0 INFO-VAX	Sun, 12 Jan 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 23      Contents: Re: Boot Contest change  Capturing broadcast messages Experience with VS80/DLT1?3 FA: Digital DEC VAX VT220 Terminal w/LK201 Keyboard 7 Re: How can I read files from a directory(VMS) using C? ) Re: How to use Mozilla V1.0 for news/mail ) Re: How to use Mozilla V1.0 for news/mail ) Re: How to use Mozilla V1.0 for news/mail ) Re: How to use Mozilla V1.0 for news/mail = Re: HSG-80 firmware, version 8.7-1F... anybody installed yet? = Re: HSG-80 firmware, version 8.7-1F... anybody installed yet? + Re: Independent VMS crash analysis service.  Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use?# Re: Memo:  RE:  Boot Contest change  Microvax Floating point  Re: Microvax Floating point  Re: Microvax Floating point  Re: Microvax Floating point " Re: New Marvel machines? New news?$ Re: Software distribution technology" Re: Unable to access Telnet or FTP! Re: unknown Qbus SCSI controller? ? Re: VAX boot time drivers, was: Re: JF and backporting features ? Re: VAX boot time drivers, was: Re: JF and backporting features ? Re: VAX boot time drivers, was: Re: JF and backporting features 1 Re: VT220/320 Terminal emulator for Linux client? + Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year) + Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year) + Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year) + Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 11 Jan 03 23:10:01 +0100) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)   Subject: Re: Boot Contest change) Message-ID: <u8yFfKHQ44$$@elias.decus.ch>   c In article <Igc+6rVwGV7u@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: X > In article <9JAN200318594172@gerg.tamu.edu>, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes: > F >> Theoretically I suppose your VMS system could dual boot to Windows, > @ > Just as in theory a drive can dual boot VAX VMS and Alpha VMS.A > That is not supported by the vendor of either operating system.  > D >> but in such a case the drive is not likely to be accessable as itE >> probably doesn't have a partiton table and such to allow access to A >> the FAT data in the way the Windows normally does such things.  > < > I believe it will have the data, but the result is no more= > (or no less) hazardous than having separate VMS and Windows ! > boot disks on the same machine.   F Having seen the way that W2K will put a "harmless footprint" on a dataF disk (one other than the boot disk), I would not put my trust too far.  E VMS (and to the best of my knowledge Unix/Linux) doesn't even look at E non-system disks unless you tell it to. Windows OTOH assumes they are  all there to play with.    --  
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 23:31:47 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>% Subject: Capturing broadcast messages / Message-ID: <3E20E1A0.CBEF9989@vl.videotron.ca>   G What is the method for an application (character cell or decwindows) to 7 capture a broadcast message  (by an AST for instance) ?   J For instance, an application who would like to be notified when a new mail" message is received for that user.  - (Not talking about capturing opcom messages).   H For character cell, one can $ASSIGn a channel to TT: with a mailbox that receives broadcast messages.  M But what about for a decwindows application ? Is there a way to receive those * broadcast messages destined for the user ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 00:42:56 +0100 ? From: "Bo Hermanson" <informentor.hermanson@mailbox.swipnet.se> # Subject: Experience with VS80/DLT1? 5 Message-ID: <ZU1U9.1875$EG4.1451@nntpserver.swip.net>   
 Hi  Everyone,   J Regarding to AlphaServer option list, the VS80/DLT1 Tape drives (scsi) are not supported today under VMS.I The low end /performing TZ88 is going away and the alternatives TZ89/TZ90 " are far to expensive to my pocket.  J It should be interesting if anyone in this conference has tried to use theJ cheaper VS80/DLT1 tape drives and share his/hers backup experience in thisL topic.Any drawback with this drives compared to ordinary DLT/AIT technology?  - Any reason why they shouldn't work under VMS?  Future support for this drives?    Thanks in advance  Bo   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 04:55:00 GMT 9 From: "Headley Sappleton" <headley.sappleton@verizon.net> < Subject: FA: Digital DEC VAX VT220 Terminal w/LK201 Keyboard5 Message-ID: <Ey6U9.7013$%V.5445@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>   / Digital DEC VAX VT220 Terminal w/LK201 Keyboard  Item number: 2300199667  Quantity:     1  Start price:  $24.95 Buy It Now price:  $39.95 "  End date:  Jan-17-03 19:42:56 PST  L http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2300199667&ssPageName=ADM E:B:LC:US:1    ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jan 03 23:39:11 +0100) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) @ Subject: Re: How can I read files from a directory(VMS) using C?) Message-ID: <fnAKQR7Mcp8o@elias.decus.ch>   i In article <tdku1vg6jaalu22n46qufa9gio7apcjkcr@4ax.com>, Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> writes: F > On 9 Jan 2003 20:44:57 -0600, in comp.lang.c , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net > (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > b >>In article <avl5km$l8m$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>, euphoria@u.washington.edu (E. Gibbons) writes: >>> 8 >>> You should really read the FAQ for this group (clc): >>> 1 >>>     http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html  >>< >>I am 99% certain that for jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca, >>"this group" is comp.os.vms,   > F > In that case, he (or some later poster) should not have crossposted.D > But what does it matter what he thinks? I'm reading _this_ post in > CLC. So _this_ group is CLC.   > # >>which certainly does not consider * >>VMS-specific mechanisms to be off-topic. > < > Good. the SYS$ function set springs to mind in that case.  >  >  > --   > Mark McIntyre 5 > CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html> L > CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc.html> --  
