1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 22 Feb 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 103       Contents:3 Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Official_OpenVMS_name_for_the_?= 3 Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Official_OpenVMS_name_for_the_?= P Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Official_OpenVMS_name_for_the_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE_re' Re: Autogen required after each reboot. ' Re: Autogen required after each reboot. ' Re: Autogen required after each reboot. * Re: Commodity PCI NIC cards for Alpha VMS?% Re: CSWS/Apache 1.3 Log File problems % Re: CSWS/Apache 1.3 Log File problems  Re: Frequent_job.log;32767 Re: Frequent_job.log;327677 Re: Heads Up - Next OpenVMS Advanced Technical Bootcamp 6 Re: How do I restore a system from a non-image backup?; Re: How do I run the backup command with this samba backup? . How to calculate the detached processes on VMS2 Re: How to calculate the detached processes on VMS2 Re: How to calculate the detached processes on VMSH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyH Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyP Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly monopol@ Idea for installing VMS without a 512byte CD-ROM...Will it work?> Image restore of "old" saveset fails to restore VMS$COMMON.DIRB Re: Image restore of "old" saveset fails to restore VMS$COMMON.DIR information with file  RE: information with file  Re: information with file  Re: information with file  Re: information with file ' Re: Initiating Command on VMS from Unix 6 LINEWRAP TPU program (was: Upcoming VMS improvements?)" Re: Madison, successor to McKinley" Re: Madison, successor to McKinley" Re: Madison, successor to McKinleyB Re: Migrating from PSI X-25 to another product (hardware/software)0 Re: New Toolkit modernizes RTR with java support0 Re: New Toolkit modernizes RTR with java support0 Re: New Toolkit modernizes RTR with java support+ Re: ODS-2 read/write filesystem for Linux ? + Re: ODS-2 read/write filesystem for Linux ? ! Re: Official OpenVMS name for the ! Re: Official OpenVMS name for the ! Re: Official OpenVMS name for the ! RE: Official OpenVMS name for the ! Re: Official OpenVMS name for the ! Re: Official OpenVMS name for the P Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?ISO-8859-1?B?SXRhbml1ba4=?= releases and  prF Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?iso-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE?= releasesP Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?iso-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE?= releases	and  prodP Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?iso-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE?= releases	and  prodP Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?iso-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE?= releases  and  proP Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?iso-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AEreleases?=	and  produP Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE_re?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?P Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE_re?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?3 Re: Official OpenVMS name for the Itanium? releases P Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retai Re: Oracle on OpenVMS on Marvel  Re: Oracle on OpenVMS on Marvel  Pathworks print problem 
 print problem  PRODUCT INSTALL /DEBUG switches # Re: PRODUCT INSTALL /DEBUG switches $ RE: Seeking ALPSYSA03_071 patch kit. Re: The End of OpenVMS Re: The End of OpenVMS RE: The End of OpenVMS RE: The End of OpenVMS Re: The End of OpenVMS Re: The End of OpenVMS Re: The End of OpenVMS Re: The End of OpenVMS Re: The End of OpenVMS Re: The End of OpenVMSP Re: unix, was Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly  vs.  IBM P Re: unix, was Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs.  IBM mF Re: unix, was Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- MS Monopoly vs. IBM! Re: Upcoming *TPU* improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  RE: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?  Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?   VMSclusters vs. others' clusters Re: Volume set across RAID5 : What makes the VMS port to Itanium/IPF/whatever difficult?C Re: [TCPware V5.6-2 = BIND 8.1.2]  How to get rid of error messages C Re: [TCPware V5.6-2 = BIND 8.1.2]  How to get rid of error messages C RE: [TCPware V5.6-2 = BIND 8.1.2]  How to get rid of error messages C Re: [TCPware V5.6-2 = BIND 8.1.2]  How to get rid of error messages C Re: [TCPware V5.6-2 = BIND 8.1.2]  How to get rid of error messages   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 13:18:04 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) < Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Official_OpenVMS_name_for_the_?=3 Message-ID: <e2ugVOY1+Ivx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <857e9e41.0302211053.4c43b5c8@posting.google.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes:  > $ > "hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64"       Ouch.   >  > "OpenVMS I64"   F    Better.  Especially when we know o-p-e-n is silent when followed by    VMS.   * > hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 conveys   K    a complete lack of understanding of what makes a good name.  It reminds  L    me of the of "we call it digital" vs. "the customer calls it DEC" days.    G    Going to a name like this could be compared only to 3M going back to C    Minessota Mining and Manufacturing, a mistake they haven't made.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:20:31 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")< Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Official_OpenVMS_name_for_the_?=6 Message-ID: <00A1BD45.3C28D971@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  q In article <e2ugVOY1+Ivx@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: r >In article <857e9e41.0302211053.4c43b5c8@posting.google.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes: >>  % >> "hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64"   > 	 >   Ouch.  >  >>   >> "OpenVMS I64" > G >   Better.  Especially when we know o-p-e-n is silent when followed by  >   VMS. > + >> hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 conveys   > L >   a complete lack of understanding of what makes a good name.  It reminds M >   me of the of "we call it digital" vs. "the customer calls it DEC" days.    > H >   Going to a name like this could be compared only to 3M going back toD >   Minessota Mining and Manufacturing, a mistake they haven't made. >   N I'm sure we'll keep calling it VMS.  But now, if somebody says "you're a nicheJ operating system - we want to use Windows, the industry standard", the VMSN proponent can reply "See -- VMS is Industry Standard - it's even in the name!"   -- Alan     O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025 O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:28:06 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGY Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Official_OpenVMS_name_for_the_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE_re 0 Message-ID: <00A1BD3D.F0BBD3BC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  q In article <857e9e41.0302211053.4c43b5c8@posting.google.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes:  >From: 	Hanley, William   ( >Sent:	Friday, February 21, 2003 1:23 PM# >To:	OpenVMS Systems Software Group B >Cc:	Sidwell, Bill; Smiddy, Karen; Jansen, Elaine; Larrabee, Mary; >Howard, StephenG >Subject:	Official OpenVMS name for the Itanium releases and  products  >  >What's in a name?   > G >Quite a bit, if the name is for the highly anticipated port of OpenVMS # >to the Intel Itanium platform!!!  >  >Official Name> >The following is the official name for OpenVMS on the ItaniumE >platform. This is the full name of the product and to be used in any / >title, header, and first mention in body text.  > # >"hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64"   >  >Informal Name? >The following is the informal use of the name. We can use this D >abbreviated name after we formally state the official name and have& >subsequent references to the product. >  >"OpenVMS I64" > C >Many thanks go out to all those who contributed creative ideas for G >consideration. On considering all recommendations, legal requirements, D >and branding needs hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 became the name.  F If this naming is the epitome of the creative ideas within the new HP,F I'd have to wonder if the other contributions were submitted as slaver droolings on a bib smock.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:30:39 +0100 2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>0 Subject: Re: Autogen required after each reboot.G Message-ID: <3e566ffd$0$43524$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>   > "Steve Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag? news:91947A84607D9D48B8E674A5FAB54DA63CAE56@tahiti.tinuk.com... G I have a recently built system [VMS 7.3-1] which is asking that AUTOGEN F gets run after each reboot, as it does during the upgrade/installationA procedure. Is there a setting in SYSGEN or similar [I don't know, F something like STARTUP_Pn set to UPG?] that regulates this? Have had a quick search but nothing yet.    Steve Spires Technical Consultant Torex Health [T] +44 (0) 1295 274200  [F] +44 (0) 1295 275131 
 www.torex.com    Hello!  . Are you running a graphics display as console?  I I had a similar problem. During startup the system told me that it had to H adjust some parameters to be able to start the window system, autogened,= rebooted and told me the same thing again. I went through the G installation/update documentation and found mentioned, that you have to K adjust some parameter (Ithing it was gblpages, but I am not sure) manually, J then autogen and then reboot. Guess you will have to do a minimum sttartup	 for that.    Regards    Ren   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:01:51 GMT 3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) 0 Subject: Re: Autogen required after each reboot.0 Message-ID: <zIu5a.155$U36.147@news.cpqcorp.net>  A A couple of comments which may or may not help with this problem:   E (1) If you have current feedback before you upgrade OpenVMS, you will F generally avoid the repeated autogens after upgrade.  I.e. the initialG boot, autogen and re-boot will usually get things right -- IF there is   current feedback.   J (Special things happen on an initial installation so that autogen usually  gets it right there, too.)  G (2) Boot conversationally and "SHOW /STARTUP".  The startup file should H be "SYS$SYSTEM:INS_STARTUP.COM" for the FIRST boot after installation orE upgrade of OpenVMS.  Thereafter it shoud be "SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM". , If it isn't, something went wrong somewhere.  E (If you boot the OpenVMS operating system CD-ROM conversationally you ( should see "SYS$SYSTEM:SA_STARTUP.COM".)   --  J       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:40:06 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>0 Subject: Re: Autogen required after each reboot./ Message-ID: <3E567285.AFFCCE18@vl.videotron.ca>    Steve Spires wrote:  > I > I have a recently built system [VMS 7.3-1] which is asking that AUTOGEN H > gets run after each reboot, as it does during the upgrade/installationC > procedure. Is there a setting in SYSGEN or similar [I don't know, > > something like STARTUP_Pn set to UPG?] that regulates this?    MC SYSGEN SHOW/STARTUP  N During the upgrade process, it points to various files that "autoexec" at boot/ time. It should point to SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:36:40 +0100 & From: Michael Joosten <joost@c-lab.de>3 Subject: Re: Commodity PCI NIC cards for Alpha VMS? $ Message-ID: <3E559EC8.41C6@c-lab.de>   John Wallace wrote:  >   N > One other possible option for you might be one of the small selection of PCII > NICs which were based on the DEC 21040/21140 chipset as used on DEC PCI L > NICs. These might well be compatible with Alpha boxes and and OSes. I usedJ > to have a PC rag review with a list of these in. Unfortunately they wereN > division 2 names and I can't remember them or find the article. So DE500 off* > ebay is still probably your best option.  F Right. In fact, a small ZYNX 312 (ZX312) with a 10Mb DEC21040-AA works. fine in a PC164 board with both Tru64 and VMS.  G You could even try a PnP NE2000 ISA card, but it must be PnP. There are B some (obsolete?) traces of such a configuration in SYS$CONFIG.DAT,G but... After messing around with SRM's isacfg this actually worked, but G the box crashed two times that evening with no load, so these cards are ( probably just too junky for real OSes...   --  * Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de* Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany, Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 6060658 C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 14:34:32 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski). Subject: Re: CSWS/Apache 1.3 Log File problems= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0302211434.5a1dc2a6@posting.google.com>    winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote in message news:<00A1BC92.E4762E40@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>...f > In article <b33ms4$1h6u0l$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>, "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com> writes:M > >I've had some recent e-mail communications with HP regarding this problem. L > >As far as I know there is no fix.  The workaround suggested is to NOT use > >theI > >FLUSH command.  So we started renaming the access_log. file during our 
 > >monthly7 > >maintenance window as a way of managing these files.  > L > With CSWS shut down?  ("maintenance window" suggests that.)  Otherwise I'dQ > suggest APACHE$CONFIG NEW followed by renamed access_log.;-1 to something else.  > M > It would also be easy enough to set up a batch job  - I use a cron port for N > this kind of thing - to do APACHE$CONFIG FLUSH every minute, ten minutes, or
 > whatever.    >  >  > > L > >I was under the impression that this was working until I looked just now. > >Sure enoughN > >one or our nodes has a big hole in the access_log during a period I know it > >was > >serving up requests.  > > > > >I hope some HP person will jump in here with a fix in hand. > 3 > Apache fires up a whole bunch of different worker J > processes, and the main process dispatches requests to them.  The workerF > processes themselves parse the config file and write to the log fileP > individually - that's why APACHE$CONFIG RESTART leaves the dispatcher in placeP > and kills all the worker processes, and that way why there was a bug (fixed inN > 1.2, I think) where log entries might be intermingled, because of two workerP > processes starting at once.  That was fixed by having a process that wanted toO > write take a temporary lock on the logfile.  (I think this is why you now see A > worker processes going through a RWSCS state in their startup.)  > N > Wild guessing follows:  If some process took the lock and then got hung up -Q > but didn't die - the other processes wouldn't all have to wait for it to finish Q > or go away.  If you GRACEFUL restarted during that time, they wouldn't go away; Q > if you RESTARTed, they'd get nuked even with i/o waiting to happen.  This could / > result in long periods of unlogged activity.   > O > While I like Ted's suggestions (snipped below), I'll add that I'd really like N > for the logs to use some format that TYPE/TAIL and TYPE/TAIL/CONT would workP > on, so I can look at recent and ongoing activity without having to pull a huge+ > log file into an editor and wait forever.  > 	 > -- Alan  >   3 of course, Purveyor doesn't have these problems ...    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 22:23:50 -0800+ From: googlepost01@tedcrane.com (ted crane) . Subject: Re: CSWS/Apache 1.3 Log File problems< Message-ID: <dd169acf.0302212223.a7e5ea8@posting.google.com>  . Please excuse me for being such a bulldog with. this set of questions, but it seems to me that0 the various postings in reply to my original are  sortof dancing around the issue.  * Again, stated in slightly different words:  * 1) Is there or is there not a problem with    CSWS/Apache V1.3 log files?  .    Answer: sounds like yes.  Rick Barry states    that it is being worked on.  - 2) Exactly what is the nature of the problem?   .    Answer #1: using APACHE$CONFIG FLUSH causes    stuff to be lost 6    Answer #2: based on my own observation, maybe FLUSH2    doesn't, but I can't be sure.  HOWEVER: it also5    looks as though stuff is lost if I *don't* use it.   9 3) Does using the workaround, "NEW" followed by "RESTART" =    work absolutely, 100% always?  Does using this combination :    of commands at regular intervals guarantee that nothing9    will be lost from logs?  *ANY* interval?  Hours, days?   5 I wouldn't want to put words into anyone's mouth, but 7 some people would say that having a bulletproof logging ; facility is necessary for a web server.  If you can't trust 8 that all hits will be logged, you can't begin to certify% that your web server/site is working.   < I've used Purveyor extensively for over 5 years, and I think? it's a great product, but I would like to migrate from Purveyor B to CSWS/Apache.  Why?  Even though Purveyor is great, and has only: a few bugs that are easily worked around, it does not haveB virtual host capability (several hostnames sharing the same IP)...2 and never will, if I read the writing on the wall. So I want Apache. 1 But if CSWS/Apache comes with unreliable logging,  it's just vaporware to me.  / Having said all that, is there anyone out there 0 who has used CSWS/Apache and can confidently say1 that XYZ workaround (please describe XYZ, perhaps . the NEW/RESTART combo, perhaps something else)* will guarantee unbroken, complete logging?   Thanks.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:48:10 -0500 + From: "Martin O'Connor" <moconnor@dvfs.com> # Subject: Re: Frequent_job.log;32767 6 Message-ID: <b363ab$1irnf2$1@ID-118202.news.dfncis.de>  N "Valentin Likoum" <valentin.likoum@ncc.volga.ru> wrote in message : Hello all, : ? :   We have a couple of frequent (every 5 min) batch jobs which G : eventually create log file with version 32767 and can't run any more.  [snip]F : But this solution is 30 lines long. Is there something more elegant? :   a When I came into my current job there were many periodic jobs that had the same problem. Many had a been running for years and started not running because of the log file version limit. I wrote the d procedure that could be added as a single call in any batch job. P1 specifies the number of versionsZ to keep and p2 specifies the file to purge. If p2 is null the log file of the batch job isc determined and used. When the version exceeds 32000 (I like round numbers) the files are renamed to F versions 1 through n. It may not be elegant but it works consistently.     Marty       $ $ @util_dir:PURGE_LOG_FILES.COM   50  = $ @util_dir:PURGE_LOG_FILES.COM   12   disk:[dir]logfiles.log        $ verify = 'f$verify("NO")'    $ tst := "!!!"  L $!--------------------------------------------------------------------------  K $! PURGE_LOG_FILES - This procedure determines the name of the log file for   6 $! the current batch job and purges keeping the number  5 $! specified in P1 (def: 6). If the version number of   7 $! the log file is greater than 32000 the log files are   3 $! renamed to have version numbers starting at one.   L $!--------------------------------------------------------------------------   $! Imput Parameters    $! ----------------   I $! P1 - The numer of versions to keep when purging the log file. If P1 is   ( $! null the default of six will be used.  I $! P2 - If P2 is NOT NULL then it is the explicit name of the log file to   	 $! purge.   L $!--------------------------------------------------------------------------   $! Revision History    $! ----------------   + $! 5-Jun-2000 M.J.O'Connor Initial version.   F $! 7-Jun-2000 M.J.O'Connor Added P2 to pass an optional log file name.  L $!--------------------------------------------------------------------------   $!   $ if p1 .eqs. ""   $ then   $ log_file_keep_count = 6    $ else   $ log_file_keep_count = p1   $ endif   ! $ show symbol log_file_keep_count    $!   $'tst' show process   ? $'tst' show entry /full /user=system /BY_JOB_STATUS=(EXECUTING)    $!  B $ this_job_name = f$getqui("DISPLAY_ENTRY","job_name",,"THIS_JOB")   $ show symbol this_job_name    $!   $ if p2 .eqs. ""   $ then  Q $ this_log_file = f$getqui("DISPLAY_ENTRY","LOG_SPECIFICATION",,"THIS_JOB") - ";"    $ else   $ this_log_file = p2   $ endif     $'tst' show symbol this_log_file   $ if this_log_file .eqs. ""    $ then  = $ this_log_file = f$search("sys$login:''this_job_name'.log;")   8 $ this_version = f$parse("''this_log_file'",,,"version")  . $ this_log_file = this_log_file - this_version    $'tst' show symbol this_log_file  * $ if this_log_file .eqs. "" then goto exit   $ endif    $ show symbol this_log_file    $!  " $ orig_count = log_file_keep_count  8 $ purge/nolog/keep='log_file_keep_count' 'this_log_file'   $!  I $ log_version = f$parse(f$search("''this_log_file';*"),,,"version") - ";"    $ if log_version .gt. 32000    $ then   $!   $loop:  / $ log_file_keep_count = log_file_keep_count - 1   2 $ if log_file_keep_count .lt. 0 then goto end_loop   $ if log_file_keep_count .gt. 0    $ then  , $ new_ver = orig_count - log_file_keep_count  O $ rename/nolog 'this_log_file';-'log_file_keep_count' 'this_log_file';'new_ver'    $ else  < $ rename/nolog 'this_log_file'; 'this_log_file';'orig_count'   $ endif    $ goto loop   
