1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 08 Mar 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 131       Contents:- RE: (OT) After two months of SAP training :-(  Re: Alpha 2100a  Re: Alpha 2100a . Blackmore comments on OpenVMS in Computerworld2 Re: Blackmore comments on OpenVMS in Computerworld Re: Carly's feedback link  RE: Carly's feedback link  Re: Carly's feedback link  Re: Carly's feedback link  RE: Carly's feedback link 6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? Re: Fibre Channel and SCS ) Re: hp DECforms V3.3 Product Announcement  Re: HSZ monitor from VMS?  Re: HSZ monitor from VMS?  Re: HSZ monitor from VMS? F Re: Maximum Record Size Error, -RMS-F-MRS, invalid maximum record sizeF Re: Maximum Record Size Error, -RMS-F-MRS, invalid maximum record sizeA Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices) A Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices) A Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices) A Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices) * Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlaying* Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlaying* Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlaying* Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlaying% Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) $ OpenVMS SSHv2 EAK and X11 forwardingP Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha RetaiP RE: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retai1 RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 5 RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Laugh your Butt Off ) Re: Probleme with Java and OpenVMS V7.3-1 ) Re: Programmatic telnet taking forever!!! ) Re: Programmatic telnet taking forever!!! ) Re: Programmatic telnet taking forever!!! ) Re: Programmatic telnet taking forever!!!  Re: Questions on SSH for VMSP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaB Re:THANKS ALL!! Anyone use a Compaq 20/40 dlt tape drive in a vax?, UK Hobbyist seeks personality (for BA356-JC) Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: VAX again: unix  Re: VAX again: unix  Re: VAX again: unix 1 Re: VAXstation 4000 VLC VMS 5.5-2 Boot Parameters G Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses G Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses @ Re: Want Multinet FTP listing to be 'ls -l' format to clients... XP (ugh) and LK46W-A2 keyboard- Re: [OT] After two months of SAP training :-( - Re: [OT] After two months of SAP training :-( - Re: [OT] After two months of SAP training :-(   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 17:53:11 -0500! From: VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com> 6 Subject: RE: (OT) After two months of SAP training :-(K Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BD1@rlghncst964.usps.gov>    Dave Gudewicz wrote:I > I once heard the SAP = Stops All Production.  After reading what Didier  had & > to say, I'm beginning to believe it.  : SAP projects tend to be very painfull and very overbudget.  > Which you can also read as very profitable for the consultants doing the implementation !   Arne    L I once saw a post that said SAP was actually an acronym for a German phrase < which was either "employment for life" or "income for life".  2 And for the life of me I can't find the reference.   ========================  William W. Webb - EMS Operations) OpenVMS Systems Support - USPS DSSC Annex , 4730 Hargrove Road, Raleigh, NC 27616-2874  > 919.325.7500 x4186  <FirstInitialLastNameAtEmailDotUSPSDotGov>   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 08:57:53 +1100B From: "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@noooo_spammm_optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: Alpha 2100a< Message-ID: <3e6915eb$0$27769$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>  - don't you just boot off the older firmware cd * or will that now not work because you have upgraded to a later version?  ' I have sucessfully gone from 6.3 to 6.0  on a couple of occasions.    kiwi        3 "Piotr Glowacz" <pglowacz@used.pl> wrote in message ) news:b49nja$abr$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl...  > Peter  > 3 > > Maybe you can find a way to get an EV4 firmware  > > version again in. & > > Look for keyword "failsafe loader" > > D > Thank you for your reply, but I've tried FSL already. In fact, I'm fightingI > with this problem for over a month, with no success. I've read any PDF, ; > available for AlphaServers, and didn't find the solution.  >  > Anyway, thank you again. >  > Best regards,  > Piotr Glowacz  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:52:54 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: Alpha 2100a' Message-ID: <3E695B06.36DB5EEB@fsi.net>    Antony Wardle wrote: > / > don't you just boot off the older firmware cd , > or will that now not work because you have > upgraded to a later version? > ) > I have sucessfully gone from 6.3 to 6.0  > on a couple of occasions.   G His problem is that he's switch to EV5 firmware, but still has EV4 CPUs D installed. He's hosed unless he can find (or at least borrow) an EV5 CPU.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 18:24:09 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> 7 Subject: Blackmore comments on OpenVMS in Computerworld / Message-ID: <v6iagq811kaj01@news.supernews.com>   K Q: Where does OpenVMS fit in the overall scheme of things at HP these days?   K A: It is already well on its way to being ported to IA-64. We will continue J to support it on IA-64. It is a very special class of operating system. WeK are not planning to do anything else other than to continue supporting this L environment, as well as the 450,000 users around the world that are on this.H So we are going to maintain it and make it run very well on Itanium. TheK same [is true] with the Non-Stop environment. It currently runs on the MIPS + chip. It will be migrated to IA-64 as well.      The full interview is at:   L http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,79158,00. html?nas=PM-79158   J "We are not planning to do anything else other than to continue supportingJ this environment...", is that good or bad?  Does he mean "we'll support itK but that's all" or, does he mean "we're not planning any sort of retirement . or migration, just full and complete support"?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:40:33 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>; Subject: Re: Blackmore comments on OpenVMS in Computerworld / Message-ID: <3E6949EE.AA2B5000@vl.videotron.ca>    John Vottero wrote: L > "We are not planning to do anything else other than to continue supportingL > this environment...", is that good or bad?  Does he mean "we'll support itM > but that's all" or, does he mean "we're not planning any sort of retirement 0 > or migration, just full and complete support"?  4 The May 7th announcements reflected this mentality.   N Then, when things seemed to improve, I was blasted for not beleiving it *yet*.J Seems that once again, the same thing happened: when we shout loud enough,N someone at HP does some token action to give us hope that things would change.+ Then, things slowly return to normal at HP.   G And the normal is that VMS will be maintained and upgraded for EXISTINg L customers but it won't really be allowed to me marketed abnd compete head to head against Unix and Windows.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 15:23:46 -0800 1 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link= Message-ID: <857e9e41.0303071523.6394a275@posting.google.com>    Dear Newsgroup,   D Just so you know.  I have heard that this "Carly link" is taken veryE seriously.  I have found that the automated reply is used only to let A folks know that their message was recevied.  All the messages are F reivewed by a team that Carly has in place, and action is taken.  This@ is also a good place to send positive comments not just negative issues.   
 Warm Regards,  Sue     a "Dave Gudewicz" <dgudewicz@core.com> wrote in message news:<v6hkm87srorv3a@corp.supernews.com>... E > I took advantage of this opportunity and sent in my letter.  Got an , > automated reply, which is what I expected. > J > I used terms such as emphasis, flagship product, security, clustering toK > name a few wrt VMS.  I did not ask that VMS be put on prime time 30 or 60 L > second commercial spots.  IMO that would be money not well spent.  I can'tA > imagine someone watching some reality show of late and actually G > perking/waking up when VMS was mentioned in any context.  And I don't L > remember ever seeing a MVS/HP-UX/Solaris/whatever type commercial.  What IL > have seen were things like "we put the dot in the dot com." and stuff like? > that.  That didn't make me run to the store and but one, btw.  > F > I did ask that VMS get more attention in the broader IT marketplace. > N > I suggest we all take advantage of this opportunity and keep those cards and > letters coming.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:43:13 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>" Subject: RE: Carly's feedback link0 Message-ID: <01C2E4C0.4D4163E0@sulfer.icius.com>   Thanks, Sue.  ; OK guys, time to send some "Sue Rocks" mails to Carly......    Shane    -----Original Message-----F From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com [mailto:susan_skonetski@hotmail.com]$ Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 3:24 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link     Dear Newsgroup,   D Just so you know.  I have heard that this "Carly link" is taken veryE seriously.  I have found that the automated reply is used only to let A folks know that their message was recevied.  All the messages are F reivewed by a team that Carly has in place, and action is taken.  This@ is also a good place to send positive comments not just negative issues.   
 Warm Regards,  Sue     5 "Dave Gudewicz" <dgudewicz@core.com> wrote in message + news:<v6hkm87srorv3a@corp.supernews.com>... E > I took advantage of this opportunity and sent in my letter.  Got an , > automated reply, which is what I expected. > J > I used terms such as emphasis, flagship product, security, clustering toK > name a few wrt VMS.  I did not ask that VMS be put on prime time 30 or 60 L > second commercial spots.  IMO that would be money not well spent.  I can'tA > imagine someone watching some reality show of late and actually G > perking/waking up when VMS was mentioned in any context.  And I don't L > remember ever seeing a MVS/HP-UX/Solaris/whatever type commercial.  What IL > have seen were things like "we put the dot in the dot com." and stuff like? > that.  That didn't make me run to the store and but one, btw.  > F > I did ask that VMS get more attention in the broader IT marketplace. > N > I suggest we all take advantage of this opportunity and keep those cards and > letters coming.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:12:04 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Carly's feedback linkL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0703032112040001@user-105n97s.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <01KT8JASQGB69FQH4P@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig+ <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:     J >Your enemies just have to do ONE THING to sabotage your dreams entirely, G >even if you produce some "commitments" from HP: bring in a witness who I >states "yeah, right, these same guys told me a few years ago that NT on  B >ALPHA was the future; we invested millions and are now orphaned".  G I seriously doubt any customer ever "invested millions" in NT on Alpha.   I Unless you mean millions of Quatloos.  And we know 100 Quatloos won't buy 5 you much, not even a working email client on Windows.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 19:34:43 -0800 1 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link= Message-ID: <857e9e41.0303071934.313f101c@posting.google.com>   E Shane thanks so much, but I was thinking more of VMS rocks. I am just D a worker here the engineers are really the ones that deserve a note.   Warm Regards and thanks again.   sue     \ Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> wrote in message news:<01C2E4C0.4D4163E0@sulfer.icius.com>... > Thanks, Sue. > = > OK guys, time to send some "Sue Rocks" mails to Carly......  >  > Shane  >  > -----Original Message-----H > From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com [mailto:susan_skonetski@hotmail.com]& > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 3:24 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com $ > Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link >  >  > Dear Newsgroup,  > F > Just so you know.  I have heard that this "Carly link" is taken veryG > seriously.  I have found that the automated reply is used only to let C > folks know that their message was recevied.  All the messages are H > reivewed by a team that Carly has in place, and action is taken.  ThisB > is also a good place to send positive comments not just negative	 > issues.  >  > Warm Regards,  > Sue  >  > 7 > "Dave Gudewicz" <dgudewicz@core.com> wrote in message - > news:<v6hkm87srorv3a@corp.supernews.com>... G > > I took advantage of this opportunity and sent in my letter.  Got an . > > automated reply, which is what I expected. > > L > > I used terms such as emphasis, flagship product, security, clustering toM > > name a few wrt VMS.  I did not ask that VMS be put on prime time 30 or 60 N > > second commercial spots.  IMO that would be money not well spent.  I can'tC > > imagine someone watching some reality show of late and actually I > > perking/waking up when VMS was mentioned in any context.  And I don't N > > remember ever seeing a MVS/HP-UX/Solaris/whatever type commercial.  What IN > > have seen were things like "we put the dot in the dot com." and stuff likeA > > that.  That didn't make me run to the store and but one, btw.  > > H > > I did ask that VMS get more attention in the broader IT marketplace. > > P > > I suggest we all take advantage of this opportunity and keep those cards and > > letters coming.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 19:36:27 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>" Subject: RE: Carly's feedback link0 Message-ID: <01C2E4E0.E625CF40@sulfer.icius.com>  G Yeah, I know you weren't looking for that. And yes, I suppose there are H several other VMS engineering people on the list that deserve kudos too.= They've been saving my butt on and off for ten years or more.   " So I send a list. You'll be on it.   Shane    -----Original Message-----F From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com [mailto:susan_skonetski@hotmail.com]$ Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 7:35 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link    E Shane thanks so much, but I was thinking more of VMS rocks. I am just D a worker here the engineers are really the ones that deserve a note.   Warm Regards and thanks again.   sue     / Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> wrote in message , news:<01C2E4C0.4D4163E0@sulfer.icius.com>... > Thanks, Sue. > = > OK guys, time to send some "Sue Rocks" mails to Carly......  >  > Shane  >  > -----Original Message-----H > From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com [mailto:susan_skonetski@hotmail.com]& > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 3:24 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com $ > Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link >  >  > Dear Newsgroup,  > F > Just so you know.  I have heard that this "Carly link" is taken veryG > seriously.  I have found that the automated reply is used only to let C > folks know that their message was recevied.  All the messages are H > reivewed by a team that Carly has in place, and action is taken.  ThisB > is also a good place to send positive comments not just negative	 > issues.  >  > Warm Regards,  > Sue  >  > 7 > "Dave Gudewicz" <dgudewicz@core.com> wrote in message - > news:<v6hkm87srorv3a@corp.supernews.com>... G > > I took advantage of this opportunity and sent in my letter.  Got an . > > automated reply, which is what I expected. > > L > > I used terms such as emphasis, flagship product, security, clustering toM > > name a few wrt VMS.  I did not ask that VMS be put on prime time 30 or 60 N > > second commercial spots.  IMO that would be money not well spent.  I can'tC > > imagine someone watching some reality show of late and actually I > > perking/waking up when VMS was mentioned in any context.  And I don't N > > remember ever seeing a MVS/HP-UX/Solaris/whatever type commercial.  What IN > > have seen were things like "we put the dot in the dot com." and stuff likeA > > that.  That didn't make me run to the store and but one, btw.  > > H > > I did ask that VMS get more attention in the broader IT marketplace. > > L > > I suggest we all take advantage of this opportunity and keep those cards and  > > letters coming.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:34:19 -0500' From: "Dale A. Marcy" <dqm@y12.doe.gov> ? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? , Message-ID: <b4as7r$k50$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov>  2 "Dale A. Marcy" <dqm@y12.doe.gov> wrote in message& news:b4arro$emu$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov... >  > 4 > "Dale A. Marcy" <dqm@y12.doe.gov> wrote in message( > news:b4abh0$lpj$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov... > > 8 > > "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message* > > news:6MAR200322362386@gerg.tamu.edu... > >  > > 8< snip >8 > > L > > > I don't normally use EVE. Or EDT, for that matter. I normally use LSE,L > > > but it is very similar to EVE in most respects (as I recall, back when I D > > > first tried them out EVE's "EDT" keypad had two differences in behaviorJ > > > from the real one but LSE's only had one - I no longer remember what the G > > > second one was, but the one LSE also has is that you can't have a  searchJ > > > patter that includes the end of line since both the "Return", or theL > > > equivalent Control-M, and "Enter" keys terminate the pattern and startJ > > > the search; not so with EDT, it lets you use "Return" (or ^M) in theL > > > search string as the pattern entry does not terminate when you hit it, > > > only when you hit Enter).  > > J > > You can search for end of line, but you have to type ^V^M for carriageF > > return and/or ^V^J for line feed while entering the search string. > >  > > 8< snip >8 > >  > > > --- Carl > > -- > > Dale A. Marcy  > > VMS System Manager9 > > SAIC - Science Applications International Corporation  > > (865)576-4942--  > >  > > Berra's Universal Law - 6 > > "Before everything changed, it was all different." > >  > >  > I > Sorry to reply to my own post, but I was mistaken.  I have used that to  findJ > carriage returns and line feeds embedded in a file, but it will not find the H > end of line.  You can use the wildcard find with a \< for beginning of lineK > or a \> for end of line, but these will not help find a line break in the  > middle of a string.  >  > Dale A. Marcy  > VMS System Manager7 > SAIC - Science Applications International Corporation  > (865)576-4942  >  > Berra's Universal Law - 4 > "Before everything changed, it was all different." >  >  >  >  >  >   J This is just not my day.  I made a mistake when I was testing the wildcardK find.  Using the \> will work to find a line break in the middle of string. ( I think I'll quit now while I am behind.  
 Dale A. Marcy  VMS System Manager5 SAIC - Science Applications International Corporation 
 (865)576-4942    Berra's Universal Law - 2 "Before everything changed, it was all different."   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:27:51 -0500' From: "Dale A. Marcy" <dqm@y12.doe.gov> ? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? , Message-ID: <b4arro$emu$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov>  2 "Dale A. Marcy" <dqm@y12.doe.gov> wrote in message& news:b4abh0$lpj$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov... > 6 > "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message( > news:6MAR200322362386@gerg.tamu.edu... >  > 8< snip >8 > J > > I don't normally use EVE. Or EDT, for that matter. I normally use LSE,L > > but it is very similar to EVE in most respects (as I recall, back when IK > > first tried them out EVE's "EDT" keypad had two differences in behavior L > > from the real one but LSE's only had one - I no longer remember what theL > > second one was, but the one LSE also has is that you can't have a searchH > > patter that includes the end of line since both the "Return", or theJ > > equivalent Control-M, and "Enter" keys terminate the pattern and startH > > the search; not so with EDT, it lets you use "Return" (or ^M) in theJ > > search string as the pattern entry does not terminate when you hit it, > > only when you hit Enter).  > H > You can search for end of line, but you have to type ^V^M for carriageD > return and/or ^V^J for line feed while entering the search string. >  > 8< snip >8 >  > > --- Carl > -- > Dale A. Marcy  > VMS System Manager7 > SAIC - Science Applications International Corporation  > (865)576-4942--  >  > Berra's Universal Law - 4 > "Before everything changed, it was all different." >  >   L Sorry to reply to my own post, but I was mistaken.  I have used that to findL carriage returns and line feeds embedded in a file, but it will not find theK end of line.  You can use the wildcard find with a \< for beginning of line I or a \> for end of line, but these will not help find a line break in the  middle of a string.   
 Dale A. Marcy  VMS System Manager5 SAIC - Science Applications International Corporation 
 (865)576-4942    Berra's Universal Law - 2 "Before everything changed, it was all different."   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 16:58:35 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303071658.6a8fb7e8@posting.google.com>   Z p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote in message news:<VgS1FoX92RT7@elias.decus.ch>...p > In article <b096a4ee.0303021552.620c4608@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: [...] I > >> Eh? I find those two statements contradictory. My view of EDT is the P > >> pure default (without the clutter of someone else's ideas, as contained in M > >> SYS$MANAGER:EDTINI.TEMPLATE), and almost certainly doesn't look anything  > >> like yours.   > > H > > Well, then you have to compare it with the pure default of EVE! EvenJ > > then, EDT wins hands down for me. And even the EVE fans admit that the+ > > default EVE keypad is somewhat lacking.  > . > Yes that is a slight pain, and the answer is >  > $ DEFINE EVE$KEYPAD EDT  > I > in a your LOGIN.COM (in my system wide startup files on my own system).   D It doesn't matter what the answer is or how easy it is. You said "MyD view of EDT is the pure default...". If you're going to insist we goF with the "pure default" EDT then it is only fair that you judge EVE byB its "pure default ... wihtout the clutter of someone elses ideas",E which SET KEYPAD EDT clearly is. So if you allow SET KEYPAD EDT, then * you should also allow some changes to EDT.  C You might say, "Well, SET KEYPAD EDT is part of EVE" to which I can ) say so are the commands in my setup file.   F The relevant question is "Why should I switch?". You said we should go= the default EDT, so I simply countered about the default EVE.    [...]    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 19:43 CDT' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) ? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? , Message-ID: <7MAR200319434638@gerg.tamu.edu>  + "Dale A. Marcy" <dqm@y12.doe.gov> writes... 5 }"Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message I }> I don't normally use EVE. Or EDT, for that matter. I normally use LSE, K }> but it is very similar to EVE in most respects (as I recall, back when I J }> first tried them out EVE's "EDT" keypad had two differences in behaviorK }> from the real one but LSE's only had one - I no longer remember what the K }> second one was, but the one LSE also has is that you can't have a search G }> patter that includes the end of line since both the "Return", or the I }> equivalent Control-M, and "Enter" keys terminate the pattern and start G }> the search; not so with EDT, it lets you use "Return" (or ^M) in the I }> search string as the pattern entry does not terminate when you hit it,  }> only when you hit Enter). } G }You can search for end of line, but you have to type ^V^M for carriage C }return and/or ^V^J for line feed while entering the search string.  }  }> --- Carl  }--  }Dale A. Marcy  H That lets you enter the <CR> and <LF> characters into the search string,D but I just tried it and it certainly did not work to find the actual5 "line breaks" (i.e. the end of a record) in the file.   ) I fire up LSE, creating a new empty file.    I enter: abcd abcd abcd abcd  : I position the cursor back to the start of the first line. I hit PF1-PF3.1 I enter "d^v^m" to get the search string of d<CR>  I hit Enter.K "Could not find : d<CR>" (except that the <CR> is the single character CR).    Close the file, saving it.   Run EDIT/EDT on the file.  I hit PF1-PF3.5 I enter "d<RETURN>" to get the search string of d<CR>  I hit Enter.M It finds, and advances the cursor to, the "d" at the end of the first record. 