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jan 03 23:52:14 +0100) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) 2 Subject: Re: How to use Mozilla V1.0 for news/mail) Message-ID: <heSzLGpU3sev@elias.decus.ch>   e In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-FJZwNEGPPIXm@localhost>, djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes: F > On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:24:08 UTC,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >  > <Big snip> > I >> I will continue to use VMS mail for mail and Madgoat Newsrdr for news. G >> I'm generally happy with where I can go with Netscape 3.03 and, if I I >> can't go somewhere on the net with Netscape 3.03, then it wasn't worth 
 >> the trip.   >>  H >> I simply want to see this Mozilla thing work despite the fact that itI >> is the single most bloated gluttonous piece of software I have instal- H >> led on any VMS box.  I do not have any ambitions to replace VMS mail,H >> Madgoat Newsrdr or Netscape 3.03 with it... at least, not until I canI >> see the product's display appear in less time time than it takes me to , >> polish off the morning's pot of coffee.   > D > I see that you resolved the X-Display problem you were having the 3 > first time you tried Mozilla. What was the cause?  > B > w.r.t. bloat - I tried the OS/2 version - big, slow loading and C > nothing that comes to mind as a reason for changing. I still use  9 > Netscape and/or Opera under OS/2 and Opera on WinDoze.   > D I don't see much reason to change either. I did try last March on myL 512MB PWS 600 at home. It was not only dog slow, but suffered from the lousyJ text editor/compose window complaint that I learnt today is finally fixed.  I At work I am running out of memory as it is on my XP900, so when I do run C Mozilla, it's from a 4GB 4100, fast disks, the lot. Still dog slow.    --  
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 23:25:10 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")2 Subject: Re: How to use Mozilla V1.0 for news/mail6 Message-ID: <00A19D0E.17B693AF@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  U In article <heSzLGpU3sev@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:  >>  E >I don't see much reason to change either. I did try last March on my M >512MB PWS 600 at home. It was not only dog slow, but suffered from the lousy K >text editor/compose window complaint that I learnt today is finally fixed.  > J >At work I am running out of memory as it is on my XP900, so when I do runD >Mozilla, it's from a 4GB 4100, fast disks, the lot. Still dog slow.  N I've noticed a distinct speed improvement in Mozilla 1.3alpha.  (533mhz nonameN board EV56 256mb, VMS 7.2-2).  I find this largely adequate.  (Connection over DSL is pretty good.)   -- Alan   O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025 O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:21:56 -0600 ( From: Rich Jordan <duodec@speakeasy.net>2 Subject: Re: How to use Mozilla V1.0 for news/mail1 Message-ID: <mQWdnSQUAv53Xr2jXTWcoQ@giganews.com>   * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:W > In article <heSzLGpU3sev@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:  > F >>I don't see much reason to change either. I did try last March on myN >>512MB PWS 600 at home. It was not only dog slow, but suffered from the lousyL >>text editor/compose window complaint that I learnt today is finally fixed. >>K >>At work I am running out of memory as it is on my XP900, so when I do run E >>Mozilla, it's from a 4GB 4100, fast disks, the lot. Still dog slow.  >  > P > I've noticed a distinct speed improvement in Mozilla 1.3alpha.  (533mhz nonameP > board EV56 256mb, VMS 7.2-2).  I find this largely adequate.  (Connection over > DSL is pretty good.) > 	 > -- Alan  > Q > =============================================================================== 2 >  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUO >  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 O >  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025 Q > ===============================================================================  > I Mozilla 1.2.1 on a PWS600au, 1GB RAM, Powerstorm 4D20, is adequate.  Its  F as at least as fast as exploder 4.01sp2 was on an AS200-4/233 running E Alpha NT, faster in some cases with pages having more 'modern' (read  I obese) rendering requirements.  I did bump up the uaf parameters per the  H release notes, and Java performance frankly sucks.  Works fine for news  and mail, no losses so far.    Rich   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jan 03 03:14:27 +0100) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) 2 Subject: Re: How to use Mozilla V1.0 for news/mail) Message-ID: <NWaMJWZC8Nyz@elias.decus.ch>    In article <00A19D0E.17B693AF@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes: W > In article <heSzLGpU3sev@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:  >>> F >>I don't see much reason to change either. I did try last March on myN >>512MB PWS 600 at home. It was not only dog slow, but suffered from the lousyL >>text editor/compose window complaint that I learnt today is finally fixed. >>K >>At work I am running out of memory as it is on my XP900, so when I do run E >>Mozilla, it's from a 4GB 4100, fast disks, the lot. Still dog slow.  > P > I've noticed a distinct speed improvement in Mozilla 1.3alpha.  (533mhz nonameP > board EV56 256mb, VMS 7.2-2).  I find this largely adequate.  (Connection over > DSL is pretty good.) >   0 Thanks for the pointer. I'll give it another go.  @ (on the DSL front at home, my ISP & telco seem to have got theirC act together - whereas a few months ago I suspected "the other end" E to be slow, I now find that I can often get the advertized bandwidth)    --  
