1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 06 Jun 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 311       Contents:7 Analyst says SCO proof of stolen code very credible ... + Bugbear virus - this dog don't hunt on VMS! = CREATE/TERMINAL ... maintain focus in DECterm issuing command A Re: CREATE/TERMINAL ... maintain focus in DECterm issuing command A Re: CREATE/TERMINAL ... maintain focus in DECterm issuing command P Re: Date issue in Winnt /  win2000 in files from vms throug pathworks advanced s  Re: diagnostic tools alphaServer  Re: diagnostic tools alphaServer  Re: diagnostic tools alphaServer  Re: diagnostic tools alphaServer< Re: Encompass Message:  "Itanium: The Roadmap to the Future" Firewall for VMS / TRU64 Re: Firewall for VMS / TRU64) Re: Foro Yahoo VMS de usuarios argentinos ) Re: Foro Yahoo VMS de usuarios argentinos  Re: HP NAS Head and RMS Files / Re: Intel 64 bit Pentium seems to be on its way / Re: Intel 64 bit Pentium seems to be on its way / Re: Intel 64 bit Pentium seems to be on its way / Re: Intel 64 bit Pentium seems to be on its way ) Re: Interpreting image exit status values C Re: Linux breaches at an all-time high ... Windoze security better? - Re: Mirroring Files in real time across a WAN - Re: Mirroring Files in real time across a WAN  Re: New MiniMerge capability Re: OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kits O OpenVMS Pearl -  Excellent customer quotes. Reliability and Stability in action  OpenVMS Pearl - New Customer  RE: OpenVMS Pearl - New Customer Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Portents of VMS death  Re: Radeon 7500 on a PWS Rebranding of the 2Gb SwitchesP Rights - (was Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories). (wasP Re: Rights - (was Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories). P Re: Rights - (was Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories). P Re: Rights - (was Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories). P Re: Rights - (was Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories). & Re: Speed of IDE controllers in DS10 ?
 VAX Quorum Re: VMS SQL client Re: VMS SQL client# Re: What do these Macro codes mean? # RE: What do these Macro codes mean? P Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories. (was Re: Another fuP Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories. (was Re: Another fu0 Re: [The Inquirer] "HP trying to dump OpenVMS ?"0 Re: [The Inquirer] "HP trying to dump OpenVMS ?"0 Re: [The Inquirer] "HP trying to dump OpenVMS ?"0 Re: [The Inquirer] "HP trying to dump OpenVMS ?"  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 17:30:31 -0700 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)@ Subject: Analyst says SCO proof of stolen code very credible ...= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0306051630.70d371be@posting.google.com>   : more stolen code, just like Bill Gates did with Cutler and Dec mica code ...   u http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=PVND2SIIKBGOCQSNDBCCKH0CJUMEYJVN?articleID=10300314    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 17:35:43 -0700 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)4 Subject: Bugbear virus - this dog don't hunt on VMS!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0306051635.117b37c6@posting.google.com>   4 having vms mail is wonderful in times like these ...  ( http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9860   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:42:48 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGF Subject: CREATE/TERMINAL ... maintain focus in DECterm issuing command0 Message-ID: <00A20EF9.3268EA76@SendSpamHere.ORG>  0 Help save me some mouse movement and clicking...  G I use a CREATE/TERMINAL command to create a window for the debugger and H define logicals for the DBG$INPUT/OUTPUT pointing to the created DECtermH so that I can debug applications which write to the terminal or that are detached, etc.  F I'd like the DECterm to be created but for the "focus" (ie. the activeF DECterm) to remain in the DECterm issuing the CREATE/TERMINAL command.D Any ideas?  Perhaps there is a "secret" DECterm specific escape seq.* which can be output after CREATE/TERMINAL?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:33:06 GMT ) From: Andrew Balaam <abalaam@yahoo.co.uk> J Subject: Re: CREATE/TERMINAL ... maintain focus in DECterm issuing command5 Message-ID: <20030605.20330600.2136342205@imagnu.geo>   6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  C On 05/06/03, 19:42:48, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote regarding=20 > CREATE/TERMINAL ... maintain focus in DECterm issuing command:    2 > Help save me some mouse movement and clicking...  I > I use a CREATE/TERMINAL command to create a window for the debugger an=  d I > define logicals for the DBG$INPUT/OUTPUT pointing to the created DECte=  rmI > so that I can debug applications which write to the terminal or that a=  re > detached, etc.  I > I'd like the DECterm to be created but for the "focus" (ie. the active=   I > DECterm) to remain in the DECterm issuing the CREATE/TERMINAL command.=   F > Any ideas?  Perhaps there is a "secret" DECterm specific escape seq., > which can be output after CREATE/TERMINAL?   > --; > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001    =20  VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  6 >   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"  G Is that not in the domain of the window manager? I believe that some=20 I window managers can be set up not to give newly created windows the inpu=  t=20 focus automatically.=20    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:47:04 GMT + From: Ryan Moore <rmoore@rmoore.dyndns.org> J Subject: Re: CREATE/TERMINAL ... maintain focus in DECterm issuing command6 Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0306051340250.14227@jaipur>  2 On Thu, 5 Jun 2003 VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:H > I'd like the DECterm to be created but for the "focus" (ie. the activeH > DECterm) to remain in the DECterm issuing the CREATE/TERMINAL command.F > Any ideas?  Perhaps there is a "secret" DECterm specific escape seq., > which can be output after CREATE/TERMINAL?  E Your window manager manages focus.  DCL won't know anything about it. > You'll have to play with Motif settings to get this to happen.  C One option is to set focus so that it follows the mouse (instead of I clicking).  And set the /WINDOW_ATTRIBUTES so that the new DECterm window H isn't created where your current window is.  If your mouse stays in your2 original window, the new window won't steal focus.   -Ryan    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 00:20:17 GMT  From: Rob.Buxton@wcc.govt.nzY Subject: Re: Date issue in Winnt /  win2000 in files from vms throug pathworks advanced s $ Message-ID: <3edfdd42.15738062@news>  ( Can't help as I do not see this problem.D From my W2K Professional I see the same date / time as from a direct Session.D The only difference I see is the truncating of the .nn from the time on the W2k side.  8 We're running Pathworks 6.1 on VAX VMS under OpenVMS 7.2  ? On 4 Jun 2003 23:33:07 -0700, zeanette@hotmail.com (zea) wrote:   ? >Date issue in Winnt/win2000 in files from vms throug pathworks  >advanced server.  > @ >Our users can see the right date on a file in VMS but in WINxxxC >pathwork has change the date so all date looks the same. We really 2 >need to see the originaldate on our files, in NT.E >All this happened when we upgraded to Pathworks Advanced Server, V6.  >  >Has anyone any suggestions? >  >Have a great day. >/Zea    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 19:27:16 +0100* From: "John Travell" <john@travell.uk.net>) Subject: Re: diagnostic tools alphaServer 5 Message-ID: <bbo227$barob$1@ID-120847.news.dfncis.de>   9 "Jim Strehlow" <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote in message 7 news:4b6ec350.0306050945.38202d7b@posting.google.com... ; > What are good diagnostic tools for an OpenVMS AlphaServer  >  - free download >  - on the tools CD-ROM! >  - licensed additional software  > J > An OpenVMS AlphaServer (on software support but not on hardware support)H > frequently "locks up" where the DECwindows screen does not refresh and! > keyboard and mouse do not work.  > J > But, we can reboot and use the system for thirty minutes before it locks	 up again.  >  > Just replace the motherboard? , > Run what diagnostics? ( >>> SYS_EXER  ?? ) >  What model Alphaserver ?F Next time it hangs up try to halt it. If you get to the >>> prompt do:	 >>> crash J When it reboots you will have a dumpfile containing some evidence that may! help in identifying why it hangs. D If you have another Alphaserver running the same version of VMS copyI sys$system:sysdump.dmp to it, and analyse the dump on that other machine. C This is to prevent your work being interrupted by yet another hang.  do: % $ analyse/crash 'copy-of-sysdump.dmp'  SDA> show summary K !look at the process states, do they look normal. if not, the abnormalities  may be clues to the hang* !look up the SDA> CLUE HELP commands. e.g. SDA> clue mem/free SDA> clue mem/files 3 !see if there are any obvious resource exhaustions.   I I am not going to tell you everything, there is lots of help available.If J that is not enough, and you are willing to pay me a moderate amount I will do the analysis for you.   -- John Travell  VMS crashdump expertise for hire john@travell.uk.net  http://www.travell.uk.net/           --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.484 / Virus Database: 282 - Release Date: 27/05/2003    ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 19:14:59 +0000 (UTC)7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) ) Subject: Re: diagnostic tools alphaServer ( Message-ID: <bbo4rj$vjr$1@pcls4.std.com>  . JimStrehlow@data911.com (Jim Strehlow) writes:  I >An OpenVMS AlphaServer (on software support but not on hardware support) G >frequently "locks up" where the DECwindows screen does not refresh and   >keyboard and mouse do not work.  H Does the entire system lock up or just the DECwindows related processes?) (Can you telnet/ftp/set host/etc. to it?)   B It may be severely mistuned.  Clean out unnecessary settings from  modparams.dat and run autogen. --   -Mike    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 16:11:12 -0500 ( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon)) Subject: Re: diagnostic tools alphaServer 1 Message-ID: <03060516111213@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   ; > What are good diagnostic tools for an OpenVMS AlphaServer  >  - free download >  - on the tools CD-ROM! >  - licensed additional software  > J > An OpenVMS AlphaServer (on software support but not on hardware support)H > frequently "locks up" where the DECwindows screen does not refresh and! > keyboard and mouse do not work.  > M > But, we can reboot and use the system for thirty minutes before it locks up  > again. >  > Just replace the motherboard? , > Run what diagnostics? ( >>> SYS_EXER  ?? ) > + > Thank you for the information in advance.  >  > Jim Strehlow	 > Data911  > Alameda, CA, USA  O Check your pagefiles - I have seen small (or non-existent) pagefiles cause this  before.    $ SHOW MEM /FULL /FIL    John Brandon VMS Systems Administrator  Dallas Semiconductor first.last@dalsemi.com 972.371.4172 wk    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:57:27 -0400 & From: Jilly <jilly@clarityconnect.com>) Subject: Re: diagnostic tools alphaServer 2 Message-ID: <3EDFBCC7.AC4DB6C8@clarityconnect.com>  G This system REALLY need to have a serial console set up.  Then once the C system is hung you can use the serial console to gather PC samples, F force a crash and gather hardware register information.  If the serialB console also doesn't work when the system is hung then you need toG investigate firmware versions, hardware revisions and faulty hardware.  G I have not seen a diagnostic that is any better than VMS for exercising  a system ;*)   Jim Strehlow wrote:  > ; > What are good diagnostic tools for an OpenVMS AlphaServer  >  - free download >  - on the tools CD-ROM! >  - licensed additional software  > J > An OpenVMS AlphaServer (on software support but not on hardware support)H > frequently "locks up" where the DECwindows screen does not refresh and! > keyboard and mouse do not work.  > T > But, we can reboot and use the system for thirty minutes before it locks up again. >  > Just replace the motherboard? , > Run what diagnostics? ( >>> SYS_EXER  ?? ) > + > Thank you for the information in advance.  >  > Jim Strehlow	 > Data911  > Alameda, CA, USA   --  C Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NY 0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan+ 	- Mark.Jilson@hp.com				- since 1975 or so  	- http://www.jilly.baka.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 13:45:40 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>E Subject: Re: Encompass Message:  "Itanium: The Roadmap to the Future" ) Message-ID: <3EDF81B8.2EF2444D@istop.com>    Jason Brady wrote:F > reference).  Who is John Loether?  Exactly what constitutes a "great > full breakfast"?  * <very blunt mode on, apologies in advance>  L John Lother was a great speaker. Incredible speaker. He is one (amongst manyH Digits) who had convinced me that Alpha was the future and that IA64 wasX architecturally flawed. He is the one who keeps audiences awake with great presentation.  N Unfortunatly, I had the misfortune to hear him speak post-Alpha-murder, and myL opinion of him changed. Now, his graphs show IA64 surpassing Alpha etc etc. N Yes, the guy has a family to support and needs his paycheck so he needs to toeK his employer's line. But that makes his presentations worthless, especially ! once you've heard his jokes once.    </very blunt mode>  N But if you have never heard him speak, he is worth a listen. Just bear in mindN that he is simply forced to toe the corporate party line and you're not reallyB hearing him speak, you're hearing Carly's wishes expressed by him.  M I would have had much respect for him if he had resigned on June 25 2001. And ? then, I would have gone out of my way to hear him speak freely.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 17:53:58 -0700 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)! Subject: Firewall for VMS / TRU64 < Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0306051653.2b54938@posting.google.com>   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bbnobs$bde$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > F > "TCPware's packet filtering capability complements existing firewall > J > security by providing an additional security layer on internal networks. > J > It can prevent your site from receiving datagrams from certain networks  > or hosts.  > K > Datagrams can be filtered by protocol (IP, ICMP, UDP, or TCP), source and  > 7 > destination address, or source and destination port."  > E > Sorry Bob but TCPware don't agree with you either. Unless you don't $ > understand what complements means. > - > This BTW is from the TCPware documentation.  > 	 > regards  > Andrew Harrison   ; wrong Andrew, TCPware complements VMS security ... remember 0 this ... and this box wasn't running TCPware ...  * http://www.pointsecure.com/Defconwhite.pdf   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 18:04:07 -0700 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)% Subject: Re: Firewall for VMS / TRU64 = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0306051704.3cf0f71d@posting.google.com>   ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3EDE950E.B5BF103D@fsi.net>... > J > Well, the burden of proof, I'm sorry to say, is on you. Can "it" be doneH > with TCPware? Provide effective firewall capabilities without actually+ > installing specialized firewall software?  > B > If you can do it, post your data - the config.'s, the tests, theG > results, etc. - and it will be a feather in your cap. Maybe even land  > you a new job, y'never know  > H > Make unsubstantiated claims and they will be the albatross around your > neck.  > @ > A word to the wise - if you're at all open to it: Yes, this isH > "comp.os.vms", not "comp.os.balanced-viewpoint". Still, it's one thingG > to be firm in your beliefs and convictions, as you clearly are - like F > many of us. It's something else entirely to be simply a cheerleader,F > with no proof or evidence, just empty claims (say: "sales-critter"),I > vis-a-vis claims about the futures of Alpha/NT, Alpha itself, VMS, etc.  > C > In short, put your evidence where your keyboard (read: mouth) is.   > you dare challenge the defcon9 results?  Well, Davey, I'll bet< I could set up a TCPware FTP "CAPTIVE" account, give you the; username and password, and watch you try to get out of that > iron box ... Dave vs. a ftp captive vms account, and of course@ you would lose ... I guess even you don't know the real power of VMS security ...   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 12:40:41 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 2 Subject: Re: Foro Yahoo VMS de usuarios argentinos3 Message-ID: <fIFUhZxnWZTk@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <60063a4.0306050638.697bcc59@posting.google.com>, userdecar@yahoo.com.ar (UserDECAr) writes: ? > Now in "american english", the only language in the world :-)   B    Your knowledge of our language is vastly overestimated.  In the+    future you may want to avail yourself of      http://rinkworks.com/dialect/  D    "Thar is an ackive group of Arjuntine users of DEC. To join them,!     travel t'th' follerin' link:    /    "http://ar.groups.yahoo.com/group/userdecar/   F    "Good goo'bye! Fry mah hide!! Fry mah hide!! Fry mah hide!! Fry mah6    hide!! Fry mah hide!! Fry mah hide!! Fry mah hide!"   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 19:27:40 -0700 # From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) 2 Subject: Re: Foro Yahoo VMS de usuarios argentinos= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0306051827.6aa164ef@posting.google.com>   e bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<bbknvl$9jgmi$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>... 8 > In article <00A20D8D.879D3340@ssrl.slac.stanford.edu>,Q > 	winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes: _ > > In article <3EDD5686.159C857E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > >>UserDECAr wrote: > >>> A > >>> Se encuentra activo el forio de usuarios argentinos de DEC. B > >>> Para acceder al mismo, hagalo a travez del siguiente enlace: > >>> 1 > >>> http://ar.groups.yahoo.com/group/userdecar/  > >>>  > >>> Hasta la vista!!!!!!!  > >>I > >>Are we now going to see DIVX data posted to this newsgroup as well as 3 > >>the other VMS newsgroups (especially vmsnet.*)?  > > N > > Dude, just cause it's in Spanish doesn't mean it's off-topic.  The guy has= > > set up a yahoo group for Argentine users of DEC products.  > > A > >  Lista de discusion para usuarios Digital (DEC) de Argentina.  > >  Alpha, VAX, PDP11, etc. > C > While true, I would still recommend against having anything to do I > with it.  Apparently SPAM is not only considered "OK" in South America, G > it is a way of life.  I don't even use YAHOO in this country, I would : > never even consider using one of the foreign variations.D > (I made the mistake of subscribing to a COBOL mailing list throughF > SourceForge which turned out to be hosted out of Brazil.  Since thenB > I now receive 30-40 Portugese SPAM Emails a day.  And while I amL > multi-lingual, Portugese is not one them making them even more valueless.)9 You could always forward them to Fabio for translation :) H Seriously, any "public" posting of anything with an @ in it is liable to< be harvested for use by spammers and usenet is no exception.A The vast majority of spam that I (or rather my "posting account")  get comes from the USA. . Also learning other languages may be useful...E VMS will be running in the "third world" long after the last US based  systems are retired. Phil   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 14:59:30 -0700 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) & Subject: Re: HP NAS Head and RMS Files< Message-ID: <cf15391e.0306051359.3990394@posting.google.com>  g Hal Kuff <kuff@tessco.com> wrote in message news:<kuff-994910.04351324052003@news-east.giganews.com>... G > We're looking to use an HP NAS head (two NFS file share servers that  F > bit map synch across a network link) to shadow RMS journaling files  > between two sites over a T-3.   B Wow, that seems like an unusual way to do data replication between sites with VMS systems.   F I presume you're shooting for essentially zero data loss upon the lossC of a datacenter, by recovering from an RMS file backup plus the RMS ? journal files since the backup?  And that your requirements for E recovery time aren't too stringent -- perhaps 10s of minutes to maybe @ even an hour or multiple hours are available for you to recover?  < Why not use Host-Based Volume Shadowing, or controller-based@ replication (in synchronous mode) such as StorageWorks DRM or XP Continuous Access?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:06:08 GMT & From: Rick Jones <foo@bar.baz.invalid>8 Subject: Re: Intel 64 bit Pentium seems to be on its way1 Message-ID: <kELDa.2056$mV2.488@news.cpqcorp.net>   P Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:= > Both Opteron numbers are based on the 32bit Intel compiler, 5 > performance will improve with the 64bit compilers.    @ Are we talking about a 64-bit Intel x86 compiler, or a different	 compiler?   - > 20% would be a reasonable initial estimate.   ? Out of curiousity, how do you arrive at that estimate?  By what B quantity will cache pressure increase in the SPECfp2000 suite whenE going LP64 (Linux) or P64 (Windows) versus the gains from having more < registers in 64-bit mode in the Opteron than in 32-bit mode?  
