1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 03 Mar 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 122       Contents:6 RE: 6-month free trial of BEA's WebLogic Server on VMS1 Re: About VMS on Itanium in the French "Press"... / Re: Backup options (external SCSI) for PWS500au  Re: CMSVE04041 ?6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? Emacs (again) on V7.3-1  Re: Emacs (again) on V7.3-1 < Re: External Authentication and Windows2000 Active Directory< Re: External Authentication and Windows2000 Active Directory< Re: External Authentication and Windows2000 Active Directory  Re: Fix for EDT emulation in EVE  Re: Fix for EDT emulation in EVE3 fork() on VMS, was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? ; Re: How to Avoid the Almost Certain End of Sun Microsystems ' Re: HP Reports 1st Quarter 2003 Results  I'll be on British soil.../ Re: Linus trashes Itanium - he's scared of VMS! / RE: Linus trashes Itanium - he's scared of VMS! 2 LUG meeting in NYC  Heterogeneous Backup SolutionsB Re: memory errors and bugcheck dump (PROCGONE) with ALPHA 3000/600P Re: OT but worth posting, virus warning:         "FWD: Look at this pack from Mi, Re: OT: America's Cup  [ was Re: I am back ]B Press Release - A management buy out of Heroix Corporation Limited Re: Questions on SSH for VMS Re: Questions on SSH for VMS Re: Questions on SSH for VMS Re: Questions on SSH for VMS Re: Questions on SSH for VMS3 RDB "Tech Day" comes to New York on  March 14, 2003 7 Re: RDB "Tech Day" comes to New York on  March 14, 2003 7 Re: Robert Deininger's 100 Quatloos are still unclaimed 7 Re: Robert Deininger's 100 Quatloos are still unclaimed  Re: SCS/DECnet over IP Re: SCS/DECnet over IP Re: SCS/DECnet over IP Re: SCS/DECnet over IP/ SCSI cluster disk thrashing between connections 9 Re: SET NOTRUNCATE (was: RE: Upcoming VMS improvements ?)  Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth  Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth  Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth . Re: VMS AS400 Coboler needed in PA immediately Re: VMS Backup solutions Re: VMS Backup solutions Re: VMS Backup solutions Re: VMS Backup solutions Re: VMS Backup solutions Re: VMS Backup solutions Re: VMS Backup solutions Re: VMS Backup solutions Re: Volume set across RAID5  Re: Volume set across RAID5 1 Re: Wow - OpenVMS Job Advert in UK Computer Press  Re: [DFG] Some questions- Re: [OT] Compelling reasons why NOT to use XP   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 07:04:12 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> ? Subject: RE: 6-month free trial of BEA's WebLogic Server on VMS T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D9D83@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Re: BEA WLS7 SP1 ..   H Try the web site again .. Appears to be working now after their web site fixups over the weekend. http://www.bea.com/hpvmsbundle/    Regards     
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)  OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM      -----Original Message-----. From: RC Bryan [mailto:rcbryan@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: February 28, 2003 4:40 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ? Subject: Re: 6-month free trial of BEA's WebLogic Server on VMS     6 kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) wrote in message/ news:<wUTAffnlM+sF@eisner.encompasserve.org>... H > Found this interesting bit of stealth promotion today and I thought=20 > I'd pass it along. >=20G > When digging through the 7.3-1 box I ran across a small flyer that=20 J > said BEA is offering an HP-only offer for OpenVMS customers that will=20F > provide a FREE 6-month trial license of BEA's WebLogic Server for=20H > OpenVMS.  If you are interested in _THE_ premium application server on  J > the best OS (no bias, here, what?) then you might want to dig through=20. > your 7.3-1 kit and check it out, or go to=20< > http://www.bea.com/hpvmsbundle/ and sign up for more info. >=20+ > (Disclaimer: I don't work for hp or BEA.)    I have good news and bad news:  F The good: The link now works.  BEA majorly reorganized their website aE short time ago and a few things broke, including the link.  They have  since fixed things.   A The bad: The web page says: "You will be able to download ... the E application server ... in early December 2002..." and they give you a ; form to fill in to be notified "when it becomes available."   A More good:  A quick search shows WLS 7.0 SP1 is available on VMS.   C More bad: It is not available for download from the web (that I can  find.)  A All I can suggest is that you send them your email address on the 3 hpvmsbundle page and wait for sales to contact you.    Regards,	 /RC Bryan    PS: H The Bad: I _DO_ work for BEA. (Yes, I know advertising in a newsgroup isD vulgar, sorry. I thought this was a neat promotion and since someone; else thought it was worth mentioning, it was worth clearing  up.)F The Good: I don't work on WLS and I have nothing to do with sales.  (I: am just a worker-bee on Tuxedo but that is another story.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:00:20 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: About VMS on Itanium in the French "Press".../ Message-ID: <3E638A23.8BA1B014@vl.videotron.ca>    Philippe Bocher wrote:L >     the good Url is http://www.01net.com/article/201922.html, I don't know7 > why I've tried to use minilien for a so short URL ;-(   6 I tried it again, but this time it was OK on netscape.  H Interesting that the article makes its sound as if the port is complete.  K Have the engineers fixed the "DIR" command to show the current directory at 3 the top yet as it does on the real version of VMS ?   M What I found most interesting is that they reveal that one of the metro lines N in PARIS uses VMS to runthe trains. That could be one heck of a good story for* VMS marketing or even the VMS newsletters.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 22:50:03 -0800 7 From: David Spencer <spencer@spaamfree.pageweavers.com> 8 Subject: Re: Backup options (external SCSI) for PWS500auB Message-ID: <020320032250032129%spencer@spaamfree.pageweavers.com>  k In article <e9cbc4f2.0303022054.399a2759@posting.google.com>, Bill McLaughlin <mcbill20@hotmail.com> wrote:   E > Anyone else here have a PWS500au? What do you use for backup. I was G > surprised to find the box without external SCSI. I have a BA364 tower G > with a TZ87 and a storageworks drive as well as an external TLZ09 but  > no way to connect them.    \ Bill, is yours the newer model with the dual USB ports? I have one too. I added a KZPBA SCSIW card to mine. That was my solution to the problem. From there you can attach just about  any SCSI tape you like.      -- Dave Spencer, PageWeavers   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 03 16:36:01 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)  Subject: Re: CMSVE04041 ? ) Message-ID: <L8SjEq4xIwXB@elias.decus.ch>   n In article <i0r8a.197028$Rb4.2379703@news.chello.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes:I > I just noted on the australian ECO site, that there is a CMSAE04041 and K > CMSVE04041 since last October but I so far haven't seen them on the usual > > ECO sites downloadable. Has anyone managed to see/get them ? >    I can see the README at K http://ftp1.support.compaq.com/patches/public/Readmes/vms/cmsae04041.README   A That's the Alpha version, and contains links to the actual files.   B > No, I don't really need them (but I'd be pleased if I get them).$ > And, no, I've no support contract.J > And, no, I don't think they are only on restricted distribution, becauseB > 	a) public distribution is growing while restricted is shrinking% > 	b) ECO 1 is on public distribution  > @ > It is mere a question of how well is the care of the ECO sitesB > and who to turn to with questions/corrections for the ECO site ? > 
 > Many TIA >  > --   > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER ' > Network and OpenVMS system specialist  > E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atH > A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist --     --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 01:42:55 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? / Message-ID: <3E62EB3C.88D52209@vl.videotron.ca>    "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:F > Well, then you have to compare it with the pure defualt of EVE! EvenH > then, EDT wins hands down for me. And even the EVE fans admit that the) > default EVE keypad is somewhat lacking.    Which EVE keypads ?   : SET KEPAD WPS does a pretty good emulation of the WPS-PLUS& SET KEYPAD EDT supposed to emulate EDT  > > Sorry, but you misunderstand. I can see how you came to this& > misunderstanding, so I will explain.  K Too late for explanations... the editor jihad has been launched.. it is now L unstoppable... and it has been going on since the last millenia. Your simpleG explanation isn't even going to make a dent in trying to stop it. We're C talking UN resolutions and a few years of negotiations, perhaps IBM I intervening to put some order into this, and it will require that the EDT E terrorists stop insulting TPU for long enough  to prove that they are C willingto have peace. Only then will the TPU camp stop retaliating.     B > some. Well, first of all, it doesn't do everything EDT does. And  N And EDT doesn't do everything TPU does. For DECwindows, TPU is FAR more "mouseJ friendly". And its horizontal scroll bar makes your "SET NOTRUNCATE" quiteR moot, although you can still truthfully argue that TPU doesn't have an equivalent.    > wondering why anyone uses EDT.  N Correct. If we were in the dark ages, anyone caught using EDRT would have beenM hung for heresy. Almost as bad as declaring the earth to be round or that the & earth wasn't the centre of the galaxy.    C > using EDT, they customized it to their liking. So, the choice for C > old-time EDT users *is* between the EDT user's customized EDT and ! > starting from scratch with TPU.   J You can also replace EDT with TECO and the above paragraph applies equally well.   ' > The fact that I have a 262-line setup ? > file doesn't change that. In fact, it makes my case stronger.   K But it makes you case that the deafult TPU is weak weaker. If you, to suite K YOUR needs, need 262 lines of EDT code to augment the default EDT, then you : have no right to complain that default TPU is inadequate.   K Now, in the editor jihad, it is expected that one side will argue "I can do M this in fewer lines of code than in your editor" type of battles. But if your K starting point is a personally customized EDT, then you need to accept that L should you be assimilated into the TPU collective, you would also be allowed' to create your own initialisation file.     B > So the longer my customization file, the *harder* it would be toD > switch to EVE/TPU. Additionally, I found many things about EVE/TPUE > that I didn't like and I couldn't customize them away. So for these   4 Ever tried SED on the DG AOS-VS ???? Ever tried vi ?  N If you are so tied to EDT, what happens when you need to use another operating system ?  G I have personally found that I have never really gotten the hang on any C serious text editor on my MAC. I use it to tyype text, but no fancy N techniques. If I need fancy modifications, I move the file over to my vaxc and use TPU to do stuff to it.  M However, to do fancy presentation stuff, I use page layout software, freehand = photoshop etc on my MAC, none of which are available on VMS.    K Perhaps one good example of the editor jihad I must fight myself is between  WPS-PLUS, TPU and DECWRITE.   L WPSPLUS has lots of goodies that make creating "ascii text" very easy. Sure,N you create it in WPSPLUS and save it in .WPL format, but when you export it toK text, you have an almost perfect ASCII representation (heck, even boxes get G converted to + - | characters.  Can't do that with TPU EDT or DECWRITE.   M And more importantly, WPS-PLUS on all-in-1, you get aaccess the the extremely G powerful and simple scripting language that can generate documents very J easily, replacing tagwords with variables takes from a field in an indexed: file (for instance, and indexed file with names/adresses).  L When converting software on an old DG machine, I developped an ALL-IN-1 miniM application that had as a main "database" a directory listing of the complete K old DG machine, with dates for each file. And for each executable, it would K provide me with an index of all source files for that executable with their N dates, at which point, I would "click" on the one that had a modification dateJ macthing the executable. (that system had been mismanaged with source codeL copies strewn around the system in many many directories). And at the end, IN had a neat second database of all the modules that were active on that system,M with documentation for each module and then used the scripting/boilerplate to G generate a Pagemaker "ascii with tags" file which, when imported into a K properly setup pagemaker document provided the complete data dictionary for 9 the application, outputted inPDG complete with bookmarks.   B WHEN YOU KNOW AN EDITOR AND ITS SCRIPTING YOU MAKE BEST USE OF IT.  K Most people of say bad thingas about ALL-IN-1 do so because they have never K really made use of it except looking at the menus instead of looking at the   available engine under the hood.  M Similarly, most people who disparage TPU do so because they have never really / spent the time to see the power under the hood.      NO EDITOR HAS EVERYTHING.   N WPSPLUS doesn't have a good "learn" sequence. TPU does.  But with WPSPLUS, youN can not only view your "learn sequenmce" but also edit it. (called UDK). But I. never use that. I use TPU's learn extensively.  K And guess what, my little editor on my PSION PDA has a really nifty feature D that takes a selected piece of text and evaluates it as an aritmeticM expression and adds a "= <answer> to it. It uses the same engine that run the F calculator application AND YOU CAN ADD YOUR OWN ARITMETHIC FUNCTIONS !7 (not bad for a little piece of 10 year old technology).   M Because TPU lacks floating point, you can't do that in it. ALL-IN_1 scripting M does have floating point, but those are not easily accessible from the editor 	 per say.      J And It is a given that EDT has a few things that TPU doesn't have. If, forK you, those few things are critical, then you may have to use EDT for that.  M But if the features unique to EDT are so in daily use, then you might as well M use TPU and just switch to EDT when you need that feature. That is what I do.   J And since I work on a workstation, for me, the fact that TPU is DECwindowsL interface means that EDT is really an "old" application. If you are still onK VT terminals, I guess the difference between the two isn't so great and you M could stick to EDT since in the dark ages of character cell, they didn't know 
 better :-)   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 2003 07:33:56 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303030733.5014088d@posting.google.com>   g JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3E62EB3C.88D52209@vl.videotron.ca>...  > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:H > > Well, then you have to compare it with the pure defualt of EVE! EvenJ > > then, EDT wins hands down for me. And even the EVE fans admit that the+ > > default EVE keypad is somewhat lacking.  >  > Which EVE keypads ?  > < > SET KEPAD WPS does a pretty good emulation of the WPS-PLUS( > SET KEYPAD EDT supposed to emulate EDT  E The default EVE keypad. I said the default. Scroll up a few lines and D look. And the fact that EVE has to emulate other keypads in order to? have a reasonable one doesn't speak well for it. Actually, this D doesn't bother me, as it is easy to switch to the EDT keypad. But we< were talking DEFAULT. And SET KEYPAD EDT is NOT the default.  @ > > Sorry, but you misunderstand. I can see how you came to this( > > misunderstanding, so I will explain. > M > Too late for explanations... the editor jihad has been launched.. it is now N > unstoppable... and it has been going on since the last millenia. Your simpleI > explanation isn't even going to make a dent in trying to stop it. We're E > talking UN resolutions and a few years of negotiations, perhaps IBM K > intervening to put some order into this, and it will require that the EDT G > terrorists stop insulting TPU for long enough  to prove that they are E > willingto have peace. Only then will the TPU camp stop retaliating.   ? Uh, this subthread was started by a TPU advocate, unprovoked no 7 less!!! So don't give me this BS about "EDT terrorism".   E You seem to be taking my criticisms of TPU personally. Are you one of  its authors?  D > > some. Well, first of all, it doesn't do everything EDT does. And > P > And EDT doesn't do everything TPU does. For DECwindows, TPU is FAR more "mouseL > friendly". And its horizontal scroll bar makes your "SET NOTRUNCATE" quiteT > moot, although you can still truthfully argue that TPU doesn't have an equivalent.  D Bonk! I'm not talking about DECwindows. Not everyone has DECwindows.> Kapeesh? And I hate using the mouse so I don't consider "mouseB friendly" to be an advantage. As for the horizontal scroll bar, itD does not make SET NOTRUNCATE moot. Without SET NOTRUNCATE, you can't@ keep an eye on the data in two distant fields as you scroll downC through a large database file if you have to keep moving the stupid A horizontal scroll bar back and forth. It's not the same. With SET B NOTRUNCATE I can read everything with "next screen". Without it, IB have to also go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, adC nauseum. I wish I could take us through the way-back machine to the E time when I really needed EVE to do this, but I can't. If I could, my ; point about reading the database file would be obvious, but @ unfortunately, I can't remember enough about it. And regardless,C reading my log files is much easier with EDT than it is with stupid > horizontal scroll bars. Sorry, but SET NOTRUNCATE is a winner.  B If you don't have a need for SET NOTRUNCATE, fine. But stop saying7 that I or anyone else doesn't. Who are you to say that?    " > > wondering why anyone uses EDT. > P > Correct. If we were in the dark ages, anyone caught using EDRT would have beenO > hung for heresy. Almost as bad as declaring the earth to be round or that the ( > earth wasn't the centre of the galaxy.  = This is a ridiculous comment. Are you praising the Dark Ages? 
