1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 23 Jul 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 404       Contents: Re: A Caching Question! Re: Advanced Server 7.3a Required  Alpha station boot problems  Re: Alpha station boot problems : Re: BasicPlus Uncompiler (Was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates)# Creating an EVE or TPU Section File ' RE: Creating an EVE or TPU Section File ' Re: Creating an EVE or TPU Section File N Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful PerformanceN Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful PerformanceN Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful PerformanceN Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful PerformanceP Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance PP Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance PF Re: Debugging VAX Scan programs on Alpha (was: New OpenVMS-to-Itanium)P DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSIP Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.P Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.P Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.P Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.P Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.P Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.P Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.$ Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?G Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates) G Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates) G Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates)  Re: EMC on VMS Re: EMC on VMS! Finding installed images from DCL % Re: Finding installed images from DCL % Re: Finding installed images from DCL % Re: Finding installed images from DCL % Re: Finding installed images from DCL % Re: Finding installed images from DCL  Re: HP FUDBusting  Re: HP FUDBusting  Re: HP FUDBusting  Re: HP FUDBusting + Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense E Re: IDC reports PC Market Share: Dell over HP by a nose; both pulling P Re: IDC reports PC Market Share: Dell over HP by a nose; both pulling away from P Re: IDC reports PC Market Share: Dell over HP by a nose; both pulling away from , Re: IDC: HP ranks No. 1 in 2002 HPTC revenueP Re: Intel's had Dirty Bombs Anthrax and everything! (Was: Re: HP World: Why Alph" Re: missing multiple blocking ASTs" Re: missing multiple blocking ASTs" Re: missing multiple blocking ASTs# Re: Mozilla... the new NULL process # Re: Mozilla... the new NULL process  Re: New OpenVMS-to-Itanium FAQ6 Re: Non-OpenVMS ethernet access to Printserver 17/600? Re: OpenVms Backup Re: OpenVms Backup Re: OpenVms Backup Re: OpenVms Backup Re: OpenVms Backup Re: OpenVms Backup" RE: Packed decimal arithmetic in C Re: Poor disk IO.  How to fix? Re: Poor disk IO.  How to fix?? Questions regarding OVMS 7.3-1 and Pathworks v6.0 compatibility  Sun Micro Profit, Revenues Fall # Re: Sun Micro Profit, Revenues Fall 
 Sybase client 
 The PDP lives  Re: What are HP Insiders doing?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 01:51:00 -0700# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley)  Subject: Re: A Caching Question = Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0307230051.4a8f1005@posting.google.com>   i "Ingemar Olson" <bio2935c@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Sea2-F13wC6RZT26XOI0000f12d@hotmail.com>... 1 > A colleague has asked me to post this question:  > O > >I wonder if anyone has heard of or used a technique whereby one maintains a  I > >certain minimum use count on data files that one wants kept cached in  L > >memory? The technique involves simply opening and reading a few critical M > >data files and then having this process hibernate. Now everyone else also  O > >begins to use the files in the normal way with caching and reads and writes  J > >as per normal. But when everyone has stopped using the shared files in M > >question and gone home, these files still retain a non-zero use count and  I > >stay cached in memory ready for the next sudden wave of user requests.  >   G > >I have done this on another platform but never yet on OpenVMS. I am  O > >wondering who has done this kind of thing and if it was worthwhile? INSTALL  M > >seems to be out of the question because it is used with executables where  N > >we need a flow through buffering that allows us writes. A RAMdisk seems to J > >be out of the question too because of the requirement for flow through K > >writes. So I am looking to play with the existing caching mechanism. We  N > >need, essentially, to pre-load and maintain in memory some large reference 	 > >files.  >  > Comments anyone?' You need a "file backed global section" % see system services $crmpsc & $mgblsc  Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:40:02 -0400 $ From: "PEN" <paul.nuneznosp@mhp.com>* Subject: Re: Advanced Server 7.3a Required, Message-ID: <bfgqfj$h59$1@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>   Hi,   L I think there's still some confusion here.  The kit referenced in the readme file at:  L http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/public/Readmes/vms/cpq-axpvms-advanced server-v0703-a1-1.README    < is Advanced Server for OpenVMS v7.3A ECO1.   It contains theL images/files/procedures/documents which make up the entire product (not just- a subset of images which have been modified).   K You can "upgrade" directly from Advanced Server for OpenVMS v7.3 (including H eco1 or eco2) or v7.3A to v7.3A ECO1 by simply installing the above kit,E rebooting the system(s),  and then running $ @SYS$UPDATE:PWRK$CONFIG.   L In fact you can upgrade directly from PATHWORKS for OpenVMS v6.0C (or later)K to v7.3A ECO1 on Alpha systems (just be sure the Registry is configured and  running first).   J The biggest caveat with Advanced Server v7.3A ECO1 is the OpenVMS version.L It's only qualified on OpenVMS Alpha v7.2-2, v7.3, v7.3-1  (notice v7.2-1 is not listed).   HTH,   Paul   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:23:19 -0400 / From: "Hank Vander Waal" <hvanderw@mansply.com> $ Subject: Alpha station boot problems? Message-ID: <MDEGJFAOHGLNLHONIEBMGEDJCOAA.hvanderw@mansply.com>   H I have an Alpha station that was part of a cluster - doing a remote bootI from the other system ...  I did not get that system :(  when this system I starts up it tries to do a network boot and fails and keeps re-trying.  I C can not control c or y out of it to change the boot to local drive.   0 Anyone have any ideas on how I can reset this ??   TIA    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:57:57 +0200 + From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl> ( Subject: Re: Alpha station boot problems9 Message-ID: <bfmib5$gh1mu$1@ID-143435.news.uni-berlin.de>   J Does it have a button on the front, labeled with a sign that looks like anL underscore with a curved arrow that points to the left beneath it? Or a push button on the back?   < "Hank Vander Waal" <hvanderw@mansply.com> schreef in bericht9 news:MDEGJFAOHGLNLHONIEBMGEDJCOAA.hvanderw@mansply.com... J > I have an Alpha station that was part of a cluster - doing a remote bootK > from the other system ...  I did not get that system :(  when this system K > starts up it tries to do a network boot and fails and keeps re-trying.  I E > can not control c or y out of it to change the boot to local drive.  > 2 > Anyone have any ideas on how I can reset this ?? >  > TIA  >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:27:13 -0600  From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> C Subject: Re: BasicPlus Uncompiler (Was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates) & Message-ID: <3F1EB761.2000807@srv.net>   Jerome H. Fine wrote:  > D > I used RSTS/E many, many years ago - probably around 1975 to 1979.> > There was a COMPILE command which saved the source file as aE > *.BAC file as opposed to the normal *.BAS file.  When saved in that F > form, there was a definite advantage, but I can't remember what that+ > advantage was.  Can anyone else remember?   = Speed mostly, but some small memory size help too. The system > didn't need to spend time parsing the source every time it was= run, and didn't need to allocate room for the source. It also % hid the source code from prying eyes.   A > However, whenever I did what was usually done with a *.BAS file H > (to look at the source) to a *.BAC file, the source code also appeared* > automatically.  Can anyone confirm this?  9 The BAC files are a "push-pop" compilation of the source. ; Not readable to mere humans. The original code is converted : into an RPN (reverse polish) format somewhat akin to java.. The opcodes used were not native PDP-11 codes.  A > Also, what am I remembering when I relate this?  The *.BAC file 6 > doesn't sound like a truly compiled and linked form!  @ It isn't compiled down to machine language (you need basic+2 for; that, and even then it's not much different from push-pop). 7 You could probably write a run-time for other machines, : but you would need to also write code to handle the PDP-11 floating point formats.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 06:23:40 -0700' From: hari@transcomm.uk.com (HariHaran) , Subject: Creating an EVE or TPU Section File= Message-ID: <2de080f3.0307230523.1b6b992b@posting.google.com>   D It's so long since I last had to do this that I've forgotten how, so? please can some kind soul remind me how to create an EVE or TPU  Section file.  Hari    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:29:19 +0100 7 From: "POWERS, John" <John.POWERS@reading.sema.slb.com> 0 Subject: RE: Creating an EVE or TPU Section FileH Message-ID: <95544AF90752D211AC0300A0C9E01D32019FFA1A@reaes4.sema.co.uk>   The command is  & EDIT /TPU/NODISPLAY/NOINITIALIZATION -$      /COMMAND=SYS$EXAMPLES:EVE$BUILD  I It's all described nicely in the explanatory comments at the beginning of D SYS$EXAMPLES:EVE$BUILD.TPU - a great read. Everything you need to do" to prepare your code for building.  	 Have fun!    John   John Powers  SchlumbergerSema Messaging Solutions.   -----Original Message-----: From: hari@transcomm.uk.com [mailto:hari@transcomm.uk.com] Sent: 23 July 2003 14:24 To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com , Subject: Creating an EVE or TPU Section File    D It's so long since I last had to do this that I've forgotten how, so? please can some kind soul remind me how to create an EVE or TPU  Section file.  Hari    ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jul 2003 13:26:49 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) 0 Subject: Re: Creating an EVE or TPU Section File0 Message-ID: <bfm2ep$9up$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  g In article <2de080f3.0307230523.1b6b992b@posting.google.com>, hari@transcomm.uk.com (HariHaran) writes: E >It's so long since I last had to do this that I've forgotten how, so @ >please can some kind soul remind me how to create an EVE or TPU >Section file.  Hari  I Open an editor session, do all the modifications to the environment, then ( press F16 and enter "SAVE EXTENDED TPU".   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann    --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452   ImmunbiologieA  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de   D-79011  Freiburg, Germany 9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:52:21 GMT * From: "Mark Buda" <buda_NO@SPAM.yahoo.com>W Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance < Message-ID: <FNtTa.36386$8g6.500029@news1.news.adelphia.net>  K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> ; wrote in message news:bfj0ir$cr6$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...   L One could always use non-industry standard proprietary SPARC based hardware,J rather than industry standard (Yes Virginia, I mean Andrew, INTEL sets the standard) CPU's.   :-)    mark   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:01:52 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>W Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance 8 Message-ID: <ta4thvcotv7hmi6i7ire682vqr39t5mt63@4ax.com>  H On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:01:15 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:    K >While the idiots who killed EV8 don't seem to have had the wits to see the I >answer to that question before doing so, said answer is no longer in any M >doubt.  The fall in combined VMS and Tru64 system profit after the Alphacide F >was announced was far greater than the stated cost of continued AlphaF >development, so from a fiscal point of view EV8 would have been worth2 >'pursuing' even if it had never actually shipped. >   J While I agree that the fall in systems after the announcement hurt things,J I don't know if that was planned-for or not - and I sincerely doubt you doK either.  It's entirely possible that it was worse than originally expected, & but that's water under the bridge now.  K But there are no real numbers that you'd be able to find that would "prove" D this would have made EV8 worth pursuing.  There are many, many costsG over-and-above what you may see in the Annual Report.  Groups like ESG, K Tru64, OpenVMS, NSK, Customer Support, compilers, layered-products etc. are K just some examples.  And you've got to factor in the projected revenues and - margins, possible price-points, volumes, etc.   F It is just far, far too complex for anyone on the outside to determineC based on such little information available.  At least, not with any  real-world accuracy.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:11:38 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>W Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance 8 Message-ID: <uc5thvs11ui8g0m0cvlb906e3rt7gua1mq@4ax.com>  E On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 16:05:07 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy . <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:  
 >jlsue wrote: H >> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:15:56 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy1 >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:    >>> E >>>Umm right so how much has your employer sunk into Itanium over the  >>>last 13 or so years ??????? >>   >>  F >> Non sequitor.  Still doesn't answer whether the EV8 would have been5 >> profitable enough to make it worthwhile to pursue.  >>   > < >Well think about it the other way. Itanium given the amount< >it has cost so far is unlikely to turn a profit in the next> >5 years, despite this your employer and Intel show no sign of# >dropping consigning it to the bin.   J This is entirely conjecture on your part.  There are many places where theI profit could come from, and system sales margins are just one part of our  business affected.   > = >Historically HP has never made money on PC's or UNIX servers = >nor is there any sign that they ever will, PC and Enterprise ? >profitability has only improved because of accounting changes, : >but HP show no sign of dumping their PC business or their >UNIX business.  > 2 >IBM don't make money on PC's and don't expect to.  C While I can agree that PCs (desktop variety) don't seem to make any D margins, this is not particularly true of the higher-end Intel-basedH servers.  And I don't see how you can make this statement about the UNIX1 servers either.  Where do you get this info from?    > 4 >Companies remain in markets that are not profitable5 >for them for a host of reasons. IBM for example want 4 >to have a full portfolio of products including PC's1 >hoping to leverage profitable services, UNIX and  >mainframe business.  " Sure, I have no problem with that.   > 3 >I don't know if EV8 would have been profitable for 0 >Compaq but it itsn't the only measure if it was4 >HP would only be a printer company if business unit >profitability was the measure.   D It still needs to drive enough business to make it worthwhile.  WithB shrinking market share, they may have just decided it wasn't worth& pursuing.  Water under the bridge now.   >  >>  @ >>>Estimates for HP and Intels joint spend on the project so farA >>>put Itanium at 5 billion dollars and climbing, this is 10x the 0 >>>cost of any other new ISA and implimentation. >>   >>  @ >> Oh heck, you're comparing new startup of a new CPU vs ongoingH >> implementations.  That's always going to be a non-starter.  Heck, theI >> original Alpha design & implementation was a huge, huge investment for 5 >> Digital (the FAB-7 plant alone was a few billion).  >>   > = >No sorry, Intel allready has the FAB's they are used to make  >x86 processors. > @ >500 million is a rough ballpark for a new ISA, 5 billion is 10x& >that and the FAB costs arn't in that.  H No, sorry.  If they need to design new proceses and FABs to make the ISAB competitive, then it is a significant part of the overall cost.  IJ personally don't follow closely enough enough to know for sure, but I'd beF surprised if their processes (in the current FABs) didn't require some changes to make IA64 viable.   > B >Current Itanium production doesn't warrant a dedicated FAB anyway1 >4000 units a quarter is a small corner of a FAB.   J And it's just getting started. Compared to Alpha, what is it, EV2?  EV2.5?   >  > D >> I don't think you're comparing apples-to-apples in that scenario. >>   > @ >Humm and you finished off your points by introducing FAB costs. >  >Alpha is FABless.  I No, it's not FABless.  It requires investments in new FAB processes - and I sometimes facilities - to get obtain the benefits of the new features and F performance out of the new designs.  While Cpq/hpq no longer owned theH FABs, they had less control over what the FABs would do to make the chipK work.  If the new design required significant investment in FAB technology, I do you think the FAB companies would just do that for free?  Somebody has  to fund it.   H And if the projected volume wouldn't be that great, the FAB owners would7 tend to make us shoulder more of that burden initially.    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:10:28 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.ukW Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance + Message-ID: <bfmc1k$a8s$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   a In article <uc5thvs11ui8g0m0cvlb906e3rt7gua1mq@4ax.com>, jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> writes: F >On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 16:05:07 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy/ ><Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:  >  >>jlsue wrote:I >>> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:15:56 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 2 >>> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: > C >>Current Itanium production doesn't warrant a dedicated FAB anyway 2 >>4000 units a quarter is a small corner of a FAB. > K >And it's just getting started. Compared to Alpha, what is it, EV2?  EV2.5?  >   B As I recall the EV4 shipped in the first generation Alpha Systems.: The previous EV3 or earlier were just internal test chips.  > Hence IA64 is at least in the same generation position as EV5.M However I'd say there were a lot more production EV5 systems sold than there  M are production IA64 systems (even if you include ALL the IA64 generations in   the IA64 total).   