 I hit PF3.L It finds, and advances the cursor to, the "d" at the end of the second line.   This is not the same behavior.  I It might be the case that this works in EVE/LSE if the file is one of the G Stream formats (which actually uses the CR/LF/CRLF to end the records), 9 I havn't tried, but it does not work for a "normal" file.   E EDT is doing something (and a very handy something at that) which you E can't do in EVE or LSE, as far as I have ever seen (without writing a 0 whole new search routine in TPU to run, anyway).   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 10:46:08 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) " Subject: Re: Fibre Channel and SCS= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0303071046.285cbf2e@posting.google.com>   v keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) wrote in message news:<cf15391e.0303061006.501bfdcd@posting.google.com>...) > With 7.3-1 or above, you can adjust the : > relative priorities of MC and Fast Ethernet using SCACP.  C I should have also pointed out here that even if you aren't running D 7.3-1 yet, if you need the ability to change the relative prioritiesF of different types of SCS ports, there are a couple of tools available
 from the CSC.   D PORT_CLASS_SETUP can change the default SCS priorities for ports, so> with it you could set things up to prefer Ethernet over Memory Channel, for example.   B If it is only lock traffic (VMS$VAXcluster SYSAP) that you need toD control, a program called MOVE_REMOTENODE_CONNECTIONS can be used toD move that particular SYSAP's connection with a specified remote nodeD to a specified SCS port (and get around problems like the lack of CI Load Sharing code on Alpha).   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 02:44:47 GMT % From: Milton <mbhewitt@optonline.net> 2 Subject: Re: hp DECforms V3.3 Product Announcement8 Message-ID: <e2mi6v8if5virqam6rpfjv03qc9itlr320@4ax.com>  H On Fri, 7 Mar 2003 18:06:18 +0100, Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> wrote:  5 >"Sue Skonetski" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> wrote:  > H >> HP DECforms for OpenVMS is a software product for the development andI >> deployment of forms-based user interfaces for interactive applications E >> running on OpenVMS systems. DECforms V3.3 is a maintenance release I >> demonstrating the OpenVMS commitment to product quality. DECforms V3.3 H >> is available on the OpenVMS Alpha and VAX Q1  CY2003 software product
 >> libraries.  >>  Q >> DECforms Web Site: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/decforms/index.htm  >>   >> [...] > 9 >According to http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/decforms.html D >the current version of DECforms is V2.2 -- is V3.3 really the next - >version or should that be read as "V2.3" ???   
 According to: = http://h71000.www7.hp.com/commercial/webconnector/1000new.htm $ the current version is DECforms V3.2  E When a search is done for DECforms V3.3 in all of hp US or hp OpenVMS 1 systems -> No results were found for your search.      Cheers,  Milton   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 23:25:05 GMT + From: "lbalders@gte.net" <lbalders@gte.net> " Subject: Re: HSZ monitor from VMS?' Message-ID: <3E6929AB.7A0C0DA9@gte.net>   " Thanks everyone, I'll try HSZterm.  3 And yes, "terminal cabled" is VT and that funny DEC 5 cable with an RJ11-like plug with the offset "tooth".  Very primitive...    "David J. Dachtera" wrote:   > brandon@dalsemi.com wrote: > > J > > > I recently connected an HSZ70 to my Alpha 4100. There are apparently$ > > > three ways to monitor the HSZ:, > > > 1. terminal cabled to HSZ console portM > > > 2. Alpha com port cabled to HSZ console port, access via "set host/dte" 4 > > > 3. Client SWCC software from Windows PC to HSZ > > > > > > > I would like to "talk" to the HSZ from VMS. Like connect< > > > and issue command "show storage full", and have output9 > > > be available for VMS comfile processing. Any ideas?  > > > ! > > > Thank you, lbalders@gte.net  > > E > > When you say terminal cable, do you imply a DECserver attachment?  > H > Well, yeah, obviously that works; but, I'm sure he meant (literally) a> > terminal & cable. A VT and a null-modem wired MMJ-MMJ cable. > Q > > I use a DECserver attached to my HSG80 controllers.  This allows me to telnet P > > to the port of each HSG80 controller and access the console prompt for each. > > # > > I can access my controllers by:  > >  > > $ TELNET DSXYZ 2001 0 > > %TELNET-I-TRYING, Trying ... nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn8 > > %TELNET-I-SESSION, Session 01, host dsxyz, port 2001, > > -TELNET-I-ESCAPE, Escape character is ^] > > dsxyz.1> > > TELNET> exit0 > > %TELNET-S-LCLCLOSED, Local connection closed8 > > -TELNET-I-SESSION, Session 01, host dsxyz, port 2001 > > S > > This does raise security concerns, since anyone can access the ports unless you S > > create a secure environment for your controller access.  The software available P > > in our network switches/hubs allows for only specific IP addresses to access > > the controller ports.  > > I > > You can also acheive this by creating a private access using HW & SW.  > E > ...such as a dedicated LAN segment (not connected to the enterprise  > network(s)). >  > -- > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE SystemsN > http://www.djesys.com/ >e* > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/-   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 19:39:42 -05003 From: "Homer J. Simpson" <hsimpson@burnsenergy.com>m" Subject: Re: HSZ monitor from VMS?7 Message-ID: <kRaaa.701$vb6.137@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com>   J FYI - IIRC, HSZterm needs a license.  You used to be able to just call DECL and get one faxed to you.  Not sure it is supported anymore, so I don't know what that means license-wize.   J Also, not sure you can use /output=filename.txt at a HSZterm> prompt.  You8 would need to capture to a buffer and paste into a file.  J The sure way is to use PowerTerm on a PC, hardwire it to the console port,H set a big capture buffer in PowerTerm, copy and paste reports into a VMS! session (EDT?) where you need it.e  C If you used a PC with 2 comm ports and set the terminal emulator toeH controller mode with a serial generic text only printer setup, you couldK output all console activity out the second comm port, and into a VMS systemu
 comm port.  ) BTW, the HSZ70 doesn't take MMJ, does it?i    E <lbalders@gte.net> wrote in message news:3E6929AB.7A0C0DA9@gte.net...s$ > Thanks everyone, I'll try HSZterm. >L5 > And yes, "terminal cabled" is VT and that funny DECn7 > cable with an RJ11-like plug with the offset "tooth".i > Very primitive...s >a > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >a > > brandon@dalsemi.com wrote: > > >AL > > > > I recently connected an HSZ70 to my Alpha 4100. There are apparently& > > > > three ways to monitor the HSZ:. > > > > 1. terminal cabled to HSZ console portE > > > > 2. Alpha com port cabled to HSZ console port, access via "set 	 host/dte"N6 > > > > 3. Client SWCC software from Windows PC to HSZ > > > >o@ > > > > I would like to "talk" to the HSZ from VMS. Like connect> > > > > and issue command "show storage full", and have output; > > > > be available for VMS comfile processing. Any ideas?: > > > > # > > > > Thank you, lbalders@gte.netT > > >tG > > > When you say terminal cable, do you imply a DECserver attachment?p > > J > > Well, yeah, obviously that works; but, I'm sure he meant (literally) a@ > > terminal & cable. A VT and a null-modem wired MMJ-MMJ cable. > > L > > > I use a DECserver attached to my HSG80 controllers.  This allows me to telnetL > > > to the port of each HSG80 controller and access the console prompt for each.  > > >T% > > > I can access my controllers by:a > > >e > > > $ TELNET DSXYZ 2001m2 > > > %TELNET-I-TRYING, Trying ... nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn: > > > %TELNET-I-SESSION, Session 01, host dsxyz, port 2001. > > > -TELNET-I-ESCAPE, Escape character is ^] > > > dsxyz.1> > > > TELNET> exit2 > > > %TELNET-S-LCLCLOSED, Local connection closed: > > > -TELNET-I-SESSION, Session 01, host dsxyz, port 2001 > > > J > > > This does raise security concerns, since anyone can access the ports
 unless youK > > > create a secure environment for your controller access.  The softwarey	 available K > > > in our network switches/hubs allows for only specific IP addresses tom access > > > the controller ports.o > > >aK > > > You can also acheive this by creating a private access using HW & SW.  > > G > > ...such as a dedicated LAN segment (not connected to the enterpriseo > > network(s)). > >  > > -- > > David J. Dachteram > > dba DJE Systems  > > http://www.djesys.com/ > > , > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:# > > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t >a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:02:11 -0600.1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e" Subject: Re: HSZ monitor from VMS?% Message-ID: <3E695D33.4E54D4@fsi.net>r   "Homer J. Simpson" wrote:l > ' > FYI - IIRC, HSZterm needs a license. f  , May have been true at one time, but no more.  G > Also, not sure you can use /output=filename.txt at a HSZterm> prompt.a   No, but:  " $ SET HOST/LOG=filespec/SCSI ddcu:   Works. t   > You3: > would need to capture to a buffer and paste into a file.  - That can be done if using a terminal program.   L > The sure way is to use PowerTerm on a PC, hardwire it to the console port,J > set a big capture buffer in PowerTerm, copy and paste reports into a VMS# > session (EDT?) where you need it.   H ...or enable logging in the PC term. program of your choice (assuming it; supports such an option) and direct the log to a disk file.m  E > If you used a PC with 2 comm ports and set the terminal emulator to J > controller mode with a serial generic text only printer setup, you couldM > output all console activity out the second comm port, and into a VMS system1 > comm port. > + > BTW, the HSZ70 doesn't take MMJ, does it?f  8 No, It actually has a center-tab, RJ12-style jack, IIRC.   -- A David J. DachteraD dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 12:37:57 -0800n7 From: jones.computer.srv@worldnet.att.net (Daryl Jones)aO Subject: Re: Maximum Record Size Error, -RMS-F-MRS, invalid maximum record size < Message-ID: <8a646952.0303071237.b0122b7@posting.google.com>  * Bill Todd, John Biggs, and Lonnie Blevins:  D I stand corrected on the statement of "This will reduce wasted spaceF inside the RMS bucket." I was wrong. What I meant to say is "This will- reduce wasted space inside the Disk Cluster."S  F Since a Disk Cluster is the smallest unit of disk space allocated to aD file or file structure, one RMS Bucket will be mapped to one or moreF Disk Cluster. Making the RMS bucket an integral number of Disk ClusterA has nothing to do with small extensions of a file! Making the RMS0C bucket an integral number of a Disk Clusters will reduce disk spaceoB being wasted. Let say the RMS Bucket size is 2 blocks and the DiskB Cluster size is 3. That means only 2 out of the 3 blocks of a diskC cluster will only contain data. The other block will be empty.  The E other case is to make the RMS Bucket a size of 5 blocks, then it will$F take two Disk Clusters to hold one RMS bucket leaving one block in the cluster wasted.w  D By making the RMS bucket size be 3,6,9, etc (integral number of DiskF Cluster size), the RMS bucket will fit into one or more disk clusters.C There is one problem, making a RMS bucket size larger than one diskv: cluster size could cause the bucket to be stored on a diskF non-sequential, thus causing a Split I/O for the retrieval for one RMSE Bucket. This caused by the ISAM file being externally fragmented overr? the disk.  This is not the same as a RMS Bucket Split, which is.F internal fragmentation, which will cause multiple I/O requests for one RMS Bucket.   B No a RMS Bucket size doesn't have to be an integral number of DiskC Cluster size. Making the RMS Bucket size be integral number of Disk D Cluster size is a good design feature. How large a RMS bucket has toB do with fill factor and record size, record compression, and other? file design parameters that are dealt with by EDIT/FDL routine.a  D One I/O buffer equals one RMS Bucket. Therefore, you can only adjustC the number of buffers for an Index or Relative file and not the I/OMF buffer size. The I/O buffer size is the size of the largest RMS Bucket
 for the file.e  
 Daryl Jones           -          | jones.computer.srv@worldnet.att.net (Daryl Jones) wrote in message news:<8a646952.0303061118.7db7bd00@posting.google.com>...i > dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) wrote in message news:<1ca82fc6.0303052316.419da2a@posting.google.com>...sp > > del.duncan@intel.com (Del Duncan) wrote in message news:<98342c9f.0303051553.7c5e2e9c@posting.google.com>...H > > > I'm trying to use an FDL to create and convert files but I get theK > > > above error, even when creating a simple test file.    I'm attempting J > > > to create the files as Indexed, variable-length records, record size > > > 25042. > > > F > > > In debugging this, I find that if I set the FILE-ORGANIZATION toJ > > > SEQUENTIAL, it then works, but if I set it to INDEXED, it fails.   IL > > > did some experimentation and found that I could get it to create a newE > > > file at 6500 but not at 7500.    The "OpenVMS Record ManagementaJ > > > Utilities Reference Manual" states that Indexed files can have appr. > > > 32K records. > > > 7 > > I've just tried it and a record size of 16384 worksr: > > while a size of 32768 fails. (on alpha OpenVMS V7.2-1)& > > ...many versions of test.fdl later+ > > it seems that the cutoff point is 322323/ > > are your rms sysgen parameters different to@ > > SYSGEN>  SHOW RMS  :R > > Parameter Name         Current    Default     Min.      Max.     Unit  DynamicR > > --------------         -------    -------    -------   -------   ----  -------P > > RMS_DFMBC                    16         16         1        127 Blocks     DP > > RMS_DFMBFSDK                  0          0         0        127 Blocks     DP > > RMS_DFMBFSMT                  0          0         0        127 Blocks     DP > > RMS_DFMBFSUR                  0          0         0        127 Buffers    DP > > RMS_DFMBFREL                  0          0         0        127 Buffers    DP > > RMS_DFMBFIDX                  0          0         0        127 Buffers    DP > > RMS_DFMBFHSH                  0          0         0        127 Buffers    DP > > RMS_PROLOGUE                  0          0         0          3 Prolog-Lvl DP > > RMS_EXTEND_SIZE               0          0         0      65535 Blocks     DO > > RMS_FILEPROT              64000      64000         0      65535 Prot-mask   P > > RMS_DFNBC                     8          8         1        127 Blocks     DP > > RMS_DFLRL                     0          0         0      32767 Bytes      DP > > RMS_HEURISTIC                 0          0         0          1 Boolean    DP > > RMS_VCC_DFW                   0          0         0          1 Boolean    DP > > RMSD1                         0          0         0          1            D
 > > SYSGEN>  t > >  > > Phil >  > Everyone,n > = > The maximun record size in a RMS file is as follows (1991):t > ? > Sequential (Fix or VAR): 32,767 bytes or 64 blocks of 512 - 1 H >                   (VFC): 32,767 - FSZ where FSZ is fixed control field3 >                               size of VFC recordss& >       Sequential (Tape): 9,995 bytes > ' >          Relative (Fix): 32,225 bytesd' >                   (VAR): 32,253 bytes,H >                   (VFC): 32,253 - FSZ bytes where FSZ is fixed control > fieldr3 >                               size of VFC recordsh' >    Indexed (Fix or VAR): 32,224 bytest > H > When converting ISAM files use the FDL Analyze tool to create your FDLD > file for tuning the ISAM file. If you are just defragging the fileD > ISAM file then convert the file directly. One thing to remember isH > that the bucket size must be an intergral number of disk cluster size.E > This will reduce wasted space inside the RMS bucket. One more item, C > the bucket size can't be less than the longest record size in thetB > file. You can force the the bucket to be less by hard coding theG > value, however, FDL utility will error out otherwise. RMS at run-time-& > will error out on this kind of file. > 
 > Daryl Jonest   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 01:02:23 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>O Subject: Re: Maximum Record Size Error, -RMS-F-MRS, invalid maximum record size 4 Message-ID: <1030308005122.943A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ! On 7 Mar 2003, Daryl Jones wrote:t  , > Bill Todd, John Biggs, and Lonnie Blevins: > F > I stand corrected on the statement of "This will reduce wasted spaceH > inside the RMS bucket." I was wrong. What I meant to say is "This will/ > reduce wasted space inside the Disk Cluster."  > H > Since a Disk Cluster is the smallest unit of disk space allocated to aF > file or file structure, one RMS Bucket will be mapped to one or moreH > Disk Cluster. Making the RMS bucket an integral number of Disk ClusterC > has nothing to do with small extensions of a file! Making the RMSiE > bucket an integral number of a Disk Clusters will reduce disk spaceuD > being wasted. Let say the RMS Bucket size is 2 blocks and the DiskD > Cluster size is 3. That means only 2 out of the 3 blocks of a diskE > cluster will only contain data. The other block will be empty.  The G > other case is to make the RMS Bucket a size of 5 blocks, then it will H > take two Disk Clusters to hold one RMS bucket leaving one block in the > cluster wasted.n  C This is not true.  The "wasted" block will contain the 1st block ofaE the next cluster.  Want proof?  Try copying an indexed file to a diskrH with a different clustersize.  Block-for-block copy produces a perfectlyI good indexed file.  It doesn't grow (except for possible newclustersize-1hE blocks at the end to round up to the next cluster boundary) or changei! the bucket size when you copy it.n  F > By making the RMS bucket size be 3,6,9, etc (integral number of DiskH > Cluster size), the RMS bucket will fit into one or more disk clusters.E > There is one problem, making a RMS bucket size larger than one diski< > cluster size could cause the bucket to be stored on a diskH > non-sequential, thus causing a Split I/O for the retrieval for one RMSG > Bucket. This caused by the ISAM file being externally fragmented oversA > the disk.  This is not the same as a RMS Bucket Split, which is H > internal fragmentation, which will cause multiple I/O requests for one
 > RMS Bucket.f  ? This is true, and is why EDIT/FDL tries to make the bucket sizes@ not relatively prime with the clustersize.  (There will still beD seeks in the middle of a bucket at the end of a track, or if there's a BBR.)    > D > No a RMS Bucket size doesn't have to be an integral number of DiskE > Cluster size. Making the RMS Bucket size be integral number of Disk F > Cluster size is a good design feature. How large a RMS bucket has toD > do with fill factor and record size, record compression, and otherA > file design parameters that are dealt with by EDIT/FDL routine.  > F > One I/O buffer equals one RMS Bucket. Therefore, you can only adjustE > the number of buffers for an Index or Relative file and not the I/OoH > buffer size. The I/O buffer size is the size of the largest RMS Bucket > for the file.  >  > Daryl Jones  h   -- t John Santosu Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:42:07 -0600k1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>OJ Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)' Message-ID: <3E69587F.FEEE3DB3@fsi.net>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3E680D35.8E7C0041@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:s > > Dave Gabele wrote: > >> [snip]CJ > >> Has anyone else experienced this or other issues moving from Multinet > >> to TCP/IP Services? > > 6 > > IMO, moving away from Multinet is not recommended. > > % > > A good example of why is like so:p > > K > > If you have system running Mutlinet and another running UCX (nka TCP/IPnE > > Services for OpenVMS), install the VERB freeware and see how manyD' > > commands Multinet installs vs. UCX.i > I > You seem to assume that everyone will analyze the results with the sameeE > value judgements. I think you should be more explicit in your post.l   I was. You snipped that part:    "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > [snip]I > I did a comparison of this last year. If I can find the e-mail at work,aA > I'll forward it to myself at home and post the good parts here.p  @ Look for a reply to myself for the actual text of the message...   --   David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:50:18 -0600s1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>.J Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)' Message-ID: <3E695A6A.FDE8B11F@fsi.net>t   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > [snip]I > I did a comparison of this last year. If I can find the e-mail at work,eA > I'll forward it to myself at home and post the good parts here.-   O.k. Here's the text...2  - > ... here is a brief list of shortcomings inuK > "TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS", hereinafter referred to by its former (andlK > shorter) name, "UCX". Multinet still gets my vote - UCX has a *LONG*(!!!)s2 > way to go to reach feature parity with Multinet. > I > For starters, a simple search of the command tables shows that MultinettJ > provides some twenty-one(21) separate DCL verbs, while UCX provides only > thirteen(13).- > E > UCX does not provide spooled devices. Standard practice through and L > including UCX V4 was to start up LAT and create LAT devices which are thenK > spooled through the UCX$TELNETSYM or UCX$LPD_SMB symbiont queues in orderVI > to provide targets for those applications which must print to a device.dS > (Remember: The system on which (an application) runs is probably not dedicated touI > a single application, due to the nature of the industry and the need toh* > contain costs by consolidating systems.) > I > For print queues where the target receives data via the "LPD" protocol,-7 > UCX does not provide a device as can be created usingnJ > TELNET/CREATE_SESSION. So, the LAT strategy must still be used for those1 > situations where applications ... would need to / > target a device in order to be able to print.w > + > Multinet provides for SSH - UCX does not.e > 1 > Multinet provides a WHOIS client. UCX does not.  > J > UCX still uses dynamic route discovery, which can lead to hung sessions,L > data loss and denial of access. Multinet uses static routes which are more) > reliable and less management intensive.t > : > Multinet provides NFS in the base product. UCX does not. > : > Multinet provides NTP in the base product. UCX does not. > ; > Multinet provides TFTP in the base product. UCX does not.  > D > Multinet provides a TALK client in the base product. UCX does not. > I > Multinet provides Remote Magtape functionality in the base product. UCXi > does not.r > L > Multinet provides RSHELL and RUSERS in the base product in addition to RPC/ > and RLOGIN. UCX provides only RPC and RLOGIN.a > J > MULTINET SHOW/CONNECTIONS/SNMP allows the display of active listeners on9 > an SNMP-enabled station. UCX does not provide for SNMP.n > H > Additionally, the UCX management interface is a joke - and has changedJ > little since V3. Multinet's is better, though it also leaves one wanting/ > for a better way to manage certain functions.  > H > Note also that additional licenses may be required to activate certain+ > features that are included with Multinet.m > ) > Sorry, but Multinet still gets my vote.  > < > Again, I would recommend that *ALL* applications ... be asJ > "stack-neutral" as possible with regard to TCP/IP. An application shouldJ > not need to care whether the underlying IP stack is TCPware, Multinet orL > UCX. If it does, you're probably doing something that could be done betterG > and more reliably in a transparent way which requires less managementg	 > effort.n > 5 > Which of the above features are important to *US*?   > K > *ALL* of them! When you need it, you got it. There's nothing like needingoK > something and finding your hands tied to make you appreciate the benefits H > of a rich feature set! After all, that's why we're on VMS in the first > place!  B That's the important part. I snipped the rest and censored some to protect the not-so-innocent.   --   David J. Dachteral dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 22:33:46 -0600o- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)uJ Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)3 Message-ID: <re5ibSBde02s@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  [ In article <3E69587F.FEEE3DB3@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:u > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >>  ^ >> In article <3E680D35.8E7C0041@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: >> > Dave Gabele wrote:  >> >> [snip]K >> >> Has anyone else experienced this or other issues moving from Multinetf >> >> to TCP/IP Services?  >> >7 >> > IMO, moving away from Multinet is not recommended.  >> >& >> > A good example of why is like so: >> >L >> > If you have system running Mutlinet and another running UCX (nka TCP/IPF >> > Services for OpenVMS), install the VERB freeware and see how many( >> > commands Multinet installs vs. UCX. >>  J >> You seem to assume that everyone will analyze the results with the sameF >> value judgements. I think you should be more explicit in your post. >  > I was. You snipped that part:h >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote:	 >> [snip]iJ >> I did a comparison of this last year. If I can find the e-mail at work,B >> I'll forward it to myself at home and post the good parts here.  E You still haven't explicitly stated your value judgements.  Pick one:6  # 	A. More installed commands is good $ 	B. Fewer installed commands is good   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 22:36:08 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) J Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)3 Message-ID: <YUNpou0OQSxj@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3E695A6A.FDE8B11F@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:4  . >> ... here is a brief list of shortcomings inL >> "TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS", hereinafter referred to by its former (andL >> shorter) name, "UCX". Multinet still gets my vote - UCX has a *LONG*(!!!)3 >> way to go to reach feature parity with Multinet.t >>  J >> For starters, a simple search of the command tables shows that MultinetK >> provides some twenty-one(21) separate DCL verbs, while UCX provides onlye >> thirteen(13).  F I don't think the number of commands is relevant in such a comparison.  ( >> UCX does not provide spooled devices.  D Not providing features is different.  But commands like START, STOP,E CONFIGURE, etc. might apply to a large or a small number of features.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 13:54:49 -0400r0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>3 Subject: Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlayingo/ Message-ID: <3E68DCDA.4D37C041@vl.videotron.ca>t   Jerry Alan Braga wrote:eH > 1. Scan the image and save on our VMS server as a binary image format., > 2. Create a text file via our applicationsL > 3. Merge these two objects and print to the laser printer where every pageB > of the text file would overlay exactly on the scanning document.  I Your printer will require plenty of memory if you intend to use a scannedtM image as a form. If you have the original freehand/illustrator documents that G draw the form you could get something of higher quality and much faster - printing and/or with less memory requirement.a   There are 2 ways to do this:  K With each page, you start off by downloading the image data followed by thegM postscript that generates the text for that page. This means that if you havem1 100 pages, you download the same image 100 times.s  N The second method is to download the image once in the prologue, read the dataL once into a giant array, and then have a small piece of postscript code that9 acts as a routine that "draws" that image from the array.d  I Then, at every page, you have code that calls that "form" which draws theaG background, followed by the postcript that draws the text. This has the L advantage of a MUCH smaller file sent to the printer (image sent only once),K and only one rasterisation of the image done (due to the "forms" capability(P which stores the "Form" in an internal bitmap format after it was first called).      J For the second option, it is possible to write postscript "prologue" whichN does what you want. The prologue sets up the form, and then exexutes a routineH which reads plain text from the postscript equivalent of "sys$input" andM processed the text to place it on a page and then whenever a page is full (ornM form feed encountered), it will eject that page, and begin a new one with ther "Form" placed on it.    K I do not beleive that DCPS actually has the ability to insert your own codesH between pages, but perhaps Paul Anderson can jump in and prove me wrong.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 13:34:37 -0600s From: briggs@encompasserve.org3 Subject: Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlayingt3 Message-ID: <XHuR7qXTrKWj@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  b In article <070320031422200894%paul.anderson@hp.com>, Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com> writes:: > In article <3E68DCDA.4D37C041@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei* > <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote: > E >> I do not beleive that DCPS actually has the ability to insert yourfD >> own code between pages, but perhaps Paul Anderson can jump in and >> prove me wrong. > C > There's no DCPS feature to do this.  As has been pointed out, theuD > original poster will need to roll his own PostScript to do what he* > wants, or purchase a commercial product.   There is the tantalizing hint:  ) (Module LPS$$NEWSHEET in DCPS$DEVCTL.TLB)h2 % Copyright ) DEC 1990 - 1996 All rights reserved. % Version V1.1G statusdict/newsheet known{save statusdict begin newsheet end restore}if   @ It looks to me as if you can define "newsheet" in statusdict and3 get your code automatically executed once per page.a   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 19:22:21 GMT * From: Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com>3 Subject: Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlayinga5 Message-ID: <070320031422200894%paul.anderson@hp.com>I  8 In article <3E68DCDA.4D37C041@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei( <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:  D > I do not beleive that DCPS actually has the ability to insert yourC > own code between pages, but perhaps Paul Anderson can jump in ando > prove me wrong.a  A There's no DCPS feature to do this.  As has been pointed out, theeB original poster will need to roll his own PostScript to do what he( wants, or purchase a commercial product.   JetForm is now owned by Adobe-  9    <http://www.planetpdf.com/mainpage.asp?WebPageID=1878>s  8 and I don't know what's happened to the JetForm product.   Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineeringr   Hewlett-Packard Company>   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 20:16 CDT' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) 3 Subject: Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlayings, Message-ID: <7MAR200320163047@gerg.tamu.edu>  . Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com> writes...9 }In article <3E68DCDA.4D37C041@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei ) }<jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:l } E }> I do not beleive that DCPS actually has the ability to insert yourcD }> own code between pages, but perhaps Paul Anderson can jump in and }> prove me wrong. } B }There's no DCPS feature to do this.  As has been pointed out, theC }original poster will need to roll his own PostScript to do what he") }wants, or purchase a commercial product.t }  }JetForm is now owned by Adobe } : }   <http://www.planetpdf.com/mainpage.asp?WebPageID=1878> } 9 }and I don't know what's happened to the JetForm product.s }  }Paulc  C There is an example of how to do this (this = redefine the showpage   to do this) installed with DCPS.   See DCPS$LAYUP:CONFIDENTIAL.PS.d  C You use the example by inserting it into the device control libraryh& (SYS$LIBRARY:DCPS$DEVCTL.TLB) and then$ $ PRINT/SETUP=CONFIDENTIAL some.file  E Not exactly the most extensive of examples, but it could be helpfull.o   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:31:43 -0600h1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> . Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)& Message-ID: <3E69560F.85AB101@fsi.net>   Keith Parris wrote:- > a > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E680A69.613C559@fsi.net>...sF > > I am seriously considering offering a $1,000(US) cash reward for aL > > verifiable citation of a publication name, date and page number where an6 > > OpenVMS ad appeared anytime in the last 18 months. > D > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ad/ shows 3 ads (they're forD > Alphaservers, but include OpenVMS along with Tru64 in the ad text)* > which have appeared in Fortune magazine.   Dates and page numbers please?   -- y David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsf http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/T   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:37:59 -0600e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>,. Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)' Message-ID: <3E695787.92160CEF@fsi.net>t   Keith Parris wrote:O > a > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E680A69.613C559@fsi.net>...tF > > I am seriously considering offering a $1,000(US) cash reward for aL > > verifiable citation of a publication name, date and page number where an6 > > OpenVMS ad appeared anytime in the last 18 months. > D > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ad/ shows 3 ads (they're forD > Alphaservers, but include OpenVMS along with Tru64 in the ad text)* > which have appeared in Fortune magazine.  F Is there anyway to get the .PDFs without having to display them first?   --   David J. DachteraS dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------   Date: 7 MAR 2003 18:32:38 GMTe4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)- Subject: OpenVMS SSHv2 EAK and X11 forwardingn5 Message-ID: <7MAR03.18323841@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>   : Anyone have X11 forwarding working with OpenVMS SSHv2 EAK?  @ While I do this routinely with Teraterm/TTssh and the Ohio StateE SSH_SERVER, I've not been successful with the SSHv2 EAK and Vandyke'sr@ SecureCRT client. I enable X11 forwarding in SecureCRT, login to0 VMS, start eXcursion on the PC then back on VMS:   $ SHOW DISPLAY3 %DECW-W-OPENIN, error opening DECW$DISPLAY as input - -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device availablec $s3 $ SET DISPLAY/CREATE/TRANSPORT=TCPIP/NODE=LOCALHOST  $ SHOW DISPLAY     Device:    WSA11:  [super]     Node:      LOCALHOST     Transport: TCPIP     Server:    0     Screen:    0 $ MC DECW$PUZZLE' XIO:  unable to open connection _WSA11:tC       after 0 requests (0 known processed) with 0 events remaining.9# X Toolkit Error: Can't Open displayr% %DWT-F-NOMSG, Message number 03AB8204"  9 The error line in sys$manager:Decw$server_0_error.log is:   : 7-MAR-2003 12:25:55.1 Invalid access from transport: TCPIP?                                                 node: LOCALHOSTc7                                                 user: ?   3 There is no access control configured on eXcursion.   I I remember the OSU SSH_SERVER did some magic to setup the display for yout) using server number 1. What am I missing?n   --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison 5 --              karcher.nomorespam@waisman.wisc.edu      ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 00:11:15 +0000 (UTC). From: timwa@stamford.snowgoons.com (Tim Walls)Y Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retai . Message-ID: <b4bcf3$sa0$1@kafka.snowgoons.com>  8 In article <mqnh6vsel43b1vpf9usq1g05nhpc4oc2kb@4ax.com>,) 	jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> writes: G > On Fri, 07 Mar 2003 17:07:14 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancye0 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: > E > Typical Andrew useless response.  Still saying that I have to proveyB > that the GS160s perform well on some apps, while he still hasn'tH > proven his contention that it won't perform well for any apps.  What a > crock.  E No offence, but I speak as an independent observer who's been lurking E in this group for quite a while...  And I'm afraid, you just lost thes	 argument.s  A Jesus, what is it with you guys?  (That is, HP+Cpaq et al.)  As aeB customer, I'd kinda expect you to jump at the chance to prove yourI product performs well.  This whole "if you don't think our stuff is greatoH it's obviously because you're ignorant - go on, prove me wrong" attitudeE is just one reason why I won't be spending my company's money on yourrE kit.  Which is a crying shame, because I have a great deal of respect(+ for DEC and the engineers who produced VMS.)  D I find it depressing because I think competition is a good thing forH development.  But you aren't competing - you're clinging on to a rapidlyI shrinking customer base while trying to pretend it doesn't matter because0I the people on 'your' side are somehow better, and so more important, thanjF everyone else on 'their' side.  But eventually everyone on 'your' side3 is going to be dead, and by then it'll be too late.s   <Sigh>   Regards,G Tim.  (A lurker, who lurks because he respects VMS - but has no respectn*        at all for its vendor right now...)   -- eI Tim Walls at home in Croydon     -     Reply to tim@snowgoons.fsnet.co.uk   =                 Too old to rock and roll, too young to die...    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:29:08 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>cY Subject: RE: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha RetaitT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660E05@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Tim,  5 <<< .  And I'm afraid, you just lost the argument.<<<   F If you have been lurking for awhile, then you know that no matter whatC evidence HP puts up, Andrew is going to counter with his own fud tosB counter it. That's fine - he's a competitor and that is his way of( promoting his own companies products.=20  @ Case in point - he asks where are some performance numbers. Ok -J http://www.sap.com/benchmark/index.asp?content=3Dhttp://www.sap.com/bench= m  ark/sd2tier.asp.  H Sun - 1,789,000 dialog steps per hr - 72 cpu Sunfire 15K Oracle 9i - Feb 10, 2003B HP - 1,393,000 dialog steps per hr - 32 cpu GS1280 Oracle 9i - Jan 27/2003d  H Given Oracle charges per cpu, I'd say the GS1280 does ok. Note the datesG of release. Sun felt they needed to have a bigger number, but needed 72s CPUs to get that bigger number.o  C And even his age old argument about the GS320 - still on the top 10 F single system TPC, while Sun has 0 entries on the TPC list. Reference:J http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results.asp?resulttype=3Dnonclu= se ter&version=3D5   E Now, Andrew will respond with but, but, but .. And so it continues...    Regardse    
 Kerry Main Senior Consultants Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Services- Voice: 613-592-4660a Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)  OpenVMS DCL - the original .COMt   -----Original Message-----8 From: Tim Walls [mailto:timwa@stamford.snowgoons.com]=20 Sent: March 7, 2003 7:11 PMN To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComEC Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release fori Marveland Alpha Retain Trust    8 In article <mqnh6vsel43b1vpf9usq1g05nhpc4oc2kb@4ax.com>,) 	jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> writes:OJ > On Fri, 07 Mar 2003 17:07:14 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy=200 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: >=20H > Typical Andrew useless response.  Still saying that I have to prove=20E > that the GS160s perform well on some apps, while he still hasn't=20 H > proven his contention that it won't perform well for any apps.  What a   > crock.  H No offence, but I speak as an independent observer who's been lurking inB this group for quite a while...  And I'm afraid, you just lost the	 argument.e  A Jesus, what is it with you guys?  (That is, HP+Cpaq et al.)  As a B customer, I'd kinda expect you to jump at the chance to prove yourC product performs well.  This whole "if you don't think our stuff iswE great it's obviously because you're ignorant - go on, prove me wrong" F attitude is just one reason why I won't be spending my company's moneyE on your kit.  Which is a crying shame, because I have a great deal of.3 respect for DEC and the engineers who produced VMS.   D I find it depressing because I think competition is a good thing forH development.  But you aren't competing - you're clinging on to a rapidlyA shrinking customer base while trying to pretend it doesn't matter A because the people on 'your' side are somehow better, and so more G important, than everyone else on 'their' side.  But eventually everyoneuB on 'your' side is going to be dead, and by then it'll be too late.   <Sigh>   Regards,G Tim.  (A lurker, who lurks because he respects VMS - but has no respectw*        at all for its vendor right now...)   --=20t/ Tim Walls at home in Croydon     -     Reply tos tim@snowgoons.fsnet.co.uk   =                 Too old to rock and roll, too young to die...a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 10:55:39 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>: Subject: RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants0 Message-ID: <01C2E498.18284750@sulfer.icius.com>   Bill Todd wrote: <snip>J >If you saw Nightline last night, you got a chilling view of where Dubya'sM >Imperial America thinks it is heading.  We know what's best for your countrylK >and the world and will do whatever we think is necessary to make it happen-H >(all of course from the best of motives), because we're America and you" >can't do a damn thing to stop us.  G If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be about. H America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wish moreC average Americans traveled and actually lived in other places for aeE while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them more respect fornF other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how much ofA what they think of as basic truths are actually American culturalpH opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I've had overA here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent among thebG American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now, afterk  the attacks, it's getting worse.   Shanea   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:39:24 +0100t6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants) Message-ID: <3E68F56C.7090905@vajhoej.dk>t   Rob Young wrote:= > 	Bill,  I respectfully disagree.  We had very similar nastyaG > 	exchanges here in cov leading up to the Afghanistan bombing/invasions= > 	to chase Al Qaeda.  Much of your fears never materialized.t  5 Out of curiosity: how can you be sure that about thatf9 considering that the war in afghanistan is not over yet ?a   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 13:10:32 -0600c+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)h: Subject: RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <iBagDRBn3GHw@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  W In article <01C2E498.18284750@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:m >  > Bill Todd wrote: > <snip>K >>If you saw Nightline last night, you got a chilling view of where Dubya'sbN >>Imperial America thinks it is heading.  We know what's best for your countryL >>and the world and will do whatever we think is necessary to make it happenI >>(all of course from the best of motives), because we're America and youh# >>can't do a damn thing to stop us.e > I > If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be about.rJ > America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wish moreE > average Americans traveled and actually lived in other places for aaG > while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them more respect foroH > other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how much ofC > what they think of as basic truths are actually American cultural.J > opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I've had overC > here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent among thewI > American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now, after " > the attacks, it's getting worse. >    	Sigh.  Big big sigh.    	So vacuous and content free.e  @ 	Let me add my two cents.  I've been to cultures where attitudesC 	and opinions differ.  They too are close-minded in their approach.n@ 	We also know of other cultures that are notoriously xenophobic.H 	So much so, that if you are caught proselytizing or practicing certain  	religions you are arrested.  , 	How's that for a good vacuous counterpoint?  = 	The difference is of course my examples are easy to trot outm> 	and defend.  Your's in contrast aren't.  Or you would give us? 	examples other than some vacuous content free posting.  Right?    				Robc   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 14:12:28 -0600O+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)f: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <agQ$Jf59U2fX@eisner.encompasserve.org>G  b In article <3E68F56C.7090905@vajhoej.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: > Rob Young wrote:> >> 	Bill,  I respectfully disagree.  We had very similar nastyH >> 	exchanges here in cov leading up to the Afghanistan bombing/invasion> >> 	to chase Al Qaeda.  Much of your fears never materialized. > 7 > Out of curiosity: how can you be sure that about that ; > considering that the war in afghanistan is not over yet ?R >   C 	Am I sure?  Of course not.  Highly unlikely not to amount to much?F  ? 	Well... similarly Bosnia was in a state of anarchy/chaos a few E 	years back and anyone that has read about the history of Afghanistan D 	knows it is a tribal society ravaged by war over the centuries.  IfE 	you were to look at the top 5 unstable/volatile nations in the world0? 	over the years, Afghanistan has to make everyone's top 5 list.   @ 	That said, women in Afghanistan are a lot better off today then; 	they were 2 short years ago when we saw scenes of bizarre  A 	behaviour from the fundamentalist regime (Taliban) that had been  	in charge.   A 	But what if Afghanistan decends into chaos and the tribes decide69 	to rout the American troops and make it their mission to ? 	destroy the infidels?  I would say we would pull out and leave F 	them to their own devices.  Al Qaeda (or son of Al Qaeda) comes back,B 	we do it again , and again and again.  Stand off weapons and thenF 	drop in cleanup troops.  The face of warfare has changed dramatically> 	in the last 20 years in case you haven't noticed.  And no wayF 	we would hang around and let them have fun with a guerrilla campaign.   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:44:41 +0100o6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants) Message-ID: <3E6904B9.8030900@vajhoej.dk>    Rob Young wrote:C > 	But what if Afghanistan decends into chaos and the tribes decide ; > 	to rout the American troops and make it their mission to,A > 	destroy the infidels?  I would say we would pull out and leaveoH > 	them to their own devices.  Al Qaeda (or son of Al Qaeda) comes back,D > 	we do it again , and again and again.  Stand off weapons and thenH > 	drop in cleanup troops.  The face of warfare has changed dramatically@ > 	in the last 20 years in case you haven't noticed.  And no wayH > 	we would hang around and let them have fun with a guerrilla campaign.    > US and allied troop entered afghanistan  more than a year ago.  ) They are still engaged in heavy figthing.l  = So guess we are hanging around and letting them have fun witho a guerilla campaign !    Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:07:48 GMT:L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants6 Message-ID: <00A1C833.0418A9CA@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  g In article <d7791aa1.0303070558.45d7242@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:et >"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:<kyT9a.61073$em1.29195@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...8 >> "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message/ >> news:nH-dnQ7FXKL4T_qjXTWcog@metrocast.net...  >> a
