1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 30 Jul 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 418       Contents:! .com file to zero out disk errors % Re: .com file to zero out disk errors % Re: .com file to zero out disk errors ( Re: Campus and Pathworks/Advanced Server; CMS-E-NORESERVATION, error reserving XYZ:[ABC.CMS_LIB]A.TXT ? Re: CMS-E-NORESERVATION, error reserving XYZ:[ABC.CMS_LIB]A.TXT 5 Re: Creating an EVE or TPU Section File [OT, rather.] N Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and  PowerfulPerformanceN Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and  PowerfulPerformanceP Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful  Performance N Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful PerformanceN Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful PerformanceN Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful PerformanceP Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance P Re: duplicating system disks Re: duplicating system disks Re: EMC on VMS Re: Firewall for VMS Re: Firewall for VMS Re: HP FUDBusting , Re: IDC: HP ranks No. 1 in 2002 HPTC revenue Re: Model Update Plan  Re: Model Update Plan + Re: Moving cluster whilst maintaing quorum. + Re: Moving cluster whilst maintaing quorum. + Re: Moving cluster whilst maintaing quorum. + Re: Moving cluster whilst maintaing quorum. + Re: Moving cluster whilst maintaing quorum. + Re: Moving cluster whilst maintaing quorum. ( Need recommendations for a new tape silo, Re: Need recommendations for a new tape silo Network Attached Storage. Re: NEWBIE Q: How to work with a PACKAGE file? Re: NT Clusters  Re: NT Clusters  Re: OpenVms Backup Re: OpenVms Backup/ Re: OT:problems with JCC oracleRDB mailing list " Re: Packed decimal arithmetic in C Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  Re: Read MAG tape to disk  Running Java program detached ! Re: Running Java program detached 2 Re: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?)2 Re: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?)2 Re: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?)2 Re: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?)2 RE: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?) SSH EAK (T5.3-11E) quirks? Re: Sun and SCO  Re: Sun and SCO  Re: Sun and SCO  Re: Sun and SCO  Re: Sun and SCO  Re: Sun and SCO  Re: Sun and SCO  Re: Sun and SCO  Re: Sun and SCO  Re: Sun and SCO  Re: Sun and SCO # Re: Sun Micro Profit, Revenues Fall # Re: Sun Micro Profit, Revenues Fall 3 Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP 3 Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP 3 Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP 3 RE: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP 3 RE: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP 3 Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP 3 RE: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP 3 Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP 6 Re: TCPIP$TRACEROUTE: A non-recoverable error occured.  Re: the newest file in directory& Third party volume shadowing products?* Re: Third party volume shadowing products?* Re: Third party volume shadowing products?* Re: Third party volume shadowing products?" [Change topic -> OT] Pence/Pennies& Re: [Change topic -> OT] Pence/Pennies  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:36:23 -0500 + From: Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> * Subject: .com file to zero out disk errors/ Message-ID: <3F27E5F7.6080004@ceris.purdue.edu>    anyone have one.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:04:50 +0100 " From: "Rolona" <nospam@nospam.com>. Subject: Re: .com file to zero out disk errors@ Message-ID: <S2SVa.11859$R14.10485@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>   sys$system:shutdown.com   8 "Chuck Aaron" <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> wrote in message) news:3F27E5F7.6080004@ceris.purdue.edu...  > anyone have one. >    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 12:06:43 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) . Subject: Re: .com file to zero out disk errors3 Message-ID: <ggddPVQaVu0v@eisner.encompasserve.org>   e In article <S2SVa.11859$R14.10485@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, "Rolona" <nospam@nospam.com> writes:    <top posting corrected>   : > "Chuck Aaron" <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> wrote in message+ > news:3F27E5F7.6080004@ceris.purdue.edu...  >> anyone have one.    <top posting corrected>    > sys$system:shutdown.com   7 	$ PRODUCT INSTALL VMS/BASE_SYSTEM=AXPVMS/VERSION=7.3-2   $ at least according to recent rumors.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:16:25 -0400 5 From: "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccuskerNosp@Mcompaq.com> 1 Subject: Re: Campus and Pathworks/Advanced Server / Message-ID: <vifduvmbhlea7f@corp.supernews.com>   5 "Mark Iline" <system@meng.ucl.ac.uk> wrote in message 7 news:e3fef766.0307290626.641fbbcc@posting.google.com...  > H > By purchasing a DECcampus licence on a particular system, we generallyD > get unlimited access to non-royalty (ie those that DEC doesn't pay: > someone else a royalty on) DEC products on that machine. >   . Ahhh... I kind of figured something like that.  F PATHWORKS for OpenVMS and Advanced Server for OpenVMS are both royalty	 products.    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 09:01:04 -07002 From: abhijitbhosale@hotmail.com (Abhijit Bhosale)D Subject: CMS-E-NORESERVATION, error reserving XYZ:[ABC.CMS_LIB]A.TXT= Message-ID: <c7d01eb4.0307300801.104c66f7@posting.google.com>    Hi, % I created cms library from one user.   And created an element in it. 1 But when other user tries to reserver same elemnt  it's giving following error.  < %CMS-E-NORESERVATION, error reserving XYZ:[ABC.CMS_LIB]A.TXT? -RMS-E-PRV, insufficient privilege or file protection violation    What privileges I should set?    Thanks,  Abhijit    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 12:04:11 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) H Subject: Re: CMS-E-NORESERVATION, error reserving XYZ:[ABC.CMS_LIB]A.TXT3 Message-ID: <20RFRUK8IMt6@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <c7d01eb4.0307300801.104c66f7@posting.google.com>, abhijitbhosale@hotmail.com (Abhijit Bhosale) writes: > Hi, ' > I created cms library from one user.   > And created an element in it. 3 > But when other user tries to reserver same elemnt  > it's giving following error. > > > %CMS-E-NORESERVATION, error reserving XYZ:[ABC.CMS_LIB]A.TXTA > -RMS-E-PRV, insufficient privilege or file protection violation  >  > What privileges I should set?   F None.  You should "fix" the file protection.  ACLs have worked for me.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:53:14 GMT - From: Mike Rechtman <michael.rechtman@hp.com> > Subject: Re: Creating an EVE or TPU Section File [OT, rather.]& Message-ID: <3F27B19E.1E482F43@hp.com>   HariHaran wrote: >  > "POWERS, John" <John.POWERS@reading.sema.slb.com> wrote in message news:<95544AF90752D211AC0300A0C9E01D32019FFA1A@reaes4.sema.co.uk>...  > > The command is > > * > > EDIT /TPU/NODISPLAY/NOINITIALIZATION -( > >      /COMMAND=SYS$EXAMPLES:EVE$BUILD > > M > > It's all described nicely in the explanatory comments at the beginning of H > > SYS$EXAMPLES:EVE$BUILD.TPU - a great read. Everything you need to do& > > to prepare your code for building. > > 
 > > Have fun!  > >  > > John > >  > > John Powers  > > SchlumbergerSema > > Messaging Solutions. > E > Hi Guys!  Many thanks for all your help.  It's all working now, ta. G > It didn't use to be as complicated as it is now, with all that master E > file and version file stuff.  No wonder it wasn't working the vague ! > way that I remembered it.  Hari 5 Sorry, can't resist this while on the subject of TPU: F (There's a web-site whose name escapes my memory at present, with lots of this  kind of stuff)   -----<start cut here>----- !  ! TPU command file. - ! Usage: $ EDIT/TPU/NOSECTIO/COMMAND=BEER.TPU  ! $ PROCEDURE count_down( bottle_count )   LOCAL new_count   !   new_count := bottle_count - 1 ;   B   MESSAGE( FAO("!AS of beer on the wall",number(bottle_count)) ) ;6   MESSAGE( FAO("!AS of beer",number(bottle_count)) ) ;6   MESSAGE( FAO("Take !0UL!1%Cit!%Eone!%F down, pass it around",bottle_count) ) ;      IF (new_count > 0)   THENA     MESSAGE( FAO("!AS of beer on the wall",number(new_count)) ) ;      MESSAGE( "" ) ;      count_down( new_count ) ;    ELSE     ! End recursion 0     MESSAGE( "Go to the store for some more" ) ;   ENDIF;  ENDPROCEDURE;   PROCEDURE number( x )  LOCAL a, b, s, s1, s2, t   a := x/10 ;  b := x - (10*a) ;    s1 := tens( a, b ) ; s2 := units( a, b ) ;  IF ( (a > 1) AND (b <> 0) )  THEN   s := FAO("!AS !AS",s1,s2 ) ; ELSE   s := s1 + s2 ;
   IF (x=1)   THEN      s := "Only one"	   ENDIF ;  ENDIF ;    t := FAO("!0UL bottle!%S",x) ;   number := s + t ;    ENDPROCEDURE ;   PROCEDURE tens( x, y ) Local s    CASE x FROM 0 to 9         [9] : s := "ninety" ;          [8] : s := "eighty" ;          [7] : s := "seventy" ;         [6] : s := "sixty" ;         [5] : s := "fifty" ;         [4] : s := "forty" ;         [3] : s := "thirty" ;          [2] : s := "twenty" ; 
         [1] :          CASE y FROM 0 to 9!           [9] : s := "nineteen" ; !           [8] : s := "eighteen" ; "           [7] : s := "seventeen" ;            [6] : s := "sixteen" ;            [5] : s := "fifteen" ;            [4] : s := "forteen" ;!           [3] : s := "thirteen" ;            [2] : s := "twelve" ;            [1] : s := "eleven" ;            [0] : s := "ten" ;         ENDCASE          [0] : s := "" ; 	 ENDCASE ;  tens := s ;  ENDPROCEDURE   PROCEDURE units( x, y )  Local s    CASE y FROM 0 to 9   [9] : s := "nine" ;    [8] : s := "eight" ;   [7] : s := "seven" ;   [6] : s := "six" ;   [5] : s := "five" ;    [4] : s := "four" ;    [3] : s := "three" ;   [2] : s := "two" ;   [1] : s := "one" ;   [0] : s := "" ; 	 ENDCASE ;   
 IF (x = 1) THEN    s := "" ; ENDIF;   units := s ; ENDPROCEDURE         ! Main program:    count_down( 99 ) ;  % MESSAGE("-----------------Mike R.-"); 
 MESSAGE(" ");    EXIT ;    -----<end snip here>-----           --  E --------------------------------------------------------------------- E Usual disclaimer: All opinions are mine alone, perhaps not even that. ? Mike Rechtman                            *rechtman@tzora.co.il* F Kibbutz Tzor'a.                          Voice (home): 972-2-9908337  B   "20% of a job takes 80% of the time, the rest takes another 80%"E ---------------------------------------------------------------------  -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----  Version: 3.1: GCM/CS d(-)pu s:+>:- a++ C++ U-- L-- W++ N++ K? w--- V+++$6 PS+ PE-- t 5? X- tv-- b+ DI+ D-- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:31:03 +0100 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> W Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and  PowerfulPerformance 0 Message-ID: <bg8rs7$926$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Greg Cagle wrote:  > JF Mezei wrote:  > + >> Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:  >>? >>> If you think back to the battles over the CPQ-HP merger you A >>> will also remember that Walter Hewlett one of your main board > >>> members was clear that systems did not make HP money hence@ >>> his opposition to merging with another company that produced >>> computer systems.  >> >> >>I >> My recollection was that Hewlett was opposed because the merger would   >> have J >> made HP focus too much on the unprofitable wintel market and not on the. >> profitable enterprise and printer business. >  > @ > Right. Walter's opposition was quite different than Andrew has > characterized. >   7 How so, PC's are computer systems. HP didn't make money 1 on them neither did it make money consistently on  Enteprise servers either.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:16:23 GMT 9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> W Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and  PowerfulPerformance 1 Message-ID: <H3TVa.1118$2g3.229@news.cpqcorp.net>   K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> ; wrote in message news:bg8rs7$926$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...    > 9 > How so, PC's are computer systems. HP didn't make money 3 > on them neither did it make money consistently on  > Enteprise servers either.  >   L All Sun makes is computers, and they haven't really made money since the 4thG fiscal quarter of '02 (it's hard to divide up this quarters $12 million H dollar profit among all your shareholders).  In the last 2 years, you'veI lost 98cents/share.  Excluding *all* of the loss from fiscal Q2 (in which B you still lost some $250 million) you still lost something like 22" cents/share over the last 2 years.  K At this point, it isn't a question of consistantly making money at Sun, but D consistanly breaking even, or even moving in the same direction when comparing fiscal quarters.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:35:34 +0100 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> Y Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful  Performance  0 Message-ID: <bg8s4n$97u$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Greg Cagle wrote: * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > = >> And your very detailed attempts to guess what Suns systems ? >> business made or lost last quarter does not detract from the = >> fact that HPQ's systems businesses have never consistently  >> made a profit.  >  > : > Really. How can you possibly know that? Are you an ex-HP> > employee? Somehow I doubt that. Please cite your references.? > Also please take into account that HP/HPQ's system businesses ? > have been around for a long time, longer than Sun has been in / > existence. Possibly before you were born 8^).  >     - Read Carly mission statement when she joined.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:41:24 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>W Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance 8 Message-ID: <itlfivk2gi2ema0k49d1127fb1rrrra25i@4ax.com>  I On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:59:20 +0000 (UTC), david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:   b >In article <d4b3ivoq7ksi3li3bvc6g5cokst5lscn8a@4ax.com>, jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> writes:K >>On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:10:28 +0000 (UTC), david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:  >> >>L >>I think I've already stated this before, but imo, the initial IA64 is moreK >>in the EV3-EV4 stages, while the most recent, soon-to-be-released is more  >>in the EV4-EV5 stages. >>D >>In any case, it's very, very early and the business environment isI >>completely different than when Alpha first came out.  At Alpha release, M >>expensive, large servers were still more common than cheaper Wintel servers H >>for business apps.  I don't think you can easily discount IA64 at this >>early stage. >> > K >But thats the point this isn't early for IA64. Merced was supposed to be a O >PRODUCTION system !!!! The reason it was so slow is because it was so so late. J >We are now on the second chip generation - Mckinley ie we are NOW at the  >equivalent of EV5.  >   H Well, this isn't an exact science of measurement.  I don't totally agreeD with this assessment, but I can see some aspects that make it valid.  F It has taken them quite a long time to develop,  It's quite a bit moreJ complex than Alpha design, so maybe that's reasonable slippage, maybe not.E If they're committed to it, though, then I should still make a viable - product.  It's still too early to tell, imho.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:03:24 GMT 9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> W Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance 1 Message-ID: <wTSVa.1117$LL3.989@news.cpqcorp.net>   K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> ; wrote in message news:bg8s34$97u$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...  > jlsue wrote:I > > On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:09:09 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 2 > > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: > >  > > > > >>There is a very big difference between not making a profit? > >>in one quarter or even a couple of years and never making a  > >>profit.  > >  > > J > > Well, right now almost nobody's making a profit, so singling out HP is > > disingenuous.  > >  > 4 > So why not post that point each time Rob or Freddy5 > bashes Sun ? The fact that you havn't so far rather  > serves to destroy your point.  >   K In the latest quarter, we made 22 cents/share.  In the previous quarter, we E made 24 cents, in the previous one to that, we made 20 cents.  Back 3 L quarters ago, we took a write off and lost 67 cents.  The previous 6 quarets before that we made profits.  F If you want to adjust the quarters to roughly match Sun's fiscal year,L you'll find we lost about 1 cent a share with the 67 cent loss in what wouldI have been the first quarter.  In each other quarter we are either roughly  flat, or up substantially.   And we pay a dividend.  J Is the enterprise business in a down cycle?  Yes.  But after we finish ourL transition to a single platform architecture, there won't be a profitabilityK problem.  Plus the advantage of being in a number of businesses that aren't K in the same down cycle means that we have the ability to position ourselves * for the turnaround - without losing money.  5 > But I am refering to historical lack of performance 5 > rather than the present. Carly was brought on board 2 > to restructure HP because its systems businesses2 > were underperforming. This pre-dates the current > downturn.  >   8 That is, let's not talk about Sun - let's talk about HP.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:55:11 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> W Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance D Message-ID: <PLSVa.363$4UE.175@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  3 "jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message 2 news:itlfivk2gi2ema0k49d1127fb1rrrra25i@4ax.com... > C > It has taken them quite a long time to develop,  It's quite a bit  moreA > complex than Alpha design, so maybe that's reasonable slippage, 
 maybe not.@ > If they're committed to it, though, then I should still make a viable/ > product.  It's still too early to tell, imho.     E And what exactly is the backup plan for VMS users should IA64 hit the   fan? Windows 2003 Server on AMD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:34:43 +0100 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> Y Subject: Re: D.H. Brown: EV7 AlphaServers Deliver Enhanced RAS and Powerful Performance P 0 Message-ID: <bg8s34$97u$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   jlsue wrote:G > On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:09:09 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 0 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: >  > < >>There is a very big difference between not making a profit= >>in one quarter or even a couple of years and never making a 	 >>profit.  >  > H > Well, right now almost nobody's making a profit, so singling out HP is > disingenuous.  >   2 So why not post that point each time Rob or Freddy3 bashes Sun ? The fact that you havn't so far rather  serves to destroy your point.   3 But I am refering to historical lack of performance 3 rather than the present. Carly was brought on board 0 to restructure HP because its systems businesses0 were underperforming. This pre-dates the current	 downturn.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:31:18 GMT - From: Mike Rechtman <michael.rechtman@hp.com> % Subject: Re: duplicating system disks & Message-ID: <3F27AC7A.23BFCCF2@hp.com>   Z wrote: > . > Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:M > :> : (BACKUP/IMAGE/IGNORE=INTER SYS$SYSDEVICE: {target disk})   This way, I  > :> ...S > :> : Compaq/HP support is fine with this method since we have all of the required  > :>E > :> They're fine with backing up the system disk while the system is $ > :> running with /ignore=interlock? > :> > :> I don't think so. > @ > :       Sure.  You do want to back up your system disk between  > :       semi-annual downtimes. > D > HP support in my region tells me booting to CD and then backing upD > the system disk is the only way to be sure the backup is reliable. > 4 > Anything less allows for possible file corruption.3                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   4 Very unlikely, but I have actually seen this happen.G The symptom was on the restored system disk usernames alphabetically up A to "S" could log in, Usernames starting "T" to "Z" could not. The  symptom B was fixed by *carefully* copying a new SYSUAF.DAT, after which the customer0 consented to a stand-alone backup and restore...  E I remember spending some time finding out why only *some* users could  login.   > D > If your app is so critical that it can't be down, and it's runningB > on a non-redundant system architecture, you've got more problems > than making backup tapes.  > C > If it is on a redundant system arch., then you can bring down one  > system to back it up.    --  E --------------------------------------------------------------------- E Usual disclaimer: All opinions are mine alone, perhaps not even that. ? Mike Rechtman                            *rechtman@tzora.co.il* F Kibbutz Tzor'a.                          Voice (home): 972-2-9908337  B   "20% of a job takes 80% of the time, the rest takes another 80%"E ---------------------------------------------------------------------  -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----  Version: 3.1: GCM/CS d(-)pu s:+>:- a++ C++ U-- L-- W++ N++ K? w--- V+++$6 PS+ PE-- t 5? X- tv-- b+ DI+ D-- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:49:16 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>% Subject: Re: duplicating system disks 8 Message-ID: <86qfiv4hhlfhmt98t4rg54qmgvaei4ju23@4ax.com>  H On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 01:53:04 GMT, "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> wrote:     > L >Yep.  We had a discussion with our Platinum suport TAMS and the EngineeringM >group recently about Backup/ignore=interlock.  The DR folks where wanting to J >know some specifics about file time stamps when using the backup command.H >Upon recieving theanswer from engineering that you are probably talkingJ >about.  I asked specifically about using it to CLONE an OS disk.  This isL >not a prefered method for making a system backup, but it is fine for makingE >a CLONE of the OS where you are going to be changing all of the node 6 >specific data prior to bringing up a new system pack. > K >I am not trying to make a backup for backup/restore purposes.  I am mainly M >looking for static files like installed OS patches and Licenses.  Stuff that H >is not changing on the system at the time that you make the CLONE imageM >backup.  You can do a similar copy by using the HSG80 CLONE utility.  But it L >is not necessarily located in the HSG storage cabinet that you want to makeM >the new OS pack in.  So, without having to move drives between HSG80 storage # >cabinets, I use the above command.  > M >When you are dealing with a 24x7 data center, this is your best option for a  >no-downtime backup. >   I If you move all of the critical, modifiable files (sysuaf, queue database H files, rightslist, etc) off the system disk, then a on-line image backup will probably work well...  F Of course, you'll still need to copy those files in some reliable way.J Convert/share to a "backup" directory, which then gets a backup to anotherK saveset can work.  It just adds an extra step on the restore before you can 	 use them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:51:13 +0100 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>  Subject: Re: EMC on VMS 0 Message-ID: <bg8f01$4i1$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   konabear wrote: I > So Andrew, do you recommend StorageWorks storage to your Sun customers?  >  > Todd  F No we have had similar amounts of pain with StorageWorks they are bothE much of a muchness. Their only advantage being that they were cheaper  generally than EMC.    regards  Andrew Harrison  > M > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> < > wrote in message news:bg2s46$qf$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... >  >>Rob Young wrote: >>I >>>In article <bfp1im$hv9$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK  >>= > Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:  >  >>>>Rob Young wrote: >>>  >>> ' >>>>>>with black and white type answers  >>>>>  >>>>> < >>>>>Nitpicking is all you have to offer, I'm not surprised. >>>>>  >>>> >>>>Don't be an arse Rob.  >>>>: >>>>EMC's arn't fault tollerent and they do go away and if; >>>>you really want me to make you look small I can provide 3 >>>>you with plenty of examples of them going away.  >>>> >>>  >>> ' >>>Plenty?  Hah.  gunbroker.com - sure.  >>>  >>>  >>: >>The customer I used to advise lost 4 symetrix in one go. >>; >>An EMC engineer was doing a bit of proactive maintance on : >>the EMC estate which involved upgrading the microcode on> >>the machines, unfortunately the code release had a bug which >>hung the symetrix. >>7 >>We got a support call in Tokyo to tell us that one of : >>the Sun servers had failed, the customer stopped logging8 >>calls at ~the 6th machine because it was obviously not9 >>a Sun problem, they were also loging calls on their IBM  >>AIX estate at the same time. >>7 >>By the time the customer worked out what was going on 9 >>they had lost 1 of their symetrix boxes in Singapore as  >>well.  >> >>: >>The only good thing as far as the customer was concerned; >>was that they had been negociating with EMC to be able to = >>manage their own boxes, the outage tipped the deal in their 	 >>favour.  >> >> >> >>< >>>>Upgrading to a duff version of the microcode is just one; >>>>example.  Not having a mirrored write cache is another.  >>>  >>> 7 >>>The mirrored cache FUD is a good one.  Of course you @ >>>probably have a dozen public examples of cache boards blowing >>>out, right?  No.  >>>  >>= >>So is it or is it not mirrored Rob, answers in one line Rob  >>not your usual verbose BS. >> >>A >>>You are getting in on this very late.  The issue that you have B >>>your nose in here is HBVS and EMC.  If you are shadowing acrossB >>>two datacenters, losing storage isn't the problem.  The problem= >>>is bad blocks, okay?  EMC doesn't deliver bad blocks.  EMC E >>>storage doesn't go away.  (Now there is an implied "mostly" there, B >>>you are just nitpicking my friend).  AND if the storage somehowH >>>went away (datacenter outtage), you don't have filesystem corruption,@ >>>you are running VMS.  The write made it or it didn't.  If theD >>>writes are that important, they go to two different PLACES at theD >>>same time and we have 3 separate OSes performing that trick using >>>varying techniques. >>>  >>B >>What has this got to do with your completely incorrect statement> >>that EMC doesn't go away period. Its still BS whatever point/ >>in the discussion you choose to inject it in.  >>C >>As for blanket statements read your own BS first before replying.  >>	 >>Regards  >>Andrew Harrison  >> >  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 07:49:32 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Firewall for VMS 3 Message-ID: <Tr5gbEQKVZ+n@eisner.encompasserve.org>   m In article <20030729161506.17051.qmail@gacracker.org>, Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:  > B > It certainly does... Until you run into a DoS attack or similar.  E    Andrew is the only one concerned that VMS was susceptable to a DOS E    attack.  Although I believe reports that early versions of UCX may B    have had these issues, I've never known any VMS system actuallyG    bothered by one.  And I know of several VMS systems sitting naked on     the internet ignoring them.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 07:50:28 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Firewall for VMS 3 Message-ID: <LMGMgF5CLRdB@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i In article <nbrdivsoogahj5mp0d17h1nu4eu3vh3rlk@4ax.com>, Mike Bartman <omni@foolie.omniphile.com> writes:   H > MultiNet, from Process Software, does have filtering built in, as doesH > TCPware, also from Process Software.  Lets you specify which ports are > open and to whom.   ?    A.k.a. "wrappers".  Good stuff, but not really the same as a     firewall.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:11:26 -0400 0 From: "Brian Tillman" <Tillman@sparkingwire.com> Subject: Re: HP FUDBusting$ Message-ID: <3f27ee32$1@news.si.com>  > >It would seem your VMS security experience predates V4 or so,  6 ACLs and resource identifiers apperared in V4.3, ISTR. --  I Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot com 5 Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM. D 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS 1B3 Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991 8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:40:59 +0100 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> 5 Subject: Re: IDC: HP ranks No. 1 in 2002 HPTC revenue 0 Message-ID: <bg8ouc$80r$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   David Svensson wrote:  > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bfoph3$fae$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  >  >>David Svensson wrote:  >> >>>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bfm842$gqn$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>... >>>  >>>  >>>>David Svensson wrote:  >>>> >>>> >>>>>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bfh0jr$lsd$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>... >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>>>Keith Parris wrote:  >>>>>># >>>>>>>From HP World News, July 17:  >>>>>  >>   >>A >>>>>>>"HP ranks No. 1 in 2002 high-performance computing revenue  >>>>>>> U >>>>>>>HP cited industry research firm IDC to claim it is the worldwide market leader U >>>>>>>for High Performance Technical Computing (HPTC) in 2002. IDC's "Worldwide High P >>>>>>>Performance Systems Technical Computing Census 2002" report shows that HPU >>>>>>>commands 34 percent revenue share, more than a five percentage point lead over  >>>>>>>IBM." >>>>>>> 3 >>>>>>>http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/030714/145265_1.html  >>>>>> >>>>>>G >>>>>>Shame that the 3 big DARPA contracts for HPTC systems in the HPCS A >>>>>>program have gone in a pretty even split of ~50 million per # >>>>>>company to IBM, Sun and Cray.  >>>>>  >>>>> F >>>>>I can understand that Sun and Cray are in need for help, but IBM? >>>>D >>>>Interesting Idea HP didn't get a DARPA award because they didn't
