1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 09 Mar 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 133       Contents:1 Re: $ENQ, blocking/completion AST, race condition ( ANN: GRAB updated in HG/Process archives2 Re: Blackmore comments on OpenVMS in Computerworld6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?1 HobbesNet domain change (formerly Hobbes the VAX) 9 How to I interrupt VMS boot up to get to the SRM console? = Re: How to I interrupt VMS boot up to get to the SRM console? ) Re: hp DECforms V3.3 Product Announcement / Re: Looking for Tektronix XP400 X-terminal info A Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices) A Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % RE: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants , Re: OT:  National Moratorium to Stop the War Re: Portmapping  Re: Portmapping  Re: Portmapping  Re: Portmapping  Re: RMS version number Re: RMS version numberP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda0 Re: UK Hobbyist seeks personality (for BA356-JC)0 Re: UK Hobbyist seeks personality (for BA356-JC) Re: unix Re: VAX again: unix  Re: VAX again: unix G Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses  VMS fails to boot  Re: VMS fails to boot  Re: VMS/WSFTP? Re: VMS/WSFTP? Re: VMS/WSFTP?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2003 05:23:42 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>: Subject: Re: $ENQ, blocking/completion AST, race conditionD Message-ID: <20030308214343.1D5D0E34.NOFFLE@momos.conceptual.net.au>  $ cstranslations@msn.com (Joe) writes:  5 > I'm guessing the answer is yes but I'll ask anyway.    F > Process 1 calls $ENQ and specifies both blocking and completion ast.. > Process 2 calls $ENQ (on the same resource).   1 > Assume all that good race condition type stuff.    ? > Q: Is it with-in the realm of possibility that process 1 will A > receive the blocking ast before it receives the completion ast?   B Yes, if the lock modes are such that they *can* block. IE, if bothA $ENQ NL mode locks, you can never block, so there will never be a @ blocking AST. You may need to grok SYNCCONV bit on $ENQs as well for what you are doing.   D The `best' lock tutorial I know of is the XQP. It has collected most5 of the hairy bits of the lock manager over the years!    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 01:11:57 GMT - From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) 1 Subject: ANN: GRAB updated in HG/Process archives 1 Message-ID: <3e6a9475.182236382@news.process.com>   A Graham Burley's GRAB utility (an enhanced SEARCH utility for VMS) < has been updated.  GRAB 0.23 adds the ability to send output. straight to symbols without resorting to pipe.   http://www.process.com/openvms/   4 ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/grab.zip9 http://vms.process.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/grab.zip 0 ftp://ftp.tmk.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/grab.zip5 http://www.tmk.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/grab.zip    And the usual mirrors.   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ 8 goathunter@goatley.com    http://www.goatley.com/hunter/A New Robert McCammon novel & site: http://www.RobertRMcCammon.com/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 21:01:15 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> ; Subject: Re: Blackmore comments on OpenVMS in Computerworld I Message-ID: <vSsaa.199976$Zr%.22147@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ( news:3E6A101F.BD39EDA@vl.videotron.ca... > Bill Todd wrote:B > > Er, the quote above doesn't say anything about upgrading, just supporting. D > > Now, one *could* interpret support as continued enhancement, but	 one could * > > also interpret it as maintenance only. >  > D > For as much as I distrust HP's intendtions with regards to growing
 VMS etc, I? > think that they promises of continued imporvements to VMS are  credible at % > leats for the next couple of years.   D Until the lack of new customers, brought on by lack of advertising &C marketing, make it a marginal business. Then HP will do to VMS what B Blackmore said about other HP products, "...and retire our assets,@ which we did. It was absolutely the right decision and customers applauded it."  1 With VMS it'll be the sound of one hand clapping.    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 03 20:21:33 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) ? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? ) Message-ID: <21rsA2RAgW06@elias.decus.ch>   n In article <b096a4ee.0303071658.6a8fb7e8@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:\ > p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote in message news:<VgS1FoX92RT7@elias.decus.ch>...q >> In article <b096a4ee.0303021552.620c4608@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:  > [...] J >> >> Eh? I find those two statements contradictory. My view of EDT is theQ >> >> pure default (without the clutter of someone else's ideas, as contained in  N >> >> SYS$MANAGER:EDTINI.TEMPLATE), and almost certainly doesn't look anything >> >> like yours.  >> >  I >> > Well, then you have to compare it with the pure default of EVE! Even K >> > then, EDT wins hands down for me. And even the EVE fans admit that the , >> > default EVE keypad is somewhat lacking. >>  / >> Yes that is a slight pain, and the answer is  >>   >> $ DEFINE EVE$KEYPAD EDT >>  J >> in a your LOGIN.COM (in my system wide startup files on my own system). > F > It doesn't matter what the answer is or how easy it is. You said "MyF > view of EDT is the pure default...". If you're going to insist we goH > with the "pure default" EDT then it is only fair that you judge EVE byD > its "pure default ... wihtout the clutter of someone elses ideas",G > which SET KEYPAD EDT clearly is. So if you allow SET KEYPAD EDT, then , > you should also allow some changes to EDT. > F OK, let's look at EDT in its _pure default_ (on a system which started. out with VMS V7.2 as its initial installation:   $ set def sys$manager 0 $ dir edt*	! no default edtini.ini files to read   Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]    EDTINI.TEMPLATE;1    Total of 1 file.   $ edit/edt test.txt  Input file does not exist  [EOB]  *   F Line mode you see? I've still got to enter C<ENTER> or SET MODE CHANGE  to get it into full screen mode.  
 Touche :-)  E > You might say, "Well, SET KEYPAD EDT is part of EVE" to which I can + > say so are the commands in my setup file.  > H > The relevant question is "Why should I switch?". You said we should go? > the default EDT, so I simply countered about the default EVE.  >   ? I am not asking you to switch. I am one of those who uses both, 	 remember?   F And yes, someone else in an earlier posting reminded me of another use= I have for EDT - that of being able to delete the end of line 8 "character" from within a macro or via a key definition.   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2003 12:23:17 -0800 ) From: admin@hobbesnet.org (Scott Squires) : Subject: HobbesNet domain change (formerly Hobbes the VAX)= Message-ID: <fd3f27cd.0303081223.75629392@posting.google.com>   = FYI, the HobbesNet administration is allowing the domain name D hobbesthevax.com to expire.  We have not used this domain officiallyE for a couple years.  Our two official domains are <server>.thevax.org E and www.hobbesnet.org.  hobbesthevax.com will expire on 6 April 2003.   5 HobbesNet offers free accounts on VMS systems.  Visit / http://www.hobbesnet.org/ for more information.    Regards,
 Scott Squires  HobbesNet Administrator    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 22:47:39 GMT + From: Ray Zimmerman <raz5150@sbcglobal.net> B Subject: How to I interrupt VMS boot up to get to the SRM console?, Message-ID: <3E6A7361.9080905@sbcglobal.net>  G I recently got a MicroVAX 3100-40 (for free). It came with OpenVMS 7.2  G already installed, but it fails during boot up. I'd like to just start  F over with a fresh installation, but I don't know how to interrupt the > boot process so that I can "boot dka400" from the SRM console.  H I've check FAQ's and other documentation, but haven't been able to find 
 an answer.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 00:38:21 GMT 1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> F Subject: Re: How to I interrupt VMS boot up to get to the SRM console?2 Message-ID: <3E6A8C0C.16102B5B@firstdbasource.com>   Ray Zimmerman wrote: > H > I recently got a MicroVAX 3100-40 (for free). It came with OpenVMS 7.2H > already installed, but it fails during boot up. I'd like to just startG > over with a fresh installation, but I don't know how to interrupt the @ > boot process so that I can "boot dka400" from the SRM console. > I > I've check FAQ's and other documentation, but haven't been able to find  > an answer.    C Push in the HALT button or after seeing the "jump bootstrap" on the  console type <CTRL>P   >>> show auto_actionc >>> set auto_action HALT    !this will prevent it from "automatically rebooting after power up/init  >>> b dka400   --   Regards,  6 Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 19847 First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 22:42:45 GMT - From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> 2 Subject: Re: hp DECforms V3.3 Product Announcement+ Message-ID: <3E6A71E4.3050401@peoplepc.com>    JF Mezei wrote: P > I start off with an experience of just about every Digital product I have everJ > purchased being end-of-lifed, so I am quite weary of any that do remain. > P > Is there a consensus on whether DECforms is still truly strategic, or are theyR > keeping it just barely alive for the existing customer base ? (a bit like FMS) ? > P > I am not talking about end of support. Just future development, marketing etc.    = Boy, do I hear you !  Our portfolio of products is certainly  
 shrinking.  ; We are about to "make the jump to light speed" and need to  < re-write several internal apps.  The end users would love a < web interface, but quite frankly most of the programmers on = staff (including me) are old 3GLers and the thought of Java,   etc, etc scares me to death.  = We have been trying to use X/Motif interfaces because 99% of  : the end users have Hummingbird Exceed X Display Server (a ; great product), but the "look and feel" is a bit different   then a typical windows app.   = So my question is, have any one ever built anything with the  ; DECforms Web Connector.  It is still stuck a V3.0 which is  = now over 30 months old.  Sounds like another dead product to   me !   --    
 Jack Patteeuw    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 23:27:01 GMT / From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> 8 Subject: Re: Looking for Tektronix XP400 X-terminal info( Message-ID: <3E6A7C4B.6060009@uiowa.edu>  	 JK wrote:  > Hi there,  > L > I can not locate any information (manuals/software) to use for a tektronix > XP-400 X-terminal.> > I bought it second hand, the seller did not give any related > software/manuals.  > (I asked fot it also)  > M > It has a decnet license, and would like to use it (@ HOME) as a terminal to  > my VMS system.  G You will need the server software (not very cheap at all for home use!) J running on Unix, OpenVMS or Windows with which to boot the X-Term and then5 serve the needed X11 files, fonts, applications, etc.   E You can find some info from NCD now (they bought the Tektronix Video  J division).  The XP400 uses ExpressWare on VMS.  I know we had to pay about $800-1000 for a license.  L Their official software now is called NCBridge.  I think it will support the7 older XP200 and XP400 as well as the NC* terminals too.   5 	http://www.ncd.com/products/hardware/ncs/bridge.html  	 
 Rick Dyson         --  J Richard L. Dyson                                      rick-dyson@uiowa.eduK   _   _  _____                      http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/ J | | | ||_   _|  Senior Systems Analyst   --   INFORMM-Cerner Systems Group< | | | |  | |    The University of Iowa Hospitals and ClinicsJ | \_/ | _| |_   Information Systems Dept. BT1000 GH   Office: 319/384-7016K   \___/ |_____|  Iowa City, IA 52242-1052                 FAX: 319/384-7020 E                  (Consulting to the Physics and Astronomy Department)    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 03 21:16:46 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) J Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)) Message-ID: <buEeIUuzPMId@elias.decus.ch>   [ In article <3E695A6A.FDE8B11F@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote:	 >> [snip] J >> I did a comparison of this last year. If I can find the e-mail at work,B >> I'll forward it to myself at home and post the good parts here. >  > O.k. Here's the text...  > . >> ... here is a brief list of shortcomings inL >> "TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS", hereinafter referred to by its former (andL >> shorter) name, "UCX". Multinet still gets my vote - UCX has a *LONG*(!!!)3 >> way to go to reach feature parity with Multinet.   H But licensing costs also come into it. I haven't seen a single new AlphaE in the past 5 years or so which didn't come with TCP/IP bundled in as & part of the hardware/software package.  & You also need to update your document.   >>  J >> For starters, a simple search of the command tables shows that MultinetK >> provides some twenty-one(21) separate DCL verbs, while UCX provides only  >> thirteen(13). >>    ? But that is not necessarily a true indicator of the underlying   functionality.  F >> UCX does not provide spooled devices. Standard practice through andM >> including UCX V4 was to start up LAT and create LAT devices which are then L >> spooled through the UCX$TELNETSYM or UCX$LPD_SMB symbiont queues in orderJ >> to provide targets for those applications which must print to a device.T >> (Remember: The system on which (an application) runs is probably not dedicated toJ >> a single application, due to the nature of the industry and the need to+ >> contain costs by consolidating systems.)  >>  J >> For print queues where the target receives data via the "LPD" protocol,8 >> UCX does not provide a device as can be created usingK >> TELNET/CREATE_SESSION. So, the LAT strategy must still be used for those 2 >> situations where applications ... would need to0 >> target a device in order to be able to print. >>  , >> Multinet provides for SSH - UCX does not. >>    A See this week's announcement about the TCP/IP Early Adopter's Kit   2 >> Multinet provides a WHOIS client. UCX does not. >>  K >> UCX still uses dynamic route discovery, which can lead to hung sessions, M >> data loss and denial of access. Multinet uses static routes which are more * >> reliable and less management intensive. >>    I Don't know, but please remember that TCP/IP Services does not necessarily = do things the same way as UCX did (it was ported from Tru64).   ; >> Multinet provides NFS in the base product. UCX does not.  >>    C Out of date. I was using NFS both as a client and server at least 5 
