1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 10 Mar 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 135       Contents: Re: 164LX and 21164 question Re: 164LX and 21164 question> Re: Advanced Server 7.3A vs 7.2 file name handing differences?$ Another OpenVMS on Itanium Questions Re: Carly's feedback link  Re: Carly's feedback link  Re: Carly's feedback link  Re: Carly's feedback link # Re: How to find nonsequential files ) RE: hp DECforms V3.3 Product Announcement ) Re: hp DECforms V3.3 Product Announcement ) RE: hp DECforms V3.3 Product Announcement  Re: HSZ monitor from VMS? < Re: Maximum Record Size Error (BUCKET - CLUSTER SIZE detour)A Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices) . newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnet2 Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnet2 Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnet2 Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnet2 Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnet2 Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnet2 Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnet Re: Northern Light kaput. * Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlaying% Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue) % Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)   Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions  Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions  Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants  OT: Definition of a troll  Re: Portmapping  Re: Portmapping  Re: Portmapping  Re: RMS version numberP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda- The Inquirer: Why Isn't HP Promoting OpenVMS? 0 Re: UK Hobbyist seeks personality (for BA356-JC) Re: VMS fails to boot  Re: why buy new ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 13:49:40 -0500, From: "David Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com>% Subject: Re: 164LX and 21164 question / Message-ID: <v6n3d0j3sben50@news.supernews.com>   $ the pc164lx runs vms perfectly well.    6 "Dan Foster" <dsf@globalcrossing.net> wrote in message/ news:slrnb6mklj.1si.dsf@gaia.tf.roc.gblx.net... I > Reposting this since I goofed on one of the two newsgroup names late at  > night...sorry. > L > Since my VAXstation 4000/96 died horribly a while ago, I've been unable toC > scare up parts or expertise locally to fix it, nor come up with a 0 > reasonable cost I was willing to put up. So... > E > I'm thinking about getting a 164LX for personal hobbyist use to run  OpenVMS J > 7.2-1 on it, fully well knowing its unsupported status and no guarantees onJ > how well anything may work, and how picky the device drivers and console< > will be about supported devices, etc. That's fine with me. > F > The system in question currently has a SRM V5.8-1 console installed;J > OpenVMS PALcode V1.21-2 and Digital UNIX PALcode V1.23-2. It is known toI > boot, install, and run almost all of the known OSes although the seller  has # > not personally tried it with VMS.  > L > It would also have a LK461-AA, possibly a DE500-BA, possibly a KZPBA-CA orE > similar SCSI controller, and two 4.3 GB 68 pin UW SCSI 7200 RPM low  profile L > HVD/SE hard drives, and I don't recall what the video card was offhand. MyE > research indicates that these hardware works with VMS on the 164LX.  >  > Now, I was curious...  > G > The 21164-P8 CPU was designed for NT; will it not boot into VMS? Do I L > absolutely have to have a 21164-KC CPU to boot and run VMS? The reason whyI > I ask was because I was curious if this was a technical limitation or a K > marketing feature code/pricing thing. The implications being that if this K > is indeed a bona fide technical limitation, then I would have to scare up  a K > 21164-KC CPU instead. If so, is the -KC a drop-in replacement, or would I 1 > have to get a -KC specific motherboard as well?  > I > The only thing I can find is some sort of memory management difference, L > which I presume would be a big show-stopper for booting and running VMS on > a -P8 CPU, if true?  >  > -Dan   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 03:39:16 +0000 (UTC) ) From: Dan Foster <dsf@globalcrossing.net> % Subject: Re: 164LX and 21164 question 5 Message-ID: <slrnb6o273.1si.dsf@gaia.tf.roc.gblx.net>   Z In article <<3E6BFA93.F3512E2D@fsi.net>>, David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > pbc wrote: >>  O >> Just go ahead and try this CPU. It may work fine. I may be wrong but with NT % >> only CPU you never see SRM prompt.  >  > VMS needs SRM. > $ > Linux can live with or without it.  J Thanks to everybody who posted with helpful information. I will definitelyK give it a shot, then. The sellers are long-time DEC users and resellers for L about 20-25 years and are understanding of the interest in using it for VMS.  I (I am also aware of the excellent reputation of the Islandco people and I K will most certainly consider their hardware for future purchases. I am also K indebted to the individual who so helpfully offered unneeded VAX parts, and & other equally as helpful individuals.)  I They say that the 164LX in question currently has SRM loaded, and it's at K the latest (V5.8-1), and the VMS PALcode seems to be at the latest version. A I've got all my ducks lined up, device and OS compatibility-wise.   G It's currently being used as a Linux box, which I think is a real shame E considering what it could have been running (VMS) :-) I've got enough H hardware here capable of running Linux, but nothing that can run VMS! To be remedied shortly.   -Dan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:32:14 -05005 From: "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccuskerNosp@Mcompaq.com> G Subject: Re: Advanced Server 7.3A vs 7.2 file name handing differences? / Message-ID: <v6o1q46il7dd56@corp.supernews.com>    Hi Clay,  I Can you save me some time here and point me to just the files you can not L access from the PC?  Point me to 3 or 4 if you can.  Nothing sounds familiar or jumps out at me here.  B Two quick ideas to check - Disable Alias file names and/or DisableJ Opportunistic Locking.  Should find both in the release notes or maybe theF Admin guide.  These are both guesses, and will probably require server	 restarts.   E By the way, this should probably be escalated to the customer support  center.   
 Brad McCusker  OpenVMS Engineering   < "Clay M. Denton" <denton@orison.dsserv.com> wrote in message2 news:1oue6v830vuhmpk1du6vkstchkg18lmd3q@4ax.com...I > I have a number of files that were created from a W2K PC and saved on a  VMS AdvancedD > Server 7.2 system.  All file operations were normal at that point. > H > After upgrading the system to AS 7.3A. a number of the files cannot ba accessed (with/ > different useless errors on the Windows box).  > L > OS is VMS 7.2-2 , ECO 1 is loaded onto AS 7.3A.  The particular VMS volume	 is ODS-5.  > I > Here is what some look like from the VMS side (yes, they're MP3 files):  >  > " > Directory MUSICDISK1:[Classical] > , > BBC^_Symphony^_Orchestra^_^&^_Chorus.DIR;1L >                                         3/3        13-AUG-2002 10:00:17.42 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE) L > Paul^_Lewis.DIR;1                       1/2         1-SEP-2002 14:31:01.30 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE) 3 > Schubert^_-^_Goodman^_-^_The^_Hanover^_Band.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        24-AUG-2002 14:46:43.45 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  > K Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_in^_the^_Fields.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        25-AUG-2002 20:17:23.16 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE) D > Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players.DIR;1L >                                         1/1        24-AUG-2002 13:26:37.98 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE) 8 > Vivaldi^_-^_Turovsky^_-^_I^_Musici^_De^_Montreal.DIR;1L >                                         1/2        27-AUG-2002 11:00:51.06 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >   > Total of 6 files, 8/10 blocks. > G > Directory MUSICDISK1:[Classical.BBC^_Symphony^_Orchestra^_^&^_Chorus]  >  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Inter
 lude^_-.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:03:20.67 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Intro duction^_-.DIR;1L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:01:34.37 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_March ing^_in^_Close^_Ra-.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:04:21.27 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Philo sophers^_-.DIR;1L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:02:37.42 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Revol ution^_-.DIR;1L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:09:08.92 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Symph ony^_-.DIR;1L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:17:00.81 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_The^_ Constitution^_-.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:19:17.14 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_The^_ Pledge^_-.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:14:38.64 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Victo ry^_-.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:11:35.26 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 9 files, 9/9 blocks.  >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.BBC^_Symphony^_Orchestra^_^&^_Chorus.Cantata^_for^_theC ^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Interlude^_-]  > ? > BBC^_Music^_Vol^.^_V^,^_No^.^_2-^_^_October^_Revolution.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:03:20.72 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[5574,1,0] >  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Inter! lude^_-^_-^_04^_-^_Sergei^_.mp3;1 L >                                      4740/4740     13-AUG-2002 10:02:49.09 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Inter! lude^_-^_-^_06^_-^_Sergei^_.mp3;1 L >                                      4307/4307     13-AUG-2002 10:04:30.64 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > % > Total of 2 files, 9047/9047 blocks.  >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.BBC^_Symphony^_Orchestra^_^&^_Chorus.Cantata^_for^_theF ^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Introduction^_-] > ? > BBC^_Music^_Vol^.^_V^,^_No^.^_2-^_^_October^_Revolution.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:01:34.56 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[5566,1,0] >  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Intro duction^_-^_-^_02^_-^_S.mp3;1 L >                                      8410/8410     13-AUG-2002 10:00:38.51 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > $ > Total of 1 file, 8410/8410 blocks. >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.BBC^_Symphony^_Orchestra^_^&^_Chorus.Cantata^_for^_theL ^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Marching^_in^_Close^_R a-]  > ? > BBC^_Music^_Vol^.^_V^,^_No^.^_2-^_^_October^_Revolution.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:04:21.31 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[5578,1,0] >  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_March ing^_in^_Clos.mp3;1 L >                                      6752/6752     13-AUG-2002 10:03:35.25 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > $ > Total of 1 file, 6752/6752 blocks. >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.BBC^_Symphony^_Orchestra^_^&^_Chorus.Cantata^_for^_theF ^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Philosophers^_-] > ? > BBC^_Music^_Vol^.^_V^,^_No^.^_2-^_^_October^_Revolution.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:02:37.59 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[5570,1,0] >  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Philo sophers^_-^_-^_03^_-^_S.mp3;1 L >                                      6973/6973     13-AUG-2002 10:01:50.75 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > $ > Total of 1 file, 6973/6973 blocks. >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.BBC^_Symphony^_Orchestra^_^&^_Chorus.Cantata^_for^_theD ^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Revolution^_-] > ? > BBC^_Music^_Vol^.^_V^,^_No^.^_2-^_^_October^_Revolution.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:09:09.08 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[5584,1,0] >  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Revol ution^_-^_-^_07^_-^_Serge.mp3;1 L >                                     28815/28815    13-AUG-2002 10:05:55.84 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > & > Total of 1 file, 28815/28815 blocks. >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.BBC^_Symphony^_Orchestra^_^&^_Chorus.Cantata^_for^_theB ^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Symphony^_-] > ? > BBC^_Music^_Vol^.^_V^,^_No^.^_2-^_^_October^_Revolution.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:17:00.84 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[5596,1,0] >  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Symph" ony^_-^_-^_10^_-^_Sergei^_Pr.mp3;1L >                                     16901/16901    13-AUG-2002 10:15:08.21 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > & > Total of 1 file, 16901/16901 blocks. >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.BBC^_Symphony^_Orchestra^_^&^_Chorus.Cantata^_for^_theK ^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_The^_Constitution^_-]  > ? > BBC^_Music^_Vol^.^_V^,^_No^.^_2-^_^_October^_Revolution.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:19:17.29 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[5600,1,0] >  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_The^_ Constitution^_-^_.mp3;1 L >                                     16089/16089    13-AUG-2002 10:17:28.93 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > & > Total of 1 file, 16089/16089 blocks. >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.BBC^_Symphony^_Orchestra^_^&^_Chorus.Cantata^_for^_theE ^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_The^_Pledge^_-]  > ? > BBC^_Music^_Vol^.^_V^,^_No^.^_2-^_^_October^_Revolution.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:14:38.68 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[5592,1,0] >  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_The^_  Pledge^_-^_-^_09^_-^_Serge.mp3;1L >                                     21218/21218    13-AUG-2002 10:12:13.44 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > & > Total of 1 file, 21218/21218 blocks. >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.BBC^_Symphony^_Orchestra^_^&^_Chorus.Cantata^_for^_theA ^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Victory^_-]  > ? > BBC^_Music^_Vol^.^_V^,^_No^.^_2-^_^_October^_Revolution.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        13-AUG-2002 10:11:35.41 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[5588,1,0] >  > L Cantata^_for^_the^_20th^_Anniversary^_of^_the^_October^_Revolution-^_^_Victo# ry^_-^_-^_08^_-^_Sergei^_Prok.mp3;1 L >                                     16990/16990    13-AUG-2002 10:09:41.53 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > & > Total of 1 file, 16990/16990 blocks. > . > Directory MUSICDISK1:[Classical.Paul^_Lewis] >  > L Beethoven^_Piano^_Sonata^_in^_E^_flat^,^_Op^_81a^_^(Les^_Adiuex^)^_-^_Das^_L ebewohl^_^(Adagio.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1         1-SEP-2002 14:31:01.76 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.Paul^_Lewis.Beethoven^_Piano^_Sonata^_in^_E^_flat^,^_O4 p^_81a^_^(Les^_Adiuex^)^_-^_Das^_Lebewohl^_^(Adagio] >  > L Beethoven^_Piano^_Sonata^_^'Les^_Adieux^'^_and^_music^_by^_Mendelssohn^,^_Li szt^_^&^_Schubert.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1         1-SEP-2002 14:31:01.80 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[7843,1,0] >  > L Beethoven^_Piano^_Sonata^_in^_E^_flat^,^_Op^_81a^_^(Les^_Adiuex^)^_-^_Das^_L ebewohl^_^(.mp3;1 L >                                     20767/20767     1-SEP-2002 14:28:19.28 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > & > Total of 1 file, 20767/20767 blocks. >  > Directory B MUSICDISK1:[Classical.Schubert^_-^_Goodman^_-^_The^_Hanover^_Band] > 3 > Schubert^_-^_Goodman^_-^_The^_Hanover^_Band.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        24-AUG-2002 14:46:43.57 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.Schubert^_-^_Goodman^_-^_The^_Hanover^_Band.Schubert^_" -^_Goodman^_-^_The^_Hanover^_Band] > - > Schubert^_Symphonies^_4^,^_6^,^_^&^_9.DIR;1 L >                                         1/3        24-AUG-2002 14:46:43.69 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/3 blocks. >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[7226,1,0] >  >  > L Schubert^_-^_Goodman^_-^_The^_Hanover^_Band^_-^_01^_-^_Sym^.^_No^.^_9^_in^_CL ^_major^,^_D^.^_944^,^_-Great--^_Andante-Allegro^_ma^_no^_troppo-^_Piu^_moto .mp3;1L >                                     46175/46175    24-AUG-2002 15:39:09.56 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > & > Total of 1 file, 46175/46175 blocks. >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_ in^_the^_Fields] >  > K Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_in^_the^_Fields.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        25-AUG-2002 20:17:23.23 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_L in^_the^_Fields.Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_in^_th
 e^_Fields] > 7 > Mozart-^_Symphonies^_34-41^_^(Vol^_2^,Disc^_5^).DIR;1 L >                                         2/2        25-AUG-2002 20:17:23.28 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 2/2 blocks. >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[7381,1,0] >  > L Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_in^_the^_Fields^_-^_01 ^_-^_Minuet^_for^_a^_.mp3;1 L >                                     17955/17955    25-AUG-2002 20:15:12.65 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_in^_the^_Fields^_-^_02 ^_-^_Sym^.^_No^.^_37^_i.mp3;1 L >                                      5111/5111     25-AUG-2002 20:17:36.34 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_in^_the^_Fields^_-^_03 ^_-^_Sym^.^_No^.^_38^_i.mp3;1 L >                                     40034/40034    25-AUG-2002 20:19:40.19 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_in^_the^_Fields^_-^_04 ^_-^_Andante.mp3;1L >                                     25596/25596    25-AUG-2002 20:25:07.92 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_in^_the^_Fields^_-^_05 ^_-^_Finale^_^(Prest.mp3;1L >                                     17158/17158    25-AUG-2002 20:28:36.44 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_in^_the^_Fields^_-^_06 ^_-^_Sym^.^_No^.^_39^_i.mp3;1 L >                                     30846/30846    25-AUG-2002 20:31:31.03 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_in^_the^_Fields^_-^_07 ^_-^_Andante^_con^_m.mp3;1L >                                     23065/23065    25-AUG-2002 20:36:20.31 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_in^_the^_Fields^_-^_08 ^_-^_Menuetto^_^(All.mp3;1L >                                     11299/11299    25-AUG-2002 20:39:13.69 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Sir^_Neville^_Marriner^_-^_Academy^_of^_St^.^_Martin^_in^_the^_Fields^_-^_09 ^_-^_Finale^_^(Alleg.mp3;1L >                                     15746/15746    25-AUG-2002 20:41:04.80 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > ) > Total of 9 files, 186810/186810 blocks.  >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_P layers]  > D > Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players.DIR;1L >                                         1/1        24-AUG-2002 13:26:38.03 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_PD layers.Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players] > C > Vivaldi^_-^_Il^_Cimento^_dell^'armonia^_e^_dell^'inventione.DIR;1 L >                                         5/6        24-AUG-2002 13:26:38.09 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE) 2 > Vivaldi^_12^_Concertos^,^_Op^.^_8^,^_V^_II.DIR;1L >                                         2/6        24-AUG-2002 13:52:53.55 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >   > Total of 2 files, 7/12 blocks. >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[7150,1,0] >  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_01^_-^_Conc erto^_1^_-Spring-.mp3;1 L >                                     10181/10181    24-AUG-2002 13:25:29.94 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_02^_-^_Larg o.mp3;1 L >                                      6489/6489     24-AUG-2002 13:26:54.89 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_03^_-^_Alle	 gro.mp3;1 L >                                     10059/10059    24-AUG-2002 13:28:02.34 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_04^_-^_No^. ^_2^_-Summer-^_Alle.mp3;1 L >                                     13537/13537    24-AUG-2002 13:29:38.50 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_05^_-^_Adag io^_-^_Presto.mp3;1 L >                                      6485/6485     24-AUG-2002 13:31:22.81 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_06^_-^_Pres to.mp3;1L >                                      7565/7565     24-AUG-2002 13:32:21.81 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_07^_-^_No^. 3^_-Fall-^_Allegro.mp3;1L >                                     14946/14946    24-AUG-2002 13:33:41.94 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_08^_-^_Adag io^_molto.mp3;1 L >                                      7527/7527     24-AUG-2002 13:35:36.47 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_09^_-^_Alle	 gro.mp3;1 L >                                      9415/9415     24-AUG-2002 13:36:42.57 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_10^_-^_No^. ^_4^_-Winter-^_Alle.mp3;1 L >                                      9060/9060     24-AUG-2002 13:38:02.00 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_11^_-^_Larg o.mp3;1 L >                                      5087/5087     24-AUG-2002 13:39:14.78 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_12^_-^_Alle	 gro.mp3;1 L >                                      8246/8246     24-AUG-2002 13:40:02.94 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_13^_-^_No^. ^_5^_La^_tempesta^_d.mp3;1L >                                      7364/7364     24-AUG-2002 13:41:12.18 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_14^_-^_Larg o.mp3;1 L >                                      6559/6559     24-AUG-2002 13:42:13.49 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_15^_-^_Pres to.mp3;1L >                                     10200/10200    24-AUG-2002 13:43:15.97 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_16^_-^_No^. ^_6^_Il^_piacere^_in.mp3;1L >                                      8387/8387     24-AUG-2002 13:44:40.56 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_17^_-^_Larg o.mp3;1 L >                                      6337/6337     24-AUG-2002 13:45:49.65 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_18^_-^_Alle	 gro.mp3;1 L >                                      8100/8100     24-AUG-2002 13:46:47.88 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_19^_-^_No^. ^_7^,^_RV^_242^_in^_d^_.mp3;1 L >                                      8000/8000     24-AUG-2002 13:47:59.13 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_20^_-^_Larg o.mp3;1 L >                                      4874/4874     24-AUG-2002 13:49:05.69 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_21^_-^_Alle	 gro.mp3;1 L >                                      8726/8726     24-AUG-2002 13:49:56.51 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > * > Total of 21 files, 177144/177144 blocks. >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[7186,1,0] >  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_16^_-^_Conc. erto^_for^_vilin^,^_cello^,^_and^_string.mp3;1L >                                      9761/9761     24-AUG-2002 14:09:54.53 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_17^_-^_Anda	 nte.mp3;1 L >                                      6530/6530     24-AUG-2002 14:11:09.91 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_18^_-^_Alle	 gro.mp3;1 L >                                      8535/8535     24-AUG-2002 14:12:10.40 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_19^_-^_conc, erto^_for^_two^_viloins-^_Allegro^_Mol.mp3;1L >                                     10848/10848    24-AUG-2002 14:13:25.47 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_20^_-^_Anda nte^_^(molto^).mp3;1L >                                      4847/4847     24-AUG-2002 14:14:47.14 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > L Vivaldi^_-^_Huggett^_-^_Kraemer^_-^_Raglan^_Baroque^_Players^_-^_21^_-^_Alle	 gro.mp3;1 L >                                      8834/8834     24-AUG-2002 14:15:37.80 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > ' > Total of 6 files, 49355/49355 blocks.  >  > Directory G MUSICDISK1:[Classical.Vivaldi^_-^_Turovsky^_-^_I^_Musici^_De^_Montreal]  >  > L Concerto^_for^_2^_Violins^_and^_Cello^_in^_d^,^_RV565-^_Allegro^_-^_Adagio^_ e^_spiccato.DIR;1 L >                                         1/1        27-AUG-2002 11:24:19.19 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory  > L MUSICDISK1:[Classical.Vivaldi^_-^_Turovsky^_-^_I^_Musici^_De^_Montreal.ConceL rto^_for^_2^_Violins^_and^_Cello^_in^_d^,^_RV565-^_Allegro^_-^_Adagio^_e^_sp iccato]  > L > Vivaldi^_-^_Six^_Concerti.DIR;1         1/1        27-AUG-2002 11:24:19.26 > (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE)  >  > Total of 1 file, 1/1 block.  >  > Directory $1$DKA3:[7560,1,0] >  > L Concerto^_for^_2^_Violins^_and^_Cello^_in^_d^,^_RV565-^_Allegro^_-^_Adagio^_$ e^_spiccato^_-^_16^_-^_Allegro.mp3;1L >                                     12526/12526    27-AUG-2002 11:22:54.47 > (RWD,RWD,RWD,R)  > & > Total of 1 file, 12526/12526 blocks. > @ > Grand total of 36 directories, 84 files, 624015/624024 blocks. >  > And from the PC side:  > " >  Volume in drive F is MusicDisk1$ >  Volume Serial Number is 0000-000D >  >  Directory of F:\  > 3 > 08/02/2002  10:26p                   0 BACKUP.SYS 3 > 08/02/2002  10:26p                   0 BADBLK.SYS 3 > 08/02/2002  10:26p                   0 BADLOG.SYS 3 > 02/24/2003  09:50a          11,103,744 BITMAP.SYS 2 > 08/12/2002  11:36a      <DIR>          Classical3 > 08/02/2002  10:26p                   0 CONTIN.SYS 3 > 08/02/2002  10:26p                   0 CORIMG.SYS 3 > 03/06/2003  07:19a           6,704,128 INDEXF.SYS 5 > 08/02/2002  10:26p                 512 SECURITY.SYS 3 > 08/02/2002  10:26p                   0 VOLSET.SYS / >                9 File(s)     17,810,432 bytes  >  >  Directory of F:\Classical > * > 08/12/2002  11:36a      <DIR>          .+ > 03/05/2003  06:15p      <DIR>          .. H > 08/13/2002  10:00a      <DIR>          BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus3 > 09/01/2002  02:31p      <DIR>          Paul Lewis I > 08/24/2002  02:46p      <DIR>          Schubert - Goodman - The Hanover  BandJ > 08/25/2002  08:17p      <DIR>          Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in the  > FieldsF > 08/24/2002  01:26p      <DIR>          Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque	 > Players I > 08/27/2002  11:00a      <DIR>          Vivaldi - Turovsky - I Musici De  Montreal/ >                0 File(s)          7,680 bytes  > < >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus > * > 08/13/2002  10:00a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/12/2002  11:36a      <DIR>          .. L > 08/13/2002  10:03a      <DIR>          Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October  > Revolution-  Interlude -L > 08/13/2002  10:01a      <DIR>          Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October  > Revolution-  Introduction - L > 08/13/2002  10:04a      <DIR>          Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October $ > Revolution-  Marching in Close Ra-L > 08/13/2002  10:02a      <DIR>          Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October  > Revolution-  Philosophers - L > 08/13/2002  10:09a      <DIR>          Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October  > Revolution-  Revolution - L > 08/13/2002  10:17a      <DIR>          Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October  > Revolution-  Symphony - L > 08/13/2002  10:19a      <DIR>          Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October ! > Revolution-  The Constitution - L > 08/13/2002  10:14a      <DIR>          Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October  > Revolution-  The Pledge - L > 08/13/2002  10:11a      <DIR>          Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October  > Revolution-  Victory -/ >                0 File(s)          8,192 bytes  > L >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20th5 > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Interlude -  > * > 08/13/2002  10:03a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:00a      <DIR>          .. J > 08/13/2002  10:03a      <DIR>          BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  October
