0 INFO-VAX	Thu, 23 Jan 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 45      Contents:5 RE: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest 5 RE: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest 5 Re: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest 5 RE: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest 5 RE: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest 5 Re: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest 5 Re: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest 3 Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ? 3 Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ? 3 Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ? 3 Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ? 4 Re: Access linux and/or windows directories with vms1 Re: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium 1 Re: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium  Re: automatic screensaver  Re: automatic screensaver  Re: automatic screensaver M Can we cut the crap? WAS: Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ? P Re: Can we cut the crap? WAS: Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX 2 Re: Command/API to list locked files in a cluster?2 Re: Command/API to list locked files in a cluster?2 Re: Command/API to list locked files in a cluster?G Re: copyright (was: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!) G Re: copyright (was: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!) , Does Hobbyist License Support Multiple CPUs?$ Embedding a secret key in executable2 Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!2 Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!2 Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!2 RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!2 Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!2 Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains! Re: How to Backup OSX  Re: How to Backup OSX  Re: How to Backup OSX  Re: How to Backup OSX  Re: How to Backup OSX : Illuminata report:: "HP's Server Business: On the Rebound" Re: Is that possible Re: Marvel Performance Re: NIST Servers and ACTS  Re: NIST Servers and ACTS  Re: NIST Servers and ACTS $ Re: OpenVMS DCL bumper sticker offer$ Re: OpenVMS DCL bumper sticker offerM Re: OpenVMS FAQ Pending (was: Re: Network Time Protocol (NTP) for OpenVMS ??) % OT-ish: Opteron servers now available ) Re: OT-ish: Opteron servers now available ) RE: OT-ish: Opteron servers now available ) Re: OT-ish: Opteron servers now available $ SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/98( RE: SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/98( Re: SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/987 Re: Security threats seen big for 2003 ... not for VMS! 7 RE: Security threats seen big for 2003 ... not for VMS! 7 Re: Security threats seen big for 2003 ... not for VMS! ' Re: System uptime - The Uptimes Project ' Re: System uptime - The Uptimes Project ' Re: System uptime - The Uptimes Project ' Re: System uptime - The Uptimes Project ' Re: System uptime - The Uptimes Project ' Re: System uptime - The Uptimes Project ) Re: The HP marketing juggernaut grinds on ) Re: The HP marketing juggernaut grinds on ) Re: The HP marketing juggernaut grinds on  xwindows startup option  Re: xwindows startup option  Re: YA OpenVMS Newbie   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 21:22:34 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>> Subject: RE: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest6 Message-ID: <20030122212234.26341.qmail@gacracker.org>  : On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> wrote:I >I hope I helped at least. If it happens again, let me know and I'll take  >another swing.   G Well, the same has been happening in the multinet group. This morning I J mailed a complaint to teleline's usenet abuse address and posted it to the' newsgroup at the same time (Message-ID: J <20030122085248.5046.qmail@nym.alias.net>). So far no response, not even a& "We have received and are processing".  J I don't know if reporting in this way is any more effective, but there's aK chance that the abuser(s) will see it and may think twice before posting in  the group again.     Doc. --  : Time and money, the psychotropics of the business world...K ~ VAXman                                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:37:24 -0800 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>> Subject: RE: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest0 Message-ID: <01C2C213.25271280@sulfer.icius.com>  E Drop me an example or two offline, complete with headers. I'll see if  there's anything I can do.   Shane    -----Original Message-----; From: Doc.Cypher [mailto:Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]] ) Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 1:23 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com # Cc: mail2news@freedom.gmsociety.org > Subject: RE: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest    : On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> wrote:I >I hope I helped at least. If it happens again, let me know and I'll take  >another swing.   G Well, the same has been happening in the multinet group. This morning I F mailed a complaint to teleline's usenet abuse address and posted it to the ' newsgroup at the same time (Message-ID: H <20030122085248.5046.qmail@nym.alias.net>). So far no response, not even a & "We have received and are processing".  H I don't know if reporting in this way is any more effective, but there's a H chance that the abuser(s) will see it and may think twice before posting in the group again.     Doc. --  : Time and money, the psychotropics of the business world... ~ VAXman https://vmsbox.cjb.net   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jan 2003 21:22:44 GMT) From: rankin@pactechdata.com (Pat Rankin) > Subject: Re: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest/ Message-ID: <22JAN200313224223@pactechdata.com>   4 In article <Ul66TtTVoIkX@eisner.encompasserve.org>,\2  Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes...D > Perhaps due to Shane's efforts, the original problem seems to have > abated, at least for now.   G      You have tunnel vision here, focusing on one particular newsgroup. G vmsnet.alpha had nearly 2000 messages yesterday (all since the previous B day; I haven't checked yet today).  Those idiots have been hittingD nearly every group in the vmsnet.* hierarchy for weeks, even the fewC groups that continue to have a steady flow of real on-topic traffic H like vmsnet.networks.tcp-ip.multinet.  Someone is also evidently issuingH cancel messages in a losing battle to combat it; on any given day on theG news server I use, about 1/2 to 2/3 of the junk is already gone but the F rest is still the Spanish multi-part binary copyright infringing crap.  2                 Pat Rankin, rankin@pactechdata.com   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 22:27:46 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>> Subject: RE: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest6 Message-ID: <20030122222746.28091.qmail@gacracker.org>  : On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> wrote:F >Drop me an example or two offline, complete with headers. I'll see if >there's anything I can do.   / They seem to have dropped off my server. Sorry.      Doc. --  : Time and money, the psychotropics of the business world...K ~ VAXman                                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:41:48 -0800 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>> Subject: RE: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest0 Message-ID: <01C2C21C.04337830@sulfer.icius.com>  F Ship me some examples with headers, and give the group names, and I'll! see if there's anything I can do.    Shane    -----Original Message-----< From: rankin@pactechdata.com [mailto:rankin@pactechdata.com]) Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 1:23 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest    4 In article <Ul66TtTVoIkX@eisner.encompasserve.org>,\2  Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes...D > Perhaps due to Shane's efforts, the original problem seems to have > abated, at least for now.   G      You have tunnel vision here, focusing on one particular newsgroup. G vmsnet.alpha had nearly 2000 messages yesterday (all since the previous B day; I haven't checked yet today).  Those idiots have been hittingD nearly every group in the vmsnet.* hierarchy for weeks, even the fewC groups that continue to have a steady flow of real on-topic traffic H like vmsnet.networks.tcp-ip.multinet.  Someone is also evidently issuingH cancel messages in a losing battle to combat it; on any given day on theG news server I use, about 1/2 to 2/3 of the junk is already gone but the F rest is still the Spanish multi-part binary copyright infringing crap.  2                 Pat Rankin, rankin@pactechdata.com   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 22:40:24 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>> Subject: Re: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest6 Message-ID: <20030122224024.28494.qmail@gacracker.org>  : On 22 Jan 2003, rankin@pactechdata.com (Pat Rankin) wrote:  H >vmsnet.alpha had nearly 2000 messages yesterday (all since the previousC >day; I haven't checked yet today).  Those idiots have been hitting E >nearly every group in the vmsnet.* hierarchy for weeks, even the few D >groups that continue to have a steady flow of real on-topic trafficI >like vmsnet.networks.tcp-ip.multinet.  Someone is also evidently issuing I >cancel messages in a losing battle to combat it; on any given day on the H >news server I use, about 1/2 to 2/3 of the junk is already gone but theG >rest is still the Spanish multi-part binary copyright infringing crap.   J If you can get any complete sets of headers please do. They no longer showI on my news server. Shane Smith has offered to have a go at them, I'm sure / he'd appreciate copies of whatever you can get.   G What I do remember from the posts was that the Path indicated a peering I arrangement with Telephonica. If the orginating ISP won't respond, that's ) what you do - complain to their upstream.   % Complaints in Spanish might help too.      Doc. --  : Time and money, the psychotropics of the business world...K ~ VAXman                                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 16:17:52 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) > Subject: Re: (OT) lots of spam in vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest3 Message-ID: <vFQlgq4e++Lc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <22JAN200313224223@pactechdata.com>, rankin@pactechdata.com (Pat Rankin) writes: 6 > In article <Ul66TtTVoIkX@eisner.encompasserve.org>,\4 >  Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes...E >> Perhaps due to Shane's efforts, the original problem seems to have  >> abated, at least for now. > I >      You have tunnel vision here, focusing on one particular newsgroup.   0 I only pay attention to the newsgroups I follow.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 14:42:28 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) < Subject: Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ?3 Message-ID: <BwI7a6+K5XSg@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <b0m5o8$r17c8$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:B > In article <20030121233651.69077.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com>,3 > 	Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes:  >>  3 >> There is no escape ! The standard UNIX will die   >>   > 4 > Here we go (yet) again.  Unix is dead, news at 11. > B > This has been a constant theme ever since 1980 when Byte printed! > their headline, "Is UNIX Dead?"        A real virus is hard to kill.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:06:30 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> < Subject: Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ?H Message-ID: <GBEX9.76676$ej1.63035@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  @ "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in5 message news:BwI7a6+K5XSg@eisner.encompasserve.org... 7 > In article <b0m5o8$r17c8$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, * bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:D > > In article <20030121233651.69077.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com>,4 > > Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes: > >>4 > >> There is no escape ! The standard UNIX will die > >> > > 6 > > Here we go (yet) again.  Unix is dead, news at 11. > > D > > This has been a constant theme ever since 1980 when Byte printed# > > their headline, "Is UNIX Dead?"  > " >    A real virus is hard to kill.  E Is it possible, is it likely, that we could contaminate other worlds? D So far as I know, none of the Pioneer, Viking, etc...spacecraft have) been running that particular virus...yet.    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 15:46:17 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)< Subject: Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ?< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0301221546.a290f77@posting.google.com>  e bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<b0m5o8$r17c8$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>... B > In article <20030121233651.69077.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com>,3 > 	Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes:  > > 4 > > There is no escape ! The standard UNIX will die  > >  > 4 > Here we go (yet) again.  Unix is dead, news at 11. > B > This has been a constant theme ever since 1980 when Byte printed! > their headline, "Is UNIX Dead?"  > E > It wasn't then, it isn't now, and it shows no sign of dying anytime C > in the foreseeable future.  Unlike the many proprietary OSes that $ > have come and gone in the interim. >  > bill  ? unix is garbage just like linux ... someone out to shoot it and  put it out of its misery ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:59:31 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> < Subject: Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ?& Message-ID: <3E2F5A93.9FD0365@fsi.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > B > In article <20030121233651.69077.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com>,: >         Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes: > > 3 > > There is no escape ! The standard UNIX will die  > >  > 4 > Here we go (yet) again.  Unix is dead, news at 11. > B > This has been a constant theme ever since 1980 when Byte printed! > their headline, "Is UNIX Dead?"  > E > It wasn't then, it isn't now, and it shows no sign of dying anytime C > in the foreseeable future.  Unlike the many proprietary OSes that $ > have come and gone in the interim.  E I once knew where to find the stat.'s. Last I heard, FreeBSD on Intel E IA32 was actually one of the more ubiquitous web server platforms, if  not #1.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 03:36:32 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)= Subject: Re: Access linux and/or windows directories with vms ; Message-ID: <3e2f5530.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>   , David Webb (david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk) wrote:L > Dec TCPIP services doesn't currently support SSH - though version 2 client. > and server are promised in a future release. > M > Multinet and TCPWARE have their own (I believe both now SSH v2) clients and 
 > servers.  C Process also offers SSH for OpenVMS which is MultiNet/TCPware's SSH  for Compaq TCP/IP Services.    cu,    Martin --  G                            | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer 4  UNIX is user friendly.    | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deG  It's just selective about |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ ;  who its friends are.      | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:28:55 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium. Message-ID: <3E2EE2E6.898D00C@vl.videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote: C > >ENSA@Work 2003: Users of HP's AlphaServer range have seven years ' > >before they have to move to Itanium.  > K > If they choose to start that article with an inaccuracy, I guess the rest H > might not be worth reading.  HP has never said anything about "have to > move" off of alpha.   L While you may pedantically be correct, the fact remains that HP (and Compaq)N have sent strong messages that, like it or not, you will eventually have to goK to the unwanted IA64.  HP may have softened the blow with some garantees of L support for 5 years after last sale, and some sort of commitment to continue: selling new Alphas until at least (was it 2004 or 2005 ?).  M When you look at at the June 21 and MAy 7th announcements, the "logic" behind K the Alpha murder was to consolidate all OS onto a single platform to reduce G support costs, and get the cost savings associated with using commodity ' chips/hardware for "industry standard".   L The quicker HP gets rid of VAX, Alpha, MIPS and PA-RISC support, the quickerL it can get to its goal of having all its eggs in one intel basketcase. ThereN is therefore a big incentive to stop new sales as soon as possible so that the3 5 year support timer can start as soon as possible.   L HP may not have said "you'll have to move off Alpha", but it has stated thatK support for Alpha would eventually be widthdrawn. And that is tantamount to G saying "you have to move off Alpha" if you are a large coirporation who % refuses to operate unsupported stuff.    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 20:44:08 -0800( From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut): Subject: Re: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium: Message-ID: <c5cf6e8.0301222044.75bec9@posting.google.com>  ^ david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) wrote in message news:<b0mmqg$gg2$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>...e > In article <s+k1KODmlcZE@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: \ > >In article <b0mefv$dqj$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) writes:h > >> In article <VC53uGXnvzWg@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:^ > >>>In article <b0ma0e$c51$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) writes: > >>> T > >>>> Which was probably the biggest complaint at the time. If Compaq had announcedU > >>>> porting of VMS and Tru64 to IA64 but not simultaneously announced the dropping R > >>>> of work on EV8 (and hence in peoples mind the death of the Alpha chip) thenP > >>>> they would have garnered almost universal support from the people in this > >>>> newsgroup.  > >>> P > >>>And they would have lost the opportunity for the payments offered by Intel. > >>>  > >>  @ > >> Were the payments not just for porting their OS' to IA64 ? A > >> Are you really saying that Intel paid Compaq to kill Alpha ?  > > L > >Compaq has not killed Alpha.  The payments were made in return for makingK > >IA64 the chosen environment for servers in the future.  I presume Compaq N > >(now HP) is free to enhance Alpha as much as possible for operating systems  > >made by others (e.g., Apple). > >  >   O > >> Paying Compaq to port their OS's to IA64 is one thing but if there are any P > >> official documents proving that Intel linked this payment to Compaq killingA > >> off their chip then I'd think Intel would be in big trouble.  > > J > >So you are right, in a nit-picking sort of way.  Compaq can honor theirK > >agreement with Intel (we presume) by continuing to develop Alpha but not ! > >support the new Alphas on VMS.  > P > No not supporting VMS and Tru64 on any new alphas produced is exactly the sameM > as "killing" the chip since apart from a relatively small linux usage those $ > were the OSs which used that chip.  ) What's linux?  Is it anything like these:   " http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/alpha/  ! http://www.openbsd.org/alpha.html   0 http://www.itworld.com/nl/unix_insider/09172002/  O > Any papers proving that Intel linked it's payments to Compaq not just porting O > it's Operating systems to IA64 but to either stopping development of Alpha or J > to committing to only run those OSs on IA64 rather than on both would be  > equally as damaging for Intel.P > If Compaq made that decision on its own then thats fine since the chip and OSsF > are theirs to do with as they wish. However Intel offering financial. > inducements for Compaq to do that is not OK. >  > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:11:43 -0500 A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> " Subject: Re: automatic screensaver. Message-ID: <3e2f090f$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  , <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A1A5A4.4421D46D@SendSpamHere.ORG...B > In article <3e2ed9dc$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge"1 <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes:  > > I > >Uh.  How about installing V7.3-1 and Motif V1.2-6?  It's there.  After  all,I > >V6.2 is like what - 7 years old?  Lots of improvments between then and  now. > 4 > Except for something to replace DisplayPostscript! >   K You gotta learn to let go ;-)  Display Postscript is dead, long live Adobe. J Unless you are using it as a programming interface, use some other display app, like ghostscript.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 16:20:15 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) " Subject: Re: automatic screensaver3 Message-ID: <8HW+ugHme0jC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <3e2f090f$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes:. > <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message, > news:00A1A5A4.4421D46D@SendSpamHere.ORG...C >> In article <3e2ed9dc$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" 3 > <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes:  >> >J >> >Uh.  How about installing V7.3-1 and Motif V1.2-6?  It's there.  After > all,J >> >V6.2 is like what - 7 years old?  Lots of improvments between then and > now. >>5 >> Except for something to replace DisplayPostscript!  >> > M > You gotta learn to let go ;-)  Display Postscript is dead, long live Adobe. L > Unless you are using it as a programming interface, use some other display > app, like ghostscript.  6 So Fred, what is your solution for DOCUMENT/GRAPHICS ?  4 Conventional wisdom seems to be VMS V7.2 or earlier.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:28:18 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG" Subject: Re: automatic screensaver0 Message-ID: <00A1A5C4.1FBAE261@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <8HW+ugHme0jC@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: s >In article <3e2f090f$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes: / >> <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message - >> news:00A1A5A4.4421D46D@SendSpamHere.ORG... D >>> In article <3e2ed9dc$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge"4 >> <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes: >>> > K >>> >Uh.  How about installing V7.3-1 and Motif V1.2-6?  It's there.  After  >> all, K >>> >V6.2 is like what - 7 years old?  Lots of improvments between then and  >> now.  >>> 6 >>> Except for something to replace DisplayPostscript! >>>  >>  N >> You gotta learn to let go ;-)  Display Postscript is dead, long live Adobe.M >> Unless you are using it as a programming interface, use some other display  >> app, like ghostscript.  > 7 >So Fred, what is your solution for DOCUMENT/GRAPHICS ?  > 5 >Conventional wisdom seems to be VMS V7.2 or earlier.   K Eyup...  Why I'll be stuck here on V7.1-2 for a long long long long long...  time.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:46:36 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> V Subject: Can we cut the crap? WAS: Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ?' Message-ID: <3E2F113C.9030503@MMaz.com>    Bob Koehler wrote:  a >In article <b0m5o8$r17c8$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  >    > B >>In article <20030121233651.69077.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com>,3 >>	Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes:  >>     >>3 >>>There is no escape ! The standard UNIX will die   >>> 	 >>>        >>> 4 >>Here we go (yet) again.  Unix is dead, news at 11. >>B >>This has been a constant theme ever since 1980 when Byte printed! >>their headline, "Is UNIX Dead?"  >>     >> > ! >   A real virus is hard to kill.  >  >    > I It amazes me that Unix bigots more than two decades later still rant and  ' rave this pseudo-theological non-sense!   8 * NEWS FLASH * NEWS FLASH * NEWS FLASH * NEWS FLASH *     G It isn't Unix that has put VMS into the position it is in today, it is  G about 15 years of crappy direction and management from the likes of CQ   Palmer, Curley, and now Carley!   F If anything Windoze is the IT centers major pain in the arse because, I unlike the variants of Unix, Windoze can't get out of its own shadow let  C alone be a reliable and dependable OS.  I have VMS, Unix and Linux  E systems that have current uptimes clocked well into the triple digit  D days; This cannot be said of our Windoze's servers (lets don't even  discuss desktops).  A We no longer live, operate and grow in the homogeneous vacuum of  I Digital, I wish we did, but we don't!  This makes finding ways to cobble  D all of the disparate parts of the puzzle into a working data center E necessary, is what brings 'VALUE' to this list, not the thousands of  E postings a month related to OS religious wars, speculations of VMS's  E demise, HP's mis-steps, Compaq's axing of Alpha, CQ's selling of the  < jewels - The horse has been beaten beyond death, as it were!  H Can we literally 'cut the crap' and get the noise off this list and get G it returned to it technical roots because though I rarely need any VMS  I help after twenty-years in the trenches, I am like many others who stick  I around in an attempt to be an aid to others, but I'm about ready to pull   the plug on this...    Barry    --    @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:21:33 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>Y Subject: Re: Can we cut the crap? WAS: Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX  , Message-ID: <3E2F6DCD.7060109@tsoft-inc.com>   Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote:    J > Can we literally 'cut the crap' and get the noise off this list and get I > it returned to it technical roots because though I rarely need any VMS  K > help after twenty-years in the trenches, I am like many others who stick  K > around in an attempt to be an aid to others, but I'm about ready to pull   > the plug on this...     O Winter depression causes all types of outbursts.  A week in the Caribbean is a   great cure.    Dave   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:33:23 +0000 (UTC) , From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis); Subject: Re: Command/API to list locked files in a cluster? . Message-ID: <b0mrm3$erb$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   cgilley@bravewc.com (Charles Gilley) writes in article <139d5a58.0301220852.959da01@posting.google.com> dated 22 Jan 2003 08:52:54 -0800: D >Subject pretty much says it all - I have a cluster of Alphas, and IE >need to be able to list who has what files locked, preferably across 
