1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 12 Jul 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 381       Contents: Re: autogen question Re: backgrounding a process  Re: backgrounding a process  Disk Problem after 7.3 upgrade" Re: Disk Problem after 7.3 upgrade Re: Good code profilers on VMS? C Re: How do I determine which processor I am running on (alpha SMP)? + Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense + Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense + Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense + Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense + Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense + Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense + Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense % Re: New lexical function F$DELTA_TIME % Re: New lexical function F$DELTA_TIME  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: Pearl Users  Re: Pearl Users ) Re: Portents of itanium death - revisited  Re: PPPOE? When? How? 9 Q: How to close and reopen detached process's Sys$Output? P Re: Redirecting screen output from FMS to files and displaying them  using an emP Re: Redirecting screen output from FMS to files and displaying them using an emu# Re: Serial Connection over Ethernet  Serial Connection over Ethernet # Re: Serial Connection over Ethernet 5 Re: vms security model - does it still exist on IA64?  Re: VMS to Windows 2000  Re: VMS to Windows 2000  Re: VMS to Windows 2000  Re: VMS to Windows 2000  Re: VMS to Windows 2000  Re: VMS to Windows 2000  Re: VMS to Windows 2000   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 13:18:13 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: autogen question = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0307111218.64111cac@posting.google.com>   Z p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote in message news:<aX$hrnQLo1kP@elias.decus.ch>...E > In article <3f0e03c7.96607828@news>, Rob.Buxton@wcc.govt.nz writes: - > > On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:35:28 +0000 (UTC), G > > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to  > > reply) wrote:  > > M > >>On one system, I have some secondary page and swap files located off the  . > >>system disk.  When running AUTOGEN, I get: > >>2 > >>RMS-E-FEX, file already exists, not supersededB > >>%SET-E-READERR, error reading DISK$LABEL:[DIR]PAGEFILE_1.SYS;1. > >>-SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict3 > >>%RMS-E-FEX, file already exists, not superseded B > >>%SET-E-READERR, error reading DISK$LABEL:[DIR]SWAPFILE_1.SYS;1. > >>-SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict > >>/ > >>Is this expected?  Should I worry about it?  > > 3 > > Autogen is trying to do stuff to the Pagefiles. D > > Personally I don't like it doing that so I have the following in > > modparams.dat  > > F > > pagefile = 0            ! Do NOT Make changes to Page & Swap Files > > swapfile = 0 > > dumpfile = 0 > >  > C > Same here. The fundamental problem is when you have, say, monthly K > jobs which use lots of page/swap file space. If you reboot for any reason C > and run Autogen before those jobs have run, it will try to shrink  > the page/swap files.  C So skip the GENFILES phase. Apparently, AUTOGEN assumes you can use F extra disk space. In the case of a load reduction that is not followedD later by an increased load, this makes sense. Otherwise people would; complain the AUTOGEN is not shrinking a too-large pagefile.   D AUTOGEN cannot predict the future. It is up to the sysmgr to use his6 knowledge of the system's workload when using AUTOGEN.  B > > That way I'll make the changes to the Pagfiles if I think it'sG > > necessary.  Autogen advises me to shrink mine, I ignore that as I'm ' > > not that constrained by free space. H > > I also don't like the fact it'll shrink them on one Autogen and then > > grow them. > C > That reminds me of the time I spent monitoring the non-paged pool E > parameters (V6.2) on a cluster with 2 VAXes and 2 Alphas. (We had a I > weekly reboot in order to do standalone backups,  so I got to play with D > this over several weeks.) Autogen was continually trying to adjustJ > NPAGEDYN up or down (by a different percentage on Alpha and VAX BTW), so  C It may be appropriate for different percetages on the two different  architectures.  % > after monitoring we nailed it down.   F This oscillating of NPAGEDYN makes sense and is not a cause for worry.E NPAGEDYN is only the initial size of the non-paged pool. The pool can E be expanded dynamically by the system as needed, but there is a small D penalty for this dynamic expansion, I think it's 4% of the amount of
 expansion.  > So, if AG finds that the pool has been expanded, it will raiseA NPAGEDYN most of the way to the new peak, in a compromise between B trying to minimize the penalty and not to overshoot. If AG insteadF finds the peak size of the pool was NPAGEDYN, it apparently can't tellB if that full amount is needed or not (since the pool never shrinksB dynamically), so it shrinks it by about 10% (on VAX). And that mayA still be bigger than needed. So the next AG might shrink it about E another 10%. So the normal mode is for it to oscillate slightly about C the "real" optimum value, which really can't be pinned down exactly F because the load will change at least slightly from AG to AG. And evenF if you do have a perfectly steady load, NPAGEDYN will still oscillate, but it is not a problem.  D When run weekly on a system with a steady load, NPAGEDYN will settleF down to near the "optimum value" and oscillate slightly about that. IfE NPAGEDYN is initially way too large, it will slowly, week after week, @ settle down to near the "optimum value". This avoids huge single changes in the parameter.   3 This is normal behaviour and no cause for concern.     Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:36:57 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>$ Subject: Re: backgrounding a process, Message-ID: <3F0EF5B9.4020906@tsoft-inc.com>   Keith A. Lewis wrote:    > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes in article <FQS4nLDjqo$v@eisner.encompasserve.org> dated 11 Jul 2003 08:09:39 -0500:  > d >>In article <UhwPa.164828$Ny5.4658686@twister2.libero.it>, "ratman" <romaeur@tiscalinet.it> writes: >>2 >>>How can I background a process on a vms system? >>> G >>  You can't interrupt it and move it to the background if it's aleady ! >>  running (like ^Z on eunchis).  >>' >>  You can start it in the background:  >>C >>    spawn/nowait - a subprocess, dies if the parent process exits  >> > I > Several people have suggested SPAWN/NOWAIT, and that's probably what he L > wants.  But one fact bears mention -- SPAWN/NOWAIT can be interrupted fromN > the keyboard!  Therefore I use SPAWN/NOWAIT/INPUT=NL: for stuff like this.  ' > Well, actually my LOGIN.COM contains:  > , >     $ SNN == "SPA/NOWAIT/NOTIFY/INPUT=NL:" > . > So if I want to use it, it's something like: >  >     $ snn delete *.tmp;* > - > --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org @ > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer. >   N The /INPUT=NL: is a nice idea.  Mine is the same except for that switch.  But  then, shouldn't it be SNNI?   F In any case, if you logout, the subprocess dies.  Might not want that.   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 20:30:00 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> $ Subject: Re: backgrounding a process' Message-ID: <3F0F0228.14E3B9E8@aaa.com>   - I use a tool/hack/whatever called BAT like :.    $ BAT delete *.tmp.*  4 BAT creates a temporary batch command file including4 SET DEF to the currect default and som other things,7 then adds the "command" (all text after the BAT command 4 on the command line. You can also type only BAT like   $ BAT  BAT> delete *.tmp.* * BAT> mail/subj="delete ready !" nl: system
