1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 09 Mar 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 134       Contents:- Re: (OT) After two months of SAP training :-(  164LX and 21164 question  Re: Booting VMS from Smart Media DECforms Web Connector= Re: How to I interrupt VMS boot up to get to the SRM console?  Re: HSZ monitor from VMS? A Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)   Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions  Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions OpenVMS on Itanium Questions1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants P Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda) SNA did nt allow peer-to-peer (was: Unix) 0 Re: UK Hobbyist seeks personality (for BA356-JC) Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: VAX again: unix G Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses  Re: VMS fails to boot 
 why buy new ? - Re: [OT] After two months of SAP training :-(   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 12:09:03 +0000  From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> 6 Subject: Re: (OT) After two months of SAP training :-(' Message-ID: <3E6B2EE0.D42EF3@Omond.net>   
 VAXVMS wrote:    > Dave Gudewicz wrote:K > > I once heard the SAP = Stops All Production.  After reading what Didier , > > had to say, I'm beginning to believe it. > < > SAP projects tend to be very painfull and very overbudget. > @ > Which you can also read as very profitable for the consultants > doing the implementation ! >  > Arne > M > I once saw a post that said SAP was actually an acronym for a German phrase > > which was either "employment for life" or "income for life". > 4 > And for the life of me I can't find the reference.  ; SAP - Sicherer ArbeitsPlatz (roughly "certain employment").   : Roy Omond (who used to live near SAP HQ Walldorf, Germany) Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 14:41:58 +0000 (UTC)) From: Dan Foster <dsf@globalcrossing.net> ! Subject: 164LX and 21164 question 5 Message-ID: <slrnb6mklj.1si.dsf@gaia.tf.roc.gblx.net>   G Reposting this since I goofed on one of the two newsgroup names late at  night...sorry.  J Since my VAXstation 4000/96 died horribly a while ago, I've been unable toA scare up parts or expertise locally to fix it, nor come up with a . reasonable cost I was willing to put up. So...  K I'm thinking about getting a 164LX for personal hobbyist use to run OpenVMS K 7.2-1 on it, fully well knowing its unsupported status and no guarantees on H how well anything may work, and how picky the device drivers and console: will be about supported devices, etc. That's fine with me.  D The system in question currently has a SRM V5.8-1 console installed;H OpenVMS PALcode V1.21-2 and Digital UNIX PALcode V1.23-2. It is known toK boot, install, and run almost all of the known OSes although the seller has ! not personally tried it with VMS.   J It would also have a LK461-AA, possibly a DE500-BA, possibly a KZPBA-CA orK similar SCSI controller, and two 4.3 GB 68 pin UW SCSI 7200 RPM low profile J HVD/SE hard drives, and I don't recall what the video card was offhand. MyC research indicates that these hardware works with VMS on the 164LX.    Now, I was curious...   E The 21164-P8 CPU was designed for NT; will it not boot into VMS? Do I J absolutely have to have a 21164-KC CPU to boot and run VMS? The reason whyG I ask was because I was curious if this was a technical limitation or a I marketing feature code/pricing thing. The implications being that if this K is indeed a bona fide technical limitation, then I would have to scare up a I 21164-KC CPU instead. If so, is the -KC a drop-in replacement, or would I / have to get a -KC specific motherboard as well?   G The only thing I can find is some sort of memory management difference, J which I presume would be a big show-stopper for booting and running VMS on a -P8 CPU, if true?    -Dan   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 09:47:17 +0000 (UTC)) From: Dan Foster <dsf@globalcrossing.net> ) Subject: Re: Booting VMS from Smart Media 5 Message-ID: <slrnb6m3d3.1si.dsf@gaia.tf.roc.gblx.net>   a In article <<v5vs27dakk8b59@news.supernews.com>>, Island Computers <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote: G > 512MB Cards are available.Is that enough space for basic VMS install? C > If so,has anyone tried booting VMS from a SCSI Smart Card Reader.   I I haven't done that, but I should mention that this is probably best done M with page and swapfile(s) on a separate disk (even if a RAMdisk) because if I > recall correctly, these cards usually have a maximum number ofA reads/writes. Perhaps 100,000 or so? But with heavy access, it is 6 theoretically possible to use it up sooner than later.  G This is how the other people running other OSes off that media do it... K put read-only OS binaries/directory tree structure on the media, but either I run without any swap or put that on some other media to avoid the per-use  tax penalty.   -Dan   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 14:37:19 GMT - From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com>  Subject: DECforms Web Connector < Message-ID: <zkIaa.7904$s75.4120123@twister.columbus.rr.com>  $ Has any one ever used this product ?  < Is there an "official" HP statement of its life expectancy ?  ; V3.0 of Web connector was released over 30 months ago, and  9 the web site reference some pretty old OS (OpenVMS Alpha  9 7.2) and other support items (Java V1.2.2, Apache 1.3.6,   TCP/IP V5.0A). --    
 Jack Patteeuw    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 15:01:13 +0100" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>F Subject: Re: How to I interrupt VMS boot up to get to the SRM console?6 Message-ID: <b4fhfh$1v8tkn$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>  : "Ray Zimmerman" <raz5150@sbcglobal.net> schreef in bericht& news:3E6A7361.9080905@sbcglobal.net...H > I recently got a MicroVAX 3100-40 (for free). It came with OpenVMS 7.2H > already installed, but it fails during boot up. I'd like to just startG > over with a fresh installation, but I don't know how to interrupt the @ > boot process so that I can "boot dka400" from the SRM console. > I > I've check FAQ's and other documentation, but haven't been able to find  > an answer. > I If you have a terminal attached to the OPA0 console port then BREAK or ^P L (control-P) will interrupt the boot process. Other trick: switch the networkI interface from BNC to AUI and make sure there's no loop back connector in H the AUI interface. The power on self test will find an error with test 1; (NI) and halt the system. You can then enter >>> set halt 0    Hans   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2003 10:31:57 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) " Subject: Re: HSZ monitor from VMS?= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0303091031.12d7936a@posting.google.com>   r "Homer J. Simpson" <hsimpson@burnsenergy.com> wrote in message news:<kRaaa.701$vb6.137@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com>...& > FYI - IIRC, HSZterm needs a license.  2 I don't remember HSZterm ever requiring a license.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 03 09:49:23 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) J Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)) Message-ID: <pAcrqBsgL5C+@elias.decus.ch>   [ In article <3E6A91A6.2E642234@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > Paul Sture wrote:  >>  ^ >> In article <3E695A6A.FDE8B11F@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: >> > "David J. Dachtera" wrote:  >> >> [snip]M >> >> I did a comparison of this last year. If I can find the e-mail at work, E >> >> I'll forward it to myself at home and post the good parts here.  >> > >> > O.k. Here's the text... >> >1 >> >> ... here is a brief list of shortcomings in O >> >> "TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS", hereinafter referred to by its former (and O >> >> shorter) name, "UCX". Multinet still gets my vote - UCX has a *LONG*(!!!) 6 >> >> way to go to reach feature parity with Multinet. >>  K >> But licensing costs also come into it. I haven't seen a single new Alpha H >> in the past 5 years or so which didn't come with TCP/IP bundled in as) >> part of the hardware/software package.  > 0 > Doesn't make up for missing key functionality. > ) >> You also need to update your document.  > I > This is from an e-mail to vendor from last summer. Some items are bound  > to be a bit dated. >  >> >> M >> >> For starters, a simple search of the command tables shows that Multinet N >> >> provides some twenty-one(21) separate DCL verbs, while UCX provides only >> >> thirteen(13).  >> >>  >>  A >> But that is not necessarily a true indicator of the underlying  >> functionality.  >  > Weak argument.  F I don't necessarily agree. Someone else pointed out the extra commands= provided in TCPIP$DEFINE_COMMANDS.COM. 41 matches of ":==" in > the V5.3 file. I've just installed the SSH EAK and it's now 51 occurences of ":==".  & Yeah - unix syntax commands, I know...   >  >> >> [snip]/ >> >> Multinet provides for SSH - UCX does not.  >> >>  >>  D >> See this week's announcement about the TCP/IP Early Adopter's Kit > > > SSH in UCX V5.next is client-only. No server on the horizon. >   B Well, I've just installed the SSH EAK, and it contains both client and server.   K The client works straight out of the box. There's obviously a bit more work @ involved in configuring the server, which is my next task today.  5 >> >> Multinet provides a WHOIS client. UCX does not.  >> >> N >> >> UCX still uses dynamic route discovery, which can lead to hung sessions,P >> >> data loss and denial of access. Multinet uses static routes which are more- >> >> reliable and less management intensive.  >> >>  >>  L >> Don't know, but please remember that TCP/IP Services does not necessarily@ >> do things the same way as UCX did (it was ported from Tru64). > J > Actually, unless this has changed in the last 18 mos., I've been at moreH > than one presentation which stated that TCP/IP Services and Tru64's IP! > stack share a common code base.  > > >> >> Multinet provides NFS in the base product. UCX does not. >> >>  >>  F >> Out of date. I was using NFS both as a client and server at least 5
 >> years ago.  >>  > >> >> Multinet provides NTP in the base product. UCX does not. >> >> ? >> >> Multinet provides TFTP in the base product. UCX does not.  >> >>  >>   >> Both untrue.  > H > Both verified accurate. Key phrase: "Base product". Note, however that> > this may have changed since the memo was originally written. >   D That's something I haven't come across. Looking at a license listingE from a properly (rather than Hobbyist) licensed system, I see license : "UCX", last updated in April 1999. Nothing additional - do* licenses such as "UCX-BASE" exist as well?  ? Under what circumstances is this "Base product" license issued?   H >> >> Multinet provides a TALK client in the base product. UCX does not. >> >> M >> >> Multinet provides Remote Magtape functionality in the base product. UCX  >> >> does not.  >> >> P >> >> Multinet provides RSHELL and RUSERS in the base product in addition to RPC3 >> >> and RLOGIN. UCX provides only RPC and RLOGIN.  >> >> N >> >> MULTINET SHOW/CONNECTIONS/SNMP allows the display of active listeners on= >> >> an SNMP-enabled station. UCX does not provide for SNMP.  >> >>  >>  3 >> TCP/IP Services does have SNMP support nowadays.  > H > Now, but not when the memo was originally written, Multinet has had itI > since at least 1999 which is when I first used it to explore situations ( > involving JetDirect cards and servers. >   6 So please update the memo before posting it in public.  G >> On the other side of the coin, it would take us a colossal effort to 2 >> go the other way (TCP/IP Services to Multinet). > H > Shouldn't. The biggest headaches are the print queues and user-defined > services, AFAIK. >   J Well apart from a heavy requirement for retesting, we do have user-defined	 services.    --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2003 09:14:36 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ) Subject: Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions 3 Message-ID: <1TcJneLWbrd3@eisner.encompasserve.org>   l In article <vuIaa.7922$s75.4130332@twister.columbus.rr.com>, Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> writes:  < > I have had my head buried in "other" OSes for many months    You have my condolences.  > > 1) Much of VMS and VMS applications is built around the old > > VAX CALLG and CALLS instruction.  IIRC, Alpha handled these ? > as PAL code (a multiple instruction sequence that can not be  = > interrupted).  I have not heard of anything similar to PAL  : > in the Itanium architecture, so how are CALLG and CALLS  > being handled ?   C To the best of my knowledge, CALLG and CALLS are not implemented in D PALcode on Alpha.  Look at a /MACHINE_CODE listing file and you willB see Alpha VMS stack frames constructed instruction by instruction.  7 > 2) VMS has 4 access modes (IIRC), kernel, executive,  < > supervisor and user.  (Again, IIRC) VAX and Alpha are the > > only architectures that implement 4 modes in hardware.  How $ > is this being handled on Itanium ?  @ You are incorrect regarding the implementation of 4 access modesA in hardware.  Even the later members of the IA32 support 4 access > modes.  Perhaps what you are remembering is that VMS is one ofA the few operating systems that actually makes use of those modes.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 14:53:05 GMT # From: Jonas Lindholm <jlhm@usa.net> ) Subject: Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions & Message-ID: <3E6B5657.8010006@usa.net>   Jack Patteeuw wrote:  J > I have had my head buried in "other" OSes for many months now, but I do 3 > know that VMS has "officially" booted on Itanium.  > I > I have 2 technical questions about the port that may have already been  0 > answered long ago.  If so just give me a link. > H > 1) Much of VMS and VMS applications is built around the old VAX CALLG C > and CALLS instruction.  IIRC, Alpha handled these as PAL code (a  J > multiple instruction sequence that can not be interrupted).  I have not K > heard of anything similar to PAL in the Itanium architecture, so how are  ! > CALLG and CALLS being handled ?  > F > 2) VMS has 4 access modes (IIRC), kernel, executive, supervisor and E > user.  (Again, IIRC) VAX and Alpha are the only architectures that  H > implement 4 modes in hardware.  How is this being handled on Itanium ?    H Also the i386 - i686 (I don't know if i86 - i286 has these 4 modes) and G Itanium architectures can handle 4 access modes in HW but I don't know  ) if any OS have used the 4 modes on Intel.   H The ix86 has a two bit CPL (Current Privilege Level) in the CS register ( that can be used to have 4 access modes.   >  >    /Jonas   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 14:47:55 GMT - From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> % Subject: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions < Message-ID: <vuIaa.7922$s75.4130332@twister.columbus.rr.com>  : I have had my head buried in "other" OSes for many months ? now, but I do know that VMS has "officially" booted on Itanium.   : I have 2 technical questions about the port that may have ; already been answered long ago.  If so just give me a link.   < 1) Much of VMS and VMS applications is built around the old < VAX CALLG and CALLS instruction.  IIRC, Alpha handled these = as PAL code (a multiple instruction sequence that can not be  ; interrupted).  I have not heard of anything similar to PAL  8 in the Itanium architecture, so how are CALLG and CALLS  being handled ?   5 2) VMS has 4 access modes (IIRC), kernel, executive,  : supervisor and user.  (Again, IIRC) VAX and Alpha are the < only architectures that implement 4 modes in hardware.  How " is this being handled on Itanium ?     --    
 Jack Patteeuw    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 09:09:46 +0100 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants) Message-ID: <3E6AF6CA.1010200@vajhoej.dk>    JF Mezei wrote: J > When Islael's army invaded Arafat's compound, the magically produced oneN > cheque in perfect condition that was supposedly signed by a "Saddam Hussein"P > and was alleged to be a payment for a suicide bomber's family. This cheque was4 > never followed through to verify its authenticity.    N > Cheques have bank account numbers on them, and they have all sorts of stampsL > on the back when the cheque clears.  If the cheque was still in the ArafatL > ofices, it means that it had not been cashed. Had it been cashed, it would6 > have been sent back to the originator of the cheque. > N > Also, I find it very interesting that Israel would have found that cheque inO > the ruins of Arafat,s ofice so quickly and that the cheque would have been so  > intact and brand new.   2 I would consider it a good assumption that the bad. guys in this world does not use paper checks !  5 Money transfers from banks in countries that does not 7 tell anything about their customers no matter what they  are involved in.   Good oldfashioned cash.    Sound much more likely.    Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:08:03 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsH Message-ID: <TxKaa.75765$em1.41900@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ) news:3E6A0D64.5345873B@vl.videotron.ca...  > Bill Todd wrote:C > > You're really stretching on this one.  The show is aimed at the  U.S.B > > audience, and is therefore about the FBI rather than the RCMP. > A > Which comes back to the original point that US audiences do not 
 consume stuff D > that originates from abroad in terms of TV/movies. They'll consume foreign B > music as long as it is in english, with a few exceptions now and then.  > F > Elsewhere in the world, folks have no problems consuming programming that is F > set in various locations in the world. But the insular nature of the	 USA means A > that a self-perpetuated "only in the USA" mentality exists, and 
 because itC > exists, the big media outlets don't risk putting on foreign shows  and because F > they don't take that risk, the insular nature strenghtens even more. > F > Did you know that many of the most popular shows in the USA actuallyC > originated abroad (Three's company, Who wants to be a millionaire  etc etc) but> > the USA decided to make their own copy instead of buying the existing show (in " > the above cases, from england) ?     JF,   C The English originals would have, and do, appeal to some in the US. B But many of the colloquialisms, local geographical references, andF indeed the 'accents', don't make the transition very well for the vastE majority of the viewing public. I don't expect Americans to speak the 4 Queen's English any more than I expect a Cockney to.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:14:24 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsG Message-ID: <QDKaa.75809$em1.8588@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:$tV3XAmsEkom@eisner.encompasserve.org... : > In article <3E6A0D64.5345873B@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei) <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:  > > Bill Todd wrote:D > >> You're really stretching on this one.  The show is aimed at the U.S.C > >> audience, and is therefore about the FBI rather than the RCMP.  > > C > > Which comes back to the original point that US audiences do not 
 consume stuff F > > that originates from abroad in terms of TV/movies. They'll consume foreign D > > music as long as it is in english, with a few exceptions now and then.  > > < > > Elsewhere in the world, folks have no problems consuming programming that is D > > set in various locations in the world. But the insular nature of
 the USA means C > > that a self-perpetuated "only in the USA" mentality exists, and 