 Revolution/ >                0 File(s)          2,560 bytes  > L >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20thK > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Interlude -\BBC Music Vol. V, No.  2-  October  > Revolution > * > 08/13/2002  10:03a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:03a      <DIR>          .. L > 08/13/2002  10:03a           2,426,797 Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October - > Revolution-  Interlude - - 04 - Sergei .mp3 L > 08/13/2002  10:05a           2,204,860 Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October - > Revolution-  Interlude - - 06 - Sergei .mp3 / >                2 File(s)      4,632,681 bytes  > L >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20th8 > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Introduction - > * > 08/13/2002  10:01a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:00a      <DIR>          .. J > 08/13/2002  10:01a      <DIR>          BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  October
 Revolution/ >                0 File(s)          2,560 bytes  > L >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20thJ > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Introduction -\BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  October1 > Revolution > * > 08/13/2002  10:01a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:01a      <DIR>          ..eL > 08/13/2002  10:01a           4,305,735 Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October * > Revolution-  Introduction - - 02 - S.mp3/ >                1 File(s)      4,306,759 bytest >nL >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20th? > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Marching in Close Ra-z >r* > 08/13/2002  10:04a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:00a      <DIR>          ..TJ > 08/13/2002  10:04a      <DIR>          BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  October
 Revolution/ >                0 File(s)          2,560 bytesv >fL >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20thI > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Marching in Close Ra-\BBC Music  Vol. V, No. 2- > October Revolution >o* > 08/13/2002  10:04a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:04a      <DIR>          .. L > 08/13/2002  10:04a           3,456,866 Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October # > Revolution-  Marching in Clos.mp3 / >                1 File(s)      3,457,890 bytesn >aL >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20th8 > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Philosophers - >y* > 08/13/2002  10:02a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:00a      <DIR>          ..mJ > 08/13/2002  10:02a      <DIR>          BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  October
 Revolution/ >                0 File(s)          2,560 bytesN >oL >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20thJ > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Philosophers -\BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  October  > Revolution >D* > 08/13/2002  10:02a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:02a      <DIR>          ..sL > 08/13/2002  10:02a           3,569,709 Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October-* > Revolution-  Philosophers - - 03 - S.mp3/ >                1 File(s)      3,570,733 bytes0 >5L >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20th6 > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Revolution - >h* > 08/13/2002  10:09a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:00a      <DIR>          ..sJ > 08/13/2002  10:09a      <DIR>          BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  October
 Revolution/ >                0 File(s)          2,560 bytesh >.L >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20thL > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Revolution -\BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  Octobers > Revolution >o* > 08/13/2002  10:09a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:09a      <DIR>          .. L > 08/13/2002  10:09a          14,753,041 Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October , > Revolution-  Revolution - - 07 - Serge.mp3/ >                1 File(s)     14,754,065 bytesp >eL >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20th4 > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Symphony - >n* > 08/13/2002  10:17a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:00a      <DIR>          ..eJ > 08/13/2002  10:17a      <DIR>          BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  October
 Revolution/ >                0 File(s)          2,560 byteso >bL >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20thJ > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Symphony -\BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  October  > Revolution >d* > 08/13/2002  10:17a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:17a      <DIR>          .. L > 08/13/2002  10:17a           8,652,925 Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the Octoberv. > Revolution-  Symphony - - 10 - Sergei Pr.mp3/ >                1 File(s)      8,653,949 bytesf >iL >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20th< > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  The Constitution - >i* > 08/13/2002  10:19a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:00a      <DIR>          .. J > 08/13/2002  10:19a      <DIR>          BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  October
 Revolution/ >                0 File(s)          2,560 byteso >mL >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20thK > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  The Constitution -\BBC Music Vol.-	 V, No. 2-  > October Revolution >:* > 08/13/2002  10:19a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:19a      <DIR>          ..1L > 08/13/2002  10:19a           8,237,273 Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October9& > Revolution-  The Constitution - .mp3/ >                1 File(s)      8,238,297 bytes  >>L >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20th6 > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  The Pledge - > * > 08/13/2002  10:14a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:00a      <DIR>          ..oJ > 08/13/2002  10:14a      <DIR>          BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  October
 Revolution/ >                0 File(s)          2,560 bytess >dL >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20thL > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  The Pledge -\BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  Octoberp > Revolution >s* > 08/13/2002  10:14a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:14a      <DIR>          ..qL > 08/13/2002  10:14a          10,863,513 Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the Octoberd, > Revolution-  The Pledge - - 09 - Serge.mp3/ >                1 File(s)     10,864,537 bytes  >eL >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20th3 > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Victory -  >o* > 08/13/2002  10:11a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:00a      <DIR>          ..lJ > 08/13/2002  10:11a      <DIR>          BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2-  October
 Revolution/ >                0 File(s)          2,560 bytes2 > L >  Directory of F:\Classical\BBC Symphony Orchestra & Chorus\Cantata for the 20thL > Anniversary of the October Revolution-  Victory -\BBC Music Vol. V, No. 2- October5 > Revolution >c* > 08/13/2002  10:11a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/13/2002  10:11a      <DIR>          .. L > 08/13/2002  10:11a           8,698,690 Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the Octobers/ > Revolution-  Victory - - 08 - Sergei Prok.mp3s/ >                1 File(s)      8,699,714 bytesi >o' >  Directory of F:\Classical\Paul Lewiso > * > 09/01/2002  02:31p      <DIR>          .+ > 08/12/2002  11:36a      <DIR>          ..tJ > 09/01/2002  02:31p      <DIR>          Beethoven Piano Sonata in E flat, Op 81a (Les   > Adiuex) - Das Lebewohl (Adagio/ >                0 File(s)          3,072 bytesc > L >  Directory of F:\Classical\Paul Lewis\Beethoven Piano Sonata in E flat, Op 81a (Les  > Adiuex) - Das Lebewohl (Adagio > * > 09/01/2002  02:31p      <DIR>          .+ > 09/01/2002  02:31p      <DIR>          ..tL > 09/01/2002  02:31p      <DIR>          Beethoven Piano Sonata 'Les Adieux' and music by > Mendelssohn, Liszt & Schuberts/ >                0 File(s)          1,536 bytes. > L >  Directory of F:\Classical\Paul Lewis\Beethoven Piano Sonata in E flat, Op 81a (LesH > Adiuex) - Das Lebewohl (Adagio\Beethoven Piano Sonata 'Les Adieux' and music by > Mendelssohn, Liszt & Schubert^ >m* > 09/01/2002  02:31p      <DIR>          .+ > 09/01/2002  02:31p      <DIR>          ..1J > 09/01/2002  03:31p          10,632,201 Beethoven Piano Sonata in E flat, Op 81a (Les  > Adiuex) - Das Lebewohl (.mp3/ >                1 File(s)     10,633,225 bytesn >^B >  Directory of F:\Classical\Schubert - Goodman - The Hanover Band >/* > 08/24/2002  02:46p      <DIR>          .+ > 08/12/2002  11:36a      <DIR>          ..AI > 08/24/2002  02:46p      <DIR>          Schubert - Goodman - The Hanover  Band/ >                0 File(s)          3,072 bytesR >,= >  Directory of F:\Classical\Schubert - Goodman - The Hanovera Band\Schubert - Goodman - The  > Hanover Band > * > 08/24/2002  02:46p      <DIR>          .+ > 08/24/2002  02:46p      <DIR>          ..oF > 08/24/2002  02:46p      <DIR>          Schubert Symphonies 4, 6, & 9/ >                0 File(s)          1,536 bytesR >,= >  Directory of F:\Classical\Schubert - Goodman - The Hanovere Band\Schubert - Goodman - The^, > Hanover Band\Schubert Symphonies 4, 6, & 9 >t* > 08/24/2002  02:46p      <DIR>          .+ > 08/24/2002  02:46p      <DIR>          .. I > 08/24/2002  04:44p          23,641,162 Schubert - Goodman - The Hanover  Band - 01 - Sym.F > No. 9 in C major, D. 944, -Great-- Andante-Allegro ma no troppo- Piu moto.mp3/ >                1 File(s)     23,642,186 bytes  > L >  Directory of F:\Classical\Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in
 the Fields >^* > 08/25/2002  08:17p      <DIR>          .+ > 08/12/2002  11:36a      <DIR>          .. J > 08/25/2002  08:17p      <DIR>          Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in theE > Fields/ >                0 File(s)          3,072 bytesb >_L >  Directory of F:\Classical\Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in the Fields\Sir8 > Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in the Fields >f* > 08/25/2002  08:17p      <DIR>          .+ > 08/25/2002  08:17p      <DIR>          .. F > 08/25/2002  08:17p      <DIR>          Mozart- Symphonies 34-41 (Vol	 2,Disc 5)D/ >                0 File(s)          2,048 bytesa >_L >  Directory of F:\Classical\Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in the Fields\SirK > Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in the Fields\Mozart- Symphoniesr
 34-41 (Vol > 2,Disc 5)_ >_* > 08/25/2002  08:17p      <DIR>          .+ > 08/25/2002  08:17p      <DIR>          .. J > 08/25/2002  09:17p           9,192,719 Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in the2! > Fields - 01 - Minuet for a .mp3_J > 08/25/2002  09:18p           2,616,785 Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in the-! > Fields - 02 - Sym. No. 37 i.mp3RJ > 08/25/2002  09:24p          20,497,058 Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in the_! > Fields - 03 - Sym. No. 38 i.mp3 J > 08/25/2002  09:28p          13,104,789 Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in thel > Fields - 04 - Andante.mp3tJ > 08/25/2002  09:30p           8,784,562 Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in the_! > Fields - 05 - Finale (Prest.mp3lJ > 08/25/2002  09:35p          15,793,140 Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in the ! > Fields - 06 - Sym. No. 39 i.mp3 J > 08/25/2002  09:38p          11,808,915 Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in theo! > Fields - 07 - Andante con m.mp3,J > 08/25/2002  09:40p           5,784,666 Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in thee! > Fields - 08 - Menuetto (All.mp3 J > 08/25/2002  09:42p           8,061,702 Sir Neville Marriner - Academy of St. Martin in the ! > Fields - 09 - Finale (Alleg.mp3a/ >                9 File(s)     95,645,872 bytes_ >-I >  Directory of F:\Classical\Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque  Players- >2* > 08/24/2002  01:26p      <DIR>          .+ > 08/12/2002  11:36a      <DIR>          ..tF > 08/24/2002  01:26p      <DIR>          Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque	 > Playersi/ >                0 File(s)          3,072 bytesc >nI >  Directory of F:\Classical\Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque  Players\Vivaldi - , > Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque Players >1* > 08/24/2002  01:26p      <DIR>          .+ > 08/24/2002  01:26p      <DIR>          ..AL > 08/24/2002  01:26p      <DIR>          Vivaldi - Il Cimento dell'armonia e dell'inventionetJ > 08/24/2002  01:52p      <DIR>          Vivaldi 12 Concertos, Op. 8, V II/ >                0 File(s)          4,608 bytesR >RI >  Directory of F:\Classical\Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan BaroqueS Players\Vivaldi -SA > Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque Players\Vivaldi - Il Cimentor dell'armonia e > dell'inventione_ >c* > 08/24/2002  01:26p      <DIR>          .+ > 08/24/2002  01:26p      <DIR>          ..IF > 08/24/2002  02:26p           5,212,283 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque( > Players - 01 - Concerto 1 -Spring-.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:27p           3,322,041 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 02 - Largo.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:29p           5,150,197 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 03 - Allegro.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:31p           6,930,728 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque( > Players - 04 - No. 2 -Summer- Alle.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:32p           3,320,170 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque$ > Players - 05 - Adagio - Presto.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:33p           3,873,121 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 06 - Presto.mp3:F > 08/24/2002  02:35p           7,652,321 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque( > Players - 07 - No.3 -Fall- Allegro.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:36p           3,853,692 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque! > Players - 08 - Adagio molto.mp3 F > 08/24/2002  02:37p           4,820,427 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 09 - Allegro.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:39p           4,638,641 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque( > Players - 10 - No. 4 -Winter- Alle.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:39p           2,604,197 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 11 - Largo.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:40p           4,221,701 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 12 - Allegro.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:42p           3,770,331 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque( > Players - 13 - No. 5 La tempesta d.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:42p           3,357,778 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 14 - Largo.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:44p           5,222,295 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 15 - Presto.mp3OF > 08/24/2002  02:45p           4,293,828 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque( > Players - 16 - No. 6 Il piacere in.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:46p           3,244,302 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 17 - Largo.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:47p           4,147,096 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 18 - Allegro.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:48p           4,095,713 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque( > Players - 19 - No. 7, RV 242 in d .mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:49p           2,495,110 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 20 - Largo.mp3F > 08/24/2002  02:50p           4,467,461 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 21 - Allegro.mp3/ >               21 File(s)     90,696,505 bytesn >tI >  Directory of F:\Classical\Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan BaroqueI Players\Vivaldi - K > Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque Players\Vivaldi 12 Concertos, Op. 8, VR II > * > 08/24/2002  01:52p      <DIR>          .+ > 08/24/2002  01:26p      <DIR>          ..^F > 08/24/2002  03:10p           4,997,246 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque: > Players - 16 - Concerto for vilin, cello, and string.mp3F > 08/24/2002  03:11p           3,343,342 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 17 - Andante.mp3F > 08/24/2002  03:13p           4,369,641 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 18 - Allegro.mp3F > 08/24/2002  03:14p           5,553,960 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque: > Players - 19 - concerto for two viloins- Allegro Mol.mp3F > 08/24/2002  03:15p           2,481,309 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque$ > Players - 20 - Andante (molto).mp3F > 08/24/2002  03:16p           4,522,614 Vivaldi - Huggett - Kraemer - Raglan Baroque > Players - 21 - Allegro.mp3/ >                6 File(s)     25,269,648 bytes  >-F >  Directory of F:\Classical\Vivaldi - Turovsky - I Musici De Montreal >8* > 08/27/2002  11:00a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/12/2002  11:36a      <DIR>          ..sL > 08/27/2002  11:24a      <DIR>          Concerto for 2 Violins and Cello in	 d, RV565-  > Allegro - Adagio e spiccato./ >                0 File(s)          3,072 bytes  > = >  Directory of F:\Classical\Vivaldi - Turovsky - I Musici DeR Montreal\Concerto for 2 < > Violins and Cello in d, RV565- Allegro - Adagio e spiccato > * > 08/27/2002  11:24a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/27/2002  11:00a      <DIR>          .._? > 08/27/2002  11:24a      <DIR>          Vivaldi - Six Concerti / >                0 File(s)          1,536 bytesR >R= >  Directory of F:\Classical\Vivaldi - Turovsky - I Musici Dei Montreal\Concerto for 2iJ > Violins and Cello in d, RV565- Allegro - Adagio e spiccato\Vivaldi - Six Concerti >^* > 08/27/2002  11:24a      <DIR>          .+ > 08/27/2002  11:24a      <DIR>          .. L > 08/27/2002  12:24p           6,412,844 Concerto for 2 Violins and Cello in	 d, RV565- 0 > Allegro - Adagio e spiccato - 16 - Allegro.mp3/ >                1 File(s)      6,413,868 bytes^ >a >      Total Files Listed:/ >               58 File(s)    337,355,897 bytesa4 >              108 Dir(s)  45,094,045,184 bytes free >z > Any ideas? >I > Clay   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 05:46:49 GMT0+ From: Jeff Cameron <JCam90502@jcameron.com>l- Subject: Another OpenVMS on Itanium Questions,2 Message-ID: <BA9166C7.5C4A%JCam90502@jcameron.com>  F I have heard that the Itanium will support either Little Endian or Big Endian memory addressing./   1. Is this true? 2. If so, how is this done?R+ 3. How is it changed from one or the other?.B 4. Are the addressing bounderies on 64 bit quad-words, or smaller?C 5. In OpenVMS, how big will a page of memory be, same as the Alpha?.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 01:45:31 GMT1# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback linkJ Message-ID: <%6Saa.213608$Zr%.210856@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3E6A219F.2900D92A@fsi.net..._ > John Smith wrote: 
 > > [snip]A > > Find out if she knows how to get connected to comp.os.vms andR invite > > her over for a chat. >bA > I'm fairly certain "drawing a line in the sand" is not going to^: > effective, John. Unless you can find their greed button, intimidation isD4 > typically ineffective without sufficient leverage. >uE > I prefer winning without intimidation, myself. Greed is just a fact- of; > life in a human world. I have no problem exploiting that.4    F No attempt at intimidation was suggested.  I just happen to think that? it would be good for her to visit here and get some unvarnished  discussion going.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 20:26:05 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>2" Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link' Message-ID: <3E6BF7BD.A3F308D0@fsi.net>    John Smith wrote:D > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3E6A219F.2900D92A@fsi.net...r > > John Smith wrote:t > > > [snip]C > > > Find out if she knows how to get connected to comp.os.vms and^ > invite > > > her over for a chat. > > C > > I'm fairly certain "drawing a line in the sand" is not going to < > > effective, John. Unless you can find their greed button, > intimidation is^6 > > typically ineffective without sufficient leverage. > >eG > > I prefer winning without intimidation, myself. Greed is just a fact  > of= > > life in a human world. I have no problem exploiting that.  > H > No attempt at intimidation was suggested.  I just happen to think thatA > it would be good for her to visit here and get some unvarnished  > discussion going.U  F True, but it's definitely a challenge, as if to say, "come down out ofB your ivory tower to here where the grunts work, and perhaps gain aG perspective on the consequences of your actions that perhaps you've not0	 yet had"..  D Not exactly a "chip on the shoulder", but if she actually did it, it: might harm her reputation as a captain of business. Likely4 unprecedented. Likely risky beyond her comfort zone.  H She could just as easily hole up in her own digs and review some historyG of this group, perhaps using some stratgic searches including the words ) "VMS" and "advertising", marketing", etc.7  G Dunno... It would take a degree courage displayed by neither HP, CompaqnG nor DEC, to date. I'd be impressed, but what I think counts for spit....   -- . David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 22:56:29 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>" Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link/ Message-ID: <3E6BFEDB.770D1F13@vl.videotron.ca>y   re: Carly coming to comp.os.vms^  N Sue reports to Gorham who reports to Marcello. Has anyone ever spoken directly- to Carly ? Would they be fired for doing so ?R  L You must add in the useless overhead layer called Stallard who think all VMSN customers will eventually migrate to HP-UX.  This makes it even harder for any* pro-VMS Digital employees to reach Carly.   N It is very possible that Carly only gets messages filtered by Stallard. But we don't know that.  K If some of the Digits were to give us an indication of whethert the pro-VMS^G digits have direct access to Carly, or whether Stallard is a brick wall M through which no pro-VMS message can get through, then we would have a betterE idea of the problem.  N If we know Stallard provides a wall neither marcello nor Gorham can go throughJ without losing their jobs, then perhaps our direct complaints to Carly mayH alert her to the fact that one of her lapdogs iosn't giving her the fullJ story. But if Gorham and MArcello do have some subtle plan to get Carly toT realise the potential for VMS, then our interference may have some negative impacts.  K Marcello knows that there are some VMS supporters at the customer level who2L are fully willing and capable of doing stuff, either covert or overt.  It isG up to him and Gorham to make use of that capability if he/they want to.-   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Mar 2003 06:41:06 GMT From: rmk@rmkhome.com " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link3 Message-ID: <3e6c3382$0$198$75868355@news.frii.net>   1 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:^  N > You must add in the useless overhead layer called Stallard who think all VMSP > customers will eventually migrate to HP-UX.  This makes it even harder for any, > pro-VMS Digital employees to reach Carly.   M Then they should be readine the Tru64 mailing list. Read that list for awhile2G and it looks like some of those guys are migrating to AIX, Solaris, and_ Linux.  N HP-UX plus PA-RISC is reliable, and a mainstay of sorts in the MIS and banking areas. And that's it./ --  , rmk@rmkhome.com		http://www.rmkhome.com/~rmk   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 20:32:35 -0500( From: "hein" <hein_news@eps.zko.dec.com>, Subject: Re: How to find nonsequential files, Message-ID: <3e6bece5$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  7 "Osmo Kujala" <kujala@tukki.cc.jyu.fi> wrote in messages& news:b4a96h$3ja$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi...9 > Hi, does someone know easy way to find out if there are2A > nonsequential (indexed, relative etc.) files in directory tree?a  D Never forget to check out DFU as a tool to locate files with certain attirubutes in a hurry. K It can select for organization, it will be fast (reading INDEXF,SYS) but it^
 may not solve_L this problem if specific directory tree access is needed (Allthough SORT may help there).  I DFU is available on the VMS Freeware (and will be integrated with the VMS 
 distribution)_   hth, Hein.e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 15:21:25 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>22 Subject: RE: hp DECforms V3.3 Product AnnouncementT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660E13@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Jack,p  2 Re: web enabling existing host based applications.   A few alternatives to consider:D   Ericom: ( http://ebusiness.ericom.com/iOpenVms.asp( http://ebusiness.ericom.com/indexWap.asp   Dataglider: * http://www.dataglider.com/news/press4.html0 http://www.dataglider.com/solutions/openvms.html   Regards,    
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanta Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Services  Voice: 613-592-4660/ Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)n OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM.     -----Original Message-----7 From: Jack Patteeuw [mailto:jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com]=20- Sent: March 8, 2003 5:43 PMR To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comg2 Subject: Re: hp DECforms V3.3 Product Announcement     JF Mezei wrote: I > I start off with an experience of just about every Digital product I=20 G > have ever purchased being end-of-lifed, so I am quite weary of any=20u > that do remain.- >=20J > Is there a consensus on whether DECforms is still truly strategic, or=20H > are they keeping it just barely alive for the existing customer base ?   > (a bit like FMS) ? >=20D > I am not talking about end of support. Just future development,=20 > marketing etc.    ? Boy, do I hear you !  Our portfolio of products is certainly=20g
 shrinking.  = We are about to "make the jump to light speed" and need to=20 > re-write several internal apps.  The end users would love a=20> web interface, but quite frankly most of the programmers on=20? staff (including me) are old 3GLers and the thought of Java,=20  etc, etc scares me to death.  ? We have been trying to use X/Motif interfaces because 99% of=20a< the end users have Hummingbird Exceed X Display Server (a=20= great product), but the "look and feel" is a bit different=20  then a typical windows app.   ? So my question is, have any one ever built anything with the=20g= DECforms Web Connector.  It is still stuck a V3.0 which is=20.? now over 30 months old.  Sounds like another dead product to=20U me !   --=20.  
