0 INFO-VAX	Thu, 23 Jan 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 46      Contents:3 Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ? 3 Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ? 1 Re: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium 1 Re: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium 1 RE: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium 1 Re: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium 1 Re: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium  Re: automatic screensaver  Re: automatic screensaver  Re: automatic screensaver P Re: Can we cut the crap? WAS: Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX G Re: copyright (was: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!) G Re: copyright (was: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!) G Re: copyright (was: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!) G Re: copyright (was: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!) 0 Re: Does Hobbyist License Support Multiple CPUs?( Re: Embedding a secret key in executable( Re: Embedding a secret key in executable( Re: Embedding a secret key in executable( Re: Embedding a secret key in executable2 Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!2 Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!2 Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!2 Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!2 Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!2 Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!# Re: Foreign mail question (code 19)  Re: How to Backup OSX  Re: How to Backup OSX  Re: How to Backup OSX  Re: How to Backup OSX  Re: How to Backup OSX  Re: How to Backup OSX  Re: How to Backup OSX 8 How to format data structure containing SCSICLS symbols?< Re: How to format data structure containing SCSICLS symbols?> Re: Illuminata report:: "HP's Server Business: On the Rebound"> Re: Illuminata report:: "HP's Server Business: On the Rebound"+ Re: Independent VMS crash analysis service.  NTP on OpenVMS Re: NTP on OpenVMS) RE: OT-ish: Opteron servers now available ( RE: SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/98( Re: SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/98( RE: SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/98. Re: SDCL - Structured Digital Command Language> Re: shadow-set consistency on simultaneous loss of all members> Re: shadow-set consistency on simultaneous loss of all members@ Re: Storage network with VMS cluster and other OSses, ESS, EMC2? Re: VMS 7.2-1, patches and DCE VMS source listings ?  Re: xwindows startup option  Re: YA OpenVMS Newbie  Re: YA OpenVMS Newbie  Re: YA OpenVMS Newbie   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:42:29 -0000 3 From: "Tom Wade" <t.wade@vms.eurokom.removespam.ie> < Subject: Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ?* Message-ID: <b0ov29$3v4$1@kermit.esat.net>  5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message / news:b0m5o8$r17c8$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de...   B > This has been a constant theme ever since 1980 when Byte printed! > their headline, "Is UNIX Dead?"   ? Wishful thinking.  Unix, like the poor, will always be with us.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------I Tom Wade    | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie (all domain mailers). G EuroKom     | X400:  g=tom;s=wade;o=eurokom;p=eurokom;a=eirmail400;c=ie & 30, Dale Rd | Tel:   +353 (1) 278-7878& Stillorgan  | Fax:   +353 (1) 278-78793 Co Dublin   | Disclaimer:  This is not a disclaimer @ Ireland     | Tip:         "Friends don't let friends do Unix !"   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:46:15 -0800 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> < Subject: Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX ?8 Message-ID: <20030123084615.49644fae.mathog@caltech.edu>  " On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:45:44 -0500B "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> wrote:   > N > While the title is nonsense, the underlying argument (I think) is that LinuxL > sales volume is reaching critical mass, and that Linux will be THE UNIX of > the future.   ? Or the LinuxES of the future.  Debian, Redhat, Suse, etc.  It's  deja vu all over again.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:41:20 -0800 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> : Subject: Re: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium8 Message-ID: <20030123084120.5d15b920.mathog@caltech.edu>   On 21 Jan 2003 07:28:17 -0800 ) baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) wrote:   8 > http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2129026,00.html > / > AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium   3 I expect AlphaServer users would generally be a lot 1 better off to swim hard for the lifeboats than to 4 reach for any of the lines dangling from the Itanic.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:34:05 -0500 A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> : Subject: Re: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium, Message-ID: <3e3027b1_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  4 "David Mathog" <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message2 news:20030123084120.5d15b920.mathog@caltech.edu... > On 21 Jan 2003 07:28:17 -0800 + > baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) wrote:  > : > > http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2129026,00.html > > 1 > > AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium  > 5 > I expect AlphaServer users would generally be a lot 3 > better off to swim hard for the lifeboats than to 6 > reach for any of the lines dangling from the Itanic. >   J Despite carping from the disgruntled, and those who despise Intel and haveI hung their hopes on AMD - you can buy a 1Ghz Itanium2 system *today* that L will deliver performance in the top tier of 64-bit systems (it may not be anJ EV7, but it's also not as bad as a Sparc).  Customers concerned by the FUDJ can stick with Alpha for quite a while, until they can see and touch a VMS8 system on Itanium2 with the price/performance they need.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:51:30 -0800 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>: Subject: RE: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium0 Message-ID: <01C2C2C5.0A3163B0@sulfer.icius.com>  5 >"David Mathog" <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message 3 >news:20030123084120.5d15b920.mathog@caltech.edu...   >> On 21 Jan 2003 07:28:17 -0800, >> baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) wrote: >>; >> > http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2129026,00.html  >> >2 >> > AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium >>6 >> I expect AlphaServer users would generally be a lot4 >> better off to swim hard for the lifeboats than to7 >> reach for any of the lines dangling from the Itanic.  >> > K >Despite carping from the disgruntled, and those who despise Intel and have J >hung their hopes on AMD - you can buy a 1Ghz Itanium2 system *today* thatM >will deliver performance in the top tier of 64-bit systems (it may not be an K >EV7, but it's also not as bad as a Sparc).  Customers concerned by the FUD K >can stick with Alpha for quite a while, until they can see and touch a VMS 9 >system on Itanium2 with the price/performance they need.   H Damn, I hate to step on one of the rare reasonable posts in this thread,D but it's the last half of the last sentence. I can't leave it, sorry< Fred. I have no faith in the Itanium getting to a reasonableB price/performance point. That would require high volume sales, andE they've already cut the highest volume market out of the roadmap; the E desktop. Does the expression "niche market" sound familiar? >>Cough<< D Alpha/VMS >>Cough<<. AMD have the better strategy, plain and simple.# They also may have the better chip.    Shane    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:11:12 -0500 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> : Subject: Re: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium$ Message-ID: <3e303041$1@news.si.com>  F >Any papers proving that Intel linked it's payments to Compaq not just porting K >it's Operating systems to IA64 but to either stopping development of Alpha  orI >to committing to only run those OSs on IA64 rather than on both would be  >equally as damaging for Intel.   J Any such papers, if they existed at all, I'm sure have long been shredded. --  I Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot com 5 Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM. @ 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991 8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:24:53 -0500 A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> : Subject: Re: AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium. Message-ID: <3e303379$1_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  1 "Shane Smith" <ssmith@icius.com> wrote in message * news:01C2C2C5.0A3163B0@sulfer.icius.com...7 > >"David Mathog" <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message 5 > >news:20030123084120.5d15b920.mathog@caltech.edu... " > >> On 21 Jan 2003 07:28:17 -0800. > >> baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) wrote: > >>= > >> > http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2129026,00.html  > >> >4 > >> > AlphaServer users given lifeline till Itanium > >>8 > >> I expect AlphaServer users would generally be a lot6 > >> better off to swim hard for the lifeboats than to9 > >> reach for any of the lines dangling from the Itanic.  > >> > > H > >Despite carping from the disgruntled, and those who despise Intel and haveL > >hung their hopes on AMD - you can buy a 1Ghz Itanium2 system *today* thatL > >will deliver performance in the top tier of 64-bit systems (it may not be anI > >EV7, but it's also not as bad as a Sparc).  Customers concerned by the  FUD I > >can stick with Alpha for quite a while, until they can see and touch a  VMS ; > >system on Itanium2 with the price/performance they need.  > J > Damn, I hate to step on one of the rare reasonable posts in this thread,F > but it's the last half of the last sentence. I can't leave it, sorry> > Fred. I have no faith in the Itanium getting to a reasonableD > price/performance point. That would require high volume sales, andG > they've already cut the highest volume market out of the roadmap; the G > desktop. Does the expression "niche market" sound familiar? >>Cough<< F > Alpha/VMS >>Cough<<. AMD have the better strategy, plain and simple.% > They also may have the better chip.   F Intanium2 systems already have excellent price/performance relative toL equivalent performing systems out there.  I have faith in Intel's ability toL drive pricing of chips down.  Itanium2 volume may not be high yet, but we'll see what happens.   E AMD's wart on an 8-bit archtecture to further extend it to 64 bits is I interesting *only* if such binary compatability is useful to you.  In the C Windows space, you may well be right.  Certainly the lack of binary L compatability between VAX and Alpha helped limit the Alpha success (how manyH of you still have VAX systems?).  But binary compatability is completely0 meaningless in terms of VMS, or even UNIX/LINUX.  H The FUD on AMD is that they may not survive long enough to make x86-64 aK success.  They are losing marketshare and bleeding red ink.  The 64-bitness K isn't going to make a hill of beans difference in the volume market.  It'll H be price and performance in particular in the single CPU space - becauseI that is where the volume is.  The spiffy scaleable server stuff they have H designed is nice, but they really don't have a server vendor lined up to, make and support mission critical computing.  K In fact, AMD sounds to me a lot like the old DEC "if we build it, they will H come" - great engineering, but perhaps not enough business sense.  Well,A sometimes they don't, or by the time they do -- they're too late.   F From a pure VMS perspective - the hand we've been dealt is IA64.  ThatF turned out to be real good, since Intel, HP, Microsoft, and others hadL already built the infrastructure needed to support enterprise class systems.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:21:23 -0500 A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> " Subject: Re: automatic screensaver. Message-ID: <3e300873$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:8HW+ugHme0jC@eisner.encompasserve.org... B > In article <3e2f090f$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge"1 <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes: 0 > > <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message. > > news:00A1A5A4.4421D46D@SendSpamHere.ORG...E > >> In article <3e2ed9dc$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" 5 > > <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes:  > >> >L > >> >Uh.  How about installing V7.3-1 and Motif V1.2-6?  It's there.  After > > all,L > >> >V6.2 is like what - 7 years old?  Lots of improvments between then and > > now. > >>7 > >> Except for something to replace DisplayPostscript!  > >> > > H > > You gotta learn to let go ;-)  Display Postscript is dead, long live Adobe.F > > Unless you are using it as a programming interface, use some other display  > > app, like ghostscript. > 8 > So Fred, what is your solution for DOCUMENT/GRAPHICS ? > 6 > Conventional wisdom seems to be VMS V7.2 or earlier.  