1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 08 Mar 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 132       Contents:- RE: (OT) After two months of SAP training :-( 2 Re: Blackmore comments on OpenVMS in Computerworld2 Re: Blackmore comments on OpenVMS in Computerworld2 Re: Blackmore comments on OpenVMS in Computerworld Re: C-Kermit 8.0.208 Re: Carly's feedback link  Re: Carly's feedback link  Re: Carly's feedback link  Re: Carly's feedback link  Re: Carly's feedback link  Re: Carly's feedback link / Re: DIFFERENT BLOCKSIZE FOR BACKUP AND RESTORE? ) Re: hp DECforms V3.3 Product Announcement 5 Re: Itanium "threw out all the good parts of the x86" / Re: Linus trashes Itanium - he's scared of VMS! / Re: Linus trashes Itanium - he's scared of VMS! F Re: Maximum Record Size Error, -RMS-F-MRS, invalid maximum record sizeF Re: Maximum Record Size Error, -RMS-F-MRS, invalid maximum record sizeF Re: Maximum Record Size Error, -RMS-F-MRS, invalid maximum record sizeA Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices) A Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices) A Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices) A Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices) A Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)  Re: MS Virus% Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants  Portmapping P Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: VAX again: unix  Re: VAX again: unix  Re: VAX again: unix < Re: VAXELN vs Posix Threads (Was: DECthreads problem on VAX)G Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses G Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses  Re: VMS Question??? 
 VMS/WSFTP?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 03 19:45:04 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) 6 Subject: RE: (OT) After two months of SAP training :-() Message-ID: <qbt1D17nq$1c@elias.decus.ch>   o In article <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BD1@rlghncst964.usps.gov>, VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com> writes:  >  >  > Dave Gudewicz wrote:J >> I once heard the SAP = Stops All Production.  After reading what Didier > had ' >> to say, I'm beginning to believe it.  > < > SAP projects tend to be very painfull and very overbudget. > @ > Which you can also read as very profitable for the consultants > doing the implementation ! >  > Arne >  > N > I once saw a post that said SAP was actually an acronym for a German phrase > > which was either "employment for life" or "income for life". > 4 > And for the life of me I can't find the reference. >   " I've found an official definition:  ) http://www.sapdesignguild.org/FAQ.ASP#sap   5 S = systems, A = applications, P = products, that is, - "Systems, Applications, and Products (in data < processing)." This name is based on the original German name? "Systeme, Anwendungen und Produkte (in der Datenverarbeitung)."    --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 04:46:37 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>; Subject: Re: Blackmore comments on OpenVMS in Computerworld 2 Message-ID: <CRqdnUKOS6ScIfSjXTWcqQ@metrocast.net>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ) news:3E6949EE.AA2B5000@vl.videotron.ca...  > John Vottero wrote: C > > "We are not planning to do anything else other than to continue 
 supportingK > > this environment...", is that good or bad?  Does he mean "we'll support  itD > > but that's all" or, does he mean "we're not planning any sort of
 retirement2 > > or migration, just full and complete support"? > 5 > The May 7th announcements reflected this mentality.  > I > Then, when things seemed to improve, I was blasted for not beleiving it  *yet*.L > Seems that once again, the same thing happened: when we shout loud enough,H > someone at HP does some token action to give us hope that things would change. - > Then, things slowly return to normal at HP.  > I > And the normal is that VMS will be maintained and upgraded for EXISTINg K > customers but it won't really be allowed to me marketed abnd compete head  to  > head against Unix and Windows.  J Er, the quote above doesn't say anything about upgrading, just supporting.J Now, one *could* interpret support as continued enhancement, but one could& also interpret it as maintenance only.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 14:44:01 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> ; Subject: Re: Blackmore comments on OpenVMS in Computerworld J Message-ID: <Rknaa.181562$UXa.160639@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  0 "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote in message) news:v6iagq811kaj01@news.supernews.com... A > Q: Where does OpenVMS fit in the overall scheme of things at HP  these days?  > D > A: It is already well on its way to being ported to IA-64. We will continueA > to support it on IA-64. It is a very special class of operating 
 system. We= > are not planning to do anything else other than to continue  supporting this E > environment, as well as the 450,000 users around the world that are  on this.F > So we are going to maintain it and make it run very well on Itanium. The D > same [is true] with the Non-Stop environment. It currently runs on the MIPS- > chip. It will be migrated to IA-64 as well.  >  >  > The full interview is at:  >  > F http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,791 58,00. > html?nas=PM-79158  > A > "We are not planning to do anything else other than to continue 
 supportingA > this environment...", is that good or bad?  Does he mean "we'll 
 support itB > but that's all" or, does he mean "we're not planning any sort of
 retirement0 > or migration, just full and complete support"?    E It probably means that HP will support it and develop it sufficiently F to milk the remaining customer base for as long as it is profitable to do so.  F But notice that he explicitly avoids mentioning that they are going toD advertise it, market it, 're-launch' it, expand its use, use it as aC key differentiator, position it as a Microsoft or unix substitute - B both of which are pale substitutes for VMS at the high end and notC very good choices in the middle ground either, or a myriad of other B tasks it is well suited for. He may as well have been explicit andC said that HP isn't going out of its way to get new customers for it  either.   D He said, "It is already well on its way to being ported to IA-64. WeC will continue to support it on IA-64. It is a very special class of D operating system. We are not planning to do anything else other thanE to continue supporting this environment, as well as the 450,000 users F around the world that are on this.  So we are going to maintain it and" make it run very well on Itanium."  E That sort of reminds me of another famous quote that turned out to be $ a lie, "Read my lips. No new taxes."    > He also said, "When it comes to middleware we had some assets,B Bluestone and so on, that had very small market shares. The marketF leaders were BEA with J2EE and WebLogic and, obviously, Microsoft withD .Net. So we decided to embrace those and retire our assets, which weF did. It was absolutely the right decision and customers applauded it."( Keep your eyes on what they do with VMS.  F And, "We see Linux as being absolutely strategic. We see growth in all> of the three standards, Windows, Linux and HP-UX, [which is] aC standard by default because it has got 32% of the Unix market."   I ? guess having 100% of the OpenVMS market isn't a 'standard'. ;-)     C But all the HP apologists will hurry to say, "At least he mentioned F VMS". Well, he was asked a direct question. Not to have answered it in8 some manner would have put the final nail in its coffin.  F And you think that HP could have booked some banner ads for VMS to run> on the same web page Blackmore's interview was published. Nah.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:45:38 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>; Subject: Re: Blackmore comments on OpenVMS in Computerworld . Message-ID: <3E6A101F.BD39EDA@vl.videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:L > Er, the quote above doesn't say anything about upgrading, just supporting.L > Now, one *could* interpret support as continued enhancement, but one could( > also interpret it as maintenance only.    M For as much as I distrust HP's intendtions with regards to growing VMS etc, I I think that they promises of continued imporvements to VMS are credible at # leats for the next couple of years.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 18:07:01 +0100 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> Subject: Re: C-Kermit 8.0.208 ) Message-ID: <3E6A2335.4040308@vajhoej.dk>    Jim Agnew wrote:  > Frank da Cruz wrote: J  >>Eased but not lifted.  This is why we are allowed to put the source outF  >>in the open, but not the binaries.  Previously we couldn't put the  sources 
  >>up either.   ; > interesting.. what the heck is the difference...????  ;-D  > . > shining example of government intelligence??  2 Well - the old rules prohibited sources being made1 available but allowed the source to be printed in  a book and exported.  . So the new rules are exactly as logical as the
 old rules.   :-)    Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 14:43:33 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback linkI Message-ID: <pknaa.181556$UXa.15985@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   5 "Dave Gudewicz" <dgudewicz@core.com> wrote in message ) news:v6hkm87srorv3a@corp.supernews.com... E > I took advantage of this opportunity and sent in my letter.  Got an , > automated reply, which is what I expected. > < > I used terms such as emphasis, flagship product, security,
 clustering to E > name a few wrt VMS.  I did not ask that VMS be put on prime time 30  or 60 F > second commercial spots.  IMO that would be money not well spent.  I can't A > imagine someone watching some reality show of late and actually : > perking/waking up when VMS was mentioned in any context.  C Shows like Nightly Business Report on PBS, Kudlow & Kramer on CNBC, @ and other similar shows are natural places to advertise to reach middle/senior management types    
 > And I don't D > remember ever seeing a MVS/HP-UX/Solaris/whatever type commercial. What IA > have seen were things like "we put the dot in the dot com." and 
 stuff like? > that.  That didn't make me run to the store and but one, btw.   A Since Sun IS Solaris or at least was when all the dot in dot bomb E commercial were running, they WERE in fact Solaris commercials. Every < time you hear/see an IBM commercial that mentions unix, it's1 AIX....ditto for HP. But no mention of VMS, ever.     F > I did ask that VMS get more attention in the broader IT marketplace.   Amen.       E -- The fact that most people are morons doesn't make VMS a bad OS and  UNIX a good one.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 14:44:02 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback linkI Message-ID: <Sknaa.181564$UXa.58341@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   > "Sue Skonetski" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> wrote in message7 news:857e9e41.0303071523.6394a275@posting.google.com...  > Dear Newsgroup,  > F > Just so you know.  I have heard that this "Carly link" is taken veryC > seriously.  I have found that the automated reply is used only to  let C > folks know that their message was recevied.  All the messages are B > reivewed by a team that Carly has in place, and action is taken. ThisB > is also a good place to send positive comments not just negative	 > issues.     D Engage in some serious effort in advertising and marketing VMS and IF assure you, carly's mailbox will light-up with compliments, gratitude,0 and messages of confidence in the future of VMS.  D You know the $1million it cost her to fly to Davos last month on theD corporate jet and hang out on the slopes for a week? I don't believeA for an instant that she brought more long-term benefit to HP than , spending that same money on advertising VMS.  D Find out if she knows how to get connected to comp.os.vms and invite her over for a chat.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 14:44:04 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback linkJ Message-ID: <Uknaa.181565$UXa.146356@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message F news:rdeininger-0703032112040001@user-105n97s.dialup.mindspring.com...E > In article <01KT8JASQGB69FQH4P@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip  Helbig- > <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:  >  > A > >Your enemies just have to do ONE THING to sabotage your dreams 	 entirely, E > >even if you produce some "commitments" from HP: bring in a witness  who D > >states "yeah, right, these same guys told me a few years ago that NT on D > >ALPHA was the future; we invested millions and are now orphaned". > B > I seriously doubt any customer ever "invested millions" in NT on Alpha.  E Certain governments did once you factor in storage. Don't forget that - unit prices on hardware was higher back then.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:08:04 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>" Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link/ Message-ID: <3E6A0753.8B7BA4EC@vl.videotron.ca>    Sue Skonetski wrote: >  >  I am justF > a worker here the engineers are really the ones that deserve a note.  M Sue, you deserve far more recognition than you are getting. Your contribution L to making VMS viable in the eyes of customers is far greater than you think.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:26:19 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>" Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link/ Message-ID: <3E6A0B99.20A1D9D9@vl.videotron.ca>   P > > > second commercial spots.  IMO that would be money not well spent.  I can'tE > > > imagine someone watching some reality show of late and actually K > > > perking/waking up when VMS was mentioned in any context.  And I don't H > > > remember ever seeing a MVS/HP-UX/Solaris/whatever type commercial.    M Buzzt. Sun had a TV commercials in prime time that were quite elaborate (star - wars style of ads, probably quite expensive).   L HP needs to tell the world that its product lineup is far greater now. In 30D seconds, it could provide a full list of its enterprise OS products.  L We have fault tolerant Tandem systems, our disaster tolerantVMS systems withI clustering versatility quality and security nobody can match, we have our M robust HP-UX for your enterprise unix applications, we also provide extensive N Linux support as well as window server systems. And we have hardware offeringsN that range from the world's fastest systems used to crack the human genome all& the way down to intel based solutions.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:00:15 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link' Message-ID: <3E6A219F.2900D92A@fsi.net>    John Smith wrote:  > [snip]F > Find out if she knows how to get connected to comp.os.vms and invite > her over for a chat.  ? I'm fairly certain "drawing a line in the sand" is not going to H effective, John. Unless you can find their greed button, intimidation is2 typically ineffective without sufficient leverage.  F I prefer winning without intimidation, myself. Greed is just a fact of9 life in a human world. I have no problem exploiting that.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 09:22:19 +0100 ) From: Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> 8 Subject: Re: DIFFERENT BLOCKSIZE FOR BACKUP AND RESTORE?6 Message-ID: <3e69a83b$0$49101$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>  E Two years ago I wrote a DCL script to make copies of BACKUP tapes to  F other tapes, using Save Set Manager. The hardware was a TL896 library H with brand new TZ89 drives and brand new DLT IV catridges. Most Backups I were volumesets (created by ABS) of two or three tapes. I have seen more  F than once that Save Set Manager reported recoverable errors. In other E words, errors were detected on the source tape, and corrected on the  I target. Apparently, the hardware's capability to catch and correct these  F errors was not sufficient. If we had used /NOCRC and /GROUP=0 for the 8 backups, we would not have known that there were errors.  C This is why I never will trust a backup without /CRC and /GROUP=>0.   	 Bart Zorn    Nic Clews wrote: > Kiasu Surfer wrote:  > Q >>I wonder if the different blocksize used for backup and restore would cause any ' >>data integrity problem after restore?  >>P >>I am considering using BLOCKSIZE of 61440 for my DLT IV tape as recommended byG >>Compaq FAQ web, but presently all my backup using BLOCKSIZE of 32256.  >>R >>If i were to change restore scripts, would restoration of the older backup tapesN >>be any problem? (OVMS 7.1 on Alpha, backup using /NOCRC /GROUP=0 parameters) >  > G > Bart is right to point out, particularly when you use the words "data J > integrity" while quoting a command that has "GROUP=0" and "NOCRC" in it,B > they are mutually exclusive. Having said that, modern DLT drivesF > typically do have hardware CRC, but without a verification pass, youB > could quite easily have written something totally unrecoverable. > I > One factor is that you would be unable to copy a saveset from tape onto G > disk, maximum size on disk is 32768 (ish) and to move savesets around H > you'll need Save Set Manager (layered product), assuming your tape was > readable.  > H > Sorry to sound so negative, but when you've been around long enough toI > find your cynicism in in computer hardware proved, you tend to approach G > jobs with care and caution, particularly when it isn't mine [data] to  > lose.  >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:17:45 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>2 Subject: Re: hp DECforms V3.3 Product Announcement- Message-ID: <1030308021102.943B@Ives.egh.com>   ! On Sat, 8 Mar 2003, Milton wrote:   J > On Fri, 7 Mar 2003 18:06:18 +0100, Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> wrote: > 7 > >"Sue Skonetski" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> wrote:  > > J > >> HP DECforms for OpenVMS is a software product for the development andK > >> deployment of forms-based user interfaces for interactive applications G > >> running on OpenVMS systems. DECforms V3.3 is a maintenance release K > >> demonstrating the OpenVMS commitment to product quality. DECforms V3.3 J > >> is available on the OpenVMS Alpha and VAX Q1  CY2003 software product > >> libraries.  > >>  S > >> DECforms Web Site: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/decforms/index.htm  > >>  
