue because while it is a practical'7 option for SPEC it is less so for many ISV's because ofO5 the difficulty of defining a typical data set for usen9 during the metering run and because of lack of skills andc! resources from an ISV standpoint.w   Regards  Andrew HarrisonA   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:58:06 -0500mA From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>x6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31. Message-ID: <3e47da1f$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3E454A38.1546FA54@fsi.net...r > David Svensson wrote:e > >i@ > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# news:<3E447A70.C9E253D2@fsi.net>...~ > > > [snip]L > > > I share Bill's concern here. Had the event not been preceded by publicL > > > commitments which were publicly broken by the event, it would probablyD > > > have passed quietly as a normal event in the overall scheme of > > > technological advances.n > > >iJ > > > When a company plays its user base (read: it's lifeblood) for blind,@ > > > ignorant fools, that demands an unequivocal response, IMO. > >D! > > I agree fully with the above.l > > H > > But I suspect that Itanium would not have been so bad in some peopleG > > opinions if the Alpha would have continued to be developed. ItaniumoE > > have suffered and been the victim because some are upset with thekJ > > Alpha retirement. The bad decisions with Alpha made by Compaq does not! > > make Itanium better or worse.s > G > In so far as your last sentence is true, yes - you are quite correct.p > F > The issue on the AlphaCide, however, is not a question of individualG > opinion, rather it is a question of industry-wide perception, and one 6 > that is easily substantiated through random polling. >-  I I love assertions like that.  Please share with us the study, or even thes
 polling data.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:03:25 -0500 A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>-6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31. Message-ID: <3e47db5e$1_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ) news:3E46C9B1.80D61FA3@vl.videotron.ca...1 > Keith Parris wrote:eD > > computing paradigms with new CPU architectures sweep through theF > > industry about every 10 years or so, so VMS will need to be portedI > > again in another 10 years, and again 20 years from now, 30 years from  > > now, and so on.f > L > The problem with the port to IA64 is the possibility that a port to a more@ > viable platform will be needed before EV79 runs out of breath. >w  J Huh?  IA64 is in the top tier of performance for 64-bit architectures.  DoH you really expect some breakthrough that will propel Power or Opteron toG some higher plateau which IA64 will not be able to compete at?  Hardly.m  ? > The confidence level of IA64's long term success is not high.p  J Amongst who?  You?  The less than 6 vocal critics in this group?  Among CS$ types who just hate it for it's ISA?  L It would seem that HP, SGI, Fujitsu, and Intel among others would seem to be confident enough.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:09:23 -0500 A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>t6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31, Message-ID: <3e47dcc5_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageE news:qxP1a.633524$F2h1.557501@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...d >0< > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message/ > news:xDl4AbfLe0Mu@eisner.encompasserve.org...x? > > In article <3E472B53.3E25D057@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"f! > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:1 > >kH > > > ...additionally, Alpha's announced EOL falls within that "maybe 3" > yearG > > > span, which still leaves VMS racing full throttle toward a bridgeu > thatC > > > does not yet exist. Continuing that metaphor, "the AlphaCide"e
 > could beB > > > likened to cutting the brake lines on that speeding vehicle. > >,C > > Alpha's announced EOL included the statement that Alpha systemsgD > > would still be made as long as there is a significant market forG > > them.  That is no different from systems using any other processor.i >  >eE > That's like asking in 2003, "Who wants to purchase a brand new 1998nH > Mecedes for the same price as the new 2003 model?" Any takers? I think > not. >   K Not true.  For instance, I prefer the beauty of the BMW Z3's lines over thevL Z4, or over the Z8's price ;-).  So, a *brand new* Z3 despite being designed$ in the mid-90's is still attractive.  G There are many people still buying VAXes on the secondary market today,tI often at prices higher than a new Alpha with far more power and capacity.   C > If HP went to all remaining VMS & Tru64 customers today and askediH > "Assuming HP put the same amount of effort into developing them, if weF > gave you a choice of EV8x or IA-64 based systems to purchase 4 yearsH > hence, which would you prefer to purchase?", I bet the answer would be > overwhelmingly EV8x.  J What would the answer be if the question was only access to very large EV8L SMP systems at 10x the price of an IA-64 system, with no low-end offering at all?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:31:13 -0500 A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> 6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31. Message-ID: <3e47e1e2$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3E4550BE.8B241137@fsi.net...  > David Svensson wrote:p