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:29:56 GMT . From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)F Subject: Re: HSG-80 firmware, version 8.7-1F... anybody installed yet?5 Message-ID: <89%T9.117552$Gg2.1118614@news.chello.at>   ^ In article <OF960F13FD.564FBACC-ON85256CA8.006DB9C4@metso.com>, norm.raphael@metso.com writes:< >I was just talking to HP services and when I mentioned 8.7F >(OpenVMScluster) 3 >the comment was do not upgrade if 8.6F is working.   E I haven't dealt with HP services yet, but my previous experience was, G that this kind of statements are very common and not neccessarily based G on knowledge of problems. I found that many service employees have this + "don't touch a running system" mentality...    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:16:21 -0500 ' From: Stuart Fuller <stufuller@usa.net> F Subject: Re: HSG-80 firmware, version 8.7-1F... anybody installed yet?0 Message-ID: <l35qva.9mi.ln@dadsys2.fuller.local>   Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:  A > In article <OF960F13FD.564FBACC-ON85256CA8.006DB9C4@metso.com>,   > norm.raphael@metso.com writes:= >>I was just talking to HP services and when I mentioned 8.7F  >>(OpenVMScluster)4 >>the comment was do not upgrade if 8.6F is working. > G > I haven't dealt with HP services yet, but my previous experience was, I > that this kind of statements are very common and not neccessarily based I > on knowledge of problems. I found that many service employees have this - > "don't touch a running system" mentality...  >   . That's partly because we're too busy as it is.           Stu    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:27:14 +0000 ) From: Antonio Carlini <arcarlini@iee.org> 4 Subject: Re: Independent VMS crash analysis service.$ Message-ID: <3E207E22.90301@iee.org>   Roy Omond wrote:G > Yes, there is such a service in the UK, and yes, you would definitely F > have competition.  In addition, your competition already offers bothC > hardware support and "across the board" VMS support.  And they're C > already much cheaper than direct HP/Compaq/DEC support.  And they B > have plenty of experience (in some cases with more than 22 years > of VMS experience).   8 But does this service make enough money to live on or is it just a sideline?   9 Is there really much of a market for crash dump analysis? 8 I, too, used to spend time analysing dumps as part of my9 work with DEC, but the end goal was to fix the customer's 3 problem. Third party services  cannot realistically 
 provide this.   5 OTOH if there is a market, let me know, I'd certainly 2 be interested in giving it a whirl (and I'll throw/ in DECnis dump analysis for good measure :-) ).    Antonio    arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:43:39 GMT - From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? & Message-ID: <H8KEsr.59F@world.std.com>  ' In article <3E121566.245A5D6B@fsi.net>, 0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  G > When I first started to look at NetBSD some years ago, I corresponded ? > with a fellow who never could quite understand that since the I > installation instructions are included in the man pages, you have to do I > the install and unpack the manpages before you can unpack the man pages H > and do the install. That is, he never quite grasped that to unpack the0 > man pages you must first unpack the man pages.  F What?!  There aren't any installation instructions in the man pages ofI NetBSD.  You either download NetBSD from the net, or you can buy a CD-ROM J of it.  In either case, the installation instructions are provided as fileE at the base directory of the platform install; be it online or on the  CD-ROM.      For example:2   ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-1.6/i386/  
 Silliness.   -brian.  --  F --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----H This counter is [6,177,399,753] times as pointless as a real one.  -- K.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:10:03 GMT - From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? & Message-ID: <H8KG0r.JKK@world.std.com>  5 In article <ausq49$a1jqa$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, ) Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:   A > Perhaps in the free software world, but I doubt that any of the @ > real commercial Emacs's are based on it as opposed to the muchA > earlier PD version that resulted in all this GNU garbage in the D > first place.  The Emacs that Gnu Emacs was based on wasn't startedD > until 1984.  The Gnu Manifesto wasn't published until 1985 and theD > FSF and Gnu Project followed that.  I had already been using EMACSC > since at least 1980.  Don't give Stallman any more credit than he  > deserves. (which is none)   F Why would you say that?  Stallman /did/ write the original version of  EMACS in TECO under ITS.   -brian.  --  F --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----H This counter is [6,177,399,753] times as pointless as a real one.  -- K.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 21:45:24 GMT - From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? & Message-ID: <H8KKFo.Ju7@world.std.com>  3 In article <5rVtDkhovyj6@eisner.encompasserve.org>, . Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:  D > I have never known (until your post) of _any_ computer environmentD > where "press the F1 key" was useful.  In fact, unless you mean theG > PF1 key, the keyboard I use 50% of the time for VMS (from a Macintosh G > to access remote VMS systems over the Internet) does not _have_ an F1  > key.  A Actually, now that I'm looking, my iMac running OS-X (a Unix with H NEXTSTEP and BSD heritage) at work has a "help" key.  When I press it, aD very useful "Mac Help" window pops up.  I reminds me somewhat of the* Digital Librarian help system on the NeXT.  B So the obvious lesson here is that you should all GET A MACINTOSH!   -brian.  --  F --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----H This counter is [6,177,399,753] times as pointless as a real one.  -- K.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:47:53 GMT - From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? & Message-ID: <H8KnBt.GM7@world.std.com>  / In article <v1a7te6tq748f4@corp.supernews.com>, " Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> wrote:+ > Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:   O > :> yes if you give them all the keys.  Problem is on UNIX there's only 1 or 2 P > :> keys, on vms dozens, so it's "easier" on UNIX to accidentally give away all > :> the keys. > G > : Not sure what you mean by "keys". If you mean user privilege level, G > : under unix there really are only two.  root and users.  If you mean  > - > I'm pretty sure he meant root vs. non-root.  > F > But that neglects the possible use of setuid to give users access toF > only some specific actions as root.  While that's not as flexible asE > the large # of privilege bits VMS supports, it certainly gives you   > more than 1 or 2 "keys."  ? It also neglects "setgid" programs which allow for even greater G flexibility.  So there are roughly three levels of executable privilege G access on Unix--lets say two and a half.  Additionally, as Bill pointed I out, there are quite few configurable "system limits" that can be imposed J on users' processes.  Beyond that, there are also file system quotas which can be imposed.   J I don't think the model adopted (or rather that which evolved) for Unix isG the best in the world.  Originally, Unix was designed for small systems G with very constrained resources; this certainly shows in some lingering H aspects of its design.  For example, the limitations of file permissionsH being controlled by the three levels of "user", "group", and "other".  IJ believe all modern Unix systems do offer support for proper ACLs, but it's@ not a standard (and certainly not commonly used) part of the OS.  G To be honest though, in my 12 (gah!) years as a Unix admin, I've always G managed to work within the "user-group-other" framework, even if it did H require some contortions at times.  It's not ideal and I won't defend itF beyond saying that you can do a lot with it if you're a competent UnixH sysadmin.  If anyone has looked at all at how VMS does the same sorts ofE things, it's obvious that the VMS developers did a much better job of - thinking their design through from the start.   F I am a bit bothered by a lot of the misinformation, or poorly informedE statements, and maligned views of many of the VMS supporters here put C forth about Unix.  It is a VMS newsgroup though; I guess it's to be I expected.  I'm just as likely to slam Microsoft Windows solutions in Unix F discussion groups, but even I'll admit that those solutions have theirI advantages in certain situations.  And I'm happy as long as I get to stay J the hell away from those situations, which so far has been fairly easy for	 me to do.    -brian.  --  F --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----H This counter is [6,177,399,753] times as pointless as a real one.  -- K.   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jan 03 22:46:56 +0100) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) , Subject: Re: Memo:  RE:  Boot Contest change) Message-ID: <gqceKJPMGsIj@elias.decus.ch>   b In article <3E1DC754.36D11BF6@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:$ > I just realised the irony of this. > H > The boot contest is reserved to those who are not friends with the VMSP > engineers (thus no insider information). This means that for the few of us whoE > qualify, this is just a random date since we have no information on  > probabilities etc etc. >  > L > The VMS engineers convinced Sue not to buy any lottery tickets because you% > have no chance to win in a lottery.  >  > 4 > Meanwhile, Sue is inciting us to play a lottery... >   - Less than 49 days until the end of Feb now...    --  
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:02:08 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>  Subject: Microvax Floating point/ Message-ID: <3E206A2C.6CB41F78@vl.videotron.ca>    Theroretical question.  H Floating point operations on Microvax machines are emulated by software,	 correct ?   I *conceptually* and forgetting any need to be compatible with other vaxes, L wouldn't it be possible to just change the shareable images (it is uvmrtl orJ something like that ?) so that they would use IEEE format floating point ?  M Are are there still hardware limitations that truly tie the microvaxen to the  vax floating point format ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 00:08:41 +0100 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>$ Subject: Re: Microvax Floating point) Message-ID: <3E20A3F9.2060206@vajhoej.dk>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Theroretical question. > J > Floating point operations on Microvax machines are emulated by software, > correct ?    No.   0 Not at all MicroVAX'es and not all instructions.  2 I made some tests for this more than a decade ago. You can see the results at: (    http://www.vajhoej.dk/anonymous/INST/  K > *conceptually* and forgetting any need to be compatible with other vaxes, N > wouldn't it be possible to just change the shareable images (it is uvmrtl orL > something like that ?) so that they would use IEEE format floating point ? > O > Are are there still hardware limitations that truly tie the microvaxen to the  > vax floating point format ?   ? As I recall it (but it is so many years ago), then there were a A coorperation between microcode instruction decoding and macrocode 
