0 INFO-VAX	Tue, 07 Jan 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 13      Contents:' Re: 2002 HPOpenVMS Study: question E12a ' Re: 2002 HPOpenVMS Study: question E12a L Re: Anonymous and MicroVMS vs VMS (was: Re: Marvel talks at The Inquirer...)L Re: Anonymous and MicroVMS vs VMS (was: Re: Marvel talks at The Inquirer...)P Re: Anonymous and MicroVMS vs VMS (was: Re: Marvel talks at The Inquirer...) Inq' Re: Callable mail oddity (999 char max)  Re: DEC Graphics Tablet  Re: DEC Graphics Tablet 4 Re: Demise of VMS (and most other operating systems)' Re: F$GETDVI ("AVL") in an IF statement ! Re: Finding info on Alpha Systems ! Re: Finding info on Alpha Systems  Re: FTP  Re: FTP 6 Re: HP: VMS is a mature product, was: Re: VMS in VegasD Re: I just wanted to share a note I sen	t to the group this mornin	gB Re: I just wanted to share a note I sent to the group this morningB Re: I just wanted to share a note I sent to the group this morning/ Inquirer articles on HP treatment of Marvel/EV7 3 Re: Inquirer articles on HP treatment of Marvel/EV7 3 Re: Inquirer articles on HP treatment of Marvel/EV7 3 Re: Inquirer articles on HP treatment of Marvel/EV7 3 Re: Inquirer articles on HP treatment of Marvel/EV7 E Re: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's E Re: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's E RE: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's P Re: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's   going onP RE: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's   going onP RE: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's   going onP Re: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's   going onP Re: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's going on wP Re: JF and backporting features (was: Re: Machine checks not always hardware faiP Re: JF and backporting features (was: Re: Machine checks not always hardware fai# Logical name security: sanity check ' RE: Logical name security: sanity check ' Re: Logical name security: sanity check G Re: Machine checks not always hardware failures, was: Re: Machine Check # Re: Marvel talks at The Inquirer... # Re: Marvel talks at The Inquirer...  Re: OpenVMS 7.2 on a Multia 2 Re: SAN recommendations mixing VMS, Solaris, Linux Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth  Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth  Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth  Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth  Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth  Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth @ Re: VERY ON-TOPIC:  quoted-printable shit and Mickey$chlock mail@ Re: VERY ON-TOPIC:  quoted-printable shit and Mickey$chlock mail@ Re: VERY ON-TOPIC:  quoted-printable shit and Mickey$chlock mail% Re: VMS in Vegas (Was [OT] Lotteries) % Re: VMS in Vegas (Was [OT] Lotteries) % Re: VMS in Vegas (Was [OT] Lotteries) % RE: VMS in Vegas (Was [OT] Lotteries) 0 Re: VMS731_ACRTL-V0100 Release notes [complaint] Re: Working with Locks+ Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year) + Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year) + Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year) + Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year) F [OT} email spamfighting (was: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 22:39:36 +0100 4 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>0 Subject: Re: 2002 HPOpenVMS Study: question E12a& Message-ID: <3E19F798.4030707@Free.fr>   Paul Sture a crit: _ > In article <3E14B3D4.9080602@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> writes:  >  >>Paul Sture a crit:  >>` >>>In article <3E13FD55.4070700@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> writes: >>>  >>>  >>>>David J. Dachtera a crit: >>>> >>>>< >>>>>I thought it was the goose that lays the golden eggs... >>>>P >>>>Well, in France, it's a hen actually. Isn't the chicken its descendance? :-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>My 2003 two euros. >>>>> 3 >>>>>Equiv. (rough) $2.00US? Such is inflation, no?  >>>>/ >>>>r u jokin? as of today, 1 US$ is 0.99 euro.  >>>> >>> M >>>Yes he is joking.  He's contrasting your "two euros" with the common usage 0 >>>"my 2 cents". That's inflation, n'est-ce pas? >>
 >>Il est ! >>:-)  >> >>Bonne anne, Paul. >> > I > Bonne annee aussi (7 bit gateway here - doesn't do accented characters)  >    $ set term/fallback  :-)    D. Lyon   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:08:40 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 0 Subject: Re: 2002 HPOpenVMS Study: question E12a' Message-ID: <3E1A2898.6AEE47C8@fsi.net>    Didier Morandi wrote:  >  > Paul Sture a crit: a > > In article <3E14B3D4.9080602@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> writes:  > >  > >>Paul Sture a crit:  > >>b > >>>In article <3E13FD55.4070700@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> writes: > >>>  > >>>   > >>>>David J. Dachtera a crit: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>I thought it was the goose that lays the golden eggs... > >>>>R > >>>>Well, in France, it's a hen actually. Isn't the chicken its descendance? :-) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>My 2003 two euros. > >>>>> 5 > >>>>>Equiv. (rough) $2.00US? Such is inflation, no?  > >>>>1 > >>>>r u jokin? as of today, 1 US$ is 0.99 euro.  > >>>> > >>> O > >>>Yes he is joking.  He's contrasting your "two euros" with the common usage 2 > >>>"my 2 cents". That's inflation, n'est-ce pas? > >> > >>Il est ! > >>:-)  > >> > >>Bonne anne, Paul. > >> > > K > > Bonne annee aussi (7 bit gateway here - doesn't do accented characters)  > >  >  > $ set term/fallback  > :-)   3 Well, that's two command elements that don't exist:    $ SET TERM/SPRINGFORWARD   $ PRINT/TIFY  F I always get confused, anyway. To me, "spring back" and "fall forward" seem more natural.   ;-)    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2003 02:40:44 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) U Subject: Re: Anonymous and MicroVMS vs VMS (was: Re: Marvel talks at The Inquirer...) * Message-ID: <avdenc$8ag$1@web1.cup.hp.com>   In article <00A1991C.B14953C6@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:      An anonymous user posted:   A :>That's why they sold uVMS on it initially instead of the 'full' E :>version of VMS. Many companies didn't know how easy or difficult it E :>would be to 'port' from VMS 3.x or 4.x on a 780 or 750 to uVMS on a H :>MVII, and DEC wan't about to help them do it, so many companies stayed :>locked into 750/780 systems.  I   In response to an anonymous user's posting, many folks still don't know I   how easy or how difficult an upgrade is.  There are folks that are even 7   now (today) running VAX-11/750 systems in production.   M :It certainly wasn't my impression at the time that uVMS was anything but VMS I :(possibly pre-tailored to be installable from only 26 floppies) with the J :possible addition of DECwindows support.  I'm pretty sure I saw marketingL :literature that said applications should just run without even a recompile.  L   In response to an anonymous user posting and its reply, DIGITAL (back whenK   I was a customer) actively sought out the company I then worked for, and  K   wanted the company to host and to sell the company's software packages on K   MicroVAX systems.  Biggest problem was that the VAX-11/725 series and its J   follow-on MicroVAX I series were both too slow for the software packagesI   in question, and the MicroVAX II was comparatively late in its arrival. I   Once the MicroVAX II finally arrived, we actively started reselling the +   software on the MicroVMS configurations.    H   Though the anonymous user posting could be read as infering otherwise,F   the KA630 series processor and the MicroVAX II and the VAXstation IIH   series boxes were popular, successful, profitable, and very economical-   boxes.  Both for DIGITAL and for customers.   F   In response to an anonymous user posting and its reply, it was very H   clear at the time that MicroVMS was a repackaged VMS distribution, andL   specifically that it was repackaged to fit onto and ship on and to installG   from the forty-some RX50 disks TK50 that were needed for the complete G   MicroVMS installation.  TK50 was, for its time and for anyone used to F   needing five or six boxes of RX50 floppies, an amazing and wonderfulH   enhancement.  But I digress.  The early RD-series disks were way-smallD   -- stuffing MicroVMS onto an RD51 or RD52 disk was an effort, and F   loading drivers for MASSBUS devices did not help it fit onto these. E   (The rotating knob on the side of the RD51 was memorable; you could D   watch the drive seek.  Slowly.)  Later in the VAX/VMS V4.* series,E   installation of the full VMS kits was quite explicitly required for ,   certain of the NI cluster configurations.   G   Folks and even potentially the the anonymous user might be interested J   in this (very old but relevent) reply, a reply that is readily available   on Google:   	--   3  "From: info-vax@ucbvax.ARPA (info-vax@ucbvax.ARPA) $  Subject: MicroVMS V1.0 vs VMS V4.0   Newsgroups: fa.info-vax  Date: 1985-02-20 05:33:41 PST      3 From: lionel%eiffel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)   D MicroVMS V1.0 is a repackaged version of VAX/VMS X2M9, which was theD second field test version of VMS V4.0.  MicroVMS V4.0 (there were noK V2 nor V3) is exactly VAX/VMS V4.0, repackaged.  By repackaging I mean that D some files that are not relevant to MicroVAXen (for example, MASSBUSK drivers) are not present, some command files have been added or modified to F make it easier to use and the help is reorganized somewhat.  BasicallyJ what you give up is full VMS' ability to take a VMS pack and run it on anyH VAX processor, in exchange for a much smaller and cheaper system.  Also,D you buy various parts of the system separately, so if you don't need DECnet, you need not buy it.  6 Yes, patches for VMS V4.0 will work on MicroVMS V4.0."        N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 03:58:59 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> U Subject: Re: Anonymous and MicroVMS vs VMS (was: Re: Marvel talks at The Inquirer...) K Message-ID: <7gsS9.221075$F2h1.196361@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   0 "Hoff Hoffman" <hoff@hp.nospam> wrote in message$ news:avdenc$8ag$1@web1.cup.hp.com... >  > B >   In response to an anonymous user posting and its reply, it was veryF >   clear at the time that MicroVMS was a repackaged VMS distribution, and F >   specifically that it was repackaged to fit onto and ship on and to install @ >   from the forty-some RX50 disks TK50 that were needed for the completeF >   MicroVMS installation.  TK50 was, for its time and for anyone used to> >   needing five or six boxes of RX50 floppies, an amazing and	 wonderful @ >   enhancement.  But I digress.  The early RD-series disks were	 way-small E >   -- stuffing MicroVMS onto an RD51 or RD52 disk was an effort, and @ >   loading drivers for MASSBUS devices did not help it fit onto these.A >   (The rotating knob on the side of the RD51 was memorable; you  could F >   watch the drive seek.  Slowly.)  Later in the VAX/VMS V4.* series,C >   installation of the full VMS kits was quite explicitly required  for - >   certain of the NI cluster configurations.  > > >   Folks and even potentially the the anonymous user might be