 > > [snip]K > > My overall point is that you could at least be a bit positive once in ar while.- > > Is really everything negative these days?- >-J > No, but sometimes the glass *IS* half-empty, and insisting that it isn't3 > leads one into the realms of denial and delusion.  >d  K Sometimes it is.  Nonetheless, urinating in the glass to fill it up doesn'tn help.    Reality check:  L Alpha development ends with EV79.  NOTHING will stop that inevitable action.F No amount of complaining and wishful thinking.  There is NO fincancialI incentive for anyone to do anything else.  Tru64 functionality will merge L with HP-UX, VMS will port to IA64, and the HP-classic portion of the company? was and remains fully committed to Itanium as the future serverh
 architecture.e  L VMS ran for the last decade on the fastest, most poweerful systems on earth.G It was not a magic bullet.  It wasn't enough ON IT'S OWN to reverse the K fortunes of VMS.  HP-classic *isn't* responsible for any of the things that K might have been done a decade ago to change that.  They have inherited VMS.mK What might suprise you is that HP-classic actually has a lot of respect foreI VMS.  They want it to succeed.  They are *not* going to revive Alpha just K for VMS however, and they aren't going to sponsor 2 propreitary UNIXes (andaH which one has the big market share and profitability?).  And*if* VMS canH deliver on it's commitments, then success will drive success.  Money andH attention flow to the groups that are making money, and delivering their	 promises.o  J Despite doom and gloom predictions, Itanium2 is a respectable chip, and weJ are building powerful, mission critical server systems around them.  IntelI has not lessened it's committment.  HP hasn't.  Other server vendors like-I SGI and Fujitsu haven't.  Windows-64 runs on it.  HP-UX.  Linux.  And VMSy2 (which will roll out over the course of the year).  G x86-64 offers nothing to HP-UX, Tru64, Linux, or VMS users that ItaniumrG doesn't offer and more.  It's appeal is to the shrink-wrap IA32/WindowssH market.  It's odds of success are still fairly slim even there, they areG chasing a small segment of the market with a product that doesn't offersI system makers a significant advantage over continuing to use IA32 for thewK volume and low-end server market, and non-x86 systems for the mid range andi mission critical server market.s  L Frankly, the glass *is* half full, not half empty.  You can help to continue5 to fill the glass, or throw rocks and hope it breaks.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:38:57 -0500iA From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>f6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31. Message-ID: <3e47e3b2$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>97 wrote in message news:3E47AD5D.30905@nospamn.sun.com...1 >0 > @ > It really would be better for all involved but most of all you? > is you restricted your comments to subjects that you know and1 > can articulate,t  D Good idea.  Please desist from posting on any VMS topic, or anything computer related.  Thanks.  L Let us know when you get ol' Sparcky up to a performance level worth spit inL *any* process, at *any* power budget - after all, you just said that despiteL it's process feature size, it still lags in performance.  You might wan't to> do it before you lose too much more money and market share :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:55:53 +0000o' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyt6 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Boots on Itanium on Friday Jan 31. Message-ID: <3E47E7A9.3050009@nospamn.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:M > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>l9 > wrote in message news:3E47AD5D.30905@nospamn.sun.com...  >  >>@ >>It really would be better for all involved but most of all you? >>is you restricted your comments to subjects that you know anda >>can articulate,o >  > F > Good idea.  Please desist from posting on any VMS topic, or anything > computer related.  Thanks. > N > Let us know when you get ol' Sparcky up to a performance level worth spit inN > *any* process, at *any* power budget - after all, you just said that despiteN > it's process feature size, it still lags in performance.  You might wan't to@ > do it before you lose too much more money and market share :-) >   4 If you see fit to FUD SPARC in this forum then don't4 expect me not to reply. You chose to spout factually3 inacurate BS don't complain when it gets corrected.n  2 Or does the fact that this is an OpenVMS newsgroup5 make this permissable and remove the right to reply ?v     regardsq Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:39:55 +0000t/ From: Andrew Harrison <andrew.harrison@sun.com>pY Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marvel and Alpha RetaA& Message-ID: <3E47C7CB.6000705@sun.com>   Main, Kerry wrote:  > Andrew, Andrew ..  7 Its always a mistake when you start your posting with ae4 smiley or Andrew, Andrew. It always signals a dismal response from you.  F  > Can Customers using WallStreet financial applications use this as aE  > general indication of performance gains they might expect in their'  > environment?r  >  > Absolutely.  >  6 How do you deduce this from the benchmark results ????  9 The press release points out that some of the performanceh7 improvments are due to what appears to be Wall St being"7 multi-treaded with some being attributed to the GS1280.t  : Since we don't have any numbers for the new re-architected9 version of Wall St running on GS320's it is impossible tot9 say what the benefits are of moving to a GS1280 platform.i      H  > Can Customers using other applications use this as an indication thatC  > they might expect significant, tbd, performance gains with theiri  > applications?  >E  > Absolutely. Of course, they need to benchmark their application toi;  > better understand just how much gains they might expect.o  >  9 Of course they cannot since they don't have any idea what : proportion of the applications performance improvement was9 due to its re-writing and what was due to its re-hosting.    Get a grip.d   Regardso Andrew Harrisond   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:10:28 +0000d' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancyEY Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retai-. Message-ID: <3E47A4C4.8010507@nospamn.sun.com>   jlsue wrote:G > On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:05:56 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 0 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: >  >  >> >>jlsue wrote: >>H >>>On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 15:23:21 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy1 >>><Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:B< >>You havn't looked hard enough, there were a number on this6 >>group. My favourite response being Rob's who pitched8 >>Marvel as the solution to the problem, this was a year >>or so ago. >  > D > That's not true.  I looked all over google, and even put a note inF > here about it challenging you before.  There was only ONE entry thatG > even came  close and, as I said earlier - now for the third time - itt; > was not clear at all why this person's system was slower.  >   ? Well to start off there is Compaqs own benchmarks. The Kingstona; apps benchmark you published showed that a 16 way GS160 wasy< 27% faster than a 12 way GS140, you don't need to be a maths* grad to work out that this was unexpected.   Or how about   http://groups.google.com/groups?q=GS160+group:comp.os.vms&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3D35AD137AAAD411A6BA0008C7B1B12D6DBDDE%40MBCALBEXC03.BENDER.COM&rnum=11  ; Note how they solved their performance problems on a GS160.c  : This was the 11th URL returned just searching for GS160 in: the comp.os.vms archives. I can provide others it you want; but I would sugges that you stop BSing about having trawledo through google.t      C > If you've got more, by all means present them.  I'm interested ineF > learning the issues, but I sincerely have not seen any cases of this@ > happening for  a system & database that's configured properly. >  > : >>In the UK there have been a number of customers who have9 >>replaced GS320/160s with Suns or IBM's because of thesep >>problems.n >>6 >>If you want more information contact you account rep1 >>for the UK's largest mobile phone sales outlet.i >> >  > E > Now this is typical.  You make some attack, and then leave it up to'B > the rest of us to find the proof.  If you can't back up your ownD > claims, then stop making them.  It is not our job to validate your
 > statements.a  A I will do you a deal, the guy who founded the company is a friendsC and I don't want to embarass him, the GS320's were never a sensibleu< choice. So I will email you the name of the company, you can< check with your local account rep and then once you have you= can eat dirt in public without mentioning name of the companyr who had to make the switch.-   Is that a deal ?   regardso Andrew Harrisone   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:38:02 +0000a' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancykY Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retair. Message-ID: <3E47C75A.6060201@nospamn.sun.com>   jlsue wrote:G > On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:10:28 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyl0 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: > F >>>Now this is typical.  You make some attack, and then leave it up toC >>>the rest of us to find the proof.  If you can't back up your own E >>>claims, then stop making them.  It is not our job to validate yourt >>>statements. >>C >>I will do you a deal, the guy who founded the company is a friendfE >>and I don't want to embarass him, the GS320's were never a sensiblel> >>choice. So I will email you the name of the company, you can> >>check with your local account rep and then once you have you? >>can eat dirt in public without mentioning name of the companye >>who had to make the switch.a >> >>Is that a deal ? >  > G > Not really.  I don't doubt it's possible, but it's also possible that H > the GS320 could perform very well if configured/managed correctly - we7 > have nothing to base a conclusion on in this example.t >   : Humm. Compaq was given plenty of opportunities to tune the= systems in question. The company in question then constructed 7 a benchmark from their application which vendors had tof6 run, on the basis of the origional non performance and, the benchmark results they switched vendors.  > Generally customers don't just throw a system out particularly< not a cluster of GS320's without allowing the systems vendor$ to do their best to tune the system.  < So the offer still stands, I email the customer in questions8 name to you, you verify it and then eat dirt in public I7 know it isn't that attractive as a propostion though it 2 isn't far off what you are currently doing anyway.  H > So to claim that performance is worse on the GS160 than the GS140/84004 > (i.e., stating it as a general rule) is still FUD. >   > I never made that claim, I simply observed that some customers= had found that the GS320/160 wasn't faster than their GS140'sn9 or that they wern't faster to the degree that people weree: led to beleive from the marketing "collateral" provided by Compaq.   : I also observed that people had to use clustering in a box to get good performance.  8 Both these claims are true as you know, calling them FUD ignores the facts.  = As you also know your claims that I couldn't provide examplese of this are also untrue.   regardso Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:24:48 -0500w From: koskaj@bender.comtP Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland...< Message-ID: <03021011244813.34a1.22795797@alaxp3.bender.com>  N Please excuse while I jump in here, since you brought up one of my past posts.  K Well, in reference to the Google article and how we solved our performance iL problem... It was only a performance problem with a very few RMS converts atM the time, all our other processing was quicker.  Overall, the GS160 took our /L nightly processing from about 8 to 9 hours down to about 3 to 4 hours, whileN we added processing load (about half again as much as what we started with).  P We toyed (did for awhile) partitions to completely eliminate a NUMA effect with M a single quad building block, but found we were much better off using 4 quad  ! building blocks with slight NUMA.e  I And our performance problems disappeared all together when we moved from iN OpenVMS Alpha 7.2 to 7.3.  Everything now runs quicker.  I would surmise this K to be from the improvements/catch-ups of the OS software to the hardware.   J Things like FASTPATH and what not, I would guess.  Yeah, we did some code P optimizations in our application and what not, but that was only after the fact M and was icing on the cake.  Our GS160 with OpenVMS 7.3 has been very good to _ us.M  L Perhaps I was a little hard on the GS160 back in early 2001.  However, this N same GS160 that I disparaged a bit, has more than proved itself over the past P few years.  Unplanned downtime for this standalone GS160 monolithic SMP box has N been about 7 hours.  Yes, we kept it monolithic in the end, since NUMA effect M problem that we had disappeared with OpenVMS Alpha 7.3 on the box.  And most EM of that downtime was from a flaky fibre host based adapter, that the console m firmware now boots around.  = All in all, if I had to do it again, I would go with a GS160.   J Yeah, it was a bit of a bummer in early 2001 for awhile... but that was 2 J years ago.  Things have changed.  Things have changed much for the better.   :) jck
 John Koska( JKoska@you.will.figure.it.out.bender.com  J My views and opinions are my views and opinions, along with all the other ! disclaimers one could imagine. :)f    o From:	SMTP%"Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com"  "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" 10-FEB-2003 08:29:37.59  To:	Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn CC:	 Subj:	Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retain Trust Alpha Retain Trust Alpha Retain Trust?   jlsue wrote:G > On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:05:56 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 0 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: >  >  >> >>jlsue wrote: >>H >>>On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 15:23:21 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy1 >>><Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:w< >>You havn't looked hard enough, there were a number on this6 >>group. My favourite response being Rob's who pitched8 >>Marvel as the solution to the problem, this was a year >>or so ago. >  > D > That's not true.  I looked all over google, and even put a note inF > here about it challenging you before.  There was only ONE entry thatG > even came  close and, as I said earlier - now for the third time - itk; > was not clear at all why this person's system was slower.c >   ? Well to start off there is Compaqs own benchmarks. The Kingstond; apps benchmark you published showed that a 16 way GS160 wast< 27% faster than a 12 way GS140, you don't need to be a maths* grad to work out that this was unexpected.   Or how about   http://groups.google.com/groups?q=GS160+group:comp.os.vms&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3D35AD137AAAD411A6BA0008C7B1B12D6DBDDE%40MBCALBEXC03.BENDER.COM&rnum=11  ; Note how they solved their performance problems on a GS160.   : This was the 11th URL returned just searching for GS160 in: the comp.os.vms archives. I can provide others it you want; but I would sugges that you stop BSing about having trawledw through google.C      C > If you've got more, by all means present them.  I'm interested in F > learning the issues, but I sincerely have not seen any cases of this@ > happening for  a system & database that's configured properly. >  > : >>In the UK there have been a number of customers who have9 >>replaced GS320/160s with Suns or IBM's because of theset >>problems.w >>6 >>If you want more information contact you account rep1 >>for the UK's largest mobile phone sales outlet.- >> >  > E > Now this is typical.  You make some attack, and then leave it up tosB > the rest of us to find the proof.  If you can't back up your ownD > claims, then stop making them.  It is not our job to validate your