 Jack PatteeuwD   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:07:16 GMT^- From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> 2 Subject: Re: hp DECforms V3.3 Product Announcement< Message-ID: <UGQaa.8231$s75.4665434@twister.columbus.rr.com>  : I guess if an HP employee is recommending other solutions ' than Web Connector must truly be dead !u     Main, Kerry wrote: > Jack,_ > 4 > Re: web enabling existing host based applications. > ! > A few alternatives to consider:- > 	 > Ericom:5* > http://ebusiness.ericom.com/iOpenVms.asp* > http://ebusiness.ericom.com/indexWap.asp > 
 > Dataglider: , > http://www.dataglider.com/news/press4.html2 > http://www.dataglider.com/solutions/openvms.html > 
 > Regards, >  >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant_ > Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.# > Consulting & Integration Services  > Voice: 613-592-46605 > Fax   : 613-591-4477 > Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom/ >     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)^! > OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM^   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 21:49:28 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> 2 Subject: RE: hp DECforms V3.3 Product AnnouncementT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660E15@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Jack,   F >>> I guess if an HP employee is recommending other solutions than Web! Connector must truly be dead !<<<-  E Nope - I don't know what the status is, but as I recall, it is on the  latest roadmaps.  G The only reason I am recommending these products is that most CustomersfF like to have alternatives. The TP Web connector may or may not be yourE specific best choice, but you should at least be able to compare youro options.  H If I know a third party product will do a job better than a HP one, thenH I will tell a Customer so. If I don't know whether a third party productF will do a job better than a HP one, then I will tell a Customer so.=20  E I get zippo for product sales, but no future Customers if I knowinglyeB try to steer them down a path which they feel is not in their best	 interest.^   Regards_  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanti Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration ServicesR Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)l OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM_     -----Original Message-----7 From: Jack Patteeuw [mailto:jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com]=20  Sent: March 9, 2003 7:07 PM- To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComD2 Subject: Re: hp DECforms V3.3 Product Announcement    < I guess if an HP employee is recommending other solutions=20' than Web Connector must truly be dead !      Main, Kerry wrote: > Jack,  >=204 > Re: web enabling existing host based applications. >=20! > A few alternatives to consider:  >=20	 > Ericom: * > http://ebusiness.ericom.com/iOpenVms.asp* > http://ebusiness.ericom.com/indexWap.asp >=20
 > Dataglider: , > http://www.dataglider.com/news/press4.html2 > http://www.dataglider.com/solutions/openvms.html >=20
 > Regards, >=20 >=20 > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant8 > Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.# > Consulting & Integration Servicesa > Voice: 613-592-4660D > Fax   : 613-591-4477 > Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom/ >     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)0! > OpenVMS DCL - the original .COMl   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 14:37:43 -05003 From: "Homer J. Simpson" <hsimpson@burnsenergy.com>1" Subject: Re: HSZ monitor from VMS?; Message-ID: <9DMaa.17820$2J1.11513@fe06.atl2.webusenet.com>r  K Sorry, I may be confusing it with DECevent (or DECadent as my spell-checker 
 calls it).  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0303091031.12d7936a@posting.google.com... @ > "Homer J. Simpson" <hsimpson@burnsenergy.com> wrote in message3 news:<kRaaa.701$vb6.137@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com>... ( > > FYI - IIRC, HSZterm needs a license. > 4 > I don't remember HSZterm ever requiring a license.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 20:29:49 -0500( From: "hein" <hein_news@eps.zko.dec.com>E Subject: Re: Maximum Record Size Error (BUCKET - CLUSTER SIZE detour)D* Message-ID: <3e6bec3f@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  F "Daryl Jones" <jones.computer.srv@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message >  := > The maximun record size in a RMS file is as follows (1991):a  H Thanks for breaking through the heart of this relatively simple question with the appropriate table.R   > One thing to remember isH > that the bucket size must be an intergral number of disk cluster size.  J Ouch, that's all wrong such as Bill Todd and others nicely explained. More below.  6 > This will reduce wasted space inside the RMS bucket.  L Not true, as others mentioned, and the correction was still not quite right.I A part question from this thread was recently posted to the 'VMS Wizard'.2K You'll find a sneak preview for the answer there below (official answer may0
 well change!)   K > One more item, the bucket size can't be less than the longest record sizeC in the file.  3 Right: max MRS < BKS * 512 - bucket-overhead(=15) -t single_record_overhead(=11).  < On the bucket-size versus cluster-size verus waste argument:  F     While disk file allocation clusters themself are invisible to RMS,J     their effect on file extents is visible. RMS performs EXPLICIT extents>     for indexed files and keeps track of the allocated blocks.I     RMS will NOT start a new bucket unless it fits in the current extent. E     RMS will avoid a near certain split IO by allocating a new extentDD     and starting the new bucket in there if it did not entirely fit.  I     So while normally buckets are tightly packed, for every time the file K     extented there may be unused space up the bucket size minus one blocks.aD     More than one cluster may go unused if a bucket is larger than a cluster.  J     The 'waste' of a few block is believed to be a good trade off to avoidA     near certain split IOs if buckets were to cross file extents./  2     Yes, there have been cases of excessive waste.K     For example, the RIGHTLIST.DAT on some systems will waste about a block K     every two blocks. This wizard sees no problem with that because any VMS B     person who cares anything about performance will never see theH     'negative' side effect of this feature as they will PRE-ALLOCATE all     important files.  I     Selecting a bucket size to have 'nice' common factors with the target J     disk cluster size will reduce the chance of waste and will reduced the=     chance of split-io for buckets due to fragmented extents.RD     HOWEVER... this choice is really only a last order tweak with anE     minimal effect. It is MUCH more important and effective to chooseBB     decent extents and to base bucket size on INDEX TREE DEPTH andK     DATA CONTENTION criteria. Only when those suggest a range of acceptable1G     bucket sizes would this wizard allow the clustersize to influence a0     choice within that range..  J     The biggest (performance) problem with RMS INDEXED files, in the spaceI     of alocations and IOs, is not fragments or split-ios, but is extents. G     Please be sure to pre-allocate your files  contiguous(-best-try) toSG     handle initial and near future (a year's worth?) load and give yourtE     indexed files a reasonably large extent (65K?) to cover unforseen  growth.   F     Note 1, The wizard commends your interest in the internals for RMSF     indexed files recommends you simply verify those using convert andH     analyze/rms procedures such as found below. Dump/reco may also proveC     useful as it displays the record RFAs (bucket VBN + record ID).sL     DECram disks are very nice to experiment with cluster sizes and volumes.  J     Note 2, The first data VBN for and indexed file is NOT 1, as that willL     be used for the file 'prologue', key descriptor(s) and area descriptors.  	     Test:f  K $! Record size =~ approx 4 blocks, choosen to test disk with cluster size =  9 4 $convert/fdl=sys$input/pad/nofast sys$input: tmp.idx $decky file; org indexed; record; size 2000; form fixed;, key 0; seg0_l 4; data_record_compression no; $eod 0001 0002 0003 0004 0005 $define/user sys$output tmp.tmp  $anal/rms/int tmp.idx  down down down key	 down data  rest! $search tmp.tmp "BUCKET HEADER ("C  I     %ANLRMS-I-RESTDONE, All structures at this level have been displayed. @     BUCKET HEADER (VBN 3)       skipping prologue + 1 area blockI     BUCKET HEADER (VBN 14)      vbn 7,8,9 unused. vbn 10,11,12,13 = indexo (root)I     BUCKET HEADER (VBN 19)      vbn 18 unused, default extent = 2 buckets0A     BUCKET HEADER (VBN 23)      23,24,25,26 tighly packed next to  19,20,21,22 0     BUCKET HEADER (VBN 28)      vbn 27 not used.     hth,
      Hein.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 20:05:50 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>yJ Subject: Re: Moving from Multinet to TCP/IP Services (LAT/NTY/TNA devices)' Message-ID: <3E6BF2FE.35DBFF08@fsi.net>o   Paul Sture wrote:/ > ] > In article <3E6A91A6.2E642234@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:0
 > > [snip] > > Weak argument. > H > I don't necessarily agree. Someone else pointed out the extra commands? > provided in TCPIP$DEFINE_COMMANDS.COM. 41 matches of ":==" in @ > the V5.3 file. I've just installed the SSH EAK and it's now 51 > occurences of ":==". > ( > Yeah - unix syntax commands, I know...  E Which is why I suggested to search the DCL tables. There are numerous B variations of the UCX or TCPIP verbs that can be made into foreign commands with symbols.   Likewise, Mulinet:   $ PING :== MULTINET PING/NUM=3  + ...is one of my more frequently used items.5   > >yJ > > Both verified accurate. Key phrase: "Base product". Note, however that@ > > this may have changed since the memo was originally written. > >  > F > That's something I haven't come across. Looking at a license listingG > from a properly (rather than Hobbyist) licensed system, I see license < > "UCX", last updated in April 1999. Nothing additional - do, > licenses such as "UCX-BASE" exist as well? > A > Under what circumstances is this "Base product" license issued?s  H The base license is UCX. The functionality was not available at the time the memo was written.    > >0J > > Now, but not when the memo was originally written, Multinet has had itK > > since at least 1999 which is when I first used it to explore situations * > > involving JetDirect cards and servers. > >- > 8 > So please update the memo before posting it in public.  G As noted earlier, the memo was written to vendor last summer. No updatea
 necessary.   > [snip]L > Well apart from a heavy requirement for retesting, we do have user-defined > services.   0 Both should be no-brainers, just time consuming.   -- 8 David J. Dachtera  dba DJE SystemsB http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2003 12:19:08 -0800r  From: riper56@hotmail.com (arik)7 Subject: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnet,= Message-ID: <185469fe.0303091219.30123db1@posting.google.com>D  F well, this is what i need to do, but I dont know exactly how to do it.= I from my searching I saw somethings that are not clear to mef& what is PathWork, how does it help me? can I do it without PathWork?   ) I have no other option but to use decnet.c   thank you for your help.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2003 15:09:23 -0600O- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)0; Subject: Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnetD3 Message-ID: <Hoymcd9EcKFM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <185469fe.0303091219.30123db1@posting.google.com>, riper56@hotmail.com (arik) writes:  ? > I from my searching I saw somethings that are not clear to meC( > what is PathWork, how does it help me?  F Pathworks implements (among other things) DECnet on Microsoft Windows.   > can I do it without PathWork?a  2 You could write your own implementation of DECnet.  + > I have no other option but to use decnet.0  F Unless another poster comes up with an alternate DECnet implementation5 (or you write your own), then you must use Pathworks.(   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:09:20 GMTr% From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net> ; Subject: Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnet8+ Message-ID: <3E6BAD6C.F9450C79@pacbell.net>1   arik wrote:  > H > well, this is what i need to do, but I dont know exactly how to do it.? > I from my searching I saw somethings that are not clear to me ( > what is PathWork, how does it help me? > can I do it without PathWork?  > + > I have no other option but to use decnet.e >  > thank you for your help.  C PathWorks is a Compaq/HP product that can be used for sharing files1G transparently accross O/S's. It must be installed on both systems and I  think it's still costs $$. 8C I'm curious though, why don't you have other options? (I'm thinkingi( NFS). What are you trying to accomplish?   --     Have VMS, Will Travel9 Wire paladin, San Franciscoy   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 22:42:16 GMT 6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER); Subject: Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnetu5 Message-ID: <crPaa.138515$AV5.1536554@news.chello.at>   ` In article <185469fe.0303091219.30123db1@posting.google.com>, riper56@hotmail.com (arik) writes:G >well, this is what i need to do, but I dont know exactly how to do it.    See at the end..  > >I from my searching I saw somethings that are not clear to me' >what is PathWork, how does it help me?n  D PATHWORKS is two different things. One is a client, one is a server.J Historical the products was named DECnet-DOS, then PCSA (Personal ComputerG Systems Architecture), then PATHWORKS. Then PATHWORKS-32 for the clientaH and PATHWORKS (Advanced Server) and finally now only Advanced Server for the server product.h  G http://ftp1.service.digital.com/public/publications/pcguide/pcguide.txtp( http://www.openvms.compaq.com/pathworks/- http://www.openvms.compaq.com/advancedserver/ * http://www.openvms.compaq.com/pathworks32/  G Advanced Server is a LanMan (V3.x = NT3.51, NT4, Win2000, WinXP) ServercF supporting TCP/IP, DECnet und NetBEUI protocols. With it, OpenVMS (andG other opsys where this software exists, like Tru64 UNIX) could interact E in a Lan Manager Domain just like a NT/W2K/XP server (with some minorh restrictions).  L PATHWORKS-32 is a DECnet (and LAT) stack for Win32 (Win9x, WinNT, Win2K, XP)K combined/bundled with (former standalone products) eXcursion (an X11 serveroK for Win32 - used to be Win16 at earlier times) and (possible but not reallypN identical available) terminal emulator product PowerTerm525 (from ERICOM.COM).  G The bundle did happen because DEC thought (and I think they were right)DG that without the other products nobody would buy the client product any I longer (it used to be also a TCP/IP stack for Windows - before M$ started/D to include one in Windows - months before Win95 came out - and WfW).G Nevertheless, the bundle is cheaper (I hope it is still true, I haven't E checked the last months) than competing standalone products, so checkdI always PW32 first if it fits your needs before buying competing products.,   >can I do it without PathWork?  I I don't really know if there is another DECnet stack for Win32. But since^E the DECnet protocol is free and the specification is available online I (all in contrast to LAT, which is still proprieatary) is is possible thatrF there are more DECnet stacks for Win32 than the PATHWORKS-32. The fact1 that I don't know one doesn't mean there is none.C  C However I do remember having heard of a free DECnet stack for U**X.r  * >I have no other option but to use decnet.   Sad to hear/read this.F A TCPIP stack on the VMS box (I'm sure, there is a suitable one) wouldF make things much easier. No additional software on the client side, noB problems with your network administrators, possible SAMBA freewareE instead of Advanced Server commercial ware on the server and so on...S   Now back to the first question:i  E Buy and install PATHWORKS-32 (at least V7.3) on your Win32 system and4E mostly you're done. You are now able to transfer files (and do remote I task to task communication) via DECnet. The utility for the file transfer D is NFT.EXE You are even able to access your client from the VMS side (with FAL.EXE and SPAWNER.EXE).   J If you want to access your VMS host transparently just like another LANMANL server (NT,W2K,XP). then you also need to buy the AdvancedServer for OpenVMSK (the server product itself is free - contained in the VMS license - but yousJ need client access licenses - PWLMXXXCA07.03 - for the PCs) and run LanMan% Protocol over DECnet on the VMS side.i  K But then again, if you are able to buy and install software on the VMS sideSL you might also be able to buy and install TCPIP software (TCPware, Multinet,= ...) for and on VMS and DECnet is no longer a requirement ;-)e   HIHe   -- d Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist8 E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 19:08:25 -05003 From: "Homer J. Simpson" <hsimpson@burnsenergy.com>l; Subject: Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnet8; Message-ID: <7AQaa.29238$5P1.12943@fe07.atl2.webusenet.com>   H I am not a Pathworks GURU.  Does this package look like it includes both server and client pieces?yL http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11225&item=3405289342    C "Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER" <peter@langstoeger.at> wrote in messageR/ news:crPaa.138515$AV5.1536554@news.chello.at... ? > In article <185469fe.0303091219.30123db1@posting.google.com>, " riper56@hotmail.com (arik) writes:I > >well, this is what i need to do, but I dont know exactly how to do it.- >g > See at the end.r >i@ > >I from my searching I saw somethings that are not clear to me) > >what is PathWork, how does it help me?2 >0F > PATHWORKS is two different things. One is a client, one is a server.L > Historical the products was named DECnet-DOS, then PCSA (Personal ComputerI > Systems Architecture), then PATHWORKS. Then PATHWORKS-32 for the client0J > and PATHWORKS (Advanced Server) and finally now only Advanced Server for > the server product.a >aI > http://ftp1.service.digital.com/public/publications/pcguide/pcguide.txtv* > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/pathworks// > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/advancedserver/ , > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/pathworks32/ > I > Advanced Server is a LanMan (V3.x = NT3.51, NT4, Win2000, WinXP) Server-H > supporting TCP/IP, DECnet und NetBEUI protocols. With it, OpenVMS (andI > other opsys where this software exists, like Tru64 UNIX) could interact G > in a Lan Manager Domain just like a NT/W2K/XP server (with some minori > restrictions). >-J > PATHWORKS-32 is a DECnet (and LAT) stack for Win32 (Win9x, WinNT, Win2K, XP)9F > combined/bundled with (former standalone products) eXcursion (an X11 serverF > for Win32 - used to be Win16 at earlier times) and (possible but not reallyC > identical available) terminal emulator product PowerTerm525 (from/ ERICOM.COM). > I > The bundle did happen because DEC thought (and I think they were right)6I > that without the other products nobody would buy the client product any-K > longer (it used to be also a TCP/IP stack for Windows - before M$ started/F > to include one in Windows - months before Win95 came out - and WfW).I > Nevertheless, the bundle is cheaper (I hope it is still true, I haven't4G > checked the last months) than competing standalone products, so checkAK > always PW32 first if it fits your needs before buying competing products.m >-  > >can I do it without PathWork? >.K > I don't really know if there is another DECnet stack for Win32. But sinceeG > the DECnet protocol is free and the specification is available online K > (all in contrast to LAT, which is still proprieatary) is is possible thatlH > there are more DECnet stacks for Win32 than the PATHWORKS-32. The fact3 > that I don't know one doesn't mean there is none.3 >NE > However I do remember having heard of a free DECnet stack for U**X.i >H, > >I have no other option but to use decnet. >4 > Sad to hear/read this.H > A TCPIP stack on the VMS box (I'm sure, there is a suitable one) wouldH > make things much easier. No additional software on the client side, noD > problems with your network administrators, possible SAMBA freewareG > instead of Advanced Server commercial ware on the server and so on...e >-! > Now back to the first question:r > G > Buy and install PATHWORKS-32 (at least V7.3) on your Win32 system andtG > mostly you're done. You are now able to transfer files (and do remote K > task to task communication) via DECnet. The utility for the file transferlF > is NFT.EXE You are even able to access your client from the VMS side! > (with FAL.EXE and SPAWNER.EXE).- >aL > If you want to access your VMS host transparently just like another LANMANF > server (NT,W2K,XP). then you also need to buy the AdvancedServer for OpenVMS I > (the server product itself is free - contained in the VMS license - buta youlL > need client access licenses - PWLMXXXCA07.03 - for the PCs) and run LanMan' > Protocol over DECnet on the VMS side.i > H > But then again, if you are able to buy and install software on the VMS sideD > you might also be able to buy and install TCPIP software (TCPware,	 Multinet,V? > ...) for and on VMS and DECnet is no longer a requirement ;-)n >t > HIHi >, > -- > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER2' > Network and OpenVMS system specialistg > E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atH > A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:15:55 -05005 From: "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccuskerNosp@Mcompaq.com>g; Subject: Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decneto/ Message-ID: <v6o0rf2bj1d8a1@corp.supernews.com>1  > "Homer J. Simpson" <hsimpson@burnsenergy.com> wrote in message5 news:7AQaa.29238$5P1.12943@fe07.atl2.webusenet.com... J > I am not a Pathworks GURU.  Does this package look like it includes both > server and client pieces?  > L http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11225&item=3405289342 >l  L That is just client side software, and, pretty old at that.  It doesn't evenJ include the license.  If you have access to the Quarterly Layered Produict/ CD-ROM, you get the latest PATWORKS-32 in that.   