 >> Well said.e >> iI >> There are some smaller percentage of the populace that will oppose war G >> under any circumstance, but by and large the majority will be of theo >> opinion:l >> n- >> War if necessary, but not necessarily war.n >> lH >> And the majority of world opinion, and dare I say US opinion, is that= >> war is not called for, nor is it justifiable at this time.i >.> >not called for ... Iraq was probably behind both the OK. city? >and NY attacks, are now working to arm terrorists with poisons = >and nuclear suitcases, and you say sit on our butts and wait 8 >to be nuked?  We don't need the UN to weigh in when our= >natioanl security is at stake ... glad you aren't president!"  J I never heard the claim that Iraq was behind the Oklahoma City attack, norJ for that matter that the Oklahoma City attack _needed_ anyone to be behindF it.  Is Saddam supposed to have smuggled McVeigh the ingredients for a> fertilizer bomb?  Loaned him the deposit for the rental truck?  M I'm not, here, expressing any opinion on the apparently-forthcoming war.  I'mt: just expressing curiousity (and doubt) about Bob's claims.   -- Alan   O ===============================================================================h0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025kO ===============================================================================T   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 16:13:18 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <FI6cnVmnQJzslvSjXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:agQ$Jf59U2fX@eisner.encompasserve.org...f   ...s  6   women in Afghanistan are a lot better off today then > they were 2 short years ago   I That's nice, but it's not why we went there (though, as with Iraq, it waseK one of the extra added attractions that Dubya threw into the pot to justifyl the invasion).    when we saw scenes of bizarreB > behaviour from the fundamentalist regime (Taliban) that had been > in charge.  L And that we helped put there.  Sure, it wasn't intentional, but it *was* theK result first of our alliance to oust the Soviets and then of our subsequente# abandonment once that job was done.a   > , > But what if Afghanistan decends into chaos  I If it does, it will be because we've abandoned the promises we made there9J yet again - which, given Dubya's attitude about how to cut expenses abroadH (except when there's a war he wants to fight) seems increasingly likely.   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 16:21:18 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <GAqdnbmTAvDPkPSjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:QzdDeXoPYU3D@eisner.encompasserve.org...C@ > In article <k5KcnfgRYbyzkfWjXTWcqg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >  >  > >kE > > If you saw Nightline last night, you got a chilling view of wheren Dubya'saH > > Imperial America thinks it is heading.  We know what's best for your country G > > and the world and will do whatever we think is necessary to make itr happenK > > (all of course from the best of motives), because we're America and youb% > > can't do a damn thing to stop us.. > >s >p< > Bill,  I respectfully disagree.  We had very similar nastyF > exchanges here in cov leading up to the Afghanistan bombing/invasion< > to chase Al Qaeda.  Much of your fears never materialized.  J Statements to the effect that we'd roll right over Pakistan if they didn'tJ give us transit approval were still bad enough, I'd say.  Though my memoryJ is rusty and that may have come from a very recently retired rather than aF current military official.  And our failure to follow through (for theF second time) in supporting the government we installed there is hardlyK laudable - not to mention the bullying tone that Dubya took even before the1I invasion ("You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" is stillo costing us friends today).  D So enough of my fears materialized, and are still characterizing theI Administration today, that the rest of world seems to agree that Dubya isiI more of a threat to world peace and security than Saddam Hussein is (eveneG 45% of the *British* population thinks so, according to a recent poll).v  L IIRC the nastiest of the exchanges involved suggestions that nuclear weaponsL had every right to be used in Afghanistan.  That, of course, did not come to: pass, but even the suggestion of it was *way* out of line.   >p@ > This campaign will be much larger (if and when it happens) and> > could be argued from many corners that it is very necessary.  E Please list any countries whose populations favor action without U.N. J support.  I don't know of any in Europe, or Africa, or Asia, but I haven'tI seen polls for *all* of them or for Latin America or Mexico (the U.S. ande Canada certainly don't).   >n@ > Bosnia was very necessary as that situation had descended into > chaos.  E Was anyone arguing otherwise?  I certainly wasn't.  But the relevances escapes me.   <   Today there is still thousands of American troops there toD > maintain peace.  Post WWII there were thousands of American troops* > occupying and rebuilding post war Japan.  J Ah, but those troops were emplaced and commitments were made by PresidentsI willing to keep their promises in such regards.  The only example we havee? for Dubya is Afghanistan, and that's not nearly as encouraging.t   ...o  > > To suggest there is some sort of hidden Imperialist American$ > agenda, isn't born out by history.  J We're not talking about history, we're talking about the cabal establishedK in 1997 to establish direction for Republican policy in Iraq and elsewhere..K I wish I had seen the entire Nightline program two nights ago, but the part. I did see was chilling enough.     Our methods are to establish > democratic societies  D Whether that's laudable or criminal depends on the *methods* we use:' encouragement is fine, coercion is not.a   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:40:28 GMTs% From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net>G: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Message-ID: <3E69119D.ECEED45@pacbell.net>   Bill Todd wrote: <snip> > March 6, 2003X >  > Dear : > A > I'm fed up with having my intelligence insulted every time someoI > Administration sock-puppet parrots its "Everybody's out of step but me"sL > defense of a war with Iraq.  Others aren't to blame for the 'divisions' inG > the U.N. Security Council and around the world:  the only division is K > between us (and the few governments we've been able to convince to ignoreeJ > the desires of their own people) and the rest of the world, and the onlyN > entity that will be 'marginalized' if we continue to go it alone will be our > own country. > N > It is only the tact of those who would still like to consider themselves ourF > friends that keeps them from pointing out that the U.S. has no rightB > whatsoever to define unilaterally the intent of Security CouncilM > resolutions, no right whatsoever to decide unilaterally the degree to which!J > they are being complied with, and no right whatsoever to take unilateralN > action based on that decision:  all those rights belong only to the SecurityM > Council itself, and provide not a fig-leaf of justification for independenteN > action by its members.  In the absence of U.N. approval ours will be no lessN > a war of aggression than the annexation of Kuwait was a dozen years ago, andJ > appears to be accompanied by similar lies in attempts to rationalize it. > I > Our own intelligence agencies indicate that to the best of their rathergJ > considerable knowledge Iraq presents no immediate threat to us or to itsN > neighbors and had no hand in the 9/11/2001 (or any other) terrorist attacks.I > Its abuse of its own population - including the gassing of the Kurds indI > 1988, about which we remained conspicuously silent at the time - was nolL > secret back when Iraq was a valued Reagan/Bush ally against Iran.  Mostly,H > Iraq is an embarrassing testament to our own failure to follow throughN > thoroughly in the aftermath of the Gulf War:  instead, after its forces wereM > routed from Kuwait we let Iraq largely drop off our radar screen, demanding E > the mindless continuation of sanctions even after they proved to benJ > counter-productive instead of buckling down and figuring out how to deal* > with the remaining problems effectively. > N > It's not Saddam Hussein who has made us and the international community lookJ > like fools, it's our own failure to provide competent leadership in thisG > matter to the international organization which we (usually) dominate.DN > Bush's rounding up a group of vigilantes to teach Saddam a lesson won't makeM > us look any less like fools, it will just make us look like bullies as well , > who have no respect for international law. > M > The newest Bush plan seems to be that we can sweep over Iraq in short ordergN > and then largely leave it up to the rest of the world to pay for cleaning upF > the mess we've left - another disturbing echo of the Gulf War and anN > approach far more likely to result in repetitions of the events of 9/11/2001L > than to foster world-wide support for averting them.  And it's hardly newsM > that examples of unchecked aggression by the powerful lead other nations to K > seek weapons to protect themselves from being the next targets - the bestMM > and perhaps only justification for the weapons of mass destruction that oure1 > policies are supposedly designed to discourage.y > J > A major reason why we have three co-equal branches of government in thisI > country is to provide checks when one of them starts to run amuck.  ThenI > decision to wage war is very specifically vested in the Congress by ouroN > Constitution, a document that seems to be considered increasingly irrelevantM > by this Administration.  It's time for the Congress to step up to the platem0 > and do its duty, uncomfortable as that may be. >  > Sincerely yours, >  > William Todd > Strafford, NH-  B Although I disagree with most of your argument, the last paragraph deserves some comment.H WW2 was the last time the US formally declared war on anyone. Since thatH time, we've had the Korean War, Vietnam War and Gulf War, not to mentionG Panama, Grenada, Somalia and other interventions. So it's not just this D administration that ignores important parts of the Constitution, butD every administration - Demo & Rep alike - for some 50 years. You areB correct that Congress needs to step up to the plate, but once they@ allowed the Korean War to proceed they, in effect, gave up theirG authority to wage war, or peace. That's a shame, but it's just one more . reason we need serious Constitutional reform.    -- t   HAD VMS, Will Travel Wire paladin, San Franciscor   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 16:56:27 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <v6i5cckhghhjfe@news.supernews.com>m  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagen, news:GAqdnbmTAvDPkPSjXTWcqw@metrocast.net... >r: > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:QzdDeXoPYU3D@eisner.encompasserve.org...a   [snip]  @ > > To suggest there is some sort of hidden Imperialist American& > > agenda, isn't born out by history. >pL > We're not talking about history, we're talking about the cabal establishedB > in 1997 to establish direction for Republican policy in Iraq and
 elsewhere.H > I wish I had seen the entire Nightline program two nights ago, but the part  > I did see was chilling enough. >   * Very chilling, these people are dangerous!  - There agenda isn't hidden, their web site is: " http://www.newamericancentury.org/   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 22:18:24 GMTe% From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <3E691A7F.DCE89EC2@pacbell.net>c   Shane Smith wrote: >  > Bill Todd wrote: > <snip>L > >If you saw Nightline last night, you got a chilling view of where Dubya'sO > >Imperial America thinks it is heading.  We know what's best for your countryrM > >and the world and will do whatever we think is necessary to make it happenmJ > >(all of course from the best of motives), because we're America and you$ > >can't do a damn thing to stop us.  F Well thank God it's the USA that has all the power. I can think of 100> other countries which would not wield it as morally as we do.    > I > If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be about. J > America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wish moreE > average Americans traveled and actually lived in other places for anG > while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them more respect foraH > other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how much ofC > what they think of as basic truths are actually American culturalhJ > opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I've had overC > here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent among thetI > American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now, aftert" > the attacks, it's getting worse. >  > Shanet  H How is it then that we are BY FAR the most diverse country on earth. OurF cultural inputs have been from, and continue to be from, every nation.F I've been to Asia and Europe myself several times and I appreciate allG the cultures I've come in contact with. My children were even raised ina? a French school system, setup here in the states to accommodate>E transient expatriates (diplomats, etc.), so I've know many people whoiH were French speaking. And the one thing I've noticed about virtually ALLD of the non-US-citizens I've met is how much they appreciate the US. E The closed mindedness you attribute to the "American masses" is foundrF everywhere else in the world too. The close-minded and un-traveled areH often myopic in their world view, but that IN NO WAY is limited to thoseF in the US. If anything, "our masses" are exposed to other cultures far) more than those in the rest of the world..  F I hate to label anyone, but you sound like a typical Leftist; spoutingH from the "Red Book of the Politically Correct", subtitled "Hate America: It's the Right Thing to Do". -- r   Have VMS, Will Travel  Wire paladin, San Franciscoy   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 23:43:07 +0100I6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants' Message-ID: <3E69207B.80805@vajhoej.dk>i   Don Sykes wrote:F >          If anything, "our masses" are exposed to other cultures far+ > more than those in the rest of the world.e   Are you sure about that ?n  4 How large a percentage of americans has been outside the US ?  3 How large a percentage of americans speak a foreignu
 language ?   Arne   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 17:04:52 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <R_mcnc9zHuwaivSjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>  2 "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message$ news:3E69119D.ECEED45@pacbell.net...   ...i  ? > WW2 was the last time the US formally declared war on anyone.C   I'm well aware of that.E    Since thatL! > time, we've had the Korean War,e  J That was a U.N. affair in which we were merely the central rather than theG only player.  IIRC it was termed a 'police action', though it certainlyJJ qualified as a war.  In any event, it was not the U.S. prosecuting its ownK war but the U.N., so it was reasonably arguable that no U.S. declaration of  war was required.a  
 > Vietnam Warf  L That was an undeclared (and thus unConstitutional) war in very much the same9 sense that the proposed war with Iraq seems likely to be.e   > and Gulf War,f  L Another U.N.-sanctioned action (read the text of Security Council ResolutionF 678), though with the twist that the U.N. left it up to its individualH members to organize the activity (so that made it at least *closer* to a U.S., plus allies, war).    not to mentione3 > Panama, Grenada, Somalia and other interventions.s  L Those you mention start getting down into more the realm of 'police actions'J than 'wars'.  Somalia in particular was definitely such, though Panama andJ Grenada were more troubling (not so much because of their scope as becauseG of their motivation - though IIRC there was at least a fig leaf of U.S.d- citizen protection rationale for the latter).6    So it's not just thisF > administration that ignores important parts of the Constitution, but> > every administration - Demo & Rep alike - for some 50 years.  I Leaving aside the *other* critical portions of the Constitution that this H Administration has been ignoring with relish, as I noted above there areI signifant areas of grey in the majority of examples you provided which dor- not pertain to the proposed invasion of Iraq.s    You areD > correct that Congress needs to step up to the plate, but once theyB > allowed the Korean War to proceed they, in effect, gave up their" > authority to wage war, or peace.  J As noted, there's at least some room for justifying the Korean action as aL U.N. rather than a U.S. war.  But IMO there's no similar excuse for Vietnam,I so while I'd disagree the *every* Administration for 50 years has ignorednK the Constitution in this area that's certainly an example of one Democratics Administration which did.u  I None of which means that the Congress 'gave up' anything in any permanentvL manner:  they simply neglected to stand up for their rights, which in no wayH gave up those rights in perpetuity.  If they weighed in against war withH Iraq, the matter would then become a matter for the Supreme Court if the$ Administration refused to back down.  '  That's a shame, but it's just one moren/ > reason we need serious Constitutional reform.n  F Are you advocating that the Constitution be changed, or just followed?   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 23:18:17 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>C: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants' Message-ID: <3E691AA9.EF3A7B14@aaa.com>t   Shane Smith wrote: >  > If there is a world war 3,...r    Well, in a sense there is *now*.? On one side there is McDonalds, CocaCola, Hollywood and Disney, C on the other is all those other (real) cultures strugling for there  lifes.1 We'll see on a couple a 100's years who survived.  I'w no idea...  	 Jan-Erik.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 17:32:57 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <mOOdnTacgrCBg_SjXTWcrg@metrocast.net>  0 "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote in message) news:v6i5cckhghhjfe@news.supernews.com...m7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message . > news:GAqdnbmTAvDPkPSjXTWcqw@metrocast.net... > >m< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:QzdDeXoPYU3D@eisner.encompasserve.org...h >e > [snip] >-B > > > To suggest there is some sort of hidden Imperialist American( > > > agenda, isn't born out by history. > >xB > > We're not talking about history, we're talking about the cabal established D > > in 1997 to establish direction for Republican policy in Iraq and > elsewhere.J > > I wish I had seen the entire Nightline program two nights ago, but the > part" > > I did see was chilling enough. > >n > , > Very chilling, these people are dangerous! >l/ > There agenda isn't hidden, their web site is:u$ > http://www.newamericancentury.org/  H Thanks.  Too much to even begin to digest in one sitting, but seeing theI letter to Dubya advocating active interference with China's mamagement ofPJ Hong Kong (which is now of course *part* of China) was a sufficient start.K Their notes on Europe to the effect that it's only internationalist becausefB it lacks the power to dictate also seem a good indication of their philosophy.u  K Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz (the hard-core Iraq war crowd) were charter.J members.  Woolsey's statement praising their new book on Iraq says it all:F "We can only make the world safe for democracy by finishing the job of democratizing it."   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 22:54:50 GMTr% From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net>r: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <3E69230B.BF22404D@pacbell.net>o   Bill Todd wrote: > 4 > "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message& > news:3E69119D.ECEED45@pacbell.net... >  > ...o > A > > WW2 was the last time the US formally declared war on anyone.e >  > I'm well aware of that.n > 
 >  Since that # > > time, we've had the Korean War,  > L > That was a U.N. affair in which we were merely the central rather than theI > only player.  IIRC it was termed a 'police action', though it certainly-L > qualified as a war.  In any event, it was not the U.S. prosecuting its ownM > war but the U.N., so it was reasonably arguable that no U.S. declaration ofs > war was required.  > G That's just semantics. Call it a "police action" and it doesn't qualifya/ as a war? Tell that to the 30k dead Americans. yF Whether it was with, or without the UN, the point I was making is thatE the Constitution was not followed. I don't believe it was "reasonablytE arguable that no U.S. declaration of war was required". It was just aiE way for Truman to get around it and in doing so he (and the complicit / Congress) set a very bad and lasting precedent.e   > > Vietnam Warp > N > That was an undeclared (and thus unConstitutional) war in very much the same; > sense that the proposed war with Iraq seems likely to be.i  A True as far as legality - not as far as morality, objective, etc.-   >  > > and Gulf War,- > N > Another U.N.-sanctioned action (read the text of Security Council ResolutionH > 678), though with the twist that the U.N. left it up to its individualJ > members to organize the activity (so that made it at least *closer* to a > U.S., plus allies, war).  A Again, semantics to allow the Congress continue to avoid actually  *declaring* a war.   >  >  not to mentionp5 > > Panama, Grenada, Somalia and other interventions.o > N > Those you mention start getting down into more the realm of 'police actions'L > than 'wars'.  Somalia in particular was definitely such, though Panama andL > Grenada were more troubling (not so much because of their scope as becauseI > of their motivation - though IIRC there was at least a fig leaf of U.S. / > citizen protection rationale for the latter).a >  >  So it's not just thisH > > administration that ignores important parts of the Constitution, but@ > > every administration - Demo & Rep alike - for some 50 years. > K > Leaving aside the *other* critical portions of the Constitution that thishJ > Administration has been ignoring with relish, as I noted above there areK > signifant areas of grey in the majority of examples you provided which doa/ > not pertain to the proposed invasion of Iraq.   F Nor do those *other* critical portions of the Constitution you mentionH pertain to the proposed invasion of Iraq. But I say again your argumentsG are all basically semantical and contrived by those who never wanted top face a declaration of war vote.n   > 