4 A replacement for what you are doing in document ;-)  J Display postscript was killed by Adobe - it's not like we wanted to do it.J We seldom withdraw features unless we have no real choice.  You can chooseJ to stay with an OS version that will eventually be hard to get support forL (say, like V6.2 from the above poster - some 9 years or so old).  Or you can= figure out how to move forward with your document production.   I If you want to stay with increasingly old versions of VMS - heck I'm sure G there are still happy V4.7 users out there - that's fine - but don't be 4 complaining when new things aren't available for it.  G I added the screen saver extension and enabled it in CDE for V1.2-6 and  later.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2003 10:31:16 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) " Subject: Re: automatic screensaver3 Message-ID: <xwBHqNpoU2QI@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <3e300873$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes:  9 >> So Fred, what is your solution for DOCUMENT/GRAPHICS ?  >>7 >> Conventional wisdom seems to be VMS V7.2 or earlier.  > 6 > A replacement for what you are doing in document ;-)  H What other tool is available to generate proprietary Bookreader format ?  L > Display postscript was killed by Adobe - it's not like we wanted to do it.  + But it was not replaced by VMS Development.   C I know of at least one third party (with whom I have no connection) > that proposed a replacement for the Display Postscript engine.  E I realize that VMS Development has priorities, but in this case those H priorities did not land on the side of preserving existing capabilities.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:22:38 -0500 A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> " Subject: Re: automatic screensaver, Message-ID: <3e3024e0_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:xwBHqNpoU2QI@eisner.encompasserve.org... B > In article <3e300873$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>, "Fred Kleinsorge"1 <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> writes:  > ; > >> So Fred, what is your solution for DOCUMENT/GRAPHICS ?  > >>9 > >> Conventional wisdom seems to be VMS V7.2 or earlier.  > > 8 > > A replacement for what you are doing in document ;-) > J > What other tool is available to generate proprietary Bookreader format ? >   K The don't use bookreader!  Times have changed.  Generate HTML, or something  else.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:11:12 GMT  From: rivie@RIvie.no.domain Y Subject: Re: Can we cut the crap? WAS: Re: (UNIX is OVER) was  . . . Re: Alpha for HP UX  2 Message-ID: <slrnb2j18f.3ct.rivie@RIvie.no.domain>  @ In article <3E2F113C.9030503@MMaz.com>, Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: > [snipp] the likes of CQ  > Palmer [snip] ' >  axing of Alpha, CQ's selling of the   > jewels [snip]   ) Palmer has a ham radio license? Who knew?  --  
 Roger Ivie rivie@ridgenet.net   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2003 05:37:25 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)P Subject: Re: copyright (was: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!)= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0301230537.54969b70@posting.google.com>   Z "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<rhHX9.2150$rM2.907@rwcrnsc53>... > Terms and Conditions of Use  >  > Participation and Conduct  > L > During the term of this Agreement, InfoWorld grants to you a terminable atL > will non-exclusive license to use and display the Service, and to downloadH > materials available through the Service, all solely for your personal,I > non-commercial use. You may not transfer, assign, sub-license, lend, or M > re-sell the rights granted under this license. You may not link to our site I > if you sell ads on your site or you charge a subscription fee to use or L > access your site. No deep linking directly to articles is permitted if youN > sell ads on your site or you charge a subscription fee to use or access yourL > site. Any use in violation of these limits shall constitute a violation ofL > the terms of this license. Absolutely no framing of our site is permitted. > 0 > (note that I didn't link to an _article_ here) > > > Did you get permission to post the Infoworld articles, Boob? >  > 2 > 'Nuff said. Make a bigger fool of yourself, Bob. >  > ML  B thank goodness you didn't pick the legal profession ... if you can@ comprehend what you read, which does not seem to be the case, it? states for "non-commercial" use, and you may not link form your @ own personal site if you "sell ads or charge a fee", which means@ a commercial site ... this board is "FREE" and does not charge aB fee, not to mention I am posting but I don't even own the site ...= someone is making a fool out of themself, and it's not me ...    ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2003 07:57 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) P Subject: Re: copyright (was: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!)- Message-ID: <23JAN200307575034@gerg.tamu.edu>   j In article <d7791aa1.0301230537.54969b70@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes...[ }"Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<rhHX9.2150$rM2.907@rwcrnsc53>...  }> Terms and Conditions of Use }>   }> Participation and Conduct }>  M }> During the term of this Agreement, InfoWorld grants to you a terminable at M }> will non-exclusive license to use and display the Service, and to download I }> materials available through the Service, all solely for your personal, J }> non-commercial use. You may not transfer, assign, sub-license, lend, orN }> re-sell the rights granted under this license. You may not link to our siteJ }> if you sell ads on your site or you charge a subscription fee to use orM }> access your site. No deep linking directly to articles is permitted if you O }> sell ads on your site or you charge a subscription fee to use or access your M }> site. Any use in violation of these limits shall constitute a violation of M }> the terms of this license. Absolutely no framing of our site is permitted.  }>  1 }> (note that I didn't link to an _article_ here)  }>  ? }> Did you get permission to post the Infoworld articles, Boob?  }>   }>  3 }> 'Nuff said. Make a bigger fool of yourself, Bob.  }>   }> ML  } C }thank goodness you didn't pick the legal profession ... if you can A }comprehend what you read, which does not seem to be the case, it @ }states for "non-commercial" use, and you may not link form yourA }own personal site if you "sell ads or charge a fee", which means A }a commercial site ... this board is "FREE" and does not charge a C }fee, not to mention I am posting but I don't even own the site ... > }someone is making a fool out of themself, and it's not me ...  E You completly miss the part where you didn't link to the article, you C posted it. The terms above let you use it yourself, they do not let A you post it for others anywhere (commercial or otherwise). If you B had posted a link to the article, it would have been fine. But you were too stupid to do that.   F Go back to your lawyer freind and tell him that you didn't discuss theF article in public, or post only small pieces of it. Instead you postedD the whole thing. Then ask him if *that* is legal. If he says yes, he0 needs to be disbarred because he is incompetant.  G It is called "copyright" because it is the right to copy. Did the owner J of the right to produce copies of the article (i.e. the copyright holder),L or an assigned agent thereof, give you permission to post it? Of course not.J Therefore what you did was in violation of coyright law, and thus illegal.  @ You did an illegal thing. Stop trying to lie your way out of it.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:48:25 GMT ( From: "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com>P Subject: Re: copyright (was: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!)+ Message-ID: <ZgTX9.9261$6G4.3822@sccrnsc02>   5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message 7 news:d7791aa1.0301230537.54969b70@posting.google.com... D > thank goodness you didn't pick the legal profession ... if you canB > comprehend what you read, which does not seem to be the case, itA > states for "non-commercial" use, and you may not link form your B > own personal site if you "sell ads or charge a fee", which meansB > a commercial site ... this board is "FREE" and does not charge aD > fee, not to mention I am posting but I don't even own the site ...? > someone is making a fool out of themself, and it's not me ...   L You don't seem to read very well or suffer from selective comprehension. YouL must have missed the part where permission is needed in any case. I'll quote0 it again so as to not tax your meager abilities:7 http://www.infoworld.com/aboutus/t_about_infoworld.html    COPYRIGHT AND TERMS OF USE  J All material appearing in InfoWorld and on InfoWorld.com is copyrighted byG International Data Group and *cannot be reused without permission.* The J Copyright Guidelines explains the legal options for using this copyrighted9 material, including Reprints, Permissions, and Licensing.   K What part of "All material" and "cannot be reused without permission" don't ? you understand? Did you get permission, Bob? I didn't think so.   ( Or from the "copyright guidelines" page:< http://www.infoworld.com/aboutus/t_copyright.html#photocopy1  < May I use an excerpt or quote that was printed in InfoWorld?  F From time to time, readers and vendors alike want to use excerpts fromG InfoWorld articles in their own material. *Permission for such usage is L required.* Please e-mail the quote(s) you'd like to use along with the issueA date, page number, or URL on which the quote appeared and a brief G description of how you plan to use the quote to the Copyright Clearance K Center. See below on how to contact the Copyright Clearance Center. For use H in magazines, newspapers, advertisements, and on the Internet/Web sites,H please contact copyright@infoworld.com directly. Include the information below in your request.  K "Permission for such usage is required." Could it be any clearer than that,  even to you, Bob?   1 Or, from the bottom of Computerworld's main page:   H Copyright  2003 Computerworld Inc. All rights reserved. Reproduction inL whole or in part in any form or medium without express written permission of! Computerworld Inc. is prohibited.   L Bear in mind that while Infoworld and Computerworld are quite explicit aboutK how their copyrighted material can be used, these guidelines would apply to L any site that indicates a copyright for the material on that site. Your onlyH loophole is that since you're not making any money on it, it's not worthK their time to sic a lawyer on you. But that doesn't make it legal, which is  the crux of this "discussion."  J Continue to make an ass of yourself, Bob. Your complete lack of ability toF comprehend is quite amusing. I can't wait to see what incomprehensibleK drivel you choke up next. You've lost this one, but you can't admit it, but & you'll go on digging your hole anyway.   ML   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:07:01 -0500 $ From: "rob kas" <rob@netcarrier.net>P Subject: Re: copyright (was: RE: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!)/ Message-ID: <v30c7moqo96a7c@corp.supernews.com>   L > Continue to make an ass of yourself, Bob. Your complete lack of ability toH > comprehend is quite amusing. I can't wait to see what incomprehensibleI > drivel you choke up next. You've lost this one, but you can't admit it,  but ( > you'll go on digging your hole anyway. >  >   !     Bob - C     Drivel Prediction   $         1) VMS has the best Security#         2) VMS will be here forever -         3) It's right Because I said so......   ;               mmmm How would you like to work for this guy?     1                                               Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:46:00 GMT # From: ualski <ualski@earthlink.net> 9 Subject: Re: Does Hobbyist License Support Multiple CPUs? - Message-ID: <3E2FF25B.E41C70F0@earthlink.net>    Michael Rice wrote:  > E > I may get access to a 2 CPU Alphaserver for home.  Will the OpenVMS I > hobbyist license cover this and allow me to do SMP or does it only work  > for single CPU systems?   F The license has no crippled features. The agreement is it is for hobbyP use only. Certainly works for 6440 & VAX Station 3540. (Both are 4 CPU systems).   -- Aaron Sliwinski   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:15:13 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>1 Subject: Re: Embedding a secret key in executable ) Message-ID: <3E2FC0B1.D57C9E4A@127.0.0.1>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Goal: K > At software install time, system manager enters some random digit that is O > embedded as a binary value (encryption key)  in the executable. (install will O > use link to put everything together). I want that value to be totally lost in U > the .EXE file so that ANA/IMAGE would not reveal some global symbol name and value.  >  > Is this possible ?  , If I tell you, it won't be a secret will it?  B OK, write a little bit of macro with a writable PSECT, install theD imaged writable, do the stuff to the PSECT, de-install the image andG exit. Modifications should be on disk where you're PSECT mapped to. One E way key hashing to unlock the writing mechanism in the image, and the G key itself should in theory be possible, and it should just look like a  data area with no code.   G Using different PSECTS, using your own encryption of the contents, etc. 