 >the cluster.    $ mc sysman  SYSMAN> set env/clus  SYSMAN> do sho dev /files dka100  / or if you want to know about a particular file,   B SYSMAN> do pipe sho dev /files dka100 | sea sys$input: myfile.dat;  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:13:06 +0100 . From: labadie <en_trajectant_a_mort@127.0.0.1>; Subject: Re: Command/API to list locked files in a cluster? ) Message-ID: <3E2EFB52.2AB5DD6E@127.0.0.1>    Charles Gilley wrote:   E > Subject pretty much says it all - I have a cluster of Alphas, and I F > need to be able to list who has what files locked, preferably across > the cluster. > E > Haven't found anything yet, but reading about file locking makes me # > want to believe something exists.  >  > Thanks   Hello   @ Get Amds or Availability Manager, it does the job perfectly, see2 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/wiz_7564.html   regards    Grard   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:17:34 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>; Subject: Re: Command/API to list locked files in a cluster? , Message-ID: <3E2F6CDE.9010504@tsoft-inc.com>   labadie wrote:   >  > Charles Gilley wrote:  >  > E >>Subject pretty much says it all - I have a cluster of Alphas, and I F >>need to be able to list who has what files locked, preferably across >>the cluster. >>E >>Haven't found anything yet, but reading about file locking makes me # >>want to believe something exists.     O I've got a program that scans the DLM database for RMS locks, then can display  N all locks, display blocked locks, or both.  All locks is quite a bit of data. N My concern is blocked locks, and it does that rather well.  It has a hack for O Alpha VMS, which i don't totally understand, but it does work on single nodes.  : Multiple nodes seems possible, I just didn't implement it.  3 Written in BASIC, a copy is available upon request.    Dave   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 15:49:17 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)P Subject: Re: copyright (was: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!)= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0301221549.5fda2a53@posting.google.com>   | Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KRJKO8C22Q8WW5NX@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...L > > I think that there is a question of fair use here. Posting an article inK > > a newsgroup does not invalidate the copyright of an article. The writer G > > still maintains rights over the article and ayone wanting to use it 9 > > commercially would still need to contact the author.   > > D > > But if an article is posted in a public forum, doesn't it become) > > implicitely publicly distributable ?   >   5 you or someone needs to explain this to Mark Levy ...    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 01:09:43 GMT ( From: "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com>P Subject: Re: copyright (was: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!)* Message-ID: <rhHX9.2150$rM2.907@rwcrnsc53>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message 7 news:d7791aa1.0301221549.5fda2a53@posting.google.com...   7 > you or someone needs to explain this to Mark Levy ...   K Terry posted the article on the site. That does not confer any right to you  except to read it there.  @ Arguing with you is like pissing up a rope. You are incapable ofA understanding anything beyond your tiny sphere of misinformation.   G I won't even go into the content of the private e-mails I received over - this. I don't have permission to post them...   E Something you may want to read. Notice that it says nothing about the I copyright being invalid or implicit permission being given by having been  posted on a public site.  - http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html   . Did you see this at the bottom of the article?  L (c) 2003 by Terry C. Shannon, IT Consultant and Publisher, Shannon Knows HPC   Or at the bottom of the page:    Copyright  2002 OpenVMS.org    > How about this from one of the sites you post from, Infoworld:7 http://www.infoworld.com/aboutus/t_copyright.html#term1   * Can I link to an article on InfoWorld.com?  H You need prior permission to link to an article on InfoWorld.com. SimplyJ e-mail copyright@infoworld.com and include the URL of the article you wishK to link to and where you will be linking from. We will respond back with an G approval. Please also review 'Participation and Conduct' under Terms of A Service, for more information about linking to InfoWorld content.   0 How do I contact the Copyright Clearance Center?  C To obtain permission and fee information for photocopying, quoting, I abstract, or republication of InfoWorld articles, please contact customer * service at the Copyright Clearance Center.   Terms and Conditions of Use   J Welcome to Infoworld.com ("Service"), an online service of InfoWorld MediaH Group, Inc. Your use of the Service will be subject to the terms of thisK Terms of Service Agreement (TOS). The TOS may change from time to time. UsemJ of service after a change will subject you to the new terms. IF YOU DO NOTI AGREE TO THESE TERMS DO NOT USE THE SERVICE AS VIOLATION OF THE TERMS CANv LEAD TO LEGAL LIABILITY.   Participation and Conductv  J During the term of this Agreement, InfoWorld grants to you a terminable atJ will non-exclusive license to use and display the Service, and to downloadF materials available through the Service, all solely for your personal,G non-commercial use. You may not transfer, assign, sub-license, lend, or K re-sell the rights granted under this license. You may not link to our site G if you sell ads on your site or you charge a subscription fee to use ortJ access your site. No deep linking directly to articles is permitted if youL sell ads on your site or you charge a subscription fee to use or access yourJ site. Any use in violation of these limits shall constitute a violation ofJ the terms of this license. Absolutely no framing of our site is permitted.  . (note that I didn't link to an _article_ here)  < Did you get permission to post the Infoworld articles, Boob?    0 'Nuff said. Make a bigger fool of yourself, Bob.   ML   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:18:47 -0600 - From: Michael Rice <MichaelARice@knology.net> 5 Subject: Does Hobbyist License Support Multiple CPUs?w/ Message-ID: <v2unoucd3q6e8f@corp.supernews.com>l  D I may get access to a 2 CPU Alphaserver for home.  Will the OpenVMS H hobbyist license cover this and allow me to do SMP or does it only work  for single CPU systems?B   Thanks.  Michaele   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 01:21:22 -0400e0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>- Subject: Embedding a secret key in executableu/ Message-ID: <3E2F7BCF.660822E6@vl.videotron.ca>o   Goal: I At software install time, system manager enters some random digit that isIM embedded as a binary value (encryption key)  in the executable. (install willrM use link to put everything together). I want that value to be totally lost in S the .EXE file so that ANA/IMAGE would not reveal some global symbol name and value.    Is this possible ?   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 15:59:46 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski); Subject: Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!i= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0301221559.4ce62305@posting.google.com>e  g JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3E2DBA1D.D8A5B340@vl.videotron.ca>...  > "Mark E. Levy" wrote:eN > > you certainly don't understand chip technology. Do yourself a favor, Boob,M > > just shut up. VMS has a better chance of survival without idiots like you L > > promoting it. Like they say, with friends like you, who needs enemies... > B > Was it you who reminded him of the First ammendment in the USA ? > L > I think that there is a question of fair use here. Posting an article in aM > newsgroup does not invalidate the copyright of an article. The writer still L > maintains rights over the article and ayone wanting to use it commercially) > would still need to contact the author.1 > N > But if an article is posted in a public forum, doesn't it become implicitely > publicly distributable ? > 7 > (distributable does not change who owns the article).a > M > One may disagree with what Mr Ceculski says. But I have no problem with him N > posting his opinions. If you want people with whom you do not share opinionsM > to stop posting, perhaps you should go back in time, become a member of the K > soviet union's communist party, enjoy all the benefits of luxuries, while = > being able to silence anyone whose opinions you don't like.q > W > Usenet was created for freedom of expression by everyone, and that MUST be respected.   B thank you for eliqoutely stating the truth J.F. ... I don't alwaysA agree with what you say, but you always are inclined to a formal,e= intelligent discussion on posts without resorting to calling nA someone an idiot because he doesn't agree with your opinions, and ? that speaks highly about you as a person, compared to others on-? this board who have a "it's my way or the highway" attitude ...    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 16:03:15 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski); Subject: Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!e= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0301221603.77322742@posting.google.com>n  H "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<PxkX9.654114> J > No. That was not me. If he wants to author his own article, he's free toI > post it anywhere he wants. He's not free to redistribute other's works,  > irrespective of profit.  > K > > One may disagree with what Mr Ceculski says. But I have no problem withh >  himG > > posting his opinions. If you want people with whom you do not sharen >  opinions K > > to stop posting, perhaps you should go back in time, become a member ofT >  theM > > soviet union's communist party, enjoy all the benefits of luxuries, while ? > > being able to silence anyone whose opinions you don't like.0 >   J I think that there is a question of fair use here. Posting an article in aK newsgroup does not invalidate the copyright of an article. The writer stillvJ maintains rights over the article and ayone wanting to use it commercially' would still need to contact the author.   L But if an article is posted in a public forum, doesn't it become implicitely publicly distributable ?  5 (distributable does not change who owns the article).1     ANSWER THE QUESTION MARK!h   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 16:08:20 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski); Subject: Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!n= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0301221608.716c7ce0@posting.google.com>i  o "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<PxkX9.654114$GR5.462966@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>...Y? > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message + > news:3E2DBA1D.D8A5B340@vl.videotron.ca...rD > > Was it you who reminded him of the First ammendment in the USA ? > J > No. That was not me. If he wants to author his own article, he's free toI > post it anywhere he wants. He's not free to redistribute other's works,i > irrespective of profit.w > K > > One may disagree with what Mr Ceculski says. But I have no problem withs >  himG > > posting his opinions. If you want people with whom you do not share  >  opinionsnK > > to stop posting, perhaps you should go back in time, become a member ofi >  theM > > soviet union's communist party, enjoy all the benefits of luxuries, while-? > > being able to silence anyone whose opinions you don't like.o > > > He's not posting his opinions. He's posting everyone else's.  