 rick jones --  F these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)A feel free to post, OR email to raj in cup.hp.com  but NOT BOTH...    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 12:56:08 -0500 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 8 Subject: Re: Intel 64 bit Pentium seems to be on its way3 Message-ID: <j+1v3JCmYhVX@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <bbnmfb$aqg$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:? >> "Milton" <mbhewitt.SPAMBLOCK@optonline.net> wrote in message 5 >> news:pfasdvkteps2ktqh2hpdma8qij3hp3f9c4@4ax.com...  >>  6 >>>On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:37:07 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge"+ >>><my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> wrote:  >>>  >>>How about Cray, Inc?  >>>  >>  O >> http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_543~56268,00.h  >> tml >>  H >>>Kinda shoots the shit outta yer argument that Opteron is *only* a 2-4 >>>way server chip >>>  >>   >>  O >> Not really.  Depends on what you call a "Supercomputer".  We've been selling L >> "Supercomputers" based on ES40's with quadrics switches.  One can surmiseJ >> that "10,000" CPU's aren't going to be in one box.  So this is really aF >> loosely coupled Linux "Supercomputer" good for distributed parallelM >> computing.  Frankly, IA64 would have been a better choice - since it blows O >> Opteron away for FP performance - which is what the referenced system really 	 >> needs.  >>   > A > BS currently the 1.8 GHZ Opteron does 1219 SPECfp compared with H > 1431 for Itanium II. 17% faster isn't blowing anyone out of the water. >   B 	Yeah but... selling a tiny future here , Madison ships month-end.4 	Opteron , is it shipping in 4-way configs yet?  No.E 	If you look at hardware availability on Spec, you see it is due out   	July 2003:   N http://www.specbench.org/cpu2000/results/res2003q2/cpu2000-20030421-02116.html 	 ; 	So Opteron should be pitted against Madison, not McKinley.   5 	Madison is rumored to hit a respectable 2000 SpecFp. * 	That would blow Opteron out of the water.  C > Once you get to SPECratefp numbers then the differential vanishes D > almost entirely (we are after all talking about servers here) 49.32 > for a 4 way Itanium 2, 49.2 for a 4 way Opteron.   	An Opteron you can't buy.  E 	AND, wrong source.  Itanium 2 does better than that.  Need to spend  G 	some time in aceshardware.com or realworldtech.com, you get some good  / 	refs there.  Don't want to stay stale ya know!   M http://www.specbench.org/cpu2000/results/res2003q2/cpu2000-20030505-02162.asc   -    SPECfp_rate_base2000                  57.8 -    SPECfp_rate2000                       58.4   ; 	But McKinley - aka Itanium 2 - is old news in a few weeks.    > @ > It would appear that your jibe about Opterons sweet spot being? > 4 CPU's is better applied to Itanium which currently based on > > the benchmark you chose SPECfp has a sweet spot of 1-2 CPU's >   < 	Yeah, if you choose the wrong vendor or have stale sources./ 	Too bad Opteron in a 4-way isn't shipping yet.   I > Both Opteron numbers are based on the 32bit Intel compiler, performance J > will improve with the 64bit compilers. 20% would be a reasonable initial > estimate.   
 	Doubt it.   > E > Cray will not be shipping 32 bit systems and they are probably more E > interested in the fact that you can get a configured Opteron system E > for 1/6th of the price of a configured IA-64 that and the fact that D > Opteron has much much better thermal characteristics than IA-64 atB > 50% of IA-64, building a system with 10,000 130 watt CPU's makesC > much less sense than building a system with 10,000 70 watt CPU's.  >    	Yep.   @ > You should follow the advice I have been giving Bob, don't hitB > the send button until you are sure you know what you are talking > about.  = 	Agreed.  Review current benchmarks, re-write, then hit send.    				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:53:33 GMT 9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> 8 Subject: Re: Intel 64 bit Pentium seems to be on its way1 Message-ID: <h5ODa.2069$y73.923@news.cpqcorp.net>   K An interesting mixture of vapor, new, and old to come to the conclusion you  want.     K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> ; wrote in message news:bbnmfb$aqg$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...  > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:@ > > "Milton" <mbhewitt.SPAMBLOCK@optonline.net> wrote in message6 > > news:pfasdvkteps2ktqh2hpdma8qij3hp3f9c4@4ax.com... > > 7 > >>On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:37:07 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge" , > >><my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> wrote: > >> > >>How about Cray, Inc? > >> > >  > > L http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_543~56268,00.h > > tml  > > I > >>Kinda shoots the shit outta yer argument that Opteron is *only* a 2-4  > >>way server chip  > >> > >  > > H > > Not really.  Depends on what you call a "Supercomputer".  We've been selling E > > "Supercomputers" based on ES40's with quadrics switches.  One can  surmise K > > that "10,000" CPU's aren't going to be in one box.  So this is really a G > > loosely coupled Linux "Supercomputer" good for distributed parallel H > > computing.  Frankly, IA64 would have been a better choice - since it blows I > > Opteron away for FP performance - which is what the referenced system  really
 > > needs. > >  > A > BS currently the 1.8 GHZ Opteron does 1219 SPECfp compared with H > 1431 for Itanium II. 17% faster isn't blowing anyone out of the water. > C > Once you get to SPECratefp numbers then the differential vanishes D > almost entirely (we are after all talking about servers here) 49.32 > for a 4 way Itanium 2, 49.2 for a 4 way Opteron. > @ > It would appear that your jibe about Opterons sweet spot being? > 4 CPU's is better applied to Itanium which currently based on > > the benchmark you chose SPECfp has a sweet spot of 1-2 CPU's > I > Both Opteron numbers are based on the 32bit Intel compiler, performance J > will improve with the 64bit compilers. 20% would be a reasonable initial > estimate.  > E > Cray will not be shipping 32 bit systems and they are probably more E > interested in the fact that you can get a configured Opteron system E > for 1/6th of the price of a configured IA-64 that and the fact that D > Opteron has much much better thermal characteristics than IA-64 atB > 50% of IA-64, building a system with 10,000 130 watt CPU's makesC > much less sense than building a system with 10,000 70 watt CPU's.  > @ > You should follow the advice I have been giving Bob, don't hitB > the send button until you are sure you know what you are talking > about. > 	 > regards  > Andrew Harrison J > > The chip itself isn't designed to scale above 8 processors, and really has J > > the sweet spot set at 4.  Is it possible to design a set of core logic and I > > marry this chip to a system with lot's of processors?  Yup.  But that  isn't  > > it's design. > >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 23:02:17 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>8 Subject: Re: Intel 64 bit Pentium seems to be on its way2 Message-ID: <bbobda$eli$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>  
 Gentlemen,  P In my view the question if the IA64 is a better server cpu then the the Opteron # in big servers, is totaly academic.   N The point is that AMD will have / has a 64 bit cpu range starting from the 64 O bit Athlon (for the desktop), and 64 bit Opteron chips designed for 1, 2, or 4   cpu servers.  N Now I'm sure we will all agree that potentionaly, in numbers, this covers the J vast majority of all  Intel class computer systems that are sold, desktop  systems and small servers.  L For most software developers this is very nice, that is where they can sell  their 64 bit stuff !!   M Now if the AMD chips are accompanied by similar cpu's from Intel, this would  Q make the IA64 a niche cpu for high-end servers, instead of the industry standard  5   cpu that Intel (and HP and Compaq) were aiming for.   Q What will this mean for the price of a IA64? The development costs are enormous,  N and if those costs are spread over a relatively low number of sold chips, the  chips will be very expensive.   L In this scenario I would prefer that other chip that was 'to expensive' etc.         Fred Kleinsorge wrote:K > The figure appears to me to be complete hogswallow, someones random guess   > based on a few public sources. > L > The IA64 has, and will continue to have *leading* FP performance, and nearN > leading integer performance in the 64-bit space.  Vendors from HP to IBM are2 > bringing more and bigger IA64 systems to market. > L > Most sober analysis shows IA64 and Power as the leading 64-bit chips goingI > forward, with a potential for Opteron (there's a whole lotta "ifs" with J > AMD - the chip isn't a desktop chip, it's really a 2-4 way server chip -L > with no serious server system vendors).  SPARC has no chance of keeping upM > with any of these three (unless perhaps SUN has Fujitsu take over all their  > future design work ;-).  > M > But it *is* in your interest to try and talk down IA64, because you need to  > delay and hope for a miracle.  > M > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> = > wrote in message news:bbhrf7$8ca$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...  >  >>Dirk Munk wrote: >>= >>Current Itanium sales figures would suggest that the sooner 1 >>Intel have a competitive 64 bit CPU the better.  >>- >>http://212.100.234.54/content/61/30966.html  >>6 >>The register recently reported that a grand total of= >>1,963 IA-64 based systems were sold in the first quarter of ! >>this year, down 31% on Q4 2002.  >>@ >>At an average of less than 2 CPU's per system thats a whopping: >>3800 CPU's not enough to even register in the 64 bit CPU	 >>market.  >>? >>These numbers would suggest that the IDC estimate that 25,000 > >>Itanium based systems would ship this year is very very very
 >>optimistic.  >>	 >>Regards  >>Andrew Harrison  >> >>K >>>The German magazine CT has a editorial called "CPU whispers" (translated 
 >>>of course)  >>> I >>>In the editorial of 19 May the editors give us some very good evidence 7 >>>that a 64 bit Pentium class Intel CPU is on its way.  >>> J >>>The succesor of the Pentium 4 has the code name Prescott, and a certainH >>>mr. Hans de Vries took a very good look at the Die plot pictures that >>>were published of this CPU. >>>sG >>>He concludes that the cpu has two 32 bit integer kernels that can bedJ >>>combined to one 64 bit kernel. Futhermore he concludes that the CPU hasJ >>>a 40 bit memory address bus, just like the 64 bit AMD Athlon / Opteron.F >>>However internally the CPU is 32 still bit wide, and certain 64 bit >>>registers are missing.w >>>0J >>>Their conclusion: we can expect a 64 bit Pentium class Intel CPU is the >>>second half on 2004.s >>>aH >>>At the same time I saw a HP powerpoint presentation which states thatG >>>Alpha servers will be will be sold untill >>> at least <<< 2006, andfG >>>that support for Alpha systems will continue untill >>> at least <<<i >  > 2011.  > K >>>No statements were made about when the PA-Risc systems will no longer be I >>>sold, or no longer be supported. However the arrow on time line of thes= >>>sheet ended at the same point as the arrow of the Alpha's.  >>>  >> >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 23:00:40 +0100l+ From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.org.uk>.2 Subject: Re: Interpreting image exit status values8 Message-ID: <1cfvdvksa6ejmo9cg2fsi14blmkupe2rqp@4ax.com>  K On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 17:01:17 GMT, "James Wilkinson" <elementyl@hotmail.com>  wrote:  / >"John Laird" <john@laird-towers.org.uk> wrote: F >> <fx: shudders>  Call me old-fashioned, but I'd prefer to start withE >> a traceback and only go to process dumps as a last, final, resort.e >oM >Why not run the program in a command file and re-define SYS$ERROR to capturee2 >the traceback to an appropriately named log file?  