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   >> >>E >>> I don't think you're comparing apples-to-apples in that scenario.  >>>    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:59:36 +0100 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> Y Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance P 0 Message-ID: <bfm7ta$gqn$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   jlsue wrote:G > On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 16:05:07 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 0 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: >  >  >>jlsue wrote: >>H >>>On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:15:56 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy1 >>><Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:  >> > F >>>>Umm right so how much has your employer sunk into Itanium over the >>>>last 13 or so years ???????  >>>  >>> F >>>Non sequitor.  Still doesn't answer whether the EV8 would have been5 >>>profitable enough to make it worthwhile to pursue.  >>>  >>= >>Well think about it the other way. Itanium given the amount = >>it has cost so far is unlikely to turn a profit in the next ? >>5 years, despite this your employer and Intel show no sign of $ >>dropping consigning it to the bin. >  > L > This is entirely conjecture on your part.  There are many places where theK > profit could come from, and system sales margins are just one part of our  > business affected. >    What margins on Systems Sales ?   5 HP don't make a profit on systems sales currently and 8 historically they havn't either. Thats one of the things( that people were expecting Carly to fix.  6 The only conjecture here is that you make a margin out of systems sales, you don't.  7 The fix du jour is to take R&D costs out of systems P&L 8 and stick them into a central R&D budget, this is simple8 a re-presentation of the existing situation not a change to it.  8 If like Fred you work in R&D at HP be nice to the people8 from the printing division who design the pots that hold7 the toner, it may not seem like a terribly exciting job  but it pays Fred wages.    > > >>Historically HP has never made money on PC's or UNIX servers> >>nor is there any sign that they ever will, PC and Enterprise@ >>profitability has only improved because of accounting changes,; >>but HP show no sign of dumping their PC business or their  >>UNIX business. >>3 >>IBM don't make money on PC's and don't expect to.  >  > E > While I can agree that PCs (desktop variety) don't seem to make any F > margins, this is not particularly true of the higher-end Intel-basedJ > servers.  And I don't see how you can make this statement about the UNIX3 > servers either.  Where do you get this info from?  >   6 I can make the statement because its in HP's accounts.8 Hadn't you noticed that the Enterprise Stystems business8 isn't profitable, this isn't a little current difficulty, its one of the reasons Carly was brought in.   > 5 >>Companies remain in markets that are not profitable 6 >>for them for a host of reasons. IBM for example want5 >>to have a full portfolio of products including PC's 2 >>hoping to leverage profitable services, UNIX and >>mainframe business.  >  > $ > Sure, I have no problem with that. >  > 4 >>I don't know if EV8 would have been profitable for1 >>Compaq but it itsn't the only measure if it was 5 >>HP would only be a printer company if business unit   >>profitability was the measure. >  > F > It still needs to drive enough business to make it worthwhile.  WithD > shrinking market share, they may have just decided it wasn't worth( > pursuing.  Water under the bridge now. >  > A >>>>Estimates for HP and Intels joint spend on the project so far B >>>>put Itanium at 5 billion dollars and climbing, this is 10x the1 >>>>cost of any other new ISA and implimentation.  >>>  >>> @ >>>Oh heck, you're comparing new startup of a new CPU vs ongoingH >>>implementations.  That's always going to be a non-starter.  Heck, theI >>>original Alpha design & implementation was a huge, huge investment for 5 >>>Digital (the FAB-7 plant alone was a few billion).  >>>  >>> >>No sorry, Intel allready has the FAB's they are used to make >>x86 processors.  >>A >>500 million is a rough ballpark for a new ISA, 5 billion is 10x ' >>that and the FAB costs arn't in that.  >  > J > No, sorry.  If they need to design new proceses and FABs to make the ISAD > competitive, then it is a significant part of the overall cost.  IL > personally don't follow closely enough enough to know for sure, but I'd beH > surprised if their processes (in the current FABs) didn't require some > changes to make IA64 viable. >   = But Intel didn't need to design a new FAB to produce Itaniums > in fact the Xeons are produced in a newer FAB than Itanium is.   > C >>Current Itanium production doesn't warrant a dedicated FAB anyway 2 >>4000 units a quarter is a small corner of a FAB. >  > L > And it's just getting started. Compared to Alpha, what is it, EV2?  EV2.5? >   E Alpha was never that unsucessfull, less than 2000 systems per quarter C after 2 years, even Alpha at its worst was rather better than that.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:51:01 +0100 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> Y Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance P 0 Message-ID: <bfmatn$hlg$4@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:1 > Buy a clue.  We'll all chip in a couple Euro's.  > M > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> = > wrote in message news:bfj0ir$cr6$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...  >  >     0 Is that Fred the MBA or Fred the person who just lost another argument.  1 When will you learn Fred ? You role in this group 2 is to make me look good, you seem to be doing this for Bill as well keep it up.   Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 09:45:55 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) O Subject: Re: Debugging VAX Scan programs on Alpha (was: New OpenVMS-to-Itanium) 3 Message-ID: <Cdl5$3pX3EnQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   o In article <e37e9772.0307230605.40a4b06b@posting.google.com>, p.l.vermeulen@hccnet.nl (Peter Vermeulen) writes:   G > The port of the VAX Scan compile to Alpha (AlphaScan) that is done by G > SRI is a very successful one. We have used the compiler for some time D > now on our Alpha systems and the applications run very well on theA > Alpha. There is also debugger support on the Alpha with limited > > functionality on examining local variables but not on globalH > variables. In the (standard) OpenVMS debugger normal display of source/ > code and stepping functionality is available. H > With that I don't know what you mean by "the undebuggable Alpha", this > is not the experience I have.   E You must have some very simple Scan programs if you have never needed C to set breakpoints on Event types using the debugger on VAX.  Debug D support is the major feature that set VAX Scan apart from Snobol and, similar languages, as far as I am concerned.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:05:27 -0500 (CDT)  From: sms@antinode.orgY Subject: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSI ) Message-ID: <03072310052714@antinode.org>   E    And then, after the magic update has been installed, attempting to D install the CDRECORD patch offers the following unattractive choice:   --------   ALP $ prod inst VMS731_CDRECORD   ( The following product has been selected:E     DEC AXPVMS VMS731_CDRECORD V1.0        Patch (maintenance update)    Do you want to continue? [YES]  B Information has been saved to allow you to uninstall the following patches:  5 RECOVERY DATA SET 001 created 22-JUL-2003 22:31:16.30 P    -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------4    PATCH                                  APPLIED TOP    -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------?    DEC AXPVMS VMS731_UPDATE V1.0          DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.3-1 P    -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------  N * If you continue, recovery data for the patches listed above will be deleted.J * The deletion of recovery data does not affect the installation status ofK * patches applied to products that are not participating in this operation. H * However, continuing with this operation prevents you from uninstallingJ * these patches at a future time by use of the PRODUCT UNDO PATCH command.   Do you want to continue? [NO]    --------  H    That new PRODUCT UNDO PATCH command sounds nice, but how useful is it- if every stray patch wipes the recovery data?   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode,org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:49:19 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.comY Subject: Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4. ? Message-ID: <OFFEE09B9D.7039F3EE-ON85256D6C.005BEE39@metso.com>   @ I have opened a case with the CSC about this and other questions surrounding the changed B behavior of PCSI.  My first concern was that when the logical name NO_ASK$BACKUP is) defined:  $ DEFINE/SYS NO_ASK$BACKUP TRUE 
 the question:   / Do you wish to save this recovery data [YES] ?:   D is still asked from a command procedure to do the ECO install, which defeats the purpose of defining that logical name.   D The other questions were prompted by the behavior shown here, below.  ) I do not expect an answer for some while.     . From:  sms@antinode.org on 07/23/2003 11:05 AM  " Please respond to sms@antinode.org   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:   7 Subject:    DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. +        DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSI     E    And then, after the magic update has been installed, attempting to D install the CDRECORD patch offers the following unattractive choice:   --------   ALP $ prod inst VMS731_CDRECORD   ( The following product has been selected:E     DEC AXPVMS VMS731_CDRECORD V1.0        Patch (maintenance update)    Do you want to continue? [YES]  B Information has been saved to allow you to uninstall the following patches:  5 RECOVERY DATA SET 001 created 22-JUL-2003 22:31:16.30 )    -------------------------------------- & --------------------------------------4    PATCH                                  APPLIED TO)    -------------------------------------- & --------------------------------------?    DEC AXPVMS VMS731_UPDATE V1.0          DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.3-1 )    -------------------------------------- & --------------------------------------  E * If you continue, recovery data for the patches listed above will be  deleted.J * The deletion of recovery data does not affect the installation status ofK * patches applied to products that are not participating in this operation. H * However, continuing with this operation prevents you from uninstallingJ * these patches at a future time by use of the PRODUCT UNDO PATCH command.   Do you want to continue? [NO]    --------  H    That new PRODUCT UNDO PATCH command sounds nice, but how useful is it- if every stray patch wipes the recovery data?   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode,org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:54:49 GMT 3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) Y Subject: Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4. 0 Message-ID: <t5zTa.728$Va3.239@news.cpqcorp.net>  B In article <03072310052714@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org writes:F >   And then, after the magic update has been installed, attempting toE >install the CDRECORD patch offers the following unattractive choice:  > 	 >--------  >   >ALP $ prod inst VMS731_CDRECORD > ) >The following product has been selected: F >    DEC AXPVMS VMS731_CDRECORD V1.0        Patch (maintenance update) >  >Do you want to continue? [YES]  > C >Information has been saved to allow you to uninstall the following 	 >patches:  > 6 >RECOVERY DATA SET 001 created 22-JUL-2003 22:31:16.30Q >   -------------------------------------- -------------------------------------- 5 >   PATCH                                  APPLIED TO Q >   -------------------------------------- -------------------------------------- @ >   DEC AXPVMS VMS731_UPDATE V1.0          DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.3-1Q >   -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------  > O >* If you continue, recovery data for the patches listed above will be deleted. K >* The deletion of recovery data does not affect the installation status of L >* patches applied to products that are not participating in this operation.I >* However, continuing with this operation prevents you from uninstalling K >* these patches at a future time by use of the PRODUCT UNDO PATCH command.u >0 >Do you want to continue? [NO] >u	 >--------  >aI >   That new PRODUCT UNDO PATCH command sounds nice, but how useful is it . >if every stray patch wipes the recovery data?  J Recovery data is ONLY deleted if you do a PRODUCT operation that modifies K the PCSI database and you do not specify the /SAVE_RECOVERY_DATA qualifier..   Use the commandS  %     $ prod inst VMS731_CDRECORD /SAVEP  J and you will have TWO recovery data sets.  A subsequent PRODUCT UNDO PATCHC will be able to undo just VMS731_CDRECORD, or it and VMS731_UPDATE.n  C Patches must be undone in reverse order, without skipping anything,e@ and there must be NO intervening INSTALL, REGISTER, REMOVE, etc.D operations.  