 up to you!  / * Please eat this USENET ARTICLE / mail * ! ;-)    --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:41:37 +0100 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>1 Subject: Re: Embedding a secret key in executable ) Message-ID: <3E301B41.3010807@vajhoej.dk>    JF Mezei wrote: K > At software install time, system manager enters some random digit that is O > embedded as a binary value (encryption key)  in the executable. (install will O > use link to put everything together). I want that value to be totally lost in U > the .EXE file so that ANA/IMAGE would not reveal some global symbol name and value.  >  > Is this possible ?   100% safe: no.  ( Safe against simple ANAL/IMAGE use: yes.  2 Let your install program store the value emcrypted* and have your EXE contain decryption code.  B Then they will need ANAL/IMAGE to get the value and a disassembler% (and a lot of time) to get the value.    Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2003 10:40:45 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 1 Subject: Re: Embedding a secret key in executable 3 Message-ID: <AJ+7YSKIRej0@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <3E2F7BCF.660822E6@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: > Goal: K > At software install time, system manager enters some random digit that is O > embedded as a binary value (encryption key)  in the executable. (install will O > use link to put everything together). I want that value to be totally lost in U > the .EXE file so that ANA/IMAGE would not reveal some global symbol name and value.  >  > Is this possible ?  = 	Possible, sure.  Better still would be to stuff something in  	a separate file.   A 	Back in the day, here is what I came up with.  AIX specific, you B 	can pull CPU numbers with AIX (perhaps you can now with f$getenv)    /                 1) To generate a license string :                 2) To verify a previously generated string                 3) To exit                   Number: 1 H         Please enter the expiration date of the license [yymmdd]: 1002187         Please enter the last 4 digits of the CPU: 4323 7         Please enter the number of licenses [1-999]: 20   9         Generated license string is: INFDZO-QTRPLH-OOLHIZ     /                 1) To generate a license string :                 2) To verify a previously generated string                 3) To exit                   Number: 2 D Please enter the coded string (include dashes): INFDZO-QTRPLH-OOLHIZ         The CPU is: 4323         Key being used is: 19 '         License date expiration: 100218 +         Site licensed for >> 20 << licenses   6 	Some neat tricks in there.  Use the same information:                   Number: 1 H         Please enter the expiration date of the license [yymmdd]: 1002187         Please enter the last 4 digits of the CPU: 4323 7         Please enter the number of licenses [1-999]: 20   9         Generated license string is: ECEOUK-CYQPJW-LFKWBW     /                 1) To generate a license string :                 2) To verify a previously generated string                 3) To exit                   Number: 2 D Please enter the coded string (include dashes): ECEOUK-CYQPJW-LFKWBW         The CPU is: 4323         Key being used is: 175'         License date expiration: 100218 +         Site licensed for >> 20 << licenses   8 	The beauty here is you can let them edit LICENSE.DAT onC 	their own as you generate trial keys, or permanent keys.  A vendor > 	here has a key that expires 2030.  Close enough to permanent.  C 	Not a whole lot of C code for that part.  Obviously other portions : 	tracking current active users, etc.  that wasn't my part.  @ 	The algorithm is sophisticated enough that it won't be cracked.; 	There isn't enough information to crack it (bold assertion  	on my part, eh?)   " 	You want it?  Drop me an email.     				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:35:56 -0800 2 From: "Randy Park" <rjpark@mindspring.nospaam.com>1 Subject: Re: Embedding a secret key in executable 2 Message-ID: <b0pcms$g3v$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>  ; JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ) news:3E2F7BCF.660822E6@vl.videotron.ca...  > Goal: K > At software install time, system manager enters some random digit that is J > embedded as a binary value (encryption key)  in the executable. (install willL > use link to put everything together). I want that value to be totally lost inJ > the .EXE file so that ANA/IMAGE would not reveal some global symbol name
 and value. >  > Is this possible ?  8 Are you interested in using a license key system that is9 not LMF?  If so, I have a system that has been in use for = over 12 years.  E-mail me and I'll give you more information.    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:11:39 +0000 (UTC) + From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) ; Subject: Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains! + Message-ID: <b0om5r$6a6$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   h In article <d7791aa1.0301221608.716c7ce0@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:p >"Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<PxkX9.654114$GR5.462966@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>...@ >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message, >> news:3E2DBA1D.D8A5B340@vl.videotron.ca...E >> > Was it you who reminded him of the First ammendment in the USA ?  >>  K >> No. That was not me. If he wants to author his own article, he's free to J >> post it anywhere he wants. He's not free to redistribute other's works, >> irrespective of profit. >> eL >> > One may disagree with what Mr Ceculski says. But I have no problem with >>  him H >> > posting his opinions. If you want people with whom you do not share >>  opinionsL >> > to stop posting, perhaps you should go back in time, become a member of >>  the N >> > soviet union's communist party, enjoy all the benefits of luxuries, while@ >> > being able to silence anyone whose opinions you don't like. >> 2? >> He's not posting his opinions. He's posting everyone else's.n >BB >Sorry Mark, I just talked to an attorney friend of mine, and onceA >it's publically posted by the author, as long as you don't reuse @ >it for gain or claim it as your own (plagerize), then like J.F.= >said, the first ammendment guarantees the right for it to be ? >discussed in a public forum ... are you ready to start burningi@ >all the books you don't like yet?  Someone else did that in the, >1930's and we all know what that led to ...  N At least in the UK I believe there is a difference between quoting small partsC from a published article for illustration in discussions about that M article as against quoting the whole (or a substantial part) of that article.nE The former is allowed whilst the latter breaches the original authorsoK copyright. Of course exactly when the line is crossed is what keeps lawyersu	 employed.   L The fact that I can borrow a book from a public library does not give me theG right to make copies of that book and hand them out on a street corner.c  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2003 05:43:25 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski); Subject: Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!S= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0301230543.2c852209@posting.google.com>l   winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote in message news:<00A1A5BB.623ED15C@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>...j > In article <d7791aa1.0301221603.77322742@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:K > >"Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<PxkX9.654114> hM > >> No. That was not me. If he wants to author his own article, he's free toeL > >> post it anywhere he wants. He's not free to redistribute other's works, > >> irrespective of profit. > >> -N > >> > One may disagree with what Mr Ceculski says. But I have no problem with >  himJ > >> > posting his opinions. If you want people with whom you do not share >  opinionsVN > >> > to stop posting, perhaps you should go back in time, become a member of >  theP > >> > soviet union's communist party, enjoy all the benefits of luxuries, whileB > >> > being able to silence anyone whose opinions you don't like. > >>   > >pM > >I think that there is a question of fair use here. Posting an article in a N > >newsgroup does not invalidate the copyright of an article. The writer stillM > >maintains rights over the article and ayone wanting to use it commercially * > >would still need to contact the author. > >mO > >But if an article is posted in a public forum, doesn't it become implicitely- > >publicly distributable ?5 > > 8 > >(distributable does not change who owns the article). > >  > >n > >ANSWER THE QUESTION MARK! > L > I'm not Mark, and I'm not a lawyer, but as a writer I've got some interestA > in copyright.  The answer (except in the not-applicable case ofuL > work-for-hire) is that the guy who wrote the thing holds the rights to it,D > and can sell or distribute those rights as he wishes.  He can giveH > permission to Ken F to post it on www.openvms.org and retain all otherK > rights.  Because it's posted in one place, it's not automatically okay tohB > quote it in its entirety in some other place without permission. > J > The fact that nobody makes any money from quoting it on a newsgroup, andM > that there's little likelihood of Terry's pieces getting collected and soldaM > in book form later means that nobody has any real incentive to get a lawyerhK > to write a cease and desist letter, so you're unlikely to get in any real K > trouble over it (vs, say, posting Dave Barry columns in their entirety tonJ > Usenet, when his copyright will be vigorously defended, and if you don'tM > cease and desist when you get the letter, you're likely to get sued).  But eI > just because you probably won't get in trouble doesn't mean it's eitherS > legal or polite. > L > And about the "fair use" thing, "fair use" is quite limited, and I know ofN > no legal interpretation which considers quoting the work in its entirety to  > be "fair use." > 	 > -- Alan  >   A once you post "publically", that article can be linked to, quotedBB and read for discussion, it can not be linked to from a commercial@ site that "you" own, nor can you claim it as your own ... if you= don't want it referenced, then don't post it in a free publice forum ... that's the law ...   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2003 05:47:05 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski); Subject: Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!0= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0301230547.67a6f843@posting.google.com>   ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E2CB1FE.8A15BC71@fsi.net>... > Bob Ceculski wrote:  > > ` > > "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<cHXW9.67447$kH3.9946@sccrnsc03>...; > > > "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message = > > > news:d7791aa1.0301201010.54c780ca@posting.google.com...s? > > > > HP's AlphaServer GS1280 Launch: A MARVELous DevelopmentaJ > > > > Posted by Terry Shannon (Sunday January 19 2003 @ 03:51PM EST) [ ] > > >eR > > > Bob, I really don't think that Terry is going to appreciate your posting hisO > > > subscription newsletter. Notice that it IS copyrighted. I'm a subscriber,h  > > > and I don't appreciate it. > > >/O > > > >(c) 2003 by Terry C. Shannon, IT Consultant and Publisher, Shannon Knows3	 > > > HPC0 > > >r > > > ML > > 9 > > and if you don't belive me Mark, here is the link ...f > > = > > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=03/01/19/9517580  > F > It's not a question of whether he believes you or not. If you *MUST*I > scrape that hard for content, well, you may want to think twice or morebF > before you post. If you've that little to say, discretion may be the1 > better part of valor (to quote the old saying).e > 	 > FWIW...n  = Terry has posted an in-depth article on EV7, and I pointed ite> out to this board for reference and discussion ... many others: do the same all the time here ... so I guess everyone else< on this board better stop posting ... or are you a communist also?s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:17:00 +010026 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>; Subject: Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!a) Message-ID: <3E30076C.1020106@vajhoej.dk>e   JF Mezei wrote:c > "Mark E. Levy" wrote:uL >>you certainly don't understand chip technology. Do yourself a favor, Boob,K >>just shut up. VMS has a better chance of survival without idiots like yousJ >>promoting it. Like they say, with friends like you, who needs enemies... > B > Was it you who reminded him of the First ammendment in the USA ?  