K Precisely how it is run (the user accounts are captive), and how we attemptPK to get an error log out on abnormal exits.  We were getting empty files, sorI my colleague reinstated a previous version of the captive login procedure H which used to explicitly open an error file and define sys$error to thatG logical unit.  He tells me we now have one successful traceback (out ofeI three !).  Mind you, it is an accvio in a module we have never previously(J seen give errors, but that is not to say it is not genuine.  Progress of a sort.E     	Johns   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 17:57:26 -0700h( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)L Subject: Re: Linux breaches at an all-time high ... Windoze security better?= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0306051657.7b400a70@posting.google.com>n   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bbnnos$bbg$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...p > Bob Ceculski wrote:i > > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bbn10k$3hg$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...- > >  > >>Bob Ceculski wrote:  > >>3 > >>>well Andrew, unix/linux security is worse thank- > >>>windoze ... that's what it says here ...o > >>> - > >>>http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=98457 > >>- > >>Another posting you should not have made.t > >>- > >>UNIX and Linux are not the same when will. > >>you work that out ?i > >>0 > >>This article referes to security issues with- > >>Linux not with any UNIX operating system.- > >>$ > >>Are you some sort of masochist ? > >> > >>Regards  > >>Andrew Harrisoni > >  > >   > > that isn't what SCO says ... >  > Ohh dear another mistake.s > = > SCO is alledging that some SCO IP leaked from UNIX to Linuxg? > they are not suggesting that all the Linux kernel and layeredn > utilites are based on SCO IP.- > A > The IP stack supplied with OpenVMS comes origionally from Tru64 < > does this mean that every Tru64 security problem is also a% > problem for OpenVMS, of course not.  > A > Nor is it true the other way round either. Which is essentiallyo6 > the logic you are attempting to apply to UNIX/linux. > ? > Every posting you send ends up with more undignified flailing : > about from your standpoint, do yourself a favour, try to; > understand the subject in hand before posting rather thant, > learning about it the hard way afterwards. > 	 > Regardst > Andrew Harrisone  < why don't we trot on down to the CERT site and check out the: unix/slowaris cert advisories compared to the VMS ones ...% care to take a guess who wins EASILY?a   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 15:07:29 -0700c1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) 6 Subject: Re: Mirroring Files in real time across a WAN< Message-ID: <cf15391e.0306051407.82e826c@posting.google.com>  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3ED0FD16.D43432EC@istop.com>...M* > Isn't HBVS restricted to cluster nodes ?   Yes.  R > Also, what is the minimum speed for a link between 2 nodes to maintain cluster ?  A According to the Cluster Software SPD, 10 megabits.  T3 (DS-3) ism roughly 45 megabits.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 15:15:58 -0700:1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)n6 Subject: Re: Mirroring Files in real time across a WAN= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0306051415.5b47d916@posting.google.com>N  g Hal Kuff <kuff@tessco.com> wrote in message news:<kuff-9BB1DE.10192825052003@news-east.giganews.com>...nJ >    We have HSG-80 and EVA SAN systems... it looksl like the HP NAS head K > is the way to go with the tip from Stan Quayle on how to setup the share!   E I'd suggest using one of the boxes from CNT, SANcastle, SAN Valley oraB another vendor to link your SANs over IP, and use Data Replication! Manager / Continuous Access.  See C http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/sanworks/drm/documentation.html,d@ particularly "Data Replication Manager over an Internet Protocol^ Inter-site link" at ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/products/sanworks/techdoc/drm/EK-DRMIP-AA-C01.pdf   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 17:46:48 -0700u1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) % Subject: Re: New MiniMerge capability < Message-ID: <cf15391e.0306051646.bd0e272@posting.google.com>  f young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<p69Ru6Qc7SUe@eisner.encompasserve.org>...N > "New Host-Based MiniMerge for Host Based Volume Shadowing (HBVS) - Design isP > underway to create a new Host-based implementation of the MiniMerge capability  E I'm very pleased to see this direction taken -- I believe it provideshA a better long-term solution, and fits well with the philosophy ofuF taking the unique value formerly available only with a single vendor's@ hardware (like the MSCP controller Volume Shadowing Assists) andB moving that capability up into VMS itself, so that the same uniqueE value can continue to be provided even on industry-standard hardware.S  < For the folks who were patiently waiting for the HSG80-basedF Mini-Merge capability, and who will now have to wait a bit longer, theF information in my DECUS presentation "OpenVMS Volume Shadowing Merge &C Copy Performance" at http://www2.openvms.org/kparris/ (note the "2"j after www) may be helpful.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 14:41:39 -0700D1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)t( Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kits= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0306051341.2f382ee4@posting.google.com>n  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3ECFBA26.8892489C@istop.com>...nM > Now, if HP wanted to make some money out of hobbyists, it could simply selleM > the condist package at a very reasonable price (say $100 USD) to hobbyists,v  F Actually, HP seems perfectly willing to give folks a CONDIST package. D If you become an HP Certified Professional for OpenVMS or Tru64, youE seem to get a free CONOLD/CONDIST subscription for the associated O/So	 platform.n  F For OpenVMS v7 Systems Administrator, that means passing just one testF ($100 USD at Prometric), filling out a Web application, and submitting your test results via fax.  See F http://h10017.www1.hp.com/certification/region/na/csa/bcs/openvms.html   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 14:20:15 -0700o1 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski)hX Subject: OpenVMS Pearl -  Excellent customer quotes. Reliability and Stability in action= Message-ID: <857e9e41.0306051320.6effbaad@posting.google.com>M  F The following are some quotes regarding VMS from A.S Thomas, Inc which@ I am sure you will enjoy.  This is being sent with the customers	 approval.   
 Warm Regards,u Sue)) _________________________________________o' Direct quotes from our customer/partnerd  E A. S. Thomas, Inc. had been a DIGITAL OEM since 1971.  We were one of E the first adopters of VAX and VMS.  We have many customers world widee, who are very pleased with their VMS systems.  9 Utilizing a conservative backup policy, stable OS's and a B robust/stable database (RMS), A. S. Thomas, Inc. and its customers8 have not lost a business critical file in over 25 years.  D With the advent of VMS, RAID 0, 3 and 5, performance and reliabilityF have soared.  We have customers who are running critical manufacturingF and business applications who have not rebooted their clusters in overD three years.  Patches have been applied, software upgraded, etc. but6 the systems have remained up and available throughout.  D We are able to perform complete system backups of bootable disks andD restorations to disks without taking the system down.  These backups< work flawlessly over networks and spanning removable media."B FYI: Our in-house accounting system was converted from a PDP-11/34F running RSX-11M to a MicroVAX-3500 18 years ago.  The MicroVAX-3500 is6 still being used for this and many other applications.  
 Sincerely, Robert F. Thomas A. S. Thomas, Inc.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 14:21:15 -0700 1 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski)h% Subject: OpenVMS Pearl - New Customerw= Message-ID: <857e9e41.0306051321.4f5b0899@posting.google.com>a   -----Original Message----- From: Skonetski, Susan  $ Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 1:43 PM To: Skonetski, Susan? Subject: OpenVMS Pearl - New VMS customer - ok for distributioni    F Please note that I have removed the customer name since we do not have permission to use it.h   Thank you Renato.p  
 Warm Regards,  Sue	   -----Original Message----- From: 	Albuquerque, Renato  % Sent:	Tuesday, June 03, 2003 10:45 AMe To:	Skonetski, Susan" Subject:	New OpenVMS Site - Brazil   	Hi Suer  @   I can not submit a win form because the equipment were sold inC Europe, but I want to inform you that we have a new OpenVMS site inlC Brazil! It is formed by an ES40 and a DS20E in cluster, with MA8000-E storage. Ericsson was the solution integrator. Customer name is ****.1D This system runs CABS2000 from SchumbergerSema (billing application)D and will enter production mode next September. The Customer has told- me that they intend to buy a GS160 next year!s  
   Regards,   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 15:55:48 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>V) Subject: RE: OpenVMS Pearl - New Customer 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEHHHFAA.tom@kednos.com>w   Sue,  E Encouraging.  We have a domestic customer that purchased 35 ES40s to ,C whom we supplied an equal number of PL/I compilers or PL/I runtimesu to support their applicationse   regardsb Tom    >-----Original Message----- 9 >From: Sue Skonetski [mailto:susan_skonetski@hotmail.com]n& >Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 2:21 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com& >Subject: OpenVMS Pearl - New Customer >i >n >-----Original Message-----o >From: Skonetski, Susan % >Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 1:43 PMi >To: Skonetski, Susann@ >Subject: OpenVMS Pearl - New VMS customer - ok for distribution >- >-G >Please note that I have removed the customer name since we do not havea >permission to use it. >R >Thank you Renato. >h >Warm Regards, >Sue	3 >B >-----Original Message-----o >From: 	Albuquerque, Renato  o& >Sent:	Tuesday, June 03, 2003 10:45 AM >To:	Skonetski, Susany# >Subject:	New OpenVMS Site - Brazile >C >	Hi Sue >oA >  I can not submit a win form because the equipment were sold inlD >Europe, but I want to inform you that we have a new OpenVMS site inD >Brazil! It is formed by an ES40 and a DS20E in cluster, with MA8000F >storage. Ericsson was the solution integrator. Customer name is ****.E >This system runs CABS2000 from SchumbergerSema (billing application)tE >and will enter production mode next September. The Customer has toldo. >me that they intend to buy a GS160 next year! >  >  Regards,A >a >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.484 / Virus Database: 282 - Release Date: 5/27/2003, >  ---e& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.484 / Virus Database: 282 - Release Date: 5/27/2003   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 18:02:44 GMT , From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death5 Message-ID: <bbo0k0$blvj6$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>   ( In article <3EDF72B0.7C01A77@istop.com>,- 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:- > Bill Gunshannon wrote:E >> (or any University that I know of) lawyers.  Even in the case of apB >> not-for-profit school like us the use would still be considered( >> commercial because we are a business. > O > If the machines are used by faculty or school administrator, I agree with theaL > above. They are using those machines as part of their jobs. (especially if' > machines are used to run the school).r > P > But if the machines are used by students to write assignments and/or generallyO > muck around, then couldn't you find a way to see this as non-commercial use ?n  @ Like I said, it isn't how you or I or any of us on c.o.v see it.