So if you were to install some other product, you would! have to delete the recovery data.   D How useful is it?  You decide.  I think most people will agree that 8 having an UNDO operation is better than not having it.    @ Yes, it does have limitations, which are the result of practical: considerations about what could be implemented reasonably.  : It is my understanding that this will be explained in the  OpenVMS V7.3-2 documentation.X   -- SJ       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:14:12 GMTI( From: David Harrold <DHarrold@wi.rr.com>Y Subject: Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.e@ Message-ID: <82b6461d6249a72f23f9bdc7aae4d468@free.teranews.com>  A On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:05:27 -0500 (CDT), sms@antinode.org wrote:e  F >   And then, after the magic update has been installed, attempting toE >install the CDRECORD patch offers the following unattractive choice:  > 	 >--------n >n  >ALP $ prod inst VMS731_CDRECORD > ) >The following product has been selected:tF >    DEC AXPVMS VMS731_CDRECORD V1.0        Patch (maintenance update) >  >Do you want to continue? [YES]P >DC >Information has been saved to allow you to uninstall the following 	 >patches:d >h6 >RECOVERY DATA SET 001 created 22-JUL-2003 22:31:16.30Q >   -------------------------------------- -------------------------------------- 5 >   PATCH                                  APPLIED TOoQ >   -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------a@ >   DEC AXPVMS VMS731_UPDATE V1.0          DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.3-1Q >   -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------  > O >* If you continue, recovery data for the patches listed above will be deleted..K >* The deletion of recovery data does not affect the installation status of-L >* patches applied to products that are not participating in this operation.I >* However, continuing with this operation prevents you from uninstallingeK >* these patches at a future time by use of the PRODUCT UNDO PATCH command.  >r >Do you want to continue? [NO] >s	 >--------t  N You need to specify the /SAVE_RECOVERY_DATA on the install command as noted in the PCSI V1.0 Release notes.  1 $ PROD INSTAL VMS731_CDRECORD/SAVE_RECOVERY_DATA.   N Note:  I haven't tried the CDRECORD ECO yet, but I noticed the same thing withK the LAN V6.0 and RMS V4.0 ECOs.  I got the same message as above and when ImL added the /SAVE_RECOVERY_DATA qualifier to the INSTALL command, it worked asK expected and I have recovery sets for all 3 ECOs (UPDATE V1.0, LAN V6.0 and9
 RMS V4.0).   Dave Harrold    N ..............................................................................N David Harrold                              E-Mail: David_Harrold at aurora.orgI Sr. Software Systems Engineer              Phone:          (414) 647-6204tI                                            Pager:          (414) 941-4634eG Aurora Health Care                         Fax:          (414) 647-4999e 3031 W. Montana Street Milwaukee, WI 53215g   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:12:05 +0200 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>Y Subject: Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4. 9 Message-ID: <bfmgjj$g7bth$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>r  , On 23-Jul-2003 18:54, Charlie Hammond wrote:  L > Recovery data is ONLY deleted if you do a PRODUCT operation that modifies M > the PCSI database and you do not specify the /SAVE_RECOVERY_DATA qualifier.s >  > Use the commandu > ' >     $ prod inst VMS731_CDRECORD /SAVEe > L > and you will have TWO recovery data sets.  A subsequent PRODUCT UNDO PATCHE > will be able to undo just VMS731_CDRECORD, or it and VMS731_UPDATE.h >  > [...]i  2 Is "/SAVE" the default behaviour? If not, why not?   Michael    --    @ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.e= And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:47:33 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.comY Subject: Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.h? Message-ID: <OFE92C1418.1AD8BBD6-ON85256D6C.0061B2B7@metso.com>   I ..and why does not the sample command in the README.TXT file not have thee /SAVE qualifier?  < From:  Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> on 07/23/2003 01:12 PM  0 Please respond to Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:c  ; Subject:    Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v.h+        DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSIi    , On 23-Jul-2003 18:54, Charlie Hammond wrote:  K > Recovery data is ONLY deleted if you do a PRODUCT operation that modifies,  B > the PCSI database and you do not specify the /SAVE_RECOVERY_DATA
 qualifier. >o > Use the commandt >f' >     $ prod inst VMS731_CDRECORD /SAVE) >oF > and you will have TWO recovery data sets.  A subsequent PRODUCT UNDO PATCHnE > will be able to undo just VMS731_CDRECORD, or it and VMS731_UPDATE.h >p > [...]s  2 Is "/SAVE" the default behaviour? If not, why not?   Michael(   --  @ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.r= And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)b   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:35:18 +0300 " From: Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com>Y Subject: Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4. & Message-ID: <3F1E3AB6.B3DF5272@hp.com>  8 I have forwarded your mail to the person responsible for creating/distributingo	 the kits.n  	 Guy Pelego OpenVMS Engineeringo   sms@antinode.org wrote:c  C >    Not a big deal, but it appears that someone's been cutting and,B > pasting without reading carefully.  (Too much automation, or notI > enough?)  When I tried to install the new CDRECORD patch without having$9 > VMS731_UPDATE-V0100 installed first, the complaint was:n >e
 > -------- > 9 > The following product will be installed to destination:rI >     DEC AXPVMS VMS731_CDRECORD V1.0        DISK$VMS073ALP:[VMS$COMMON.]H > # > *** KIT WILL NOT BE INSTALLED ***c >e. >                         vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvA > In order to install the VMS731_CPU2608-V0100 kit, you must havef. >                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^@ > the VMS731_UPDATE-V0100 and  VMS731_PCSI-V0100 (or later) kits3 > installed.  Installed kits can be verified with a  > PROD SHO HISTORY command.o >o
 > -------- >tH >    I know better than to waste my time installing VMS731_CPU2608-V0100I > for my AlphaStation 200 4/233, but it was a bit startling to be accused- > of doing so. >,E >    How much more would it cost to spell out "PRODUCT SHOW HISTORY"?: >:J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >.6 >    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98185 >    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode,org1 >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:56:02 -0400. From: norm.raphael@metso.comY Subject: Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v. DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4. ? Message-ID: <OF612A5D4C.C528FE27-ON85256D6C.004A991B@metso.com>    [start of mild rant]  J I have been engaged in an ongoing discussion around the issue of requiring UPDATE patches thate' (1) overpatch previously applied ECO's,oH (2) include patches (like VMSxxx_CPU2608) which, while doing no harm, do! not apply to the hardware in use,kA (3) include level 2 or 3 patches that the system manager may haveu# reasonably omitted in any case, and? (4) require a reboot.   J There seems to be no practical way for the UPDATE to check, determine that all required (level 1) ECO'sI contained therein have been applied, and simply mark the PCSI database so  subsequent ECO's will not J fail, then report no reboot needed.  Additionally, once UPDATE actually is applied, all future ECO's nownJ can depend on all superseded ECO's being in place, even if not level 1, so they can require UPDATE andt* not UPDATE and/or some other ECO or ECO's.  E There seems to be no practical way for any patches released after thet UPDATE patch to see if either G UPDATE or the patch(es) incorporated in it has(have) been installed, soe that ECO can proceed, despiter  the absence of the UPDATE patch.  K All this requires that even though all the ECO's incorporated in the UPDATE3 patch have been appliedgJ separately, the UPDATE patch must needs be applied and the system rebooted in order to go forward with later required patches.  G This rankles, although it is not the end of the world, because it means  double work and an unnecessary2 reboot just to simplify future ECO considerations.   [end of mild rant]  I Having typos (or release notes with RUNOFF error messages not removed) isA justH a consequence of trying to get things out and right as soon as possible, but itK sure would be nice (and less costly) if the extra minutes were expended....n    : From:  Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com> on 07/23/2003 03:35 AM  . Please respond to Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com>   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:.  ; Subject:    Re: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_CDRECORD-V0100--4.PCSI v.g+        DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSI +        DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSIs+        DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSIn    8 I have forwarded your mail to the person responsible for creating/distributings	 the kits.   	 Guy Pelegs OpenVMS Engineeringh   sms@antinode.org wrote:d  C >    Not a big deal, but it appears that someone's been cutting and-B > pasting without reading carefully.  (Too much automation, or notI > enough?)  When I tried to install the new CDRECORD patch without havingE9 > VMS731_UPDATE-V0100 installed first, the complaint was:- >i
 > -------- >a9 > The following product will be installed to destination:aI >     DEC AXPVMS VMS731_CDRECORD V1.0        DISK$VMS073ALP:[VMS$COMMON.]  >t# > *** KIT WILL NOT BE INSTALLED ***e > . >                         vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvA > In order to install the VMS731_CPU2608-V0100 kit, you must havee. >                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^@ > the VMS731_UPDATE-V0100 and  VMS731_PCSI-V0100 (or later) kits3 > installed.  Installed kits can be verified with a: > PROD SHO HISTORY command.  >I
 > -------- >PH >    I know better than to waste my time installing VMS731_CPU2608-V0100I > for my AlphaStation 200 4/233, but it was a bit startling to be accusedh > of doing so. >-E >    How much more would it cost to spell out "PRODUCT SHOW HISTORY"?  >aJ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >n6 >    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98185 >    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode,orga >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547_   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:30:41 +0800e, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>- Subject: Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?w- Message-ID: <874r1djx9a.fsf@prep.synonet.com>i  = "John Gemignani, Jr." <jon-nope@thiswontworkossc.net> writes:k  F > I played quite a bit with some of this, as the 780 was a very simple? > machine to work with.  Comrades got 11M running the kernel by:F > putting the machine into compatibility mode after loading the system > image.  C Are you sure you are not thinking of `ZIGLET' on the 750s? It could5 boot un modified 11M or M-PLUS.r   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.b@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:53:37 GMTv* From: don@news.daedalus.co.nz (Don Stokes)P Subject: Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates)3 Message-ID: <5arTa.6759$9f7.783529@news02.tsnz.net>   7 In article <62789131a4960a272be481f908c0246d@TeraNews>,i, Michael Ross  <abaddon@attglobal.net> wrote:F >On 22 Jul 2003 14:26:32 -0500, kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob >Kaplow) wrote:  >hJ >>[Each PDP-11 OS had a unique blinken lights pattern on the 11/70. I long# >>since forgot what they all were.]  >oF >IIRC, one had a 'snake chasing its tail' pattern - several LEDs wouldE >light in sequence, starting on the left, running across to the rightc5 >and disappearing, then starting on the left again...r >-	 >?RSTS???u  ? Yep.  And on machines with supervisor mode (until recently whensG supervisor mode got used for real work), they did something clever withnE the addressing so that the same pattern, in reverse, appeared on the  H address lines.  It looked like the snakes were chasing each other aroundG and around the two rows of lights.  It looked bloody good in a darkenedw room full of 11/70s...   - donu   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:39:46 +0200+A From: Christian Corti <Christian.Corti@studserv.uni-stuttgart.de>sP Subject: Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates)* Message-ID: <ikhlfb.4u3.ln@news.online.de>  + Don Stokes <don@news.daedalus.co.nz> wrote: A > Yep.  And on machines with supervisor mode (until recently whenhI > supervisor mode got used for real work), they did something clever withsG > the addressing so that the same pattern, in reverse, appeared on the iJ > address lines.  It looked like the snakes were chasing each other aroundI > and around the two rows of lights.  It looked bloody good in a darkenedh > room full of 11/70s...  