 years ago.  ; >> Multinet provides NTP in the base product. UCX does not.  >>  < >> Multinet provides TFTP in the base product. UCX does not. >>  
 Both untrue.    E >> Multinet provides a TALK client in the base product. UCX does not.  >>  J >> Multinet provides Remote Magtape functionality in the base product. UCX >> does not. >>  M >> Multinet provides RSHELL and RUSERS in the base product in addition to RPC 0 >> and RLOGIN. UCX provides only RPC and RLOGIN. >>  K >> MULTINET SHOW/CONNECTIONS/SNMP allows the display of active listeners on : >> an SNMP-enabled station. UCX does not provide for SNMP. >>  0 TCP/IP Services does have SNMP support nowadays.  I >> Additionally, the UCX management interface is a joke - and has changed K >> little since V3. Multinet's is better, though it also leaves one wanting 0 >> for a better way to manage certain functions. >>  I >> Note also that additional licenses may be required to activate certain , >> features that are included with Multinet. >>  * >> Sorry, but Multinet still gets my vote. >>  = >> Again, I would recommend that *ALL* applications ... be as K >> "stack-neutral" as possible with regard to TCP/IP. An application should K >> not need to care whether the underlying IP stack is TCPware, Multinet or M >> UCX. If it does, you're probably doing something that could be done better H >> and more reliably in a transparent way which requires less management
 >> effort. >>  6 >> Which of the above features are important to *US*?  >>  L >> *ALL* of them! When you need it, you got it. There's nothing like needingL >> something and finding your hands tied to make you appreciate the benefitsI >> of a rich feature set! After all, that's why we're on VMS in the first 	 >> place!  > D > That's the important part. I snipped the rest and censored some to > protect the not-so-innocent. >   D On the other side of the coin, it would take us a colossal effort to/ go the other way (TCP/IP Services to Multinet).    --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 18:58:14 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> J Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)' Message-ID: <3E6A91A6.2E642234@fsi.net>    Paul Sture wrote:  > ] > In article <3E695A6A.FDE8B11F@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > >> [snip] L > >> I did a comparison of this last year. If I can find the e-mail at work,D > >> I'll forward it to myself at home and post the good parts here. > >  > > O.k. Here's the text...  > > 0 > >> ... here is a brief list of shortcomings inN > >> "TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS", hereinafter referred to by its former (andN > >> shorter) name, "UCX". Multinet still gets my vote - UCX has a *LONG*(!!!)5 > >> way to go to reach feature parity with Multinet.  > J > But licensing costs also come into it. I haven't seen a single new AlphaG > in the past 5 years or so which didn't come with TCP/IP bundled in as ( > part of the hardware/software package.  . Doesn't make up for missing key functionality.  ( > You also need to update your document.  G This is from an e-mail to vendor from last summer. Some items are bound  to be a bit dated.   > >>L > >> For starters, a simple search of the command tables shows that MultinetM > >> provides some twenty-one(21) separate DCL verbs, while UCX provides only  > >> thirteen(13). > >> > @ > But that is not necessarily a true indicator of the underlying > functionality.   Weak argument.   > >> [snip] . > >> Multinet provides for SSH - UCX does not. > >> > C > See this week's announcement about the TCP/IP Early Adopter's Kit   < SSH in UCX V5.next is client-only. No server on the horizon.  4 > >> Multinet provides a WHOIS client. UCX does not. > >>M > >> UCX still uses dynamic route discovery, which can lead to hung sessions, O > >> data loss and denial of access. Multinet uses static routes which are more , > >> reliable and less management intensive. > >> > K > Don't know, but please remember that TCP/IP Services does not necessarily ? > do things the same way as UCX did (it was ported from Tru64).   H Actually, unless this has changed in the last 18 mos., I've been at moreF than one presentation which stated that TCP/IP Services and Tru64's IP stack share a common code base.   = > >> Multinet provides NFS in the base product. UCX does not.  > >> > E > Out of date. I was using NFS both as a client and server at least 5  > years ago. > = > >> Multinet provides NTP in the base product. UCX does not.  > >>> > >> Multinet provides TFTP in the base product. UCX does not. > >> >  > Both untrue.  F Both verified accurate. Key phrase: "Base product". Note, however that< this may have changed since the memo was originally written.  G > >> Multinet provides a TALK client in the base product. UCX does not.  > >>L > >> Multinet provides Remote Magtape functionality in the base product. UCX > >> does not. > >>O > >> Multinet provides RSHELL and RUSERS in the base product in addition to RPC 2 > >> and RLOGIN. UCX provides only RPC and RLOGIN. > >>M > >> MULTINET SHOW/CONNECTIONS/SNMP allows the display of active listeners on < > >> an SNMP-enabled station. UCX does not provide for SNMP. > >> > 2 > TCP/IP Services does have SNMP support nowadays.  F Now, but not when the memo was originally written, Multinet has had itG since at least 1999 which is when I first used it to explore situations & involving JetDirect cards and servers.  F > On the other side of the coin, it would take us a colossal effort to1 > go the other way (TCP/IP Services to Multinet).   F Shouldn't. The biggest headaches are the print queues and user-defined services, AFAIK.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2003 13:00:56 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) . Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)3 Message-ID: <EvvthQBVSc6v@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3E6A206B.2FBD001E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:   J > *THAT* is why I'm considering offering a cash reward for such info. If IJ > were to win the Lottery (the Multi-state "Mega Millions" was $28 millionG > last night, IIRC), I'd offer a substantial bounty to put some serious 5 > pressure on the hand-sitters at OpenVMS Marketing.   > J > ...and I'd post notice of it to Carly's comments page. Imagine a privateI > party offering a $1 million bounty for a verifiable sighting of OpenVMS G > advertising in a mainstream trade rag. I'd bet *THAT* would get their  > attention!   Oh, _trade_ magazine...   C ...I was already scouting out how cheaply I could place a VMS ad in @ a national square dance magazine to see if I could make a profit collecting your prize :-)    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 14:08:40 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> . Subject: RE: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D9DE6@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Larry,  G >>> ...I was already scouting out how cheaply I could place a VMS ad in % a national square dance magazine ..<<   @ You should know better than to try and dance around the issue ..   :-)   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)  OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM    -----Original Message-----7 From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net]=20  Sent: March 8, 2003 2:01 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com . Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)    ; In article <3E6A206B.2FBD001E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:   H > *THAT* is why I'm considering offering a cash reward for such info. If  G > I were to win the Lottery (the Multi-state "Mega Millions" was $28=20 J > million last night, IIRC), I'd offer a substantial bounty to put some=20< > serious pressure on the hand-sitters at OpenVMS Marketing. >=20E > ...and I'd post notice of it to Carly's comments page. Imagine a=20 I > private party offering a $1 million bounty for a verifiable sighting=20 H > of OpenVMS advertising in a mainstream trade rag. I'd bet *THAT* would   > get their attention!   Oh, _trade_ magazine...   D ..I was already scouting out how cheaply I could place a VMS ad in a> national square dance magazine to see if I could make a profit collecting your prize :-)    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 03 22:39:59 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) . Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)) Message-ID: <TM0KmBxinI2f@elias.decus.ch>   c In article <EvvthQBVSc6v@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: ] > In article <3E6A206B.2FBD001E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > K >> *THAT* is why I'm considering offering a cash reward for such info. If I K >> were to win the Lottery (the Multi-state "Mega Millions" was $28 million H >> last night, IIRC), I'd offer a substantial bounty to put some serious6 >> pressure on the hand-sitters at OpenVMS Marketing.  >>  K >> ...and I'd post notice of it to Carly's comments page. Imagine a private J >> party offering a $1 million bounty for a verifiable sighting of OpenVMSH >> advertising in a mainstream trade rag. I'd bet *THAT* would get their
 >> attention!  >  > Oh, _trade_ magazine...  > E > ...I was already scouting out how cheaply I could place a VMS ad in B > a national square dance magazine to see if I could make a profit > collecting your prize :-)   * I was thinking along similar lines too :-)  F But, in either 1979 or 1980, my employers took out a full page spread B in one of the UK Sunday papers (which had good business readershipB figures). The advertising space alone came to approximately twenty times my annual salary.      --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 00:07:23 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"). Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)6 Message-ID: <00A1C915.44E1D7F2@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  c In article <EvvthQBVSc6v@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: \ >In article <3E6A206B.2FBD001E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: > K >> *THAT* is why I'm considering offering a cash reward for such info. If I K >> were to win the Lottery (the Multi-state "Mega Millions" was $28 million H >> last night, IIRC), I'd offer a substantial bounty to put some serious6 >> pressure on the hand-sitters at OpenVMS Marketing.  >>  K >> ...and I'd post notice of it to Carly's comments page. Imagine a private J >> party offering a $1 million bounty for a verifiable sighting of OpenVMSH >> advertising in a mainstream trade rag. I'd bet *THAT* would get their