 $end_loop:   $!   $ endif    $!   $exit:  . $ if verify then set verify ! 'f$verify("NO")'   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:57:52 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> # Subject: Re: Frequent_job.log;32767 ' Message-ID: <3E56F540.4F4561CC@fsi.net>    Valentin Likoum wrote: >  > Hello all, > ? >   We have a couple of frequent (every 5 min) batch jobs which G > eventually create log file with version 32767 and can't run any more. G > Finally I found a solution - figure out which log file we are writing D > to; if version > 32000 then resubmit job to log file with modifiedC > name; if we are already writing to modified log file, then rename A > original log files to 1,2,3.. versions and resubmit itself with F > original log file name. But this solution is 30 lines long. Is there > something more elegant?   ) Well, Chris Sharman's idea is a good one.    Another I could think of:   2 $ PURGE log_filespec/KEEP=120	! Keep a day's worth& $ RENAME log_filespec;* temp_filespec;& $ RENAME temp_filespec;* log_filespec;  F That's only three lines. I've not tested that for your case, but I use3 that strategy for other purposes very successfully.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:37:31 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>@ Subject: Re: Heads Up - Next OpenVMS Advanced Technical Bootcamp/ Message-ID: <3E5671EA.BD9E4CA1@vl.videotron.ca>    Sue Skonetski wrote: >  > Dear Newsgroup,  > E > If you have suggestions on what you would like to see please let me 4 > know, either in this notes stream or send me mail.   Just my opinions:   P -not much about itanium itself, except to differences when writing applications.  J -planned improvements to the various utilities on VMS (mail etc) which mayK affect applications that use their callable interfaces. (new features etc).   S -presentation o new facilities (mythical example: a callable mime encoder/decoder).    -Advanced DCL tricks.   ; -AST vs Multithreading from a VMS engineer's point of view.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:07:54 +0100 8 From: "Martin \(Martinnovations\)" <mhm@martinnovats.nl>? Subject: Re: How do I restore a system from a non-image backup? 3 Message-ID: <002c01c2d9fe$13de6de0$84085e0a@wws00b>    ----- Original Message ------ From: "Steve Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com>  To: <Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com> * Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:16 PM; Subject: How do I restore a system from a non-image backup?      > All, > J > I have a diskless system which boots over the network from another node.J > The backup of this disk is done on the holding node, and a single backupJ > command does all the remote systems locally mounted disks. UnfortunatelyJ > the backup command is just a normal backup [no /IMAGE] and an additionalJ > problem is the the command backs up ALL the disks one after another into > the same saveset [ie $ BACKUP G > DIA1:[000000...]*.*;*,DIA2:[000000...]*.*;*, etc] so even getting the H > files off [luckily it's the first disk in the list] I don't think will > be trivial...  >  > However, some questions. > J > The backup will copy the aliased files [SYS$COMMON, VMS$COMMON etc] intoJ > the saveset doubly, so a restore to this disk will likely fill it beforeH > completion. How can I get around this? And is restoring the ALIAS easy > enough to do?  > & > I guess I'll need to run WRITEBLOCK? > 1 > Can anyone think of anything else I need to do?  >  > TIA  >  > Steve Spires > Technical Consultant > Torex Health > [T] +44 (0) 1295 274200  > [F] +44 (0) 1295 275131  > www.torex.com  > G Is it possible to boot form another disk, install a base version of VMS L (so that the directory structure is OK), Delete all files in all directories" and restore the (ONIMAGE) backup ?   Regards, Martin Hoogenboom  System Manager+ VX Company IT Services B.V. (vxcompany.com)  mhoogenboom@see.above.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:33:42 +0100 2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>D Subject: Re: How do I run the backup command with this samba backup?G Message-ID: <3e5670b4$0$13716$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>   7 "jm" <john_20_28_2000@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag 4 news:c67e4bdd.0302211024.ea779@posting.google.com... > Thank you in advance.  > ? > backup samba-2_2_7a-src.bck /sav/sel=[samba-2_2_7a-src...]*.* " > user$disk:[rm2.my_name.samba227] > H > It creates the directories, but places all the files on the top level.G >  The files should be in those directories that it creates, not on the  > top level.    = backup samba-2_2_7a-src.bck /sav/sel=[samba-2_2_7a-src...]*.* # user$disk:[rm2.my_name.samba227...]    Ren   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:00:00 +0800 / From: "Fred Jiang" <fred.jiang@tianjin.mot.com> 7 Subject: How to calculate the detached processes on VMS + Message-ID: <b34mbq$54g$1@newshost.mot.com>    Hello,I Is there any simple way to calculate detached processes on vms? Thanks in  advance  Fred   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:14:39 +0100 ) From: Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> ; Subject: Re: How to calculate the detached processes on VMS 6 Message-ID: <3e55edff$0$49116$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>  + Could you explain what you want to achieve?   	 Bart Zorn    Fred Jiang wrote:  > Hello,K > Is there any simple way to calculate detached processes on vms? Thanks in 	 > advance  > Fred >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:54:23 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>; Subject: Re: How to calculate the detached processes on VMS * Message-ID: <3E563D9F.20708@tsoft-inc.com>   Fred Jiang wrote:    > Hello,K > Is there any simple way to calculate detached processes on vms? Thanks in 	 > advance  > Fred    I Hmmm....   3:00 AM?  Ok, such a question is acceptable from 3:00 AM.  :-)   N What do you mean by 'calculate'?  Determine the number of detached processes? D Should that number include system processes, or just user processes?  O One easy method is to scan the process table and count the detached processes.  M You could make some assumptions based upon UIC to determine which are system  P processes.  You could bypass certain process names, such as OPCOM, JOB_CONTROL, 	 and such.   ? As noted by one notable, terse questions rarely are understood.    Dave   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 20:13:32 +0100- From: Andreas Eder <Andreas.Eder@t-online.de> Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly * Message-ID: <m3bs15ih0j.fsf@elgin.eder.de>  . Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> writes:  " > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:31:47 GMT7 > Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:  > F > BI> On 19 Feb 2003 10:46:15 +0100 in alt.folklore.computers, Andreas, > BI> Eder <Andreas.Eder@t-online.de> wrote: > E > BI> >Coke in drinking and McDonalds in eating are probably the best * > BI> >equivalent to Windows in computing.$ > BI> >I much prefer the real stuff. > BI> - > BI> You prefer Jolt, Wendy's, and a shell?   > ? > 	For me make it fresh coffee, home cooking ... and a shell :)    Amen, brother.   'Andreas --  + Wherever I lay my .emacs, theres my $HOME.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:53:13 -0700  From: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.caQ Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly + Message-ID: <3E5683A9.8070407@jetnet.ab.ca>    Brian Inglis wrote:   ? > for jazz and classical music and also their AX4GE/PE Tube for A > general/pop music, both apparently supporting Dolby 5.1 sound.    ; I looked at that site and the 5.1 sound does not seem to be > tube driven.A dual triode will just give you two channels out.& They have 3 channel for the 5.1 sound.) Then again 5 channel valve amps are RARE.  Ben.: PS also if you have DVD player the computer it may be wise: to set it for region #2 dvd's ( japan/uk ) and buy a cheap9 DVD player for the TV. This covers most of the good stuff  on DVD.    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:41:02 +0000 (UTC) 8 From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins)Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly . Message-ID: <b366de$1h4o$4@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>  = In article <slrnb5719k.nli.stanb45@citadel.metropolis.local>, ) Stan Barr <stanb45@dial.pipex.com> wrote:e  P >Strangely enough, although here in the UK we've been tone-dialling for decades L >I tried pulse dialing the other day by tapping on the "hook" switch and it N >worked perfectly.  Why was I trying it??  Because I thought an old-fashioned D >dial phone would look cool in my den and I wanted to see if I could >actually use it!   D Someday . . . I will, uhh, liberate the ancient phone my father has,; and connect it to a small AI for a synthetic operator . . .x   hawk -- aK Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaignuG dochawk@psu.edu  Smeal 178  (814) 375-4700      \ /   against HTML mailcD These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 6 Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \      ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:48:03 +0000 (UTC) 8 From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins)Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolys. Message-ID: <b366qj$1h4o$5@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>  G In article <b32k7s$d34$5@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote: . >In article <b32fh4$oqc$1@shell.monmouth.com>,< >   pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) wrote:  J >>An old Sparc2 SunOS machine (about 486 to early Pentium speed) which wasI >>getting trashed at Lucent 5 years ago is still more reliable and stablee" >>than  Win3.1, Win9.x, and WinME.  D >I got curious about NT two? (can't remember) years ago so I visitedC >CompUSA to check it out.  Here's the sound scenario:  click, click.F >[swear elided] (that's because of the fucking User Device From Hell),E >click, oooh, that's interesting, let's try, click, crash, motherfuckr. >it can't survive 5 mintues of the den mother?  A >Then another customer who viewed himself as a computer expert ofyB >some flavor came near.  He stated that I couldn't have caused the@ >crash because NT was robust.  I got very amused.  It's the ones> >who don't know any better who are the best testers (a fact he/ >still needed to learn to succeed in this biz).n  > I first met NT doing some consulting in grad school.  They hadB (supposedly) ported their product from linux to NT (without anyoneE seeming to understand why, as the performance difference was *so* bad H that the school district, who didn't know about the change, told them to' do undo whatever they'd recently done).n  D Anyway, as I sat down, someone complained that something had frozen.  > No problem, I replied; it's NT; just kill the problem process.   "That's what froze."   uh-huh . . .   hawk   --  K Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaignnG dochawk@psu.edu  Smeal 178  (814) 375-4700      \ /   against HTML mailvD These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 6 Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \      ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:02:16 +0000 (UTC)f8 From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins)Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyo. Message-ID: <b367l8$1h4o$6@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>  / In article <3e4fbf26.52963062@news.eircom.net>,e1 Russell Wallace <rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net> wrote:aF >On Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:24:51 GMT, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> >wrote:o  G >>Okay, so now I have this Sun I want to run Office on, no problem, eh?p  E >Buy Sun's incompatible proprietary hardware, looks like you're stuckf# >with running Sun's office package.O  D That's OK; it also runs under bsd, and linux, and windows, and . . .   hawk -- oK Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaign G dochawk@psu.edu  Smeal 178  (814) 375-4700      \ /   against HTML mail?D These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 6 Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \      ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 16:13:06 -0600+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)8Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly93 Message-ID: <sxS$qkap0H$l@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  S In article <3E55593B.284029F7@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> writes:n > Marty Kuhrt wrote:5 >> rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net (Russell Wallace) writes:V >> > >>  = >> Let's point out the hypocrisy, here.  Micro$haft was foundlE >> _GUILTY_, yet you still defend them.  Yet, your signature reads...l >>  8 >> > "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent." >> nB >> So your (specious) arguments in favor of Micro$haft are blatant >> treachery on your part. >> N& >> *plonk* into the killfile with you. > D > Who was it said something like "I may not agree with what he says,; > but I will defend his right to say it"?  I think you have " > categorized yourself as a bigot. >  > --  > > Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net)= >    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.a< >    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>  USE worldnet address!  = He can say all he wants.  I don't have to listen to it.  Thato= doesn't make me a bigot, but it does quite clearly point out 5 that you're an idiot.v   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:14:11 -0700 % From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyp5 Message-ID: <1fqqepq.18jef8k5b7ns6N%lars@bearnip.com>o  ( CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> wrote:   > Marty Kuhrt wrote:6 > > rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net (Russell Wallace) writes: > > >  > > > > > Let's point out the hypocrisy, here.  Micro$haft was foundF > > _GUILTY_, yet you still defend them.  Yet, your signature reads... > > 9 > > > "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."t > > C > > So your (specious) arguments in favor of Micro$haft are blatant8 > > treachery on your part.r > > ' > > *plonk* into the killfile with you.H > D > Who was it said something like "I may not agree with what he says,; > but I will defend his right to say it"?  I think you have2" > categorized yourself as a bigot.  E Well, using killfiles is not bigotism per se - they're more "You have G still every right to voice your opinion, just don't expect me to listen  any longer."   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:07:25 +0000 (UTC) 8 From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins)Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly0. Message-ID: <b367ut$1h4o$7@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>  0 In article <3e515210.156124231@news.eircom.net>,1 Russell Wallace <rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net> wrote: G >On 17 Feb 2003 20:50:59 GMT, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:   , >>I thought the argument was about predatory >>proprietary companies? > D >Not from my side it isn't. My argument all along has been preciselyD >that whether you want to say one company or another is "predatory",F >"evil", "a monopoly" etc etc (in practice, those labels are earned byB >being successful, not by being nasty) isn't what really matters.   ? OK, this is different.  I don't recall ever seeing Godwin-bait 2 before . . .   hawk, refraining from biting -- TK Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaign?G dochawk@psu.edu  Smeal 178  (814) 375-4700      \ /   against HTML mailLD These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 6 Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \      ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:12:15 +0000 (UTC)o8 From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins)Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly . Message-ID: <b3687v$1h4o$8@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>  ' [followupset to alt.folklore.computers]p  0 In article <3e51d0a7.188536110@news.eircom.net>,1 Russell Wallace <rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net> wrote:eG >On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:33:09 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>a >wrote:C  K >>I've been trying to stay out of this rather useless discussion, but, the g5 >>implication above is that MS is not evil and nasty.t  7 >>1) Legally found to have used monopolistic practices.t( >>2) Wipes out any possible competition." >>3) Illegally destroyed Netscape.  . >By giving away a competing product for free?   H If you would actually read the opinion (or nearly anything other than MS9 press releases) you wouldn't say stupid things like this.=  F *nowhere* in any of the opinions, and afaik, the briefs filed with theA court, or the prosecution testimony, is microsoft criticisized orS1 faulted for giving it way free.  Not once.  Ever.   = It was the use of market power to break netscape that was the=H problem--they saw netscape as such a threat to the windows monopoly thatC they turned away $100M--yes, one hundred million--in offered money, G instead giving away the channels for free with the requirement that thel$ pages be incompatible with netscape.  
 And so forth.   * hawk, who actually read the court findings --  K Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaign@G dochawk@psu.edu  Smeal 178  (814) 375-4700      \ /   against HTML mailFD These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 6 Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \      ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 09:14:35 -0700) From: Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu>aQ Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyo( Message-ID: <1b65rdy5jo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>   rmk@rmkhome.com writes:   F > In alt.folklore.computers Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote: > F > > Any sort of numbers like that will be badly biased by the relativeE > > popularity of the  OSes.  Unix code with exploitable bugs will be6I > > reported as being a Linux bug, even if everything from AT&T Version 6eF > > to Solaris could be hacked by it.  Likewise, anything so  platformI > > independent it could be used to exploit both Unix and Windows will be  > > reported as a Windows bug. > N > Very different than that. One particular point that is used to differentiateJ > different Linux distributions is the number if CDROMs of "stuff" that itF > contains. Much of this "stuff" is crap, and also present in a lot ofK > different distributions. First one distribution reports a bug or securitysM > hole, and the other follow right along like dominos falling over. Since notfL > all distributions are not the same, the consumer must wait for the fix for > his pile of "stuff". > : > A Linux distribution is a kernel plus a pile of "stuff".  E Yes, I know what a Linux distribution is.  But this has nothing to domF with my point that Unix (you know -- Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD, MacOS X,C etc) bugs will be reported as Linux bugs, and really cross-platformS' bugs will be reported as Windows world.r  B In the Linux world (and rpesumably in other Unices, and in my veryB limited Windows experience), security-critical bugs in third-party; software are almost always fixed immediately, with links tod= downloadable fixed versions available in the first public bugn reports. -- l< Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D.       Phone -- (505) 646-1605< Department of Computer Science       FAX   -- (505) 646-1002E New Mexico State University          http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer4M Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair:  http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifairr   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:21:20 GMT ' From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>mQ Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolye) Message-ID: <3E56A33B.A010EB35@yahoo.com>    bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca wrote:  > Brian Inglis wrote:a > A > > for jazz and classical music and also their AX4GE/PE Tube for B > > general/pop music, both apparently supporting Dolby 5.1 sound. > = > I looked at that site and the 5.1 sound does not seem to be-@ > tube driven.A dual triode will just give you two channels out.( > They have 3 channel for the 5.1 sound.+ > Then again 5 channel valve amps are RARE.f  < Did you never hear of reflex amplifiers?  With two IF's plusB baseband we could cram 6 amplifiers into those two triodes.  Don't? forget neutralization.  We can demodulate everything with a fewM" germanium diodes - try 1N34's. :-)  B Note 1: IF transformers used to be available for 175 khz, 455 khz,% and 1.6 Mhz, not to mention 10.7 Mhz.I  @ Note 2: We can probably handle the modulation with some balancedB diode bridges, built from those 1N34s, or we could stuff it into a suitable DSP chip.  8 Note 3: I am not sure where to get the IF frequencies to; modulate.  The DSP might be able to synthesize them though.a  @ With care we might even get eight (8) audio channels through the dual triode!   --  < Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net);    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.e:    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>  USE worldnet address!   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:21:23 GMTd' From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>nQ Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly') Message-ID: <3E56A577.12F737E4@yahoo.com>e   "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote:  >  ... snip ... > D > My '83 Cougar died with 99,960 miles on it.  Yes, short of my 100kA > by just 40.  I probably would have fixed it again if we weren'tp@ > about to leave for grad school.  Unfortunately, we didn't haveC > time for my other plan:  rent a Clyesdale, pop it in neutral, andd$ > sit on the roof for 40 miles . . .  > You must have mistreated that cat something awful.  I got wellB over 180k from my '79 Mustang 4 banger.  The power train was fine,@ but the rust holes in the body made driving in the rain somewhat? annoying.  The only real engine problem I ever had was losing aS timing belt.   --  < Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net);    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.R:    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>  USE worldnet address!   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Feb 2003 21:09:02 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)eQ Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyE3 Message-ID: <FdRyhX8lPKlo@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  S In article <3E55593B.284029F7@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> writes:r > Marty Kuhrt wrote:5 >> rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net (Russell Wallace) writes:a >> > >> D= >> Let's point out the hypocrisy, here.  Micro$haft was foundIE >> _GUILTY_, yet you still defend them.  Yet, your signature reads...  >> 68 >> > "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent." >> 2B >> So your (specious) arguments in favor of Micro$haft are blatant >> treachery on your part. >> C& >> *plonk* into the killfile with you. > D > Who was it said something like "I may not agree with what he says,; > but I will defend his right to say it"?  I think you haveo" > categorized yourself as a bigot. >   C 	How about a preferance?  Marty prefers to killfile Russell.  There,A 	is the whole matter of mental anguish and folks get divorced forcG 	"mental anguish."  Maybe we can think about it as a divorce or parting-B 	of ways to make it more politically correct?  There is a certain C 	commercial every time it comes on the telly, I quickly change the g? 	channel.  It is so mentally painful for me (and several in my oE 	household) I/we jump at the chance to change the channel.  Maybe we i> 	can think of it as Marty preferring to skip a bad commercial?  ? 	Any of those analogies help?  If not, perhaps we can go a few n
 	more rounds.a   				Robi  B Men with walkie-talkie                  I'm home again to you babeC Men with flashlights waving             You know it makes me wondersG Up upon the tower                       Sittin' in the quiet slipstream > The clock reads daylight savin'         Rollin' in the thunder  -                                 -- Neil Youngh   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Feb 2003 21:43:23 -0700) From: Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu>eQ Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly ( Message-ID: <1by94efbbo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>   rmk@rmkhome.com writes:o  R > In alt.folklore.computers Brooks Moses <bmoses-usenet@cits1.stanford.edu> wrote: > F > > My suspicion is that a large number -- not all, but many -- of theK > > problems that people seem to have with Windows come from the competenceeJ > > of the sysadmin, and that if the same sysadmins were running any otherI > > OS en masse, that other OS would have similar problems.  All it woulduJ > > take is a few Kazaa-like apps that "need to be installed as root".... I > > And a .bashrc-infecting virus shouldn't be that hard to make, either;w > > who'd notice it? > C > Take a look at the bugtraq mailing list or www.securityfocus.com.n > # > Worst OS - any version of Windowss > 2nd Worst OS - Linux& > And then everything else after that.  B Any sort of numbers like that will be badly biased by the relativeA popularity of the  OSes.  Unix code with exploitable bugs will benE reported as being a Linux bug, even if everything from AT&T Version 6 B to Solaris could be hacked by it.  Likewise, anything so  platformE independent it could be used to exploit both Unix and Windows will bee reported as a Windows bug.  H > Windows, by the nature of it's GUI interface, even hides problems from > the sysadmin.   E This is very, very true, and very poor.  Trying to diagnose a problem  with no logs to look at...  G > Meanwhile, I can still see NIMDA, Code Red, and that latest port 1433pJ > virus still slamming their way around the internet. Windows was designedG > for private networks, and then jury-rigged to work with the internet.a  C "Real Windows" (the code base include Win95 and Win98) was designedrD for a single machine, and jury-rigged for a local network.  NT is anF industrial-strength OS that could be quite capable, but is crippled by: a philosophy that calls for treating  the user as a moron. -- -< Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D.       Phone -- (505) 646-1605< Department of Computer Science       FAX   -- (505) 646-1002E New Mexico State University          http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer>M Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair:  http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifairi   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:29:10 GMTt4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyV8 Message-ID: <uenb5v8lobb7fl4ihrf1ajgmqk7cuo6rf9@4ax.com>  ; On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:15:16 GMT in alt.folklore.computers,e1 rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net (Russell Wallace) wrote:C  G >On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:49:08 -0500, J. Clarke <nospam1@nospam.invalid>  >wrote:o >mC >>I regularly sit at a Windows box and run X applications that are oJ >>resident on a BSD or Linux box.  Whatever you heard you must have heard  >>a very long time ago.R >AF >And will the same binaries run resident on any of the three boxes? DoD >the same keyboard shortcuts work on all the different applications?. >Can you reliably copy and paste between them?  = The shortcuts tend to be more consistent on X Windows than MSoA Windows apps (due to differing MS standards at different times). s  > I can reliably cut, copy, and paste between various MS WindowsA and X Windows apps (running CDE/Motif under eXceed on MS Windows)r> using the same keyboard shortcuts that MyCruft$oft lifted from= Motif, at the same time they lifted the MS Windows 3 look andP= feel from Motif.  Other Motif standard keyboard shortcuts are ( also supported in many MS Windows apps.   ? Try ctrl-insert, shift-delete, shift-insert in apps, windows ors= controls that do not support ctrl-C, ctrl-X, ctrl-V for copy,r cut, paste under MS Windows. pA The Motif keyboard shortcuts are supported by MS Windows, whereass? ctrl-C, ctrl-X, ctrl-V need to be handled by the app, and oftenh" are not in many types of windows.   