 because itE > > exists, the big media outlets don't risk putting on foreign shows  and because B > > they don't take that risk, the insular nature strenghtens even more.  > > ? > > Did you know that many of the most popular shows in the USA  actuallyE > > originated abroad (Three's company, Who wants to be a millionaire  etc etc) but@ > > the USA decided to make their own copy instead of buying the existing show (in $ > > the above cases, from england) ? > ) > You are spinning in several directions.  > @ > First, it makes no sense to produce an American show overseas.9 > Production costs would be unacceptable.  So if American > > producers find something that works overseas, sure they will7 > buy the rights and produce it here, or where it makes + > sense to produce it.  That is why Toronto B > is becoming such a hot spot for production, costs are very good!@ > Us insular arrogant Americans know about business, it appears: > : > http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/economic_profile/media.htm > F > American producers in particular are attracted to Toronto because of
 the city's> > pool of top-quality creative and technical talent, excellent
 productionA > facilities and lower costs. The favourable exchange rate on the  Canadian dollar B > means producers can buy more and do more in Toronto. The overall result is thatC > Toronto is now ranked by most Hollywood producers as the equal of  Los Angeles  > and New York City. > D > Toronto is the third-largest film and television production centre in NorthD > America and the second-largest exporter of television programming.C > Film and television is a $1.2 billion dollar industry in Toronto.  >  > 9 > We love Canada, our great trading partner to the north.   E Then get your Congressman and Senator to cease the senseless softwood F lumber dispute. The US has lost at the WTO each and every time specialC interest groups in the US have convinced legislators to act against ? Canada in this matter. This nonsense costs homebuyers in the US E several thousand dollars more per home, and does not increase overall E US lumber production employment. It merely makes the land under which F the tree grows in the US more valuable to the landowner. Nothing more.  B So, back on-topic, why doesn't HP re-open the Kanata facility? The0 same factors apply for tech as they do for film.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:01:45 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsJ Message-ID: <ZrKaa.187644$UXa.107677@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ) news:3E6A9154.226A4A44@vl.videotron.ca...  > Don Sykes wrote:E > > But, I think this discussion is getting way off the mark. I don't  see > > > how this supports the position of the myopic left on Iraq. > A > Actually it doesn't. The insular nature of Americans means that  because theyF > only ever hear one side of the story, especially when any opposition isF > silenced because any dissention would be labeled as "non-patriotic". itE > become extremely easy for that one side to manipulate enough of the  USB > population that polls will show support for a rogue government's plans. > F > The Iraq story is a perfect textbook example of how a government can	 so easily ? > manipulate the population with the media, especially when the 
 opposition@ > remains silent because the govermnent succeeded in saying that anyone opposing  > it would be un-patriotic.  > D > I'll give you a good example of the media-saavy of the current USA government. B > On Friday, Powell left the security council room just in time to give a press@ > conference that began at the same time as the Iraqi ambassador
 started toD > talk. All of the USA media switched to the Powell press conference and E > americans didn't hear the Iraqi response. Powell just repeated what  he had- > said in the security council (nothing new).  > E > One often wonders how leaders in the past were able to proceed with 
 absolutelyC > awful plans that supposedly had the support of population.  I now  realise how  > it was done.     Precisely correct.  A The US Administration is relying on the fact that the bulk of the F english-speaking US population gets its news in soundbites from FOX orC the now dumbed-down CNN Headline News, where an in-depth story runs C for 30 seconds. As far as written news, I suspect that the majority C get their news from either of two noted investigative publications, C USA Today or The National Enquirer (right next to the stories about B alien abduction), if indeed they read much beyond the local county> newspaper filled with breaking stories of gardening tips, road. closures, and the occasional Hollywood gossip.  < Let's not even talk about the Hispanic population. Mere wildA speculation on my part, but I'd be willing to wager $5 that South > Florida papers which cater to the Hispanic market are probablyD demanding that the US take on Iraq's "partner", Cuba, next, as thereF can be absolutely no doubt in any sane (Republican) person's mind that# Cuba is a mortal threat to the USA.   C How many Americans know that when Cuba nationalized US-owned assets B those many years ago, Cuba made formal offers of payment for thoseC assets at then market prices, but that those offers of payment were F rebuffed by the Department of State acting with or without the consentC of the individuals or corporations affected by the nationalization? E How many Americans know that in other countries where US-owned assets D were nationalized, compensation was tendered/negotiated and that wasB the end of the story? Note that US-owned in the above means assets@ owned by US citizens or corporations, not assets owned by the US government. F How many Americans know that Cuba desires normal relations with the USE but that it has been a succession of US Administrations, cowed by the C right and the feeling the need to cater to a vocal minority located 8 mostly in Florida, that has kept sanity from prevailing?  E Alas there is not great intellectual debate and discussion about this E and other important issues in the US any longer. Facts no longer seem @ to matter. Label-pinning accusations of being 'liberal', 'soft',F 'intellectual', or 'communist' are deliberate abuses to stifle seriousE debate and dismiss any alternative proposals from seeing the light of D day. Americans deserve better than this. If the Salem 'witches' wereD having their hallucinations today, the Republicans would be quick toA blame Iraq and accuse Democrats of cowardice for refusing to face  facts.  F Generally speaking, Americans and America are compassionate people andF a compassionate country. But unfortunately for America, Americans, andF the world, when America and Americans forget just what the differencesE between enlightened self-interest and vested self-interest really are ( is when the trouble and backlash occurs.  ? A suggestion for all here: read a copy of 'John Adams' by David F McCullough, ISBN: 0743223136. A fascinating read about a true giant inE American politics. It is this sort of person that Americans should be C striving to elect to public office. Unfortunately for America, if a F person of this caliber ran for elected office today, he'd be shot downD in a withering barrage of attack ads rife with innuendo and outright distortion of the facts.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 12:57:52 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E6B728F.FDF79FFC@vl.videotron.ca>   C > > On one side there is McDonalds, CocaCola, Hollywood and Disney, G > > on the other is all those other (real) cultures strugling for there 