 >> attention!  >  >Oh, _trade_ magazine... > D >...I was already scouting out how cheaply I could place a VMS ad inA >a national square dance magazine to see if I could make a profit  >collecting your prize :-)  K Is there still a national square dance magazine?  I thought _Sets in Order_  folded years ago.   C You could probably advertise nationally in _Analog_ pretty cheaply.    -- Alan     O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025 O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 18:44:14 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> . Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)& Message-ID: <3E6A8E5E.36DC8D8@fsi.net>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote:L > > *THAT* is why I'm considering offering a cash reward for such info. If IL > > were to win the Lottery (the Multi-state "Mega Millions" was $28 millionI > > last night, IIRC), I'd offer a substantial bounty to put some serious 6 > > pressure on the hand-sitters at OpenVMS Marketing. > P > Actually, how would HP react if someone were to pay for a VMS advertisement inF > the wall street journal, one which also clearly states how HP is notO > leveraging an asset which could be quite profitable and give HP a distinctive  > edge over competitors ?   E All it really takes is an official "partner" who has the right to use C the trademarks, tradenames, etc. to put an ad out touting their own = VMS-based solutions and focusing on VMS's advantages over the F alternatives. (Alpha is viewed as dead by the market-at-large, so that4 would not be a good thing to try and sell just now.)  P > If HP were then to counter with a lawsuit, that publicity would againt put VMS( > in the limelight and make HP look bad.  / Are *YOU* willing to accept the financial risk?   % > Either way, VMS would get exposure.   H ...as a secondary issue. I'd rather focus on VMS than on anyone's rights& to use (whatever) in an advertisement.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 18:53:01 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> . Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)' Message-ID: <3E6A906D.EC3BF038@fsi.net>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3E6A206B.2FBD001E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > L > > *THAT* is why I'm considering offering a cash reward for such info. If IL > > were to win the Lottery (the Multi-state "Mega Millions" was $28 millionI > > last night, IIRC), I'd offer a substantial bounty to put some serious 6 > > pressure on the hand-sitters at OpenVMS Marketing. > > L > > ...and I'd post notice of it to Carly's comments page. Imagine a privateK > > party offering a $1 million bounty for a verifiable sighting of OpenVMS I > > advertising in a mainstream trade rag. I'd bet *THAT* would get their  > > attention! >  > Oh, _trade_ magazine...  > E > ...I was already scouting out how cheaply I could place a VMS ad in B > a national square dance magazine to see if I could make a profit > collecting your prize :-)   G Well, in that rag, I'm sure an ad for Voluntary Milking System would be  nominally well received..    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 20:26:34 -0500 & From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@rcn.com>. Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)< Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030308201422.087c8ba0@pop.rcn.com>  9 At 12:07 AM 3/9/2003 +0000, Alan Winston wrote (in part): K >In article <EvvthQBVSc6v@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net   >(Larry Kilgallen) writes:? > >In article <3E6A206B.2FBD001E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"  ! > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:    [snip]   > > F > >...I was already scouting out how cheaply I could place a VMS ad inC > >a national square dance magazine to see if I could make a profit  > >collecting your prize :-) > L >Is there still a national square dance magazine?  I thought _Sets in Order_ >folded years ago. > D >You could probably advertise nationally in _Analog_ pretty cheaply.  H Let's see ... for the general square dance population there is American J Square Dance Magazine <http://www.squaredance.ws/asd/index.asp> or Square A Dancing Today <http://www.squaredancingtoday.com/>. For the more 2* experienced dancer there is The Zip Coder L <http://www.bcpl.net/~lrodoff/home/zip/> (most of the dancers who read this D magazine are very technical in nature and may be in the position to  influence their companies).m  K And to the person who suggested that all square dancers are hicks, that is r	 not true.o  K I have been square dancing almost 25 years and it actually helped me get a t@ job in 1984 at Bellcore when they needed a VMS System Manager...   Ken Robinson kenrbnsn@rbnsn.comK Currently Unemployed VMS System Manager Consultant (resume can be found at  # my web site <http://www.rbnsn.com/>r   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:32:11 GMT  From: tutor@nospam.cfl.rr.come. Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)8 Message-ID: <pbdl6vs60rs91pqgh8jjbttua6f98v4760@4ax.com>  3 heck, if there weren't so many out of work vax'ers, 2 i bet we could raise the money in no time at all !  B feel free to email me at tutor@nospam.cfl.rr.com   (you'll have to edit out the no spam part ;-)t    7 On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 18:44:14 -0600, "David J. Dachtera"  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   >JF Mezei wrote: >> t >> "David J. Dachtera" wrote:iM >> > *THAT* is why I'm considering offering a cash reward for such info. If I M >> > were to win the Lottery (the Multi-state "Mega Millions" was $28 milliontJ >> > last night, IIRC), I'd offer a substantial bounty to put some serious7 >> > pressure on the hand-sitters at OpenVMS Marketing.: >> oQ >> Actually, how would HP react if someone were to pay for a VMS advertisement intG >> the wall street journal, one which also clearly states how HP is notaP >> leveraging an asset which could be quite profitable and give HP a distinctive >> edge over competitors ? >iF >All it really takes is an official "partner" who has the right to useD >the trademarks, tradenames, etc. to put an ad out touting their own> >VMS-based solutions and focusing on VMS's advantages over theG >alternatives. (Alpha is viewed as dead by the market-at-large, so thati5 >would not be a good thing to try and sell just now.)y > Q >> If HP were then to counter with a lawsuit, that publicity would againt put VMS ) >> in the limelight and make HP look bad.i >u0 >Are *YOU* willing to accept the financial risk? >l& >> Either way, VMS would get exposure. > I >...as a secondary issue. I'd rather focus on VMS than on anyone's rights ' >to use (whatever) in an advertisement.-   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2003 21:35:35 -0600m- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)c. Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)3 Message-ID: <I2e8zJWUEg$t@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  Z In article <3E6A8E5E.36DC8D8@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: > JF Mezei wrote:w >>   >> "David J. Dachtera" wrote:sM >> > *THAT* is why I'm considering offering a cash reward for such info. If I M >> > were to win the Lottery (the Multi-state "Mega Millions" was $28 million J >> > last night, IIRC), I'd offer a substantial bounty to put some serious7 >> > pressure on the hand-sitters at OpenVMS Marketing.i >>  Q >> Actually, how would HP react if someone were to pay for a VMS advertisement in G >> the wall street journal, one which also clearly states how HP is notkP >> leveraging an asset which could be quite profitable and give HP a distinctive >> edge over competitors ? > G > All it really takes is an official "partner" who has the right to use E > the trademarks, tradenames, etc. to put an ad out touting their own ? > VMS-based solutions and focusing on VMS's advantages over the  > alternatives.   G As I recall Northern Light did that, but their parent company just wentd	 bankrupt.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 22:14:14 GMTu% From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Message-ID: <3E6A6B15.F218A66@pacbell.net>   Bill Todd wrote: > 4 > "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message' > news:3E69230B.BF22404D@pacbell.net...  > >h > >r > > Bill Todd wrote: > > >e8 > > > "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message* > > > news:3E69119D.ECEED45@pacbell.net... >  > ...h >  > > >  So it's not just thisL > > > > administration that ignores important parts of the Constitution, butD > > > > every administration - Demo & Rep alike - for some 50 years. > > >.J > > > Leaving aside the *other* critical portions of the Constitution that > thisN > > > Administration has been ignoring with relish, as I noted above there areL > > > signifant areas of grey in the majority of examples you provided which > do3 > > > not pertain to the proposed invasion of Iraq.b > >cJ > > Nor do those *other* critical portions of the Constitution you mention- > > pertain to the proposed invasion of Iraq.  > E > You opened the door to generalization about 'important parts of the M > Constitution' - I just observed that somewhat more of that document appearsfA > to be under siege by the current Administration than by others.9  H No, you opened that door with your last paragraph of the letter you sent to your congressman. To wit:D "A major reason why we have three co-equal branches of government in thisG country is to provide checks when one of them starts to run amuck.  The G decision to wage war is very specifically vested in the Congress by our A Constitution, a document that seems to be considered increasingly 
 irrelevantE by this Administration.  It's time for the Congress to step up to the  platet/ and do its duty, uncomfortable as that may be."t     > ! >  But I say again your argumentsiK > > are all basically semantical and contrived by those who never wanted tor# > > face a declaration of war vote.t > H > Only to varying degrees.  I'm not sure that Somalia qualified in *any*M > manner, for example.  But I wouldn't take issue with a stance that required3/ > Congressional support for most of the others.a >  Ok. We agree on that.i   > ...- > L > > > Are you advocating that the Constitution be changed, or just followed? > >n@ > > Big, big question. A few years back (6-7) I wrote a sweeping: > > constitutional amendment that addresses just that (see+ > > http://alphase.com/newusa/newusa.html).V > H > I'm afraid that what I admit is a cursory examination of your proposed= > alternative only gives me greater respect for the original.t  G It's always easire to throw stones than to build anew. What I attemptedw was to build anew.   >  And II > emphatically disagree with your contention that it has become seriouslyYJ > dated in any significant manner (I do have some doubts about whether anyN > right to bear arms would have been included had a standing army been assumed5 > to exist, but don't consider that a major problem).m  B As I said, this is really off-off topic and deserves a much largerH discussion than I prepared to do in this NG. Don't get me wrong. I wouldH love to debate every line of that document with you and others, but this isn't the time or place.   -- y   Have VMS, Will Travelm Wire paladin, San Franciscoo   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 22:37:34 GMT % From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net>o: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <3E6A708D.6983EF00@pacbell.net>h   John Smith wrote:e > 4 > "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message' > news:3E692625.BE37CB7C@pacbell.net...K > >' > >k > > Arne Vajhj wrote: > > >o > > > Don Sykes wrote:H > > > >          If anything, "our masses" are exposed to other cultures > far 1 > > > > more than those in the rest of the world.t > > >$ > > > Are you sure about that ?T > > G > > Yes, but the difference is other cultures come to us - on their ownE > > accord I might add. H > > Of course nowadays Europe has had a migration too, but they're still > waye, > > behind in terms of the immigrant influx. > >E > > >D: > > > How large a percentage of americans has been outside > > > the US ?F > > While I might agree that a smaller % of Americans has been outside > ofF > > the US, than say the Swiss, I'd say the Swiss don't have far to go > toD > > get outside. Indeed anywhere in Europe is close. If however yourH > > comparing our travels to the vast world population, I'd say a lot of > usH > > have journeyed to other countries. How many of the 1B Chineese or 1BG > > Indians have traveled outside their countries. Or, how many Iraqi's 	 > > have?- > >- > > >-9 > > > How large a percentage of americans speak a foreigns > > > language ? > > @ > > About 30%. Mostly Spanish, but most other languages are wellH > > represented. I know here in San Francisco, the voting ballots are inG > > about 7 languages. My children speak 3. I speak 1+1/2 plus C, Java,x > > Cobol, etc.t > C > Those who frequent comp.os.vms are generally a different breed ofnA > person than the US population at large - usually well educated,m@ > usually well paid (although always not enough), intellectuallyA > curious, often knowledgeable at a deep level of a wide range ofi > subjects.d >   F Ah ha! A statement with which I fully agree. While I may disagree with9 some, I respect the group's knowledge and sophistication.a  