@ Education is a business, even if we are not-for-profit (I forget? the IRS classification) and that makes all use here commercial.p? I have to buy licenses for all the billyware used by my facultyp? members and by all the machines in the labs.  The lack of moneyi? for licenses or a valid, usable education license is what keepseB my PDP-11's (except for those running Ultrix-11 or BSD) from being@ used.  The same is true of my numerous VAXen and the one Alpha I; have on which I have no choice but to run FreeBSD or Linux.e  @ What do you mean by "write assignments"?  Surely you don't thinkC a student is going to choose EDT over MS Word for those term papers0@ they need to do.    "Muck around"? Been out of school long?  YouC seem to think the students have all kinds of free time for playing.5B Not likely.  If the machines are not strongly integrated into realE courses, they will see no use at all.  I could get them into probablyoB four or five courses right now, maybe more later.  But it wouldn't? be easy.  VMS is not a "general use OS"  as most people see it.u9 It is not going to win without a lot of push from behind.y   > M > Consider the following scenario: you provide the machines, but the studentsyI > provide their hobbyist licences. Would this change your lawyer's view ?a  = You have no idea how universities work, do you?  I have labs.e@ They belong to the University.  I maintain them.  that's the way? it works.  If I have an AS2100 running in my server room, whichr@ students Hobbyist License is loaded?  Do I have to unload it and@ load another when the next student wants to use the machine. And? to answer your last question, "no".  We have had students want n? their special software loaded onto machines in the lab and they.@ always promise to give me a copy of their "license".  of course,> they also don't understand why I can't put that license on all the machines in the lab.  :-)m   > M > In fairness, I agree that hobbyist in an educational shouldn't be seen as a- > long term solution.   @ It isn't even a short term solution, it is not doable.  But thatE doesn't preclude an educational license with all the same permissionse as the Hobbyist License.  F >                      But I see the potential to abose those licencesN > temporarily to show HP the true potential of a "real" educational programme.O > (eg: if you make it work wonders by cheating, then it becomes a lot easier toe- > convince HP to setup a real edu programme.)   B People have been "cheating" for years now on the PDP-11 OSes.  theB result is there is no Hobbyist License and there likely never willF be.  I also think this is what has kept me from being able to convinceC anyone at Mentec to allow me any kind of an education grant either.sF (I can't even get anyone at Mentec to talk to me officialy!!) The onlyE thing likely to be accomplished by "cheating" on the Hobbyist License F would be the end of the Hobbyist License.  In any case, the University= would not allow it and I, personally, would not do it either.    bill   -- MJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 13:55:32 -0400o* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death) Message-ID: <3EDF8407.BCE40D93@istop.com>-   Bill Gunshannon wrote:G > No student would have enough experience with VMS after only two yearsb2 > to make any kind of a valid statement like that.  M False. If a student gets a good impression of VMS during schooling, they will0J mention VMS when their employer seeks solutions. How do you think Linux isM making inroads into businesses ? Because newly hired geeks mention that their P experience with Linux is positive and that they are convinced it can do the job.  G > It is necessary to make it possible for VMS to be seen as a long term"I > serious CS subject.  Then, maybe, with a lot of work, professors can bel7 > convinced to incorporate it into their courses again.m  1 Fair point. However, you have to start somewhere.!  J My suggestion, which I had made to Mr Marcello some time ago, is to have aK guest lecturer that teaches about clustering. The guest lecturer would be a4E VMS bigot (your local VMS ambassador for instance, or Keith Parris).    B Then, you provide a mini cluster for the kids to play with. 5 or 6 workstations, 2 boot servers. 0 They can then play with the DLM, SYSMAN etc etc.  K With the "guest lectures", the students (and faculty who may attend just tosL see what the guest lecturer is saying) will see how pityful their fancy unixJ clusters are compared to VMS, and more importantly, the students will alsoM learn about the important features of a cluster for data integrity etc, learn N about issues with volume shadowing in a cluster, quorum etc. And they will see where Unix has flaws.l  N Faculty gets to see that it is to their advantage to teach clustering on a VMSK based solution so that their student then come better prepared. VMS has thetN clustering today that Unix will have in 5-10 years. What better way to prepare courses/students ?   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 19:30:15 -0000o4 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death6 Message-ID: <20030605193015.18163.qmail@gacracker.org>  @ On Thu, 05 Jun 2003, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote:   <snip>  M > With the "guest lectures", the students (and faculty who may attend just to N > see what the guest lecturer is saying) will see how pityful their fancy unix  > clusters are compared to VMS,   N It would probably go across better if described as giving a more complete viewJ of operating systems and their pros and cons.  "Nya-nya *ix clusters suck"8 isn't going to go down well with someone from academia.   L >                               and more importantly, the students will alsoO > learn about the important features of a cluster for data integrity etc, learnFP > about issues with volume shadowing in a cluster, quorum etc. And they will see > where Unix has flaws.e  M If you put it like that, they'll promptly look for every area where *ix beatshN VMS.  Without action from HP, the stats in my .sig will just move in the wrong direction. e     Doc. -- .K OpenVMS.  Eight out of ten hackers                   https://vmsbox.cjb.netyK           prefer *other* operating systems.        http://althacker.cjb.net3   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 18:57:14 GMT , From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death5 Message-ID: <bbo3q9$blruh$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>e  ) In article <3EDF8407.BCE40D93@istop.com>,n- 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:u > Bill Gunshannon wrote:H >> No student would have enough experience with VMS after only two years3 >> to make any kind of a valid statement like that.T > O > False. If a student gets a good impression of VMS during schooling, they willh3 > mention VMS when their employer seeks solutions. t  > But, what do you think the student is going to be doing on the> VMS machine in order to get that good impression?  Even in the? CS Curriculum 90% of computer use is stuff like Word Processingo@ and Power Point Presentations.  VMS looses big time there.  What> solutions applicable to business do you think they will get in@ that short period of time?  It is only when VMS is re-integrated? into OS classes, Networking classes, Architecture classes, etc.?? that the students will have any knowledge of VMS that is likely6A to make them recommend it over Windows when they get in a positonl to actually do so.  L >                                                  How do you think Linux is# > making inroads into businesses ? o  + Marketing.  marketing.  and more marketing.t  O >                                  Because newly hired geeks mention that theirtR > experience with Linux is positive and that they are convinced it can do the job.  B And in order to get that level of experience, these "geeks" had toE spend hour after hour using Linux for things.  Granted, many of thoseuC things were wastes of time, like playing DOOM, but it provided bothn@ experience and comfort at the console.  What do you propose thatD students with little free time do at the "$" prompt on a VMS machineD to get that same level of experience and comfort?  VMS has to become? common in th environment again first.  Then, maybe, people will ? become comfortable with it again.  The biggest possible gain in F getting back into the EDU environment is the possibility that at leastH some of the current crop of opensource toys may get ported to VMS giving7 those students something to actually do on the machine.g   > H >> It is necessary to make it possible for VMS to be seen as a long termJ >> serious CS subject.  Then, maybe, with a lot of work, professors can be8 >> convinced to incorporate it into their courses again. > 3 > Fair point. However, you have to start somewhere.u  B What do you think some of us have been doing?  Of course, you alsoD have to realize how difficult a task it is when those on either side of us don't seem to care.o   > L > My suggestion, which I had made to Mr Marcello some time ago, is to have aM > guest lecturer that teaches about clustering. The guest lecturer would be a G > VMS bigot (your local VMS ambassador for instance, or Keith Parris).    @ And where do you propose to have him lecture?  Which class wouldD his lecture be appropriate?  How do you get the professor interested? in bring him in?  Every lesson from beginning to end is alreadyuA prepared.  There are no free days.  With bad weather cancelations @ (at least here in the frozen north, where winter doesn't seem tiA have ended even yet) it is hard enough to cover all the necessarylB material.  So that leaves things like an invite to the student ACMF chapter.  Which is not mandatory and therefore likely to be very closeA to empty.  Until VMS finds its way back into the mainstream of CSe@ curriculum, it will remain an obscure, niche OS that most people think died years ago.I   > D > Then, you provide a mini cluster for the kids to play with. 5 or 6  > workstations, 2 boot servers.   ? Now, we're back to the license issue.  Do you know how much theeF license for that alone would cost, not even considering the equipment.9 More than my entire budget for equipement for the year!!!t  2 > They can then play with the DLM, SYSMAN etc etc.  A Play?  And where do you think all this free time is going to comef7 from?  Just what do you think students do in college?  t   > M > With the "guest lectures", the students (and faculty who may attend just toe) > see what the guest lecturer is saying) o  F Faculty don't do anything they are not paid to do.  Most of them don'tA even attend graduation and according to their contracts, they are/ supposed to.  :-)c  N >                                        will see how pityful their fancy unix  > clusters are compared to VMS,   H You seem to think they would care.  And, they don't have any "fancy unixF clusters".  They have accounts on machines and as long as they can getD their work done they don't really care what it runs.  Right now, allD the stuff they want to run is on Unix.  Time was when it was on VMS.A But that time passed and I doubt that most of the faculty in thistD department has even logged onto the one remaining VMS machine in the' datacenter in the past couple of years.   K >                              and more importantly, the students will alsodO > learn about the important features of a cluster for data integrity etc, learniP > about issues with volume shadowing in a cluster, quorum etc. And they will see > where Unix has flaws.t  F The only place they might learn that is in an OS class.  The professorF who teaches it has never used or even seen VMS.  How do you propose toE get him to incorporate it into his lesson plan?  Of course, with UnixmB he can have his students actually play with things like schedulingE algorithms and see the effects because he has an OS with full sourcesnL available, what does he have on VMS beyond a few rare (and likely expensive)H books.  