A Sorry Mark, I just talked to an attorney friend of mine, and once.@ it's publically posted by the author, as long as you don't reuse? it for gain or claim it as your own (plagerize), then like J.F.e< said, the first ammendment guarantees the right for it to be> discussed in a public forum ... are you ready to start burning? all the books you don't like yet?  Someone else did that in theA+ 1930's and we all know what that led to ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:17:43 -08002$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>; Subject: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains! 0 Message-ID: <01C2C231.DE0104F0@sulfer.icius.com>  4 >"Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> wrote in message; news:<PxkX9.654114$GR5.462966@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>...s@ >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message, >> news:3E2DBA1D.D8A5B340@vl.videotron.ca...E >> > Was it you who reminded him of the First ammendment in the USA ?b >> .K >> No. That was not me. If he wants to author his own article, he's free toaJ >> post it anywhere he wants. He's not free to redistribute other's works, > irrespective of profit.  >> pL >> > One may disagree with what Mr Ceculski says. But I have no problem with >>  himwG > > posting his opinions. If you want people with whom you do not shareo >  opinionsaL >> > to stop posting, perhaps you should go back in time, become a member of >>  thedN >> > soviet union's communist party, enjoy all the benefits of luxuries, while@ >> > being able to silence anyone whose opinions you don't like. >> d? >> He's not posting his opinions. He's posting everyone else's.t >tB >Sorry Mark, I just talked to an attorney friend of mine, and onceA >it's publically posted by the author, as long as you don't reuset@ >it for gain or claim it as your own (plagerize), then like J.F.= >said, the first ammendment guarantees the right for it to be ? >discussed in a public forum ... are you ready to start burning-@ >all the books you don't like yet?  Someone else did that in the, >1930's and we all know what that led to ...  E Now there's interesting. I'm not looking to get into an argument with0B anyone here, this is an honest request for clarification. Wouldn'tD broadcast television or radio count as a public forum? If so then byG that rule, putting a film or piece of music on television would make it F effectively freely copyable and sharable as long as nobody charged forE it. That in turn would destroy the music and film industries' revenuey) streams. There's no way it's that simple.t   Shane.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:25:47 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"); Subject: Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!s6 Message-ID: <00A1A5BB.623ED15C@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  h In article <d7791aa1.0301221603.77322742@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:I >"Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<PxkX9.654114> sK >> No. That was not me. If he wants to author his own article, he's free toPJ >> post it anywhere he wants. He's not free to redistribute other's works, >> irrespective of profit. >> uL >> > One may disagree with what Mr Ceculski says. But I have no problem with >>  him H >> > posting his opinions. If you want people with whom you do not share >>  opinionsL >> > to stop posting, perhaps you should go back in time, become a member of >>  the-N >> > soviet union's communist party, enjoy all the benefits of luxuries, while@ >> > being able to silence anyone whose opinions you don't like. >> e >gK >I think that there is a question of fair use here. Posting an article in a2L >newsgroup does not invalidate the copyright of an article. The writer stillK >maintains rights over the article and ayone wanting to use it commerciallyi( >would still need to contact the author. > M >But if an article is posted in a public forum, doesn't it become implicitely  >publicly distributable ?o >e6 >(distributable does not change who owns the article). >t >i >ANSWER THE QUESTION MARK!  J I'm not Mark, and I'm not a lawyer, but as a writer I've got some interest? in copyright.  The answer (except in the not-applicable case of:J work-for-hire) is that the guy who wrote the thing holds the rights to it,B and can sell or distribute those rights as he wishes.  He can giveF permission to Ken F to post it on www.openvms.org and retain all otherI rights.  Because it's posted in one place, it's not automatically okay too@ quote it in its entirety in some other place without permission.  H The fact that nobody makes any money from quoting it on a newsgroup, andK that there's little likelihood of Terry's pieces getting collected and sold K in book form later means that nobody has any real incentive to get a lawyeroI to write a cease and desist letter, so you're unlikely to get in any real I trouble over it (vs, say, posting Dave Barry columns in their entirety to H Usenet, when his copyright will be vigorously defended, and if you don'tK cease and desist when you get the letter, you're likely to get sued).  But sG just because you probably won't get in trouble doesn't mean it's either  legal or polite.  J And about the "fair use" thing, "fair use" is quite limited, and I know ofL no legal interpretation which considers quoting the work in its entirety to  be "fair use."   -- Alanv  O ===============================================================================e0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056eM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025hO ===============================================================================l   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:31:38 GMTeL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"); Subject: Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!o6 Message-ID: <00A1A5BC.33691920@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  h In article <d7791aa1.0301221608.716c7ce0@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:p >"Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<PxkX9.654114$GR5.462966@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>...@ >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message, >> news:3E2DBA1D.D8A5B340@vl.videotron.ca...E >> > Was it you who reminded him of the First ammendment in the USA ?a >> UK >> No. That was not me. If he wants to author his own article, he's free to0J >> post it anywhere he wants. He's not free to redistribute other's works, >> irrespective of profit. >> iL >> > One may disagree with what Mr Ceculski says. But I have no problem with >>  himaH >> > posting his opinions. If you want people with whom you do not share >>  opinionsL >> > to stop posting, perhaps you should go back in time, become a member of >>  the-N >> > soviet union's communist party, enjoy all the benefits of luxuries, while@ >> > being able to silence anyone whose opinions you don't like. >> a? >> He's not posting his opinions. He's posting everyone else's.h >oB >Sorry Mark, I just talked to an attorney friend of mine, and onceA >it's publically posted by the author, as long as you don't reusei@ >it for gain or claim it as your own (plagerize), then like J.F.= >said, the first ammendment guarantees the right for it to be ? >discussed in a public forum ... are you ready to start burningi@ >all the books you don't like yet?  Someone else did that in the, >1930's and we all know what that led to ...  L Of course anything can be discussed in a public forum (modulo incitements toI riot); that's different from reproducing copyrighted work in its entiretyL without permission.o  M Quoting relevant parts of a work as part of a review or in critical debate is @ fair use; reproducing a copyrighted work in its entirety is not.  M Thought experiment: A recent Disney film is broadcast on tv.  You digitize itmO and put it up on your website for free download.  You don't claim it's your own0M work; you don't get paid for it.  Do you think the first amendment guaranteesuN your right to do this?  Do you think you might hear from Disney's lawyers?  DoE you think you'll have a leg to stand on if you don't cease and desist  immediately?    5 Is there a relevant difference between the two cases?t   -- Alanv    O ===============================================================================l0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056qM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025 O ===============================================================================y   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 14:35:24 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)g Subject: Re: How to Backup OSX3 Message-ID: <jEnxWfgoVB7M@eisner.encompasserve.org>0  t In article <ron-shepard-B21C3A.00482922012003@netnews.attbi.com>, Ron Shepard <ron-shepard@NOSPAM.attbi.com> writes:  E > We now have a situation where hard disk storage is either cheaper, EF > or comprable, to the cost of the media that is used to back it up.  G > It makes you wonder what is the point.  Why not simply buy more hard tF > drives, back up the data, power them down and store them in a vault?  D    Back when it was still the VAXLUG we had a presentation near hereF    from a thrid party backup vendor.  He was asked why do tape backupsE    instead of disk to disk and proceeded to knock a 9-track tape froml    the podium onto the floor.A  F    "I'll guarantee I can get most of the data, probably all of it, off4    that tape.  Just try that with a backup on disk."   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 14:37:22 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)t Subject: Re: How to Backup OSX3 Message-ID: <iI7f$hTI+Umg@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <87vg0hb6or.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:G > vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) writes:M > C >> I've read an article in a german computer magazine, that states,lG >> that it is nowadays cheaper to throw off the DLT-Tape library and to  >> buy a IDE-based raidsystem. >   C    Hm.  I've got a 4mm drive and about  TB worth of tape for free.m&    You can get disk cheaper than that?   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:20:07 +0000 (UTC)n, From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) Subject: Re: How to Backup OSX. Message-ID: <b0n5en$f61$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes in article <iI7f$hTI+Umg@eisner.encompasserve.org> dated 22 Jan 2003 14:37:22 -0600:eD >   Hm.  I've got a 4mm drive and about  TB worth of tape for free.' >   You can get disk cheaper than that?l  F I cut my HW maintenance (contract) costs in half for several Alphas by* removing the 4mm drive.  They break a lot.  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgr> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:29:42 -0400u0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: How to Backup OSX/ Message-ID: <3E2F2957.E9536E36@vl.videotron.ca>,   re: tape vs disk backup.    N If you have volume shadowing across buildings, the issue of off-site backup isH not as bad. Although you would have to keep enough drives to keep enoughL backups (eg, if you need 2 months at once a day, that would be 60 drives andF that makes managing the drives "interesting". Drives are generally not9 designed to be removable media that you switch every day.   M The advantage of tapes is that it makes it easy to store in a vault. Although H I guess one could also do the same with drives, but again, everytime youK handle a disk drive, you have greater risks of damaging it and/or the data.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:46:26 -0600t1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>n Subject: Re: How to Backup OSX' Message-ID: <3E2F5782.4517EBD5@fsi.net>s   Tony Lawrence wrote: >  > David J. Dachtera wrote: > > Tony Lawrence wrote: > >g > >>Howard S Shubs wrote:> > >>2 > >>>In article <Lj%W9.71429$1q3.10159@sccrnsc01>,, > >>> Tony Lawrence <tony@pcunix.com> wrote: > >>>h > >>>l > >>> L > >>>>I have no idea what you are referring to.  Many businesses have a 8 toJ > >>>>16 hour window in which to do backup.  If their entire system can beC > >>>>backed up to removable media in that time frame, they are noto# > >>>>constrained by space or time.  > >>>t > >>>wI > >>>In my experience, this is vanishingly rare.  Most people like to getrJ > >>>home rather than watch tapes spin, even if they can take down time in% > >>>order to get a nice cold backup.t > >>>w > >>L > >>I must be an idiot.  I've been arguing with you about the relative valueK > >>of backup methods and you obviously are so wet behind the ears that your% > >>think people do backups manually.n > >e > >o2 > > If you know how to automate backups including: > >o! > > o Shutdown the running system   > > o Boot up the stand-alone CD > & > Not necessary under any conditions.   7 I'll refer you to OpenVMS engineering for a correction.l   > I suspect you haven't much > experience at this.n  C 19 years with VMS, 24 years in the business. See my website. Formerw OpenVMS ASE.  