 >>>>need it !  >>>> >>>>Nice spin. >>>> >>>  >>> D >>>Yes. :) I was looking at the latest TOP500 supercomputer list andE >>>there were very few Sun and Cray machines there. On the other hand * >>>there were lots of IBM and HP machines. >> >>It gets better.  >>A >>So now your contention is that DARPA have a remit which extends B >>to trying to balance out the top500 list entries on a per vendor: >>basis by funding vendors that have a lower market share. >>E >>This is almost like traditional socialist redistribution economics.  >>C >>What a very ammusing theory I hope you didn't spend too much time  >>thinking it up.  >>	 >>Regards  >>Andrew Harrison  >  >  > :)G > Those "contracts" are mainly used to keep the US HPC industry in good G > shape. It was you who started the spin by saying it was not good that  > HP didn't got a contract.     7 So now IBM needs help !!!!!! More help than Sun or Cray 7 since DARPA actually awarded IBM slightly more than Sun 	 and Cray.   5 It gets even better. Where are you going next this is  fun.   Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:08:20 GMT % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com>  Subject: Re: Model Update Plan; Message-ID: <EEGVa.44479$7O4.1010516@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>u  / THIS$THAT <nobody@spamcop.net> wrote in messagez) news:bg6127$fd0$1@grandcanyon.binc.net...  > Bradford J. Hamilton wrote: < > >In article <bg5jop$bqg$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>, THIS$THAT <nobody@spamcop.net>
 > >writes: > >i. > >I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. >,F > The meat of it is using product install to apply the upgrade and theF > right set of patches in the right order which is considerably helped6 > by the patch summaries.  See my skeleton plan below. >S? > What I may (wrongly) be seeing as difficulties is some of theoH > preliminaries.  For instance config files.  Some will have been editedF > and saved back through a search list to the wrong place.  So a checkF > against a list of definitive locations seems needed.  Another prelimF > is the CD bootstrapping, as the CD's on the LAN rather than directly > attached.m >eG > The one query with the set of patches is XFC.  I'm upgrading from 7.3oG > to 7.3-1 and XFC is supposed to be defaulted on in 7.3.  Vcc_flags is G > 2 in current, but show memory /cache says no volumes in full XFC.  So ) > I think I need the XFC but am not sure.n > E > Perhaps others who have done upgrades before can help me improve mys > sekeleton upgrade plan below.c >t >wE > 1.  Check configuration file locations to assure their preservation  > F > 2.  Clean out scratch disk (3558222 blocks used of 14215302 on dka0) >n+ > 3.  Apply VMS 7.3-1 Alpha upgrade from CDn >u > 4.  Reboot >m% > 5.  Apply TCPIP 5.3 upgrade from CDd >c > 6.  Reboot >aA > 7.  Apply dec-axpvms-vms731_pcsi-v0100--4.pcsi-dcx_axpexe from  > 8.  Reboot >lI > 9.  Apply /save dec-axpvms-vms731_update-v0100--4.pcsi-dcx_axpexe fromk > 10. Reboot >mF > 11. Apply /save dec-axpvms-vms731_lan-v0600--4.pcsi-dcx_axpexe from > 12. Reboot >eF > 13. Apply /save dec-axpvms-vms731_rms-v0400--4.pcsi-dcx_axpexe from > 14. Reboot > H > 15. Apply /save dec-axpvms-tcpip_eco-v0503-182-4.pcsi-dcx_axpexe fromK > 16. Apply /save dec-axpvms-vms731_cdrecord-v0100--4.README, OpenVMS from(  G Here is what I did monday afternoon.  This was an upgrade of a Non-prodMI DS20.  I have another Non-Prod upgrade scheduled Thurdsday morning (GS320iL QBB), and another one friday afternoon (ES40).  Since backups are done daily6 outside of this routine, I am not including them here.   - Shutdown the application.C8 - Remove the Application startup from SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM.I (Easiest done by adding an EXIT in the file after all of the drive mountse are done) - YMMVG - Copy the OS patches from the management cluster to the OS drive beinge upgraded.  (SAN drives)e - Shutdown the cluster. < - Set Auto_action to HALT.  {necessary for Firmware upgrade) - Boot the CD.$ - Performing the actual VMS upgrade.- - Upgrade the Alphaserver Firmware {Optional}e - Autogen re-boot(s).aL - OS patch install, DFS re-install?, and add the application startup back to SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM. - Shutdown both nodes.  - Set Auto_action to RESTARTU& - Final boot to start the Application.J - Post re-boot check prior to notifying the client that the system is back up.   L Notes: total time for executing the above procedure on a 2-node DS20 cluster+ using SAN attached drives is about 2 hours.aI If I am performing firmware upgrades at the same time, I will upgrade the-F firmware on node2 while node1 is upgrading the system disk.  After theE system disk upgrade is complete, Shutdown node1, boot node 2 for it's.J Autogen re-boot, and I will Firmware upgrade node1 while that is occuring.  ( Here is my current patch list for V7.3-13  ***** UPDATE patch has superceded several patches.,C   Here is the new list of what is required.  Install in this order.j  )  G DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_PCSI-V0100--4.PCSI;1e)  DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_UPDATE-V0100--4.PCSI;1y.  (The following 4 can be applied in any order)(  DEC-AXPVMS-DNVOSIECO02-V0703-1-4.PCSI;1(  DEC-AXPVMS-TCPIP_ECO-V0503-182-4.PCSI;1&  DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_LAN-V0600--4.PCSI;1&  DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_RMS-V0400--4.PCSI;1  /  Note: logout/in after applying the PCSI patch.p    J On the VMS upgrade to 7.3-1 I think that the only real gotcha is the ODS-5. question.  We answer NO!  Leave it a VMS disk!/ You must also know what device your OS disk is.r   Log from Mondays VMS upgrade.sL > Here is the log of the upgrade that I just started.   The only real gotcha+ > here is the conversion to ODS-5 question.3 >EL > This is after shutting down the system and typing B DQAO {boot from the CD  > device} at the console prompt. > F >     **************************************************************** >iC >     You can install or upgrade the OpenVMS Alpha operating system3F >     or you can install or upgrade layered products that are included3 >     on the OpenVMS Alpha operating system CD-ROM.d >rA >     You can also execute DCL commands and procedures to performn= >     "standalone" tasks, such as backing up the system disk.7 >6) >     Please choose one of the following:y >rJ >         1)  Upgrade, install or reconfigure OpenVMS Alpha Version V7.3-1J >         2)  Display products and patches that this procedure can install= >         3)  Install or upgrade layered products and patchesd% >         4)  Show installed productsH, >         5)  Reconfigure installed products' >         6)  Remove installed products-1 >         7)  Execute DCL commands and procedures:# >         8)  Shut down this systeml >m3 > Enter CHOICE or ? for help: (1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/?) 1oA >     ***********************************************************1 >4@ >     The installation procedure will ask a series of questions. >e, >           () - encloses acceptable answers) >           [] - encloses default answers  >s; >     Type your response and press the <Return> key.  Type:v > ( >           ? - to repeat an explanation; >           ^ - to change prior input (not always possible)e7 >           Ctrl/Y - to exit the installation procedure- >- >-5 >     There are two choices for installation/upgrade:g >e@ >     Initialize - Removes all software and data files that wereC >         previously on the target disk and installs OpenVMS Alpha.i >rG >     Preserve -- Installs or Upgrades OpenVMS Alpha on the target diskg< >         and retains all other contents of the target disk. > J >    * Note: You cannot use preserve to install OpenVMS Alpha on a disk onG >         which OpenVMS VAX or any other operating system is installed.n >o6 > Do you want to INITIALIZE or to PRESERVE? [PRESERVE] >  >:A >     You must enter the device name for the target disk on whicho& >     OpenVMS Alpha will be installed. > 6 > Enter device name for target disk: (? for choices) ? >.G > Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free, > Trans Mnt0H >  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks > Count CntE0 > DAD0:                   Online               0H > DQA0:                   Mounted wrtlck       0  ALPHA0731         7785 > 89   10 > DQA1:                   Online               00 > DQB0:                   Online               10 > DQB1:                   Online               10 > DVA0:                   Online               00 > $1$DGA735:          ()  Online               00 > $1$DGA736:          ()  Online               00 > $1$DGA737:          ()  Online               0 >E >y> > Enter device name for target disk: (? for choices) $1$dga735 > ) >     $1$DGA735: is now labeled ALPHASYS.o >P0 > Do you want to keep this label? (Yes/No) [Yes] >.H >     The  target  system disk is currently at On-Disk Structure Level 2I >     (ODS-2).  It can be converted to On-Disk Structure Level 5 (ODS-5).  >     (? for more information) >oG > Do you want to convert the target system disk to ODS-5? (Yes/No/?) no  >r3 >     OpenVMS Alpha will be upgraded on $1$DGA735:.T >e >aA > Will this system be a member of an OpenVMS Cluster? (Yes/No) noi > C > Will this system be an instance in an OpenVMS Galaxy? (Yes/No) no  >  >gF >     If necessary, the following products will be upgraded along with# >     the OpenVMS operating system.e >o. >         o DECwindows Motif for OpenVMS Alpha >f) >         o DECnet-Plus for OpenVMS Alpha; > - >         o DECnet Phase IV for OpenVMS Alpha). >         o Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS >, >sI >     If you want to add or delete these products, you can do so later inG> >     the upgrade by answering "NO" to the following question: >G= >         "Do you want the defaults for all product options?"e >s > D >     DECwindows Motif for OpenVMS Alpha V1.2-6 is already installed2 >     on your system.  An upgrade is not required. >, > 3 >     Version V7.3 of DECnet-Plus for OpenVMS Alphab >     is already installed. > >     You can keep the installed version or upgrade to V7.3-1. >  >E2 > Do you want to upgrade to V7.3-1? (Yes/No) [YES] > H >     DECnet Phase IV for OpenVMS Alpha is not installed on your system. >     It will not be installed.C >R >e; >     Version V5.1-15 of Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS= >     is already installed. ? >     You can keep the installed version or upgrade to V5.3-18.= >i >"3 > Do you want to upgrade to V5.3-18? (Yes/No) [YES]" >t >; > L >     The installation operation can provide brief or detailed descriptions.I >     In either case, you can request the detailed descriptions by typing8 > "?". >i9 > Do you always want detailed descriptions? (Yes/No) [No]6 > * > The following product has been selected:E >     DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V7.3-1              Platform (product suite)n >  > " > Configuration phase starting ... > L > You will be asked to choose options, if any, for each selected product and > for C > any products that may be installed to satisfy software dependencyt > requirements.  >  >AB > DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V7.3-1: OpenVMS and related products Platform > 2 >     COPYRIGHT  1-AUG-2002 -- All rights reserved >i! >     Compaq Computer Corporation3 > 1 > Do you want the defaults for all options? [YES]" >") > Do you want to review the options? [NO]  >) > Execution phase starting ... >t >=; > The following products will be installed to destinations:9H >     CPQ AXPVMS CDSA V1.0-2                 DISK$ALPHASYS:[VMS$COMMON.]H >     DEC AXPVMS DECNET_OSI V7.3-1           DISK$ALPHASYS:[VMS$COMMON.]H >     DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V7.3-1              DISK$ALPHASYS:[VMS$COMMON.]H >     DEC AXPVMS TCPIP V5.3-18               DISK$ALPHASYS:[VMS$COMMON.]H >     DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.3-1                  DISK$ALPHASYS:[VMS$COMMON.]  K After this it lists the stuff that it removed from the previous version....s   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:30:36 +0000 (UTC)-$ From: THIS$THAT <nobody@spamcop.net> Subject: Re: Model Update Plan/ Message-ID: <bg8h9s$4k5$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>  Keywords: Upgrade-   This morning Mike Naime wrote: >- > [... ]L >After this it lists the stuff that it removed from the previous version....  D Mike thanks for that; almost as good as loooking over your shoulder.  A Hope noone minds if I encourage others to post (potentially long)rC transcripts of complete upgrade sessions.  Reading over them is the$9 nearest thing to a rehearsal, and practice makes perfect.z   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:54:46 +0100u* From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>4 Subject: Re: Moving cluster whilst maintaing quorum.' Message-ID: <bg810m$46e$1@lore.csc.com>    Michael Moroney wrote: > - > JF Mezei <jfmezei.nospam@istop.com> writes:  >  > >Michael Moroney wrote:cL > >> node has one vote and the QD has one vote.  EXPECTED_VOTES=3 and quorumO > >> is 2 in this case.  The cluster will survive the loss of any single votingu > >> component, but not two  > O > >Unless you give the surviving node 2 votes before disconnecting and when you O > >shutdown the other node, you REMOVE NODE to force quorum to be recalculated.C > J > Not necesary, as when one node is shut down, there will still be 2 votesG > (drive and other node) which means the cluster is up since the quorumoG > is 2.  Using REMOVE_NODE is good but in this case doesn't really helpMK > since the EXPECTED_VOTES would go from 3 to 2 and quorum will still be 2.D  F No, REMOVE_NODE is a special case in a cluster when a node is shutting down.g  G To clarify here. REMOVE_NODE does the effect of a SET CLUSTER/EXPECTED,uA but this is AFTER it's own vote has been removed as the OPCCRASH n% enables itself to run without quorum..  7 Here are some relevant extracts of OPCCRASH (comments):k  B                       000001A4	   4677 ; Allow the process running, OPCCRASH to run without requiring the QUORUMC                       000001A4	   4678 ; capability.  If this nodesq1 loses quorum it will still complete the shutdown.    ...lF                       0000024A	   5866 	BSBW	GET_FLAG		; get the value of OPC$CLUSTER_REMOVEaG                       0000024D	   5867 	MOVL	R0,R7			; If LBS, removingt node: reduce quorumo  t ...oB                       00000262	   5873 	BRB	200$			; Do quorum adj and/or lckmgr shutdown  C This happens, quorum would and can drop from 2 to 1. There has been,G discussion here before of the undesired effects of using REMOVE_NODE in E the context of SHUTDOWN.COM, but in OPCCRASH its use it pretty clear.   B Comments in the code indicate that OPCCRASH did not always work asG advertised, but builds from 1998 should do as described in the commentsR above. -- u? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences> nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:36:06 +0100t* From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>4 Subject: Re: Moving cluster whilst maintaing quorum.' Message-ID: <bg83e5$4fa$1@lore.csc.com>    JF Mezei wrote:n >  > Other question:  > M > You you have node 1 , node 2 and DSSI disk array all connected together. IfoM > you not only shutdown node 2, but also power it off completely, wouldn't itn9 > then be safe to unplug the DSSI connector from node 2 ?a > P > In such a setup, would node 1 and node 2 each have a terminator with the disksP > in the middle ? So when you disconnect node 2, you would have to make sure you6 > apply a terminator to the disks as fast as possible.  A DSSI busses are protected by fuses. The green indicators show theuF health. These are 1.5 amp fast blow (pico) fuses. Generally both sides> of the bus are powered, and you could lose one and still work.  C Looking at a KFESB, I can't see the PICO fuse. A VAX such as a 4000x@ series has a PICO fuse in the main bulkhead panel, a light greenF coloured thing looking a bit like a resistor with bulging ends in leadD sockets. I don't know if there are fuses in other DSSI interfaces or devices.  D Plugging in a terminator as fast as possible isn't the answer, quickB blow fuses go in the order of microseconds. Perhaps I'm being overE cautious, but I've blown enough fuses that I carry a spare set aroundd9 with me. DSSI busses are less forgiving than SCSI busses.h   -- a? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesw nclews at csc dot comh   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:16:13 +0100i* From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>4 Subject: Re: Moving cluster whilst maintaing quorum.' Message-ID: <bg899s$64d$1@lore.csc.com>    JF Mezei wrote:s > O > What happens to quorum if a quorum disk goes into mount verification ? Is arerL > the votes held by the drive lost or maintained during mount verification ?  A The quorum disk is accessed using low-level IO every QDSKINTERVALtD seconds by each system which is acting as a quorum disk server (i.e.F direct (local) connection). It behaves as a virtual voting member, butD it is a system or systems that contribute the votes of the [trusted]B disk. The name quorum disk can be misleading, it does not imply itE grants quorum, it only contributes to it if the conditions are right.-  E If a READ of the file does not compare (i.e. there is a change in thesF file), then the quorum disk vote server will discount the votes of theC quorum disk, it will no longer contribute votes to the cluster (notDF trustworthy). The effect of this depends on if the votes of the quorumF disk are required by the cluster to maintain quorum, or if the cluster9 can maintain quorum without the votes of the quorum disk.   F What causes a change of the contents [of the quorum disk file] is whenG the quorum disk watching system undergoes a reconfiguration event. ThatsB is when any virtual circuit state changes*, the system detecting aH virtual circuit change triggers a whole cluster reconfiguration, in turnE causing the updating the contents of the file. The change in contentsHG means that it must have 4 consecutive reads without changing before itse9 votes can be recounted towards the quorum of the cluster.f  / * Not the only reason a reconfiguration occurs.   E It does not matter if the disk is mounted or not to be a quorum disk,wD however it is likely that whatever caused a mount verification, willH probably interfere with the successful reading and writing of the quorum: file, so the effect is pretty much a symptom, not a cause.  C (I've slightly simplified the explanation, gory detail in the usuals places). -- a? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesu nclews at csc dot comu   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:51:23 +0000 (UTC).7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)t4 Subject: Re: Moving cluster whilst maintaing quorum.( Message-ID: <bg8bfr$ncj$1@pcls4.std.com>  , Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]> writes:  P >> >Unless you give the surviving node 2 votes before disconnecting and when youP >> >shutdown the other node, you REMOVE NODE to force quorum to be recalculated. >> fK >> Not necesary, as when one node is shut down, there will still be 2 votessH >> (drive and other node) which means the cluster is up since the quorumH >> is 2.  Using REMOVE_NODE is good but in this case doesn't really helpL >> since the EXPECTED_VOTES would go from 3 to 2 and quorum will still be 2.  G >No, REMOVE_NODE is a special case in a cluster when a node is shuttingy >down.  H >To clarify here. REMOVE_NODE does the effect of a SET CLUSTER/EXPECTED,B >but this is AFTER it's own vote has been removed as the OPCCRASH & >enables itself to run without quorum.  F That is true, but in the case of the original post, the expected votesI will go from 3 to 2 (surviving node+quorum disk), and QUORUM will go fromuE 2 to 2.  So in that specific case, it doesn't help.  But it is a goodl# idea to always specify REMOVE_NODE.e -- i -Mike    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:15:42 +0100e* From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>4 Subject: Re: Moving cluster whilst maintaing quorum.' Message-ID: <bg8g9s$8dr$1@lore.csc.com>-   Michael Moroney wrote: > . > Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]> writes: >   J > >To clarify here. REMOVE_NODE does the effect of a SET CLUSTER/EXPECTED,C > >but this is AFTER it's own vote has been removed as the OPCCRASHf( > >enables itself to run without quorum. > H > That is true, but in the case of the original post, the expected votesK > will go from 3 to 2 (surviving node+quorum disk), and QUORUM will go fromtG > 2 to 2.  So in that specific case, it doesn't help.  But it is a good % > idea to always specify REMOVE_NODE.a  > Yes you're right, I'd missed that detail :o|  I did an Andrew.  ! Secret weapon number 3 then, IPC.i  D Lose the quorum disk, halt your system, invoke IPC, a quick Q, Bob's your uncle.d   -- h? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Scienceso nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 06:50:19 -0700$ From: david.latimer@csf.co.uk (Dave)4 Subject: Re: Moving cluster whilst maintaing quorum.= Message-ID: <a797d716.0307300550.4d5990d8@posting.google.com>   E Hopefully you'll already have MSCP serving enabled?  If not, when you0A move one node and cluster via the network, you may have a problemu mounting the disks.g  B The safest way will likely be to shutdown and power off the entireC cluster, then remove one node and one storage array, restarting theEB remaining one if its required, minimising your downtime.  Once the: first move is done and all is working, then move the other
 node/storage.e  F Problem is where to put the QD, as you will lose this at some point toF the remaining 'running' node, either in the first move, or the second.C  Is this a mute point, though, as when you become a network clusteri@ (albeit temporarily), QD becomes ineffective as you won't have a? direct path to it from the networked node. Also, you'll have tomD reconfigure to be NI clustered for this move strategy to work as theD DSSI will no longer be available as a cluster interconnect while the systems are seperated.   regardsy Dave  Y Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message news:<bg83e5$4fa$1@lore.csc.com>...a > JF Mezei wrote:u > >o > > Other question:e > > O > > You you have node 1 , node 2 and DSSI disk array all connected together. IfaO > > you not only shutdown node 2, but also power it off completely, wouldn't it ; > > then be safe to unplug the DSSI connector from node 2 ?n > > R > > In such a setup, would node 1 and node 2 each have a terminator with the disksR > > in the middle ? So when you disconnect node 2, you would have to make sure you8 > > apply a terminator to the disks as fast as possible. > C > DSSI busses are protected by fuses. The green indicators show the H > health. These are 1.5 amp fast blow (pico) fuses. Generally both sides@ > of the bus are powered, and you could lose one and still work. > E > Looking at a KFESB, I can't see the PICO fuse. A VAX such as a 4000 B > series has a PICO fuse in the main bulkhead panel, a light greenH > coloured thing looking a bit like a resistor with bulging ends in leadF > sockets. I don't know if there are fuses in other DSSI interfaces or
 > devices. > F > Plugging in a terminator as fast as possible isn't the answer, quickD > blow fuses go in the order of microseconds. Perhaps I'm being overG > cautious, but I've blown enough fuses that I carry a spare set around ; > with me. DSSI busses are less forgiving than SCSI busses.x   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:27:17 GMTq# From: "John N." <JNixon@cfl.rr.com>o1 Subject: Need recommendations for a new tape silo": Message-ID: <ptRVa.1435$On2.98802@twister.tampabay.rr.com>  G We are replacing our old STK 9714 DLT  SCSI tape library.  We have been G working with a new STK L700 with SDLT 160/320 tape drives connected ouriK Fibre Channel. This is not working out well and we are finding that Supporth- is limited, especially as it pertains to VMS.t  K We are now beginning to evaluate other Fibre Channle Tape Libraries for use G with our VS systems.  Does anyone have nay words of advice, or words of J caution?  Is the HP ESL 9595 a good system?  At least HP couldn't say they don't support it.p  J We want a silo that will hold around 600 cartridges.  Future expandabilityG would be nice.  It must be supported under VMS, and it should be "FibreeG Channel" friendly.  We are running VMS V7.3-1.  We are using MTI"s Tape F Control and Oasis, but we will probably be replacing Oasis for another Robotic utility.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:08:31 -0400H8 From: Jim Agnew - VCU/MCV Neurosurgery <jpagnew@vcu.edu>5 Subject: Re: Need recommendations for a new tape silot' Message-ID: <3F27ED7F.20293CB6@vcu.edu>d  G dunno if Contemporary Cybernetics will fill your bill, we've had one oftC their drives for years w/o a hiccup.. (ok, does a fan count?? ;-p )a   jimf   "John N." wrote: > I > We are replacing our old STK 9714 DLT  SCSI tape library.  We have beenmI > working with a new STK L700 with SDLT 160/320 tape drives connected ouroM > Fibre Channel. This is not working out well and we are finding that Supporti/ > is limited, especially as it pertains to VMS.k > M > We are now beginning to evaluate other Fibre Channle Tape Libraries for use-I > with our VS systems.  Does anyone have nay words of advice, or words ofrL > caution?  Is the HP ESL 9595 a good system?  At least HP couldn't say they > don't support it.e > L > We want a silo that will hold around 600 cartridges.  Future expandabilityI > would be nice.  It must be supported under VMS, and it should be "Fibre I > Channel" friendly.  We are running VMS V7.3-1.  We are using MTI"s TapehH > Control and Oasis, but we will probably be replacing Oasis for another > Robotic utility.     -- nF "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship of the Ring"  F "I try not to be right any more than necessary". -- Larry Wall, author of the Perl Language   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:56:58 -0600 6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd-@-alum-mit-edu-nospam>! Subject: Network Attached Storagen0 Message-ID: <_0RVa.21$EM4.17490@news.uswest.net>  L Anyone know of a good NAS device for VMS.  We also need to have Windows 2000/ servers and workstations be able to talk to it.b  6 VMS File format is Sequential Stream (similar to NFS).   Thanks, 
 Mike Ober.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 02:21:44 -0700$ From: sblade@spectrum-edge.com (CM-)7 Subject: Re: NEWBIE Q: How to work with a PACKAGE file?>= Message-ID: <99e9c851.0307300121.3112e782@posting.google.com>n  e Lyle West <lwww@spamnot.mninter.net> wrote in message news:<3F263EDF.18566AA7@spamnot.mninter.net>...e > CM- wrote: > >  > > Hi All,h > > : > > What are the commands for unpacking the .PACKAGE file? > > 5 > > ... what are the commands to compile the .c file?u > >  > E > Andy Harper's King College archive have .PACKAGE files as VMS_SHAREl
 > archives...a > 8 > $! ------------------ CUT HERE -----------------------1 > $ v='f$verify(f$trnlnm("SHARE_UNPACK_VERIFY"))'h > $! > $! This archive created: > $!  Name : AXP-DRIVER-EXAMPLEi3 > $!  By   : Andy Harper <udaa055@elm.cc.kcl.ac.uk>S$ > $!  Date : 17-JUN-1993 17:25:08.12I > $!  Using: VMS_SHARE 8.4, (C) 1993 Andy Harper, Kings College London UKe >  . >  . > > > $! TO UNPACK THIS SHARE FILE, CONCATENATE ALL PARTS IN ORDER4 > $! AND EXECUTE AS A COMMAND PROCEDURE  (  @name  ) > $!; > $! THE FOLLOWING FILE(S) WILL BE CREATED AFTER UNPACKING:m1 > $!       1. [.AXP-DRIVER-EXAMPLE]DRIVER.NOTES;1 1 > $!       2. [.AXP-DRIVER-EXAMPLE]KMDRIVER.COM;1n1 > $!       3. [.AXP-DRIVER-EXAMPLE]KMDRIVER.MAR;1 7 > $!       4. [.AXP-DRIVER-EXAMPLE]KMDRIVER_ALPHA.COM;1> >  > So to unpack file... > $ create /dir [.tmp] > $ rename/log *.package [.tmp]u > $ set def [.tmp]7 > $ @zzz.package  (replace zzz with appropriate string)h > F > There may be a build.com ,compile.com or read.me file in the archive. > which will build the exe or show what to do.  C Thx Lyle. I was looking for the command procedure syntax. The @namebF was the answer I was looking for. However, if I may ask, what does the$ first three commands meant actually?   TIA.   CM-d   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Jul 2003 18:55:08 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)i Subject: Re: NT Clusters= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0307291755.7278a249@posting.google.com>o  Z JF Mezei <jfmezei.nospam@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3F26BEB7.9A22462B@istop.com>...5 > What clustering interconnects does NT now support ?    Heartbeat: LAN Storage: SCSI and Fibre Channel   G > Or is this "clustering" simply "networking" with applications sendings: > transactions to a backup site over a simple TCPIP link ? > J > Having more details on the level of connections between nodes would help1 > evaluate what type of "cluster" this really is.-  D I highly recommend reading Ken Moreau's article "A Survey of Cluster: Technologies" from V2 of the OpenVMS Technical Journal, at4 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/index.html  @ For folks familiar with VMS clusters, some solutions labelled as= "clusters" seem pretty primitive to us.  But folks stuck on aaE particular platform have to make the best of what's available on thats	 platform.n  E Windows clusters are "Multi-System View" (they look like a collectionlB of separate systems from the outside, and also from the inside; inF terms of system management, for example, there is no sharing of system disks).s  C Windows clusters are "availibility" clusters of the flavor known as ? "failover" clusters, with heartbeat over the LAN used to detect0A failures and to trigger failover from one node to another.  (I'vejE heard some disparagingly call them "fallover" clusters, based on whatrA they reportedly do sometimes instead of failing over as desired.),  E For failover to work, you need storage that can be accessed from moreoE than one system (but it is never "shared", that is, with simultaneousrE access by multiple nodes at once).  For failover between sites, you'dhB have to use an extended Fibre Channel SAN as your 'shared' storage