6 I thougth that was about the rigth to publish your own; opinions not to publish someone elses copyrigthed material.e  L > I think that there is a question of fair use here. Posting an article in aM > newsgroup does not invalidate the copyright of an article. The writer stillaL > maintains rights over the article and ayone wanting to use it commercially) > would still need to contact the author.3   That is not how copyrigth work.m  N > But if an article is posted in a public forum, doesn't it become implicitely > publicly distributable ?   Definatetly not.  M > One may disagree with what Mr Ceculski says. But I have no problem with himuN > posting his opinions. If you want people with whom you do not share opinionsM > to stop posting, perhaps you should go back in time, become a member of thehK > soviet union's communist party, enjoy all the benefits of luxuries, whilet= > being able to silence anyone whose opinions you don't like.a   ????  ? As far as I know then one of the countries that has a "relaxed"s  attitude top copyrigth is China.  W > Usenet was created for freedom of expression by everyone, and that MUST be respected.I  	 Ofcourse.   D Bob are free to post whatever he write. Not what someone else write.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:19:36 +0100e6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>; Subject: Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains! ) Message-ID: <3E300808.3070906@vajhoej.dk>e   Bob Ceculski wrote:oC > once you post "publically", that article can be linked to, quoted"D > and read for discussion, it can not be linked to from a commercialB > site that "you" own, nor can you claim it as your own ... if you? > don't want it referenced, then don't post it in a free public> > forum ... that's the law ...  @ As it has already be pointed out several time, themn you did not< not link to Terrys article - you posted it. Different thing.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:22:24 +0100>6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>; Subject: Re: EV7 hits, blows away Sun, IBM, 2-3x VMS gains!e) Message-ID: <3E3008B0.4090907@vajhoej.dk>    Bob Ceculski wrote:b? > Terry has posted an in-depth article on EV7, and I pointed itc1 > out to this board for reference and discussion    / No you did not. You posted the article itself !C  = >                                             ... many otherst# > do the same all the time here ...c  B People post links and fragments all the time. Not entire articles.  @ >                                       so I guess everyone else> > on this board better stop posting ... or are you a communist > also?a  ; If you follow internation trade negotoations, then you will ; know that it is the communist countries that often violatesi copyrigths !   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:14:58 -0500 + From: Craig Lombardi <lombardi@ergosol.com>o, Subject: Re: Foreign mail question (code 19)+ Message-ID: <3E301502.8CF88E13@ergosol.com>m  1 >A few questions about the foreign mail protocol:i > ? >I get an function code value of 19  which I do not know about.i  K We included debug function tracing while developing a foreign mail protocol J interface for our RamPage wireless messaging software.  Here is the outputJ before and after the tracing is enabled.  More about function 19 after the listing below:   --- Without Tracing ---n  
 MAIL> SEND To:     RAMPAGE%LOMBARDI CC:  Subj:   Hello World!H Enter your message below. Press CTRL/Z when complete, or CTRL/C to quit: Hi!l [CTRL/Z]   MAIL> [CTRL/Z]   --- With Tracing ---   $ ASSIGN "Y" RP_TRACE. $ MAIL  
 MAIL> SEND To:     RAMPAGE%LOMBARDIN %RAMPAGE-I-FMPFUNC, Foreign protocol context 914912, function 0, 11 arguments.- %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, Function tracing enabled.  %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, OUT_CONNECT3 %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, Pager List Setup processing...k/ %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, Pager List Setup complete..M %RAMPAGE-I-FMPFUNC, Foreign protocol context 914912, function 1, 4 arguments.u %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, OUT_LINE.O %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, From:   LOMBARDI     "Craig S. Lombardi - Product Manager" M %RAMPAGE-I-FMPFUNC, Foreign protocol context 914912, function 2, 5 arguments.t %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, OUT_CHECK/ %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, Validating entry: LOMBARDIl2 %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, (1) Pager LOMBARDI validated. CC:i Subj:   Hello World!H Enter your message below. Press CTRL/Z when complete, or CTRL/C to quit: Hi!  [CTRL/Z]M %RAMPAGE-I-FMPFUNC, Foreign protocol context 914912, function 2, 5 arguments.i %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, OUT_CHECKM %RAMPAGE-I-FMPFUNC, Foreign protocol context 914912, function 3, 4 arguments.y %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, OUT_LINE-N %RAMPAGE-I-FMPFUNC, Foreign protocol context 914912, function 17, 4 arguments. %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, OUT_LINEtM %RAMPAGE-I-FMPFUNC, Foreign protocol context 914912, function 4, 4 arguments.b %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, OUT_LINE ' %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, Subj: Hello World! N %RAMPAGE-I-FMPFUNC, Foreign protocol context 914912, function 19, 4 arguments.  %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, OUT_ATTRIBSM %RAMPAGE-I-FMPFUNC, Foreign protocol context 914912, function 5, 5 arguments.e %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, OUT_FILEs* %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, RAMPAGE$SEND_BEGIN(1)P %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, Message:"MAIL from LOMBARDI <Subj> Hello World! <Body> Hi!"6 %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, Sending pager message to LOMBARDI3 %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, RAMPAGE$SEND_MESSAGE(LOMBARDI)t( %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, RAMPAGE$SEND_END(1). %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, Pager List Reset CompleteM %RAMPAGE-I-FMPFUNC, Foreign protocol context 914912, function 6, 5 arguments.t %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, OUT_CHECKM %RAMPAGE-I-FMPFUNC, Foreign protocol context 914912, function 7, 2 arguments.e* %RAMPAGE-I-FMPTRACE, OUT_DEACCESS 0 914912   MAIL>o  L As you can see, we also get function 19 between functions 4 and 5.  Our codeN identifies it as function OUT_ATTRIBS with four longword parameters, the first5 of which is the context and the others are "unknown".u  N We currently do nothing in OUT_ATTRIBS, but it would be a good place to insertM any processing you would like to do after all the prompts have completed (To,eB CC, Subj) and before the message body (or edited file) is handled.  E > Thanks for pointing that out, Charles Matco.  Several of our former.I > competitors are either no longer in business or no longer support their  > paging products. >  > CRAIG LOMBARDI > RamPage Product ManagerI > Ergonomic Solutionsl! > 1.800.ERGOSOL - www.ergosol.com' >iO > > Before buying ANY paging product, run a D&B check to ascertain the vendor'se+ > > solvency and past bankruptcy history...n > >f > > caveat investor, > >- > > charles matco- > >-5 > > "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in message@' > > news:3B413BA8.77701463@wi.rr.com...RI > > > Any time you want to mix VMS and pagers, use Rampage from Ergonomicg > > > Solutions.0 > > > I think their web page is www.ergosol.com. > > >i > > > Tell 'em I sent you.  ;^)o > > >e > > > -Scott Vieth :^) > > >s > > > Trevor Blake wrote:C > > >>
 > > > > Hi > > > >dM > > > > I may need to set up an automated alert system on a VMS machine, e.g.gK > > > > sending a message to a pager when something stops working ... yawn.rF > > > > I've seen posts here from people doing this, but not needed to- > > > > assimilate the information until now.eM > > > > I'd appreciate some feedback on how to set this up, and what softwaren5 > > > > and hardware people are using / is available.p > > > >cP > > > > More convenient for me would be SMS Text messaging to a mobile phone, asM > > > > I can do via ICQ on a Win box.  Does any software exist for VMS to do  > > > > SMS Text Messaging ? > > > >e' > > > > I'm in the UK by the way.  TIA.  > > > >iM > > > > IA64  Alpha  Intel !*?!!*!? ...   words fail me.  I hope Compaq knowse > > > > what its doing.2 > > > >1
 > > > > -- > > > > Regards,  Trevor Blake > > > >CP > > > > You can reach me at: trevorXblakeZbaesystemsXcom  but replace X Z X by . > > > > @ .3 > > > >0H > > > > Disclaimer:   Don't believe a word, 'cause words are only spokenN > > > >               And lies are no comfort, when there's tears in your eyes   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2003 03:20 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)d Subject: Re: How to Backup OSX- Message-ID: <23JAN200303203735@gerg.tamu.edu>y  ) Tony Lawrence <tony@pcunix.com> writes...kI }Backing up to a disk drive is quick, convenient, and insufficient.  You -J }ALWAYS need removable media for archival storage.  Before some damn fool  }Tony Lawrence  J Disk drives are removeable - it's not like they are welded in or anything.J You can take them offsite almost as easily as you can take tapes off site.( They just take a bit more storage space.  D By the way, what dufus crossposted this thread to comp.sys.mac.apps?   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:19:43 GMTe% From: Tony Lawrence <tony@pcunix.com>i Subject: Re: How to Backup OSX+ Message-ID: <3lPX9.6686$Ve4.1465@sccrnsc03>8   David J. Dachtera wrote: > Tony Lawrence wrote: >  >>David J. Dachtera wrote: >> >>>Tony Lawrence wrote:x >>>g >>>) >>>>Howard S Shubs wrote:1 >>>> >>>>2 >>>>>In article <Lj%W9.71429$1q3.10159@sccrnsc01>,+ >>>>>Tony Lawrence <tony@pcunix.com> wrote:r    C I've got to trim a bit of this because it's really out of hand and   getting all twisty.u    1 >>>If you know how to automate backups including:u >>>r  >>>o Shutdown the running system >>>o Boot up the stand-alone CDv >>& >>Not necessary under any conditions.  >  > 9 > I'll refer you to OpenVMS engineering for a correction.l    I I'm posting from a Unix group.  If you have to shut down a VMS system to s* back it up, I am nothing short of stunned.     >  >  >>I suspect you haven't much >>experience at this.b >  > E > 19 years with VMS, 24 years in the business. See my website. Formerl > OpenVMS ASE. >  > Try again.  D Try again?  You read comments directed at a specific person (Howard G Shaubs) and think that they apply to you?  OK, the thread has gotten a f5 little confusing, but I didn't think it was THAT bad.      >>>i< >>>Oh, yeah, there's that zero-downtime thing to consider... >>B >>Few of my clients get that, although we can come close with diskJ >>snapshots.  If you REALLY need zero down time, that requires cooperationJ >>from the application software: it has to be able to bring all data filesC >>into sync and buffer all transactions while the snapshot is beingoJ >>prepared.  As that literally takes seconds,  that should be no hardship,. >>but I don't have anything with that feature. >  >  > No one has it. It's eutopia.      G Nonsense.  It may very well be that no commercial software exists with iF such features, but I have written small things with similar ideas for E specific purposes.  There's nothing difficult about it.  It would be  I hellishly difficult to modify an existing package of any complexity, but tC if you started from scratch with this in mind it's no brain strain.0       >  > F >>There's nothing technically difficult about it though and everything@ >>else is simple and BEING DONE EVERY DAY.  Nothing particularly >>sophisticated about it.a >  > I > That last comment suggest YOU may lack some experience with large-scale> > commercial systems.u > D > I spent two years writing BACKUP automation for large Chicago-areaJ > healthcare concern. It runs with tape library automation (*NOT* SLS) andC > splits and rejoins shadow- and mirror-sets as needed, and rotatesoG > through sets of production environments, three a night to cover sevens > production environments. > I > There's frequently a very large difference between what CAN be done and ) > what SHOULD be done. Say, "compromise".g >     F I believe I already covered the only compromise necessary: a very few H minutes with the database down, a quick snapshot, database back up, and I the backup is taken from the virtualized snapshot.  Most of the downtime eD of that is just people: getting them to finish up whatever they are 3 doing and get out.  The snapshot itself is seconds.    -- >