 BAT> <ctrl-Z>   # to run multipe commands in one job.   	 Jan-Erik.    > Keith A. Lewis wrote:  >  > > . > >     $ SNN == "SPA/NOWAIT/NOTIFY/INPUT=NL:" > > 0 > > So if I want to use it, it's something like: > >  > >     $ snn delete *.tmp;*   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2003 16:48:57 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) ' Subject: Disk Problem after 7.3 upgrade 0 Message-ID: <bemppp$h75$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>   Hello,  J after I upgrade an old MicroVAX3100 to OpenVMS 7.3 I have a problem with aN RZ23 disk drive. This drive became somewhat unrealiable. I can't initialize it from other cluster nodes:   + $ init/system/own=system MPI1$DKB500: disk6 ! %INIT-F-MEDOFL, medium is offline   L When I do the same on the node where the drive is physically connected to, I get:  * %INIT-F-OPINCOMPL, operation is incomplete   Thus, what happened here?    Regards,    Christoph Gartmann    --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452   ImmunbiologieA  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de   D-79011  Freiburg, Germany 9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:23:42 GMT 3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) + Subject: Re: Disk Problem after 7.3 upgrade . Message-ID: <29EPa.98$Ql4.35@news.cpqcorp.net>  1 In article <bemppp$h75$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>,  5 gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) writes:   K >after I upgrade an old MicroVAX3100 to OpenVMS 7.3 I have a problem with a O >RZ23 disk drive. This drive became somewhat unrealiable. I can't initialize it  >from other cluster nodes: > , >$ init/system/own=system MPI1$DKB500: disk6" >%INIT-F-MEDOFL, medium is offline > M >When I do the same on the node where the drive is physically connected to, I  >get:  > + >%INIT-F-OPINCOMPL, operation is incomplete  >  >Thus, what happened here?  F I would guess that after many years of quiet, self-scrificing service,* this device has exceeded its usefull life.   $ HELP /MESSAGE OPINCOMPL   $  OPINCOMPL,  operation is incomplete   '   Facility:     SYSTEM, System Services    L   Explanation:  This message indicates a hardware or device driver error andF                 can be returned under any of the following conditions:                 I                 o A write request was issued for a disk device before the D                   unit finished restarting after a hardware failure.                 H                 o An attempt was made to read beyond the logical end-of-3                   volume on a magnetic tape device.                  J                 o On a DR11-W I/O request, a block mode transfer operationH                   completed without transferring the requested number ofJ                   bytes. The DR11-W generates an end-of-transfer interrupt4                   without transferring all the data.                    M   User Action:  For disks or DR11-W devices, check for hardware errors. Check L                 the cabling and configuration. Ensure that the device driverL                 is compatible with the device. Then retry the write request.   --  J       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 13:49:42 -0700) From: ejohnson@factset.com (Eric Johnson) ( Subject: Re: Good code profilers on VMS?= Message-ID: <ef79676b.0307111249.28aaea6a@posting.google.com>   t kenneth.randell@verizon.net (Ken Randell) wrote in message news:<79de9693.0307100911.180ebd0a@posting.google.com>...  D > Would DCPI (as discussed in the current issue of the VMS TechnicalF > journal) be of use here?  I've not used it (on VMS), but it's better > than 'not having one'.  D I'm looking at it again.  I think my big gripe with DCPI was that itF seems aimed at the idea of monitoring a whole box.  Which is certainlyA useful.  But I'd like to narrow its scope to look at just a given  process.  D My reading of the docs suggests that it *will* let me monitor just aD process and report on that, but I'm having trouble getting the right& incantation together to get just that.   -Eric    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 15:25:43 -0700 From: jemby@gtech.com (Jerry) L Subject: Re: How do I determine which processor I am running on (alpha SMP)?= Message-ID: <8ac07e79.0307111425.5fbda56d@posting.google.com>   i rcbryan@hotmail.com (RC Bryan) wrote in message news:<fbcf38dc.0307101119.767ac76d@posting.google.com>... G > I have been reading about the RSCC PALcode instruction that returns a A > 64 bit count of clocks since some base time.  Since this is per ? > processor, I have to ask is there a fast way to find out what D > processor I am running on?  The SYS$GETJPI system service can giveF > this information but where does it get the information from?  I haveF > been searching my AARM for something that would return the processor1 > number and have not been able to find anything.  >  > Any ideas? >  > Thanks > /RC Bryan I That information for the CPU number is kept in the PCB (  PCB$L_CPU_ID ).    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:33:32 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>4 Subject: Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense* Message-ID: <3F0EF4EC.90301@tsoft-inc.com>   Bill Todd wrote:  : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:pBx3zhfXrEpY@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > > >>In article <bekmbo$ipn$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>, Dirk Munk >> > <munk@home.nl> writes: > G >>>And then suddenly we hear "Hallelujah, we have seen The Light. It is  >>>  > called > G >>>Itanium, and it will lead us to paradise". Now why should we believe  >>> 
 > that in the  > G >>>light of earlier statements by Compaq ? Were those statements lies ?  >>>  >>> @ >>No.  That was what was believed up until the time they decided> >>otherwise.  Terry's piece is pretty clear.  High-level Alpha< >>folks under heavy NDA were allowed to peak under the Intel >>Itanium covers.  >> > J > But not, to all appearances, high-level Alpha *chip* folk who would have4 > been qualified to assess what was being presented.      This is all a bunch of bullshit!  M The bottom line is that Compaq upper management didn't want to be in the CPU  P business.  That's the whole story.  But they didn't have the sense to just come N out and say that.  No, we have to send some people to talk to Intel.  But not M those who could have a decent conversation with Intel.  Compaq didn't WANT a  . decent conversation, just another smokescreen.  N If Compaq would have just announced that CPUs were not in their future plans, M and left it at that, there would not be these recriminations.  People didn't  Q have to like it, but they would have accepted it.  No, they have to come up with  N the 'BIG LIE'!  Makes you wonder whether top executives even know how to tell O the truth, even when it's in their best interest.  Maybe it's because they get  Q away with the 'BIG LIE' most of the time.  Their mistake this time was to try it  ; on people who have an attention span longer then 2 minutes.     ) Dave, disgusted with revisionist history.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 13:46:26 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 4 Subject: Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense3 Message-ID: <$HrnfjR6+4lM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <EymdnW6gaLPYQ5OiXTWJig@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:   K > That might be significant if the CPUs were the dominant cost component of ) > large systems, Rob.  But they aren't.     6 	Sure they are.  Take the IBM high-end offering.  Each2 	8-way MCM lists for $375000.  There are 4 of them8 	in this config, for a total list price of $1.5 million:  H http://www.tpc.org/results/individual_results/IBM/IBMp690es_06302003.pdf  ; 	The largest costing thing there in the system and overall.   @ 	Now maybe you are getting really cheeky and the wiggle language8 	is "dominant cost", pointing out memory is also a large9 	component and if you add up ALL the other compenents CPU  	cost isn't dominant?   D 	The major thing large system vendors on large systems have control E 	over is CPU costs/pricing.  So this is a significant issue.  Unless  A 	you have a different meaning of significant or something else in  	mind?    9 >>  So Itanium begins to dominate the HPC space in        @ >> a year (and no - Opteron clock cranking up won't even bring  ) >> it close to Deerfield in SpecFp).        L > Do you even roughly estimate the numbers before spewing such garbage, Rob?  , 	Implying some sort of oversight on my part?  M > Deerfield runs at the same speed as McKinley with half as much cache.  That D > means that it will generate SPECfp scores in the 1260 - 1270 area,  H 	Right.  I'm selling futures.  I'm thinking 2nd/3rd quarter 2004.  Let'sF 	be generous and boost Opteron's speed 30% and compare those two then.   	See slide 37:  : http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/ccn/salishan2003/pdf/golliver.pdf  E 	Note also, the follow-on Deerfield in 2005.  Problem is, AMD doesn't > 	have the resources.  Maybe someday AMD turns a profit.  Maybe 	not.  	  > G >> By the way, why do IBM, Dell, HP, etc. insist on selling 4-way Xeons B >> instead of 4-way Opteron's?  It isn't as if Opteron hasn't been >> out for a while.  > J > Earth to Rob:  4-processor Opteron boxes (and the MPUs in them) appearedL > this month.  IBM announced its 2-processor 1U Opteron boxes last month forM > shipment this year - which means they'll ship sooner after Opteron's launch D > date than IBM's Itanic2 boxes shipped after Itanic2's launch date. >   = 	Right.  Where is IBM's 4-processor Opteron?  Doesn't it make @ 	sense for IBM to offer a 4-processor Opteron to compete against> 	a 4-processor Xeon?  Not likely.  No money to be made selling- 	4-way Opterons.  The CPU is too cheap.  LOL.    				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:50:20 GMT 9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> 4 Subject: Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense/ Message-ID: <0yEPa.100$jc4.57@news.cpqcorp.net>   5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message $ news:3F0EF4EC.90301@tsoft-inc.com... > > L > > But not, to all appearances, high-level Alpha *chip* folk who would have6 > > been qualified to assess what was being presented. >  > " > This is all a bunch of bullshit! > J > The bottom line is that Compaq upper management didn't want to be in the CPU L > business.  That's the whole story.  But they didn't have the sense to just comeK > out and say that.  No, we have to send some people to talk to Intel.  But  not L > those who could have a decent conversation with Intel.  Compaq didn't WANT a 0 > decent conversation, just another smokescreen. >   K Calm down Dave.  I don't think that "Compaq upper management didn't want to L be in the CPU business",  I think Compaq upper management wanted to know howH to continue to be in the CPU business and make a profit doing it.  UpperH management in almost any company of size these days don't care what theyL make, as long as it's profitable (the downfall of America - the MBA degree).  J Bill, in his isolation takes the gospel according to chip designers... whoJ after all are really good at designing and building chips, but perhaps notJ so good at understanding all the associated costs of building not just theI chips, but the entire infrastructure that goes with being unique.  I know K some of the people who had the conversation with Intel, and I don't believe K they started with the idea of killing Alpha.  Bill and the black helocopter H guys want to believe that it started with the decision, and the rest wasK just justification.  That may be true in Washington these days, but I don't   think that's what happened here.  H > If Compaq would have just announced that CPUs were not in their future plans,G > and left it at that, there would not be these recriminations.  People  didn'tJ > have to like it, but they would have accepted it.  No, they have to come up with J > the 'BIG LIE'!  Makes you wonder whether top executives even know how to tellL > the truth, even when it's in their best interest.  Maybe it's because they get K > away with the 'BIG LIE' most of the time.  Their mistake this time was to  try it= > on people who have an attention span longer then 2 minutes.  >   K Within the bounds of certain executives trying to make the announcements in G certain quarters and some amount of time wrapping up the details of the I plan, it would seem that they announced it at least within months of when 7 they had made the decision.  I don't see the "BIG lie".    > + > Dave, disgusted with revisionist history.  >   F All history is revisionist.  The winners of wars write the story.  TheJ historian and the reader filters the story through the eyes of someone whoE didn't live at the time.  Memorys grow fuzzy.  Opinion replaces fact.  Grudges become crusades.  K Do I wish that *I* had known about the high-level concerns about Alpha, and K the ultimate decision *earlier* -- sure.  But of course, I'm not an officer K of the company and somehow I think that what was being considered had to be G kept confidential until it had been examined - and decided on by senior  management and the BOD.   L Was I happy?  No.  In retrospect, do I understand?  Yes.  Do I feel lied to?J Despite having been kept in the dark, I don't feel lied to or used in someH malicious way.  Am I satisfied in retrospect with the decision?  Yup.  IL loved VAX, I love Alpha, and I will learn to love IA64.  I didn't love Alpha at first either.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 14:25:26 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 4 Subject: Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense3 Message-ID: <ywhFm9pIvP6r@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <3F0ED310.5010302@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:    >> >>  E >> 	[Madison] It is good and fast today, no matter how you splice it.  >  > O > See above comment about 'real' applications vs benchmarks.  You gonna try to  3 > optimize for EPIC every little program you write?  >   F 	Pick a benchmark, any benchmark.  Madison leads, unless I overlooked.C 	Good optimizing compilers ensure things run fast.  If significant, @ 	you always benchmark your application on a target machine.  The> 	fact that Madison is leading in most every benchmark categoryA 	tells me it is a very good performer, therefore a good candidate 4 	for any application where performance is an isssue.   >>   >>>In fact I get the  R >>>idea that a  present day Itanium is a very big cache module with a CPU burried P >>>somewhere. I wonder what would happen if a Opteron would get that much cache. >>>  >>  " >> 	It wouldn't run very fast ;-). >  > N > Did you get that FACT at one of those Intel NDA sessions?  Could you please > > quote a source for this FACT?  Inquiring minds want to know. >   = 	Spend some time in realworldtech.com.  Read some of Intel's   	own bragging.  See slide 38:   : http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/ccn/salishan2003/pdf/golliver.pdf  A 	Getting large on-chip caches to run fast is not an easy thing to  	do.   >>  > >> 	That's okay.  A nice niche for AMD.  Maybe they sell a fewD >> 	to rabid gamers.  Maybe not.  Maybe someday they get a profit.   >> 	Maybe not. >  > R > Uh, Rob, where did Intel make all this money you've been heard to say that they R > can 'throw' at IA-64 until it's a world beater?  Sorry, I didn't hear you.  Did S > you whisper 'the desktop'?  Where would Intel be without 'the desktop'?  Care to   > hazard a guess?  >   $ 	And sorry - I'm missing your point.   >>  S >>>Oh yes, and some time ago you wanted to know which HP rep told me that HP would  R >>>build Opteron systems. That was absolutely not true. Just a few weeks later we S >>>could find the specs of this system in the HP web site. No wonder, this time HP  S >>>management is right. If the Opteron is a success and HP has no Opteron systems,  ( >>>HP will loose big market shares...... >>>  >>>  >>  B >> 	You are mixing up Opteron and A64.  A desktop is not a server. >>  I >> 	Don't worry about Opteron being a business server success.  You can't A >> 	make money selling Opterons.  The CPU price is too low.  LOL.  >  > R > Once again Rob, will you tell me where Intel got all this money you insist they 9 > have?  Don't whisper, speak up, we all know the answer.  >   D 	Server parts are much lower volume.  If Intel makes $10,$20,$30 perA 	CPU selling desktop CPUs and sells 30 million a year, that is a  H 	sustainable business model.  If turning their attention to servers theyH 	made that amount, they are out of business.  The 2.8 GHz Xeon MP lists ? 	for somewhere near $3000.  The Opteron $700 or so.  Large OEM  E 	discount should knock 50% off the list price.  A 4-way 2.8 GHz Xeon  F 	server from a large OEM would have somewhere around $6000 CPU profit D 	built-in.  Maybe more, maybe less.  Moving to Opteron, a large OEM G 	would have maybe $1400 in CPU profit built-in.  It makes little sense  C 	to change from 4-way Xeons to 4-way Opterons for large OEMs.  The  D 	financial planners won't let the engineers make that decision.  It 6 	makes a lot of sense for no-names, mom and pops, etc.D 	to sell 4-way Opteron servers.  They certainly aren't getting largeD 	OEM discounts and have everything to gain by selling the lower cost 	4-way Opteron server.  : 	Anticpating a follow-up, check the prices of 2-way Xeons.  @ 	All this makes sense to you, doesn't it?  I sold things before,A 	I know how much markup is in various product lines, etc.  you do  	too.    				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:56:46 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>4 Subject: Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense, Message-ID: <3F0F329E.7080304@tsoft-inc.com>   Rob Young wrote:    > >>>	That's okay.  A nice niche for AMD.  Maybe they sell a fewD >>>	to rabid gamers.  Maybe not.  Maybe someday they get a profit.   >>>	Maybe not. >>>  >>R >>Uh, Rob, where did Intel make all this money you've been heard to say that they R >>can 'throw' at IA-64 until it's a world beater?  Sorry, I didn't hear you.  Did S >>you whisper 'the desktop'?  Where would Intel be without 'the desktop'?  Care to   >>hazard a guess?  >> >> > & > 	And sorry - I'm missing your point.  O The point is, Intel is what it is today, big and rich, because of the desktop.  Q I'm assuming that you'll agree with that.  If you do, then explain why Intel can  K become dominant in it's market, because of the desktop, but the desktop is  Q meaningless to any other CPU manufacturer?  If you don't, we're both wasting our   time.   Q So unless you can tell me how Intel is going to stop people with with nameplates  P like 'CEO' and 'CIO', many who could get by with an 8088, from just 'having' to J have a '64-bit computer' on their desktop?  Once it starts there, it WILL 
 trickle down.   L Do you think that Intel can ignore the desktop and pin it's survival on the M 'server' market?  DEC was in the server market.  Somehow I don't think Intel  Q will think the server market will substain them.  I think that they'll fight for  N the desktop with everything they have, can beg, borrow, or steal.  IA-64 will # not do well in such an environment.    Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:16:27 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>4 Subject: Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense, Message-ID: <3F0F373B.5040302@tsoft-inc.com>   Rob Young wrote:    F > 	Server parts are much lower volume.  If Intel makes $10,$20,$30 perC > 	CPU selling desktop CPUs and sells 30 million a year, that is a  J > 	sustainable business model.  If turning their attention to servers theyJ > 	made that amount, they are out of business.  The 2.8 GHz Xeon MP lists A > 	for somewhere near $3000.  The Opteron $700 or so.  Large OEM  G > 	discount should knock 50% off the list price.  A 4-way 2.8 GHz Xeon  H > 	server from a large OEM would have somewhere around $6000 CPU profit F > 	built-in.  Maybe more, maybe less.  Moving to Opteron, a large OEM I > 	would have maybe $1400 in CPU profit built-in.  It makes little sense  E > 	to change from 4-way Xeons to 4-way Opterons for large OEMs.  The  A > 	financial planners won't let the engineers make that decision.     P This sounds way too much like DEC trying to hold up the margins on VAX systems, 1 and losing market share, and finally the company.   N If a thing is possible, and you won't do it because you will make less money, 9 someone else will do it, and you will not make any money.   P Do you really think that if some white box manufacturers are making and selling P Opteron based servers, for less than Dell can sell a Xeon based server, that it P will take Mikey more than 2 seconds to get moving on some Opteron based servers?   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 19:47:27 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 4 Subject: Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense3 Message-ID: <cQvSP4boO6H4@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <3F0F373B.5040302@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > Rob Young wrote: >  > G >> 	Server parts are much lower volume.  If Intel makes $10,$20,$30 per D >> 	CPU selling desktop CPUs and sells 30 million a year, that is a K >> 	sustainable business model.  If turning their attention to servers they K >> 	made that amount, they are out of business.  The 2.8 GHz Xeon MP lists  B >> 	for somewhere near $3000.  The Opteron $700 or so.  Large OEM H >> 	discount should knock 50% off the list price.  A 4-way 2.8 GHz Xeon I >> 	server from a large OEM would have somewhere around $6000 CPU profit  G >> 	built-in.  Maybe more, maybe less.  Moving to Opteron, a large OEM  J >> 	would have maybe $1400 in CPU profit built-in.  It makes little sense F >> 	to change from 4-way Xeons to 4-way Opterons for large OEMs.  The B >> 	financial planners won't let the engineers make that decision. >  > R > This sounds way too much like DEC trying to hold up the margins on VAX systems, 3 > and losing market share, and finally the company.  > P > If a thing is possible, and you won't do it because you will make less money, ; > someone else will do it, and you will not make any money.  >   B 	A whole bunch of someone elses will do it, but they are nobodies.  = 	The large OEMs - HP, Dell, IBM are making boatloads of money > 	selling 4-way Xeons.  The only thing moving to 4-way Opterons? 	and pushing them would be to make less money - a lot less.  So = 	for the large OEMs that are getting big discounts on per-cpu F 	pricing, they have a huge financial dis-incentive to move to Opteron.? 	Again, mom and pops receive no such discount so those 1000 CPU ? 	prices make very good sense to go the Opteron route.  Dell and @ 	others - a totally different game.  High-rollers like Dell, HP,/ 	IBM, get special 100000 CPU pricing discounts.   R > Do you really think that if some white box manufacturers are making and selling R > Opteron based servers, for less than Dell can sell a Xeon based server, that it R > will take Mikey more than 2 seconds to get moving on some Opteron based servers?  B 	Absolutely no move to Opteron on 4-ways!  Mike Dell is all about @ 	business.  Making a whole lot less money selling 4-way Opterons? 	makes absolutely no business sense.  Last time I checked, nary @ 	a server out of the 200 Intel servers I walk past now and again= 	were whitebox.  Mid-size and larger businesses generally buy C 	quality, i.e. tier-1 OEM.  Besides, the first large OEM that trulytF 	makes a break to Opteron puts ALL their secret large Intel discounts F 	at risk.  They wouldn't want to sell a lot less desktops, would they?  ? 	Perhaps if AMD had a good desktop solution, maybe someone getsw= 	frisky.  AMD is rather moribound on the desktop - near death 