 interconnect.l  B Windows clusters as of the 2003 version officially support up to 8A nodes, up from 4 in the 2000 version (though you would rarely see:C anything but 2-node clusters in the field, I'm told), and do have a > Quorum scheme.  Despite Digital having written and provided toD Microsoft a Distributed Lock Manager and a Cluster File System alongB with the team of experts who wrote them, these features are not in: Windows clusters.  (Casting pearls before swine, I guess.)  A Because storage cannot be shared simultaneously between differents? nodes, scalability is nil, since for a given application you'reyF limited to the capacity of a single node, and gain no scalability fromB clustering.  So these cannot be classed as "scalability" clusters.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:57:13 GMT % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com>- Subject: Re: NT Clusters; Message-ID: <tmHVa.44695$7O4.1017335@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>e  < Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0307291755.7278a249@posting.google.com...o6 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.nospam@istop.com> wrote in message% news:<3F26BEB7.9A22462B@istop.com>... 7 > > What clustering interconnects does NT now support ?  >> > Heartbeat: LAN! > Storage: SCSI and Fibre Channele >aI > > Or is this "clustering" simply "networking" with applications sendinge< > > transactions to a backup site over a simple TCPIP link ? > > L > > Having more details on the level of connections between nodes would help3 > > evaluate what type of "cluster" this really is.h >-F > I highly recommend reading Ken Moreau's article "A Survey of Cluster< > Technologies" from V2 of the OpenVMS Technical Journal, at6 > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/index.html > B > For folks familiar with VMS clusters, some solutions labelled as? > "clusters" seem pretty primitive to us.  But folks stuck on arG > particular platform have to make the best of what's available on that  > platform.> >hG > Windows clusters are "Multi-System View" (they look like a collection D > of separate systems from the outside, and also from the inside; inH > terms of system management, for example, there is no sharing of system	 > disks).  > E > Windows clusters are "availibility" clusters of the flavor known asnA > "failover" clusters, with heartbeat over the LAN used to detectDC > failures and to trigger failover from one node to another.  (I've G > heard some disparagingly call them "fallover" clusters, based on whatuC > they reportedly do sometimes instead of failing over as desired.)t >oG > For failover to work, you need storage that can be accessed from moretG > than one system (but it is never "shared", that is, with simultaneousdG > access by multiple nodes at once).  For failover between sites, you'd>D > have to use an extended Fibre Channel SAN as your 'shared' storage > interconnect.d >oD > Windows clusters as of the 2003 version officially support up to 8C > nodes, up from 4 in the 2000 version (though you would rarely see E > anything but 2-node clusters in the field, I'm told), and do have aa@ > Quorum scheme.  Despite Digital having written and provided toF > Microsoft a Distributed Lock Manager and a Cluster File System alongD > with the team of experts who wrote them, these features are not in< > Windows clusters.  (Casting pearls before swine, I guess.) >nC > Because storage cannot be shared simultaneously between differentuA > nodes, scalability is nil, since for a given application you're H > limited to the capacity of a single node, and gain no scalability fromD > clustering.  So these cannot be classed as "scalability" clusters.  J I have 4 Compaq clusters using space on my SAN.  Keith is right.  Only one1 of the "Cluster Members" can use a LUN at a time.r  G Twice in the last 2 years, we have had the quorum file get trashed. ThetL winders (I'll just grab any storage that I can see at boot time) systems hadL overwritten the disk signatures.  The first time, It took me about 3-4 hoursI to prove to our NT guys that it was not a SAN problem.  They blamed it onnJ SAN configuration changes that they thought might be occuring at the time.J The second time they knew what happened, and it took them about 2 hours toI restore the required cluster files from tape and re-cover.  InterestinglyeF enough, This corruption can still occur even if you are using a directB attached storage array and do not have any SAN switches inbetween.   Mike   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:53:47 GMTe& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: OpenVms Backup 8 Message-ID: <iaqfivk352jcuvgq4l6a83qosj1bac57sg@4ax.com>  I On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:42:45 +0000 (UTC), david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:i  c >In article <I5nVa.43473$7O4.945732@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> writes:e >> >>M >>Have you looked at the EVA?  It has a snapshot capability that we are using  >>for our enterprise backups.  >> >t& >Hardware solutions ==> lots of money. >aL >The software snapshot solution  would have been usable on existing systems. >h  I But we don't know how much the software solution would have cost, so it'sC" not clear which is more expensive.  I On the EVA5000,  Business Copy for 2TB lists around $21K... 4TB at around K $26K.  And the BC operating system-level media (unlimited clients) to batch0% the snapshots only costs around $500.p  J Quite a bit less than what the snapshot firmware and EVM would cost on the HSG-based storage solution.4  K I can't speak to whether the $26,500 (list price) is too much for the valuei you'd get, though.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:25:37 +0000 (UTC), From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: OpenVms Backupw) Message-ID: <bg8v2h$bhh$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   a In article <iaqfivk352jcuvgq4l6a83qosj1bac57sg@4ax.com>, jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> writes:(J >On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:42:45 +0000 (UTC), david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >nd >>In article <I5nVa.43473$7O4.945732@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> writes: >>>s >>>dN >>>Have you looked at the EVA?  It has a snapshot capability that we are using >>>for our enterprise backups. >>>n >>' >>Hardware solutions ==> lots of money.d >>M >>The software snapshot solution  would have been usable on existing systems.y >> >rJ >But we don't know how much the software solution would have cost, so it's# >not clear which is more expensive.l >   P However unless it was a Royalty product (ie included someone else's technology) N that wouldn't have mattered to us since we would have got it for "free" under 
 DECCAMPUS.    J >On the EVA5000,  Business Copy for 2TB lists around $21K... 4TB at aroundL >$26K.  And the BC operating system-level media (unlimited clients) to batch& >the snapshots only costs around $500. >rK >Quite a bit less than what the snapshot firmware and EVM would cost on thep >HSG-based storage solution. >pL >I can't speak to whether the $26,500 (list price) is too much for the value >you'd get, though.r >   K Now factor in buying the EVA to replace all our HSZ etc connected storage.  J Buying fibre channel cards - are they even supported on 2100s , 1000As and 4100s ?7  N When your buying a brand new system then EVA makes sense but not for all theseL old systems. Especially not when your management doesn't see much future for those VMS systems.  O Around 9 months ago I bought a couple of central mailhubs running PMDF and VMS.eJ Unless something changes those are probably the last VMS systems I will be allowed to purchase. -  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:00:46 +0200t9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>s8 Subject: Re: OT:problems with JCC oracleRDB mailing list' Message-ID: <3F27893E.D7CFD2AE@aaa.com>    Try :a+ > subscribe oraclerdb thick_guy_9@yahoo.comg > quit  	 Jan-Erik.t   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 08:04:36 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) + Subject: Re: Packed decimal arithmetic in Co3 Message-ID: <fE23zFIJxj8Z@eisner.encompasserve.org>*  d In article <bg6c0q$jrogm$2@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>, "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com> writes:  # > Plural - Pence, Singular - Penny.   @    We must have been de-anglicized somewhere.  Plural - pennies.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:24:30 GMTc From: ian@hammo.com (paramucho)l$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates3 Message-ID: <3f3a805f.201842855@news.supernews.com>i  8 On Tue, 29 Jul 03 12:55:40 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  3 >In article <bg5rmj$1kel$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>,s- >   peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: : >>In article <akbcivoupo8e031pb1toi662r85au3ttoh@4ax.com>,8 >>Brian Inglis  <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:= >>>On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:58:35 -0400 in alt.sys.pdp11, Glenno, >>>Everhart <Everhart-nospam@gce.com> wrote:L >>>>People who wanted to use BASIC in those days often found ways to get to H >>>>a pdp10 terminal. That's one reason Bill Gates transliterated pdp10 L >>>>BASIC (listings were readily available from DEC back then) as the story 	 >>>>goes.i >>> >>>Sound like the basis for an DEC/Compaq/HP suit against MS?  >>K >>Not likely, since that's not the story that was going around at the time.n >>
 >>That being:  >>D >>It was Paul Allen rather than Bill Gates who was the technical guyD >>at the original Microsoft, and who produced the original MS Basic. >>H >>The program allegedly plundered by Microsoft was a hobbyist Basic, not >>DEC's version. >i@ ><shrug>  I don't know where DEC got the BASIC.  Never paid muchA >attention to that product.  IIRC, the BASIC which ran on the -10r( >at my university was Dartmouth's BASIC.  F I used to have the source of papertape Basic for the PDP-11. It was in? assembler of course, and was written by Dartmouth for DEC IIRC.p  J >>Getting on for thirty years later, now, memories are fuzzy. There's veryH >>little on paper or oxide to refer to, so even if there was a kernel ofK >>truth it's far too late: any sane lawyer (yes, yes, I know, insert lawyerhE >>joke here) would advise against stirring the pot at this late date.o >aH >And moot since we didn't do much about copyrights until the 80s.  A lot? >of that stuff was [emoticon grasps for phrase] eminent domain.  > 6 >Due to Billyboy wannabes, they got NT without a peep. >  >/BAH  >0 > ( >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.     -- Ian " Impressive If Haughty - Q Magazine   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 07:46:10 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates3 Message-ID: <bG8h2QxOhViF@eisner.encompasserve.org>   E In article <bg5utt$oe4$5@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:   A > TOPS-10 viewed them as crash dumps.  We also used the term core E > to mean memory, especially since code could be on disk temporarily.e= > If code was "in core", it meant that it wasn't swapped out.P  F    A lot of TENEX, TOPS-10, and TOPS-20 systems did have magnetic coreC    memory.  I thought one of our engineers was saying "core" out of.G    habit until he told me we were going to replace the core in our 2050rE    with chips because it was having trouble and the new Field Service E    guys didn't know how to "tweak it".  After DEC swapped the memory 1=    systems I looked to see the actual core we had been using.S   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 06:39:57 -0700+ From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)n$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates= Message-ID: <bec993c8.0307300539.2f753c31@posting.google.com>o  a Glenn Everhart <Everhart-nospam@gce.com> wrote in message news:<bg1qka$dr2$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... J > People who wanted to use BASIC in those days often found ways to get to F > a pdp10 terminal. That's one reason Bill Gates transliterated pdp10 J > BASIC (listings were readily available from DEC back then) as the story  > goes.q  E I've got the sources to Altair BASIC and PDP-10 BASIC, and it's not a?G transliteration.  The Gates/Allen/Davidoff BASIC is vastly different insF structure (the MS tokenization seems to be entirely from scratch, evenB though there were other tokenized interpreters at the time).  WhatL causes this confusion is probably the PDP-10 comment at the top of the code:      INCLUDE BASIC.MAC  ,    ;COPYRIGHT 1975 BILL GATES AND PAUL ALLEN  #    ;BILL GATES WROTE A LOT OF STUFFs  .    ;PAUL ALLEN WROTE OTHER STUFF AND FAST CODE  )    ;MONTE DAVIDOFF WROTE THE MATH PACKAGEa  *    ;ORIGINALLY WRITTEN ON THE PDP-10 FROM     ;FEBRUARY 9 TO APRIL 9 1975   Tim.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 08:10:41 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)l" Subject: Re: Read MAG tape to disk3 Message-ID: <zNJWmCAy4Gis@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  e In article <9026b6ac.0307290858.2adbd970@posting.google.com>, rosj01@hotmail.com (James Ross) writes:YB > I have a PL/I application that write data to a  mag tape that is& > mounted using the following command:* > mount/for/den=6250/block=2050 TAPE MUB0: > @ > When I extract the data out of the mag tape on disk using this
 > command: > copy MUB0: []file.dat; > G > I get two extra bytes in the beginning of the file when I examine the  > hex dump.s< > The Hex dump command I perform is: dump/hex/byte file.dat; > /out=file.dmp; >   H    If you add /record to you're dump command I'll bet they're not there.G    I'll also bet that dir/full will show that this is a veriable length"B    record.  2050 decimal is 802 hex, which you are looking at byte    swapped.   G    I beleive you can get the data on disk in a fixed length record 2050 J    bytes long using convert.  But why bother?  RMS will deal with the metaD    data and your software will only see the 2050 bytes of real data,&    unless you work hard to bypass RMS.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 08:48:45 -07005 From: thomas.krebs@deutsche-boerse.com (Thomas Krebs)V& Subject: Running Java program detached< Message-ID: <2387c644.0307300748.42ff88c@posting.google.com>  F I am using JRE 1.4.0-1 on OpenVMS 7.3, trying to run a Java program asD a detached process. Therefore I have written a DCL, which looks like this:u  & $ @sys$manager:java$140_setup.com FAST! $ define JAVA$CLASSPATH .........  $ java "..."  F Running this DCL interactive works like a charm. However, when I start it withu  / $run /detached/input=dcl-above.com/output=t.log  sys$system:loginout.exeo    It fails with the error message:> Load class: sun/reflect/MagicAccessorImpl: could not find file  E By switching on verbose mode in the java command, I figured that thismE a class from  rt.jar which is the first class java tries to find. So, E obviously in the detached process it isn't able to locate its runtimeu environment.  