2 Similar arguments apply to keyboard shortcuts like3 ctrl-shift-right-(/left-)arrow for word selection. t9 Of course, these same keyboard shortcuts are available inh9 appropriate places in any X Window managed by CDE/Motif. e  9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canadas --  F Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply@ abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com ? abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com  B abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com - abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov				spam trapsg   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:29:59 GMT 4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolye8 Message-ID: <qrpb5vkr0s3njam0sfbo32hsukacms749u@4ax.com>  ; On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:10:52 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, 1 rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net (Russell Wallace) wrote:e  9 >On Tue, 18 Feb 03 11:37:21 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:a >u2 >>In article <3e515058.155684634@news.eircom.net>,6 >>   rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net (Russell Wallace) wrote:I >>>On 17 Feb 2003 20:27:03 GMT, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:_ >><snip> >>D >>>>You spent too much time with that Commodore 64.  You should have  >>>>had a real computer instead. >>>"E >>>I used real computers in college at the tail end of the 80s; a VAX-8 >>>6230 running VMS, and various assorted Unix machines. >>	 >><snort>e >mF >Well, I know old Unix and VMS guys tend to define "real computers" asG >being restricted to the above. What's your definition, "real computer"r >== IBM mainframe? :)   9 BAH used DEC mainframes (10s, not those minis with a V). e  D >You don't get it. I know very well Unix geeks are prone to refer toE >machines as "compatible" if it takes fewer than N man-months of work!4 >to port application software from one to the other.  1 I think you're thinking of C geeks and portable.  1 Apps on Unix-like systems take only days at most.s@ One reason Linux has a number of free versions of databases like? Informix, Oracle, Sybase available is that it doesn't take much-A more than redefinition of a few symbols and a rebuild from source % to get them running on a new system. v; But these databases are already highly portable, running ont& platforms from Windows to mainframes.   A I've ported large 16 bit MS Windows apps to 32 bit IBM mainframes A in less than 3 months: the original code base was not designed to ? be portable and had much PCitis that had to be expunged, makinge@ the original code much more portable; and neither the source nor> target system were very Unix-like, requiring platform-specific tweaks in a lot of areas. 6 And the resulting code had to run a torture test suite: identically under Windows, various Unix systems, and three; different mainframe environments (OSes/subsystems), both as ? standalone programs and with interfaces to different products.    F >That's not how the people who pay for our industry's existence think.? >They figure if they buy a computer and they buy a program, thev, >computer should be able to run the program. > C >*And they're right.* It should. That's the level of service we getlB >from the industries that provide us with electricity, telephones,F >television and radio broadcasting, cargo shipping, even fax machines.F >It's the level of service the rest of the world is entitled to demand >from our industry in return.$  1 If you pick the right software and tools, it can. ? I have and do run bash, vim, X Windows, ftp, telnet, Navigator,e9 gcc, and some other apps, on different server and desktopp> platforms at work and at home, with no interface or functionalA differences AFAICT, other than those forced by the environments.  A With GUI vim on MS or X Windows, I can browse for and open a file;? (in either a Windows or Unix directory), and either type :ha or_? click the printer icon, to print the file on my default printer!> (the same on both systems), and the printout comes out looking= the same; no matter where the file is stored, where I run the2% editor, or how and where I print it. d@ I sometimes edit a Unix file in an MS Window using an MS Windows> app or a PC file in an X Window using an X Windows app without@ thinking just because it's more convenient for me at the moment,; and I don't have to worry or care because it doesn't make a  difference and doesn't matter.    A Suggestion: Don't try this with MS software or tools! Well, maybeiA with an emulator, but that would have to be on the Unix side. ;^>o  9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canadad --  F Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply@ abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com ? abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com  B abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com - abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov				spam trapsE   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:56:29 +0000 (UTC)a8 From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins)Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolye- Message-ID: <b36ebd$sg2$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>P  ) In article <3E56A577.12F737E4@yahoo.com>,-0 CBFalconer  <cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net> wrote:  >"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote:  E >> My '83 Cougar died with 99,960 miles on it.  Yes, short of my 100kAB >> by just 40.  I probably would have fixed it again if we weren'tA >> about to leave for grad school.  Unfortunately, we didn't haveyD >> time for my other plan:  rent a Clyesdale, pop it in neutral, and% >> sit on the roof for 40 miles . . .   ? >You must have mistreated that cat something awful.  I got wellxC >over 180k from my '79 Mustang 4 banger.  The power train was fine,tA >but the rust holes in the body made driving in the rain somewhati@ >annoying.  The only real engine problem I ever had was losing a
 >timing belt.   H No, it was just plain too many clutches under the hood of that thing.  IF think the V-8's lasted a lot longer than the V-6's, but so many thingsE would constantly be clutched in and out that the 6's didn't last well3E (but we loved the car).  I haven't seen an '83 cougar on the road fornA several years (they're the only aero-styled one with a pedestrian  sight).-  H It had about 30k as a hertz rental when my father got it.  I think I gotH it at about 70k in law school, when I told him that the new cougar ('88)D had an extra foot or so of legroom.  Turned out that this was at theE expense of 6" of headroom an inferior styling; we all liked the oldersH one better :).  I put 20k or so on it before listing to a crummy allegedB mechanic who supposedly put the replacement belt on.  I cooked theH engine rather than pulling to the side on that stretch of I5 (and I'd do9 it again, even knowing that it would cost me the engine).a  G It wasn't worth a new engine, but a client took it and did a crummy job H on the rebuild (less than 1k miles!).  Then another mechanic needed someG work, and got it going--but warned me that it could fail any second, or H last for years.  A sound I had always took to be one of those many, manyC clutches was actually the rods rattling (the entire time I had it!)[ under load.M   *sigh*  E I still miss it sometimes, not that it would do much good with 4 kidsl now--but two came home in it.a   hawk -- dK Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaignnG dochawk@psu.edu  Smeal 178  (814) 375-4700      \ /   against HTML mail D These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 6 Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \      ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 17:10:45 -0700) From: Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu>tQ Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly ( Message-ID: <1bsmuhw4xm.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>  : hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: > I > It wasn't worth a new engine, but a client took it and did a crummy job J > on the rebuild (less than 1k miles!).  Then another mechanic needed someI > work, and got it going--but warned me that it could fail any second, oruJ > last for years.  A sound I had always took to be one of those many, manyE > clutches was actually the rods rattling (the entire time I had it!)4
 > under load.e  F What do you mean by "many, many clutches?"  You must be using the termF differently than I do; to me, a clutch is what goes between the engine and a manual transmission... -- d< Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D.       Phone -- (505) 646-1605< Department of Computer Science       FAX   -- (505) 646-1002E New Mexico State University          http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer_M Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair:  http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair-   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Feb 2003 03:36:28 GMT From: rmk@rmkhome.comaQ Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyD3 Message-ID: <3e56f03c$0$198$75868355@news.frii.net>e  D In alt.folklore.computers Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:  G > Yes, I know what a Linux distribution is.  But this has nothing to do4H > with my point that Unix (you know -- Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD, MacOS X,E > etc) bugs will be reported as Linux bugs, and really cross-platform1) > bugs will be reported as Windows world.l  D Read the bugtraq mailing list or www.securityfocus.com on a frequentC basis. Much of the reported Linux bugs and fixes for Linux bugs aresD either in apps developed on Linux or bugs that were fixed previouslyC in Solaris, FreeBSD, MacOS X, NetBSD, OpenBSD, AIX, etc. Each LinuxaD distribution comes out with it's own packaged patch for the problem.A These patches are mostly different. There are about 10 mainstreamgB Linux distributions and about 260 in total. They don't contain all the same stuff.s  D > In the Linux world (and rpesumably in other Unices, and in my veryD > limited Windows experience), security-critical bugs in third-party= > software are almost always fixed immediately, with links toa? > downloadable fixed versions available in the first public bug 
 > reports.   On a per distribution basis.  D With the big Linux bug continuing to be that Linux NFS does not play well with others.n   --  , rmk@rmkhome.com		http://www.rmkhome.com/~rmk   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 04:26:34 GMTb' From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly2) Message-ID: <3E56F642.E4EF765F@yahoo.com>o   "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote:M+ > Stan Barr <stanb45@dial.pipex.com> wrote:I > > > > Strangely enough, although here in the UK we've been tone-? > > dialling for decades I tried pulse dialing the other day by8> > > tapping on the "hook" switch and it worked perfectly.  Why> > > was I trying it??  Because I thought an old-fashioned dial< > > phone would look cool in my den and I wanted to see if I > > could actually use it! > A > Someday . . . I will, uhh, liberate the ancient phone my fatherWB > has, and connect it to a small AI for a synthetic operator . . .  ? In N.America at least one can normally expect pulse dialling toiB work.  However the phones with a magneto and a crank don't seem to be able to raise the operator.  B Not wishing to plow through 28 layers of menus, I always pretend IA have a dial phone when accessing any automated attendant system.  # Speaker phones are also handy here.s   --  < Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net);    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.d:    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>  USE worldnet address!   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 04:26:36 GMT ' From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly ) Message-ID: <3E56F885.4B3EB871@yahoo.com>a   "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote:S3 > Russell Wallace <rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net> wrote:i- > > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:a > / > >> I thought the argument was about predatorys > >> proprietary companies?  > >-G > > Not from my side it isn't. My argument all along has been preciselyCG > > that whether you want to say one company or another is "predatory",:I > > "evil", "a monopoly" etc etc (in practice, those labels are earned bysD > > being successful, not by being nasty) isn't what really matters. > @ > OK, this is different.  I don't recall ever seeing Godwin-bait > before . . .  @ I have been trying to come up with a firm, past or present, that was simultaneously:d     1. Profitable.    2. Considered a good employer."   3. Appreciated by its customers.'   4. Appreciated by the general public.a#   5. Not a closed family operation.o  ? and (until the fire) the only one I could come up with was that ? fabric manufacturer in Lynn, Massachusetts.  Can't remember thee> name offhand.  Now it is missing qualification 1, but with any luck that will change.   -- H< Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net);    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.i:    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>  USE worldnet address!   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 03 11:31:56 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com-Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyr* Message-ID: <b35573$38$4@bob.news.rcn.net>  ( In article <1by94efbbo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>,-    Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:  >rmk@rmkhome.com writes: <snip>  I >> Windows, by the nature of it's GUI interface, even hides problems from  >> the sysadmin. >qF >This is very, very true, and very poor.  Trying to diagnose a problem >with no logs to look at...a  C That's the reason I hate video terminals.  It was very, very usefuln= to have the last month's console printout laying all over thelA computer floor.  Finding the error report that occurred maybe twowA weeks ago got real useful once in a blue moon.  The fact that thetD info lay around unused was worth it if the that blue moon occurrence saved us from delaying a ship.   >oH >> Meanwhile, I can still see NIMDA, Code Red, and that latest port 1433K >> virus still slamming their way around the internet. Windows was designedmH >> for private networks, and then jury-rigged to work with the internet. >tD >"Real Windows" (the code base include Win95 and Win98) was designedE >for a single machine, and jury-rigged for a local network.  NT is aneG >industrial-strength OS that could be quite capable, but is crippled byn; >a philosophy that calls for treating  the user as a moron.y  A That's not the real problem (it's a problem but let me finish).  o= NT got trashed because the Windows philosphy doesn't separates? the exec mode from user mode.  I heard that this was one battleh Cutler fought and lost.      /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.t   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 03 12:04:33 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Q Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyr+ Message-ID: <b35747$38$11@bob.news.rcn.net>   . In article <b32tcr$1daq$4@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>,<    hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:   <snip>   >I've also used it in any B >number of cross-os applications, including macbsd, linux, ultrix,( ><insert dec's flavor of the week here>,  @ Alas,  it (flavor of the week) did get to that point, didn't it?   <snip>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 03 12:16:58 GMTb From: jmfbahciv@aol.comsQ Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopolyp+ Message-ID: <b357rf$38$14@bob.news.rcn.net>0  ) In article <FA3tk$NX9or4@elias.decus.ch>,o-    p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:S >This one for Russel Wallace.p >l4 >Please eliminate your cross-posting to comp.os.vms. > ; >You have contributed far too much noise here this week andO= >it is getting hard to find the real substance in that noise.a >.= >Several people have been asking serious technical questions,s> >and some good answers are there too, but due to the volume of) >your posts, they have been hard to find.   = This thread is very similar to our meetings at work.  Lots ofs= cruft with really good stuff entangled throughout.  I've been-B have a blast.  I can't believe that VMS meetings were well-behaved and staid....well....OTOH....r  3 [impish emoticon lays down a very stinky line]  ;-)-   >r; >OTOH if you wish to learn about a real OS, ask nicely withi' >an open mind, and we will try to help.E  2 I guess I should point out that I'm biased.  :-)))   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.u   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 03 11:59:18 GMTt From: jmfbahciv@aol.comcY Subject: Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM monopoly monopol * Message-ID: <b356qd$38$9@bob.news.rcn.net>  7 In article <20030220165312.0314519d.steveo@eircom.net>,n0    Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> wrote: >On Thu, 20 Feb 03 11:22:06 GMT  >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  >h5 >JC> In article <3e53cf8c.319345846@news.eircom.net>, 9 >JC>    rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net (Russell Wallace) wrote:k$ >JC> >On 19 Feb 2003 07:40:42 -0600,A >JC> >koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org(Bob Koehler) wrote:w >JC> >G >JC> >>   The binaries, no.  But in the early days of WNT you could say 5 >JC> >that>   for Pentium, Alpha, MIPS, ... binaries.r >JC> >I >JC> >Yep. That's why nobody bought the Alpha or MIPS versions of Windowse	 >JC> >NT., >JC>  E >JC> You really need to brush up on the history.  Gates pulled the NT- >JC> funding for the Alphas. > < >	Yep at the time I was working for a large and Intel hatingG >organisation (perhaps that's too strong but Intel is/was a competitor)IE >where a 'new standard desktop' rollout was being planned based on NT C >on Alpha (the previous standard was the Mac). The spec was in late I >draft stages when the axe dropped on NT for Alpha - that outfit wanted a  >lot of machines too.,  ? I predicted that this would happen when I heard about the deal.e   >e; >	They wound up with NT on Intel as the only viable option,iF >because of the large amounts of MS Office junk that nothing else evenJ >claimed to read properly at the time (StarOffice was very young and stillI >belonged to StarDivision). The team that drew up the spec would all have"I >preferred a UNIX based option but there was no way to put one together. "H >They even had the first draft rejected and were told to come up with an, >alternative to NT/Intel and couldn't do it.  A Yup.  Now notice what Gates funded in Apple, then apply a deja vut? since he can't seem to stop his business practices.  Since he's > moved off to a sideline, it may not happen (but then I've been accused of being too naive).   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.-   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 22:35:40 -0800/ From: robl@no-no-badpuppy.com (Robert Lawrence)1I Subject: Idea for installing VMS without a 512byte CD-ROM...Will it work? = Message-ID: <eebf2e9b.0302212235.21d31b41@posting.google.com>o  C I have a friend that gave me a VAXstation 3100/M30, which should bepE delivered Monday. This machine has a hard drive expansion box, but nopC CD-ROM.  This machine also is missing an OS.  I tossed around a feweA ideas and came up with the following method of intalling OpenVMS.aA (Keep in mind that my only exposure to VAX & VMS was as a user atl& university, so I am learning as I go.)  B * Install Linux on a PC, with a SCSI host adpater and an extra 1GB SCSI drive.iD * From Linux do a: dd if=/dev/cdrom of=/dev/sda1  (copy VMS media to raw device)g; * Remove the drive, set the SCSI ID to that of a VAX CD-ROMiF * Install SCSI hard drive in VAXstation and direct it to boot from the	 new drive  * Continue with VMS install   B Will this work?  If I dump the CD contents byte for byte to a SCSIC hard drive on a PC, will the VAX be able to read and boot from thatd drive?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:33:45 -0500 & From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>G Subject: Image restore of "old" saveset fails to restore VMS$COMMON.DIRe8 Message-ID: <ok2d5vod87t32dvamcu59ta0dn9kroi4vh@4ax.com>  P I stumbled across this problem earlier this week after restoring an image backupL of an Alpha V7.1-1H2 system disk, which had been saved (BACKUP /IMAGE) usingG V6.2 BACKUP. (The reason I was doing this was to test the behavior of a & procedure on this old version of VMS.)  J After performing the restore on my Alpha V7.3-1 system, using the command:  ' $   backup /image /initialize /verify -dF         VMSKITS1:[VMS_KITS.ALPVMS0711H2_TEMPLATE]ALPVMS0711H2. /save -         DKA400: /truncatei1 %BACKUP-I-STARTVERIFY, starting verification passs  O (this is copied and pasted from the batch job log file), I mounted the disk andn+ looked at the MFD, and found the following:    Directory DKA400:[000000]   O 000000.DIR;1               1/4        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,E)tN BACKUP.SYS;1               0/0        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)N BADBLK.SYS;1               0/0        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)N BADLOG.SYS;1               0/0        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)N BITMAP.SYS;1             252/252      20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)N CONTIN.SYS;1               0/0        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)N CORIMG.SYS;1               0/0        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)L GSE.DIR;1                  1/4        27-APR-2001 11:07:33.06  (RWE,RWE,E,E)N INDEXF.SYS;1           44684/44684    20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)M KITS.DIR;1                 1/4        27-APR-2001 10:48:34.13  (RWE,RWE,RE,E)0J RSS.DIR;1                  1/4        27-APR-2001 11:07:21.88  (RWE,RWE,,)N SECURITY.SYS;1             1/4        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)N SYS0.DIR;1                 1/4        20-APR-2001 16:02:27.42  (RWE,RWE,RE,RE) VMS$COMMON.DIR;1   no such filecN VOLSET.SYS;1               0/0        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)  & Total of 15 files, 44942/44960 blocks.  K Note that VMS$COMMON.DIR is listed as "no such file". Indeed, performing an,N ANALYZE /DISK /REPAIR creates a [SYSLOST] directory and places in it the filesL not entered in a directory, specifically the PCSI database files and all theF subdirectories of [VMS$COMMON]. I at first assumed that my saveset wasO corrupted, but a number of experiments convinced me otherwise (the clincher wasfK restoring the same saveset on a V6.2 system, and ending up with a perfectlyi intact structure).  