0 INFO-VAX	Sat, 15 Feb 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 91      Contents: Re: Cluster Info from DCL  Re: Cluster Info from DCL * RE: Commodity PCI NIC cards for Alpha VMS?! EV79:  another broken commitment? 7 Re: Graphics support on VMS, was RE: EV7, ES47 question 7 Re: Heads Up - Next OpenVMS Advanced Technical Bootcamp ) Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS License registration 7 How to Avoid the Almost Certain End of Sun Microsystems  Re: HSZ50 Battery Qs RE: HSZ50 Battery Qs Re: HSZ50 Battery QsN Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market  for it"N Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market  for it"M Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" M Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" M Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" M Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" M Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" M Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" M Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" P Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" foP Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" foP Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" foP Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" foP Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" fo= Re: Kerberos T2.0 field test kit for hp OpenVMS now available = Re: Kerberos T2.0 field test kit for hp OpenVMS now available = Re: Kerberos T2.0 field test kit for hp OpenVMS now available P Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retai) RE: Photographs of VMS booting on Itanium ) Re: Photographs of VMS booting on Itanium ) Re: Photographs of VMS booting on Itanium # problems installing openvms on simh ' Re: problems installing openvms on simh $ Re: Read/Write from a global section$ Re: Read/Write from a global section+ Re: Restore of System to a different Server + Re: Restore of System to a different Server + Re: Restore of System to a different Server A Re: RP06's and Field Service calls -- was Very large disks on VMS A Re: RP06's and Field Service calls -- was Very large disks on VMS & Re: SIMH 2.10-1 VAX binaries for Win32& Re: SIMH 2.10-1 VAX binaries for Win32& Re: SIMH 2.10-1 VAX binaries for Win32& Re: SIMH 2.10-1 VAX binaries for Win32& Re: SIMH 2.10-1 VAX binaries for Win32 Re: Single process debugging Re: Single process debugging( Re: Where to find Oracle RDB information( Re: Where to find Oracle RDB information( Re: Where to find Oracle RDB information( Re: Where to find Oracle RDB information( Re: Where to find Oracle RDB informationI [OT] Windows Calculator (was Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages) M Re: [OT] Windows Calculator (was Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:17:47 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)" Subject: Re: Cluster Info from DCL; Message-ID: <3e4d24bb.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>    norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: > > "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de> wrote >> Martin Vorlaender wrote: ! >>> norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: A >>>> "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de> wrote  >>>>> David J. Dachtera wrote:$ >>>>>> norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:G >>>>>>> I tried this and had to add a line to get the leading space out C >>>>>>> of the date-time string for the first nine days of a month.  >>>>>>G >>>>>> Actually, I screwed up and posted an old version. I don't have a H >>>>>> cluster at home, so I don't have my current fixes here. I'll sendJ >>>>>> the good one to myself from work and post it here over the weekend. >>>>>>D >>>>>> I didn't use the VERSION keyword because it's not among thoseH >>>>>> listed as working for nodes other than the local node. I'll check# >>>>>> that out at work when I can.  >>>>> ? >>>>> Indeed, VERSION only works on the local node. So, back to  >>>>> NODE_SWVERS. >>>>H >>>> Strange.  I am running VAX V7.2, Alpha V7.2-2 and VERSION works for >>>> me on non-local nodes.  >>>>' >>>> Perhaps more research is in order.  >>> G >>> I tried it on an Alpha V6.2, clustered with a VAX V6.2 and an Alpha C >>> V7.2 (yeah, I know...). Will run it again tomorrow on the other 
 >>> machines.  >># >> This definitely is a V7 feature:  ...  > F > So the procedure should test the second character of NODE_SWVERS and3 > if it is 7 or higher then subsitute VERSION, yes?   C I'd suggest something like testing the local VERSION, and if it the B second character is 7 or higher, then use the cluster-wide VERSION instead of NODE_SWVERS.    cu,    Martin --  D                     | Martin Vorlaender    |    VMS & WNT programmer-   Smiert Spamionem  | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de D                     |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/4                     | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 13:48:22 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)" Subject: Re: Cluster Info from DCL= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302141348.1861948a@posting.google.com>   c norm.raphael@metso.com wrote in message news:<OFADB7007E.AB693B8D-ON85256CCB.0058F94D@metso.com>...  [...]  > [imprecise semi-rant on]H > Some of these dates have that leading space, and others do not.  Dates+ > return a space between date and time, but J > most input date formats require a colon <:> between date and time.  ISTM- > there should be a way to control this space K > vs. no-space, and space vs. colon thing.  I wind up with trial and error.  > [imprecise semi-rant off]   C You can skip the colon if you put the time between quotation marks:    $ D /SINC="14-FEB-2003 14:40"    $ Directory DISK$DATA1:[FELDMAN.CHECK]   = ALL.ERRORS;399              8/8       14-FEB-2003 14:40:55.29     Total of 1 file, 8/8 blocks." $ WSO F$CVTIME("1-JAN-2003 11:23") 2003-01-01 11:23:00.00 $   ) So you can use DIR/SINC="''TIME_SYMBOL'".   # You can also use the ampersand! :-)   # $ time_symbol = "14-FEB-2003 14:40"  $ DIR /SINC=&TIME_SYMBOL   $ Directory DISK$DATA1:[FELDMAN.CHECK]   = ALL.ERRORS;399              8/8       14-FEB-2003 14:40:55.29     Total of 1 file, 8/8 blocks. $   6 With the WAIT command, you don't even need the quotes!   $ SHOW TIME    14-FEB-2003 21:43:18 $ WAIT 14-FEB-2003 21:43:50  $ SHOW TIME    14-FEB-2003 21:43:50  @ But this is unsupported (IIRC) and chokes if you add the quotes. [...]    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:16:01 -0800 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>3 Subject: RE: Commodity PCI NIC cards for Alpha VMS? 0 Message-ID: <01C2D444.67B62490@sulfer.icius.com>  D A big thank you to all who offered up suggestions. It does look very+ much like I'll be getting a DE500 off eBay.   G However, I don't like machines getting the better of me, so I just went E another round with it. It turns out there were three spare EISA cards D lying around in a dark corner, a DE202, a DE203 and a DE205. We also< have a DE422 in a machine that could do without it briefly.   F We plug in the DE202, DE203 or DE205 and our AlphaServer 1000A doesn'tF even see them during its self test, or at the dead sergeant. The DE422A though, it sees. So I'm wondering, are the 200 series perhaps not  supported by the 1000A?    Shane    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:28:54 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>* Subject: EV79:  another broken commitment?2 Message-ID: <0SKdnUdg5aJtONCjXTWc3Q@metrocast.net>  L While it's not worth my time digging up the details of HP's 'commitments' toD continue Compaq's existing plans, one of those plans appears to haveC suffered a significant modification of late.  A report in comp.arch   L http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=45022fc8.0302112326.2a1d1d72%40posting.G google.com ) from one of the ISSCC attendees about an EV79 presentation J indicates that instead of being the tuned-to-SOI shrink with 3 MB L2 cacheG planned after EV8 was cancelled, it has now been reduced to an untuned, @ quick-and-dirty shrink with the same 1.75 MB that EV7 has (and aI considerably lower speed target).  A brief (so far) discussion appears on ) the News&Views forum at realworldtech.com   L http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&PostNum=1233&Thr  ead=1&entryID=14653&roomID=11 ).   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 13:10:29 -0800+ From: seanobanion@attbi.com (Sean O'Banion) @ Subject: Re: Graphics support on VMS, was RE: EV7, ES47 question= Message-ID: <f883d5a4.0302141310.2cee5d77@posting.google.com>   B I'm going to ask this, even though I expect "No" to be the answer:  B Would you expext the 7500 work in someing as old as an Alpha 2100AE 5/300, whose last firmware was about 5.3, even if the console was set  for Serial?   0 I'm not asking if it would ever be supported ...  E I seem to recall that the VX1 requires console firmware 5.8, or there  abouts.     C BTW, CompUSA has the PCI version in the store (SF Bay Area, CA) for  $89.     