 interestedB >   in this (very old but relevent) reply, a reply that is readily	 available  >   on Google: >  > -- > 5 >  "From: info-vax@ucbvax.ARPA (info-vax@ucbvax.ARPA) % >  Subject: MicroVMS V1.0 vs VMS V4.0  >  Newsgroups: fa.info-vax  >  Date: 1985-02-20 05:33:41 PST >  > 5 > From: lionel%eiffel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Steve Lionel)  > F > MicroVMS V1.0 is a repackaged version of VAX/VMS X2M9, which was theF > second field test version of VMS V4.0.  MicroVMS V4.0 (there were noC > V2 nor V3) is exactly VAX/VMS V4.0, repackaged.  By repackaging I 	 mean that F > some files that are not relevant to MicroVAXen (for example, MASSBUSA > drivers) are not present, some command files have been added or  modified to = > make it easier to use and the help is reorganized somewhat. 	 Basically E > what you give up is full VMS' ability to take a VMS pack and run it  on anyC > VAX processor, in exchange for a much smaller and cheaper system.  Also, F > you buy various parts of the system separately, so if you don't need > DECnet, you need not buy it. > 8 > Yes, patches for VMS V4.0 will work on MicroVMS V4.0." >      Hoff,   E Yes indeed, MVII was a very successful product for Digital, and would D have probably enjoyed even wider success had Digital, or at least myF series of sales critters, sales managers, and regional technical guys,C been able to communicate what you posted above. I clearly recall us F being told by Digital at the time that we couldn't get there from hereE in migrating from a 750 to a MVII for our use. Perhaps it was because A we needed 1G of disk at the time, and I guess RA81's or other big E drives wouldn't work with a MVII then, and perhaps not the TU80/81(?) @ either (it's been so long I've forgotten what we used back then.  F None the less, whether uVMS was fully 'capable' or not, DG, HP, PerkinF Elmer, and Honeywell at the time all used the 'limitations' of uVMS toA sell aggressively against it. I was at the receiving end of those $ pitches at the time, as were others.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:42:41 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>Y Subject: Re: Anonymous and MicroVMS vs VMS (was: Re: Marvel talks at The Inquirer...) Inq / Message-ID: <3E1A4CAE.F4C3B191@vl.videotron.ca>    John Smith wrote: G > in migrating from a 750 to a MVII for our use. Perhaps it was because C > we needed 1G of disk at the time, and I guess RA81's or other big G > drives wouldn't work with a MVII then, and perhaps not the TU80/81(?) B > either (it's been so long I've forgotten what we used back then.  M The Big cabinet for the Microvax II allows RA18 and RA82 drives and the KDA50 ' controller, at least as of Microvms 4.6   H It wasn't so much the MicroVMS operating system that was faulty, but the9 micro-documentation that came with it that was the pitts.   L And yes, my first program on VMS was to write a "terminal" that would go outH to the service bureau and capture our data as it was being spewed out. IK didn't knwo about ASTs so I have to poll the port constantly for characters K (takling 100% of CPU ;-) - again, due to bad micro-documenmtation. Then, at K one point, the folks at the TSC told me about ASts and I said "wow, that is 
 way cool".  K And when I got 5.0 delivered, I installed it that night (how naive I was !) G and low and behold, I suddently had SET HOST/DTE which made my terminal F program useless :-) (by that time though, my program had acquires some> scripting capabilities - that was before I knew about kermit).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 14:31:03 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>0 Subject: Re: Callable mail oddity (999 char max)/ Message-ID: <3E19CB64.972CC77C@vl.videotron.ca>    grant@rigel.cc.wmich.edu wrote:  > I > You might check to see whether the PQL_MWS* and PQL_DWS* parameters are I > the same on both node/systems.  Since they can override the UAF quotas, 4 > this might account for the difference in behavior.  M I checked some of the parameters, and the only difference I could see was the  minimum byte lim( (PQL_MBYTLM ) which I dynamically upped.  J It is a detached process, so perhaps some of the process quotas don't come> from the UAF. But here is what show proc/all provides on VELO:   Process Quotas:   Account name: SYSTEM F  CPU limit:                      Infinite  Direct I/O limit:        50F  Buffered I/O byte count quota:     97760  Buffered I/O limit:     100F  Timer queue entry quota:              49  Open file quota:        147F  Paging file quota:                 18406  Subprocess quota:        10F  Default page fault cluster:           80  AST quota:               99F  Enqueue quota:                       300  Shared file limit:        0F  Max detached processes:                0  Max active jobs:          0    + Here is what happens when I run it on BIKE:  Process Quotas:   Account name: SYSTEM F  CPU limit:                      Infinite  Direct I/O limit:       100F  Buffered I/O byte count quota:     99296  Buffered I/O limit:     100F  Timer queue entry quota:              49  Open file quota:        147F  Paging file quota:                 18444  Subprocess quota:        10F  Default page fault cluster:           64  AST quota:               99F  Enqueue quota:                       300  Shared file limit:        0F  Max detached processes:                0  Max active jobs:          0      L Also, the message issued by MAIL which originales in an RMS-x-RTB means thatG MAIL made a $GET request supplying a buffer to receive a record that is D shorter than the record, so I am not sure it would be quota related.  N Has there been work to increase MAIL's buffers done in the various patches forN VAX VMS 7.2 ? (I think I have VAXUPDATE-1 done, as well as the backup and mime and pcsi installed)    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:14:29 -0800 ( From: Alan Frisbie <Abuse@NelsonUSA.com>  Subject: Re: DEC Graphics Tablet- Message-ID: <3E1A0DD5.2257B82B@NelsonUSA.com>   ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > d > In article <3e19aadb$1@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes:* > >>Here's a rare bird for the DEC museum: > >>A > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2084140838  > > 8 > >Good luck with the tablet, Alan!  Say "hi" to Sharon.  E The less Sharon knows about me buying more "stuff", the better.   :-)   O > That item was inaccessible at ebay during the last hour or so of the auction.   * Heh, Heh, Heh.   We have our ways...   :-}  B I'm looking forward to playing with it.   I was expecting it to goC for a lot more money, but I won't complain.   Was someone expecting C to jump in at the last minute and out-bid me?   You would have been F disappointed, and I would have been upset at having to pay more money. It's better this way.   :-)    Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 18:55:59 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)   Subject: Re: DEC Graphics Tablet3 Message-ID: <UFv2gn7E1YOK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   X In article <3E1A0DD5.2257B82B@NelsonUSA.com>, Alan Frisbie <Abuse@NelsonUSA.com> writes:# > VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:   P >> That item was inaccessible at ebay during the last hour or so of the auction. > , > Heh, Heh, Heh.   We have our ways...   :-}  . Alan is located in California, just like eBay.  C Now I understand what BGP (Border Gateway Protocol) is all about...    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:58:49 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> = Subject: Re: Demise of VMS (and most other operating systems) ' Message-ID: <3E1A2649.10E827D6@fsi.net>    Bob Koehler wrote: > ] > In article <3E163174.D173BC93@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > > Bob Koehler wrote: > >> [snip] H > >>    In fact, if it did change I think existing tools like Multinet'sJ > >>    recordsize command would allow one to revert to the old behaviour. > > J > > Can you expound a bit? I've been using Multinet for some years now and; > > this is the first I've heard of a "recordsize command".  > 
 >   $ftp node  >   Username: xyz 
 >   Password:  >   node> help record-size > 
 > RECORD-SIZE  > B >      Sets or displays the record size for IMAGE mode transferes. > 
 >      Format  >  >        RECORD-SIZE [size]  > % >   Additional information available:  >  >   Parameters Example >  > RECORD-SIZE Subtopic?   D Never had occasion to need such a thing. So, that's a new one on me.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:02:08 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 0 Subject: Re: F$GETDVI ("AVL") in an IF statement' Message-ID: <3E1A2710.57784710@fsi.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:J > > Well, it would mislead Mr. Dachtera, no? And some might expect that ifI > > it reported FALSE, then they should be able to make it available with 7 > > SET DEVICE/AVAILABLE. Those people would be misled.  >  > ok, fair point.  > P > However, existing code would have to have the test for EXISTS already to avoidK > AVL from causing the command procedure to bombing out. However, code that K > would rely on ON ERROR to branch to code in case the device doesn't exist P > after a F$GETDVI(xxx, "AVL") would stop working since an error would no longer > be triggered.  > & > So, let me reformulate the question: > F > During a system boot in a cluster, assuming no drive is manually SETL > VOL/NOAVAIL, does testing just for EXISTS ensure that a MOUNT will succeedP > (even if it causes mount verif or if drive is already in mount verification on > another node) ?   F I'd have to say that you still need to test, or at least provide errorC traps, beyond simple existence to determine it's state in so far as  that's possible from VMS.   @ FWIW, though, most folks seem to just SET NOON and run through aG hard-coded list of MOUNTs, allowing the bad ones to fail and be handled E later during SYSTARTUP_VMS or manually after the startup is complete.    ..., AFAIK.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 18:59 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) * Subject: Re: Finding info on Alpha Systems, Message-ID: <6JAN200318595205@gerg.tamu.edu>  " "ICUSC" <sales@hpaq.net> writes.../ }Now go to hp.com or compaq.com and try to find  }anything about alpha systems  } % }For the layman, Alphas DO NOT EXIST.  }  }Sad... very sad ! }  }DT  }  }--  }Island Computers US Corp.   It isn't that hard to get to.    1) Go to www.hp.com  2) click on "enterprise" 3) click on "servers"   D Bingo. You are now on a page that mentions AlphaServers and links toB an Alpha page from which you can easily get to some basic info, at least, on the AlphaStuff.    --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 19:20 CST' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) * Subject: Re: Finding info on Alpha Systems, Message-ID: <6JAN200319203090@gerg.tamu.edu>   peter@langstoeger.at writes...c }In article <3E16BE37.7090504@vajhoej.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:  }>Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:? }>> Care to explain your rants ? Or did you forget the smiley ? J }>> Goto Servers or Workstations Home Page, then to Alpha Servers or Alpha }>> Workstations. K }>> Sad is only, DS10, DS20e and ES40 are the current workstation offerings K }>> (btw. where is the XP900 and XP1000 ?) while servers cover the DS25 and ) }>> ES45 (and even the GS series) also...  }>! }>XP900 is DS10 as far as I know.  }> }>XP1000 is EOL'ed I assume. } 7 }1.) Yes, XP900 is the workstation variant of the DS10. C }Why did they EOL the workstation while still offering the server ? H }Why do the offer the DS10 (with graphic card) in the workstation page ?  B The didn't "EOL" the XP900 as such, they just dropped the name. An@ XP900 is exactly the same as a DS10/466 with a graphics card andF the Workstation license package, except for the name tag on the front.B You can still buy the same thing, thus it is not EOL - unless they? have stopped selling the 466 MHz version, in which case you can D still get the faster better 600 MHz version (as far as I know, there/ was never a 600MHz XP900, they are all 466MHz).    }2.) Yes, XP1000 is EOLed.D }Why did they EOL the XP1000 and didn't EOL the DS10 ? The XP1000 is@ }faster (500MHz and 667MHz) than the DS10 (433MHz and 600MHz)...  H It isn't much faster (compared the the 600MHz DS10 - the 466 version hasI rather limited memory throughput in comparison, IIRC). They probably just G wanted to reduce the number of different systems and went with the DS10  since that made more sense.   E }There is great inconsistency in the HPQ alpha workstation offerings.  }This was my point.  }  }-Peter   E Actually, by eliminating the XP1000 they have made the offerings more D consistent. It was the odd system - the only one available as only aF workstation and not a server. The DS10 also has the advantage of beingG directly rack mountable, but the XP1000 was in a PC type minitower case ) and probably not directly rack mountable.    --- Carl   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:55:21 +0000 (UTC)+ From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)  Subject: Re: FTP+ Message-ID: <avcjep$e8o$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   b In article <3e19c133$1@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes: > M >The best thing to do is to leave FTP disabled and download and install HGFTP I >from Hunter Goatley's FTP site at Process Software.  It just plain works 0 >better than the Compaq/HP TCP/IP Services' FTP. >--   $ Does HGFTP now support ODS-5 disks ?/ Last time I asked (sometime ago now) it didn't.   