 emulation.  3 But I do not think it will work anyway - see above.    Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 23:34:14 GMT - From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) $ Subject: Re: Microvax Floating point& Message-ID: <H8KpH2.DEv@world.std.com>  O In article <3E20A3F9.2060206@vajhoej.dk>, Arne Vajhj  <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:  > JF Mezei wrote:    > > Theroretical question. > > L > > Floating point operations on Microvax machines are emulated by software,
 > > correct ?  >  > No.  > 2 > Not at all MicroVAX'es and not all instructions. > 4 > I made some tests for this more than a decade ago. > You can see the results at: * >    http://www.vajhoej.dk/anonymous/INST/  I And for those who aren't inclined to take the empirical approach, there's F also the VAX Architecture Reference Manual.  A relevant excerpt can be; found here: http://simh.trailing-edge.com/docs/vax_proc.txt   I The most sensible option, IMO, for supporting IEEE FP on the VAX would be J to create a software library against which apps requiring IEEE FP could be	 compiled.    -brian.  --  F --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----H This counter is [6,177,399,753] times as pointless as a real one.  -- K.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 23:50:16 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG$ Subject: Re: Microvax Floating point0 Message-ID: <00A19D2A.BF6BB9AC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  b In article <3E206A2C.6CB41F78@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: >Theroretical question.  > I >Floating point operations on Microvax machines are emulated by software, 
 >correct ? > J >*conceptually* and forgetting any need to be compatible with other vaxes,M >wouldn't it be possible to just change the shareable images (it is uvmrtl or K >something like that ?) so that they would use IEEE format floating point ?  > N >Are are there still hardware limitations that truly tie the microvaxen to the >vax floating point format ?  K The subsetting rules for arithmetic instructions divided the floating point K instructions into groups based upon the data types: F_floating, D_floating, L G_floating, and H_floating.  Subset rules require all instruction that oper-J ate on data type be present if a data type is included.  There can be *NO*L single omissions of an instruction in a given group.  If a group is omitted,K a reserved-instruction fault is generated.  The exception is handled via an  emulation routine in this case.   K I doubt very much that there was an implementation that didn't contain at a . bare minimum at least one of these data types.  L It's NOT UVMTHRTL or even MTHRTL that provides this enmulation.  InstructionJ emulation is provided by (post V5.0) an executive image called FPEMUL.EXE.  I I wouldn't diddle about with trying to change the emulation of native VAX K floating point types.  Too many hidden gotchas are certain to arise because # something in VMS depends upon this.   J You could, however, define your own instruction emulation for your own op-J codes.  You'd write code to handle the customer reserved instruction faultJ generated by the XFC instruction.  I did this a long time ago as a articleI on instruction emulation for the DJS.  Unfortunately, DSJ was sold before J the article made it to press.  I just booted an old machine and I have theJ demo code if you're interested.  I wrote a simple bit of code which imple-H mented an XCHGR instruction (XOR,XOR,XOR) with .OPDEF XCHGR ^X69FC,ML,ML   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jan 03 21:59:35 +0100) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) + Subject: Re: New Marvel machines? New news? ) Message-ID: <eBDxwZ911pPk@elias.decus.ch>   b In article <3E1CCB3D.691E0C61@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:5 >> > LOL at the thought of buying a GS1280 online :-)  > P > At Yulara (the village next to Uluru (Ayers' Rock) in Australia, the local carN > rental charges expensive rates. You can go next door at the library, connectO > to the internet, reserve/book the car you discussed with the rental car folks M > on-line and save a lot of money. You then walk back to the car rental , and 5 > you have your confirmed reservbation at lower rate.  >   E That sounds a lot like the trick I discovered in the mid '80s. I flew K into Heathrow London and booked a hotel room for the night from the tourist E office there. 27 pounds IIRC, including breakfast, for a double room.   ? I called in to the  same hotel a month later, only to be asked  A nearly double the price for a single, with breakfast as an extra.   B Answer? I took their free bus to Heathrow, presented myself at theH desk in the arrivals hall, and got another cheap deal in another equally) good (well, good for a bland one?) hotel.      H > I can see a scenario where you might get all the information about theK > wildfire/marvel from a sales humanoid who would then tell you that if you M > order on the web, you get an extra X5 off and faster delivery because order ( > goes tdirect to manufacturing etc etc.  F And at least you don't get forced to eat in what the salesdroid thinks is a decent restaurant :-)   --  