 >  You areF > > correct that Congress needs to step up to the plate, but once theyD > > allowed the Korean War to proceed they, in effect, gave up their$ > > authority to wage war, or peace. > L > As noted, there's at least some room for justifying the Korean action as aN > U.N. rather than a U.S. war.  But IMO there's no similar excuse for Vietnam,K > so while I'd disagree the *every* Administration for 50 years has ignored M > the Constitution in this area that's certainly an example of one Democratic  > Administration which did.h > K > None of which means that the Congress 'gave up' anything in any permanentiN > manner:  they simply neglected to stand up for their rights, which in no wayJ > gave up those rights in perpetuity.  If they weighed in against war withJ > Iraq, the matter would then become a matter for the Supreme Court if the& > Administration refused to back down.  H While they did not *technically* give up their right to decide war, theyD implicitly turned that right over to the Executive branch and now itD probably *would* take an action of the Supreme Court to get it back.   > ) >  That's a shame, but it's just one moree1 > > reason we need serious Constitutional reform.C > H > Are you advocating that the Constitution be changed, or just followed?  < Big, big question. A few years back (6-7) I wrote a sweeping6 constitutional amendment that addresses just that (seeF http://alphase.com/newusa/newusa.html). I haven't revisited it in someH time, but it lays out a new "true democracy" - but that really is a muchC different discussion and as this is a VMS NG I think we've gone far  enough in OT'ness!     >  > - bill   -- m   Have VMS, Will Travelg Wire paladin, San Franciscou   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 18:04:06 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <2Y6cnYEqhN70uPSjXTWcrg@metrocast.net>  2 "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message% news:3E691A7F.DCE89EC2@pacbell.net...v >g >m > Shane Smith wrote: > >l > > Bill Todd wrote:
 > > <snip>F > > >If you saw Nightline last night, you got a chilling view of where Dubya'soI > > >Imperial America thinks it is heading.  We know what's best for your  countryiH > > >and the world and will do whatever we think is necessary to make it happenL > > >(all of course from the best of motives), because we're America and you& > > >can't do a damn thing to stop us. >aH > Well thank God it's the USA that has all the power. I can think of 100? > other countries which would not wield it as morally as we do.   I An irrelevant observation even assuming that it's true:  the fact that itvF might be hard to find a country which would wield comparable power any- better in no way justifies *our* abuse of it.o   >n > >tK > > If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be about.gL > > America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wish moreG > > average Americans traveled and actually lived in other places for a I > > while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them more respect forsJ > > other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how much ofE > > what they think of as basic truths are actually American culturalcL > > opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I've had overE > > here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent among theiK > > American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now, afters$ > > the attacks, it's getting worse. > >u	 > > Shanel > F > How is it then that we are BY FAR the most diverse country on earth.  I It is because ethnic diversity in no way guarantees breadth of viewpoint. K In part this is because new immigrants are proud to be here and make activeeG efforts to adopt what seem to be existing norms:  they may retain large G elements of their *ethnic* identity, and even of the *personal cultural I identity* of their countries of origin, but that doesn't mean they retain G the foreign *attitudes*, because they don't want to consider themselves 7 'foreign' after moving here, they want to be Americans.   F Shane's phrase ('American cultural opinions') may not have been ideal:F while there is to some degree an 'American culture', I agree that it'sH increasingly hard to pin down due to increasing diversity - even Dubya'sI attempts to evoke memories of 'the law of the West' don't resonate with anJ large portion of our population, though of course still with a significant2 percentage compared to anywhere else in the world.  G Nonetheless, there's *enormous* pressure to conform to, or at least notoG dispute, certain very parochial attitudes ("My country, right or wrong"eB being quite high on the list).  Even I feel it, and I had multipleE identifiable ancestors who arrived here on the Mayflower (and I don'tc9 believe any who arrived later than the mid 19th century).a    OurH > cultural inputs have been from, and continue to be from, every nation.H > I've been to Asia and Europe myself several times and I appreciate allI > the cultures I've come in contact with. My children were even raised innA > a French school system, setup here in the states to accommodate-G > transient expatriates (diplomats, etc.), so I've know many people whoRJ > were French speaking. And the one thing I've noticed about virtually ALLE > of the non-US-citizens I've met is how much they appreciate the US.C  K I suspect that this appreciation may have taken a significant dive over the H past two years, at least with respect to our government (there's still aL great deal of goodwill toward the American people - why, is not clear, since3 we are after all *responsible* for our government).r  G > The closed mindedness you attribute to the "American masses" is found H > everywhere else in the world too. The close-minded and un-traveled areJ > often myopic in their world view, but that IN NO WAY is limited to those > in the US.  H Of course it isn't.  But that in no way refutes Shane's observation thatJ *we* are incredibly myopic, and while it may make that more understandableI the obvious comment to be made is that if we're no better in this respectoG than the rest of the world, we shouldn't expect to exercise any unusuale  degree of leadership or control.  <  If anything, "our masses" are exposed to other cultures far+ > more than those in the rest of the world.z  ? Debatable.  There's a major difference between being exposed todL partially-assimilated immigrants (to the degree that such exposure occurs atL all:  until they're fairly well-assimilated, such immigrants tend to keep toJ their own enclaves, at least as far as exposing others to their culture isJ concerned) and constantly rubbing elbows with those who are *still living*F in their other cultures as happens constantly in, say, central Europe.   >h > I hate to label anyone,e  F But don't seem to have made any real effort to analyse what Shane said before doing so.  ' > but you sound like a typical Leftist;r  H Because he decried the parochial nature of the American viewpoint, whichK your statements above even seem to agree with (all you advanced in rebuttalj was "everyone's just as bad")?  	  spouting J > from the "Red Book of the Politically Correct", subtitled "Hate America: > It's the Right Thing to Do".  H People hate America not because we're parochial but because we have, andL use, the power we have to affect *them*.  If we just minded our own internal* business our parochialism wouldn't matter.   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 17:37:05 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <F-SdnZ5McLuJgvSjXTWc3Q@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:iBagDRBn3GHw@eisner.encompasserve.org...a> > In article <01C2E498.18284750@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes: > >g > > Bill Todd wrote:
 > > <snip>E > >>If you saw Nightline last night, you got a chilling view of where- Dubya's-H > >>Imperial America thinks it is heading.  We know what's best for your country.G > >>and the world and will do whatever we think is necessary to make it  happenK > >>(all of course from the best of motives), because we're America and youF% > >>can't do a damn thing to stop us.0 > >5K > > If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be about.nL > > America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wish moreG > > average Americans traveled and actually lived in other places for a I > > while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them more respect for>J > > other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how much ofE > > what they think of as basic truths are actually American culturaloL > > opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I've had overE > > here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent among theUK > > American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now, afteri$ > > the attacks, it's getting worse. > >a >  > Sigh.  Big big sigh. >a > So vacuous and content free.   As usual, Rob, you're confused.d  G Exactly what about the assertion that the U.S. population is incrediblyWD insular and parochial is content-free?  Seems like a pretty specificH statement to me:  you can of course choose to *disagree* with it, but to< suggest that it's content-free is, well, simply incompetent.   >l > Let me add my two cents.  L We don't seem to have much choice in the matter, so I guess that's just more5 persiflage.  Perhaps we'll find actual content below.r  '   I've been to cultures where attitudess > and opinions differ.   I'm glad for you.   / >  They too are close-minded in their approach.a  F 'They too' would seem to agree that the U.S. is as well:  is that yourD intent, or are you just throwing phrases around incompetently again?  A > We also know of other cultures that are notoriously xenophobic.oH > So much so, that if you are caught proselytizing or practicing certain > religions you are arrested.4 >k- > How's that for a good vacuous counterpoint?=  I Ah - you were providing an *example* of vacuity.  However, that in no way F makes Shane's statement vacuous - and therefore continues your perfect- batting average here:  no content whatsoever.A   >e> > The difference is of course my examples are easy to trot out
 > and defend.u  J The other difference is that they're wholly irrelevant to Shane's comments about *U.S.* attidutes.o  3 >  Your's in contrast aren't.  Or you would give ush
 > examples  + Finally:  content in the form of a request.   B The situation since Dubya's quick escalation from "Hunt down thoseJ responsible and bring them to justice" on 9/11/2001 - an entirely laudableJ goal - to a generalized war on terrorism by 9/14/2001 (Nightline the otherI night noted that by 9/13/2001 the rabid Administration hawks were already I talking about including Iraq, but of course that wasn't made public untiltH much later), to "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" aL couple of weeks later, to the 'Axis of evil' declaration, to the invasion ofL Iraq, in which save for the very first two steps the U.S. is so dramaticallyL out of step with the rest of the world, seems example enough.  But of courseG earlier examples included the scrapping of the Kyoto treaty and general-1 disregard of the international community's views.8  ? The U.S. population has by and large gone along with such Dubya L 'leadership', though the disconnects with the rest of the world have been soA dramatic that at least some elements of them have seeped into thenK consciousness of those whose eyes weren't completely shut (unfortunately, afJ small minority).  I'm sure that others can provide additional examples for your edification.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 23:08:04 GMT % From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net>.: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <3E692625.BE37CB7C@pacbell.net>    Arne Vajhj wrote: >  > Don Sykes wrote:H > >          If anything, "our masses" are exposed to other cultures far- > > more than those in the rest of the world.l >  > Are you sure about that ?n  C Yes, but the difference is other cultures come to us - on their owna accord I might add.aH Of course nowadays Europe has had a migration too, but they're still way( behind in terms of the immigrant influx.   > 6 > How large a percentage of americans has been outside
 > the US ?E While I might agree that a smaller % of Americans has been outside ofrE the US, than say the Swiss, I'd say the Swiss don't have far to go too@ get outside. Indeed anywhere in Europe is close. If however yourG comparing our travels to the vast world population, I'd say a lot of usaD have journeyed to other countries. How many of the 1B Chineese or 1BC Indians have traveled outside their countries. Or, how many Iraqi's  have?e   > 5 > How large a percentage of americans speak a foreigna > language ?  < About 30%. Mostly Spanish, but most other languages are wellD represented. I know here in San Francisco, the voting ballots are inC about 7 languages. My children speak 3. I speak 1+1/2 plus C, Java,  Cobol, etc.i   --   Have VMS, Will Travelu Wire paladin, San Franciscos   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 15:28:10 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>: Subject: RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants0 Message-ID: <01C2E4BE.2EA85C60@sulfer.icius.com>  F The inputs are very diverse, and there are subgroups, but the majorityG of Americans are not first or second generation immigrants. They're theiH product of growing up in this society. You are obviously one of the moreC traveled Americans, good for you. And praise is due for giving youraE children the same opportunity. The proportion of blinkered minds hereaF is, by my observation, more widespread than anywhere else I've been. I( even get asked what state England is in.  G Did I say I hate America? I don't. I like Americans, although there arehE elements to American group psychology that bugs me.  Look around, see E how the rest of the world sees you. The first word most non-AmericansdE use to describe Americans is arrogant. I don't think this is right, I @ think it's a side effect of the cultural ignorance most AmericanH tourists exhibit abroad. Yes, this is personal observation, and it's theH butt of countless comedy sketches. Even here. And America is not exposedA to other cultures as much as other cultures are exposed to yours.bH Hollywood, anyone? You probably don't even know how much you're shieldedE from other countries' influences. For example, I constantly marvel at D the number of Discovery channel programs that are BBC produced, thenG voiced over with American accents. They don't even bother to change thedG narrators' names on the credits: I assure you, Dennis Waterman does not- come from Dallas.-  G Someone asked for an example. Here's one I tease the closed minded withlH frequently. The age of consent. All the insular Americans I meet here inG CA think that 18 is the absolute right age for the age of consent. It's H so ingrained, they don't think about it, and they think any country thatG doesn't abide by it is somehow uncivilized. So I ask them if England is'H civilized. The answer is yes. But our age of consent is 16. Then I throwF Holland's 14 at them. They are scandalized. They can't see that it's aD choice a society makes, 18 is Just Plain Right, because they grew upF with it. They either end up somewhat shaken, or refuse to consider it, or call me a liar. Every time.  B That's it. I'm dropping out of this thread. I didn't want to start another branch.r   Shaneo   -----Original Message-----, From: Don Sykes [mailto:alphase@pacbell.net]$ Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 2:18 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants         Shane Smith wrote: >  > Bill Todd wrote: > <snip>L > >If you saw Nightline last night, you got a chilling view of where Dubya'sG > >Imperial America thinks it is heading.  We know what's best for yours country M > >and the world and will do whatever we think is necessary to make it happeniJ > >(all of course from the best of motives), because we're America and you$ > >can't do a damn thing to stop us.  F Well thank God it's the USA that has all the power. I can think of 100> other countries which would not wield it as morally as we do.    > I > If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be about.eJ > America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wish moreE > average Americans traveled and actually lived in other places for arG > while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them more respect fordH > other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how much ofC > what they think of as basic truths are actually American culturaluJ > opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I've had overC > here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent among thetI > American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now, after " > the attacks, it's getting worse. >  > Shaned  H How is it then that we are BY FAR the most diverse country on earth. OurF cultural inputs have been from, and continue to be from, every nation.F I've been to Asia and Europe myself several times and I appreciate allG the cultures I've come in contact with. My children were even raised ins? a French school system, setup here in the states to accommodate E transient expatriates (diplomats, etc.), so I've know many people who H were French speaking. And the one thing I've noticed about virtually ALLD of the non-US-citizens I've met is how much they appreciate the US. E The closed mindedness you attribute to the "American masses" is found F everywhere else in the world too. The close-minded and un-traveled areH often myopic in their world view, but that IN NO WAY is limited to thoseF in the US. If anything, "our masses" are exposed to other cultures far) more than those in the rest of the world.t  F I hate to label anyone, but you sound like a typical Leftist; spoutingH from the "Red Book of the Politically Correct", subtitled "Hate America: It's the Right Thing to Do". -- o   Have VMS, Will Travelw Wire paladin, San Franciscof   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 23:44:39 GMTrL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"): Subject: RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants6 Message-ID: <00A1C848.ED5E6B22@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  W In article <01C2E4BE.2EA85C60@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:o >eH >Someone asked for an example. Here's one I tease the closed minded withI >frequently. The age of consent. All the insular Americans I meet here insH >CA think that 18 is the absolute right age for the age of consent. It'sI >so ingrained, they don't think about it, and they think any country thatsH >doesn't abide by it is somehow uncivilized. So I ask them if England isI >civilized. The answer is yes. But our age of consent is 16. Then I throwtG >Holland's 14 at them. They are scandalized. They can't see that it's anE >choice a society makes, 18 is Just Plain Right, because they grew upiG >with it. They either end up somewhat shaken, or refuse to consider it,  >or call me a liar. Every time.   N That's darned insular of the Californians, considering that the age of consent  varies -by state- within the US.   -- Alan (a Californian)   O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056pM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   940250O ===============================================================================i   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 00:03:51 GMTr% From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net>r: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <3E693336.5BA0FEF1@pacbell.net>c   Bill Todd wrote: > 4 > "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message' > news:3E691A7F.DCE89EC2@pacbell.net...  > >s > >f > > Shane Smith wrote: > > >  > > > Bill Todd wrote: > > > <snip>H > > > >If you saw Nightline last night, you got a chilling view of where	 > Dubya'snK > > > >Imperial America thinks it is heading.  We know what's best for your 	 > countrydJ > > > >and the world and will do whatever we think is necessary to make it > happenN > > > >(all of course from the best of motives), because we're America and you( > > > >can't do a damn thing to stop us. > >wJ > > Well thank God it's the USA that has all the power. I can think of 100A > > other countries which would not wield it as morally as we do.: > K > An irrelevant observation even assuming that it's true:  the fact that it2H > might be hard to find a country which would wield comparable power any/ > better in no way justifies *our* abuse of it.i   Irrelevant reply :) F Of course abuse of power is wrong. But having power and failing to use it can also be wrong.w   >  > >l > > >aM > > > If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be about. N > > > America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wish moreI > > > average Americans traveled and actually lived in other places for a K > > > while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them more respect foreL > > > other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how much ofG > > > what they think of as basic truths are actually American culturalgN > > > opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I've had overG > > > here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent among the M > > > American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now, aftera& > > > the attacks, it's getting worse. > > >  > > > Shaneo > >lH > > How is it then that we are BY FAR the most diverse country on earth. > K > It is because ethnic diversity in no way guarantees breadth of viewpoint.pM > In part this is because new immigrants are proud to be here and make active.I > efforts to adopt what seem to be existing norms:  they may retain largeyI > elements of their *ethnic* identity, and even of the *personal culturaleK > identity* of their countries of origin, but that doesn't mean they retaineI > the foreign *attitudes*, because they don't want to consider themselvesi9 > 'foreign' after moving here, they want to be Americans.o  F What's your point? I simply said, we're more diverse than anyone else.   > H > Shane's phrase ('American cultural opinions') may not have been ideal:H > while there is to some degree an 'American culture', I agree that it'sJ > increasingly hard to pin down due to increasing diversity - even Dubya'sK > attempts to evoke memories of 'the law of the West' don't resonate with acL > large portion of our population, though of course still with a significant4 > percentage compared to anywhere else in the world. > I > Nonetheless, there's *enormous* pressure to conform to, or at least not I > dispute, certain very parochial attitudes ("My country, right or wrong"lD > being quite high on the list).  Even I feel it, and I had multipleG > identifiable ancestors who arrived here on the Mayflower (and I don'tl; > believe any who arrived later than the mid 19th century).0  D I don't believe "My country, right or wrong", although I'd certainlyG give the benefit of the doubt to my country. My point is, in this case,e  I believe my country *is* right.H And I too come from Mayflowers, as well as late 19th century immigrants.   >  >  OurJ > > cultural inputs have been from, and continue to be from, every nation.J > > I've been to Asia and Europe myself several times and I appreciate allK > > the cultures I've come in contact with. My children were even raised in C > > a French school system, setup here in the states to accommodate0I > > transient expatriates (diplomats, etc.), so I've know many people whoML > > were French speaking. And the one thing I've noticed about virtually ALLG > > of the non-US-citizens I've met is how much they appreciate the US.C > M > I suspect that this appreciation may have taken a significant dive over therJ > past two years, at least with respect to our government (there's still aN > great deal of goodwill toward the American people - why, is not clear, since5 > we are after all *responsible* for our government).i > I > > The closed mindedness you attribute to the "American masses" is found J > > everywhere else in the world too. The close-minded and un-traveled areL > > often myopic in their world view, but that IN NO WAY is limited to those > > in the US. > J > Of course it isn't.  But that in no way refutes Shane's observation that > *we* are incredibly myopic,   H Then why are there so many Americans that think like you? I think we areH less myopic than most and the proof is in this very exchange between two