 Brad McCusker    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 22:20:34 -05005 From: "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccuskerNosp@Mcompaq.com>k; Subject: Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnetl/ Message-ID: <v6o1475ff7t81e@corp.supernews.com>   2 "Don Sykes" <alphase@pacbell.net> wrote in message% news:3E6BAD6C.F9450C79@pacbell.net...2 >0 >  >2E > PathWorks is a Compaq/HP product that can be used for sharing files(I > transparently accross O/S's. It must be installed on both systems and Ik > think it's still costs $$.  I This statement is incorrect.  PATHWORKS products no longer require servervI and client side software, and they have not for the last 8 years or more.2  L In the case asked in the original post, only PATHWORKS on the client side is needed.   J For sharing files as mentioned above, only PATHWORKS on the server side is6 needed (presuming you are using TCP/IP for transport).  G For a correct summary of the PATHWORKS products (and a very good one at,E that), please read Peter Lanstoeger's reply in this very same thread.   
 Brad McCusker  OpenVMS Engineering-      E > I'm curious though, why don't you have other options? (I'm thinking<* > NFS). What are you trying to accomplish? >V > -- >n > Have VMS, Will TravelD > Wire paladin, San Franciscoe >. > (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:45:59 GMTi1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>e" Subject: Re: Northern Light kaput.2 Message-ID: <3E6BB517.8E32BDE7@firstdbasource.com>   Rich Jordan wrote: > F > All the browsers here keep showing a static page that hasn't changedF > since Tuesday; same DJI price, same top headlines from 4 March 2003. > H > Since 'divine' filed for bankruptcy I guess there's nobody keeping theF > data flowing, and maybe nobody around to shut things down... too badE > since it was once a very good engine (and it had a great back end).s > > > http://www.searchengineshowdown.com/newsarchive/000638.shtml  H As I understand it The "free" search portion of NorthernLight ended moreA than a year ago.  The technology was sold to Divine as a tool for D companies to pay for special research request.  Evidently, the "pay"G portion was more than most companies wanted pay or the overall businessc& model was flawed in it's expectations.   -- i Regards,  6 Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 19847 First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163a   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 03:28:15 GMTo& From: "Tim Brown" <tbrownsr@sc.rr.com>3 Subject: Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlaying-= Message-ID: <jDTaa.47753$ki.1812392@twister.southeast.rr.com>v  D I've done this with HP LaserJet printers (using PCL not postscript): 1. Scan the image, save as BMP.8 2. Convert the BMP into PCL.L 3. Send image to printer as PCL macro (you only have to send the image once)5 4. Activate image macro, print data, print form-feed.t 5. Repeat number 4 as needed.i   Timn    9 "Jerry Alan Braga" <jabraga@flanagan.ca> wrote in messagee* news:WC4aa.36$7b6.82267@news.on.tac.net...K > Is it possible with VMS to create overlay printing of text of images thatsL > will then print on a laser based printer.  We are trying to phase out someB > of our print printed forms and we were hoping that we could then >tH > 1. Scan the image and save on our VMS server as a binary image format., > 2. Create a text file via our applicationsL > 3. Merge these two objects and print to the laser printer where every pageB > of the text file would overlay exactly on the scanning document. >nF > Can this be done with VMS only via DCPS and others or do I require a layeredf7 > product of some sort.  And if so what are my options?h >  > Thanks in advancen >e >n   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 01:45:28 GMTc# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>s. Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)J Message-ID: <Y6Saa.213607$Zr%.172830@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0303071022.39555917@posting.google.com... > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message" news:<3E680A69.613C559@fsi.net>...F > > I am seriously considering offering a $1,000(US) cash reward for aC > > verifiable citation of a publication name, date and page number  where an6 > > OpenVMS ad appeared anytime in the last 18 months. >iD > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ad/ shows 3 ads (they're forD > Alphaservers, but include OpenVMS along with Tru64 in the ad text)* > which have appeared in Fortune magazine.    B In the February 24th print issue of eWeek, one finds a double-pageF spread for HP storage solutions. This is in a special section entitledC "Business Continuance: The Impact of Storage on Your Business" thaty! begins immediately after page 30.r  A The left page is 100% text with a case study of one customer, thel@ right page is 40% photo with the caption "The difference between2 24/7/365 and 24/7/364 can cost you your business."  D Guess which o/s is featured prominently on the left page?   Give up?% I'll give you a hint....it isn't VMS.   E The text says in part, "There are 114 HP-UX servers.......", and "runfD on a combination of HP-UX servers....", and "...are already on HP-UX
 servers....".b   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 19:59:26 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>S. Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)' Message-ID: <3E6BF17E.C17C7298@fsi.net>j   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > \ > In article <3E6A8E5E.36DC8D8@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: > > JF Mezei wrote:h > >> > >> "David J. Dachtera" wrote:nO > >> > *THAT* is why I'm considering offering a cash reward for such info. If IoO > >> > were to win the Lottery (the Multi-state "Mega Millions" was $28 millioncL > >> > last night, IIRC), I'd offer a substantial bounty to put some serious9 > >> > pressure on the hand-sitters at OpenVMS Marketing.t > >>S > >> Actually, how would HP react if someone were to pay for a VMS advertisement in4I > >> the wall street journal, one which also clearly states how HP is notgR > >> leveraging an asset which could be quite profitable and give HP a distinctive > >> edge over competitors ? > >iI > > All it really takes is an official "partner" who has the right to use G > > the trademarks, tradenames, etc. to put an ad out touting their ownrA > > VMS-based solutions and focusing on VMS's advantages over thed > > alternatives.n > I > As I recall Northern Light did that, but their parent company just wentg > bankrupt.,  1 What VMS based solution were they trying to sell?b  ) (Rhetorical question - think about it...)n   -- r David J. Dachtera/ dba DJE Systemsm http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/5   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2003 22:24:23 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)$. Subject: Re: OpenVMS in ads (was: [OT}:to Sue)3 Message-ID: <beKyXYPpkGz0@eisner.encompasserve.org>@  [ In article <3E6BF17E.C17C7298@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:a > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> s] >> In article <3E6A8E5E.36DC8D8@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:t  J >> > All it really takes is an official "partner" who has the right to useH >> > the trademarks, tradenames, etc. to put an ad out touting their ownB >> > VMS-based solutions and focusing on VMS's advantages over the >> > alternatives. >> aJ >> As I recall Northern Light did that, but their parent company just went >> bankrupt. > 3 > What VMS based solution were they trying to sell?   E Their Northern Light service (the free public one was a loss leader).r   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:02:17 GMT@- From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> ) Subject: Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questionsn+ Message-ID: <3E6BD608.2050709@peoplepc.com>c   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > < >>I have had my head buried in "other" OSes for many months  >  >  > You have my condolences.   Larry,  4 Thanks !  That is the best laugh I had all weekend !  4 Sadly, on Saturday, I had to sit by and watch union 9 electrician making time and a half pull a few cables and e7 install a few breakers in between their morning 1/2 hr r; break, their 1 hr 45 min lunch and afternoon 1/2 hr break. " Nice work if you can get it.  < Me ? Well, us high priced salaried personnel can't get paid = OT any more.  I have accrued an extra 2 week of vacation, if R: they let me take it.  We also sacrifice our benefits "for = the good of the company".  Sigh.  Today one of my Unix boxes a4 had a disk go to 101% full (always thought that was + interesting).  Luckily we had a few spares.o  : It is ridiculous that I'm upgrading from 4 to 9 GB drives 9 when folks have 90GB on their PCs and nothing that could i' possibly generate data to ever fill it.l   Sigh.o  < I assume you are still self employed.  I hope you are doing ; well.  I saw Alan Frisbie came close on the VMS on Itanium t
 boot time.  # Boy, I miss the old DECUS days !!!!u     -- i  
 Jack Patteeuwc   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 01:52:16 GMT"# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t) Subject: Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions I Message-ID: <kdSaa.213624$Zr%.91598@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>u  : "Jack Patteeuw" <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> wrote in message% news:3E6BD608.2050709@peoplepc.com...y > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >e= > >>I have had my head buried in "other" OSes for many monthsa > >v > >= > > You have my condolences. >  > Larry, >a6 > Thanks !  That is the best laugh I had all weekend ! >u5 > Sadly, on Saturday, I had to sit by and watch uniong: > electrician making time and a half pull a few cables and8 > install a few breakers in between their morning 1/2 hr< > break, their 1 hr 45 min lunch and afternoon 1/2 hr break. > Nice work if you can get it. > = > Me ? Well, us high priced salaried personnel can't get paidc> > OT any more.  I have accrued an extra 2 week of vacation, if; > they let me take it.  We also sacrifice our benefits "for " > the good of the company".  Sigh.    F The electricians and plumbers have it made because their work can't be1 sent offshore. Programming work is another story.n  C Makes you wonder whether a 'blue-collar' trade wouldn't have been a E better choice...in-transit charges, overtime, union 'protection', noteD having to learn a new paradigm every 4 or 5 years, all the 'surplus'A material you could take from the job-site to finish your own homem with.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 20:36:22 -0600r1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ) Subject: Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions-' Message-ID: <3E6BFA26.BA5F633B@fsi.net>    John Smith wrote:n > < > "Jack Patteeuw" <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com> wrote in message' > news:3E6BD608.2050709@peoplepc.com...9 > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > > >i? > > >>I have had my head buried in "other" OSes for many monthsd > > >o > > >t > > > You have my condolences. > >B
 > > Larry, > >@8 > > Thanks !  That is the best laugh I had all weekend ! > >P7 > > Sadly, on Saturday, I had to sit by and watch unionc< > > electrician making time and a half pull a few cables and: > > install a few breakers in between their morning 1/2 hr> > > break, their 1 hr 45 min lunch and afternoon 1/2 hr break.  > > Nice work if you can get it. > >T? > > Me ? Well, us high priced salaried personnel can't get paid @ > > OT any more.  I have accrued an extra 2 week of vacation, if= > > they let me take it.  We also sacrifice our benefits "for $ > > the good of the company".  Sigh. > H > The electricians and plumbers have it made because their work can't be3 > sent offshore. Programming work is another story.   H What about carpenters? Heavy equipment operators? Truckers of all sorts?+ ...drywallers? ...painters? ..., etc. ... ?t  H I've heard there is a shortage of prospects for the skilled trades these0 days - it ain't "cool" to be a blue-collar jock.  E > Makes you wonder whether a 'blue-collar' trade wouldn't have been a G > better choice...in-transit charges, overtime, union 'protection', notl4 > having to learn a new paradigm every 4 or 5 years,  F Dunno 'bout that. D'ya ever try to find someone who will wire your newA construction by pulling wire through conduit instead of stringingn= extension cords (Romex) from the main service entrance panel?   D ...and what about the guys putting CAT 5 or better wire in each room9 where they used to put phone wire in selected rooms only?s  D What about the guys gluing PVC pipe together instead of melting downE lead and pouring it over packed excelsior to join the cast-iron drainiC lines?  ...soldering copper instead of cutting/threading galvanizedo pipe?p   > all the 'surplus'wC > material you could take from the job-site to finish your own home  > with.a  ? Careful there. Some contracts require cost recovery for surplusi
 materials.   -- r David J. Dachtera3 dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2003 12:02:54 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303090902.60368320@posting.google.com>2  d "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<9tSdnaaN1qrxAfSjXTWcog@metrocast.net>...= > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messagem9 > news:b096a4ee.0303070733.4e2ec2e2@posting.google.com...m9 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message 1 >  news:<a5idnRM8DszJYvqjXTWcqg@metrocast.net>...eA > > > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message'= > > > news:b096a4ee.0303061429.13ad17fc@posting.google.com...-C > > > > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message<1 > > > news:<3E678A39.4FDC5595@vl.videotron.ca>...c >  > ...r > @ > > > > At this pace, it'll take centuries to achieve democracy. > > >>H > > > If it does, that's their business, not ours - though fostering theN > > > development of democracy through peaceful and ethical means is certainly > > > acceptable.  > >eJ > > They are not a free people and therefore they cannot make it their own
 > > business.m > F > That does not, however, make it *our* business - at least beyond any4 > non-invasive encouragement we may choose to offer.  E Since they cannot do it on their own, and according to you, we cannotn1 help them, I guess it's just tough luck for them!e  K > > > > > The USA may be bragging about having been in touch with plenty ofe
 >  opposition J > > > > > in Iraq who would be ready to take power once Saddam is removed. >  HINT: >  these( > > > > > may just be worse than Saddam. > > > >b' > > > > Could be. Could be better, too.  > > >sM > > > Not our business in either case:  any such concerns are the province ofg >  the4 > > > U.N., if it decides they need to be addressed. > >v > > The U.N. is a joke.  > A > So is Dubya.  Unfortunately, that does not make him irrelevant. H > Fortunately, he's not in a position to make the U.N. irrelevant eitherL > (though he clearly thinks he is, and unwillingness to work *with* the U.N.6 > does help make it seem a joke to insular Americans). >  > ...M > 3 > > >  Also, the Afgahns didn't rebel when the U.S.e > > > > defeated the Taliban.w > > > M > > > Nor did they solidify into a nation.  And the tentative government thatl >  wedF > > > installed is now criticizing us for not following through on our >  promises ofD > > > continued involvement for the second time:  just as we dropped >  AfghanistanL > > > like a hot potato after helping what later became the Taliban kick out >  theL > > > Soviets, we're 'way shy of the kind of support we promised the currentL > > > government, and they're specifically suggesting that if we do the same >  thingN > > > in Iraq (as Bush now seems to be suggesting in response to queries about >  how@ > > > much all this will cost) there'll be major problems there. > >a( > > They're lucky we helped them at all. > L > You have a reasonably broad poll to that effect?  They, after all, are theM > ones who get to decide whether our net effect was beneficial (i.e., whetheriJ > they were 'lucky'), not us:  in the absence of reliable input from theirJ > side, your statement sounds rather arrogant (and, regrettably, typically > American).  A We helped them kick the Soviets out. I don't see how that was notm- beneficial. Maybe we shouldn't have bothered.e  C I have a feeling that we'd have this Islamic fundamentalism to dealNF with even if the U.S. didn't do all the bad things you claim it did. I5 can't prove it, but you can't prove otherwise either.n  E > > > > > Iraqis should decide, not americans or anyone else.  We, ase
 >  foreignersR >  toXL > > > > > Iraq, can only complain about Iraq acting outside its own borders, >  or  >  usingN > > > > > banned weapons or torture against his own people. On the other hand, >  the >  USA,aH > > > > > with the death penalty, is really in no position to argue that	 >  Saddaml	 >  has no ? > > > > > right to kill what his country defines as a criminal.m   It's not the same.   > > > >a: > > > > Iraqis can't decide as long as Saddam is in power. > > >iK > > > Yet again, the U.N. is the sole body responsible for deciding whether  >  any1 > > > intervention to change this is appropriate.e > >  > > The U.N. is a joke.m > M > You know, your opinion of the U.N. really isn't as important as you seem tohK > think it is.  Even America's opinion as a whole isn't as important as the J > rest of the world's.  So you'd better get used to that 'joke' playing an" > important role in world affairs.  F I didn't say it was important. It was important enough for you to read and respond to!:  pJ > > > > > Don't do onto others what you don't want done onto yourself. How >  would
 >  the USAL > > > > > have reacted if, during the 2000 slection/selection debacle, other >  countriesM > > > > > would not have recognised the nomination of Bush Jr as president of  >  the >  USAJ > > > > > and requested the election considered failed with a new election	 >  held ?A > > > >3A > > > > Saddam wasn't elected, unless you believe that 100% krap.) > > >bJ > > > Leaving aside the question of whether Dubya was in fact elected, the >  fact M > > > remains that who runs Iraq is *none of our business* (any more than who5 >  runsy@ > > > the U.S. is anyone else's business, which was JF's point). > >n* > > That depends on what that leader does. > K > No, it does not - unless he presents a dire and imminent direct threat toaM > the U.S. itself, to his own neighbors (and they ask us for help), or to hiseI > own people (at the level of genocide).  Intervention about anything nota= > rising to that level is the sole responsibility of the U.N.   ? So you want to wait until he fires or threatens to fire nuclear D missiles all over the place. OK. Like I said before, I am not firmlyB on either side of the Iraq issue. I was just responding to some of your points.  J > > > > > And while the USA media may have focused on the work that the UN
 >  inspectors:H > > > > > hadn,t completed by 1998, they unfortunatly never focus on the >  amount of >  worktM > > > > > that they had succesfully done prior to 1998. Note that for all itsd
 >  might, the M > > > > > USA intelligence had been unaware of the Iraq nuclear efforts until  >  after the& > > > > > war when inspectors came in. > > > >hM > > > > Some argue that in favor of getting him now before he makes nukes, ory > > > > more nukes.h > > >wL > > > That argument ignores the increasing evidence that he has no remainingM > > > active nuclear program whatsoever - something which the inspectors feelyN > > > they'll be in a position to state with reasonable certainty before long,G > > > even if the issues of chemical and biological weapons may be lesss > > > immediately verifiable.i > > C > > The West has consistently underestimated the status of Saddam'sb > > nuclear program. > M > That's what inspections are designed to correct.  And their findings do notl > support your concerns.  F It has been found that previous inspections were flawed. Why are theseB any better? I find it hard to believe that Saddam has given up his nuclear ambitions.   > ...n >  > > > > That's not enough? > > >wI > > > No, it's not.  Not after decades of supporting regimes that oppressl >  theirJ > > > citizenry (because doing so suits our own interests) and propping up > >h: > > So you're saying that the 9/11 attacks were justified? > M > I'm saying they were understandable:  there were causes for them, and thosenG > causes would not have existed had our behavior been more considerate.-M > Whether they were justified is a subjective judgement and much more subject  > to debate.  E Let's see, we protected Osama's homeland from Iraq. Yes, I think that2$ deserves a retailiatory attack! NOT.   >  >  Are you for	 > > real?t > L > Indeed I am.  And the terrorists are even more real:  despising them won'tL > make them go away, but understanding their motives and eliminating, to theJ > degree we can reasonably do so, the causes for them would at least help.  F I didn't say despising them will make them go away. DON'T PUT WORDS INC MY MOUTH. If we can take actions that will reduce the number of newwD terrorist recruits, I'm all for them. But those already in the cause> are hopeless and nothing we can do short of destroying them or= capturing them will stop them from committing more terrorism.:   >  > >mM > > > Israel's occupation and, worse, settlement activities for three decadeso6 > > > despite the condemnation of the world community. > >s< > > It was the Arabs fault that there even is an occupation. > L > Really?  Their fault for attempting to retake the land that was taken fromA > them in 1948?  I'm afraid you have a bit of a blind spot there.a  ? Uh, remember the, uh, UN? That organization you seem to find souE important? It was they who divided the land into a Jewish state and aa Palestinian state.  C Can you explain how you totally disregard the UN for that, but findt9 them so important, or is the word, convenient, now? HMMM?C   >  >  And it is the? > > Palestinians' fault that they don't have their own country.e > N > They had had what they needed:  why would they care about getting lines on a > map in exchange?  E Uh, the PLO was founded in 1964, three years before the "occupation".n Can you explain that?s   > 
 >  They couldn7 > > have had one in 1948, but they went to war instead.t > M > Funny how some people get upset when you grab the land they were living on.e  C Well, your venerable UN said that was the right thing to do. And ituE was a small piece of land. Smaller than the pre-1967 Israel. They hadu( the rest, but chose war and lost it all.   >  From 1948 to 1967= > > they didn't care that they didn't have their own country.- > * > See above:  they just wanted their land.  ! See above, PLO, founded in 1964. t   >  >  If the ArabsEF > > hadn't forced Israel into a war in 1967, there'd be no occupation. > L > And if Israel hadn't been carved out of land that the donors were not free! > to give, there'd be no problem.i  F The UN did it. Had the Arabs accepted the decision of the UN, accepted/ Israel's right to exist, there'd be no problem.d  E > > If the Palestinians had made as good an offer to Israel as IsraelaH > > under Ehud made to them, and if Israel responded with the equivalent= > > of an intifada, wouldn't you be pretty angry with Israel?  > B > Not in the slightest:  it's the roles and their history that are6 > significant, not the specifics of who occupies them. >  >  Hmmm? Oh,I > > but turn the tables and somehow you still find Israel to be at fault.t > L > Funny how you assume the issue is about ethnicity rather than issues.  ButK > it does give some insight into Israeli hard-line thinking (or what passes 