 Puh-leeez.  E > > using EDT, they customized it to their liking. So, the choice for E > > old-time EDT users *is* between the EDT user's customized EDT and # > > starting from scratch with TPU.  > L > You can also replace EDT with TECO and the above paragraph applies equally > well.   A So? I have no problem with people using TECO. It is *you* who get : upset by people using other editors. What is your problem?  ) > > The fact that I have a 262-line setup A > > file doesn't change that. In fact, it makes my case stronger.  > M > But it makes you case that the deafult TPU is weak weaker. If you, to suite M > YOUR needs, need 262 lines of EDT code to augment the default EDT, then you < > have no right to complain that default TPU is inadequate.   E Again you miss the point. First of all, the question is "Why should I @ switch to EVE when I already have finished customizing EDT?" The1 question is NOT which editor is better. Got that?   A Second, my 262-line EDT init file boils down to 84 lines when you F remove the comments (which was stated in my post). To do the same withF TPU would probably take thousands of lines and hour and hours of time.D So even starting with default editors, it's a lot less work and timeF to implement my customizations in EDT than it is in EVE. I've got work3 to do. I don't have the time to reinvent the wheel.   F Third, I'm already done with the EDT version. Let me know when you are@ willing to translate my init file into EVE/TPU. I'll be happy toB e-mail it to you. And I'll be even happier to get a translation in< repsonse! I'll still probably use EDT much of the time, BTW.  B Fourth, the question is not which editor is better, but why shouldB someone who is happy with EDT should bother to switch to an editorE (for normal daily use) that he finds to be a pain? Actually, that was 2 first, but you seem to keep forgetting this point.  M > Now, in the editor jihad, it is expected that one side will argue "I can do O > this in fewer lines of code than in your editor" type of battles. But if your M > starting point is a personally customized EDT, then you need to accept that N > should you be assimilated into the TPU collective, you would also be allowed) > to create your own initialisation file.   E But I'm already done with my EDT init file! Again you are missing the ! point. Please read my post again.   D > > So the longer my customization file, the *harder* it would be toF > > switch to EVE/TPU. Additionally, I found many things about EVE/TPUG > > that I didn't like and I couldn't customize them away. So for these  > 6 > Ever tried SED on the DG AOS-VS ???? Ever tried vi ?  F I have tried vi. I didn't like it, but no one could give me a tutorialE or a manual or a secret code chart at the time. What's your point? If B I have a choice of editors, I'll pick the one I like best. If not,- I'll make the best of it. What is your point?   P > If you are so tied to EDT, what happens when you need to use another operating
 > system ?  E I learn it because I have to. Actually, on the PC, I got jed from the D net which does a good emulation of EDT's keypad functionality. But IF learned EDIT (MS-DOS V6.0 and V6.2 (IIRC)) anyway. And it doesn't take1 long to get the hang of what little Notepad does.   I > I have personally found that I have never really gotten the hang on any E > serious text editor on my MAC. I use it to tyype text, but no fancy P > techniques. If I need fancy modifications, I move the file over to my vaxc and > use TPU to do stuff to it. > O > However, to do fancy presentation stuff, I use page layout software, freehand ? > photoshop etc on my MAC, none of which are available on VMS.   > M > Perhaps one good example of the editor jihad I must fight myself is between  > WPS-PLUS, TPU and DECWRITE.  > N > WPSPLUS has lots of goodies that make creating "ascii text" very easy. Sure,P > you create it in WPSPLUS and save it in .WPL format, but when you export it toM > text, you have an almost perfect ASCII representation (heck, even boxes get I > converted to + - | characters.  Can't do that with TPU EDT or DECWRITE.  > O > And more importantly, WPS-PLUS on all-in-1, you get aaccess the the extremely I > powerful and simple scripting language that can generate documents very L > easily, replacing tagwords with variables takes from a field in an indexed< > file (for instance, and indexed file with names/adresses). > N > When converting software on an old DG machine, I developped an ALL-IN-1 miniO > application that had as a main "database" a directory listing of the complete M > old DG machine, with dates for each file. And for each executable, it would M > provide me with an index of all source files for that executable with their P > dates, at which point, I would "click" on the one that had a modification dateL > macthing the executable. (that system had been mismanaged with source codeN > copies strewn around the system in many many directories). And at the end, IP > had a neat second database of all the modules that were active on that system,O > with documentation for each module and then used the scripting/boilerplate to I > generate a Pagemaker "ascii with tags" file which, when imported into a M > properly setup pagemaker document provided the complete data dictionary for ; > the application, outputted inPDG complete with bookmarks.  > D > WHEN YOU KNOW AN EDITOR AND ITS SCRIPTING YOU MAKE BEST USE OF IT.  < OK. I do. But what does this have to do with this subthread?  M > Most people of say bad thingas about ALL-IN-1 do so because they have never M > really made use of it except looking at the menus instead of looking at the " > available engine under the hood. > O > Similarly, most people who disparage TPU do so because they have never really 1 > spent the time to see the power under the hood.  >  > NO EDITOR HAS EVERYTHING.   F Sounds like you're arguing my ponit! I never said that TPU didn't haveC a lot of "power under the hood". It certainly does. But my argument E was that for me, it was too much power for ordinary daily editing and B it does too many things that annoy me. Found in reverse direction?> What the hell is the purpose of that? What possible use is it?  P > WPSPLUS doesn't have a good "learn" sequence. TPU does.  But with WPSPLUS, youP > can not only view your "learn sequenmce" but also edit it. (called UDK). But I0 > never use that. I use TPU's learn extensively.   Fine.   M > And guess what, my little editor on my PSION PDA has a really nifty feature F > that takes a selected piece of text and evaluates it as an aritmeticO > expression and adds a "= <answer> to it. It uses the same engine that run the H > calculator application AND YOU CAN ADD YOUR OWN ARITMETHIC FUNCTIONS !9 > (not bad for a little piece of 10 year old technology).  > O > Because TPU lacks floating point, you can't do that in it. ALL-IN_1 scripting O > does have floating point, but those are not easily accessible from the editor  > per say.   > L > And It is a given that EDT has a few things that TPU doesn't have. If, forM > you, those few things are critical, then you may have to use EDT for that.    9 Well, thank you! How kind of you to allow me to use EDT.    O > But if the features unique to EDT are so in daily use, then you might as well O > use TPU and just switch to EDT when you need that feature. That is what I do.   ; WHY? Why should I "might as well use TPU"?  WHY? WHY? WHY?    B Well, you almost got it. Actually, just transpose EDT with EVE and then you've got it! :-)   L > And since I work on a workstation, for me, the fact that TPU is DECwindowsN > interface means that EDT is really an "old" application. If you are still onM > VT terminals, I guess the difference between the two isn't so great and you O > could stick to EDT since in the dark ages of character cell, they didn't know  > better :-)  A Why is it a problem for you that some of us prefer EDT for normal E day-to-day editing? If you don't like EDT, don't use it. If you don't ? like my criticisms of it, well, you can go write a TPU program!    Disclaimer: JMNSHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 03 17:28:58 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) ? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? ) Message-ID: <VgS1FoX92RT7@elias.decus.ch>   n In article <b096a4ee.0303021552.620c4608@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:B > My apologies for this repost, but I found too many errors in theF > original. So I fixed the errors and made small modifications. I willF > attempt to delete the original. Please ignore the other one if it is > still present. >>  G >> Eh? I find those two statements contradictory. My view of EDT is the N >> pure default (without the clutter of someone else's ideas, as contained in K >> SYS$MANAGER:EDTINI.TEMPLATE), and almost certainly doesn't look anything  >> like yours.   > F > Well, then you have to compare it with the pure default of EVE! EvenH > then, EDT wins hands down for me. And even the EVE fans admit that the) > default EVE keypad is somewhat lacking.   , Yes that is a slight pain, and the answer is   $ DEFINE EVE$KEYPAD EDT   G in a your LOGIN.COM (in my system wide startup files on my own system).   E If you find yourself unexpectedly without it enabled, the command to  - change to the EDT keypad can be shortened to:    s k e    (set keypad edt)   > / >> Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!  > > > Sorry, but you misunderstand. I can see how you came to this& > misunderstanding, so I will explain. >    Thanks for the explanation.   P >> For multiple source code changes (have you ever edited 150 programs at a timeI >> and had them all compile cleanly?), EDT and a bit of DCL are the tools  >> of my choice. >  > Cool.  >    Thanks.   K >> For viewing several source code or documentation files interactively and H >> pasting between them, or simply working through a compilation listingM >> and at the same time editing the source to remove typos, TPU is my choice.  >  > OK.  > ) >> TECO is magic for certain other tasks.  > 3 > I never used TECO. It sounds fascinating, though.  >   D I would not claim to be an expert in TECO, but its syntax is similar0 to the first editor I learned, RT-11's EDIT.SAV.    H >> As for huge initialization files, I went off them when I was visitingJ >> multiple customers and/or dealing with virgin systems. I learnt to deal >> with the defaults.  >>  ; >> The latter point also applies to my LOGIN.COM files too.  > A > Seems like quite reasonable behaviour given your circumstances.  >   K >> It is perhaps worth mentioning here that a well respected Unix colleague I >> swears by vi, even when the emacs crowd laugh at him. His reasoning is J >> simple - vi exists on every Unix system and is often the only available >> editor in standalone mode.  > H > And for me, in my graduate student days, EDT worked everywhere and EVE3 > worked only on our own VAX 11/750. So I used EDT.  >   F My problem with early versions of EVE was that I was working in placesA with VT52 clones (EVE requires ANSI terminals). I finally started F using it for the majority of my editing when I realized that using itsB split screen functionality could improve my productivity. I was onF fixed price contracts at the time, so went out and bought my own VT2205 to do that. In that sense it was a business decision.    --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 2003 09:23:46 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303030923.29881ee5@posting.google.com>   g JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3E62EB3C.88D52209@vl.videotron.ca>...  > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: [...] ) > > The fact that I have a 262-line setup A > > file doesn't change that. In fact, it makes my case stronger.  > M > But it makes you case that the deafult TPU is weak weaker. If you, to suite M > YOUR needs, need 262 lines of EDT code to augment the default EDT, then you < > have no right to complain that default TPU is inadequate.   B Obviously, you haven't read any of my posts in their entirety. TheF problem with EVE is that it has too many annoying things that can't beB customized away. Some kind posters have supplied some code in thisC thread that helps. But with EDT I don't have annoyances that aren't  easily customized away.   < For EVE, these include, but are not necesarily limited to...   o  Spasmodic cursor movement. 2 o  Delay when reaching beginning or end of buffer.E o  Found in reverse direction. Go there? (totally worthless; it's not  a feature, it's a bug! :-) o  No SET NOTRUNCATE. C o  case independent searches with any-case string (finally fixed by  posted code) o  delay in startup  o  large delay with large files E o  using vast amounts of resources with large files, which can easily  fill a pagefile ' o  can't use many EVE commands in batch ( o  can't look at LEARNed key definitionsA o  need a fix just so that selecting a zero size range clears the  paste buffer/ o  delay by pressing Do key over and over again E o  need code just to make writing the paste buffer or select range to  a file reasonably easy2 o  need to spend more time to write customizations* o  I have to rewrite all my customizationsC o  I can't edit journal file unless using keystroke journaling, and A even then it's harder if it can be done at all (needed for "Undo"  capability) C o  Find Next resultant cursor position bounces spasmodically up and  down all over the screen o  I hate using the mouse F o  Setting up DECwindows would cause me more problems by having to useF Citrix to access my company's "office world of apps and network drives and e-mail, etc."  o  No ^U abort funcionality./ o  Can't edit and save fixed-width-record files   A I'm sure there's more, so don't consider this an exhaustive list.   D There are very few annoyances in EDT and I can easily customize them away (and have, mostly).  D Every time I fire up EVE when I could have used EDT I find somethingC stupid happens and I have to spend extra time to fix it. And then I A realize, "Hey, if I had used EDT, I would have been done sooner."   % Do you get it now? (I bet you don't!)   B Also, my 262-line EDT init file boils down to only 84 lines of EDT> line mode code and none of it is some crazy program written toE eliminate or make tolerable some annoying thing. (See my other post.)    [...]   D Why does it bother you so much that I use EDT? And what's wrong with crticizing EVE and TPU?   F I'll use whatever editor I damn well please. And if you don't like it, you can go write a TPU program!   B I'm really tired of you not reading my posts in their entirety and+ misunderstanding almost everything I write.    Disclaimer: JMNSHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 2003 12:43:00 -0600 B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? 3 Message-ID: <LkjAHws2dYKe@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <b096a4ee.0303030923.29881ee5@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: >   # First of all, my position up front:   J I started on RSTS/E with EDT about 16 years ago. About a decade ago, afterJ starting to write code for. and also to manage, my first Vax, I tried EVE.F After one about day of use, I switched full time to EVE, as it was far0 superior __for my needs__ (more of which below).   Now my comments:  L People should choose the editor that best suits the task at hand and/or thatL person's style of working. For you that appears to be EDT, for me that's EVE? (with an increasing preference for EMACS where it's available).   G [deleted your long list of what you don't like about EVE. Most of these G have never been issues for _me_, which only shows that different people " use editors for different things.]  C > I'm sure there's more, so don't consider this an exhaustive list.  > F > There are very few annoyances in EDT and I can easily customize them > away (and have, mostly). >   H Would it be fair to say that there are very few annoyances in EDT, __for- the things that _you_ want to use EDT for ?__   G One thing that I am interested in knowing is are you using EDT to write F code or are you using it to edit command procedures and data records ?  0 The 2 major reasons that I switched to EVE were:  : 1) the ability to have more than 24 lines on a screen, andK 2) the ability to have more than one buffer on the screen at the same time.   E I primarily write code, and the inability to do these 2 things in EDT H would be a _major_ annoyance for me, were I forced to use EDT these days to write code.  K OTOH, if you are editing long data records, I can see how the ability to do G SET NOTRUNCATE would be much more important than the ability to display I header files and specifications on the screen while you are writing code.   F > Every time I fire up EVE when I could have used EDT I find somethingE > stupid happens and I have to spend extra time to fix it. And then I C > realize, "Hey, if I had used EDT, I would have been done sooner."  >   J As above: for some things, EDT is better. For other things, EVE is better.  D > Also, my 262-line EDT init file boils down to only 84 lines of EDT@ > line mode code and none of it is some crazy program written toG > eliminate or make tolerable some annoying thing. (See my other post.)  >   C Annoying for you, and the things that you would like to do with it. F Not necessarily annoying for other people with different requirements.   Simon.   --  B Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       L VMS advocate: One who makes a Mac advocate look like a beginner at advocacy.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 2003 04:31:26 -0800 ( From: gtackett@yahoo.com (Galen Tackett)  Subject: Emacs (again) on V7.3-1< Message-ID: <1579dafc.0303030431.c84ecca@posting.google.com>  E Since my last attempt to ask the question was botched, I'll ask again 