 Americans!  0 > and while it may make that more understandableK > the obvious comment to be made is that if we're no better in this respectoI > than the rest of the world, we shouldn't expect to exercise any unusualo" > degree of leadership or control.  % So who should? France? Russia? Iraq? oE I know you will say the UN, but we are part of that forum too. As areeH the Brits. And of all the countries in that body, I for one, think we're0 pretty on target in keeping with its principles.   > > >  If anything, "our masses" are exposed to other cultures far- > > more than those in the rest of the world.  > A > Debatable.  There's a major difference between being exposed to N > partially-assimilated immigrants (to the degree that such exposure occurs atN > all:  until they're fairly well-assimilated, such immigrants tend to keep toL > their own enclaves, at least as far as exposing others to their culture isL > concerned) and constantly rubbing elbows with those who are *still living*H > in their other cultures as happens constantly in, say, central Europe.  F How much rubbing of elbows really occurs? In central Europe, I'd guessB it's pretty much limited to other central Europeans. No. You won'tC convince me the rest of the world is enlightened compared to us. If.E pressed, I would take the alternative view, although I really believe C enlightened and unenlightened are pretty much spread evenly around.n   >  > >e > > I hate to label anyone,  > H > But don't seem to have made any real effort to analyse what Shane said > before doing so.  8 I think I addressed his warmed-over rhetoric quite well.   > ) > > but you sound like a typical Leftist;e > J > Because he decried the parochial nature of the American viewpoint, whichM > your statements above even seem to agree with (all you advanced in rebuttalr  > was "everyone's just as bad")?  B Not true. Let me put it another way, his arguments are politically correct tripe.   >  >  spoutingaL > > from the "Red Book of the Politically Correct", subtitled "Hate America:  > > It's the Right Thing to Do". > J > People hate America not because we're parochial but because we have, andN > use, the power we have to affect *them*.  If we just minded our own internal, > business our parochialism wouldn't matter. >   G Seems like you're proposing isolationism. I suppose we should have leftoG the Yugoslavian mess all to the Europeans. They seemed to be doing suchr$ a good job stopping that holocaust. E I wonder what would happen if we really *did* mind our own business? vH Let's see... Iraq would take over the mid east and blackmail Europe. TheG Chinese would rule Asia. The North Koreans would take over South Korea.sE The Indians and Pakistani's would have a small nuclear war and Frances* would once again dominate world diplomacy. Ok. You've convinced me.   -- c   Have VMS, Will Travels Wire paladin, San Franciscos   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 00:25:49 GMTr% From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net>u: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <3E69385E.B5A7459F@pacbell.net>]   Shane Smith wrote: > H > The inputs are very diverse, and there are subgroups, but the majorityI > of Americans are not first or second generation immigrants. They're theoJ > product of growing up in this society. You are obviously one of the moreE > traveled Americans, good for you. And praise is due for giving yourgG > children the same opportunity. The proportion of blinkered minds heregH > is, by my observation, more widespread than anywhere else I've been. I* > even get asked what state England is in.  D I hear that from others too. And if I were to take seriously the JayH Walking segment on the Tonight Show, I might even believe it. But that's@ just for show. My observation is most people are intelligent andF thoughtful if you talk to them 1-on-1. I haven't had the experience of5 talking to Americans who don't know where England is.a     > I > Did I say I hate America? I don't. I like Americans, although there areyG > elements to American group psychology that bugs me.  Look around, see & > how the rest of the world sees you. # > The first word most non-Americansi) > use to describe Americans is arrogant. r  F Why is it up to *me* to own the feelings of other peoples? If they seeE us as arrogant that's their problem. I don't believe we are arrogant.  Now the French...p   >I don't think this is right, IaB > think it's a side effect of the cultural ignorance most AmericanJ > tourists exhibit abroad. Yes, this is personal observation, and it's the% > butt of countless comedy sketches. 4  D So what? Is it so bad that some Americans don't know what a bidet isH for? I'm sure peoples visiting here for the first time might seem pretty
 ignorant too.e    ' > Even here. And America is not exposedaC > to other cultures as much as other cultures are exposed to yours.nJ > Hollywood, anyone? You probably don't even know how much you're shieldedG > from other countries' influences. For example, I constantly marvel at F > the number of Discovery channel programs that are BBC produced, thenI > voiced over with American accents. They don't even bother to change theaI > narrators' names on the credits: I assure you, Dennis Waterman does notn > come from Dallas.w  = I will agree with you on the point that it would be nice, andiE advantageous, to get more international viewpoints on a regular basistH from our TV, but I don't see how redbuubing English for the American ear is of any importance.    > I > Someone asked for an example. Here's one I tease the closed minded withtJ > frequently. The age of consent. All the insular Americans I meet here inI > CA think that 18 is the absolute right age for the age of consent. It'smJ > so ingrained, they don't think about it, and they think any country thatI > doesn't abide by it is somehow uncivilized. So I ask them if England is(J > civilized. The answer is yes. But our age of consent is 16. Then I throwH > Holland's 14 at them. They are scandalized. They can't see that it's aF > choice a society makes, 18 is Just Plain Right, because they grew upH > with it. They either end up somewhat shaken, or refuse to consider it,  > or call me a liar. Every time.  E I don't know with whom you speak, but as I said eariler, ignorance ish not an American monopoly.n   > D > That's it. I'm dropping out of this thread. I didn't want to start > another branch.i >  > Shaneo >  > -----Original Message-----. > From: Don Sykes [mailto:alphase@pacbell.net]& > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 2:18 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comf< > Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants >  > Shane Smith wrote: > >h > > Bill Todd wrote:
 > > <snip>N > > >If you saw Nightline last night, you got a chilling view of where Dubya'sI > > >Imperial America thinks it is heading.  We know what's best for youri	 > countryCO > > >and the world and will do whatever we think is necessary to make it happendL > > >(all of course from the best of motives), because we're America and you& > > >can't do a damn thing to stop us. > H > Well thank God it's the USA that has all the power. I can think of 100? > other countries which would not wield it as morally as we do.  >  > > K > > If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be about. L > > America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wish moreG > > average Americans traveled and actually lived in other places for aeI > > while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them more respect foroJ > > other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how much ofE > > what they think of as basic truths are actually American culturalrL > > opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I've had overE > > here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent among thetK > > American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now, after $ > > the attacks, it's getting worse. > >v	 > > Shanei > J > How is it then that we are BY FAR the most diverse country on earth. OurH > cultural inputs have been from, and continue to be from, every nation.H > I've been to Asia and Europe myself several times and I appreciate allI > the cultures I've come in contact with. My children were even raised inhA > a French school system, setup here in the states to accommodatemG > transient expatriates (diplomats, etc.), so I've know many people whobJ > were French speaking. And the one thing I've noticed about virtually ALLE > of the non-US-citizens I've met is how much they appreciate the US.tG > The closed mindedness you attribute to the "American masses" is foundeH > everywhere else in the world too. The close-minded and un-traveled areJ > often myopic in their world view, but that IN NO WAY is limited to thoseH > in the US. If anything, "our masses" are exposed to other cultures far+ > more than those in the rest of the world.  > H > I hate to label anyone, but you sound like a typical Leftist; spoutingJ > from the "Red Book of the Politically Correct", subtitled "Hate America: > It's the Right Thing to Do". > -- >  > Have VMS, Will Travel- > Wire paladin, San Francisco  >  > (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   -- r   Have VMS, Will Travel@ Wire paladin, San FranciscoO   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:26:41 -0400n0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E6938A4.622954FF@vl.videotron.ca>   J > > Well thank God it's the USA that has all the power. I can think of 100A > > other countries which would not wield it as morally as we do.f  M The policeman may be the one with all the power, the gun, and the terminal in K his car to check your license and obtain information. But the policemen can'M ONLY apply EXISTING laws. He cannot set his own laws and implement them as hed5 wishes. If he does that, it is called abuse of power.0    N Iraq has yet to fully complete the process set out post Gulf War Part 1.0. AllM the resolutions only point to the fact that the process isn't complete. It isf  a UN process. Not a USA process.  N If the UN says that the process has once again begun to move forwards and thatJ they are satisfied that it is moving forwards and refuse military action, O then the USA has no right to invade Iraq and install a USA friendly govermnent.   K This is like a cop arresting you because he doesn't like the colour of your H car and sends you to jail for whatever concucted reason he can think of.  B Iraq is no immediate threath to the USA. The USA has absolutely noH justification to invade it. Certaintly not self defense since Iraq isn't+ anywhere near capable of attacking the USA.c  M When Bush Jr is kicked out, how much will it cost the USa in money, pride andvL priciples to repair the international damage to the USA's image that Bush Jr is/has caused ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:34:36 -0400n0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E693A7E.EA9E6118@vl.videotron.ca>e   Shane Smith wrote:J > butt of countless comedy sketches. Even here. And America is not exposedC > to other cultures as much as other cultures are exposed to yours.e  1 Why can't teh USa actually show original films ? u 	La Totale --> True Lies4 	Trois hommes et un couffin --> three men and a babyI 	La Cage aux Folles --> (oops, forgot the american knockoff) (Birdcage ?), 	e There is a long list.   8 Has any american ever heard Cline Dion sing in French ?= Remember 99-luft-balons ? In the USA, it was 99 red balloons.u  L Why did Chris Carter have to spend so much money to make Vancouver look likeL "anytown USA" ? Because he know that his X-files would never catch on in theJ USA if they used Vancouver as the real city where the stories are set. So,N whenever they shoot a scene, they drop all canadian flags, hide  postal boxes,3 licence plates etc, and put up fake US equivalents.e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 20:28:42 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <FKScnc2A9PXQ2vSjXTWcow@metrocast.net>  2 "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message% news:3E693336.5BA0FEF1@pacbell.net...m >n >o > Bill Todd wrote: > >n6 > > "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message) > > news:3E691A7F.DCE89EC2@pacbell.net...v > > >i > > >c > > > Shane Smith wrote:   ...s  H > > > > If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be about.K > > > > America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wishc moreK > > > > average Americans traveled and actually lived in other places for aiI > > > > while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them more respectp foraK > > > > other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how mucht ofI > > > > what they think of as basic truths are actually American cultural K > > > > opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I've hadr overI > > > > here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent among theeI > > > > American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now,r aftera( > > > > the attacks, it's getting worse. > > > > 
 > > > > Shanee > > >oJ > > > How is it then that we are BY FAR the most diverse country on earth. > >vB > > It is because ethnic diversity in no way guarantees breadth of
 viewpoint.H > > In part this is because new immigrants are proud to be here and make activeK > > efforts to adopt what seem to be existing norms:  they may retain largeeK > > elements of their *ethnic* identity, and even of the *personal culturaltF > > identity* of their countries of origin, but that doesn't mean they retainK > > the foreign *attitudes*, because they don't want to consider themselvesi; > > 'foreign' after moving here, they want to be Americans.i >hH > What's your point? I simply said, we're more diverse than anyone else.  J No.  By asking "How is it then..." you clearly suggested that this somehowL refuted Shane's observations about our insularity.  My point was that it didL not (and given that, it's not clear what the relevance of your statement wasH supposed to be - unless you indeed mistakenly felt that it constituted a refutation).   ...d  K > > > The closed mindedness you attribute to the "American masses" is foundpL > > > everywhere else in the world too. The close-minded and un-traveled areH > > > often myopic in their world view, but that IN NO WAY is limited to those  > > > in the US. > >eL > > Of course it isn't.  But that in no way refutes Shane's observation that > > *we* are incredibly myopic,  >r; > Then why are there so many Americans that think like you?,  G Because out of nearly 300,000,000 people here it would be surprising ifuJ there were not.  On average, however, we're indeed incredibly myopic:  the% proof is in the politicians we elect.:    I think we arelJ > less myopic than most and the proof is in this very exchange between two > Americans!  J Two out of close to 300,000,000 hardly constitutes proof.  Even 20,000,000# out of nearly 300,000,000 wouldn't.    >i2 > > and while it may make that more understandableE > > the obvious comment to be made is that if we're no better in this> respect K > > than the rest of the world, we shouldn't expect to exercise any unusualy$ > > degree of leadership or control. >-& > So who should? France? Russia? Iraq?  K No one, of course - not unless they would do so a lot more responsibly thant we're doing these days.y  @ > I know you will say the UN, but we are part of that forum too.  I Exactly.  And working *as part of that forum* is what we should be doing.     As areeJ > the Brits. And of all the countries in that body, I for one, think we're2 > pretty on target in keeping with its principles.  G Not when we tell it that we're going our own way regardless of what thepE world community thinks.  As was observed on the floor of the SecuritymJ Council today, that body *itself* functions as a democracy (a democracy ofK nations) with an established body of laws, and stepping outside those laws,nD as we are proposing to do, is incompatible with a true commitment to
 democracy.   ...    > > > I hate to label anyone,n > >tJ > > But don't seem to have made any real effort to analyse what Shane said > > before doing so. > : > I think I addressed his warmed-over rhetoric quite well.  D And I think you give yourself far too much credit, since in fact youL advanced *nothing* to refute it (the closest you came was the "everyone else is just as bad" non-argument).   >a > >c+ > > > but you sound like a typical Leftist;t > >nL > > Because he decried the parochial nature of the American viewpoint, whichF > > your statements above even seem to agree with (all you advanced in rebuttal" > > was "everyone's just as bad")? >n > Not true.s  D Would you care to point out any portion of your response that cannot+ properly be summed up as I did above, then?t  9  Let me put it another way, his arguments are politicallyT > correct tripe.  J The truth that appears to be emerging is that you're something of a bigot,G without much of a clue about analyzing content rather than jerking yourn/ knee.  But perhaps it's just a momentary lapse.t   >t > >r
 > >  spoutingeE > > > from the "Red Book of the Politically Correct", subtitled "Hatei America:" > > > It's the Right Thing to Do". > > L > > People hate America not because we're parochial but because we have, andG > > use, the power we have to affect *them*.  If we just minded our ownu internal. > > business our parochialism wouldn't matter. > >e >n+ > Seems like you're proposing isolationism.e  J Not at all:  I'm just proposing that we *either* act responsibly *or* keepK our actions within our borders.  I (and my guess is most of the rest of theaH world) would prefer the former, but even the latter would likely be more2 acceptable to the world than what we're doing now.    I suppose we should have leftI > the Yugoslavian mess all to the Europeans. They seemed to be doing such"% > a good job stopping that holocaust.o  6 We acted responsibly there, IMO - so no problem arose.  F > I wonder what would happen if we really *did* mind our own business?J > Let's see... Iraq would take over the mid east and blackmail Europe. TheI > Chinese would rule Asia. The North Koreans would take over South Korea.eG > The Indians and Pakistani's would have a small nuclear war and France , > would once again dominate world diplomacy.  F Possibly some or even all of those things would happen, which is why ID believe that most of the rest of the world would prefer that we be aL responsible and even leading world citizen rather than retreat to within ourJ shores.  We could even threaten the other countries of the world with suchJ dire visions and say "It's either that, or let us have our own way!" - butF the point is that *such a decision (whether we're worth accommodating)J should be theirs to make*, and that we should not feel free to make it forI them (by taking any action our power allows us to when they oppose us andeC rationalizing our right to by the possible good that our continuing-, engagement with the world may also produce).   > Ok. You've convinced me.  F You're starting to strike me as someone whose mind is already made up.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 01:59:24 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants6 Message-ID: <00A1C85B.C093BD4F@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  b In article <3E693A7E.EA9E6118@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: >Shane Smith wrote:,K >> butt of countless comedy sketches. Even here. And America is not exposed D >> to other cultures as much as other cultures are exposed to yours. >h2 >Why can't teh USa actually show original films ?  >	La Totale --> True Liese5 >	Trois hommes et un couffin --> three men and a baby J >	La Cage aux Folles --> (oops, forgot the american knockoff) (Birdcage ?)  N Because we're illiterates who don't speak French and who can't read subtitles.   >	 >There is a long list. >h9 >Has any american ever heard Cline Dion sing in French ?.> >Remember 99-luft-balons ? In the USA, it was 99 red balloons. >mM >Why did Chris Carter have to spend so much money to make Vancouver look liketM >"anytown USA" ? Because he know that his X-files would never catch on in theaK >USA if they used Vancouver as the real city where the stories are set. So,aO >whenever they shoot a scene, they drop all canadian flags, hide  postal boxes, 4 >licence plates etc, and put up fake US equivalents.  ) What would the FBI be doing in Vancouver?0   -- Alann    O ===============================================================================s0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056AM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025fO ===============================================================================s   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 02:03:12 GMToL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants6 Message-ID: <00A1C85C.48676A5B@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>   In article <00A1C85B.C093BD4F@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes: c >In article <3E693A7E.EA9E6118@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:i >>Shane Smith wrote:L >>> butt of countless comedy sketches. Even here. And America is not exposedE >>> to other cultures as much as other cultures are exposed to yours.o >>3 >>Why can't teh USa actually show original films ? p >>	La Totale --> True Lies6 >>	Trois hommes et un couffin --> three men and a babyK >>	La Cage aux Folles --> (oops, forgot the american knockoff) (Birdcage ?)u >iO >Because we're illiterates who don't speak French and who can't read subtitles.n  N On second thought, I'll be fair. La Cage aux Folles ran in art theatres in theK US for a long, long time, in  French, with subtitles.  Probably hundreds ofoM thousands of Americans saw it.  (It was then adapted into an Broadway musicaleN in English, set in France.  And then it was adapted into a silly American film set in Miami.)   >>There is a long list.t >>: >>Has any american ever heard Cline Dion sing in French ?   Is it any less painful?n  ? >>Remember 99-luft-balons ? In the USA, it was 99 red balloons.y >>N >>Why did Chris Carter have to spend so much money to make Vancouver look likeN >>"anytown USA" ? Because he know that his X-files would never catch on in theL >>USA if they used Vancouver as the real city where the stories are set. So,P >>whenever they shoot a scene, they drop all canadian flags, hide  postal boxes,5 >>licence plates etc, and put up fake US equivalents.  >t* >What would the FBI be doing in Vancouver? >t >-- Alan >t >nP >===============================================================================1 > Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU1N > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056N > Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025P >=============================================================================== >   O ===============================================================================w0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056eM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025SO ===============================================================================l   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:35:01 -0400u0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E6948A3.AD5693E8@vl.videotron.ca>n   Don Sykes wrote:H > Well thank God it's the USA that has all the power. I can think of 100? > other countries which would not wield it as morally as we do.w  I You can wield your powers as you wish inside your borders. But you cannotuF abuse your powers outside your borders. Using your military without UN sanction is abuse of power.l  M Bribing countries to support your war wishes isn't very ethical either in thefK context of getting permission to destroy a country. If the actions that the M USA intends to do were right, there wouldn't be such an opposition to it, andt; the USA wouldn't have to bribe other countries for support.o  N And if the USA truly beleived in democracy, it would respect the wishes of the+ UN and not invade Iraq without UN approval.h  J Right now, the rest of the world understands that Bush is a moron, totallyH without international experience and with a very loud bark. He has to beK respected because the idiot has his finger on the button and can obliterateoH anyone he doesn't like.  So far, I think that the damage done by Bush JrL hasn't permanently been tagged to the USA. Folks hope Bush Jr is a temporaryD glitch in history and that the USA will return to normal in 2 years.  N However, there is a real danger that Bush Jr's attitudes may stick to the USA,L and that his successor will have a hell of a job undoing all the damage Bush( Jr will have done by the time he leaves.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:55:03 -0600m1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants' Message-ID: <3E695B87.256D6894@fsi.net>n   GreyCloud wrote: >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > >- > > John Vottero wrote:  > > >3< > > > "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote in message% > > > news:3E67C237.50100@MMaz.com...: > > > >e > > >n > > > [snip] > > >aN > > > > You know, if the planes had crashed into the Louvre, the Eiffel Tower,J > > > > Munich, Moscow, there would be a lot less of this 'bleeding heart'I > > > > crap!  The fact that for over ten years, Saddam's atrocities have N > > > > continued, these whiners would have us wait another ten years at whichP > > > > point, who knows when a nuke or biological will be detonated on domestic