 > for it).  A FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD! Israel offered them a country. A negotiating C starting point. They could have bargained for something better. But @ they attacked! So I guess according to you and them the IsraelisC should just pack up and leave, or just commit suicide. yeah, that'smD what you seem to want. People like you want negotiations. THAT WAS AD NEGOTIATION AND IT WAS RESPONDED TO WITH VIOLENCE!!! What more couldA Israel do except self-destruct? After countless wars by the ArabsnC against Israel, I say they are entitled to defendable borders. Yes,(F you conveniently forget all the Arabs wars against Israel. How can youF negotiate with people like these, who respond to peace offers with the Intifada round II?   >  > >gI > > Yeah, there were complaints about the offer Ehud made to them. But itnD > > is controversial just what these problems were. Even so, had theH > > Palestinians accepted it it would have been the best thing to happen > > to them in decades.u > K > And that's a *good* thing?  Rather, it's a sad commentary on what they'vea' > had to put up with for those decades.d  ? Uh, the status quo is any better? They could have had their ownrC country and an end to the "occupation". How is that not good? Oh, ItB see, it is not the ideal, uptopic solution, so better to wallow in@ misery than accept a less than perfect offer. Sorry, I don't buy reasoning like that.   > 1 >  And to respond to even a slightly flawed offere > > with suicide bombers?a > F > Well, Israel *did* have the opportunity to fix the flaws, but wasn't > inclined to.  F Just what the flaws were and even if they existed is controversial. WeD don't really know. Israel had the opportunity? They were attacked in" response!!! That's an opportunity?  * > > This is to be commended or overlooked? > I > Mostly, it's important that it be *understood*:  how it's judged reallya > isn't very relevant.  4 Oh, but it's perfectly okay for you to judge Israel.   > 
 >  What it2 > > does is show what the Palestinians really are. > N > Yup:  unwilling to be pushed beyond a certain point, regardless of the cost.  4 You could just as well say that about the Israelis.    >  >  They want to destroy > > > Israel. It still says so in the PLO's charter. IT SAYS SO! > N > Well, at least it used to.  The PLO has stated repeatedly that it would give  B LAST I HEARD IT STILL DOES. HHHEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!  I > up that goal if Israel would give up its occupation, which is in fact afM > *major* concession (i.e., they're finally willing to relinquish their claim L > to the land taken in 1948, as long as they get back the land taken later).  F Isn't this what was offered by Ehud? And they responded with violence.  L > For some reason, Israel just hasn't quite managed to agree to that (thoughD > it was coming close under Rabin, which is why a right-wing IsraeliK > assassinated him - and instead of responding with appropriate outrage andAM > the determination to continue his work, the country turned hard right, justt& > as the assassin had hoped it would). >  > >e2 > > I have lost all sympathy for the Palestinians, > J > They really couldn't care less about your sympathy (though they'd likely= > welcome it if offered):  they just want their freedom back.n  F I don't care what they think about my sympathy. That's not what we areC discussing here. Freedom? When were they free? What was the name ofc2 their country? What was the name of their capital?   >  >  though I have littleeI > > for the "settlers" who obviously don't help matters. I understand hownE > > people are not happy with the settlements. But it seems to me thel( > > Palestinians are much more at fault. >  > Other viewpoints differ.  ! Yes, other viewpoints are biased.   G > > Aid to Israel helps preserve the only democracy in the Middle East.  > J > Democracy is nice, all other things being equal.  In this case, however,K > other things are far from equal:  supporting Israel is without question atH > liability for American foreign policy, but of great domestic political   So is support of Taiwan.  M > importance.  But even large portions of the American Jewish population (andHM > for that matter many liberal Israelis) are torn between loyalty to the ideayI > of a Jewish state and horror at some of the things that state is doing.i  A True, but for every bad Israeli deed there are hundereds of worsesD Palestinian deeds. No country is perfect, but people like you always0 hold Israel, and Israel alone, to that standard.  F The Israelis could all commit suicide and you'd probably complain that! they didn't do it quickly enough!n   >  > - bill   Alan E. FeldmanM   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 15:29:28 -0400t0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E6B960C.20BD4A45@vl.videotron.ca>i   John Smith wrote:PD > But many of the colloquialisms, local geographical references, andH > indeed the 'accents', don't make the transition very well for the vastG > majority of the viewing public. I don't expect Americans to speak ther6 > Queen's English any more than I expect a Cockney to.  N If I, as a francophone, can enjoy british programming, and in fact some of theI bit of aussie programming we get here, then Shirley americans whose firstoS language is a form of english should be able to enjoy original british programming.s  K Americans sure don't have problems paying to see James Bond movies in theirpH original undubbed British English. You quickly learn the ins and outs of expressions of another country.   J The problem is that culture may become an endangered species if the UnitedJ States continues to automatically reject foreign cultural products withoutM even trying them. I australia, because the local TV networks purchase so much J USA programming, the kids are going up knowing just as much asbout MichaelF Jordan as they would local football or cricket heros. And they grow upD listening to Seinfeld, learning first about new york expressions andK lifestyles before they learn aussi expressions and lifestyles. If you don'tCM take steps to protect the individual variances in english-speaking countries,aM those variances will quickly disapear and the USA english and lifestyles willa come to prevail.  F If, on the other hand, the USA were to be more open to foreign englishG cultural products, then those disticnt variances would have a chance totJ survive because by being exported to the USA, they woudl contribute to theM global village and be seen by a lot more people instead of being relegated to./ old folks in rural areas who don't yet have TV.e      L How can CBS/NBC/ABC conclude that americans wouldn't like british sitcoms ifJ they never tried to put them up with proper marketing and with a good timeL slot ? It should would allow these networks to stop spewing out cops/robbers shows one after the other.  K And if the USA networks want a "cops and robbers" shows, they could buy thehJ Aussi series "Water Rats" (I think it was called that) which would be veryI refreshing from all the standard "CSI <whatever>" shows in the USA today.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:01:22 GMTc% From: Don Sykes <alphase@pacbell.net> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <3E6BAB8E.A21650A5@pacbell.net>    Paddy O'Brien wrote: >  > Don Sykes wrote: > >  > > Shane Smith wrote: > >n > >>Bill Todd wrote:
 > >><snip> > >>N > >>>If you saw Nightline last night, you got a chilling view of where Dubya'sQ > >>>Imperial America thinks it is heading.  We know what's best for your country O > >>>and the world and will do whatever we think is necessary to make it happenML > >>>(all of course from the best of motives), because we're America and you& > >>>can't do a damn thing to stop us. > >n > >iJ > > Well thank God it's the USA that has all the power. I can think of 100A > > other countries which would not wield it as morally as we do.8 > >1 > >fK > >>If there is a world war 3, I'm pretty sure this is what it'll be about.oL > >>America trying to impose its idea of "freedom" on the world. I wish moreG > >>average Americans traveled and actually lived in other places for a I > >>while (vacations aren't long enough), it'd give them more respect fordJ > >>other ways of life and viewpoints. They don't even realise how much ofE > >>what they think of as basic truths are actually American cultural-L > >>opinions. You wouldn't /believe/ some of the conversations I've had overE > >>here. This insular, closed minded attitude so prevalent among thetK > >>American masses is a large part of why the attacks happened. Now, afterm$ > >>the attacks, it's getting worse. > >>	 > >>Shanee > >s > >AL > > How is it then that we are BY FAR the most diverse country on earth. OurJ > > cultural inputs have been from, and continue to be from, every nation. > I > Aside from the overall population numbers, I think the UK and AustraliaeC > have populations that represent immigrants from as many differentl > countries as US.  E Maybe so at this point. When I was last in London (2000) we stayed intE the Lancaster Gate area and I have to say it was pretty darn diverse. F The only caveat I would make is that the diversity in the UK is fairly recent compared with the US.  ; I haven't been to AU, so I'll accept your assessment there.R   > J > > I've been to Asia and Europe myself several times and I appreciate allK > > the cultures I've come in contact with. My children were even raised in'C > > a French school system, setup here in the states to accommodate I > > transient expatriates (diplomats, etc.), so I've know many people whoaL > > were French speaking. And the one thing I've noticed about virtually ALLG > > of the non-US-citizens I've met is how much they appreciate the US.i > H > You are obviously more intelligent (well you're on c.o.v :-) than mostD > US tourists I experienced in UK and Europe.  In general, they wereH > considered an annoying joke -- yes, we needed your bucks, but often weH > did not need the attitude.  Probably UK and Au citizens were similarlyH > obnoxious in your country, but my experience in UK and Europe was thatB > US tourists were the pits -- but I never met you or your family.  H I haven't found people from the UK or AU as obnoxious at all. As I thinkD I said in an earlier post I enjoy interacting with people from otherF culture. Some groups (Japanese & French) have a higher percentage that= seem a little arrogant, but even those are usually tolerable.    > H > Step back a minute: in this and other recent threads it has often beenI > mentioned, even by US nationals, that US is seen to have an "attitude".s= > I agree entirely with Shane's comments from this viewpoint.  > I > > The closed mindedness you attribute to the "American masses" is found J > > everywhere else in the world too. The close-minded and un-traveled areL > > often myopic in their world view, but that IN NO WAY is limited to thoseJ > > in the US. If anything, "our masses" are exposed to other cultures far- > > more than those in the rest of the world.  > >wH > Agreed with all bar the last sentence.  US ghettoes and prejudices areG > no different from any of our other Western countries, and there is noCH > better exposure to other cultures.  Since I now live in Au, I see thatJ > the Aboriginal culture is as large a part of inheritance here as is that > of your indigenous peoples.g > J > > I hate to label anyone, but you sound like a typical Leftist; spoutingL > > from the "Red Book of the Politically Correct", subtitled "Hate America:  > > It's the Right Thing to Do". > G > Sorry, Don, I could not help laughing at your unintentional humour inpM > the above.  .. typical Leftist... Hate America, it's the Right thing to do.   F I saw that when I wrote it, but thought, oh well if it sounds a little? contradictory, so what. I guess I should have s/Right/Correct/.    > I > I doubt that any Westerner, at least, hates America and Shane choose toaD > live in your country, so I doubt that he hates it.  But in all ourH > countries, we have Left and Right, so probably many of us do not agree- > with our Government's policies of the time.- >   F Your probably right (correct). Shane is just expressing his views, butF you need to understand I live in the most liberal part of the US and IF seem to be in constant disagreement with my neighbors. And, believe meE when I say, the leftmost groups in *this* area (SF, Berkeley & Marin).@ really *do* hate America. To the extent that they really believeD everything America and its government has ever done is fundamentallyC wrong and all other peoples should be given a free pass. So maybe Ia
 overreact.   Thank you for your civility. Donn -- ,   Have VMS, Will Travelh Wire paladin, San Franciscoe   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 17:26:33 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <iwidnbasiOQAIvajXTWcoQ@metrocast.net>  ; "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messagei7 news:b096a4ee.0303090902.60368320@posting.google.com...t7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagee. news:<9tSdnaaN1qrxAfSjXTWcog@metrocast.net>...? > > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messagee; > > news:b096a4ee.0303070733.4e2ec2e2@posting.google.com...3; > > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message/3 > >  news:<a5idnRM8DszJYvqjXTWcqg@metrocast.net>...?C > > > > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messageh? > > > > news:b096a4ee.0303061429.13ad17fc@posting.google.com... E > > > > > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message-3 > > > > news:<3E678A39.4FDC5595@vl.videotron.ca>...1 > >2 > > ...  > > B > > > > > At this pace, it'll take centuries to achieve democracy. > > > >sJ > > > > If it does, that's their business, not ours - though fostering theF > > > > development of democracy through peaceful and ethical means is	 certainlys > > > > acceptable.  > > >ML > > > They are not a free people and therefore they cannot make it their own > > > business.r > > H > > That does not, however, make it *our* business - at least beyond any6 > > non-invasive encouragement we may choose to offer. >,G > Since they cannot do it on their own, and according to you, we cannotr3 > help them, I guess it's just tough luck for them!   I To some degree, that's true.  There is at least a vague parallel with thetJ situation of children whose parents are very strict, religious nuts, etc.:L their neighbors have no say whatsoever in their upbringing regardless of itsL nature, only the right to make suggestions to the parents and/or bring it toJ the attention of the proper authorities (the U.N., in the parallel case) -G and even those authorities can't intervene unless the abuses are severeoE (though intervention is sometimes more capricious than it should be).c   ...t  5 > > > >  Also, the Afgahns didn't rebel when the U.S.  > > > > > defeated the Taliban.l > > > >eJ > > > > Nor did they solidify into a nation.  And the tentative government that > >  wetH > > > > installed is now criticizing us for not following through on our > >  promises ofF > > > > continued involvement for the second time:  just as we dropped > >  AfghanistanJ > > > > like a hot potato after helping what later became the Taliban kick outS > >  theF > > > > Soviets, we're 'way shy of the kind of support we promised the currentcI > > > > government, and they're specifically suggesting that if we do the  same
 > >  thingJ > > > > in Iraq (as Bush now seems to be suggesting in response to queries abouta > >  howB > > > > much all this will cost) there'll be major problems there. > > >r* > > > They're lucky we helped them at all. > >tJ > > You have a reasonably broad poll to that effect?  They, after all, are thefG > > ones who get to decide whether our net effect was beneficial (i.e.,e whetherhL > > they were 'lucky'), not us:  in the absence of reliable input from theirL > > side, your statement sounds rather arrogant (and, regrettably, typically > > American). > C > We helped them kick the Soviets out. I don't see how that was noto
 > beneficial.0  K Since the end result was Taliban rule, I'd say that assessment was at leastV
 questionable.u  # > Maybe we shouldn't have bothered.@  L Your phrasing suggests that we 'bothered' out of the goodness of our hearts,I when in fact we couldn't have cared less about Afghanistan itself (as was C rapidly made clear after our real goal was met), just about our ownu perceived interests.   >aE > I have a feeling that we'd have this Islamic fundamentalism to deal H > with even if the U.S. didn't do all the bad things you claim it did. I7 > can't prove it, but you can't prove otherwise either.f  K However, since proof *does* exist (and not only in the form of 9/11) that a G lot of people around the world hate us, and since there are some prettytF clear reasons for this which have been advanced, the onus is on you toL provide credible alternative reasons rather than just claim "Well, you can't7 *prove* it" like the tobacco companies did for so long.p  J Absolute certainty is extremely rare in this world, but that doesn't causeE total inability to act on less than complete information:  if it did,aC nothing would ever get done.  That's in fact the rationale Dubya isdL attempting to use for invading Iraq, but the problem is that he doesn't even? have anything like the *preponderance* of evidence on his side.    > G > > > > > > Iraqis should decide, not americans or anyone else.  We, as0 > >  foreigners  > >  tohE > > > > > > Iraq, can only complain about Iraq acting outside its own  borders, > >  or2
 > >  usingJ > > > > > > banned weapons or torture against his own people. On the other hand,c > >  the	 > >  USA, J > > > > > > with the death penalty, is really in no position to argue that > >  Saddam  > >  has nonA > > > > > > right to kill what his country defines as a criminal.n >. > It's not the same.  H You're right:  it's not the same.  But neither is it entirely different:J aren't we after all the only major Western nation that still has the deathJ penalty, and if so doesn't that move us at least one step in the directionL of Saddam (leaving aside the institution of military tribunals to substituteF for otherwise required judicial process, recent discussions of whetherL torture may be justified in interrogating prisoners, etc. - which activitiesG hardly seem likely to promote the free and democratic values around thed( world which we profess to hold so dear)?   >a	 > > > > > < > > > > > Iraqis can't decide as long as Saddam is in power. > > > >rE > > > > Yet again, the U.N. is the sole body responsible for decidingw whethera > >  any3 > > > > intervention to change this is appropriate.  > > >t > > > The U.N. is a joke.  > > L > > You know, your opinion of the U.N. really isn't as important as you seem toI > > think it is.  Even America's opinion as a whole isn't as important as  theeL > > rest of the world's.  So you'd better get used to that 'joke' playing an$ > > important role in world affairs. > H > I didn't say it was important. It was important enough for you to read > and respond to!e  H Unfortunately, even misconceptions such as yours can cause damage if notH confronted.  Simply ignoring them runs the risk that others of similarly3 limited understanding may accept them as presented.   F Had the current level of anti-war protest - very specifically, protestI against action in the absense of U.N. sanction - emerged a few months ago K rather than been lulled by Dubya's apparent willingness to involve the U.N. L in the process, we would probably not be where we are today but instead haveI built up a consensus for action *in parallel with* the military build-up: C same amount of military pressure, but vastly more unified politicaloH pressure.  Saddam appears willing to allow Iraq to be attacked if in theI process this will isolate the U.S. from the rest of the world, and so far A his plan seems to be succeeding considerably better than Dubya's.p   >rL > > > > > > Don't do onto others what you don't want done onto yourself. How
 > >  would > >  the USAH > > > > > > have reacted if, during the 2000 slection/selection debacle, otherr > >  countriesL > > > > > > would not have recognised the nomination of Bush Jr as president of > >  the > >  USAL > > > > > > and requested the election considered failed with a new election > >  held ?e	 > > > > >aC > > > > > Saddam wasn't elected, unless you believe that 100% krap.o > > > > L > > > > Leaving aside the question of whether Dubya was in fact elected, the	 > >  fact K > > > > remains that who runs Iraq is *none of our business* (any more thanu whon	 > >  runsdB > > > > the U.S. is anyone else's business, which was JF's point). > > >l, > > > That depends on what that leader does. > >eJ > > No, it does not - unless he presents a dire and imminent direct threat toK > > the U.S. itself, to his own neighbors (and they ask us for help), or toe hisdK > > own people (at the level of genocide).  Intervention about anything notl? > > rising to that level is the sole responsibility of the U.N.  >lA > So you want to wait until he fires or threatens to fire nuclearn > missiles all over the place.  L Your debating skills appear to be descending into incompetence, since it hasL already been observed that there is *no* evidence whatsoever that he had anyE continuing nuclear program at all let alone one which could result in-K warheads until the end of this decade.  Even if that were not the case, andiL even if active on-the-ground inspections ceased, satellite and high-altitudeD surveillance is capable of providing adequate advance notice of suchF imminent danger to launch a preemptive attack if and when it develops.  (  OK. Like I said before, I am not firmlyD > on either side of the Iraq issue. I was just responding to some of > your points.  D If you're suggesting that you don't really subscribe to some of yourF statements above but were just advancing them as debating points, thenI you've been wasting both my time and the time of anyone else bothering to J read this.  Conversely, if you do really subscribe to them, it's not clear1 why you wouldn't be firmly in favor of a war now.g   > L > > > > > > And while the USA media may have focused on the work that the UN > >  inspectorsaJ > > > > > > hadn,t completed by 1998, they unfortunatly never focus on the > >  amount of	 > >  workfK > > > > > > that they had succesfully done prior to 1998. Note that for alln itsc > >  might, thecI > > > > > > USA intelligence had been unaware of the Iraq nuclear effortsm untilt > >  after the( > > > > > > war when inspectors came in.	 > > > > > L > > > > > Some argue that in favor of getting him now before he makes nukes, or > > > > > more nukes.  > > > >tD > > > > That argument ignores the increasing evidence that he has no	 remainingcJ > > > > active nuclear program whatsoever - something which the inspectors feelJ > > > > they'll be in a position to state with reasonable certainty before long, I > > > > even if the issues of chemical and biological weapons may be lessd > > > > immediately verifiable.  > > >eE > > > The West has consistently underestimated the status of Saddam'sh > > > nuclear program. > >gK > > That's what inspections are designed to correct.  And their findings do  noti > > support your concerns. > H > It has been found that previous inspections were flawed. Why are theseD > any better? I find it hard to believe that Saddam has given up his > nuclear ambitions.  L If such unsupported suspicions were justification for war, there would never be any peace anywhere.   >  > > ...s > >e > > > > > That's not enough? > > > > K > > > > No, it's not.  Not after decades of supporting regimes that oppresso