 > >> [...] > > ; > >According to http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/decforms.html F > >the current version of DECforms is V2.2 -- is V3.3 really the next / > >version or should that be read as "V2.3" ???  >  > According to: ? > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/commercial/webconnector/1000new.htm & > the current version is DECforms V3.2 > G > When a search is done for DECforms V3.3 in all of hp US or hp OpenVMS 3 > systems -> No results were found for your search.  >  > 	 > Cheers,  > Milton  C Received the March 2003 SPL today.  (OpenVMS Alpha Layered Products C Library Q1CY2003, according to the sticker on the spine of the box.   D The Master Index says it includes "hp DECforms for OpenVMS" (RunTimeB Development variations in about 5 different languages), all listed as version 3.3.   @ The Master Index for the documentation CD's says the same thing.   --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:56:59 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>> Subject: Re: Itanium "threw out all the good parts of the x86"2 Message-ID: <Qp2cnSdw5YbSP_SjXTWcoA@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:p4IcMhRTr7hD@eisner.encompasserve.org...    ...   ? > Oh there are a lot of myths and general rubbish out and about  > regarding Itanium/IPF.   Most of them promulgated by HP.   #   The fact that it has a tremendous A > amount of resources (256 physical registers for starters) gives   > the eggheads a lot of avenues.  K None of which, unfortunately, are going to be explored until at least 2006.    > 8 > It goes beyond "replay engines" all the downsides that* > kind of verbage hints at.  For instance: > @ > http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=512529.512544#FullText > H > Software-based speculative precomputation (SSP) is one such technique, proposed# > for multithreaded Itanium models.   D What 'multithreaded Itanium models', Rob?  Have you heard Intel evenH *suggest* when something like that might appear, or are you just hopefulG because Intel has published some blue-sky ponderings on how the feature ? might be used if anyone ever implemented it?  Remember that SMT L investigation began in the mid-'90s (possibly even earlier) and is only just! now appearing in the marketplace.    >  > [snip] > A > This paper presents a post-pass compilation tool for generating  SSP-enhancedJ > binaries. The tool is able to: (1) analyze a single-threaded application toI > generate prefetch threads; (2) identify and embed trigger points in the E > original binary; and (3) produce a new binary that has the prefetch  threads K > attached. The execution of the new binary spawns the speculative prefetch L > threads, which are executed concurrently with the main thread. Our resultsJ > indicate that for a set of pointer-intensive benchmarks, the prefetchingL > performed by the speculative threads achieves an average of 87% speedup on anA > in-order processor and 5% speedup on an out-of-order processor.  >  > > > pointer-chasing... i.e. databases, i.e. a tool Microsoft andA > Oracle will be VERY interested in applying to Itanium binaries.   K Perhaps - if and when the possibility appears some time rather late in this  decade.    > < > There are two markets that Itanium (to me at least) should@ > make large impacts in (in the next 2-5 years).  floating point > and databases.  H Since the *absolute earliest* something like SSP could appear is 3 yearsK from now, I'd say your time-table might be just a tad optimistic for seeing H any impact in the database area.  But FP is already Itanic's (sole) realK strength, at least when power isn't a consideration, so some impact in that ' limited market is reasonable to expect.   0   That doesn't leave much out.  SpecInt markets? > B > In other words, Itanium is poised/targetted (and research poured* > into areas) at the money making markets.  I Of course, Itanic has been so poised since 1994.  What remains to be seen C (now that it at least finally exists) is whether it gets *adopted*.    - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:39:50 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>8 Subject: Re: Linus trashes Itanium - he's scared of VMS!2 Message-ID: <ecGdneEwDrzXA_SjXTWcow@metrocast.net>  K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> 9 wrote in message news:3E687FF9.8090808@nospamn.sun.com...  >  >  > Bill Todd wrote:' > > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" ' <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> = > > wrote in message news:3E676E7F.9000201@nospamn.sun.com...  > >  > >> > >>Bill Todd wrote: > >>( > >>>"Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" > >>+ > > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>  > > > > >>>wrote in message news:3E65EBAF.9030805@nospamn.sun.com... > >> > >  > > ...  > >  > > J > >>>>Well no not quite, implimenting Itanium 2 in a 130 nanometer process0 > >>>>should decrease the die size to ~314 mm^2. > >>>  > >>> L > >>>There's no need to guess in this matter:  Intel has already stated thatE > >>>Madison's die area is 374 mm^2.  That, however, includes 6 MB of  on-chip  > >> > > L3 > > L > >>>cache compared with McKinley's 3 MB:  since the cache consumes about 35J > >>>mm^2/MB, if McKinley were shrunk to 130 nm its die area would thus be > >>	 > > about  > >  > >>>269 mm^2. > >>>  > >>% > >>I am guessing just as much as you  > >  > > B > > No, you're guessing (incorrectly), while I'm reporting Intel's
 statements > > about its own chip.  > >  > ? > So you are, but the chip you are refering to isn't Itanium II < > so you are still just guessing on the basis of a different+ > IPF chip with more cache and core tweaks.   I Madison is McKinley, with a process-shrink (and increased clock rate) and L twice as much cache.  No other substantive changes.  The only possibility isJ that Madison with only 3 MB of on-chip cache might even be a bit *smaller*E than the 266 - 269 mm^2 that I calculated, because with less cache to > accommodate a more efficient overall layout might be possible.   >  >  > >  however as the basis of > > H > >>my guess I used the die shrink ratios for Xeon/P4 as they moved fromE > >>180 to 130 nanometer the same start and end process as the one we H > >>are discussing. Without anything else to go on its easily as good asH > >>trying to guess how much the cache shrinks relative to the core whenI > >>you move from a larger process to a smaller process which is what you  > >>seem to be trying to do. > >  > > L > > No, it is not.  Intel has stated the size of Madison, and it's 374 mm^2.H > > Intel has stated that 57% of its die area is consumed by its 6 MB of cache,D > > which works out to 35.5 mm^2/MB (I rounded this down to 35 to beC > > conservative, since the percentage is only given to 2 digits of 	 precision L > > anyway).  From those two figures, it's only a *very* small extrapolation toJ > > the size that McKinley would be in 130 nm:  266 - 269 mm^2 - in markedI > > contrast to your guess based on a completely different product with a ; > > completely different cache/non-cache ratio on the chip.  > >  > 7 > Its a different chip, how many times do you need this  > repeating.  J As noted above, it's the same design.  So it's effectively McKinley in 130 nm, save for the added cache.   -  So the relationship between Madison die size 7 > in 130 nanometer and Itanium II die size if it was to 9 > be built in 130 nanometer is just a guess on your part.  > ; > Don't dress it up with sience Bill there isn't any there.    Idiot.   >  >  > >  > > < > >>You also make the huge and risky assumption that say two8 > >>die sizes with an area of say 131 mm^2 result in the9 > >>same number of dies per wafer, they don't because not $ > >>all dies have the same geometry. > >  > > L > > You're either very confused or spinning again.  While you've been trying toD > > muddy the waters by changing the discussion to yields, I've said	 *nothing* H > > about that, just corrected your erroneous assertions about die size. > >  > A > No I am not, where in the above paragraph do I refer to yields.   H Sorry - substitute 'dice per wafer' for 'yields' (you spoke about yieldsL elsewhere, and both topics were equally irrelevant to my comments about your original error).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:37:41 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>8 Subject: Re: Linus trashes Itanium - he's scared of VMS!/ Message-ID: <3E6A0E42.2A2F11E8@vl.videotron.ca>    Bill Todd wrote:J > Sorry - substitute 'dice per wafer' for 'yields' (you spoke about yieldsN > elsewhere, and both topics were equally irrelevant to my comments about your > original error).  M Or as a former Digital employee has put it when providing convincing evidence  that IA64 was flawed:   L The greater the size of each CPU, the greater the odds of having a defect in% the chip, hence the lower the yields.   N On the 8086, they might be able to extract x% of the 3ghz capable (no defects)K and y% capable of 1ghz, and sell the rest at 500mhz or whatever they can be J rated as. But for IA64, because the market isn't big enough, the ones withE flaws don't really have a market and hence don't generate any revenu.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 03:39:13 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>O Subject: Re: Maximum Record Size Error, -RMS-F-MRS, invalid maximum record size 2 Message-ID: <yGSdnT6FCOqpMfSjXTWcqA@metrocast.net>  + <briggs@encompasserve.org> wrote in message - news:vEbrfvR6soi2@eisner.encompasserve.org... @ > In article <3-ednenAcM7_nPWjXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:K > > No, it won't.  However, as noted above if your file is extended in very G > > small fragments you'll reduce space waste *outside* the RMS buckets  (unless L > > RMS-32 will combine left-over space less than a full bucket in size from a H > > previous allocation with the new allocation, though since this would9 > > fragment buckets internally it may well not do that).  > - > How would this fragment buckets internally?   L In your example below, consider the fact that while VMS does a pretty decentH job of trying to keep files contiguous on disk it's still quite possibleL that your new extent (VBNs 103 - 204), while likely contiguous *internally*,H won't be physically adjacent to (logically contiguous with) VBNs 1 - 102C (e.g., if some allocation for another file occurred between the two K allocations for your file).  If a bucket was created out of VBNs 101 - 110, + it would then not be internally contiguous.    > C > Suppose a bucket size of 10 and a cluster size of 3 and an extend  > size of 100. > H > The file needs to grow.  RMS tries to allocate 100 blocks and gets 102 > 7 > The file now has 102 blocks allocated and 10 buckets.  > E > The file grows again.  RMS tries to allocate 100 more blocks (or 98 ; > depending on implementation details) and gets 102 (or 99)  > @ > The file now has 204 (or 201) blocks allocated and 20 buckets. > < > I would not expect an internal hole at VBN 101-102 between@ > bucket 10 at VBN 91-100 and bucket 11 at VBN 103-112.  I would/ > expect bucket 11 to be placed at VBN 101-110.  > A > But perhaps the full situation (multiple areas, multiple bucket B > sizes and placement requests) is complex enough so that internal# > fragmentation is indeed an issue.   D Exactly.  At least that's how it worked in RMS-11, and IIRC the area, descriptor use didn't change much in RMS-32.  H The way it worked was that when an area (typically, the only area in theK file) lacked sufficient space to satisfy the current bucket allocation, new D space was allocated from the file system and any left-over space (byL definition less than a bucket in size) at the end of the previous allocationJ was not used.  The reason was that in multi-area files the next allocationL in an area will not necessarily be virtually contiguous with the current oneI (in your example above, the next allocation for the area using VBNs up to J 102 might be VBNs 307 - 408 rather than 103 - 204).  It would of course beF possible to special-case situations in which the next allocation *was*L virtually contiguous with the existing one (RMS-11 didn't do this), but thatJ would potentially fragment any bucket crossing an extent boundary as noted above.   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 04:02:06 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>O Subject: Re: Maximum Record Size Error, -RMS-F-MRS, invalid maximum record size 2 Message-ID: <pv2dnYRx8ocPLPSjXTWcpg@metrocast.net>  < "Lonnie Blevins" <lblevins@regenstrief.org> wrote in message) news:b4aegg$r8$1@hood.uits.indiana.edu...C   ...O  J > However, RMS will force the size of the AREAs within a file to be both aA > multiple of the BUCKET_SIZE and a multiple of the CLUSTER_SIZE.n  K It will certainly force the extents in an area to be a multiple of the diskeI cluster size, because that's how they'll get allocated by the file systemaI (unless multiple areas are allocated in a single request at file creationuK time; the prologue blocks IIRC come out of Area 0, so the net space left in F that area may not be a multiple of the clustersize).  But I doubt thatK they'll be forced also to be a multiple of the bucket size, if only becauseC4 there may be multiple bucket sizes in a single area.   ...t  L > I do not remember if AREA EXTENSION sizes are also adjusted automatically.  J The actual sizes of extensions should be, again because that's the way theJ underlying file system allocates space.  But the extension values recordedK in the prologue (to control extensions when they occur) probably should not[K be changed to reflect the disk cluster size, just in case the file is latera= copied in block mode to a disk with a different cluster size.p  L > However, I do not think any internal file space gets wasted based on those > sizes.  $ Yes, it can be - see other response.  D   The only wasted space comes from fitting the records inside of the) > buffers with the specified BUFFER_SIZE.o  ) Did you mean 'buckets' and 'BUCKET_SIZE'?o   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 04:17:23 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>O Subject: Re: Maximum Record Size Error, -RMS-F-MRS, invalid maximum record sizea2 Message-ID: <9qqdnSC-ysG6KPSjXTWcrg@metrocast.net>  D "Daryl Jones" <jones.computer.srv@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message6 news:8a646952.0303071237.b0122b7@posting.google.com..., > Bill Todd, John Biggs, and Lonnie Blevins: > F > I stand corrected on the statement of "This will reduce wasted spaceH > inside the RMS bucket." I was wrong. What I meant to say is "This will/ > reduce wasted space inside the Disk Cluster."1 >AH > Since a Disk Cluster is the smallest unit of disk space allocated to aF > file or file structure, one RMS Bucket will be mapped to one or moreH > Disk Cluster. Making the RMS bucket an integral number of Disk Cluster4 > has nothing to do with small extensions of a file!  J I'm afraid it does.  Since any left-over space smaller than a bucket in anF area will be wasted (certainly if the next extent in the bucket is notD virtually contiguous with it, and perhaps always, as described in myL response to John Briggs), then (to pick an extreme case) if your bucket sizeL is 5 and your cluster size is 9, and you extend the file only one cluster atH a time, you may waste close to half the space in the file - whereas withJ reasonably large extensions you'll waste only at most the last 4 blocks of each extent.    Making the RMSlE > bucket an integral number of a Disk Clusters will reduce disk space  > being wasted.c  J But only by a negligible amount as long as your extensions are much larger than your buckets.  5  Let say the RMS Bucket size is 2 blocks and the Disk D > Cluster size is 3. That means only 2 out of the 3 blocks of a diskE > cluster will only contain data. The other block will be empty.  TheiG > other case is to make the RMS Bucket a size of 5 blocks, then it willmH > take two Disk Clusters to hold one RMS bucket leaving one block in the > cluster wasted.e  K As already noted, the above is true only if you extend your file in minimal/J increments:  with reasonable extension values the waste is negligible (see also John Santos' reply).d   >(F > By making the RMS bucket size be 3,6,9, etc (integral number of DiskH > Cluster size), the RMS bucket will fit into one or more disk clusters.E > There is one problem, making a RMS bucket size larger than one disk4< > cluster size could cause the bucket to be stored on a diskH > non-sequential, thus causing a Split I/O for the retrieval for one RMSG > Bucket. This caused by the ISAM file being externally fragmented overo > the disk.e  C This is possible, but probably unlikely (except if buckets are everoK allocated spanning across one allocated extension to the next, as discussed H elsewhere):  I suspect that each extension is performed 'contiguous bestK effort' (if that's the precise term) such that it and any buckets within itgJ (regardless of how many clusters they contain) will normally be internally contiguous.a  6   This is not the same as a RMS Bucket Split, which isH > internal fragmentation, which will cause multiple I/O requests for one
