1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 11 Mar 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 138       Contents: Re: 164LX and 21164 questionP Re: Benchmarketeering (was: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release fP RE: Benchmarketeering (was: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release f Re: Carly's feedback link  Re: Carly's feedback link H Re: Could HP manage this with former VMS customers if they really tried?- DECnet SERVICE CIRCUIT for multiple e-devices  Re: DHCP on WE1. Re: DHCP on WE1.P Re: ECC (was IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly	vs. IBM  monopoP Re: ECC (was IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM  monopo6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?) environment variables lost on AlphaPC 164 B Re: Ideas for implementing fork() on VMS ?, was: Re: fork() on VMS Re: LDAP authentication in CSWS 0 Re: Local port number for an incoming connection0 Re: Local port number for an incoming connection Login timeouts.  RE: Login timeouts. < Re: Maximum Record Size Error (BUCKET - CLUSTER SIZE detour)< n-up Printing under OpenVMS 7.3 to HP LaserJet 4000 Printer.* Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants re: re: national moratorium...  Re: national moratorium...thread  Re: national moratorium...thread2 Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnet Re: Numeric usernames  Re: RE: Numeric usernames  Re: Numeric usernames  Re: RE: Numeric usernames  One version of a file ONLY.  Re: One version of a file ONLY.  Re: One version of a file ONLY.  Re: One version of a file ONLY.  Re: One version of a file ONLY.  Re: One version of a file ONLY. * Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlaying orange juice [was: unix]1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants  Re: OT: About snow...  Re: OT: About snow...  Re: OT: About snow... + Pathworks 6.0C and Windows 2000 AD upgrade? / Re: Pathworks 6.0C and Windows 2000 AD upgrade?  Problem with DELETE  Re: Problem with DELETE  Re: Problem with DELETE  Re: Problem with DELETE  Re: Problem with DELETE  Re: Problem with DELETE  Process State "RWCAP"  Re: Process State "RWCAP"  Re: Process State "RWCAP"  Re: Process State "RWCAP"  Re: Process State "RWCAP" 	 PSDC data 
 Re: PSDC data 7 RE: Setting SRM console variables from within OpenVMS ? P Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda Re: TCPIP: bug or feature  Re: TCPIP: bug or feature  Re: TCPIP: bug or feature  Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?  Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?  Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?  Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?  Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?  Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?  Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone? G Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses G Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses - Re: [OT] After two months of SAP training :-(   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:17:01 +0100 + From: Roland Barmettler <rob@bbp.remove.ch> % Subject: Re: 164LX and 21164 question 7 Message-ID: <20030311101701.75f216d6.rob@bbp.remove.ch>   
 Hello Guys  F Has any of you tried running VMS on a 164SX ? It does boot from the CDE but machine checks just before installation... is it possible at all, 8 or are the differences between the SX and LX too large ?   Greetings, Roland    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:46:42 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> Y Subject: Re: Benchmarketeering (was: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release f H Message-ID: <C0kba.88760$em1.71187@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  0 "Hoff Hoffman" <hoff@hp.nospam> wrote in message* news:k7fba.168$rf3.147@news.cpqcorp.net... >  > E >   Now as for benchmarks, OpenVMS has a lab where we are running and  are A >   looking at and are benchmarking with customer applications --  various F >   third-party applications have been "up on the lift", and engineersD >   have crawled around, under, and within the application code, and also@ >   within the OpenVMS supporting code.  From an engineering and customerC >   perspective, it's more interesting to see real application code  and A >   work on removing real problems or improving real performance.   