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 00:18:10 +0100 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>- Subject: Re: Software distribution technology ) Message-ID: <3E20A632.4040007@vajhoej.dk>    JF Mezei wrote: O > Customer fills out web form. Email is sent back to him with details on how to P > download the sofware. At the same time, an account is created on a VMS machineN > allowing FTP access. In his SYS$LOGIN, alias entries to the software package8 > he is allowed to download are added (set file /enter). > O > This way, he can come back to download the software again if needed. If a new N > version comes out, one can add a new entry to the sys$logins to point to theM > new version of the software (giving him access tothe old and new versions).  >  > How workable would that be ? > N > My goal would be to better track who uses my software (it would be freeware)H > so that I could also send email announcements of new versions etc etc. > L > Would makin software available via non-anonymous FTP be a big problems forH > some folks whose corporate infrastructure may allow HTTP but not FTP ?  % I think it is a non optimal approach.    Several reasons:5    - [as you say] FTP is not as unproblematic as HTTP       through firewalls/proxiesA    - many users may not even know how to specifiy the username in       a FTP URL#    - security issues on your server =    - the significant overhead per user of creating a username     etc.etc.   $ I would go for the two alternatives:   1)  The "coorperative" approach <        people register in a form and get an email containing-        the download URL which is a normal URL =        you expects users to be gentlemen and not find the URL         otherwise   2)  The "enhanced" approach <        people register in a form and get an email containing?        a URL with f.ex. 128 bit random integer this URL is also >        registered in a database as being valid and may have an        expiration date on ?        when users activate that URL a script is run and the key @        is validated against the databae and only if it is valid,         then the file is returned   3)  The "enforcing" approach9         people has to create and account and login before 9         they can download (the download script checks the ?         "session") [this requires a some of the infrastructure]    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:32:55 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>+ Subject: Re: Unable to access Telnet or FTP / Message-ID: <3E206354.5ACCA08A@vl.videotron.ca>   
 Ram wrote:D > I have sent an email to the process.com guys asking for the TCP/IPG > stacks. Once I get this I will change the systems to use DHCP from my  > Firewall and then try.  N The more recent version of TCPIP Services support DHCP client on the VMS side.  L But if you have a router, why would you want to be bothered with DHCP clientK for VMS ? The router negotiates the DHCP lease with your ISP and makes that  totally transparent to you.A   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jan 2003 16:26:57 -08000 From: chris_doran@postmaster.co.uk (Chris Doran)* Subject: Re: unknown Qbus SCSI controller?= Message-ID: <948f0720.0301111626.59f2dca8@posting.google.com>o  b Dennis Grevenstein <dennis@pcde.inka.de> wrote in message news:<3E202E5C.6068A2F0@pcde.inka.de>... > Hi,a > 1 > I've just found two unknown Dilog Qbus boards. o< > They are both from 1987 and there is "SQ7" writen on them.? > google gives some hints that these might be SCSI controllers,?! > but maybe only for tape drives.e > Can anybody tell me more?   @ Try http://www.dilog.com/qbus which even has a data sheet on theB SQ739. A few other Dilog SQ7xx SCSI boards are listed on the Field> Guide at http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt viz:-  3 SQ703A  Q   Dilog SCSI tape adapter. Emulates TMSCP   3 SQ706A  Q   Dilog SCSI disk adapter. Emulates MSCP.t  1 SQ713A  Q   Dilog SCSI differential tape adapter.              Emulates TMSCP  7 SQ706   Q   Dilog SCSI disk controller for Ramstor 5150v  ; SQ739   Q   Dilog disk/tape adapter. Emulates MSCP & TMSCP.n8             7 x SCSI devices. Replaces SQ703A and SQ706A  F Finally, a couple of photos were available on the web at one time, but# no response when I just tried them:    SCSI Disk - Dilog_SQ706_Rev_C D http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/dec/Dilog_SQ706_Rev_C_.jpg SCSI Disk - Dilog_SQ706A_Rev_DE http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/dec/Dilog_SQ706A_Rev_D_.jpgR   Chriso   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:04:28 -0400+0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>H Subject: Re: VAX boot time drivers, was: Re: JF and backporting features/ Message-ID: <3E205CAC.9A965F4D@vl.videotron.ca>:   Simon Clubley wrote:O > No. There is a specific point during the VMS boot sequence on VAX when devicerL > I/O operations are transferred by VMS from the VMB boot drivers to the VMS > ones.e  G Is it therefore correct to state that early in the boot sequence, the 6bN byte-SCSI-command driver is replaced by whatever driver VMS supplies, and thatA in the case of recent VMS versions, this means a 10 byte driver ?c  N IF the above is correct, would it also be correct to state that you could haveI a 200 gig drive, provided a small number of early boot files were located  inside the 1 gig space  ?g    N IF the above is correct, would it also be correct to state that if you were