 > >  theirL > > > > citizenry (because doing so suits our own interests) and propping up > > >l< > > > So you're saying that the 9/11 attacks were justified? > >oI > > I'm saying they were understandable:  there were causes for them, andt thoseeI > > causes would not have existed had our behavior been more considerate.'G > > Whether they were justified is a subjective judgement and much moree subjecth > > to debate. >sG > Let's see, we protected Osama's homeland from Iraq. Yes, I think thate& > deserves a retailiatory attack! NOT.  L Iraq's threat to Saudi Arabia was hypothetical.  Our military presence there	 was real.    >y > >u > >  Are you for > > > real?  > > H > > Indeed I am.  And the terrorists are even more real:  despising them won'toJ > > make them go away, but understanding their motives and eliminating, to the L > > degree we can reasonably do so, the causes for them would at least help. >eH > I didn't say despising them will make them go away. DON'T PUT WORDS IN > MY MOUTH.m  I Perhaps 'despising' was not the best word to use.  By asking "Are you foroJ real?" you suggested that my position was so far out on the fringe that itL didn't matter.  My point is that the very real attacks of 9/11 and elsewhereJ prove that such positions *do* matter, regardless of what you may think ofF them:  you may not agree with them, but you ignore them at your peril.  :  If we can take actions that will reduce the number of newF > terrorist recruits, I'm all for them. But those already in the cause@ > are hopeless and nothing we can do short of destroying them or? > capturing them will stop them from committing more terrorism.o  E Since you don't seem to have a clue about the detailed motivation fortL terror, it's not clear why you think you understand terrorists nearly to theI degree that your last sentence suggests.  However, since the actions mostiH likely to reduce the inclination of people to become terrorists are alsoG probably those most likely to reduce the motivation of already-existing $ terrorists, I'm not sure it matters.   >  > >r > > >sG > > > > Israel's occupation and, worse, settlement activities for threea decades 8 > > > > despite the condemnation of the world community. > > >e> > > > It was the Arabs fault that there even is an occupation. > >rI > > Really?  Their fault for attempting to retake the land that was takend fromC > > them in 1948?  I'm afraid you have a bit of a blind spot there.d > A > Uh, remember the, uh, UN? That organization you seem to find so,G > important? It was they who divided the land into a Jewish state and a  > Palestinian state.  J So they erred in that case:  nobody's perfect, but it doesn't mean they'reK generally useless either.  And after an additional half-century they should ? have learned at least a bit more about how to handle the world.0  K *Who* was responsible for the land-grab really doesn't change the fact that L trying to get it back was understandable and defensible, which was my point.   >(E > Can you explain how you totally disregard the UN for that, but find ; > them so important, or is the word, convenient, now? HMMM?e  K While I just did so above, I'm getting a bit tired of the sophomoric naturec of some of your responses.   >t > >  > >  And it is theA > > > Palestinians' fault that they don't have their own country.o > >.K > > They had had what they needed:  why would they care about getting liness on a > > map in exchange? >wG > Uh, the PLO was founded in 1964, three years before the "occupation".e > Can you explain that?a  K Well, their name just *might* provide a clue.  In 1964, their objective wasdC still to retake Israel itself - land which was in a very real sense I 'occupied' but from which a large portion of the previous inhabitants hadl, been evicted rather than oppressed in place.   >  > >o > >  They could 9 > > > have had one in 1948, but they went to war instead.e > > K > > Funny how some people get upset when you grab the land they were livingt on.a >uE > Well, your venerable UN said that was the right thing to do. And iti > was a small piece of land.  I So if I come along and take your house away, do you just grin and bear itn0 because it is just a small piece of real estate?  +  Smaller than the pre-1967 Israel. They had * > the rest, but chose war and lost it all.  J They chose to try to take back what had been theirs.  Who won the war doesK not affect the legitimacy of that goal, nor legitimize permanent occupationo of *more* land as a result.    >  > >  From 1948 to 1967? > > > they didn't care that they didn't have their own country.f > >a, > > See above:  they just wanted their land. >p" > See above, PLO, founded in 1964.  K I guess you really didn't understand, after all:  'their land' in the aboveeL context was *Israel*.  There's a clear parallel in civil law:  the fact thatK you may have been given stolen property by the party who stole it in no way G confers any title to that property (even if you paid for it) - it stillp) rightfully belongs to the original owner.   K I don't advocate returning Israel to the Palestinians *now*, and as I noted J they also appear willing to accept that as long as they get back the other land taken *after* 1948.   >  > >c > >  If the Arabs H > > > hadn't forced Israel into a war in 1967, there'd be no occupation. > >-I > > And if Israel hadn't been carved out of land that the donors were notj free# > > to give, there'd be no problem.e >sH > The UN did it. Had the Arabs accepted the decision of the UN, accepted1 > Israel's right to exist, there'd be no problem.n  L The U.N. decision (including Israel's 'right to exist') was an arbitrary oneI by a very newly-established body still finding its feet.  It was easy foreL the great powers to accept and support the decision because it didn't affectK them (save to assuage some of the collective guilt for what had happened to K the Jews under Hitler and to which many of them had turned a somewhat blindsH eye for so long).  It was a lot harder for the people evicted from theirH land to accept, and they responded in an entirely understandable manner.   >mG > > > If the Palestinians had made as good an offer to Israel as IsraeleJ > > > under Ehud made to them, and if Israel responded with the equivalent? > > > of an intifada, wouldn't you be pretty angry with Israel?r > >nD > > Not in the slightest:  it's the roles and their history that are8 > > significant, not the specifics of who occupies them. > >  > >  Hmmm? Oh,K > > > but turn the tables and somehow you still find Israel to be at fault.  > >sI > > Funny how you assume the issue is about ethnicity rather than issues.  ButtF > > it does give some insight into Israeli hard-line thinking (or what passes > > for it). >oC > FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD! Israel offered them a country. A negotiatingeE > starting point. They could have bargained for something better. But B > they attacked! So I guess according to you and them the IsraelisE > should just pack up and leave, or just commit suicide. yeah, that'se > what you seem to want.  H It doesn't matter what I want (or what you want).  What the PalestiniansJ seem to want (and what seems reasonable to me) is for Israel to get out ofA the territory it occupied since 1948 in return for a cessation ofUL hostilities and relinquishing of the claim to the land of Israel proper.  NoH one is asking the Israelis to 'pack up and leave' from Israel itself any( more:  that's just right-wing hyperbole.  .  People like you want negotiations. THAT WAS AF > NEGOTIATION AND IT WAS RESPONDED TO WITH VIOLENCE!!! What more couldC > Israel do except self-destruct? After countless wars by the Arabsi@ > against Israel, I say they are entitled to defendable borders.  J And I say that they wouldn't need to worry nearly so much about the natureI of their borders (which are of course reasonably defendable regardless of H where they're drawn in this day and age) if they took the land for peace@ deal that has been on the table since Rabin nearly completed it.    Yes,e< > you conveniently forget all the Arabs wars against Israel.  L IIRC Israel started both the 1967 and the 1973 wars, so the 'countless' warsK by the Arabs against Israel at least technically seem to be confined to thetL single one in 1948 (at least I think there was one then) - though there's anK excellent chance that they would have started at least one of the others ifu$ Israel hadn't attacked preemptively.    How can youH > negotiate with people like these, who respond to peace offers with the > Intifada round II?  J You *really* don't get it.  A peace offer which doesn't adequately addressK the issues for which you're fighting is merely a capitulation, so of course L you don't accept it.  And you use whatever means are available to you (whichE in this case is *precisely* the Intifada) to continue the fight untili  something acceptable is offered.  I Relinquishing their claim to Israel proper (i.e., to a great deal of whataK was *their* land) is a *major* concession that reflects the reality of overlI a half-century of use and development by Israel.  Demanding the return ofrL the rest of *their* land, which in no comparable way has Israel invested in, is hardly unreasonable.a   >f > >i > > > K > > > Yeah, there were complaints about the offer Ehud made to them. But iteF > > > is controversial just what these problems were. Even so, had theJ > > > Palestinians accepted it it would have been the best thing to happen > > > to them in decades.  > >tE > > And that's a *good* thing?  Rather, it's a sad commentary on whatc they've ) > > had to put up with for those decades.t >e# > Uh, the status quo is any better?n  J That's their decision to make.  And it's pretty clear that they're willingH to continue the status quo until they feel that they have been offered a just alternative.l    They could have had their own? > country and an end to the "occupation". How is that not good?   F My strong impression is that they were offered an end to *some* of theL occupation in return for relinquishing their claim on the *rest* of the landL occupied since 1967 and 1973.  If so, I can easily see how that would not be acceptable.     Oh, ID > see, it is not the ideal, uptopic solution, so better to wallow inB > misery than accept a less than perfect offer. Sorry, I don't buy > reasoning like that.  L You don't have to:  it's their decision whether that's acceptable or whetherH the Intifada should continue.  And at least some people don't find their3 decision to continue the fight at all unreasonable.    >  > > 3 > >  And to respond to even a slightly flawed offerr > > > with suicide bombers?  > > H > > Well, Israel *did* have the opportunity to fix the flaws, but wasn't > > inclined to. >lH > Just what the flaws were and even if they existed is controversial. WeF > don't really know. Israel had the opportunity? They were attacked in$ > response!!! That's an opportunity?  E Israel hasn't been 'attacked' since 1948, nor has an attack even beeniH credibly threatened since 1973.  They could stop what you're choosing toE describe as 'attacks' (i.e., the Intifada) tomorrow by addressing thet  concerns they failed to address.   >h, > > > This is to be commended or overlooked? > >hK > > Mostly, it's important that it be *understood*:  how it's judged really  > > isn't very relevant. > 6 > Oh, but it's perfectly okay for you to judge Israel.  G Of course it is, just as it's OK for you to judge the Palestinians.  My E point is that neither judgement is particularly relevant to finding a,K solution to the problem:  understanding the causes of the problem is what's 	 relevant.r   >P > >i > >  What it4 > > > does is show what the Palestinians really are. > >tJ > > Yup:  unwilling to be pushed beyond a certain point, regardless of the cost.o > 5 > You could just as well say that about the Israelis.   J No, you couldn't:  they are not an occupied people but an occupying power.H What the Palestinians want is freedom; what the Israelis seem to want is their land.    >h > >t > >  They want to destroyh@ > > > Israel. It still says so in the PLO's charter. IT SAYS SO! > >eK > > Well, at least it used to.  The PLO has stated repeatedly that it would  give >iD > LAST I HEARD IT STILL DOES. HHHEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!  K The willingness to remove it is clear.  But while hostilities continue theys have no reason to do so.   >qK > > up that goal if Israel would give up its occupation, which is in fact aII > > *major* concession (i.e., they're finally willing to relinquish theiro claim F > > to the land taken in 1948, as long as they get back the land taken later).o >oH > Isn't this what was offered by Ehud? And they responded with violence.  I If that were the case, I'd have to reevaluate my feelings on this matter.rK But I don't believe that Barak offered more than partial return of the landa taken after 1948.h   >eF > > For some reason, Israel just hasn't quite managed to agree to that (thoughsF > > it was coming close under Rabin, which is why a right-wing IsraeliI > > assassinated him - and instead of responding with appropriate outragec andnJ > > the determination to continue his work, the country turned hard right, just( > > as the assassin had hoped it would). > >M > > >f4 > > > I have lost all sympathy for the Palestinians, > >lL > > They really couldn't care less about your sympathy (though they'd likely? > > welcome it if offered):  they just want their freedom back.  >gH > I don't care what they think about my sympathy. That's not what we areE > discussing here. Freedom? When were they free? What was the name ofe4 > their country? What was the name of their capital?  J You don't need a country to be free.  Some people would argue that you can# sometimes be more free without one.    >s > >r > >  though I have little K > > > for the "settlers" who obviously don't help matters. I understand howtG > > > people are not happy with the settlements. But it seems to me thee* > > > Palestinians are much more at fault. > >g > > Other viewpoints differ. >u# > Yes, other viewpoints are biased.x  K Certainly no more than your own, and since you appear to be in the minoritya> of world opinion in this matter arguably *less* than your own.   >tI > > > Aid to Israel helps preserve the only democracy in the Middle East.t > >cL > > Democracy is nice, all other things being equal.  In this case, however,K > > other things are far from equal:  supporting Israel is without questiont arJ > > liability for American foreign policy, but of great domestic political >e > So is support of Taiwan.  B Not nearly as clear, since unlike Israel Taiwan has great economicJ significance not only for us but for the world.  And we did meet the ChinaJ question half way, by recognizing the PRC and supporting its assumption of China's seat at the U.N.   >oJ > > importance.  But even large portions of the American Jewish population (andJ > > for that matter many liberal Israelis) are torn between loyalty to the ideaK > > of a Jewish state and horror at some of the things that state is doing.  > C > True, but for every bad Israeli deed there are hundereds of worsewF > Palestinian deeds. No country is perfect, but people like you always2 > hold Israel, and Israel alone, to that standard.  K The Palestinians are not a country, but an oppressed people.  As such, theyuF take what actions they can and many people around the world understandD though deplore the necessity.  Israel, by contrast, is a country, anE occupying power, and a military powerhouse:  it has the *capacity* todJ respond in a far more civilized and measured manner, and its failure to do so is the cause of the censure.-  I Of course, since well over twice as many Palestinians have been killed by F Israelis during the Intifada as the reverse, even your suggestion thatH Palestinians account for hundreds of atrocities for every Israeli one is absurd.t   > H > The Israelis could all commit suicide and you'd probably complain that# > they didn't do it quickly enough!a  J I've suggested pretty plainly what I think the Israelis should do, but you$ don't appear to have been listening.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:17:45 GMTi! From: rob.buxton@wcc.spam.govt.nz>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants% Message-ID: <3e6bd8fc.257126318@news>g  . On Fri, 7 Mar 2003 17:04:52 -0500, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:    >h >  >> Vietnam War >oM >That was an undeclared (and thus unConstitutional) war in very much the samee: >sense that the proposed war with Iraq seems likely to be.  < In Laos they refer to it as "the American war" which puts an interesting perspective on it. >r >> and Gulf War, >t   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 02:06:55 GMTg# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsJ Message-ID: <3rSaa.213650$Zr%.178929@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messaget, news:iwidnbasiOQAIvajXTWcoQ@metrocast.net... >s= > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messagec9 > news:b096a4ee.0303090902.60368320@posting.google.com...  > >m; > > Uh, the PLO was founded in 1964, three years before thes
 "occupation".  > > Can you explain that?A >h? > Well, their name just *might* provide a clue.  In 1964, theire
 objective wastE > still to retake Israel itself - land which was in a very real sense ; > 'occupied' but from which a large portion of the previousa inhabitants hadr. > been evicted rather than oppressed in place.     Bill,o  C Arabs living in the pre-partition Palestine either chose to stay incE the newly formed Israel, or they chose to leave in 1948-49....in bothyC cases it was of their own free will. It was not an eviction, as yout seem to suggest.  A The majority of those that left did so under the premise that the F surrounding Arab nations would re-mount an offensive against Israel inC short order and that many of those that left wanted to take part ineC that offensive. That those who left Israel were 'disenfranchised orsF shortchanged' by the surrounding Arab nations by not again mounting anB offensive against Israel for many years has nothing to do with the$ actions of the government of Israel.  F I don't know the full extent of the political situation within Israel,B but it is my understanding that Arbs living inside of Israel carryA Israeli passports and have the right to vote, the right to attend D schools, and conduct business, exactly the same as any other IsraeliC citizen, Jewish or otherwise. That hardly constitutes oppression ofe those that remained.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Mar 2003 21:43:45 -0800S. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303092143.5b734c0e@posting.google.com>o  d "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<iwidnbasiOQAIvajXTWcoQ@metrocast.net>...= > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messageb9 > news:b096a4ee.0303090902.60368320@posting.google.com...t9 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message,1 >  news:<9tSdnaaN1qrxAfSjXTWcog@metrocast.net>... A > > > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messagel= > > > news:b096a4ee.0303070733.4e2ec2e2@posting.google.com... = > > > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message-1 >  news:<a5idnRM8DszJYvqjXTWcqg@metrocast.net>... E > > > > > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messagerA > > > > > news:b096a4ee.0303061429.13ad17fc@posting.google.com...tG > > > > > > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in messageS5 > > > > > news:<3E678A39.4FDC5595@vl.videotron.ca>...f > > >h	 > > > ...c > > >sD > > > > > > At this pace, it'll take centuries to achieve democracy.	 > > > > > L > > > > > If it does, that's their business, not ours - though fostering theH > > > > > development of democracy through peaceful and ethical means is >  certainly > > > > > acceptable.  > > > > N > > > > They are not a free people and therefore they cannot make it their own > > > > business.i > > >oJ > > > That does not, however, make it *our* business - at least beyond any8 > > > non-invasive encouragement we may choose to offer. > >eI > > Since they cannot do it on their own, and according to you, we cannot 5 > > help them, I guess it's just tough luck for them!h > K > To some degree, that's true.  There is at least a vague parallel with the L > situation of children whose parents are very strict, religious nuts, etc.:N > their neighbors have no say whatsoever in their upbringing regardless of itsN > nature, only the right to make suggestions to the parents and/or bring it toL > the attention of the proper authorities (the U.N., in the parallel case) -I > and even those authorities can't intervene unless the abuses are severeaG > (though intervention is sometimes more capricious than it should be).o   OK.p   >  > ...r > 7 > > > > >  Also, the Afgahns didn't rebel when the U.S.e! > > > > > > defeated the Taliban.r	 > > > > >iL > > > > > Nor did they solidify into a nation.  And the tentative government >  thatd >  weeJ > > > > > installed is now criticizing us for not following through on our >  promises ofH > > > > > continued involvement for the second time:  just as we dropped >  AfghanistanL > > > > > like a hot potato after helping what later became the Taliban kick >  out >  theH > > > > > Soviets, we're 'way shy of the kind of support we promised the
 >  currentK > > > > > government, and they're specifically suggesting that if we do theo >  samei >  thingL > > > > > in Iraq (as Bush now seems to be suggesting in response to queries >  about >  howD > > > > > much all this will cost) there'll be major problems there. > > > > , > > > > They're lucky we helped them at all. > > >eL > > > You have a reasonably broad poll to that effect?  They, after all, are >  theI > > > ones who get to decide whether our net effect was beneficial (i.e.,e
 >  whetherN > > > they were 'lucky'), not us:  in the absence of reliable input from theirN > > > side, your statement sounds rather arrogant (and, regrettably, typically > > > American). > >dE > > We helped them kick the Soviets out. I don't see how that was notr > > beneficial.  > M > Since the end result was Taliban rule, I'd say that assessment was at least  > questionable.   E Well, it's not like we knew the Taliban would be the result. The were B invaded by the Soviets, and we helped them turn back the invasion. Normally that's a good thing.    > % > > Maybe we shouldn't have bothered.t > N > Your phrasing suggests that we 'bothered' out of the goodness of our hearts,K > when in fact we couldn't have cared less about Afghanistan itself (as wasaE > rapidly made clear after our real goal was met), just about our owno > perceived interests.  F No, we didn't do it for the Afghans in particular. It seems to me that@ we did it to help contain Communism both for our benefit and theD world's in general. Look at Communism in N. Korea. It's unbelievablyE awful. And Soviet Communism was pretty bad, too. It seems to me to ber< a good goal to try to prevent more of that. Even the best ofA intentions can have unexpected and undesirable consequences. It'srF pretty easy with hindsight, which one never has at the time of action,
 of course.  G > > I have a feeling that we'd have this Islamic fundamentalism to dealiJ > > with even if the U.S. didn't do all the bad things you claim it did. I9 > > can't prove it, but you can't prove otherwise either.e > M > However, since proof *does* exist (and not only in the form of 9/11) that a I > lot of people around the world hate us, and since there are some pretty H > clear reasons for this which have been advanced, the onus is on you toN > provide credible alternative reasons rather than just claim "Well, you can't9 > *prove* it" like the tobacco companies did for so long.   F A lot of people believe a lot of silly things. Sorry, being a majority doesn't make them right.  L > Absolute certainty is extremely rare in this world, but that doesn't causeG > total inability to act on less than complete information:  if it did, E > nothing would ever get done.  That's in fact the rationale Dubya ishN > attempting to use for invading Iraq, but the problem is that he doesn't evenA > have anything like the *preponderance* of evidence on his side.   E Then what is his motivation? He is risking his very presidency on it.h There must be something to it.   >  > > I > > > > > > > Iraqis should decide, not americans or anyone else.  We, asa > > >  foreigners 	 > > >  to,G > > > > > > > Iraq, can only complain about Iraq acting outside its ownd >  borders,t	 > > >  oro > > >  usingL > > > > > > > banned weapons or torture against his own people. On the other >  hand,
 > > >  the > > >  USA,sL > > > > > > > with the death penalty, is really in no position to argue that
 > > >  Saddamo
 > > >  has nonC > > > > > > > right to kill what his country defines as a criminal.  > >i > > It's not the same. > J > You're right:  it's not the same.  But neither is it entirely different:L > aren't we after all the only major Western nation that still has the deathL > penalty, and if so doesn't that move us at least one step in the directionN > of Saddam (leaving aside the institution of military tribunals to substituteH > for otherwise required judicial process, recent discussions of whetherN > torture may be justified in interrogating prisoners, etc. - which activitiesI > hardly seem likely to promote the free and democratic values around theh* > world which we profess to hold so dear)?  D But it's different enough. BTW, I am against the death penalty, evenD though I believe some do deserve it. I am against it because I thinkB there is too much of a chance that innocent people will or alreadyF have been killed. And it causes too much trouble. Life without parole,@ maybe in solitary confinement in extreme cases, would be better.  E So you're saying that if someone steals your land, you have the right C to go and kill them? But that would be the death penalty, which you @ are against, except, of course, for Palestinian suicide bombers.   >  > >n > > > > > > > > > > > > > Iraqis can't decide as long as Saddam is in power.	 > > > > > G > > > > > Yet again, the U.N. is the sole body responsible for deciding 