B While college-level CS courses attempt to teach people how to codeD properly, they seldom teach people how to code optimally. That happy@ state arrives, if ever, only after years of practical on-the-job experience.   D It might be useful if, through the customer lab, it were possible to@ get customer permission to extract, 'sanitize', and publish code; samples that are 'before and after' cases of where dramatic B performance improvements have been achieved through code tweaking,B substituting system services for user code, architectural changes,E etc.... Whether published in the revived VMS Technical Journal, or as D a Performance Improvement Pit Stop section on the OpenVMS web pages,4 it would be a useful resource for the VMS community.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 11:59:27 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) Y Subject: RE: Benchmarketeering (was: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release f 3 Message-ID: <b96Md9htKlCA@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <k7fba.168$rf3.147@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: > D >   I think I have the attributions correct, but (if not) apologies. > 8 >> From: Tim Walls [mailto:timwa@stamford.snowgoons.com] >> Sent: March 7, 2003 7:11 PM > ..; >> In article <mqnh6vsel43b1vpf9usq1g05nhpc4oc2kb@4ax.com>, . > :> 	jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> writes:J > :> No offence, but I speak as an independent observer who's been lurkingJ > :> in this group for quite a while...  And I'm afraid, you just lost the > :> argument. > :>F > :> Jesus, what is it with you guys?  (That is, HP+Cpaq et al.)  As aG > :> customer, I'd kinda expect you to jump at the chance to prove your  > :> product performs well.    >  > I >   Running benchmarks is a significant expensive for any vendor, and the H >   larger and more complex the benchmark, the higher the costs.  I haveJ >   been peripherally involved -- pun entirely intended -- in a very smallH >   number of these efforts, and the scale of the boxes and the hardwareF >   and the effort involved in benchmarketeering is eye-opening.  (I'dD >   certainly like to have part of the typical benchmarking hardware@ >   available to speed the OpenVMS system builds, for instance.) >   > 	Pardon my naivete... things you are probably well aware of...  ; 	Are you currently using a shadowed RamDisk to perform your  	builds?  A 	Reason I ask, is there are probably several low-cost (relatively ; 	speaking of course) ways to speed up builds.  For example, D 	in a former existence I drastically reduced our VAX build by using  	Gerard Newman's RAMDISK:   = http://www.decus.org/libcatalog/document_html/vs0185_135.html   < 	Today I suppose XFC would help but.. since much of the file? 	patterns are smaller and numerous I would guess that a RamDisk  	would do better.   < 	Just out of curiosity, can you tell us what your bottleneck 	is on your builds?    				Rob    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:20:31 +0000 (UTC) 5 From: "John Wallace" <johnwallace4@yahoo.dotco.dotuk> " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link0 Message-ID: <b4kd9e$o13$1@sparta.btinternet.com>  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message F news:rdeininger-0703032112040001@user-105n97s.dialup.mindspring.com...L > In article <01KT8JASQGB69FQH4P@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig- > <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:  >  > K > >Your enemies just have to do ONE THING to sabotage your dreams entirely, I > >even if you produce some "commitments" from HP: bring in a witness who J > >states "yeah, right, these same guys told me a few years ago that NT onD > >ALPHA was the future; we invested millions and are now orphaned". > I > I seriously doubt any customer ever "invested millions" in NT on Alpha.  > K > Unless you mean millions of Quatloos.  And we know 100 Quatloos won't buy 7 > you much, not even a working email client on Windows.   J Then you or I may be misinformed. At least one major UK corporate customerK allegedly bought (or was planning to buy) a big GS-series box to run SAP on I NT. Why NT? Why SAP? Why SAP on NT on GS-series? Beats me. Presumably SAP , give good golf (or whatever) at board level.   regards  john   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 07:07:45 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)" Subject: Re: Carly's feedback linkL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1103030707450001@user-105n89j.dialup.mindspring.com>  ? In article <b4kd9e$o13$1@sparta.btinternet.com>, "John Wallace" ' <johnwallace4@yahoo.dotco.dotuk> wrote:     K >Then you or I may be misinformed. At least one major UK corporate customer L >allegedly bought (or was planning to buy) a big GS-series box to run SAP on >NT.   