Clustering now is covered as a concept, not in any great detail.E It's a nice concept, but hardly the most important concept in a class  on Operating Systems.    > P > Faculty gets to see that it is to their advantage to teach clustering on a VMS  & The faculty doesn't teach clustering. * There is no course called: Clustering 201.  M > based solution so that their student then come better prepared. VMS has the P > clustering today that Unix will have in 5-10 years. What better way to prepare > courses/students ?  A Colleges aren't about comparing commercial products.  A CS degree B provides the graduate with the knopwledge and experience needed toA understand the concepts and decide for himself which is the righteA solution for a particular task.  Contrary to popular belief, justt@ like no one programming language is "the right answer" for every? task, so to no one OS is always the right answer, not even VMS.5G But, right now, VMS is the odd man out and is not even being considered A when it is the right answer.  Getting VMS back into the EDU arena < is not going to produce a generation of VMS bigots.  It willC provide people in the business and IT world who at least know theres1 is a VMS option.  To expect more is unreasonable.h   bill   -- 'J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   r   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 19:09:20 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death5 Message-ID: <bbo4h0$blruh$2@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>t  ) In article <3EDF8EC2.5C261CED@istop.com>,e- 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:l > Bill Gunshannon wrote:E >> People have been "cheating" for years now on the PDP-11 OSes.  theoE >> result is there is no Hobbyist License and there likely never will  >> be. t > L > DECUS Australia pioneered hobbysist licences with such licenses for PDP11s > many many years ago.  D I doubt that DECUS Australia carries much weight with Mentec who nowG holds the rights to RT-11, RSTS and RSX.  There are no current HobbyistpE Licenses for any of these OSes and no indication that there ever will C be.  I blame this on the many public statements by PDP-11 hobbyiststB stating that they don't care and will run any OS on their basement' PDP-11's wether Mentec likes it or not.t  B If an attitude of "I'll use VMS with a Hobbyist PAK for whatever IB please, no matter what HP thinks." were to become common, how long@ do you think it would be before those PAKS stopped being issued?   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   b   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 14:41:22 -0400s* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death) Message-ID: <3EDF8EC2.5C261CED@istop.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:D > People have been "cheating" for years now on the PDP-11 OSes.  theD > result is there is no Hobbyist License and there likely never will > be.   J DECUS Australia pioneered hobbysist licences with such licenses for PDP11s many many years ago.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:18:05 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> " Subject: Re: Portents of VMS deathE Message-ID: <1ANDa.4125$G_.2800@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>k  7 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in messagep# news:3EDF5DA3.700DEDB3@istop.com...l > Woland wrote:tA > > There is not even a word about ownership of the machine, so Il guess you  (as aD > > person) can obtain valid hobbyist license for computers owned by you  > > university as well.i > E > If your use of "hobbyist" license on a university campus results ancF > unqualified success in getting students back on VMS, I would say "go	 ahead andhF > "cheat". By the time HP clues in, you will already have sent letters to HPl@ > execs showing how easy it is to get students back onto VMS and getting them to6 > like VMS etc etc,s  D HP wouldn't like that...not so much that you 'cheated', but that you/ got a whole bunch of new people asking for VMS.p   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 18:39:59 -0700'1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) " Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0306051739.3b1fbf0c@posting.google.com>i  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3ED50818.B9D67314@istop.com>... P > If you narrow the VMS marketplace to the very same market as Tandem NSK, then:* > 	1-that market is too small to sustain 2O > 	2- HP would be stupid to keep 2 products in the same market that can sustaini > only 1 > L > And between Tandem and VMS, Tandem stays because tandem is the true "faultL > tolerant" that is used by the stock exchanges etc etc. Tandem has a marketM > presence and isn't declared "dead". VMS has no market presence and has beenh. > "forgotten" by its owners for over a decade.  > I'm told stock exchanges are split about 50/50 between VMS andC NonStop.  VMS has a sizeable market presence, significantly more-so F than NonStop -- there are about 30 times as many VMS systems installed as there are NonStop systems.c  B VMS is thought to be dead mostly by folks who last heard about VMSD from Digital when they were told it was dying and they would have to? move to Unix (or later NT), and who aren't up-to-date on what'se> happened lately, particularly since HP took over.  HP made the@ decision to keep VMS early in the clean-room process -- it was a no-brainer.t  F Both VMS and NonStop have their particular strengths.  Most times, theE customer decides to choose a particular software application, and the + platform choice follows from that decision.h   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 18:48:03 -0700I1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)o" Subject: Re: Portents of VMS death; Message-ID: <cf15391e.0306051748.992132@posting.google.com>   f jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<8o8cdvslhgpcq9ml4d06ike6hjvgmb0pbc@4ax.com>...L > Tandem can not provide the business continuity that VMScluster provides.  : > Tandem can provide a fault-tolerant, single-site server   F Actually, the disaster-tolerance capabilities on NonStop have improved( significantly within the last year.  See4 http://nonstop.inet.cpqcorp.net/object/BCDTOLFL.html  = And with the help of controller-based cross-site mirroring to C replicate the database logs across sites, they can now even achieve ! zero data loss on a site failure.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:34:31 GMTw9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>4! Subject: Re: Radeon 7500 on a PWS>0 Message-ID: <rPNDa.2065$O73.10@news.cpqcorp.net>  K Nope.  EV6 systems only - except the XP1000 (unsupported, but 1 head *will*m work).  L The old ELSA Gloria card will work in the PWS-600a.  I have a new version of+ the Oxygen VX1 code that "might" also work.t    ; "Eduardo Anglada" <eduardo.anglada@uam.es> wrote in message<7 news:9ff19bcb.0306050341.5ae52378@posting.google.com...e > Hi,A >sB > I want to learn OpenVMS, but the PowerStorm 4D51T in my PWS-600aL > is not supported by vms, so I wanted to know if the radeon 7500 will work.D > Any one has tried it? If it doesn't work what would you recommend? >-K > (I'm aware that the 600a is an unsopported model, but as it has a cypressrJ > controller I think it should be able to bootstrap from the IDE CD, and I
 can borrow > a SCSI CD in any case).. >> > Thanks in advance, >7	 > Eduardo    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 14:22:39 -0700j1 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) ' Subject: Rebranding of the 2Gb Switches = Message-ID: <857e9e41.0306051322.285a9a65@posting.google.com>s  . Subject:       Rebranding of the 2Gb Switches  >  > F > The NSS Fibre Channel Switch Team has recently introduced HP brandedF 2Gb Fibre Channel Switches which replace the Compaq branded switches. 9 This is a rebranding program only and the feature set andn> functionality of the switches have not changed.  The rebrandedE switches will continue to be offered in 8, 16, 32 and 64 port models,s? however each model will now be offered in a base and power pack ; configuration.  The switches are supported on the followingc, AlphaServers in both Tru64 UNIX and OpenVMS. > ' >       - AS800, AS1200, AS4x00, AS8x00n) >       - DS10, DS10L, DS20E, DS20L, DS25n  >       - ES40, ES45, ES47, ES80: >       - GS60, GS60E, GS80, GS140, GS160, GS320, GS1280   >  >  > The Compaq branded switches affected and the End Of Life dates are shown below.  Also shown are the replacement HP branded switches. e >  -L > CPQ Brand                                                     HP Brand P/Na > Part Number           Description             EOL Date        Replacement/New       Descripitont > o > DS-DSGGD-AC           2Gb, 8 Port, EL                 4/30/03         DS-DSGGD-BC             2Gb, 8 Port, ELmb > 258707-B21            Pleiades 4                              322120-B21              Pleiades 4 > o >                                                               DS-DSGGD-CC             2Gb, 8 Port, Power Pack>b >                                                               322121-B21              Pleiades 4 > f > DS-DSGGD-BA           2Gb, 16 Port            4/30/03         DS-DSGGD-CA         2Gb, 16 Port, Baseb > 287055-B21                                                    322118-B21              Pleiades 4 > p >                                                               DS-DSGGD-CB             2Gb, 16 Port, Power Packb >                                                               322119-B21              Pleiades 4 > j >                                                               DS-DSGGD-AB             2Gb, 32 Port, Baseb >                                                               240603-B21              Pleiades 5 > l > DS-DSGGD-BB           2Gb, 32 Port, PP        5/1/03          DS-DSGGD-DB         2Gb, 32 Port, Power Packb > 311026-B21            Pleiades 5                              333764-B21              Pleiades 5 > g >                                                               DS-DSGGE-BA          2Gb, 64 Port, Basetc >                                                               332177-B21               Pleiades 6e > p > DS-DSGGE-AB           2Gb, 64 Port,           5/1/03          DS-DSGGE-CA             2Gb, 64 Port, Power Packb > 254508-B21            Pleiades 6                              332178-B21              Pleiades 6 >  >  > f > Further details as to description and feature set can be obtained from the respective Quickspecs at  > J >       http://www.compaq.com/products/quickspecs/North_America/10490.html >  > Best Regards,F >  > Roy McCall > ASD Product Marketing Manager % > Alpha Storage Interconnect Products  >s   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:32:23 GMTi# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>tY Subject: Rights - (was Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories). (was F Message-ID: <X0MDa.9277$3Sm.2217@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  = "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAMopenvms.org> wrote in messager7 news:M7JDa.25350$nr.2306305@twister.southeast.rr.com...W' > I think it's called "comp.os.vms" notd$ "spew.typical.leftwing.garbage."  ;) >fC > Besides, he's Canadian, they don't have any 1st Amendment rights.a :)  F Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, orB prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of@ speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably toE assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.o  + Doesn't mention anything about citizenship.t  > And as JF mentions, Canada has a similar Charter of Rights and	 Freedoms.t  = The net effect of both US and Canadian rights means that bothrB Canadians and Americans can stand on either side of the border and freely call Bush a moron.  ;-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 12:42:54 -06000% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>(Y Subject: Re: Rights - (was Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories). 0A Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030605124145.022d19e0@raptor.psccos.com>r  ' At 12:32 PM 6/5/2003, John Smith wrote:c  > >"Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAMopenvms.org> wrote in message8 >news:M7JDa.25350$nr.2306305@twister.southeast.rr.com...) > > I think it's called "comp.os.vms" notg% >"spew.typical.leftwing.garbage."  ;)  > >dE > > Besides, he's Canadian, they don't have any 1st Amendment rights.a >:)t >eG >Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, orlC >prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom ofhA >speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to F >assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. >a, >Doesn't mention anything about citizenship. >t? >And as JF mentions, Canada has a similar Charter of Rights andl