 >  whether >  any5 > > > > > intervention to change this is appropriate.S > > > >  > > > > The U.N. is a joke.  > > > N > > > You know, your opinion of the U.N. really isn't as important as you seem >  to'K > > > think it is.  Even America's opinion as a whole isn't as important ash >  theN > > > rest of the world's.  So you'd better get used to that 'joke' playing an& > > > important role in world affairs. > >SJ > > I didn't say it was important. It was important enough for you to read > > and respond to!j > J > Unfortunately, even misconceptions such as yours can cause damage if notJ > confronted.  Simply ignoring them runs the risk that others of similarly5 > limited understanding may accept them as presented.   D If you take out the misconceptions part, I am flattered. :-) And who+ are you to say they are misconceptions? :-)r   > H > Had the current level of anti-war protest - very specifically, protestK > against action in the absense of U.N. sanction - emerged a few months ago M > rather than been lulled by Dubya's apparent willingness to involve the U.N.sN > in the process, we would probably not be where we are today but instead haveK > built up a consensus for action *in parallel with* the military build-up: E > same amount of military pressure, but vastly more unified political.J > pressure.  Saddam appears willing to allow Iraq to be attacked if in theK > process this will isolate the U.S. from the rest of the world, and so farnC > his plan seems to be succeeding considerably better than Dubya's.   D I never thought that Bush cared much about the U.N. He only involvedE them hoping to get them on his side to reduce potential opposition to,B his plans. If the protestors thought otherwise, they were foolish.E Actually, I thought this was pretty obvious from the start. You couldsF tell he was thinking "All right, I'll try to get the U.N. in on this".C I'm not sure, but I think he's always said that the U.S. will do ita alone if it has to.r   >  > > N > > > > > > > Don't do onto others what you don't want done onto yourself. How > > >  would > > >  the USAJ > > > > > > > have reacted if, during the 2000 slection/selection debacle, >  other >  countriesN > > > > > > > would not have recognised the nomination of Bush Jr as president >  of 
 > > >  the
 > > >  USAN > > > > > > > and requested the election considered failed with a new election	 >  held ?a > > > > > >,E > > > > > > Saddam wasn't elected, unless you believe that 100% krap. 	 > > > > >oN > > > > > Leaving aside the question of whether Dubya was in fact elected, the >  fact M > > > > > remains that who runs Iraq is *none of our business* (any more than  >  who >  runs D > > > > > the U.S. is anyone else's business, which was JF's point). > > > > . > > > > That depends on what that leader does. > > > L > > > No, it does not - unless he presents a dire and imminent direct threat >  tooM > > > the U.S. itself, to his own neighbors (and they ask us for help), or to' >  hisM > > > own people (at the level of genocide).  Intervention about anything not.A > > > rising to that level is the sole responsibility of the U.N.t > >cC > > So you want to wait until he fires or threatens to fire nuclear   > > missiles all over the place. > N > Your debating skills appear to be descending into incompetence, since it has  F Yes, I am not a great debater. But I went for this discussion anyway.   N > already been observed that there is *no* evidence whatsoever that he had anyG > continuing nuclear program at all let alone one which could result in M > warheads until the end of this decade.  Even if that were not the case, andd  F He is the master of hiding weapons programs. How many times do we haveB to be surprised before we learn this? I think when this is over weB will have been surprised yet again how close he has come to having7 nuclear weapons, or perhaps he already has one or more.i  N > even if active on-the-ground inspections ceased, satellite and high-altitudeF > surveillance is capable of providing adequate advance notice of suchH > imminent danger to launch a preemptive attack if and when it develops.  B I'm not so sure of this. A preemptive attack by then might involve much more casualties.a   > * >  OK. Like I said before, I am not firmlyF > > on either side of the Iraq issue. I was just responding to some of > > your points. > F > If you're suggesting that you don't really subscribe to some of yourH > statements above but were just advancing them as debating points, thenK > you've been wasting both my time and the time of anyone else bothering to L > read this.  Conversely, if you do really subscribe to them, it's not clear3 > why you wouldn't be firmly in favor of a war now.c  F I am not firmly in favor of war now because I do not know enough aboutF it. However, that doesn't mean I can't respond to some of your points.E Responding to your points doesn't involve the consequences of war, so E I feel much more free to do so. I can feel reasonably confident about @ some things, enough to respond to your comments, without knowingF enough about whether this upcoming war is justified. I think there are8 very few people who really are in the position to judge.  < And if you think it's a waste of time, then stop responding.  N > > > > > > > And while the USA media may have focused on the work that the UN
 >  inspectorspL > > > > > > > hadn,t completed by 1998, they unfortunatly never focus on the > > >  amount of > > >  workeM > > > > > > > that they had succesfully done prior to 1998. Note that for all  >  its
 >  might, the.K > > > > > > > USA intelligence had been unaware of the Iraq nuclear efforts  >  until >  after the* > > > > > > > war when inspectors came in. > > > > > >iN > > > > > > Some argue that in favor of getting him now before he makes nukes, >  orr > > > > > > more nukes.f	 > > > > > F > > > > > That argument ignores the increasing evidence that he has no >  remainingL > > > > > active nuclear program whatsoever - something which the inspectors >  feeltL > > > > > they'll be in a position to state with reasonable certainty before >  long,K > > > > > even if the issues of chemical and biological weapons may be lesst! > > > > > immediately verifiable.e > > > >tG > > > > The West has consistently underestimated the status of Saddam'sh > > > > nuclear program. > > > M > > > That's what inspections are designed to correct.  And their findings don >  not > > > support your concerns. > > J > > It has been found that previous inspections were flawed. Why are theseF > > any better? I find it hard to believe that Saddam has given up his > > nuclear ambitions. > N > If such unsupported suspicions were justification for war, there would never > be any peace anywhere.  > Haven't the defectors told us about the nuclear plans? I don'tD remember specifically what they said. Also, I'm not so sure they are so unsupported.a  C My point here is not that he does or doesn't have an active nucleariF program. My point is that the inspectors have repeatedly, and I think,A every time, grossly underestimated the extent of Saddam's weaponss	 programs.o   >  > >l	 > > > ...e > > >a > > > > > > That's not enough?	 > > > > >tM > > > > > No, it's not.  Not after decades of supporting regimes that oppressw >  theirN > > > > > citizenry (because doing so suits our own interests) and propping up > > > >t> > > > > So you're saying that the 9/11 attacks were justified? > > > K > > > I'm saying they were understandable:  there were causes for them, and  >  thoseK > > > causes would not have existed had our behavior been more considerate.tI > > > Whether they were justified is a subjective judgement and much morei
 >  subject > > > to debate. > >eI > > Let's see, we protected Osama's homeland from Iraq. Yes, I think thatt( > > deserves a retailiatory attack! NOT. > N > Iraq's threat to Saudi Arabia was hypothetical.  Our military presence there > was real.t  F And wasn't one of the, if not the, major complaint of Osama, that holyF land was defiled by the mere presence of American troops? For this, we; are to somehow see justification for the 9/11 attacks? Huh?c   > > >  Are you for
 > > > > real?t > > > J > > > Indeed I am.  And the terrorists are even more real:  despising them >  won'tL > > > make them go away, but understanding their motives and eliminating, to >  theN > > > degree we can reasonably do so, the causes for them would at least help. > >mJ > > I didn't say despising them will make them go away. DON'T PUT WORDS IN
 > > MY MOUTH.z > K > Perhaps 'despising' was not the best word to use.  By asking "Are you forJL > real?" you suggested that my position was so far out on the fringe that itN > didn't matter.  My point is that the very real attacks of 9/11 and elsewhereL > prove that such positions *do* matter, regardless of what you may think ofH > them:  you may not agree with them, but you ignore them at your peril.  C Who said to ignore them? Their motives? They hate America. They arebA envious of America. They have been taught that America is full of B infidels who must be destroyed so they can set up a strict IslamicC world. These are people who insist that their religion is the rightvB one and everyone else must either convert or be killed. And in the' case of the West, apparently be killed.t  F Yes, I am not a great debater. But I went for this discussion anyway.   B Just because America is hated by some, or even a majority, doesn't mean they are right.   < >  If we can take actions that will reduce the number of newH > > terrorist recruits, I'm all for them. But those already in the causeB > > are hopeless and nothing we can do short of destroying them orA > > capturing them will stop them from committing more terrorism.c > G > Since you don't seem to have a clue about the detailed motivation foreN > terror, it's not clear why you think you understand terrorists nearly to theK > degree that your last sentence suggests.  However, since the actions mostoJ > likely to reduce the inclination of people to become terrorists are alsoI > probably those most likely to reduce the motivation of already-existing & > terrorists, I'm not sure it matters.  F Sorry, I don't believe it. And I'm getting tired of the insults. MaybeB it's you who are getting sophomoric. If you have to insult me withC "you don't seem to have a clue", then you weaken your own argument. E I'm trying to stay above that. All right, maybe I let a few sneak in.t3 I apologize for that. I will endeavor to do better.t  C Anyway, I still find it very hard to believe that anything short of7C converting America to a Taliban-like state will stop any current Al  Qaeda members.  I > > > > > Israel's occupation and, worse, settlement activities for three 
 >  decades: > > > > > despite the condemnation of the world community. > > > >x@ > > > > It was the Arabs fault that there even is an occupation. > > >oK > > > Really?  Their fault for attempting to retake the land that was takeno >  from E > > > them in 1948?  I'm afraid you have a bit of a blind spot there.y > >nC > > Uh, remember the, uh, UN? That organization you seem to find soeI > > important? It was they who divided the land into a Jewish state and aa > > Palestinian state. > L > So they erred in that case:  nobody's perfect, but it doesn't mean they'reM > generally useless either.  And after an additional half-century they shouldfA > have learned at least a bit more about how to handle the world.r  ' So maybe they erred in this case, also.s   > M > *Who* was responsible for the land-grab really doesn't change the fact thatsN > trying to get it back was understandable and defensible, which was my point.  E I don't know the full history of that stupid piece of land. I do knowyB that the Jews have been probably the most persecuted people on theE planet. And after WWII they said ENOUGH! Is it so terrible for such auD people to obtain, via the UN, a small parcel of land that was once aC very small part of their ancient homeland, after what the world hasy done to the Jews?   E BTW, we could redraw quite a few borders. We could give the U.S. backhC to the native Americans. I'm sure Europe would look different, too.e; And probably the rest of the world. So why focus on Israel?   G > > Can you explain how you totally disregard the UN for that, but find = > > them so important, or is the word, convenient, now? HMMM?r > M > While I just did so above, I'm getting a bit tired of the sophomoric naturei > of some of your responses.   That's your opinion.  D Now, come on. You found it very important to include the UN for thisE Iraq thing. Then you belittle it for Israel because *your* opinion isb$ different. I find that inconsistent.   > > >  And it is theC > > > > Palestinians' fault that they don't have their own country.t > > > M > > > They had had what they needed:  why would they care about getting linesg >  on ah > > > map in exchange? > >oI > > Uh, the PLO was founded in 1964, three years before the "occupation".  > > Can you explain that?  > M > Well, their name just *might* provide a clue.  In 1964, their objective was E > still to retake Israel itself - land which was in a very real senseaK > 'occupied' but from which a large portion of the previous inhabitants hadf. > been evicted rather than oppressed in place.  A But you said the Palestinians were happy that they had their landh between 1948 and 1967.   >  > >s > > >  > > >  They couldc; > > > > have had one in 1948, but they went to war instead.g > > > M > > > Funny how some people get upset when you grab the land they were living  >  on. > >DG > > Well, your venerable UN said that was the right thing to do. And it  > > was a small piece of land. > K > So if I come along and take your house away, do you just grin and bear it 2 > because it is just a small piece of real estate?  D It's a little more complex than that. Some claim that the Arabs told= the Palestinians to leave and let the Arab armies destroy thehE just-born state of Israel after which they could return. Some counter F that argument, though. I don't know what the real truth of this is and you probably don't either.  - >  Smaller than the pre-1967 Israel. They hads, > > the rest, but chose war and lost it all. > L > They chose to try to take back what had been theirs.  Who won the war doesM > not affect the legitimacy of that goal, nor legitimize permanent occupationw > of *more* land as a result.o  , It wasn't theirs, it was under British rule.   >  > >H > > >  From 1948 to 1967A > > > > they didn't care that they didn't have their own country.a > > >d. > > > See above:  they just wanted their land. > >c$ > > See above, PLO, founded in 1964. > M > I guess you really didn't understand, after all:  'their land' in the aboveeN > context was *Israel*.  There's a clear parallel in civil law:  the fact thatM > you may have been given stolen property by the party who stole it in no way I > confers any title to that property (even if you paid for it) - it stilla+ > rightfully belongs to the original owner.n  E Well, it depends how far back you go in time. Go back far enough, andeF it was Jewish land. And why aren't you complaining about all the other: stolen land in the world? You are focusing on Israel. Why?  M > I don't advocate returning Israel to the Palestinians *now*, and as I noted L > they also appear willing to accept that as long as they get back the other > land taken *after* 1948.  @ I don't believe it. They appear to want to take the whole thing.6 Sometimes it appears that they just want to kill Jews.   > > >  If the ArabsrJ > > > > hadn't forced Israel into a war in 1967, there'd be no occupation. > > >sK > > > And if Israel hadn't been carved out of land that the donors were not. >  frees% > > > to give, there'd be no problem.c > >uJ > > The UN did it. Had the Arabs accepted the decision of the UN, accepted3 > > Israel's right to exist, there'd be no problem.n > N > The U.N. decision (including Israel's 'right to exist') was an arbitrary oneK > by a very newly-established body still finding its feet.  It was easy forsN > the great powers to accept and support the decision because it didn't affectM > them (save to assuage some of the collective guilt for what had happened tonM > the Jews under Hitler and to which many of them had turned a somewhat blindlJ > eye for so long).  It was a lot harder for the people evicted from theirJ > land to accept, and they responded in an entirely understandable manner.  * Well, it's controversial who ejected them.   >  > > I > > > > If the Palestinians had made as good an offer to Israel as Israel L > > > > under Ehud made to them, and if Israel responded with the equivalentA > > > > of an intifada, wouldn't you be pretty angry with Israel?e > > > F > > > Not in the slightest:  it's the roles and their history that are: > > > significant, not the specifics of who occupies them. > > >  > > >  Hmmm? Oh,M > > > > but turn the tables and somehow you still find Israel to be at fault.n > > >kK > > > Funny how you assume the issue is about ethnicity rather than issues.  >  ButH > > > it does give some insight into Israeli hard-line thinking (or what	 >  passes  > > > for it). > >oE > > FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD! Israel offered them a country. A negotiatingoG > > starting point. They could have bargained for something better. ButwD > > they attacked! So I guess according to you and them the IsraelisG > > should just pack up and leave, or just commit suicide. yeah, that'sf > > what you seem to want. > J > It doesn't matter what I want (or what you want).  What the PalestiniansL > seem to want (and what seems reasonable to me) is for Israel to get out ofC > the territory it occupied since 1948 in return for a cessation of N > hostilities and relinquishing of the claim to the land of Israel proper.  NoJ > one is asking the Israelis to 'pack up and leave' from Israel itself any* > more:  that's just right-wing hyperbole.  E If they only bombed the settlements, you would have a point. But theynD also bomb pre-1948 Israel. Also, Palestinian maps show all of IsraelD as part of the future state of Palestine. All you seem to care aboutF is what the Palestinians want. Suppose they want all the riches of theA world? Should we give that to them? What they want means nothing.A  B BTW, I've always been against the settlements. They are a needlessD huge drain on the Israeli army and only makes matters worse in otherB ways. But Ehud Barak's deal was to dismantle most of them and giveF them their own country. From there they could have improved their lot.5 Instead they made things worse for everyone involved.    > 0 >  People like you want negotiations. THAT WAS AH > > NEGOTIATION AND IT WAS RESPONDED TO WITH VIOLENCE!!! What more couldE > > Israel do except self-destruct? After countless wars by the ArabstB > > against Israel, I say they are entitled to defendable borders. > L > And I say that they wouldn't need to worry nearly so much about the natureK > of their borders (which are of course reasonably defendable regardless ofsJ > where they're drawn in this day and age) if they took the land for peaceB > deal that has been on the table since Rabin nearly completed it.  F Are you actually blaming the Palestinians here for something? Sorry, I" missed your point. Who are "they"?   >  Yes,.> > > you conveniently forget all the Arabs wars against Israel. > N > IIRC Israel started both the 1967 and the 1973 wars, so the 'countless' warsM > by the Arabs against Israel at least technically seem to be confined to the N > single one in 1948 (at least I think there was one then) - though there's anM > excellent chance that they would have started at least one of the others ifW& > Israel hadn't attacked preemptively.  B I find it hard to believe that Israel "started" these wars without> good reason. But that's just my opinion. I don't have detailedC knowledge of these wars. But I do think that Egypt made some ratheraE offensive moves if not actual attacks in the 1973 war. Wait a minute.tD ISTR that Egypt attacked ON Yom Kippur. That's why it was called theB Yom Kippur war. So I belive it was Egypt who attacked. And in 1967E didn't the Arabs blockade the Gulf of Aqaba? Is not a blockade an actb of war?m   >  >  How can youJ > > negotiate with people like these, who respond to peace offers with the > > Intifada round II? > L > You *really* don't get it.  A peace offer which doesn't adequately addressM > the issues for which you're fighting is merely a capitulation, so of courserN > you don't accept it.  And you use whatever means are available to you (whichG > in this case is *precisely* the Intifada) to continue the fight untile" > something acceptable is offered.  @ Well, when your country is attacked by suicide bombers, don't be@ surprised if such country responds like Israel did. The intifadaC doesn't seem to have done any good. It solidified the right wing in E Israel. It turned most doves into hawks. And it resulted in worseningoE of the Palestinians situation. No, I don't think it was justified andwF I don't think it was a good idea. And I don't think it would have been> terribly difficult to predict that it would have a bad result.  F And if you don't stop with the insults, I'll simply declare myself theB winner of this argument! :-) Seriously, please stick to arguments. I'll try to do the same.   > K > Relinquishing their claim to Israel proper (i.e., to a great deal of whatwM > was *their* land) is a *major* concession that reflects the reality of overeK > a half-century of use and development by Israel.  Demanding the return ofaN > the rest of *their* land, which in no comparable way has Israel invested in, > is hardly unreasonable.i  F I haven't heard of this relinquishing. And if they did, I suspect it's a ruse.i  M > > > > Yeah, there were complaints about the offer Ehud made to them. But it H > > > > is controversial just what these problems were. Even so, had theL > > > > Palestinians accepted it it would have been the best thing to happen > > > > to them in decades.b > > >lG > > > And that's a *good* thing?  Rather, it's a sad commentary on whatl
 >  they've+ > > > had to put up with for those decades.  > >r% > > Uh, the status quo is any better?- > L > That's their decision to make.  And it's pretty clear that they're willingJ > to continue the status quo until they feel that they have been offered a > just alternative.3  ; If everyone insisted on total justice, it would be mutually"C incompatible and there would be constant war resulting in even lessr/ justice. Sometimes you just have to compromise.u   >   >  They could have had their ownA > > country and an end to the "occupation". How is that not good?h > H > My strong impression is that they were offered an end to *some* of theN > occupation in return for relinquishing their claim on the *rest* of the landN > occupied since 1967 and 1973.  If so, I can easily see how that would not be
 > acceptable.r  E So anytime anyone finds something unacceptable, instead of bargainingl@ for something better, they should send in the suicide bombers. I+ thought you were against the death penalty.W  > It was an initial offer. You can bargain for something better.D Instead, they attacked! I don't find that attack to be justified. DoA you really expect anyone attacked like that to just go "Oh, okay,s@ here, we'll just do whatever you want." Would you expect that inF response to 9/11 the U.S. would just convert to Taliban-style Islam? I- mean, the Taliban would find that acceptable.i   >  Oh, IF > > see, it is not the ideal, uptopic solution, so better to wallow inD > > misery than accept a less than perfect offer. Sorry, I don't buy > > reasoning like that. > N > You don't have to:  it's their decision whether that's acceptable or whetherJ > the Intifada should continue.  And at least some people don't find their5 > decision to continue the fight at all unreasonable.g  7 That doesn't mean they made a wise or justified choice.e  5 > > >  And to respond to even a slightly flawed offern > > > > with suicide bombers?h > > >eJ > > > Well, Israel *did* have the opportunity to fix the flaws, but wasn't > > > inclined to. > >lJ > > Just what the flaws were and even if they existed is controversial. WeH > > don't really know. Israel had the opportunity? They were attacked in& > > response!!! That's an opportunity? > G > Israel hasn't been 'attacked' since 1948, nor has an attack even beenhJ > credibly threatened since 1973.  They could stop what you're choosing toG > describe as 'attacks' (i.e., the Intifada) tomorrow by addressing thec" > concerns they failed to address.  