 > Quick...F > How many Americans know which country is the largest trading partner > with the US?@ > Which country is the largest single supplier of oil to the US?5 > http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw246.shtmld7 > How many know the answer to both questions is Canada.tG > How many know Canadians *can* choose their own doctors, see them whenpG > they need to, and that *all* Canadians have health insurance from the ) > day they are born til the day they die?uE > Not too many given the selective nature in which the US media skews-B > accurate reporting of the truth in order to curry favor with the1 > Administration and their own political agendas.n  G I knew Canada was our largest trading partner, but I didn't know it wasB6 the largest oil supplier, so I learned something new. G As far as the health care system, I think many US'ns (can't really calllD us Americans vis-a-vis Canadians) were educated to that system a few: years back (93) when we almost had sweeping reforms here. C Note: when it comes to health care I am not a backer of the current D administration's ideas on the subject. I am one who believes we need some big changes 'down here'..E But, I think this discussion is getting way off the mark. I don't seeh: how this supports the position of the myopic left on Iraq.     > E > There is a lot the average US citizen doesn't see in a balanced andeE > enlightened point of view. Quality publications like The Nation and B > The Atlantic Monthly are pilloried by the right, tagged with theE > epithet of 'liberal'. Broaden your horizons - challenge yourself toaC > pick a copy of each of these up and read them from cover to cover G > sometime, just as 'liberals' should read 'The New Republic' from time.H > to time. If enough people took the time to educate themselves with theD > facts rather than the spin, then perhaps there can be reasoned andD > rational debate about important matters, and progressive solutionsH > that benefit all Americans. Until that happens, Americans will, sadly,' > be led by the nose via 'sound bites'.i  G I don't really disagree here at all. Many Americans, indeed all peoplesoH of the world, need to listen and think more about important subjects andD not rely on single source information. I always try to listen to allF sides. In fact I find opposing views far more interesting in the senseH that they make me formulate my thoughts more clearly, all of which leadsF me to the conclusion that the US, British, Spanish, Bulgarian position8 is correct: i.e. Saddam and the Baath party must go now.   -- n   Have VMS, Will Travelt Wire paladin, San Francisco    (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 23:28:13 GMTb% From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net>a: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Message-ID: <3E6A7C6D.3FECFEA@pacbell.net>  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: >  > In article <00A1C85B.C093BD4F@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes::e > >In article <3E693A7E.EA9E6118@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:X > >>Shane Smith wrote:N > >>> butt of countless comedy sketches. Even here. And America is not exposedG > >>> to other cultures as much as other cultures are exposed to yours.X > >>4 > >>Why can't teh USa actually show original films ?! > >>      La Totale --> True Lies = > >>      Trois hommes et un couffin --> three men and a babywR > >>      La Cage aux Folles --> (oops, forgot the american knockoff) (Birdcage ?) > >vQ > >Because we're illiterates who don't speak French and who can't read subtitles.d > P > On second thought, I'll be fair. La Cage aux Folles ran in art theatres in theM > US for a long, long time, in  French, with subtitles.  Probably hundreds ofVO > thousands of Americans saw it.  (It was then adapted into an Broadway musicaltP > in English, set in France.  And then it was adapted into a silly American film > set in Miami.) >  > >>There is a long list.s > >>< > >>Has any american ever heard Cline Dion sing in French ? >  > Is it any less painful?k   Great line, Alan!    > A > >>Remember 99-luft-balons ? In the USA, it was 99 red balloons.u > >>P > >>Why did Chris Carter have to spend so much money to make Vancouver look likeP > >>"anytown USA" ? Because he know that his X-files would never catch on in theN > >>USA if they used Vancouver as the real city where the stories are set. So,R > >>whenever they shoot a scene, they drop all canadian flags, hide  postal boxes,7 > >>licence plates etc, and put up fake US equivalents.o > >i, > >What would the FBI be doing in Vancouver?   Another good one!-   -- -   Have VMS, Will Travel6 Wire paladin, San Franciscoa   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 23:35:22 GMT % From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net>h: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <3E6A7E1A.A1A1B22A@pacbell.net>v   JF Mezei wrote:t >  > Bill Todd wrote:H > > You're really stretching on this one.  The show is aimed at the U.S.B > > audience, and is therefore about the FBI rather than the RCMP. > O > Which comes back to the original point that US audiences do not consume stuff/L > that originates from abroad in terms of TV/movies. They'll consume foreignH > music as long as it is in english, with a few exceptions now and then. > N > Elsewhere in the world, folks have no problems consuming programming that isP > set in various locations in the world. But the insular nature of the USA meansL > that a self-perpetuated "only in the USA" mentality exists, and because itO > exists, the big media outlets don't risk putting on foreign shows and becausehF > they don't take that risk, the insular nature strenghtens even more.  H I don't agree. I think that's the general impression, but I rather thinkG it's driven by the media moguls. In other words I think where the "only.B in the USA" mentality exists is more in the minds of the big mediaF outlets than in the public. I think the public is a lot more accepting than they are given credit for.h   > F > Did you know that many of the most popular shows in the USA actuallyP > originated abroad (Three's company, Who wants to be a millionaire etc etc) butP > the USA decided to make their own copy instead of buying the existing show (in" > the above cases, from england) ?   Not, Have Gun, Will Travelc -- b Have VMS, Will Travel. Wire paladin, San Francisco    (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 23:41:52 GMTe% From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net>o: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <3E6A7FA0.C7B88AEB@pacbell.net>t  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: > d > In article <3E695504.1FBC94F6@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:- > >Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:W6 > >> >Why can't teh USa actually show original films ?$ > >> >       La Totale --> True Lies@ > >> >       Trois hommes et un couffin --> three men and a babyU > >> >       La Cage aux Folles --> (oops, forgot the american knockoff) (Birdcage ?)' > >>S > >> Because we're illiterates who don't speak French and who can't read subtitles.w > > Q > >You'd be surprised how dubbing works. In Qubec, the government forced the bigtQ > >movie distributors to release the french version of movies at the same time asaP > >english originals. The distributors cried foul. But guess what, ? Since then,N > >they've been able to release both version "on-time" at the sime time as the > >rest of north america.e > M > I've seen a lot of really annoyingly-badly-dubbed movies, and I much preferv > subtitles.  E I agree. Hearing the language, even if you don't fully understand it,iG gives you a better sense of the emotions and culture it is bound in. It>F also helps you to understand another language. Maybe understand is tooG large a term, but it at least gives you the flavo(u)r and rhythm of thea	 language.n   <snipo>n -- o   Have VMS, Will Travel/ Wire paladin, San Franciscop   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 23:24:11 GMTl% From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net>h: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <3E6A7B7A.F267B9DF@pacbell.net>d   Bill Todd wrote: > 4 > "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message' > news:3E693336.5BA0FEF1@pacbell.net...u > >t > >s > > Bill Todd wrote: > > >A8 > > > "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message+ > > > news:3E691A7F.DCE89EC2@pacbell.net...t > > > >  > > > >a > > > > Shane Smith wrote: >  > ...e > J > > > > > If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be > about.M > > > > > America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wish  > moreM > > > > > average Americans traveled and actually lived in other places for aeK > > > > > while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them more respecth > foroM > > > > > other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how muchi > ofK > > > > > what they think of as basic truths are actually American culturalhM > > > > > opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I've hade > overK > > > > > here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent among theiK > > > > > American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now,l > after * > > > > > the attacks, it's getting worse.	 > > > > >  > > > > > Shane  > > > >8L > > > > How is it then that we are BY FAR the most diverse country on earth. > > >rD > > > It is because ethnic diversity in no way guarantees breadth of > viewpoint.J > > > In part this is because new immigrants are proud to be here and make > activeM > > > efforts to adopt what seem to be existing norms:  they may retain large M > > > elements of their *ethnic* identity, and even of the *personal culturaliH > > > identity* of their countries of origin, but that doesn't mean they > retainM > > > the foreign *attitudes*, because they don't want to consider themselveso= > > > 'foreign' after moving here, they want to be Americans.r > > J > > What's your point? I simply said, we're more diverse than anyone else. > L > No.  By asking "How is it then..." you clearly suggested that this somehow6 > refuted Shane's observations about our insularity.    @ That was a rhetorical question and did not call for a response.    > My point was that it didN > not (and given that, it's not clear what the relevance of your statement wasJ > supposed to be - unless you indeed mistakenly felt that it constituted a > refutation).  E *My* statement was irrelevant? I think you mean your statements aboutrC ethnic, personal and foreign cultures were basically gibberish, but H unlike you, I often try to be polite and good natured in my debates. You0 are often angry and insulting in your responses.   >  > ...l > M > > > > The closed mindedness you attribute to the "American masses" is foundnN > > > > everywhere else in the world too. The close-minded and un-traveled areJ > > > > often myopic in their world view, but that IN NO WAY is limited to > thoseo > > > > in the US. > > >oN > > > Of course it isn't.  But that in no way refutes Shane's observation that! > > > *we* are incredibly myopic,h > >l= > > Then why are there so many Americans that think like you?l > I > Because out of nearly 300,000,000 people here it would be surprising ifeL > there were not.  On average, however, we're indeed incredibly myopic:  the' > proof is in the politicians we elect.y  1 You mean of course the Clinons & Kennedys, right?    >  >  I think we arenL > > less myopic than most and the proof is in this very exchange between two > > Americans! > L > Two out of close to 300,000,000 hardly constitutes proof.  Even 20,000,000% > out of nearly 300,000,000 wouldn't.  >  > > 4 > > > and while it may make that more understandableG > > > the obvious comment to be made is that if we're no better in thisu	 > respectsM > > > than the rest of the world, we shouldn't expect to exercise any unusual & > > > degree of leadership or control. > >a( > > So who should? France? Russia? Iraq? > M > No one, of course - not unless they would do so a lot more responsibly thani > we're doing these days.i > B > > I know you will say the UN, but we are part of that forum too. > K > Exactly.  And working *as part of that forum* is what we should be doing.e > 	 >  As areLL > > the Brits. And of all the countries in that body, I for one, think we're4 > > pretty on target in keeping with its principles. > I > Not when we tell it that we're going our own way regardless of what thedG > world community thinks.  As was observed on the floor of the SecuritysL > Council today, that body *itself* functions as a democracy (a democracy ofM > nations) with an established body of laws, and stepping outside those laws,eF > as we are proposing to do, is incompatible with a true commitment to > democracy. >  > ...  >  > > > > I hate to label anyone,  > > >oL > > > But don't seem to have made any real effort to analyse what Shane said > > > before doing so. > >d< > > I think I addressed his warmed-over rhetoric quite well. > F > And I think you give yourself far too much credit, since in fact youN > advanced *nothing* to refute it (the closest you came was the "everyone else  > is just as bad" non-argument).  F Well I guess your just not listening. I've made a lot of points within3 these sub-threads, but you don't want to hear them.a   >  > >  > > >a- > > > > but you sound like a typical Leftist;a > > > N > > > Because he decried the parochial nature of the American viewpoint, whichH > > > your statements above even seem to agree with (all you advanced in
 > rebuttal$ > > > was "everyone's just as bad")? > >I
 > > Not true.t > F > Would you care to point out any portion of your response that cannot- > properly be summed up as I did above, then?  > ; >  Let me put it another way, his arguments are politicallya > > correct tripe. > L > The truth that appears to be emerging is that you're something of a bigot,I > without much of a clue about analyzing content rather than jerking your.1 > knee.  But perhaps it's just a momentary lapse.c  E Why must you respond with rudeness? Could it be you have no arguments E left worth anything? Sounds Berkeley'ish to me (if you shout epithets A loudly enough, your opponents will not be heard, and therefore bei
 refuted.).   >  > >: > > >S > > >  spouting}G > > > > from the "Red Book of the Politically Correct", subtitled "Hatea
 > America:$ > > > > It's the Right Thing to Do". > > >oN > > > People hate America not because we're parochial but because we have, andI > > > use, the power we have to affect *them*.  If we just minded our own.