 	actually.   				Robs   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 20:33:39 -0500 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> . Subject: Re: New lexical function F$DELTA_TIME& Message-ID: <3F0F6573.D6BD3B9@fsi.net>   John Santos wrote: > / > On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David J. Dachtera wrote:i >  > > Jim Strehlow wrote:e > > >eV > > > Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com> wrote in message news:<3F0D7BFC.383CB534@hp.com>...D > > > ... with the next Alpha VMS version V7.3-2, we will ship a new' > > > lexical function F$DELTA_TIME ...w > > >s$ > > > Having optional parameters for: > > > (..., "day"|"hour"|"minute"|"second", variableName )@ > > > would be "nice" to save us from parsing the result string;+ > > > but we can parse if we have to do so.  > > >iZ > > > It would save us from writing an extra couple of lines of code (our own subroutine). > >e > > Just tried these for fun...  > >i? > > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ say f$cvtime( "0 01:23:45.67", "delta" )2 > > 0 001:23:45.67 > 9 > $ write sys$output f$cvtime( "2 01:23:45.67", "delta" ) B > %DCL-W-IVDTIME, invalid delta time - use DDDD-HH:MM:SS.CC format >  \2 01:23:45.67\   Hhmmm...  ; DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ say f$cvtime( "1 23:45:67.89", "delta" )r@ %DCL-W-IVDTIME, invalid delta time - use DDDD-HH:MM:SS.CC format  \1 23:45:67.89\  . Well! Looks like we found a bug in F$CVTIME()!   V7.2-2, BTW. What's yours?   -- l David J. Dachteras dba DJE SystemsQ http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 20:46:25 -0500x1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>). Subject: Re: New lexical function F$DELTA_TIME' Message-ID: <3F0F6871.1F5E05D3@fsi.net>t   John Santos wrote: > / > On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David J. Dachtera wrote:f >  > >d > > Seems to me that > > 9 > > $ SAY F$CVTI( F$DELTA( START, END ), "DELTA", field )S > > C > > ...should work just fine. Well, except that the hour field getsa" > > zero-padded to three digits... > B > Maybe not...  I don't recall if F$DELTA puts the "-" between theB > days and hours in its output.  (If I go back and look, I'll lose; > this followup and would have to re-create it.  Bad Pine!)   2 Guess that'll have to be three statements minimum:  $ $ DELTA_TIME = F$DELTA( START, END ): $ DLTA = F$FAO( "!AS-!AS", F$ELEM( 0, " ", DELTA_TIME ), - 	F$ELEM( 1, " ", DELTA_TIME ) )F& $ SAY F$CVTIME( DLTA, "DELTA", field )   --   David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemsl http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 20:07:47 +0100r' From: Elliott Roper <elliott@yrl.co.uk>h$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates2 Message-ID: <110720032007475862%elliott@yrl.co.uk>  ? In article <bekbut$3m2$1@aton.pcde.inka.de>, Dennis Grevensteind <dennis@pcde.inka.de> wrote:  3 > In alt.sys.pdp11 healyzh@noaracnetspam.com wrote:o > > K > > Is OS-11 related to RT-11?  I think this is the first I've heard of it.u >  s1 > It's mentioned in some RT-11 guide I have here.O > I don't know it myself.a  C It has been a long time, so I might be wrong. ISTR there was not an F OS-11 but there was a DOS-11 in the very early PDP-11 days. There were remnants of it in the RSTS CIL.n  * Yep. I found this on Deja-Google from 1994  H http://www.google.com/groups?q=DOS-11&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=o0 ff&selm=940927100650.62%40arisia.gce.com&rnum=13  ! If Everhart said it, it is right.   D Show complete thread when you get there. Some famous names are still around here.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 2003 00:57:00 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates, Message-ID: <benmcs028j6@enews2.newsguy.com>  @ In vmsnet.pdp-11 Dennis Grevenstein <dennis@pcde.inka.de> wrote:3 > In alt.sys.pdp11 healyzh@noaracnetspam.com wrote:i >>  J >> Is OS-11 related to RT-11?  I think this is the first I've heard of it. >  p1 > It's mentioned in some RT-11 guide I have here.n > I don't know it myself.   @ I just found the following post from Sept. 2002 from Tim Shoppa:& "The RT-11 Historical Overview states:  A   The year 1971 was an exciting time...A popular operating system E   for the PDP-8, called OS/8, was the design model for the new PDP-11a/   operating system, tentatively called OS-11...k  @   ...in the fall of 1972...the groundwork was laid to make OS-11%   compatible with OS/8 and TOPS-10...o  D   OS-11 was renamed first to RTPS-11 (Real-Time Programming System),E   then to RT-11 (Real Time).  Version 1 of RT-11 was completed in thei   fall of 1973."   			Zane    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:36:39 GMTl' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net>c Subject: Re: Pearl Users+ Message-ID: <3F0F03F7.2BC22B6A@pacbell.net>    Rob Young wrote: > W > In article <3F0D9DFC.8CB8FA99@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> writes:n > >lG > > I don't know Pearl at all, but it seems to be very popular with COV"
 > > folks.? > > Can anyone give me a brief list of its advantages over DCL?a > >  > 3 >         Pearl must be Perl's cousin or something.n > G I TOLD you I didn't know it at all!:) I assume is an acronym then. What  does it stand for?    * >         Advantages, sure ... by example: > M > If you had the entire header of a normal Unix email message in $header, you3: > could split it up into fields and their values this way: > 7 >     $header =~ s/\n\s+/ /g;  # fix continuation lines0= >     %hdrs   =  (UNIX_FROM => split /^(.*?):\s*/m, $header);n > K >         Surely I am jesting?  Advantages are it is a powerful programmingeI >         language.  Very esoteric it appears, but like anything I'm sureP >         you get used to it.i > % >                                 Robw   --     Have VMS, Will Traveln Wire paladin, San Francisco    (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:40:41 GMTo' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net>  Subject: Re: Pearl Users+ Message-ID: <3F0F04E9.F04AF121@pacbell.net>r   "Craig A. Berry" wrote:  > - > In article <3F0D9DFC.8CB8FA99@pacbell.net>,h+ >  Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> wrote:t > G > > I don't know Pearl at all, but it seems to be very popular with COVe
 > > folks.? > > Can anyone give me a brief list of its advantages over DCL?  > % > Assuming you mean Perl, not Pearl, P  * I did indeed. Sorry about the misspelling.   the following message from theG > vmsperl archives and subsequent messages in the same thread cover thei > topic pretty well. > J > <http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/vmsperl/2000-11/msg00209.html>    ) That did lead to some good stuff. Thanks.i   -- u   Have VMS, Will Travel  Wire paladin, San Francisco    (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 13:48:20 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e2 Subject: Re: Portents of itanium death - revisited3 Message-ID: <nQRo3fcy8Kuk@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  _ In article <L9udne0bLuJwQpOiXTWJhQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  >    >>N > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9uacnRGAn7eE9WSjXTWJkA%40metrocast.net& > oe=UTF-8&output=gplain >> >> Rob Young writes: >>- >> >  If so, shouldn't we expect that 2.8 GHzl: >> > Xeon 4-way to shoot past a 4-way Opteron quite a bit? >> >> Bill Todd writes: >>E >> I'm guessing around 100K tpmC, if the memory speed also increases.  > E > Look at the last 6 words above, Rob.  Your original suggestion saidnM > absolutely nothing about other changes, and that's what I responded to.  