 With what OS?rF And what about 11/45s? At least mine shows a nice pattern with RSX11M.H RT11 shows nothing interesting at all, neither does any version of UNIX.  	 Christianm   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jul 2003 08:34:22 GMT( From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr)P Subject: Re: Does RT-11 run on the PDP-11/70?  (was Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates)= Message-ID: <slrnbhsh4u.hnp.stanb45@citadel.metropolis.local>o  M On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 03:12:25 GMT, Michael Ross <abaddon@attglobal.net> wrote:rF >On 22 Jul 2003 14:26:32 -0500, kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob >Kaplow) wrote:  >eJ >>[Each PDP-11 OS had a unique blinken lights pattern on the 11/70. I long# >>since forgot what they all were.]t >bF >IIRC, one had a 'snake chasing its tail' pattern - several LEDs wouldE >light in sequence, starting on the left, running across to the righta5 >and disappearing, then starting on the left again...e >o	 >?RSTS???   = Yep.  The blinkenlites on my 486 "fake" PDP-11 (E11) do that.u -- n Cheers,C3 Stan Barr     stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com 7 (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.)a   The future was never like this!d   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 06:51:56 -0700% From: Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn)p Subject: Re: EMC on VMSo= Message-ID: <a98cd882.0307230551.76245540@posting.google.com>b  v keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) wrote in message news:<cf15391e.0306261251.3c5fbb89@posting.google.com>...h > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<7AwT9yEDoxfJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>...; > > The Symmetrix has its own substitute for READL, WRITEL.  > G > Then why not support SCSI READL/WRITEL, even if it really is emulatedoH > internally using their own substitute mechanism?  How hard could it beC > technically to just make it do the right thing for these two SCSI H > commands?  READL/WRITEL are part of the SCSI standard.  Not supportingB > them makes our VMS customers doubt EMC's depth of committment to > support for the VMS platform.e  B I agree. If I create a HBVS from two EMC volumes, it seems to workB perfectly (and, for that matter, about three times faster than theD same two volumes in a SRDF configuration!). But I cannot really relyD on that HBVS configuration simply because nobody can exactly predictB (well, maybe you can, Keith!) what will happen in a situation thatD HBVS wants to use READL or WRITEL. Most likely the volume set memberC will be dropped from the set. In the end, you could wind up with anp
 empty set!  F Generally you use HBVS because you want the best RAS features. You getF those using components which are fully supported by HP. If that is notA possible, for instance because the management of your company haspE decided that you have to use EMC, than you would want to use at leastyB something that complies to the specifications that are required by, HBVS. Unfortunately, EMC is not among those.  D I may be able to arrange for a test with volumes from a Hitachi Data# Systems array. I will let you know.a   Regards,  	 Bart Zorns   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 10:34:25 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)k Subject: Re: EMC on VMSi3 Message-ID: <DbRWP4Fq3P7e@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  e In article <a98cd882.0307230551.76245540@posting.google.com>, Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn) writes:dx > keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) wrote in message news:<cf15391e.0306261251.3c5fbb89@posting.google.com>...i >> young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<7AwT9yEDoxfJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>...j< >> > The Symmetrix has its own substitute for READL, WRITEL. >> rH >> Then why not support SCSI READL/WRITEL, even if it really is emulatedI >> internally using their own substitute mechanism?  How hard could it belD >> technically to just make it do the right thing for these two SCSII >> commands?  READL/WRITEL are part of the SCSI standard.  Not supportinglC >> them makes our VMS customers doubt EMC's depth of committment toU  >> support for the VMS platform. > D > I agree. If I create a HBVS from two EMC volumes, it seems to workD > perfectly (and, for that matter, about three times faster than theF > same two volumes in a SRDF configuration!). But I cannot really relyF > on that HBVS configuration simply because nobody can exactly predictD > (well, maybe you can, Keith!) what will happen in a situation thatF > HBVS wants to use READL or WRITEL. Most likely the volume set memberE > will be dropped from the set. In the end, you could wind up with ane > empty set! >   > 	Okay.  How about example?  In nearly 2 years of HBVS and EMC 9 	Symmetrix, no bad blocks.  Am I shocked, surprised?  No.   @ 	After all, if the Sym never has bad blocks (1), the Zen of the > 	situation is HBVS doesn't ever have to perform shadowing dataG 	repair, READL/WRITEL never come into play.  EMC isn't violating a SCSI03 	protocol, READL/WRITEL are optional SCSI commands:o   http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:FVuzIrrdRcMJ:kuhub.cc.ku.edu/www/html/721final/5423/5423pro_010.html+shadowing+readl+writel&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8  F Shadowing also provides full support for all SCSI devices and for someN third-party SCSI devices. Volume Shadowing for OpenVMS can support third-partyI devices that implement READL (read long) and WRITEL (write long) commands K because phase II shadowing software uses the optional SCSI READL and WRITEL 
 commands.  	mA 	As Glenn Everhart has pointed out in the past, folks do a subset> 	of SCSI anyhow:  W http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=36954A48.C2E46AB7%40gce.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain   F "The problem with this approach of adding more baroque design featuresC to SCSI is however that nobody implements all of SCSI. Disk vendorssE in particular are well & truly squeezed in profits and system vendorsi9 must also decide whether to use SCSI at all, or use IDE."g  ; 	So to cry and whine about READL/WRITEL non-support is okayr< 	I suppose.  But if it never comes into play, who cares?  It 	is a Zen thing isn't it?l  H > Generally you use HBVS because you want the best RAS features. You getH > those using components which are fully supported by HP. If that is notC > possible, for instance because the management of your company hastG > decided that you have to use EMC, than you would want to use at leastyD > something that complies to the specifications that are required by. > HBVS. Unfortunately, EMC is not among those.  = 	Sure - an HBVS requirement.  Unless of course you will nevert: 	use it, ignore the requirement for HBVS - and sleep well!   				Robw    F (1)  cache and disk scrubbing, everything a hyper (RAID 1 hardware) at
 a minimum.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:11:13 GMTt( From: David Harrold <DHarrold@wi.rr.com>* Subject: Finding installed images from DCL@ Message-ID: <7d1eda7ed227af56ffb462f203e6c6a7@free.teranews.com>   Hi,f  J I am trying to find a way to list all of the files that are installed (via4 INSTALL) on a disk from DCL.  This is on VMS V7.3-1.  N I am aware of F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES() and the KNOWN argument, however I would haveM to generate a list of all files on the disk and loop through them checking to I see if the file is installed.  Yes, this would work, but I was hoping foro something more streamlined.   K If you any ideas or procedures to do this, I would very much appreciate it.    Thanks,    Dave Harrold    N ..............................................................................N David Harrold                              E-Mail: David_Harrold at aurora.orgI Sr. Software Systems Engineer              Phone:          (414) 647-6204eI                                            Pager:          (414) 941-4634>G Aurora Health Care                         Fax:          (414) 647-4999e 3031 W. Montana Street Milwaukee, WI 53215u   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:28:15 -0400n$ From: "PEN" <paul.nuneznosp@mhp.com>. Subject: Re: Finding installed images from DCL, Message-ID: <bfm9ig$5qt$1@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>   Hi,e   I wonder if this would suffice:e  H     $ pipe show device/files <device>:  |  search sys$input " 00000000 "     Paul   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 17:34:28 +0200' From: huber@mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber).. Subject: Re: Finding installed images from DCL+ Message-ID: <J0nrDfHWRXHH@vms.mppmu.mpg.de>   k In article <7d1eda7ed227af56ffb462f203e6c6a7@free.teranews.com>, David Harrold <DHarrold@wi.rr.com> writes:>L > I am trying to find a way to list all of the files that are installed (via6 > INSTALL) on a disk from DCL.  This is on VMS V7.3-1. > P > I am aware of F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES() and the KNOWN argument, however I would haveO > to generate a list of all files on the disk and loop through them checking toeK > see if the file is installed.  Yes, this would work, but I was hoping for  > something more streamlined. M > If you any ideas or procedures to do this, I would very much appreciate it.  >   K Since probably there are much more files on a disk than the installed ones,tI I would go the other way: generate the list of installed files, then readd9 through it removing the ones following a disk not wanted.   ( For a disk "DISK$LABEL", something like:  4 $ pipe install list | @READ_FROM_PIPE.COM DISK$LABEL   Where READ_FROM_PIPE.COM is:  8 $ mydisk=p1 !the disk I want to know the files installed
 $ wanted=0 $loop:& $ read/end=done/err=done sys$pipe line $ ldev=f$locate(":<",line) $ if ldev.lt.f$length(line)B $ then $  wanted=0s $  disk = f$element(0,":",line)  $  if disk.eqs.mydisk  $  then  $   wanted=1 $   write sys$output linet $  endif $ else' $  if wanted then write sys$output lines $ endif0 $ goto loop  $done:   --  4    Joseph "Sepp" Huber   http://www.huber-joseph.de/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:37:15 -0500 . From: Larry Schuldt <lschuldt@Rudenessdls.net>. Subject: Re: Finding installed images from DCL8 Message-ID: <bsathv89ogp7oraalju3ctfknfv7dfv25e@4ax.com>  # Does INSTALL LIST do what you want?r   larryr --  = To reply by e-mail, be polite. Rudeness will get you nowhere.e   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 10:07:17 -07008 From: paul.greening@americanmedibanc.com (Paul Greening). Subject: Re: Finding installed images from DCL= Message-ID: <18033e7f.0307230907.5387787d@posting.google.com>d   David,  , You can build a simple procedure for this.   $ define sys$output foo.bard $ install list  C You can then parse the file to identify all of the installed imagesl and their locations.  p David Harrold <DHarrold@wi.rr.com> wrote in message news:<7d1eda7ed227af56ffb462f203e6c6a7@free.teranews.com>... > Hi,. > L > I am trying to find a way to list all of the files that are installed (via6 > INSTALL) on a disk from DCL.  This is on VMS V7.3-1. > P > I am aware of F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES() and the KNOWN argument, however I would haveO > to generate a list of all files on the disk and loop through them checking tocK > see if the file is installed.  Yes, this would work, but I was hoping for  > something more streamlined.o > M > If you any ideas or procedures to do this, I would very much appreciate it.l > 	 > Thanks,l >  > Dave Harrold >  > P > ..............................................................................P > David Harrold                              E-Mail: David_Harrold at aurora.orgK > Sr. Software Systems Engineer              Phone:          (414) 647-6204 K >                                            Pager:          (414) 941-4634oI > Aurora Health Care                         Fax:          (414) 647-4999t > 3031 W. Montana Street > Milwaukee, WI 53215    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 10:59:31 -0700/ From: kenneth.randell@verizon.net (Ken Randell)o. Subject: Re: Finding installed images from DCL= Message-ID: <79de9693.0307230959.7c96745e@posting.google.com>o  p David Harrold <DHarrold@wi.rr.com> wrote in message news:<7d1eda7ed227af56ffb462f203e6c6a7@free.teranews.com>... > Hi,@ > L > I am trying to find a way to list all of the files that are installed (via6 > INSTALL) on a disk from DCL.  This is on VMS V7.3-1. >   D Why not start with $SHOW DEVICE/FILES DXXX/OUT=X.X, read through X.XB and look for files with a value of 00000000 in the PID column, and then use f$file_attributes?c  2 Not pretty, but I think it would do what you want.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:44:32 +0100E* From: "John Travell" <john@travell.uk.net> Subject: Re: HP FUDBusting9 Message-ID: <bflf6o$g1746$1@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>-  6 "Juhana Siren" <Juhana.Siren@oulu.fi> wrote in message news:m3k7a9dbnb.fsf@oulu.fi...8 > Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes: >M! > > Perchance called d|i|g|t|a|l?X >S > "Digtal"?  >- > ITYM "d|i|g|i|t|a|l" :)- >-  H I once visited a company that had cut up and re-arranged a d|i|g|i|t|a|l sticker to read p|i|g|t|a|i|lv     -- John Travell  VMS crashdump expertise for hire john@jomatech.comt +44-(0)23-92552229 http://www.jomatech.com/       ---e& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 10/07/2003T   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 09:01:44 +0300) From: Juhana Siren <Juhana.Siren@oulu.fi>d Subject: Re: HP FUDBusting$ Message-ID: <m3k7a9dbnb.fsf@oulu.fi>  6 Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:   > Perchance called d|i|g|t|a|l?S  	 "Digtal"?e   ITYM "d|i|g|i|t|a|l" :)9   --  O ****** Juhana Siren ***** Juhana.Siren@oulu.fi ***** OH8HTH (2 m, 70 cm) ******4G         --Buddhist at a hot dog stand: "Make me one with everything."