 correctly:  A Can anyone point me to a site where I can download Emacs V19.x (I C believe that was the most recent Emacs ported to VMS) that will run ? okay on VMS V7.3-1? The old DECUS sites are, I guess, no longer : working, and the "official" Gnu sites are also failing me.  B Sites inside the US are preferred, as it's more likely they'll get thru our network security.  E I don't think my e-mail host will allow messages that big, or someone ( could just e-mail the whole works to me.   Thanks,    Galen    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:38:23 -0000 ! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> $ Subject: Re: Emacs (again) on V7.3-1/ Message-ID: <v66j5vcl6jk1f7@corp.supernews.com>   ) Galen Tackett <gtackett@yahoo.com> wrote: C : Can anyone point me to a site where I can download Emacs V19.x (I E : believe that was the most recent Emacs ported to VMS) that will run A : okay on VMS V7.3-1? The old DECUS sites are, I guess, no longer < : working, and the "official" Gnu sites are also failing me.   http://vms.gnu.org/history.html 0 http://vms.gnu.org/software/released1/emacs.html   --    D "France wants more evidence ... The last time the French wanted moreD  evidence, it rolled right over them with a German flag."  Letterman        ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:44:35 +0100 ) From: Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> E Subject: Re: External Authentication and Windows2000 Active Directory 6 Message-ID: <3e634e33$0$49106$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:f > In article <a98cd882.0302250221.a4f78ef@posting.google.com>, Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn) writes: >  >>Hello, >>F >>Is anyone using External Authentication from OpenVMS V7.3 / AdvancedG >>Server V7.3 to a Windows2000 Active Directory domain? Advanced Server E >>has it's own domain and has a /TRUSTED relation with the AD domain.  >>E >>I think I have set everything according to the documentation, but I : >>keep getting "%LOGIN-F-NOSUCHUSER, no such user" errors. >>< >>It does work when I try it with another OpenVMS/AS domain. >> >>Has anybody any suggestions? >  > H > 1. Are you surely running Windows 2000 in a "backward compatibility to >    earlier windows" mode ?   I will check that.  5 > 2. Only a fool would accept Windows advice from me.   4 I will reconsider my response to the previous point!   Thanks anyway!  	 Bart Zorn    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:51:27 +0100 ) From: Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> E Subject: Re: External Authentication and Windows2000 Active Directory 6 Message-ID: <3e634fcf$0$49104$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>   Brad McCusker wrote:< > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message/ > news:Ku5vH43sgCuc@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > > >>In article <a98cd882.0302250221.a4f78ef@posting.google.com>, > ) > Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn) writes:  > 	 >>>Hello,  >>> G >>>Is anyone using External Authentication from OpenVMS V7.3 / Advanced H >>>Server V7.3 to a Windows2000 Active Directory domain? Advanced ServerF >>>has it's own domain and has a /TRUSTED relation with the AD domain. >> > L > Have you verified that the trust itself is working?  If so, then, Ext Auth > should work.  G No, I don't know how to verify that. There was a side effect, however,  I which makes me think that at least something worked (although aversely).  F User who have a userid with the same name in both domains (which were H unrelated before I established the trust) started to get authentication D problems which we previously did not have. We deleted the trust and ( those problems disappeared (I think...).  F >>>I think I have set everything according to the documentation, but I; >>>keep getting "%LOGIN-F-NOSUCHUSER, no such user" errors.  >>>  >> > M > I suspect that the problem isn't with the AD aspect of things, but, instead K > with the ability of the local machine to find the user remotely, and that G > could be due to some hostmap restrictions (things like hostmapdomains H > registry settings?), or, you are relying on an implicit mapping to the) > remote domain that isn't being allowed?  > M > When you login, have you tried specifying the username in a username@domain  > format (or domain\username)?   Yes, none of these worked.   > = >>>It does work when I try it with another OpenVMS/AS domain.  >>>  >> > I > What works?  EA to the other AS domain?  Or, the other AS domain has EA  > working to an AD domain?  *  From one AS domain to an other AS domain.   >>>Has anybody any suggestions?  >>H >>1. Are you surely running Windows 2000 in a "backward compatibility to >>   earlier windows" mode ? >> > K > This shouldn't be necessary, but, it might simplify things.  On a related K > note, I would check some of the AD domain security settings.  Things like G > "restrictanonymous" registry setting can wreak havoc with Win2K/WinNT  > interoperability.   D I hope to be able to test in a more separated test environment next ( week. I will let you know how things go.   > Brad >    Thanks!   	 Bart Zorn    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:57:07 +0100 ) From: Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> E Subject: Re: External Authentication and Windows2000 Active Directory 6 Message-ID: <3e635123$0$49104$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:f > In article <a98cd882.0302250221.a4f78ef@posting.google.com>, Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn) writes: > F >>Is anyone using External Authentication from OpenVMS V7.3 / AdvancedG >>Server V7.3 to a Windows2000 Active Directory domain? Advanced Server E >>has it's own domain and has a /TRUSTED relation with the AD domain.  >  >  > Sorry, currently no.9 > But, why do you run it as a separate (trusted) domain ?   I Political reasons. We cannot convince Windows system management to allow   that.   H > Do you know, that it is now possible to use PW/AS as a member server ?   Yes, I know.  3 > Do you use the PWRK$ACME_DEFAULT_DOMAIN logical ?   ( Yes, does not seem to make a difference.   > What does EA debug tell ?  > 8 > 	SYS$SINGLE_SIGNON       3               !Local+ExternC > 	SYS$SINGLE_SIGNON       80000003        !Local+Extern+OpcomDebug   6 I have tried "3", and I will try "80000003" next week.  E >>I think I have set everything according to the documentation, but I : >>keep getting "%LOGIN-F-NOSUCHUSER, no such user" errors. >  > ( > Do you have explicit HOSTMAPs set up ?  3 Yes, but I do not think that that is a requirement.   C > Is the PWRK$GUEST correctly defined ? I had some funnies with it.   E I don't know, but I will have a look next week when I can test again.   < >>It does work when I try it with another OpenVMS/AS domain. >  > 7 > More infos please ? How is the other domain related ?   C Like I answered to Brad: It works from one AS domain to another AS  % domain. Only W2K AD gives me trouble.    Thanks!    Bart   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 10:24:35 -0500- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> ) Subject: Re: Fix for EDT emulation in EVE 6 Message-ID: <b3vs3r$1qm2c6$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>   Rob Brown wrote: >> Peter Weaver wrote: >...H >>> define key gold s as "cutsr=writesrbuffer paste=writesrbuffer ext wr6 >>> ?*'Enter the Filename to Write: ' =writesrbuffer." > & > Why not (making this up on the fly): > H >   define key gold s as "ext wr ?*'Enter the Filename to Write: ' sel."  L I thought that I could claim neutrality in this editor war, but I guess I'llI have to go back to the TPU camp, IIRC this is the second time in the last J year that I posted an EDT solution which was not as good as someone else'sG solution. But before I go I need to tell Alan that my .EDT file has 222 G non-comment lines, 12 macros and 159 comments, but having my EDT skills H shown-up twice in one year means that I must really be a TPUer trying to hide in an EDT uniform.    :( :( :(   -- Peter WeaverD Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer,A nor the company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that it  sub-contracts to.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:05:46 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>) Subject: Re: Fix for EDT emulation in EVE / Message-ID: <3E638B69.A75054BB@vl.videotron.ca>    Peter Weaver wrote: I > non-comment lines, 12 macros and 159 comments, but having my EDT skills J > shown-up twice in one year means that I must really be a TPUer trying to > hide in an EDT uniform.   M MC AUTHORIZED MOD <guilty>/DISUSER  is the penalty for Treason in the kingdom N of TPU. And where the death penalty is permitted, MC AUTHORIZE DELETE <GUILTY> is the penalty.    :-)    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 2003 06:36:34 -0600 B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)< Subject: fork() on VMS, was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?3 Message-ID: <tHZFEvX9esxD@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <cf15391e.0302270930.34290dc3@posting.google.com>, keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:  > D > VMS can meet COE standards without this -- it already has a fork()A > that works correctly; it's just been slow because of the design 7 > differences between process creation on VMS and Unix.  >   H This is excellent news; I was unaware of this. Where is it implemented ?  M Looking at the C RTL reference manual for C V6.5, I cannot find any reference  to fork, just vfork.  ? Is it tied to the version of VMS, or the version of the C RTL ?   N I would be very interested in seeing someone explain how this was implemented.   Thanks for any information,    Simon.   --  B Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       L VMS advocate: One who makes a Mac advocate look like a beginner at advocacy.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:04:36 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy D Subject: Re: How to Avoid the Almost Certain End of Sun Microsystems. Message-ID: <3E6336C4.6060307@nospamn.sun.com>   Brian 'Jarai' Chase wrote:0 > In article <3E537675.7020507@nospamn.sun.com>,E > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy  <Andrew.Harrison@Sun.COM> wrote:  >  >>Andreas Davour wrote:  >  > C >>>Maybe you feel it's just bullshit, but I surely see more coming  B >>>from IBM if you count kernel patches. And considering that IBM D >>>is phasing out AIX in favour of Linux sure tells me they are partG >>>of the gang. Hell knows what Sun wants more that to protect Solaris.  >>< >>That is entirely untrue. IBM's public statements about AIXA >>indicate that they expect it to be their high end UNIX offering < >>in 10 years time. A decade is a hell of a long time in the9 >>computer industry and if the statements subtext is that > >>they are phasing out AIX in 11 years time in favour of Linux? >>well sorry but that is just too far off to have any relevance 	 >>at all.  >>C >>How about listing IBM's contributions to the OpenSource community  >>[...]  >  > C > The credibility and legitimacy they give Linux by overtly stating B > their support of Linux and opensource.  That alone is worth moreG > than any code contribution they can offer.  The heads of corporations   > pay attention when IBM speaks. > G > Obviously they're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. G > IBM do it because it causes Microsoft pain.  It's not entirely unlike C > the help they're offering AMD; that is causing Intel and HP some  G > small amount of pain.  IBM's greatest value is in the weight of their  > longstanding reputation. >   = They arn't even doing it because it hurts Micorsoft, its much ? simpler than that. IBM GS is the largest SI in the industry and @ IBMs most profitable business unit, Linux is a fantastic revenue= opportunity for GS. If the recent Meta TCO study for Linux is B to be believed every Linux server and desktop installed represents@ a huge people and process opportunity which IBM will be only too happy to satisfy.   A Any OS that you have to edit and recompile/relink in order to add > a HBA device driver for example represents an opportunity that< has the marketing folks at GS rubbing their hands with glee.    H > The difference between IBM and Sun, with regards to opensource, and inG > particular with Linux itself, is that they unflinchingly state they'd B > drop AIX in favor of Linux (when/if the time is ready).  I can'tF > imagine Sun would /ever/ have the balls to do the same with Solaris.G > Sun look very indecisive in comparision.  Of course Sun are also in a G > lot weaker position w.r.t. to the negative impact the Linux operating $ > system can have on their business. >   8 No Sun's possition is that its an irrelevant discussion.5 No one writes Linux software they write software that 8 uses GCC/Glibc etc so a discussion about Linux vs AIX or4 Solaris is really a discussion about the capabilites2 of the kernel, filesystems, volume management etc.  : Sun could quite easily submit Solaris with the appropriate9 packaged software for LSB complaince testing as could IBM 5 with AIX. We already provide a LinuxRun (which should 2 really be called GNU run) environment for Solaris.  6 IBM's announcement far from being a display of courage7 is in fact just a rather transparent attempt to play to : the crowd without actually offering anything of substance.   Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 2003 10:53:15 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) 0 Subject: Re: HP Reports 1st Quarter 2003 Results= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0303031053.615b2b0a@posting.google.com>   v keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) wrote in message news:<cf15391e.0302251421.16842f38@posting.google.com>...% > HP Reports 1st Quarter 2003 Results   3 From HP World's e-mail newsletter, Feb. 27 edition:  --- # Fiorina defends HP's Q1 performance   N HP CEO Carly Fiorina defended her company's first-quarter performance before aM group of investors on Wednesday, calling the period the most profitable since F its merger with Compaq Computer.  