Sean  a Donald McCabe <donald.p.mccabe@boeing.com> wrote in message news:<3E4CF0EC.3040700@boeing.com>...  > I've been desparate to upgrade my Powerstorm 350's to the ATI 7500 PCI on our DS10's and ES20's (all PCI only). The  ATI online ] > ordering allows you to get to find out that the ATI 7500 PCI is out of stock but costs $79.  >  >  > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:J > > Cool.  I'm sure someone will buy one and try it once we relase the SW.N > > AFAIK, we haven't even gotten production cards yet, since the initial ones* > > had a problem with hot-swap PCI slots. > >  > > 8 > > "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message+ > > news:31JAN200311590098@gerg.tamu.edu...  > > B > >>In article <3e3ab042_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" > > 7 > > <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes...  > >  > >>} = > >>}"Sean O'Banion" <seanobanion@attbi.com> wrote in message < > >>}news:f883d5a4.0301310831.1df1133b@posting.google.com...L > >>}> > Yes.  ATI is more-or-less making a PCI version of the 7500 just for > >  > > us > > M > >>}> > (I think because we're the only ones who asked).  The plan is for it  > >  > > to > > M > >>}> > be supported anywhere a VX1 can be plugged in - which is pretty much L > >>}> > all the EV6 platforms.  We are using the PCI version for debug, and > >  > > are  > > D > >>}> > using XP1000's, DS10's, DS20's, ES45's, and Marvel systems. > >>}> >H > >>}> > Note:  We may or may not "support" the XP1000 - or at least notJ > >>}> > support multi-head on it - it needs new firmware that hasn't been > > 	 > > done.  > >  > >>}>L > >>}> Does this mean that there is a "special" version of the 7500 for VMS?0 > >>}> Or can I use the $76 one that Amazon has? > >>}> > >>} L > >>}As far as I know, the 7500 is only available in an AGP version.  I have > >  > > to > > H > >>If you go to the ATI web site (www.atitech.ca) you'll find that theyI > >>have a PCI version (you can even buy one from their online store - at I > >>least, I assume you can: I couldn't get to their online store page as H > >>it didn't like Netscape 303's SSL options due to insufficient bits). > >>N > >>See, for example, the second line in the system specifications section of: > >>; > >>http://mirror.ati.com/products/pc/radeon7500/specs.html  > >>I > >>(which doesn't mention the Itanium, BTW). It is also mentioned in the ) > >>monitor support section on that page.  > >> > >>--- Carl > >  > >  > >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:19:23 -0800 & From: Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com>@ Subject: Re: Heads Up - Next OpenVMS Advanced Technical Bootcamp, Message-ID: <3E4D878B.5060008@gregcagle.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote: > Ken Farmer wrote:  > > >>"David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# >>news:3E4B0DBD.AFCB3DD7@fsi.net...  >> >>>Sue Skonetski wrote:  >>> J >>>>Previously known as the OpenVMS Symposium will be the week of November >>>>10th 2003. >>> 9 >>>Happen to know if dates have been set for HP-ETS 2003?  >>% >>OpenVMS.org: OpenVMS Related Events . >>http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Events >  > G > Mention of OpenVMS is conspicuous by its absence on the Interex event 3 > site. Look at the submissions pages for examples.   H If you mean in the topic areas for HP World submission, that is correct.> There have been, however, a few Tru64 submissions to HP World.  H > (Cross-posted to comp.org.decus. Anyone know if there's a Usenet group# > for Interex and/or its symposia?)   H Not specifically. Most of the relevant discussion is held on the 3000-L,A a listserv for 3000/MPE users. It is mirrored to comp.sys.hp.mpe.    --  
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 23:22:35 GMT % From: Milton <mbhewitt@optonline.net> 2 Subject: Re: Hobbyist OpenVMS License registration8 Message-ID: <sguq4vsj35h1tt29r2b1ocr03fp5oqjdtk@4ax.com>  F On 14 Feb 2003 07:26:06 -0600, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  b >In article <b2htd101fgt@enews1.newsguy.com>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> writes:( >> Joe Kreuzer <jk@igm-group.com> wrote:A >>> I want to get a license for the OpenVMS Hobbyist version from 
 >>> Montegar. @ >>> I am using Charon VAX-emulator on a windows PC. I can selectG >>> CHARON-VAX as CPU type at the registration form but from where do I ! >>> get the CPU serial number ???  >>  L >> Does this mean that there is once again a Hobbyist Version of Charon VAX? > ) >   Yep.  Downloaded it myself last week.    You have an URL for that?    Cheers,  Milton   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 20:26:40 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) @ Subject: How to Avoid the Almost Certain End of Sun Microsystems3 Message-ID: <r3PhEhh5xijf@eisner.encompasserve.org>   , 	Very good read found via realworldtech.com.   	Cringely is a wise one.  1 	Here are a few lift quotes to whet the appetite:   6 http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030213.html  L Sun did not invent the engineering workstation, but they certainly perfectedG it.  But where are workstations today?  Gone, for the most part.  Sun's M workstation business is about the same size as SGI's, which is to say small.  F Sun is now a server company, but that won't last long either under theK onslaught of Linux.  Cheap Intel and AMD hardware running Linux is going to J kill Sun unless the company does something so stop it, which they aren't.   O So here is the prognosis.  Sun lost $2 billion last year and will probably lose O another $2 billion this year.  At that rate, the company has at most five years N to live.  They have just renewed a commitment to the Solaris operating system,N which is no longer really viable from an economic standpoint.  I know, I know,K Solaris users love Solaris, but they don't love Solaris prices.  And with a K falling market share, Sun can't afford to make Solaris any cheaper.  Sun is M having the same problem in hardware where their SPARC architecture is falling N behind, and -- worse still -- has lost nearly all of its manufacturing supportO in Japan.  Both Solaris and SPARC will absorb vast sums in the coming years and @ yield absolutely no increase in Sun's market share as a result.      ---   @ 	Interestingly enough, perhaps the same analysis applies to AIX.  ; 	Wont' spoil it with too many other comments.  It is a good  	read... and oh the parallels!   				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:41:44 GMT 0 From: "P. Thompson" <thompson-nospam@new.rr.com> Subject: Re: HSZ50 Battery Qs I Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0302141442100.8617-100000@malacandra.localnet>   H Some misguided soul posted this procedure in comp.org.decus.  Google is  your friend.  * On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Mark D. Jilson wrote:  G > I know that it sounds very unfair but I don't make the rules.  An HSZ H > owner that needs the serial number reset for ANY reason has to pay $$$G > either via a service contract or on a per-call basis.  The details on J > how this is done are company confidential and it would be a disciplinaryI > offense for an employee to tell you or to do the work without following  > procedure. >  > Manser wrote:  > > But i have one question: > > G > > what happens when that Battery goes flat ? and what i to do in that  > > situation ? ? > > about the secret way to get the serial number back, i still  > > interested.  > >  > > Nazim Manser.  >  >    --  6 Lord, protect me from those to whom you speak directly* Leave the nospam in, correct email address   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:00:11 -0800 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> Subject: RE: HSZ50 Battery Qs 0 Message-ID: <01C2D442.43652F70@sulfer.icius.com>  G In a heart transplant operation, a heart/lung machine is hooked up as a E bypass to keep the patient's blood moving while the heart is missing. D Maybe something similar could be done with an external battery and aG couple of leads clipped to the board - keep the current going while the G battery is swapped. Admittedly having two batteries in parallel briefly H would run too much juice through the kit, which might cause some damage,0 but you might get away with it if you move fast.  H Anyone with better electronics knowledge than me (not difficult) care toE comment? Preferably before someone tries it and something explodes if  I'm wrong...   Shane   * On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Mark D. Jilson wrote:  G > I know that it sounds very unfair but I don't make the rules.  An HSZ H > owner that needs the serial number reset for ANY reason has to pay $$$G > either via a service contract or on a per-call basis.  The details on J > how this is done are company confidential and it would be a disciplinaryI > offense for an employee to tell you or to do the work without following  > procedure. >  > Manser wrote:  > > But i have one question: > > G > > what happens when that Battery goes flat ? and what i to do in that  > > situation ? ? > > about the secret way to get the serial number back, i still  > > interested.  > >  > > Nazim Manser.  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 20:44:18 -0800/ From: chris@applied-synergy.com (Chris Scheers)  Subject: Re: HSZ50 Battery Qs = Message-ID: <754a27c1.0302142044.1837c89d@posting.google.com>   ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E4C5808.A786A4CE@fsi.net>... > Chris Scheers wrote: > > i > > nmanser@progis.de (Manser) wrote in message news:<2178d61f.0302121745.3402e4b5@posting.google.com>... z > > > chris@applied-synergy.com (Chris Scheers) wrote in message news:<754a27c1.0302111218.2fa7c993@posting.google.com>...` > > > > Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:<3E490818.F3421B2@127.0.0.1>... > > > > > Chris Scheers wrote: > > > > > > I > > > > > > I just received a HSZ50 to play with and have some questions.  > > > > > > O > > > > > > The HSZ50 controller board includes a coin battery.  There was some H > > > > > > discussion earlier that removing this battery is a Bad Idea. > > > > > > M > > > > > > However, this setup is about 5 years old, and that is putting the O > > > > > > battery at a questionable age.  Can the battery be replaced safely? G > > > > > > Is there any warning when the battery needs to be replaced?  > > > > > > 	 > > > > > P > > > > > I agree with your thinking that swapping a lithium after about 5 yearsM > > > > > is a good idea, on many (all?) they are soldered in, and some are 5 R > > > > > year, some are 10 year life. You will lose the configuration data of theP > > > > > drives (that is what they back up), but in twin controller situations,Q > > > > > you've got it written to the other controller, right? Also you can save R > > > > > the config to the drives, but beware the overhead on controller start up% > > > > > as it reads all the drives.  > > > >  > > > > 9 > > > > The batteries (CR2032) on my HSZ50s are socketed.  > > > > K > > > > I'm not particularly worried about the configuration.  I can always  > > > > recreate it. > > > > K > > > > My main concern is a previous discussion that implied that removing L > > > > the battery could result in the loss of the serial number, rendering! > > > > the HSZ50 a paper weight:  > > > > x > > > > http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3df3c689%240%242229%24e4fe514c%40dreader6.news.xs4all.nl > > > > L > > > > Instead of finding out the hard way, I would like to know whether or+ > > > > not I should be worried about this.  > > > >  > > > > Thanx! > > > K > > > I made the painful experience some months ago, but i was obligated to  > > > disconnectH > > > the (CR2032 Lithium Battery because the HSZ50 had a bugcheck whileJ > > > performing selftests. i could not access the CLI. (i didn't that for > > > joke)  > > > K > > > so for all people i strongly discourage to disconnect them, if you do  > > > so6 > > > your controller will be unusable  (see my posts)& > > >                         -------- > > >  > > > But i have one question: > > > I > > > what happens when that Battery goes flat ? and what i to do in that  > > > situation ? A > > > about the secret way to get the serial number back, i still  > > > interested.  > > G > > That is my concern too.  Sooner or later these batteries will fail.  > > 5 > > Do the HSZ controllers have a built in time bomb?  > G > ...and/or what is the expectable lifespan of the battery in question?     @ The shelf life for these cells is normally quoted as five years.  G This is reduced by however much energy is drawn from them while in use.   6 My HSZ50s are about five years old.  Thus my question.   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Feb 2003 20:34:37 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)W Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market  for it" 6 Message-ID: <b2jjst$1db8pr$2@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  / In article <3E4D4047.84B3C150@vl.videotron.ca>, 3 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:  > G > And it was also a strategic move to position IBM as an alternative to P > Microsoft. Look at the german government who, in an attempt to wein itself forH > the microsoft monopoly, contracted with IBM to offer Linux desktops to: > government workers in competition to microsoft desktops.  : Got a URl for this??  I could sure use some more examples.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:46:35 +0100 B From: Michiel Erens <I.dont.want.spam@this.mailaddress.is.invalid>W Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market  for it" 7 Message-ID: <3E4D63BB.62BD@this.mailaddress.is.invalid>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 1 > In article <3E4D4047.84B3C150@vl.videotron.ca>, < >         JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: > > G > > And it was also a strategic move to position IBM as an alternative  F > > to Microsoft. Look at the german government who, in an attempt to C > > wein itself for the microsoft monopoly, contracted with IBM to  A > > offer Linux desktops to government workers in competition to   > > microsoft desktops.  > < > Got a URl for this??  I could sure use some more examples. >   / http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2023127.stm    --   ME Posted by news://news.nb.nu    ------------------------------   Date: 14 Feb 2003 20:32:48 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)V Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it"6 Message-ID: <b2jjpf$1db8pr$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  = In article <d7791aa1.0302141116.16a4c792@posting.google.com>, + 	bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes: h > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<9+XRpLsD5whu@eisner.encompasserve.org>...C >> 	Really.  Why should IBM spend money on Linux on Itanium?  Intel G >> 	is shoveling a bunch of money in that direction, etc.  Makes little D >> 	sense.  Science project?  5th or 6th grade?  Funny comment.  SeeF >> 	how they do price/performance wise over the next few years against >> 	Itanium. > > > linux is the only science project I see here ... they should$ > be dropping linux, not itanium ...  C Like it or not, Linux has already proven it's commercial viability. ! Can the same be said for Itanium?    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 11:16:35 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)V Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it"= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0302141116.16a4c792@posting.google.com>   f young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<9+XRpLsD5whu@eisner.encompasserve.org>...i > In article <c5cf6e8.0302131102.168d7fcc@posting.google.com>, baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) writes: , > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7735 > >  > > Shifts Linux work to Power4  > > 4 > > By Egan Orion: Wednesday 12 February 2003, 07:11 > > E > > BIG BLUE has discontinued efforts to adapt Linux for the Itanium, E > > according to IDG. IBM spokesman Ron Faveli said "IBM doesn't have H > > anyone dedicated to working with Linux on Itanium." Favali proceededE > > to explain, "Our view right now is that Itanium is like a science * > > project. There's not a market for it." > >  > > More at  > > , > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7735 > K > IDG attempts to spin this development into a budding feud between IBM and > > Intel/HP. But we think it's just IBM playing its cards well. >  > ---  > B > 	Really.  Why should IBM spend money on Linux on Itanium?  IntelF > 	is shoveling a bunch of money in that direction, etc.  Makes littleC > 	sense.  Science project?  5th or 6th grade?  Funny comment.  See E > 	how they do price/performance wise over the next few years against  > 	Itanium.  > 	 > 				Rob   < linux is the only science project I see here ... they should" be dropping linux, not itanium ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:36:06 +0100 = From: Martin Heller <martin.heller@NOSPAM.for.me.mheller.org> V Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it"8 Message-ID: <3E4D4526.3070706@NOSPAM.for.me.mheller.org>   rmk@rmkhome.com wrote:  ( > Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote: >  > K >>As the article says, that makes sense- there are others working on Linux  G >>on Itanium, while Blue is going to have to lead the port to Power 4-  H >>and, as the article also says, it makes more sense for IBM to port to 0 >>their own 64-bit platform than someone else's. >> > G > I see that SuSe Linux for Itanium goes from $1000 for 1 proc to $1959 1 > for 4 procs, and no downloadable free binaries. H That's not quite true: SuSe 7.2 for IA64 can be downloaded as ISO-Images  . from ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/ia64/7.2/iso/G Another possiblity is MSC.Linux for IA64  from MSC.Software - specially @ adapted for running big MSC.Nastran simulations . The ISO ImagesD are also available for free, a lot more recent than the SuSe 7.2 andE based on RedHat. Available from ftp://ftp.msclinux.com/msclinux/ia64/   C Also available is FreeBSD 5.0 for IA64 from the FreeBSD ftp-servers  around the world.         