 > internal0 > > > business our parochialism wouldn't matter. > > >C > >o- > > Seems like you're proposing isolationism.2 > L > Not at all:  I'm just proposing that we *either* act responsibly *or* keepM > our actions within our borders.  I (and my guess is most of the rest of thesJ > world) would prefer the former, but even the latter would likely be more4 > acceptable to the world than what we're doing now.  G A significant point of contention: I think we *are* acting responsibly.17 The latter choice still sounds like isolationism to me.    >   >  I suppose we should have leftK > > the Yugoslavian mess all to the Europeans. They seemed to be doing sucht' > > a good job stopping that holocaust.  > 8 > We acted responsibly there, IMO - so no problem arose. > H > > I wonder what would happen if we really *did* mind our own business?L > > Let's see... Iraq would take over the mid east and blackmail Europe. TheK > > Chinese would rule Asia. The North Koreans would take over South Korea. I > > The Indians and Pakistani's would have a small nuclear war and France . > > would once again dominate world diplomacy. > H > Possibly some or even all of those things would happen, which is why IF > believe that most of the rest of the world would prefer that we be aN > responsible and even leading world citizen rather than retreat to within our > shores.  t  C That's what we are doing. But you are not far sighted enough to see} that.)  C > We could even threaten the other countries of the world with suchvL > dire visions and say "It's either that, or let us have our own way!" - butH > the point is that *such a decision (whether we're worth accommodating)L > should be theirs to make*, and that we should not feel free to make it forK > them (by taking any action our power allows us to when they oppose us andiE > rationalizing our right to by the possible good that our continuing . > engagement with the world may also produce).  E I'm not sure if you mean "theirs" and "them" as France, Iraq or what, E but you will never convince me that in this case, and this case only,l5 (Iraq) that our actions to date are not responsible. v   >  > > Ok. You've convinced me. > H > You're starting to strike me as someone whose mind is already made up. >   6 Not you though. You sound very open to your own views.   --     Have VMS, Will Travelr Wire paladin, San Franciscoc   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:00:18 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <wuudnZ6ni-KIGfejXTWcoQ@metrocast.net>  ( "Everhart" <ge@gce.com> wrote in message% news:b4dabm$kge$1@bob.news.rcn.net...    ...u  J > If Israel were a democracy in the sense we have gotten used to, it wouldB > have no problems simply annexing the whole area and allowing the PalestiniansE > to vote and participate in their society as citizens. Obviously the7 IsraeliLH > government at least is unwilling to do this, since that would mean all those@K > Christians and Moslems would outnumber the Jews and the country would nott anya > longer be a religious state.  E Indeed.  Unfortunately, Israel doesn't seem willing to come up with aw reasonable alternative, either.   8  (Never mind that genetically most of the aforementionedH > Christians and Jews are probably much closer to the ancient Israelites thanK > the immigrant Jews (who got a raw deal also and were sold a bill of goods'J > by those who claimed Palestine was a 'land without a people')). Right ofG > descent, or even tracing rights back to Abraham, Moses, etc., if doner	 honestly, I > would probably favor the group now called Palestinians taking the wholeO > region over. >.I > The Israeli government and some fraction of its citizens don't want then PalestiniansJ > to be citizens but they do want evidently to control all the land. It is not)J > surprising that the Palestinians conclude the plan is for them to eitherL > be forcibly ejected or to be killed en masse. The French during WWII mightL > have viewed the Germans in something like this light. What their partisans did=7 > would have been called terrorism had the Allies lost.O  D People have short memories (or selective ethics) when it suits theirL purposes.  What is called terrorism today is only the continuation of a veryL long history of what people without the capacity to fight a conventional warG or otherwise defend their freedom and security have had to turn to.  It A isn't pretty, but then neither is conventional war - and both are : considerably closer to each other than either is to peace.  C For that matter, IIRC Israel's hands are not all that clean in this G respect - the Irgun and friends come to mind most readily, but it's noteL clear that all such activity has been relegated to the past even today.  AndK we're not quite squeaky-clean either, considering that we turn over some ofbJ the people we capture to friends whose treatment of them seems less likelyF to be hampered by things like the Geneva convention (leaving aside the> discussions that have occurred of adopting torture ourselves).   >aL > The business of civilians getting blown up is lousy for both groups there, andaJ > to my mind the US has business making funding of anyone there contingent onG > it going to activities calculated to stop the provocation and to somed solutionJ > for the Palestinians other than diaspora or death. No military aid while= > the settlements exist might be a suitable attention getter.e  J Unless the current Israeli government completely rejects external input asK much as our own currently does (and thinks it can either tough it out alonelK or wait until domestic pressure reverses such a decision).  Not that such anK move on our part seems at all likely anyway these days:  Bush appears to be H solidly in Sharon's pocket, perhaps because he's mimicking the hard-lineB Israelis in the hope that emphasizing external dangers (which seemK increasingly likely to be partly of his own making) will keep him in officee* as successfully as it has worked for them.   >-H > I am uneasy about attacking Iraq, though I have read reports they fund some! > of the suicide bombs in Israel.t  K The only reports I've seen are that Iraq provides significant financial aid0L to the families of suicide bombers.  This could be interpreted as charity orJ as after-the-fact encouragement, depending upon one's viewpoint - but evenB if considered encouragement the question then becomes whether suchI encouragement is criminal or laudable (if you consider it akin to supportnE for the families of the French partisans you mentioned), which is yeti another judgement call.   J Even if Iraq supported Palestinian terrorism directly, it's not clear thatJ the ethics of this would differ dramatically from, say, our support of theK Mujahadeen (not exactly a squeamish crowd) while the Soviets were occupyingr Afghanistan.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 20:16:20 -0400I0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E6A87C6.EA4A15C5@vl.videotron.ca>-   Everhart wrote: M > I am uneasy about attacking Iraq, though I have read reports they fund someiP > of the suicide bombs in Israel. The US intelligence community may have reportsM > of other activity, but we see very few bits of evidence that confirm these,-    J On Friday, Mohamed El Baradai (UN Chief Inspector for Nuclear stuff)  saidF quite bluntly that the documents that alleged that Iraq had (tried to)K purchased uranium from Nigeria were not authentic (diplomatic talk for: had7 been concucted)0  H When Islael's army invaded Arafat's compound, the magically produced oneL cheque in perfect condition that was supposedly signed by a "Saddam Hussein"N and was alleged to be a payment for a suicide bomber's family. This cheque was2 never followed through to verify its authenticity.  I Had the story really been true, they would have handed the cheque to somezA independant body to trace  the cheque and prove its authenticity.   N Their goal was just to show some piece of paper to the media and present it as fact without it being verified.d  L Cheques have bank account numbers on them, and they have all sorts of stampsJ on the back when the cheque clears.  If the cheque was still in the ArafatJ ofices, it means that it had not been cashed. Had it been cashed, it would4 have been sent back to the originator of the cheque.  L Also, I find it very interesting that Israel would have found that cheque inM the ruins of Arafat,s ofice so quickly and that the cheque would have been soa intact and brand new.   K Sorry, but that has been too much unverified so-called evidence presented. rM Powel presented all sort of fancy pictures in Feb 5, but upon verification of L those sites, the UN saw absolutely no traces of bio weapons ever having been present there.  H The USA has lost credibility. Until they provide credible evidence, they3 should not be allowed to take any dramatic actions.   K Bush Jr and Cheney should be sent to a secured and undisclosed location for  the remainder of their term.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:35:24 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <pJGdnZg-5ZTTEfejXTWcpQ@metrocast.net>  2 "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message% news:3E6A7B7A.F267B9DF@pacbell.net...o >t >n > Bill Todd wrote: > >S6 > > "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message) > > news:3E693336.5BA0FEF1@pacbell.net...r > > >> > > >" > > > Bill Todd wrote: > > > >*: > > > > "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message- > > > > news:3E691A7F.DCE89EC2@pacbell.net... 	 > > > > > 	 > > > > >o > > > > > Shane Smith wrote: > >h > > ...  > >fL > > > > > > If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be
 > > about.J > > > > > > America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wish > > moreI > > > > > > average Americans traveled and actually lived in other placesP for aaE > > > > > > while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them mored respecte > > for J > > > > > > other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how much > > ofD > > > > > > what they think of as basic truths are actually American culturalK > > > > > > opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I'vel hads > > overI > > > > > > here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent amongn thelH > > > > > > American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now,	 > > after , > > > > > > the attacks, it's getting worse. > > > > > >A > > > > > > Shane 	 > > > > >fG > > > > > How is it then that we are BY FAR the most diverse country ons earth. > > > >'F > > > > It is because ethnic diversity in no way guarantees breadth of > > viewpoint.L > > > > In part this is because new immigrants are proud to be here and make
 > > activeI > > > > efforts to adopt what seem to be existing norms:  they may retain) largegF > > > > elements of their *ethnic* identity, and even of the *personal culturalJ > > > > identity* of their countries of origin, but that doesn't mean they
 > > retainD > > > > the foreign *attitudes*, because they don't want to consider
 themselves? > > > > 'foreign' after moving here, they want to be Americans.t > > > L > > > What's your point? I simply said, we're more diverse than anyone else. > >oF > > No.  By asking "How is it then..." you clearly suggested that this somehowi6 > > refuted Shane's observations about our insularity. >pA > That was a rhetorical question and did not call for a response.c  L The point is not whether it was a question, it is that the connective phraseJ "How is it then..." clearly indicates that it's meant to respond to and inK some way refute the statement of Shane's that you quoted immediately beforerJ it.  When I pointed out the ineffectiveness of the refutation, you claimedD "I simply said, we're more diverse than anyone else", which was alsoG incorrect (unless despite appearances you had *not* meant your originalnJ comment as a refutation, in which case it was irrelevant in the context of< the comment of Shane's that you seemed to be responding to).   >O > > My point was that it didL > > not (and given that, it's not clear what the relevance of your statement was L > > supposed to be - unless you indeed mistakenly felt that it constituted a > > refutation). >h  > *My* statement was irrelevant?  7 If not meant as a refutation it indeed was:  see above.e  '  I think you mean your statements about.E > ethnic, personal and foreign cultures were basically gibberish, buttJ > unlike you, I often try to be polite and good natured in my debates. You2 > are often angry and insulting in your responses.  L Sometimes I get angry, more often I just run out of patience with people whoI can't understand the content of even their own side of a conversation lete< alone both even when the content has been rehashed for them.   ...   ! > > > > > I hate to label anyone,e > > > >tI > > > > But don't seem to have made any real effort to analyse what Shanet said > > > > before doing so. > > > > > > > I think I addressed his warmed-over rhetoric quite well. > >oH > > And I think you give yourself far too much credit, since in fact youK > > advanced *nothing* to refute it (the closest you came was the "everyone  else" > > is just as bad" non-argument). >9' > Well I guess your just not listening.s  I That's "you're", by the way.  I listen quite well, thank you - better, ina: fact, than you seem to recall what you yourself have said.  !  I've made a lot of points within 5 > these sub-threads, but you don't want to hear them.e  I Perhaps you should keep to specifics, if you're capable of it:  the aboveuG interchange very specifically addressed your response to Shane, not thei+ meanderings you have indulged in elsewhere.    >  > >  > > >  > > > >s/ > > > > > but you sound like a typical Leftist;  > > > >yJ > > > > Because he decried the parochial nature of the American viewpoint, which J > > > > your statements above even seem to agree with (all you advanced in > > rebuttal& > > > > was "everyone's just as bad")? > > >a > > > Not true.. > > H > > Would you care to point out any portion of your response that cannot/ > > properly be summed up as I did above, then?h > > = > >  Let me put it another way, his arguments are politically  > > > correct tripe. > > G > > The truth that appears to be emerging is that you're something of a  bigot,K > > without much of a clue about analyzing content rather than jerking yours3 > > knee.  But perhaps it's just a momentary lapse.i > % > Why must you respond with rudeness?   B If saying clearly what one thinks in a discussion such as this oneB constitutes rudeness, I'm generally for it.  You seemed to have noK reservations about characterizing Shane's arguments as 'politically correcttF tripe' (not exactly what I'd consider polite), so I responded in kind.  "  Could it be you have no arguments > left worth anything?  K Hardly.  But I'm beginning to think you're not worth wasting the time on tod