Very sad, if true.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:57:43 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> Q Subject: Re: Could HP manage this with former VMS customers if they really tried? H Message-ID: <Xakba.88828$em1.74983@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  2 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageF news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D9E0C@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcor p.net... >John,  F >To put a more down to earth picture on this - I wonder what the folks in0 >former PWC and Rational feel about all of this?  5 >http://news.com.com/2100-1001-990471.html?tag=fd_top ' >"IBM trims jobs in software, services"      Kerry,  # Let's not try changing the subject.   B The original point and question was that IBM has taken significantE steps to win back former customers of IBM, PWC, and IBM/PWC combined, B and would HP make similar efforts to try and bring back former VMS customers into the fold.  ? Many of the former VMS customers are by now on their 2nd or 3rd A migrations, from VMS to Slowlaris to Windows to Linux, in varying D combinations and permutations. Perhaps it's time to dust off the oldE DEC customer lists and try presenting a value proposition argument to  those that have left the fold.  C Too bad Mr. Roger's isn't with us anymore....he'd have made a great E VMS spokesman... "Can you say reliable? Sure, I knew that you could."    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:46:41 -0600  From: brandon@dalsemi.com 6 Subject: DECnet SERVICE CIRCUIT for multiple e-devices1 Message-ID: <03031111464186@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   ? I have three nodes in a cluster (VMS V7.2-1) running DECnet IV.   + Two nodes have an ethernet device of EWA-0. / The third node has an ethernet device of EWA-1.   O I want to share the NETNODE_REMOTE database, however the differences of the two M ethernet devices make that not possible.  Is this a correct statement or am I . missing somthing?  Is there a way around this?  ' I want to do this on all three servers:   F $ define /system /exec NETNODE_REMOTE CLUSTER$FILES:NETNODE_REMOTE.DAT  + However, the nodes have different circuits:    NODE1    EWA-1             on NODE2    EWA-0             on NODE3    EWA-0             on  + Using the DCL commands will muck things up:   ' NCP> SET NODE nodename ADDRESS address  )          SERVICE CIRCUIT ethernet-device  +          HARDWARE ADDRESS ethernet-address  %          LOAD FILE file specification    Any ideas how to overcome this?   " No plans to upgrade to DECnet/OSI.   John Brandon VMS Systems Administrator  Dallas Semiconductor john.brandon@dalsemi.com 972.371.4172 wk  972.371.4003 fx    ------------------------------   Date: 11 MAR 2003 15:36:23 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) Subject: Re: DHCP on WE1. 6 Message-ID: <11MAR03.15362352@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  H In a previous article, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:  J ->> with a multi-homed host. Unfortunately there's no way to tell the DHCP) ->> server to use a particular interface.  ->  P ->Isn't that implicit ? When you define the DHCP server's IP address ranges, youK ->specify the IP address of the server, the subnet, and the IP_ranges to be M ->assigned. Wouldn't that implicitly have the DHCP server declare a socket on N ->the IP address specify, and tCPIP services they know that this IP address isI ->served by a specific interface which itself goes out through a specific  ->ethernet port ?   D Not what I observed. It would listen on the first interface it foundH (WE0 with address 192.168.x.y). When a request came in from a client on E the network bound to the other interface (WE1 on 144.92.a.b) it would D produce the "Network not administered by server". Both networks were@ overlaid on the same "wire" (not a recommended practice). If theF interfaces were swapped (WE0 was on 144.92.a.b) then things were fine.   --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison 7 --                karcher.nomorespam@waisman.wisc.edu      ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:23:21 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: DHCP on WE1. / Message-ID: <3E6E1B82.4C003493@vl.videotron.ca>    Carl Karcher wrote: F > Not what I observed. It would listen on the first interface it foundI > (WE0 with address 192.168.x.y). When a request came in from a client on G > the network bound to the other interface (WE1 on 144.92.a.b) it would 3 > produce the "Network not administered by server".   N Did you define 2 IP address ranges in the Server Tab of the DHCP GUI ? Did you% define 2 subnets in the subnets tab ?    ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 11 Mar 03 12:47:30 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Y Subject: Re: ECC (was IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly	vs. IBM  monopo + Message-ID: <b4koij$fne$4@bob.news.rcn.net>   : In article <pan.2003.02.20.17.02.30.65664@nospam.invalid>,.    "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:6 >On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:42:03 +0000, CBFalconer wrote: >  >> "J. Clarke" wrote: < >>> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:57:32 -0500, Julian Thomas wrote:( >>> > J. Clarke <nospam1@nospam.invalid> >>> . >>> > may have used oatmeal boxes, old string,F >>> > and new, used, and recycled electrons to say (at least in part): >>> > H >>> >> Whether a PC has ECC or not is buyer's choice.  Nearly all serverE >>> >> and workstation class machines can support it if the purchaser E >>> >> chooses to put in the appropriate RAM modules.  Some "desktop" E >>> >> and consumer machines can support it as well.  The machine I'm D >>> >> using right now has ECC "from the CPU cache out to memory and >>> >> back again" >>> > E >>> > These days there are very few motherboards for Thunderbird that F >>> > offer ECC. Epox 8k7a seems to be almost the only one, and that's >>> > not widely available.  >>> D >>> Any of the 762 boards will support ECC.  The 761 chipset has theE >>> necessary support however vendors seem to not enable it.  Trouble D >>> with AMD is that most of the vendors are targetting the consumerB >>> market, not the workstation/server market, and in the consumerD >>> market for those who even know that ECC exists, it is consideredC >>> to be undesirable because there is an infinitesimal performance 7 >>> penalty that might cost a tenth of an FPS in Quake.  >>  D >> And also the 'saving' of approximately 10% of the memory cost, toE >> be repaid many times over the first time something is destroyed by  >> any memory failures.  > J >Sometimes.  But remember, some of these are the folks who run RAID 1 and 	 shell out K >700 bucks for a Vapochill or Prometeia phase-change cooler in the hopes of  >running their P4 at 3.5 GHz.   = My brain has spazzed.  I read this and immediately thought of ) very expensive moon cheese.  Sorry, John.    /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:50:19 -0500 * From: "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid>Y Subject: Re: ECC (was IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM  monopo ; Message-ID: <pan.2003.03.11.17.50.16.969738@nospam.invalid>   7 On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 06:13:22 +0000, Brian Inglis wrote:   C > On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 12:15:53 -0500 in alt.folklore.computers, "J. ) > Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:  > 7 >>On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:42:03 +0000, CBFalconer wrote:  >> >>> "J. Clarke" wrote:= >>>> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:57:32 -0500, Julian Thomas wrote: ) >>>> > J. Clarke <nospam1@nospam.invalid>  >>>>  / >>>> > may have used oatmeal boxes, old string, G >>>> > and new, used, and recycled electrons to say (at least in part):  >>>> >I >>>> >> Whether a PC has ECC or not is buyer's choice.  Nearly all server F >>>> >> and workstation class machines can support it if the purchaserF >>>> >> chooses to put in the appropriate RAM modules.  Some "desktop"F >>>> >> and consumer machines can support it as well.  The machine I'mE >>>> >> using right now has ECC "from the CPU cache out to memory and  >>>> >> back again"  >>>> >F >>>> > These days there are very few motherboards for Thunderbird thatG >>>> > offer ECC. Epox 8k7a seems to be almost the only one, and that's  >>>> > not widely available. >>>>  E >>>> Any of the 762 boards will support ECC.  The 761 chipset has the F >>>> necessary support however vendors seem to not enable it.  