Yours,	 M. Heller    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 15:09:00 -0800( From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut)V Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it"< Message-ID: <c5cf6e8.0302141509.3c3e3b64@posting.google.com>  j bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<b2ivsg$1cj75j$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>...5 > In article <3e4c56ef$0$197$75868355@news.frii.net>,  > 	rmk@rmkhome.com writes:* > > Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote: > > N > >> As the article says, that makes sense- there are others working on Linux J > >> on Itanium, while Blue is going to have to lead the port to Power 4- K > >> and, as the article also says, it makes more sense for IBM to port to  3 > >> their own 64-bit platform than someone else's.  > > I > > I see that SuSe Linux for Itanium goes from $1000 for 1 proc to $1959 3 > > for 4 procs, and no downloadable free binaries.  > E > I suppose that's cause you have to recoup all your R&D on the first G > sale as the GPL (which covers pretty much everything Linux) lets that G > first customer give it away to anybody else who wants it.  Not a very  > attractive business model. >  > bill  > Why do people think that the GPL is a business model?  It is aF manifesto that tells people to stop treating information like property and just sell services instead.    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 15:10:25 -0800( From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut)V Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it"< Message-ID: <c5cf6e8.0302141510.7d0b19e8@posting.google.com>  ] "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<b2it66$v94@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>... R > <rmk@rmkhome.com> wrote in message news:3e4c56ef$0$197$75868355@news.frii.net... > I > > I see that SuSe Linux for Itanium goes from $1000 for 1 proc to $1959 3 > > for 4 procs, and no downloadable free binaries.  > D > SuSe seem to make more of their money up front than other distros.C > That says more about SuSe than it does IA64. So, you can only get C > Caldera, Debian, SuSe, Redhat and Turbolinux versions at present.  > Looks pretty dead to me. > O > > I can tell you this. NetBSD runs on more platforms than any other platform, & > > and new ports are always underway. > C > So, there is work going on on the PDP-10 port but not on Itanium. 5 > Clearly 36-bit computing is the wave of the future.   D When you write software for kicks not bucks you write whatever turns+ you on not what somebody thinks you should.    ------------------------------   Date: 15 Feb 2003 00:00:17 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)V Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it"6 Message-ID: <b2jvuh$1ccs8h$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  < In article <c5cf6e8.0302141509.3c3e3b64@posting.google.com>,+ 	baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) writes: l > bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<b2ivsg$1cj75j$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>...6 >> In article <3e4c56ef$0$197$75868355@news.frii.net>, >> 	rmk@rmkhome.com writes: + >> > Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote:  >> >  O >> >> As the article says, that makes sense- there are others working on Linux  K >> >> on Itanium, while Blue is going to have to lead the port to Power 4-  L >> >> and, as the article also says, it makes more sense for IBM to port to 4 >> >> their own 64-bit platform than someone else's. >> >  J >> > I see that SuSe Linux for Itanium goes from $1000 for 1 proc to $19594 >> > for 4 procs, and no downloadable free binaries. >>  F >> I suppose that's cause you have to recoup all your R&D on the firstH >> sale as the GPL (which covers pretty much everything Linux) lets thatH >> first customer give it away to anybody else who wants it.  Not a very >> attractive business model.  >>   >> bill  > @ > Why do people think that the GPL is a business model?  It is aH > manifesto that tells people to stop treating information like property! > and just sell services instead.   A I know its not a business model.  I think they call that sarcasm. = I was just trying to point out that when you have to make all 7 your R&D up on one sale the price is likely to be high.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:26:58 -0500l( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>V Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it", Message-ID: <3E4DA572.4080706@tsoft-inc.com>   Rob Young wrote:    M >         All good.  But the battle really hasn't even begun yet.  Give IntelsF >         2 or 3 more rounds of Itanium to turn the tables.  Here is a! >         hint of things to come:     L Well damn Rob, just what do you think IBM, who has already demonstrated the L capability of being in front of whatever Intel can do, is going to do while ) Intel gets a few more shrinks into IA-64?n  Q Intel has shown a remarkable lack of ability in developing IA-64, so why do some s5 people say "just wait until Intel gets a bit better"?   O Reminds me of the people who said, "just wait for windoze to get a bit better".   M Well, maybe those in front are there for a reason.  Ever look at it that way?B  Q There is nothing in the way the Universe is set up that guarantees Intel will be s "king of the CPUs".c  Q So then you get to price.  Bet IBM could compete there for the volume anytime it  	 wants to.e    K >         We'll see if IBM will enjoy making a whole lot less money on AIX eF >         hardware.  I don't see it happening, after all ... they have0 > 	to pay for that POWER R&D infrastructure ;-). > % >                                 Robs    Q Well, apparently that POWER R&D is a bit better at it's job than that Intel R&D. aP   How many years has it been?  How much has Intel sunk into this bottomless pit . called IA-64?  Who has the most to recuperate?  M Dave, who needs IA-64 to succeed for a while, for VMS, but who really thinks M that EPIC is a loser.e   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 11:20:02 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)Y Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" foV= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0302141120.7eb4d5d9@posting.google.com>u  d "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message news:<CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEKKGJAA.tom@kednos.com>...G > I think you misread, IBM is spending lots of money on Linux, just nots
 > on Itanium.e >   7 should be the other way around ... linux is the sciencee$ project, and a lousy one at that ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:45:54 -0500P$ From: "rob kas" <rob@netcarrier.net>Y Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" fos/ Message-ID: <v4qsd2g3hpqfa2@corp.supernews.com>2  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message 7 news:d7791aa1.0302141120.7eb4d5d9@posting.google.com... 0 > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message5 news:<CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEKKGJAA.tom@kednos.com>...iI > > I think you misread, IBM is spending lots of money on Linux, just noti > > on Itanium.h > >o >n9 > should be the other way around ... linux is the scienceH& > project, and a lousy one at that ...    9                       One more pearl of Wisdom from Bob Ce   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:15:22 -0400-0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>Y Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" foD/ Message-ID: <3E4D4047.84B3C150@vl.videotron.ca>o   Bob Ceculski wrote:r> > linux is the only science project I see here ... they should$ > be dropping linux, not itanium ...  # Linux was a coup for IBM marketing.o  I IBM was slowly becoming irrelevant in the "today's computing environment"tL because of its "proprietary, old, big, complex, expensive" systems. AdoptingL Linux has allowed IBM to reach "trendy computing" markets and portray itselfP as a viable "modern" vendor, shedding its image of the old stuffy blue suit IBM.  E And it was also a strategic move to position IBM as an alternative totN Microsoft. Look at the german government who, in an attempt to wein itself forF the microsoft monopoly, contracted with IBM to offer Linux desktops to8 government workers in competition to microsoft desktops.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:04:41 -0600e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>>Y Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" fo>' Message-ID: <3E4DBC59.656CE117@fsi.net>    Dave Gudewicz wrote: > G > How about ----  let Intel do what they think is best and IBM do same.d > K > Then let the market decide which is better.  Maybe, in the end, they bothh > will have their place.   ...and, of course, AMD...r   -- h David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/W   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 23:56:19 -0400s0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>Y Subject: Re: IBM says "Itanium is like a science project. There's not a market for it" foD/ Message-ID: <3E4DBA39.6C7110EA@vl.videotron.ca>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:< > Got a URl for this??  