 > statements..  A I will do you a deal, the guy who founded the company is a friendbC and I don't want to embarass him, the GS320's were never a sensibleh< choice. So I will email you the name of the company, you can< check with your local account rep and then once you have you= can eat dirt in public without mentioning name of the company- who had to make the switch.3   Is that a deal ?   regardsr Andrew Harrison-   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:30:28 +0000 (UTC)4, From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)G Subject: Re: OT: Java bugs abound in Slowaris 9 ... becomes memory hog!n. Message-ID: <b28gik$66d$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes in article <3E45274D.5080905@vajhoej.dk> dated Sat, 08 Feb 2003 16:50:37 +0100:u >Bob Ceculski wrote:( >> you want fast java ... alpha vms ...  >>  + >> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7679t >h >Bad journalism !M  J I agree.  For an organization who purports to be professional journalists,J Inquirer writers sure do throw around a lot of slurs -- Slowlaris, Itanic, etc.    L And Bob, I saw no mention of VMS in that article, or even Alpha.  I added OT, to the subject line, you can thank me later.  I Alpha/Tru64 was actually a player in the high-performance Java arena, but,@ Dell recently beat the fastest Alpha with a Wintel box running a  P4-optimized JVM by BEA Systems.  T See http://www.specbench.org/osg/jvm98/results/res2002q4/jvm98-20021120-03373.g.html  L In this case, the benchmark is probably older than the JVM it is testing, soL it might be a good idea for somebody to re-test with a fresh real-world taskG before trading in the world's Unix systems for a PC running Windows andc	 Jrockit.    + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2003 07:48:39 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r, Subject: Re: PL/I IVP failure on VAX VMS 7.33 Message-ID: <w8P8GvM0vRiN@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <N7CQv8Ucoxn4@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: s > In article <NX08fYPNQFhg@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:e >> mL >>    I just updated my hobbyist VAX to 7.3 and then thought I'd try Kednos'H >>    PI/I compiler, about time I learned another language.  The latest I >>    download installed fine on my Alpha (7.2-1), but the IO test of thee >>    IVP fails on my VAX.   >> e >>    Looks like the k >> )4 >>       call display(file4,ptr1->pli_file_display); >> , >>    is returning all 0's.l > 4 > Did you install both the PLI and the PLIRTL kits ? >   E    No.  I didn't install the RTL separately on either the VAX nor theVC    Alpha.  I didn't see anything claiming the RTL needed a separate2
    update.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2003 07:51:10 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)4, Subject: RE: PL/I IVP failure on VAX VMS 7.33 Message-ID: <4LoNp7EN$VeV@eisner.encompasserve.org>5  _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEBLGJAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: I > There was a problem building the starlet libraries for the last kit.  IuH > have put up a copy of an older version of the libs which will overcomeJ > IVP failure.  You can find the info and link on our site, www.kednos.com > J > I will post a note when the problem is permanently corrected.  Sorry for > any inconvenience. >  > TomH >   -    Thanks much.  Will try it when I get home.h   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2003 08:44:45 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i, Subject: Re: PL/I IVP failure on VAX VMS 7.33 Message-ID: <rtT4N8tWRTHz@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  q In article <w8P8GvM0vRiN@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:ve > In article <N7CQv8Ucoxn4@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:b  5 >> Did you install both the PLI and the PLIRTL kits ?  >>   > G >    No.  I didn't install the RTL separately on either the VAX nor thetE >    Alpha.  I didn't see anything claiming the RTL needed a separatel >    update.  5 It might be worth a try, but then again it might not.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:50:51 +0000s' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyn; Subject: Re: SKHPC slaps Gartner, naysayers on comp vms ...e. Message-ID: <3E47AE3B.8020403@nospamn.sun.com>   David Svensson wrote:n > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<3E3FA01D.6020509@nospamn.sun.com>...t >  >>David Svensson wrote:  >>U >>>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote > 0 >>>m >>>gG >>>>To be fair to Intel they are doing a lower cost Itanium, trouble isuH >>>>at >200 million transistors and >70 watts power consumption it isn'tJ >>>>destined for the volume desktop, rack optimised server or blade server >>>>market.t >>>> >>>>Regardso >>>>Andrew Harrisonc >>>LE >>>As far as I know Deerfield is destined for rack and blade servers.n >>) >>Sure it is but at 70 watts its too hot.t >>? >>The power budget for an entire blade CPU, Memory, Disk etc ine, >>a 3U 16 blade enclosure is about 75 watts. >>; >>Its also too expensive, blades should cost arround 1-1.5Kl( >>per blade try doing that with Itanium. >>	 >>Regardsi >>Andrew Harrisonr >  > H > With that definition you exclude all but IA-32 CPUs. Are you comparingE > Itanium with IA-32 CPUs? Alpha DS10/20L blades are power hungry andrG > expensive and still they run very good. I don't see any problems with- > a Deerfield in an DS10/20L?e  C No, Ultra IIIi is designed for Blade Servers as is the PowerPC 970..  