toJ restore those files first, and then do a BACKUP/NOREPLACE of the rest, youE would be assured that those files are located below the 1 gig limit ?l  L Do the VMS 10 byte drivers take over early enough that one would not have toN worry about placement of the indexf.sys and other control files, which, if notL mistaken, are located in the middle of the drive, which would mean that in aO 20,000 gig drive, those files would be located a tad over the one 1 gig limit ?o   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 23:27:54 +0000w+ From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk>SH Subject: Re: VAX boot time drivers, was: Re: JF and backporting features8 Message-ID: <ii912vsojokpif1csukk5441r5a5omdtk6@4ax.com>  , On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:04:28 -0400, JF Mezei( <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:   >Simon Clubley wrote:aP >> No. There is a specific point during the VMS boot sequence on VAX when deviceM >> I/O operations are transferred by VMS from the VMB boot drivers to the VMSs >> ones. >-H >Is it therefore correct to state that early in the boot sequence, the 6O >byte-SCSI-command driver is replaced by whatever driver VMS supplies, and thatiB >in the case of recent VMS versions, this means a 10 byte driver ?  J Yes.  Otherwise how would you access any disk over 1Gb as a data volume on such machines ?a  O >IF the above is correct, would it also be correct to state that you could havetJ >a 200 gig drive, provided a small number of early boot files were located >inside the 1 gig space  ?  K Yes.  But don't expect the VMS engineers to identify them with any promisesi$ you won't get into trouble one day !  O >IF the above is correct, would it also be correct to state that if you were tosK >restore those files first, and then do a BACKUP/NOREPLACE of the rest, youhF >would be assured that those files are located below the 1 gig limit ?  C No assurances, but likely.  INIT the disk first though (see below).r  M >Do the VMS 10 byte drivers take over early enough that one would not have to-O >worry about placement of the indexf.sys and other control files, which, if notwM >mistaken, are located in the middle of the drive, which would mean that in a.P >20,000 gig drive, those files would be located a tad over the one 1 gig limit ?  H As WRITEBOOT is not required, the boot drivers must know how to walk theI index file structure.  So, you would need to be sure a fair amount of themK [SYSn...] tree was contained in the first 1Gb.  In practice, INDEXF.SYS hasmK its first real extent, beyond the initial handful of headers, in the middleaK of the disk by default.  You can INIT/INDEX=BEGIN to force it to the start.y  J You're really out on your own with such a configuration.  If you seriouslyK wanted to use a 200Gb disk, search out and invest in a better class of Vax.1I For workstations, any of the 4000 range would be better, while the faster>K Microvax 3100s also did not have the 1Gb system disk limitation.  All thesetJ machines had SCSI controllers which were no great shakes even in their dayE (albeit fairly reliable), and would be yet a further handicap on disk : performance.  You need to move to Alpha to get better i/o.     	John    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:13:06 -0400S0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>H Subject: Re: VAX boot time drivers, was: Re: JF and backporting features/ Message-ID: <3E20A4FC.AC60F600@vl.videotron.ca>e   John Laird wrote: L > Yes.  Otherwise how would you access any disk over 1Gb as a data volume on > such machines ?.  N I was thinking about the possibility that the system disk would continue to beG mounted with the boot drivers (6 bytes) and only other drived would getmL mounted with the VMS drivers. But if VMS essentially remounts the drive with< its own drivers, it makes the limitation much more workable.  M > Yes.  But don't expect the VMS engineers to identify them with any promisese& > you won't get into trouble one day !  L Seeing that I am not friends with the engineers :-), perhaps they would haveG no problem giving me the info knowing that one day I would have lots ofI problems ... :-)  L > You're really out on your own with such a configuration.  If you seriouslyM > wanted to use a 200Gb disk, search out and invest in a better class of Vax.l  M I am thinking in terms of the day my 1 gig drive fails. I know I could managemN with a 4-10 gig drive if I do things carefully. (for instance, having a backup  of the SY0 and VMS$COMMON trees)   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jan 2003 20:14:46 GMT/ From: Thomas Dickey <dickey@saltmine.radix.net>l: Subject: Re: VT220/320 Terminal emulator for Linux client?* Message-ID: <avptvm$l13$1@news1.radix.net>   pfr <preilly@mail.com> wrote:a0 > On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 05:01:32 +0000, pfr wrote:  M >> Can anyone reccomend a good free terminal emulator for a Linux client when H >> connecting to a Vax?  TeraTerm has worked well when connecting from aI >> Windows client to a Vax, but the standard telnet client in Linux seemsz  >> only able to emulate a VT100. >> a