 > RMS Bucket.t  D RMS bucket splits have nothing to do with fragmentation, internal orL external (though after a simple split each new bucket will of course be onlyK about half full).  And while it's possible for a bucket to be fragmented onVK disk (as described above) such that multiple I/O operations are required toa* access it, it is probably pretty unlikely.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 08:26:05 -0600g From: brandon@dalsemi.comoJ Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)1 Message-ID: <03030808260589@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>    Not to change the subject,6 however I migrated from TCPWARE to TCPIP V5.0A - ECO 3  L The problems I ran into were centered around the method of configuration and setup and NFS differences.  N I am also familiar with some problems that a large video retailer had with the- IP stack and ended up with TCPWARE.  I think.a  L Regardless of the problems, I found that we were able to overcome the issuesG and have a stable platform and it works for me.  Your mileage may vary.e     John Brandon VMS Systems Administrators Dallas Semiconductor john.brandon@dalsemi.com 972.371.4172 wkt 972.371.4003 fx    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:19:35 -0400n0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>J Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices). Message-ID: <3E6A0A05.775E56D@vl.videotron.ca>  L > >> For starters, a simple search of the command tables shows that MultinetM > >> provides some twenty-one(21) separate DCL verbs, while UCX provides onlyp > >> thirteen(13).  ) TCPIP Service 5.3 provides over 40. Check1H sys$manager:tcpip$define_commands.com and this is on top of the commands( defined in the DCL tables such as TCPIP.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:03:26 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>lJ Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)' Message-ID: <3E6A225E.6FFF83B4@fsi.net>s   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3E69587F.FEEE3DB3@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >>` > >> In article <3E680D35.8E7C0041@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: > >> > Dave Gabele wrote:o > >> >> [snip]M > >> >> Has anyone else experienced this or other issues moving from Multineth > >> >> to TCP/IP Services?  > >> >9 > >> > IMO, moving away from Multinet is not recommended.t > >> >( > >> > A good example of why is like so: > >> >N > >> > If you have system running Mutlinet and another running UCX (nka TCP/IPH > >> > Services for OpenVMS), install the VERB freeware and see how many* > >> > commands Multinet installs vs. UCX. > >>L > >> You seem to assume that everyone will analyze the results with the sameH > >> value judgements. I think you should be more explicit in your post. > >r! > > I was. You snipped that part:i > >o > > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > >> [snip] L > >> I did a comparison of this last year. If I can find the e-mail at work,D > >> I'll forward it to myself at home and post the good parts here. > G > You still haven't explicitly stated your value judgements.  Pick one:t > , >         A. More installed commands is good- >         B. Fewer installed commands is goods  E See the other post. Besides, I'm here to make value judgements alone.sG Let the reader assess the available functionality for each product, andp decide for themselves.   --   David J. DachteraM dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:04:42 -0600x1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>rJ Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)' Message-ID: <3E6A22AA.F40C8285@fsi.net>e   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3E695A6A.FDE8B11F@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > 0 > >> ... here is a brief list of shortcomings inN > >> "TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS", hereinafter referred to by its former (andN > >> shorter) name, "UCX". Multinet still gets my vote - UCX has a *LONG*(!!!)5 > >> way to go to reach feature parity with Multinet.a > >>L > >> For starters, a simple search of the command tables shows that MultinetM > >> provides some twenty-one(21) separate DCL verbs, while UCX provides onlyu > >> thirteen(13). > H > I don't think the number of commands is relevant in such a comparison.  F If they were all synonyms for UCX followed by some keyword, that might7 be true. Clearly, however, more is better in this case.   * > >> UCX does not provide spooled devices. > F > Not providing features is different.  But commands like START, STOP,G > CONFIGURE, etc. might apply to a large or a small number of features.m   See the comment above.   -- < David J. Dachterau dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:17:28 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>eJ Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)' Message-ID: <3E6A25A8.BDDDC62D@fsi.net>h   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > [snip]G > See the other post. Besides, I'm here to make value judgements alone.lI > Let the reader assess the available functionality for each product, ands > decide for themselves.  - Naturally, should have read "...not here...".-   -- - David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systems: http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 18:12:54 +0100z6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> Subject: Re: MS Virusm) Message-ID: <3E6A2496.5030104@vajhoej.dk>y   VAXman- wrote:a > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMENGGLAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:fF >>There was a post the other day about a virus masquerading as a patchJ >>from Microsoft.  Just got it here.  If I don't recognize mail, I read it> >>with vms mail, otherwise Outlook.  Here's what it looks like > G > There's a difference between a Micro$oft patch and a Micro$oft virus?u  / A bigger fraction of MS patches are malicious !i   :-)t   Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 14:43:58 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> . Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)J Message-ID: <Oknaa.181561$UXa.108785@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0303071022.39555917@posting.google.com...h> > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message" news:<3E680A69.613C559@fsi.net>...F > > I am seriously considering offering a $1,000(US) cash reward for aC > > verifiable citation of a publication name, date and page numbert where an6 > > OpenVMS ad appeared anytime in the last 18 months. >tD > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ad/ shows 3 ads (they're forD > Alphaservers, but include OpenVMS along with Tru64 in the ad text)* > which have appeared in Fortune magazine.     Nice try Keith.a  D "This circulation wrap accompanies a limited number of complimentary$ subscriptions from Hewlett Packard."  E What was/were the run date(s) for this? Who were the selected FortuneeF readers who got the cover wrapper editions? Exisiting VMS customers orF customers you'd LIKE to have on VMS? The way it is written leads me toB believe that it was sent only to existing customers.How many timesF during the life of the complementary subscriptions will HP run VMS adsD in the version of Fortune available on the newstands and sent to ALL Fortune subscribers?    ) Let's examing the .pdf ads one at a time.h  % hp is committed to Alpha systems .pdfv' --------------------------------------- @ This isn't a VMS ad per se...it's a 'thing' that mentions VMS inB passing, much like all the trade rags mention VMS in passing theseC days. In the ads it says contact your nearest HP rep for more info.nD The average nearest HP rep knows about toner and ink cartridges, notD VMS. What a collossal waste of time to contact an average HP rep. HPD should have had an 800 number direct to the VMS sales hotline, whichE would then get a VMS qualified body (Ambassador)  to walk over to thet customer's office.  A Also interesting to note that Tru64, the o/s that is being killed-A outright (as if VMS isn't dying a slow death), is the o/s that isoC mentioned *ahead* of VMS in the  .pdf's. I guess VMS will always be1! the poor cousin of the HP family.t      # hp's portfolio of applications .pdfd! ---------------------------------eE It looks like this one was from mid 2002. A better ad, but neither of.> your ISV quotes, BEA and BMC, mention VMS by name. Where's theE confidence? Their comments read more like what they'd say in an Intel / ad rather than what should be said in a VMS ad.        hp has the vision .pdf ---------------------p?  From mid-2002. A better ad than the last one, but clearly onlys targetted at existing users.    B So, where are the VMS ads that have run since July 2002? That's atB least 9 months without any. And remember that what was run in July. 2002 was only to a very select few recipients.  3 Where are the full pages of advertising in the WSJ?a    A When you go to www.hp.com/go/fortune_ad one sees Northern Lights, B which is now bankrupt, and Celera Genomics which has switched fromE Alpha. That's 2 fewer customers for a business that can ill afford toC	 lose any.b  B Each of the success stories below the 'Tell Me More' button is forF Tru64, not VMS - Northern Light doesn't count because they're dead andA your good friends at IBM and Sun could just as easily paint it astD though they're dead BECAUSE they used VMS - lots of stupid customers  in the world would believe that.      ? Let's now look at the other links in the middle of the page....a  F Under the Supply Chain Management link, we get SAP - which doesn't run on VMS.R  B Under Oracle Solutions link, one must hunt for any mention of VMS.  D Under Disaster Tolerance, there is a visible link for VMS (score one for VMS visibility).  $ Under eCRM, no visible VMS presence.  ? Under Alpha to Itanium, score another point for VMS visibility.n  B Under Tru64 Unix Clusters, well we really didn't expect to see VMS
 there anyway.w  E Under Enterprise Storage, that's a generic category for all platformsm  and o/s. Score this one neutral.  8 Under Server Consolidation, we should see VMS somewhere.    - All in all, the score is: Pathetic 28, VMS 4.r VMS doesn't make the playoffs.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 16:25:01 +0100$ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>. Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)+ Message-ID: <00A1C917.BB7225EF.46@decus.de>   2 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   > Keith Parris wrote:s > > c > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E680A69.613C559@fsi.net>...oH > > > I am seriously considering offering a $1,000(US) cash reward for aN > > > verifiable citation of a publication name, date and page number where an8 > > > OpenVMS ad appeared anytime in the last 18 months. > > F > > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ad/ shows 3 ads (they're forF > > Alphaservers, but include OpenVMS along with Tru64 in the ad text), > > which have appeared in Fortune magazine. > H > Is there anyway to get the .PDFs without having to display them first?  : Well, not knowing the system and browser you are using ...  C With Mozilla (V1.2.1 DE on W2k) you can click on the link with the rI _right-hand_ mouse button to open the context menu and then select "save  F link to local file" (or something like that, just translated from the 
 german text).r   Michael    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:16:38 -0400:0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>. Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)/ Message-ID: <3E6A0955.C5560EDF@vl.videotron.ca>a   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:F > > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ad/ shows 3 ads (they're for    H > Is there anyway to get the .PDFs without having to display them first?    P After doing the usual "view source" to find out what they really want you to do:  J http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ad/download/fortune_wrap_hp_apps.pdfL http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ad/download/fortune_wrap_hp_vision.pdfL http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ad/download/fortune_wrap_hp_commit.pdf  H The idiots go through hoops and loops to open a new window and a simple   V <a href="[url]" target="_blank">view ad</a> would do the trick without any javascript.  J And that is part of the HTML standard. Besides, when you open a new windowL with javascript, most site designers don't bother to specify all the optionsL and the opened window is crippled with no menu options etc etc. So I have toL "get page info" to extract its url, close that window, manually create a new3 window with all the options and then paste the url.   B Why do web deisgners work so hard to make our lives so difficult ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 10:43:47 -0600f1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>,. Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)' Message-ID: <3E6A1DC3.787942C9@fsi.net>p   JF Mezei wrote:P > [snip]D > Why do web deisgners work so hard to make our lives so difficult ?  F More likely, they work so hard to justify the investment in front pageB and/or other bloatware to make up for a total lack of HTML skills.   --   David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 10:55:07 -0600f1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>6. Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)' Message-ID: <3E6A206B.2FBD001E@fsi.net>s   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > Keith Parris wrote:s > >ac > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E680A69.613C559@fsi.net>...,H > > > I am seriously considering offering a $1,000(US) cash reward for aN > > > verifiable citation of a publication name, date and page number where an8 > > > OpenVMS ad appeared anytime in the last 18 months. > >>F > > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ad/ shows 3 ads (they're forF > > Alphaservers, but include OpenVMS along with Tru64 in the ad text), > > which have appeared in Fortune magazine. >   > Dates and page numbers please?  H D'ya ever notice how consistently folks fall silent when I ask for those items?   Speaks volumes, eh?t  H *THAT* is why I'm considering offering a cash reward for such info. If IH were to win the Lottery (the Multi-state "Mega Millions" was $28 millionE last night, IIRC), I'd offer a substantial bounty to put some seriouso3 pressure on the hand-sitters at OpenVMS Marketing. n  H ...and I'd post notice of it to Carly's comments page. Imagine a privateG party offering a $1 million bounty for a verifiable sighting of OpenVMScE advertising in a mainstream trade rag. I'd bet *THAT* would get their0