 Tony Lawrencei, Free SCO, Mac OS X and  Linux Skills Tests: % http://aplawrence.com/skillstest.htmll   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2003 11:49:13 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> Subject: Re: How to Backup OSX6 Message-ID: <20030123114913.19346.qmail@gacracker.org>  ; On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Tony Lawrence <tony@pcunix.com> wrote:  >David J. Dachtera wrote:o >> Tony Lawrence wrote:  >> s >>>David J. Dachtera wrote:c2 >>>>If you know how to automate backups including: >>>>! >>>>o Shutdown the running systemn  >>>>o Boot up the stand-alone CD >>>t' >>>Not necessary under any conditions. u  : >> I'll refer you to OpenVMS engineering for a correction.  J >I'm posting from a Unix group.  If you have to shut down a VMS system to + >back it up, I am nothing short of stunned.o  K To create a *perfect* copy of a VMS system disk, yes. You need to boot from K another device. It's the sort of thing you would be strongly recommended to ) do following an operating system upgrade.h  K However, as David stated in the portion you snipped, it is very, very, rare E for a VMS system disk backup made whilst the machine is running to bel	 unusable.s     Doc. --  : Time and money, the psychotropics of the business world...K ~ VAXman                                             https://vmsbox.cjb.netr   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:42:17 GMTa% From: Tony Lawrence <tony@pcunix.com>s Subject: Re: How to Backup OSX+ Message-ID: <syQX9.9505$AV4.1191@sccrnsc01>,   Doc.Cypher wrote: = > On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Tony Lawrence <tony@pcunix.com> wrote:. >  >>David J. Dachtera wrote: >> >>>Tony Lawrence wrote:2 >>>  >>>1 >>>>David J. Dachtera wrote: >>>>3 >>>>>If you know how to automate backups including:E >>>>>," >>>>>o Shutdown the running system! >>>>>o Boot up the stand-alone CD2 >>>>( >>>>Not necessary under any conditions.  >  > : >>>I'll refer you to OpenVMS engineering for a correction. >  > K >>I'm posting from a Unix group.  If you have to shut down a VMS system to  , >>back it up, I am nothing short of stunned. >  > M > To create a *perfect* copy of a VMS system disk, yes. You need to boot from M > another device. It's the sort of thing you would be strongly recommended toi+ > do following an operating system upgrade.  > M > However, as David stated in the portion you snipped, it is very, very, rareoG > for a VMS system disk backup made whilst the machine is running to be  > unusable.v  G Well, note the title of this thread.  Why it ever got crossposted to a pH VMS group is buried in here somewhere, but I don't really care:  99% of D what we have been talking about has only been clouded and made more C confusing by the fact that we are talking about two very different a> operating systems and often about different conditions of use.         -- G
 Tony Lawrencet, Free SCO, Mac OS X and  Linux Skills Tests: % http://aplawrence.com/skillstest.html    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:26:28 -0500L' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>  Subject: Re: How to Backup OSX< Message-ID: <howard-2031C4.08262823012003@enews.newsguy.com>  A In article <ron-shepard-B21C3A.00482922012003@netnews.attbi.com>,p2  Ron Shepard <ron-shepard@NOSPAM.attbi.com> wrote:  C > How will this situation change in the future?  Disk storage will  @ > almost certainly get cheaper in the future.  Is there any new B > storage media that has the ability to keep up with disk storage C > costs?  What happens in 10 years if disk storage is cheaper by a lG > factor of 1000 than current prices, but tape/DVD costs are only 4 or   > 5 times cheaper?  H I'm expecting a major technology change to solid media, which will have E enormously higher capacity and access speed, as well as tremendously nH higher reliablility.  The only way to back one of these "cubes" up will F be to copy it to another one.  Disks and tapes will be past-tense.  I  expect this w/in 20 years.   -- o4 Today, on Paper-view: The World Origami Championship   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:45:39 -0500m/ From: mike@POSTTOGROUP.invalid (Mike Rosenberg)  Subject: Re: How to Backup OSX< Message-ID: <1fp8c3e.g0ci3c86oc5wN%mike@POSTTOGROUP.invalid>  D Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann <vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de> wrote:  F > |>Now burn down the building. Tell me when you get the data off your
 > |>IDE raid.a > ; > And tell me when you get the data off your DLT-Library ifa > there is fire in that room.   G If you keep the backups in the same room as the computer, you're out ofaH luck, of course, but if you're serious about backing up, you always have' at least one backup set stored offsite.r   -- h Mike Rosenberg <http://www.macconsult.com>f  ; "If you ever get annoyed, look at me, I'm self employed..."    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2003 03:53:09 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: How to Backup OSX- Message-ID: <87k7gxarmi.fsf@prep.synonet.com>-  E vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) writes:k  > > In article <87vg0hb6or.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi! > <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:iI > |>vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) writes:e > |>F > |>> I've read an article in a german computer magazine, that states,J > |>> that it is nowadays cheaper to throw off the DLT-Tape library and to! > |>> buy a IDE-based raidsystem.o > |> > |>RIGHT... > |>F > |>Now burn down the building. Tell me when you get the data off your
 > |>IDE raid.  > ; > And tell me when you get the data off your DLT-Library ifr > there is fire in that room.h  
 1) Fire safe.s   2) Off-site.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.-@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2003 02:00:07 -0800* From: jose.arroyo@pandora.be (Jose Arroyo)A Subject: How to format data structure containing SCSICLS symbols? < Message-ID: <dc4879f.0301230200.10be6628@posting.google.com>  9 While trying to format a datastructure I got the message 4  A %SDA-E-NOSYMBOLS, no "SCSICLS" symbols found to format this block-    Where can I find these symbols? B Is there a way to find out where files reside containing 'missing' symbols?  B The SYSDEF.STB file contains many system symbols but sometimes not those you are interested in.   Regards, Jos Arroyow   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:53:30 GMTe" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGE Subject: Re: How to format data structure containing SCSICLS symbols?g0 Message-ID: <00A1A63C.FDCBC2CC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  i In article <dc4879f.0301230200.10be6628@posting.google.com>, jose.arroyo@pandora.be (Jose Arroyo) writes:e: >While trying to format a datastructure I got the message  > B >%SDA-E-NOSYMBOLS, no "SCSICLS" symbols found to format this block >l! >Where can I find these symbols? sC >Is there a way to find out where files reside containing 'missing'e	 >symbols?e >oC >The SYSDEF.STB file contains many system symbols but sometimes not  >those you are interested in.t >r	 >Regards,l >Jos Arroyo  E SCSICLS is a contrived data format used in the SCSI disk class driver & for allocated chunks of nonpaged pool.  D The allocated pool is given a header which contains the UCB and KPB D addresses in the locations normally occupied by the FLINK and BLINK.E Then there is the normal structure size field, type and subtype bytes E which are DYN$C_MISC and DYN$C_SCSICLS respectively.  A longword then<2 follows which contains the size of the allocation.  * The following should define these for you:            .MACRO  $SCSICLSDEF,$GBL         $DEFINI SCSICLSDEF,$GBLm" $EQU    SCSICLS$S_SCSICLS       16! $EQU    SCSICLS$L_UCB           0e! $EQU    SCSICLS$L_KPB           4e! $EQU    SCSICLS$W_SIZE          8 " $EQU    SCSICLS$B_TYPE          10" $EQU    SCSICLS$B_SUBTYPE       11" $EQU    SCSICLS$L_ALLOC_SIZE    12" $EQU    SCSICLS$K_LENGTH        16" $EQU    SCSICLS$C_LENGTH        16" $EQU    SCSICLS$S_SCSIDEFDEF    16#         $DEFEND SCSICLSDEF,$GBL,DEFs
         .ENDMo           $SCSICLSDEF GLOBAL         .END    ? Simply place this into a file (SCSICLS.MAR) and compile it witha $ MACRO SCSICLS.MARr   Then, in SDA,   " SDA> READ <dev>:[<dir>]SCSICLS.OBJ     Personally, I'd just use  ! SDA> SHOW STACK/LONG <address>;10m    % PS.  Good to see you're still around.u   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMm             5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" M   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2003 06:20:16 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)G Subject: Re: Illuminata report:: "HP's Server Business: On the Rebound" ; Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0301230620.d26b58@posting.google.com>t  v keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) wrote in message news:<cf15391e.0301221458.16f1be8f@posting.google.com>...6 > This report is by Kevin Fogarty of Illuminata.  See = > http://www.illuminata.com/cgi-local/pub.cgi?docid=anreboundt > H > "We expected HP to need far more than a quarter or so to get its ducksD > in a row ... but HP's business-critical server business shows bothD > structural and financial improvements already, with the promise of< > more on the horizon.  Even amidst the tough market and the9 > merger-borne dislocation, BCS is making good progress."r  9 you better check with Mark Levy before posting links like 5 this ... looks like it is copyrighted ... plus he and 7 others might accuse you of "having nothing to say" when & you post others articles like this ...   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:57:00 GMT ( From: "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com>G Subject: Re: Illuminata report:: "HP's Server Business: On the Rebound"l+ Message-ID: <0pTX9.7018$4y2.1022@sccrnsc04>   5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messagee5 news:d7791aa1.0301230620.d26b58@posting.google.com...1  ; > you better check with Mark Levy before posting links likee7 > this ... looks like it is copyrighted ... plus he and 9 > others might accuse you of "having nothing to say" whene( > you post others articles like this ...  - Here's what Illuminata has to say about that: 1 http://www.illuminata.com/policies/copyright.html:  C "Illuminata is a registered trademark of Illuminata, Inc. All other I trademarks referenced herein are the property of their respective owners.i  J This page and all contents herein are copyrighted  1993-2003 as posted byJ Illuminata, Inc., Nashua, NH 03060. All rights are reserved. Copyright forD components of this work owned by others than Illuminata must also be honored.  E These pages are licensed for online browsing only. To copy, abstract, G republish, reprint, post, or redistribute any of these materials by any G means requires prior specific permission and/or fee. Request permissionhF from: Publications Department, Illuminata, Inc., 603-598-0198 (fax) or publications@illuminata.com ."  L Seems clear and completely unambiguous to me. And I'd never accuse you, Bob,K of having nothing to say. It's just that nobody cares to hear what you haveo to say.m   ML   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:20:12 +0100a6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>4 Subject: Re: Independent VMS crash analysis service.) Message-ID: <3E30244C.9080002@vajhoej.dk>u   [sorry for being a bit late]   John Travell wrote:gM > Since my search for a VMS based job is not (so far) meeting much success, IdM > am considering an alternate source of income - providing an independent VMSl > crash analysis service.iN > Skills are not the problem, remember that before CPQ made me redundant I was8 > one of the principal crash analysis experts in the UK.K > The problem is that I have no idea how big the potential global demand isn > for this type of service./  7 I very much doubt that there would be enough demand for 