P At this point, I was convinced it was a bug in OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1, but I couldP find no record of it. That led me to try it on V7.3, where I discovered the sameM behavior. Eventually, I found release notes items referring to the /[NO]ALIASoO qualifier on BACKUP, and I "googled" for BACKUP /ALIAS and read a number of theiO 327 hits that I found. However, I still can't figure out whether this is a bug,s a feature, or what.n  N It appears that you cannot restore, using current versions of BACKUP (at leastN V7.3 and V7.3-1) a system disk image saveset created under some older versionsO of BACKUP (at least V6.2) and end up with an intact disk structure. I could notcN find in the archives a definitive response that cleared this up for me, and amP hoping this post will provoke such as response, or a reference to the definitive answer.r   Thanks.aI -------------------------------------------------------------------------.I David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot com-I Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)dI -------------------------------------------------------------------------m   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:16:07 -060031 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>cK Subject: Re: Image restore of "old" saveset fails to restore VMS$COMMON.DIRM' Message-ID: <3E56F987.D67B2899@fsi.net>5   David M Smith wrote: > R > I stumbled across this problem earlier this week after restoring an image backupN > of an Alpha V7.1-1H2 system disk, which had been saved (BACKUP /IMAGE) usingI > V6.2 BACKUP. (The reason I was doing this was to test the behavior of as( > procedure on this old version of VMS.) > L > After performing the restore on my Alpha V7.3-1 system, using the command: > ) > $   backup /image /initialize /verify - H >         VMSKITS1:[VMS_KITS.ALPVMS0711H2_TEMPLATE]ALPVMS0711H2. /save - >         DKA400: /truncatee3 > %BACKUP-I-STARTVERIFY, starting verification passd > Q > (this is copied and pasted from the batch job log file), I mounted the disk ands- > looked at the MFD, and found the following:h >  > Directory DKA400:[000000]0 > Q > 000000.DIR;1               1/4        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,E)dP > BACKUP.SYS;1               0/0        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)P > BADBLK.SYS;1               0/0        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)P > BADLOG.SYS;1               0/0        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)P > BITMAP.SYS;1             252/252      20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)P > CONTIN.SYS;1               0/0        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)P > CORIMG.SYS;1               0/0        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)N > GSE.DIR;1                  1/4        27-APR-2001 11:07:33.06  (RWE,RWE,E,E)P > INDEXF.SYS;1           44684/44684    20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)O > KITS.DIR;1                 1/4        27-APR-2001 10:48:34.13  (RWE,RWE,RE,E) L > RSS.DIR;1                  1/4        27-APR-2001 11:07:21.88  (RWE,RWE,,)P > SECURITY.SYS;1             1/4        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,)P > SYS0.DIR;1                 1/4        20-APR-2001 16:02:27.42  (RWE,RWE,RE,RE)! > VMS$COMMON.DIR;1   no such file P > VOLSET.SYS;1               0/0        20-APR-2001 16:02:20.30  (RWED,RWED,RE,) > ( > Total of 15 files, 44942/44960 blocks. > M > Note that VMS$COMMON.DIR is listed as "no such file". Indeed, performing an P > ANALYZE /DISK /REPAIR creates a [SYSLOST] directory and places in it the filesN > not entered in a directory, specifically the PCSI database files and all theH > subdirectories of [VMS$COMMON]. I at first assumed that my saveset wasQ > corrupted, but a number of experiments convinced me otherwise (the clincher wasdM > restoring the same saveset on a V6.2 system, and ending up with a perfectly6 > intact structure). > R > At this point, I was convinced it was a bug in OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1, but I couldR > find no record of it. That led me to try it on V7.3, where I discovered the sameO > behavior. Eventually, I found release notes items referring to the /[NO]ALIAS Q > qualifier on BACKUP, and I "googled" for BACKUP /ALIAS and read a number of the Q > 327 hits that I found. However, I still can't figure out whether this is a bug,y > a feature, or what.m > P > It appears that you cannot restore, using current versions of BACKUP (at leastP > V7.3 and V7.3-1) a system disk image saveset created under some older versionsQ > of BACKUP (at least V6.2) and end up with an intact disk structure. I could not P > find in the archives a definitive response that cleared this up for me, and amR > hoping this post will provoke such as response, or a reference to the definitive	 > answer.a  D Search Google archives for posts re: this from around this time last year (more in April or so).h  C This is a known "feature". Some revisions to BACKUP "broke" certainoH behaviors when restoring savesets written by earlier versions of BACKUP.   -- e David J. Dachterac dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/v   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:27:15 +0100a< From: "julien courtemanche" <julien.courtemanche@wanadoo.fr> Subject: information with file3 Message-ID: <b36941$b56$1@news-reader12.wanadoo.fr>    Hello,  E do you know if a command like this one exist : $set file /comment="myo comment" myfile.txth  * I think it's possible with a special ACE ?  ; is it an undocumented function or someone already do this ?e   Thanks   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:40:35 -0500 $ From: Mike Duffy <Duffy@process.com>" Subject: RE: information with fileJ Message-ID: <63D30D6E10CFD11190A90000F805FE860492B02B@lespaul.process.com>   > -----Original Message-----C > From: julien courtemanche [mailto:julien.courtemanche@wanadoo.fr]g) > Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 5:27 PMm > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt  > Subject: information with file >  >  > Hello, > G > do you know if a command like this one exist : $set file /comment="myl > comment" myfile.txt  > , > I think it's possible with a special ACE ? > = > is it an undocumented function or someone already do this ?  >  > Thanks >   D While I've never heard of such a thing, it certainly seems possible.  A A look in STARLET.REQ reveals a value ACE$C_INFO "General purposeeA information" that can presumably be used in the ACE$B_TYPE field.'  A ACE$C_INFO is not mentioned in my (now 13 year old) file systems lC internals book, so I'm just guessing here.  It seems resonable thatsC this type of ACE might be used to store arbitrary text or comments.e  E I have no idea if any system facilities or DCL commands are availablei! with which to create such an ACE.   7 Perhaps someone else here knows about this type of ACE?t   -Mike Duffyi   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:48:12 GMTk' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net>m" Subject: Re: information with file+ Message-ID: <3E56BB84.6C897E3A@pacbell.net>d  F User defined, file meta-data is something I wish existed too. It would be nice to be able to do a : 	dir/comment	 and get : F 	OURPRODUCT.EXE "Debug version, for use with shareable OURSHARE22.EXE". 	DATAFILE.DAT "Created by OUR_ALT_PRODUCT.EXE"3 	HOUSE.GIF "Copied from alphase.com/aex/design.gif"l  5 Maybe with a DIR qualifier like /MAX_COMMENT_SIZE=255i! But alas, AFAIK it doesn't exist.h -- r   Have VMS, Will Travel  Wire paladin, San Francisco(   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)     julien courtemanche wrote: >  > Hello, > G > do you know if a command like this one exist : $set file /comment="my  > comment" myfile.txt  > , > I think it's possible with a special ACE ? > = > is it an undocumented function or someone already do this ?  >  > Thanks   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:13:15 -08002( From: Alan Frisbie <Abuse@NelsonUSA.com>" Subject: Re: information with file- Message-ID: <3E56C09B.88A2C603@NelsonUSA.com>t   Don Sykes wrote: > H > User defined, file meta-data is something I wish existed too. It would > be nice to be able to do a : >         dir/comment> > and get ::O >         OURPRODUCT.EXE "Debug version, for use with shareable OURSHARE22.EXE"D7 >         DATAFILE.DAT "Created by OUR_ALT_PRODUCT.EXE" < >         HOUSE.GIF "Copied from alphase.com/aex/design.gif"  < I mentioned this to Andy Goldstein about ten or twenty years; ago.   He declared it a good idea, and wrote it down in hise. notebook.   I guess it never went any further.   Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:42:01 -0500 % From: Bob Harris <harris@zk3.dec.com>e" Subject: Re: information with file= Message-ID: <harris-3ED501.21420021022003@juggl7.zk3.dec.com>a  3 In article <b36941$b56$1@news-reader12.wanadoo.fr>,C>  "julien courtemanche" <julien.courtemanche@wanadoo.fr> wrote:   X Hello, X G X do you know if a command like this one exist : $set file /comment="myd X comment" myfile.txts X , X I think it's possible with a special ACE ? X = X is it an undocumented function or someone already do this ?d X  X Thanks  C The PATHWORKS for OpenVMS (Macintosh) DECshare file server used an iH OpenVMS Application ACE to store the Macintosh comment in.  The product I also provided a utility MSA$EXAMPLES:MSAF$COMMENT.EXE that could be used  < on OpenVMS to Set, Clear, and Display the Macintosh comment.  D If using a separate utility to manipulate and view your comments is H acceptable, something like MSAF$COMMENT.EXE, then write a utility to do 
 just that.  I Heck, if you can find a PATHWORKS for OpenVMS (Macintosh) v1.3 kit on an aH old consolidated products CD, you could just use MSAF$COMMENT.EXE.  The D executable does not need the full PATHWORKS for OpenVMS (Macintosh) G product installed.  All you would need to do is use the BACKUP utility hD to extract just the MSAF$COMMENT.EXE file from the installation kit.  *                                 Bob Harris   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:43:42 -0000b! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>r0 Subject: Re: Initiating Command on VMS from Unix/ Message-ID: <v5dhtu1m5hkge1@corp.supernews.com>.  : Brian Tillman <Brian.Tillman@notnoone.notnohow.com> wrote:" : $ mcr latcp create port lta6666:. : $ set device/spool=(sys$batch,sys$sysdevice)   Don't you need privs for that?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:19:00 -0500n- From: Jonathan Boswell <jsb@ost.cdrh.fda.gov>:? Subject: LINEWRAP TPU program (was: Upcoming VMS improvements?)m0 Message-ID: <3E56B3E4.C79AF961@ost.cdrh.fda.gov>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------E2FDC4054292EFB9AEA2D053* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitM   warren [cryptic] sander wrote:- > greater than 256 characters in a line......t  L I think what he's saying is that using TPU in the first place is much easierJ than trying to make EDT handle lines longer than 256 chars.  For those whoL insist on EDT, here is a handy TPU preprocessor of my own invention, offeredK without guarantees of suitability blah blah blah.  You can set the max line P length to any number of characters (other than my hardwired 80).  But leaving itN at 80 almost always does what I want, e.g. making other folks' disgusting HTML$ easily editable with my EDT scripts.    - JBy& --------------E2FDC4054292EFB9AEA2D053? Content-Type: application/x-unknown-content-type-TPU_auto_file;   name="LINEWRAP.TPU"! Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64g Content-Disposition: inline;  filename="LINEWRAP.TPU"  H IUEgVFBVIHByb2NlZHVyZSB0byBsaW5ld3JhcCBmaWxlIGF0IHByZXZpb3VzIHNwYWNlIGJlH Zm9yZSA4MCBjb2x1bW5zLg0KIQ0KIVR5cGljYWwgdXNhZ2U6DQohDQohICAkIGVkaXQvdHB1H L25vc2VjdGlvbi9jb21tYW5kPWxpbmV3cmFwLnRwdS9ub2Rpc3BsYXkgPGZpbGVuYW1lPg0KH IQ0KaW5wdXRfZmlsZSA6PSBHRVRfSU5GTyhDT01NQU5EX0xJTkUsICJmaWxlX25hbWUiKTsNH CmlucHV0X2J1ZmZlciA6PSBDUkVBVEVfQlVGRkVSKCJtYWluIixpbnB1dF9maWxlKTsNClBPH U0lUSU9OKEJFR0lOTklOR19PRihpbnB1dF9idWZmZXIpKTsNCk1FU1NBR0UoIkFib3V0IHRvH IGxpbmV3cmFwIGV4Y2Vzc2l2ZWx5IGxvbmcgbGluZXMuLi4iKTsNCg0KbG9uZ19saW5lX3BhH dHRlcm4gOj0gTElORV9CRUdJTiArIE5PVEFOWSgiIiw4MCk7DQpjb3VudGVyMiA6PSAwOw0KH TE9PUA0KCWxvbmdfbGluZV9yYW5nZSA6PSBTRUFSQ0hfUVVJRVRMWSAobG9uZ19saW5lX3BhH dHRlcm4sIEZPUldBUkQpOw0KICAgICAgICBFWElUSUYgbG9uZ19saW5lX3JhbmdlID0gMDsNH CglQT1NJVElPTihFTkRfT0YobG9uZ19saW5lX3JhbmdlKSk7CQkhTW92ZSB0byBjb2wgODAuH DQoJcHJldmlvdXNfc3BhY2VfcmFuZ2UgOj0gU0VBUkNIX1FVSUVUTFkgKCIgIiwgUkVWRVJTH RSxFWEFDVCxsb25nX2xpbmVfcmFuZ2UpOw0KCWlmIHByZXZpb3VzX3NwYWNlX3JhbmdlID0gH MAkhTm8gcHJpb3Igc3BhY2VzIG9uIHRoaXMgbGluZS4NCgl0aGVuCQkJCSFHaXZlIHVwIGFuH ZCBzcGxpdCBsaW5lIHJpZ2h0IGhlcmUuDQoJCU1FU1NBR0UoIkxvbmcgbGluZSBmb3VuZCB3H aXRoIG5vIGJyZWFrcy4gIFNwbGl0IGl0IGFueXdheS4iKTsNCgkJU1BMSVRfTElORTsNCgkJH TUVTU0FHRSgiSGVyZSdzIHdoYXQncyBsZWZ0OiAiICsgQ1VSUkVOVF9MSU5FKTsNCgllbHNlH CQkJCSFGb3VuZCBwcmV2aW91cyBzcGFjZSBvbiBjdXJyZW50IGxpbmUuDQoJCVBPU0lUSU9OH KHByZXZpb3VzX3NwYWNlX3JhbmdlKTsNCgkJU1BMSVRfTElORTsgCQkhV3JhcCB0aGlzIHJlH Y29yZCBiZWZvcmUgcHJldmlvdXMgc3BhY2UuDQoJCUVSQVNFX0NIQVJBQ1RFUigxKTsJIURlH bGV0ZSB0aGlzIHNwYWNlLg0KCWVuZGlmOw0KCU1PVkVfVkVSVElDQUwoLTEpOwkhUHJlcGFyH ZSBmb3IgdGhpcyBsaW5lIGFnYWluLg0KCWNvdW50ZXIyIDo9IGNvdW50ZXIyICsgMTsNCkVOH RExPT1A7DQpNRVNTQUdFKFNUUihjb3VudGVyMikgKyAiIHJpZGljdWxvdXNseSBsb25nIGxpD bmVzIHdyYXBwZWQuIik7DQpXUklURV9GSUxFKGlucHV0X2J1ZmZlcik7DQpRVUlUOw0K( --------------E2FDC4054292EFB9AEA2D053--   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:49:06 -0500c* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>+ Subject: Re: Madison, successor to McKinleyo2 Message-ID: <TfucnREFCJqESsujXTWcrg@metrocast.net>  2 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660DA6@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. ..  / On the topic of Itanium and power consumption -t  A http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20030220S0049 - February 21, 2003h  A San Jose -- Intel Corp. Thursday disclosed that a new Low VoltageiG Itanium 2 processor, code-named Deerfield, will be introduced in 2H '03sB to compete head-on with Sun Microsystems in the entry level 64-bit server platforms.m  H Mike Fister, senior vice president and general manager of the enterpriseD platforms group, said Deerfield will operate with 62 watts, half theA power consumption but the same performance level of the mid-gradeoD existing Itanium 2 processors. The chip will have 1GHz frequency and 1.5Megabytes of L3 cache. "a    I Well, sure.  Hell, if McKinley had been willing to settle for SPARC-leveld: performance, it too could have consumed SPARC-level power.  J So when Deerfield rolls around, it'll perform a bit worse than the currentK high-end McKinley (same clock speed, but Deerfield has only half the cache) L and use about half the power.  Unfortunately, as a lower-end entrant it willH be competing with P4s, Xeons, Hammers, and the lower-end POWER4+ entriesG that will use about the same amount of power and run rings around it iny performance.  H So the positioning noted above is right on:  it will indeed compete with@ entry-level SPARCs (but not much else) on something like similar performance-per-Watt terms.l   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 20:22:23 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)0+ Subject: Re: Madison, successor to McKinleye3 Message-ID: <Rn9PqSR9K6Gd@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  _ In article <TfucnREFCJqESsujXTWcrg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:t > 4 > "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageN > news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660DA6@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. > .. > 1 > On the topic of Itanium and power consumption -s > C > http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20030220S0049 - February 21, 2003n > C > San Jose -- Intel Corp. Thursday disclosed that a new Low VoltagewI > Itanium 2 processor, code-named Deerfield, will be introduced in 2H '03 D > to compete head-on with Sun Microsystems in the entry level 64-bit > server platforms.i > J > Mike Fister, senior vice president and general manager of the enterpriseF > platforms group, said Deerfield will operate with 62 watts, half theC > power consumption but the same performance level of the mid-grade F > existing Itanium 2 processors. The chip will have 1GHz frequency and > 1.5Megabytes of L3 cache. "e >  > K > Well, sure.  Hell, if McKinley had been willing to settle for SPARC-level < > performance, it too could have consumed SPARC-level power. > L > So when Deerfield rolls around, it'll perform a bit worse than the currentM > high-end McKinley (same clock speed, but Deerfield has only half the cache)tN > and use about half the power.  Unfortunately, as a lower-end entrant it willJ > be competing with P4s, Xeons, Hammers, and the lower-end POWER4+ entriesI > that will use about the same amount of power and run rings around it inl > performance. >   5 	"Rings around it in performance?"  Reference please?m   	Here is Paul's read:s    = http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?AID=RWT012603224711&p=9      				SpecInt2000		SpecFp2000t   	Deerfield 		1150			2000 	Power4+			1150			1500 	Ultra IV		800			1000* 	Ultra IIIi		650			800  " 	Here is the target for Deerfield:  - http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20030220S0049a  I Lisa Graff, director of enterprise processor marketing, said Deerfield iscK targeted at 64-bit servers in the $5,000 to $7,000 platform price range, anmM area which she conceded Sun Microsystems has greater than a 50% market share.nN "The LV Itanium 2 [Deerfield] increases competitiveness with Sun in the entry # RISC processor market," she added. 7  4 	Sun will be shipping a IIIi in that segment, right?  < 	Intel with Deerfield will invade and take over the midrange> 	workstation market.  Price and great performance.  What would> 	drive Power4+ into the workstation space?  AIX/Power has done< 	nothing in the workstation space.  Linux and Power4+ in the= 	workstation space?   Deerfield cheaper and faster makes thath
 	unlikely.   				Robk  E "FIRE God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, not of philosophers and scholars,aL Certainty, certainty, heartfelt, joy, peace. God of Jesus Christ. My God andH your God, Thy God shall be my God." -- Blaise Pascal - November 23, 1654   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:05:50 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>+ Subject: Re: Madison, successor to McKinleyl2 Message-ID: <pgednaNn7YnejsqjXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:Rn9PqSR9K6Gd@eisner.encompasserve.org...S@ > In article <TfucnREFCJqESsujXTWcrg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >r6 > > "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in message > >-L news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660DA6@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. > > .. > >e3 > > On the topic of Itanium and power consumption -D > >sE > > http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20030220S0049 - February 21, 2003p > > E > > San Jose -- Intel Corp. Thursday disclosed that a new Low VoltagexK > > Itanium 2 processor, code-named Deerfield, will be introduced in 2H '03uF > > to compete head-on with Sun Microsystems in the entry level 64-bit > > server platforms.l > >oL > > Mike Fister, senior vice president and general manager of the enterpriseH > > platforms group, said Deerfield will operate with 62 watts, half theE > > power consumption but the same performance level of the mid-gradedH > > existing Itanium 2 processors. The chip will have 1GHz frequency and > > 1.5Megabytes of L3 cache. "  > >a > >tA > > Well, sure.  Hell, if McKinley had been willing to settle forh SPARC-levelr> > > performance, it too could have consumed SPARC-level power. > >nF > > So when Deerfield rolls around, it'll perform a bit worse than the currentnH > > high-end McKinley (same clock speed, but Deerfield has only half the cache)K > > and use about half the power.  Unfortunately, as a lower-end entrant itx willL > > be competing with P4s, Xeons, Hammers, and the lower-end POWER4+ entriesK > > that will use about the same amount of power and run rings around it inx > > performance. > >h >L6 > "Rings around it in performance?"  Reference please?  F You've been kind enough to provide precisely the appropriate reference? below, by quoting Paul's chart.  You just don't realize it yet.c   >y > Here is Paul's read: >M >y? > http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?AID=RWT012603224711&p=9e >g >D > SpecInt2000 SpecFp2000 >m > Deerfield 1150 2000a > Power4+ 1150 1500n > Ultra IV 800 1000i > Ultra IIIi 650 800  E The above is a perfect illustration of the quality of your analyticaliI ability, Rob:  you present a statement of Paul's to refute a response you"I don't like without even bothering to compare it with the more recent (andIG apparently official) statement by Intel that Kerry quoted above and you  yourself refer to again below.  E Paul's estimates for Deerfield were based on an assumed 1.5 GHz clocknI frequency and 3 MB of on-chip cache, and projected a power consumption of.C 100W.  Fister's announcement of a 62 W part specified a 1 GHz clocktI frequency (same as McKinley's, as I noted previously but you seem to haveaI ignored) and a 1.5 MB cache (half the size of McKinley's, as I also noteds- previously but you seem to have ignored).  Soc  I 1.  the processor (and performance) Paul was talking about (even if IntelsG decides to produce it, which given Fister's announcement is by no means D evident) bears no relation to the 62W device we were discussing, and  L 2.  with McKinley's core design, McKinley's clock speed, and half McKinley'sJ cache, the performance of the 62W device we were discussing is going to be* somewhat less than the current McKinley's.  > Given that the remainder of your drivel was based on the aboveE misconceptions, it doesn't seem necessary to respond to it in detail.l   - bill   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:33:12 -0800 (PST)a. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>K Subject: Re: Migrating from PSI X-25 to another product (hardware/software) @ Message-ID: <20030221213312.84915.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>  + I want to disable the PSI .... just this !  5 We have legacy All-in-one, PSI, etc .. in this VAX...b     Regardsd   FC  5 --- JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:l > Fabio Cardoso wrote:? > > Is there a way to  substitute a whole VAX + PSI by a routereL > > - I am imagining any DNPG hardware. The acess must be inbound x outbound > N > It has been a long while. But I recall there being a "PSI-light" that ran onN > the vax and made use of some sort of DEC router to do all the X.25 work, butO > VMS still needed some software to talk to that router and know how to executeh. > the SET HOST/X29 for outbound calls etc etc.     =====n ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil. fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?2 Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/-   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 12:57:58 -0800. From: rick.mclaughlin@hp.com (Rick McLaughlin)9 Subject: Re: New Toolkit modernizes RTR with java supports< Message-ID: <9fde9c6.0302211257.222c8d23@posting.google.com>  @ RTR for OpenVMS is no longer licensed as a separate product, butC licensed as part of the OpenVMS operating system for VAX and Alpha.'  D RTR software support services are sold separately and not be part of operating system services.   RTR Product Managero    h Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<pvl3L7rNhEC8@eisner.encompasserve.org>...s > In article <cf15391e.0302201859.2638a7a9@posting.google.com>, keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:o >  > > RTR comes free with VMS, > B > I though that was only on Alpha and you still had to pay on VAX. >  > Has this changed ?   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Feb 2003 21:18:22 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a9 Subject: Re: New Toolkit modernizes RTR with java supportd3 Message-ID: <pvl3L7rNhEC8@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  q In article <cf15391e.0302201859.2638a7a9@posting.google.com>, keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:    > RTR comes free with VMS,  @ I though that was only on Alpha and you still had to pay on VAX.   Has this changed ?   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 20:25:46 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e9 Subject: Re: New Toolkit modernizes RTR with java supportt3 Message-ID: <tY0Aajng8Y3Y@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  m In article <9fde9c6.0302211257.222c8d23@posting.google.com>, rick.mclaughlin@hp.com (Rick McLaughlin) writes:aB > RTR for OpenVMS is no longer licensed as a separate product, butE > licensed as part of the OpenVMS operating system for VAX and Alpha.c > F > RTR software support services are sold separately and not be part of > operating system services.  G That sounds good.  How about the same treatment for the X.500 product ?@   > RTR Product Manager   / I realize that probably is not your product :-)u   Larry Kilgallenm   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 14:32:23 -08001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)a4 Subject: Re: ODS-2 read/write filesystem for Linux ?= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0302211432.68f39aa8@posting.google.com>-  f bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<b358c3$1ipmtl$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>...C > You know, considering how much time the people here spend bashingp? > Linux (which it well deserves, but I digress) it really seemstA > funny that you needed it to do the port of VMS to Itanium.  :-)w  E In the early days of the VAX-to-Alpha port, (IIRC) a MIPS box runningpC OSF/1 was the I/O front-end to the EV3-chip-based Alpha DevelopmenthE Units that were the first real Alpha hardware available to run VMS onhA (earlier tests were done on the Mannequin simulator, which ran onqD VAXes (8700s with special code in their Writeable Control Store wereD sometimes used to speed up the emulation, but it was still painfully slow).  F When you need quick time-to-market, with no long-term quality concernsE (ADUs were never shipped to customers, after all), then *nix is fine.t :-)w   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 08:10:09 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 4 Subject: Re: ODS-2 read/write filesystem for Linux ?3 Message-ID: <NznmMQn7Q6KC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <b358c3$1ipmtl$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:-( > In article <3E5508BF.D19A1AB2@hp.com>,+ > 	Joshua Cope <Joshua.Cope@hp.com> writes:.G >> I don't think anyone's using Linux for development anymore. The only.F >> thing I know of that's not built on VMS (using cross-compilers) at E >> this point is the VMS loader program, which is an EFI application.- >>   > C > You know, considering how much time the people here spend bashinga? > Linux (which it well deserves, but I digress) it really seemsoA > funny that you needed it to do the port of VMS to Itanium.  :-)k  2 They didn't _need_ it, but it made the job easier.  B Scuttlebutt has it that VMS Development also has raised their lineF speeds, even though hardly any of them can type faster than 1200 baud.  E An astute observer might also think that some in this newsgroup would'H object if the port to Itanium took the "longest but purest" approach :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:31:06 -0400-0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>* Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the/ Message-ID: <3E567E76.1B97322E@vl.videotron.ca>I  M 1- If HP is truly serous about VMS, it will rename it freom openVMS to HP-VMSn or hpVMS  N How does HP-UX plan to annonced itself when it boots on that IA64 thing ?  