 >> Thanks,  4 > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/  C > On the Freeware50 CD, there is a DECxterm, which works very well.i  A not exactly: it only overrides some of the function-key settings.r  : If the only aspect that's important for "vt220" is lots ofK function keys, there's that - as well as a few other scripts to remap keys.   H But XFree86 xterm already sends appropriate sequences for vt220 functionI keys, as well as recognizes the extra escape sequences that a vt220 does. G Running DECxterm or any other remapping script on the standard xterm asa: one finds on Solaris or AIX will not make it into a vt220.  E It's worth noting that these scripts in fact remove part of the vt220SH functionality from XFree86 xterm - DECUDK.  They also remove part of theD vt100 functionality (the ability to switch the keypad between normal and application mode).   Seet$ 	http://invisible-island.net/vttest/   -- a= Thomas E. Dickey <dickey@radix.net> <dickey@herndon4.his.com>m http://dickey.his.com9 ftp://dickey.his.com   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jan 03 22:22:45 +0100) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)n4 Subject: Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year)) Message-ID: <fgM5TQGh5kKO@elias.decus.ch>t  e In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-fdBTj2ddeKK9@localhost>, djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes:=F > On Tue, 7 Jan 2003 10:26:54 UTC, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>  > wrote: > J >> The 'other' Camel I know and love is the UK progressive rock group fromH >> the early 1970s with some recently reissued and remastered works, whoK >> had a little fall-out with Camel cigarettes in the US over album covers.=D >> Similarly relatively unknown in the mainstream but dedicated fans: >> compare them with some of the greats in the rock world. > H > Rock on Tommy!. A band I've enjoyed for more than two decades. (SoundsF > better than 'nearly thirty years' - even though it probably is :-)) & > Still haven't found a Camel DVD yet. >   D Talk of a blast from the past! I first saw Camel as a support act toO some band which was at the time much more famous. Camel blew 'em off the stage.   H Good old google brings up such titles as "In the Land of Grey and Pink", "Snow Goose" etc.e   -- d
 Paul Sture Switzerland " Nostalgia ain't what it used to be   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jan 03 22:28:31 +0100) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) 4 Subject: Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year)) Message-ID: <t4+3mOelOS31@elias.decus.ch>r  U In article <fgM5TQGh5kKO@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:t > J > Good old google brings up such titles as "In the Land of Grey and Pink", > "Snow Goose" etc.= > L Oh dear, showing my age and lack of memory. The former title was by Caravan. -- o
 Paul Sture Switzerlando (now listening to Pink Floyd)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:37:33 -040040 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>4 Subject: Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year)/ Message-ID: <3E208E9C.3BB7C4E3@vl.videotron.ca>d  $ VMS must be unreliable and insecure.  K Sue said that VMS engineers told her not to buy lottery tickets because onew never wins.i  L I am about to brave the deep canadian winter cold to get to the dpanneur toM cash in a big whopping  WINNING ticket. ($10.00 :-). This proves that the VMS N engineers are wrong. In this drawing, there were exactly 270712 people who won6 $10 or more. (Including two who each won 3,750,000.00)    H And if VMS engineers can be wrong on lotteries, what else have they madeN errors about ? Could the whole architecture of VMS be flawed because of this ?  L (This is just to confirm that I have no ties to the engineers, that I am notJ their friend etc, so that I do qualify for the lottery about when VMS will boot on IA64).   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:02:08 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@earthlink.spamfree.net>4 Subject: Re: [OT] Lotteries (was Re: Happy New Year)6 Message-ID: <3E20BE90.CD084B69@earthlink.spamfree.net>   JF Mezei wrote:r > & > VMS must be unreliable and insecure. > M > Sue said that VMS engineers told her not to buy lottery tickets because onel
 > never wins.  > N > I am about to brave the deep canadian winter cold to get to the dpanneur toO > cash in a big whopping  WINNING ticket. ($10.00 :-). This proves that the VMS P > engineers are wrong. In this drawing, there were exactly 270712 people who won8 > $10 or more. (Including two who each won 3,750,000.00) > J > And if VMS engineers can be wrong on lotteries, what else have they madeP > errors about ? Could the whole architecture of VMS be flawed because of this ? > N > (This is just to confirm that I have no ties to the engineers, that I am notL > their friend etc, so that I do qualify for the lottery about when VMS will > boot on IA64).  F I've gotten back $2.00 on at least one ticket three weeks running, andF yesterday got back $7.00 on another ticket as well. So, when I got newG tickets, I was able to get $20 worth of tickets with only $11 out of myv pocket.w  G Doesn't exactly pay for itself, but it at least it "softens the blow" af/ bit. Got $175 back on a $5 ticket once. Once...v   -- t David J. Dachterax dba DJE Systemsh http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.023 ************************ --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪     ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    	֪    
֪    ֪    ֪    
֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪     ֪    !֪    "֪    #֪    $֪    %֪    &֪    '֪    (֪    )֪    *֪    +֪    ,֪    -֪    .֪    /֪    0֪    1֪    2֪    3֪    4֪    5֪    6֪    7֪    8֪    9֪    :֪    ;֪    <֪    =֪    >֪    ?֪    @֪    A֪    B֪    C֪    D֪    E֪    F֪    G֪    H֪    I֪    J֪    K֪    L֪    M֪    N֪    O֪    P֪    Q֪    R֪    S֪    T֪    U֪    V֪    W֪    X֪    Y֪    Z֪    [֪    \֪    ]֪    ^֪    _֪    `֪    a֪    b֪    c֪    d֪    e֪    f֪    g֪    h֪    i֪    j֪    k֪    l֪    m֪    n֪    o֪    p֪    q֪    r֪    s֪    t֪    u֪    v֪    w֪    x֪    y֪    z֪    {֪    |֪    }֪    ~֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    ֪    