TroubleE >>>> with AMD is that most of the vendors are targetting the consumer C >>>> market, not the workstation/server market, and in the consumer E >>>> market for those who even know that ECC exists, it is considered D >>>> to be undesirable because there is an infinitesimal performance8 >>>> penalty that might cost a tenth of an FPS in Quake. >>> E >>> And also the 'saving' of approximately 10% of the memory cost, to F >>> be repaid many times over the first time something is destroyed by >>> any memory failures. >>T >>Sometimes.  But remember, some of these are the folks who run RAID 1 and shell outL >>700 bucks for a Vapochill or Prometeia phase-change cooler in the hopes of >>running their P4 at 3.5 GHz. > A > And what effect does the extra speed have on the on-chip cache? A > Is the non-trivial benchmark performance increase anything like  > the cycle speed increase?   G It appears to be negligible in most cases.  I've not tried this sort of J experiment myself--for some reason I find the overclocking culture of more" interest than I do the technology.  ; > Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada    --   --John- Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net # (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 07:45:23 -0600B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? 3 Message-ID: <6UM5FODgUVZR@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <b096a4ee.0303051542.1cb08c26@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > / >> > Do you like having to wait for a second or H >> > two for the display to settle down when you reach either end of the( >> > buffer, wondering what is going on? >> >   >>  F >> I think I understand what's annoying you here. Are you holding downF >> the up/down arrow (or Prev/Next Screen) and then getting annoyed byC >> the pause caused by the flashing message before you can continue  >> typing ?  > F > Nope. If I am in the middle of the file, and I am scrolling upwards,A > pressing the next/prev screen key at about 2.5 to 3 Hz, when it H > reaches the top, the cursor is still not at the top. The cursor has toG > wait for the message at the bottom of the screen to flash "Attempt to B > move past the beginning of buffer AEFL.COM". First it appears inH > reverse video, then normal video, and then finally my cursor is placedH > at the top of the screen. Every time this happens my reaction is "WhatH > the...? What is going on? ... Oh, I reached the top of the buffer. WhyF > does it do that?" I just can't get used to it. I can't stay on guardF > for it all the time. I'm editing. I have my work in mind. I have theA > pattern that I am looking for in mind. This is just yet another D > distraction that slows me down and makes me wait for nothing. WithF > EDT, I get the message, it stays in reverse video, and the cursor isD > placed immediately on the first line. It takes about 0.00 seconds.2 > That's the way to do it. No BS. It just does it. >   D I think that you will find that's what I said above. Did you try theE statements below ? If so, did you find any problems with using them ?   K Note that the messages will still display; but you should not get the pause  caused by the flashing.   6 >> If so, then try the following in your eve$init.eve: >>  $ >> tpu set(message_action_level, 0);& >> tpu set(message_action_type, none); >>  O >> WARNING: I have tested these for all of 2 minutes; I've just looked them up.  >>  J >> Note that they will apply to all messages of the specified (or greater)# >> severity; see the documentation.  >>     Simon.   --  B Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       L VMS advocate: One who makes a Mac advocate look like a beginner at advocacy.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:10:48 +0100 6 From: Horst Drechsel <ai05@sternwarte.uni-erlangen.de>2 Subject: environment variables lost on AlphaPC 164= Message-ID: <00A1CB68.DC7CE149.12@sternwarte.uni-erlangen.de>   
    Hi all,  F    we are a university institute in Germany running an OpenVMS clusterF for more than a decade (originally MicroVAX 3300 server + VAXstations,K now an XP1000 AXP alpha server plus various alpha clients under VMS 7.2-1).   J    Recently one of our clients, a DIGITAL AlphaPC 164 500 MHz (256 MB RAM)  !             DECchip (tm) 21164A-2 .             