--0   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:24:59 +0200-) From: Stefaan A Eeckels <hoendech@ecc.lu>0 Subject: Re: HP FUDBusting5 Message-ID: <20030723002459.2d370348.hoendech@ecc.lu>o   On 22 Jul 2003 08:50:44 -0500h< koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  I > In article <20030721155805.6f3aee4d.hoendech@ecc.lu>, Stefaan A Eeckelsi > <hoendech@ecc.lu> writes:K > > > > > I did some work on VMS way back in 1986-1987, but I'm more; > > of a Unix man by heart (I guess people who're primarly C@ > > programmers prefer Unix, whereas administrators prefer VMS). > C >    Guess again.  Just because you like to program on UNIX doesn'to >    make it universal.a  6 My guess was based on (limited) personal observation. 8 It wasn't meant to claim that no programmers prefer VMS,3 and no admins prefer Unix. On the whole, and given -8 good admins and good programmers with experience of both OSes, I think it holds true.   -- A Stefaana -- tC "What is stated clearly conceives easily."  -- Inspired sales droidO   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 01:29:06 -0700d+ From: "Michael Vilain <vilain@spamcop.net>"c Subject: Re: HP FUDBusting5 Message-ID: <news-21ABEB.01290623072003@news.tdl.com>   / In article <vhrkfiqjgnrq17@corp.supernews.com>,m*  Michael Rice <marice@whiteice.com> wrote:  0 > On 7/21/2003 8:58 AM, Stefaan A Eeckels wrote: > [snip] > > > > > I did some work on VMS way back in 1986-1987, but I'm more; > > of a Unix man by heart (I guess people who're primarly  @ > > programmers prefer Unix, whereas administrators prefer VMS). > >  > [snip] > A > After 10+ years of writing software for VMS, Unix and Windows,  H > everything from device drivers to GUIs, I'd definitely put VMS at the G > top of the "joy to program on" list.  The overall consistency of the rG > system services, RTL, LP libraries, etc. makes VMS infinitely better dG > than Unix or Windows.  Additionally, you can study the internals and uK > they actually make sense!  I love writing code for almost all platforms, hJ > but from a software engineering perspective, VMS is far superior to the 	 > others.  >   F When the extra access control stuff went into VMS 5.<I forget>, there I were a whole series of internal kernel datastructures with prefixes like  F CIA$_, KGB$_, NSA$_ and maybe MI6$_.  Leave it to the VMS kernel team H (the orginators of the "See Figure 1" responce to customer requests for @ VMS enhancements).  I wonder if Dick Hustvedt, a key VMS kernel E developer, who was injured in a car accident ever recovered from his - coma.-  G Those were the haydays.  Bet Uncle Ken is sublimely happy these days.  s* Wonder if he still drives that Plymouth...   -- M6 DeeDee, don't press that button!  DeeDee!  NO!  Dee...   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:37:55 GMTc& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>4 Subject: Re: HP World: Why Alpha's Omega Makes Sense8 Message-ID: <5h3thvs6rio3ggrnpuga6n8ri5iikptcpr@4ax.com>  H On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:21:21 -0400, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote:  
 >jlsue wrote:OG >> I, personally, use AMD for my desktop systems.  I like their price &1I >> performance capabilities.  But I wouldn't recommend them to anyone whon% >> wants real business-class servers.a > G >Intel decides to take its experience with the 8086 and build its firstSG >"serious" enterprise chip from scratch with a totaly new paradigm.  HP-O >supporters blindly support Intel's new venture into a new chip in a new market L >segment for Intel, even before that chip has made its proofs in the market. >-  I Your characterization of "blindly" is out of line.  The Intel chip designMK and plans has been looked at by some very exceptional chip people.  Even if-G it wouldn't be as nice as EV8, I'm confident that these people can (and G will) create a product that will have great capabilities and longevity.   M >It is interesting that these same people dismiss AMD's efforts. AMD is usingaO >an architecture that has made its proofs in the market and is high volume, andt> >AMD's chip will be usable in both desktop and server configs.  G Not sure what you mean by "dismiss", but there are just no server-class J systems vendors - today - that I know of making plans for this chip.  ThatI may just be an initial problem, and Intel may lose in the end, we'll havee to wait and see.   > O >If Intel is using the 8086 to subsidize the IA64, shouldn't Ia64 supporters beeJ >affraid that if AMD erodes just a bit of the 8086 market that Intel might8 >start to hurt and the subsidy of the IA64 jeoperdized ?  F Depends greatly on timing.  Since I doubt anybody has the real numbers> behind what it takes to continue - at least until IA64 becomesK self-sufficient - I don't think it's someting to worry about at this point.r   >gJ >Does anyone have any hard facts showing that the IA64 product is actually< >profitable from the point of view of return on investment ?  J Why would you expect it to be profitable yet?  No business-critical serverI market has been realized yet - it's just too early.  IIRC, the Alpha chipiI was EV4 before most of us ever saw it in real business-use systems.  Whatl+ is the current state of IA64?  EV2?  EV2.5?r   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 12:11:27 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)eN Subject: Re: IDC reports PC Market Share: Dell over HP by a nose; both pulling3 Message-ID: <9ngd0NDsRkyW@eisner.encompasserve.org>o   In article <bfmadq$hlg$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: > Rob Young wrote:   > @ > Right so in the same period the bits of HP that you care about@ > lost 472 million dollars despite bunging their R&D budget into< > a central pot funded by printing and Sun lost 292 million. >   A 	Ah, and there's the rub Andrew.  Sun has Java and the associatedh= 	Java revenue stream to prop it up.  Ah... okay, a joke.  ButC< 	as Scott talks about growth and futures he declares Sun theD 	second largest software house (not so, IBM is that owner).  Nothing 	to prop Sun up. 	t> 	Face it - 9 straight quarters of declining revenue highlights 	a company in decline.  7 > Nice try Rob but another abject failure on your part.   ? 	Hmmmm.  Nice try Andrew.  Much as mainframes help prop up IBM, B 	Office props up Microsoft, printers prop up HP, each has a profitH 	center.  Take away SUVs and mini-vans from Ford and Chrysler (mini-vans5 	anyhow) and you take away their profit centers, etc.-  6 Symbol       Last Trade      Change            Volume : SUNW       12:49pm 3.87   -0.90 -18.87%       141,850,688   < http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/tech/kcswanson/10102503.html  H Shares of Sun Microsystems (SUNW:Nasdaq - news - commentary - research -M analysis) plunged nearly 20% a day after the company failed to offer evidenceaL of a turnaround to long-suffering investors, turning in weaker-than-expectedO sales and net income. On a per-share basis, the hardware maker proved unable too. push its finances all the way into the black.    [snip]  H "The cost of components didn't decline as fast as it did in the previousL quarter," said Sun chief Scott McNealy, explaining why gross margins fell in the June quarter.   O But he sought to evade a question about how Sun's margins are likely to fare in/F the longer term, given the company's push into lower-margin hardware.     C 	Yeah, I'd evade that one too.  Selling a whole bunch of low-margine? 	kit is Dell's strategy.  Analysts having a field day with that 3 	strategy!  But nowhere to go.  Gotta do something.t  A 	Maybe if Sun had a profit center?  But $12 million in profits on9> 	nearly $3 billion in sales, ouch!  Declining margins on those@ 	hardware sales are the future Andrew.  Sun needs to get a clue.G 	I expect that will happen in the next year.  Maybe Computer Associatesa+ 	buys you guys out.  That would be fitting!    				Rob7   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:42:32 +01001O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> Y Subject: Re: IDC reports PC Market Share: Dell over HP by a nose; both pulling away from ,0 Message-ID: <bfmadq$hlg$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:j > In article <Gc6Ta.10472$8g6.62275@news1.news.adelphia.net>, "Mark Buda" <buda_NO@SPAM.yahoo.com> writes: > M >>"Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>r= >>wrote in message news:bfh172$m94$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...r >>- >>>UNIX number one                        NOTo- >>>PC business returning to profitability NOTs- >>>Ditto Enterprise Division              NOT - >>>Merger complete                        NOT - >>>Its good to be second                  NOTN >>, >>It's good to own Sun stock             NOT >  > E > 	NOT - is right.  And how telling a comment prior to Sun financialsr > 	at close of day.  > ; > 	Again, Sun is quickly approaching Apple status regardingt > 	relevancy - not very: > C > http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/030722/markets_stocks_afterthebell_2.htmln > O > Network computer maker Sun Microsystems Inc. (NasdaqNM:SUNW - News), however, P > fell after it reported a slight quarterly profit but said revenue fell for the@ > ninth consecutive quarter on weak demand for computer servers. > M > Its shares slipped to $4.31 in the extended session from $4.77 at Tuesday's  > close. > 	 > 				Robm >     > Right so in the same period the bits of HP that you care about> lost 472 million dollars despite bunging their R&D budget into: a central pot funded by printing and Sun lost 292 million.  5 Nice try Rob but another abject failure on your part.S   RegardsD Andrew Harrisonh   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:45:27 +0100hO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>tY Subject: Re: IDC reports PC Market Share: Dell over HP by a nose; both pulling away from u0 Message-ID: <bfmaj9$hlg$3@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:s > In article <cf15391e.0307181153.5214f874@posting.google.com>, keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:s > ( >>From Interex's HP World News, July 17: >>G >>Mike Elgan comments on the real story behind the latest numbers.  See(: >>http://www.interex.org/hpwnews/content/hpwn07.17.03.html >> >>Also,y >>* >>"HP comments on IDC PC market share data >>E >>Market research firm IDC has said that PC sales grew by 7.6 percenteG >>year over year worldwide, ahead of the projected 4.1 percent. "The PC5B >>growth is good news for the industry," HP said. "Once again thisF >>quarter, the race continues to be a two-horse competition between HP >>and Dell." >  >  > . >    Yeah, but have they made any money on it? >     5 Sort of, they bunged PC R&D into a central fund so it 2 doesn't appear in the PC divisions P&L and in this7 The PC division made an operating profit after R&D bungo2 of 21 million down from 33 million in the previous quarter.   regardsu Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:03:12 +0100 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> 5 Subject: Re: IDC: HP ranks No. 1 in 2002 HPTC revenuer0 Message-ID: <bfm842$gqn$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   David Svensson wrote:H > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bfh0jr$lsd$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...1 >  >>Keith Parris wrote:  >> >>>From HP World News, July 17:^ >>> = >>>"HP ranks No. 1 in 2002 high-performance computing revenues >>>nQ >>>HP cited industry research firm IDC to claim it is the worldwide market leader Q >>>for High Performance Technical Computing (HPTC) in 2002. IDC's "Worldwide HighVL >>>Performance Systems Technical Computing Census 2002" report shows that HPQ >>>commands 34 percent revenue share, more than a five percentage point lead over  >>>IBM." >>> / >>>http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/030714/145265_1.html- >> >>C >>Shame that the 3 big DARPA contracts for HPTC systems in the HPCS9= >>program have gone in a pretty even split of ~50 million per  >>company to IBM, Sun and Cray.  >  > C > I can understand that Sun and Cray are in need for help, but IBM?r  @ Interesting Idea HP didn't get a DARPA award because they didn't	 need it !S  