 that service.o   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2003 09:20:29 -08000 From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter) Subject: NTP on OpenVMSm< Message-ID: <a3c44af1.0301230920.2553b12@posting.google.com>  A Thanks for your help so far guys.    I found the NTP Service justi where you said..E      Incidentally I am using TCPIP Services for OpenVMS Version 5.0A,gD ECO3, with OpenVMS version 7.2-1.     I ran the TCPIP$CONFIG.com andC set up the service NTP.   I then went and edited the TCPIP$NTP.CONFB file.l  B The instructions within the file indicated that all I needed was aF list of reliable time servers, cycle the service in TCPIP,  and "Bob's your uncle!!".   Fat Chance!!  r; The Config file had only the following uncommented entries.   1 driftfile SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$NTP]TCPIP$NTP.DRIFTe   peer time.nist.gov peer time-b.nist.gov  peer time-b.timefreq.bldrdoc.gov peer utcnist.colorado.edup peer time-nw.nist.govs peer nist1.dc.certifiedtime.comt  9 Q1.   Should there be more information in the .CONF file?dE Q2.   When the Service is enabled, should there be a process created?  (I dont see one.).  C      Queries using NTPDC indicate that the "***  REQUEST TIMED OUT">>      The Log file contains statistical information, however it concludes with "permission denied".  C      Thinking it might be firewall related, I replaced the externali> 'peer's with an internal source, our Network Core Router, i.e.   peer xxx.xx.1.1    with the same result.g  E      I would really appreciate if someone could telme what I am doingo wrong here.n   Thanks in advance.   Dave Baxter.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:43:39 GMTl7 From: brad@.homeportal.2wire.net (Bradford J. Hamilton)r Subject: Re: NTP on OpenVMS , Message-ID: <fRVX9.10746$6G4.4294@sccrnsc02>  o In article <a3c44af1.0301230920.2553b12@posting.google.com>, dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter) writes:t <snip>< >The Config file had only the following uncommented entries. >t2 >driftfile SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$NTP]TCPIP$NTP.DRIFT >i >peer time.nist.govs >peer time-b.nist.govl! >peer time-b.timefreq.bldrdoc.gova >peer utcnist.colorado.edu >peer time-nw.nist.gov  >peer nist1.dc.certifiedtime.com   Hi Dave,  L Try replacing "peer" with "server" here; also, try to make sure that some of4 the "servers" are physically close to your location.   >r: >Q1.   Should there be more information in the .CONF file?   Not necessary, AFAICS.  F >Q2.   When the Service is enabled, should there be a process created? >(I dont see one.).y  E You would probably have to make sure the service is *started*, i.e., r   @sys$startup:tcpip$ntp_startup  M Forgive me if you have already done this, just trying to troubleshoot withoutd being "hands-on".	:-)2   >oD >     Queries using NTPDC indicate that the "***  REQUEST TIMED OUT"? >     The Log file contains statistical information, however itS >concludes withE >"permission denied".7 >a  N Can't comment here - I never had a permission issue enabling this stuff out of the box.  D >     Thinking it might be firewall related, I replaced the external? >'peer's with an internal source, our Network Core Router, i.e., >' >peer xxx.xx.1.1 >  >with the same result.  K When I managed systems inside a firewall, I always used the "internal" time-- servers - again, replace "peer" with "server"    > F >     I would really appreciate if someone could telme what I am doing >wrong here.  7 Just some educated guesses - I could be way off here...i   >e >Thanks in advance.a >i
 >Dave Baxter.a  A _________________________________________________________________t0 Bradford J. Hamilton			"All opinions are my own"/ bMradAhamiPltSon@atMtAbi.cPoSm		"Lose the MAPS"    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:24:11 -0800 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>2 Subject: RE: OT-ish: Opteron servers now available0 Message-ID: <01C2C2C1.33788BD0@sulfer.icius.com>  F I'm not sure that's fair. M$ didn't even bother to attend the briefingC on the contract, where they'd heard what was required and been in a'G position to do something about it. Reads to me more like overconfidenceu on their part than rigging.s   Shanec     Shane Smith wrote: > J > Opteron servers trickle onto the streets, in limited numbers. Looks likeE > the "beachhead" rollout mentioned in an earlier thread. Can I get at, > Hammer VMS to go with that please? PLEASE? > * > http://www.theinquirer.org/?article=7345 > J > And for those that enjoy a laugh, Houston gives Microsoft a single digit	 > salute:  > J > http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2003-01-21-simdesk-c > over_x.htm > J > Apparently they told MS where to shove their Office XP license "upgrade"I > and are going with something called SimDesk, for a first year saving ofoI > $1.6m and $7.1m each year after. It's already a hit in their libraries,'D > and it's going to be put in a bunch of their offices. They're alsoI > providing it free to low income citizens, apparently. MS are pissed, sosH > I am happy. Read to the end, it's quite amazing what MS think they can > get away with these days.s >  > Shanei >  >  #####0 > #-O-O-# !------------------------------------!0 > #  L  # !    Cogito, ergo tutti fruiti.      !0 >  #===#  !------------------------------------! >   ###b    C Not to defend M$ in any way, but if you read the entire article theaG bidding was rigged such that only SimDesk would win and the one who wasiH in charge of the bidding resigned afterwards.  and it looks like SimDesk9 has a ways to go to be a business replacement for Office.    --   Regards,  6 Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 19847 First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163o   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2003 09:25:49 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)i1 Subject: RE: SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/98-0 Message-ID: <b0ocet$9kv$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  W In article <01C2C243.6FB22B20@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes: F >My gut reaction is it's a termination problem. Try sticking an active8 >terminator on the outgoing SCSI connector of the BA356. >nI >I don't know the specific hardware you're playing with, but often a SCSIoH >card with two sockets actually only has one channel. If there's nothingH >plugged into one of the sockets though, most cards are bright enough toB >slap internal termination on that end of the chain. When you plugH >something into it though, that termination switches off, and you've gotI >to provide your own at the far end of the cable. When possible, I alwaysPE >use an active terminator since I have had trouble with passive ones.   O If it has only one channel then you should pay attention on the SCSI-address ofpC the tape. It must be different from all the other IDs of the disks./  G >Incidentally, any hardware guys out there care to enlighten me; what's > >the actual difference between active and passive terminators?  K A terminator's job is to keep the power constant on the bus pins. A passivesK terminator has some resistors to avoid peaks. An active terminator has somesO more logic in it, consumes power and therefore is able to keep everything a lot % more stable and within narrow bounds..   Regards,    Christoph Gartmannr  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:10:49 +0100 (MET)V9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>F1 Subject: Re: SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/98t; Message-ID: <01KRKO5XG4TU8WW5NX@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>B  I > I then connected a SCSI cable from the spare port on the BA35X-MG to an  > external TLZ09 tape drive.    H > The console SHOW DEVICE command shows only the internal CD-ROM drive. G > Connecting or removing the SCSI terminator on the tape drive makes not > difference.   I With the same disk and enclosure, I've seen a similar problem.  It could  E be that, with this disk, you need to be more strict in observing the   maximum length of the SCSI bus.d  : I never could track down the problem specifically, though.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:54:28 -0500 ! From: VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com> 1 Subject: RE: SCSI bus problem on MicroVAX 3100/98rK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BC1@rlghncst964.usps.gov>d  "  Questions (random SCSI thoughts):  A  1. What do you get when you do a SHOW DEV at the console prompt?w  &  	a. Do you have one PK device or two?  <  	b. What is (are) the SCSI IDs of the devices which show up 		in (1) above?o  :       c. What ID are you trying to use for the tape drive?  D  Assuming you have 1 SCSI host adapter, 4 RZ29s a CD-ROM and a tape E  drive, that makes 7 SCSI IDs.  If your host adapter is set to 6 and aH  you're using 7 for something, strange things may happen: host adapters ?  tend to be happier campers if they're at the end of the chain.n  7  2.   What cables are you using, and how long are they?   @       a. How, and when, are you going wide/narrow or vice versa?# 		(I'm not familiar with the MG...)-  >  3.   I'd examine the SCSI cables *inside* the 98 to see what ?       they are doing.  You might have one that's come-a-loose, s$       (to use a technical term) :^).  9  4.   Count your terminators, both internal and external.o   HTHe   WWWebb   Jeremy Begg wrote: >e > Hi,  >kH > I've recently received a MicroVAX 3100/98 which I'm configuring before sellinglE > it on to my customer.  There's a BA356 pedestal with it which has 4  RZ29B-VWK > drives in it.  The BA356 is connected to the MicroVAX 3100 via a BA35X-MGlG > dual-port adapter module in the BA356; one port is vacant.  So far sot good:iK > the MicroVAX powers up and sees all the SCSI disks (four in the BA356 and- its- > internal CD-ROM drive).2 >aI > I then connected a SCSI cable from the spare port on the BA35X-MG to andI > external TLZ09 tape drive.  Now, when I power on the VAX, the self testD fails0K > at step 22 and it won't attempt to boot.  The console SHOW DEVICE commandpH > shows only the internal CD-ROM drive.  