 make them.  1  Sounds Berkeley'ish to me (if you shout epithetsoC > loudly enough, your opponents will not be heard, and therefore beh > refuted.). >m > >n > > >u > > > >t > > > >  spouting I > > > > > from the "Red Book of the Politically Correct", subtitled "Hate  > > America:& > > > > > It's the Right Thing to Do". > > > > L > > > > People hate America not because we're parochial but because we have, and3K > > > > use, the power we have to affect *them*.  If we just minded our owna > > internal2 > > > > business our parochialism wouldn't matter. > > > >l > > > / > > > Seems like you're proposing isolationism.p > >lI > > Not at all:  I'm just proposing that we *either* act responsibly *or*k keepK > > our actions within our borders.  I (and my guess is most of the rest ofi theoL > > world) would prefer the former, but even the latter would likely be more6 > > acceptable to the world than what we're doing now. >aI > A significant point of contention: I think we *are* acting responsibly.h  L The point that appears still to escape you is the it doesn't matter what youL think, or what I think, or what Dubya thinks:  what matters is what the restJ of the world thinks, at least in the context of my comment above:  they'reL the ones who get to decide whether putting up with our shit is worthwhile orD whether all things considered they'd rather we stayed at home.  ThatJ decision is not in itself binding upon us as long as they can't enforce itL militarily, but it's certainly relevant in explaining why people may hate us< despite the fact that we seem to think we're above reproach.  9 > The latter choice still sounds like isolationism to me.  >s > >h" > >  I suppose we should have leftH > > > the Yugoslavian mess all to the Europeans. They seemed to be doing such) > > > a good job stopping that holocaust.0 > >s: > > We acted responsibly there, IMO - so no problem arose. > >IJ > > > I wonder what would happen if we really *did* mind our own business?J > > > Let's see... Iraq would take over the mid east and blackmail Europe. ThesF > > > Chinese would rule Asia. The North Koreans would take over South Korea.K > > > The Indians and Pakistani's would have a small nuclear war and Franceo0 > > > would once again dominate world diplomacy. > >nJ > > Possibly some or even all of those things would happen, which is why IH > > believe that most of the rest of the world would prefer that we be aL > > responsible and even leading world citizen rather than retreat to within ouri > > shores.c >oE > That's what we are doing. But you are not far sighted enough to sees > that.e  J Once again, that's neither your nor my assessment to make in this context:I the rest of the world gets to decide whether we're responsible enough for I them to want to put up with us.  But that may be a difficult point to geth7 your mind around from a position of American arrogance.e   > E > > We could even threaten the other countries of the world with suchtJ > > dire visions and say "It's either that, or let us have our own way!" - buttJ > > the point is that *such a decision (whether we're worth accommodating)J > > should be theirs to make*, and that we should not feel free to make it for I > > them (by taking any action our power allows us to when they oppose us  andhG > > rationalizing our right to by the possible good that our continuingv0 > > engagement with the world may also produce). >rG > I'm not sure if you mean "theirs" and "them" as France, Iraq or what,eG > but you will never convince me that in this case, and this case only,s6 > (Iraq) that our actions to date are not responsible.  K Something I've lost any interest in trying to do even assuming I had any ink7 the first place.  But other minds may be more flexible.p   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 20:57:09 -0400l0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E6A9154.226A4A44@vl.videotron.ca>e   Don Sykes wrote:G > But, I think this discussion is getting way off the mark. I don't seee< > how this supports the position of the myopic left on Iraq.  L Actually it doesn't. The insular nature of Americans means that because theyG only ever hear one side of the story, especially when any opposition isnH silenced because any dissention would be labeled as "non-patriotic".  itF become extremely easy for that one side to manipulate enough of the USG population that polls will show support for a rogue government's plans.i  N The Iraq story is a perfect textbook example of how a government can so easilyH manipulate the population with the media, especially when the oppositionN remains silent because the govermnent succeeded in saying that anyone opposing it would be un-patriotic.s  N I'll give you a good example of the media-saavy of the current USA government.M On Friday, Powell left the security council room just in time to give a press I conference that began at the same time as the Iraqi ambassador started to.F talk. All of the USA media switched to the Powell press conference andJ americans didn't hear the Iraqi response. Powell just repeated what he had+ said in the security council (nothing new).p  N One often wonders how leaders in the past were able to proceed with absolutelyM awful plans that supposedly had the support of population.  I now realise how: it was done.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2003 21:37:23 -0600A+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)g: Subject: RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <MPtpqUQ$eERd@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  W In article <01C2E4BE.2EA85C60@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes: H > The inputs are very diverse, and there are subgroups, but the majorityI > of Americans are not first or second generation immigrants. They're the J > product of growing up in this society. You are obviously one of the moreE > traveled Americans, good for you. And praise is due for giving yourtG > children the same opportunity. The proportion of blinkered minds hereoH > is, by my observation, more widespread than anywhere else I've been. I* > even get asked what state England is in. > I > Did I say I hate America? I don't. I like Americans, although there areo6 > elements to American group psychology that bugs me.   6 	There are elements of group psychology that bug me in 	the countries I have been in.   > Look around, seeG > how the rest of the world sees you. The first word most non-Americans ( > use to describe Americans is arrogant.  ; 	I believe that.  What most of it boils down to is jealousy : 	which foments itself in bad attitude.  To help counteract= 	the arrogance label, you have to be good hosts and love youre? 	foreign visitors.  We had folks up here from South America on	 = 	business, I made sure I took time (my own time) to take them = 	shopping at night.  They really appreciated that.  They were @ 	my friends.  I know many from their country may hate or despise? 	us arrogant Americans , but they were my friends.  I even likep< 	Canadians.  My brother-in-law is Canadian.  I enjoy him and) 	love getting together with their family.   a  I don't think this is right, InB > think it's a side effect of the cultural ignorance most AmericanJ > tourists exhibit abroad. Yes, this is personal observation, and it's theJ > butt of countless comedy sketches. Even here. And America is not exposedC > to other cultures as much as other cultures are exposed to yours. J > Hollywood, anyone? You probably don't even know how much you're shieldedG > from other countries' influences. For example, I constantly marvel atnF > the number of Discovery channel programs that are BBC produced, thenI > voiced over with American accents. They don't even bother to change theeI > narrators' names on the credits: I assure you, Dennis Waterman does not  > come from Dallas.e >   > 	Cool, had no idea I was watching a British production.  Shame< 	those arrogant Hollywood types hide that from us Americans.  I > Someone asked for an example. Here's one I tease the closed minded withUJ > frequently. The age of consent. All the insular Americans I meet here inI > CA think that 18 is the absolute right age for the age of consent. It'seJ > so ingrained, they don't think about it, and they think any country thatI > doesn't abide by it is somehow uncivilized. So I ask them if England is J > civilized. The answer is yes. But our age of consent is 16. Then I throwH > Holland's 14 at them. They are scandalized. They can't see that it's aF > choice a society makes, 18 is Just Plain Right, because they grew upH > with it. They either end up somewhat shaken, or refuse to consider it,  > or call me a liar. Every time. >   + 	Funny, but your example is not a good one. F 	Age of consent is a state law.  Imagine if Great Britain's different E 	counties (regions?, sorry .. just one of those insular Americans).  b 	Here Google is your friend:  ( http://www.ageofconsent.com/arkansas.htm   	16 in Arkansas-  ( http://www.ageofconsent.com/missouri.htm  ? 	17 in Missouri (if you are over 21).  If you are under 21, age: 	of consent is 14.  = 	But all those examples don't make it right.  Kind of sick toc: 	think it is okay for a 65 year old man to have sex with a; 	14 year old.  Just because it may be legal in some part of<+ 	the world certainly doesn't make it right.A  D > That's it. I'm dropping out of this thread. I didn't want to start > another branch.f   			Rob   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2003 21:56:42 -0600o+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)L: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <$tV3XAmsEkom@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  b In article <3E6A0D64.5345873B@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: > Bill Todd wrote:G >> You're really stretching on this one.  The show is aimed at the U.S.fA >> audience, and is therefore about the FBI rather than the RCMP.s > O > Which comes back to the original point that US audiences do not consume stuffiL > that originates from abroad in terms of TV/movies. They'll consume foreignH > music as long as it is in english, with a few exceptions now and then. > N > Elsewhere in the world, folks have no problems consuming programming that isP > set in various locations in the world. But the insular nature of the USA meansL > that a self-perpetuated "only in the USA" mentality exists, and because itO > exists, the big media outlets don't risk putting on foreign shows and becauseoF > they don't take that risk, the insular nature strenghtens even more. > F > Did you know that many of the most popular shows in the USA actuallyP > originated abroad (Three's company, Who wants to be a millionaire etc etc) butP > the USA decided to make their own copy instead of buying the existing show (in" > the above cases, from england) ?  ( 	You are spinning in several directions.  ? 	First, it makes no sense to produce an American show overseas. 8 	Production costs would be unacceptable.  So if American= 	producers find something that works overseas, sure they will 6 	buy the rights and produce it here, or where it makes* 	sense to produce it.  That is why TorontoA 	is becoming such a hot spot for production, costs are very good!r? 	Us insular arrogant Americans know about business, it appears:e  8 http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/economic_profile/media.htm  O American producers in particular are attracted to Toronto because of the city'smG pool of top-quality creative and technical talent, excellent production O facilities and lower costs. The favourable exchange rate on the Canadian dollaraO means producers can buy more and do more in Toronto. The overall result is thatfM Toronto is now ranked by most Hollywood producers as the equal of Los Angelese and New York City. n  K Toronto is the third-largest film and television production centre in NortheC America and the second-largest exporter of television programming.  B Film and television is a $1.2 billion dollar industry in Toronto.     8 	We love Canada, our great trading partner to the north.                               Robw   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 16:56:17 +1000m1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Message-ID: <3E6AE591.50805@tg.nsw.gov.au>   Bob Ceculski wrote:e  G >>And the majority of world opinion, and dare I say US opinion, is that < >>war is not called for, nor is it justifiable at this time. >  > ? > not called for ... Iraq was probably behind both the OK. cityf@ > and NY attacks, are now working to arm terrorists with poisons> > and nuclear suitcases, and you say sit on our butts and wait9 > to be nuked?  We don't need the UN to weigh in when ourd> > natioanl security is at stake ... glad you aren't president!    ? Shit Bob, This IS when you want the United Nations to weigh in.e  E Why do your comments imply to me that you believe the US is the only l' country that has experienced terrorism?w  D Most "western" countries are now on alert for such terrorism.  