 Nice spin.   RegardsS Andrew Harrisons   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:56:52 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>Y Subject: Re: Intel's had Dirty Bombs Anthrax and everything! (Was: Re: HP World: Why Alpho8 Message-ID: <n6fthvkgjj86fl5iuac20dqqab9m1tk3he@4ax.com>  H On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:10:44 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:   >e4 >"jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message3 >news:h5aghvkavsukjcto77hkv3qsd1ciu3g7le@4ax.com...o ry.  >> > >>9 >> Right.  Somehow you feel they owe you an apology.(???)n >hK >No, I feel they owe those who made decisions based upon their specific andm/ >unequivocal 'commitments to Alpha' an apology.w  E You can only claim this "requirement" for yourself.  You don't get toaE decide whether the way they did it was satisfactory for most of theirdJ customers.  Again, in the end, if you (or any other specific customer) areH not satisfied, you are fully able to vote with your feet.  At that pointI you have no other reason to continue this ranting, though, because you've * made your decision on how to deal with it.   >h >  Cool.  No audacitye	 >> there.c >pH >I've never pretended to be a shrinking violet.  If you don't like that, >tough shit.  K It's the fact that you think you speak for everyone on how they should viewy these actions that gets me.  e   >i. >>  No real "treachery" either, just business. >  >Ah - the Mafia ethic.  J Yeah, right.  They decide that the direction the company should go to meetK business goals, and they incur the risks to take it there.  Hey, it's theireH responsibility to keep the company profitable, if they don't do it, it's5 their job on the line.  Armchair refs need not apply.    >y >>E >> But do go on.  It's really good to dwell on the past indefinitely.  >eL >Remember your Santayana:  "Those who do not remember the past are condemnedL >to repeat it."  Given the disturbing parallels between Compaq's handling ofK >the 'proprietary' Alpha platform and cHumPaq's continuing handling of VMS,- >that seems particularly apt.. >I  D There's a world of difference between saying "I don't believe in 'X'J because of past behavior", and ranting constantly, in excruciating detail,K that your beliefs and opinions are fact.  The former is certainly somethingnA I can respect, the latter is getting closer to "an axe to grind."o   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 00:22:18 -07002 From: filip.de.block@proximus.net (Filip De Block)+ Subject: Re: missing multiple blocking ASTsn= Message-ID: <8366afbe.0307222322.13722980@posting.google.com>M   "John Gemignani, Jr." <jon-nope@thiswontworkossc.net> wrote in message news:<zDdTa.27156$8g6.183112@news1.news.adelphia.net>...n2 > "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote in message+ > news:vhqmc39pca1b91@news.supernews.com...LC > > "Filip De Block" <filip.de.block@proximus.net> wrote in messagev; > > news:8366afbe.0307220408.6f25cd35@posting.google.com...  > > > Hi > > > 2 > > > Process #1 takes a lock on a give resource := > > > 1. $ENQ for this resource with NL (granted immediately)l0 > > > 2. $ENQ (convert) to EX, specifying BLKAST > > > 3. goto hibernate  > > >-@ > > > Process #2 (same UIC, same cluster) tries to do the same := > > > 1. $ENQ for same resource with NL (granted immediately) 0 > > > 2. $ENQ (convert) to EX, specifying BLKASTL > > >     The lock is not granted (immediately), but as expected, the BLKAST > > > is triggered in PRC #1 > > >-K > > > PRC#1 decides (inside its BLKAST that is now active) to keep the lock E > > > for itself and do nothing. This leaves us with the second 'lockr2 > > > conversion request' on the conversion queue. > > >-K > > > After some time, PRC #2 decides to die, since it cannot get the lock,rL > > > hereby removing the usermode lock from the conversion queue, as can be > > > seen by SDA. > > >nK > > > A new process is created (PRC #2bis) that does exactly the same thing  > > > :yB > > > requesting an EX lock (via conversion) on the same resource. > > >oK > > > But this time the blocking AST for PRC #1 is not fired, and hence PRCn* > > > #1 does not know about a competitor. > > >m. > > > Anyone an idea how to get this working ? > > M > > Process #1 must convert the lock from EX to EX to reset the blocking AST.i > >  > >  > M > You only get one blocking AST per conversion.  If you convert the lock downlL > to something compatible with the other process (NL always works) then backN > up to EX, the second locker will get the lock, receive a blocking AST (if itJ > set one), release the lock (I hope), and your conversion back to EX will > obtain it again. > I > Are you using the lock to pass state/context information (via the valuea/ > block) or to synchronize access to something?u  B 1. Converting to itself (from EX to EX), hereby reestablishing the BLKAST :D no good, since it starts looping (in and out the BLKAST) because PRCB #2 still has its request queued for NL-->EX. (Killing #2 stops the looping)  D 2. Converting to NL (so #2 gets the lock) and then back to EX (so #2B triggers the BLKAST) will start a looping sequence between two (or) ever more !) processes. Still not usable.a  A The purpose of this exercise is to have 100% indentical processeseE (clusterwide) that can distribute a given number of 'resources' amongoE themselves, regardless of te number of processes. Still a long way tor go ...   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 07:54:27 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e+ Subject: Re: missing multiple blocking ASTse3 Message-ID: <Bb07ICUVEZWP@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <8366afbe.0307222322.13722980@posting.google.com>, filip.de.block@proximus.net (Filip De Block) writes: > D > 1. Converting to itself (from EX to EX), hereby reestablishing the
 > BLKAST :F > no good, since it starts looping (in and out the BLKAST) because PRCD > #2 still has its request queued for NL-->EX. (Killing #2 stops the
 > looping) > F > 2. Converting to NL (so #2 gets the lock) and then back to EX (so #2D > triggers the BLKAST) will start a looping sequence between two (or+ > ever more !) processes. Still not usable.t > C > The purpose of this exercise is to have 100% indentical processeslG > (clusterwide) that can distribute a given number of 'resources' amongeG > themselves, regardless of te number of processes. Still a long way to  > go ...  8   Sounds like you need to rethink you're locking design.  H   What is the purpose of having a blocking AST if process #1 isn't going,   to give up the lock?  Is this conditional?  E   I think you need some mechanism (a doorbell lock would suffice) forsD   process #1 to tell process #2 it can't have the original lock, andF   should go away.  Then process #2 should cancel it's enque and informH   process #1 that it's OK to reestablish the blocking AST.  But you needB   to work out a complete and proper design without the flaw I just
   thought of.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:40:37 -0400l% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>s+ Subject: Re: missing multiple blocking ASTs>/ Message-ID: <vht7ivpo80c7b6@news.supernews.com>r  ? "Filip De Block" <filip.de.block@proximus.net> wrote in messageI7 news:8366afbe.0307222322.13722980@posting.google.com... H > "John Gemignani, Jr." <jon-nope@thiswontworkossc.net> wrote in message8 news:<zDdTa.27156$8g6.183112@news1.news.adelphia.net>...4 > > "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote in message- > > news:vhqmc39pca1b91@news.supernews.com...sE > > > "Filip De Block" <filip.de.block@proximus.net> wrote in messagei= > > > news:8366afbe.0307220408.6f25cd35@posting.google.com...v
 > > > > Hi > > > >-4 > > > > Process #1 takes a lock on a give resource :? > > > > 1. $ENQ for this resource with NL (granted immediately)C2 > > > > 2. $ENQ (convert) to EX, specifying BLKAST > > > > 3. goto hibernatet > > > >OB > > > > Process #2 (same UIC, same cluster) tries to do the same :? > > > > 1. $ENQ for same resource with NL (granted immediately) 2 > > > > 2. $ENQ (convert) to EX, specifying BLKASTG > > > >     The lock is not granted (immediately), but as expected, theA BLKAST > > > > is triggered in PRC #1 > > > >DH > > > > PRC#1 decides (inside its BLKAST that is now active) to keep the lockG > > > > for itself and do nothing. This leaves us with the second 'lockr4 > > > > conversion request' on the conversion queue. > > > >aG > > > > After some time, PRC #2 decides to die, since it cannot get thed lock,CK > > > > hereby removing the usermode lock from the conversion queue, as can  be > > > > seen by SDA. > > > > G > > > > A new process is created (PRC #2bis) that does exactly the samee thingt	 > > > > :oD > > > > requesting an EX lock (via conversion) on the same resource. > > > >iI > > > > But this time the blocking AST for PRC #1 is not fired, and hencee PRC , > > > > #1 does not know about a competitor. > > > > 0 > > > > Anyone an idea how to get this working ? > > >bJ > > > Process #1 must convert the lock from EX to EX to reset the blocking AST. > > >o > > >B > >cJ > > You only get one blocking AST per conversion.  If you convert the lock downI > > to something compatible with the other process (NL always works) theng backI > > up to EX, the second locker will get the lock, receive a blocking AST  (if itL > > set one), release the lock (I hope), and your conversion back to EX will > > obtain it again. > > K > > Are you using the lock to pass state/context information (via the valuei1 > > block) or to synchronize access to something?  >aD > 1. Converting to itself (from EX to EX), hereby reestablishing the
 > BLKAST :F > no good, since it starts looping (in and out the BLKAST) because PRCD > #2 still has its request queued for NL-->EX. (Killing #2 stops the
 > looping) >0F > 2. Converting to NL (so #2 gets the lock) and then back to EX (so #2D > triggers the BLKAST) will start a looping sequence between two (or+ > ever more !) processes. Still not usable.. >gC > The purpose of this exercise is to have 100% indentical processes G > (clusterwide) that can distribute a given number of 'resources' amongiG > themselves, regardless of te number of processes. Still a long way toR > go ...  J If that's the purpose, why do you need a blocking AST?  If the holder of aE resource needs to know if there are other processes that would acceptiL ownership of the lock, it could call sys$getlki to see who's waiting for the	 resource.N   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:51:09 GMTi' From: Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com>r, Subject: Re: Mozilla... the new NULL process< Message-ID: <N9yTa.36504$8g6.591729@news1.news.adelphia.net>  F The polling is done in GTK, not Mozilla (its checking on X events and H sockets). The code changes to make this AST driven for OpenVMS would be E enough to cause the GTK folks to say "we don't want all this OpenVMS tF stuff polluting our source tree". And my goal is to always be able to $ check in any changes I have to make.  B Maybe if GTK2 is ever ported to OpenVMS it can be done "properly".   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:23:02 +0200 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>, Subject: Re: Mozilla... the new NULL process9 Message-ID: <bfmd56$gcjjf$2@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>n  ( On 23-Jul-2003 17:51, Colin Blake wrote:  H > The polling is done in GTK, not Mozilla (its checking on X events and J > sockets). The code changes to make this AST driven for OpenVMS would be G > enough to cause the GTK folks to say "we don't want all this OpenVMS 4H > stuff polluting our source tree". And my goal is to always be able to & > check in any changes I have to make. > D > Maybe if GTK2 is ever ported to OpenVMS it can be done "properly".  E What about "(C)SWB", the officially supported HP browser for OpenVMS?n Polling or ASTs?   Michaelm   --    @ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system. = And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)g   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 07:05:34 -0700/ From: p.l.vermeulen@hccnet.nl (Peter Vermeulen)e' Subject: Re: New OpenVMS-to-Itanium FAQv= Message-ID: <e37e9772.0307230605.40a4b06b@posting.google.com>u  h Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<TiioV1zpC49I@eisner.encompasserve.org>...s > In article <RIW9av1ku0qo@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: | > > In article <jwHVJZYbgA83@eisner.encompasserve.org>, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes:m > >> In article <faf7c984.0307210635.34958dd1@posting.google.com>, stan@stanq.com (Stanley F. Quayle) writes:m > >>> J > >>> There's another choice, too.  Software Resources International has a0 > >>> PL/1 to C++ translation service available. > >>>  > >> iM > >> If PL/1 advocates are anything like Ada advocates, then that option willr- > >> be looked on less than favourably... :-)w > > C > >    I don't know about SRI's duct, but many translators generate	H > >    unreadable code not meant to be meaintained by human beings.  ForC > >    those systems the usual approach is to maintain the original2D > >    and simply include the translation step as part of compiling. > ? > And consider carefully what sort of debugger support you get.5 > J > This is the same issue that was apparent with SRI's psuedo-SCAN compilerH > for Alpha, and they admitted they expected applications would continueJ > to be developed on VAX and then ported to the undebuggable Alpha.  Maybe4 > it is a sales technique for their VAX emulator :-)  E The port of the VAX Scan compile to Alpha (AlphaScan) that is done bysE SRI is a very successful one. We have used the compiler for some timeeB now on our Alpha systems and the applications run very well on the? Alpha. There is also debugger support on the Alpha with limited.< functionality on examining local variables but not on globalF variables. In the (standard) OpenVMS debugger normal display of source- code and stepping functionality is available.eF With that I don't know what you mean by "the undebuggable Alpha", this is not the experience I have.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:36:09 GMT * From: Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com>? Subject: Re: Non-OpenVMS ethernet access to Printserver 17/600?e5 Message-ID: <230720031135577746%paul.anderson@hp.com>n  = In article <vfdrhvcc6uld8n97r2h0n22d7aak7eih7i@4ax.com>, Bills& Valentine-Cooper <wvc@nwcs.com> wrote:  1 > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:06:12 GMT, Paul Anderson  > <paul.anderson@hp.com> wrote:  >sF > >If the PrintServer is already booted from somewhere, can't you justG > >use LPD from Windows to print?  (Assuming your flavor of Windows hasb' > >been blessed with LPD capabilities.)e > D > To the best of my knowledge, no. I can't find a port that's up forG > LPD -- nobody's home on 515. There is something listening on 170, butd1 > it doesn't respond in any way I can understand.o  > Maybe the PrintServer is not configured for LPD.  