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University    J >Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot com6 >Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM.A >3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "."  >Grand Rapids, MI 49512-19919 >       This opinion doesn't represent that of my company  >    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 18:42:10 -0800 - From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)  Subject: Re: FTP= Message-ID: <3ff5fed3.0301061842.2c95c8f4@posting.google.com>   ^ david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) wrote in message news:<avcjep$e8o$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>...d > In article <3e19c133$1@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes: > > O > >The best thing to do is to leave FTP disabled and download and install HGFTP K > >from Hunter Goatley's FTP site at Process Software.  It just plain works 2 > >better than the Compaq/HP TCP/IP Services' FTP. > >--  > & > Does HGFTP now support ODS-5 disks ?1 > Last time I asked (sometime ago now) it didn't.  > J Not yet.  I haven't had time to look into it, and demand has been hovering1 around nil (you and one other have asked for it).    Hunter   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:29:51 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ? Subject: Re: HP: VMS is a mature product, was: Re: VMS in Vegas ' Message-ID: <3E1A2D8F.FA508C65@fsi.net>    Simon Clubley wrote: > ] > In article <3E18E4E1.21B59F38@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > > = > > Others don't want to get laughed right out of the country G > > club ("You dumped how much on THAT antiquated, legacy stuff? Are ya  > > nuts??!!").  > >  > ; > Well, HP does consider VMS to be a "mature product". See:  > 0 > http://www.hp.com/large/faq/alpha/page4.html#1 > 6 >        ---------------------------------------------L > Q: Why does HP think it can continue to sell and maintain a mature product > like OpenVMS? L > A: The current base of 411,000 systems worldwide is testament to the valueL > that customers have placed on the robust, "bullet-proof" capabilities thatI > OpenVMS provides. In addition, OpenVMS generates a large and profitable I > revenue stream for the company, and is actually generating new customer 2 > projects in targeted industries like Healthcare.6 >        --------------------------------------------- > N > The whole of that page leaves the impression that HP is only concerned aboutK > maintaining VMS for the current user base, and not about growing the user E > base, which ties in with the use of the mature product tag for VMS.  > L > "is actually generating new customer projects" indeed. [My goodness! We've? > actually sold VMS to a new customer! Amazing! - HP Marketing]    So, ...   E ...where "legacy" and "mature" were both venerable, respected labels, " now they're BOTH derrogations, eh?  ( I'd LOVE to know how this got started...   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:17:12 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> M Subject: Re: I just wanted to share a note I sen	t to the group this mornin	g $ Message-ID: <3e19ca7b$1@news.si.com>  6 >I don't expect americans to know what a depanneur is.  H Isn't that one of those things that you use to drill holes in your head? <wink> --  I Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot com 5 Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM. @ 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991 8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:19:52 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> K Subject: Re: I just wanted to share a note I sent to the group this morning ' Message-ID: <3E1A2B38.34A60E88@fsi.net>    Brian 'Jarai' Chase wrote: > ) > In article <3E150F3C.6D8FD7EE@fsi.net>, 2 > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > J > > Those who value political correctness should move on to the next post. > > Fair warning.  > > F > > Remember when lawn-mowers, blenders, even extension cords were notK > > plastered with so many safety placards you can barely find (or use) the  > > product? > > 6 > > Remember when sex was dirty and the air was clean? > > $ > > Remember when morality was cool? > > I > > Remember when marriage was about the procreation of a family, and not L > > about two people making a hobby out of playing with each other's gonads? > > I > > Remember when people took responsibility for their actions instead of L > > "choosing" to erase their mistakes at the expense of a defenseless life? > > 8 > > Remember when being outrageous was truly an outrage? > > 9 > > Remember when expressways really were "express" ways?  > > L > > Remember when you could wander the airport for hours, just for something
 > > to do? > > K > > Remember when people actually had the back-bone to fight terrorists and K > > not let them take control of an airliner and turn it into an incendiary 1 > > missile? One group of folks did not forget...  > > 4 > > Remember when English was our national language? > > . > > Remember when music actually had a melody? > > % > > Remember when civility had value?  > > K > > Remember when neighbors really were neighbors, not just the people next 	 > > door?  > > G > > Remember when Americans stood for something rather than falling for 0 > > anything they saw advertised by a celebrity? > >  > > Remember when... > > A > > ...that Dachtera asshole wasn't here to post stuff like this?  > 7 > Overheard last weekend at "Old Man Dachtera's" place:  > E >   HEY, YOU GODDAMNED MEXICAN COMMUNIST TERRORIST KIDS!  QUIT HAVING H >   HAVING DIRTY SEX ON MY LAWN WITH THE PEOPLE NEXT DOOR WHILE DRINKINGD >   YOUR CAFFEINATED ROOTBEER OUT OF STYROFOAM CUPS AND LISTENING TOB >   THAT IRRESPONSIBLE RAP MUSIC ON YOUR JAPANESE GHETTO BLASTERS!- >   AND QUIT CALLIN' ME "MR. TERADACTYL"!!!1!   ' I'd lay off the coffee if I were you...    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:21:02 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> K Subject: Re: I just wanted to share a note I sent to the group this morning ' Message-ID: <3E1A2B7E.50275DB9@fsi.net>    Brian Tillman wrote: > 3 > >Remember when English was our national language?2 > L > It's difficult to remember something that was never there.  At no time hasA > English ever been the "national language" of the United States.r  C I find it interesting that no one even tried to distinguish betweenn, "national language" and "official language".   -- r David J. Dachterau dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:41:22 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>8 Subject: Inquirer articles on HP treatment of Marvel/EV70 Message-ID: <01C2B581.0CCB1680@sulfer.icius.com>  D I hope these aren't reposts, my link to the group was down for a few? days but I didn't see references to them when I did some google  searching on the group:e   Marvel thrashing Superdome:s  ( http://www.theinquirer.org/?article=7045  . HP Suppressing benchmarks in favour of Itanic:  ( http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7034  + Here the quote I have most trouble with is:   D "And, we understand, the HP suits have now laid down a diktat saying? that not one Alpha benchmark will be released until the Itaniumm platform(s) is/are faster."e  5 I really don't need to add any further comment, do I?'   Shanes   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 21:13:55 -0500e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)< Subject: Re: Inquirer articles on HP treatment of Marvel/EV7L Message-ID: <rdeininger-0601032113550001@user-2ive327.dialup.mindspring.com>  < In article <01C2B581.0CCB1680@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> wrote:s  E >I hope these aren't reposts, my link to the group was down for a fewu@ >days but I didn't see references to them when I did some google >searching on the group: >W >Marvel thrashing Superdome: >p) >http://www.theinquirer.org/?article=7045t >w/ >HP Suppressing benchmarks in favour of Itanic:  >s) >http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7034i >o, >Here the quote I have most trouble with is: >aE >"And, we understand, the HP suits have now laid down a diktat sayinge@ >that not one Alpha benchmark will be released until the Itanium >platform(s) is/are faster." >u6 >I really don't need to add any further comment, do I?  J Sounds like the grunts are simply telling customers what they want to knowA about the Marvels, including performance.  Test drive systems and6J customer-accessbile Marvel labs are available, so there's nothing stopping8 folks from trying out their workloads on Marvel systems.  F But this isn't really the same as a formal benchmark, which requires aI fair amount of documentation.  Setting up a real benchmark takes a lot oftH time and money, so formal, publishable benchmarks may be at the mercy of
 the suits.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 03:41:02 GMTM# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> < Subject: Re: Inquirer articles on HP treatment of Marvel/EV7H Message-ID: <i%rS9.185640$yW.70042@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagerF news:rdeininger-0601032113550001@user-2ive327.dialup.mindspring.com...> > In article <01C2B581.0CCB1680@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith > <ssmith@icius.com> wrote:- >-C > >I hope these aren't reposts, my link to the group was down for ar fewiB > >days but I didn't see references to them when I did some google > >searching on the group: > >g > >Marvel thrashing Superdome: > >a+ > >http://www.theinquirer.org/?article=70458 > >F1 > >HP Suppressing benchmarks in favour of Itanic:. > >r+ > >http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7034  > >l. > >Here the quote I have most trouble with is: > >M@ > >"And, we understand, the HP suits have now laid down a diktat sayingB > >that not one Alpha benchmark will be released until the Itanium > >platform(s) is/are faster." > >'8 > >I really don't need to add any further comment, do I? >>D > Sounds like the grunts are simply telling customers what they want to knowUC > about the Marvels, including performance.  Test drive systems andsC > customer-accessbile Marvel labs are available, so there's nothing  stopping: > folks from trying out their workloads on Marvel systems. >eF > But this isn't really the same as a formal benchmark, which requires anD > fair amount of documentation.  Setting up a real benchmark takes a lot ofA > time and money, so formal, publishable benchmarks may be at the- mercy of > the suits.     Robert,   3 True, but the benchmarks are all part of Marketing.t  F If you don't plan on marketing to new customers then I guess you don'tC need to benchmark to compete with Sun and IBM. We could quibble andr@ say the Sun and IBM don't have anything that 'competes', but theE ultimate competition is for the check that the customer signs, and HP F seems, as usual, to be doing precious little to have any new customersB signing checks that say 'For Marvel Alphaserver' on the memo line.  