DECchip (tm) 21172 CIA ASIC Pass 3               SRM Console V4.8-1             VMS PALcode V1.19-9              OSF PALcode V1.21-8   F had a power supply crash. We were not able to replace the power supplyB with an original one, so used an ATX standard PC power supply withD the wiring redone such that the front panel power switch can be usedG for Power on/off (just as you described it for your self-built system). G We could then boot the system again and were fully operational. Shortly C later, occasionally the processor cooling fan became very noisy and D we decided to exchange it as well before returning the node into ourG cluster. We exchanged it with a standard PC processor fan, which fitted F in and was running, but apparently its return signal was wrong so thatE we were not able to reboot, because the main board wasn't functioning @ without the right fan. We know that now, but first were worryingB about a more severe damage, and were trying all kinds of things toD get the system back running (changed monitor, removed all PCI cards,D and maybe more important, switched off power and removed the onboardC 3V-battery for one night). We then replaced the new fan against the = original one (which was suddenly running smoothly again ...).   ?    But now there is no way of rebooting. Apparently some of the 7 environment variables were lost due to the power break.   F    When switching on the system we get a blue background on the screenE without any output, until I hit any key, which returns the >>> prompt B (the usual initial self tests starting with eA eB e9 e8 e7 ... >>>D are not running or at least not visible). I think the reason is that6 the CONSOLE variable is defaulted to SERIAL. So I do aF SET CONSOLE GRAPHICS, and when resetting the system, the usual startupI self tests are now running and visible. But still there's no way to boot. H The node was booting via network adapter EWA0 (DE500-AA, DECchip 21041),, which is now unknown to the system. If I say      >>>SHOW EW*  1 output is empty, so no environment variables like @ EWA0_MODE (FastFD), and about 20 more starting with EWA0_... are defined.   The BOOT_DEV is set to:       >>>SHOW BOOT_DEV D                       "ew*0.0.0.9.0"     (the DE500 sits in Slot 09)  # If I try to define it manually with   !    >>>SET BOOT_DEV EWA0.0.0.9.0      it returns an error:  C                       "boot_dev protected from attempted operation"   * so I can't change it, and if I simply try:  
    >>>BOOT   it says:3                       "(boot EW*0.0.0.9.0 -flags 0) 3                        failed to open EW*0.0.0.9.0" "                                  |  	 If I try:       >>>BOOT EWA0    I get the following:  -                       "device EWA0 is invalid M                        usage is boot <device> [-file <file>][-flags <flags>]"   = On console level I can use all the commands listed when doing   
    >>>help   When saying       >>>ls  F I get a listing of many files, among which there are files named after built-in devices:    three SCSI disks: "                    dka0.0.0.1000.0$                    dka100.1.0.1000.0                    dkb0.0.0.7.0   ! a CD-ROM           dkb400.4.0.7.0    and a floppy       dva0.0.0.0.1   N but there are no files connected with the two SCSI controllers pka0.7.0.1000.0? and pkb0.7.0.7.0 and with the EWA0 network controller, which is : possibly necessary to make the device known to the system.  I    What I have also tried is to set all environment variables manually by L comparison with a twin system in our cluster, which was also not successful,E probably because I was not able to set the BOOT_DEV variable to EWA0.   O    Another try was to reload the firmware from a floppy, which did successfully < run the usual way, but did not cause any change in behavior.  L    Maybe someone knows how to proceed when setting up such a system from theN beginning? I would be glad about any advice. We don't have any official CompaqQ support any more, and the company from which we bought the computer doesn't exist  any more ...        Many thanks in advance,  
         Horst      --M  **************************************************************************** )   Horst Drechsel                          L   Dr. Remeis Observatory                 drechsel@sternwarte.uni-erlangen.deL   Astronomical Institute                             Phone: +49-951-95222-15L   University Erlangen-Nuernberg                        Fax: +49-951-95222-22*   Sternwartstr.7, D-96049 Bamberg, GermanyM  ****************************************************************************    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 07:28:07 -0600B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)K Subject: Re: Ideas for implementing fork() on VMS ?, was: Re: fork() on VMS 3 Message-ID: <NJANgTgRC8eO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <1ufb6vgepgj6medfoerei07vkg4rrian2p@4ax.com>, P.Lj <plj@NOSPAMbyron.ext.telia.se> writes: > On 4 Mar 2003 06:29:49 -0600, E > clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote:  > L >>Does anybody have _any_ ideas about how to implement fork() on current VMS- >>versions, ignoring any performance issues ?  >> >>Simon. > 6 > Isn't there a vfork() in Porting-Library (jackets) ? >  > /P.Lj  >   F Thanks to everyone for their comments, including the various pointers.  5 The reason I was asking in case anyone is interested:   D A while back I had a quick look at what would be involved in doing aG Cygwin for VMS. It didn't take long to realise just how _big_ a project 5 this would be, and hence I moved onto other projects.   G It has left me interested however in seeing how those Unix capabilities H which are not present in VMS could be implemented in some fashion, hence the interest in fork().    Simon.   --  B Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       L VMS advocate: One who makes a Mac advocate look like a beginner at advocacy.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 09:10:33 -0500 + From: "Rick Barry" <barry@star.zko.dec.com> ( Subject: Re: LDAP authentication in CSWS. Message-ID: <3e6def7d$1_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  E "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" <Chris.Barratt@fmc.sa.gov.au> wrote in message J news:07103702F27FD411ACA30000F8085452044FF2D9@sagemshs001.fmc.sa.gov.au...I > In his highly useful book on VMS webservers, Alan Winston mentions that G > "CSWS Engineering has an LDAP authorization module working in the lab  now".  > H > Does anyone have any information on when this might become available ? > 	 > Thanks,  > Chris Barratt  >   I Our Apache 2.0 version will include the LDAP module that comes as part of L Apache 2.0. That module, mod_auth_ldap, is based on Dave Carrigan's originalL Apache 1.3 auth_ldap code. The Apache 2.0 release is scheduled for mid-year.H We may also include the auth_ldap module in our next Apache 1.3 release.  K The LDAP module that we built and tested in the lab was mod_ldap which will G also be available for Apache 2.0 from the user community, but not as an " "official" Apache 2.0 sub-project.  K If you want to build the Apache 1.3 mod_ldap module we tested, you can pull K the sources from http://kie.berkeley.edu/people/jmorrow/mod_ldap/ . The VMS K build procedure is (OpenVMS 7.3-1 is required for the URL LDAP interfaces):   # $ cc/lis=mod_ldap/object=mod_ldap -   /define=eapi -   /prefix=all -)  /include=(apache$common:[src.include], - ?  apache$common[src.os.openvms],sys$library:sys$starlet_c.tlb) -   mod_ldap.c  $!0 $ link/share/map/full mod_ldap,sys$input:/option !  ! Linker options !  GSMATCH=LEQUAL,1,0  SYMBOL_VECTOR=(LDAP_MODULE=DATA)  ! Assumes this logical is setup. !  APACHE$HTTPD_SHR/SHARE $! $ exit  J Here's more information about the various LDAP authentication modules that have grown around Apache.   # LDAP Authentication for Apache 2.0:   H Apache 2.0 "httpd-ldap" sub-project (not included in standard Apache 2.0L distribution) contains mod_auth_ldap and mod_ldap components for Apache 2.0.J This code is based on Dave Carrigan's original auth_ldap module for Apache 1.3.  
 mod_auth_ldap   9  Authentication module to authenticate HTTP clients using #  user entries in an LDAP directory.    mod_ldap  8  Provides LDAP connection pooling and result caching for  other Apache LDAP modules.    Source code:  .  http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/httpd-ldap/   Documentation:  	  mod_ldap   3  http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/mod/mod_ldap.html     mod_auth_ldap  8  http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/mod/mod_auth_ldap.html  # LDAP Authentication for Apache 1.3:   8  mod_auth_ldap, auth_ldap, mod_authz_ldap, mod_ldap, and@  mod_ldapauth are different flavors of LDAP-based authentication#  that have grown around Apache 1.3.   :  mod_auth_ldap and mod_ldap are based on the same code and;  are similar in functionality and directives. mod_auth_ldap :  by Jeff Morrow and Lyonel Vincent is the one we have been  testing with Apache.   <  mod_ldap_auth is similar to mod_auth_ldap and mod_ldap, but  not based on the same code.  =  auth_ldap is the module chosen for the Apache 2.0 httpd-ldap ?  sub-project. It supports TLS and LDAP connection caching which   the others do not.   E  mod_authz_ldap integrates LDAP and certificate-based authentication.   