B However you are right most blade servers currently use lower clockF speed IA32 CPU's mostly because of the heat dissipation. AlternativelyB some "Blade" servers reduce the number of blades per rack to avoid the problem.   Regardss Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2003 10:45:54 -0800, From: mcbill20@hotmail.com (Bill McLaughlin)X Subject: Sysgen and UAF memory limit recommendations for Oracle on small machine (256MB)= Message-ID: <e9cbc4f2.0302101045.2fc5505a@posting.google.com>i  F Is anyone out there running Oracle 9i on an Alpha with only 256MB? TheF release notes state that this is the absolute minimum for a machine to@ run 9i. Now that I have Java updated and the appropriate patchesD installed, the Java installation procedure runs OK. However, it getsB to about 80% and then hangs the machine (after about 5 hours). TheD second time I was able to catch it before the point of no return andD discovered the three Oracle install processes were in RWMPB state. ID quickly added a new paging file and was able to keep the system fromB hanging. However, the Oracle installation immediately died with no error message.  B I have been trying to adjust the working set parameters and sysgemE parameters but this is very time consuming as the failures occur five $ hours or more into the installation.  D If anyone out there has successfully installed 9i on a small machineB like this, I'd appreciate hearing how you did it (page file quota, wsmax, etc.)  E The machine has two paging files of approximately 500,000 blocks eachl and is running VMS 7.3.i   Thanks.  Bill McLaughlin    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:09:31 -0600n* From: "Dave Gudewicz" <dgudewicz@core.com>$ Subject: Re: The importance of ISV's/ Message-ID: <v4fn6cmocv7v66@corp.supernews.com>i  L This morning I sent some general questions about this issue to the marketing manager for VMS.   -- Dave...r  G It is noble to teach oneself, but still nobler to teach others-and less  trouble. -----Mark Twaint  1 "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@arrl.net> wrote in messagee) news:v4dtoo8oivg981@corp.supernews.com...sJ > I understand and share your frustrations.  I believe many of us here do.I > But if this issue goes no further than this newsgroup, it won't get any-* > attention and certainly won't get fixed. >rJ > I'll send some general notes regarding your traction statements tomorrow andnC > see where that leads us.  No names or products will be mentioned.  >n >n0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageG > news:Hfi1a.613387$F2h1.552342@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...i > >v5 > > "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@arrl.net> wrote in message - > > news:v4avsen4mti30a@corp.supernews.com... C > > > Wonder if Bob Blatz shouldn't be made aware of this.  Or Markr > > Gorham.  Orh > > > Scott Stallard.  > >  > > Made aware of what?  > >o* > > That VMS isn't marketed or advertised? > >d, > > That what little they do is ineffectual? > >EG > > That there are fewer ISV's for VMS now than there ever were for alle) > > categories of tools and applications?8 > >dJ > > That what ISV's need is the confidence that the platforms they develop= > > software for have an increasing market share with lots of>  > > price-insensitive customers? > >sE > > Those guys aren't stupid people. While they seem to have a lot ofoH > > responsibility to do things they also appear to have no authority toD > > do anything about it, otherwise there would have been noticeableI > > demonstrations of that authority in the Wall Street Journal and othersF > > leading business publications worldwide, on TV, in trade rags, and > > elsewhere prior to today.p > >aH > > But they probably also know that there's no press like bad press andG > > that June 25, 2001 was bad press, and that if you help one customerbJ > > you might get one good reference but if you 'injure' a customer you'll > > get 20 bad references. > >nA > > Forgive my cynicism and bluntness, but responsibility withoutPF > > authority is a losing proposition for any person in any job. And a > > losing proposition for VMS.> > >e > >  > >r > >  > >v >n >w   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:56:52 -0500nA From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com>t$ Subject: Re: The importance of ISV's. Message-ID: <3e47e7e5$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>   John,t  L Quite often, all that is needed is for the ISV to see the sales opportunity.K I'm involved in some stuff in the defense sector right now, where the ISV'soI are actually jumping at the idea to port their stuff to VMS.  Why?  Well,pI times are a little slow - and we've shown them specific sales that *will*eJ happen if they port their code, plus the lure of follow on sales to others of the same code.   F I'm not going to follow up on this, because I suspect that there is noJ specific business here.  Your opinion of the 3rd party reporting tool also