It has to be6 specifically enabled when running LPS$ADD_PRINTSERVER.  G I can Telnet to port 515 on my PrintServer 17/600 and an entered randomn< command will return "Bad LPD request code (protocol error)".   Paul   -- e  Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineeringw   Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 06:09:37 +0200o& From: "maurix" <mizioduck@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: OpenVms Backupa- Message-ID: <bfl1o6$339$1@e3k.asi.ansaldo.it>   	 Hi Colin!l  H You are right: my system has 2 disks. But I did backup of both using the same procedure. D When I restore both the disks I've the same error with PAGEFILE.SYS.  8 Could you give me some advices with the restore command?   I used:r  2 $$$ BACKUP/IMAGE/LOG MKA500:*.BCK/REW DKA300:/INIT   and the same with DKA100.d   TUVM   maurix   -- md'a :-)n mizioduck@hotmail.come (uck=a)f  B "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> wrote:  L > Reading this again (carefully!) you seem to have done enough to get a goodH > backup of your system disc. The key is that you did boot from the CD - whichpK > is the correct thing to be doing (as all the noise above will have helpedt > you work out). >dG > So, we come to the inescapable conclusion that  your system was not a0 singleH > disc system, but had at least the page file off the system disc, maybe othereJ > files too. In which case you should find out which other discs had files on > that you might need. >r6 > In the meantime creating a page file is easy enough: >i9 > MCR SYSGEN CREATE SYS$SYSTEM:PAGEFILE.SYS/SIZE=<blocks>a >  > Then reboot. >7A > Also check for SYS$SYSTEM:SWAPFILE.SYS, SYS$SYSTEM:SYSDUMP.DMP,uK > SYS$SYSTEM:SYSUAF.DAT,RIGHTSLIST.DAT,NETPROXY.DAT,NET$PROXY.DAT etc. etc.7 >8I > Personally I start with pagefile size = 250000 blocks, swap file size =rE > 50000 blocks. I usually try to force then to be contiguous (/CONTIGpK > qualifier when creating the file) and generally set the version number to 4 > ;32767 so that they cannot be modified by AUTOGEN. >s) > Hope this helps get you up and running.a >sC > -----------------------------------------------------------------f > Hope this helps, Colin.a+ > colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT ukVJ > Systems Archaeologist - Investigation & troubleshooting of older systems ande > networks.e > "o >n >t   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:06:46 GMTeA From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk>  Subject: Re: OpenVms Backupl; Message-ID: <W6tTa.921$h57.9498770@news-text.cableinet.net>u  J Your command line is trying to restore ALL (*) savesets to the same disc -F and INIT on the way out to disc. What you'll have done is restored allL savesets in order onto the target disc, initialising the disc each time. YouE were probably lucky that the last (presumably second) saveset had the( bootable system in it.  F Assuming that you want to create a single disc system from a twin discK system, then you should restore the bootable disc saveset to  DKA300:, then1I boot the system from DKA300 (I'd do a minimum boot), check the content of-I the second saveset and then selectively restore the files from the secondn saveset onto the booted disc.g  < Assuming this to be an Alpha that would look something like:   boot CD:  A $$$ BACKUP <tape><old_bootable_system_saveset>/SAVE/IMAGE/NOALIAS  DKA300:/INIT  	 shut down2  I boot DKA300 (I'd boot minimum: >>> B -FL 0,1 then SYSBOOT> SET STARTUP_P1l "MIN", then SYSBOOT> CONTINUE)  ) bring devices online (SYSMAN IO AUTO ALL)   8 list savesets on tape (BACKUP/LIST=<file> <tape>*.*/SAVE  J check the saveset contents for the second (non bootable) disc - should see PAGEFILE.SYS etc.l  E selectively restore the files you need from the saveset of the secondd (non-bootable) disc:   BACKUPF <tape><second_disc_saveset>/SAVE/NOIMAGE/SELECT=<directory><file_list>, SYS$SYSDEVICE:<directory>/LOG/OWNER=ORIGINAL  K Edit files you need to change (eg: SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM, SYPAGSWPFILES.COM) to % remove references to the second disc.r  $ Reset STARTUP_P1 to "" using SYSGEN.   Reboot and test.  
 Good luck.      J Alternatively get a second disc and build a replica system using two discs with identical device names.      A -----------------------------------------------------------------a Hope this helps, Colin.o) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uk L Systems Archaeologist - Investigation & troubleshooting of older systems and	 networks.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:11:05 GMTAA From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk>V Subject: Re: OpenVms BackupD; Message-ID: <ZatTa.925$_t7.9862371@news-text.cableinet.net>3  - Oops - didn't read carefully enough (again!).a  L Looks like you are trying to build a two disc system from a two disc system.  = So restore the two savesets separately to DKA300: and DKA100:   F $$$ BACKUP <tape><dka300_saveset_name>/SAVE/IMAGE/NOALIAS DKA300:/INIT  F $$$ BACKUP <tape><dka100_saveset_name>/SAVE/IMAGE/NOALIAS DKA100:/INIT  I You must use the correct saveset name each time - wildcard (*) isn't goode enough.-      A -----------------------------------------------------------------0 Hope this helps, Colin.k) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT ukBL Systems Archaeologist - Investigation & troubleshooting of older systems and	 networks.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:55:42 GMT * From: "Mark Buda" <buda_NO@SPAM.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: OpenVms Backup < Message-ID: <OQtTa.36387$8g6.500700@news1.news.adelphia.net>  ; "Brian Tillman" <Tillman@sparkingwire.com> wrote in messaget news:3f1d91ae$1@news.si.com...G > >More common is an inconsistent or completely invalid (unusable) data  file.e >aK > But the files susceptible to being inconsistent are quite rare (unless ansK > Oracle or other database system is involved) and those that do happen arenG > easily remedied simply by recreating the file (like the queue manager 	 > files).a  = I have seen inconsistent files more times than I like to say.o  7 SYSUAF and other files have been corrupted in the past.W  L If you are backing up an active indexed file with /ignore=interlock, you are4 playing with fire and your companies data integrity.  L When you need that critical file and have to call CSC to ask for help, thinkJ about it, was it worth it to have your system down for 12-24 hours because' you did not back up the data correctly?a   Don't play with fire.c   mark   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:17:57 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: OpenVms Backupa+ Message-ID: <bflqt5$8g7$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>m  i In article <OQtTa.36387$8g6.500700@news1.news.adelphia.net>, "Mark Buda" <buda_NO@SPAM.yahoo.com> writes:r< >"Brian Tillman" <Tillman@sparkingwire.com> wrote in message >news:3f1d91ae$1@news.si.com...'H >> >More common is an inconsistent or completely invalid (unusable) data >file. >>L >> But the files susceptible to being inconsistent are quite rare (unless anL >> Oracle or other database system is involved) and those that do happen areH >> easily remedied simply by recreating the file (like the queue manager
 >> files). > > >I have seen inconsistent files more times than I like to say. > 8 >SYSUAF and other files have been corrupted in the past. >e  M I've been backing up and restoring the system disk with /ignore=interlock forcI 15 odd years. Have lost the queue manager files on a couple of occasions.t( Have never had any problems with sysuaf.  B Obviously you pick a relatively quiescent time to do your backup. D I could probably corrupt the sysuaf if I chose to backup it up when J simultaneously bulk loading 8000 students - hence I don't tend to do that.  h  K Oracle is a whole different ballgame. It plays fast and loose bypassing RMSi  in order to improve performance.    M >If you are backing up an active indexed file with /ignore=interlock, you are-5 >playing with fire and your companies data integrity.j >lM >When you need that critical file and have to call CSC to ask for help, thinksK >about it, was it worth it to have your system down for 12-24 hours because3( >you did not back up the data correctly? >. >Don't play with fire. >e  O The officially sanctioned method of doing a standalone backup is impossible forr6 most companies nowadays when 24x7 uptime is required. F Hence you are forced to either use /ignore=interlock or to muck aroundL dismounting and remounting shadowsets - which since the shadowsets are thereN for resilience probably means you need to have each volume comprising a 3 disk
 shadowset.  H This is why I was so disappointed when Compaq dropped development of theM software which would have allowed you to take a consistent snapshot of a disk" which could then be backed up.K They produced the product for NT. They have something very similar in Tru64pF with the ADvFS cloning facility but they decided to cancel it for VMS.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader t CCSS Middlesex University       >markn >i >    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:13:36 GMTi3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)n Subject: Re: OpenVms Backupe/ Message-ID: <kKwTa.706$wV2.18@news.cpqcorp.net>p  . In article <22JUL200317553736@gerg.tamu.edu>, ) carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:s  B >That the DBMS vendors have solved the [backup] problem for their  >DBMS/DB is fine.b >n5 >But it does nothing for backing up your system disk.h  B This is correct, and is probably a major reason for wanting to useC /INGORE=INTERLOCK.  In many cases this, together with procedures to B re-create files that are NOT correctly backed up, is the solution 	 chosen.  o  @ If you choose this solution, I recommend that you pay particular> attention to making a "stand alone backup" of your system diskB after each OpenVMS upgrade, and after any major product install orC upgrade; and that you have procedures in place to roll forward from ! that backup when it is necessary.o  G If you have non-system data files on your system disk, I also recommendtE that you find a backup mechanism for them that is independent of youra system backup.   -- eJ       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 08:53:59 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) + Subject: RE: Packed decimal arithmetic in C-3 Message-ID: <9f1FWK5H2q10@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  U In article <4TiTa.662$%r2.13@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:a3 > From: James Gessling [mailto:jgessling@yahoo.com]:A > :Anyone know of library functions (or anything) callable from Ca5 > :that can handle this [packed decimal format math]?R > H >   Packed decimal math is slow in general, and conversions are requiredK >   for most math operations; OpenVMS performs math using native datatypes.vL >   Convert to a native integer format, and do the math.  Then convert back.F >   Use lib$cvt_dx_dx, or such, with the packed-decimal string type.    @ I am not sure there was a statement that performance was a goal.% Certainly you did not quote it above.   C For something performed infrequently, typical performance variationr does not matter.  F >   You could also call a COBOL or PL/I routine, languages which have * >   integrated support for packed decimal.  7 That certainly handles the "something callable" choice.d   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 02:14:09 -0700# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley)b' Subject: Re: Poor disk IO.  How to fix? = Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0307230114.66b0eb52@posting.google.com>,  ~ Michael Lemke <ai26.nospam@sternwarte.uni-erlangen.de> wrote in message news:<3F1D99BB.FD6D081D@sternwarte.uni-erlangen.de>...H > On our 3 node Alpha cluster I notice terrible disk IO perfromance whenG > compared to say, a Linux PC.  A simple tar xvf ...  takes 40 sec realgI > time but only 1 sec CPU time.  The same operation on an 800MHz Linux PCa, > finishes in 1.7 sec with 0.1 sec CPU time. > I > What I am really concerned with is the elapsed time.  I notice this badcJ > performance with all sorts of applications, it is not restricted to tar. > B the "Guide to OpenVMS file operations" is very good on tuning file access% here is a summary (sorry if it wraps)n  & 9.2.3.3 Summary of Performance OptionsD The following table summarizes the run-time open and connect options0 that may affect performance: Option  Description Asynchronous record F processing 1  Specifies that record I/O for this record stream is done  asynchronously. See Section 8.7. FDL: CONNECT ASYNCHRONOUS  RMS: RAB$L_ROP RAB$V_ASY    pB Deferred-write 1  Allows records to be accumulated in a buffer andF written only when the buffer is needed or when the file is closed. For< use by all except nonshared sequential files. See Chapter 3. FDL: FILE DEFERRED_WRITE s RMS: FAB$L_FOP FAB$V_DFW g    Default extension B quantity  Specifies the number of blocks to be allocated to a file when more space is needed. FDL: FILE EXTENSION  RMS: FAB$W_DEQ a  sD Fast delete 1  Postpones certain internal operations associated withF deleting indexed file records until the record is accessed again. ThisF allows records to be deleted rapidly but may affect the performance of& subsequent accessors reading the file. FDL: CONNECT FAST_DELETE   RMS: RAB$L_ROP RAB$V_FDL C  u Global buffer E count  Specifies whether global buffers are used and the number to benB used if the record stream is the first to connect to the file. See Section 7.3.! FDL: CONNECT GLOBAL_BUFFER_COUNT t RMS: FAB$W_GBC E  rA Locate mode 1  Allows the use of locate mode, not move mode, when ! reading records. See Section 7.3.o FDL: CONNECT LOCATE_MODE > RMS: RAB$L_ROP RAB$V_LOC o   F Multiblock count  Allows multiple blocks to be transferred into memoryF during a single I/O operation (for sequential files only). See Chapter 3 and Section 7.3. FDL: CONNECT MULTIBLOCK_COUNT  RMS: RAB$B_MBC    tE Number of buffers  Enables the use of multiple buffers for the buffer ? cache when used with indexed and relative files; when used withs= sequential files, enables the use of multiple buffers for thet5 read-ahead and write-behind options. See Section 7.3.r FDL: CONNECT MULTIBUFFER_COUNT e RMS: RAB$B_MBF    rD Read-ahead 1  Alternates buffer use between two buffers when reading  sequential files. See Chapter 2. FDL: CONNECT READ_AHEAD  RMS: RAB$L_ROP RAB$V_RAH a  a Retrieval window iF size  Specifies the number of entries in memory for retrieval windows,6 which corresponds to the number of extents for a file. FDL: FILE WINDOW_SIZE  RMS: FAB$B_RTV    a Sequential access ; only  Indicates that a sequential file may only be accessed3