 Try again.  # > > o Kick-off a system-disk backupo% > > o Shutdown the stand-alone systema5 > > o Reboot the live, production system, sans app.'se- > > o Backup the production application disks  > > o Restart the applications.  > > K > > ...you'll not only become a very wealthy man, you'll fulfill the dreams:# > > of many denizens of this group.D > F > Sigh.  All of those things are done every day.  Your first two steps > aren't necessary,A  C Well, actually they are. Most of us "cheat" at it by doing a /IMAGE.H BACKUP of our live system disk while the cluster is up and running sinceF we simply cannot afford the downtime it requires, nor do we have savvy/ personnel on hand at 00:00 to perform the task.a  F Again, contact OpenVMS Engineering or the CSC for the supported system$ disk backup procedure as documented.  5 > but even that could be easily automated and in factsI > I've done things like that for other reasons.  Not necessary for backupe	 > though.o  G Well, actually yes it is. It's a gamble (calculated risk, really) to doaG it the way we all do it, but the instances of a failure at DR test timel6 have been so low as to not prohibit using the "cheat".   > >eI > > Actually, I could see doing that with a very sophisticated Reflectionc* > > script (RCL or RBS, take your choice). > >o= > > Oh, yeah, there's that zero-downtime thing to consider...m > B > Few of my clients get that, although we can come close with diskJ > snapshots.  If you REALLY need zero down time, that requires cooperationJ > from the application software: it has to be able to bring all data filesC > into sync and buffer all transactions while the snapshot is being J > prepared.  As that literally takes seconds,  that should be no hardship,. > but I don't have anything with that feature.   No one has it. It's eutopia.  F > There's nothing technically difficult about it though and everything@ > else is simple and BEING DONE EVERY DAY.  Nothing particularly > sophisticated about it.a  G That last comment suggest YOU may lack some experience with large-scaleb commercial systems..  B I spent two years writing BACKUP automation for large Chicago-areaH healthcare concern. It runs with tape library automation (*NOT* SLS) andA splits and rejoins shadow- and mirror-sets as needed, and rotates<E through sets of production environments, three a night to cover sevenl production environments.  G There's frequently a very large difference between what CAN be done andd' what SHOULD be done. Say, "compromise".m   -- n David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/K   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 14:58:19 -08001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) C Subject: Illuminata report:: "HP's Server Business: On the Rebound"a= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0301221458.16f1be8f@posting.google.com>   4 This report is by Kevin Fogarty of Illuminata.  See ; http://www.illuminata.com/cgi-local/pub.cgi?docid=anreboundi  F "We expected HP to need far more than a quarter or so to get its ducksB in a row ... but HP's business-critical server business shows bothB structural and financial improvements already, with the promise of: more on the horizon.  Even amidst the tough market and the7 merger-borne dislocation, BCS is making good progress."n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 04:06:03 +010012 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) Subject: Re: Is that possiblea; Message-ID: <3e2f5c1b.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>e  , David Webb (david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk) wrote:+ > taupin974@hotmail.com (taupin974) writes: 2 > > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) wrote.../ > > > taupin974@hotmail.com (taupin974) writes:@. > > > > So there is only simh which is free ?!9 > > > > Where can i download a version of this software ?  > > > ' > > > Well the source is available frome: > > > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/sources/simhv210-2.zip > > > F > > > Whether there are prebuilt binaries (so you wouldn't need visual% > > > c++ or Mingw gcc) I don't know.  > > ; > > i've tried to built all the files, but it doesn't work.t6 > > i've already read the simh installation procedure. >wC > Unfortunately as I said at the beginning of this thread I haven't C > personally used any of these emulators. Hopefully someone else onnC > the list will be able to give you more guidance. It might help ifu? > you explained how the installation is failing in more detail.A  D The makefile provided with SIMH is only good for Mingw. However, theC sources will build with Visual C++ 5. If anyone is interested in mygE hand-made VC makefile (Ethernet support switched by a macro), drop mey a note.d   cu,t   Martin -- aD                     | Martin Vorlaender    |    VMS & WNT programmer-   Smiert Spamionem  | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deaD                     |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/4                     | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:49:27 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a Subject: Re: Marvel Performance ' Message-ID: <3E2F5837.5C5DCAAE@fsi.net>t   Shane Smith wrote: >  > <Snip> > David Dachtera wrote:p > >John Smith wrote:	 > >> Ad 1 
 > >> -----A > >> Pictures of Florida hurricane evacuation - highways clogged. ( > >> Pictures of earthquake devastation.< > >> Voiceover: "Your business can't avoid the unavoidable." > >> > >> Pictures of explosions.# > >> Pictures of buildings on fire. ? > >> Voiceover: "Your business can't predict the unpredictable"p > >> > >> Pictures of Marvel.; > .> Voiceover: " But your business can choose hardware andIG > >>                    software that make events like these immateriale8 > >>                    to the survival of your company. > >>@ > >>                   Servers and OpenVMS software from HP have? > >>                   been keeping companies in business afters > >> catastrophica+ > >>                   events for 25 years.A > >0# > >Picture: Toaster, bread in slots- > >-3 > >>                   All those 'other' companies,i > >b% > >Picture: Toaster, toast popping upC > > . > >>                   ...they're just toast." > >A7 > >Picture: OpenVMS logo dominant, HP logo sub-dominant. > > ; > >               OpenVMS - when downtime is not an option.r > >n5 > >> Copyright 2003, John Smith. All Rights Reserved.o > >e; > >Additions (C)2003 David J Dachtera, All Rights Reserved.a > : > Picture: Winged pig flying over Battersea power station.  G Oh, My! Have we forgotten "After Dark" already? That's supposed to be a  flying toaster!!!o   -- . David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:01:08 -0400r0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>" Subject: Re: NIST Servers and ACTS/ Message-ID: <3E2EF882.D3A6C79A@vl.videotron.ca>    Paul Repacholi wrote:lC > Is it UTC or GPS time? This will not be a issue for 99% of units.g  K It was confirmed to me that recent GPS all provide UTC time. The correctionI; between UTC and GPS is provided as part of the GPS signals.o  K (for those who do not know: UTC has some leap seconds added here and there.M; GPS doesn't, so over the years, the two are growing apart).o   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:45:49 +0000 (UTC) 5 From: "John Wallace" <johnwallace4@yahoo.dotco.dotuk> " Subject: Re: NIST Servers and ACTS1 Message-ID: <b0ndvs$r76$1@knossos.btinternet.com>   = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ) news:3E2EF882.D3A6C79A@vl.videotron.ca...@ > Paul Repacholi wrote:CE > > Is it UTC or GPS time? This will not be a issue for 99% of units.A >DB > It was confirmed to me that recent GPS all provide UTC time. The
 correction= > between UTC and GPS is provided as part of the GPS signals.h >aF > (for those who do not know: UTC has some leap seconds added here and there.= > GPS doesn't, so over the years, the two are growing apart).e  H slightly related naive question: I recall Pres. Clinton (?) a while backH made some statement about getting rid of GPS selective availability? WasJ there, or is there, an equivalent value reduction for GPS time? In currentJ or unforeseen circumstances is there any way in which the GPS system mightG get disabled, while NTP carries on just fine? Hint: this was reportedlysK enough of a concern a couple of years back for European authorities to lookiH at alternative satellite systems. Don't know whether anything came of it   regards  John.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:40:43 -0400h0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>" Subject: Re: NIST Servers and ACTS/ Message-ID: <3E2F39F7.F27DB631@vl.videotron.ca>g   John Wallace wrote: J > slightly related naive question: I recall Pres. Clinton (?) a while backF > made some statement about getting rid of GPS selective availability?  L More than a statement. It is a done deal with no need to reactivate it. SineN then, there has neen way too muchj consumer electronics sold that rely on GPS.I Many mobile telephone networks rely on GPS at every cell site for precise  timing synchronisation.    > Was A > there, or is there, an equivalent value reduction for GPS time?   N SA would make you drift by up to about 150m. (usually much less). This means aM very very very very samll drift in the clock of satellites, and if you have a2F lock on enough satellites, the average time drift would be negligible.  L > or unforeseen circumstances is there any way in which the GPS system might0 > get disabled, while NTP carries on just fine?   N The USA military supposedly has means to degrade service in selective areas of( the globe without affecting other areas.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 14:49:58 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - Subject: Re: OpenVMS DCL bumper sticker offern3 Message-ID: <14MLGbvHXNLj@eisner.encompasserve.org>?   > Jeff Cameron wrote:n >> tE >> You can now order your own OpenVMS DCL, The Original .COM Bumpera >> Sticker.a >> 3  C    Gee, I wonder what characters <STS> and <CCH> are on a Billybox?c   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:43:27 +0100-9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>n- Subject: Re: OpenVMS DCL bumper sticker offer.' Message-ID: <3E2F1E8F.2A2DF4DD@aaa.com>    David J. Dachtera wrote :    >Jeff Cameron wrote: > I >> Price is $2.50 (USD)if you pay by PayPal, or $3.00 (USD) by check ort >> Money Order.  >d >What did I miss?n >iH >Paypal charges the seller a fee, AFAIK. So, that $2.50 may be more likeD >$1.85 or so by the time you pay the PayPal fee. Then, subtract your >costs.n    B Private PayPal account -> no fees to either send or receive money.  