 seems low.  J I would not expect to see VMS advertising on TV.  What you *can* expect isK that when we see specific opportunities, we will work with key ISV's to getD their SW on VMS.      . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageE news:Hfi1a.613387$F2h1.552342@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...a >e3 > "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@arrl.net> wrote in messageE+ > news:v4avsen4mti30a@corp.supernews.com... A > > Wonder if Bob Blatz shouldn't be made aware of this.  Or Mark 
 > Gorham.  Oro > > Scott Stallard.p >i > Made aware of what?, > ( > That VMS isn't marketed or advertised? >a* > That what little they do is ineffectual? >eE > That there are fewer ISV's for VMS now than there ever were for alle' > categories of tools and applications?  >oH > That what ISV's need is the confidence that the platforms they develop; > software for have an increasing market share with lots ofw > price-insensitive customers? >eC > Those guys aren't stupid people. While they seem to have a lot of F > responsibility to do things they also appear to have no authority toB > do anything about it, otherwise there would have been noticeableG > demonstrations of that authority in the Wall Street Journal and otheryD > leading business publications worldwide, on TV, in trade rags, and > elsewhere prior to today., > F > But they probably also know that there's no press like bad press andE > that June 25, 2001 was bad press, and that if you help one customerrH > you might get one good reference but if you 'injure' a customer you'll > get 20 bad references. >n? > Forgive my cynicism and bluntness, but responsibility without0D > authority is a losing proposition for any person in any job. And a > losing proposition for VMS.O >V >B >s >  >n   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:36:29 +0000 (UTC)"5 From: "John Wallace" <johnwallace4@yahoo.dotco.dotuk>e$ Subject: Re: VaxELN HELP appreciated/ Message-ID: <b28rfd$qg8$1@venus.btinternet.com>m  : "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message/ news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-4W6FXwL5TeV7@localhost... 5 > On Sat, 8 Feb 2003 23:38:39 UTC, "W.B.(Wim) Hofman"r" > <hofmanwb@worldonline.nl> wrote: >d > > Hi All,  > > H > > VAXELN is new to me, but I am reasonably at home in the internals of RSX11M,a > ...i <snip>  G > last IIRC. I can't remember if we're on 4.5 or 4.6. The release notesf2 > should be online from HP but I'm not sure where. >e <snip>   -- > Cheers - Dave. >r  J V4.0 is indeed ancient history (Y2K paperwork? What Y2K paperwork?), but IH wouldn't be quite so sure that the VAXELN release notes are still onlineJ anywhere. I think I remember a V4.6, as per previous post, but evidence is- hard to find. A ConDist archive has its uses.'  I I believe VAXELN along with the much of the E+RT/TOEM part of DEC/CPQ waseF sold off to Smart Modular Something when the organisation was declaredI non-core by Mr Palmer. Iirc, Smart were subsequently bought by Solectron,dB who also own Force Computer which is where the E+RT bits ended up.F www.smartmodular.com and www.forcecomputers.com both offer no hits forK vaxeln. www.hp.com offers no relevant hits for vaxeln; even the OpenVMS VAXoD Software Rollout Report only mentions VAXELN in the trademarks list.  D I'm not sure what level of support still exists inside HPQ or Force,E googling gets nothing worthwhile.. You could try a phone call to your F country's ex-CPQ support centre. Not every European country had VAXELNG support, but there were good folks in France (for example) and probablylG Germany, though I forget the name(s), maybe elsewhere too. Been a whiletJ since I was involved, so things may have changed. Per-call HPQ support mayJ be an option even if you don't have a contract and/or don't have much luck2 here. No idea whether Force could help these days.  5 The Ada remote debugger is indeed highly recommended.n  L There used to be a VAXELN source kit; better off sites got themselves a copyK of that. Dunno what the licence implications would be now that the originalb7 owners are gone and the product seems to have vanished.0  ? Nice to hear somebody's still using this stuff for real though.c   best of luck john  7 Someone knowledgeable may occasionally be available [x]e   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2003 21:41:15 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>$ Subject: Re: Very large disks on VMSD Message-ID: <20030210142001.5EA3BE51.NOFFLE@momos.conceptual.net.au>  ) "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes:n  4 > >>> Heartbreak Deja Vu: Ever drop an RP06 pack?<<<  pC > Heartbreak is being a FE on call on Friday night and hoping it isaF > going to be a quiet weekend as you have lots of stuff to do and thenA > getting the following call from some mission critical customersrD > operator - "well, there was a strange noise coming out of this oneE > RP0x, drive, so I moved the pack to each of the other drives we hade4 > and now they are all making noises .. Any idea's?"  -D > Weekend is now shot and around the clock job starts to replace allE > the heads on all the Customers drives where that Operator moved theVC > bad pack to. First task is to stop and pick up baseball bat as it3: > will be involved in the first task when you get on site.  B Some years ago, a seismic group set u in town. Their head operatorB came from the UK, and brought a RM05 with all of his SW etc on it.D Plugs it in, and drive does not come ready. Drive must be faulty, as$ it could not possible be `his' pack.  F He nuked 5 drives before it came to a halt. The pack was found to haveD a ~1/4" woof in it from being dropped by the airline during the trip	 out here.i   -- i< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.a@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:09:38 -0500s& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>" Subject: Re: VMS source listings ?8 Message-ID: <sicf4vo7efkmakf057ou353fhb400k80v7@4ax.com>  F On 8 Feb 03 10:15:03 +0100, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:  r >In article <NVaSZCoKllSd@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:Z >> In article <01C2CE97.AD9FF4C0@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:   >> n, >>    OBTW:  is it Pee-El-One or Pee-El-Aye? >> p >jH >I always thought it was Pee-El-One until IBM told me it was Pee-El-Aye.; >IIRC their version was written as PL/I as opposed to PL/1.y > E >And at University in the mid '70s I came across PL/C. Expensive booksD >written by the Prof himself a required purchase to do the course. I0 >preferred to spend that money on sports kit...   F I used a language called PL/S at IBM back in the 80's.  Looked quite aD bit like PL/1/I, but allowed you to jump "down" into assembler to do& more powerful programming when needed.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:38:34 -0800n( From: Alan Frisbie <Abuse@NelsonUSA.com>" Subject: Re: VMS source listings ?- Message-ID: <3E47E39A.6095D37F@NelsonUSA.com>L  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:  , > >   OBTW:  is it Pee-El-One or Pee-El-Aye? > O > Pee-El-One.  (The I is Roman numeral 1.  IBM had a great idea about combiningeQ > the best of Fortran, Cobol, and Algol to make the first really good Programmingm, > Language; thus, Programming Language One.)  ' You mean the One-Bee-Em company?    :-)r   Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Feb 2003 16:35:29 GMT# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)s( Subject: Re: VT100 as VAXstation console* Message-ID: <b28kch$dm0$2@web1.cup.hp.com>  V In article <3E45B3CF.25230E6D@gibson2.com>, Warren Gibson <warren@gibson2.com> writes:  / :Now I got a VAXstation VLC & VT100 for home.  r  F   A fondness for fossilized hardware, I assume.  Do you know that thisF   hardware works?  (This being a key consideration in your situation.)  4 :After checking around, I got a H8575A adapter and aH :BC16E cable to connect the VT100 to serial port 0 (console port) on the= :back.  Set S3 switch up.  Set VT100 to 9600 8 bit no parity.y  E   To confirm your configuration:  The VAXstation 4000 VLC series usesaG   the printer MMJ as the console when the S3 switch is set to the upper,;   position.  The console serial line operates at 9600 baud.y  H :When I fire up, I get no prompt on the VT100, no response to BREAK key,	 :nothing.e  F   This is probably bad hardware, or a busted wire or adapter or cable.  
 :Suggestions?i  I   Standard serial communications troubleshooting techniques, as have been I   described here at regular intervals -- Google searches should find some J   of these.  You'll want to acquire a serial line breakout box, and use itK   to troubleshoot the connections and the cables.  You can use the breakoutpM   box to loop back the VT100, to determine if it is functional, for instance.A  F   Or swap out chunks of the configuration, looking for the problem(s).  H   Ask The Wizard topic (7552) describes the general "divide and conquer"9   troubleshooting technique used by most support folks...o  I   I don't know for certain that the pinout for the VT100 terminal DB25 iseK   compatible with the H8575-A series DECconnect adapter.  (Though I believek,   that it is, based on a quick look around.)  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 07:44:38 -0500c& From: Joshua Cope <Joshua.Cope@hp.com>  Subject: Re: What is a Cluster ?& Message-ID: <3E479EB6.408580EA@hp.com>   Dean Woodward wrote:F > The phrase you're thinking of is "Embrace and Extend".  It's been MS > policy for some time now.1  ? Microsoft critics use the phrase "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish."s   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:57:19 -0000o* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>0 Subject: Re: what limits the number of DECterms?+ Message-ID: <b280ih$qo2@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>o  ? "Martin Vorlaender" <martin@radiogaga.harz.de> wrote in messagei5 news:3e4501c9.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de...u  ? > It's determined by the symbol DECW$START_NEW_DESKTOP from thed* > SYS$MANAGER:DECW$PRIVATE_APPS_SETUP.COM. >i. > Somewhen (1.2-5?) "true" became the default.  G However, this is one of the files that gets shipped as .TEMPLATE files.eE So, if you upgrade without merging the diffs, you may not get the neww
 behaviour.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.082 ************************