 attention!  / Greed will corrupt as surely as absolute power.f   --   David J. Dachteral dba DJE Systemsv http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 12:39:26 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>. Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)/ Message-ID: <3E6A1CB7.C474942F@vl.videotron.ca>    "David J. Dachtera" wrote:J > *THAT* is why I'm considering offering a cash reward for such info. If IJ > were to win the Lottery (the Multi-state "Mega Millions" was $28 millionG > last night, IIRC), I'd offer a substantial bounty to put some serious 4 > pressure on the hand-sitters at OpenVMS Marketing.  N Actually, how would HP react if someone were to pay for a VMS advertisement inD the wall street journal, one which also clearly states how HP is notM leveraging an asset which could be quite profitable and give HP a distinctived edge over competitors ?>  N If HP were then to counter with a lawsuit, that publicity would againt put VMS' in the limelight and make HP look bad. b  # Either way, VMS would get exposure.t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 02:31:53 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <9tSdnaaN1qrxAfSjXTWcog@metrocast.net>  ; "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messager7 news:b096a4ee.0303070733.4e2ec2e2@posting.google.com... 7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagee. news:<a5idnRM8DszJYvqjXTWcqg@metrocast.net>...? > > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messagea; > > news:b096a4ee.0303061429.13ad17fc@posting.google.com...2A > > > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message / > > news:<3E678A39.4FDC5595@vl.videotron.ca>...a   ...n  > > > > At this pace, it'll take centuries to achieve democracy. > >rF > > If it does, that's their business, not ours - though fostering theL > > development of democracy through peaceful and ethical means is certainly > > acceptable.  >uH > They are not a free people and therefore they cannot make it their own > business.'  D That does not, however, make it *our* business - at least beyond any2 non-invasive encouragement we may choose to offer.  I > > > > The USA may be bragging about having been in touch with plenty ofo > >  opposition)H > > > > in Iraq who would be ready to take power once Saddam is removed. HINT:t
 > >  these& > > > > may just be worse than Saddam. > > >d% > > > Could be. Could be better, too.p > >cK > > Not our business in either case:  any such concerns are the province ofi thee2 > > U.N., if it decides they need to be addressed. >  > The U.N. is a joke.s  ? So is Dubya.  Unfortunately, that does not make him irrelevant.eF Fortunately, he's not in a position to make the U.N. irrelevant eitherJ (though he clearly thinks he is, and unwillingness to work *with* the U.N.4 does help make it seem a joke to insular Americans).   ...i  1 > >  Also, the Afgahns didn't rebel when the U.S.e > > > defeated the Taliban.i > >sK > > Nor did they solidify into a nation.  And the tentative government thatt weD > > installed is now criticizing us for not following through on our promises ofaB > > continued involvement for the second time:  just as we dropped Afghanistan J > > like a hot potato after helping what later became the Taliban kick out thewJ > > Soviets, we're 'way shy of the kind of support we promised the currentJ > > government, and they're specifically suggesting that if we do the same thingaL > > in Iraq (as Bush now seems to be suggesting in response to queries about hows> > > much all this will cost) there'll be major problems there. >t& > They're lucky we helped them at all.  J You have a reasonably broad poll to that effect?  They, after all, are theK ones who get to decide whether our net effect was beneficial (i.e., whether H they were 'lucky'), not us:  in the absence of reliable input from theirH side, your statement sounds rather arrogant (and, regrettably, typically
 American).  C > > > > Iraqis should decide, not americans or anyone else.  We, asi
 foreigners > >  toMJ > > > > Iraq, can only complain about Iraq acting outside its own borders, or
 > >  usingL > > > > banned weapons or torture against his own people. On the other hand, then	 > >  USA,cF > > > > with the death penalty, is really in no position to argue that Saddam > >  has noi= > > > > right to kill what his country defines as a criminal.0 > > >s8 > > > Iraqis can't decide as long as Saddam is in power. > >"I > > Yet again, the U.N. is the sole body responsible for deciding whethern anyc/ > > intervention to change this is appropriate.0 >0 > The U.N. is a joke.   K You know, your opinion of the U.N. really isn't as important as you seem to I think it is.  Even America's opinion as a whole isn't as important as the.H rest of the world's.  So you'd better get used to that 'joke' playing an  important role in world affairs.  H > > > > Don't do onto others what you don't want done onto yourself. How would  > >  the USAJ > > > > have reacted if, during the 2000 slection/selection debacle, other > >  countriesK > > > > would not have recognised the nomination of Bush Jr as president of  the2 > >  USAH > > > > and requested the election considered failed with a new election held ? > > > ? > > > Saddam wasn't elected, unless you believe that 100% krap.  > >wH > > Leaving aside the question of whether Dubya was in fact elected, the factK > > remains that who runs Iraq is *none of our business* (any more than whop runs> > > the U.S. is anyone else's business, which was JF's point). >-( > That depends on what that leader does.  I No, it does not - unless he presents a dire and imminent direct threat tohK the U.S. itself, to his own neighbors (and they ask us for help), or to hisnG own people (at the level of genocide).  Intervention about anything notm; rising to that level is the sole responsibility of the U.N.    ...   H > > > > And while the USA media may have focused on the work that the UN > >  inspectorseF > > > > hadn,t completed by 1998, they unfortunatly never focus on the	 amount of 	 > >  workiK > > > > that they had succesfully done prior to 1998. Note that for all its  > >  might, theeK > > > > USA intelligence had been unaware of the Iraq nuclear efforts untilt > >  after the$ > > > > war when inspectors came in. > > > K > > > Some argue that in favor of getting him now before he makes nukes, or  > > > more nukes.  > >nJ > > That argument ignores the increasing evidence that he has no remainingK > > active nuclear program whatsoever - something which the inspectors feelsL > > they'll be in a position to state with reasonable certainty before long,E > > even if the issues of chemical and biological weapons may be lessn > > immediately verifiable.l >wA > The West has consistently underestimated the status of Saddam'sr > nuclear program.  K That's what inspections are designed to correct.  And their findings do nott support your concerns.   ...t   > > > That's not enough? > >sG > > No, it's not.  Not after decades of supporting regimes that oppress  theirsH > > citizenry (because doing so suits our own interests) and propping up >i8 > So you're saying that the 9/11 attacks were justified?  K I'm saying they were understandable:  there were causes for them, and thosenE causes would not have existed had our behavior been more considerate.tK Whether they were justified is a subjective judgement and much more subjecta
 to debate.    Are you for > real?   J Indeed I am.  And the terrorists are even more real:  despising them won'tJ make them go away, but understanding their motives and eliminating, to theH degree we can reasonably do so, the causes for them would at least help.   >oK > > Israel's occupation and, worse, settlement activities for three decadesi4 > > despite the condemnation of the world community. >t: > It was the Arabs fault that there even is an occupation.  J Really?  Their fault for attempting to retake the land that was taken from? them in 1948?  I'm afraid you have a bit of a blind spot there.w    And it is the= > Palestinians' fault that they don't have their own country.-  L They had had what they needed:  why would they care about getting lines on a map in exchange?    They couldr5 > have had one in 1948, but they went to war instead.d  K Funny how some people get upset when you grab the land they were living on.     From 1948 to 1967; > they didn't care that they didn't have their own country.h  ( See above:  they just wanted their land.  
  If the ArabsbD > hadn't forced Israel into a war in 1967, there'd be no occupation.  J And if Israel hadn't been carved out of land that the donors were not free to give, there'd be no problem.e   > C > If the Palestinians had made as good an offer to Israel as Israel F > under Ehud made to them, and if Israel responded with the equivalent; > of an intifada, wouldn't you be pretty angry with Israel?r  @ Not in the slightest:  it's the roles and their history that are4 significant, not the specifics of who occupies them.  
  Hmmm? Oh,G > but turn the tables and somehow you still find Israel to be at fault.a  J Funny how you assume the issue is about ethnicity rather than issues.  ButI it does give some insight into Israeli hard-line thinking (or what passesd for it).   >-G > Yeah, there were complaints about the offer Ehud made to them. But itwB > is controversial just what these problems were. Even so, had theF > Palestinians accepted it it would have been the best thing to happen > to them in decades.:  I And that's a *good* thing?  Rather, it's a sad commentary on what they've % had to put up with for those decades.c  /  And to respond to even a slightly flawed offerM > with suicide bombers?e  D Well, Israel *did* have the opportunity to fix the flaws, but wasn't inclined to.  ( > This is to be commended or overlooked?  G Mostly, it's important that it be *understood*:  how it's judged reallyf isn't very relevant.    What it0 > does is show what the Palestinians really are.  L Yup:  unwilling to be pushed beyond a certain point, regardless of the cost.    They want to destroyy< > Israel. It still says so in the PLO's charter. IT SAYS SO!  L Well, at least it used to.  The PLO has stated repeatedly that it would giveG up that goal if Israel would give up its occupation, which is in fact a K *major* concession (i.e., they're finally willing to relinquish their claim J to the land taken in 1948, as long as they get back the land taken later).J For some reason, Israel just hasn't quite managed to agree to that (thoughB it was coming close under Rabin, which is why a right-wing IsraeliI assassinated him - and instead of responding with appropriate outrage andoK the determination to continue his work, the country turned hard right, juste$ as the assassin had hoped it would).   > 0 > I have lost all sympathy for the Palestinians,  H They really couldn't care less about your sympathy (though they'd likely; welcome it if offered):  they just want their freedom back.2    though I have littleeG > for the "settlers" who obviously don't help matters. I understand how(C > people are not happy with the settlements. But it seems to me thec& > Palestinians are much more at fault.   Other viewpoints differ.   >xE > Aid to Israel helps preserve the only democracy in the Middle East.c  H Democracy is nice, all other things being equal.  In this case, however,I other things are far from equal:  supporting Israel is without question asF liability for American foreign policy, but of great domestic politicalK importance.  But even large portions of the American Jewish population (andzK for that matter many liberal Israelis) are torn between loyalty to the ideaiG of a Jewish state and horror at some of the things that state is doing.e   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 07:59:32 GMTtL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants6 Message-ID: <00A1C88E.0F7725CF@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  b In article <3E695504.1FBC94F6@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:+ >Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:v4 >> >Why can't teh USa actually show original films ?" >> >       La Totale --> True Lies> >> >       Trois hommes et un couffin --> three men and a babyS >> >       La Cage aux Folles --> (oops, forgot the american knockoff) (Birdcage ?)L >> WQ >> Because we're illiterates who don't speak French and who can't read subtitles.  >sO >You'd be surprised how dubbing works. In Qubec, the government forced the bigiO >movie distributors to release the french version of movies at the same time asuN >english originals. The distributors cried foul. But guess what, ? Since then,L >they've been able to release both version "on-time" at the sime time as the >rest of north america.a  K I've seen a lot of really annoyingly-badly-dubbed movies, and I much preferiJ subtitles.  (On the other hand, my girlfriend - who was an English major -H says if she wanted to read she'd have stayed home with a book, and hatesM subtitles.)  Decent-quality dubbing is acceptable with animation, though; ther/ lips never lined up that tightly to start with.    >t, >> What would the FBI be doing in Vancouver? >rM >It could have been set in Vancouve with the RCMP doing the investigations ofiK >the "X-files". But as Chris Carter noted in an interview, it wouldn't haveeO >worked in the USA, their target market because the USA expect all TV to appearr >to originate from the USA.a  K Indeed, when we - nowadays - have a TV series about a Mountie, it's set in iL Chicago.  (But we used to have "King of the Northwest Mounted" _and_ "Dudley Do-Right".)e   -- Alanp  O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056'M  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025eO ===============================================================================j   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 08:01:10 GMTzL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants6 Message-ID: <00A1C88E.4A3617F7@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  _ In article <u2qdnfCvYZmK-vSjXTWcoA@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:a >d> >"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message* >news:3E695504.1FBC94F6@vl.videotron.ca...- >> Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:t >i >... >l. >> > What would the FBI be doing in Vancouver? >>L >> It could have been set in Vancouve with the RCMP doing the investigations >oftM >> the "X-files". But as Chris Carter noted in an interview, it wouldn't havelJ >> worked in the USA, their target market because the USA expect all TV to >appear  >> to originate from the USA.s > E >You're really stretching on this one.  The show is aimed at the U.S.sI >audience, and is therefore about the FBI rather than the RCMP.  The only L >reasons it's shot in Vancouver are presumably economic:  using a U.S. motifH >is entirely natural.  And there's no secret about where it's shot:  theJ >intent is not to make the show appear to *originate* in the U.S., but for1 >its action to appear to *take place* in the U.S.   E And in fact they moved shooting back to Los Angeles during Duchovny'slF next-to-last season, and it was _still_ set largely on the East Coast.   -- Alan     O ===============================================================================c0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056tM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025 O ===============================================================================S   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:40:12 +1000h1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au>i: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants, Message-ID: <3E69BA7C.4090005@tg.nsw.gov.au>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:  D A nice and, to my knowledge, reasonably accurate description of the F events that Andrew mentioned ... there were many others where (not to F put down US, but as a European they do try to tell everyone that they H won WWII unaided.  My father's cynical remarks were that they travelled C around the liberated countries in trucks dishing out chocolate and bG nylons for the obvious remuneration.  He did add, not all, but most of rA the allied forces had warred for about 6 years with little break.r  I > Actually thats historically inacurate. In WW II although the US enteredtH > the war in 1941 it only did so because of the Japanese attack on PearlD > Harbour, public sentiment up to then was that it was pretty much a > european conflict. > B > Before Pearl Harbour the UK and its Colonial Allies and the FreeB > French were the only people standing between Hitler and EuropeanB > domination. The defining battles which effectively ended HitlersC > chances of doing this were Dunkirk which was effectively a defeateA > for the Allies but one where the UK managed to salvage the bulk B > of their army that would otherwise have been destroyed in France. > and the Battle of Britain where the RAF won. > I Not a great lover of war films (inculcated by my father who was involved u> and would never watch any war film -- Aussie, UK or US -- and F particularly the latter from his personal experiences), but I thought F that the old black and white movie of Dunkirk was one of the few with F real authenticity.  Others were Kenneth More as Douglas Bader and the I odd one or two of "escape" films that were based on books written by the r