E So HP decides to simply let the existing customers run their own appsyD to see if the extra performance is worth the pain of dealing with HPB and forgets about spending what it takes to defend and counter FUDF from Sun & IBM as far a Alpha/VMS is concerned, and neglects to expand Alpha/VMS market share.o  E Chicken and egg conundrum - no benchmarks, no new customers - no news ? customer, no money for new benchmarks. Pretty soon no business.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:45:56 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>< Subject: Re: Inquirer articles on HP treatment of Marvel/EV7/ Message-ID: <3E1A4D70.C6293321@vl.videotron.ca>    Robert Deininger wrote: L > Sounds like the grunts are simply telling customers what they want to knowC > about the Marvels, including performance.  Test drive systems and L > customer-accessbile Marvel labs are available, so there's nothing stopping: > folks from trying out their workloads on Marvel systems.  E Even for exsiting customers, it makes our jobs far easier to convince-L management if we can provide them with easily accessible benchmarks. As longM as HP hides that information, we can't really initiate any project internallya7 since we have no idea of the menefits of that new chip.c  E HP may not want to actively market Alpha, but it should allow the VMStL loyalists to do the job it doesn't want to do. And for us to do HP's job, we have to be given the tools.   H HP has already gotten egg on face due to the Inquirer article. It should/ quickly remedy this and publish the benchmarks.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:17:32 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>< Subject: Re: Inquirer articles on HP treatment of Marvel/EV7/ Message-ID: <3E1A46CB.C36EB814@vl.videotron.ca>i  J If HP were smart and independant of Intel, it would market the hell out of Alpha's remaining life.e  E Yes, if they push Alpha and acquire new customers based on Alpha hightG performance, it adds a certain liability later on since HP will have to(N provide lots of "free" slow-unwanted IA64s to replace the Alpha's performance, assuming IA64 survives.s  J On the other hand, if HP refuses to market Alpha's significant performance3 edge, HP is garanteed not to acquire new customers.s  L So, what is better ? cheaply acquire new customers with an existing bleedingM edge technmology and worry about IA64 later, or not acquire any new customerse period ?   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 18:57:00 -0600s+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)5N Subject: Re: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's3 Message-ID: <JylTDI29rc9e@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  [ In article <3E1A25F3.788F5BB3@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:    David,   	Your email bounces:  5 This is the Postfix program at host solitude.dls.net.   9 I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returnedi9 below could not be delivered to one or more destinations.e  8 For further assistance, please send mail to <postmaster>  9 If you do so, please include this problem report. You can 5 delete your own text from the message returned below.   +                         The Postfix program   N <djesys@fsi.net>: host mail-gateway.dls.net[209.242.10.148] said: 550 5.1.1 No     such local user: f_djesysa   				Robt   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 20:25:05 -0600S1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>nN Subject: Re: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's' Message-ID: <3E1A3A81.774A69F0@fsi.net>a   Rob Young wrote: > ] > In article <3E1A25F3.788F5BB3@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:v >  > David, >  >         Your email bounces:t > 7 > This is the Postfix program at host solitude.dls.net.r > ; > I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned ; > below could not be delivered to one or more destinations.  > : > For further assistance, please send mail to <postmaster> > ; > If you do so, please include this problem report. You cane7 > delete your own text from the message returned below.  > - >                         The Postfix programl > P > <djesys@fsi.net>: host mail-gateway.dls.net[209.242.10.148] said: 550 5.1.1 No >     such local user: f_djesysf  G Yeah. They dropped the old FSInet domain and are attempting forward FSIeB users to a DLS account. Trouble is, they screwed up the forwardingG address. Just as well - I don't want the other address to get "loose iniG the wild". So, I'll go back to my Earthlink address and I'll have to bedG vigilant for stuff that ends up among the spam that escapes Earthlink'sV
 spamtraps.   -- M David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:09:23 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>N Subject: RE: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's0 Message-ID: <01C2B5B7.23C59870@sulfer.icius.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote:
 <Big Snip>0 >I don't want the other address to get "loose inH >the wild". So, I'll go back to my Earthlink address and I'll have to beH >vigilant for stuff that ends up among the spam that escapes Earthlink's >spamtraps.-
 <End snip>  G There's a nice little piece of shareware out there called "mailwasher".fA If you're using POP3, mailwasher will let you preview mail before-D downloading it, and let you bounce it as if your account didn't evenF exist. Many of the bigger spammers drop bounced addresses. It includesE several automation tools, and I've found it quite effective. PC only,1G I'm afraid, but I'm sure it can work off a VMS based server so it's not<? /totally/ OT. Free to use indefinitely if you can live with theoE scrolling nag window, very reasonable "pay what you think it's worth"yE purchasing arrangements if you can't, or if you want to encourage theS author.t   www.mailwasher.com   Shanea  E P.S. I have nothing to do with the author other than liking his work.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:40:53 +0000S1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>nY Subject: Re: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's   going on 6 Message-ID: <3E19DBC5.44E47AED@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>  ? Ploughing (again) through old c.o.v threads, this has raised myk interest...t  D When I was looking around for Tru64 last year, I got told that thereF wasn't a Hobbyist programme for it as there is for VMS.  You can get aA Tru64 developers kit or similar for $99, IF YOU LIVE IN THE USA! /D Anybody outside of the USA was stuck with having to buy a full price license.  H I'd like to hear if that situation's changed as I'd like to run Tru64 or- Digital unix on an Alpha that I have here....h   Steve.     David J. Dachtera wrote: >  > Vilmos Soti wrote: > >a
 > > Hello, > >iH > > Does HP offer hobbyist license for other HP products other than VMS?H > > I looked around their homepage, but I didn't find anything relevant.M > > It seems this is an active newsgroup and people are aware of the hobbyistE > > program. > >vH > > I have a 712/80 parisc box lying around with HP-UX 9 on it and wouldA > > like to get a newer version so I can get familiar with HP-UX.. > >eB > > It seems HP-UX 9 is already hopelessly outdated so there is no > > reason to learn it.  > F > The hobbyist license concept was acquired by HP when they bought theJ > remains of Digital Equipment Corp. under the "Compaq" moniker. DEC - andD > later the Q - had hobbyist license programs for VMS and Tru64 (fkaB > Digital UNIX). Until the merger, HP never had a hobbyist license
 > program. >  > -- > David J. Dachterah > dba DJE Systemsl > http://www.djesys.com/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/E   -- oG "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent like E a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath.tA Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'"h% 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:41:19 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>Y Subject: RE: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's   going onn0 Message-ID: <01C2B578.99250B80@sulfer.icius.com>  D I realise these licenses are probably non-transferable. Does anybodyH know if it would be legal for me to buy the license for Steve as a gift?F Of course, in gratitude he might ship me some of the things I miss out here in The Colonies...w   ShaneM   -----Original Message-----8 From: Steve Reece [mailto:SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk]' Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 11:41 AMs To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComtG Subject: Re: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re:-< What's going on with the 7.3.1 VAX hobbyist kit at Montagar?    ? Ploughing (again) through old c.o.v threads, this has raised myA interest...M  D When I was looking around for Tru64 last year, I got told that thereF wasn't a Hobbyist programme for it as there is for VMS.  You can get aA Tru64 developers kit or similar for $99, IF YOU LIVE IN THE USA!  D Anybody outside of the USA was stuck with having to buy a full price license.  H I'd like to hear if that situation's changed as I'd like to run Tru64 or- Digital unix on an Alpha that I have here....t   Steve.     David J. Dachtera wrote: >  > Vilmos Soti wrote: > > 
 > > Hello, > >oH > > Does HP offer hobbyist license for other HP products other than VMS?H > > I looked around their homepage, but I didn't find anything relevant.M > > It seems this is an active newsgroup and people are aware of the hobbyistt > > program. > > H > > I have a 712/80 parisc box lying around with HP-UX 9 on it and wouldA > > like to get a newer version so I can get familiar with HP-UX.y > >cB > > It seems HP-UX 9 is already hopelessly outdated so there is no > > reason to learn it.  > F > The hobbyist license concept was acquired by HP when they bought theJ > remains of Digital Equipment Corp. under the "Compaq" moniker. DEC - andD > later the Q - had hobbyist license programs for VMS and Tru64 (fkaB > Digital UNIX). Until the merger, HP never had a hobbyist license
 > program. >  > -- > David J. Dachteras > dba DJE SystemsI > http://www.djesys.com/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/z   -- eG "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent like E a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath.cA Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'"S% 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"a   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 16:11:34 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)oY Subject: RE: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's   going onu3 Message-ID: <yhts0cWbsA5A@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <01C2B578.99250B80@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes: F > I realise these licenses are probably non-transferable. Does anybodyJ > know if it would be legal for me to buy the license for Steve as a gift?  D Would it be possible for him to buy it himself for delivery to you ?B That is, is there anything to prevent Steve from exporting the kit from your premises to his ?    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 03 04:35:45 +0100f) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)qY Subject: Re: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's   going on ) Message-ID: <qa0aRp+AY+8x@elias.decus.ch>   j In article <3E19DBC5.44E47AED@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>, Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk> writes:A > Ploughing (again) through old c.o.v threads, this has raised my 