 >Freedoms. >a> >The net effect of both US and Canadian rights means that bothC >Canadians and Americans can stand on either side of the border ands >freely call Bush a moron.  ;-)e  H ..and it also means the rest of us can call those who call Bush a moron,C morons themselves...now, can we can the political bulls**t here...?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 15:07:52 -04002! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>MY Subject: Re: Rights - (was Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories).  ' Message-ID: <3EDF9508.2DA37082@vcu.edu>o  0 Let him who is without shit cast the first turd.              -- Larry Wall i   Enjoy... ;-D  	 Jim Agnews   Dan O'Reilly wrote:s > ) > At 12:32 PM 6/5/2003, John Smith wrote:a > @ > >"Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAMopenvms.org> wrote in message: > >news:M7JDa.25350$nr.2306305@twister.southeast.rr.com...+ > > > I think it's called "comp.os.vms" not7' > >"spew.typical.leftwing.garbage."  ;)g > > >nG > > > Besides, he's Canadian, they don't have any 1st Amendment rights.t > >:)o > >sI > >Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or/E > >prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of0C > >speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably tohH > >assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. > >y. > >Doesn't mention anything about citizenship. > >@A > >And as JF mentions, Canada has a similar Charter of Rights and  > >Freedoms. > >c@ > >The net effect of both US and Canadian rights means that bothE > >Canadians and Americans can stand on either side of the border and_! > >freely call Bush a moron.  ;-)o > J > ..and it also means the rest of us can call those who call Bush a moron,E > morons themselves...now, can we can the political bulls**t here...?e   -- dF "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship of the Ring"   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 19:37:14 -0000m4 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>Y Subject: Re: Rights - (was Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories). r6 Message-ID: <20030605193714.18444.qmail@gacracker.org>  9 On Thu, 05 Jun 2003, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:e> >"Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAMopenvms.org> wrote in message8 >news:M7JDa.25350$nr.2306305@twister.southeast.rr.com...( >> I think it's called "comp.os.vms" not% >"spew.typical.leftwing.garbage."  ;)m >>D >> Besides, he's Canadian, they don't have any 1st Amendment rights. >:)  >nG >Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, ordC >prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of/A >speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to3F >assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. >,, >Doesn't mention anything about citizenship. >-? >And as JF mentions, Canada has a similar Charter of Rights and 
 >Freedoms. >@> >The net effect of both US and Canadian rights means that bothC >Canadians and Americans can stand on either side of the border and  >freely call Bush a moron.  ;-)m  > Just don't try and cross the border by air after saying it. :)     Doc. --  K OpenVMS.  Eight out of ten hackers                   https://vmsbox.cjb.netnK           prefer *other* operating systems.        http://althacker.cjb.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:03:28 -0400s* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>Y Subject: Re: Rights - (was Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories). l) Message-ID: <3EDFBE15.23E7FB93@istop.com>r   John Smith wrote:n? > The net effect of both US and Canadian rights means that botheD > Canadians and Americans can stand on either side of the border and  > freely call Bush a moron.  ;-)  L Consider what a simple criticism of CNN has generated. Americans, which usedK to be so critical of their government and media have now turned to accusinge9 anyone criticising such of being unpatriotic etc etc etc.   N The law may state one is allowed to criticise Bush, but social pressure in the% USA has made it impossible to do so.    M I guess the USA media haven't covered the recent Amnisty International reportgH chastising the USA for human rights violations. Coming into a governmentN building never to come out used to happen only in 3rd world dictatorships, butM it has happened in the USA thousands of times with people (including canadiannK citizens with 100% legal papers to work in the USA) sent to some jail wherea. they are not allowed to sleep to "break them".   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:33:11 +0200e From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>/ Subject: Re: Speed of IDE controllers in DS10 ? 2 Message-ID: <bbo9ml$sn5$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>   Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote:M > Before you wait for an firmware update, use a SCSI-IDE-Converter and accessr > your > IDE-drive with 40 MB/s.o > 
 > eberhard  
 I know :-)  N When you search back in the archive of this group, you will notice that I was F (most likely) the first who wrote about using this converter with VMS.  P However I doubt if it would be faster. It is a extra piece of hardware and will N most likely cause some delay. and there isn't that much difference between 33  MB/sec and 40 MB/sec.   I Furthermore the DS10 has two IDE controllers, so with two disks I have a a throughput of 66 MB/sec.  P The only thing that comes close is using a LVD SCSI controller, and LVD SCS-IDE J converters. However that is not cheap, and I don't think it is physically P possible to install the converters. Don't forget that the converters are higher  then the disk.....  O The disk I'm using has a 8 MB cache, and that is very fortunate because it willkN buffer the sequential read blocks and feed them with maximum speed to the IDE O controller. With sequential reads the disk is to fast for the IDE bus when the VP outside of the disk is read. With a small cache buffer this could mean that the Q disk can't read anymore data because the buffer is full, and the disk would have -O to make a full rotation before it would be able to fill the buffer again. That oL would cause very serious delays, and a very poor performance. A slower disk 1 would perform much better under these conditions.t  P The firmware does have settings to switch SCSI controllers from fast to normal, Q so there is a precedent for switching the IDE controllers from 16 MHZ to 33 MHz, p" assuming it is possible of course.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 15:50:16 -0700m+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>t Subject: VAX Quorumh' Message-ID: <3EDFC928.4080504@MMaz.com>s  I Does anyone, of the top of their head, remember the registers and values )= to deposit at the console of a VAX to force quorum to recalc?i   Barryn   -- n  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028u   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:23:48 +0200(& From: Bernard Giroud <bgiroud@free.fr> Subject: Re: VMS SQL clienti' Message-ID: <3EDFA6D4.31D4081B@free.fr>b   Chris Sharman a crit :p  7 > How can a VMS app access an MS SQL database on a PC ? E > Firstly, a 3GL app written in-house, and secondly, Powerhouse apps.e >y	 > Thanks,e > Chris   @ Try FreeTDS at least for the 3GL app. Don't know for Powerhouse.   -- Bernard Giroud TinyCOBOL Developera   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 23:56:56 GMT 4 From: Craig A. Berry <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> Subject: Re: VMS SQL clientE@ Message-ID: <b7ec1a6635449116cecb18a401e7015c@free.teranews.com>  5 In <3EDFA6D4.31D4081B@free.fr> Bernard Giroud  wrote:  > Chris Sharman a crit :f > 8 >> How can a VMS app access an MS SQL database on a PC ?F >> Firstly, a 3GL app written in-house, and secondly, Powerhouse apps. >>
 >> Thanks, >> Chris > B > Try FreeTDS at least for the 3GL app. Don't know for Powerhouse.  G That's at <http://www.freetds.org> or <http://sourceforge.net/projects/ B freetds>.  The VMS build support went in after the current stable C release (0.61) so to get it you'll have to grab one of the nightly  F snapshots available from the web site.  Unfortunately the development F code is rather in pieces on the shop floor as more general and robust D character set handling are added to the package, so the development G snapshot won't currently build on VMS without some additional porting. sG The path of least resistance at the moment would be to take the [.vms] eI directory and its contents from the latest development snapshot and plop " them into the 0.61 release.n  F There are also of course commercial ODBC drivers; Attunity, EasySoft, F and CONNX come to mind.  If you happen to have the now-defunct Sybase F open client libraries for VMS still lying around, they will even work 3 with some versions of MS SQL with some limitations.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:40:40 GMTi9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>t, Subject: Re: What do these Macro codes mean?1 Message-ID: <cVNDa.2067$P73.585@news.cpqcorp.net>.  3 "bighug16" <xudong_zh@hotmail.com> wrote in messageb7 news:25fe2603.0306050531.4299388e@posting.google.com...e > MOVL B^4(AP),R2d  - Gets the first argument from the call into R2w   > MOVL B^16(R2),R4  I Gets the longword 16 bytes from the start of what R2 points to (the first < call argument is obviously the address of a data structure).   > MOVZWL B^29(R2),R1  E This moves a 16 bit "word" into R1 and clears the upper 16 bits.  ThehD alignment here is bad, since one would want this at a offset that isF divisible by 2 (assumming the structure itself is aligned) - or if theI alignment can't be fixed, do this by either two byte moves, or a longwordm move and a shift/mask.   > MOVL B^85(R4),R0  L Apparently the value at 16 from the start of the structure is a pointer, andL this is loading the longword 85 bytes from the start (again poorly aligned).   > CLRQ -(SP)  J This is pushing a quadword (64bytes) of zero onto the stack.  Probably for scratch storage.  D So.  This looks like the first few instructions of a routine that isK fetching some values from the structure passed to it in the first argument,-K and creating a scratch area.  Probably generated code (not hand coded) fromp a VAX compile.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 16:15:16 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>o, Subject: RE: What do these Macro codes mean?9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEHIHFAA.tom@kednos.com>m   >-----Original Message-----t? >From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com] & >Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 1:41 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com- >Subject: Re: What do these Macro codes mean?e >w >h >d4 >"bighug16" <xudong_zh@hotmail.com> wrote in message8 >news:25fe2603.0306050531.4299388e@posting.google.com... >> MOVL B^4(AP),R2 >k. >Gets the first argument from the call into R2 >  >> MOVL B^16(R2),R4T >,J >Gets the longword 16 bytes from the start of what R2 points to (the first= >call argument is obviously the address of a data structure).o >a >> MOVZWL B^29(R2),R1g >tF >This moves a 16 bit "word" into R1 and clears the upper 16 bits.  TheE >alignment here is bad, since one would want this at a offset that is G >divisible by 2 (assumming the structure itself is aligned) - or if the J >alignment can't be fixed, do this by either two byte moves, or a longword >move and a shift/mask.h >c  G There is nothing "bad"  the alignment, this is a (byte addressable) VAXe not Alpha, e.g.c  