H Business/Primier account -> 0.7% - 2.9%  plus 0.30 USD to receive money.  < So in this case, if Jeff has a "Personal" account, he'll get< 2.50 USD, if he has a Bussines or Premier account, he'll get= between 2.18 and 2.12 USD. And it's *free* to withdraw foundss to an account in a US bank.?  > I'm truly impressed by the servicie by PayPal. Much easier and8 cheaper to pay internationally then asking my local bank	 office...O   Regards  Jan-Erik Sderholm.o (Sweden)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:48:24 GMTp1 From: "Rene Verhaeghe" <rene.verhaeghe@chello.be>nV Subject: Re: OpenVMS FAQ Pending (was: Re: Network Time Protocol (NTP) for OpenVMS ??)6 Message-ID: <YHBX9.101$cV5.50157@amsnews02.chello.com>  K We are using NTP client on all our Alpha VMS servers (VMS 7.2.1 or 2, TCPIPs 5.0 or 5.1).! The NTP server is on a NT server.'  0 "Hoff Hoffman" <hoff@hp.nospam> wrote in message$ news:b0ksms$j4f$2@web1.cup.hp.com... >f? > In article <a3c44af1.0301170843.5e64fb2f@posting.google.com>,e2 dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter) writes: >oA > : I am interested in finding out if anyone uses NTP for keepings > :their system time accurate? > K >   The presence of a discussion of NTP within the OpenVMS Frequently Asked E >   Questions (FAQ) document and a huge discussion of system time andu relatedoD >   topics and the gazillions of NTP-related discussions here in the	 newsgroupeL >   and the occasional discussion of NTP over in the Ask The Wizard area areI >   all being viewed as shining examples of irrelevence, apparently.  :-)D >OK >   Many folks around the world use NTP, and that includes many folks here.  >tH >   But seriously, when posting, please remember to indicate the OpenVMSJ >   platform and the OpenVMS version -- as well as other details listed inK >   the FAQ -- will help us answer your questions.  In this case, the olderlJ >   versions of TCP/IP Services have had correspondingly older versions ofL >   NTP support.  And specific versions of NTP can require specific versionsH >   of OpenVMS.  (Again, the FAQ has details on the sorts of information thatE >   can be required, and why.)  Please also remember to simply search  through B >   the (text-format) FAQ and in other available resources for the
 answer(s),I >   as seeing the same questions over and over and over and over and overo and I >   over and over and over and over and over and over gets rather tedious  andtD >   can also engender flames and other untoward behaviours.  Thanks! >o >t5 > -- regarding the next edition of the OpenVMS FAQ --g > G >   I have incorporated the large collection of updates I've had queuedeF >   for the upcoming edition of the OpenVMS FAQ, and this message willH >   serve as the final boarding call for any discussions or updates thatF >   should be included within the next edition of the FAQ.  If I don'tG >   receive the update by the end of this week, the suggestion, change,lF >   correction, etc, will be safety-sealed and held over for inclusion) >   into a subsequent edition of the FAQ.- >- >  >e( >  ---------------------------- #include' <rtfaq.h> ----------------------------->L >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com, >  --------------------------- pure personal# opinion ---------------------------eG >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comh >x   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:52:30 -0800 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>. Subject: OT-ish: Opteron servers now available0 Message-ID: <01C2C215.44184C20@sulfer.icius.com>  H Opteron servers trickle onto the streets, in limited numbers. Looks likeC the "beachhead" rollout mentioned in an earlier thread. Can I get aa* Hammer VMS to go with that please? PLEASE?  ( http://www.theinquirer.org/?article=7345  H And for those that enjoy a laugh, Houston gives Microsoft a single digit salute:A  H http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2003-01-21-simdesk-c
 over_x.htm  H Apparently they told MS where to shove their Office XP license "upgrade"G and are going with something called SimDesk, for a first year saving oftG $1.6m and $7.1m each year after. It's already a hit in their libraries,oB and it's going to be put in a bunch of their offices. They're alsoG providing it free to low income citizens, apparently. MS are pissed, sorF I am happy. Read to the end, it's quite amazing what MS think they can get away with these days.    Shanen    #####  . #-O-O-# !------------------------------------!. #  L  # !    Cogito, ergo tutti fruiti.      !.  #===#  !------------------------------------!   ###e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:01:11 -0400n0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>2 Subject: Re: OT-ish: Opteron servers now available/ Message-ID: <3E2F0690.CA44E26C@vl.videotron.ca>h   Shane Smith wrote:J > And for those that enjoy a laugh, Houston gives Microsoft a single digit	 > salute:  > J > http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2003-01-21-simdesk-c > over_x.htm  J On what grounds would Microsoft have the legal ability to conduct software audits at its customer sites ?  L Shouldn't that be a question of Microsoft telling police/FBI about potential@ software licence fraud and letting authorities do the auditing ?  K The way I see this, Gates has realised that his initial strategy has runnedlK out of fuel. Microsoft won't grow by leaps and bounds anymore and will justhK become a commodity thing. Its stock was no longer attractive, so he has nowo" relented and announced a dividend.  L But in a knee jerk recation, he also wanted to extract revenus from existingJ customers, and I think that this may have begun its slow downfal. When youI sell commodity, you sell commodity. And with Linux around, Microsoft must@7 continue to lower its prices on possibly lower volumes.>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:20:25 -0800t$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>2 Subject: RE: OT-ish: Opteron servers now available0 Message-ID: <01C2C221.88F62FE0@sulfer.icius.com>  F Don't forget MS's attempt to test the waters for a subscription model.H They actually gave away free copies of XP that had to be "renewed" everyF year to various people on his distribution chain. Apparently it didn't  go down well even at that price.   Shanet   -----Original Message-----7 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca] ) Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 1:01 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh2 Subject: Re: OT-ish: Opteron servers now available     Shane Smith wrote:J > And for those that enjoy a laugh, Houston gives Microsoft a single digit	 > salute:h > J > http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2003-01-21-simdesk-c > over_x.htm  A On what grounds would Microsoft have the legal ability to conduct  software audits at its customer sites ?  B Shouldn't that be a question of Microsoft telling police/FBI about	 potentialT@ software licence fraud and letting authorities do the auditing ?  D The way I see this, Gates has realised that his initial strategy has runnedF out of fuel. Microsoft won't grow by leaps and bounds anymore and will justG become a commodity thing. Its stock was no longer attractive, so he hase now " relented and announced a dividend.  C But in a knee jerk recation, he also wanted to extract revenus from> existingF customers, and I think that this may have begun its slow downfal. When youmD sell commodity, you sell commodity. And with Linux around, Microsoft must7 continue to lower its prices on possibly lower volumes.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 02:42:35 GMTr1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>t2 Subject: Re: OT-ish: Opteron servers now available2 Message-ID: <3E2F564E.BEC134A6@firstdbasource.com>   Shane Smith wrote: > J > Opteron servers trickle onto the streets, in limited numbers. Looks likeE > the "beachhead" rollout mentioned in an earlier thread. Can I get a , > Hammer VMS to go with that please? PLEASE? > * > http://www.theinquirer.org/?article=7345 > J > And for those that enjoy a laugh, Houston gives Microsoft a single digit	 > salute:  > J > http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2003-01-21-simdesk-c > over_x.htm > J > Apparently they told MS where to shove their Office XP license "upgrade"I > and are going with something called SimDesk, for a first year saving of I > $1.6m and $7.1m each year after. It's already a hit in their libraries,kD > and it's going to be put in a bunch of their offices. They're alsoI > providing it free to low income citizens, apparently. MS are pissed, so,H > I am happy. Read to the end, it's quite amazing what MS think they can > get away with these days.u >  > ShaneV >  >  #####0 > #-O-O-# !------------------------------------!0 > #  L  # !    Cogito, ergo tutti fruiti.      !0 >  #===#  !------------------------------------! >   ###>    C Not to defend M$ in any way, but if you read the entire article the>G bidding was rigged such that only SimDesk would win and the one who washH in charge of the bidding resigned afterwards.  and it looks like SimDesk9 has a ways to go to be a business replacement for Office.    -- h Regards,  6 Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 19847 First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:10:05 +1030n% From: Jeremy Begg <jeremy@vsm.com.au>d- Subject: SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/98g* Message-ID: <3E2F47F5.944ECECF@vsm.com.au>   Hi,e  N I've recently received a MicroVAX 3100/98 which I'm configuring before sellingL it on to my customer.  There's a BA356 pedestal with it which has 4 RZ29B-VWI drives in it.  The BA356 is connected to the MicroVAX 3100 via a BA35X-MGtK dual-port adapter module in the BA356; one port is vacant.  So far so good:uM the MicroVAX powers up and sees all the SCSI disks (four in the BA356 and itsi internal CD-ROM drive).z  G I then connected a SCSI cable from the spare port on the BA35X-MG to an M external TLZ09 tape drive.  Now, when I power on the VAX, the self test failstI at step 22 and it won't attempt to boot.  The console SHOW DEVICE commandaF shows only the internal CD-ROM drive.  Connecting or removing the SCSI1 terminator on the tape drive makes no difference.s  4 Has anyone seen this before, and can suggest a cure?   