 participants.n  = > The Battle for the Atlantic where convoys of food etc (paidr< > for by the UK and not given by the US) were shipped across> > the Atlantic under German UBoat attack had also largely been > won. > ; > Two British inventions were key in both the Uboat war ande= > the Battle of Britain, These were the Code Breaking programe: > at Bletchley Park which broke the Enigma Code and Radar. >   H Alan Turing for one -- remind me of the other -- the bouncing bomb guy, C didn't he also contribute to Radar?  And also I believe the author a/ Dennis Wheatley was an army Major at Bletchley.p  F > And the tide of the war changed largely due to two events the battleG > of El Alamein which the British 8th army won which then paved the way E > for the invasion of Italy and Hitler attacking Russia in June 1941.u > F My father was involved in El Alamein, and the first time I ever heard G him talk of it was when we had a farewell drink at a pub just before I cG came to .au.  I was nearly 40, and he just wanted me to know (possibly nH the last time seeing him -- luckily not) of what he experienced and why  he could never watch war films.:  = > Many historians think that the latter and particualarly the @ > battle of Stalingrad was the point at which Hitler effectively > lost the war.- > > > And lets not forget the finacial motive here. In 1939 the Uk? > was the worlds super power financially. By the end of the war.> > in 1945 the Uk was effectively broke, gold reserves gone etc9 > most of this wealth flowed west to the US which was the"* > only major economy to profit from WW II. > ? > Despite winning WW II the UK then suffered years of rationing 4 > of basic goods after 1945 to help pay for the war. > D Yep, that's one of the tax burdens I used to share when I lived and F worked in UK.  To me from the "aftermath" perspective, Germany and US H were the big time winners.  (I'm only anti US in that they find it hard 4 to speak English, but I experience the same here :-)  E And with the rationing -- sweets until, I think, about 1953, my only >E cuddly toy was a sort of bedraggled cat knitted by my grandmother -- hH almost my only toy for the first several years of my life.  (I was born F in 1945, so my father did get a break in 1944.  Their furlough was to G assist the land army girls.  A six month break (after 5 years) -- time IF enough to marry my mother [and they'll get their 60 in next year] and G procreate me -- before he was sent back to fight.  Some might see that  - procreation as a disadvantage of a furlough.)   	 > Regardst > Andrew Harrisono   Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************k  C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegedn> and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise B the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.r  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid eA immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the  = individual sender except where the sender expressly and with  C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid usesi> virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************s   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 12:03:37 +0100t6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants) Message-ID: <3E69CE09.1080305@vajhoej.dk>    Don Sykes wrote:6 >>How large a percentage of americans has been outside
 >>the US ? > G > While I might agree that a smaller % of Americans has been outside of G > the US, than say the Swiss, I'd say the Swiss don't have far to go toT2 > get outside. Indeed anywhere in Europe is close.  6 Very true, but does not change tha fact that many more$ europeans travel to other countries.  C >                                                   If however yourPI > comparing our travels to the vast world population, I'd say a lot of us F > have journeyed to other countries. How many of the 1B Chineese or 1BE > Indians have traveled outside their countries. Or, how many Iraqi'ss > have?/  H Also true, but again not very relevant. The influence the 1B chinese has) on China foreign policy is probably zero.e  > In Europe we usually assume that the people has some influende
 on decisions.i  5 >>How large a percentage of americans speak a foreignt >>language ? > > > About 30%. Mostly Spanish, but most other languages are wellF > represented. I know here in San Francisco, the voting ballots are inE > about 7 languages. My children speak 3. I speak 1+1/2 plus C, Java,-
 > Cobol, etc.-    D In Denmark everybody has to learn both english and german. Mandatory in all schools.o   Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 14:44:01 GMTm# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>D: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsJ Message-ID: <Rknaa.181563$UXa.130530@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  2 "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message% news:3E692625.BE37CB7C@pacbell.net...v >m >, > Arne Vajhj wrote: > >  > > Don Sykes wrote:F > > >          If anything, "our masses" are exposed to other cultures far / > > > more than those in the rest of the world.  > >t > > Are you sure about that ?- >-E > Yes, but the difference is other cultures come to us - on their owno > accord I might add.RF > Of course nowadays Europe has had a migration too, but they're still wayw* > behind in terms of the immigrant influx. >r > ><8 > > How large a percentage of americans has been outside > > the US ?D > While I might agree that a smaller % of Americans has been outside ofD > the US, than say the Swiss, I'd say the Swiss don't have far to go toB > get outside. Indeed anywhere in Europe is close. If however yourF > comparing our travels to the vast world population, I'd say a lot of usF > have journeyed to other countries. How many of the 1B Chineese or 1BE > Indians have traveled outside their countries. Or, how many Iraqi's  > have?p >M > >n7 > > How large a percentage of americans speak a foreignr > > language ? > > > About 30%. Mostly Spanish, but most other languages are wellF > represented. I know here in San Francisco, the voting ballots are inE > about 7 languages. My children speak 3. I speak 1+1/2 plus C, Java,r
 > Cobol, etc.o  A Those who frequent comp.os.vms are generally a different breed ofE? person than the US population at large - usually well educated,i> usually well paid (although always not enough), intellectually? curious, often knowledgeable at a deep level of a wide range oft	 subjects.o   Quick...D How many Americans know which country is the largest trading partner with the US?> Which country is the largest single supplier of oil to the US?3 http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw246.shtmli5 How many know the answer to both questions is Canada. E How many know Canadians *can* choose their own doctors, see them when E they need to, and that *all* Canadians have health insurance from theh' day they are born til the day they die?rC Not too many given the selective nature in which the US media skewsa@ accurate reporting of the truth in order to curry favor with the/ Administration and their own political agendas.S  C There is a lot the average US citizen doesn't see in a balanced and C enlightened point of view. Quality publications like The Nation and @ The Atlantic Monthly are pilloried by the right, tagged with theC epithet of 'liberal'. Broaden your horizons - challenge yourself to1A pick a copy of each of these up and read them from cover to covercE sometime, just as 'liberals' should read 'The New Republic' from timeeF to time. If enough people took the time to educate themselves with theB facts rather than the spin, then perhaps there can be reasoned andB rational debate about important matters, and progressive solutionsF that benefit all Americans. Until that happens, Americans will, sadly,% be led by the nose via 'sound bites'.h   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 14:44:05 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>i: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsI Message-ID: <Vknaa.181567$UXa.34687@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>e  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messageJ6 news:d7791aa1.0303070558.45d7242@posting.google.com...0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageD news:<kyT9a.61073$em1.29195@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...9 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageo0 > > news:nH-dnQ7FXKL4T_qjXTWcog@metrocast.net... > >s > > Well said. > >-F > > There are some smaller percentage of the populace that will oppose warID > > under any circumstance, but by and large the majority will be of theh > > opinion: > >o. > > War if necessary, but not necessarily war. > > D > > And the majority of world opinion, and dare I say US opinion, is that> > > war is not called for, nor is it justifiable at this time. >n? > not called for ... Iraq was probably behind both the OK. citym@ > and NY attacks, are now working to arm terrorists with poisons> > and nuclear suitcases, and you say sit on our butts and wait9 > to be nuked?  We don't need the UN to weigh in when our > > natioanl security is at stake ... glad you aren't president!     I'm just glad I'm not you Bob.  E I believe that the only country currently on record as to threateninglE the US with attack is North Korea. When are you heading over the wirea of the DMZ?l   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2003 09:00:40 -06004+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)-: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <shCHmgXVrzq8@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  _ In article <FI6cnVmnQJzslvSjXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:e > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:agQ$Jf59U2fX@eisner.encompasserve.org...t >  > ...m >  >>- >> But what if Afghanistan decends into chaoss > K > If it does, it will be because we've abandoned the promises we made theretL > yet again - which, given Dubya's attitude about how to cut expenses abroadJ > (except when there's a war he wants to fight) seems increasingly likely. >   8 	Bill, if it does it won't be our fault.  Afghanistan is; 	a tribal society.  Watch any National Geographic specials?a> 	They play polo chasing a rider dragging a slain goat.  That's6 	a start.  But historically it has always been a mess.   				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:33:59 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E6A0D64.5345873B@vl.videotron.ca>j   Bill Todd wrote:F > You're really stretching on this one.  The show is aimed at the U.S.@ > audience, and is therefore about the FBI rather than the RCMP.  M Which comes back to the original point that US audiences do not consume stuff J that originates from abroad in terms of TV/movies. They'll consume foreignF music as long as it is in english, with a few exceptions now and then.  L Elsewhere in the world, folks have no problems consuming programming that isN set in various locations in the world. But the insular nature of the USA meansJ that a self-perpetuated "only in the USA" mentality exists, and because itM exists, the big media outlets don't risk putting on foreign shows and becausepD they don't take that risk, the insular nature strenghtens even more.  D Did you know that many of the most popular shows in the USA actuallyN originated abroad (Three's company, Who wants to be a millionaire etc etc) butN the USA decided to make their own copy instead of buying the existing show (in  the above cases, from england) ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:39:07 -0400w0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E6A0E98.7D8648DF@vl.videotron.ca>   * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:L > Indeed, when we - nowadays - have a TV series about a Mountie, it's set inN > Chicago.  (But we used to have "King of the Northwest Mounted" _and_ "Dudley
 > Do-Right".)m  U Due North, cancelled a long time ago, was shot in Toronto Canada, but set in Chicago.9   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:42:04 -0400r0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E6A0F49.C7F21A75@vl.videotron.ca>k  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:G > And in fact they moved shooting back to Los Angeles during Duchovny's H > next-to-last season, and it was _still_ set largely on the East Coast.    M They didn't want to move back. They were blackmailed by Duchovny to move backoJ to LA so he could be with his girldfriend more hours per week. And by theyM time they did that, the idiot decided for some reason that he could no longerwN do the show for a while. They might as well have stayed in vancouver where the2 setting was more "x-files" (with the fog and all).  ( I stopped watching when they move to LA.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 12:26:01 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <c0mdna3cM4EwuvejXTWcoA@metrocast.net>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in messaget) news:3E6A0E98.7D8648DF@vl.videotron.ca...g, > Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:K > > Indeed, when we - nowadays - have a TV series about a Mountie, it's sett inH > > Chicago.  (But we used to have "King of the Northwest Mounted" _and_ "Dudleyr > > Do-Right".)  >eK > Due North, cancelled a long time ago, was shot in Toronto Canada, but setg in Chicago.d  I And "Sergeant Preston of the Yukon" was very likely shot in the U.S., buts! set in - well, take a wild guess.I   You're back out to lunch, JF.o   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 12:36:40 -0400i0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E6A1C12.6C94991C@vl.videotron.ca>-   John Smith wrote:lG > I believe that the only country currently on record as to threateningMG > the US with attack is North Korea. When are you heading over the wire-
 > of the DMZ?   M Canada should threathen to throw snowballs over the border to attack the USA.>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 12:47:30 -05004 From: Everhart <ge@gce.com>v: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <b4dabm$kge$1@bob.news.rcn.net>e   Bill Todd wrote:= > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message 9 > news:b096a4ee.0303070733.4e2ec2e2@posting.google.com...  > 7 >>"Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagel > 0 > news:<a5idnRM8DszJYvqjXTWcqg@metrocast.net>... > > >>>"Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message: >>>news:b096a4ee.0303061429.13ad17fc@posting.google.com... >>>o? >>>>JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in messagef >>>e. >>>news:<3E678A39.4FDC5595@vl.videotron.ca>... >  >  > ...p >  > < >>>>At this pace, it'll take centuries to achieve democracy. >>>eE >>>If it does, that's their business, not ours - though fostering the K >>>development of democracy through peaceful and ethical means is certainlye >>>acceptable. >>H >>They are not a free people and therefore they cannot make it their own >>business.l >  > F > That does not, however, make it *our* business - at least beyond any4 > non-invasive encouragement we may choose to offer. >  > F >>>>>The USA may be bragging about having been in touch with plenty of >>>A >>> opposition >>>sE >>>>>in Iraq who would be ready to take power once Saddam is removed.1 >  > HINT:o > 	 >>> these  >>>F# >>>>>may just be worse than Saddam.c >>>># >>>>Could be. Could be better, too.D >>>@J >>>Not our business in either case:  any such concerns are the province of >  > theo > 1 >>>U.N., if it decides they need to be addressed.t >> >>The U.N. is a joke.e >  > A > So is Dubya.  Unfortunately, that does not make him irrelevant.nH > Fortunately, he's not in a position to make the U.N. irrelevant eitherL > (though he clearly thinks he is, and unwillingness to work *with* the U.N.6 > does help make it seem a joke to insular Americans). >  > ...  >  > 0 >>> Also, the Afgahns didn't rebel when the U.S. >>>g >>>>defeated the Taliban.o >>> J >>>Nor did they solidify into a nation.  And the tentative government that >  > we > C >>>installed is now criticizing us for not following through on our  > 
 > promises of  > A >>>continued involvement for the second time:  just as we droppedc > 