I could sure use some more examples.  J Didn't have a specific URL, but a searche revealed this document which has many examples:  7 http://www.helices.org/commentary/govs_choos_Linux.html-+ http://www.ibm.com/news/us/2002/06/035.html:    I But I distinctly remember the german government passing a decree to forceI competition for desktop.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:34:34 -0500m. From: "Leo Demers" <leo_dot_demers@HP_dot_com>F Subject: Re: Kerberos T2.0 field test kit for hp OpenVMS now available* Message-ID: <3e4d2a22@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  L What you say has some truth to it however the VAX doesn't take kindly to the5 64-bit interfaces fo example so we need to change thetL Kerberos build for VAX to go around them. There are a couple of similar type+ issues that we need to work around as well.lL Thinks are looking good on engineering development/porting side of the houseF then we flip it over to the testing group and let them bang on it someF before releasing it.  Already the testing has yielded some interesting; problems in 1.0 that we have resolved in 2.0 that we didn't8I hear about from customers so the better the testing suite that better the 1 quality of the product for our customers overall.a  - Leo< I'll be sure and drop you a line Brian as soon as it's done. --
 Leo Demers  OpenVMS Security Product Manager Leo_dot_Demers_at_HP_dot_COMF "Brian Tillman" <Brian.Tillman@notnoone.notnohow.com> wrote in message news:3e4bed26$1@news.si.com...K > >Our original goal for Kerberos for OpenVMS V2.0 was to align it with the0 > >release of OpenVMS 7.3-237 > >and to have a VAX port done by the time 7.3-2 ships.h >iJ > I simply don't understand this.  If you write it in, say, C, then if youJ > haven't DELIBERATELY added things to it that are Alpha-specific, it willK > just compile and run on VAX as well as Alpha.  The "build environment" isCJ > identical on ANY VMS platform.  All have CMS/MMS.  All have C compilers.F > All have Bliss.  I just don't understand why HP people insist it's a > "different" environment. > --K > Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot com 7 > Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM.uB > 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." > Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991W: >        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company >f   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:57:58 -0500n, From: Wayne Morrison <Wayne.Morrison@hp.com>F Subject: Re: Kerberos T2.0 field test kit for hp OpenVMS now available& Message-ID: <3E4D5856.CC06B85F@hp.com>   Brian Tillman wrote: > N > >We're working on the VAX port, and we'll let you know as soon as it's ready > for  > >field test. > N > ???   Port it to one, and you've automatically ported it to the other.  It's > OpenVMS.  Just recompile it. > --K > Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot coma7 > Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM.uB > 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." > Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991p: >        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company  O Leo already commented on the tweaking we need to do to the build system to makedJ it ignore the 64 bit interfaces for VAX.  In addition, we're using the VMSO build system, which is DIFFERENT for Alpha and VAX, so there's more work there.h  K But the real issue with why we didn't do both at once is testing.  It takes(H TIME to do thorough testing.  Before the MIT announcement, we thought weO wouldn't need a VAX version of Kerberos until much later this year, and planned O accordingly.  We have to prioritize our work, and it was clearly more importantaK to get the Alpha port done first.  Now that we've accomplished that, VAX is J next on our list, even before Itanium.  I don't see how we could have done& otherwise, with the resources we have.  K Now, if people hadn't wanted documentation to go with the product, it mighteN have been somewhat different - I've spent the past few months working with ourG documentation writer to create a new Kerberos manual that our customersiK strongly told us they needed.  I think you'll like the end result.  The EFTtL version is only about 2/3 of what will be the final copy, but even that is aK long way from just shipping the MIT docs.  Did it take me away from helping J with the engineering work?  Yes, but I still believe that it was the right= thing to do, given the feedback we'd received from customers.e   	Wayne   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 15:37:50 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)dF Subject: Re: Kerberos T2.0 field test kit for hp OpenVMS now available3 Message-ID: <TsQ+C3Bk17mB@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  U In article <3E4D5856.CC06B85F@hp.com>, Wayne Morrison <Wayne.Morrison@hp.com> writes:c  M > Now, if people hadn't wanted documentation to go with the product, it might P > have been somewhat different - I've spent the past few months working with ourI > documentation writer to create a new Kerberos manual that our customers.M > strongly told us they needed.  I think you'll like the end result.  The EFT N > version is only about 2/3 of what will be the final copy, but even that is a+ > long way from just shipping the MIT docs.3  % As well it should be.  Thanks, Wayne.A   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:08:09 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> Y Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retaic' Message-ID: <3E4DBD29.9B5B91EB@fsi.net>    Steve Spires wrote:a > J > I'm not 100% sure of the reasons for skirting around who it was/is we'reF > talking about here, but I'll guess that it's a company whose name isI > along the lines of Vehicle-Telephone-Big-building-for-storage if anyonet > wants to try and translate!n > [snip]  0 Close as I can come is "Packard Bell Warehouse".   ???    --   David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/>   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:37:49 -0800 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>2 Subject: RE: Photographs of VMS booting on Itanium0 Message-ID: <01C2D425.EAB03490@sulfer.icius.com>    OpenVMS BSB, Big Step Backwards. OpenVMS STA, Slower Than Alpha.u# OpenVMS DEA, Dead End Architecture.a OpenVMS TWC, The Wrong Chip.( OpenVMS BSA, Bl**dy Stupid Architecture.1 OpenVMS IFU, Intel Forced Us. (Or the other word)n  4 Or my favourite: OpenVMS PHV, Pointy Haired Version.   So many options...   Shanee   -----Original Message------ From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org 0 [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org]' Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 5:24 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com-2 Subject: Re: Photographs of VMS booting on Itanium    9 In article <3E4C6D1E.9060000@tsoft-inc.com>, David FrobleH <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:- >> 3' >> We use OpenVMS VAX and OpenVMS Alpha.* >>>today, but we can't use OpenVMS Itanium >  > 0 > This caught my eye.  The question is, why not?  C    I assumed Itanium (and perhaps IPF) is TM Intel.  Maybe they can $    bring back three letter acronyms:      OpenVMS AXI      (Absolutely eXactly Intel)0   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 01:29:42 GMT # From: JoeBloggs@acme..spamless..comE2 Subject: Re: Photographs of VMS booting on Itanium8 Message-ID: <jj5r4v8ntojl6bne9th0rdhtbke4n9qjct@4ax.com>  , On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:11:26 -0400, JF Mezei( <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:   >Larry Kilgallen wrote:r >> o+ >> The Register (to give credit) points to:b >> hD >>         http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=03/02/11/2398316 >rM >Horror ! The thing booted with a microsoft windows used as console. HOW DAREi >YOU !  7 Well, out of everyone here (in c.o.v) who uses Windows,n8 I'd bet most, use it mostly/only for terminal emulators.  # At least that's the case for me.   g  7 PowerTerm (as seen in the boot photos) is pretty decent-. (indluding the linux version), as is KeaTerm.    ------------------------------   Date: 14 Feb 2003 21:58 CDTM' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)42 Subject: Re: Photographs of VMS booting on Itanium- Message-ID: <14FEB200321584885@gerg.tamu.edu>m  4 rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net (Russell Wallace) writes...6 }On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:56:12 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge"1 }<kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote:o } N }>Ah.  On the i2000, the consoles serial port runs at 115k, and someone forgotM }>to add a command to change the baud in a "sticky" way.  VMS (to my chagrin)tM }>doesn't let you specify this speed to allow a SET HOST/DTE.  