 Any ideas?   Thanks,0 Thomas   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:51:59 -0400$+ From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.com> * Subject: Re: Running Java program detached4 Message-ID: <TISVa.2565$Gf3.11853@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  7 Your LOGIN.COM is not executed in the detached process.mI User the /AUTHORIZE qualifier in your RUN command, that will take care ofv this.    -- Syltrem    OpenVMS 7.3-1 + Oracle 8.1.7.4H http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site, en franais)% ---zulu is not in my email address---fL "Thomas Krebs" <thomas.krebs@deutsche-boerse.com> a crit dans le message de7 news: 2387c644.0307300748.42ff88c@posting.google.com...dH > I am using JRE 1.4.0-1 on OpenVMS 7.3, trying to run a Java program asF > a detached process. Therefore I have written a DCL, which looks like > this:u >g( > $ @sys$manager:java$140_setup.com FAST# > $ define JAVA$CLASSPATH .........  > $ java "..." > H > Running this DCL interactive works like a charm. However, when I start	 > it withS >/1 > $run /detached/input=dcl-above.com/output=t.logn > sys$system:loginout.exe  >b" > It fails with the error message:@ > Load class: sun/reflect/MagicAccessorImpl: could not find file > G > By switching on verbose mode in the java command, I figured that thisuG > a class from  rt.jar which is the first class java tries to find. So,cG > obviously in the detached process it isn't able to locate its runtimeo > environment. >  > Any ideas? >0	 > Thanks,8 > Thomas   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:34:51 +01000* From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>; Subject: Re: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?)0' Message-ID: <bg8acu$6gd$1@lore.csc.com>    JF Mezei wrote:o >  > Dean Woodward wrote: > F > > Greylisting works like this: The first time the mail server gets aL > > connection from an IP address, for a given user, it logs the address andL > > replies "system not available". Most spam software will give up and moveA > > on- but a *real* SMTP server will try again in a few minutes.o > O > A "few minutes" may translate into "disaster for a last minute urgent email".CH > Don't most SMTP servers wait at least 15 minutes before trying again ?  G What or where on earth is there a statement that TCP/IP is a guaranteeds time critical network protocol?:  E If you have "last minute urgent" anything, don't use TCP/IP, it's noto	 for that.   D The work performed by proprietary networking protocols that give youD guarantees needs moving into the application layer above the network% layer for TCP/IP. RTR is one example.f  ! TCP = Transient Control Protocol.  IP = Intermittent Protocol.c   -- m? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesa nclews at csc dot come   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:03:20 +0100m* From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>; Subject: Re: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?)s' Message-ID: <bg8c2b$733$1@lore.csc.com>    Dean Woodward wrote: > F > My ISP recently installed a greylist setup, and spam on that account" > dropped roughly 95% immediately. > > > See http://projects.puremagic.com/greylisting/ for more info   Interesting.  B I can't see it working on my system because the delivery system IPH address is always one of the mail servers at my ISP. It would have to be, implemented by my ISP on their mail servers.  A My home system and email could only be switched on at several dayeH intervals. That 15 minute urgent message could wait around on a delivery queue for 7 days...e  E I've asked Demon before about this type of thing, they don't even uses	 RBL's :-(o   --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesg nclews at csc dot come   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:07:25 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk; Subject: Re: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?) ) Message-ID: <bg8cdt$5i1$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>9  T In article <bg8acu$6gd$1@lore.csc.com>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]> writes: >JF Mezei wrote: >> i >> Dean Woodward wrote:o >> eG >> > Greylisting works like this: The first time the mail server gets arM >> > connection from an IP address, for a given user, it logs the address andtM >> > replies "system not available". Most spam software will give up and movetB >> > on- but a *real* SMTP server will try again in a few minutes. >> cP >> A "few minutes" may translate into "disaster for a last minute urgent email".I >> Don't most SMTP servers wait at least 15 minutes before trying again ?d >oH >What or where on earth is there a statement that TCP/IP is a guaranteed  >time critical network protocol? >mF >If you have "last minute urgent" anything, don't use TCP/IP, it's not
 >for that. >bE >The work performed by proprietary networking protocols that give yousE >guarantees needs moving into the application layer above the networkn& >layer for TCP/IP. RTR is one example. >n" >TCP = Transient Control Protocol. >IP = Intermittent Protocol. >e  @ This is even more true of SMTP. SMTP mail systems queue up mail.J Depending on the load on the systems that a mail message passes through it) could be delivered in seconds or in days.iL SMTP tries to guarantee delivery (or a non delivery notification returned toO the sender) but it makes no guarantees whatsoever about how long delivery mighthK take. (even that guarantee of delivery or non-delivery report is now often eN breached since viruses started forging reply addresses making bouncing back toM the real sender impossible - hence I and probably many others have configuredqC their mail systems to bitbucket KLEZ and similarly infected mails).i  M For instance if your urgent mail passes through a mail system which has been uJ targeted by spammers (eg It might be a tempting open relay) then a system N with virtually no queuing going on may end up with queues of 10s of thousands 5 of mail messages as it virus scans each mail message.i  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University     >-- @ >Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences >nclews at csc dot com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:30:48 GMT8A From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk>i; Subject: Re: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?) = Message-ID: <IwRVa.4127$Hl3.38061267@news-text.cableinet.net>M   >O# > TCP = Transient Control Protocol.. > IP = Intermittent Protocol.n >e  $ And DECnet is an anagram of DECent !   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:44:34 +0100 7 From: "POWERS, John" <John.POWERS@reading.sema.slb.com>a; Subject: RE: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?)fH Message-ID: <95544AF90752D211AC0300A0C9E01D32019FFA2A@reaes4.sema.co.uk>  A Please, enough with the anagrams! Where I used to work we used a  ? 3rd party product for tcp-ip connections that was an anagram of  'wet crap'.   < It actually worked very well, despite the unfortunate name -> much better than the version of UCX that was available at that9 time. Now there was a product that deserved that moniker.g   - John   -----Original Message-----F From: Colin Butcher [mailto:colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk] Sent: 30 July 2003 16:31 To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comk; Subject: Re: SMTP greylisting (was Re: Teergrube for VMS ?)3     >4# > TCP = Transient Control Protocol.r > IP = Intermittent Protocol.v >   $ And DECnet is an anagram of DECent !   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:29:44 -0500 (CDT)n From: sms@antinode.org# Subject: SSH EAK (T5.3-11E) quirks?O) Message-ID: <03073011294448@antinode.org>P  H    Always on the cutting edge of free software, I recently tried the SSHE EAK, and had some trouble.  About a week ago, I sent a complaint liketE this, as suggested, to OPENVMSSECURITY@HP.COM, but have heard nothing A back.  If anyone here has any wisdom, I'm willing to consider it.S   ----------------      Environment (VMS):t    ALP $ product show product *ssh*< ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------5 PRODUCT                             KIT TYPE    STATEI< ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------9 DEC AXPVMS TCPIP_SSH T5.3-11E       Full LP     Installedk< ----------------------------------- ----------- ------------   alp $ ssh "-V"  F alp$dka0:[sys0.syscommon.][sysexe]tcpip$ssh_ssh2.exe: SSH Secure Shell; OpenVMS (V1.0) 2.4.1 on AlphaStation 200 4/233 - VMS V7.3-1t   ----------------      Environment (elsewhere):9   alp $ rsh ung uname -a8 SunOS ung 5.9 Generic_112233-06 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1   ----------------  F    Problem one:  While interactive SSH seems to work as expected, if IE specify a remote command on the SSH command line, the output seems toh/ come back having LF without CR, as shown below.t  =       Remote command on RSH command line (the good old days):m  . alp $ rsh ung "echo aaa ; echo bbb ; echo ccc" aaaa bbb  cccn alp $   ,       No remote command on SSH command line:  
 alp $ ssh ung  Authentication successful.- Last login: Wed Jul 30 11:33:46 2003 from alpr8 Sun Microsystems Inc.   SunOS 5.9       Generic May 2002    DISPLAY = "alp:0.0".m# ung% echo aaa ; echo bbb ; echo cccr aaa  bbbc ccci ung%  )       Remote command on SSH command line:r  . alp $ ssh ung "echo aaa ; echo bbb ; echo ccc" Authentication successful. aaai    bbb	       cccw  > alp $ !!! And this prompt appears only after a local <Return>.   ----------------  :    Problem two:  SSH fails within a DCL command procedure.   alp $ type sh.comi- $ 'p1' ung " echo aaa ; echo bbb ; echo ccc "    alp $ @ sh.com rsh aaa  bbbe cccs   alp $ @ sh.com ssh3 FATAL: ssh_io_register_fd: fd 3 already registered!e  6 %TCPIP-F-SSH_FATAL, non-specific fatal error condition alp $w  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode.orgs    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:13:34 +0100rO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>  Subject: Re: Sun and SCO0 Message-ID: <bg85of$14g$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Eric Bruno wrote:dJ > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:4jPXVjhbY4yr@eisner.encompasserve.org...V > 5 >>In article <uqpPmMr5zJvw@eisner.encompasserve.org>,l > ? > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:i > I >>>In article <bfgvpg$lik$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUKt >>= > Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:a > B >>>>You didn't consider that the deal could simply be a technologyA >>>>licensing deal that has nothing to do with SCO's ongoing casen >>>>against IBM ???c >>>a >>>   Nope.o >>G >>   And the July 21 interview with Scott McNealy in eWeek supports our-3 >>   skepticism on Sun's true feelings about Linux.7 >> > J > Two years ago Sun as going to kill it's Solaris x86 platform in favor of > Linux.   This now hasDL > flipped 180%.  The Solaris x86 community fought long and hard change Sun's > position.SK > Since Sun has a solid x86 Unix with Solaris x86 offering. Linux is not as2* > critical to Sun in order to get into x86J > installations, unlike HP and IBM which do not have x86 versions of their > Unix flavors.pJ > Installing Solaris x86 from a sales and marketing position will possible > allow Sun a betterD > opportunity to sell Ultrasparc technology as machines come due for > replacement. Since the > OS is the same.m > K > Due to neglect Sun is way behind in drivers for current hardware for x86.h > Access to0; > SCO's source base provides access to current x86 drivers.e > 
 > Eric Bruno.S >   = We also hired a number of SCO staff who used to work in their.= device driver team, they now work in Sun's kernel engineeringpA team in Watford (NR London) producing Solaris x86 device drivers.-  E The conspiracy theorists and people who publish unresearched BS aboutiB Sun on this newsgroup will probably still think that the whole SCO> case is just a put up job by Sun. As usual the truth is rather
 more mundane.    RegardsC Andrew Harrisonn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:30:20 +0100hO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>r Subject: Re: Sun and SCO0 Message-ID: <bg86nt$1gq$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:C > "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in messagew0 > news:20030721163441.653.qmail@gacracker.org... >  > : >>>Ahh so your supposition is that Sun is financing SCO to >>>sue IBM !!!!a >>F >>According to Terry Pratchett, use of multiple !s is a sure sign of a > 
 > diseased > 
 >>mind. :) >> >  > / > Yes, but let's not get into giant turtles ;-)  >  > A >>>You didn't consider that the deal could simply be a technologyt@ >>>licensing deal that has nothing to do with SCO's ongoing case >>>against IBM ??? >>>p >>>How typical.  >> > L > I suppose the implication here is that Sun wants to be seen as a supporterN > of Linux on the one hand, but hedge it's bets on the other hand - but not inF > public.  The option to buy a stake in SCO is curious, since the onlyN > apparent way for that to have been beneficial is for SCO to be successful inN > it's crusade to stop Linux, and force companies to license it's UNIX IP.  SoL > it does question just how firmly Sun really is committed Linux.  The deathL > or crippling of Linux certainly would help Solaris - at least in the short > term.- >    Humm so we didn't donate.sC NetBeans, Java, OpenOffice, Mozilla, Grid, Chillisoft, Cubic SplinehD etc etc to the OpenSource community a series of donations that serve? to illiminate just how little HP apparently one of Linux's most ) ardent have done to add to OpenSource IP.-  > In a previous discussion the only thing of note that an of the< HP appologists to come up with as leading the Linux, Itanium? port. Not that noteworthy when you remember what Linus Torvaldsc  thinks of Itanium as a platform.  @ Deeds a rather more telling than words Freddy and you ain't done! anything of note yet and Sun has.i  @ When you do you may have earn't the right to argue the toss with& us about our commitment to OpenSource. > D >>Gotta love them plausible conspiracy theories, haven't you Andrew? >> >  > N > Doesn't have to be any conspiracy here.  Simply Sun hedging their bets... inB > a way to try to fly under the radar of the true Linux believers. >  >   @ I see that you are still peddling the same speculative BS Freddy boy.  < Sad because working for HP as you do in software development: you will be acutely aware for the fact that the protection4 of HP's IP from unauthorised use is a high priority.  B If SCO's case against IBM is proven and I have yet to see informed@ analysis that suggests the SCO definitely don't have a case then@ your companies public stance will be to support SCO. You have no= other choice unless you want people cutting and pasting HP IPA into competitors products.  8 So cut the sactimonous BS it only makes you look foolish   RegardsR Andrew Harrison_   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 08:15:26 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)c Subject: Re: Sun and SCO3 Message-ID: <D$g1IN5okUci@eisner.encompasserve.org>o   In article <bg85of$14g$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:  G > The conspiracy theorists and people who publish unresearched BS about D > Sun on this newsgroup will probably still think that the whole SCO# > case is just a put up job by Sun.-  >    No, they're quite sure it's a put up job by MicroSoft, just"    disapointed to see Sun join in.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 08:17:24 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a Subject: Re: Sun and SCO3 Message-ID: <X3Zg$Y3WcLjU@eisner.encompasserve.org>N   In article <bg86nt$1gq$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:  @ > In a previous discussion the only thing of note that an of the> > HP appologists to come up with as leading the Linux, ItaniumA > port. Not that noteworthy when you remember what Linus Torvaldss" > thinks of Itanium as a platform.  F    Just because Torvalds wrote a kernel for an 80386, doesn't make himG    a great judge of technology.  He actually dislikes VMS so he doesn't.    get any credit here.r        ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:35:42 +0100tO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>  Subject: Re: Sun and SCO0 Message-ID: <bg8okf$7vd$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <bg85of$14g$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: >  > G >>The conspiracy theorists and people who publish unresearched BS aboutvD >>Sun on this newsgroup will probably still think that the whole SCO# >>case is just a put up job by Sun.l >  > @ >    No, they're quite sure it's a put up job by MicroSoft, just$ >    disapointed to see Sun join in. >     C If we had then they would have the right to be disapointed if thatslD their perspective on the case. However thats just another conspiracy theory.   E I say perspective because no one as suggested yet that SCO definitelyeB don't have a case against IBM. What happens if the courts find for, SCO ruling that IBM have missused SCO's IP ?  C Posters from HP who so far have gone bad SCO being nasty to IBM andiB Linux while attempting to include Sun in the SCO camp as well willC all be sitting on their hands. HP is just as keen to protect its IPt) as any other commercial software company.t     Regardsi Andrew Harrisono   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:38:34 +0100oO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>l Subject: Re: Sun and SCO0 Message-ID: <bg8opr$7vd$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <bg86nt$1gq$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: >  > @ >>In a previous discussion the only thing of note that an of the> >>HP appologists to come up with as leading the Linux, ItaniumA >>port. Not that noteworthy when you remember what Linus Torvalds-" >>thinks of Itanium as a platform. >  > H >    Just because Torvalds wrote a kernel for an 80386, doesn't make himI >    a great judge of technology.  He actually dislikes VMS so he doesn'tn >    get any credit here.i >    e  = I havn't detected any like for or much understanding of Linuxo. on the part of Fred, doesn't stop him posting.     Regardsp Andrew Harrisonr   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:17:28 GMTe9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>r Subject: Re: Sun and SCO1 Message-ID: <scSVa.1113$7r3.892@news.cpqcorp.net>   K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> ; wrote in message news:bg86nt$1gq$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...r   ...KB > Deeds a rather more telling than words Freddy and you ain't done# > anything of note yet and Sun has.  >p ...1B > I see that you are still peddling the same speculative BS Freddy > boy. >l ...s: > So cut the sactimonous BS it only makes you look foolish >e  J Your responses generally seemed aimed at starting name calling matches, doF you perhaps need some anger management - maybe a little extra lithium?F Someone asked a question, and yes - we were specilating on why so manyH people suspect Sun's motives.  Just like I suspect your "public service"@ motives for spending so much of your time in the VMS conference.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:27:05 -0700o& From: Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com> Subject: Re: Sun and SCO. Message-ID: <vifsf1nf8djfe@corp.supernews.com>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:   > Bob Koehler wrote: > J >> In article <bg86nt$1gq$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK > >> Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: >> >>B >>> In a previous discussion the only thing of note that an of the@ >>> HP appologists to come up with as leading the Linux, ItaniumC >>> port. Not that noteworthy when you remember what Linus Torvaldse$ >>> thinks of Itanium as a platform. >> >> >>I >>    Just because Torvalds wrote a kernel for an 80386, doesn't make him J >>    a great judge of technology.  He actually dislikes VMS so he doesn't >>    get any credit here. >>     >  > ? > I havn't detected any like for or much understanding of Linuxt0 > on the part of Fred, doesn't stop him posting.   Bob is right about Linus IMHO. -- g