IteM > was only after you suggested that the memory speed would also be increasing  > that I wrote the above.w >    >>> >> Keyword there is: identical.  I suppose with faster memory,? >> it jumps to your guess of 100000 tpmC or so.  After all, the > >> Xeon 2.8 boxes won't be hobbled with slower memory forever. > K > You were assuming that they wouldn't be hobbled with PC1600 memory *now*,uM > Rob.  You were wrong (as usual).  Now you're assuming that a new chipset isiL > in the wings with a faster FSB - once again, without a shred of basis save > your own hopes.     8 	That and your prediction.  So when do you expect we see. 	100K tmpC with 4-way Xeons?  Sooner or later?   				Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 01:36:41 -0400n  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: PPPOE? When? How?4 Message-ID: <1030712005747.410B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ) On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Chris Scheers wrote:,   > Ken Fairfield wrote: > >  > > Reinhard Eigner wrote: > > >o2 > > > > > I want to pppoe from my Alpha to my ISP.Q > > > > > I found in the FAQ that there is no such PPP for the moment for obscurei > > > > > reasons (to me).	 > > > > >w@ > > > > > Did anyone succeed to do that with a particular tool ? > > > >eB > > > > Yes, with an integrated modem-router (on a DSL connexion). > > > >HC > > > I suggest the same. I also use a DSL router at home, where my2: > > > two PC Systems and my PWS600au@VMS7.3-1 are running.B > > > That's the easiest way to bring your machine in the internet > > I > >         Can you give an example of such an integrated "modem-router"?oF > > My DSL modem was supplied by the vendor (Verizon if you care), andF > > I've since picked up a Linksys from a colleague to put betweem theE > > modem and my PC and (soon to arrive) PWS600au.  Being very new toWI > > "home networking", I'd appreciate any tips or references people could  > > supply.  >  > H > You don't need an integrated modem-router.  You already have the modem) > that Verizon wants you to use.  Use it.   C I think this comment is specifically addressed to Ken, who is using B Verizon.  ISTR the original poster was European (Didier Morandi?),) and the situation there may be different.    > H > If the Linksys box you were given is one of their cable routers, i.e.,J > it has a WAN port, the Linksys box can do the PPPoE negotiation for you. > F > You plug the cable modem into the WAN port on the Linksys.  You plugJ > your PCs and PWS to the LAN ports (Assuming there are enough LAN ports. F > Otherwise, plug a switch into one of the LAN ports and then plug the > computers into the switch.)   D With Verizon, it's a DSL modem, not a cable modem, but the principle is the same.  G > You connect to the Linksys with a web browser to configure it.  There E > should be a page where you can set up your PPPoE login information.  > * > This should get you started.  Good luck!  = I got a Linksys BEFSR41 about a month after I got Verizon DSLt> service.  At the time, you needed to use a PC (or maybe a Mac)@ to run their hacked-up, old version of Netscape to configure the= PPPoE connection.  It told you somehow what your Verizon user  ID and password were.h  C Once you had this info, you could connect the PC to a PPPoE-capablenC router (such as the BEFSR41), use any web browser to connect to itsm? setup screen, enter the user ID and password and turn on PPPoE.lE Permanently turn off PPPoE (WinPOET) on the PC, and optionally remove-C it with NukePOET (like the name!), and junk the obsolete version ofm Netscape they installed.    @ Then hook the WAN port on the router to the DSL modem and you'reA all set.  (May have to power-cycle the modem and/or the router to@ get it to renegotiate.)   ? Since then I've added a MicroVAX 3600 and an old Win98 PC to myc? LAN.  I'm planning to add an AlphaStation (building a cluster),VB and maybe a Mac, and convert the Win98 PC to Linux, and eventually? get my PDP-11 reassembled (RSTS/E V10.1), but that's all in thegE future.  Everything talks fine to the internet via the Linksys's NAT.e> I don't (currently) allow any inbound services, so the Linksys. default config to block everything works fine.   ---r  B I think some things have changed since then...  If you have WinXP,> you don't need to install their PPPoP program, but can use theA built-in PPPoE.  If you have Linux or a router (or something else @ that supports PPPoE but isn't a PC or Mac), I think you can callA their support number and they will enable the DSL circuit for youhA and tell you what the ID and password are.  Since, at least for a3A while, they were offering a "Home network" package that consistedr@ of a Linksys router and a couple of extra cables, in addition toA the standard stuff (modem, DSL filters, cables, optional Ethernetc@ NIC), I think they treat this as routine.  You should check with) someone who has actually done it, though.    ---i  > You definitely want to use the latest firmware in the Linksys.; It went through about a dozen versions in the 1st 6 months,b; almost all of them definite improvements.  (I don't think Ia= ever had to back one out, though sometimes they did introduce ; minor bugs.)  It's been a lot more stable lately, about 4-6d= months between firmware updates.  (In fact, I should probablyn; check to see if there is a new one...)  I don't know if the-: newer models of routers have been as "version de jour", or= not, but if the firmware in yours is more than about 6 months:" old, I would definitely update it.     ---3  ; Out of the box, the Linksys wants to be a DHCP server at IPg> address 192.168.1.1.  For various reasons, I wanted my systemsC to have static addresses, and I wanted to be on network 192.168.5.03< This was easy to configure on the Linksys.  I told it to use; LAN address 192.168.5.1, and to serve addresses starting ate: 192.168.5.100, and it is happy to talk to (and provide NATA forwarding for) the static addresses on the LAN (192.168.5.2-99).h@ I set up a DNS server on my VAX (TCPWare V5.6-2), so the systems= can talk to each other by name.  (Latest TCPware, and I thinkp? Multinet and HP TCP/IP services will function as a DHCP client,t< so this is an alternative now.)  If a friend drops by with a= portable PC or Mac, or if I ever get an IP-capable toaster, Io= should be able to just plug it an and it should work, since Ia left DHCP enabled.    > If you have any other questions about using Verizon DSL with a> Linksys router (and VMS!), let me know, since what you want to- do sounds almost identical to what I'm doing.    -- t John Santosy Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:08:23 -0700 , From: Ken Fairfield <My.Full.Name@intel.com>B Subject: Q: How to close and reopen detached process's Sys$Output?) Message-ID: <3F0F3557.2750455D@intel.com>h  0 Using: Compaq C V6.5-001 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1  D I'm trying to enhance an existing program, written in C and run as aA detached process, to periodically close it's stdout/stderr (i.e.,oD Sys$Output as specified in the /Output qualifier to RUN), and reopen a new version of the file.  A In order that the output (log) file be readable while the processy> is running (and it may run for months at a time), I've alreadyA added code to the beginning of main that looks roughly like this:n  A -----------------------------------------------------------------              fclose(stderr);              fclose(stdout);0=             stdout = fopen("sys$output", "w", "shr=get,put");r             stderr = stdout;'             fd_stdout = fileno(stdout);7"             fd_stderr = fd_stdout;A ------------------------------------------------------------------  D The points here being that (1) the "shr=get,put" in the fopen allowsC the file to be read while open for write, and (2) that I wanted thecE stderr to write to the same file as stdout.  The last two lines allow"G me to call fflush and fsync after blocks of output to force that outputn@ to be written immediately to the file, but they are not strictly