So most people J }>choose to use a PC (which of course, everyone has anyway) and a terminalL }>emulator, rather than running the little hack we have that will change the. }>speed to something more useable - like 9600. } = }I don't understand this - 9600 is _more_ usable than 115000?0  $ You are right. You don't understand.  < Many, if not most, terminals won't communicate at 115200bps.   Why should they?  > Nobody can type anything resembling that fast, even in bursts.G Nobody can read anything resembling that fast as it scrolls by, either.   F 115200bps = 14400Bps = 180 lines at 80 characters per line per second.E Very few printers can print that fast (its nearly 3 pages per second.sG or 180 pages per minute, if the data really is 80 characters per line -a- more if it has any narrower lines that that).o  F Personally, I have found that I usually prefer 19200 as it is slightlyH more responsive - but it is sometimes hard to control the scrolling (viaG control-S/Q or the hold screen button) to see everything at that speed.iE Anything past 19200 seems to be pointless for use with a terminal and A is questionabale for use even with a printer (it can top 30 pagesl per minute at this speed).   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:17:39 +0100h+ From: "Robert Owen" <rob.owen@langwell.com>o, Subject: problems installing openvms on simh/ Message-ID: <b2jmdj$mmu$04$1@news.t-online.com>,   Hello,  G i have problems to install the openvms hobbyiest kit 7.2 for vax on then simulator simh 210-3.'L I make on Linux with dd if=/dev/cdrom of=vms72.ods a image copy to harddisk.D I boot the simh simulator with ./vax vms.ini. Here the vms.ini file:   load -r ka655.bina set cpu 64ms set rq0 ra82 at rq0 vms.dsk
 set rq1 cdromi at rq1 vms72.ods boot cpu  F Then i boot the "cdrom-image" with boot dua1: an now the simh writes : ?42, nosuchfile, DUA1:   what is wrong here??   thanks for helpt   robert   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 03:06:00 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)0 Subject: Re: problems installing openvms on simh; Message-ID: <3e4da088.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>p  * Robert Owen (rob.owen@langwell.com) wrote:I > i have problems to install the openvms hobbyiest kit 7.2 for vax on the  > simulator simh 210-3.oN > I make on Linux with dd if=/dev/cdrom of=vms72.ods a image copy to harddisk.F > I boot the simh simulator with ./vax vms.ini. Here the vms.ini file: >  > load -r ka655.bin 
 > set cpu 64me > set rq0 ra82 > at rq0 vms.dsk > set rq1 cdrom   9 I fail to find "cdrom" as a device type in the SIMH docs.a< I'd suggest you SET RQ1 RD40, and eventually SET RQ1 LOCKED.   > at rq1 vms72.ods
 > boot cpu >aH > Then i boot the "cdrom-image" with boot dua1: an now the simh writes : > ?42, nosuchfile, DUA1: >s > what is wrong here??  I You could have at least supplied us with the output from SHO CONF insteada of leaving us guessing.i   cu,    Martin -- hG So long, and thanks        | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer 4 for all the books...       | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deK In Memoriam Douglas Adams  |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/a;             1952-2001      | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de    ------------------------------   Date: 14 Feb 2003 21:44 CDTc' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)C- Subject: Re: Read/Write from a global sectiont- Message-ID: <14FEB200321440755@gerg.tamu.edu>o  U In article <v4pp84m3k83bcf@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes...b/ }Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> wrote:lI }:> : That is the beauty of Pascal, and Ada, and the Bliss keyword macrosnG }:> : for Starlet.  You don't have to present the arguments in order orl5 }:> : contiguously, so long as you specify the names.  }:> E }:> : I am continually amazed by what people put up with from lesser s }:> languages. }:>t8 }:> That's not beauty, it's 6' of rope to hang yourself. } ! }: You have to be joking, right ?s }  }Not at all. } $ }What happens when the names change?  D You smack the programmer who did such a stupid thing upside the head and change it back.a   --- Carl   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 22:10:51 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) - Subject: Re: Read/Write from a global section 3 Message-ID: <RRFydTlPyr+S@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <14FEB200321440755@gerg.tamu.edu>, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes: W > In article <v4pp84m3k83bcf@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes...w1 > }Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> wrote:aK > }:> : That is the beauty of Pascal, and Ada, and the Bliss keyword macros I > }:> : for Starlet.  You don't have to present the arguments in order or-7 > }:> : contiguously, so long as you specify the names.r > }:>iG > }:> : I am continually amazed by what people put up with from lesser e > }:> languages. > }:>4: > }:> That's not beauty, it's 6' of rope to hang yourself. > } # > }: You have to be joking, right ?: > }  > }Not at all. > } & > }What happens when the names change? > F > You smack the programmer who did such a stupid thing upside the head > and change it back.   D I am not sure about these particular symbols, but for data structureD symbols VMS Development has software that compares values with thoseD for a previous version.  In that manner they detect improper changes0 in Starlet before they get shipped in a release.   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 11:10:24 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)4 Subject: Re: Restore of System to a different Server= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0302141110.354b1e26@posting.google.com>   g SY1333@AOL.COM (Sean Yazdani) wrote in message news:<6f1d9079.0302140649.6bf36e9@posting.google.com>...tG > Is it possible to restore a complete system backup (standalone image)rB > from one Alpha server to another Alpha server that has differentD > physical device names (e.g. from DRA0,1,2 to DKB0,100,200 but with  > same size, and both on 7.1-2). > ) > Any guidance would be much appreciated.  >  > Regards & Thanks   >  > Sean  < if the disk sizes are different, make sure you use a /noinit and pre init the disks i.e.d   $ init dka0: newdisk+ $ backup/rew/image/noinit/log mka500: dka0:    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:02:47 -0400l0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>4 Subject: Re: Restore of System to a different Server/ Message-ID: <3E4D3D55.1356D4F1@vl.videotron.ca>   @ Another thing to watch for when restoring to a different system:  M VMS will boot fine. But when your SYSTARTUP_VMS runs, followed by whatever isiM in the SYSMAN startup database, you may have to make some changes to point toa the new disk drives.  K In an ideal world, you would mount the drives in systartup_VMS with logical G names associated (eg $DISK2 points to "$2$DKA400:", and only use $DISK2 2 everywhere else when configuring software products  J But it is something to check for even if you religiously use logocal namesU since some sofware may have stored a hard device name somewhere in its configuration.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 23:10:09 GMT 9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>o4 Subject: Re: Restore of System to a different Server? Message-ID: <ac05dcc44b.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>i  2 In message <O5PUQxtpr$c+@eisner.encompasserve.org>)           briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:a  i > In article <b2j51b$36j$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu>, "Lonnie Blevins" <lblevins@regenstrief.org> writes:bJ > > We ran into problems with items in the print and batch queues becomingO > > invalid (logical names are translated and specific version numbers recordedaL > > before items get stored in the queue files), but everything else worked. > G > Technically it's a volume identifier and file identification that arecI > recorded in the queue database.  If you do an /IMAGE restore and retainHF > the same volume label on the target disk, I _think_ you'll get print  > and batch jobs to work out OK.  J Not in my experience. The queue database uses the _$1$DUA0: form od deviceI name. Because of this I wrote a procedure which listed all the queue jobsnJ into a file, (using GETQUI) and altered the device names to those requiredJ for the new environment. It grabbed the next time to run etc, and resultedJ in a command procedure which submitted the jobs. I then restored the disc,, deleted all the jobs, and ran the procedure.  K A nicer way would have been to set up all the disks as single-member shadow@J sets. The DSAn: "physical" device names are mapped at startup, and the newJ mapping could be set to match the old. The queue database remembers _DSAn: drives.f   Alan   -- g