Fiorina took direct aim at claims HPL reclassified expenses to make its operating unit, including the PC division,O look profitable.  "Nothing could be further from the truth," she said.  But she G blamed the large revenue shortfall in the quarter on the company's U.S. G business.  Fiorina said the quarter's lesson may be that an increase in L information technology spending is not yet taking place.  She added that the2 recovery may be slower than many investors expect.- http://click.topica.com/maaaSZ6aaWktLa4e8YPe/    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:51:16 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG# Subject: I'll be on British soil... 0 Message-ID: <00A1C50C.13CBFB96@SendSpamHere.ORG>  8 Another year and another trip "over the pond" to the UK.  H I'll be in London 8,9,10 of March.  I'd like to put faces with the namesG I see here on c.o.v., so if you'll be in London on these days and would H like to meet, let me know (private email).  I tried to connect with sev-H eral people last year but the telephone tag game didn't play well.  I'llI be in various places in Southern England 11,12,13 March and I'll be stay- 8 ing at the lovely Butlins in Minehead 14,15,16 of March.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:33:31 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 8 Subject: Re: Linus trashes Itanium - he's scared of VMS!. Message-ID: <3E6375CB.3010902@nospamn.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message . > news:d6CcnYRy8sYOFcOjXTWcow@metrocast.net... >  >>F >>I don't like or particularly respect Itanic, largely for the reasons > 	 > already  > G >>noted:  it achieves its competitive performance by the application of  >  > brute  > J >>force and band-aids to a fairly misbegotten architectural approach.  But >  > the  > G >>resulting raw performance *is* competitive, even though the resulting ; >>price/performance and ease of future enhancements is not.  >> >  > I > It's price/performance is competetive.  It is priced to compete against N > other 64-bit chips used in UNIX servers.  It's "ease of future enhancements"N > isn't really interesting - only the results.  And even without architecturalJ > innovation, it's - as you indicate - "brute force" approach lends itself= > well to simply driving the process down and clock rates up.  >   A Sadly for you it far to soon to tell if Itanium II is competitive ? from a price or performance standpoint against the other 64 bit C chips used in UNIX servers. From a performance standpoint the micro D benchmark results suggest that Itanium is doing ok, the larger scale? benchmark results suggest the opposite. If Itaniums performance ? on the micro benchmarks is due as alledged to feedback directed / optimisation then you are probably out of luck.   A As for prices Itanium OEM's seem unwilling to slash their margins ; to the levels required to meet Intels cost per system, cost = per CPU claims for Itanium. Your employer currently charges a C whopping 23K per CPU in a configured system for IPF, roughly double : the price IBM and Sun charge for CPU's in configured 64bit
 UNIX systems.   < And 23K per CPU is also a very steep premium to pay when oneA compares IPF with Xeon's which outperfom IPF on some of the micro , benchmarks touted around by the Intel folks.  8 Of course part of the cost differential is because Xeons6 cost Intel a lot less to build than IPF, with a 25% of< the die size in a given process and earlier access to faster> smaller processes this differential is likely to be sustained.   Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:03:05 -0500# From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> 8 Subject: RE: Linus trashes Itanium - he's scared of VMS!: Message-ID: <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDIEPICNAA.dallen@nist.gov>   > -----Original Message-----) > From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 0 > [mailto:Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com]' > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 10:34 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com : > Subject: Re: Linus trashes Itanium - he's scared of VMS! >  >  >  >  > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:9 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message 0 > > news:d6CcnYRy8sYOFcOjXTWcow@metrocast.net... > >  > >>H > >>I don't like or particularly respect Itanic, largely for the reasons > >  > > already  > > I > >>noted:  it achieves its competitive performance by the application of  > > 	 > > brute  > > L > >>force and band-aids to a fairly misbegotten architectural approach.  But > >  > > the  > > I > >>resulting raw performance *is* competitive, even though the resulting = > >>price/performance and ease of future enhancements is not.  > >> > >  > > K > > It's price/performance is competetive.  It is priced to compete against P > > other 64-bit chips used in UNIX servers.  It's "ease of future enhancements"P > > isn't really interesting - only the results.  And even without architecturalL > > innovation, it's - as you indicate - "brute force" approach lends itself? > > well to simply driving the process down and clock rates up.  > >  > C > Sadly for you it far to soon to tell if Itanium II is competitive A > from a price or performance standpoint against the other 64 bit E > chips used in UNIX servers. From a performance standpoint the micro F > benchmark results suggest that Itanium is doing ok, the larger scaleA > benchmark results suggest the opposite. If Itaniums performance A > on the micro benchmarks is due as alledged to feedback directed 1 > optimisation then you are probably out of luck.  > C > As for prices Itanium OEM's seem unwilling to slash their margins = > to the levels required to meet Intels cost per system, cost ? > per CPU claims for Itanium. Your employer currently charges a E > whopping 23K per CPU in a configured system for IPF, roughly double < > the price IBM and Sun charge for CPU's in configured 64bit > UNIX systems.  > > > And 23K per CPU is also a very steep premium to pay when oneC > compares IPF with Xeon's which outperfom IPF on some of the micro . > benchmarks touted around by the Intel folks. > : > Of course part of the cost differential is because Xeons8 > cost Intel a lot less to build than IPF, with a 25% of> > the die size in a given process and earlier access to faster@ > smaller processes this differential is likely to be sustained. >   ? 	Did I miss the announcement of a 64 bit Xeon or is this simply  	comparing apples to zebras?   	Dan   	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrison  >    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 2003 09:10:10 -0800 1 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) ; Subject: LUG meeting in NYC  Heterogeneous Backup Solutions = Message-ID: <857e9e41.0303030910.1616d4bc@posting.google.com>   A Please join us for the next NY Metro Local Users Group meeting.     = Note: you must RSVP in advance for entrance to the building.      "Heterogeneous Backup Solutions"   Thursday, March 6th, 2003.  
 4:30-7 PM    HP Offices    . 2 Penn Plaza 8th Floor ( 7th Ave and 32nd St)   9 4:30 - 5:00     Check in and old-style DECUS Networking.    @ 5:00 - 5:10     Lynne Hummel, High Performance System Sales,HP:   C Welcome and announcements- "EV7-based Alpha servers" aka "Marvel".    >  5:10 - 5:15     Gary McCready: LUG and Encompass Business and
 Announcements   E 5:15 - 5:30     HP Product Update   John Dunnder  "HP Backup Solution 	 Hardware"   B 5:30 - 7:00     Shaun Ellis, Legato "Case Study of a Heterogeneous Backup Solution"  F This presentation will cover the implementation of a large centralizedF backup solution managed by a central server. The presentation has beenD updated to take advantage of current technologies that have appeared. in the market since the actual implementation.  F Shaun Ellis is the product manager of the new Legato NetWorker OpenVMSC client and Management products for NetWorker. He was the architect, F main implementer and project manager of  the presented solution. Prior@ to Legato, he worked for Digital and Compaq for nearly 15 years,D delivering consulting for major customers on data center automation.  A For more information on the latest in Legato VMS products, please  visit   l http://portal1.legato.com/corporate_info/pressroom/press.cfm?oid=0006E61D-C306-1D90-886280CFAB3DFFFF&lang=en  @ To RSVP: send email to  nicolette.cicatelli@hp.com, Subject LUG   E You will be met by a HP employee at the security desk at the entrance E to the building (now at the 7th Avenue side). Should you arrive late, @ please call the HP reception desk at 212-856-2000 for an escort.A Please RSVP and plan to arrive before 5:15 pm as there is limited  seating available.  %  HP will provide light refreshments.    E For further information on the group you may contact Gary McCready at ' NYMLUG(at)McCready.com or 201-556-3359.   E Apologies are in order if you have received multiple versions of this D message. Feel free to forward this message to others who may have anD interest in attending - you do not have to be an Encompass member to attend.   D If you did not receive an "original" version of this message, please? join our mailing list at  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYMLUG/    * Next meeting: Storage over IP, April 14th.   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:37:28 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> K Subject: Re: memory errors and bugcheck dump (PROCGONE) with ALPHA 3000/600 ; Message-ID: <01KT344HQX8Y9FQH4P@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   J > Or steal your kids water cooled, overclocked, Dual Athlon gaming system = > and capture the input via a terminal emulator; Even Kermit?    ???   G Unfortunately, I don't have it now; it's probably on my hobbyist system D at home.  I have a screenshot of the FINGER command, showing that myG 8-year-old son was running EDT!  He has a VT320 in his room, but no PC! G His half-sister is 19 and still doesn't have a PC, though she shares an G old one with her mother.  I wrote him a DCL menu interface where he can B do things like send and receive email (only to and from me), writeG texts, read texts he has written etc.  One of my greatest triumphs was  8 when he said "Mama's PC doesn't have a REAL keyboard"!     Start 'em young I say!   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:35:14 +0100$ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>Y Subject: Re: OT but worth posting, virus warning:         "FWD: Look at this pack from Mi + Message-ID: <00A1C53C.186C3E68.40@decus.de>   ' "Shane Smith" <ssmith@icius.com> wrote:   B > I just got some clueless skript kiddie send me "q414183_exe.vir"D > directly to this address, and the mailing list was quite obviouslyD > harvested from one or more of info-vax's newsgroups. McAfee didn'tF > identify the virus or trojan, but it's pretty obviously some kind ofC > crack attempt, so I thought I'd just send out a quick heads up. I I > realise probably nobody on this list is dumb enough to fall for it, but  > everyone has off moments.  > G > He tried to hide the origin, but the relay put the genuine IP address J > next to the server name he was claiming, so I've reported him in detail.  F I finally got it too. Apparently on its way to my mail account it got  identified by a virus scanner:   > Content-Type: text/plain; @ >      name="alert_OA1217_1046685278_GPCCOR12_1#q133621.exe.txt"" > Content-Disposition: attachment;D >      filename="alert_OA1217_1046685278_GPCCOR12_1#q133621.exe.txt" > D > ********   McAfee GroupShield for Microsoft Exchange    **********H > ********************************************************************** > @ > Alert generated on: Monday, March 03, 2003 04:54:38 AM Eastern > Standard Time  >  > ; > The file q133621.exe has been replaced as it contains the  > W32/Gibe.b@MM virus.6 > Please consult the Graham Helpdesk for further help.   DECUS is running VMS of course.    Michael    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 03 16:16:27 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) 5 Subject: Re: OT: America's Cup  [ was Re: I am back ] ) Message-ID: <V6TZCiOtwaba@elias.decus.ch>   h In article <bRl8a.966$L7.85759@nasal.pacific.net.au>, HARANGOZO CSABA   <spameater@spam.invalid> writes:, > Paul Sture <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote: > [...snip...] > = > 	Congratulations to Switzerland winning the America's Cup !  > @ > 	( I just wonder where they will defend it, being a landlocked > 	country... )  > 						Cheers,  Csaba  D Thanks for the thought :-) I didn't realize that it has been so long  since a European country won it:  D "For the first time since 1851, the America's Cup is thus now on itsD way back to Europe, with Switzerland as the first landlocked countryE to succeed in the battle for the world's oldest and most sought-after  sailing trophy."       --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 2003 10:24:26 -0800 1 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) K Subject: Press Release - A management buy out of Heroix Corporation Limited = Message-ID: <857e9e41.0303031024.42efe57c@posting.google.com>   4 If you need a nice word document please let me know. sue   
 _____________   @ RELEASE CONTACT:Andrew CrispInternational Business ManagerItheonC LimitedTel: +44 (0)1707 336600Andrew.crisp@itheon.com	FOR IMMEDIATE = RELEASE Management Buy Out Announcing Itheon:  specialists in  Automating Service Availability   2 A management buy out of Heroix Corporation Limited  > Welwyn Garden City, Herts, UK.  23rd February 2003 &#8212; TheF Directors, Paul Roxan and Frank Puranik, announced today that they hadE completed a Management Buy Out (MBO) of Heroix Corporation Limited in ? EMEA/AP.  The new company, known as Itheon Limited will be in a A position to offer a wider range of application and infrastructure F management solutions.  Funding the future expansion and development of> the new company are the principals of CircleX, a complementaryA solution provider within the network and storage management area. B More than just an MBO, the new company brings together a wealth ofD experience in the server, application, storage and network areas andA solutions are being developed within the Itheon labs to provide a C seamless integration between the different services to be provided. A Continued Growth - Itheon has full development rights to RoboMon, C RoboCentral and RoboER and a development plan is in place to ensure F the further growth of these proven solutions. Itheon believes stronglyB in a 'Best of Breed' approach with integrated components. Itheon'sE vision is to continue offering self-healing automated point products, : which can be integrated to create a single end-to-end highB availability management solution, but the company has no desire toD become a framework vendor.  Instead, Itheon will continue to developD and support technology that enables users to view events from Itheon: solutions through Enterprise Consoles such as HP OpenView.  B Itheon will sell its solutions to new customers and its large blueF chip customer base, and will be partnering with key solution providers) to offer enhancements to their offerings.   ? HP OpenVMS &#8211; A key part of the strategy is to continue to A support and further develop solutions for OpenVMS servers from HP A including the future Itanium based servers.  These solutions will D include new application monitoring suites as well as enhancements toF existing solutions to fully encompass new features introduced with theC GS series and continued with Marvel.  