 > interest...0 > F > When I was looking around for Tru64 last year, I got told that thereH > wasn't a Hobbyist programme for it as there is for VMS.  You can get aC > Tru64 developers kit or similar for $99, IF YOU LIVE IN THE USA! DF > Anybody outside of the USA was stuck with having to buy a full price
 > license. > J > I'd like to hear if that situation's changed as I'd like to run Tru64 or/ > Digital unix on an Alpha that I have here....  >   E IIRC, a colleague here managed to part with his $99 a couple of years H or so ago (maybe less) and did receive the goods. Dunno about the latest state of affairs though.     --  
 Paul Sture Switzerlandu   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:57:23 -0600v1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>AY Subject: Re: Is there a hobbyist program for other HP products? Was Re: What's going on w-' Message-ID: <3E1A25F3.788F5BB3@fsi.net>4   Steve Reece wrote: > A > Ploughing (again) through old c.o.v threads, this has raised myg
 > interest.... > F > When I was looking around for Tru64 last year, I got told that thereH > wasn't a Hobbyist programme for it as there is for VMS.  You can get aB > Tru64 developers kit or similar for $99, IF YOU LIVE IN THE USA!F > Anybody outside of the USA was stuck with having to buy a full price
 > license. > J > I'd like to hear if that situation's changed as I'd like to run Tru64 or/ > Digital unix on an Alpha that I have here....h  E AFAIK, $99 is still the case. IIRC, due to royalty issues, they can'tn? "give away" Tru64 for non-commercial use like they do with VMS.o   -- o David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/m   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2003 03:16:13 GMTo# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)mY Subject: Re: JF and backporting features (was: Re: Machine checks not always hardware fai * Message-ID: <avdgpt$8ag$2@web1.cup.hp.com>   JF Mezei wrote:KM : It is interesting that in the FAQ, it is specifically written that all 3100eO : workstations are so restricted with no hope of getting a rom upgrade and that<L : it is only microvax 3100s which are upgradable. Why is that ? Wouldn't the : ROMs be the same ?  L   This discussion involves both technical and business decisions, of course.  H   The ROM difference at its most simplistic is the use of six-byte SCSI L   commands versus the use of ten-byte SCSI commands used in later platforms.(   And yes, the ROMS do have differences.  K   The VAXstation 3100 series ROMs and the first-generation of MicroVAX 3100jJ   model 10 and model 20 series boxes all use a version of VMB and its bootL   drivers with six-byte SCSI commands.  The upgraded MicroVAX 3100 model 10eJ   and 20e series ROMs and all subsequent MicroVAX systems use a version of/   VMB that utilized the ten-byte SCSI commands.i  L   Could the changes have been made?  Donno.  Considering only the code, yes,K   clearly such changes are possible.  Considering rather more, I don't know I   if there was room available in the ROMs of these systems, as in generalsI   the code in the ROMs of this era tended to be packed in rather tightly.   J   If there was room within the ROMs, then yes, this extension could likelyH   have been implemented and deployed.  If there was no room in the ROMs,K   then larger ROMs would have been needed, and the ROMs may or may not haveaJ   had larger (and compatable) alternatives.  Without larger and compatableK   ROMs available, this ROM change then becomes a motherboard upgrade, or an D   exercise in removing chunks of code from within the existing ROMs.  K   Alternatively, the explanation could be as simple as somebody having lost-L   the console code that was involved in these boxes.  I don't know; stranger0   things have certainly happened over the years.  J   I have a recollection that somebody around was actively patching and wasJ   writing extensions for the older boot ROMs, and with some success.  I do%   not recall the specifics, off-hand.t  I   For some similar "fun" of the even older MicroVAX I console, please seeeH   the ancient VMBUVAX1 tool and related hackery -- this tool was how theI   MicroVAX I console was extended.  VMBUVAX1 was a version of the primaryrG   VMB bootstrap that mimicked the SYSBOOT secondary bootstrap, and thatbI   effectively supplemented the limited VMB that was found in the MicroVAX I   I KA610 ROMs.  The console ROM VMB image found and loaded SYSBOOT off aoH   VMB-supported device, though it actually got VMB with the boot driversJ   for the real target device and that version of VMB then wandered off and?   loaded the real SYSBOOT, and onwards through the bootstrap...I  H   Also note that the console boot drivers embeded within VMB are used toI   write the dump to the system disk during a system crash, in addition totG   their obvious use during an OpenVMS system bootstrap.  (This is wheren5   the boot driver limits get the most "interesting".)   I   And then there are the business discussions and market issues.  ClearlyNG   many things are possible.  Rather fewer tasks are profitable and are aF   thus commercially sustainable and commercially viable -- these olderG   VAXstation 3100 boxes work(ed) nicely, and can even easily and safelyyE   address data disks much larger than were available when the systemsgE   were shipped.  But hardware has and has always had its limits.   We F   have very similar discussions around the back-porting of new OpenVMSI   features to older OpenVMS versions.  Back-ports are variously possible,eI   but the ensuing complexity can be quite painful for all folks involved.mI   And the engineering and coordination efforts clearly detract from work aG   that can go into newer OpenVMS releases.  (We did, however, implementlJ   the universal OpenVMS Alpha feature back-porting tool: SYSVER.  See the K   FAQ; any OpenVMS feature you desire on any OpenVMS release you want.  :-)o    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 00:53:44 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>Y Subject: Re: JF and backporting features (was: Re: Machine checks not always hardware fai / Message-ID: <3E1A5D50.720481EC@vl.videotron.ca>    Hoff Hoffman wrote:  >  > JF Mezei wrote: O > : It is interesting that in the FAQ, it is specifically written that all 3100aQ > : workstations are so restricted with no hope of getting a rom upgrade and that1N > : it is only microvax 3100s which are upgradable. Why is that ? Wouldn't the > : ROMs be the same ? > N >   This discussion involves both technical and business decisions, of course. > I >   The ROM difference at its most simplistic is the use of six-byte SCSI N >   commands versus the use of ten-byte SCSI commands used in later platforms.* >   And yes, the ROMS do have differences. > M >   The VAXstation 3100 series ROMs and the first-generation of MicroVAX 3100 L >   model 10 and model 20 series boxes all use a version of VMB and its boot) >   drivers with six-byte SCSI commands. a  ( >   The upgraded MicroVAX 3100 model 10eL >   and 20e series ROMs and all subsequent MicroVAX systems use a version of1 >   VMB that utilized the ten-byte SCSI commands.t  L The FAQ seems to make a big difference between VAXstations and VAXservers inM terms of the ROM. Isn't it just the flick of a hidden not-so-secret switch ats3 the back that magically transforms one to another ?M  M Just curious as to why they would use different ROMs if each can convert intos the other with just a switch.p  K Also, if I have a VS42A-BD  (model 30), does this mean that I can put largefE drives on it ? Or am I prevented because it is used as a vaxstation ?   L Is there a way from VMS to find out if the system disk is mounted using 6 or 10 byte SCSI subsystem?   M >   Alternatively, the explanation could be as simple as somebody having lostsN >   the console code that was involved in these boxes.  I don't know; stranger2 >   things have certainly happened over the years.  N Isn't Sue supposed to make sure these things NEVER happen ? Perhaps we need toF send her a whip so she can make sure the engineers behave  :-) :-) ;_0  L >   I have a recollection that somebody around was actively patching and wasL >   writing extensions for the older boot ROMs, and with some success.  I do' >   not recall the specifics, off-hand..  J Yes, Mr Moeller posted the link to his web site not long ago here. But oneN needs to buy a ROM burning machine... and yesm his patches do erase part of te/ ROM but he had found parts that are never used..  C >   And then there are the business discussions and market issues. .  H Well, I think it would be a great business decision for HP to revive theK Microvax 3100 line with updated VAX chips running at 1.3ghz, 180 gig drive. H And while you are at it, package it as a laptop and sell it for USD $750F including full fledged VMS licence with clustering, TCPIP, C compiler.  J And if it generates much heat, then market it to northern countries during@ long winters where keeping our laps warm would be beneficial :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 14:46:41 -0400:0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>, Subject: Logical name security: sanity check/ Message-ID: <3E19CF0E.9BC4E58A@vl.videotron.ca>    If I do the following:  8 $CREATE/NAME_TABLE/PARENT=LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY CHOCOLATE2 $SET SECURITY CHOCOLATE/CLASS=LOGICAL_NAME_TABLE -& 	/OWNER=COOK /PROT=(W,G,O:RWCD,S:RWCD)  / Can I be assured that the only folks who could sB do a list of logical names in the table, SHOW LOG/TABLE=CHOCOLATE  or a< extract the value of a known logical name in that table SHOW! LOG/TABLE=CHOCOLATE SECRET_RECIPEe  	 would be:    User name COOK,H users in the SYSTEM groups users with SYSPRVs users with bypass ?)