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:48:50 GMTr9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>s Subject: Re: Sun and SCO1 Message-ID: <SFSVa.1116$KL3.519@news.cpqcorp.net>v  K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> ; wrote in message news:bg8opr$7vd$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...s > Bob Koehler wrote:J > > In article <bg86nt$1gq$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK; Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:w > >n > >lB > >>In a previous discussion the only thing of note that an of the@ > >>HP appologists to come up with as leading the Linux, ItaniumC > >>port. Not that noteworthy when you remember what Linus Torvaldst$ > >>thinks of Itanium as a platform. > >  > >oJ > >    Just because Torvalds wrote a kernel for an 80386, doesn't make himK > >    a great judge of technology.  He actually dislikes VMS so he doesn't, > >    get any credit here.r > >  >t? > I havn't detected any like for or much understanding of Linuxn0 > on the part of Fred, doesn't stop him posting. >   A What exact understanding am I missing that has any bearing on theN> discussion?  Or is this just another famous Andrew deflection?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:40:46 +0100eO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>@ Subject: Re: Sun and SCO0 Message-ID: <bg8sef$97u$3@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:M > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> = > wrote in message news:bg86nt$1gq$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...h >  > ...t > B >>Deeds a rather more telling than words Freddy and you ain't done# >>anything of note yet and Sun has.e >> >  > ...h > B >>I see that you are still peddling the same speculative BS Freddy >>boy. >> >  > ...s > : >>So cut the sactimonous BS it only makes you look foolish >> >  > L > Your responses generally seemed aimed at starting name calling matches, doH > you perhaps need some anger management - maybe a little extra lithium?H > Someone asked a question, and yes - we were specilating on why so manyJ > people suspect Sun's motives.  Just like I suspect your "public service"B > motives for spending so much of your time in the VMS conference. >  >    Its my hobby whats your excuse.-   regards- Andrew Harrison  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:20:17 GMTj9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>x Subject: Re: Sun and SCO1 Message-ID: <l7TVa.1119$gR3.800@news.cpqcorp.net>e  K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>v; wrote in message news:bg8sef$97u$3@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...O >4! > Its my hobby whats your excuse.N >e  K Get help Andy.  Really.  I hear that you can get free mental health care ins the UK.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:46:53 +0100>O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>l, Subject: Re: Sun Micro Profit, Revenues Fall0 Message-ID: <bg8enu$4du$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:9 > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in messagee% > news:3F214AF3.6E03CAD1@istop.com...d >  >>Mark Buda wrote: >>I >>>SUN is having earnings problems big time and it is most interesting ton >> > seeM >  >>>how you "explain" it away.s >>L >>One must not have such a short term view.  Sun has increased R&D spending,F >>correct ? To me, that means that in the longer term, there is a good >  > chance > # >>that Sun may begin to grow again.h >> >  >  > Maybe yes, maybe no. > N > Let's tackle R&D.  Sun had expanded its business to about $18+ billion/yr inM > revenue by fiscal 2001.  To support that kind of revenue stream and growth,gL > they over time built up a sales force, engineering, bricks and mortar, andI > general overhead needed to deliver their product.  By this year (fiscaluN > 2003) their revenue had shrunk to $11+ billion/yr.  But they still have muchM > of the now "fixed" overhead that they needed when they were a third larger. M > People, buildings, inventory, equipment.  So as a result, their R&D expenseMK > is now way out of line with their revenues - that is - they don't have tosG > increase spending at all for the expense to be a higher percentage ofr3 > revenue - which is generally what you see quoted.- > I > Now the short term problem.  Sun's market cap is about $13 billion, and?N > reportedly they have nearly $6 billlion in cash, and are losing $2 billion a > year (currently).  3    
 BS Freddy.  @ Sun wrote down over 2 billion of assets this is just a book loss? and all the Financial analysts credit rating agencies etc treat0 it as such.0  0 On the same basis HP lost 1 billion last fiscal.  > With your division bravely leading the way losing 912 million.  @ And you keep the BS about Sun's revenue falling in 9 consecutive= quarters. Pretty much the same for HP. Revenues fell 11% last< year.m  ; You are also such a hilarious laugh posting as you do while 1 being paid for margin from putting toner in pots.   A With the changes in reporting instigated 2 quarters ago you arn't31 even funded by the division you work for anymore.u   Why ?:  @ Want an even bigger joke then read the letter sent by your boardG to your shareholders in Jan 2002 explaining the benefits of the merger.   ( This extracted directly from the letter.  = "In the technology industry, market leadership drives growth.t> By merging with Compaq we become the market leader in servers,< storage and managment software - the essential components of business infrastructure".t  < So whats you boards public position now that HP has lost its> market lead in Storage and Servers. IBM was the largest server> vendor in 2002 and tied with HP as the largest storage vendor.  > In the subsets of the server market Dell is now the largest PC< server vendor and Sun the largest UNIX vendor. In almost all' HP's markets it is losing market share.    Good merger benefit.  7 They go on to say with respect to the merger increasing  profitability.  ; "Improving the profitability of our other business segmentsw8 will enable us to continue to increase our investment in< inovation and R&D in our market-leading printing and imaging
 business".  5 In fact as we now know without centralising R&D costs.3 neither the PC or Enterprise systems businesses are 9 profitable. While HP Services despite plenty of publicityS3 relating to outsourcing has a declining revenue ando profits with declining margins.e  8 The net effect of the changes to HP's reporting is that:  4 1.	It makes the division that you work for look less 	unprofitable than it is.t  6 2.	It makes it more difficult for shareholders to work3 	out whether the benefits that the board said wouldw3 	flow from the merger are actually being delivered.a  ; What is unquestionable is that the merger has not delivereds2 on two of the key benefits outlined by your board.   Which raises the question.  6 Did the board vastly sell the benefits of the merger ? or/ Has HP executed badly against the merger plan ?    In this contextw5 http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2003/0811/076_print.html  makes highly ammusing reading.  7 Instead of asking the question how long can Sun survivee; without a cash cow like toner you should be asking yourself:< how long is is acceptable for  HP's shareholders to wait for? Imaging and Printing to stop being the business unit that keeps2% the rest of the company in the black.n     Regardsu Andrew Harrison.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:44:32 GMTm9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>l, Subject: Re: Sun Micro Profit, Revenues Fall1 Message-ID: <QBSVa.1115$nk3.341@news.cpqcorp.net>a  K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> ; wrote in message news:bg8enu$4du$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...c > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:; > > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message ' > > news:3F214AF3.6E03CAD1@istop.com...l > >  > >>Mark Buda wrote: > >>K > >>>SUN is having earnings problems big time and it is most interesting tos > >> > > seee > >a > >>>how you "explain" it away.  > >>D > >>One must not have such a short term view.  Sun has increased R&D	 spending,nH > >>correct ? To me, that means that in the longer term, there is a good > >c
 > > chance > >2% > >>that Sun may begin to grow again.v > >> > >r > >n > > Maybe yes, maybe no. > > B > > Let's tackle R&D.  Sun had expanded its business to about $18+
 billion/yr in G > > revenue by fiscal 2001.  To support that kind of revenue stream andi growth,tJ > > they over time built up a sales force, engineering, bricks and mortar, and)K > > general overhead needed to deliver their product.  By this year (fiscalAK > > 2003) their revenue had shrunk to $11+ billion/yr.  But they still havet muchG > > of the now "fixed" overhead that they needed when they were a thirdt larger. G > > People, buildings, inventory, equipment.  So as a result, their R&Ds expensefJ > > is now way out of line with their revenues - that is - they don't have toI > > increase spending at all for the expense to be a higher percentage ofE5 > > revenue - which is generally what you see quoted.D > > K > > Now the short term problem.  Sun's market cap is about $13 billion, andOF > > reportedly they have nearly $6 billlion in cash, and are losing $2	 billion a- > > year (currently).l >0 >8 > BS Freddy. >mB > Sun wrote down over 2 billion of assets this is just a book lossA > and all the Financial analysts credit rating agencies etc treats
 > it as such.n >t  G Actually, they didn't write down assets, they took a non-cash charge to(G write off the "goodwill" that was part of the cost of acquiring severalaI companies.  In subsequent message, I did my mea culpa - the loss actually0? was cut to around a quarter of a billion when that is excluded.m  2 > On the same basis HP lost 1 billion last fiscal. >l  B The main difference being that in all other quarters, we have beenH profitable, and looking at our most recently reported quarter, we are up% from last year *and* making a profit.   @ > With your division bravely leading the way losing 912 million. >r  I And which is now down to around the size of your entire quarterly profit, @ and will soon be back in the black.  There are costs involved in? consolidating 4 seperate hardware architectures and engineeringf organizations.  B > And you keep the BS about Sun's revenue falling in 9 consecutive? > quarters. Pretty much the same for HP. Revenues fell 11% lastb > year.e >d  +            FY (10/03) FY (10/02) FY (10/01) .             1st Qtr 17,877.0 11,383.0 11,948.0.             2nd Qtr 17,983.0 10,621.0 11,607.0(             3rd Qtr NA 16,536.0 10,147.0(             4th Qtr NA 18,049.0 10,876.0,             Total 35,860.0 56,589.0 44,578.0     Really?J  .               FY (10/03) FY (10/02) FY (10/01)%             1st Qtr $0.24 $0.25 $0.16 %             2nd Qtr $0.22 $0.12 $0.03 #             3rd Qtr NA -$0.67 $0.05u"             4th Qtr NA $0.20 $0.04$             Total $0.46 -$0.10 $0.28          > Numbers look like they are all heading in the right direction.  = > You are also such a hilarious laugh posting as you do whilen3 > being paid for margin from putting toner in pots.a >   G Hmmm.  We're laughing all the way to big profits, and increasing marketsI share - while it appears that you are losing market share.  It is nice tohK have some diversification during hard economic times - it can save you froms having to do really bad things.t  I I think you need to re-read your reports and take your blinders off.  You-L are losing money, losing market share, and uncompetetive on performance, andK cutting prices into larger losses to try and keep your customers.  You needTJ to find small corners of specific statistics to find ways to call yourself #1, or growing.e  L I've snipped the rest of your amusing attempt to refocus from Sun's problemsK to HP's.  Your only defence of Sun appears to be to try and riducule HP fornK having a diverse and profitable business.  And not to address Sun's issues.e   > Good merger benefit. >b   Yup.  It was, and it is.   >c9 > Instead of asking the question how long can Sun survive2 > without a cash cow  9 No.  I think the question was "How long can Sun survive".n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:49:18 -0400h) From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.nospam@istop.com>g< Subject: Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP) Message-ID: <3F275C13.DBBBD258@istop.com>i   Mike Naime wrote: M > Why migrate?   I have an old E-mail from one of our engineers boasting thateM > he was the first from our company to boot VMS on an IA64 on May 22 in Nashue > NH.   # 1- You want a vendor you can trust.I  M 2- You don't want to have to constantly guess what a vendor REALLY intends to % do with their product which you need.t  J 3-The future of IA64 is still quite cloudy. Even the apologists agree that> IA64 is still something that would materialise in the future.   J 4-The futire of VMS is even cloudier with HP not mentioning VMS unless the3 loyalists generate sufficient number of complaints.i   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:31:34 GMT:/ From: "Jeff Goodwin" <jgoodwin@maine.rrr-r.com>@< Subject: Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP7 Message-ID: <GUOVa.48454$wk4.1562@twister.nyroc.rr.com>   D I got a call from Sun a couple of weeks ago concerning HP's mythicalK announcement that OpenVMS had been EOL'd.  By now, I suspect most remaininga8 OpenVMS customers are on to this re-occurring deception.  L Unfortunately, it will be Digital/Compaq/HP's pathetic treatment of the PL/1H compiler that will eventually drive our company to another vendor.  (No,K we're not converting it to C++ so we can run on IPF.  If we have to perform L a large-scale conversion, it'll be away from the company that forced us intoJ the conversion).  Based on what other divisions are doing in this company,. there's a good chance that vendor will be Sun.   -Jeffo  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0307291812.3327f013@posting.google.com...pF > In a campaign called 'HP Away', Sun is trying to take customers fromF > HP, but based on the customers quoted in these articles, they aren't > having much luck.  >e [snip]   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 07:40:15 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)j< Subject: Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP3 Message-ID: <me6Whb4ZKYmx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i In article <GUOVa.48454$wk4.1562@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, "Jeff Goodwin" <jgoodwin@maine.rrr-r.com> writes:e > F > I got a call from Sun a couple of weeks ago concerning HP's mythicalM > announcement that OpenVMS had been EOL'd.  By now, I suspect most remainings: > OpenVMS customers are on to this re-occurring deception. > N > Unfortunately, it will be Digital/Compaq/HP's pathetic treatment of the PL/1J > compiler that will eventually drive our company to another vendor.  (No,M > we're not converting it to C++ so we can run on IPF.  If we have to performeN > a large-scale conversion, it'll be away from the company that forced us intoL > the conversion).  Based on what other divisions are doing in this company,0 > there's a good chance that vendor will be Sun.  : Solaris PL/I comes from a third party (Liant) according to  0 	http://www.faqs.org/faqs/computer-lang/pli-faq/  / VMS PL/I now comes from a third party (Kednos).$  ) What action do you want from HP on PL/I ?6   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 05:45:12 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>o< Subject: RE: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEMPHKAA.tom@kednos.com>   A I wish we had better news to report on this issue of porting PL/IlA to Itanium.  As you know on Alpha we interface to the GEM backendeD and the effort to hook it up to newer version which supports ItaniumB is really no big deal.  