 foo: proc(p);n dcl 1 sample based(p), 	2 string char(29),y 	2 f	fixed bin(15);y  D references to f would result in some similar code.  C typically padsI structures to align its members on natural boundaries.  PL/I does so ONLYoL if you specify the ALIGNMENT attribute, and it is typically NOT done.  Can'tD remember, does VAX fortran align NAMED common members?  IIRC, we did not do that on Prime fortran.a   >> MOVL B^85(R4),R0n >n@ >Apparently the value at 16 from the start of the structure is a
 >pointer, andhC >this is loading the longword 85 bytes from the start (again poorlya
 >aligned). >o
 >> CLRQ -(SP)? > K >This is pushing a quadword (64bytes) of zero onto the stack.  Probably for. >scratch storage.A >eE >So.  This looks like the first few instructions of a routine that is0L >fetching some values from the structure passed to it in the first argument,L >and creating a scratch area.  Probably generated code (not hand coded) from >a VAX compile.y >o >y >t >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.s; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).cA >Version: 6.0.484 / Virus Database: 282 - Release Date: 5/27/2003  >g --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.484 / Virus Database: 282 - Release Date: 5/27/2003   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 12:52:09 -0700r+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>oY Subject: Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories. (was Re: Another fu.# Message-ID: <3EDF9F69.708@MMaz.com>f   JF Mezei wrote:t   >Kenneth Farmer wrote: >    >kG >>Besides, he's Canadian, they don't have any 1st Amendment rights.  :)  >>     >> > O >Please put this back in context. Someone asked me if the name of the author ofhM >an article in the inquirer would make a difference to how I perceive what isa >said in the article.t >/N >I used CNN as an example where the source of the material does matter becauseA >it has a clear bias. Perhaps I should have used Gartner instead.P >  t >fI Perhaps you missed that CNN was labeled the Clinton News Network because tE of their bias; Left and Liberal - That has not changed.  Now, if you cE were picking on Fox News, you would at least be in the ball-park, or   proper 'hockey rink.'e   Barryo   --    @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 23:49:12 +0200t From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>Y Subject: Re: [OT] Inquirer Article Origins - The Conspiracy Theories. (was Re: Another fu 2 Message-ID: <bboe51$7o1$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>   Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: > JF Mezei wrote:t >  >> Kenneth Farmer wrote: >>   >>I >>> Besides, he's Canadian, they don't have any 1st Amendment rights.  :)  >>>    >> >>H >> Please put this back in context. Someone asked me if the name of the  >> author ofH >> an article in the inquirer would make a difference to how I perceive 
 >> what is >> said in the article.t >>I >> I used CNN as an example where the source of the material does matter  
 >> becauseC >> it has a clear bias. Perhaps I should have used Gartner instead.t >>   >>K > Perhaps you missed that CNN was labeled the Clinton News Network because w$ > of their bias; Left and Liberal -    Translated for Europeans:t  ? US Left and Liberal = European Center and moderately Right Wingt? US Right Wing       = European Reactionary to downright Fascista   :-) :-)s  % > That has not changed.  Now, if you hG > were picking on Fox News, you would at least be in the ball-park, or n > proper 'hockey rink.'a >  > Barry. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 13:36:05 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>9 Subject: Re: [The Inquirer] "HP trying to dump OpenVMS ?"v( Message-ID: <3EDF7F7A.D41E455@istop.com>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:= > If Intel reach the conclusion that IA-64 isn't economicallym< > viable then HP without FAB's and engineers is hardly going" > to reach a different conclusion.  N FABs are irrelevant. I believe that even Sun doesn't own its own FABs and uses- other people's FABs to build Sparcs , right ?e  J Secondly, Intel probably has already reached the conclusion that IA64 is aK money pit, but they need to find a way to save face and until that is done, , they have to continue to sink money into it.  M However, and this is the same with Alpha, a SYSTEM builder such as Sun, HP or N Digital doesn't sell chips, they sell systems. So while the CPU, compilers andM other stuff cost money to develop, they help sell very profitable systems andi" software/support. Intel doesn't.    I A system builder generally wants to spend money on a chip that gives it a L technological edge over competitors. That is what IBM, Digital and Sun did. N But HP went the other way and wanted to dumb down its high end servers to haveN what it bet would become a commodity chip which would allow HP to sell systemsM at a lower price than high end servers from its competitors, even though theyr. probably would lack certain high end features.  K Sun succeeded in winning the market with a chip that wasn't the best of theeL best. So HP should, in theory, be able to succeed with a chip that isn't theN best of the best either. Problem is that while Sun capture a large part of theM low and midrange Unix markets, I think that HP (Digital) got a different partlK of the market, one part that is more discerning about performance. So thoseoL customers may not be too happy about HP moving to commodity stuff and may be$ forced to go to IBM for performance.  K But the commodity stuff may allow HP to eat into Sun's market share though.hL Assuming IA64 (and the migration costs to IA64) comes out costing less to HP than Sparc costs Sun.o  K Where Power, Alpha and Sparc shine is that the chip can be made to adapt toAN the system's needs and vice versa. With IA64, HP needs to adapt its systems toM the chip because the chip is monolithic and won't move very fast and HP won'tu" have 100% control over its future.  N So when IBM implements feature XYZ on Power which will allow its large systemsL to perform ABC much faster, will the Intel-HP duo be able to do the same andN deliver to market product at about the same time ? So far, IA64's delays don'tK inspire much confidence that IA64 will be able to keep up with the jone's. e  H By the time  HP starts to make commercially available IA64 based systemsN running VMS, what will IBM be selling ? That is the big question. It isn't howL fast IA64 will eventually be, but rather WHEN such systems will be delivered in comparison with others.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 12:55:21 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>e9 Subject: Re: [The Inquirer] "HP trying to dump OpenVMS ?"e' Message-ID: <3EDFA029.7010801@MMaz.com>   ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:   > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > : >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message& >> news:3EDE44B0.68F778ED@istop.com... >> >>> Keith Parris wrote:, >>>uK >>>> The porting effort is being made under the assumption that this is NOTh? >>>> the last time VMS will be ported to a new CPU architectures >>>r >>> D >>> Ok, lets *ASSUME FOR THE SAKE OF DISCUSSION* that the engineers  >>> complete >> >> >> the >>C >>> port to IA64 in mid 2004. Now, before VMS becomes commercially e >>> available,C >>> Intel announces it is ditching IA64 in favour of a 64 bit 8086.a >>>wI >>> How long would it then take to port VMS to either Power or Hammer or l >>> even >>> Sparc ?   >>> Could it be done in 1 year ? >> >> >>E >> No.  But at the same time your premise is flawed.  Intel won't be e >> ditchings >> IA64.  Nor will HP. >> >> >t8 > If Intel dump IA-64 then HP will have no choice but to > give up on it.   [tongue-in-cheek] E That's been Intel's plan all along...  Get Alpha, the engineers, and tE compilers for free or fire-sale prices, and then sell it back, along yG with IA64 to HP when HP has to cover the arse and must start fabing on / their own... [/tongue-in-cheek]   Barryn   -- r  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028h   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:44:31 GMTp9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>t9 Subject: Re: [The Inquirer] "HP trying to dump OpenVMS ?" 1 Message-ID: <PYNDa.2068$9c3.736@news.cpqcorp.net>M  K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>s; wrote in message news:bbnjoi$9qu$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...r > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:; > > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message ' > > news:3EDE44B0.68F778ED@istop.com.... > >e > >>Keith Parris wrote:e > >>K > >>>The porting effort is being made under the assumption that this is NOTh? > >>>the last time VMS will be ported to a new CPU architecturet > >>L > >>Ok, lets *ASSUME FOR THE SAKE OF DISCUSSION* that the engineers complete > >s > > thei > >>B > >>port to IA64 in mid 2004. Now, before VMS becomes commercially
 available,C > >>Intel announces it is ditching IA64 in favour of a 64 bit 8086.h > >>H > >>How long would it then take to port VMS to either Power or Hammer or even > >>Sparc ?>  > >>Could it be done in 1 year ? > >m > >tE > > No.  But at the same time your premise is flawed.  Intel won't bes ditching > > IA64.  Nor will HP.r > >  > >e >i8 > If Intel dump IA-64 then HP will have no choice but to > give up on it. >a  + If the world stops spinning you'll fly off.n' Have you stopped beating your wife yet?    A) Intel isn't.AL B) Even if it happened, that doesn't mean HP would.  Remember that HP helpedK design the chip, it's a deep part of our strategy, and we could continue toa+ do IA64 design as easily as PA-RISC design.I   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jun 2003 22:46:02 -0500n+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 9 Subject: Re: [The Inquirer] "HP trying to dump OpenVMS ?" 3 Message-ID: <F1k98rzNtyLO@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  [ In article <3EDFFFDA.8DEEF217@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:i > Rob Young wrote: >> A^ >> In article <3EDE969F.5B611733@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: >> > Keith Parris wrote: >> >>a{ >> >> "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:<OOfya.189646$M81.139495@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...lH >> >> > without EV8x there is no long-term life for VMS if Itanic sinks. >> >> F >> >> VMS Engineering is not just porting VMS to Itanium -- it is alsoI >> >> taking formerly architecture-dependent functions (like PALcode, the 9 >> >> SRM console, etc.) and moving them into VMS itself.e >> >I >> > So, Opteron should be less of a challenge if the predictions of somee; >> > pundits hold true. I admit, I tend to agree with them.b >> > >> cN >>         You certainly don't want to create the infrastructure and spend theJ >>         money on developing on a processort that won't cover the gamat.7 >>         Second, AMD is a very shakey bet these days.D > J > Pundits tend to color the truth to suit their viewpoint, just as most of
 > us here do.o  ; 	Yep.  And some with supporting evidence trot it out.  Some < 	trim the supporting evidence rather than debate it and then4 	add their own colorful viewpoint sans the evidence.   				Robv   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.311 ************************r use of "hobbyist" license on a university campus results ancF > unqu                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         @                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    @                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    h *K,&JT˓[dJB!ɚ}#J"ɳƅJ
/-7ǋJ#&ɭˬFJj$ 0:JS`J4	3>ɭJ~ɓ\yJ73IJ "ɭ NJ&B:ˎJ0-JJerJ7,ɦjJ3?6OJr'a%J'LJr(J:"ՉJ/"Ɇ/J
P!J^J0@f"DJ;zfyJZcJf+CRVJaʤHJkf$c&JH;ȳ\/Jƭ&A2
=Jӵ@/