* installed imaged with sysprv and/or bypass  ' Are there others I should worry about ?e  L That logical name table will contain a pointed to a file that contains clear& passwords, so I want to protect it :-)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:36:11 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>0 Subject: RE: Logical name security: sanity check0 Message-ID: <01C2B580.3C641AF0@sulfer.icius.com>  F I don't see an obvious bug in your protection of the logical, but I doE see an obvious bug in the concept. If the file is plain text, it mustoH have at least the same security applied to it and if possible I'd have aF lookup program so it could be stored in encrypted form. You can't relyE on people not knowing where the file is, someone will talk or someone/E will work it out. Assume from day one that there are malicious people- who know where it is.P   Shane    -----Original Message-----7 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca]b' Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:47 AMm To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms, Subject: Logical name security: sanity check     If I do the following:  8 $CREATE/NAME_TABLE/PARENT=LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY CHOCOLATE2 $SET SECURITY CHOCOLATE/CLASS=LOGICAL_NAME_TABLE -& 	/OWNER=COOK /PROT=(W,G,O:RWCD,S:RWCD)  / Can I be assured that the only folks who could  B do a list of logical names in the table, SHOW LOG/TABLE=CHOCOLATE  or  < extract the value of a known logical name in that table SHOW! LOG/TABLE=CHOCOLATE SECRET_RECIPEr  	 would be:t   User name COOK,u users in the SYSTEM group  users with SYSPRV  users with bypass ?r* installed imaged with sysprv and/or bypass  ' Are there others I should worry about ?e  F That logical name table will contain a pointed to a file that contains clear & passwords, so I want to protect it :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 16:03:16 -0400O0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>0 Subject: Re: Logical name security: sanity check/ Message-ID: <3E19E0FC.75A18291@vl.videotron.ca>    Shane Smith wrote:G > see an obvious bug in the concept. If the file is plain text, it must1J > have at least the same security applied to it and if possible I'd have a9 > lookup program so it could be stored in encrypted form.u  J Well, the file will be protected so that only the application username hasF access to it. The only "user mode" access will be through a privilegedM shareable image. In the future I may consider encrypting the passwords. But IeL just want to get it going in a more or less productized form, and then basedN on user wishes/needs, perhaps add the encryption later. (all program access toI this file is done thourgh one module, but I use ALL-In-1 to seup the filerN itself since it doesn't require any fancy programming and provides full screen editing of each field etc etc.  K the goal of the "secret" name table is to be able to pass parameters to the M application during startup while allowing multiple concurrent processes (in a ! cluster ) eventually to co-exist.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 22:20:09 +0000p1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>aP Subject: Re: Machine checks not always hardware failures, was: Re: Machine Check6 Message-ID: <3E1A0119.5DCB23ED@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>  C Maybe suggest that he's a more responsible rather than older.  More(G responsible might then get him to think that the smaller disk is ideal.   F Bit like the Chelmsford (Essex) Boyz who decide they must have a CapriF rather than the Luton boyz' Chevettes - the bigger engine in the Capri@ uses more gas and they don't get their partners as far as Canvey
 Island....   ;o)e   Steve.   JF Mezei wrote:n >  > John Travell wrote:iN > > Please remind your teenage Mvax3100 that the firmware in some of the olderP > > models cannot access lbn's above 1Gb, so if you treat him to a bigger systemN > > disk it is possible to put critical boot files in places he cannot access. > > :-)l > M > No, I don't want to tell him that his genes were purposefully restricted bywQ > Grand Pa Olsen... It would demoralize him and remove hope for future growth :-)k > M > It is interesting that in the FAQ, it is specifically written that all 3100 O > workstations are so restricted with no hope of getting a rom upgrade and thatgL > it is only microvax 3100s which are upgradable. Why is that ? Wouldn't the > ROMs be the same ?   --  G "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent likenE a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath. A Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'"e% 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 14:54:29 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) , Subject: Re: Marvel talks at The Inquirer...3 Message-ID: <c5kwi2EC19j4@eisner.encompasserve.org>   R In article <3E198C2B.337DA5D6@attbi.com>, Bob Willard <BobwBSGS@attbi.com> writes:  C > The uVAX-II, the 8200, and the 780 were very close to a dead heatOD > if you ignored floating point:  all three ran 5 MHz clocks and allD > three achieved about the same ticks per instruction.  If you addedC > floating point to the benchmark mix, then the 8200 was still veryrB > close to the 780, but the uVAX-II fell off a bit: ~90% IIRC with> > the benchmark mix then favored by the VAX architecture gang. > E > Whether the uVAX-II was a tie or a near-tie with the performance of A > a 780, it was without doubt a huge winner in price/performance.D  C    You had to stay away from the character instructions, which were A    emulated on MV II.  Lots of our favorite speed improvements wee?    had with MOVTC on 11/780 were much slower than coding a loop A    on the MV II.  In fact a Fortran character*80 A = B was sloweri@    than a do loop A(i:i) = B(i:i) because the compiler generated#    an emulated MOVC3 for the first.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 22:59:36 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"), Subject: Re: Marvel talks at The Inquirer...6 Message-ID: <00A1991C.B14953C6@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  n In article <n9gS9.179757$yW.86178@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > @ >That's why they sold uVMS on it initially instead of the 'full'D >version of VMS. Many companies didn't know how easy or difficult itD >would be to 'port' from VMS 3.x or 4.x on a 780 or 750 to uVMS on aG >MVII, and DEC wan't about to help them do it, so many companies stayedf >locked into 750/780 systems.r  L It certainly wasn't my impression at the time that uVMS was anything but VMSH (possibly pre-tailored to be installable from only 26 floppies) with theI possible addition of DECwindows support.  I'm pretty sure I saw marketingsK literature that said applications should just run without even a recompile.    -- Alan-    O ===============================================================================r0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-30561M  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025iO ===============================================================================    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 21:37:18 GMTf# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)e$ Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.2 on a Multia* Message-ID: <avcsue$pl6$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  S In article <3E138464.1020905@Znbnet.nb.ca>, Marco Shaw <marco@Znbnet.nb.ca> writes:hH :Getting back into VMS for 2003.  I had it running on a Multia, which I  :dusted off yesterday. ..5 :Any help to get me going again would be appreciated.t  G   The SRM console is exceedingly fragile and limited on the Multia, and G   OpenVMS Alpha is itself officially not supported on Multia -- you are H   seeking to use an unsupported software kit here, a kit intended solely   for use by OpenVMS hobbyists.v  I   Please see the OpenVMS FAQ for Multia pointers and related information.vH   You must read and follow the instructions within the referenced MultiaI   software kit exactly -- the referenced websites will also have details,o
   as well.  G   As stated elsewhere in the OpenVMS FAQ, OpenVMS expects that all SCSIhJ   CD-ROM devices support 512-byte block transfers.  Various SCSI CD drivesH   do not have this support.  The RRD-series CD devices (obviously) do...  K   There are presently no plans to revise the current Multia-related OpenVMSRK   files, and versions of these Multia files are not included within current$2   nor planned future OpenVMS Alpha distributions.   H   I would encourage you to acquire a different (used) Alpha system, and J   particularly one that is officially supported by OpenVMS Alpha operatingH   system.  These are readily available, including one vendor that is (orL   was) selling AlphaServer DS10L EV6-class systems for (well) under US$1000.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comH   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:53:55 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> ; Subject: Re: SAN recommendations mixing VMS, Solaris, Linuxa" Message-ID: <3e19d094@news.si.com>  K >Not sure if still valid or even what the solution involves, but check out:n3 >http://www.es.avnet.com/about/news/2000/sanway.aspo  ! Oh!  I'll certainly check it out.r -- nI Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot coml5 Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM.u@ 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991k8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:45:20 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> & Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth$ Message-ID: <3e19ce90$1@news.si.com>  > >> My recollection is the vax 6000 was always kind of unloved./ >The VAX 6000 was quite popular in many places.o  H We had two of them.  They performed well enough at the time with their 6 VUPS.  -- aI Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot com 5 Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM.o@ 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991m8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 14:38:25 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>& Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth/ Message-ID: <3E19CD1E.E6DD64E8@vl.videotron.ca>a   Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: E > The substituted glue on HDA's at Rev F (IIRC) would liquify at warmnB > temperatures and flow to the bottom of the HDA and crash head 13% > into the bottom platter every time.3 > G > You had about 3 days at the most from the ecc errors on head 13 untilR% > you had a dead unrecoverable drive.   I Is it possible such a failure also happened on RA82s circa 1991 or 1990 ?g  M I seem to recall having received a warning about possible failure and needingtJ to replace drives, but management at that bank (who were not warm to VAX),K decided it wasn't worth acting upon it. But a few days later, at night, onegJ error was logged on one drive, and I initiated a backup plan (we have dualL hosted RA drives). The next day, the DEC guy was in to replace the drives...  M I am just wondering if such a failure would have also given us at most 3 daysr before total failure.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 14:57:22 -0600t; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)p& Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth3 Message-ID: <zp$9X$VSDKW5@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  g In article <avcb4t$d97$1@shell.monmouth.com>, pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) writes:i > F > I believe the original DEC plan was for two machines -- aquarius andI > another arridus or something -- one was an air-cooled box and the otherM > water cooled.m  E    What we heard was DEC was fairly sure the 9000 would require watera@    cooling, thus the code name, and was suprized when one of the>    engineers came up with a working air cooling system for it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 16:26:22 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>& Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth/ Message-ID: <3E19E664.ECDFEFFA@vl.videotron.ca>t   Bob Koehler wrote:G >    What we heard was DEC was fairly sure the 9000 would require water B >    cooling, thus the code name, and was suprized when one of the@ >    engineers came up with a working air cooling system for it.  