HowN does Tandem plan to announce itself ? Perhaps VMS will have to follow what the corporate standard will be.   N Personally, I'd rather not even know it runs on some intel chip. Just say "VMS" forever" instead of "VMS Itanium".    K Alternatively, it should return exactly what F$GETSYI("ARCH_NAME") returns.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:22:17 -0400n0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>* Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the/ Message-ID: <3E56B418.80C834DD@vl.videotron.ca>"  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:L > operating system - we want to use Windows, the industry standard", the VMSP > proponent can reply "See -- VMS is Industry Standard - it's even in the name!"  F Did adding "Open" do anything positive to VMS except cause confusion ?  M I just renewed some subscription to Oracle Magazine. Their form has "VMS" and L "Open VMS" in the lisst of operating systems. (And lacked Oracle RBB" in the database products section).-   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:32:31 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")* Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the6 Message-ID: <00A1BD4F.4B932BEB@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  b In article <3E56B418.80C834DD@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:+ >Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:nM >> operating system - we want to use Windows, the industry standard", the VMSKQ >> proponent can reply "See -- VMS is Industry Standard - it's even in the name!"a >eG >Did adding "Open" do anything positive to VMS except cause confusion ?   0 Did I say it did?  (Are we playing 'Questions'?)  N So, no, I understand why they did the name change from VMS to OpenVMS (becauseM it was during the big rush to "Open Systems", and they'd added Posix) but it  7 didn't turn out to win much and it did cause confusion.t  F I suppose it's possible that people will be confused between "IndustryJ Standard" [Open]VMS on Intel and "Weird Niche Product" [Open]VMS on Alpha.   > N >I just renewed some subscription to Oracle Magazine. Their form has "VMS" andM >"Open VMS" in the lisst of operating systems. (And lacked Oracle RBB" in thee >database products section).  @ And speaking of confusion, lots of people think "Oracle Rdb" is 7 Oracle Server.  I don't know how to fix _that_, either.s   -- Alanm    O ===============================================================================i0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056fM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025/O ===============================================================================P   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:43:48 -0800t$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>* Subject: RE: Official OpenVMS name for the0 Message-ID: <01C2D9C8.6D97D9B0@sulfer.icius.com>   -----Original Message-----$ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU <snip>F >So, no, I understand why they did the name change from VMS to OpenVMS (becauseN >it was during the big rush to "Open Systems", and they'd added Posix) but it 8 >didn't turn out to win much and it did cause confusion. >LG >I suppose it's possible that people will be confused between "Industry)K >Standard" [Open]VMS on Intel and "Weird Niche Product" [Open]VMS on Alpha.E <snip>  F Well, darn. I didn't see it until you said that. HP just called VMS anG "Industry Standard" product. Does this herald it leaving the niche? TheEF two terms OpenVMS and Industry Standard sure as hell haven't been usedC in the same sentence in a long time. Dare I hope for an advertising:H campaign when OpenVMS I64 goes gold? Would someone who believes in a god@ (any of them, I'm not fussy), please start praying on my behalf?   Shane2   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:55:38 GMTR. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)* Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the3 Message-ID: <uMA5a.36645$Rb4.486167@news.chello.at>l  b In article <3E567E76.1B97322E@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:L >Alternatively, it should return exactly what F$GETSYI("ARCH_NAME") returns.  O Which I like to see changed _before_ it gets in real use: "IA-64" is suboptimall   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERn% Network and OpenVMS system specialista E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 04:05:27 GMTf# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>2* Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for theH Message-ID: <bGC5a.37178$UXa.19709@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  ' ""Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr""o1 <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> wrote in messagee0 news:00A1BD4F.4B932BEB@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU...: > In article <3E56B418.80C834DD@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei) <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:r > > F > >I just renewed some subscription to Oracle Magazine. Their form has	 "VMS" andiC > >"Open VMS" in the lisst of operating systems. (And lacked Oracleo RBB" in ther > >database products section). >7A > And speaking of confusion, lots of people think "Oracle Rdb" is 9 > Oracle Server.  I don't know how to fix _that_, either.c  	 How aboutu   OracleLite = 9ii Oracle = Rdb   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:19:24 -0800 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>rY Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?ISO-8859-1?B?SXRhbml1ba4=?= releases and  pr-8 Message-ID: <20030221131924.0a110513.mathog@caltech.edu>   On 21 Feb 2003 10:53:22 -080052 susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) wrote: >  > What's in a name?  >  > Official Name- >-$ > "hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64"   , Amazing, the name of the product includes an@ advertisement for Intel.  There's nothing, absolutely _nothing_,C "Industry Standard" about IA64.  In all likelihood there never willoB be.  IA64 is a proprietary product of a single company.  It is far? less "standard" than the x86 architecture because it is neithera8 commonly seen nor are there other sources for the part. = I've seen the exact same drivel from Dell.  Somebody needs tos9 sue the lot of them for false and misleading advertising.s  ? The lowercase "hp" is expected.  No pride - no capitals in the   company name.     B The "Open" in OpenVMS is a long lost cause - it had little meaningE when POSIX went in and no meaning at all since POSIX was ripped out. M   >  > Informal Name0 >H > "OpenVMS I64"0  3 Which is pretty much as it should be:  it just says-2 "VMS on Intel's 64bit CPU".  (The Open is silent.)% Short, descriptive, and to the point.    > F > hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 conveys the true strategic directionG > for OpenVMS as a viable, robust, and evolving operating system on the % > industry standard 64-bit platform. (  A Strange, that's not at all what it says to me.  I read it more as  "hp is Intel's bitch".   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 15:24:14 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young):O Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?iso-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE?= releases:3 Message-ID: <9ks+Y4O3+mNH@eisner.encompasserve.org>0  b In article <3E56806F.8E16A8C6@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: > Sue Skonetski wrote:$ >> "hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64" > G > Is this an official announcement that VMS is being ported to HAMMER ?  > N > IA64 is NOT industry standard. Please, put that into everyone's head at HP.  >   ? 	At one time, IA32 wasn't industry standard either.  It appears ? 	they are getting a jump on branding and marketing.  Smart moveD 	on their part.    > P > Until the port to Hammer is officially announced, you are misleading customersM > by using "industry standard". The industry standard is the 8086. And Hammer,P > will, for now, be the only one offering a 64 bit version of industry standard. >   2 	John McCalpin (Dr. John, author of STREAM, formerE 	professor at Univerisity of Delaware, former SGI employee, currentlyf; 	at IBM in high performance design) tells us the following:a  W http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b334r4%248sg%241%40ausnews.austin.ibm.com&oe=UTF-8t  / From: McCalpin (mccalpin@gmp246.austin.ibm.com)i. Subject: Re: Same cache block optimizations?? % View: Complete Thread (14 articles)  d Original Format  Newsgroups: comp.archr Date: 2003-02-20  B "Without directories, Opteron systems are not likely to scale very@ well past 4 cpus.   The low-dimension interconnect combined with? the broadcast snoops will result in both a significant increasesA in memory latency (local and remote) as well as a high percentagea@ of the HT links' bandwidth being used for snoops and responses."    > 	Read the follow-up threads.  The conclusion there was/is that@ 	Red Storm (the 10000 CPU Sandia Opteron) is a T3E knock-off and 	not cache coherent.  D 	Now perhaps you may wish to wander over to comp.arch and straighten@ 	those guys out or tell us how we will see an 8, 16+ CPU Opteron? 	box in the next 2 years?  That would be helpful to stating anddA 	supporting a case for Opteron's greatness or would help convince  	me.  D 	Point is, Opteron will have its nice little niche and will no doubt: 	make Intel crank and crank and lower prices on Xeon.  But1 	it isn't a very interesting debate.  Or is it?     B 	Maybe a large upward trend in AMD stock price and/or AMD Opteron A 	partners to show something fantastic about to be sprung on us?  iD 	Sun selling them?  Well... okay, but where is the stock movement or; 	any ancillary evidence Opteron will gain traction for AMD?P   				Rob/  E "FIRE God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, not of philosophers and scholars,,L Certainty, certainty, heartfelt, joy, peace. God of Jesus Christ. My God andJ your God, Thy God shall be my God."   -- Blaise Pascal - November 23, 1654   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:39:32 -0400e0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>Y Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?iso-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE?= releases	and  prodn/ Message-ID: <3E56806F.8E16A8C6@vl.videotron.ca>-   Sue Skonetski wrote:# > "hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64"m  E Is this an official announcement that VMS is being ported to HAMMER ?s  L IA64 is NOT industry standard. Please, put that into everyone's head at HP.   J *IF* and when IA64 does become industry standard and replaces the 8086-32,J then you can think about using the monicker "industry standard". But until? that happens, it is "HP proprietary" that applies more to IA64.   @ Please do not attempt to shove horse manure up to the customers.  N IBM was able to make 8086 "industry standard" because it its heavy weight, itsQ name and the fact that the only competitors were Apple and Commodore at the time.   K HP doesn't have the same influence on the industry today as IBM had back in  early 1980s.  F > hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 conveys the true strategic directionG > for OpenVMS as a viable, robust, and evolving operating system on thee$ > industry standard 64-bit platform.  N Until the port to Hammer is officially announced, you are misleading customersK by using "industry standard". The industry standard is the 8086. And HammeraN will, for now, be the only one offering a 64 bit version of industry standard.    M I realine that the VMS groups must toe the HP corporate line, but it is up touL Intel to make IA64 industry standard,  HP doesn't have the power to do that.L And the minute Intel conceeded the desktop, there was no way that IA64 would become industry standard.   N IA64 is a high end low volume chip with less "industry standard" in its target markets than Sparc.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 22:09:52 -0600n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>.Y Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?iso-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE?= releases	and  prod ' Message-ID: <3E56F810.65E58841@fsi.net>M   Sue Skonetski wrote: >  > Dear Newsgroup,t > B > Please keep in mind that this has just come out and may not have > reached all parts of HP yet. > Warm Regards,t > Sue  >  > From:   Hanley, Williama+ > Sent:   Friday, February 21, 2003 1:23 PMm( > To:     OpenVMS Systems Software GroupG > Cc:     Sidwell, Bill; Smiddy, Karen; Jansen, Elaine; Larrabee, Mary;c > Howard, StepheneO > Subject:        Official OpenVMS name for the Itanium releases and  productse >  > What's in a name?r > H > Quite a bit, if the name is for the highly anticipated port of OpenVMS$ > to the Intel Itanium platform!!! >  > Official Namer? > The following is the official name for OpenVMS on the ItaniumtF > platform. This is the full name of the product and to be used in any0 > title, header, and first mention in body text. > # > "hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64"E  H That *THUMP* *THUMP* *THUMP* you hear is me banging my head on the desk.+ (Why? 'Cuz it'll feel so good when I stop!)i  A *ALPHA* *IS* the Industry Standard 64-bit technology. Itanic is agH fledgling wanna-be with a long way to go before it's mass-producible and ready-for-prime-time.    > Informal Name @ > The following is the informal use of the name. We can use thisE > abbreviated name after we formally state the official name and haven' > subsequent references to the product.4 >  > "OpenVMS I64"3  9 Well, that at least is three characters, like VAX or AXP.f  D > Many thanks go out to all those who contributed creative ideas forH > consideration. On considering all recommendations, legal requirements,E > and branding needs hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 became the name.a  F I'd have gone more along the lines of OpenVMS/64 or something similar,H but what's done is done. For reference, see any Linux or *BSD website or@ FTP mirror observe that the distro.'s for the supported CPUs are+ organized under the main product directory.   F > hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 conveys the true strategic directionG > for OpenVMS as a viable, robust, and evolving operating system on thel$ > industry standard 64-bit platform.  G Itanic is "emerging", not yet any kind of "standard". Already addressedo! that above. Don't get me started!n   --   David J. DachteraM dba DJE Systems3 http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:44:36 GMT.0 From: rw@vorpalbunnyeircom.net (Russell Wallace)Y Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?iso-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE?= releases  and  pro / Message-ID: <3e569c14.18587439@news.eircom.net>-  , On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:39:32 -0400, JF Mezei( <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:  M >IA64 is NOT industry standard. Please, put that into everyone's head at HP. o  @ I completely agree with you, but at the same time it's a logical marketing move on HP's part.  D As I was explaining at length in an earlier thread :) - the computerC industry is one in which network effects are very strong; there's aeE big advantage in using the same chip, operating system etc that a lothF of other people are using. That's why VMS enthusiasts keep calling forF more marketing - apart from convincing people of its intrinsic merits,F a typical customer will be more likely to buy the product if he thinks+ a lot of other people are hearing about it.o  E Now, I agree there's no longer any prospect of IA64 becoming industryeD standard, but it would be to HP's advantage to convince people there9 is, so it's logical that they're still trying to do that.n   -- k3 "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."w+ Remove killer rodent from address to reply.c! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:48:42 GMTn' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net>tY Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?iso-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AEreleases?=	and  produn+ Message-ID: <3E569F82.C14E5836@pacbell.net>l   I like:D 	hpVMS/Alpha & hpVMS/Itanium+ 	"Two Flavors. One Secure 64 Bit Standard."    -- t   Have VMS, Will Travele Wire paladin, San FranciscoW   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)! _________________________________o   David Mathog wrote:L >  > On 21 Feb 2003 10:53:22 -0800S4 > susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) wrote: > >4 > > What's in a name?5 > >W > > Official NameC > >k% > > "hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64"m > . > Amazing, the name of the product includes anB > advertisement for Intel.  There's nothing, absolutely _nothing_,E > "Industry Standard" about IA64.  In all likelihood there never will D > be.  IA64 is a proprietary product of a single company.  It is farA > less "standard" than the x86 architecture because it is neithers9 > commonly seen nor are there other sources for the part.Q? > I've seen the exact same drivel from Dell.  Somebody needs to0; > sue the lot of them for false and misleading advertising.C > @ > The lowercase "hp" is expected.  No pride - no capitals in the > company name.l > D > The "Open" in OpenVMS is a long lost cause - it had little meaningF > when POSIX went in and no meaning at all since POSIX was ripped out. >  > >z > > Informal Nameg > >h > > "OpenVMS I64"z > 5 > Which is pretty much as it should be:  it just saysC4 > "VMS on Intel's 64bit CPU".  (The Open is silent.)' > Short, descriptive, and to the point.0 >  > >SH > > hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 conveys the true strategic directionI > > for OpenVMS as a viable, robust, and evolving operating system on they& > > industry standard 64-bit platform. > C > Strange, that's not at all what it says to me.  I read it more asW > "hp is Intel's bitch". > 
 > Regards, >  > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu@ > Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:04:11 +0100V) From: Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl>XY Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE_re?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?-6 Message-ID: <3e56863b$0$49108$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>   James Gessling wrote:,@ > "Sue Skonetski" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> wrote in message9 > news:857e9e41.0302211053.4c43b5c8@posting.google.com...g > # >>"hp OpenVMS Industry Standard 64"e >> > ? > No offence Sue, but yuch.  And why is "hp" lowercase?  And as2> > a former AMD employee I hate the term "Industry Standard" as6 > a code word for Intel.  Can't they just say "Intel"? >  > Jime >  >   F Yes, and the combination of "Open" (at least it's original intention) < and "Industry Standard" seem a bit of a contradiction to me.  	 Bart Zorn    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:25:06 -0800s& From: Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com>Y Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Itanium=AE_re?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?l/ Message-ID: <v5d68rd4a54u6f@corp.supernews.com>2   David Mathog wrote:   A > The lowercase "hp" is expected.  No pride - no capitals in the g > company name.  r  2 That's not what it's about - see my previous post.   -- c
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Feb 2003 02:58:18 GMT From: rmk@rmkhome.comP< Subject: Re: Official OpenVMS name for the Itanium? releases3 Message-ID: <3e56e74a$0$198$75868355@news.frii.net>s  , Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:  F > 	Now perhaps you may wish to wander over to comp.arch and straightenB > 	those guys out or tell us how we will see an 8, 16+ CPU OpteronA > 	box in the next 2 years?  That would be helpful to stating anddC > 	supporting a case for Opteron's greatness or would help convinceo > 	me.  H Just my opinion, but the 4-way server business is huge. Once the vendorsH start shipping 4-way opteron boxes there will be no need to buy anythingG from Intel again, at least in that class of machine. There are a lot ofn; 4-way Alpha, Sparc, and PA-Risc machines out there as well.c  J It's easy to opine about 8 and 16 way opteron boxes, but consider that IBMC just tossed their Itanic projects in the dustbin. Called the chip ad "science project". --  , rmk@rmkhome.com		http://www.rmkhome.com/~rmk   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:33:36 -0500a& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>Y Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retai 8 Message-ID: <u6lc5vkklms6016rvmoap4vrnrvj6ruj4i@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:07:18 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyr. <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:   >a >n
 >jlsue wrote:s   >> iB >> Ha!  I asked you to provide evidence for two years for all yourE >> constant bilge about there being loads of customers with GS160/320 C >> that were slower than their GS140.  For TWO YEARS you constantlyoG >> spewed crap that it was all over the news group.  I even provided myaB >> search criteria and the results in order to get some additionalD >> information from you to back up your claim.  And when you finallyG >> relent and provide something, it's only 1 or 2 data points.  And fornG >> the 2nd one, I, once again, have to do all the work.  The irony, andfG >> the reason I reject this argument from you, is that you consistentlybE >> reject such claims from us of a similar nature (re. customers with < >> VMSclusters who get perfect uptime, and great application >> compatibility). >> , >d8 >No for two years I suggested that you had a little look5 >at the archives for this newsgroup and for two yearsf >you didn't.  > I did look at the archives, and didn't find anything worthy ofC discussion, and certainly nothing to support your claims.  And you,2D yourself, have only provided ONE note that comes close to supporting your claims.   >19 >Sadly as you know now if you had tried a bit harder then 7 >you would have found the result you were hoping wasn'ts >there.y  C I tried again with your suggested search, and found 353 articles ofe< which ONE (the same one mentioned above) that comes close to supporting your claims.r  F But, as your response shows, you still expect everyone else to do mostE all the work to "prove" your fud.  I believe I made a simple request:vB If you make a statement as a generalization, please provide enoughA evidence to support your claims.  Your response, consistently, ist? "it's in the google archives, find it yourself" (paraphrasing).m   >.5 >Ironically you also didn't do any of the work if your1 >remember I was the person you pointed you to the 1 >article, you just waffled on about there being a42 >lot of GS160 articles and how you hadn't searched