One early development will be ? the creation of a new web interface for OpenVMS, Tru64 Unix and = Microsoft Windows to offer a simple method of configuring the & solutions and rules using any browser.E The Itheon solutions are already widely used by HP customers globally C as a part of the Disaster Tolerance service provided by the HP DTCS D team based in Bristol, U.K. It is hoped that continued collaboration@ with the team will lead to further developments which will prove# valuable in the wider BCRS context. C New Offerings - Itheon has recently developed TotalView which links E physical objects to business processes allowing a business-orientated E views of the health of IT systems, and also delivers, through the use E of an advanced correlation engine, true root cause problem analysis.  D In addition, Itheon has developed a specialist network analysis toolD that provides full network application response time monitoring, andB real time network traffic analysis - including what's in any givenE network pipe. CircleX and Itheon are also working together developing & new solutions within the storage area.= "Today it is not enough to simply monitor and manage servers, E application, storage and networks in isolation.  Our customers demand D the ability to be fully aware of the impact the IT infrastructure isD having on their business."  Paul Roxan, Managing Director of Itheon,C commented, &#8220;With our enterprise strength service availability D solutions and understanding the needs of companies, large and small,E we have a clear vision going forwards of providing customers with the > solutions they need to maintain their competitive edge.&#8221;   ItheonC Itheon specialises in high availability, performance management and D Automated Service Level Management (ASLM) for applications, systems,C networks, and storage management, offering their customers a proven D fast time to value.  With over 15 years experience in automating theC monitoring and management of IT infrastructures, Itheon understands @ the importance of relating IT to the business, and today many ofC Itheon's world-class customers such as Vodafone, Reuters, Yell, Cap @ Gemini, Anite and many more are using Itheon products to deliverA robust business solutions.  Itheon is a registered Microsoft Gold B Certified Partner and works closely with HP and IBM offering theirD customers a 'best-of-breed' integrated solution.  Itheon has officesC in Woerden, Netherlands and its Headquarters in Welwyn Garden City, E Herts UK, together with a distributed network of resellers worldwide. 2 For more information, please visit www.itheon.com.   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:57:00 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> % Subject: Re: Questions on SSH for VMS ; Message-ID: <01KT376BU2MA9FQH4P@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   F > In addition to the products mentioned by other replies, there is theF > STUNNEL software (available from HP OpenVMS site), which establishesC > OpenSSL based SSL/TSL servers on both sides, then one can use any ' > application to run over these ports.     Could you expand on this?    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:02:08 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> % Subject: Re: Questions on SSH for VMS ; Message-ID: <01KT37COIHIG9FQH4P@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   E > SSH will be a standard part of TCP/IP V5.4. It will be based on the J > 'real' SSH. I don't know if you will be able to use TCP/IP V5.4 with VMS3 > 7.1-2. An upgrade to VMS 7.3-1 may be advisable.    & When will this be generally available?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:26:29 -0500 & From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>% Subject: Re: Questions on SSH for VMS 8 Message-ID: <c0476v8d47fk33adgfg7uvk3pdhh6nccfk@4ax.com>  7 On Mon, 03 Mar 2003 02:38:46 GMT, "John Gemignani, Jr." & <jon-nope@thiswontworkossc.net> wrote:   >> >Older than what? >>M >> TCP/IP V5.3 supports only 7.2-2 and higher.  MultiNet, TCPware and SSH for L >> OpenVMS support AXP 6.2 and higher, and VAX 5.5-2 and higher.  That's oldD >> version support.  I would be surprised to see TCP/IP V5.4 support >> much older than 7.3.  >  >How surprised?  >   N Very surprised -- so, surprise me. What versions of OpenVMS VAX and Alpha willE TCP/IP SERVICES V5.4 be supported on, including any subsequent ECO's? I ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot com I Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only) I -------------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 12:24:59 -0500 & From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>% Subject: Re: Questions on SSH for VMS 8 Message-ID: <uo376vkm0kar50tdacovhrbc6nog0l2a3d@4ax.com>  7 On Sun, 02 Mar 2003 23:13:19 GMT, "John Gemignani, Jr." & <jon-nope@thiswontworkossc.net> wrote:   > 3 >"Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message < >news:5.2.0.9.2.20030301151203.017f85a0@raptor.psccos.com...) >> At 02:47 PM 3/1/2003, Dirk Munk wrote:  >>I >> *BUT* it will only provide an SSH client, no server.  And it certainly  >won't8 >> run on anything older, unlike Process Software's SSH. > 1 >TCP/IP V5.4 will include both client and server.  >  >Older than what?   P I assume he meant older versions of OpenVMS. TCP/IP SERVICES V5.4 is unlikely toN install on anything older than V7.3, I suspect -- since that is true for V5.3.M OTOH, MultiNet V4.4 (with SSH client and server) is supported on OpenVMS V5.0 O and later(!), while their "standalone" SSH product is supported on OpenVMS V6.2 " and later and UCX V4.2 and higher.I ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot com I Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only) I -------------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:14:11 -0700 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> % Subject: Re: Questions on SSH for VMS A Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303111328.014b9e28@raptor.psccos.com>   * At 10:24 AM 3/3/2003, David M Smith wrote:8 >On Sun, 02 Mar 2003 23:13:19 GMT, "John Gemignani, Jr."' ><jon-nope@thiswontworkossc.net> wrote:  >  > > 5 > >"Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message > > >news:5.2.0.9.2.20030301151203.017f85a0@raptor.psccos.com...+ > >> At 02:47 PM 3/1/2003, Dirk Munk wrote:  > >>K > >> *BUT* it will only provide an SSH client, no server.  And it certainly  > >won't: > >> run on anything older, unlike Process Software's SSH. > > 3 > >TCP/IP V5.4 will include both client and server.  > >  > >Older than what?  > F >I assume he meant older versions of OpenVMS. TCP/IP SERVICES V5.4 is  >unlikely toO >install on anything older than V7.3, I suspect -- since that is true for V5.3. N >OTOH, MultiNet V4.4 (with SSH client and server) is supported on OpenVMS V5.0L >and later(!), while their "standalone" SSH product is supported on OpenVMS  >V6.2 # >and later and UCX V4.2 and higher.   I Actually, there's a doc error there.  We support VMS VAX 5.5-2 and higher / and VMS APX 6.2 and higher for SSH for OpenVMS.    ------J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+J | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |J | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |J | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |J | http://www.process.com        |                                        |J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 2003 09:15:44 -0800 1 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) < Subject: RDB "Tech Day" comes to New York on  March 14, 2003= Message-ID: <857e9e41.0303030915.13390934@posting.google.com>    Dear Newsgroup, : I know the speakers for this event and they are excellent.
 Warm Regards,  Sue     E Subject:      FW: RDB "Tech Day" comes to New York on  March 14, 2003   = Back by Popular Demand!!  Rdb Engineering comes to New York!    E Please forward this invitation to your colleagues with an interest in  Oracle Rdb.     Oracle Rdb Technical Update    B The intended audience is customers, resellers, and employees.  The topics will be technical.    E We will meet at the HP offices at 2 Penn Plaza ( 7th Ave at 31st St), F 8th Floor, New York/ Pacific Rooms.  Space is limited, please registerF as soon as possible.  We will offer coffee and rolls and later a light lunch.  C For security reasons, we must have a list of attendees prior to the 7 event.  Please RSVP to Lynne.Hummel@hp.com, subject RDB     March 14, 2003 Agenda    9AM  coffee and registration.    First speaker at 9:30AM C Status and Direction:                                         Kevin  Duffy B Optimizing Performance on Alpha                               Norm	 Lastovica B Snapshots in Row Cache and 64 bit Row Cache                   Norm Lunch and informal discussionsD Marvel and OpenVMS update                                     Gaitan D'AntoniB Data Replication in Rdb                                       Bill GettysD Oracle Rdb Futures                                            Kevin,
 Norm and Bill  Wrap up at 2 PM     Bios: F Kevin Duffy is the Director of Development for Oracle Rdb Engineering,E located in Nashua, NH. He has been a manager with Rdb since 1989. All ! Rdb development reports to Kevin.    = Norman J. Lastovica is a Principal Engineer within Oracle Rdb > Engineering located in Nashua, New Hampshire. Mr. Lastovica isE currently a member of the KODA team and shares responsibility for the B physical data storage, index, journaling, recovery, row cache, hot3 standby, and LogMiner components of the Rdb engine.    = Bill Gettys is a Principal Engineer with the Mission Critical C Engineering group, part of Oracle's Rdb Engineering. Mr. Gettys has D thirteen years of design and operational experience with Oracle Rdb,D including several major Oracle Rdb benchmark and prototyping effortsD on behalf of Rdb customers. He has assisted with database design andE application architecture for some of the largest Rdb databases in the D world. Mr. Gettys is coauthor of Oracle's Rdb Performance and TuningE Workshop and author of the Oracle Rdb Database Administration Course.   F Gaitan D'Antoni joins HP by way of Digital and Compaq.  He is a memberE of Mark Gorham's OpenVMS engineering team and works at our Nashua, NH  offices.  	 Abstracts  ABSTRACT: RDB STATUS: C This presentation will provide an overview of the overall strategic C direction for Rdb and features we plan to deliver in the next major E release.  Also included in this presentation will be 3 demos: Rdb and C Oracle9iAS; a sample program using the new Rdb native JDBC drivers; & and Oracle Enterprise Manager with Rdb   ! ABSTRACT: OPTIMIZING PERFORMANCE: D By rebuilding systems and applications for newer processors, you can; take advantage of the processor's new performance-enhancing @ capabilities and features. This presentation provides additionalC technical details covering how and why recompiling applications can B have a positive performance effect. Topic areas include  the AlphaA architecture (instructions, scheduling, memory access), available F compiler optimizations, Alpha system memory architectures, non-uniform? memory access (NUMA) characteristics, OpenVMS resource affinity B domains (RADs), as well as various application and Rdb performanceD enhancements.  Results of performance experiments of application andB Oracle Rdb code compiled with a variety of performance options andD memory access techniques are also demonstrated.  Future areas of Rdb? performance improvement from compiler optimization and platform $ targeting will be discussed as well>   ABSTRACT: SNAPSHOTS:  < This session provides technical details about the design andA implementation of two enhancement to the Row Cache feature. Topic F areas include current limitations, design goals, VMS memory management' considerations and development details.    ABSTRACT: DATA REPLICATION: C Oracle Rdb offers three distinct methods for data replication. Each D has advantages and disadvantages. This presentation will examine allD three methods, emphasizing where they are appropriate and where theyE are inappropriate. Real customers' experiences with all three methods  will be described.    ABSTRACT: VMS and ALPHA E ABSTRACT: FUTURES:This talk will discuss potential future project for  Rdb over the next 12-18 months.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:27:10 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> @ Subject: Re: RDB "Tech Day" comes to New York on  March 14, 2003E Message-ID: <OfM8a.37924$em1.32@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   > "Sue Skonetski" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> wrote in message7 news:857e9e41.0303030915.13390934@posting.google.com...  > Dear Newsgroup, < > I know the speakers for this event and they are excellent. > Warm Regards,  > Sue  >  > B > Subject:      FW: RDB "Tech Day" comes to New York on  March 14, 2003 > > > Back by Popular Demand!!  Rdb Engineering comes to New York! > D > Please forward this invitation to your colleagues with an interest in
 > Oracle Rdb.      Great news.     One suggestion to HP and Oracle:F Try to announce these sorts of events more than 3 weeks in advance. ItB makes travel planning and the requisite approvals process for many! people easier and less expensive.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 03 17:06:17 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) @ Subject: Re: Robert Deininger's 100 Quatloos are still unclaimed) Message-ID: <P39jqqBMi+Lr@elias.decus.ch>   o In article <x9v8a.122671$UXa.38927@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  > 8 > "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote in message% > news:PR1gHVsynhIk@elias.decus.ch...  >>G >> Whilst I am on a Murkyslush bashing, here is something that XP users  >> should take heed of:  >>- >> http://www.hevanet.com/peace/microsoft.htm  >>G >> A well written article about 16 ways that XP connects to a Microsoft C >> site, which reminds me of a posting I read shortly after it came  > out: >>7 >> "My XP computer spends its own time on the Internet"  >>@ >> At that time I was on ISDN, so each connection cost me money.E >> In that context, it is not only about privacy, but my bank balance  > too. >  > E > I wonder if the Microsoft XP license agreement explicitly warns you 