Thanks!n           Jeremy Beggb   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:23:49 -0800l$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>1 Subject: RE: SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/98d0 Message-ID: <01C2C243.6FB22B20@sulfer.icius.com>  E My gut reaction is it's a termination problem. Try sticking an active 7 terminator on the outgoing SCSI connector of the BA356.   H I don't know the specific hardware you're playing with, but often a SCSIG card with two sockets actually only has one channel. If there's nothingxG plugged into one of the sockets though, most cards are bright enough tonA slap internal termination on that end of the chain. When you plugtG something into it though, that termination switches off, and you've gotrH to provide your own at the far end of the cable. When possible, I alwaysD use an active terminator since I have had trouble with passive ones.  F Incidentally, any hardware guys out there care to enlighten me; what's= the actual difference between active and passive terminators?    Shaner   -----Original Message-----, From: Jeremy Begg [mailto:jeremy@vsm.com.au]) Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:40 PMt To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comu- Subject: SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/98-     Hi,v  F I've recently received a MicroVAX 3100/98 which I'm configuring before sellingaC it on to my customer.  There's a BA356 pedestal with it which has 4i RZ29B-VW@ drives in it.  The BA356 is connected to the MicroVAX 3100 via a BA35X-MGE dual-port adapter module in the BA356; one port is vacant.  So far soi good:tE the MicroVAX powers up and sees all the SCSI disks (four in the BA356i and itso internal CD-ROM drive).   G I then connected a SCSI cable from the spare port on the BA35X-MG to anlG external TLZ09 tape drive.  Now, when I power on the VAX, the self testw failsaA at step 22 and it won't attempt to boot.  The console SHOW DEVICE' commandaF shows only the internal CD-ROM drive.  Connecting or removing the SCSI1 terminator on the tape drive makes no difference.r  4 Has anyone seen this before, and can suggest a cure?   Thanks!            Jeremy Beggt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:11:24 -0600w1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e1 Subject: Re: SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/98k' Message-ID: <3E2F5D5C.5D89EB19@fsi.net>o   Jeremy Begg wrote: >  > Hi,  > P > I've recently received a MicroVAX 3100/98 which I'm configuring before sellingN > it on to my customer.  There's a BA356 pedestal with it which has 4 RZ29B-VWK > drives in it.  The BA356 is connected to the MicroVAX 3100 via a BA35X-MGaM > dual-port adapter module in the BA356; one port is vacant.  So far so good:vO > the MicroVAX powers up and sees all the SCSI disks (four in the BA356 and itsg > internal CD-ROM drive).d > I > I then connected a SCSI cable from the spare port on the BA35X-MG to anoO > external TLZ09 tape drive.  Now, when I power on the VAX, the self test failstK > at step 22 and it won't attempt to boot.  The console SHOW DEVICE command H > shows only the internal CD-ROM drive.  Connecting or removing the SCSI3 > terminator on the tape drive makes no difference.- > 6 > Has anyone seen this before, and can suggest a cure? > 	 > Thanks!=  G Only thing I can think of: does the shelf have a terminator card in it?eB You'll find it behind the fan, near slot 1 unless the shelf has noH "jumper" card (that it is, it was previously used as split-bus) in whichA case the terminator will be behind the other fan, near slot 5(?).=   -- = David J. Dachtera- dba DJE Systems- http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 21:11:35 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>@ Subject: Re: Security threats seen big for 2003 ... not for VMS!6 Message-ID: <20030122211135.26000.qmail@gacracker.org>  = On 22 Jan 2003, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:P7 >Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:" >ME >> 27th of March my killfile entry for Bob expires. I wonder if he'llAB >> have reached the top of the brain implant waiting list by then. > ) >::note to self, don't get sick on 27-3::. >a. >I wonder who the `lucky' recipient will be :)  I I said *implant*, there's no evidence anything is available for donation.t  1 I suppose they could use a walnut in the interim.>C (Anybody else remember Spitting Image and "The President's Brain is 
 Missing"?)     Doc. -- g: Time and money, the psychotropics of the business world...K ~ VAXman                                             https://vmsbox.cjb.neto   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:23:06 -0800e$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>@ Subject: RE: Security threats seen big for 2003 ... not for VMS!0 Message-ID: <01C2C211.1E952A80@sulfer.icius.com>  C A true classic. I wonder what they'd make of Bush if that show wereiD still going? Mincemeat, probably. There's just /so/ much material to work with...   Shanen   -----Original Message-----; From: Doc.Cypher [mailto:Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]]s) Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 1:12 PMu To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comy# Cc: mail2news@freedom.gmsociety.orgu@ Subject: Re: Security threats seen big for 2003 ... not for VMS!    = On 22 Jan 2003, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:n7 >Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:f >nE >> 27th of March my killfile entry for Bob expires. I wonder if he'llnB >> have reached the top of the brain implant waiting list by then. >a) >::note to self, don't get sick on 27-3::i >e. >I wonder who the `lucky' recipient will be :)  ? I said *implant*, there's no evidence anything is available forn	 donation.   1 I suppose they could use a walnut in the interim.tC (Anybody else remember Spitting Image and "The President's Brain ist
 Missing"?)     Doc. -- r: Time and money, the psychotropics of the business world... ~ VAXman https://vmsbox.cjb.net   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 02:16:02 GMTs# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t@ Subject: Re: Security threats seen big for 2003 ... not for VMS!H Message-ID: <CfIX9.77856$ej1.52558@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  A "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in messageC0 news:20030122211135.26000.qmail@gacracker.org...? > On 22 Jan 2003, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:=9 > >Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:= > >=A > >> 27th of March my killfile entry for Bob expires. I wonder if  he'll4D > >> have reached the top of the brain implant waiting list by then. > >c+ > >::note to self, don't get sick on 27-3::g > >@0 > >I wonder who the `lucky' recipient will be :) >-A > I said *implant*, there's no evidence anything is available forN	 donation.. >>3 > I suppose they could use a walnut in the interim. E > (Anybody else remember Spitting Image and "The President's Brain ist > Missing"?)    D Was that the episode where Reagan was trying to remember who the new= Chairman of the Soviet Union was and George Schultz was using @ flashcard imagery to prompt him, "Gob" "Hat" "Chef"? And somehow- Reagan turned that into Mr. MouthSheepTongue?a  ' A classic series if there ever was one.e   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 15:21:06 -0600+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) 0 Subject: Re: System uptime - The Uptimes Project3 Message-ID: <bReAKYIbSsie@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  X In article <3E2DEA23.EF87DA43@NelsonUSA.com>, Alan Frisbie <Abuse@NelsonUSA.com> writes: > Jerome wrote:n > , >> A few days ago, I came across this site : >> http://uptimes.wonko.com/ >> DJ >> Since there was no stats for OpenVMS, I decided to write a client in myL >> spare time, and register a few hosts. The maintainer of the site has madeF >> the OpenVMS client available on the site (source and alpha binary).N >> Granted, this is geek stuff, and, as mentioned in the FAQ, it probably doesL >> not mean much about OS stability... However I like the idea and I thought- >> some folks in this NG may like it also ;-)d >> t >> Take a look at:0 >> http://uptimes.wonko.com/stats.php?op=generalN >> ...I'm sure we can make the OpenVMS bar scale much further to the right :-) > G > Thanks for making the VMS client available.   I finally got around toO/ > downloading and running it (trivially easy!).> > J > Now I can claim bragging rights for single-CPU VMS systems: 407 days andJ > counting!   This is not an idle system.   On a typical day, it has 40-50K > users, and the load figure runs 8-20%, unlike so many of the top systems.  > F > As of this afternoon, a VMS cluster (two CPUs) is in positions 6 & 7M > (697 days), and my single Alpha 1000A (Full -- NelsonNameplate) is in 24th.t  F Those two are the servers in Dublin, Ireland, doing some work for the $ London Stock Exchange from the IFSC.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:04:10 -0800F( From: Alan Frisbie <Abuse@NelsonUSA.com>0 Subject: Re: System uptime - The Uptimes Project- Message-ID: <3E2F155A.30585836@NelsonUSA.com>i   Alan Frisbie wrote:h  J > Now I can claim bragging rights for single-CPU VMS systems: 407 days andJ > counting!   This is not an idle system.   On a typical day, it has 40-50K > users, and the load figure runs 8-20%, unlike so many of the top systems.k  L Just for fun, I added another one of our systems to the mix: an old VAX 3300E running VMS v6.2.   It has been up 435 days, but (sadly) is due to be F de-commissioned at the end of January.   But at least for the next tenK days, I can say that I have the top two single-CPU VMS systems on the list!y( (Positions 19 & 27 as of this afternoon)  D > If you're behind a firewall, all you need to do is open a hole forF > outbound (only) UDP packets on port 49153.   You don't have to worry0 > about any inbound packets.   It's really easy.  A I forgot to say that it can also use http, so any system that can K browse the web can join the project.   It even works behind a proxy server.>  D Let's get some more high-uptime VMS systems on the list!   I want toH see lots of VMS systems in the top 30.   Don't bother unless your uptimeH is over 120 days.   There's no sense in dragging the average down.   :-)   Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 23:17:42 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>0 Subject: Re: System uptime - The Uptimes Project6 Message-ID: <20030122231742.29680.qmail@gacracker.org>  > On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Alan Frisbie <Abuse@NelsonUSA.com> wrote:  E >Let's get some more high-uptime VMS systems on the list!   