 > Afghanistanv > I >>>like a hot potato after helping what later became the Taliban kick out. >  > thee > I >>>Soviets, we're 'way shy of the kind of support we promised the currenttI >>>government, and they're specifically suggesting that if we do the samec >  > thing  > K >>>in Iraq (as Bush now seems to be suggesting in response to queries abouto >  > howe > = >>>much all this will cost) there'll be major problems there.S >>& >>They're lucky we helped them at all. >  > L > You have a reasonably broad poll to that effect?  They, after all, are theM > ones who get to decide whether our net effect was beneficial (i.e., whether J > they were 'lucky'), not us:  in the absence of reliable input from theirJ > side, your statement sounds rather arrogant (and, regrettably, typically > American). >  > @ >>>>>Iraqis should decide, not americans or anyone else.  We, as >  > foreigners >  >>> to >>>yG >>>>>Iraq, can only complain about Iraq acting outside its own borders,s >  > or > 	 >>> usingo >>>oI >>>>>banned weapons or torture against his own people. On the other hand,m >  > thet >  >>> USA, >>>eC >>>>>with the death penalty, is really in no position to argue thatc >  > Saddam > 
 >>> has no >>>w: >>>>>right to kill what his country defines as a criminal. >>>>6 >>>>Iraqis can't decide as long as Saddam is in power. >>> H >>>Yet again, the U.N. is the sole body responsible for deciding whether >  > anyc > . >>>intervention to change this is appropriate. >> >>The U.N. is a joke.  >  > M > You know, your opinion of the U.N. really isn't as important as you seem todK > think it is.  Even America's opinion as a whole isn't as important as the J > rest of the world's.  So you'd better get used to that 'joke' playing an" > important role in world affairs. >  > E >>>>>Don't do onto others what you don't want done onto yourself. Hown >  > wouldn >  >>> the USA  >>>qG >>>>>have reacted if, during the 2000 slection/selection debacle, otherU >>>s
 >>> countriesr >>>sH >>>>>would not have recognised the nomination of Bush Jr as president of >  > the0 >  >>> USAi >>>oE >>>>>and requested the election considered failed with a new election  >  > held ? > = >>>>Saddam wasn't elected, unless you believe that 100% krap.a >>>.G >>>Leaving aside the question of whether Dubya was in fact elected, then >  > fact > J >>>remains that who runs Iraq is *none of our business* (any more than who >  > runs > = >>>the U.S. is anyone else's business, which was JF's point).0 >>( >>That depends on what that leader does. >  > K > No, it does not - unless he presents a dire and imminent direct threat to M > the U.S. itself, to his own neighbors (and they ask us for help), or to his I > own people (at the level of genocide).  Intervention about anything noth= > rising to that level is the sole responsibility of the U.N.  >  > ...n >  > E >>>>>And while the USA media may have focused on the work that the UNs >>>n >>> inspectors >>>sC >>>>>hadn,t completed by 1998, they unfortunatly never focus on the  >  > amount of  >  >>> work >>>eH >>>>>that they had succesfully done prior to 1998. Note that for all its >>>h >>> might, the >>> H >>>>>USA intelligence had been unaware of the Iraq nuclear efforts until >>>v
 >>> after the. >>>e! >>>>>war when inspectors came in.g >>>>I >>>>Some argue that in favor of getting him now before he makes nukes, orl >>>>more nukes.a >>>eI >>>That argument ignores the increasing evidence that he has no remainingdJ >>>active nuclear program whatsoever - something which the inspectors feelK >>>they'll be in a position to state with reasonable certainty before long, D >>>even if the issues of chemical and biological weapons may be less >>>immediately verifiable. >>A >>The West has consistently underestimated the status of Saddam'se >>nuclear program. >  > M > That's what inspections are designed to correct.  And their findings do notg > support your concerns. >  > ...  >  >  >>>>That's not enough? >>>pF >>>No, it's not.  Not after decades of supporting regimes that oppress >  > theirn > G >>>citizenry (because doing so suits our own interests) and propping uph >>8 >>So you're saying that the 9/11 attacks were justified? >  > M > I'm saying they were understandable:  there were causes for them, and thoseuG > causes would not have existed had our behavior been more considerate.hM > Whether they were justified is a subjective judgement and much more subject? > to debate. >  >  Are you for >  >>real?  >  > L > Indeed I am.  And the terrorists are even more real:  despising them won'tL > make them go away, but understanding their motives and eliminating, to theJ > degree we can reasonably do so, the causes for them would at least help. >  > J >>>Israel's occupation and, worse, settlement activities for three decades3 >>>despite the condemnation of the world community.g >>: >>It was the Arabs fault that there even is an occupation. >  > L > Really?  Their fault for attempting to retake the land that was taken fromA > them in 1948?  I'm afraid you have a bit of a blind spot there.t >  >  And it is the > = >>Palestinians' fault that they don't have their own country.s >  > N > They had had what they needed:  why would they care about getting lines on a > map in exchange? > 
 >  They couldt > 5 >>have had one in 1948, but they went to war instead.. >  > M > Funny how some people get upset when you grab the land they were living on.  >  >  From 1948 to 1967 > ; >>they didn't care that they didn't have their own country.  >  > * > See above:  they just wanted their land. >  >  If the Arabsn > D >>hadn't forced Israel into a war in 1967, there'd be no occupation. >  > L > And if Israel hadn't been carved out of land that the donors were not free! > to give, there'd be no problem.  >  > C >>If the Palestinians had made as good an offer to Israel as IsraelyF >>under Ehud made to them, and if Israel responded with the equivalent; >>of an intifada, wouldn't you be pretty angry with Israel?1 >  > B > Not in the slightest:  it's the roles and their history that are6 > significant, not the specifics of who occupies them. >  >  Hmmm? Oh, > G >>but turn the tables and somehow you still find Israel to be at fault.  >  > L > Funny how you assume the issue is about ethnicity rather than issues.  ButK > it does give some insight into Israeli hard-line thinking (or what passese
 > for it). >  > G >>Yeah, there were complaints about the offer Ehud made to them. But itOB >>is controversial just what these problems were. Even so, had theF >>Palestinians accepted it it would have been the best thing to happen >>to them in decades.  >  > K > And that's a *good* thing?  Rather, it's a sad commentary on what they've ' > had to put up with for those decades.e > 1 >  And to respond to even a slightly flawed offerh >  >>with suicide bombers?s >  > F > Well, Israel *did* have the opportunity to fix the flaws, but wasn't > inclined to. >  > ( >>This is to be commended or overlooked? >  > I > Mostly, it's important that it be *understood*:  how it's judged reallyA > isn't very relevant. > 
 >  What it > 0 >>does is show what the Palestinians really are. >  > N > Yup:  unwilling to be pushed beyond a certain point, regardless of the cost. >  >  They want to destroyy > < >>Israel. It still says so in the PLO's charter. IT SAYS SO! >  > N > Well, at least it used to.  The PLO has stated repeatedly that it would giveI > up that goal if Israel would give up its occupation, which is in fact a.M > *major* concession (i.e., they're finally willing to relinquish their claim L > to the land taken in 1948, as long as they get back the land taken later).L > For some reason, Israel just hasn't quite managed to agree to that (thoughD > it was coming close under Rabin, which is why a right-wing IsraeliK > assassinated him - and instead of responding with appropriate outrage andtM > the determination to continue his work, the country turned hard right, justt& > as the assassin had hoped it would). >  > 0 >>I have lost all sympathy for the Palestinians, >  > J > They really couldn't care less about your sympathy (though they'd likely= > welcome it if offered):  they just want their freedom back.i >  >  though I have little  > G >>for the "settlers" who obviously don't help matters. I understand how C >>people are not happy with the settlements. But it seems to me the)& >>Palestinians are much more at fault. >  >  > Other viewpoints differ. >  > E >>Aid to Israel helps preserve the only democracy in the Middle East.t >  > J > Democracy is nice, all other things being equal.  In this case, however,K > other things are far from equal:  supporting Israel is without question aeH > liability for American foreign policy, but of great domestic politicalM > importance.  But even large portions of the American Jewish population (andrM > for that matter many liberal Israelis) are torn between loyalty to the ideaoI > of a Jewish state and horror at some of the things that state is doing.r >  > - bill >  >  > H If Israel were a democracy in the sense we have gotten used to, it wouldM have no problems simply annexing the whole area and allowing the PalestinianseK to vote and participate in their society as citizens. Obviously the Israeli3L government at least is unwilling to do this, since that would mean all thoseM Christians and Moslems would outnumber the Jews and the country would not any T longer be a religious state. (Never mind that genetically most of the aforementionedK Christians and Jews are probably much closer to the ancient Israelites thanSI the immigrant Jews (who got a raw deal also and were sold a bill of goodslH by those who claimed Palestine was a 'land without a people')). Right ofO descent, or even tracing rights back to Abraham, Moses, etc., if done honestly,hG would probably favor the group now called Palestinians taking the wholeo region over.  T The Israeli government and some fraction of its citizens don't want the PalestiniansL to be citizens but they do want evidently to control all the land. It is notH surprising that the Palestinians conclude the plan is for them to eitherJ be forcibly ejected or to be killed en masse. The French during WWII mightN have viewed the Germans in something like this light. What their partisans did5 would have been called terrorism had the Allies lost.n  N The business of civilians getting blown up is lousy for both groups there, andK to my mind the US has business making funding of anyone there contingent ondN it going to activities calculated to stop the provocation and to some solutionH for the Palestinians other than diaspora or death. No military aid while; the settlements exist might be a suitable attention getter.e  K I am uneasy about attacking Iraq, though I have read reports they fund somesN of the suicide bombs in Israel. The US intelligence community may have reportsK of other activity, but we see very few bits of evidence that confirm these,tJ and lots of apparent hoaxes. I hope that a great, great deal more evidenceI comes out, sooner the better, to indicate that some of this stuff is real"@ and not just more hoaxes and FUD from people with other agendas.  L The President is trying to deal with scenarios of agents of mass destructionI cheap enough for a few cranks to handle, and how to protect against them.C  K However I might suggest that the notion of trying to keep them out of crankdJ hands is probably doomed, and it would I think be better to start thinkingK about making sure everyone is armed as an alternative. A crank can threatenaO masses if the masses can't have a few counter-cranks who will blow a threateneriN to Kingdom come when they find him. Messy? Yeah, but maybe that way the messesN don't turn into governments or quasi-governments. Stuff like ricin is just wayJ too easy to make (tho perhaps harder to make and survive the making ;-) ).   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2003 18:56:08 GMT - From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)n: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-LUOdxjf2yhSE@localhost>?  F On Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:07:48 UTC, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan' Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote:C  L > I never heard the claim that Iraq was behind the Oklahoma City attack, norL > for that matter that the Oklahoma City attack _needed_ anyone to be behindH > it.  Is Saddam supposed to have smuggled McVeigh the ingredients for a@ > fertilizer bomb?  Loaned him the deposit for the rental truck?  E In a BBC documentary that I watched at Xmas, the claim was made that eD an Iraqi led McVeigh into temptation. ISTR it was a woman from some B right-wing think-tank (the same on Rumsfeld was associated with?) B making the claim. McVeigh's defense team on the other hand, could C remember nothing from the evidence available to the time that came oF anywhere near substantiating the claim. I was left with the impressionF that a link between Iraq and McViegh was being manufactured for people	 like bob.=   -- = Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:27:30 +0100l4 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> Subject: Portmapping& Message-ID: <3E6A3612.5010408@Free.fr>  A There is a nice tool under WinDaube with allows a gateway system =D connected to the Internet to map different ports to different other ( systems behind it in a domestic network.  G I have a friend who has a PWS600au as the Internet Gateway, linked via RF ADSL. "Behind", there are a few systems where he wishes to be able to 4 do, from "outside" FTP on one, HTTP on another, etc.  . How do you do that with the TCP/IP portmapper?   Thanks,a   D. -- i)     M O R A N D I   C o n s u l t a n t s.+ 19 chemin de la Butte 31400 Toulouse Franceo+ Tl: 33(0)6 7983 6418 Fax: 33(0)5 6154 1928e%         http://Didier.Morandi.Free.frM   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2003 02:17:12 -0800r1 From: dseagrav@lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves)bY Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdae= Message-ID: <667a2609.0303080039.2885f27c@posting.google.com>y  b m_thompson@ids.net (Michael Thompson) wrote in message news:<v6hmp7fr953r92@corp.supernews.com>...Q > So we just add the DTE20 emulation to SIMH and have it talk to a KL10 emulator aN > through IPC or a socket? Very cool, we could have 4 PDP11 emulators running - > RSX20F connected to a single KL10 emulator.w  7 Why do you think I wanted to run RSX20F under simh? ^_^   D I've been toying with this idea off and on for a year now. I'm doing) my darndest to accomplish nothing useful.f   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 08 Mar 03 10:40:44 GMTl From: jmfbahciv@aol.comrY Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda + Message-ID: <b4cjvv$imi$2@bob.news.rcn.net>l  = In article <667a2609.0303080039.2885f27c@posting.google.com>,a5    dseagrav@lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) wrote:r8 >m_thompson@ids.net (Michael Thompson) wrote in message + news:<v6hmp7fr953r92@corp.supernews.com>...kI >> So we just add the DTE20 emulation to SIMH and have it talk to a KL10 a	 emulator aG >> through IPC or a socket? Very cool, we could have 4 PDP11 emulators r running . >> RSX20F connected to a single KL10 emulator. >i8 >Why do you think I wanted to run RSX20F under simh? ^_^ >iE >I've been toying with this idea off and on for a year now. I'm doingt* >my darndest to accomplish nothing useful.  D But not four 20Fs to one KL.  4 KLs.  I'm beginning to get confused.@ I bet the SMP protocols would have to turn into <UGH!> DECnet or: something.  That would bring processing down to its knees.  @ But it could conceivable do that loosely-coupled thingie TOPS-20> implemented.  Although I don't how the HSC contention could be handled.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.h   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 08 Mar 03 10:37:08 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdas+ Message-ID: <b4cjp7$imi$1@bob.news.rcn.net>d  8 In article <nbji6vg9jhkbu1iq3mq99j44mup295m40a@4ax.com>,+    John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote:b >Michael Thompson wrote: >.F >So we just add the DTE20 emulation to SIMH and have it talk to a KL10C >emulator through IPC or a socket? Very cool, we could have 4 PDP11u> >emulators running RSX20F connected to a single KL10 emulator. >e >John Sauter responded:  >a8 >I don't believe you can have more than one RSX20F-based >PDP-11 on a KL10.    7 hmmm....I wonder if you'ld have to have them running in A order to run an SMP.  Probably.  Those two OSes got so incetuous.   + > ... I recommend running the DN60 softwareo >on the other three.  ; I don't remember what the DN60 did anymore.  Wasn't that ann IBM handshaker?t   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 07:08:15 -0500 ' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net>tY Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda 8 Message-ID: <4smj6vk0himsp7qt127d7tn66iurq40101@4ax.com>  8 On Sat, 08 Mar 03 10:37:08 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:   John Sauter wrote:  7 ... I recommend running the DN60 software on the other  0 three [PDP-11s attached to the DTE20 on a KL10].   