Connecting or removing the SCSI3 > terminator on the tape drive makes no difference.c >i6 > Has anyone seen this before, and can suggest a cure? >.	 > Thanks!r  G Only thing I can think of: does the shelf have a terminator card in it? B You'll find it behind the fan, near slot 1 unless the shelf has noH "jumper" card (that it is, it was previously used as split-bus) in whichA case the terminator will be behind the other fan, near slot 5(?).d   -- David J. Dachteraw dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/-   ========================  William W. Webb / DSSC/RLM, USPS OpenVMS Support Services& 4924 Green Road Raleigh, NC 27616-2800: 919.874.3043 <FirstInitialDotLastNameAtEmailDotUSPSDotGov>   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:33:13 +0100d From: martin@rochooni.neto7 Subject: Re: SDCL - Structured Digital Command Languagee) Message-ID: <cod6mn3jxy.fsf@rochooni.net>f   hi,   B are there any chances that sdcl could be ported to other operating	 systems ?e   martin  3 "RM" == Richard Munroe <munroe@csworks.com> writes:e$  RM> Date: 3 Jan 2003 07:49:04 -0800  RM> DJ  RM> I've put a distribution of SDCL onto sourceforge.net for download and>  RM> further development by the OpenVMS Open Source community.  RM>  !  RM> The project is available at:-  RM>  .  RM>     http://sourceforge.net/projects/sdcl/  RM> PH  RM> and is the first of many more of my projects that will be placed on4  RM> sourceforge to allow easier access to the code.  RM> bJ  RM> For those of you doing a lot of DCL hacking, you should probably lookI  RM> at this.  I find that my development cycles using SDCL vs. using DCLE  RM> are much shorter.  RM> n  RM> Use it in good health.g  RM> u%  RM> Dick Munroe (munroe@csworks.com)A  RM> PJ  RM> p.s. I'm looking for work.  If anybody has anything interesting, give*  RM> me a shout.  My resume's available at,  RM> http://www.acornsw.com/resume/dick.html  RM> C --  ) martin dot fischer at boschrexroth dot deA   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:06:17 +0000l( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>G Subject: Re: shadow-set consistency on simultaneous loss of all membersU) Message-ID: <3E2FB089.70054D92@127.0.0.1>o   Phillip Helbig wrote:A9 [Apologies for the high re-requoting content and length] c  D In the context of this, "remaining members" may also mean "remaining member".  F > > The goal of volume shadowing is to have consistent data across allL > > members of the shadow set. It does NOT guarantee that the 'data'  is theL > > right data, that is up to your application. (Shadowing is only concerned' > > with LBNs not files, hence 'data'.)I > H > I realise that a sudden power outage is not a good thing, and actuallyH > I'm a bit surprised that, the few times it has happened, there were no > ill effects.  G The issue to consider is the "write I/O in flight". Even when the powerEC is cut, the milliseconds left of rotation and circuits due to powerjG supply capacity is comparatively considerable. The next write I/O would E [hopefully] be stalled by the processors POWERFAIL interrupt. This isE@ the OpenVMS difference, do you want your data, or do you want itF fast/cached, but may lose it (UNIXen/WNT) ? Your experience is typical of OpenVMS.g  nL > > Shadowing does attempt to get things right, and the clustering protocolsH > > try to stop corruption, merging as Alan describes is a 'best guess',K > > where a difference is found either the last known shadow master is usednE > > as the source, or, in the case of a data read error, wherever theo > > successful read is from. > F > If the disks were in different boxes, and only the power to one diskH > failed, then it should be obvious that, if there are differences, thenA > the non-failed disk should be taken as the valid source.  Thus, > > obviously, a multi-member shadow set is better than a single > non-shadowed disk.  ? We're digging a little deeper here. SHADOWING will only know ifrC something is wrong by performing a WRITE. (In some cases a hardwareiA event may also trigger mount verification etc.) The write will berF completed to the available members of the shadowset, if a write fails,E then the shadowset goes into SHADOW_MBR_TMO default 20 seconds. After H that time is up, the shadowset will "transition", the shadowing metadataH on the remaining members of the shadowset will be updated, and this will+ reflect that the failed member was removed.c  B The remaining member as you describe it, will be used as the validE source, providing when SHADOWING tries to bring together the originaloF shadowset, the metadata reflects the fact that a member is potentiallyG less current in real terms, i.e. the timestamp in the metadata is later H (and more current) than the metadata on a disk that was also a member of the shadowset.  G Hopefully, you've seen a 20 second window in which a member of a shadow H set could fail, then remaining members of the shadowset could fail. This? could be a "creeping doom" scenario as described in John AtoZ'ssC whitepaper, the real failure circumstances could be anything from aaE local communications failure, to a remote outage. How does the systemi know?   wA > So, if the power to both goes off simultaneously, will there bev > differences?  G That question as it stands, possibly. Consider that write I/O in flight C at the time of power failure. Due to rotational latency etc., it is F feasible that a WRITE completes on one member and not on the other(s).H HOWEVER there is no guarantee that this was the original master. A mergeG could potentially destroy potentially correct data (although this could  be as rare as never observed).  > This is why it is up to the application. Typically, when a QIOF completes, the application would then update a log reflecting that theE (already written) transaction in progress has now been completed. ***e  3I > Let me rephrase my question: is there potentially more danger to losing:G > power to BOTH members of a shadow set simultaneously than to a singleyF > non-shadowed disk?  If so, this would be an argument for putting theH > disks in different boxes.  (Of course, for non-system disks, I do thisD > anyway, so that the disk is still accessible if a single node or aH > single box fails.  With a system disk, if the node fails, then I don'tG > need the disk anyway, thus the ONLY argument for putting members of ahG > system-disk shadow set in separate boxes (apart from guarding againstt0 > controller failure) would be more robustness.)  > What are you protecting against? That is the primary question.  0 [Single non shadowed disk vs. two member shadow]F Are you halving the risk of losing a power supply or single data path?  & [two member shadowset vs. single disk]D Are you doubling the risk of losing one of two power supplies or two data paths?)  G Your system disk argument is very, very well observed. This is thinking1F outside the SPD which is part of the fundamentals of building reliableE systems. Extend that to the process OUTSIDE the box and you're in then( realms of OpenVMS 100% service delivery.  1 To come back to what volume shadowing offers you:   ? o Ability to remove swap out physical hardware without dismountr3 o Ability to freeze contents for backup consistency D o Ability to geographically remotely locate shared access consistent data  A All under operating system control. This is where it differs fromsF controller mirroring. Any fool can use a mirror, only a wise man knowsD the difference between a mirror image and a shadow. There is nothing+ wrong shadowing RAID volumes under OpenVMS.r  G Only you can answer your questions, now you know what shadowing can andw	 can't do.s  nI > > As to corruption of a system disk, well I would say boot the one thatu
 > > boots. > G > Imagine the power goes off while no-one is around, and the system hastC > AUTO_ACTION=BOOT.  I would want it to come back up automatically.w  " Change, would want, to would like.  C The system disk is a special case, and therefore has its own set ofmG parameters. System disk consistency is more important in some ways, andnC there are many trains of thought. Some systems (most (all?) Alphas,rC enterprise VAXen) allow multiple boot device definitions. So if the,F 'primary' boot isn't available, it'll pick up the secondary. Providing= whatever device is picked up as the available boot device wascE consistently part of the currently available shadowset, it will boot.lG The theory is the failed device, if there was one when a system failed,fE remains failed, and the booting disk can merge with remaining membersnF without conflict of integrity, then your system will come up. As to itD being more reliable in the same local cabinet, a remote cabinet, can depend on other circumstances.  D ***. Application design is crucial. It is NOT the operating system'sD responsibility to make your application data consistent. You use theD lock manager, before and after image logging techniques, clustering,F etc., to survive system failures, which, if not predictable, should at> least have known (or possible) failure characteristics. Having@ consistent, reliable data is sometimes more important than speedG providing it is timely to the application. This is why for OpenVMS, thee. fastest possible, isn't really that important.  E You're a good thinker Phillip, I trust your employer appreciates you.e --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesv nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2003 08:17:14 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)hG Subject: Re: shadow-set consistency on simultaneous loss of all members 3 Message-ID: <n9uHELyKE$8s@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  T In article <3E2FB089.70054D92@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes:   > A > We're digging a little deeper here. SHADOWING will only know if/E > something is wrong by performing a WRITE. (In some cases a hardware C > event may also trigger mount verification etc.) The write will be H > completed to the available members of the shadowset, if a write fails,G > then the shadowset goes into SHADOW_MBR_TMO default 20 seconds. AftereJ > that time is up, the shadowset will "transition", the shadowing metadataJ > on the remaining members of the shadowset will be updated, and this will- > reflect that the failed member was removed.u > D > The remaining member as you describe it, will be used as the validG > source, providing when SHADOWING tries to bring together the originalfH > shadowset, the metadata reflects the fact that a member is potentiallyI > less current in real terms, i.e. the timestamp in the metadata is latertJ > (and more current) than the metadata on a disk that was also a member of > the shadowset. > I > Hopefully, you've seen a 20 second window in which a member of a shadow J > set could fail, then remaining members of the shadowset could fail. ThisA > could be a "creeping doom" scenario as described in John AtoZ'sbE > whitepaper, the real failure circumstances could be anything from a G > local communications failure, to a remote outage. How does the systems > know?e >     : 	This white paper hands out newer recommendations tying in( 	with VolShad improvements.  