 > about this.  >   C That is the problem I have with software which denies you the right D to your money back if the seal is broken. You have to break the seal to read the agreement...     --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:34:31 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> @ Subject: Re: Robert Deininger's 100 Quatloos are still unclaimedH Message-ID: <HmM8a.37973$em1.22857@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  6 "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote in message# news:P39jqqBMi+Lr@elias.decus.ch...  > In articleD <x9v8a.122671$UXa.38927@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  > > : > > "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote in message' > > news:PR1gHVsynhIk@elias.decus.ch...  > >>C > >> Whilst I am on a Murkyslush bashing, here is something that XP  users  > >> should take heed of:  > >>/ > >> http://www.hevanet.com/peace/microsoft.htm  > >>? > >> A well written article about 16 ways that XP connects to a 	 Microsoft E > >> site, which reminds me of a posting I read shortly after it came  > > out: > >>9 > >> "My XP computer spends its own time on the Internet"  > >>B > >> At that time I was on ISDN, so each connection cost me money.? > >> In that context, it is not only about privacy, but my bank  balance  > > too. > >  > > C > > I wonder if the Microsoft XP license agreement explicitly warns  you  > > about this.  > >  > E > That is the problem I have with software which denies you the right F > to your money back if the seal is broken. You have to break the seal > to read the agreement...    C Find a lawyer and a judge. This 'you can only read the license once F you've opened the package and by then it's too late' premise fails the "reasonable person" test.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 08:04:35 +0100  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> Subject: Re: SCS/DECnet over IP 2 Message-ID: <b3uupr$qok$1@news4.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>   Antony Wardle wrote: > SCS/DECnet over IP >  >  > can we do this yet?  > 2 > I get a hard time about all the bridging/routing > going on, on the network.  >  > antony >  >  >   N DECnet over IP has been included in DECnet-plus (DECnet Phase V / DECnet OSI)  for years now.  M SCS needs to be fast with very low latency !! Routing overhead would be very   undesirable.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 03:39:17 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: SCS/DECnet over IP / Message-ID: <3E630679.D568811D@vl.videotron.ca>    Dirk Munk wrote:N > SCS needs to be fast with very low latency !! Routing overhead would be very > undesirable.  N Isn't SCS, like LAT, totally unroutable, operating at the raw ethernet level ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:46:11 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: SCS/DECnet over IP ) Message-ID: <3E635CA3.7F81FDEA@127.0.0.1>    Antony Wardle wrote: >  > SCS/DECnet over IP >  > can we do this yet?  > 2 > I get a hard time about all the bridging/routing > going on, on the network.   F SCS, System Communication Services, is a reasonably low-level protocolE 60-07 which runs over the System Communications Architecture (or what G supports it) and typically includes inter cluster member communications 1 and mass storage control protocol communications.   F When it comes to the cluster, the configuration rules are very preciseD and defined. This is because the systems in a cluster go to a lot ofH effort, and it is far more complicated than a totting up and counting ofC the votes, to assure membership, and perform correct link failover,  reconfiguration, formation etc.   D The problem with getting a networking protocol involved, is that theF cluster system loses control of the direct path rules. This could lead+ to the cluster making some wrong decisions.   G e.g. Have two network cards in two systems, run them BOTH into a single  switch.   H The VMScluster will see two apparently independent cluster interconnects# and one can fail over to the other.   A In reality, if the switch failed, the cluster would lose both its H primary and what it thought was a redundant path simultaneously, and the switch is a liability.  H Scale this up with several cluster members and several switches and moreE network interfaces, and it starts to look very messy, and the cluster ! connection manager gets confused.   ; (The connection manager actually stores away a few best fit F configurations, but that picture may have been artificially created by4 the network illusion caused by a switched protocol).  D If you extend this to IP, IP was designed as a "throw the packet andG hope it gets there" type of protocol, and "if it doesn't get there, try A another way" and it doesn't much care for timing. State timing in D clustering on the other hand is a very careful business. IP could beH compared to a giant slow switch, and I've already mentioned why they mayH not be healthy for your cluster. IP is not a guaranteed delivery system, the SCA on the other hand, is.  C Now, you may now also have seen a good argument for a single bit of , crossover cable slung between the systems...  F DECnet is different, however, 'DEC' protocols in general are better atH data delivery in the IP "jack of all trades, master of none" world. Most? IP packages for VMS allow encapsulation, but, similar to my LAT G description, DECnet is the bucket for carrying data, IP is a paper bag, > and putting a bucket in a paper bag works fine until it rains.   --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 08:03:54 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>  Subject: Re: SCS/DECnet over IP % Message-ID: <3E636EDA.80702@MMaz.com>    Dirk Munk wrote:   > Antony Wardle wrote: >  >> SCS/DECnet over IP  >> >> can we do this yet? >>3 >> I get a hard time about all the bridging/routing  >> going on, on the network. > D > DECnet over IP has been included in DECnet-plus (DECnet Phase V /  > DECnet OSI) for years now. > G > SCS needs to be fast with very low latency !! Routing overhead would   > be very undesirable. > G Isn't that one of the primary reasons for UDP, transmission of packets  E without the session overhead, thereby helping to reduce the latency?     Barry    --    @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:53:00 +0000 (UTC), From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)8 Subject: SCSI cluster disk thrashing between connections. Message-ID: <b408ac$8b3$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  I I have a 6-node Alphacluster running VMS 7.3-1, with all disks mounted on , all nodes.  2 of the nodes share a SCSI bus.  F There is one high-traffic disk on the shared SCSI bus -- it's a shadowH member of the system disk for 5 nodes.  I think the fact that it is highH traffic has more bearing on the problem than the fact that it's a shadow? set member or a system disk.  The host SCSI ID's are 14 and 15.   G The problem is the two hosts are fighting over the disk.  Every time it H gets accessed from the other machine, I get the following OPCOM message:  5     Mount verification has completed for device DSA0:   0 After a few dozen of these, I get something like  K     8:46:06.74 Multipath access to device $5$DKA100: has been auto switched 2     from path PKC0.1 (MAZDA) to path MSCP (LUMINA)  K And then soon after (maybe the next time the load eases), it switches back.   J Is there a way I can tell Mazda (and all other nodes) to go through Lumina9 if possible, using Mazda's connection only as a failover?   + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:17:52 -0500- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> B Subject: Re: SET NOTRUNCATE (was: RE: Upcoming VMS improvements ?)6 Message-ID: <b4068o$1q54r1$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>   Alan E. Feldman wrote: >...G > In the case from my last job, I had a huge text version of a database G > file that I needed to examine. The goal, IIRC, was to be able to scan D > values from distant columns in successive rows. The goal was to beF > able to, IN A SINGLE VIEW, look at and analyze the values from theseC > columns and perhaps even other columns. I don't remember exactly.  > E > With SET NOTRUNCATE, this would have been piece of cake. A piece of G > CHOCOLATE cake. But because the lines were .gt. 255 chars, I couldn't  >...  L Alan, if you can try this the next time you need to edit a file that exceedsJ EDT's 255 line limit but want to use EDT's NOTRUNCATE feature. It does notI duplicated the SET NOTRUNCATE look, but it might help. To use it, put the K procedure in a .TPU file, EXTEND TPU * and SAVE your extended section file.   I Then edit your file with long lines using the new section file, use EVE's J "TWO" command to split the window for as many sections you need, use SHIFTD RIGHT and SHIFT LEFT to position your windows on the columns you areJ interested in then look around in one of the windows. When you find a lineJ you are interested in use the command "SYNC WINDOWS" (you can define a keyK for this) and the current line in all your windows will turn bold. I tested G this by doing a SHOW SYSTEM/OUT=TMP.TXT and editing the TMP.TXT. I then L split the window into three views with one view at column 0, one SHIFT RIGHT 80 and one SHIFT RIGHT 100.   J If it helps then let me know. If it does help then maybe someone out thereH can modify it so the line you are looking for moves to the same relativeJ position in the window, that is the only thing I see that doesn't look OK,( but I have to get back to real work now.   procedure eve_sync_windows;    local   the_count,         this_window,         user_select, !       sr1,7         total_lines,            ! total lines in buffer 3         the_line,               ! the line we're on >         status,                 ! result of eve$what_line call0         eob_flag,               ! true if at eob?         percent;                ! percent of way through buffer    on_error     [OTHERWISE]: endon_error;   this_window := current_window;C status := eve$what_line (total_lines, the_line, percent, eob_flag);    the_count := 1;  loop3         exitif the_count > eve$x_number_of_windows;          eve_next_window;(         if current_window <> this_window                 then)                         User_select := 0; !                         sr1 := 0; /                         eve_line (the_line,""); 4                         user_select := select(bold);,                         position (LINE_END);,                         sr1 := select_range;:                         message ("Done with this window");/                         update(current_window);                  endif;#         the_count := the_count + 1;  endloop;   return (status);   endprocedure   -- Peter WeaverD Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer,A nor the company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that it  sub-contracts to.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 03 Mar 03 12:29:24 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com  Subject: Re: unix + Message-ID: <b3vke7$7ke$5@bob.news.rcn.net>   5 In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-OZcMfoIqdNIW@localhost>, 1    djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) wrote: : >On Sun, 2 Mar 2003 10:20:09 UTC, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > , >> In article <0PL33tx$iQG4@elias.decus.ch>,C >> >Memories of a DEC comms program back in the late 1970s here. It E >> >could have saved us an awful lot of money but didn't work. We had E >> >the source for at least some of it, but all the comments had been  >> >stripped. Plain stupid IMO.  >> >A >> I don't believe that.  I would believe that the comments never 
 >> existed.    > # >Obviously self-commenting then :-)   = NOpe.  You have to understand that these guys did not comment ; for the benefit of the code reader.  The comments were for  : their benefit and ONLY their benefit.  It wasn't until the< company got too big that commentary was deemed necessary for9 the maintenance group.  In the beginning, maintenance was = done by the developers.  I don't know how to communicate this : to you people who 1. haven't done OS development as their 7 primary business and 2. can't conceive of a development ? business where the maintainers rarely saw, let alone talked to, ; the developers.  This last one happens when the offices are  geographically isolated.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:15:18 GMT + From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>  Subject: Re: unix ) Message-ID: <ud6l88rf5.fsf@earthlink.net>    jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: ? > NOpe.  You have to understand that these guys did not comment = > for the benefit of the code reader.  The comments were for  < > their benefit and ONLY their benefit.  It wasn't until the> > company got too big that commentary was deemed necessary for; > the maintenance group.  In the beginning, maintenance was ? > done by the developers.  I don't know how to communicate this < > to you people who 1. haven't done OS development as their 9 > primary business and 2. can't conceive of a development A > business where the maintainers rarely saw, let alone talked to, = > the developers.  This last one happens when the offices are  > geographically isolated.  E separated in space &/or time .... I once had somebody from the branch F office that served AT&T longlines in NJ come looking for me because of! some 10-15 year old kernel stuff.   D in earlier times ... i likedimplementing things in zero instructionsB (aka nominally purely as side effects of other things happening inF carefully ordered sequence).  years later ... somebody would make someC random change and mess everything up ... and not have the slightest  clue as to what was happening.   --  3 Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/  A Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm    ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 03 Mar 03 13:44:37 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com  Subject: Re: unix + Message-ID: <b3vor7$m3m$2@bob.news.rcn.net>   ) In article <ud6l88rf5.fsf@earthlink.net>, /    Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:  >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:@ >> NOpe.  You have to understand that these guys did not comment> >> for the benefit of the code reader.  The comments were for = >> their benefit and ONLY their benefit.  It wasn't until the ? >> company got too big that commentary was deemed necessary for < >> the maintenance group.  In the beginning, maintenance was@ >> done by the developers.  I don't know how to communicate this= >> to you people who 1. haven't done OS development as their  : >> primary business and 2. can't conceive of a developmentB >> business where the maintainers rarely saw, let alone talked to,> >> the developers.  This last one happens when the offices are >> geographically isolated.  > " >separated in space &/or time ....  - YES!  Time is a whole different ball of mess.   ( > .. I once had somebody from the branchG >office that served AT&T longlines in NJ come looking for me because of " >some 10-15 year old kernel stuff.  E <GRIN>  JMF had that.  The guy got upset with him because he couldn't B recall the code.  From the story the upset guy told me, it soundedA like the code in question wasn't JMF's at all but a maintainer's. - That was another thing that Jim could do.  He : could recall all of his old code and some of others' code.   > F >in earlier times ... i liked implementing things in zero instructionsC >(aka nominally purely as side effects of other things happening in  >carefully ordered sequence).   ? Oh, good grief.  That normal programming in the olden -10 days. A I heard stories of those guys (hardware types) working for months < bumming bits and doing strange (to me, strange) things.  ForA a long time, a lot of them were working on the 'zero all of core, > including all ACs ' problem.  They quit when a guy figured outA how zero them all with the exception of (I think) one bit in AC0.     . > ..  years later ... somebody would make someD >random change and mess everything up ... and not have the slightest >clue as to what was happening.   B That was exactly why JMF refused to mess with TW's code.  TW could? never remember code he wrote yesterday, let alone code he wrote C years ago.  So he also had a relunctance to mess with his own code. B When TW commented, it was to remind him of something he'ld already> forgotten once.  He would get real annoyed if he had to do the same thing twice.    /BAH      ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:51:16 -0500 * From: "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> Subject: Re: unix ; Message-ID: <pan.2003.03.03.14.51.14.751529@nospam.invalid>   > On Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:15:18 +0000, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:   > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: @ >> NOpe.  You have to understand that these guys did not comment> >> for the benefit of the code reader.  The comments were for = >> their benefit and ONLY their benefit.  It wasn't until the ? >> company got too big that commentary was deemed necessary for < >> the maintenance group.  In the beginning, maintenance was@ >> done by the developers.  I don't know how to communicate this= >> to you people who 1. haven't done OS development as their  : >> primary business and 2. can't conceive of a developmentB >> business where the maintainers rarely saw, let alone talked to,> >> the developers.  This last one happens when the offices are >> geographically isolated.  > G > separated in space &/or time .... I once had somebody from the branch H > office that served AT&T longlines in NJ come looking for me because of# > some 10-15 year old kernel stuff.  > F > in earlier times ... i likedimplementing things in zero instructionsD > (aka nominally purely as side effects of other things happening inH > carefully ordered sequence).  years later ... somebody would make someE > random change and mess everything up ... and not have the slightest   > clue as to what was happening.  I I think Tolkein got it wrong.  "Meddle not in the affairs of wizards, for E their subtleties are quick to anger" even if the wizard is long gone.    --   --John- Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net # (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)    ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 21:16:58 +0000 (UTC) From: is@serpens.de ()& Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth% Message-ID: <b3tsc9$k2j$1@serpens.de>   % I might be late to comment, but this:   L In article <g1ku0v0s2vg9gil7rtjb9m30pliqh5np41@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis wrote:  B >VAX interrupt handling was also really "heavy" -- benchmarks withA >the same I/O device configurations showed that 11/780s could not ? >handle as many interactive users or SCADA device interrupts as A >11/70s and other I/O was no faster on the 11/780. This situation B >did not get better until terminal servers and LAT were available.   toggled my memories.  J As a 3rd year student at what is now known as {astro,physik}.uni-bonn.de, J I was a student programmer slave to some PhD student (Hi C.!) who designedH and implemented sort of an early version of USB to control vacuum pumps B and magnets and similar devices at a new extension to the electronJ accellerator. That is, the master was an 11/750, some serial daisy chainedG bus operated in master-slave fashion connected to ECB bus cages with an J i8085 board and some interface hardware in them (and I had to write mostlyH test software for said 8085 cpus, to check they really could control theI hardware. I think of 3 programs which I wrote, 2 found that the interface  hardware was faulty.) Anyway...   G There was another 11/750 side-by-side with mine, some older equipment,  G a 11/780 (and for some time a PDP-10 of some sort) in another room, and H lots of terminals all over the building, a few connected to our machine,G lots to the 11/780. The 780 used to be known as PIB:: on HEPNET and as   DBNPIB5 on EARN.  ? The 780 administrator talked one day to C and told him that his D machine would at certain times of day be nearly 100% on the interuptD stack.  C asked for the numbers of terminals connected to old serialA i/o boards (that needed one interupt per output character), did a G back of the head calculation, (N lines times 1 input char resulting in  A 2k output chars per second times K microseconds per interupt) and  offered advice.   C The advice was to move as many serial lines as possible to the more H intelligent serial interface boards, or to terminal servers talking LAT.  H Apparently, full screen editors put some stress at output capabilities.    Regards, 	-is   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 10:32:28 +0000 (UTC) From: is@serpens.de ()& Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth% Message-ID: <b3vavs$bgv$1@serpens.de>   % I might be late to comment, but this:   L In article <g1ku0v0s2vg9gil7rtjb9m30pliqh5np41@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis wrote:  B >VAX interrupt handling was also really "heavy" -- benchmarks withA >the same I/O device configurations showed that 11/780s could not ? >handle as many interactive users or SCADA device interrupts as A >11/70s and other I/O was no faster on the 11/780. This situation B >did not get better until terminal servers and LAT were available.   triggered my memories.  J As a 3rd year student at what is now known as {astro,physik}.uni-bonn.de, J I was a student programmer slave to some PhD student (Hi C.!) who designedH and implemented sort of an early version of USB to control vacuum pumps B and magnets and similar devices at a new extension to the electronJ accellerator. That is, the master was an 11/750, some serial daisy chainedG bus operated in master-slave fashion connected to ECB bus cages with an J i8085 board and some interface hardware in them (and I had to write mostlyH test software for said 8085 cpus, to check they really could control theI hardware. I think of 3 programs which I wrote, 2 found that the interface  hardware was faulty.) Anyway...   G There was another 11/750 side-by-side with mine, some older equipment,  G a 11/780 (and for some time a PDP-10 of some sort) in another room, and H lots of terminals all over the building, a few connected to our machine,G lots to the 11/780. The 780 used to be known as PIB:: on HEPNET and as   DBNPIB5 on EARN.  ? The 780 administrator talked one day to C and told him that his D machine would at certain times of day be nearly 100% on the interuptD stack.  C asked for the numbers of terminals connected to old serialA i/o boards (that needed one interupt per output character), did a G back of the head calculation, (N lines times 1 input char resulting in  A 2k output chars per second times K microseconds per interupt) and  offered advice.   C The advice was to move as many serial lines as possible to the more H intelligent serial interface boards, or to terminal servers talking LAT.  H Apparently, full screen editors put some stress at output capabilities.    Regards, 	-is   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 10:30:39 +0000 (UTC) From: is@serpens.de ()& Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth% Message-ID: <b3vasf$bbt$1@serpens.de>   % I might be late to comment, but this:   L In article <g1ku0v0s2vg9gil7rtjb9m30pliqh5np41@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis wrote:  B >VAX interrupt handling was also really "heavy" -- benchmarks withA >the same I/O device configurations showed that 11/780s could not ? >handle as many interactive users or SCADA device interrupts as A >11/70s and other I/O was no faster on the 11/780. This situation B >did not get better until terminal servers and LAT were available.   triggered my memories.  J As a 3rd year student at what is now known as {astro,physik}.uni-bonn.de, J I was a student programmer slave to some PhD student (Hi C.!) who designedH and implemented sort of an early version of USB to control vacuum pumps B and magnets and similar devices at a new extension to the electronJ accellerator. That is, the master was an 11/750, some serial daisy chainedG bus operated in master-slave fashion connected to ECB bus cages with an J i8085 board and some interface hardware in them (and I had to write mostlyH test software for said 8085 cpus, to check they really could control theI hardware. I think of 3 programs which I wrote, 2 found that the interface  hardware was faulty.) Anyway...   G There was another 11/750 side-by-side with mine, some older equipment,  G a 11/780 (and for some time a PDP-10 of some sort) in another room, and H lots of terminals all over the building, a few connected to our machine,G lots to the 11/780. The 780 used to be known as PIB:: on HEPNET and as   DBNPIB5 on EARN.  ? The 780 administrator talked one day to C and told him that his D machine would at certain times of day be nearly 100% on the interuptD stack.  C asked for the numbers of terminals connected to old serialA i/o boards (that needed one interupt per output character), did a G back of the head calculation, (N lines times 1 input char resulting in  A 2k output chars per second times K microseconds per interupt) and  offered advice.   C The advice was to move as many serial lines as possible to the more H intelligent serial interface boards, or to terminal servers talking LAT.  H Apparently, full screen editors put some stress at output capabilities.    Regards, 	-is   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 2003 06:39:44 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 7 Subject: Re: VMS AS400 Coboler needed in PA immediately 3 Message-ID: <w68g$iHV07WC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Y In article <io3bj-l1n.ln1@pez.jarai.com>, bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) writes:   H > Well I'll be damned.  It is worth noting that even Google suggests the. > term "OpenVMS" as a more likely alternative.  & The proper IBM term (in the past) was:   	MVS Open Edition    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 10:38:10 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy ! Subject: Re: VMS Backup solutions . Message-ID: <3E633092.5080403@nospamn.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:Z > In article <3E5F8EA5.8080306@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: > * >>All managed using UNIX backup utilities. >> >  >  >    How good are the restores?  >    Fine.   8 No system goes live without doing a bare metal recovery,4 this means that it is built from an OS, App and data standpoint.   7 It is backed up, trashed and then bare metal recovered.   5 We have had one recovery failure due to a faulty tape 7 which with the STK drives is very unusual but thats it.   8 Of course you need to have the right Fibre Channel stack to do this as well.   ' Without FCP2 things would be different.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 10:44:52 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy ! Subject: Re: VMS Backup solutions . Message-ID: <3E633224.8090305@nospamn.sun.com>   Marc Van Dyck wrote:M > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> ; > wrote in message news:3E5F8EA5.8080306@nospamn.sun.com...  > 	 >  > Humm  > C >>The Tape SAN that we have implimented at the retail customer I am @ >>engaged with at the moment supports around 120 Sun servers 20+ >>SF6800 and 5 SF15000.  >>= >>We have two STK Silos reach with 20 9740 FC drives. Current : >>storage footprint is ~60 TB with ~5 x that in the silos. >>. >>The largest backup job runs in at >100 MB/s. >>* >>All managed using UNIX backup utilities. >>	 >>Regards  >>Andrew Harrison  >> >  > = > Our shop is a mix of OpenVMS, T64 Unix, SUN solaris, Linux, @ > NT, and Tandem. Total on line storage about 15 TB net, OpenVMSE > owning 70% of it. We have centralized the media aspect, but not the B > backup engines. Unix and NT do it with Veritas; OpenVMS with itsB > own backup, supplemented by SLS; Tandem with its own gear, which > I don't know much. >   3 We are using Veritas Netbackup as well with Solaris $ and a bit of HP-UX and Windows 2000.  ' I meant 9940 drives BTW 9740 is a typo.   - We only have the two silos but otherwise your  setup seems very similar.   / We use FC from the hosts and media servers with 1 Brocade switches running in FC->FC-AL translation $ mode for the drives which are FC-AL.  . We have a mixture of central media servers and+ host based media servers. The central media 0 servers also backup point in time images created+ on the disk SAN for the highest volume DBMS  servers.  + > Centralization at the media level means :  > L > - Tape-specialized SAN built with SCSI/FC mutiplexers made by TD Systems ;. > - 4 StorageTEK silos, 5000 cartridges each ;G > - A bunch of 9840 (40 GB) or 9940 (400 GB) drives, all FC-connected ;  > A > The whole setup, silos included, is distributed over two sites, = > a few km from each other. We have or own fiber, 500+ pairs,  > between the two. > 8 > The interface between OpenVMS and the STK gear is done: > with an HP product that goes along with SLS, named DCSC.; > This is the part that scares us, because we haven't heard < > anything about the port to Itanium of this product yet. If: > this product goes away, the alternatives for OpenVMS are > not clear. >   8 Why can't you use Veritas I thought it was available for OpenVMS.  ? > This setup is quite expensive but incredibly efficient. Those * > interested can mail me for more details. >  > Marc.  >    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:37:28 GMT + From: "David Pikcilingis" <dcpik@attbi.com> ! Subject: Re: VMS Backup solutions ? Message-ID: <sUI8a.342448$Ec4.343078@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>   J As part of its OpenVMS emulation tool set, Boston Business Computing sellsF Vbackup, an OpenVMS BACKUP emulator that can read and restore savesetsI created by OpenVMS BACKUP on UNIX systems and can also create savesets on , UNIX that are can be read by OpenVMS BACKUP.  G Additional information can be found at www.bosbc.com/vbackup.html or by  contacting info@bosbc.com    David Pikcilingis  Boston Business Computing 
 www.bosbc.com   H "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:rU7mUPNNPtt7@eisner.encompasserve.org... G > In article <03022615422724@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>, brandon@dalsemi.com  writes: H > > Our VMS solution is to use BACKUP with DCL command files.  Automated= using ISAM files and scripts with logging, e-mail, reporting, J > > WWW, paging, etc.  All in-house created and maintained.  I have worked3 with SLS in the past and incorporated many of those / > > concepts into the in-house backup solution.  > > J > > We keep our tapes at a 95% to 98% capacity so we make efficient use of( our tapes, no multi-volume tapes either. > > F > > Unlike the NT or UNIX group, the VMS group has maintained a stable< backup solution incorporated with DR practices and policies. > J >    So they're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.  NT and UNIXI >    backup utilties are crap, or non-existant.  So they're assuming they / >    need to include VMS in the solution.  PHM.  > G > > I am greatly concerned with this new drive to centralize the backup = solution onto a UNIX platform.  They want to NFS mount drives ) > > and backup the data, etc.  Gasp-Argh!  > > K > > (?) I would like to know if anyone has a similar environment (NT, UNIX, 7 VMS) that has a successful enterprise solution and what  > > they are using.  > L >    A mixture of Legato on and native utilities non-VMS systems with little >    success other than on VMS.  >  > > (?) Any horror stories?  > E >    Normally when we loose a file, it has never been backed up.  The H >    responsible folks have procedures that they follow rigourously, but! >    those procedures don't work.  > 2 > > (?) What about Disaster Recovery implications? > 