We have made the request to HP, but at theB moment they don't seem to understand the business opportunity thatE is at risk.  As the recent discussions on packed decimal calculations C pointed out, these can not be performed with C or C++, which is, oftD course, one reason that all the largest financial institutions stickH with PL/I.  This also ties in with the thread on Disaster Recovery, i.e.F you can have the best scheme out there, but if your applications don't run there it is useless.  F I think this question would be appropriately addressed to Mark Gorham.   >-----Original Message----- 5 >From: Jeff Goodwin [mailto:jgoodwin@maine.rrr-r.com]n' >Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 5:32 AMm >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com= >Subject: Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HPe >e >e >(E >I got a call from Sun a couple of weeks ago concerning HP's mythical L >announcement that OpenVMS had been EOL'd.  By now, I suspect most remaining9 >OpenVMS customers are on to this re-occurring deception.h >sA >Unfortunately, it will be Digital/Compaq/HP's pathetic treatmento >of the PL/1I >compiler that will eventually drive our company to another vendor.  (No,aL >we're not converting it to C++ so we can run on IPF.  If we have to perform> >a large-scale conversion, it'll be away from the company that >forced us intomK >the conversion).  Based on what other divisions are doing in this company, / >there's a good chance that vendor will be Sun.  >u >-Jeff >m? >"Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message 8 >news:cf15391e.0307291812.3327f013@posting.google.com...G >> In a campaign called 'HP Away', Sun is trying to take customers fromnG >> HP, but based on the customers quoted in these articles, they aren'tu >> having much luck. >> >[snip]B >h >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.u; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).eA >Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 7/18/2003  >C ---r& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 7/18/2003   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 08:03:20 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)u< Subject: RE: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP3 Message-ID: <Ht8Xw29kkg1X@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEMPHKAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:a > C > I wish we had better news to report on this issue of porting PL/ItC > to Itanium.  As you know on Alpha we interface to the GEM backendaF > and the effort to hook it up to newer version which supports ItaniumD > is really no big deal.  We have made the request to HP, but at theD > moment they don't seem to understand the business opportunity thatG > is at risk.  As the recent discussions on packed decimal calculationsrE > pointed out, these can not be performed with C or C++, which is, oftF > course, one reason that all the largest financial institutions stick > with PL/I.  F Another reason, which might resonate better with those who are blindedF by the shining C, is that rewriting into a different language _always_F introduces new defects.  VMS-savvy individuals can cite the history ofG the rewriting of VMSmail from Bliss into C, and those two languages areaG much more on an equivalent level than a higher level language like PL/I @ from which such a conversion would provide even more difficulty.  > > This also ties in with the thread on Disaster Recovery, i.e.H > you can have the best scheme out there, but if your applications don't > run there it is useless. > H > I think this question would be appropriately addressed to Mark Gorham.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:06:02 GMTl# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>-< Subject: Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HPG Message-ID: <_oPVa.36477$rsJ.3179@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:me6Whb4ZKYmx@eisner.encompasserve.org...)? > In article <GUOVa.48454$wk4.1562@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, "Jeff4+ Goodwin" <jgoodwin@maine.rrr-r.com> writes:  > >l? > > I got a call from Sun a couple of weeks ago concerning HP'sp mythicalE > > announcement that OpenVMS had been EOL'd.  By now, I suspect mosta	 remainingh< > > OpenVMS customers are on to this re-occurring deception. > >eD > > Unfortunately, it will be Digital/Compaq/HP's pathetic treatment of the PL/1 F > > compiler that will eventually drive our company to another vendor. (No,D > > we're not converting it to C++ so we can run on IPF.  If we have
 to performA > > a large-scale conversion, it'll be away from the company that= forced us intoE > > the conversion).  Based on what other divisions are doing in thiso company,2 > > there's a good chance that vendor will be Sun. >o< > Solaris PL/I comes from a third party (Liant) according to > 1 > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/computer-lang/pli-faq/r >l1 > VMS PL/I now comes from a third party (Kednos).o >S+ > What action do you want from HP on PL/I ?l    B 1) It would be nice if there was a coherent message getting out to? customers....and the best way to do that is via advertising andhE personal contact. HP placed a double full-page ad (the centerfold) inpE the business section of my local paper today extolling the virtues of-E HP Business Services and outsourcing. Without similar ads for VMS you F can be sure that HP customers will be outsourcing their VMS investment  to Sparc/Solaris and Dell/Linux.  E 2) See Tom Linden's post in this thread for some clue as what else HP 
 has to do.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:17:30 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>D< Subject: RE: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKENDHKAA.tom@kednos.com>r  E Jeff, send me an email offline and I will add you to our distributionnJ list for PL/I, if you are interested.  We just released version 4.4 on the
 20th of July.v   >-----Original Message----- 5 >From: Jeff Goodwin [mailto:jgoodwin@maine.rrr-r.com]n' >Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 5:32 AMA >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com= >Subject: Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HPo >  >p >bE >I got a call from Sun a couple of weeks ago concerning HP's mythicalgL >announcement that OpenVMS had been EOL'd.  By now, I suspect most remaining9 >OpenVMS customers are on to this re-occurring deception.s >tA >Unfortunately, it will be Digital/Compaq/HP's pathetic treatment  >of the PL/1I >compiler that will eventually drive our company to another vendor.  (No,lL >we're not converting it to C++ so we can run on IPF.  If we have to perform> >a large-scale conversion, it'll be away from the company that >forced us intotK >the conversion).  Based on what other divisions are doing in this company,a/ >there's a good chance that vendor will be Sun.  >x >-Jeff > ? >"Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message 8 >news:cf15391e.0307291812.3327f013@posting.google.com...G >> In a campaign called 'HP Away', Sun is trying to take customers fromSG >> HP, but based on the customers quoted in these articles, they aren'tr >> having much luck. >> >[snip]0 >  >' >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.i; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).CA >Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 7/18/2003r >n ---s& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.502 / Virus Database: 300 - Release Date: 7/18/2003   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:22:05 -0400u( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>< Subject: Re: Sun tries to woo AlphaServer users away from HP, Message-ID: <3F27C67D.5020003@tsoft-inc.com>   JF Mezei wrote:0   > Mike Naime wrote:i > M >>Why migrate?   I have an old E-mail from one of our engineers boasting thatdM >>he was the first from our company to boot VMS on an IA64 on May 22 in Nashu: >>NH.c >> > % > 1- You want a vendor you can trust.o > O > 2- You don't want to have to constantly guess what a vendor REALLY intends too' > do with their product which you need.C > L > 3-The future of IA64 is still quite cloudy. Even the apologists agree that@ > IA64 is still something that would materialise in the future.  > L > 4-The futire of VMS is even cloudier with HP not mentioning VMS unless the5 > loyalists generate sufficient number of complaints.a >   L None of the above are valid answers to the question, to which there isn't a 
 valid answer.   M 1 - When you're selecting a vendor, trust is important.  When you're already   there, you're already there.  T 2 - You'll find out when they do it.  Plenty of time then to determine your options.  O 3 - The system I use most is a VAXstation 4000 model 90A.  EV7 is now shipping fQ and could satisfy the requirements of most customers for much more than 10 years.c  P 4 - Would JF tell me exactly how HP actions will affect the VMS CD media now in  customer's hands?   O If you're JF, the first time the boat rocks a bit, you're launching a lifeboat -: and sitting in the middle of the ocean with just a paddle.  T Me, I think I'll wait until it's rather apparent that the ship is indeed going down.  J I have yet to see anything showing how a migration, even if forced in the P future, would be better now when it's not really clear that such is even needed.   Dave   -- h4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2003 08:03:00 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)h? Subject: Re: TCPIP$TRACEROUTE: A non-recoverable error occured.l3 Message-ID: <EEHb9r1ktFBa@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <s65div864u361epgke62ggokt0om3iv6l0@4ax.com>, jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> writes:y > B > Unfortunately this is typical coding practice for many so-called
 > developers.l  F    The C RTL will dumb down error messages to meet UNIX/C conventions.@    I've found that if I get errno of EIO I'm better off changingB    it to EVMSERR before calling perror or such, then I'll find out&    what was really wrong with the I/O.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:24:49 +0200S% From: "Igor" <igor.fosic@os.hinet.hr>o) Subject: Re: the newest file in directoryr) Message-ID: <bg89u2$qcj$1@ls219.htnet.hr>   5 "John Brandon" <brandon@dalsemi.com> wrote in messagep+ news:03072906483592@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com...  > Try this:k >o > $! > $ cdt_save = ""H > $ res_filespec_save = "" > $ gosub find_filee7 > $ write sys$output "newest file : ",res_filespec_save. > $ exit > $! > $! > $ find_file:# > $ res_filespec = f$search("*.*;")g* > $ if (res_filespec .eqs. "") then return. > $ cdt = f$cvtime(f$file(res_filespec,"CDT")) > $ if (cdt .gts. cdt_save)y > $ then > $   cdt_save = cdt& > $   res_filespec_save = res_filespec	 > $ endifp > $ goto find_file    * Thanks, this code has solved my problem !!   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:23:57 GMTy( From: David Harrold <DHarrold@wi.rr.com>/ Subject: Third party volume shadowing products? @ Message-ID: <3767423eaa1d6512bd3b946c34161f3d@free.teranews.com>  J We were having a discussion a few weeks ago about some of the new featuresL coming in 7.3-2, specifically the new shadowing features regarding shadowing different sized disks, etc.1  K Someone in the group said it was about time because there were, or at leastsJ used to be, 3rd party shadowing products that could do these things.  I'veK never heard of any shadowing products for VMS except the supplied ones from,N DEC.  But it made me curious, were there such tools at some point in the past? If so, what happened to them?.   Thanks,    Dave Harrold    N ..............................................................................N David Harrold                              E-Mail: David_Harrold at aurora.orgI Sr. Software Systems Engineer              Phone:          (414) 647-6204rI                                            Pager:          (414) 941-4634jG Aurora Health Care                         Fax:          (414) 647-4999  3031 W. Montana Street Milwaukee, WI 532151   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:13:45 +0100s* From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>3 Subject: Re: Third party volume shadowing products?r' Message-ID: <bg8jmm$9hv$1@lore.csc.com>i   David Harrold wrote: > L > We were having a discussion a few weeks ago about some of the new featuresN > coming in 7.3-2, specifically the new shadowing features regarding shadowing > different sized disks, etc.t > M > Someone in the group said it was about time because there were, or at least.L > used to be, 3rd party shadowing products that could do these things.  I'veM > never heard of any shadowing products for VMS except the supplied ones fromaP > DEC.  But it made me curious, were there such tools at some point in the past? > If so, what happened to them?o   Listed here:  A http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/matrix/application_cur_v.htmlc   And detailed here:  - http://www.advsyscon.com/products/rso/rso.aspp  B Unfortunately their web site doesn't appear to work with Netscape.   -- r? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesu nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:19:54 +0100c* From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>3 Subject: Re: Third party volume shadowing products?r' Message-ID: <bg8k26$9i1$1@lore.csc.com>e   Nic Clews wrote: >  Time travel time:t   > Listed here: > C > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/matrix/application_cur_v.htmle   As VIRTUOSO...   > And detailed here: > / > http://www.advsyscon.com/products/rso/rso.aspi > D > Unfortunately their web site doesn't appear to work with Netscape.  & Product got a rename to Remote Shadow.  H Paston Chase in the UK used to deal in ASCI products IIRC. They still do7 IRIS the terminal viewer / recorder / response monitor.    -- o? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesn nclews at csc dot comr   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:02:06 GMTe" From: Lee <lytmah@telusplanet.net>3 Subject: Re: Third party volume shadowing products?7/ Message-ID: <3F27EC36.A858F98C@telusplanet.net>t  Q I recall looking at once such product over 10 years ago.  After delving into whatqQ would be involved in making it work, I decided it was not worth the effort.  PlusnM the fact that implementing the product would probably invalidate support from  Digital (back then).     David Harrold wrote:  L > We were having a discussion a few weeks ago about some of the new featuresN > coming in 7.3-2, specifically the new shadowing features regarding shadowing > different sized disks, etc.e >oM > Someone in the group said it was about time because there were, or at leastlL > used to be, 3rd party shadowing products that could do these things.  I'veM > never heard of any shadowing products for VMS except the supplied ones fromaP > DEC.  But it made me curious, were there such tools at some point in the past? > If so, what happened to them?t > 	 > Thanks,c >e > Dave Harrold >-P > ..............................................................................P > David Harrold                              E-Mail: David_Harrold at aurora.orgK > Sr. Software Systems Engineer              Phone:          (414) 647-6204tK >                                            Pager:          (414) 941-4634UI > Aurora Health Care                         Fax:          (414) 647-4999> > 3031 W. Montana Street > Milwaukee, WI 53215n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:57:48 +0100,- From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com>u+ Subject: [Change topic -> OT] Pence/Pennies / Message-ID: <vifjnsl1ji2q4f@corp.supernews.com>c   Bob Koehler wrote:  f > In article <bg6c0q$jrogm$2@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>, "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com> writes: > # >>Plural - Pence, Singular - Penny.  > B >    We must have been de-anglicized somewhere.  Plural - pennies.  1 I'd say it's slightly more complicated in the UK..  8 The "pence" usage is (was?) usually for a monetary value e.g. fourpence, sixpence.-  2 I think that it would have been common to say e.g.8 "there are four pennies on the table" (i.e. 4 individual8 penny coins), in contrast to "there are fourpence on the6 table" (possibly made up of one threepenny bit and one penny).u  6 Ah, the threepenny bit ... yeah, I know, I can hear it8 coming - "you had a threepenny bit ? you were lucky ..." :-)h   Showing my age ( >L ),  	 Roy Omond1 Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:09:00 -0400n From: norm.raphael@metso.com/ Subject: Re: [Change topic -> OT] Pence/Pennies ? Message-ID: <OFECF21BC1.1DE4DF22-ON85256D73.004D7A9A@metso.com>   > I thought that was tuppence, thruppence, or is/was that slang?F I also thought pence was the denomination name for old pence, and that4 new pence became interchangable with penny, pennies.: Pence, therefore, like moose, is both singular and plural.  E From:  Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> on 07/30/2003 09:57 AM   9 Please respond to Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com>    To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:t  . Subject:    [Change topic -> OT] Pence/Pennies     Bob Koehler wrote:  J > In article <bg6c0q$jrogm$2@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>, "John Travell" <john@jomatech.com> writes:- >-# >>Plural - Pence, Singular - Penny.4 >0B >    We must have been de-anglicized somewhere.  Plural - pennies.  1 I'd say it's slightly more complicated in the UK.-  8 The "pence" usage is (was?) usually for a monetary value e.g. fourpence, sixpence.S  2 I think that it would have been common to say e.g.8 "there are four pennies on the table" (i.e. 4 individual8 penny coins), in contrast to "there are fourpence on the6 table" (possibly made up of one threepenny bit and one penny).S  6 Ah, the threepenny bit ... yeah, I know, I can hear it8 coming - "you had a threepenny bit ? you were lucky ..." :-)    Showing my age ( >L ),  	 Roy Omond  Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.418 ************************        