 necessary > if one is willing to wait for the C RTL to do its own periodic flushing...8  @ I now find that if I do the above fclsoe's and fopen in a simple	 for-loop l; with some output in the body, the loop executes (apparentlyv
 successfully)BE but the behaviour is as if Sys$Output was opened for _append_, rathert! than a new version being created.a  E What do I need to do to make successive executions of the above blockiC of code (suitably modified) open a NEW version of the /Output file?e   	Thanks, Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfieldr" D1C Automation VMS System Support ) kenneth[dt]h[dt]fairfield[ta]intel[dt]com    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 14:31:41 -0700% From: deepakonline@myway.com (Deepak)iY Subject: Re: Redirecting screen output from FMS to files and displaying them  using an emu= Message-ID: <38dea33f.0307111331.78eb07e1@posting.google.com>   $ > but, what do you mean by a "dump"?  D They want to get rid of the VMS system, but still be able to see theD static data in the online FMS screens exactly as they are doing now. ForfA this they want to dump all the screen views possible (millions of  them)1E into files. This dump should be in a format that is understandable to A a screen emulator. So that when they need to see the screen for adD particular key, they can use the emulator to read the dump file and D display the screen. So it will look as though they are seeing an FMS: screen though the emulator will be running on Unix/Windows  D > do you want to print off the screen to allow the new developers to > duplicate it?l   No, that is not the idea.   ; > do you need "functional" electronic copies of the screen?t   Yes, that's the idea.f     Thanks,    Deepak  g Jim Agnew - VCU/MCV Neurosurgery <jpagnew@vcu.edu> wrote in message news:<3F0EBBA2.13A94622@vcu.edu>...o1 > sorry to hear that you company is that offbeat.t > I > however, you can write up "screen scrapers" in Kermit to download this.  > $ > but, what do you mean by a "dump"? > D > do you want to print off the screen to allow the new developers to > duplicate it?e > . > do you need electronic copies of the screen? > ; > do you need "functional" electronic copies of the screen?l > , > can you enlighten us with your wants, sir? >  > Jimo >  > Deepak wrote:- > >  > > Hi,  > > J > > The company I work for is shutting down their VMS system at the end ofJ > > the year. We use FMS for displaying online screens. We want to know if > > there is some way we can > > I > > 1. Dump the FMS screen output from online applications to text files.0 > > 2 > > 2. Display this screen dump using an emulator. > > J > > Is there any way we can do this? I would greatly appreciate if someone! > > could suggest some solutions.  > > G > > Also, we are using VT400 7-bit emulators (Attachmate Enterprise andrJ > > WRQ Reflection) to diplay the VMS screens now. Is there any way we can? > > display the corresponding screen dumps in a VT220 emulator.  > > 4 > > Please post a reply if you have any suggestions. > >  > > Thank you. > > 
 > > Deepak   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:27:51 -0400j/ From: "Joe H. Gallagher" <dtrwiz@ix.netcom.com>IY Subject: Re: Redirecting screen output from FMS to files and displaying them using an emun- Message-ID: <3F0F01A4.AE7C5E2B@ix.netcom.com>o  
 Deepak wrote:n >  > Hi,s > H > The company I work for is shutting down their VMS system at the end ofH > the year. We use FMS for displaying online screens. We want to know if > there is some way we can > G > 1. Dump the FMS screen output from online applications to text files.i > 0 > 2. Display this screen dump using an emulator. > H > Is there any way we can do this? I would greatly appreciate if someone > could suggest some solutions.  > E > Also, we are using VT400 7-bit emulators (Attachmate Enterprise and H > WRQ Reflection) to diplay the VMS screens now. Is there any way we can= > display the corresponding screen dumps in a VT220 emulator.b > 2 > Please post a reply if you have any suggestions. >  > Thank you. >  > Deepak  < One possible way to do this is to log in a second time using   	$ set host 0/log=logfile.txta  % Then run the application and log out.e  9 All of the screen interaction is captured in the logfile.   ? Then using your favorite editor, you may (very, very carffully)l= strip out unwanted info from the logfile.  You are then left   with exactly what you want.t   Joe H. Gallagher   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 21:32:17 +02002 From: "Lars Holmstrm" <lars.holmstrom@flysta.net>, Subject: Re: Serial Connection over Ethernet( Message-ID: <3f0f10c0$1@news.wineasy.se>   How much is cheap ?t	 250 USD ?l  - "Rolona" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in messages2 news:7XDPa.3$uO5.1@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...F > I need to do some work on a system miles away and need access to the consolepG > from where I am. I have Wan access to the same room. Anyone know of a < > "cheap" way to rig up the console of a VAX over an IP WAN? >t >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 20:05:23 +0100 " From: "Rolona" <nospam@nospam.com>( Subject: Serial Connection over Ethernet8 Message-ID: <7XDPa.3$uO5.1@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>  L I need to do some work on a system miles away and need access to the consoleE from where I am. I have Wan access to the same room. Anyone know of ah: "cheap" way to rig up the console of a VAX over an IP WAN?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:30:09 +0200s From: "B.Eckstein" <eck@ivu.de>g, Subject: Re: Serial Connection over Ethernet- Message-ID: <bendqe$79i$1@swifty.westend.com>o  ( Rolona schrub im Jahre 11.07.2003 21:05:  N > I need to do some work on a system miles away and need access to the consoleG > from where I am. I have Wan access to the same room. Anyone know of a.< > "cheap" way to rig up the console of a VAX over an IP WAN?  E DecServer700. Or something like that. There are also loads of single a/ port servers to find on the net e.g. www.wut.de-   -- aH B.Eckstein, eck@ivu.de          Cheap, Fast, Good - pick any two of them9 Die FAQ zu de.comp.hardware.netzwerke: http://how.to/dchneH Tips und Tricks zum Mozilla & Netscape 6/7: http://www.holgermetzger.de/H I want your VAX http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/iwantyou.html   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 14:32:55 -0700+ From: seanobanion@attbi.com (Sean O'Banion)r> Subject: Re: vms security model - does it still exist on IA64?= Message-ID: <f883d5a4.0307111332.5337bc51@posting.google.com>m  > Where was it?  In the center, in between two others, or on the outside?  F I realize this ranks up there in the "what has that got to do with theB price of eggs" along with the aspect ratio of the screen for threeD strip CINARAMA from the point of view of the projector box (2.06:1), but I gotta ask...     Sean    ] hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote in message news:<YhZOa.4227$ET1.2384@news.cpqcorp.net>...es > In article <b7aTdEKsmS1V@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:ng > :In article <mowOa.63373$n%5.61267@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>, bob smith <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> writes:o > :> h > :>   > :> Hoff Hoffman wrote: > :> sL > :>>   Extra credit question: which VAX implementation had five modes. :-)  >  .+ > :> I believe it is something called SEVMS. > :dE > :   Hoff sure looks to be asking about hardware, SEVMS is software.o >  > H >   The Nautilus-class VAX platform (VAX 8800 and friends) had a specialL >   variant of the Nautilus platform microcode that effectively implemented I >   an additional processor mode -- another ring.  The standard microcodeaH >   for the platform implemented "just" four modes.  There were at leastF >   two potential OS-level applications for this extra "ring" -- Larry4 >   (LJK) has already cited the major one: security. >  > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------M >     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq>P >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------G >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comw   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:39:36 -0400.8 From: Jim Agnew - VCU/MCV Neurosurgery <jpagnew@vcu.edu>  Subject: Re: VMS to Windows 2000' Message-ID: <3F0EF658.B3298D02@vcu.edu>g   "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote: > + > On 11 Jul 2003 at 16:46, Roy Omond wrote:  > 