 > > lifes.  N You can judge the american culture the way you wish. But it is a real culture.K It clearly defines the way of life, way of thinking, and of course artistic % expression through music, TV, movies.   M It may not be as refined as the older cultures based on books , paintings and L museums (which the USA also has), but it still defines a culture. And by allM definitions, the USA culture is extremely healthy and strong, so much so that 4 other cultures have problems resisting its adoption.  K The USA culture has been productized, packaged, commercialized and is being G sold to anyone and everyone. And in many ways, the USA acts as the main M distributor of the "global village".  Each country tries to contribute to the F global village by having a part of its culture included in the "globalJ village". Canada exported Bryan Adams,  Leslie Nielsen, Jim Carrey and TomJ Green and many many others. Qubec francophone culture has exported ClineM Dion although in the rest of the world, they only hear her english songs (and M yes, with regards to a previous post, it is a good thing that the rest of the , world isn't submitted to her french songs).   E The problem with a USA-distributed global village is that the USA has M difficulty adopting foreign cultures so it is very hard for a foreign culture R to include its "products" in the global village that gets disseminated everywhere.  L There are exceptions, of course. Living in Qubec, I am exposed to a "FranceM distributed" french-language (as well as other languages) global village that M is independant of the USA distributor. We got the Macarena a full year before N you did.  And the Backstreet Boys were making teenage girls go nuts all aroundH the world EXCEPT in the USA for years before BSB were forced to pre-emptN In-Sync and make their commercial appearance in the USA (they were a USA based group of all ironies).  K In Qubec, we get french movies, but in the USA you don't. You have to wait K for a hollywood remake. And it is the Hollywood remake that makes it around J the world. In principle, it should be the french one that does (especially: sicne thay have so far been much better than the remakes).   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 07:42:34 -0500 ' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda 8 Message-ID: <vddm6v8ts2hmigctpdsiun3h7cc3il9bdv@4ax.com>   John Sauter writes:   7 I don't believe you can have more than one RSX20F-based 8 PDP-11 on a KL10.  I recommend running the DN60 software on the other three.    Eric Smith wrote:   : Wouldn't DN87 software typically be useful to more people?   John Sauter responded:  1 The DN87, if I remember correctly, did DECnet and : served as a terminal concentrator.  If that is more useful4 to you, by all means use it.  I recommended the DN606 series because I had worked on it when I was with DEC.%     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 23:25:21 -0800 ) From: Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> 2 Subject: SNA did nt allow peer-to-peer (was: Unix). Message-ID: <3E6AEC61.2030401@beagle-ears.com>   Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:F > there was joke (from a number of places) that if an internal productG > attempted to jmplement sna support according to the official internal C > sna specification it would never work (boca/s1 was one group that F > complained bitterly about it). the only way to make something reallyE > work was reverse engineering & regression testing with real pu4/pu5  > operation.  E That was no joke; that was experience speaking, I'm sure. Despite the A name, SNA was not an architecture, but a collection of individual C device protocols with some commonality of design - just as BSC was.   G I always assumed that this was done to frustrate 3rd-party implementors E (like me at the time), and I always chuckled at the thought of how it ? would be sure to cause just as much pain within IBM as without.   > The first thing in the SNA world that even approached being an@ architecture was APPN - and we've heard how the people in charge of SNA tried to kill it.  A One of the main ways in which SNA stepped on its own toes was the F insistence that SNA is a universe with a strict hierachical structure;B there can be no peer-to-peer relationship. I'm sure this technicalD axiom is derived from an attempt to mirror the hierachical structureD of a Fortune 100 company in the 1960'es. But in Denmark, this led to9 a perverse irony. IBM had achieved complete market win ins: (a) government, both national and association of counties.9 (b) banking - each major bank running its own MVS system.n  A Around 1978, both the governments and the banks wanted to link upP= and implement shared systems, but had difficulty creating theoB required hierachical structures. In the government case, it shouldC have been feasible, and I never quite understood why they could nota> agree that the national system was at the root of the network.C Probably the problem was just the logistics: Each network was largetB enough that they did not want to have to re-gen the network tables6 when one of the other 4 regions added a few terminals.  ? In the bank case, the problem was fundamental: Akin to the X.25b? problem of network-to-network connections needing a symmetricaln> protocol, because one sovereign nation cannot allow another to> be "master" of te interconnect. When the stock exchange wanted? to distribute near-realtime trading data to the banks, the onlyr= viable solution turned out to be to build a distribution node-: that looked like a terminal to the networks of each of the? subscribing banks. This node was a PDP-11/60 at the typesettingc6 company that had been typesetting daily stock listings< and dsitributing them to each of the daily newspapers in the country.   --  H / Lars Poulsen        +1-805-569-5277   http://www.beagle-ears.com/lars/I    125 South Ontare Rd, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 USA  lars@beagle-ears.como   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2003 10:37:54 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) 9 Subject: Re: UK Hobbyist seeks personality (for BA356-JC)s= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0303091037.3fdb1189@posting.google.com>a  w "Chris Townley" <news_ac@townleyc.NOSPAM.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<b4b9rt$1cd$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>...hK > However I need a personality module - I have managed to obtain a BA35X-MGlL > with two interfaces, but I gather this is 8 bit, whereas I gather I need a" > BA35X-MH for the wide interface.  C I needed an 8-bit (-MG) module myself recently and got one on E-bay:F for US$10.  I've also seen the 16-bit (-MG) available.  Might be worth watching there.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 23:41:11 -0800.) From: Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com>d Subject: Re: unixg. Message-ID: <3E6AF017.2010109@beagle-ears.com>  8 In article <168j6vghakh5k494puvjo9776jj6n07j17@4ax.com>,:      Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:A >>IBM would only buy a VAX to check if DEC were infringing on anyl >>of their patents:    jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:E > Nope.  Another reason IBM would buy a VAX is to test their softwaresB > if it had to talk to a VAX.  Even computer manufactureres bought; > computers based on the job it had to perform.  For years,s+ > DEC used a Burroughs to do their payroll.i  E And in the case of IBM Federal Systems, the project group would build C a system on the foundation most likely to work. In some cases, thati@ might be a VAX/VMS system even though one might speculate that a@ Series/1 or a System/34 could possibly be tweaked to do the job.  B As a 3rd-party subcontractor, my employer was often invited to bid? our VAX-compatible subsystems into an IBM-FSD bid for a Federala> Agency. I was very impressed that IBM allowed FSD to bid basedC on the customer's best interest rather than on what maximized IBM'st participation percentage.v -- hH / Lars Poulsen        +1-805-569-5277   http://www.beagle-ears.com/lars/I    125 South Ontare Rd, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 USA  lars@beagle-ears.como   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 09 Mar 03 12:59:31 GMTa From: jmfbahciv@aol.comn Subject: Re: unix + Message-ID: <b4fggd$p01$4@bob.news.rcn.net>i  ' In article <3E68E1EF.CA7842E3@ev1.net>, -    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:l >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:f >> s* >> In article <3E687E2C.9825A3ED@ev1.net>,0 >>    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote: >> >Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:P >> >>i9 >> >>        [snip...]        [snip...]         [snip...]  >> >>M@ >> >>         Hmm - It's a scary thought that the PC and/or x86  architecture) >> >> might one day induce fond memories.g >> >>sH >> > Yeah, "fond memories" like two old war buddies remembering D-Day... >> > >> But didn't we win that one? >>? >I believe that we will win this one too...but there is alreadyn; >great suffering and gnashing of teeth over Mi$uck and x86.b  > Once people know they don't have to rebuild the system as SOP.9 And people are getting to the point where they don't wanth; to wait for that printer to finish in order to write up theb= next document or play a game or fart around in the newsgroupsm: while waiting for the job to finish.  My!  That sound like. Intel's latest hardware assist announcement.     /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.e   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 09 Mar 03 13:04:24 GMTb From: jmfbahciv@aol.comr Subject: Re: unix,+ Message-ID: <b4fgpj$p01$5@bob.news.rcn.net>t  ) In article <ufzpx6ff3.fsf@earthlink.net>,a/    Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:- >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:F >> Nope.  Another reason IBM would buy a VAX is to test their softwareC >> if it had to talk to a VAX.  Even computer manufactureres bought.< >> computers based on the job it had to perform.  For years,, >> DEC used a Burroughs to do their payroll. >eC >my brother (at the time regional marketing for apple) talked aboutdB >using his appleII to dial into the hdqtrs s/38 to check on ships,C >schedules, and other things. he claimed that he had some advantage.G >over most of the other marketing types having come up from a technical9G >background ... and figured out how to get into and use the hdqtrs data:E >processing machine (somewhere along the line i believe they upgraded  >from s/38 to as/400).  @ Neat!  TOPS-10 eventually learned that using one's own products = helped customer satisfaction, prevented abject embarrassment,t? and forced hotshots to fix what they broke yesterday.  TW hated ) this when we had to run the soup monitor.    /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.l   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 09 Mar 03 13:07:34 GMTI From: jmfbahciv@aol.comh Subject: Re: unix + Message-ID: <b4fgvg$p01$6@bob.news.rcn.net>u  . In article <3E6AF017.2010109@beagle-ears.com>,-    Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:l9 >In article <168j6vghakh5k494puvjo9776jj6n07j17@4ax.com>,o; >     Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:CB >>>IBM would only buy a VAX to check if DEC were infringing on any >>>of their patents: e >t >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: F >> Nope.  Another reason IBM would buy a VAX is to test their softwareC >> if it had to talk to a VAX.  Even computer manufactureres bought0< >> computers based on the job it had to perform.  For years,, >> DEC used a Burroughs to do their payroll. >3F >And in the case of IBM Federal Systems, the project group would buildD >a system on the foundation most likely to work. In some cases, thatA >might be a VAX/VMS system even though one might speculate that aoA >Series/1 or a System/34 could possibly be tweaked to do the job.- >-C >As a 3rd-party subcontractor, my employer was often invited to bid.@ >our VAX-compatible subsystems into an IBM-FSD bid for a Federal? >Agency. I was very impressed that IBM allowed FSD to bid based.D >on the customer's best interest rather than on what maximized IBM's >participation percentage.  @ DEC got sales in the 60s and 70s because IBM was not so liberal.@ In the 80s, DEC got snobby and IBM became hetero.  Q.E.D.  