Bali E seemed to be specifically aimed at Australians, and much (different) a  terrorism has gone on in the UK.  I We DO want the UN to stop individual leader, Bush, Blair and Howard, for fC example, from starting a world war.  We need a world collective of nI nations to keep the world stable.  US might be a large country, but it's m not the only country.   B My opinion regarding whether we want to fight Iraq or not are not  reflected in my comments here.   Regards, Paddy        G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegeda> and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advisedB the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.n  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid  A immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the i= individual sender except where the sender expressly and with  C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:30:30 +1000?1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au>o: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Message-ID: <3E6AED96.10205@tg.nsw.gov.au>   Don Sykes wrote: >  > Shane Smith wrote: >  >>Bill Todd wrote: >><snip> >>L >>>If you saw Nightline last night, you got a chilling view of where Dubya'sO >>>Imperial America thinks it is heading.  We know what's best for your country M >>>and the world and will do whatever we think is necessary to make it happengJ >>>(all of course from the best of motives), because we're America and you$ >>>can't do a damn thing to stop us. >  > H > Well thank God it's the USA that has all the power. I can think of 100@ > other countries which would not wield it as morally as we do.  >  > I >>If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be about. J >>America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wish moreE >>average Americans traveled and actually lived in other places for agG >>while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them more respect for H >>other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how much ofC >>what they think of as basic truths are actually American culturaleJ >>opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I've had overC >>here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent among theuI >>American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now, aftera" >>the attacks, it's getting worse. >> >>Shanei >  > J > How is it then that we are BY FAR the most diverse country on earth. OurH > cultural inputs have been from, and continue to be from, every nation.  H Aside from the overall population numbers, I think the UK and Australia B have populations that represent immigrants from as many different  countries as US.  H > I've been to Asia and Europe myself several times and I appreciate allI > the cultures I've come in contact with. My children were even raised ineA > a French school system, setup here in the states to accommodatenG > transient expatriates (diplomats, etc.), so I've know many people whoyJ > were French speaking. And the one thing I've noticed about virtually ALLF > of the non-US-citizens I've met is how much they appreciate the US.   G You are obviously more intelligent (well you're on c.o.v :-) than most  C US tourists I experienced in UK and Europe.  In general, they were eG considered an annoying joke -- yes, we needed your bucks, but often we  G did not need the attitude.  Probably UK and Au citizens were similarly sG obnoxious in your country, but my experience in UK and Europe was that t@ US tourists were the pits -- but I never met you or your family.  G Step back a minute: in this and other recent threads it has often been rH mentioned, even by US nationals, that US is seen to have an "attitude". ; I agree entirely with Shane's comments from this viewpoint.b  G > The closed mindedness you attribute to the "American masses" is found H > everywhere else in the world too. The close-minded and un-traveled areJ > often myopic in their world view, but that IN NO WAY is limited to thoseH > in the US. If anything, "our masses" are exposed to other cultures far+ > more than those in the rest of the world.d > G Agreed with all bar the last sentence.  US ghettoes and prejudices are dF no different from any of our other Western countries, and there is no G better exposure to other cultures.  Since I now live in Au, I see that aI the Aboriginal culture is as large a part of inheritance here as is that   of your indigenous peoples.a  H > I hate to label anyone, but you sound like a typical Leftist; spoutingJ > from the "Red Book of the Politically Correct", subtitled "Hate America: > It's the Right Thing to Do".    F Sorry, Don, I could not help laughing at your unintentional humour in K the above.  .. typical Leftist... Hate America, it's the Right thing to do.e  H I doubt that any Westerner, at least, hates America and Shane choose to C live in your country, so I doubt that he hates it.  But in all our aG countries, we have Left and Right, so probably many of us do not agree d+ with our Government's policies of the time.l   Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegedh> and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise B the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.e  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid nA immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the i= individual sender except where the sender expressly and with nC authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid useso> virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************:   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:34:16 +1000e1 From: Paddy O'Brien <paddy.o'brien@tg.nsw.gov.au>r: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants, Message-ID: <3E6AEE78.6070803@tg.nsw.gov.au>   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:w > Shane Smith wrote: >  >>If there is a world war 3,...  >  > " > Well, in a sense there is *now*.A > On one side there is McDonalds, CocaCola, Hollywood and Disney, E > on the other is all those other (real) cultures strugling for there  > lifes.3 > We'll see on a couple a 100's years who survived.h > I'w no idea... >  > Jan-Erik.r  	 Jan-Erik,u  A Er, you forgot MickeySoft, or was that included in Disneyland :-)m   Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************m  C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged > and confidential information intended only for the use of the B addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advisegB the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, 7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.h  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid oA immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the t= individual sender except where the sender expressly and with uC authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid usesr> virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 06:32:50 GMTh% From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net>o: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <3E6ADFF5.2EA108C7@pacbell.net>u  " "Never try to teach a pig to sing.. It will only frustrate you and annoy the pig." -Anon.   -- o   Have VMS, Will Travel  Wire paladin, San Francisco.   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2003 18:56:09 GMTn- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)o5 Subject: Re: OT:  National Moratorium to Stop the Wart5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-VzvjpQIhiTmx@localhost>   D On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 17:23:52 UTC, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)  wrote:  < > > > we have a nut in Iraq who wants to arm terrorists with< > > > nuclear suitcase bombs which would make 9/11 look like7 > > > a picnic, and you are on this vms board promotinga> > > > flower power?  Didn't you learn anything from WWII Bill?= > > > 9/11 was another Pearl Harbor, but you're still wantingu > > > to appease murderers?e > > K > > Thank you, Bob, for making the quality of the opposing viewpoint clear.oM > > Although those who agree with you might counter with the observation thati. > > even a stopped clock is right twice a day. > > 
 > > - bill > : > yes, history does repeat itself for people like you Bill% > who don't learn a thing from it ...l  C I know this is a waste of time but... which history do you want to eA avoid repeating bob? Arming Ho Chi Minh, arming Osama bin Laden,  @ bringing down/assisting in the murder of democratically elected F presidents, giving 'authoritarian' regimes (e.g. Iraq, Argentina and aF host of other central american countries) messages that only the fightF against communism counts and thus they can murder whoever they 'need'  to?e   - Dave.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 20:18:36 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Portmapping/ Message-ID: <3E6A884E.8B56D0B4@vl.videotron.ca>o   Didier Morandi wrote:aH > I have a friend who has a PWS600au as the Internet Gateway, linked viaG > ADSL. "Behind", there are a few systems where he wishes to be able ton6 > do, from "outside" FTP on one, HTTP on another, etc.  N I think you want a small router with NAT/PAT. On the router, you define a portG number and to which host on your lan calls to that port should be sent.d   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 01:25:27 GMTs1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>  Subject: Re: Portmapping2 Message-ID: <3E6A9714.57627DC6@firstdbasource.com>   Didier Morandi wrote:m > B > There is a nice tool under WinDaube with allows a gateway systemE > connected to the Internet to map different ports to different otherI* > systems behind it in a domestic network. > H > I have a friend who has a PWS600au as the Internet Gateway, linked viaG > ADSL. "Behind", there are a few systems where he wishes to be able to 6 > do, from "outside" FTP on one, HTTP on another, etc. > 0 > How do you do that with the TCP/IP portmapper? > 	 > Thanks,n >  > D. > --+ >     M O R A N D I   C o n s u l t a n t sw- > 19 chemin de la Butte 31400 Toulouse FranceF- > Tl: 33(0)6 7983 6418 Fax: 33(0)5 6154 1928o' >         http://Didier.Morandi.Free.frt    " My understanding of PORTMAPPER is:  G Displays a list of all registered remote procedure call (RPC) programs. B The Portmapper running on the specified host gets this list... TheB rpcinfo or SHOW PORTMAPPER commands can also find the RPC servicesC registered on a specific host and report their port numbers and theo2 transports for which the services are registered.   G What you are looking for is something that will do "port forwarding" . r= Most DSL providers here in the USA use PPPoE to establish the G connection, while I am sure that using a psuedo-interface this would beiA possible, I don't recall seeing anything that could be used to dot port-forwarding.   Example: TCPIP> show portmapperC     Program Number      Version   Protocol   Port-number  Process  n Service-nameC ----------------------  -------  ----------  -----------  -------- t ------------C 000186A0 (     100000)        2  TCP                 111  0000009B c
 PORTMAPPERC 000186A0 (     100000)        2  UDP                 111  0000009B l
 PORTMAPPERG 000186A3 (     100003)        2  TCP                2049  0000009E  NFS G 000186A3 (     100003)        2  UDP                2049  0000009E  NFS G 000186A3 (     100003)        3  TCP                2049  0000009E  NFS G 000186A3 (     100003)        3  UDP                2049  0000009E  NFSeC 000186A5 (     100005)        1  UDP                  10  0000009F r MOUNThC 000186A5 (     100005)        3  UDP                  10  0000009F d MOUNThC 000186A5 (     100005)        1  TCP                  10  0000009F n MOUNTyC 000186A5 (     100005)        3  TCP                  10  0000009F n MOUNTtC 000249F1 (     150001)        1  UDP                5151  000000A1   PCNFS4C 000249F1 (     150001)        2  UDP                5151  000000A1 e PCNFSnC 000249F1 (     150001)        1  TCP                5151  000000A1 @ PCNFSsC 000249F1 (     150001)        2  TCP                5151  000000A1 6 PCNFS2  ) If there is something on VMS that would: r a) login to PPPoE session  b) establish port-forwarding m c) Do NAT translations .  F This could be useful, but then again, I already have 2 Linksys routersG that do it for me and is easy to maintain. I am "mostly" happy with thes? Dynamic IP stuff I have to use, but the solution works for now.   A *mostly -- My provider requires u/p for authentication to provide E "relay" service.  A number of companies refuse email directly from my D VMS box because of the dynamic IP address as it does not do an exactD match reverse lookup.  They say that it prevents spam.  IMO SpammersH should have their fingers chopped off when caught, and if they continue,D on the second capture, just cause their carbon-based shells to ceaseE functioning by means of a small, lead-based projectile traveling at a C very high velocity in the general vicinity of their main processingt unit. :)   --   Regards,  6 Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 19847 First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 22:30:55 -0400e0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Portmapping/ Message-ID: <3E6AA75A.2ABC07D7@vl.videotron.ca>    Michael Austin wrote: H > What you are looking for is something that will do "port forwarding" .? > Most DSL providers here in the USA use PPPoE to establish theaI > connection, while I am sure that using a psuedo-interface this would berC > possible, I don't recall seeing anything that could be used to doo > port-forwarding.  K I am likely going to switch service providers due to the total incompetenceeI and lack of ethics of my currect ISP. My patience has runned out. My onlytM other options are those pesky PPPoE providors (versus cable which uses DHCP).t  I How often does one's IP change when you have a router that does the peskyf- PPPoE translation to real TCPIP on your LAN ?   M Right now, my vax has a script that fetches my router's dhcp data to find out.G what my vax's IP is at the other end, as well as other data such as DNS 