Among them:  > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/fibre/fc_hbvs_dtc_wp.pdf  I This method uses several new DISMOUNT, SET, and HBVS features. One is theeL ability to set a member timeout value for each shadow set member rather thanM rely on a single system wide SHADOW_MBR_TMO value. In order to achieve manualwO control of the multisite shadow sets, the system manager sets this parameter to>M its highest value (approximately 27 weeks) by issuing the following command:    2 $SET DEVICE / MEMBER_TIMEOUT = 16777215 $1$DGA713:    You can set a new value forI mount verification timeout for each virtual unit. It should be set to thei, highest value. Issue the following command:   + $ SET DEVICE / MVTIMEOUT = 16777215 DSA713 s  F This command takes effect as soon as it is issued. It should be issuedN on all cluster members that mount the shadow set at any site. When any clusterM member experiences an I/O failure related to connectivity problems, it places,N the shadow set in mount verification. When this occurs, the system manager canO investigate the cause of the connection failure and determine which site shoulde( survive. The system manager then removes  O the shadow set members that are physically located at the other site by issuingb the following command:    $ DISMOUNT / FORCE_REMOVAL ddcu:  O This command will remove the specified member (ddcu:) from the shadow set. OnceoL the command completes, it allows cluster members at this site to exit volumeO processing and to resume normal application I/O access to the remaining members- of the reduced shadow set.   	And so on.0  A 	I like what you are saying above and below.  Great stuff.  Just a? 	wanted to throw that in there as what may be *best* for a site.E 	policy is to do the large SHADOW_MBR_TMO.  I've taken that approach.>@ 	By the way, triple shadow.  Storage is cheap and you will sleep 	a whole lot more soundly.   				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2003 07:18:38 -0800+ From: spamdump@mccready.com (Gary McCready)eI Subject: Re: Storage network with VMS cluster and other OSses, ESS, EMC2?i= Message-ID: <ffd79a6c.0301230718.48c5851b@posting.google.com>   p Gunther Schadow <gschadowREMOVETHIS@regenstrief.org> wrote in message news:<3E2DA813.2060503@regenstrief.org>... > Hi,h > C > this question has beed discussed a little in the last year, but Ir@ > would appreciate some updated relaunch of it. We have an AlphaF > cluster here with 5 Alphas 4100s that currently seem to be clusteredA > through CI and a CI to SCSI bridge (HSJ?) to StorageWorks. This B > has been so for a number of years but it's ridiculously slow andB > we run out of diskspace all the time (yes, we are probably doingC > something wrong in addition to the aged hardware.) But instead ofsB > doctoring on the current setup, we want to put in a  SAN kind of; > storage box, upgrade the nodes with FibreChannel adapters F > and say good bye to good ol' CI (what an amazing piece of technology9 > it was, 18 MB/s highspeed since 1978 on the VAX11/780!)f >  <snip>  D > The constraints are that we want to allow non-VMS machines to alsoE > use the storage. So, a DEC/MSCP only cluster would be a problem. Of F > course we don't expect to share common files, but VMS would have itsI > zone and Unix would have its zone side-by-side. Any concerns with that? E > Is that possible with DEC/Compaq/HP StorageWorks, it is possible to-D > add non-VMS clients, non DEC/Compaq/HP clients, not just possible, > but officially supported?. >  >  <snip>  	 > regardsk
 > -Gunther    E Well, in short, you can have mutiple o/s share the same san and disksaE with OpenVMS and Storageworks. The documents that back that up can befF found at the "SAN Infastructure" part of the HP storage website, which currently is atc  F http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/storageworks/san/documentation.html  F which include the "San Design Reference Guide" and especially the "SAN@ Product Support Tables for the SAN Design Reference Guide".  TheF latter specifies driver/firmware compatibility for each platform.  I'mB sure all SAN products require driver and firmware levels for theirD controllers, and one challange is to make sure that all your servers7 connected to the same controllers can be at a supported); firmware/software level for the firmware of the controller.   A I would suggest one look at a simular document from any other SANm# vendor to compare what can be done.   D The Storageworks line also allows you a great amount of control overE how you can lay out your storage (especially with the HSG80) and alsotA less control, but more automation and performance (from the newer-D HSV's). There are also a variety of utilities that allow you to takeC scripted, host-controlled disk snapshots that can then be backed up ? offline, or utilities that can allow your data to be replicatede
 elsewhere.  D There are a lot of decisions to make on implementing a SAN, but  theD bottom line is that good advanced planning with someone who has doneE this before can make your implementation really smooth going forward.e   --Gary McCreadyi< My opinions might only reflect my thinking, or lack thereof.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:10:38 +0100 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>' Subject: Re: VMS 7.2-1, patches and DCEA) Message-ID: <3E30220E.6090005@vajhoej.dk>t   Wayne Morrison wrote:oL > You couldn't write "DCE for Dummies" in 3-4 pages.  The full documentationP > takes several 3-ring binders.  It would take 3-4 pages just to briefly mentionK > all the different parts of DCE, with no real explanation of what they do!  > P > Your best bet would be to start with the "Introduction to OSF DCE" book that's> > part of the Open Group documentation.  You can find this at: > % > 	http://www.opengroup.org/tech/dce/s  $ That was what I was hoping to avoid.  < Because I only use DCE as a transport for BridgeWorXs stuff.  1 But thanks for the link. I will try reading that.s   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:06:37 -0500o From: Dan <dan@vrx.net>l Subject: VMS source listings ?8 Message-ID: <imb03voo37n6433et7o8dksrhj5l3n7cld@4ax.com>  A Ok, I own the microfiche source listings for vms, and I know manysE people have the listings on CDRom, and I know with a support contractD: I could have gotten a CD for as little as $45 from Compaq.  3 I also saw a source listing CD set on Ebay, rarely.h- Is there any way to get a look at these CDs ?SF microfiche is excessively difficult medium to actually use (or search)   Dan.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:12:55 -0500eA From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> $ Subject: Re: xwindows startup option. Message-ID: <3e300678$1_1@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  L I have no idea what ar1 and ar2 are, which means that the odds are you can'tD get there from here.  There is a logical that can be used to pass anH explicit set of arguments to the xserver (to mimic what the UNIX typical= start would do) - something to the effect of $define/sys/execr+ DECW$SERVER_COMMAND_LINE_ARGS "-option foo"S  G However, I don't know of anything specific to the KB or KVM switches in1 there.    A "Steven Anderson" <sanders@mail.ci.dallas.tx.us> wrote in messagef7 news:d8292cb8.0301221355.7d0213b0@posting.google.com... C > Our VMS system starts the Xwindows sesion when the system starts.  >-D > Where can I change some of the Xwindows startup options, I need toH > change the ar1 and ar2 options due to problems with the keyboard being > used with a KVM switch.b >d > Thank you. >d > Steven Andersond   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:57:15 GMT - From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase)b Subject: Re: YA OpenVMS Newbie& Message-ID: <H95q3F.KqI@world.std.com>  L In article <rdeininger-2201030744330001@user-2ive3rg.dialup.mindspring.com>,3 Robert Deininger <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote:s) > In article <H944G7.3vo@world.std.com>,  0 > bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) wrote:  C > > Anyway... I've got myself a lovely little (little?) pair of VAXe@ > > 4000/300 (KA670, 64MB RAM, 2x 1GB RF72s) rackmount systems.  >  > Well, congratulations! > K > The VAX 4000 pedestal systems are nicer than the rackmounts for home use, A > but only because they can double as end tables.  Either kind ist
 > functional."  H I've also got the rack; it's definitely too big for an end table, but itH does serve as a useful surface for storing things next to my front door.J I've been looking around for one of the wee little VAX 4000/200 pedestals,G but I didn't have any luck.  The resellers tend to be pretty steep withcH their pricing, and many seem to resent hobbyists looking for inexpensive gear.1   > > I just brought one ofcE > > them up and reset the SYSTEM password per the instructions of the G > > OpenVMS FAQ.  The system is running OpenVMS 6.1 as that is what wasaI > > left on it.  I've got OpenVMS 7.3-1 hobbyist media on order, and I've . > > also got a set of 5.5-2H4 media for VAX.   > K > The VMS version for VAX is V7.3, not V7.3-1.  That's ok, don't panic whena
 > you see it.d  ; Thanks for the heads up. I'll make a note to not panic. :-)e  K > You'll need a CD drive.  That's not trivial on the typical VAX 4000, withhK > no SCSI support.  If you already have DECnet installed on the system, you0H > might find it easiest to obtain a dirt-cheap old alpha (or VAXstation)L > system with a CD, and use DECnet and BACKUP to transfer your new VAX mediaJ > kit over to the VAX system.  Once you get the VAX and Alpha VMS versionsL > aligned, you can put all the machines in the same cluster, and they'll all$ > have access to each other's disks. > K > You can get hardware to attach a CD drive to the VAX, but it isn't alwayscL > easy to find.  There are various other strategies for getting new VMS onto
 > an old VAX.e  H Fortunately, I've also got a MicroVAX 3100/20e with an RD42 connected toJ it.  I'd planned on getting VMS installed on a drive in it first, and then* getting the VAX 4000s built up from there.  H Some other people have mentioned setting up a DSSI cluster.  I'd sort ofI assumed that I'd only be able to use this for creating a storage cluster,rE but then I'm not too familiar with DSSI.  Can you actually run DECnet G traffic over it?  Probably a FAQ, or at least something I should searchlA out in the docs about clustering.  I'd also figured that I'd neednD additional hardware (apart from the cables) to share the DSSI drives between systems.  F Alternatively, if I can find two DEFQAs, I'd consider putting them on 6 a FDDI ring instead of 10Mb/s ethernet.  Ahhh... FDDI.   > > I have, however,. > > gotten sidetracked playing with VAX MACRO. >  > That could take a while. :-)  I I'm refreshing my decade old (gah, has it been that long?) brain cells.  9G I'd learned VAX MACRO during my second year in college for our ComputerNF Organisation and Assembly Language class.  I was already familiar withJ 8086 assembler at the time; as one might expect, I was very impressed with1 what the VAX architecture and MACRO had to offer.P   -brian.o -- nF --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----->       IBM 1130 Club Motto:  "Computer People Are Happy People"   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2003 03:01 CDTe' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)o Subject: Re: YA OpenVMS Newbie- Message-ID: <23JAN200303010147@gerg.tamu.edu>.  1 bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) writes...lH }useful, though I do wish I could read the entire text of the help for a: }command without having traverse the nested layers of it.  }-brian.  D The Help prompts accept wildcards. You can enter "*" to have it page4 through everything one level below where you are at.  F This won't let you walk the entire tree in a good way, but it will letE you see everything X leveles below where you are now (you can see twos: levels below by entering "* *", three with "* * *", etc.).   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:22:39 -0500o; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>e Subject: Re: YA OpenVMS Newbie$ Message-ID: <3e3032ef$1@news.si.com>  E >The Help prompts accept wildcards. You can enter "*" to have it pageu5 >through everything one level below where you are at.o  L And, of course, you can also use an ellipsis to see everything on down.  See HELP INSTRUCTIONS. -- 2I Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot comi5 Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM.9@ 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991.8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.046 ************************