GuessD who was successful?  It's about time for IBM to swing the other way.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 09 Mar 03 13:10:35 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.come Subject: Re: unix>+ Message-ID: <b4fh55$p01$7@bob.news.rcn.net>   ) In article <zDK30IqnVoaT@elias.decus.ch>,a-    p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:rF >In article <b47ca1$ahj$9@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:, >> In article <w1Uf0EQpJryo@elias.decus.ch>,0 >>    p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:H >>>In article <b3sofh$rp0$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >h ><snip>o >w >>>>>/D >>>>>Memories of a DEC comms program back in the late 1970s here. ItF >>>>>could have saved us an awful lot of money but didn't work. We hadF >>>>>the source for at least some of it, but all the comments had been  >>>>>stripped. Plain stupid IMO. >>>>>iC >>>> I don't believe that.  I would believe that the comments nevera >>>> existed.  h >>>> i >>> G >>>This was a piece of RT11 macro which was supposed to talk to an IBM.  >>> G >>>It appeared that someone had run an editing macro against the source @ >>>to search for a semicolon and then delete to the end of line. >>> I >>>I don't remember the exact details, but the evidence convinced me thatr >>>was what had happened.A >> OF >> The only reason (that I can think of) is that the IBM protocol usedC >> to talk to the device was proprietary(sp?) and the last edit to dD >> the source had to be stripping the documenation (which is rather = >> silly but then those lawyer-genrated edicts usually were).u >>   >/0 >That _does_ sound a very plausible explanation.  ? That's the only one I can think of that makes sense; especiallytE with the RT-11 guys....unless they got a VMS-shoulder-chip infection.eA I think the only guys who were saner than the RT-11s were the IAS  guys.v   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 10:03:58 -0700> From: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Subject: Re: unix + Message-ID: <3E6B73FE.8030603@jetnet.ab.ca>n   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  B > DEC got sales in the 60s and 70s because IBM was not so liberal.B > In the 80s, DEC got snobby and IBM became hetero.  Q.E.D.  GuessF > who was successful?  It's about time for IBM to swing the other way.  F I guess it is a good time to bring my TTL XT killer PC to market then.F Long live 24 bit cpu's. The real money maker is your 99 cent , 4 and 84 bit micro computers that control everything nowdays. Ben.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 18:53:15 +0000e- From: David Powell <ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk>n Subject: Re: unixe8 Message-ID: <0d2n6v0s8vgkk2oudbtaac6b0fkfeshvm6@4ax.com>  - In article <b4fh55$p01$7@bob.news.rcn.net>,  o4  jmfbahciv@aol.com  in alt.folklore.computers wrote:  * >In article <zDK30IqnVoaT@elias.decus.ch>,. >   p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:G >>In article <b47ca1$ahj$9@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: - >>> In article <w1Uf0EQpJryo@elias.decus.ch>,t1 >>>    p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote:sI >>>>In article <b3sofh$rp0$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:  >> >><snip> >> >>>>>>E >>>>>>Memories of a DEC comms program back in the late 1970s here. ItsG >>>>>>could have saved us an awful lot of money but didn't work. We had G >>>>>>the source for at least some of it, but all the comments had beeno! >>>>>>stripped. Plain stupid IMO.  >>>>>>D >>>>> I don't believe that.  I would believe that the comments never >>>>> existed.   >>>>>  >>>>H >>>>This was a piece of RT11 macro which was supposed to talk to an IBM. >>>>H >>>>It appeared that someone had run an editing macro against the sourceA >>>>to search for a semicolon and then delete to the end of line.t >>>>J >>>>I don't remember the exact details, but the evidence convinced me that >>>>was what had happened. >>> G >>> The only reason (that I can think of) is that the IBM protocol usedcD >>> to talk to the device was proprietary(sp?) and the last edit to E >>> the source had to be stripping the documenation (which is rather m> >>> silly but then those lawyer-genrated edicts usually were). >>>  >>1 >>That _does_ sound a very plausible explanation.a >T@ >That's the only one I can think of that makes sense; especiallyF >with the RT-11 guys....unless they got a VMS-shoulder-chip infection.B >I think the only guys who were saner than the RT-11s were the IAS >guys. >s  4 I've always found RT11 guys a pretty sane bunch. :-)   ;+@ ; Nevertheless, comment stripped sources were the norm for RT11.? ; There's even a specification for commentary in the RT11 MACRO-= ; doc-set to facilitate automated stripping.  Like this para.a ;-  E DEC shipped sources with RT to allow resolution of hardware / monitorp> specific conditional assembly pseudo-ops, and for source levelE bug-fixes.  Why give away the commentary, when you can sell commenteda< sources separately?  Just save a couple of DECtapes in every@ distribution kit, and make life easier for guys with entry-levelE systems to actually edit sources when needed.  It can be real fun andrF games to TECO a 250 block commented source on just a pair of 578 blockC DECtapes and an 11/05.  Much easier with a 150 block stripped file:,D that's about as big as they came; I don't think that's an accident.    Just my 2d's worth.f   Regards,   David P. .        ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 09 Mar 03 13:18:33 GMTa From: jmfbahciv@aol.coml Subject: Re: VAX again: unix+ Message-ID: <b4fhk3$p01$9@bob.news.rcn.net>   & In article <3e6aaf29$1@news.ucsc.edu>,+    eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:eH >In article <b4csu7$669$7@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:( >>In article <3e68f4fd$1@news.ucsc.edu>,- >>   eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:h5 >>>Ah, but before Billy DEC had to get to that point.  >>) >>DEC was at that point _before_ my time.f >o >That's why I said the PDP-1.-  7 I don't know how DEC did things during that time frame.    > % >>>You are guys are easy to convince.OG >>>The tough guys are the big money people the DOE (ERDA/AEC) who stillaJ >>>think they influence the computer industry with the Crays and the like. >>@ >>They used to influence the biz quite a bit.  DOE was the firstC >>of DEC customers, that I heard about, who wanted heteros to talk  ? >>to each other.  It was our effort that finally managed to put = >>all of the learning into a bundled package that didn't needl( >>expertise tweaking to install and run. >  >It was the AEC back then.  > Right but there was enough cybercurd in this post already :-).  D >Yes, I heard that one of the early DEC engineers committed suicide.  = Don't know.  I always thought that one had to be nuts to work : in the computer biz in first place.  The only advantage of= working with computers is that you got to have A/C during ther summer months  :-)).   <snip>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.I   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 15:15:49 +0100" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>P Subject: Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses6 Message-ID: <b4fiat$1u8069$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>  8 "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> schreef in bericht# news:f+q05FFxmU8$@elias.decus.ch... ? > In article <4f886957.0303070634.3c205e92@posting.google.com>, + gary.morin@emergis.com (Gary Morin) writes:cD > > I have a VAXStation 4000-90 that I use without the display tube.E > > Every time I boot the box it reports a console level error on the"J > > graphics board.  Since I was tired of geeting the errors I removed theG > > graphics card and when I rebooted all of the VMS licenses failed toy? > > load.  When I selected the "license requirements" option inkG > > vmslicense.com it came back with a list that showed that no licenseAH > > group is valid.  When I put the card back in everything loaded but I5 > > still got the hardware boot error on the console.e > >I >vF > I believe that without the graphics board, VMS decides it's a server@ > rather than workstation, hence requires server level licenses. >o [snip]   Paul,l  D without the graphics card the VAX looses its identity and VMS cannotL determine what it is. Because it cannot find a match, LMF decides that _all_L license types are invalid. In another post in this thread (did that one findL its way out?) I suggested to keep the board in and put a passive load on theI three color outlets. That way the boards is fooled into believing there'saD still a monitor attached and will happily continue the boot process.H I do not know what input impedance a monitor uses, but a single resistor might do the trick.e   Hans   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 03 07:57:28 +0100 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)r Subject: Re: VMS fails to boot) Message-ID: <2eVMP7P2LpL8@elias.decus.ch>c  Z In article <3E6A4EEA.7020007@sbcglobal.net>, Ray Zimmerman <raz5150@sbcglobal.net> writes:I > I recently got a MicroVAX 3100-40 (for free). It came with OpenVMS 7.2  F > is already installed, but it fails during boot up. I'd like to just J > start over with a fresh installation, but I don't know how to interrupt D > the boot process so that I can "boot dka400" from the SRM console. > J > I've check FAQ's and other documentation, but haven't been able to find  > an answer. >   @ There's a small button at the rear (marked with a triangle IIRC)3 which you press twice to get to the console prompt.n  9 Better yet, see the VAXStation Model 76 Owner's Guide at b  5 http://www.whiteice.com/~williamwebb/intro/DOC-I.HTML.  1 Most things should be the same as for your model.y   -- r
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 13:10:26 -0500, From: "David Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com> Subject: why buy new ?/ Message-ID: <v6n13h1sds6b0f@news.supernews.com>4  2 Complete VMS Ready Alpha Systems starting at $699.  ' EV6 Systems starting at $779 configuredi   All with 1 Year Warranty!!!7   Island Computers US Corp.l 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404h Tel: 912 4476622 Fax: 912 2010402 http://www.islandco.coms   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 17:25:50 +0000 (UTC)) From: Dan Foster <dsf@globalcrossing.net>s6 Subject: Re: [OT] After two months of SAP training :-(5 Message-ID: <slrnb6mu8q.1si.dsf@gaia.tf.roc.gblx.net>i  c In article <<3E68C160.5912ED31@vl.videotron.ca>>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:b > Didier Morandi wrote:gF >> a) most of the modules are programmed by different teams who followJ >> different GUI rules (screens layouts, position of buttons, exit buttons# >> with different names, etc. etc.)  > < > I knew SAP was bloated, but I had no idea is was that bad.  U That's the most charitable thing I've ever heard about SAP, including from the people ' who do the actual SAP module coding :-)o  F I have a friend who used to do SAP work for his manufacturing company.  J He is a smart man... can handle physics, art, music, computer programming,H engineering, statistics, higher math (advanced calculus, etc), finances, etc.  J But SAP drove him nuts :-) He said that to write a simple, small module...J it took him at least 3-4 days because he had to go talk with various otherG SAP people in his company, each of which were responsible for knowing aoJ particular module in depth, to ask them what the data fields were, and theG allowable values, and the API for the functions involving them, and any J documentation (sometimes non-existent, or in another obscure language fromH some of the outsourced consultants). The way it was structured, he *had*G to talk with these people... in person, and that was not very efficientgJ at all. Doing it on his own? Well, the index was about 700 pages alone. :)E That's the index for the module documentation. They also had to grantFG permission for an extension after understanding how the proposed module 6 or procedure would fit in with the overall SAP system.  E 3 to 4 days just to cobble together a functional 100 line SAP programt@ that might not do much at all. If that needed other functions orD procedures, repeat this whole thing. Doesn't matter if it's a 5 line program that does 'SET FOO=1'.  E I did not really understand how bad it was until he showed me the SAPxF manuals and local documentation... *WOW*. I find that even being an OSJ developer (VMS, Solaris, whatever) is *easier*! They are large and complexJ projects, too, but at least they have much more logic and usable structure- involved, and much less inefficient overhead.   G SAP is... just one big money maker for the manufacturer and the various  consultants!  H Well, he said that one thing that may make it easier for people to learnD SAP is when they roll out the Java support. But still... the overall	 system...c  A Oracle is *much* easier to learn than SAP by orders of magnitude.lG (Although Oracle's licensing costs is well beyond ridiculous... we havedE Sybase licenses at 1% of the Oracle licensing cost! DB2 is higher but?$ not anywhere near as bad as Oracle.)   -Dan   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.134 ************************