 sequentially.h FDL: FILE SEQUENTIAL_ONLY  RMS: FAB$L_FOP FAB$V_SQO r  oF Write-behind 1  Alternates buffer use between two buffers when writing# to sequential files. See Chapter 2.r FDL: CONNECT WRITE_BEHIND  RMS: RAB$L_ROP RAB$V_WBH   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 07:40:44 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ' Subject: Re: Poor disk IO.  How to fix?e3 Message-ID: <9YGAQIElC5Cj@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  U In article <3F1DA51C.6000204@MMaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes:0  tG > My supposition is that first, you have unrealistic expectations when aK > comparing dissimilar hardware architectures and configurations, and that eD > your system's memory is most likely still configured for VAX (ie. 8 > smaller working sets, max virtual address space, etc).  B    I really doubt it's the hardware architecture.  I suspect if heI    compared a VAX running VMS against the _same_ VAX running UNIX, or an iD    Alpha running VMS against the _same_ Alpha running UNIX, he'd seeG    similar results.  It's the IO subsystem architecture that's really a     big factor here.r   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2003 08:09:36 -0700( From: rferrell@smcwv.com (Rusty Ferrell)H Subject: Questions regarding OVMS 7.3-1 and Pathworks v6.0 compatibility= Message-ID: <9b72a38f.0307230709.288de306@posting.google.com>n  < Hello all! Looking for some info from the VMS experts again.A Existing system is an Alpha Server 2100 running OVMS v7.1 and hass@ Pathworks v6.0 installed. The new system is a DS10L Alpha ServerF running OVMS v7.3-1. I have installed the same Pathworks software thatE the existing system uses, but I get many errors in the PWRK$LOG filesl@ pretty much indicating "no client will be connected over <insertD protocol here>". I read in a FAQ on HP's site that Pathworks v6.1 isD the minimum level required for o/s version 7.3-1 so I'm now thinking9 that I may HAVE to upgrade Pathworks & Pathworks Clients.e  E My questions are based around this compatibility issue. Regarding thedF client software - we a several old '386 and '486 PC's that are used toF get data from instruments, bar code readers, etc. They use a PathworksB DOS client. If I have to upgrade Pathworks client software, will IA loose the DOS client? And if not, can I assume that the "new" DOS 7 client will run in the same environment (386/486 PC's)?s  ? Since I am still "wet behind the ears" at this VMS "stuff", cannB someone look at the information from th elog file below and see if@ what they read is consistent with the OVMS7.3-1 / Pathworks v6.0E compatibility issue or have I done something incorrectly to cause thex problem?  E Here is a sniplet os the PWRK$MONITOR_XXX.LOG file so you can see thea message:F 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.12 00000356:00249928   MONITOR_DISABLE_WRITE_LIST : OFCnF 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.12 00000356:00249928 MONITOR_DISABLE_COLLECT_LIST : OFC F 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.12 00000356:00249928              PFS_CACHE_IMAGE
 : PWRK$PCMSHR3B 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.18 00000356:00353948 In module <cmtnetio>, in function <OpenXportFd>E 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.18 00000356:00353948       Message Text: t_errnot: from t_open for <netbios/streams/nbes>: XTI protocol error? 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.18 00000356:00353948       Status Code: 29YB 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.18 00000356:00353948 In module <cmtnetio>, in function <XportListener>@ 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.18 00000356:00353948       Message Text: No2 clients will be connected over <NetBEUI (session)>> 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.18 00000356:00353948       Status Code: 1B 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.18 00000356:00353948 In module <cmtnetio>, in function <OpenXportFd>E 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.18 00000356:00353948       Message Text: t_errnoi: from t_open for <netbios/streams/knbs>: XTI protocol error? 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.18 00000356:00353948       Status Code: 29dB 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.18 00000356:00353948 In module <cmtnetio>, in function <XportListener>@ 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.18 00000356:00353948       Message Text: No1 clients will be connected over <TCP/IP (session)>a> 22-JUL-2003 15:23:26.18 00000356:00353948       Status Code: 1    4 You guys (and gals!) and great! Thanks for any help!  
 Rusty Ferrell  rferrell@smcwv.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:47:06 GMTl* From: "Mark Buda" <buda_NO@SPAM.yahoo.com>( Subject: Sun Micro Profit, Revenues Fall< Message-ID: <KItTa.36385$8g6.498654@news1.news.adelphia.net>  K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>a; wrote in message news:bfivq7$cjv$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...e > Mark Buda wrote:' > > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"e' <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>a? > > wrote in message news:bfh172$m94$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...t > > . > >>UNIX number one                        NOT. > >>PC business returning to profitability NOT. > >>Ditto Enterprise Division              NOT. > >>Merger complete                        NOT. > >>Its good to be second                  NOT > >. > >F. > > It's good to own Sun stock             NOT6 > > Andrew never stretches his nose or the truth   NOT > >n >o' > So which of my points was incorrect ?n >@< > HP is not the number one UNIX vendor despite their claims.@ > The PC division has not turned around, R&D costs for PC's have- > simply been moved into another cost bucket.s > Ditto Enterprise systems.p9 > The merger isn't complete it will only be complete when 7 > all the product lines have merged and that is nowhere. > near being the case.6 > And its never good to be second when you were first. >$ > These are all facts. >N: > But I guess we will never know what you think about them? > since you made the mistake of attacking the messenger and not2 > the message.  J Just the facts Andrew.  You and I can pick firsts with many companies.  It: is obvious that SUN is in trouble according to the article@ http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/030722/tech_sunmicrosystems_earns_5.html  K Another article said "Its proprietary equipment based on the Unix operating I system now must compete with rival machines that run less-expensive chipsaE and software."   I thought SUN used industry standard hardware... :-)r   SUN IS IN TROUBLE...  H For the year, Sun lost $2.38 billion, or 75 cents per share, on sales ofG $11.43 billion. Last year, it lost $587 million, or 18 cents per share.e  * It's good to own Sun stock             NOT    I SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Network computer maker Sun Microsystems Inc. onnI Tuesday reported quarterly profit fell 80 percent as revenue declined foruB the ninth consecutive quarter on weak demand for computer servers.   ... - "Sun, the No. 3 maker of computer servers"...c  = For its fiscal fourth quarter ended June 30, Sun Microsystems?L (NasdaqNM:SUNW - News) said it had net income of $12 million, or nil cents aH share, down 80 percent from $61 million, or 2 cents, a year ago. Revenue4 fell 13 percent to $2.98 billion from $3.42 billion.   SUN FAILS TO SHINE  F "Obviously, we're dealing with a pretty tough year," McNealy said on a conference call with analysts.       As you say Andrews   "These are all facts"y  $ Is your nose getting any longer? :-)   mark   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:38:00 +0100 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>l, Subject: Re: Sun Micro Profit, Revenues Fall0 Message-ID: <bfma5a$hlg$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Mark Buda wrote:M > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>o= > wrote in message news:bfivq7$cjv$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...c >  >>Mark Buda wrote: >>& >>>"Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" >>) > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>o > > >>>wrote in message news:bfh172$m94$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... >>>c >>>e. >>>>UNIX number one                        NOT. >>>>PC business returning to profitability NOT. >>>>Ditto Enterprise Division              NOT. >>>>Merger complete                        NOT. >>>>Its good to be second                  NOT >>>n >>>.- >>>It's good to own Sun stock             NOTm5 >>>Andrew never stretches his nose or the truth   NOTW >>>n >>' >>So which of my points was incorrect ?e >>< >>HP is not the number one UNIX vendor despite their claims.@ >>The PC division has not turned around, R&D costs for PC's have- >>simply been moved into another cost bucket.: >>Ditto Enterprise systems.l9 >>The merger isn't complete it will only be complete wheni7 >>all the product lines have merged and that is nowhereo >>near being the case.6 >>And its never good to be second when you were first. >> >>These are all facts. >>: >>But I guess we will never know what you think about them? >>since you made the mistake of attacking the messenger and not  >>the message. >  > L > Just the facts Andrew.  You and I can pick firsts with many companies.  It< > is obvious that SUN is in trouble according to the articleB > http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/030722/tech_sunmicrosystems_earns_5.html >   ; So why not address my points instead of trying to FUD Sun ?A    M > Another article said "Its proprietary equipment based on the Unix operatinghK > system now must compete with rival machines that run less-expensive chips1G > and software."   I thought SUN used industry standard hardware... :-)y >  > SUN IS IN TROUBLE... > J > For the year, Sun lost $2.38 billion, or 75 cents per share, on sales ofI > $11.43 billion. Last year, it lost $587 million, or 18 cents per share.e >   < If you don't know what a non cash related charge is then you; shouldn't be posting your apparent analysis of our results.o  @ Sun lost 2.38 billion last year but that includes a 2.13 billionA dollar write down because the book value of companies Sun aquiredi has gone down.  = So Sun in fact lost 292 million this year lower than our lastt years loss.m  < And just for laughs the PC and Enterprise Systems businesses. within HP lost 472 million in the same period.  8 HP's PC and Enterprise Systems businesses are in trouble3 in particular the Enterprise Systems Business whichr7 is the unit that competes diectly with Sun, in the samei3 period it lost 371 million and this is based on the2A numbers HP reported for the last 2 quarters which moved R&D costs ? out of PC's and Enteprise Systems so that the Printing business 9 could subsidise them without appearing to do so directly.N  : Ohh dear ooh dear, ohh dear how does it feal when your own  argument comes back to bite you.  6 Just try answering my points its less damaging for you in the long run.   regardsN Andrew Harrisona   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:03:45 +0200  From: dm <dimez@gmx.ch>d Subject: Sybase client% Message-ID: <3F1E5D81.1010108@gmx.ch>   I Has any body a running sybase client (license locally installed) for VMS )G 7.1-2 (or higher) which can query with the IP stack (TCP-IP V5.1-15 or h	 higher) ? 3 (Decnet is working, but on PC only TCP is working!)    thanks for any ideas or helpso   Dieter Meier   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:40:13 -0400h From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: The PDP lives? Message-ID: <OF51912DBC.F0BF2AEA-ON85256D6C.0060EA7A@metso.com>d   http://www.oldi.com/tecla/  / Tune Your Manufacturing and Business Operationsa* with TECLA?, a Programmable Data Processor     =    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:16:30 GMTn& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>( Subject: Re: What are HP Insiders doing?8 Message-ID: <cngthv4a5a7rb2klelqbc7b1mti3ptjdce@4ax.com>  F On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:43:47 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:  @ >No Fred, it's that insiders are apparently NOT buying HP stock. >IE >If you look at the date ranges of the trades, we're talking nearly 1rA >year of elapsed time and the ratio of sales:purchases is 20:1 orc
 >thereabouts.e >c  K It's curious, though, that for them to sell it, somebody is also buying it.d Wonder who that would be.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.404 ************************