I want to I >see lots of VMS systems in the top 30.   Don't bother unless your uptimevI >is over 120 days.   There's no sense in dragging the average down.   :-)a  A If the CPU usage looks poor for any system in the list, I suspectu1 installing a SETI client will fix this up nicely.      Doc. -- r: Time and money, the psychotropics of the business world...K ~ VAXman                                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:19:37 -040090 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>0 Subject: Re: System uptime - The Uptimes Project/ Message-ID: <3E2F0AE1.6D051CC1@vl.videotron.ca>n   Alan Frisbie wrote:aJ > see lots of VMS systems in the top 30.   Don't bother unless your uptimeJ > is over 120 days.   There's no sense in dragging the average down.   :-)  J Is 120 days now the minimum to be respectable ? I thought it was 100 days.  K My all mightly microvaxc II has only been up for 30 days (did some hardware G changes/maintenance a month ago), and my 3100 workstation 22 days (maderM further changes later). I feel so ashamed :-) I had gotten VELO to be up overwL a year once, but then we got the 1998 ice storm and that broke my record. (9 days of downtime :-)  N How does the uptime software work ? If you have a cluster behind a NAT router,I could any node send those packets and appear to come from the same host ?r   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:45:44 GMTs( From: "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com>0 Subject: Re: System uptime - The Uptimes Project) Message-ID: <saFX9.866$Ve4.241@sccrnsc03>l  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in messages) news:3E2F0AE1.6D051CC1@vl.videotron.ca...b  H > How does the uptime software work ? If you have a cluster behind a NAT router,oK > could any node send those packets and appear to come from the same host ?y  E No, each host needs to have a unique ID registered with Wonko. The IPs. address is not relevant, as far as I can tell.   ML   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:53:55 +0100,9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>:0 Subject: Re: System uptime - The Uptimes Project' Message-ID: <3E2F2103.8455B7A7@aaa.com>h   OK.h. I'll take a look at the SW to upload my stats. Thanks for the hint. Jan-Erik Soderholm   $ sh sys/noproca7 OpenVMS V7.2-1  on node xxxxxx  22-JAN-2003 23:47:38.25. Uptime  296 07:41:51   $ sh cpu$ xxxxxx, a AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB  / This is a truly 24/7/365 system. non-clustered.h       Alan Frisbie wrote:i > F > Let's get some more high-uptime VMS systems on the list!   I want toJ > see lots of VMS systems in the top 30.   Don't bother unless your uptimeJ > is over 120 days.   There's no sense in dragging the average down.   :-) >  > Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 17:13:18 -0600n* From: "Dave Gudewicz" <dgudewicz@core.com>2 Subject: Re: The HP marketing juggernaut grinds on/ Message-ID: <v2u9cnpr3hbob2@corp.supernews.com>i  J I sent e-mail to someone in VMS marketing asking the question below.  I'll% let you know when/if I get an answer.    -- Dave.../  G It is noble to teach oneself, but still nobler to teach others-and lesse trouble. -----Mark Twain-  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageB news:YexX9.74264$ej1.39619@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... > Just a question....: >PG > Has anyone seen *ANY* print advertising for Marvel systems yet? ie. afF > real ad that was paid for in a trade publication, not just a reprint > of an HP press release?m >tD > Most companies time the placement of print advertising to coincide2 > with the press release/launch of their products. >.C > How about any advertising for Marvel/OpenVMS in any form of mediaa  > other than on the HP web site? >tG > Are there *any* plans to advertise Marvel/OpenVMS in mainstream tradetD > publications/ Wall Street Journal? One might think that any time aH > computer company can advertise up to 2-300% performance improvement on= > real-world customer apps they'd take full advantage of thathG > opportunity. After all, opportunities like that tend to come but oncee@ > per decade or so. I suspect I know what the answer is already. >. >    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:32:15 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>42 Subject: Re: The HP marketing juggernaut grinds onH Message-ID: <3SFX9.140289$pDv.3168@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  1 >> "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messagepE >> news:YexX9.74264$ej1.39619@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...  > > Just a question....e > > C > > Has anyone seen *ANY* print advertising for Marvel systems yet?  ie. a'@ > > real ad that was paid for in a trade publication, not just a reprinta > > of an HP press release?d > > F > > Most companies time the placement of print advertising to coincide4 > > with the press release/launch of their products. > >nE > > How about any advertising for Marvel/OpenVMS in any form of media " > > other than on the HP web site? > >aC > > Are there *any* plans to advertise Marvel/OpenVMS in mainstreams tradeoF > > publications/ Wall Street Journal? One might think that any time a; > > computer company can advertise up to 2-300% performancep improvement on? > > real-world customer apps they'd take full advantage of that D > > opportunity. After all, opportunities like that tend to come but onceB > > per decade or so. I suspect I know what the answer is already.    5 "Dave Gudewicz" <dgudewicz@core.com> wrote in message ) news:v2u9cnpr3hbob2@corp.supernews.com...-F > I sent e-mail to someone in VMS marketing asking the question below. I'll' > let you know when/if I get an answer.R    E When asked by a reporter why the 'Pack' did not employ a passing gamemE more often, Vince Lombardi is reported to have said, "There are three:C things that can happen when you put the ball in the air, and two ofo them are bad."  C Apparently HP and VMS Marketing act similarly about advertising VMS @ and Alphaservers, except in this case I think they feel that all outcomes are bad.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:55:34 -0600e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 2 Subject: Re: The HP marketing juggernaut grinds on' Message-ID: <3E2F59A6.769EAFB6@fsi.net>t   John Smith wrote:t > [snip]E > Apparently HP and VMS Marketing act similarly about advertising VMS B > and Alphaservers, except in this case I think they feel that all > outcomes are bad.b  E Haven't you heard? OpenVMS is *CLASSIFIED*! (You can tell folks about " it, but then, you must kill them.)  E We who already know about are grand-fathered in, so no need to worry.l  & ...but, SSSSHHHH!!!! Mum's the word...  D (Actually, my Mum just turned 90 the day after Christmas. Some folks don't know when to quit...)e   -- M David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems. http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 13:55:58 -08004 From: sanders@mail.ci.dallas.tx.us (Steven Anderson)  Subject: xwindows startup option= Message-ID: <d8292cb8.0301221355.7d0213b0@posting.google.com>p  A Our VMS system starts the Xwindows sesion when the system starts.J  B Where can I change some of the Xwindows startup options, I need toF change the ar1 and ar2 options due to problems with the keyboard being used with a KVM switch.   
 Thank you.   Steven Andersonz   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 22:31:03 +0000 (UTC)-, From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)$ Subject: Re: xwindows startup option. Message-ID: <b0n637$f61$2@newslocal.mitre.org>   sanders@mail.ci.dallas.tx.us (Steven Anderson) writes in article <d8292cb8.0301221355.7d0213b0@posting.google.com> dated 22 Jan 2003 13:55:58 -0800:B >Our VMS system starts the Xwindows sesion when the system starts. >eC >Where can I change some of the Xwindows startup options, I need to-G >change the ar1 and ar2 options due to problems with the keyboard beingC >used with a KVM switch.  G By Xwindows, do you mean Decwindows/Motif or some other implementation?g  J The classic place to change the Decwindows startup options for the consoleH is in SYS$MANAGER:DECW$PRIVATE_SERVER_SETUP.COM.  If that doesn't exist,K copy it from DECW$PRIVATE_SERVER_SETUP.TEMPLATE.  I don't know what ar1 andsL ar2 are, or whether this script is even executed if you have your system set< up to run a session automatically as I have never done that.  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orge> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2003 21:31:27 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> Subject: Re: YA OpenVMS Newbie6 Message-ID: <20030122213127.26728.qmail@gacracker.org>  C On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) wrote:n  , >I'm slowly getting familiar with the systemH >management aspects of it; it's not too hard and the online help is veryH >useful, though I do wish I could read the entire text of the help for a9 >command without having traverse the nested layers of it.t   You mean like this...w  = <URL:http://vmsbox.cjb.net/Help?key=V73_Features&explode=yes>-  ( Don't ask it to explode and it won't. :)     Doc. --  : Time and money, the psychotropics of the business world...K ~ VAXman                                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.045 ************************e backF > made some statement about getting rid of GPS selective availability?  L More than a statement. It is a done deal with no need to reactivate it. SineN then, there has neen way too muchj consumer electronics sold tvڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ    vڪ     wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    	wڪ    
wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    
wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ     wڪ    !wڪ    "wڪ    #wڪ    $wڪ    %wڪ    &wڪ    'wڪ    (wڪ    )wڪ    *wڪ    +wڪ    ,wڪ    -wڪ    .wڪ    /wڪ    0wڪ    1wڪ    2wڪ    3wڪ    4wڪ    5wڪ    6wڪ    7wڪ    8wڪ    9wڪ    :wڪ    ;wڪ    <wڪ    =wڪ    >wڪ    ?wڪ    @wڪ    Awڪ    Bwڪ    Cwڪ    Dwڪ    Ewڪ    Fwڪ    Gwڪ    Hwڪ    Iwڪ    Jwڪ    Kwڪ    Lwڪ    Mwڪ    Nwڪ    Owڪ    Pwڪ    Qwڪ    Rwڪ    Swڪ    Twڪ    Uwڪ    Vwڪ    Wwڪ    Xwڪ    Ywڪ    Zwڪ    [wڪ    \wڪ    ]wڪ    ^wڪ    _wڪ    `wڪ    awڪ    bwڪ    cwڪ    dwڪ    ewڪ    fwڪ    gwڪ    hwڪ    iwڪ    jwڪ    kwڪ    lwڪ    mwڪ    nwڪ    owڪ    pwڪ    qwڪ    rwڪ    swڪ    twڪ    uwڪ    vwڪ    wwڪ    xwڪ    ywڪ    zwڪ    {wڪ    |wڪ    }wڪ    ~wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    wڪ    