 >them all.  E Again, it's your statement, thus *your* responsibility to support it.o   >p5 >All you have demonstrated in this discussion is thatf8 >you are powerfully motivated to ignore what was sitting9 >under your nose, it does after all trash your arguments.   C All you have demonstrated is that you can make vague statements and5( claim proof, but not provide that proof.   >.  >If you want more then how about > L>http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&output=search&threadm=20020313191959.14633.00001814%40mb-fc.aol.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DGS140%2BGS160%2Bperformance%2Bgroup:comp.os.vms%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26output%3Dsearch%26selm%3D20020313191959.14633.00001814%2540mb-fc.aol.com%26rnum%3D1 > : >It also documents your benchmarking teams thoughts on the: >issues arround NUMA which are were apparently well known. > = >Well know obviously not by you, how about making an internaly >call to the team at Nashua.  C Very informative article.  I think someone in did publish in here aeE document from engineering that explains numa performance details.  Soi. there was no attempt to hide this information.  B However, if you really read this article, you'd see that it, also,E does not provide enough info to prove your generalization.  What this ? note states about the performance problems are in relation to a F specific application with specific characteristics (though it providesC no details what those characteristics are).  I still see no smokingh8 gun that the GS160 is slower than the GS140 - a sweeping' generalization that your commonly make.i   >h# >How many smoking guns do you want.-  E I want proof of your generalizations on the performance of the gs160, E that's all.  Something that is more likely to apply to 85+ percent oft the applications.i   >dF >> But sure, that must prove your contention that Wildfire systems areH >> slower than older 8400/gs140 technology.  I suppose for a Sun FUDsterG >> extraordinairre such as yourself there must be lots of customers youR( >> can convince with such thin evidence. >> o > ; >So why did your engineering team give an existing customer ; >and a prospective GS160 customer the impression that there = >are in fact performance problems with the NUMA GS systems ??f  D Can't you read?  This details issues with certain characteristics in= application designs.  There is NOTHING that can be applied toe6 applications in general, and thus to GS160 in general.   >09 >My suggestion is that you appologise to me and the group0; >for the BS you have spouted over the last couple of years,s? >and do something constructive which BTW isn't posting anythingt6 >about clusters, performance or anything else that may >catch you out on this group.t  E What BS, specifically are you going on about?  You have no experiencecD with clusters, so I doubt you could catch me out on anything in thatD vein.  And on this particular topic (gs140 vs gs160), I'm not makingA any claims about performance.  I only ask you to provide your ownoE evidence by which you make generalized  claims of performance issues.p  F If you can't support your claims with something based in reality, then don't make them.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 14:28:23 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)( Subject: Re: Oracle on OpenVMS on Marvel= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0302211428.25c151d9@posting.google.com>e   "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in message news:<BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660DA5@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>..., > Bill,. > F > >>> No benchmarks, though:  can't do anything that might make Itanic > look bad.>>> > 6 > Not sure if you saw this SAP info, but just in case-* > http://www.sap.com/benchmark/sd2tier.asp > E > Sun Fire 15K: 1,789,000 dialog steps per hr. - 72 CPU's, Oracle 9i.tF > Alpha GS 1280: 1,393,000 dialog steps per hr. - 32 CPU's, Oracle 9i. > G > Considering Oracle typically charges per cpu, the GS1280 looks prettyT > good.  >  > :-)s > 	 > Regardsy >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultanto > Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.# > Consulting & Integration Services0 > Voice: 613-592-4660e > Fax   : 613-591-4477 > Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom/ >     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)t! > OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM  >   ; well Andrew, how will you rebuff these numbers?  More lies?a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:41:12 -0500a* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>( Subject: Re: Oracle on OpenVMS on Marvel2 Message-ID: <w4ucnfesW4OiSMujXTWcpg@metrocast.net>  2 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660DA5@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. .. Bill,a  D >>> No benchmarks, though:  can't do anything that might make Itanic look bad.>>>  4 Not sure if you saw this SAP info, but just in case-( http://www.sap.com/benchmark/sd2tier.asp  C Sun Fire 15K: 1,789,000 dialog steps per hr. - 72 CPU's, Oracle 9i.=D Alpha GS 1280: 1,393,000 dialog steps per hr. - 32 CPU's, Oracle 9i.  E Considering Oracle typically charges per cpu, the GS1280 looks prettyt good.h  F Of course it looks good, and not just compared with SPARC.  My commentK referred to the report (supposedly from HPQ) that they weren't going to runt TPC-C benchmarks on EV7.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 16:22:43 -0800  From: nmanser@progis.de (Manser)  Subject: Pathworks print problem= Message-ID: <2178d61f.0302211622.24f94ba1@posting.google.com>   	 Hi folks,s  ? i conected a epson stylus color II to the parallel port of the y as800 (VMS 7.1, pathworks 6.0B)a the client is a windows2000 PC.L  E when i print from VMS i got no problem, but when i print from PC sideoE printername \\SERVER\SERVER_PRINT i got garbage, event when i print a 	 testpage._F perhaps this is not the right newsgroup as the problem occurs from the PC side,B but the printer is served to the PC via Pathworks advanced server.9 can anyone out there tell me if he had the same problem ?     * I set up a print share like the following:   SERVER> admin show print queue  F Name         Jobs  Status               Printer/Routing    Description: ------------ ----- -------------------- ------------------H ------------------------------------------------------------------------, ALPHA1_PRINT     0 PAUSED destination paused4                                         LRA0:GENERIC4 SERVER_PRINT     0 ACTIVE               LRA0:GENERIC TCPIP$SMTP_ALPHA1_00<                  0 ACTIVE               TCPIP$SMTP_ALPHA1_01 TCPIP$SMTP_ALPHA1_01,                  0 PAUSED destination paused/                                         GENERICe    4 ARBEITSGRUPPE\\SERVER> add share /print SERVER_print$ /description="Epson stylus color II"? %PWRK-S-SHAREADD, share "SERVER_PRINT" added on server "SERVER"g  5 ARBEITSGRUPPE\\SERVER> show shares server_print /fullt  $ Shared resources on server "SERVER":  $ Name          Type       Description ------------  --------- 7 -------------------------------------------------------h. SERVER_PRINT  Printer    Epson stylus color II     Path: SERVER_PRINT/     Connections:  Current: 0, Maximum: No limitl     Share Permissions:@         Everyone                                            Full Control0     Total of 1 share  # SERVER> sh queue server_print /fulla@ Printer queue SERVER_PRINT, idle, on SERVER::LRA0:, mounted form DEFAULTc0   /AUTOSTART_ON=(SERVER::LRA0:) /BASE_PRIORITY=4, /DEFAULT=(FEED,FORM=DEFAULT) /OWNER=[SYSTEM] /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S)D     Any help is appreciated    Nazim Manser   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 16:58:54 -0800  From: nmanser@progis.de (Manser) Subject: print problem= Message-ID: <2178d61f.0302211658.4244507a@posting.google.com>t  	 Hi folks,   @ I connected a printer to the parallel port of an AS800 (VMS 7.1)& i have made the following experiences:  E 1) when i connect a LEXMARK Z42 printer, i got from VMS the followingo message:   SERVER>print aaa.txt  0 Job AAA (queue SERVER_PRINT, entry 14) completed   But nothing is printed.iE and when i connect the LEXmark printer to the PC (win2000) then thereu is no problem printing.p  > 2) when i connect a EPSON STYLUS COLOR II, the file is printed	 normally.l   here are the settings:    SERVER> sh dev lra0 /full  F Printer LRA0:, device type LP11, is online, allocated, record-oriented device,b     carriage control.r  F     Error count                    0    Operations completed                241F     Owner process       "SYMBIONT_3"    Owner UIC                      [SYSTEM]=     Owner process ID        2020011C    Dev Prot             B S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,WtF     Reference count                2    Default buffer size                 132F     Page width                   132    Page Length                          661     Carriage_return     Formfeed        Uppercasen3     No Passall          No Wrap         No Printalle3     No Fallback         No Tab          No Truncate 9     No Sixels           No Bitmapped            No Polleda    # SERVER> sh queue server_print /fullb@ Printer queue SERVER_PRINT, idle, on SERVER::LRA0:, mounted form DEFAULTf0   /AUTOSTART_ON=(SERVER::LRA0:) /BASE_PRIORITY=4, /DEFAULT=(FEED,FORM=DEFAULT) /OWNER=[SYSTEM] /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S)s    B can anyone tell me why the lexmark doesn't print from VMS although. VMS tells me that the JOB completed normally ?   Thanks to all answers.   Nazim Manser   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 13:07:28 -0800* From: ken.randell@fortel.com (Ken Randell)( Subject: PRODUCT INSTALL /DEBUG switches= Message-ID: <8debc3ff.0302211307.65035b15@posting.google.com>f  D Having recently encounter a project to create some PCSI installationC kits, I've noticed in the 'POLYCENTER Software Installation UtilitypC Developer's Guide' dated April 2001 (order #AA-Q28MD-TK) mentions awB '/DEBUG=CONFLICT' qualifier.  While documented in the manual, thisC qualifier is not documented in the on-line help for PRODUCT INSTALLd (VMS 7.3-1).  < I've noticed there are other switches as well, as in: ALPHA, CONTINUE_ERRORSo@ DISABLE<1-4>, ENABLE<1-4>, FULL, IO, LOCK, LOG_REPAIR, NOPROMPT,> NOREAD_BUILD_IDENT, NOWRITE_BUILD_IDENT, ORDER, REMOTE, SHELL,! STATISTICS, TEST, VERBOSE, X<1-8>   C While the usage of some of these is obvious (statistics), and othercF appear to cause PCSI to give an ACCVIO (lock, full), has anyone looked3 into the others and have other information on them?    Thanks.r   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 20:27:49 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) , Subject: Re: PRODUCT INSTALL /DEBUG switches3 Message-ID: <4golo7$3Dc3G@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  j In article <8debc3ff.0302211307.65035b15@posting.google.com>, ken.randell@fortel.com (Ken Randell) writes:F > Having recently encounter a project to create some PCSI installationE > kits, I've noticed in the 'POLYCENTER Software Installation Utility E > Developer's Guide' dated April 2001 (order #AA-Q28MD-TK) mentions aAD > '/DEBUG=CONFLICT' qualifier.  While documented in the manual, thisE > qualifier is not documented in the on-line help for PRODUCT INSTALLn > (VMS 7.3-1).  H I think an email to openvmsdocs@<whatever> would be in order.  Help text5 counts as part of the documentation the last I heard.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:10:17 GMTK7 From: brad@.homeportal.2wire.net (Bradford J. Hamilton) - Subject: RE: Seeking ALPSYSA03_071 patch kit.e? Message-ID: <tQu5a.200475$HN5.853566@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>   u In article <91947A84607D9D48B8E674A5FAB54DA63CB1F5@tahiti.tinuk.com>, "Steve Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com> writes:u >Really? >r* >I get this [searching for ALPSYSA03_071]; >a >Search for: =20> >Results per page:  102050 Output format:  LongShortURL Match:G >AllAnyBoolean Search for:  Whole wordBeginningEndingSubstring through:t= >Entire siteOpenVMSTru64UltrixWindowsNTUltrixReadmes in:  allo) >sectionsDescriptionKeywordsTitleBody =20i >o >An error occured!=20h5 >#1016: Can't open file: 'dict3.MYD'. (errno: 145)=20r >nG >and have done so the last two days I've been looking [well, that's not G >EXACTLY the whole error -=3D the bit under search is just what you gete >when cut'n'paste from IE].=20 >t
 >Steve Spires  >Technical Consultant=
 >Torex Health= >[T] +44 (0) 1295 274200 >[F] +44 (0) 1295 275131 >www.torex.com   Steve,  1 I don't know if you have access from the UK, but:l  L http://ftp1.support.compaq.com/public/vms/axp/v7.1/alpsys20_071.a-dcx_axpexe   should get you the patch.d  
 Good luck!   <snip>  A _________________________________________________________________=0 Bradford J. Hamilton			"All opinions are my own"/ bMradAhamiPltSon@atMtAbi.cPoSm		"Lose the MAPS"n   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 11:56:21 -0800( From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) Subject: Re: The End of OpenVMS-; Message-ID: <c5cf6e8.0302211156.c6b168a@posting.google.com>I  w "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote in message news:<3e54e126$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>...t
 > Dear Troll,i  6 Troll? Talk about the pot that calls the kettle black.  - > I've got an elephant who wants to meet you.p > H > You might notice that unlike many other groups, the people in this oneM > seldom "hide" behind cutesy names.  To reveal who you are, would alow us tonM > judge your apparent intimate knowledge of what either the collective HP, orsK > perhaps it's executives think about OpenVMS.  Or if you have a clue aboutu > anything else. >  >  > 7 > "Baby Peanut" <baby_p_nut@yahoo.com> wrote in messaged8 > news:c5cf6e8.0302191104.430817ea@posting.google.com...J > > OpenVMS users are kidding themselves if they think it can survive as aF > > viable platform.  Their product is being handled by a company thatC > > views it as an end-stage legacy system and "political" tool forT< > > getting in bed with Intel.  Their market is not growing. > >AF > > The Itanic simply isn't keeping up with the other chips out there.I > > It's totally outclassed in terms of price at the low end and in termsaI > > of performance at the high end.  A news story today is reporting thatcH > > IBM have a Power 5 system running in their labs.  Power 5 is due forG > > release next year.  Given that Power 4 already wipes the floor withlB > > Itanic on performance they haven't got a hope against the next > > generation.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:00:35 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t Subject: Re: The End of OpenVMS:G Message-ID: <Dzv5a.35572$UXa.4174@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>.  7 "Jason Brady" <jrbrady@mindspring.com> wrote in messagei2 news:crjc5v4923k4nj4i6n53rgosal42qi3qrt@4ax.com...A > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:11:59 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  wrote: ><F > >We, the customers and users of VMS, know that VMS is in jeopardy as@ > >long as no or feeble attempts are made to market VMS to *new* > >customers - ... >mF > Oracle ran an advertisement on the back cover of a recent edition ofD > The Economist:  "Oracle and Linux - Unbreakable".  I'm not a LinuxD > expert, but I'd bet that a similar claim could be made for OpenVMS andr > Rdb!   Orders of magnitude more so.      ? > So where are the ads, HP?  (Especially I.T. publications, not-4 > just those targeted at executives and management.)   A very good question.<      D > >Marketing inertia, when it gets going, cuts both ways, for you orD > >against you. Microsoft has successfully demonstrates how it works form+ > >you, even with an inferior product - ...  >0@ > Don't forget the educational market.  Nearly all of my youngerE > co-workers, both I.T. and business, only know about Windows (with arC > smattering of various flavors of UNIX/Linux).  They're the future > > leaders in the organization--if they lack early awareness of OpenVMS,> > you can be sure their receptivity to a future sales pitch is severely
 > diminished.i    ; Get VMS in .edu market and then run ads like this on campusr, newspapers, ...hell run them in the WSJ now:    D [Picture of dudes on surfboards, rock climbing, hang gliding, bungee
 jumping. ]  F "Wouldn't you rather be doing something else instead of installing theE latest patch of worms, viruses, recabling the data center, or dealingo with the latest CERT advisory?  D Systems running OpenVMS allow you to do this and much more 24/7/365. With absolute security.nE In clusters spanning hundreds of miles while the competition is still0 taking baby steps.? E-commerce. Securities trading. Banking. Telecom. Distribution.  Refining. Data warehousing., OpenVMS does it all and more. ! We've been doing it for 25 years.a  $ Be the best. Use the best. OpenVMS."  * (c) 2003, John Smith. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  ' Also, "OpenVMS -it's hip to be square."s    ; (HP - my Cayman bank account is waiting for your check....)s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:21:01 -0500 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>e Subject: RE: The End of OpenVMSvT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660DAA@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  
 Hello Peanut,o  = >>> Troll? Talk about the pot that calls the kettle black.<<<r  E Those who drop by specific newsgroups dropping highly debateable "thenB sky is falling" type comments about that product or personal viewsD without providing facts to support those views and do as well do notB provide any real name information are generally considered trolls.   That's reality.t   Regardss  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicese Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)a OpenVMS DCL - the original .COMh     -----Original Message-----2 From: Baby Peanut [mailto:baby_p_nut@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: February 21, 2003 2:56 PMt To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms Subject: Re: The End of OpenVMS     D "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote in2 message news:<3e54e126$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>...
 > Dear Troll,p  6 Troll? Talk about the pot that calls the kettle black.  - > I've got an elephant who wants to meet you.e >=20H > You might notice that unlike many other groups, the people in this one  J > seldom "hide" behind cutesy names.  To reveal who you are, would alow=20D > us to judge your apparent intimate knowledge of what either the=20J > collective HP, or perhaps it's executives think about OpenVMS.  Or if=20& > you have a clue about anything else. >=20 >=20 >=20: > "Baby Peanut" <baby_p_nut@yahoo.com> wrote in message=208 > news:c5cf6e8.0302191104.430817ea@posting.google.com...H > > OpenVMS users are kidding themselves if they think it can survive as  H > > a viable platform.  Their product is being handled by a company that  F > > views it as an end-stage legacy system and "political" tool for=20< > > getting in bed with Intel.  Their market is not growing. > >kI > > The Itanic simply isn't keeping up with the other chips out there.=20vF > > It's totally outclassed in terms of price at the low end and in=20C > > terms of performance at the high end.  A news story today is=20lG > > reporting that IBM have a Power 5 system running in their labs. =20 H > > Power 5 is due for release next year.  Given that Power 4 already=20I > > wipes the floor with Itanic on performance they haven't got a hope=20B  > > against the next generation.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:26:09 -0500o' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>n Subject: RE: The End of OpenVMS T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660DAB@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   John,i  + I like it - are you open for marketing job?	  H [btw - I have been told the lobotomy from that is part of the transition2 does not hurt anywhere near as much as it used to]   :-)e   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantl Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Services- Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s): OpenVMS DCL - the original .COMe     -----Original Message-----+ From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com]=208 Sent: February 21, 2003 3:01 PMt To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn Subject: Re: The End of OpenVMSn      7 "Jason Brady" <jrbrady@mindspring.com> wrote in message 2 news:crjc5v4923k4nj4i6n53rgosal42qi3qrt@4ax.com...A > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:11:59 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  wrote: >dI > >We, the customers and users of VMS, know that VMS is in jeopardy as=20rC > >long as no or feeble attempts are made to market VMS to *new*=20l > >customers - ... >lI > Oracle ran an advertisement on the back cover of a recent edition of=20bG > The Economist:  "Oracle and Linux - Unbreakable".  I'm not a Linux=20eD > expert, but I'd bet that a similar claim could be made for OpenVMS ande > Rdb!   Orders of magnitude more so.      G > So where are the ads, HP?  (Especially I.T. publications, not just=20r/ > those targeted at executives and management.)n   A very good question.l      G > >Marketing inertia, when it gets going, cuts both ways, for you or=20aD > >against you. Microsoft has successfully demonstrates how it works fori+ > >you, even with an inferior product - ...h >nC > Don't forget the educational market.  Nearly all of my younger=20oH > co-workers, both I.T. and business, only know about Windows (with a=20F > smattering of various flavors of UNIX/Linux).  They're the future=20> > leaders in the organization--if they lack early awareness of OpenVMS,> > you can be sure their receptivity to a future sales pitch is severely
 > diminished.t    G Get VMS in .edu market and then run ads like this on campus newspapers,i ..hell run them in the WSJ now:o    D [Picture of dudes on surfboards, rock climbing, hang gliding, bungee
 jumping. ]  F "Wouldn't you rather be doing something else instead of installing theE latest patch of worms, viruses, recabling the data center, or dealingD with the latest CERT advisory?  D Systems running OpenVMS allow you to do this and much more 24/7/365.H With absolute security. In clusters spanning hundreds of miles while theG competition is still taking baby steps. E-commerce. Securities trading. H Banking. Telecom. Distribution. Refining. Data warehousing. OpenVMS does2 it all and more. We've been doing it for 25 years.  $ Be the best. Use the best. OpenVMS."  * (c) 2003, John Smith. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  ' Also, "OpenVMS -it's hip to be square."     ; (HP - my Cayman bank account is waiting for your check....)    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 14:25:11 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Re: The End of OpenVMSo= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0302211425.4fe2ef72@posting.google.com>t  s "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:<3lr5a.34525$UXa.20344@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...h > @ > A simple premise really. Why isn't it done? Why keep all VMS'sH > fabulous features and strengths a secret from companies the world-over, > that could really benefit from them today? >  > John( > (a VMS user and fan for over 20 years)  5 because someone is paying someone off, that's why ...m   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:21:03 -0500r* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: The End of OpenVMSt2 Message-ID: <CrmcnQwpYse2BsijXTWcow@metrocast.net>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messageP7 news:d7791aa1.0302201528.2a365043@posting.google.com...r5 > baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) wrote in messagee8 news:<c5cf6e8.0302191104.430817ea@posting.google.com>...J > > OpenVMS users are kidding themselves if they think it can survive as aF > > viable platform.  Their product is being handled by a company thatC > > views it as an end-stage legacy system and "political" tool fort< > > getting in bed with Intel.  Their market is not growing. > >aF > > The Itanic simply isn't keeping up with the other chips out there.I > > It's totally outclassed in terms of price at the low end and in termspI > > of performance at the high end.  A news story today is reporting thateH > > IBM have a Power 5 system running in their labs.  Power 5 is due forG > > release next year.  Given that Power 4 already wipes the floor withpB > > Itanic on performance they haven't got a hope against the next > > generation./ >/@ > this is a qoute from Terry Shannons article on openvms.org ... >:< > "We also hear that Madison price/performance is excellent.= > Having already surpassed Power 4 with McKinley, Intel plansu, > to upstage a 1.25 GHz Alpha with Madison."  G Terry, as usual, is happily spewing the cHumPaq party line, at least inzE public.  So it's not so surprising that he chooses to compare MadisontJ against EV68 (which it indeed should surpass, being a 4-year-newer design)J rather than against EV7, since otherwise he might have had to get into theK question of how EV79 would have fared against Madison if it hadn't recentlyuI been emasculated by reductions in both on-chip cache and clock rate - andtK how even EV7 will be a good deal better than all publicly-described Itanics F through at least 2005 in areas involving bandwidth and MP scalability.  F And rather than 'surpassing' POWER4, McKinley only about equaled it inG SPECint, led it slightly in SPECfp, and about equals it in TPC-C (as ofl> today; earlier McKinley results trailed POWER4 significantly).  L Of course, POWER4 is no longer the competition:  it's POWER4+, which has putL McKinley's SPECint performance in its rear-view mirror and if its clock rateL ramps up as expected should give Madison a very good run for its money.  NotK to mention POWER5 in 2004, which will add SMT, even higher clock rates, and-F on-chip enhancements (memory controller plus hardware acceleration forK multiple common functions) to its repertoire.  And Hammer still promises tor> embarrass *all* the high-end offerings in both performance andI price/performance (today's Inquirer reports that Sun will be announcing am4 Hammer server product at the official April launch).  H The single significant *new* item of information in the article was thatH Madison in its efforts to keep up with the Joneses gulps even more powerK than McKinley:  160 Watts.  Gives renewed meaning to the old 'smoking bricki of death' appellation.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:26:38 -0600m1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>n Subject: Re: The End of OpenVMSr& Message-ID: <3E56EDEE.8417B05@fsi.net>   Phil Jamieson wrote: > G > > ...barring any miracles, like a balls-out, throttle to the firewalluI > > marketing campaign, promises and commitments actually being kept, ...t > > that sort of thing.s > & > This got some mileage once for us... > * > www.softwarepartners.com/VMS_not_toy.pdf > D > If only H-P would run something like that in the Wall St. Journal.   Amen to that, Bro!   --   David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemsr http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 04:17:30 GMTs# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>N Subject: Re: The End of OpenVMS I Message-ID: <uRC5a.34363$b8v1.31592@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message 7 news:d7791aa1.0302211425.4fe2ef72@posting.google.com...n0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageD news:<3lr5a.34525$UXa.20344@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>... > > B > > A simple premise really. Why isn't it done? Why keep all VMS's? > > fabulous features and strengths a secret from companies the.