 Nonsense.   . > > > > This is to be commended or overlooked? > > >lM > > > Mostly, it's important that it be *understood*:  how it's judged really- > > > isn't very relevant. > > 8 > > Oh, but it's perfectly okay for you to judge Israel. > I > Of course it is, just as it's OK for you to judge the Palestinians.  My.G > point is that neither judgement is particularly relevant to finding asM > solution to the problem:  understanding the causes of the problem is what's  > relevant.s >  > >0 > > >. > > >  What it6 > > > > does is show what the Palestinians really are. > > >.L > > > Yup:  unwilling to be pushed beyond a certain point, regardless of the >  cost. > >o7 > > You could just as well say that about the Israelis.0 > L > No, you couldn't:  they are not an occupied people but an occupying power.J > What the Palestinians want is freedom; what the Israelis seem to want is
 > their land.n  B The Jews have been persecuted by the rest of the world. After WWIIF they said "never again" and realized that the only way to survive as aF people was to establish their own country. Would it really have been aA great injustice if Israel had it's initial allotment of land? You5D can't have 100% justice for everyone. It's physically impossible. SoC you do the best you can. But you seem to insist on 100% justice for D the Palestinians regardless of what happens to Israel. I don't think
 that's right.e   >  > >f > > >a > > >  They want to destroyaB > > > > Israel. It still says so in the PLO's charter. IT SAYS SO! > > >eM > > > Well, at least it used to.  The PLO has stated repeatedly that it woulds >  giveo > > F > > LAST I HEARD IT STILL DOES. HHHEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! > M > The willingness to remove it is clear.  But while hostilities continue theyo > have no reason to do so.  F What willingness? There's no such thing. They have no reason to do so?C Huh? Israel should bargain with a people who have clearly stated inuE print, in that charter, that their primary goal is the destruction ofrA the state of Israel? There's no asterisk that says "well, if theyrC would just be nice and fair to us, we'll be happy to live in peace,a side by side with them".   >  > >bM > > > up that goal if Israel would give up its occupation, which is in fact alK > > > *major* concession (i.e., they're finally willing to relinquish theirs >  claimH > > > to the land taken in 1948, as long as they get back the land taken
 >  later). > >rJ > > Isn't this what was offered by Ehud? And they responded with violence. > K > If that were the case, I'd have to reevaluate my feelings on this matter..M > But I don't believe that Barak offered more than partial return of the landi > taken after 1948.o  C Again you insist on 100% justice for Palestinians without regard to A anything else. Why do you focus on them? What about all the other ( cases? The American Indian, for example.   >  > > H > > > For some reason, Israel just hasn't quite managed to agree to that
 >  (thoughH > > > it was coming close under Rabin, which is why a right-wing IsraeliK > > > assassinated him - and instead of responding with appropriate outrageu >  andL > > > the determination to continue his work, the country turned hard right, >  just * > > > as the assassin had hoped it would). > > >  > > > > 6 > > > > I have lost all sympathy for the Palestinians, > > >aN > > > They really couldn't care less about your sympathy (though they'd likelyA > > > welcome it if offered):  they just want their freedom back.  > >hJ > > I don't care what they think about my sympathy. That's not what we areG > > discussing here. Freedom? When were they free? What was the name ofl6 > > their country? What was the name of their capital? > L > You don't need a country to be free.  Some people would argue that you can% > sometimes be more free without one.s >  > >s > > >t > > >  though I have littleeM > > > > for the "settlers" who obviously don't help matters. I understand hownI > > > > people are not happy with the settlements. But it seems to me thet, > > > > Palestinians are much more at fault. > > >v > > > Other viewpoints differ. > >g% > > Yes, other viewpoints are biased.n > M > Certainly no more than your own, and since you appear to be in the minoritys@ > of world opinion in this matter arguably *less* than your own.  , Majority opinion does not imply correctness.   >  > > K > > > > Aid to Israel helps preserve the only democracy in the Middle East.o > > >oN > > > Democracy is nice, all other things being equal.  In this case, however,M > > > other things are far from equal:  supporting Israel is without question  >  aL > > > liability for American foreign policy, but of great domestic political > >o > > So is support of Taiwan. > D > Not nearly as clear, since unlike Israel Taiwan has great economicL > significance not only for us but for the world.  And we did meet the ChinaL > question half way, by recognizing the PRC and supporting its assumption of > China's seat at the U.N. >  > > L > > > importance.  But even large portions of the American Jewish population >  (andoL > > > for that matter many liberal Israelis) are torn between loyalty to the >  ideahM > > > of a Jewish state and horror at some of the things that state is doing.e > >vE > > True, but for every bad Israeli deed there are hundereds of worsetH > > Palestinian deeds. No country is perfect, but people like you always4 > > hold Israel, and Israel alone, to that standard. > M > The Palestinians are not a country, but an oppressed people.  As such, theycH > take what actions they can and many people around the world understandF > though deplore the necessity.  Israel, by contrast, is a country, anG > occupying power, and a military powerhouse:  it has the *capacity* topL > respond in a far more civilized and measured manner, and its failure to do! > so is the cause of the censure.o  A Only if they are willing to tolerate an endless string of suicideg bombers.   > K > Of course, since well over twice as many Palestinians have been killed bysH > Israelis during the Intifada as the reverse, even your suggestion thatJ > Palestinians account for hundreds of atrocities for every Israeli one is	 > absurd.   E Well, that depends. The Israeli actions are retaliatory. And at leastoD some of the deaths are their own fault. Remember the ambulances thatC instead of carrying injured, actually carried more suicide bombers?i  E If you're going to attack a country, you better expect a response andk4 realize that there will be casualties on both sides.  E And when Israel retaliates, they attempt to kill only the terrorists.rC They try to keep civilian casualties to a minimum (with perhaps oneeB exception event). When the Palestinians attack, they *try* to killD civilians, even if some of the are Arabs! It is not the numbers, but. the motives, that prompted my statement above.  E That is a big difference. Israelis are trying to kill the terrorists.wE The Palestinians are trying to kill all Israelis with maximum pain byh. putting nails and razors in the suicide bombs.  J > > The Israelis could all commit suicide and you'd probably complain that% > > they didn't do it quickly enough!B > L > I've suggested pretty plainly what I think the Israelis should do, but you& > don't appear to have been listening.   ???      >  > - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:50:02 -0400o0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>" Subject: OT: Definition of a troll/ Message-ID: <3E6BB6F4.218CD87A@vl.videotron.ca>     Found this in another newsgroup:  C *******************************************************************gC *******************************************************************n@   ATTENTION USENET VISITORS, THIS AREA HAS BEEN DECLARED A TROLL@   WILDLIFE REFUGE.   TO LEARN ABOUT THE TROLL, ITS HABITAT,  AND@   ITS WAY OF LIFE, PLEASE READ THE SIGN-POST BELOW. IF YOU WOULD@   LIKE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE TROLL,  YOU CAN PICK UP BOOKS AND@   SOUVENIRS IN THE GIFT SHOP AT THE END OF THE TOUR.   THANK YOU@   IN ADVANCE FOR OBSERVING ALL TROLL WILDLIFE REFUGE RULES, HAVE
   A NICE DAY.sC ******************************************************************* C *******************************************************************m    *  -----------------------------------------*  |  Common name: Woodland Troll          |*  |  Scientific name: Trollus Useneticus  |*  -----------------------------------------        < ############################################################< #                                                          #< #               PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS:                  #< #                                                          #< #  The common woodland troll (Trollus Useneticus) is an    #< #  approximately 1.7m long nocturnal furry creature that   #< #  has been found to exist in nearly every climate and     #< #  latitude.  Predominant features include: a very pale    #< #  complexion, a large bony ridge above the eyes, a dense  #< #  cranium, dragging knuckles, and a pungent odor.         #< #                                                          #< ############################################################      < ############################################################< #                                                          #< #                         HABITAT:                         #< #                                                          #< #  Most trolls spend the daylight hours under a large rock #< #  sleeping.  Unfortunately, the natural habitat of the    #< #  troll has been encroached by development (as is all too #< #  common these days).  The modern troll has to make due   #< #  with a slimy, moss covered rock.  Often, trolls are     #< #  forced to endure poor sanitation and filthy living      #< #  conditions.  Combined with the general lack of hygiene  #< #  among trolls, this results in a very unpleasant odor.   #< #                                                          #< ############################################################      < ############################################################< #                                                          #< #                 ACTIVITIES AND DIET:                     #< #                                                          #< #  During their active period at night, the common troll   #< #  engages in numerous activities, though the most         #< #  important of these is foraging for food.  The one       #< #  characteristic that ties all different troll species    #< #  and sub-species together is their diet.  Trolls         #< #  invariably survive off of a combination of cheetos,     #< #  arguments, and annoying others.  A typical troll        #< #  requires approximately 10 arguments and flames per day  #< #  just to stay alive.  With the increasing use of         #< #  killfiles and just regular ignoring of trolls, it has   #< #  become more and more difficult for trolls to eke out a  #< #  basic sustenance.                                       #< #                                                          #< ############################################################      < ############################################################< #                                                          #< #                     KNOWN PREDATORS:                     #< #                                                          #< #  Unfortunately, trolls have many predators.  Most common #< #  among them are the helpful researcher, the informative  #< #  poster, the cool headed responder, and the kill-filer.  #< #  The cool header responder is technically not a troll    #< #  predator however.  Trolls are typically unfazed by      #< #  logical counter arguments and cool headed reason.       #< #  However, even though their posts do not deliver the     #< #  same level of sustenance that a "flamer" or an "annoyed #< #  poster" may provide, they still provide a valuable      #< #  source of dietary fiber for the troll.                  #< #                                                          #< #  The most dangerous predators for the trolls are the     #< #  helpful researcher, the informative poster, and the     #< #  kill-filer.  The common troll is highly allergic to     #< #  fact, real data, and research.  Upon skin contact with  #< #  actual hard evidence and real data, the troll will      #< #  experience intense itching and burning at the site of   #< #  contact, followed by lesions and blisters.  Eventually, #< #  this results in loss of skin near the area of contact,  #< #  and usually to loss of a limb (in the example of        #< #  contact near the arm or leg).  Contact with facts and   #< #  data near the facial area usually results in a slow     #< #  painful death.  Contact with extremely high doses of    #< #  fact and hard data can cause temporary loss of          #< #  consciousness and even permanent brain damage for the   #< #  troll.                                                  #< #                                                          #< #  The kill-filer poses a much more insidious threat to    #< #  the troll.  Not posing a direct threat to the troll per #< #  se, the kill-filer simply deprives the troll of yet     #< #  another source of nourishment. Some trolls have         #< #  developed counter measures to thwart the kill-filers,   #< #  usually this takes the form of a type of camoflage.     #< #                                                          #< #  The trolls' predators have reaped a terrible slaughter  #< #  over the years, resulting in the death of great hordes  #< #  of trolls.  Trolls continue to breed rapidly though and #< #  their population is stable.  However, it is unknown how #< #  long this situation can persist.  Eventually, natural   #< #  predators and poachers may result in lower numbers of   #< #  trolls.  Already we are seeing lower diversity among    #< #  the different troll species.  That is why this troll    #< #  habitat refuge exists, to ensure the preservation of    #< #  the troll for not only our future, but the future of    #< #  our children.                                           #< #                                                          #< ############################################################        ;  ==========================================================e;  / This troll habitat refuge has been paid for in part by / ;  / the anti Troll-Defamation League, the International    /u;  / Society for the Advancement of Trolls, and the Troll   /u;  / Habitat Preservation Alliance.                         /r;  ==========================================================I   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:14:25 +0100e4 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> Subject: Re: Portmapping& Message-ID: <3E6BA0A1.3070505@Free.fr>  G Fixed. My Olitec SX200 ADSL router has an html interface on the inside tF leg which allows to do advanced programming. I found somewhere a page G giving a port mapping from the outside port range of the router to the tI inside systems via a port nr and an IP address, which was exactly what I   was looking for.   I set 80 80 192.168.0.2n        23 23 192.168.0.3  G Now, I know that http is port 80, and FTP port 23, but how to know all  % the others? (just for my training :-)t   D.   Didier Morandi wrote: C > There is a nice tool under WinDaube with allows a gateway system aF > connected to the Internet to map different ports to different other * > systems behind it in a domestic network. > I > I have a friend who has a PWS600au as the Internet Gateway, linked via qH > ADSL. "Behind", there are a few systems where he wishes to be able to 6 > do, from "outside" FTP on one, HTTP on another, etc. > 0 > How do you do that with the TCP/IP portmapper?   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 20:31:53 GMTh6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: Portmapping5 Message-ID: <ZwNaa.136342$AV5.1502563@news.chello.at>   ] In article <3E6BA0A1.3070505@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> writes: H >Now, I know that http is port 80, and FTP port 23, but how to know all & >the others? (just for my training :-)  I It is now in a online database at the Internet Assigned Numbers Authorityt   	http://www.iana.org/m  G and was at earlier times an RFC (Request For Comment) Internet Documenti RFC1700, RFC1340, RFC1060, ...  L I personally would start with RFC1700 but never forgetting it is outdated...  * 	http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1700.txt   -- i Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERs% Network and OpenVMS system specialistc E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 15:45:26 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Portmapping/ Message-ID: <3E6B99C9.34D571C6@vl.videotron.ca>y   Didier Morandi wrote:t  H > Now, I know that http is port 80, and FTP port 23, but how to know all' > the others? (just for my training :-)   , http://www.iana.org/assignments/port-numbers   Is the authoritative source !,   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 20:17:11 -0500( From: "hein" <hein_news@eps.zko.dec.com> Subject: Re: RMS version numberr, Message-ID: <3e6be949$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  , > "John" <john@dateline.gg> wrote in message$ > news:b47d1r$cjb$1@ns2.cwgsy.net...H > > Can anybody tell me how to get the version number of a newly created file?  : I > I am inside a BASIC program and have just opened a file for writing.  Ii wantL > to know what version of the file I have just created, as there may alreadyL > be versions in existence, and other versions may follow later; yet I still7 > want to be able to refer back to this particular one.s  K I'd recommend learning to deal with File Id's to be able to refer back to al file.r0 Eitherway, you need data from the RMS NAM block.@ BASIC conveniently makes a NAM block available through USEROPEN.E Others mentioned the well documented USEROPEN, but getting to the NAMtF data is a little tricky, dereferencing pointers and such. So here is a working example:? (FABDEF is not really needed in read_nam but avoids a buglette)a  F         open "tmp.tmp" for output as file #1, useropen useropen_create         endo    SUB read_nam ( Namdef User_nam )     OPTION TYPE = EXPLICIT@    %INCLUDE "$FABDEF" %FROM %LIBRARY "SYS$LIBRARY:BASIC$STARLET"@    %INCLUDE "$NAMDEF" %FROM %LIBRARY "SYS$LIBRARY:BASIC$STARLET"    DECLARE STRING the_versione    DECLARE LONG version_length'    version_length = User_nam::nam$b_veroH    CALL STR$COPY_R ( the_version, version_length, User_nam::nam$l_ver by value ) F    PRINT "FID=(";User_nam::nam$w_fid(1%);",";User_nam::nam$w_fid(2%) &F         ;",";User_nam::nam$w_fid(3%);") version = '"; the_version; "'" END SUBa  F FUNCTION LONG useropen_create ( Fabdef User_fab, Rabdef User_rab, LONG	 Channel )o     OPTION TYPE = EXPLICIT@    %INCLUDE "$FABDEF" %FROM %LIBRARY "SYS$LIBRARY:BASIC$STARLET"@    %INCLUDE "$RABDEF" %FROM %LIBRARY "SYS$LIBRARY:BASIC$STARLET"@    %INCLUDE "$RMSDEF" %FROM %LIBRARY "SYS$LIBRARY:BASIC$STARLET"@    %INCLUDE "STARLET" %FROM %LIBRARY "SYS$LIBRARY:BASIC$STARLET"       DECLARE LONG    Rms_status'     Rms_status = Sys$create( User_fab )r1     CALL read_nam ( User_fab::fab$l_nam by value)i       IF Rms_status AND 1%     THEN,         Rms_status = Sys$connect( User_rab )
     END IF END FUNCTION Rms_statusi     copy_r:nF http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/5936/5936pro_004.html#index_x_75
 nam$x_ver:H http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/4523/4523pro_007.html#index_x_365   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:44:58 GMTa4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda 8 Message-ID: <9adn6v82f47mt7j1f71so40ddbqvrmcneh@4ax.com>  @ On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 07:42:34 -0500 in alt.sys.pdp11, John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote:   >John Sauter writes: >w8 >I don't believe you can have more than one RSX20F-based9 >PDP-11 on a KL10.  I recommend running the DN60 softwaren >on the other three. >i >Eric Smith wrote: > ; >Wouldn't DN87 software typically be useful to more people?h >r >John Sauter responded:y > 2 >The DN87, if I remember correctly, did DECnet and; >served as a terminal concentrator.  If that is more usefult5 >to you, by all means use it.  I recommended the DN60i7 >series because I had worked on it when I was with DEC.A& >    John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)  @ Would only be useful if you could set it up talking to a process. running Hercules with simulated bisync lines.   9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canadah --  F Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply@ abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com ? abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com  B abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com - abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov				spam traps    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:23:08 GMTn+ From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (leslie) 6 Subject: The Inquirer: Why Isn't HP Promoting OpenVMS?; Message-ID: <gbWaa.32257$wA2.1114103@twister.austin.rr.com>l Keywords: no,promoting,vms  +    http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8198l#    Why isn't HP promoting Open VMS?   F   "...So why is it being given short shrift in favor of Windows, Linux@    and HP-UX and the mythical--and nearly impossible to actually+    implement--Consolidated Enterprise Unix?e    ?F    There's little margin to be made on Linux, Bill Gates makes more onF    Windows sales than does HP, and the Unix market is in turmoil theseB    days. With all the Tru64 kernel developers sacked, how will theI    Consolidated Enterprise UNIX be consolidated? Magic beans? Pixie dust?r    yG    Which leaves HP with an excellent opportunity to grow, not maintain, H    the VMS (and NonStop NSK) customer base and revenue stream. HP's lastA    financial report indicates that HP is turning its back on thistE    opportunity. NSK revenues fell in the last quarter, and OpenVMS isa7    being treated like my crazy aunt in the basement..."h    .& Perhaps a question for Carly's email ?    2 --Jerry Leslie   (my opinions are strictly my own)9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for emailr   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 13:53:27 -0500, From: "David Turner" <dbturner@islandco.com>9 Subject: Re: UK Hobbyist seeks personality (for BA356-JC)r/ Message-ID: <v6n3k2qpa57bc6@news.supernews.com>e  # The Codeine made it "tolerable" :0)y   DT< "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3E6A92EA.EA40CFD2@fsi.net...  > David Turner wrote:h
 > > [snip]; > > (I was in hospital actually having my wrist rebroken !)c
 > > [snip] >n
 > *CRINGE* >s > -- > David J. Dachterac > dba DJE Systemsl > http://www.djesys.com/ >e* > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 05:36:15 GMT + From: Jeff Cameron <JCam90502@jcameron.com>r Subject: Re: VMS fails to boot2 Message-ID: <BA91644D.5C48%JCam90502@jcameron.com>  K On 3/8/03 4:34 PM, in article 3E6A8BF7.8005288B@vl.videotron.ca, "JF Mezei"I( <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:   > Ray Zimmerman wrote:F >> is already installed, but it fails during boot up. I'd like to justJ >> start over with a fresh installation, but I don't know how to interruptE >> the boot process so that I can "boot dka400" from the SRM console.o > N > Look on the back on the box. There is a tiny push botton that interrupts the! > machine and gets you to the >>>r  K The button may be recessed inside a little square hole next to the EthernetfI AUI or BNC connector. Some of the 3100s required a paperclip to press it,t4 others, the button protruded enough for your finger.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 20:15:54 -0600s1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a Subject: Re: why buy new ?' Message-ID: <3E6BF55A.7CA0E520@fsi.net>o   David Turner wrote:  > 4 > Complete VMS Ready Alpha Systems starting at $699. > ) > EV6 Systems starting at $779 configuredo >  > All with 1 Year Warranty!!!   D All right. You have my attention... Is there a list somewhere on the web?   -- d David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.135 ************************