 > > > > soil.o > > > > L > > > > Look back at history, WW I and WW II, it was us Yanks that saved theN > > > > Euro-ass from oppression and conquer.  Funny how what was good for oneO > > > > generation, country, and time period is no longer the right thing to doTL > > > > today, HA!  That's one thing about "Lib's," always a double standardJ > > > > because their standards (if you call it that) are never based on a; > > > > foundation or morality and unchanging principles...s > > > >n > > >fO > > > "based on a foundation [of] morality and unchanging principles"????  WhattP > > > the hell are you talking about?  In the 80's Ronald Reagan sold weapons ofP > > > mass destruction to Saddam!  You call that "unchanging principles"??  WhenL > > > Saddam used poison gas on his own people, Reagan virtually ignored the$ > > > atrocity, you call that moral? > >,E > > Reagan was nothing more than the White House's version of Charlie=J > > McCarthy (or Pinoccio): a puppet who danced as his handlers pulled the > > strings. > >  > " > I wonder who his handlers were??6 > But it does bring up a few questions, like why now??  G You mean why does this come up now? This came out years ago, during hisn& presidency, in fact. It's nothing new.  : > It makes one wonder what the real story is.  I doubt the > newsmedia version.  D Indeed, and since the old boy is lost to Alzheimer's, the world willA never know, and there's likely no "Zapruder(sp?) film" to debate.i   --   David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:56:05 -0600u1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants& Message-ID: <3E695BC5.E131D8B@fsi.net>   John Smith wrote:h > H > "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message7 > news:01KT8IWKIYFM9FQH4P@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com... ? > > > disagree.  You want to stop being a target for terrorism? B > > > sure the terrorists pay a price that excruciatingly painful.B > > > come back and do it again?  Make the pain even more painful. > > > get clued in eventually. > >oH > > I fail to see how this logic applies to a suicide terrorist (such asF > > those who attacked the WTC, the suicide bombers in Palestine etc). > H > Let's just call them what they are....murderers who don't care if they > die in the process.a  ( That's why I call them homicide bombers.   -- v David J. Dachterag dba DJE Systemsv http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/f   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:57:43 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>c: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants& Message-ID: <3E695C27.6DD522D@fsi.net>   Paddy O'Brien wrote: >  > Phillip Helbig wrote:t= > >>disagree.  You want to stop being a target for terrorism?s@ > >>sure the terrorists pay a price that excruciatingly painful.@ > >>come back and do it again?  Make the pain even more painful. > >>get clued in eventually. > >a > >fH > > I fail to see how this logic applies to a suicide terrorist (such asF > > those who attacked the WTC, the suicide bombers in Palestine etc). > D > Yep, not too many suicide terrorists get a chance for a second go. > F > Probably old, but one of these "bumper-sticker" things:  Why did the. > Japanese Kamikase pilots wear crash helmets?  F I don't think those were "crash" helmets as much as simply intended to, make flying those airborne coffins possible.   -- u David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemsv http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/:   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 22:27:17 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E695504.1FBC94F6@vl.videotron.ca>g  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:3 > >Why can't teh USa actually show original films ?y! > >       La Totale --> True Liese= > >       Trois hommes et un couffin --> three men and a baby R > >       La Cage aux Folles --> (oops, forgot the american knockoff) (Birdcage ?) > P > Because we're illiterates who don't speak French and who can't read subtitles.  N You'd be surprised how dubbing works. In Qubec, the government forced the bigN movie distributors to release the french version of movies at the same time asM english originals. The distributors cried foul. But guess what, ? Since then,nK they've been able to release both version "on-time" at the sime time as thea rest of north america.  J I have seen a few dubbed movies such as Star Wars etc with my nephew whoseO english isn't up to snuff yet and I was pleasantly surprised with the quality. e  + > What would the FBI be doing in Vancouver?r  L It could have been set in Vancouve with the RCMP doing the investigations ofJ the "X-files". But as Chris Carter noted in an interview, it wouldn't haveN worked in the USA, their target market because the USA expect all TV to appear to originate from the USA.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 22:44:19 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <u2qdnfCvYZmK-vSjXTWcoA@metrocast.net>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in messagem) news:3E695504.1FBC94F6@vl.videotron.ca... , > Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:   ...   - > > What would the FBI be doing in Vancouver?e >mK > It could have been set in Vancouve with the RCMP doing the investigationsd ofL > the "X-files". But as Chris Carter noted in an interview, it wouldn't haveI > worked in the USA, their target market because the USA expect all TV ton appear > to originate from the USA.  D You're really stretching on this one.  The show is aimed at the U.S.H audience, and is therefore about the FBI rather than the RCMP.  The onlyK reasons it's shot in Vancouver are presumably economic:  using a U.S. motifhG is entirely natural.  And there's no secret about where it's shot:  the I intent is not to make the show appear to *originate* in the U.S., but forc0 its action to appear to *take place* in the U.S.   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 01:08:50 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <Id-cnVA4ybVrFfSjXTWcqQ@metrocast.net>  2 "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message% news:3E69230B.BF22404D@pacbell.net...a >h >  > Bill Todd wrote: > > 6 > > "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message( > > news:3E69119D.ECEED45@pacbell.net...   ...n   > >  So it's not just thisJ > > > administration that ignores important parts of the Constitution, butB > > > every administration - Demo & Rep alike - for some 50 years. > >tH > > Leaving aside the *other* critical portions of the Constitution that thisL > > Administration has been ignoring with relish, as I noted above there areJ > > signifant areas of grey in the majority of examples you provided which do1 > > not pertain to the proposed invasion of Iraq.t > H > Nor do those *other* critical portions of the Constitution you mention+ > pertain to the proposed invasion of Iraq.h  C You opened the door to generalization about 'important parts of thehK Constitution' - I just observed that somewhat more of that document appears ? to be under siege by the current Administration than by others.a    But I say again your argumentsgI > are all basically semantical and contrived by those who never wanted to ! > face a declaration of war vote.t  F Only to varying degrees.  I'm not sure that Somalia qualified in *any*K manner, for example.  But I wouldn't take issue with a stance that requiredn- Congressional support for most of the others.    ...e  J > > Are you advocating that the Constitution be changed, or just followed? > > > Big, big question. A few years back (6-7) I wrote a sweeping8 > constitutional amendment that addresses just that (see) > http://alphase.com/newusa/newusa.html).e  F I'm afraid that what I admit is a cursory examination of your proposedB alternative only gives me greater respect for the original.  And IG emphatically disagree with your contention that it has become seriously H dated in any significant manner (I do have some doubts about whether anyL right to bear arms would have been included had a standing army been assumed3 to exist, but don't consider that a major problem).n   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 18:00:09 -0800$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>> Subject: RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Laugh your Butt Off0 Message-ID: <01C2E4D3.889E18D0@sulfer.icius.com>  H OK, I've decided life's too short for all this sh1at. This is already soE off topic I'm going to drop something else in. Here is some seriouslyTE funny and (mostly) original comedy from England. Not The Nine O'Clock4F News. If you're not familiar with it, expand your horizons. :-) Either5 way, laugh your butt off, and unwind for the weekend.5  . http://britcom.hispeed.com/notnews/sounds.html  E If anyone knows where I can find a soundbyte, video or script for theyF Constable Braithewaite (?) sketch ("Wearing a loud shirt in a built upD area? Possession of an offensive wife?") I'll be eternally grateful.  : There's several other shows on there, have a scout around.   Shanei     -----Original Message-----7 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca]s$ Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 4:35 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com.: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants     Shane Smith wrote:D > butt of countless comedy sketches. Even here. And America is not = exposedtC > to other cultures as much as other cultures are exposed to yours.e  3 Why can't teh USa actually show original films ?=20m 	La Totale --> True Lies4 	Trois hommes et un couffin --> three men and a babyF 	La Cage aux Folles --> (oops, forgot the american knockoff) (Birdcage ?) =09a There is a long list.l  : Has any american ever heard C=E9line Dion sing in French ?= Remember 99-luft-balons ? In the USA, it was 99 red balloons.d  G Why did Chris Carter have to spend so much money to make Vancouver looki likeH "anytown USA" ? Because he know that his X-files would never catch on in the F USA if they used Vancouver as the real city where the stories are set. So,nG whenever they shoot a scene, they drop all canadian flags, hide  postaln boxes,3 licence plates etc, and put up fake US equivalents.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 22:10:31 GMT46 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)2 Subject: Re: Probleme with Java and OpenVMS V7.3-14 Message-ID: <rN8aa.83842$AV5.1040018@news.chello.at>  k In article <cd1h6vc3ghqc5re3jg8ss3aubseogkigra@4ax.com>, Nigel Barker <nigel@removetomailme@hp.com> writes:uO >On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:44:42 +0100, Nigel Barker <nigel@removetomailme@hp.com>  >wrote:h >cL >>On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:16:25 GMT, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) >>wrote: >>N >>>Where PTHREAD is not listed in the JAVA doc as a requirement (but installedO >>>here anyway ;-) but ACRTL wants SYS-V0200 and that is dangerous/malicious...o >>>nK >>>Nigel: Do you have a recommendation for us on this JAVA/SYS-V0200 case ?p >>R >>Ahhh. SYS-V0200 not recommended for uniprocessor systems. The official answer isQ >>to wait for SYS-V0300 (out real soon now). The unofficial answer is that I havecN >>had it installed on my uniprocessor workstation for months without problems.  K Cause of your hint, I did install VMS731_SYS-V0200, too. And yes (just likeu< the VMS73_SYS-V0500 months ago) I have so far no problems...  6 >Just a reminder that SYS-V0300 has now been released.    And is installed since today ;-) Thanks a lot   -- h Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERs% Network and OpenVMS system specialistE E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 19:18:45 GMTc; From: "John Gemignani, Jr." <jon-nope@thiswontworkossc.net>i2 Subject: Re: Programmatic telnet taking forever!!!< Message-ID: <pg6aa.6390$J51.1314797@news1.news.adelphia.net>  8 "Joseph Norris" <jozefn@bolt.sonic.net> wrote in message? news:Pine.LNX.4.40.0303070755210.31983-100000@bolt.sonic.net...u >f > Group, > A > I have an application that logs into a vms box from a linux box-H > to run some vms programs... that's the short story. The longgggg story@ > is that the login takes about 30-45 seconds some times longer. > J > I begin to think that the vms box is waiting for me to give it somethingE > that will tell it that this is not a normal telnet session and thenlE > after a while it figures this is true and allows my script to logon ( > with proper user/password combination. > C > Can anyone tell me what it wants and what I have to pass to it toe > satisfy its need?o >k& > Thanks to all - from a total newbie. >b > = > #Joseph Norris (Perl - what else is there?/Linux/CGI/Mysql)nK > print @c=map chr $_+100,(6,17,15,16,-68,-3,10,11,16,4,1,14,-68,12,1,14,8, E > -68,4,-3,-1,7,1,14,-68,-26,11,15,1,12,4,-68,-22,11,14,14,5,15,-90);l >s >   J [The following is assuming that you are using TCP/IP Services as I have no; experience with other stacks, but the same ~may~ hold true]e  K I wouldn't connect via TELNET, I would connect via RLOGIN.  With TELNET theeH server is going to send you some options that it may or may not expect a9 response to, or make an assumption that they are correct.p  I With RLOGIN you can send a simple combination of strings after connectionrC and it can even do a proxy login for you if you have an entry setupiJ properly.  The response will be an error string which is NULL if the loginL succeeded (first byte will be NUL).  The only requirement (and this could beJ a problem) is that your originating port is less than 1024 for it to trust/ the information.  This will require privileges.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 15:39:44 -0400b0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>2 Subject: Re: Programmatic telnet taking forever!!!/ Message-ID: <3E68F56B.A4E81EA6@vl.videotron.ca>   C > > I have an application that logs into a vms box from a linux boxmJ > > to run some vms programs... that's the short story. The longgggg storyB > > is that the login takes about 30-45 seconds some times longer.  J VMS has a command "SET TERMINAL/INQUIRE" that is usually/often executed at1 login time to query the terminal characteristics.l  J VMS sends an escape sequence, if there is no response within X seconds, itM sends another escape sequence etc etc. And it takes a long time before it has N runned out of possibnle escape sequences and decides your terminal is unknown.  K After login, after the first ESC character you see, you can send a <CTRL>-Zs& which should end the SET TERM/INQUIRE.  F Alternatively, you can respond to the inquiries with proper responses.  R WWW.vt100.net should give you more information on possile inquiries and responses.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:26:47 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")2 Subject: Re: Programmatic telnet taking forever!!!6 Message-ID: <00A1C835.AAD829FF@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  b In article <3E68F56B.A4E81EA6@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:D >> > I have an application that logs into a vms box from a linux boxK >> > to run some vms programs... that's the short story. The longgggg story C >> > is that the login takes about 30-45 seconds some times longer.  > K >VMS has a command "SET TERMINAL/INQUIRE" that is usually/often executed ati2 >login time to query the terminal characteristics. > K >VMS sends an escape sequence, if there is no response within X seconds, itiN >sends another escape sequence etc etc. And it takes a long time before it hasO >runned out of possibnle escape sequences and decides your terminal is unknown.  > L >After login, after the first ESC character you see, you can send a <CTRL>-Z' >which should end the SET TERM/INQUIRE.U >aG >Alternatively, you can respond to the inquiries with proper responses.a  K This was the first thing I thought of in reading his post, but in the part UI you snipped it says (or strongly implies) that the hangup is _before_ thehC username/password dialogue, not after.  If that's true, this isn't y the problem.   -- Alano  O ===============================================================================h0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056aM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025sO ===============================================================================h   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:17:50 -0400-0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>2 Subject: Re: Programmatic telnet taking forever!!!/ Message-ID: <3E693692.3E27EE27@vl.videotron.ca>n  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:L > This was the first thing I thought of in reading his post, but in the partK > you snipped it says (or strongly implies) that the hangup is _before_ the D > username/password dialogue, not after.  If that's true, this isn't > the problem.    N Sorry, my ISP (whose days are numbered) has yet to post the original news item- (if ever) and I only saw the snippt I quoted.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:39:37 +0100e From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>% Subject: Re: Questions on SSH for VMS 2 Message-ID: <b4ashq$73e$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>  M I just got a message from Leo asking me to remove and reinstall the SSH kit, h& because this problem should not exist.  O He's right, because when I did a clean install on my home VMS system, all went rP well, and the /flag problem did not happen. So follow the extra instructions on ! the download page, and it works !l       Dirk Munk wrote:! > Thanks for the update info Leo.r > K > However you did not address the "/FLAG=TCPIP" problem that comes up when  % > trying to configure the SSH server.n > G > I installed the new executables expecting/hoping that it was resolve e$ > this problem too, but it does not. >  > Did I miss something ? > 
 > Regards, > Dirk >  > Leo Demers wrote:k > J >> Folks this will be up on the webpage shortly put it can't hurt to have  >> it in >> two places. >>
 >>   - Leo >> >> INSTALLATION NOTE:f >>F >> Corrections for Installing hp TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS SSHv2 EAK >> >> Description:  >>? >> After installing the SSHv2 EAK, perform the following steps:r >>K >> 1. The SSHv2 EAK kit fails to extract the updated templates text libraryv7 >> (TCPIP$TEMPLATES.TLB) from the kit. To correct this:p >>G >> a. Extract the updated template text library from the SSHv2 EAK kit:w >>C >> $ PRODUCT EXTRACT FILE TCPIP_SSH /SELECT=TCPIP$TEMPLATES.TLB_SSHc >>& >> b. Copy the templates text library: >>H >> $ COPY TCPIP$TEMPLATES.TLB_SSH SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]TCPIP$TEMPLATES.TLB >> >> >>I >> 2. The updated TCPIP$UCP.EXE image must be installed as a known image p	 >> beforetH >> any SSHv2 EAK components can be configured using the TCPIP$CONFIG.COM >> command procedure.h >>J >> To install the updated TCPIP$UCP.EXE image, choose one of the following >> methods:v >>; >>  On systems where network availability is not critical:  >>$ >> $ @SYS$STARTUP:TCPIP$SHUTDOWN.COM# >> $ @SYS$STARTUP:TCPIP$STARTUP.COM  >> >> orc >>7 >>  On systems where network availability is critical:h >>5 >> $ INSTALL REPLACE SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]TCPIP$UCP.EXEt5 >> $ INSTALL REPLACE SYS$COMMON:[SYSMSG]TCPIP$MSG.EXEf >> >> >> -- 
 >> Leo Demers # >> OpenVMS Security Product Managerh >> Leo_dot_Demers_at_HP_dot_COMe) >> <dittman@dittman.net> wrote in messagef4 >> news:kmt9a.27992$ES3.3388@nwrddc04.gnilink.net... >># >>> Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote:  >>> G >>>> If the PCSI kit is the same as we got this morning, then please bec >> >> >> advised thats >>F >>>> there are some small errors in the installation and configuration >> >> >> procedures. >>4 >>>> In the kit is a new version of the text library >> >># >> sys$library:TCPIP$TEMPLATES.TLB,s >>K >>>> it is named TCPIP$TEMPLATES.TLB_SSH. The installation procedure shoulde >> >> >> copy this >>L >>>> file as a new version to sys$library, but does not do so. You will have >> >> >> to- >>A >>>> extract the file from the PCSI kit by hand, and place it in Y >>>> sys$library.s >> >>
 >> Do this >>$ >>>> before trying to configure SSH. >>>  >>>eK >>> To clarify, extract TCPIP$TEMPLATES.TLB_SSH and place it in SYS$LIBRARYw >> >>
 >> renamed >> >>> to TCPIP$TEMPLATES.TLB >>>e >>> J >>>> The configuration routine of the server also contains a small error.  >>>> The >> >>