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:05:05 -0500 @ From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777>J Subject: Re: RP06's and Field Service calls -- was Very large disks on VMS+ Message-ID: <b2k3qo$9en$1@news.utelfla.com>s  K > I have an RP06 at home. I rewired it from three-phase to single-phase. Iti worksc@ > nicely on the KS10. I also have an RM03 that has DCL problems.  G Mike, you didn't tell 'em about the *other* RP06s from the Rhode Island:G Computer Museum that you tried first - including the one the RICM SquidnK Squad retrieved along with a pile of interesting stuff from the basement of L that guy in the Granite State.  The one where a mouse had built a nest, madeJ out of fiberglass wall insulation, in the air duct, and just what sorts ofL interesting organic cosmik debris got blown in my face when we turned it on.> (Which may explain the persistent rash I've had since then...)  4 Every encounter with retrocomputing is an adventure.  7 Did you ever get the TU45 on the RICM's KS10 to behave?o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:14:49 -0500e@ From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777>J Subject: Re: RP06's and Field Service calls -- was Very large disks on VMS+ Message-ID: <b2k4d7$a5k$1@news.utelfla.com>t  I > Mike, you didn't tell 'em about the *other* RP06s from the Rhode Island0' > Computer Museum that you tried first.i  J Sorry folks, it's been a long day.  That shoulda been RM03, not RP06.  But the mousy bits are the same.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:58:24 +010002 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)/ Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-1 VAX binaries for Win32o; Message-ID: <3e4d2e40.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>@  5 Tim Llewellyn (tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk) wrote:  > Baby Peanut wrote:I > > This version is supposed to support VAXcluster.  Can someone test andc! > > report if it's true?  Thanks!c >rJ > Currently booting a satellite (Simh 2.10-3) on W98 into a cluster with a* > boot node running Simh 2.10-3 on linux.   G I have tried to network boot 2.10-3 on WinME as a satellite from a realhF VAX running 6.2 via LAN server without success. OPCOM messages suggestH that the LANACP on the VAX receives the request and volunteers to supplyF NISCS_LOAD.EXE. Then - nothing, except that the OPCOM messages repeat.H Same thing with B/100 XQA0 and READ_ADDR.SYS (after correcting the valueG of LAN$DLL). At that point, I have no idea where to start searching for  the failure.   cu,s   Martin -- >G                            | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer04  UNIX is user friendly.    | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deG  It's just selective about |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/i;  who its friends are.      | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.dec   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:55:40 -0600s1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>5/ Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-1 VAX binaries for Win32b' Message-ID: <3E4DBA3C.53B50C9B@fsi.net>    Tim Llewellyn wrote: > [snip]D > For those who moan about lack of VMS on IA32, please stop now :-).  ; Sure - as soon as it's a supported, commercial product! ;-)s   -- t David J. Dachteraa dba DJE SystemsI http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 22:07:00 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)c/ Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-1 VAX binaries for Win32"3 Message-ID: <$+eVzbamped2@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  [ In article <3E4DBA3C.53B50C9B@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > Tim Llewellyn wrote:	 >> [snip] E >> For those who moan about lack of VMS on IA32, please stop now :-).d > = > Sure - as soon as it's a supported, commercial product! ;-)c  @ That would be the Charon-VAX product.  SRI supports the emulator= and HP supports VMS on that emulator.  They both charge money = for that support -- can't get much more commercial than that.I   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:23:38 -0600.1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> / Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-1 VAX binaries for Win32e' Message-ID: <3E4DC0CA.C9789EE0@fsi.net>e   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3E4DBA3C.53B50C9B@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:f > > Tim Llewellyn wrote: > >> [snip]OG > >> For those who moan about lack of VMS on IA32, please stop now :-).a > >r? > > Sure - as soon as it's a supported, commercial product! ;-)t > B > That would be the Charon-VAX product.  SRI supports the emulator? > and HP supports VMS on that emulator.  They both charge moneys? > for that support -- can't get much more commercial than that.p  A Actually, what we need is a version of VAX emulator that does notn require an underlying o.s.   -- 1 David J. Dachtera, dba DJE Systemsb http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/f   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 22:16:07 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)d/ Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-1 VAX binaries for Win32h3 Message-ID: <FZxNejy5xoq0@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3E4DC0CA.C9789EE0@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:a  C > Actually, what we need is a version of VAX emulator that does notv > require an underlying o.s.  E There is one -- instead of an operating system it runs on Windows !!!2   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 11:06:45 -0800: From: craig.berry@SignalTreeSolutions.com (Craig A. Berry)% Subject: Re: Single process debugging8= Message-ID: <7f15589f.0302141106.2046f4e5@posting.google.com>u  h Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<Z$GoUkKGM81N@eisner.encompasserve.org>...D > Using Alpha VMS V7.3 I discover that I have forgotten how to forceD > the debugger to run in the same process as the program under test.   $ define dbg$process nonet  C is what comes to mind, but it's been a very long time since I tried C it.  You might search whatever image the debugger is located in forkE the string dbg$process and see if the appropriate values are visible.    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 15:35:21 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a% Subject: Re: Single process debugging 3 Message-ID: <9fCfNkH7UQlE@eisner.encompasserve.org>R  z In article <7f15589f.0302141106.2046f4e5@posting.google.com>, craig.berry@SignalTreeSolutions.com (Craig A. Berry) writes:j > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<Z$GoUkKGM81N@eisner.encompasserve.org>...E >> Using Alpha VMS V7.3 I discover that I have forgotten how to forcesE >> the debugger to run in the same process as the program under test.  >  > $ define dbg$process none- > E > is what comes to mind, but it's been a very long time since I triedu > it.j  D Thank you, thank you !  I have found it on page 14-26 (section 14.9)C by doing a text search for the string.  The description I found foroF it was restricted to the case where LCK$M_DEQALL is used by the targetC program, and the title for that section is "Debugging Programs Thatw5 Perform Synchronization or Communications Functions."e  B I shall certainly send a comment to openvmsdoc@<company>.com aboutE the topic and the lack of indexing (the string appears 5 times in them7 manual but is not listed in Section B.2, Logical Names.h   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 11:12:57 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i1 Subject: Re: Where to find Oracle RDB information 3 Message-ID: <wDMK14dcF$Lz@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  Q In article <00A1B7DB.E3755928.2@decus.de>, Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> writes:w. > "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote: > H >> Javascript is NOT insecure, Java and ActiveX yes, but not Jacascript!K >> Don't want to believe that, then spend some time investigating it but inoG >> every CERT advisory, the key component was NOT Javascript but rather2A >> that the applications were running Microcrap IE or Outloose...: > B > What about privacy issues? As far as I know using JavaScript theE > server-side program (i.e., the web server application) can gather atB > lot of information from your computer you don't want to disclose > intentionally.  ? That only happens if you enable JavaScript on your web browser.e? JavaScript entirely on the web server, such as for "server siderA includes" presents no inherent security problems for the browser, 9 aside from those implicit in not using a robust language.>   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:20:55 -0700n+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>n1 Subject: Re: Where to find Oracle RDB information,' Message-ID: <3E4D4197.7000909@MMaz.com>s   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  R >In article <00A1B7DB.E3755928.2@decus.de>, Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> writes: >  r >a. >>"Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote: >> >>     >>H >>>Javascript is NOT insecure, Java and ActiveX yes, but not Jacascript!K >>>Don't want to believe that, then spend some time investigating it but inuG >>>every CERT advisory, the key component was NOT Javascript but rather A >>>that the applications were running Microcrap IE or Outloose... 	 >>>        >>> B >>What about privacy issues? As far as I know using JavaScript theE >>server-side program (i.e., the web server application) can gather a B >>lot of information from your computer you don't want to disclose >>intentionally. >>     >> > @ >That only happens if you enable JavaScript on your web browser.@ >JavaScript entirely on the web server, such as for "server sideB >includes" presents no inherent security problems for the browser,: >aside from those implicit in not using a robust language. >o >  t >fD Privacy and security are two different things, and yet you use them ? interchangeably...  There is nothing that Javascript can do to -B compromise the security or integrity of your system.  Yes, it can > disclose characteristics of your OS, browser, versions, video D configurations, etc, but that is a privacy, not a  security issue.  F Again, if you exclude Microcrap, there have been no documented system F compromises or losses of system integrity because of Javascript!  You D can refuse to use JS, and that is your right, but you cannot expect H sites to function properly and I suppose that gives you the prerogative H to whine about it, but that isn't going to change the fact that JS is a H key part of most sites on the web.  Ignoring that isn't going to change > it and is no different than putting your head into the sand...   Barryw   -- o  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028t   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:38:51 +0000 (UTC)t+ From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)v1 Subject: Re: Where to find Oracle RDB informationn+ Message-ID: <b2jd3r$mmv$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   Q In article <00A1B7DB.E3755928.2@decus.de>, Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> writes:e- >"Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote:s >oH >> Javascript is NOT insecure, Java and ActiveX yes, but not Jacascript!K >> Don't want to believe that, then spend some time investigating it but in G >> every CERT advisory, the key component was NOT Javascript but ratherbA >> that the applications were running Microcrap IE or Outloose...e > M Java was designed to be secure (though sometimes the implementation had a fewmL problems) through the concept of a sandbox. Neither ActiveX (which relied onM code being signed as a measure of how much it could be trusted) or Javascript-+ was designed with as much security in mind.o  0 See http://polaris.umec.edu/~mgaylor/Issues.html  B Vulnerabilities are not just limited to IE and Microsoft platformsB for instance there have been vulnerabilities in Opera on Linux see  ( http://www.guninski.com/opera1-desc.html            A >What about privacy issues? As far as I know using JavaScript theaD >server-side program (i.e., the web server application) can gather aA >lot of information from your computer you don't want to disclosej >intentionally.o >a  9 Yes Privacy is one of the major concerns with Javascript.      >Michael    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 15:24:57 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)m1 Subject: Re: Where to find Oracle RDB information 3 Message-ID: <ffb$jzgzhd4z@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  U In article <3E4D4197.7000909@MMaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes:I  F > Privacy and security are two different things, and yet you use them A > interchangeably...  There is nothing that Javascript can do to d6 > compromise the security or integrity of your system.  D If the computer does something other than what I want, that would beJ a lapse of security.  JavaScript is responsible for web browser "pop-ups".   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 01:10:03 GMTcL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")1 Subject: Re: Where to find Oracle RDB information.6 Message-ID: <00A1B7D4.60FC2391@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  c In article <wDMK14dcF$Lz@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:pR >In article <00A1B7DB.E3755928.2@decus.de>, Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> writes:/ >> "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote:  >> cI >>> Javascript is NOT insecure, Java and ActiveX yes, but not Jacascript!yL >>> Don't want to believe that, then spend some time investigating it but inH >>> every CERT advisory, the key component was NOT Javascript but ratherB >>> that the applications were running Microcrap IE or Outloose... >>  C >> What about privacy issues? As far as I know using JavaScript theoF >> server-side program (i.e., the web server application) can gather aC >> lot of information from your computer you don't want to disclose- >> intentionally.e >0@ >That only happens if you enable JavaScript on your web browser.@ >JavaScript entirely on the web server, such as for "server sideB >includes" presents no inherent security problems for the browser,: >aside from those implicit in not using a robust language.  G I am unaware of any utility in using (or support for using) server-sideeH JavaScript on any web servers.  Java, yes.  I suppose it's theoreticallyK possible, given that it's a scripting language, and that (IIRC) part of themJ Mozilla development has been in putting together a JavaScript engine whichN you could rip out of Mozilla and use elsewhere, but I haven't heard of anybody actually doing it.   -- Alan   O ===============================================================================a0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025cO ===============================================================================/   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2003 13:24:37 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)R Subject: [OT] Windows Calculator (was Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages)= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302141324.1ef9ca59@posting.google.com>:  c Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> wrote in message news:<3e477b36_3@news.chariot.net.au>...  [...]OJ > Someone please tell me my figures aren't worth the Windows Calculator I 4 > did them on - I'm about the power everything down.  @ Not that I'm a big fan of Microsoft, but what's wrong with theirB calculator? I find it interesting that you can divide 2 by 3, thenB multiply by 3 and you get exactly 2 back because it keeps track ofE divisors! You can also take the sin of pi radians and you get exactlyhD zero! My HP calculator (it's old, though) doesn't do that. Moreover,B you can divide 2 by 3, then by 7, then multiply it all back to getD exactly 2! It works with rational numbers in some (probably limited) sense.  D OTOH, you might not want your calculator to do that (re sine of pi =D 0) if when it says 3.1415926535897932384626433832795 you really want' it to mean exactly that and not pi. OK..  = But still, what's so bad about it? Is it inaccurate for fancysC calculations like the factorials of non-integral numbers? I haven't  tested it so I don't know.  F I do hate using the mouse, so that part I don't like if I need buttonsF for which the keyboard equivalents are difficult to memorize. But hey,/ I have to put up with that all the time anyway.   @ Interestingly, it says that 0**0 is 1. I always thought that wasC undefined, but in a way it actually makes a lot of sense. Any other,D number to the zeroth power is 1. And the limit of x**0 as x --> 0 isD 1, so why not define it that way? Also, zero to the minus one is 1/0D which could be taken to imply that the 1 is zero to the zeroth powerC (0**0). Otherwise, why would you use it as a numerator (1, i.e.) toi
 get 0**-1?  C BTW, I haven't checked out regular physical calculators in years. Ia? still have my HP calculator from the 1980's. So I am not at allE3 familiar with what current phsycial calculators do.a   [...]4   Disclaimer: JMHO   ------------------------------   Date: 14 FEB 2003 21:52:03 GMT+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>3V Subject: Re: [OT] Windows Calculator (was Re: HP hideousness of the OPenVMS web pages)2 Message-ID: <14FEB03.21520398@feda34.fed.ornl.gov>  F In a previous article, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) wrote: [snip]B > Interestingly, it says that 0**0 is 1. I always thought that wasE > undefined, but in a way it actually makes a lot of sense. Any otherpF > number to the zeroth power is 1. And the limit of x**0 as x --> 0 isF > 1, so why not define it that way? Also, zero to the minus one is 1/0F > which could be taken to imply that the 1 is zero to the zeroth powerE > (0**0). Otherwise, why would you use it as a numerator (1, i.e.) to  > get 0**-1?  D It may be "interesting" and may "make sense" but I'm quite sure it'sA wrong.  IIRC, the proof that x**0 = 1 (x><0) goes something like:m  9   x**0 = x**(a-a) = (x*a) / (x*a) = (b) / (b) = b / b = 1w    but b/b is only defined if b<>0.  > Btw, the CDE calculator responds with "Error" if you try 0**0.   IANAM  Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVtH Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.091 ************************