 world-over. > > that could really benefit from them today? > >a > > John* > > (a VMS user and fan for over 20 years) >h7 > because someone is paying someone off, that's why ...0    4 Bob, go take a Ritalin. Your ADD is acting up again.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 04:25:27 GMTE# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>3 Subject: Re: The End of OpenVMSaI Message-ID: <XYC5a.34428$b8v1.33435@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>l  4 > "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageF >news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660DAB@kaoexc01.americas.cpqco	 rp.net...o >John,  - > I like it - are you open for marketing job?2  E That Paul Newman movie springs to mind, "The Color of Money", as doese4 the line from 'Jerry Maguire' - "Show me the money."  " To answer your question......sure.    ? > [btw - I have been told the lobotomy from that is part of thea
 transition4 > does not hurt anywhere near as much as it used to]  E Good. I just got a brand new drool cup and I'm anxious to try it out.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:11:59 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>- Subject: Re: The End of OpenVMSaH Message-ID: <3lr5a.34525$UXa.20344@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  > "Sue Skonetski" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> wrote in message7 news:857e9e41.0302201915.1dab4ec5@posting.google.com...  > Dear Newsgroup,r > D > You know that little voice inside, you know the one that tells you to7 > take the high road and to not take things personally.c > F > Well guess what, this note is personal to me.  I am in the VMS groupD > because I belive in the product and our customers.  And if this is theNC > best that Peanut can do to try and intimidate this newsgroup they D > really need help.  We have been prounced dead by some of the best.> > What is the purpose of your note?  Are you offering a better	 solution?nB >  Do you have a better technology with better realiability, maybe > clustering or maybe security.r > 2 > Sue Skonetski and I have been called a VMS bigotB > OpenVMS - An obsolete operating system still used by hundreds ofF > obsolete companies serving billions of obsolete customers and makingB > huge obsolete profits for their obsolete shareholders.  And this? > year's new version, still considered obsolete, supports doingu& > e-business securely on the Internet.     Sue,  B I don't think anyone who *frequents* this n.g. thinks anything badC about VMS-the product, VMS-the engineers and developers, or VMS-the   suitability for nearly any task.  E What had driven  people here to voice often strident opinions is thataF there is precious little done by HP, and in the recent past by Compaq,F to effectively market VMS and Alpha to the rest of the world out there known as *new* customers.s  B While HP may believe that it is sufficient for them to port VMS toF IA-64 and do a few other things to VMS in order to retain/maintain its= VMS-related revenue stream, it is customers who see a seriouscE disconnect. Without new customer being brought on-board in steady andOF increasing numbers, eventually VMS will lose existing customer numbersB to the point of where an MPE decision begins to appear likely. AndE this is what customers fear, despite the somewhat slippery assurances.C we now hear from people who previously told us about the glories ofo3 EV8 and how IA-64 is a fatally flawed architecture.g  C We, the customers and users of VMS, know that VMS is in jeopardy ast= long as no or feeble attempts are made to market VMS to *new*hD customers - unless of course Rumsfeld has funded VMS for the next 25E years via some 'black' project at the DOD, which HP has naturally not> told us about.  A Marketing inertia, when it gets going, cuts both ways, for you orrE against you. Microsoft has successfully demonstrates how it works forrC you, even with an inferior product - the big cement-laden marketing E truck just gets moving through the city and pretty soon it broadsidesdD you - resistance is futile. On the other hand, HP and Compaq saw fitE to send the big cement-laden VMS marketing truck down a big hill on an@ back-country road in the dark of night, whereupon it hit a bump,A careened off the road, cut a path of destruction through a virgineB forest and then plunged over a cliff into the murk of an abandoned" quarry - never to been seen again.    7 The following is lifted from a recent newspaper column:pF " Keith Bradsher, the Detroit bureau chief for The New York Times fromC 1996 to 2001, spent years writing and researching 'High and Mighty: E SUVs: The World's Most Dangerous Vehicles and How They Got That Way'.h@ The book, which came out in the fall, chronicles the destructiveC nature of these vehicles. "The safe image [of SUVs] is an illusion.p? They roll over too easily, killing and injuring occupants at annE alarming rate, and they are dangerous to other road users, inflicting D catastrophic damage to cars that they hit and posing a lethal threat to pedestrians."  B Mr. Bradsher warns of a phenomenon called "network externalities."F Once SUVs achieve a critical mass on the road, most everyone else willA seek to purchase one in order to adapt to the product's increaseda9 presence, even if that product is inferior and dangerous.   E An example of this tendency, and perhaps one reason why drivers think.F SUVs are safer, is how their higher sight lines impair the sight linesA for everyone else on the road. Even something as insignificant as2? backing out of a parking space becomes a calculated risk when aDE driver's view is blocked by two hulking pieces of machinery parked on1+ either side of a normal-sized automobile. "o    ; Now my old English/Marketing teacher would have given me ann@ assignment: Using the excerpt above as an allegory, contrast and= compare OpenVMS and Microsoft/unix/Linux and create a producta? awareness campaign, for print, internet, and TV advertising for  OpenVMS.  > A simple premise really. Why isn't it done? Why keep all VMS'sF fabulous features and strengths a secret from companies the world-over* that could really benefit from them today?   John& (a VMS user and fan for over 20 years)   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Feb 2003 03:45:09 GMT From: rmk@rmkhome.com Y Subject: Re: unix, was Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly  vs.  IBM d3 Message-ID: <3e56f245$0$198$75868355@news.frii.net>n  D In alt.folklore.computers Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:  I > You've got to love the "at one point".  That's my argument.  The driveraJ > models should be forced into compatibility so that *one* driver will runI > on Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris on Intel, etc. without needing a recompile.  E > I'm used to looking at the "portable" software loaded with #ifdef'stG > because people can't even agree what directory to put an include files? > in.  Tha fact that Gnu autoconf even has to exist says a lot.r  D Linux is a constantly moving target. The only set in concrete driver> interfaces in the x86 UNIX world are probably Solaris and SCO. -- o, rmk@rmkhome.com		http://www.rmkhome.com/~rmk   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:32:25 GMTs) From: Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> Y Subject: Re: unix, was Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs.  IBM ma) Message-ID: <3E565F7A.EB52AB7F@yahoo.com>u   Rupert Pigott wrote:L > > models should be forced into compatibility so that *one* driver will runJ > > on Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris on Intel, etc. without needing a recompile. >  > Why ? That would be insane ! > ? > The internals of those OSes could be quite different, puttinguA > all the cfg into *run-time* instead of compile-time will almostt? > certainly increase the chance of nasty bugs, kill performancea> > AND make testing more complicated (oft forgotten problem)...  G Each system should provide a library similar to OS/2's DevHlp functions G for drivers.  They would be implemted differently for different unices,i6 but would provide a common set of services to drivers.  ? > Autoconf feels like overkill to me. However it does have some-B > utility... It encodes a lot of information about the differences= > between the targets that it supports - knowledge which mostO= > developers find the hard way... In the case of contemporaryt? > UNIXen Autoconf feels as if it is surplus to my requirements.s? > When it comes to crustier, dustier or more bizarre targets iti > is definately useful. ;)  E My argument us that there shouldn't be these differences that requiretB Autoconf.  The OS's can be as different as may be internally: TimeH slicing, paging, process scheduling, whatever, but there's no difference@ except plain desire to be different that keeps the C header fileE locations and library contents so different.  As often as "standards" D are created they're ignored.  If one system used cc and another uses@ gcc, okay, but how much else should change to recompile a set of	 programs?o   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 18:20:12 -0800' From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya)9O Subject: Re: unix, was Re: IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- MS Monopoly vs. IBM"& Message-ID: <3e56de5c$1@news.ucsc.edu>  ( In article <3E554E38.7881042@yahoo.com>,+ Peter Flass  <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:-$ >I'll NEVER understand unix poeople.  . I notice that you added the os.vms cross post.   >Put three of 'em and theirlG >computers in a room and you'll wind up with at least five more-or-less>E >incompatible versions.  With the free unices now available you would2= >think that everyone would work towards more rather than less.G >commonality.  If everyone doesn't want to switch to Linux, or FreeBSD, C >or whatever, why not at least try to take the best features of thenG >various versions and incorporate them into all the others, so that the0< >systems would become more rather than less alike over time.  E Because 3 close enough versions is better than 3 completely differentc= vendor OSes.  To quote a Cray Research Inc. engineer in 1984: : 	We are doing it because I don't want to learn 3 different2 	editors for 3 OSes (Cray, Amdahl (IBM), and VAX).@ And our users could not wait for DEC to rewrite VMS for a 64-bitI environment back then (besides Seymour didn't believe in virtual memory).8  C Nothing like walking in on a completely new computer (in my case it I started with Convex, then Alliant [I ignore SUN for other reasons], etc.)sJ and NOT have to learn significantly new command languages, editors, tools,/ and actually do work in a short period of time.w  J You are more than welcome to stay with VMS (or EXEC*1100, or VMS, or ...).+ Just stay out of the way of the rest of us.o9 Remember this is Usenet not vmsnet (nor Bitnet nor Vnet).i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:18:51 +0000 - From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com>c* Subject: Re: Upcoming *TPU* improvements ?/ Message-ID: <v5cdan3fb4ndea@corp.supernews.com>s   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  ! > In article , Roy Omond  writes:a > 3 > >Heck, it would be an interesting little exerciseD: > >to write a {Fortran, Pascal, PL/I, Ada, IMP} *compiler*5 > >in TPU :-)  The only thing really missing from TPU-9 > >is floating-point ;-)  IIRC, this is where Teco shinest% > >(as no doubt Larry K. will add :-)  > @ > Actually, TECO (an acronym) also lacks floating point support,A > but that scurrilous Carly Fiorina has declared that porting VMS # > to Itanium is higher priority !!!M  4 Scandalous.  No wonder VMS is being pronounced dead.  8 My observation was based on the very clever TECO program8 to calculate pi to a gazillion decimal places.  Now that4 I think of it, there was no floating point in there!   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 12:35:13 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302211235.4f4d1cec@posting.google.com>-  | Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KSP8KUUGJS9GVT85@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...< > > TPU ?  What do you find about TPU that needs improving ? > G > There is a lot of work to do improving TPU, which is why I still use  I > mainly EDT.  (Yes, there are some things I occasionally need which TPU VB > does better, but more which I often need which EDT does better.)   Agreed.E  H > IIRC, EDT is still supported but frozen.  Perhaps it is even no longerJ > supported.  In any case, it is clear that the code won't change much.  IH > think the manual is only available in text or perhaps PostScript form;G > how's that for "cast in stone"?  Thus, it is not a moving target.  It1E > would be nice if the EDT emulation in EVE (what annoys me more than G > non-VMS systems being called clusters is folks who use the EDT keypadlJ > only in the EDT emulation of EVE saying "I am familiar with EDT"!) would   LOL!  F > do everything EDT can do---EDTINI.EDT file, all three modes etc.  In+ > other words, make EVE a superset of EDT. d  B I'd be happy if they'd just give EDT the capability to use all theA lines on the screen instead of the 24 it currently does. And as aC8 bonus, the ability to work with files with long records.  E I'd also be thrilled if TPU search wouldn't insist that you type your,D search string in all lowercase letters in order for the search to beB case independent. (Well, there are a lot of other things I'd liked? changed about TPU, but I'm giving only a very short list here.)   H > How much work would this be?  Of course, only the beginning of a file K > should be read if that is all that is needed, the cursor speed should be  J > as fast as in EDT and not jump unnecessarily to the end of the line etc.  A I think it would be hard. I know that at least the SET NOTRUNCATEt6 would be near impossible based on some previous posts.   [...]a   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmanc   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:44:36 -0500d, From: "warren sander" <warren.sander@hp.com>( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?/ Message-ID: <Vcw5a.165$kc6.46@news.cpqcorp.net>L  + greater than 256 characters in a line......I  ; "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message=7 news:b096a4ee.0302211235.4f4d1cec@posting.google.com...kF > Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message7 news:<01KSP8KUUGJS9GVT85@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...-> > > > TPU ?  What do you find about TPU that needs improving ? > > H > > There is a lot of work to do improving TPU, which is why I still useJ > > mainly EDT.  (Yes, there are some things I occasionally need which TPUD > > does better, but more which I often need which EDT does better.) >'	 > Agreed.i >hJ > > IIRC, EDT is still supported but frozen.  Perhaps it is even no longerL > > supported.  In any case, it is clear that the code won't change much.  IJ > > think the manual is only available in text or perhaps PostScript form;I > > how's that for "cast in stone"?  Thus, it is not a moving target.  IteG > > would be nice if the EDT emulation in EVE (what annoys me more thanLI > > non-VMS systems being called clusters is folks who use the EDT keypad,L > > only in the EDT emulation of EVE saying "I am familiar with EDT"!) would >s > LOL! >eH > > do everything EDT can do---EDTINI.EDT file, all three modes etc.  In, > > other words, make EVE a superset of EDT. >rD > I'd be happy if they'd just give EDT the capability to use all theC > lines on the screen instead of the 24 it currently does. And as ap: > bonus, the ability to work with files with long records. >UG > I'd also be thrilled if TPU search wouldn't insist that you type yourtF > search string in all lowercase letters in order for the search to beD > case independent. (Well, there are a lot of other things I'd likedA > changed about TPU, but I'm giving only a very short list here.)N > I > > How much work would this be?  Of course, only the beginning of a filerL > > should be read if that is all that is needed, the cursor speed should beL > > as fast as in EDT and not jump unnecessarily to the end of the line etc. > C > I think it would be hard. I know that at least the SET NOTRUNCATE>8 > would be near impossible based on some previous posts. >t > [...]  >t > Disclaimer: JMHO > Alan E. Feldman-   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:31:45 -0800 (PST)r. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?? Message-ID: <20030221213145.4984.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com>A   > O > (I am not talking about that port to IA64, that is a no-value-added effort toc > VMS).s > O > I am talking about actual improvements to the OS and the utilities on it. AnyRK > plans to work on TPU ? And plans to work on MAIL ? Any plans on the TCPIPS
 > suite ?  > K > Is it now official that none of thsoe improvements would make it to VAX ?w  C VAX ? Forget VAX .... it was good and important ! Nowadays you must : migrate to Alpha or Itanium and recycle your VAX parts ...   Regardso   FC 2   =====a ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilh fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?2 Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:30:25 GMTf' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net>1( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?+ Message-ID: <3E569B38.2FBEE3FD@pacbell.net>_  E I often hear the "EDT is better" stuff, but I can't think of a singleJD thing that EDT can do that I can't do with my customized TPU editor.G Whereas, there are a host of things that I can't do with EDT that I can  do in TPU. 0 What am I missing ?h9 (EDT'ers please do not flame. This is an honest question)s   --     Have VMS, Will Travel8 Wire paladin, San Franciscoe   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)" __________________________________   Phillip Helbig wrote:_ > < > > TPU ?  What do you find about TPU that needs improving ? > F > There is a lot of work to do improving TPU, which is why I still useH > mainly EDT.  (Yes, there are some things I occasionally need which TPUB > does better, but more which I often need which EDT does better.) > H > IIRC, EDT is still supported but frozen.  Perhaps it is even no longerJ > supported.  In any case, it is clear that the code won't change much.  IH > think the manual is only available in text or perhaps PostScript form;G > how's that for "cast in stone"?  Thus, it is not a moving target.  It8E > would be nice if the EDT emulation in EVE (what annoys me more than G > non-VMS systems being called clusters is folks who use the EDT keypadiJ > only in the EDT emulation of EVE saying "I am familiar with EDT"!) wouldF > do everything EDT can do---EDTINI.EDT file, all three modes etc.  In* > other words, make EVE a superset of EDT. > G > How much work would this be?  Of course, only the beginning of a filenJ > should be read if that is all that is needed, the cursor speed should beJ > as fast as in EDT and not jump unnecessarily to the end of the line etc. > F > Just another question: what fraction of EVE users use the DECwindows > interface?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:47:06 -0800p$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>( Subject: RE: Upcoming VMS improvements ?0 Message-ID: <01C2D9AF.BC0BA860@sulfer.icius.com>  G I ran into one thing the other day. Line mode. AFAIK, there's no way to5F use TPU/EVE if you're on an unsupported terminal. Installing VMS on anG AS1000A before the DECWindows license and the networking were set up, IqA needed to edit a file so I had to fall back on long forgotten EDT<	 commands.c  ) I'm normally an EVE under DECWindows guy.e   Shane,   -----Original Message-----. From: Don Sykes [mailto:anonymous@pacbell.net]' Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:30 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?      E I often hear the "EDT is better" stuff, but I can't think of a single D thing that EDT can do that I can't do with my customized TPU editor.G Whereas, there are a host of things that I can't do with EDT that I can  do in TPU. l What am I missing ? 9 (EDT'ers please do not flame. This is an honest question)    -- y   Have VMS, Will Travel  Wire paladin, San Franciscoe   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)" __________________________________   Phillip Helbig wrote:a > < > > TPU ?  What do you find about TPU that needs improving ? > F > There is a lot of work to do improving TPU, which is why I still useH > mainly EDT.  (Yes, there are some things I occasionally need which TPUB > does better, but more which I often need which EDT does better.) > H > IIRC, EDT is still supported but frozen.  Perhaps it is even no longerJ > supported.  In any case, it is clear that the code won't change much.  IH > think the manual is only available in text or perhaps PostScript form;G > how's that for "cast in stone"?  Thus, it is not a moving target.  ItrE > would be nice if the EDT emulation in EVE (what annoys me more thanoG > non-VMS systems being called clusters is folks who use the EDT keypadoJ > only in the EDT emulation of EVE saying "I am familiar with EDT"!) wouldF > do everything EDT can do---EDTINI.EDT file, all three modes etc.  In* > other words, make EVE a superset of EDT. > G > How much work would this be?  Of course, only the beginning of a filebJ > should be read if that is all that is needed, the cursor speed should beJ > as fast as in EDT and not jump unnecessarily to the end of the line etc. > F > Just another question: what fraction of EVE users use the DECwindows > interface?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:32:16 GMTy' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net>c( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?+ Message-ID: <3E56B7C9.F8AB383D@pacbell.net>   B Now that you mention it, I too have been stuck with line-mode onlyE during the boot process. I haven't revisited TPU since I completed myeC custom version some years ago, so I don't know if there is/not some % method to create a line mode version.s   Shane Smith wrote: > I > I ran into one thing the other day. Line mode. AFAIK, there's no way touH > use TPU/EVE if you're on an unsupported terminal. Installing VMS on anI > AS1000A before the DECWindows license and the networking were set up, IlC > needed to edit a file so I had to fall back on long forgotten EDTe > commands.n > + > I'm normally an EVE under DECWindows guy.t >  > Shanei >  > -----Original Message-----0 > From: Don Sykes [mailto:anonymous@pacbell.net]) > Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:30 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComO* > Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? > G > I often hear the "EDT is better" stuff, but I can't think of a single F > thing that EDT can do that I can't do with my customized TPU editor.I > Whereas, there are a host of things that I can't do with EDT that I cans > do in TPU. > What am I missing ?.; > (EDT'ers please do not flame. This is an honest question)k >  > -- >  > Have VMS, Will Travelw > Wire paladin, San Francisco  >  > (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)$ > __________________________________ >  > Phillip Helbig wrote:t > >a> > > > TPU ?  What do you find about TPU that needs improving ? > >nH > > There is a lot of work to do improving TPU, which is why I still useJ > > mainly EDT.  (Yes, there are some things I occasionally need which TPUD > > does better, but more which I often need which EDT does better.) > > J > > IIRC, EDT is still supported but frozen.  Perhaps it is even no longerL > > supported.  In any case, it is clear that the code won't change much.  IJ > > think the manual is only available in text or perhaps PostScript form;I > > how's that for "cast in stone"?  Thus, it is not a moving target.  It G > > would be nice if the EDT emulation in EVE (what annoys me more thanmI > > non-VMS systems being called clusters is folks who use the EDT keypadoL > > only in the EDT emulation of EVE saying "I am familiar with EDT"!) wouldH > > do everything EDT can do---EDTINI.EDT file, all three modes etc.  In, > > other words, make EVE a superset of EDT. > >oI > > How much work would this be?  Of course, only the beginning of a fileeL > > should be read if that is all that is needed, the cursor speed should beL > > as fast as in EDT and not jump unnecessarily to the end of the line etc. > >1H > > Just another question: what fraction of EVE users use the DECwindows > > interface?   -- g   Have VMS, Will Travel4 Wire paladin, San Francisco1   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:13:28 GMTnL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?6 Message-ID: <00A1BCC6.85E7BD4E@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  b In article <3E55AFE2.4144551C@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:; >Has Digital/compaq/HP announced any plans to improve VMS ?h >"T >(I am not talking about that port to IA64, that is a no-value-added effort to VMS). >[N >I am talking about actual improvements to the OS and the utilities on it. AnyJ >plans to work on TPU ? And plans to work on MAIL ? Any plans on the TCPIP	 >suite ? >  L At the Nashua event there was a long session on planned improvements to the  TCPIP suite.   >:J >Is it now official that none of thsoe improvements would make it to VAX ?   Don't know.k   -- AlanS    O ===============================================================================e0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056aM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025aO ===============================================================================e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:19:36 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?/ Message-ID: <3E56B377.FF7E7759@vl.videotron.ca>t   Don Sykes wrote: > G > I often hear the "EDT is better" stuff, but I can't think of a singleiF > thing that EDT can do that I can't do with my customized TPU editor.I > Whereas, there are a host of things that I can't do with EDT that I cann > do in TPU.  L I am a TPU guy. However, EDT does have its uses. Editing very large files isL fasted with EDT since the whole file need not beread into memory (eg: copied  from the file to the page file).  G Also, replacing tab characters is infinitely faster on EDT than on TPU.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:26:40 -0500s* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?2 Message-ID: <gU6dnbAxYOxKTMujXTWcpg@metrocast.net>  . "Nigel Barker" <nigel@hp.com> wrote in message2 news:necc5vohsnonddu9esiph5hcb5f49hd294@4ax.com.... > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 00:49:39 -0400, JF Mezei! <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>n > wrote: > = > >Has Digital/compaq/HP announced any plans to improve VMS ?c >t8 > The OpenVMS Rolling Roadmaps presentation available atD > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps.htm1 > details improvements planned for years to come.n  K Well, for two years to come, at any rate.  About then, the roadmap seems toeI hit a dead end (at least w.r.t. any substantive information), which might G strike some as a bit ominous.  And the improvements planned during thataH two-year period, while certainly worthwhile, are not what one might term