 > > KC wrote:s$ > > > The are tons of files involvedK > > > here so I'm trying to get a feel for the issues we might be facing...t > >.D > > I think the best solution for you is to simply keep the existing* > > application running on a VMS platform. > C > Might I suggest that you run CHARON-VAX under Windows 2000.  That F > will allow you to run VMS while meeting the requirement for Windows. > = > [This is a Shameless Plug (tm) from a CHARON-VAX reseller.]a > --Stan Quayleb > Quayle Consulting Inc. >  > ----------E > Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671H3 > 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147e? > Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.coml  C Actually, that's a really good idea...  However, I had no idea that D Charon-vax was up to that level of reliablity/interconnecting/etc...  # Can Charon-vax *cluster* like that?u -- vF "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship of the Ring"  F "I try not to be right any more than necessary". -- Larry Wall, author of the Perl Language   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:19:25 -0400.* From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>  Subject: Re: VMS to Windows 2000. Message-ID: <3F0ED57D.22803.507B10C@localhost>  = On 11 Jul 2003 at 13:39, Jim Agnew - VCU/MCV Neurosurg wrote:pE > Actually, that's a really good idea...  However, I had no idea thatsF > Charon-vax was up to that level of reliablity/interconnecting/etc... > % > Can Charon-vax *cluster* like that?o  B You bet.  I routinely cluster my CHARON-VAX Windows laptop system ' with my VAXen and Alphas.  Works great.-  B CHARON-VAX supports all network protocols:  IP, DECnet, LAT, IEEE B 802, etc.  There are CHARON-VAX installations with upwards of 500 ) simultaneous users coming in over TCP/IP.t      
 --Stan Quayleo Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------C Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671d1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147a= Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:47:26 -0400 8 From: Jim Agnew - VCU/MCV Neurosurgery <jpagnew@vcu.edu>  Subject: Re: VMS to Windows 2000' Message-ID: <3F0F144E.D6E67984@vcu.edu>n   "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote: > ? > On 11 Jul 2003 at 13:39, Jim Agnew - VCU/MCV Neurosurg wrote:tG > > Actually, that's a really good idea...  However, I had no idea that H > > Charon-vax was up to that level of reliablity/interconnecting/etc... > >C' > > Can Charon-vax *cluster* like that?h > C > You bet.  I routinely cluster my CHARON-VAX Windows laptop system ) > with my VAXen and Alphas.  Works great.E > C > CHARON-VAX supports all network protocols:  IP, DECnet, LAT, IEEE C > 802, etc.  There are CHARON-VAX installations with upwards of 500W+ > simultaneous users coming in over TCP/IP.e >  > --Stan Quaylet > Quayle Consulting Inc. >  > ----------E > Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671i3 > 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147n? > Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com,   sweet... --  F "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship of the Ring"  F "I try not to be right any more than necessary". -- Larry Wall, author of the Perl Language   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 14:54:44 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)1  Subject: Re: VMS to Windows 20003 Message-ID: <zZwJmdykvKnS@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3F0ED57D.22803.507B10C@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> writes:g  D > CHARON-VAX supports all network protocols:  IP, DECnet, LAT, IEEE  > 802, etc.u   Appletalk ?.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:44:40 -0400m* From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>  Subject: Re: VMS to Windows 2000. Message-ID: <3F0EF788.24597.58CAAB1@localhost>  / On 11 Jul 2003 at 14:54, Larry Kilgallen wrote:   ] > In article <3F0ED57D.22803.507B10C@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> writes:% > F > > CHARON-VAX supports all network protocols:  IP, DECnet, LAT, IEEE 
 > > 802, etc.r > 
 > Appletalk ?p  D Get me Appletalk client and server software, and I'll give it a try.  
 --Stan Quayleh Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------C Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671t1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 = Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.coma   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 17:01:12 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)   Subject: Re: VMS to Windows 20003 Message-ID: <J4DKExydHmyW@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  [ In article <3F0EF788.24597.58CAAB1@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> writes:e1 > On 11 Jul 2003 at 14:54, Larry Kilgallen wrote:  > ^ >> In article <3F0ED57D.22803.507B10C@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com> writes: >> oG >> > CHARON-VAX supports all network protocols:  IP, DECnet, LAT, IEEE r >> > 802, etc. >>   >> Appletalk ? > F > Get me Appletalk client and server software, and I'll give it a try.  G The client is DCPS.  The driver is part of VMS Pathworks for Macintosh.nE The server is any Appletalk-savvy printer.  (The DCPS description for D the latest field test names a (presumably current) printer supported
 by Appletalk.:   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2003 21:19:37 -0700, From: JimStrehlow@data911.com (Jim Strehlow)  Subject: Re: VMS to Windows 2000< Message-ID: <4b6ec350.0307112019.67252e0@posting.google.com>  [ "KC" <kevin.n.coyle@compaq.com> wrote in message news:<7AAPa.73$E%3.42@news.cpqcorp.net>...eM > I just became involved in converting an existing application that exists ondL > VMS to a brand new application that is running on windows 2000. One of theK > features of the old vms application was that it contained many attachment0L > files (such as .doc, .jpeg, .bin?, .exe???) that the users wish to migrate0 > over to the new application on windows 2000...  , Those may be valid Windows-compatible files.= Some developers and users who liked PATHWORKS created OpenVMS @ directories accessible by Microsoft Windows 98 and Windows 2000.C The developer/user mapped a Microsoft Windows directory to OpenVMS.-  2 So the .doc may well be a Microsoft Word document.% The .jpeg files may well be pictures.d  A To mass move the files off of OpenVMS elsewhere, you might use anuC OpenVMS ZIP utility, file transfer the files to a Microsoft WindowsyA 2000 box using any one of several VT100 OpenVMS emulator softwaree' programs (smartTerm, Reflection, etc.),n( and unzip on your Windows 2000 computer.  & JH Strehlow, Data911, Alameda, CA, USA   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.381 ************************oatloads of money > 	selling 4-way Xeons.  The only thing moving to 4-way Opterons? 	and pushing tk$Q@R@[DpӠ`@n`*/^;hp4oSGGKIu~4o)vߪlտDKk4P3Ln#Hs? /Kob;Hp(i/m#[7h<"έ9,՗4H?~q0NӘbDMgBP VbMx+1nM2ҋ֦J.@sn[!nj@S,zMvPދ] Jפ/>*1^!Moŗ6FbS}t^h׃Kfe@OPhd$C]H^%II^u9yGa썷AqgF6` @O
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