N Wasn't the 9000 the first attempt at a CMOS machine (or whatatever technology)J which was used by IBM for its mainframes, and thus, since IBM needed waterL cooling, it was expected that DEC's competing machines would also need water	 cooling ?R   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:05:56 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>c& Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth' Message-ID: <3E1A27F4.C04CEA46@fsi.net>d   "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > Bill,i >  > Re: water cooling .. > F > As I recall (and I have no idea if true), it was not just simple tap/ > water, but purified to certain specification.  > E > This had implications with respect to it being readily availabilityn > around the globe as well.m  F Hhmmm... I can see it now - five-gallon buckets of DECcoolant lined up down the hall...   --   David J. Dachteral dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:45:28 -0500, From: "Richard Tomkins" <tomkinsr@istop.com>& Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth9 Message-ID: <PnrS9.1895$7h3.401843@news20.bellglobal.com>t  J The VAX 9000, code name Aquarius, was to be a water cooled machine. DuringJ the development of the special logic carriers in Kanata, it was found thatL heat removal from the system could be comfortably done strictly on the basis< of conduction though the metal frames of the logic carriers.  G The AlphaServer 2100 in fact has an airplane wing in it for cooling them@ memory interface logic chips, the upside down plastic wing beingK substantially cheaper and easier to refit than a metal heatsink on a custom  packaged chip.   rtta        F "Rupert Pigott" <darkboo-remove-this-ng.@hotmail.com> wrote in message. news:ava54f$ir6$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...> > "Chris Hedley" <cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk> wrote in message% > news:i44ava.ol2.ln@teabag.cbhnet....0 > > According to Arne Vajhj  <arne@vajhoej.dk>: > > > 9000 was air-cooled. > > >d< > > > That was why the aquarious was such a good code-name ! > >hC > > From what I'd heard (and there were lots of things to be heard,eB > > which ones were accurate is anyone's guess!) it was originally@ > > intended to be water (or other liquid) cooled but the designB > > was changed at some point to use air-cooling instead, possiblyA > > causing some reliability problems.  Any truth in that?  Well,f" > > your guess is as good as mine! >t> > Come to think of it did DEC ever do a liquid cooled machine,# > including 1-offs and prototypes ?8 > < > I know they did some funky heatsinks and heatpipes but I'd% > count those as air-cooling still...  > 	 > Cheers,  > Rupert >0 >B   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:32:07 -0500- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> I Subject: Re: VERY ON-TOPIC:  quoted-printable shit and Mickey$chlock mailv5 Message-ID: <avclk3$ea48a$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>p   JF Mezei wrote:a >...G > But i agree that MIME is not of the quality one would expect from VMSe: > engineers. Why must it clear the screen when it starts ?  K It doesn't just clear the screen, it positions the cursor 5 different timesu and clears the screen twice.   $ mcr mime<CR> <ESC>)0<ESC>[4ld <ESC>)0<ESC>[4ld <ESC>= <ESC>[1;24rn <ESC>[;H" <ESC>[2J            ! Clear Screen <ESC>[24;1Hf <ESC>[;H" <ESC>[2J            ! Clear Screen! <ESC>[;H-<ESC>[1;1HMIME> <CTRL-Z> 
 <ESC>[2;1H
 <ESC>[4;1H <ESC>> <ESC>[mw ^@$h  G If you want fun, turn on your display control characters option and try 
 $ MCR MIME
 MIME> <CR>
 MIME> <CR>
 MIME> HELP  G The programmer keeps track of where he thinks you are on the screen andhK positions each MIME> prompt with an ESC sequence; why not just use <CR> and-I <LF>? In HELP the programmers sends TABS and BS sequences to position thee0 topics. Definitely not up to VMS standards IMHO.     -- Peter WeaverD Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer,A nor the company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that ito sub-contracts to.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:17:02 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> I Subject: Re: VERY ON-TOPIC:  quoted-printable shit and Mickey$chlock mailo' Message-ID: <3E1A2A8E.DBB84991@fsi.net>!   Peter Weaver wrote:t >  > JF Mezei wrote:a > >...I > > But i agree that MIME is not of the quality one would expect from VMSa< > > engineers. Why must it clear the screen when it starts ? > M > It doesn't just clear the screen, it positions the cursor 5 different timesa > and clears the screen twice. >  > $ mcr mime<CR> > <ESC>)0<ESC>[4lc > <ESC>)0<ESC>[4l  > <ESC>=
 > <ESC>[1;24r 
 > <ESC>[;H$ > <ESC>[2J            ! Clear Screen
 > <ESC>[24;1H 
 > <ESC>[;H$ > <ESC>[2J            ! Clear Screen# > <ESC>[;H-<ESC>[1;1HMIME> <CTRL-Z>  > <ESC>[2;1H > <ESC>[4;1H > <ESC>>	 > <ESC>[m9 > ^@$a > I > If you want fun, turn on your display control characters option and try  > $ MCR MIME > MIME> <CR> > MIME> <CR> > MIME> HELP > I > The programmer keeps track of where he thinks you are on the screen andsM > positions each MIME> prompt with an ESC sequence; why not just use <CR> andrK > <LF>? In HELP the programmers sends TABS and BS sequences to position them2 > topics. Definitely not up to VMS standards IMHO.  D The programmer was likely weaned on GUIs and probably has never even9 HEARD of a teletype, DECwriter (LA100, LA120, etc.), etc.    -- n David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems: http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:18:07 -0600e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>gI Subject: Re: VERY ON-TOPIC:  quoted-printable shit and Mickey$chlock mail-' Message-ID: <3E1A2ACF.237BC733@fsi.net>6   Peter Weaver wrote:0 >  > JF Mezei wrote:m > >...I > > But i agree that MIME is not of the quality one would expect from VMS < > > engineers. Why must it clear the screen when it starts ? > M > It doesn't just clear the screen, it positions the cursor 5 different times  > and clears the screen twice. >  > $ mcr mime<CR> > <ESC>)0<ESC>[4l  > <ESC>)0<ESC>[4lt > <ESC>=
 > <ESC>[1;24r 
 > <ESC>[;H$ > <ESC>[2J            ! Clear Screen
 > <ESC>[24;1H-
 > <ESC>[;H$ > <ESC>[2J            ! Clear Screen# > <ESC>[;H-<ESC>[1;1HMIME> <CTRL-Z>t > <ESC>[2;1H > <ESC>[4;1H > <ESC>>	 > <ESC>[mX > ^@$i > I > If you want fun, turn on your display control characters option and try- > $ MCR MIME > MIME> <CR> > MIME> <CR> > MIME> HELP > I > The programmer keeps track of where he thinks you are on the screen andnM > positions each MIME> prompt with an ESC sequence; why not just use <CR> andeK > <LF>? In HELP the programmers sends TABS and BS sequences to position ther2 > topics. Definitely not up to VMS standards IMHO.  6 Out of curiosity, what happens when you SET TERM/HARD?   --   David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:31:01 -0600:1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>t. Subject: Re: VMS in Vegas (Was [OT] Lotteries)' Message-ID: <3E1A2DD5.D58CED8E@fsi.net>    Nic Clews wrote: >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > >i > G > > That's exactly what everyone argues canNOT be done: customers value I > > their secrecy, for whatever reason. Some don't want their competitiveeI > > edge exposed ("Wow! They invested in VMS and Alpha? We'll never catcheI > > 'em now!"). Others don't want to get laughed right out of the countryrG > > club ("You dumped how much on THAT antiquated, legacy stuff? Are yao > > nuts??!!").n > D > There is a third. Attempted, failed system replacement caused hugeI > embarrassment, and a back-pedal to reinstate the former working systemsN  > while "hushing up" the fiasco.  A I'd think they WANT to embarrass the failing vendor, for spite orb revenge at the very least...   -- o David J. Dachteral dba DJE SystemsM http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:32:36 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>n. Subject: Re: VMS in Vegas (Was [OT] Lotteries)& Message-ID: <3E1A2E34.781E35C@fsi.net>   JF Mezei wrote:- > [snip]O > "While Windows caused an aircraft carrier to go down, VMS keeps everything up  > at Victoria's Secret"o > J > And I still think they should get Trojans custom made with some VMS logoM > imprinted on the condoms with the tag line "Always up when you need it" andi4 > distribute those to university students for free.)  C I like this one better: "If you ain't got VMS, you ain't got DICK!"    --   David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 20:42:58 -0600m- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)-. Subject: Re: VMS in Vegas (Was [OT] Lotteries)3 Message-ID: <sAZQpl0$z1vw@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  [ In article <3E1A2DD5.D58CED8E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:0 > Nic Clews wrote: >>   >> "David J. Dachtera" wrote:E >> > >> .H >> > That's exactly what everyone argues canNOT be done: customers valueJ >> > their secrecy, for whatever reason. Some don't want their competitiveJ >> > edge exposed ("Wow! They invested in VMS and Alpha? We'll never catchJ >> > 'em now!"). Others don't want to get laughed right out of the countryH >> > club ("You dumped how much on THAT antiquated, legacy stuff? Are ya >> > nuts??!!"). >> AE >> There is a third. Attempted, failed system replacement caused hugetJ >> embarrassment, and a back-pedal to reinstate the former working systems! >> while "hushing up" the fiasco.  > C > I'd think they WANT to embarrass the failing vendor, for spite ore > revenge at the very least...  I No, the reputation being safeguarded is that of the customer who made the J wrongful decision.  The individuals involved may see an internal effect onJ their career, but giant corporations do not want their vendors making themG appear incompetent.  They have some influence over the eventual winninga vendor's speech.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:10:16 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>. Subject: RE: VMS in Vegas (Was [OT] Lotteries)0 Message-ID: <01C2B5B7.59681070@sulfer.icius.com>  < >In article <3E1A2DD5.D58CED8E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>c >writes: >> Nic Clews wrote:t >>>  >>> "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >>> >  >>> I >>> > That's exactly what everyone argues canNOT be done: customers value.K >>> > their secrecy, for whatever reason. Some don't want their competitive K >>> > edge exposed ("Wow! They invested in VMS and Alpha? We'll never catchhK >>> > 'em now!"). Others don't want to get laughed right out of the countryoI >>> > club ("You dumped how much on THAT antiquated, legacy stuff? Are yay >>> > nuts??!!").d >>> F >>> There is a third. Attempted, failed system replacement caused hugeK >>> embarrassment, and a back-pedal to reinstate the former working systemso" >>> while "hushing up" the fiasco. >> uD >> I'd think they WANT to embarrass the failing vendor, for spite or >> revenge at the very least...a >pJ >No, the reputation being safeguarded is that of the customer who made theK >wrongful decision.  