 adresses etc.   L In a PPPoE setting, are those pieces of information accessible from the sameS menus on a router, or are they totally different settings ? (I have a netgear 314).u   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 04:11:33 GMTi1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>y Subject: Re: Portmapping2 Message-ID: <3E6ABE01.D87DC746@firstdbasource.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Michael Austin wrote:tJ > > What you are looking for is something that will do "port forwarding" .A > > Most DSL providers here in the USA use PPPoE to establish thenK > > connection, while I am sure that using a psuedo-interface this would be E > > possible, I don't recall seeing anything that could be used to do  > > port-forwarding. > M > I am likely going to switch service providers due to the total incompetenceoK > and lack of ethics of my currect ISP. My patience has runned out. My onlyaO > other options are those pesky PPPoE providors (versus cable which uses DHCP).n > K > How often does one's IP change when you have a router that does the peskya/ > PPPoE translation to real TCPIP on your LAN ?l > O > Right now, my vax has a script that fetches my router's dhcp data to find out I > what my vax's IP is at the other end, as well as other data such as DNSe > adresses etc.  > N > In a PPPoE setting, are those pieces of information accessible from the sameU > menus on a router, or are they totally different settings ? (I have a netgear 314).e    E The length of time between IP changes varies from ISP to ISP.  I haveeE had one provider where it may change once every 3-4 weeks. My currentyH address appears to change almost daily and sometimes multiple times in aF day.  If your router is capable of PPPoE (and I Believe the 314 is...)H then it is the same menus.  So, your scripts shouldn't change.  I have aA perl script called ddclient that I obtained from the ZoneEdit.com A freeware that I run on both a Linux and VMS box (just in case onesG dies).  That way my domain names are constantly available and I can get-  to my systems from the internet.   -- l Regards,  6 Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 19847 First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163    ------------------------------    Date: 09 Mar 2003 04:55:55 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: RMS version numberiD Message-ID: <20030308214342.13F5AD72.NOFFLE@momos.conceptual.net.au>  ! "John" <john@dateline.gg> writes:a  F > I am inside a BASIC program and have just opened a file for writing.A > I want to know what version of the file I have just created, asvD > there may already be versions in existence, and other versions mayA > follow later; yet I still want to be able to refer back to this D > particular one.  In the past I have only ever had to refer back to> > the latest version, but a change in the way we do things has > necessitated the change.  @ Store the File ID away somewhere after you open it. You are thenF certain it is the same file, and if `someone' overwrites it with a new2 file, you will get a fileID-sequence number check.  < Also stick the full file name somewhere in case you need it.  y= > My alternative would be to abandon the existing file namingnD > convention and replace it with something more sensible - but thereF > are many years of the existing structure in place, and "not startingC > from here" isn't really an easy option.  (But is starting to look' > more attractive......)  F Don't forget, that if you are only using the file within the one image> as a temp file, you can create a tempory file, and mark it for? delete. No name needed, and when you image rundown, the file is  deleted , so no junk build-up.     -- o< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 16:33:24 -0600  From: brandon@dalsemi.com  Subject: Re: RMS version numberl1 Message-ID: <03030816332402@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>u   > B > Store the File ID away somewhere after you open it. You are thenH > certain it is the same file, and if `someone' overwrites it with a new4 > file, you will get a fileID-sequence number check. > > > Also stick the full file name somewhere in case you need it. >   O This may not be the best solution; that is if you like to do backup restores oro@ move the data from one disk to another.  The FID will change.        John Brandon VMS Systems Administratort Dallas Semiconductor john.brandon@dalsemi.com 972.371.4172 wkh 972.371.4003 fxr   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Mar 2003 11:22:39 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>wY Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdae0 Message-ID: <qhadg5zmrk.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  ) John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> writes:o9 > I don't believe you can have more than one RSX20F-basedn: > PDP-11 on a KL10.  I recommend running the DN60 software > on the other three.c  : Wouldn't DN87 software typically be useful to more people?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 17:22:35 -0500, From: "David Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com>9 Subject: Re: UK Hobbyist seeks personality (for BA356-JC) / Message-ID: <v6krg8tl0g7pf9@news.supernews.com>e  $ We never received an email from you.I Even if we didn't sell this product, we would be courteous enough to send  you a message stating so.t   Regardsa   David Turner  7 (I was in hospital actually having my wrist rebroken !)k  F "Chris Townley" <news_ac@townleyc.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk> wrote in message. news:b4b9rt$1cd$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...A > DEC PSW 433-AU running VMS 7.3 with QLA1020a SCSI wide onboard.t >eG > Just inherited a few BA356-JC shelves. Then a few DS-RZ1-CF-VA 4.3 Gbf drivesK > and a few DS-RZ1DD-VW 9.1Gb drives. Sadly I felt I ought to hand back ther > 18Gb drive to our sysadmin.u > K > However I need a personality module - I have managed to obtain a BA35X-MGuL > with two interfaces, but I gather this is 8 bit, whereas I gather I need aL > BA35X-MH for the wide interface. Anybody got any surplus in the UK, or anyL > idea where I can get one for a sensible price? I might even do a deal on a
 > shelf... >hK > I tried e-mailing Island last week, but they havnt bothered to reply - isd > David Turner on holiday? >i >o > -- > Chrish+ > chris AT townleyc DOT demon DOT co DOT uk  >t >r   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:03:38 -0600(1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>h9 Subject: Re: UK Hobbyist seeks personality (for BA356-JC) ' Message-ID: <3E6A92EA.EA40CFD2@fsi.net>p   David Turner wrote:t > [snip]9 > (I was in hospital actually having my wrist rebroken !)g > [snip]   *CRINGE*   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 22:50:08 -0500: From: Charles Shannon Hendrix <shannon@news.widomaker.com> Subject: Re: unixr6 Message-ID: <slrnb6lefg.im.shannon@news.widomaker.com>  D In article <ud6l16ebp.fsf@earthlink.net>, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:  E > the "official" communication interfaces were SNA ... there has beenfE > some folklore that the complexity of those interfaces are result of @ > project i was on as an undergraduate that has been blaimed for: > originating the PCM (plug compatible manufactor) market.  D SNA seemed pretty messed up when I had to use it for UNIX->mainframe programs.  l  C I've never seen so much configuration, complexity, and code just toa( move a file from one machine to another.  ; But trying to ask IBM for something simpler got no results.b  ) For some clients, we had to use EasyMail.n   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2003 18:55:31 -0800t' From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya)  Subject: Re: VAX again: unix& Message-ID: <3e6aad23$1@news.ucsc.edu>  G In article <b4ct2c$669$8@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:t: >In article <Xns9337843DAF188falkarcabca@205.233.108.180>,' >   Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> wrote:u. >>Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote in" >>news:3E687F50.49492892@ev1.net:  >>> Eugene Miya wrote:8 >>>> In article <8Sp2iWKTI3Mj@eisner.encompasserve.org>,? >>>> Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.aspm.encompasserve.org> wrote:oB >>>> >   Sadly, the VAX was also instrumental to the evolution andH >>>> >   popularity of UNIX.  Of those folks at Berkely hadn't ported it7 >>>> >   to a VAX the rest of might never have seen it! I >>>> I can see it now ... disgruntled VMS users build a cyborg Terminatorf> >>> Terminator to go back and take out Palmer and Dave Cutler. >>H >>Why not go for C.G.Bell who designed the VAX?  Ooops!  he designed the >>PDP-10 also.   >n; >He was project leader.  I would have duct taped his mouth.7  / You have seen the taped duck Homeland Security?u  > I've run into Craig Mudge a couple of times in the past month.! His America's Cup boat (NZ) lost.c         >>Palmer+ >He helped to butcher what remained of DEC.c   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 2003 19:04:09 -0800i' From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya)a Subject: Re: VAX again: unix& Message-ID: <3e6aaf29$1@news.ucsc.edu>  G In article <b4csu7$669$7@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:e' >In article <3e68f4fd$1@news.ucsc.edu>,f, >   eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:4 >>Ah, but before Billy DEC had to get to that point. >d( >DEC was at that point _before_ my time.   That's why I said the PDP-1.  $ >>You are guys are easy to convince.F >>The tough guys are the big money people the DOE (ERDA/AEC) who stillI >>think they influence the computer industry with the Crays and the like.  > ? >They used to influence the biz quite a bit.  DOE was the firstcB >of DEC customers, that I heard about, who wanted heteros to talk > >to each other.  It was our effort that finally managed to put< >all of the learning into a bundled package that didn't need' >expertise tweaking to install and run.f   It was the AEC back then..C Yes, I heard that one of the early DEC engineers committed suicide.     4 >>Even the Russians know PCs are where the power is. >Yea, portable.    Verily.n  F >>The PDP-1 (minis, small address apce) really deserve to get a lot of >>credit (and the LINC). >tA >But it isn't just one thing or the other.  It was a happenstancehA >of efforts where some ideas gelled and became widely distributed ; >products.  You cannot fund an entire company on one singlee >shipment of bits.   Right.  Agreed (amazing huh?).    >>><snip interesting scifi idea> >> >>Hooked you, didn't I?  8^) >h= >Or I was being polite ;-).  The premise did produce a littleY	 >thought.    That thought was the point. 8^)    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Mar 03 22:09:09 +0100e) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)rP Subject: Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses) Message-ID: <85kON5PXerI+@elias.decus.ch>u  ] In article <3E6A355A.3040408@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> writes:a > No more in Switzerland, Paul?  >   * Still here, just trying to reduce spam :-)   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 20:12:03 GMT + From: Ray Zimmerman <raz5150@sbcglobal.net>n Subject: VMS fails to boot, Message-ID: <3E6A4EEA.7020007@sbcglobal.net>  G I recently got a MicroVAX 3100-40 (for free). It came with OpenVMS 7.2 eD is already installed, but it fails during boot up. I'd like to just H start over with a fresh installation, but I don't know how to interrupt B the boot process so that I can "boot dka400" from the SRM console.  H I've check FAQ's and other documentation, but haven't been able to find 
 an answer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 20:34:14 -0400s0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: VMS fails to boot/ Message-ID: <3E6A8BF7.8005288B@vl.videotron.ca>s   Ray Zimmerman wrote:E > is already installed, but it fails during boot up. I'd like to justhI > start over with a fresh installation, but I don't know how to interrupt D > the boot process so that I can "boot dka400" from the SRM console.  L Look on the back on the box. There is a tiny push botton that interrupts the machine and gets you to the >>>n   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 21:01:13 GMTs6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: VMS/WSFTP?M5 Message-ID: <tSsaa.108020$AV5.1240928@news.chello.at>:  ] In article <3E6A3669.5060906@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> writes: J >Is there a WSFTP-like tool running DECWindows to be able to ftp transfer 1 >directories and subdirectories in one drag&drop?a  !   DECW_FTP == "$TCPWARE:DECW_FTP"t   -- I Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERe% Network and OpenVMS system specialistr E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 00:13:25 +0100A4 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> Subject: Re: VMS/WSFTP?c& Message-ID: <3E6A7915.5040702@Free.fr>   is tcpware free?   D.    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:_ > In article <3E6A3669.5060906@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> writes:a > K >>Is there a WSFTP-like tool running DECWindows to be able to ftp transfer h2 >>directories and subdirectories in one drag&drop? >  > # >   DECW_FTP == "$TCPWARE:DECW_FTP"o   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 23:17:10 GMT,6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: VMS/WSFTP? 5 Message-ID: <WRuaa.111768$AV5.1263068@news.chello.at>s  ] In article <3E6A7915.5040702@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> writes:  >is tcpware free?t   Only for OpenVMS hobbyists,,,s   -- i Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERp% Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.133 ************************