 >> service >>I >>>> SSH is defined (TCPIP SET SERVICE etc.) with the option /FLAG=TCPIP.I >> >> >> This option >>G >>>> is invalid. Define the service manually without this option beforen >> >> >> configuring >>% >>>> the SSH server, and all is well.e >>>0 >>>0D >>> I removed the /flag=tcpip from TCPIP$CONFIG.COM and that worked. >>> -- r >>> Eric Dittman >>> dittman@dittman.neto >> >> >> >> >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:57:37 -0500l' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdac8 Message-ID: <nbji6vg9jhkbu1iq3mq99j44mup295m40a@4ax.com>   Michael Thompson wrote:a  E So we just add the DTE20 emulation to SIMH and have it talk to a KL10 B emulator through IPC or a socket? Very cool, we could have 4 PDP11= emulators running RSX20F connected to a single KL10 emulator.t   John Sauter responded:  7 I don't believe you can have more than one RSX20F-based 8 PDP-11 on a KL10.  I recommend running the DN60 software on the other three.l%     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 15:02:38 -0500a! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>)K Subject: Re:THANKS ALL!! Anyone use a Compaq 20/40 dlt tape drive in a vax?r' Message-ID: <3E68FADE.353FB185@vcu.edu>   F Thanks to all for their responses and help. The general consensus is aH generous and resounding MAYBE... ;-)  so, it's well worth an adapter ...  $ I'll let you all know what happens..   Jim Agnew wrote: > J > Version 5.5-2 VMS  they say it's not supported til v7 or so, but if it'sH > a generic scsi tape, that works, that's enuf for me.. I just happen toE > have one laying around, and would like to see if it works before wec  > cought up for an adapter.. ;-) >  > Jimt >  > --H > "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship > of the Ring"   -- bF "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship of the Ring"   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 01:10:52 -0000; From: "Chris Townley" <news_ac@townleyc.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk>e5 Subject: UK Hobbyist seeks personality (for BA356-JC)r4 Message-ID: <b4b9rt$1cd$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>  ? DEC PSW 433-AU running VMS 7.3 with QLA1020a SCSI wide onboard.u  L Just inherited a few BA356-JC shelves. Then a few DS-RZ1-CF-VA 4.3 Gb drivesI and a few DS-RZ1DD-VW 9.1Gb drives. Sadly I felt I ought to hand back thee 18Gb drive to our sysadmin.   I However I need a personality module - I have managed to obtain a BA35X-MG J with two interfaces, but I gather this is 8 bit, whereas I gather I need aJ BA35X-MH for the wide interface. Anybody got any surplus in the UK, or anyJ idea where I can get one for a sensible price? I might even do a deal on a shelf...  I I tried e-mailing Island last week, but they havnt bothered to reply - ise David Turner on holiday?     -- Chris ) chris AT townleyc DOT demon DOT co DOT ukt   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 11:34:06 -0800t' From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya)h Subject: Re: unixe& Message-ID: <3e68f42e$1@news.ucsc.edu>  G In article <b4a38g$ec$21@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:i( >In article <3E687E2C.9825A3ED@ev1.net>,. >   Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote: >>Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:rJ >>>         Hmm - It's a scary thought that the PC and/or x86 architecture' >>> might one day induce fond memories.a   It's happening already.s  E >>Yeah, "fond memories" like two old war buddies remembering D-Day...  >> >But didn't we win that one?   At best a draw.r4 If you ever see the end of Kurosawa's Seven Samuari: 	The farmers won.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 16:55:35 -0500s* From: "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> Subject: Re: unixl; Message-ID: <pan.2003.03.07.21.55.33.499367@nospam.invalid>n  ; On Fri, 07 Mar 2003 16:24:14 +0000, Charles Richmond wrote:e   > "J. Clarke" wrote: >> s6 >> On Fri, 07 Mar 2003 11:43:05 +0000, jmfbahci wrote: >> t, >> > In article <3E687E2C.9825A3ED@ev1.net>,2 >> >    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote: >> >>Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> >>>: >> >>>        [snip...]        [snip...]         [snip...] >> >>>M >> >>>         Hmm - It's a scary thought that the PC and/or x86 architecturen* >> >>> might one day induce fond memories. >> >>>H >> >>Yeah, "fond memories" like two old war buddies remembering D-Day... >> >>   >> > But didn't we win that one? >> -J >> Yeah, but that's not a lot of consolation to the ones that are still on
 >> the beach.A >> N% > In Flanders fields the poppies blowp" > Between the crosses, row on row,% > That mark our place; and in the skyg' > The larks, still bravely singing, flyR# > Scarce heard amid the guns below.1@ >                                                               ! > We are the Dead. Short days ago ' > We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,A' > Loved and were loved, and now we lie,u > In Flanders fields. @ >                                                               # > Take up our quarrel with the foe: $ > To you from failing hands we throw& > The torch; be yours to hold it high.# > If ye break faith with us who diei) > We shall not sleep, though poppies grow  > In Flanders fields.p >  >        -- Wilfred Owen >  > G > Okay, so this is World War I, but there are "crosses row on row" near   > the beaches of Normandy too...   Amen. [emoticon sheds a tear]    -- d --John- Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot netm# (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)t   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 00:11:49 GMTi/ From: "Don Chiasson" <don_chiasson@notmail.com>i Subject: Re: unixsH Message-ID: <9zaaa.68776$em1.55307@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  6 "Charles Richmond" <richmond@ev1.net> wrote in message  news:3E68E364.538F677@ev1.net... > "J. Clarke" wrote: > >r7 > > On Fri, 07 Mar 2003 11:43:05 +0000, jmfbahci wrote:= > >=- > > > In article <3E687E2C.9825A3ED@ev1.net>,s3 > > >    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:I > > >>Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:o > > >>>P; > > >>>        [snip...]        [snip...]         [snip...]7 > >dH > > Yeah, but that's not a lot of consolation to the ones that are still on > > the beach. > >=% > In Flanders fields the poppies blow-" > Between the crosses, row on row,% > That mark our place; and in the skyT' > The larks, still bravely singing, flyp# > Scarce heard amid the guns below.l >r! > We are the Dead. Short days ago-' > We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,.' > Loved and were loved, and now we lie,L > In Flanders fields.n >n# > Take up our quarrel with the foe:n$ > To you from failing hands we throw& > The torch; be yours to hold it high.# > If ye break faith with us who diei) > We shall not sleep, though poppies grow  > In Flanders fields.o >y >        -- Wilfred Owen >r > G > Okay, so this is World War I, but there are "crosses row on row" neare  > the beaches of Normandy too... >  Owen is not the author.l  7 From http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/LostPoets/McCrae.htmlo  = "The name of John McCrae (1872-1918) may seem out of place infD the distinguished company of World War I poets, but he is rememberedD for what is probably the single best-known and popular poem from theD war, "In Flanders Fields." He was a Canadian physician and fought onB the Western Front in 1914, but was then transferred to the medical@ corps and assigned to a hospital in France. He died of pneumoniaF while on active duty in 1918. His volume of poetry, In Flanders Fields( and Other Poems, was published in 1919."   --Don  e-mail: it's not not, it's hot.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 03:05:01 GMTp) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>t Subject: Re: unixe' Message-ID: <3E697993.6852617F@ev1.net>h   Don Chiasson wrote:n > 8 > "Charles Richmond" <richmond@ev1.net> wrote in message" > news:3E68E364.538F677@ev1.net... > > 6 > >        [snip...]        [snip...]        [snip...] > >h' > > In Flanders fields the poppies blowh$ > > Between the crosses, row on row,' > > That mark our place; and in the skys) > > The larks, still bravely singing, fly % > > Scarce heard amid the guns below.e > >t# > > We are the Dead. Short days ago=) > > We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,=) > > Loved and were loved, and now we lie,T > > In Flanders fields.1 > >i% > > Take up our quarrel with the foe:S& > > To you from failing hands we throw( > > The torch; be yours to hold it high.% > > If ye break faith with us who die=+ > > We shall not sleep, though poppies grow= > > In Flanders fields.= > >  > >        -- Wilfred Owen > >= > >=I > > Okay, so this is World War I, but there are "crosses row on row" nearL" > > the beaches of Normandy too... > >o > Owen is not the author.  > 9 > From http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/LostPoets/McCrae.html9 > ? > "The name of John McCrae (1872-1918) may seem out of place in=F > the distinguished company of World War I poets, but he is rememberedF > for what is probably the single best-known and popular poem from theF > war, "In Flanders Fields." He was a Canadian physician and fought onD > the Western Front in 1914, but was then transferred to the medicalB > corps and assigned to a hospital in France. He died of pneumoniaH > while on active duty in 1918. His volume of poetry, In Flanders Fields* > and Other Poems, was published in 1919." > > Sorry, my bad... I found the "In Flanders Fields" reference onA a page that was about Wilfred Owen, and made the wrong inference.c9 Another good web page about this author and this poem is:u  2 	<http://www.geocities.com/~worldwar1/mccrae.html>  > I read that Wildred Owen died in the last days of World War I,< and from the death date (1918) of John McCrae, it looks like/ maybe he also died in the last days of the war.b   -- h? +-------------------------------------------------------------+m? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |q? +-------------------------------------------------------------+t   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 17:21:51 +1300t- From: Brian Boutel <brianNOSPAM@boutel.co.nz>a Subject: Re: unixi+ Message-ID: <3E696FDF.7020009@boutel.co.nz>n   Charles Richmond wrote:a   >> > % > In Flanders fields the poppies blowt" > Between the crosses, row on row,% > That mark our place; and in the skyt' > The larks, still bravely singing, flyn# > Scarce heard amid the guns below.e@ >                                                               ! > We are the Dead. Short days agoa' > We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,h' > Loved and were loved, and now we lie,. > In Flanders fields.-@ >                                                               # > Take up our quarrel with the foe:e$ > To you from failing hands we throw& > The torch; be yours to hold it high.# > If ye break faith with us who die ) > We shall not sleep, though poppies grow  > In Flanders fields.o >  >        -- Wilfred Owen     Actually, by John McCrae.t   --briane     -- e Brian Boutel   Wellington, New Zealand    Note the NOSPAM]   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 11:37:33 -0800,' From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya)w Subject: Re: VAX again: unix& Message-ID: <3e68f4fd$1@news.ucsc.edu>  G In article <b4a3je$ec$22@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:e' >In article <3e678c37$1@news.ucsc.edu>,e, >   eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:5 >>In article <8Sp2iWKTI3Mj@eisner.encompasserve.org>,c< >>Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.aspm.encompasserve.org> wrote:0 >>>   Never underestimate the impact of the VAX. >>True.sH >>However for leverage, the PDP-11, the PDP-8, and the PDP-1 on one handA >>and the PDP-6/PDP-10/DEC-20 had greater leverage in their time.d > A >I don't consider the 36-bit line to have had greater leverage.   C >I do consider that it had greater exposure.  Tens of thousands of e< >kiddies walking up to a terminal and using the system as if@ >it was his own personal machine.  How do you think Billyboy got> >his PC idea?  The minis gathered around the big iron to feed  >it what they collected.  2 Ah, but before Billy DEC had to get to that point.  " You are guys are easy to convince.D The tough guys are the big money people the DOE (ERDA/AEC) who stillG think they influence the computer industry with the Crays and the like.a2 Even the Russians know PCs are where the power is.  D The PDP-1 (minis, small address apce) really deserve to get a lot of credit (and the LINC).     ><snip interesting scifi idea>   Hooked you, didn't I?  8^)   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:00:00 GMTy" From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: VAX again: unix9 Message-ID: <Xns9337843DAF188falkarcabca@205.233.108.180>   , Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote in  news:3E687F50.49492892@ev1.net:    > Eugene Miya wrote: >> r6 >> In article <8Sp2iWKTI3Mj@eisner.encompasserve.org>,= >> Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.aspm.encompasserve.org> wrote:  >> > t4 >> >     [snip...]        [snip...]        [snip...] >> >@ >> >   Sadly, the VAX was also instrumental to the evolution andF >> >   popularity of UNIX.  Of those folks at Berkely hadn't ported it5 >> >   to a VAX the rest of might never have seen it!e >> iH >> Gee, others thought it was the failure of various DEC code word named. >> architectures to keep track of performance. >> HG >> I can see it now ... disgruntled VMS users build a cyborg Terminator@? >> and send it back in time to bump off a young Bill Joy or Bob 
 >> Fabry.... f >>A > I can see disgruntled PDP-10 and DEC-20 users building a cyborgl? > Terminator to go back and take out Palmer and Dave Cutler. Ofm  F Why not go for C.G.Bell who designed the VAX?  Ooops!  he designed theF PDP-10 also.  Why Palmer?  PDP-10 was ancient history before he joined DEC. W  > > course, maybe they could have talked JMF and TW into a more @ > healthful life style too!!! That would make it a double win!!! >        --  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca l@ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Road01                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canaday http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4O  http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 03:07:00 GMT:) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>e Subject: Re: VAX again: unix' Message-ID: <3E697A0A.34E734C0@ev1.net>i   Alfred Falk wrote: > . > Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote in! > news:3E687F50.49492892@ev1.net:. >  > > Eugene Miya wrote: > >>8 > >> In article <8Sp2iWKTI3Mj@eisner.encompasserve.org>,? > >> Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.aspm.encompasserve.org> wrote:c > >> >6 > >> >     [snip...]        [snip...]        [snip...] > >> >B > >> >   Sadly, the VAX was also instrumental to the evolution andH > >> >   popularity of UNIX.  Of those folks at Berkely hadn't ported it7 > >> >   to a VAX the rest of might never have seen it!s > >>J > >> Gee, others thought it was the failure of various DEC code word named0 > >> architectures to keep track of performance. > >>I > >> I can see it now ... disgruntled VMS users build a cyborg Terminator/A > >> and send it back in time to bump off a young Bill Joy or Bob0 > >> Fabry.... > >>C > > I can see disgruntled PDP-10 and DEC-20 users building a cyborgaA > > Terminator to go back and take out Palmer and Dave Cutler. Of6 > H > Why not go for C.G.Bell who designed the VAX?  Ooops!  he designed theH > PDP-10 also.  Why Palmer?  PDP-10 was ancient history before he joined > DEC. > E Because Cutler worked on VMS...and because Palmer was the "hired gun"g% that demolished the entire company...i     -- o? +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |b? +-------------------------------------------------------------+i   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 01:33:25 -0500 + From: michael tessman <matessman@yahoo.com>u: Subject: Re: VAXstation 4000 VLC VMS 5.5-2 Boot Parameters8 Message-ID: <8iui6v4av67geau0mon8bgjh62rpb0076m@4ax.com>  C thank you, all. i didn't have the values for the HALT parameter normC did i know about the S3 switch.  HALT was set to 2, but for reasonsrF unknown it wasn't booting upon power up.  i set HALT to 1, booted it a@ few times, then set it back to 2 and it seems to be fine.  after@ flipping the S3 switch, i can put away that huge monitor and the0 keyboard and mouse.  access via the lan is fine.   thank you, again...e   ...mike tessman   7 On Thu, 06 Mar 2003 21:20:34 -0600, "David J. Dachtera"- <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   >brandon@dalsemi.com wrote:B >> oK >> > Since you mention "mouse", I assume that OPA0 is the graphics monitor.aL >> > You can switch this to a serial terminal by flipping the "S3" switch (IF >> > think; I have some 4000s but not a VLC).  To avoid having to typeG >> > "boot", you need to specify another value of "halt" at the console. >> > prompt. >> dN >> I have both 4000 and 4000 VLC, I am curious about that too.  I guess I will' >> look at my VLC when I get to work...  > H >Likely then that both you and Michael have discovered the little switchB >next to the keyboard connector. Whatever its current position is,D >reverse it and connect a tube or PC to the MMJ on the back (9600, 8 >bits, no parity, 1 stop bit). >  >Per the VLC book, > ? >>>> SET HALT 1		Automatic restart (or reboot if can't restart)n >t! >>>> SET HALT 2		Automatic reboot  >n >>>> SET HALT 3		Automatic haltt >l) >>>> SHOW HALT		Display the current valuer   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 13:42:18 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>eP Subject: Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses/ Message-ID: <v6hq0arp3hhva0@news.supernews.com>d  6 "Gary Morin" <gary.morin@emergis.com> wrote in message7 news:4f886957.0303070634.3c205e92@posting.google.com...SB > I have a VAXStation 4000-90 that I use without the display tube.C > Every time I boot the box it reports a console level error on the H > graphics board.  Since I was tired of geeting the errors I removed theE > graphics card and when I rebooted all of the VMS licenses failed toh= > load.  When I selected the "license requirements" option innE > vmslicense.com it came back with a list that showed that no licenseeF > group is valid.  When I put the card back in everything loaded but I3 > still got the hardware boot error on the console.  >oD > Is there any switch or jumper that will tell this box that it is a7 > valid VAX system without the graphics card installed?  >o  L Without the graphics card, it's a VAXServer, not a VAXStation.  They're bothI valid VAX systems but you only have licenses for a VAXStation.  Your besti* bet is to keep the graphics card in there.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:01:36 +0100" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>P Subject: Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses6 Message-ID: <b4av6j$1tmvhr$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>  8 "Gary Morin" <gary.morin@emergis.com> schreef in bericht7 news:4f886957.0303070634.3c205e92@posting.google.com... B > I have a VAXStation 4000-90 that I use without the display tube.C > Every time I boot the box it reports a console level error on thepH > graphics board.  Since I was tired of geeting the errors I removed theE > graphics card and when I rebooted all of the VMS licenses failed tow= > load.  When I selected the "license requirements" option intE > vmslicense.com it came back with a list that showed that no license)F > group is valid.  When I put the card back in everything loaded but I3 > still got the hardware boot error on the console.h >rD > Is there any switch or jumper that will tell this box that it is a7 > valid VAX system without the graphics card installed?  >eK I had the same problem with a VAXstation 4000-90A. It had been unused for aaK couple of years when it was given to me. Dust krept in the contacts and thebK graphics card was not recognized. At that point the LMF utility has no idea8E what kind of hardware it was addressing. another poster wrote that it E reverst to a server, but that is not true. In that case it would load82 layered product PAK's and it won't do that either.  K You can disable the graphics controller with the small switch hidden behindh! the front panel. It is marked S3.TJ But the system won't auto boot and it will continue to log an error on the graphics controller.L If you want to autoboot or just get rid of the error, find out the specs forK a regular DEC display. I mean the input impedances for the RGB sockets. Rig D a small replacement circuit for Green on it and that might trick theI controller that a tube is present. It will boot fine afterwards and stillr think it's a VAXstation.   Hans   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 14:50:36 -0500, From: "Richard Whalen" <WhalenR@process.com>I Subject: Re: Want Multinet FTP listing to be 'ls -l' format to clients... + Message-ID: <b4at6e$4el$1@news.process.com>o  K The MultiNet FTP server will provide a Unix like format under the following  conditions:t< The logical MULTINET_FTP_DISALLOW_UNIX_STYLE is NOT defined. andc: The logical MULTINET_FTP_UNIX_STYLE_BY_DEFAULT is defined. or8 a CD command with a Unix style specification is entered.  L Note that Unix's response to 'ls -l' actually violates the FTP specificationJ (RFC 959) in that the argument to ls is supposed to be a file or directory specification.    4 "Chris Olive" <nospam@raytheon.com> wrote in message6 news:WA4aa.113$35.889@dfw-service2.ext.raytheon.com...I > I'm attempting to load a file from a VMS host into Emacs on my local PChI > using Ange-FTP mode in Emacs... (Briefly, for non-Emacs people, it's ane. > Emacs command that is essentially "LOAD FILEH > ftp://username:password@host/filename" just not quite in that format.) >rE > When I try to load the file into Emacs it croaks saying 'cannot get,I > listing for device'.  The FTP server on the VMS host is of the Multinet I > variety.  I am assuming that the Emacs Ange-FTP macro gets an FTP 'dir' J > listing, parses the listing, gets the file from the listing that I askedH > for, and loads it into my editor (via an FTP get).  I am also assumingJ > that the listing from the Multinet server, being in "VMS format" and notF > "Unix-like format" (ie. 'ls -l' format) is what is causing my error. >4F > So I'm wondering if there is a way to get the Multinet FTP server toG > present files in FTP listings in Unix format (ie. 'ls -l' formar) and G > not VMS format to FTP clients.  I'm guessing this will solve my EmacsmI > Ange-FTP loading problem.  I'm knee deep in Multinet documentation now,sC > but can't find anything.  If someone can help, I'd appreciate it.n >r > Chrisi > -----S
 > Chris Olive  > Systems Consultant) > Raytheon Technical Services Corporationh > Indianapolis, IN >>, > email: olivec(AT)indy(DOT)raytheon(DOT)com >o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 17:56:03 -0500! From: VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com>.' Subject: XP (ugh) and LK46W-A2 keyboard7K Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BD2@rlghncst964.usps.gov>e  6 I've got an NT driver from the HP website and it worksC just fine, but I've just been asked about these keyboards and XP...l  8 Is anyone out there using one of these on an XP machine?   ========================  William W. Webb - EMS Operations) OpenVMS Systems Support - USPS DSSC Annex,, 4730 Hargrove Road, Raleigh, NC 27616-2874  > 919.325.7500 x4186  <FirstInitialLastNameAtEmailDotUSPSDotGov>   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:34:58 +0100t6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>6 Subject: Re: [OT] After two months of SAP training :-() Message-ID: <3E68F462.8080501@vajhoej.dk>.   JF Mezei wrote:9 > Didier Morandi wrote:.E >>a) most of the modules are programmed by different teams who followfI >>different GUI rules (screens layouts, position of buttons, exit buttons " >>with different names, etc. etc.) > < > I knew SAP was bloated, but I had no idea is was that bad.  3 Why should SAP improve their stuff by simplifying ?i   People are buying it now !  = (same as why should Microsoft improve quality when people aref buying it as it is)n   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 20:33:37 +0100n6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>6 Subject: Re: [OT] After two months of SAP training :-() Message-ID: <3E68F411.2070408@vajhoej.dk>e   Dave Gudewicz wrote:M > I once heard the SAP = Stops All Production.  After reading what Didier had4& > to say, I'm beginning to believe it.  : SAP projects tend to be very painfull and very overbudget.  > Which you can also read as very profitable for the consultants doing the implementation !   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Mar 2003 20:27 CDT' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)E6 Subject: Re: [OT] After two months of SAP training :-(, Message-ID: <7MAR200320270311@gerg.tamu.edu>  d In article <3E68F462.8080501@vajhoej.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes... }JF Mezei wrote: }> Didier Morandi wrote:F }>>a) most of the modules are programmed by different teams who followJ }>>different GUI rules (screens layouts, position of buttons, exit buttons# }>>with different names, etc. etc.)o }> e= }> I knew SAP was bloated, but I had no idea is was that bad.r } 4 }Why should SAP improve their stuff by simplifying ? }  }People are buying it now !- } > }(same as why should Microsoft improve quality when people are }buying it as it is) }  }Arnej  D Not only are epople buying it, they are paying huge sums of money to be trained how to use it.   I If it was easy to use, the training money would disappear. So would a lotr of the consultants' money.  C There is pleny of reason for them to make it as complicated as theyu$ can, as long as people still buy it.   --- Carl   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.131 ************************