The individuals involved may see an internal effect oniK >their career, but giant corporations do not want their vendors making them1H >appear incompetent.  They have some influence over the eventual winning >vendor's speech.o  H It works both ways. Often the customer will have to sign agreements thatG prevent them from grumbling publicly about problems. Sometimes it's forvE a price break, sometimes it's just "sign or you can't have it". MS do G this a lot, if you actually look at their latest licenses they all bindn@ you against publishing .NET benchmarks, even if they're not .NETH products. It has also been said many times that Sun had an NDA with eBayE over their E10K's, around the time they were having all that downtimesF trouble. I smiled when eBay changed to IBMs, and cited reliability andF uptime as the major factors in that choice. Draw your own conclusions.   Shaneo   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 04:45:58 GMT , From: "Ken Randell" <ken.randell@fortel.com>9 Subject: Re: VMS731_ACRTL-V0100 Release notes [complaint] 5 Message-ID: <aYsS9.7783$1c.5470@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>b  E > This  is in the CRTL kit, but its not a general feature meant to be  visible to allJ > users.  Only a subset of IO functions are covered by the DECC$FD_LOCKING featureRH > switch, so we didn't intend to document this issue for this kit.  (The subset% > reported by an important customer).t  I I appreciate the response, but I am more confused than before.  The way IbJ read it, the release notes indicate that this 'file descriptor' problem isL related to a multi-threaded environment.  OK.  It also implies that this ECOJ is really only a partial fix, as you have indicated that only a 'subset of IO functions are covered'.  H How am I supposed to know which C RTL functions are covered; i.e., whichG functions should I avoid using?  There are multiple C RTL functions foreJ 'doing a read' as described in the release notes.  The release notes implyH that the functions that the JVM uses are covered by this ECO.  Searching* DSNLINK does not point to anything useful.  J I would like to be able to determine that the C RTL functions I'm using inK my code are not (potentially) subject to the same kind of 'random' ACCVIOs,tH which are generally frowned upon in production environments.  Please and
 thank-you.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2003 00:52:14 GMTn# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)Y Subject: Re: Working with Locksi* Message-ID: <avd8bu$3o5$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  _ In article <3E13DEC0.11BDCBF7@pressenter.com>, Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> writes:rI :A lock creates a lock on a "name" of a resource. (sys$enq). But, not thec :resource itself.   G   Locks and lock resource names are generic, arbitrary, and completely aF   unrelated to any particular construct -- though many programmers canE   and do choose to ADD a relationship or to use a particular resource G   name for a particular construct, such a relationship is not required.kD   All lock coordination is based on consistent use of and consistentE   references to the resource name strings, and strictly and solely onlH   the resource name strings.  What the text of the resource name stringsE   might represent -- disks, disk blocks, RMS records, processes, bitsa?   within memory, apples, stars -- is entirely irrelevent to thea8   operations of locking and of the OpenVMS lock manager.  H   If the application programmer decides that the master process within aH   cluster will use the resource name FROG and will accordingly hold thisF   lock exclusively, the lock manager cares not.  The lock manager doesH   not know that FROG represents the master process or an actual frog, orG   a toad that was accidentally substituted by a harried system manager.MH   The lock manager DOES care that only one lock holder can and does hold'   the FROG lock exclusively, of course.y  G   Once I realized that the lock manager was an underlying dependency of-F   the OpenVMS file and record management systems and of other OpenVMS D   components, but had no particular other relationships to the file J   system or to other higher-level components, the organization, operation,:   and use of the lock manager became much clearer (to me).  5 :SO... If I want to manipulate that resources, must IF' :check to see if I have the lock on it?   G   Yes.  Only the programmer knows what the resource names actually meansJ   in the context of the particular application.  The lock manager providesF   the coordination and the sequencing and the interlocks, but only theF   programmer knows what construct (or what resource) is actually being,   coordinated by a particular resource name.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 15:53:33 -0800R. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)4 Subject: Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year)= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0301061553.2e0c7928@posting.google.com>n  T Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote in message news:<3E19951D.1030701@vajhoej.dk>... [...]1: > Smart people have found out that it is better to play on > numbers close to each other !  > : > Ofcourse every combination has the exact same probablity< > of winning, but most people that pick their numbers manual> > pick numbers almost equally spaced over the range. Therefore< > if numbers close to each other are picked, then there will4 > be fewer rigth combinations meaning higher prizes. >  > :-)s >  > Arne  C Hell, you may as well pick 1 2 3 4 5 ... They're close together and2C who else is going to pick this combo? Plus, it's easier to check if? you won.  F "But wait", some might say, "that'll never come up!". But it's just as# likely as any other set of numbers.n   &-)n   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:23:22 -0600s1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o4 Subject: Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year)' Message-ID: <3E1A2C0A.995BCEC9@fsi.net>u   Arne Vajhj wrote: >  > ualski wrote:eQ > > Does anyone know what sorts of reviews of the system and application software:M > > were required of the winner? (of the contract!). Over in comp.risks thereiV > > was some discussion of electronic voting machines that are essentially magic boxesU > > because the vendor prohibited the customer from "looking inside," thereby forcingbR > > the customer to trust the machines to work properly. The risk is obvious thereU > > and without examining the source code and possibly parts of the operating system,n0 > > lotteries face problems of a similar nature. >  > I can not go into specifics. > 7 > But I can assure you that the security around Camelotx  > and its systems are very high.  5 "Camelot" - that's where one goes to buy a camel, eh?i   -- a David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/u   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 20:39:49 -0600e- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen))4 Subject: Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year)3 Message-ID: <ZpSXOFBNfkfA@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  [ In article <3E1A2C0A.995BCEC9@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:A > Arne Vajhj wrote:   >> I can not go into specifics.A >> B8 >> But I can assure you that the security around Camelot! >> and its systems are very high.  > 7 > "Camelot" - that's where one goes to buy a camel, eh?a  6 No, that is where one goes to buy a chance on a camel.  C In addition to the weekly Arabian opportunities, there is a monthlyo Sopwith chance.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 20:49:59 -0600n@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.spamfree.net>4 Subject: Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year)6 Message-ID: <3E1A4057.64F7F412@earthlink.spamfree.net>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3E1A2C0A.995BCEC9@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:- > > Arne Vajhj wrote: > ! > >> I can not go into specifics.r > >>: > >> But I can assure you that the security around Camelot# > >> and its systems are very high.B > >C9 > > "Camelot" - that's where one goes to buy a camel, eh?o > 8 > No, that is where one goes to buy a chance on a camel. > E > In addition to the weekly Arabian opportunities, there is a monthlyc > Sopwith chance.    Ah - a CameLottery. Got it...p   -- m David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jan 2003 21:49:28 -0600w- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)gO Subject: [OT} email spamfighting (was: Is there a hobbyist program for other HPa3 Message-ID: <tXHPWEsjQ2xs@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <01C2B5B7.23C59870@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:B > David J. Dachtera wrote: > <Big Snip>1 >>I don't want the other address to get "loose in I >>the wild". So, I'll go back to my Earthlink address and I'll have to belI >>vigilant for stuff that ends up among the spam that escapes Earthlink'sC >>spamtraps. > <End snip> > I > There's a nice little piece of shareware out there called "mailwasher".PC > If you're using POP3, mailwasher will let you preview mail beforerF > downloading it, and let you bounce it as if your account didn't even > exist.  C Please don't annoy joe-job victims by sending them bounces of emailiB they did not transmit.  If it is spam there is a strong likelyhoodB the "From:" address is falsified, and spammers get those addressesC from the same lists they get their other victim's addresses.  WhilevB it _might_ be possible for a human to guess pretty well which onesC might really represent the spammer, I think that is well beyond the  capability of an automaton.c   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.013 ************************and if possible I'd have a9 > lookup program so it could be stored in encrypted form.u  J Well, the file will be protected so that only the application username hasF access to it. The only "user mode" access will be through a privilegedM shareable image. In the future I may consider encrypting the passwords. But IeL just want to get it going in a more or less productized form, and then basedN on u|ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ    |ժ     }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    	}ժ    
}ժ    }ժ    }ժ    
}ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ     }ժ    !}ժ    "}ժ    #}ժ    $}ժ    %}ժ    &}ժ    '}ժ    (}ժ    )}ժ    *}ժ    +}ժ    ,}ժ    -}ժ    .}ժ    /}ժ    0}ժ    1}ժ    2}ժ    3}ժ    4}ժ    5}ժ    6}ժ    7}ժ    8}ժ    9}ժ    :}ժ    ;}ժ    <}ժ    =}ժ    >}ժ    ?}ժ    @}ժ    A}ժ    B}ժ    C}ժ    D}ժ    E}ժ    F}ժ    G}ժ    H}ժ    I}ժ    J}ժ    K}ժ    L}ժ    M}ժ    N}ժ    O}ժ    P}ժ    Q}ժ    R}ժ    S}ժ    T}ժ    U}ժ    V}ժ    W}ժ    X}ժ    Y}ժ    Z}ժ    [}ժ    \}ժ    ]}ժ    ^}ժ    _}ժ    `}ժ    a}ժ    b}ժ    c}ժ    d}ժ    e}ժ    f}ժ    g}ժ    h}ժ    i}ժ    j}ժ    k}ժ    l}ժ    m}ժ    n}ժ    o}ժ    p}ժ    q}ժ    r}ժ    s}ժ    t}ժ    u}ժ    v}ժ    w}ժ    x}ժ    y}ժ    z}ժ    {}ժ    |}ժ    }}ժ    ~}ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    }ժ    