 'aggressive'.1   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:32:26 -0500e* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?2 Message-ID: <G8ednVIlc4atTsujXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>  L "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote in message& news:3e562c8e_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com... >s? > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message + > news:3E55AFE2.4144551C@vl.videotron.ca...    ...n   > > Any plans to work on TPU ? >eL > I doubt enhancements to TPU will get higher priority than, say, a new file	 > system.-  C And since plans for a new file system seem to have pretty much beenlJ languishing for over three years now, with no obvious progress (not even aL mention on the roadmap through early 2005), well, draw your own conclusions.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 19:57:46 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?3 Message-ID: <+Nv3YpO5JF8p@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  _ In article <G8ednVIlc4atTsujXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:p > N > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote in message( > news:3e562c8e_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com... >>@ >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message, >> news:3E55AFE2.4144551C@vl.videotron.ca... >  > ...r >  >> > Any plans to work on TPU ?m >>M >> I doubt enhancements to TPU will get higher priority than, say, a new file 
 >> system. > E > And since plans for a new file system seem to have pretty much beenyL > languishing for over three years now, with no obvious progress (not even aN > mention on the roadmap through early 2005), well, draw your own conclusions. >     	A few weeks ago Fred said this:  I http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3e3ff9c2%241_2%40hpb10302.boi.hp.com.  H "We are currently limited to 32-bit LBN's.  We are evaluating a new fileL system to overcome the size and performance limitations of ODS2/5.  When the6 current stuff was designed, the RP06 was cuting edge."   ---i  = 	Now evaluation to me isn't the same as developing.  What onei> 	may infer (correctly or incorrectly) is that they are banging 	around design.e   				Robh   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:26:22 -0500i* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?2 Message-ID: <8vOcnfV0x5eYl8qjXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:+Nv3YpO5JF8p@eisner.encompasserve.org...M@ > In article <G8ednVIlc4atTsujXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > > H > > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote in messagee* > > news:3e562c8e_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com... > >>B > >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message. > >> news:3E55AFE2.4144551C@vl.videotron.ca... > >r > > ...t > >c! > >> > Any plans to work on TPU ?  > >>J > >> I doubt enhancements to TPU will get higher priority than, say, a new file > >> system. > >rG > > And since plans for a new file system seem to have pretty much been L > > languishing for over three years now, with no obvious progress (not even a C > > mention on the roadmap through early 2005), well, draw your ownn conclusions. > >r >c! > A few weeks ago Fred said this:n >lK > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3e3ff9c2%241_2%40hpb10302.boi.hp.comh >iJ > "We are currently limited to 32-bit LBN's.  We are evaluating a new fileJ > system to overcome the size and performance limitations of ODS2/5.  When the 8 > current stuff was designed, the RP06 was cuting edge."  J Indeed he did.  And that statement was remarkably similar to what was saidC to me a bit over 3 years ago when I visited ZK to see if I would be.I interested in the new file system development that was being talked about4
 back then.   >  > ---m >o> > Now evaluation to me isn't the same as developing.  What one? > may infer (correctly or incorrectly) is that they are bangingi > around design.  G What they were doing 3 years ago was considering recycling the ScotlandfK group's combined VMS/NT cluster file system design:  very much a shoestringoL effort to do the minimum amount of work required to remove such restrictions4 (which is why I wasn't interested in participating).  L It really would be a shame (not to mention so surprising that I'm not reallyG worried about the possibility) if they've actually gotten funding to do:K something significant, since the attraction of working at cHumPaq has wanedn" rather drastically in the interim.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 21:53:37 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302212153.35567360@posting.google.com>.  Z Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<3E569B38.2FBEE3FD@pacbell.net>...  G > I often hear the "EDT is better" stuff, but I can't think of a singleoF > thing that EDT can do that I can't do with my customized TPU editor.  E I don't know what you can do with your customized TPU editor. I don'teE have that. But I can pretty much be sure you don't have an equivalenta: for the EDT line mode command, SET NOTRUNCATE (see below).  I > Whereas, there are a host of things that I can't do with EDT that I cano
 > do in TPU. u  E True. But there are things you have to put with in TPU that you don't4 in EDT. See below.   > What am I missing ?K; > (EDT'ers please do not flame. This is an honest question)4  A [This is not intended as a flame, but I have very strong feelingsh? about this. Please don't misinterpret this as flamage. Thanks.]   B OK, yes, there are advantages to EVE/TPU. When I need box editing,C wildcard searches, long lines, etc., I use EVE/TPU. But most of theo time I use EDT.   C One of these days I am going to make a list of EDT vs EVE features.i But for right now, here goes:n  E Well, SET NOTRUNCATE can't be done with TPU. Based on previous posts,IF I remember being told that to implement its equivalent using TPU wouldA be very difficult and/or very slow or awkward in some way. Please < don't mention SET WRAP. It is *not* the same thing at all!!!  E Simple things are easier in EDT -- especially when trying to script aoA command. For example, in EDT, to substitute, you press control/z,4       S/OLDSTRING/NEWSTRING/ WHr  F and press Return. You can put that in an .EDT file verbatim and run it? and it works. You can't do that with EVE. You have to learn yets another language.l  @ Simple things take less typing. I want to go to line 34. In EDT,E control/z, 34, Return, I'm there! EVE: Do, LINE 34, Return. Move downNE 25 lines, *+25, I'm there! EVE: I don't even know. OK I could use the  Repeat key.   2 Another simple thing that is much easier with EDT:  4 In EDT I can easily write out the paste buffer with   . control/Z                   ! Enter line mode.? *WRITE FILE.TYP =PASTE      ! Write the PASTE buffer to a file.u/ *C                          ! Get back to work.d  D In EVE I have to do the following: Press Do, Command: SHOW SYS, moveE the cursor up to the line that says "Insert Here", press enter, pressnF Do again, Command: WRITE FILE.TYP, press Do *yet* again, Command: showC buff, move the cursor to the main buffer, press Return. And writinguB the paste buffer to a file is something I actually do quite often.  D Finally I stumbled upon a cool EVE INIT file that was posted in thisE newsgroup that contains a key defined to write the select region to arA file. Cool, but someone had to write it. And this function alwayst@ writes to TMP.TMP. With EDT I choose the name right in the WRITE2 command. This is a simple common basic function!!!  E Yeah, it takes a little more memorizing here to use EDT, but not much A at all, and I can handle it (you have to memorize =PASTE, not toooC tough!). With EVE it's more like using Windows, of which I am not aiF fan. And for other equivalents you actually have to learn and memorizeA more because you have to write and debug programs. (OK, with long A buffer names I like being able to move the cursor to the name ande7 press return, but not for the paste buffer, see above.)r  E You can't do case-independent searches with uppercase search strings.aA I like my DCL in uppercase and comments in mixed case. So you caneF imagine what it's like when I type in SEARCH_STRING, press Return, andD get nothing for a string that I know is in the file. No sir, I don't< like it. ---So work in lowercase.--- I don't want to work in
 lowercase!  E Much smoother scrolling and cursor movement with EDT. Also, opening a'E new file takes about three seconds with spasmodic blinking and flying B around of the cursor, messages flashing and inverting too fast tooC read, and then finally the status bar (It's because of my init fileoB which only 11 lines long. Now I know someone once posted somethingB like "Well, it takes time for EVE/TPU to interpret INIT commands."B We're talking 11 lines! I could almost read them that fast myself!> (OK, I exaggerate.) My EDT script is 262 lines (some lines are0 comments) and it runs almost instantaneously!!!)  C With EDT, the cursor stays on the same row with repeated presses offE the Find Next key. In EVE it sometimes goes top, bottom, top, bottom,tC .... Sometimes it bounces around in other ways. I hate that. Pick ah row and go with it!   D You can go to, and stay in, line mode. You can't do that with EVE. IA don't see the advantage of having to hit the Do key over and over  again.  D Nokeypad mode: Cool for writing editable customized startup scripts.@ You can display any individual key definition and it displays inF nokeypad commands. I don't know how to do that in EVE. How do you lookB at your key definitions in EVE? Well, I need to research the threeD methods, /init, /command and the /section variations. I suppose withD at least the /init version you can do it. But not if you define yourC keys interactively and save them in a section file(!), I think. How E would you do that short of writing down your keystrokes on a piece oflE paper *as you define them* for any keys you define interactively withe( "LEARN" and then save in a section file?  C I can edit the first few lines of a huge file much faster and don'toE have to worry about running out of virtual memory in the process. Andf; I don't have to consume all that memory in the first place!o  C EDT has the ALL range-specifier. You can do something like TYPE ALLnD 'HELLO' and it displays all lines that contain the word "HELLO". You can also do stuff like  $     S/STRING1/STRING2/ ALL 'STRING3'  F which will change string1 to string2 in all lines containing string3.   E There are other cool range-specifiers that let you specify a range ofsD lines by number, all lines before (or after) the cursor, first line, end, and more.  F With EDT you can edit a file that has fixed-width records and when youB exit, it saves it as a fixed-width-records file. You can't do thatC with EVE, and probably not even with a TPU program (well, maybe youl could; I don't know).l  A And if you can do any of these things in TPU you probably have toeB write a program to do it. I have work to do. I don't want to spendB hours writing code that does simple things that EDT can do without having to write code.i  A In EDT you can edit your journal files. This is great for undoingwB mistakes. If you use keyboard journaling (which, BTW, is *not* the3 default in EVE/TPU), you can do it but it's harder.p  E In EDT you can use ^U to abort almost any command that you are in thecD process of typing and you get a quick, clean abort. Not so with EVE.  B EVE/TPU for normal use is a little like using a rocket ship to get across the street.   OK, that's enough for now.     > Have VMS, Will Travel    Cool.t   > Wire paladin, San Franciscos   Huh?  a > (paladinATalphaseDOTcom) [...]    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:04:58 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>( Subject: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?/ Message-ID: <3E567857.CCA81DC9@vl.videotron.ca>2   Roy Omond wrote:: > TPU ?  What do you find about TPU that needs improving ?  K More sophisticated CALL_USER that lets you call more than just one routine.a  9 Support for floating point variables (more on that later)   J Support to access both logical names and dcl symbols from TPU programming.  ? Access to records in indexed files. (read by key, write by key)n  M Re: floating point: One of the most valuable features on my trusted old PSIONOL PDA is the ability to write a mathematical formula, press PSION-E (evaluate)M and voila, inside the world processor, the answer is appended to the formula.l  5 It would be very neat to be able to do that with TPU.f  M Now, if TPU could also be given some forms capabilities, it would provide forvF very easy applications to be setup, similar to what ALL-IN-1 provided.  L TPU has the scripting *AND* user interface (both character cell and X). Perl only has the scripting.l   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 17:28:40 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)) Subject: VMSclusters vs. others' clustersm= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302211728.514ae037@posting.google.com>r   Hello fellow VMS-ers,e  C Occasionally the topic of clusters comes up at work and I'd like toeC say what makes VMSclusters so much better than others'. I know that B VMSclusters go back to the 80's and that VMSclusters are the best.  B But I know very little about what others' clusters really do. I'veD heard that Google has a cluster of thousands of Linux boxes. Is that% true? How would VMS make that better?n  A So what are the particular features of VMSclusters that sets themfC apart from the rest, esp. Unix and Windows systems? If readers giveeF good answers here I'll be well equipped to tell my coworkers about it.   Thanks.o   Alan E. Feldmang   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:47:17 -060001 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>:$ Subject: Re: Volume set across RAID5' Message-ID: <3E56F2C5.60DC9C35@fsi.net>g   "henry g." wrote:s >  > Thanks David.c > F > This was a little complex, most of the engineers I spoke with didn'tC > know the answer for certain... we all speculated but yours is theh7 > first with actual hands-on experience in this matter.m >  > Thanks again!y  	 Any time.   > ...but that said, consider: HBVS *IS* RAID, RAID-1 to be exactH (shadowing/mirroring). Shadow-sets can be bound into volume-sets. Should@ anything happen to a shadow-set (like lose all the members), the volume-set goes *PIFT*.r  B That's why I prefer using mirrored stripe-sets that are mounted asG single-volume disk devices. Stripe for capacity, mirror for redundancy.oA Watch your FAILEDSET and SPARESET, and set your mirror-set membert" replacement policy as appropriate.   -- b David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Feb 2003 17:21:21 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)C Subject: What makes the VMS port to Itanium/IPF/whatever difficult?i= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0302211721.43429f08@posting.google.com>t   Hello fellow VMS-ers,a  C A Unix Admin co-worker asked me what the big deal was about portingnE VMS to Itanium. He says that NetBSD has been ported to numerous chipseF and that it's no big deal. I told him that I didn't really know. WouldE any of the chip experts reading this care to comment? What is it that  makes this port difficult?  C (NOTE: I'm not saying that it wasn't a great accomplishment to haveeF VMS boot on IPF. I'm just asking what it is that makes it difficult to do.)   Thanks.o   Alan E. FeldmanB   ------------------------------   Date: 21 FEB 2003 18:36:42 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)L Subject: Re: [TCPware V5.6-2 = BIND 8.1.2]  How to get rid of error messages6 Message-ID: <21FEB03.18364233@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  8 -> From: Peter LANGSTOEGER [mailto:peter@langstoeger.at], -> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:10 PM -> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComJ -> Subject: [TCPware V5.6-2 = BIND 8.1.2] How to get rid of error messages -> (J -> I've a TCPware BIND server with dynamic updates allowed (to allow a NT5" -> to register its SRV RR itself). ->  ' -> But it doesn't work (as expected ;-)n -> s? -> NT does register some records but not all, because it can't.b1 -> And so periodically there are a lot of OPCOMs.p  F Bind 8.1.2 is the minimum version that SHOULD support srv records (RFCE 2050). TCPIP V5.1 supplies BIND 8.1.2 which we have used to support abA static Active Directory domain. I'd suggest disabling the dynamic)? updates and add static srv records manually (which works fine)..   --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madisons2 --           karcher.nomorespam@waisman.wisc.edu     ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:01:09 GMTP. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)L Subject: Re: [TCPware V5.6-2 = BIND 8.1.2]  How to get rid of error messages3 Message-ID: <95z5a.35710$Rb4.474014@news.chello.at>   X In article <3E563871.7060109@process.com>, Michael Corbett <corbett@process.com> writes: >Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:oJ >> I've a TCPware BIND server with dynamic updates allowed (to allow a NT5" >> to register its SRV RR itself). >> n' >> But it doesn't work (as expected ;-)  >> p? >> NT does register some records but not all, because it can't.s1 >> And so periodically there are a lot of OPCOMs.E	 >>[snip] nJ >> Why is NT5 using DDNS update packets which TCPware doesn't understand ? >f >  Can't answer that.y >lB >> Is there a way to trace them better/at-all (except a sniffer) ? >wA >You could use TCPDUMP to capture the updates and examine them toh >see why they're bad.t  F If I would know what is correct, then I could also find what is wrong.( I don't know how M$ SRV RR looks like...  N I still wonder why its name is TCPDUMP when you can sniff UDP/IP/ICMP also ;-)  O >> Is it TCPware's or M$'s fault ? Will a BIND 9 work ? (TCPIP V5.3 has BIND 9)'  I Sorry, I forgot to also tell, that TCPIP V5.3 has BIND 9 only on Alpha...   2 >Can't tell until you know what is in the updates.  J Ok, next time (sorry, not now) I collect some for further investigation...  4 >> But to top it, NT5 is destroying the domain also: >> c/ >> A restart (not reload) of the primary gives: 	 >>[snip] t6 >> btw: a reload doesn't show this problems (but why):5 >> named: Forwarding source address is [0.0.0.0].1229 " >> named: Ready to answer queries. >> aF >> It seems to only work, when you run the NT5 as primary obviously... >dA >I think the problem is caused by the underscores.  You can use -d >c >check-names ignore; >-F >on the zone to stop the nameserver from rejecting the zone because of >these errors.  J Shame on me. I did know this some years ago. (because I read it, set it upG and obviously forget it shortly thereafter - in my previous company)...   
 btw; I've now   	 options {@A 	check-names master warn;	//instead of fail, becomes ignore latert 	check-names response ignore;e< 	check-names slave warn;		//will become ignore sometimes too 	directory "DNS:";   -- e Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:39:19 GMTT. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)L Subject: RE: [TCPware V5.6-2 = BIND 8.1.2]  How to get rid of error messages3 Message-ID: <bxA5a.36533$Rb4.483182@news.chello.at>r  ` In article <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDKENICMAA.dallen@nist.gov>, "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> writes:? >> NT does register some records but not all, because it can't.a1 >> And so periodically there are a lot of OPCOMs.e >>  J >> named: error processing update packet id 55297 from [192.168.1.16].2796 >[snip]tQ >The SRV records are kinda non-standard for one. They're actually specified in anlP >RFC that wasn't implemented by many DNS servers. Without knowing more specifics: >about the RR data being rejected it's hard for me to say.  J They are the usual RRs a booting NT5 server will want to DDNS register ;-)    >[snip]tE >	I've never seen this pproblem myself BUT I think the problem is thetG >	underscore in the owner name.  There's been a lot of discussion aboutlF >	the use of underscores in DNS names. It's technically not allowed byH >	the RFC's yet has been widely used over time. I THINK there's a config? >	option in more recent versions of BIND to allow underscores. t  J "widely used over time" is a little bit harsh, as I saw only M$ using themK (for the Active Directory and for M$ nodenames because managers are allowedn2 to enter them with underscores in the dialog box).   -Peter  J PS: MOZILLA doesn't even allow a underscore in the name of the SMTP serverJ (if it is a M$ exchange server with SMTP and an underscore in the name) soI you end up using IP Adresses or a hardcoded entry in the node hosts file.u -- t Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERc% Network and OpenVMS system specialist- E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:46:38 GMTD. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)L Subject: Re: [TCPware V5.6-2 = BIND 8.1.2]  How to get rid of error messages3 Message-ID: <2EA5a.36583$Rb4.483182@news.chello.at>a  m In article <21FEB03.18364233@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>, karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) writes:A@ >-> NT does register some records but not all, because it can't.2 >-> And so periodically there are a lot of OPCOMs. >AG >Bind 8.1.2 is the minimum version that SHOULD support srv records (RFCtF >2050). TCPIP V5.1 supplies BIND 8.1.2 which we have used to support aB >static Active Directory domain. I'd suggest disabling the dynamic@ >updates and add static srv records manually (which works fine).  = Seems a good advice for static M$ environments (like mine ;-)_? As the M$ server logs a lot of DNS errors (can't update record),@ even with a DDNS server, it seems that a change from DDNS to DNS! can't make the situation worse...    -- 3 Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERy% Network and OpenVMS system specialistR E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:21:21 +0100t2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)L Subject: Re: [TCPware V5.6-2 = BIND 8.1.2]  How to get rid of error messages; Message-ID: <3e567c31.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>   " Dan Allen (dallen@nist.gov) wrote:1 > Peter LANGSTOEGER <peter@langstoeger.at> wrote:p5 > > But to top it, NT5 is destroying the domain also:_ > > 0 > > A restart (not reload) of the primary gives: > > 4 > > named: starting.  named 8.1.2 for TCPware V5.6-2 > > named:  Process SoftwareD > > named: master zone "0.0.127.in-addr.arpa" (IN) loaded (serial 1)O > > named: master zone "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa" (IN) loaded (serial 2003012601)TT > > named: owner name "gc._msdcs.langstoeger.at" IN (primary) is invalid - rejecting1 > > named: LANGSTOEGER_AT.DB:34: owner name error 3 > > named: LANGSTOEGER_AT.DB:34: Database error (A) W > > named: master zone "langstoeger.at" (IN) rejected due to errors (serial 2003021954)u ... F > 	I've never seen this pproblem myself BUT I think the problem is theH > 	underscore in the owner name.  There's been a lot of discussion aboutG > 	the use of underscores in DNS names. It's technically not allowed byII > 	the RFC's yet has been widely used over time. I THINK there's a confige@ > 	option in more recent versions of BIND to allow underscores.   . It's a BIND 8 feature. In the NAMED.CONF file:  	 options {e" 	check-names <check-what> <level>; };   wherel(   check-what = master | slave | response   level = fail | warn | ignore   cu,n   Martin -- hG So long, and thanks        | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer 4 for all the books...       | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deK In Memoriam Douglas Adams  |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/t;             1952-2001      | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de?   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.103 ************************