 >    Sigh. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:48:10 -0500 ! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> ! Subject: Re: VMS Backup solutions ' Message-ID: <3E636B2A.39366747@vcu.edu>   B our university is using Tivoli quite nicely on nt, novell, various unices and VMS...    brandon@dalsemi.com wrote: > q > Our "newly" formed operations group is looking at enterprise backup solutions for our NT, UNIX, and VMS groups.  >  > Our VMS setup: > . > GS160, 4 each TL89-2 (35/70), 520-GB of data >  > Our VMS solution is to use BACKUP with DCL command files.  Automated using ISAM files and scripts with logging, e-mail, reporting,| > WWW, paging, etc.  All in-house created and maintained.  I have worked with SLS in the past and incorporated many of those- > concepts into the in-house backup solution.  > q > We keep our tapes at a 95% to 98% capacity so we make efficient use of our tapes, no multi-volume tapes either.  >  > Unlike the NT or UNIX group, the VMS group has maintained a stable backup solution incorporated with DR practices and policies.  >  > I am greatly concerned with this new drive to centralize the backup solution onto a UNIX platform.  They want to NFS mount drives ' > and backup the data, etc.  Gasp-Argh!  >  > (?) I would like to know if anyone has a similar environment (NT, UNIX, VMS) that has a successful enterprise solution and what  > they are using.  >  > (?) Any horror stories?  > 0 > (?) What about Disaster Recovery implications? >  > John Brandon > VMS Systems Administrator  > Dallas Semiconductor > john.brandon@dalsemi.com > 972.371.4172 wk  > 972.371.4003 fx    --  F "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship of the Ring"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 10:09:38 -0500 & From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>! Subject: Re: VMS Backup solutions 8 Message-ID: <jbr66vctcq43drnl16d6knscl8kv7idipu@4ax.com>  E On Mon, 03 Mar 2003 10:44:52 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy . <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:     > 9 >Why can't you use Veritas I thought it was available for 	 >OpenVMS.  >   E That's a very good question.  Actually, there are a few products that ( work with OpenVMS, with some exceptions.  E The main issue is the OpenVMS system disk.  To support clusters it is B implemented with file aliases between each system's own, specific,C system-specific directory, and the cluster-common directory.  These A are similar (in this context) to links in the Unix File System (I  think).   B The problem with most 3rd party backup tools on the OpenVMS system9 disk is that they ignore the alias "links" and backup the D cluster-common area with each system's own directory.  Thus, in a 13C node cluster they will backup that info 14 times - utilizes lots of E additional tape, and will definitely NOT restore to a bootable system  disk.   1 I think the main issues I've seen are as follows:   - 	1.	System disk backups not handled correctly 1 	2.	Due to this, restores will not work correctly - 	3.	No "bare metal" restore capability of the / 		system disk (i.e., booting off of the OpenVMS  		distribution CD)- 	4.	Often, the extended file semantics of the * 		VMS file system (protections, ACLs, etc)) 		will not be saved or restored correctly   ; Actually, I've always wondered if the alias entries for the E VMS$COMMON.DIR-->[SYSx]SYSCOMMON.DIR are unnecessary, since the SYS$* B rooted logicals are searchlists anyway.  If they are necessary, itF could due to the the low-level facilities that are needed during earlyE boot processes.  But I'm not involved in the product development area - so I don't get to work on investigating that.   B I believe that Legato has introduced a new version of their backupC software for OpenVMS that is supposed to have full OpenVMS support. D However I have not personally played with it yet so I don't have any" direct experience to present here.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 2003 09:20:19 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ! Subject: Re: VMS Backup solutions 3 Message-ID: <iSlRBv3SlDM$@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <jbr66vctcq43drnl16d6knscl8kv7idipu@4ax.com>, jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> writes:   G > The main issue is the OpenVMS system disk.  To support clusters it is D > implemented with file aliases between each system's own, specific,E > system-specific directory, and the cluster-common directory.  These C > are similar (in this context) to links in the Unix File System (I 	 > think).  > D > The problem with most 3rd party backup tools on the OpenVMS system; > disk is that they ignore the alias "links" and backup the F > cluster-common area with each system's own directory.  Thus, in a 13E > node cluster they will backup that info 14 times - utilizes lots of G > additional tape, and will definitely NOT restore to a bootable system  > disk.   H But those are just the issues that will occur uniformly at _every_ site.E Customers use aliases also, and don't want restore attempts to create $ duplicates in that situation either.  E Think of the VMS system disk as the "canary in the mine", warning you E when some multiplatform backup vendor has not _really_ met the ODS2/5  specification.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 2003 09:48:47 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ! Subject: Re: VMS Backup solutions 3 Message-ID: <O+CywjMUSaP+@eisner.encompasserve.org>   X In article <3E633092.5080403@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: >  >  > Bob Koehler wrote:[ >> In article <3E5F8EA5.8080306@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes:  >>  + >>>All managed using UNIX backup utilities.  >>>  >>   >>    >>    How good are the restores? >>   >  > Fine.    > 7 > We have had one recovery failure due to a faulty tape 9 > which with the STK drives is very unusual but thats it.  >   B    How many successful recoveries have you had despite a bad tape?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:40:54 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy ! Subject: Re: VMS Backup solutions . Message-ID: <3E6393A6.2070102@nospamn.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:Z > In article <3E633092.5080403@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: >  >> >>Bob Koehler wrote: >>[ >>>In article <3E5F8EA5.8080306@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes:  >>>  >>> , >>>>All managed using UNIX backup utilities. >>>> >>>  >>>   >>>   How good are the restores? >>>  >> >>Fine.  >  > 7 >>We have had one recovery failure due to a faulty tape 9 >>which with the STK drives is very unusual but thats it.  >> >  > D >    How many successful recoveries have you had despite a bad tape? >   2 Well every server thats running is an example of a$ sucessfull recovery. Thats over 120.  0 To date apart from that we have had 6-7 complete/ recoveries mostly because of upgrades and a few * hundred partial recoveries for developers.   Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:22:20 -0500 & From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>$ Subject: Re: Volume set across RAID58 Message-ID: <o1p66vct6k10is0ekt294b1bkvmhf6veg6@4ax.com>  7 On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 21:32:56 -0600, "David J. Dachtera"  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  
 >jlsue wrote:  >>  A >> You can pretty easily - via DCL scripts  - create snapshots or 8 >> snapclones to automate this at the controller level.  >  >Care to share the secrets?   : Well, EVM is one solution.  But SSSU scripts work as well.   >  >> It's much nicerE >> than the hszterm-like utilities of old when it comes to scripting.  > B >Until Cerner certifies 'em, it's still just a pipe dream to me...  E Fully understood.  Unfortunately I don't work daily with Cerner folks B so can't keep up with what they're doing to certify stuff.  For meC that's a special case issue as only some of my customers need worry B about it.  I can tell you that it works, but that won't help if it must have Cerner certification.   E For example, any backup job you have today that tells Oracle to put a A tablespace into backup mode while the backup runs can, instead of E running the backup, tell the EVA to take a snapshot & present the LUN B somewhere for the real bacukp, and then take the tablespace out ofB backup mode.  It just appears as a very fast backup.  Functionally: it's no different, but of course there are sometimes other considerations.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:35:03 -0500 & From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>$ Subject: Re: Volume set across RAID58 Message-ID: <chp66v47gtdrrangik9mo8g1ofp89te4p6@4ax.com>  E On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:56:37 GMT, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN'  LANGSTOEGER) wrote:      > H >Image an application where uptime is important and so the backup windowD >is minutes if not seconds. With HBVS there is a chance that you useF >3 member shadowsets and change one of the disks within this couple ofH >minutes (MINICOPY or maybe MINIMERGE) and then do the backup afterwardsE >from the outrotated disk. What is the best way to do this with EVA ?   ? Well, one way to do this would be to 1) quiesce the application E writes, 2) tell the EVA to take a snapshot (or snapclone) of the LUN, B 3) un-quiesce the application, and then 4) tell the EVA to presentD that new LUN somewhere.  The application is affected only during theE time it takes for 1-3 to complete.  And #2 is typically very fast, so 7 it depends on how quickly your app responds to #1 & #3.   ? So, for Oracle, you put the tablespace into backup mode, take a > snapshot (usually takes less than a minute), and then take theE tablespace out of backup mode.  You don't have all the extra overhead E of adding/removing disks from HBVS sets.  And the application & users ? typically do not see any outage during this with Oracle because 1 updates to the logs during the "quiescent" stage.   F Not only does it work to present the LUN to a backup server to copy toF tape, it also works to present the LUN to a QA system in the SAN to doF a full QA test on the full set of data.  And on EVA, the snapshots areB "space efficient".  This means that if you take a snapshot of yourA 500GB LUN, it doesn't require 500GB more of space initially.  The > space needs of the snapshot lun grows as changes occur to your original LUN.     D If you only make 100GB worth of changes to your data during the timeD that the snapshot exists, then it'll only use an additional 100GB of space out of the disk group.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 03 14:59:13 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) : Subject: Re: Wow - OpenVMS Job Advert in UK Computer Press) Message-ID: <0pjmOr+86iSe@elias.decus.ch>   x In article <ct$XpW$Zbsug@eisner.encompasserve.org>, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes:a > In article <v5ukph49n5mvbf@corp.supernews.com>, Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> writes:  >> Tim Llewellyn wrote:  >>   >>> Simon Clubley wrote: >>>  >>> > J >>> >Actually, I'm more interested in knowing what the VMS market is like  >>> >in the North... :-) >>>  >>> I >>> There is a VMS Basic Programmer position in West Yorks that has been  6 >>> knocking around on jobserve for months and months. >>  E >> West Yorkshire is *not* the North.  I'd say the North begins north D >> of Perth and Dundee.  So if Simon really is looking for somethingE >> in the North (Inverness ? Ullapool ?  Dounray ? :-), I don't think ! >> he's going to get many offers.  >>   > F > I'm in North Yorkshire, in the general area of York, and I've always' > considered myself to be in the North.  >   B It's been a long time since I looked at Jobserve, but I found thatE they would classify anything in Yorkshire as being in the North East.   C If asked in another context, I would say that the North East covers = the area between Middlesborough and the border with Scotland.    <snip>   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Mar 03 14:12:38 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) ! Subject: Re: [DFG] Some questions ) Message-ID: <DsR6lhJwzapd@elias.decus.ch>   d In article <PoX5a.50966$Rb4.707615@news.chello.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:J > The posting with the possible MAIL problem in DEFRAG V2.7 reminded me of, > some other problems I've seen with DEFRAG. >  > F > 1) DEFRAG always translates Filenames (Option File, Logfile, ...) atJ > Script define time to their real physical names. I find it very annoyingD > to have logicals in VMS and can't use the flexibility they provideB > because of this obvious misbehaviour of DEFRAG (Vx.y up to V2.7) >   E Maybe I'm not looking in the right place here. I have all those files ; in a directory tree pointed to by a concealed logical name.    $ defrag show version ( Disk File Optimizer for OpenVMS DFG V2.5     DFO> show DEFRAG_ORA030   D Volume script DEFRAG_ORA030 is ENABLED, LEVEL=2, device: DISK$ORA030' No defragmentation process is executing    2 Scheduler queue contains the following operations:<     DEFRAGMENT VOLUME DISK$ORA030 on 01-MAR-2003 10:00:00.00 Consolidate freespace % Script repeat interval: 7 00:00:00.00 ( Defragmentation time limit 1 00:00:00.00 Minimum Priority: 3  Default Priority: 4 ( Script may operate on any available node7 Log file: MGR_DISK:[DFG.ABC111]DEFRAG_ORA030.LOG;/BRIEF = Prologue file:  MGR_DISK:[DFG.ABC111]DFG_SHOW_BEF_ORA030.COM; B Epilog file: MGR_DISK:[MANAGER.DFG.ABC111]DFG_SHOW_AFT_ORA030.COM; Mail notification is OFF OPCOM notification is ON Special file handling:)     Exclude all specifically placed files   0 (ABC111 is the execution node name in the above)   > I > 2) I don't really understand why the DEFRAGger needs so many privileges J > (BYPASS, CMKRNL, DETACH, EXQUOTA, NETMBX, SHARE, SYSGBL, SYSLCK, SYSPRV,G > TMPMBX, and WORLD) for even showing scripts (especially BYPASS, which L > I've haven't set as /DEFPRIV of my own user). It is ok that the defraggingG > process itself might need them, but I think the DEFRAG SHOW/NOVOLUME, K > DEFRAG VOLUME/SCRIPT and DEFRAG MODIFY should not need that much of them.  >   @ Me neither. IIRC it even wants the privileges for a SHOW VERSION> (it reports the version then goes on to complain that it can'tF find a script named VERSION). I have a command procedure to switch all# those on when I'm working with DFG.    > L > 3) Opening (and Closing) the Full Volume Map (REPORT Volume Fragmentation)D > in DFG$DW.EXE brings every time 3 lines with the following Warning > F > X Toolkit Warning: Null child passed to XtUnmanageChildren	(at open)E > X Toolkit Warning: null child passed to XtManageChildren	(at close)  > 6 > I don't see real errors, only this annoying lines... >    I don't remember seeing this.    > K > 4) Installing DEFRAG creates every time (regardless if it already exists) P > the file DFG$DATABASE:DFG$MAIL.DIS with only one line "nodename::installuser".N > Despite the fact, that it should not create what already exists (and despiteO > the fact, that one can override the content of said file during installation) M > it is annoying that this mailaddress contains the nodename which might lead O > to an undeliverable mail (eg.when the installnode of a cluster is temporarily  > down). >   C Sorry, I haven't used the mailing facility, and don't use shelving.    <snip>   > J > 6) If I check my DEFRAGger (/FULL) logfile I always find many many filesH > marked as "OPEN" which I'm sure aren't touched by anyone at this time.H > Most of them are .DIR files at "dormant file placement" time, but IIRC > some are not.  > J > Is this normal, that directory files (eg. SYS$EXAMPLES:) are really open > and therefore not moveable ? >   D It must be 5 years since I looked at DFG in detail. I'll have a look at my logs tomorrow.   > TBC (to be continued)   C What I have noticed is the tremendous number of I/Os simply to list ? the database contents (thousands of them). I recreate a new DFG F database as part of the weekly run in order to minimize this overhead.     --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:54:43 GMT & From: Bob Willard <BobwBSGS@attbi.com>6 Subject: Re: [OT] Compelling reasons why NOT to use XP( Message-ID: <3E636CD3.2000109@attbi.com>   Carl Karcher wrote: E > In a previous article, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote:  > M > ->A good summarization of reasons not to use XP, if you are in a shop that  ) > ->is fighting these types of battles...0 > -> u. > ->http://www.hevanet.com/peace/microsoft.htm > G > Another article along those lines but far more encompassing with many" > good references is:s > / >   <http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html>  > F > Opinionated to be sure. This one steps back a bit farther and coversG > more general IT issues such as employment then describes "Microsoft'smH > Road Ahead" in great detail. A long read but well worth it. I urge allH > of you to at least read the Microsoft section - especially about .NET. >  > --I > -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-MadisonD6 > --             karcher.nomorespam@waisman.wisc.edu    C Neither of those articles make much mention of the sorry collectionc3 of backup apps for WinDuhs; none of which AFAIK do:D  A - correctly backup file data and metadata (e.g., the SFN problem) 1 - decently log and report device and media errorsM> - intelligently handle files which are opened for write/update  F There are other problems with backup under WinDuhs, but the list above4 means that WinDuhs is not ready for prime time IMHO. -- n Cheers, Bobe   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.122 ************************