Barb wrote:e  ; I don't remember what the DN60 did anymore.  Wasn't that ane IBM handshaker?a   John Sauter responded:  6 Yes, the DN60 series let TOPS-20 (and -10) communicate8 with IBM-compatible network printers and such.  Examples; were the IBM 2780 and IBM 3780.  We also did it in reverse,a9 letting the DEC system act as a remote job entry terminal 6 to an IBM mainframe.  Ed Fortmiller, Morindar Malhotra/ and I developed that product in the late 1970s. %     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)a   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 08:12:03 GMT*4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> Subject: Re: unixa8 Message-ID: <168j6vghakh5k494puvjo9776jj6n07j17@4ax.com>  7 On 6 Mar 2003 11:24:15 -0600 in alt.folklore.computers,o< koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  z >In article <1046960197.849918@saucer.planet.gong>, "Rupert Pigott" <roo@dark-try-removing-this-boong.demon.co.uk> writes: >> n; >> Oddly the VAX & IA-64 may have a lot in common, althougha9 >> the IA-64's political impact is far larger from what Ii >> can tell. >tE >   Never underestimate the impact of the VAX.  For over a decade the   @ I'd estimate closer to five years: 85-90; after the VAX-11s. DEC> lost a lot of good PDP-11, -10, and -20 customers due to their> VAX only mentality, and their failure to deliver anything with7 decent commercial price/performance for a long period. s  F >   rule of thumb was:  if you had to do a computer based system, you > >   went out and bought a VAX.  Even IBM and Microsoft did it.  ? IBM would only buy a VAX to check if DEC were infringing on anyQ9 of their patents: possibly a reason the VAX lacked a pagei: referenced bit, and had to rely on stealing back logically8 swapped pages, instead of using a proper LRU algorithm.   H >   Sadly, the VAX was also instrumental to the evolution and popularityE >   of UNIX.  Of those folks at Berkely hadn't ported it to a VAX thet% >   rest of might never have seen it!f  ? BSD became popular because of their approach to networking, and > that would have happened on any platform they and others could afford to do that work. @ BSD probably also helped to keep the VAX line alive by selling aA lot of VAXes to academic institutions who could not have afforded @ anything like the same number of VAXes including VMS and product
 licences. @ If VAXes hadn't been around, something like SUNs would have been@ used for BSD; BSD networking was also core to SUN's popularity. A Had Apple built a Mac that could run TCP/IP, instead of LocalTalko= and then EtherTalk, who knows which PC platform would be most 
 popular now?    9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada  -- eF Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply@ abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com ? abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com  B abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com - abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov				spam traps-   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 09:47:33 GMT"4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> Subject: Re: unixr8 Message-ID: <jmej6vktsa6v9p9ge0qllo53qjvjk7a7ck@4ax.com>  9 On Thu, 06 Mar 03 10:59:13 GMT in alt.folklore.computers,r jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  * >In article <w1Uf0EQpJryo@elias.decus.ch>,. >   p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:G >>In article <b3sofh$rp0$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: - >>> In article <0PL33tx$iQG4@elias.decus.ch>, 1 >>>    p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:tI >>>>In article <b3qhii$nu2$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:g >>>>
 >>>><snip> >>>>D >>>>> Unix could suck eggs but people will still use it if, and only@ >>>>> if, they get the sources.  One of DEC's fatal mistakes was@ >>>>> to try to keep the "knowledge", a.k.a. sources, to itself;? >>>>> it was under the misconception that secrecy would protecthB >>>>> its investment and intellectual property.  This is one case ' >>>>> where the exact opposite is true.e >>>>>  >>>>C >>>>Memories of a DEC comms program back in the late 1970s here. It'E >>>>could have saved us an awful lot of money but didn't work. We hadeE >>>>the source for at least some of it, but all the comments had been, >>>>stripped. Plain stupid IMO.  >>>>B >>> I don't believe that.  I would believe that the comments never >>> existed.   >>>  >>F >>This was a piece of RT11 macro which was supposed to talk to an IBM. >>F >>It appeared that someone had run an editing macro against the source? >>to search for a semicolon and then delete to the end of line.s >>H >>I don't remember the exact details, but the evidence convinced me that >>was what had happened. >uD >The only reason (that I can think of) is that the IBM protocol usedA >to talk to the device was proprietary(sp?) and the last edit to iB >the source had to be stripping the documenation (which is rather ; >silly but then those lawyer-genrated edicts usually were).o  A We always figured DEC didn't release source because it was so godt< awful: this was confirmed by many of the patches to original" brain dead code that we received. 9 DDT was a nice disassembler on those systems where it wash
 provided. : ODT on the 11s was more of a pain, but the 11's nice octal= instruction set layout made the disassembly easier than othery
 machines. ? Word/byte/char dumpers were popular utilities to write on 11s. o  9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canadaa -- eF Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply@ abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com ? abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com iB abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com - abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov				spam traps    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 08 Mar 03 12:58:55 GMTm From: jmfbahciv@aol.comh Subject: Re: unixm+ Message-ID: <b4cs31$669$5@bob.news.rcn.net>r  8 In article <168j6vghakh5k494puvjo9776jj6n07j17@4ax.com>,8    Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:8 >On 6 Mar 2003 11:24:15 -0600 in alt.folklore.computers,= >koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:- >-E >>In article <1046960197.849918@saucer.planet.gong>, "Rupert Pigott"  6 <roo@dark-try-removing-this-boong.demon.co.uk> writes:   <snip>  G >>   rule of thumb was:  if you had to do a computer based system, you i? >>   went out and bought a VAX.  Even IBM and Microsoft did it.w >e@ >IBM would only buy a VAX to check if DEC were infringing on any >of their patents: @   <snip>  C Nope.  Another reason IBM would buy a VAX is to test their softwarea@ if it had to talk to a VAX.  Even computer manufactureres bought9 computers based on the job it had to perform.  For years,.) DEC used a Burroughs to do their payroll.r   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 08 Mar 03 13:04:37 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.comn Subject: Re: unix + Message-ID: <b4csdn$669$6@bob.news.rcn.net>   8 In article <jmej6vktsa6v9p9ge0qllo53qjvjk7a7ck@4ax.com>,8    Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:: >On Thu, 06 Mar 03 10:59:13 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:t > + >>In article <w1Uf0EQpJryo@elias.decus.ch>,o/ >>   p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:yH >>>In article <b3sofh$rp0$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:. >>>> In article <0PL33tx$iQG4@elias.decus.ch>,2 >>>>    p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:J >>>>>In article <b3qhii$nu2$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>>>>e >>>>><snip>  >>>>> E >>>>>> Unix could suck eggs but people will still use it if, and onlylA >>>>>> if, they get the sources.  One of DEC's fatal mistakes was0A >>>>>> to try to keep the "knowledge", a.k.a. sources, to itself;e@ >>>>>> it was under the misconception that secrecy would protectC >>>>>> its investment and intellectual property.  This is one case t( >>>>>> where the exact opposite is true. >>>>>> r >>>>> D >>>>>Memories of a DEC comms program back in the late 1970s here. ItF >>>>>could have saved us an awful lot of money but didn't work. We hadF >>>>>the source for at least some of it, but all the comments had been  >>>>>stripped. Plain stupid IMO. >>>>> C >>>> I don't believe that.  I would believe that the comments nevere >>>> existed.    >>>>   >>>tG >>>This was a piece of RT11 macro which was supposed to talk to an IBM.i >>>dG >>>It appeared that someone had run an editing macro against the source @ >>>to search for a semicolon and then delete to the end of line. >>>gI >>>I don't remember the exact details, but the evidence convinced me thats >>>was what had happened.- >>E >>The only reason (that I can think of) is that the IBM protocol usedzB >>to talk to the device was proprietary(sp?) and the last edit to C >>the source had to be stripping the documenation (which is rather t< >>silly but then those lawyer-genrated edicts usually were). >oB >We always figured DEC didn't release source because it was so god= >awful: this was confirmed by many of the patches to originalg# >brain dead code that we received. o  = Nah, I wouldn't assume that.  Most IBM interfaces had to suckT= (sorry, Lynn).  I don't know why but it always seemed to take = awful code written for a very long time to do anything IBMish ; and that included talking to their systems.  I have no ideas@ if the reasons were because IBM sucked or the corporate cultures, of the two computing styles clashed or what. <snip>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:29:41 GMTs+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>  Subject: Re: unix ) Message-ID: <ufzpx6ff3.fsf@earthlink.net>c   jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:rE > Nope.  Another reason IBM would buy a VAX is to test their softwareeB > if it had to talk to a VAX.  Even computer manufactureres bought; > computers based on the job it had to perform.  For years,-+ > DEC used a Burroughs to do their payroll.   B my brother (at the time regional marketing for apple) talked aboutA using his appleII to dial into the hdqtrs s/38 to check on ships,8B schedules, and other things. he claimed that he had some advantageF over most of the other marketing types having come up from a technicalF background ... and figured out how to get into and use the hdqtrs dataD processing machine (somewhere along the line i believe they upgraded from s/38 to as/400).a   --  3 Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/  A Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htmm   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 15:53:20 GMTT+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>e Subject: Re: unixW) Message-ID: <ud6l16ebp.fsf@earthlink.net>    jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:a? > Nah, I wouldn't assume that.  Most IBM interfaces had to sucki? > (sorry, Lynn).  I don't know why but it always seemed to taket? > awful code written for a very long time to do anything IBMisho= > and that included talking to their systems.  I have no ideadB > if the reasons were because IBM sucked or the corporate cultures. > of the two computing styles clashed or what.  C the "official" communication interfaces were SNA ... there has been"C some folklore that the complexity of those interfaces are result of > project i was on as an undergraduate that has been blaimed for8 originating the PCM (plug compatible manufactor) market.  > Originally, in theory, FS was suppose to address that ... withD extremely advanced, sophisticated integration. When FS got canceled,B the individual product lines were left on their own.  The folklore; sort of indiciates that complexity was then substituted forr sophisticated.  D there was joke (from a number of places) that if an internal productE attempted to jmplement sna support according to the official internal_A sna specification it would never work (boca/s1 was one group thateD complained bitterly about it). the only way to make something reallyC work was reverse engineering & regression testing with real pu4/pu5 
 operation.  B For a period, my wife was chief architect for amadeus (airline resD system for europe, and a couple us lines). she settled on x.25.  the? internal sna crowd created such an uproar that they got my wife = removed. it didn't do much good ... amadeus went x.25 anyway.1  @ earlier she had been conned into going to pok to be in charge of? loosely coupled architecture .... where she originated/authoredSE "peer-coupled shared data" architecture ... which was totally countertE to non-peer SNA paradigm. there were frequent battles between how fartE glasshouse datacenter operation could extend peer-to-peer before theyaF had to switch to non-peer sna. as fiber technologies appeared ...  the> processor group kept trying to push peer-to-peer into multipleB kilometer range before they had to officially bow to sna non-peer.  D there was one research project that used 8-tail trotter (3088 switchB with eight channel-to-channel connections) to support an eight cec8 cluster. they initially developed a peer-to-peer clusterF syncronization protocol that would settle in under a second. They then7 had their arm twisted to layer it on top of sna using agE non-peer-to-peer paradigm .... which elongated the sub-second clustero7 syncronization settling to a couple of tens of seconds.t   misc future system:.3 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#futuresys    misc pcm0 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#360pcm   misc saa, sna, &/or 3 tier/ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#3tierl   other airline res:4 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#17 Old Computersq http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#100 Why won't the AS/400 die? Or, It's 1999 why do I have to learn how to useuv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#103 IBM 9020 computers used by FAA (was Re: EPO stories (was: HELP IT'S HOT!!!!!))G http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#136a checks (was S/390 on PowerPC?)>? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#20 Competitors to SABRE?de http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#26 Disk caching and file systems.  Disk history...people forget D http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#69 Block oriented I/O over IP^ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#45 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?^ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#49 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?7 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#17 I hate Compaqh0 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#0 TSS/360K http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#3 News IBM loses supercomputer crownmE http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#2 Computers in Science Fictionn` http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#3 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?P http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#12 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?L http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#43 IBM doing anything for 50th Anniv?. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#83 HONEA http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#83 Summary: Robots of DoomhA http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#67 Tweaking old computers?SQ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#48 InfiniBand Group Sharply, Evenly DividednL http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#30 diffence between itanium and alpha      4 misc past 3088, trotter, amadeus, &/or peer-coupled:4 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#30 Drive letters5 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#35a Drive lettersh7 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#37 What is MVS/ESA?rA http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40 Comparison Cluster vs SMP?n@ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#71 High Availabilty on S/390A http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#77 Are mainframes relevant ?? D http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#92 MVS vs HASP vs JES (was 2821)q http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#100 Why won't the AS/400 die? Or, It's 1999 why do I have to learn how to use L http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#128 Examples of non-relational databases@ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#13 Computer of the century- http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#30 OT?.- http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#37 OT? < http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#73 7090 vs. 7094 etc.= http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#69 Wheeler and Wheeler D http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#71 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine?C http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#2 Block oriented I/O over IP ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#44 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid>? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid ^ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#49 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?^ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#50 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?J http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#76 Other oddball IBM System 360's ?d http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#41 Withdrawal Announcement 901-218 - No More 'small machines'E http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0 K http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#3 News IBM loses supercomputer crowntE http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#54 Computer Naming Conventions G http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#25 Crazy idea: has it been done?h< http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#6 Blade architecturesP http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#28 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?P http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#48 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?P http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#12 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?= http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#26 Future architectureoH http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#45 M$ SMP and old time IBM's LCMPB http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#68 META: Newsgroup cliques?/ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002q.html#35 HASP: . http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#49 unix   -- a3 Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ eA Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htme   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 03 17:46:44 +0100p) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture), Subject: Re: unixn) Message-ID: <zDK30IqnVoaT@elias.decus.ch>>  E In article <b47ca1$ahj$9@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:t+ > In article <w1Uf0EQpJryo@elias.decus.ch>,>/ >    p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:cG >>In article <b3sofh$rp0$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:c   <snip>   >>>>C >>>>Memories of a DEC comms program back in the late 1970s here. ItoE >>>>could have saved us an awful lot of money but didn't work. We haddE >>>>the source for at least some of it, but all the comments had beens >>>>stripped. Plain stupid IMO.l >>>>B >>> I don't believe that.  I would believe that the comments never >>> existed.   >>>  >>F >>This was a piece of RT11 macro which was supposed to talk to an IBM. >>F >>It appeared that someone had run an editing macro against the source? >>to search for a semicolon and then delete to the end of line.n >>H >>I don't remember the exact details, but the evidence convinced me that >>was what had happened. > E > The only reason (that I can think of) is that the IBM protocol usedhB > to talk to the device was proprietary(sp?) and the last edit to C > the source had to be stripping the documenation (which is rather /< > silly but then those lawyer-genrated edicts usually were). >   / That _does_ sound a very plausible explanation.    -- w
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 13:08:48 +0100* From: Morten Reistad <mrr@reistad.priv.no> Subject: Re: VAX again: unix0 Message-ID: <ggmc4b.m1e2.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>  " According to  <jmfbahciv@aol.com>:( >In article <3E687F50.49492892@ev1.net>,. >   Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote: >>Eugene Miya wrote: [snip]' >> ..That would make it a double win!!!  >l= >I don't think that would have helped.  I have wondered aboutt? >not becoming a public company.  The rot started from MPOV when ? >I heard that "market" pressures forced DEC to reduce their R&D > >budget to be "more in line with its competitors".  There were> >enough egomaniacs to keep Cutler in line way back then.  If I@ >could say "no" to him and get away with it there were certainly" >others who routinely did it, too.  C A lot of this "market" pressure consists of two-way second guessingnF between corporate management and financial analysts trying to outsmartA the other party using rumors and second guessing without making aw; real effort to understanding what the other party is doing.y  B I have seen this in a majority of cases, and have now seen this 10 years from each side.   C Corporate management is the one sitting with the real data, but theaA only part the outside can trust is the bit that has been audited.iC This is the issue that has to be addressed. You HAVE to build trust C to avoid this. Only very few companies have managed to do this, andvC they do this by being boringly predictable; i.e. the rank oppoisite @ to reacting to "market pressures". To be predictable you have to@ communicate a lot. Orders of magnitude more than a normal public company.  A It does not really help to not be public either once you are of a C certain size. It will just hold you at the mercy of bankers instead / of analysts. Believe me, the bankers are worse.u   -- mrr   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 08 Mar 03 13:13:24 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.comi Subject: Re: VAX again: unix+ Message-ID: <b4csu7$669$7@bob.news.rcn.net>o  & In article <3e68f4fd$1@news.ucsc.edu>,+    eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:mH >In article <b4a3je$ec$22@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:( >>In article <3e678c37$1@news.ucsc.edu>,- >>   eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:e6 >>>In article <8Sp2iWKTI3Mj@eisner.encompasserve.org>,= >>>Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.aspm.encompasserve.org> wrote: 1 >>>>   Never underestimate the impact of the VAX.c >>>True.I >>>However for leverage, the PDP-11, the PDP-8, and the PDP-1 on one handmB >>>and the PDP-6/PDP-10/DEC-20 had greater leverage in their time. >>B >>I don't consider the 36-bit line to have had greater leverage.  D >>I do consider that it had greater exposure.  Tens of thousands of = >>kiddies walking up to a terminal and using the system as if A >>it was his own personal machine.  How do you think Billyboy got ? >>his PC idea?  The minis gathered around the big iron to feed f >>it what they collected.t > 3 >Ah, but before Billy DEC had to get to that point.   ' DEC was at that point _before_ my time.a   > # >You are guys are easy to convince.lE >The tough guys are the big money people the DOE (ERDA/AEC) who stilltH >think they influence the computer industry with the Crays and the like.  > They used to influence the biz quite a bit.  DOE was the firstA of DEC customers, that I heard about, who wanted heteros to talk e= to each other.  It was our effort that finally managed to putc; all of the learning into a bundled package that didn't need & expertise tweaking to install and run.    3 >Even the Russians know PCs are where the power is.o   Yea, portable.   > E >The PDP-1 (minis, small address apce) really deserve to get a lot of. >credit (and the LINC).l  @ But it isn't just one thing or the other.  It was a happenstance@ of efforts where some ideas gelled and became widely distributed: products.  You cannot fund an entire company on one single shipment of bits.  >> >  >><snip interesting scifi idea>t >l >Hooked you, didn't I?  8^)   < Or I was being polite ;-).  The premise did produce a little thought.   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.i   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 08 Mar 03 13:15:38 GMTr From: jmfbahciv@aol.com  Subject: Re: VAX again: unix+ Message-ID: <b4ct2c$669$8@bob.news.rcn.net>o  9 In article <Xns9337843DAF188falkarcabca@205.233.108.180>, &    Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> wrote:- >Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote inp! >news:3E687F50.49492892@ev1.net: a >  >> Eugene Miya wrote:n >>> 7 >>> In article <8Sp2iWKTI3Mj@eisner.encompasserve.org>,i> >>> Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.aspm.encompasserve.org> wrote: >>> > 5 >>> >     [snip...]        [snip...]        [snip...]i >>> > A >>> >   Sadly, the VAX was also instrumental to the evolution and G >>> >   popularity of UNIX.  Of those folks at Berkely hadn't ported itg6 >>> >   to a VAX the rest of might never have seen it! >>> I >>> Gee, others thought it was the failure of various DEC code word namedt/ >>> architectures to keep track of performance.a >>> H >>> I can see it now ... disgruntled VMS users build a cyborg Terminator@ >>> and send it back in time to bump off a young Bill Joy or Bob >>> Fabry....  >>>dB >> I can see disgruntled PDP-10 and DEC-20 users building a cyborg@ >> Terminator to go back and take out Palmer and Dave Cutler. Of >lG >Why not go for C.G.Bell who designed the VAX?  Ooops!  he designed thef >PDP-10 also.  n  : He was project leader.  I would have duct taped his mouth.  = > ...Why Palmer?  PDP-10 was ancient history before he joined  >DEC.   * He helped to butcher what remained of DEC. /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.e   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2003 17:21:12 GMTt- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)nE Subject: Re: VAXELN vs Posix Threads (Was: DECthreads problem on VAX) 5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-g1PbYC0EdrDP@localhost>v  B On Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:00:22 UTC, John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote:  ) > On Wed, 5 Mar 2003, John Wallace wrote:A >  > > > > > "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message3 > > news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-nyzyGJ51wCpb@localhost...mB > > > On Sun, 2 Mar 2003 18:09:54 UTC, cwhii_google_spam@yahoo.com > > > (C.W.Holeman II) wrote:t > > > @ > > > > djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) wrote in message5 > > news:<DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-6pHkIZkuND00@localhost>...e > > > >lI > > > > > One thing I'm sure of, Posix based threading is nowhere near asdN > > > > > elegant as VAX/ELN's JOB/Process model and the synchronisation tools > > > > > it provides. > > > >r. > > > > Do you care to expound/expand on this? > > >nJ > > > I don't have time at the minute to writwe a long diatribe as I'm offJ > > > to the UK for the rest of the week. Suffice to say for now that withG > > > DecThreads (aka Posix) one is obliged to manipulate a lot of datanF > > > items that ELN does for you. e..g. (from memory I'm at home). toH > > > create an ELN process (thread of execution) within an ELN JOB (VMSJ > > > process), I use CREATE_PROCESS with name, argument. In DecThreads, iJ > > > have to create attributes, assign atttributes, and then I can create3 > > > the Thread. Deleting it all again is similar.e > > > H > > > To synchronise with one or more objects, in ELN I call WAIT_ANY orG > > > WAIT_ALL with a list of things that should be waited for. The ELNdJ > > > kernel does the work. In Threads I have to manipulate more attributeH > > > objects and then handle Mutexes and Condition variables myself. ItJ > > > works but you can see the Unix as opposed to the RSX/VMS heritage of6 > > > ELN. I'm a VMS bigot so what can one expect :-). > > >tJ > > > Oh yes and then there's the little matter of error/status reporting.J > > > ELN's got it, Threads expects you to do it with exceptions. Great ifE > > > you're writing C, there a macros to do it. Not so easy in otheri% > > > languages. My stuff is Fortran.  > > >e% > > > Enough, I've got to get to wok.d > > >l > > > -- > > > Cheers - Dave. > > L > > UNIX heritage of ELN? Am I misunderstanding you here? Yes ELN is lighterM > > weight than VMS (no demand paging, no quotas, no privileges, no security, P > > etc) but there's no real UNIX heritage that I could see - e.g. ELN's got theO > > nice synchronisation you mention (which UNIX didn't) and (iirc) ELN doesn'ti' > > have that basic UNIX concept, fork.k > >  > > 'Twas nice software though.t > G > I parsed Dave's sentence as "Unix [heritage of DECthreads] as opposed  > to RSX/VMS heritage of ELN."  C Just got back from the UK. You got it right John, that's precisely eC what I meant. I have to confess that sitting on the plane there, I M, wondered if I'd been clear enough though :-)   --   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 03 19:02:45 +01001) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)rP Subject: Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses) Message-ID: <f+q05FFxmU8$@elias.decus.ch>   i In article <4f886957.0303070634.3c205e92@posting.google.com>, gary.morin@emergis.com (Gary Morin) writes: C > I have a VAXStation 4000-90 that I use without the display tube. uC > Every time I boot the box it reports a console level error on theeH > graphics board.  Since I was tired of geeting the errors I removed theE > graphics card and when I rebooted all of the VMS licenses failed to = > load.  When I selected the "license requirements" option in E > vmslicense.com it came back with a list that showed that no license F > group is valid.  When I put the card back in everything loaded but I3 > still got the hardware boot error on the console.  >   D I believe that without the graphics board, VMS decides it's a server> rather than workstation, hence requires server level licenses.  . Here's what my Alpha system says, for example:   $ show lic/chargem* VMS/LMF Charge Information for node XXXXXXA This is a Digital Personal WorkStation , hardware model type 1703wO Type: A, Units Required: 12     (VAX/VMS Capacity or OpenVMS Unlimited or Base)h4 Type: B, * Not Permitted *      (VAX/VMS F&A Server)9 Type: C, * Not Permitted *      (VAX/VMS Concurrent User)m5 Type: D, * Not Permitted *      (VAX/VMS Workstation)eD Type: E, * Not Permitted *      (VAX/VMS System Integrated Products)6 Type: F, * Not Permitted *      (VAX Layered Products)* Type: G, * Not Permitted *      (Reserved)8 Type: H, Units Required: 1050   (Alpha Layered Products)2 Type: I, Units Required: 1050   (Layered Products)  E As you can see from the above VAX/VMS Server and Workstation licensess have different license types.6  D > Is there any switch or jumper that will tell this box that it is a7 > valid VAX system without the graphics card installed?l >  I doubt it.i   -- g
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:24:26 +0100 4 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>P Subject: Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses& Message-ID: <3E6A355A.3040408@Free.fr>   No more in Switzerland, Paul?t   D.   Paul Sture wrote:?k > In article <4f886957.0303070634.3c205e92@posting.google.com>, gary.morin@emergis.com (Gary Morin) writes:n ../..u
  > Paul Stureo     -- F)     M O R A N D I   C o n s u l t a n t sc+ 19 chemin de la Butte 31400 Toulouse Francet+ Tl: 33(0)6 7983 6418 Fax: 33(0)5 6154 1928t%         http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fre   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 18:14:45 +0100l6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> Subject: Re: VMS Question???) Message-ID: <3E6A2505.5000309@vajhoej.dk>-   James T. Sprinkle wrote:L > Hi!  I worked with VMS in college several years back on both VAX and AlphaE > architecture.  I am considering getting a hobby copy of VMS and wasdI > wondering if it would work on a DecStation?  Also, anybody know where IbK > could look for used VAX/Alpha hardware at a reasonable price?  Thanks forb > any help!o  5 You can buy a used Alpha for not that much money fromS http://www.islandco.com/.L   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:28:57 +0100s4 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> Subject: VMS/WSFTP?o& Message-ID: <3E6A3669.5060906@Free.fr>  I Is there a WSFTP-like tool running DECWindows to be able to ftp transfer '0 directories and subdirectories in one drag&drop?   Thanks,b   D. -- t)     M O R A N D I   C o n s u l t a n t sm+ 19 chemin de la Butte 31400 Toulouse France + Tl: 33(0)6 7983 6418 Fax: 33(0)5 6154 1928a%         http://Didier.Morandi.Free.frr   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.132 ************************