  Pointers:    mod_auth_ldap (4)  G  http://www.muquit.com/muquit/software/mod_auth_ldap/mod_auth_ldap.html )   Muhammad A Muquit, V2.4, April 14, 2001e2   Will be ported to Apache 2.0 (not yet available)B  http://www.fccc.edu/users/muquit/mod_auth_ldap/mod_auth_ldap.html(   Muhammas A Muquit, V1.1, July 18, 1999<  http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/orb/projects/mod_auth_ldap.c*   Norman Richards, V1.0, February 15, 1998  http://nona.net/software/ldap/n-   Alexander Mayrhofer, V0.5.1, April 15, 2000l"   Will not be ported to Apache 2.0  
  auth_ldap  "  http://www.rudedog.org/auth_ldap/%   Dave Carrigan, V1.6.0, July 4, 2001 6   *** This is the httpd-ldap module for Apache 2.0 ***    mod_authz_ldape    http://authzldap.othello.ch/o(   Andreas Mueller, V0.19, November, 2001  
  mod_ldap (2)   1  http://kie.berkeley.edu/people/jmorrow/mod_ldap/ 1   Jeff Morrow and Lyonel Vincent, V1.8, May, 2000a5   This is the LDAP module we have running with Apache 6  http://hpwww.ec-lyon.fr/~vincent/apache/mod_ldap.html)   Lyonel Vincent, V1.0, February 15, 1998   
  mod_ldapauth   /  http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~pruyss/mod_LDAPauth/ &   Piet Ruyssinck, V1.2, April 13, 1999   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Mar 2003 07:47:52 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)r9 Subject: Re: Local port number for an incoming connectiont0 Message-ID: <b4k4b8$4ar$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  p In article <3e6cbb86$0$26862$626a54ce@news.free.fr>, "Bernard Giroud" <bernard.giroud@creditlyonnais.ch> writes:< >I need to get the local port used by an inbound connection;6 >it seems that a qio call with a IO$_SENSEMODE with p3= >set should do the trick. However when I try I get a SSFAIL ?e >o' >Any idea or code fragment that works ?i   Please post your code-fragment.[   Regards,    Christoph Gartmanna  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |H +------------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html -------------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:55:57 +0100k9 From: "Bernard Giroud" <bernard.giroud@creditlyonnais.ch> 9 Subject: Re: Local port number for an incoming connectionb3 Message-ID: <3e6dc167$0$7889$626a54ce@news.free.fr>e   Found !!  ! Thanks for your answer Christoph.s  9 The trick was IO$_TTY_PORT_BUFIO and IO$M_TN_SENSEMODE...t  ' Here is the code for those interested :C    IDENTIFICATION DIVISION.e&  PROGRAM-ID.                 SG999PRE.  ENVIRONMENT DIVISION.  CONFIGURATION SECTION.i  INPUT-OUTPUT SECTION.  DATA DIVISION.a  FILE SECTION.    WORKING-STORAGE SECTION.o&   01  ABI-STAT PIC S9(9) COMP VALUE 1.   01  QIOFUNC  PIC S9(9) COMP.   01  W-NPORT  PIC S9(9) COMP.   01  W-P3.a       05 SIN-LEN PIC X.d       05 SIN-FAMILY PIC X.#       05 SIN-PORT   PIC S9(4) COMP.H#       05 SIN-ADDR   PIC S9(9) COMP.P   01  W-CHANNEL PIC S9(4) COMP.aD   01  KIO$_TTY_PORT      PIC S9(9) COMP VALUE EXTERNAL IO$_TTY_PORT.K   01  KIO$_TTY_PORT_BUFIO PIC S9(9) COMP VALUE EXTERNAL IO$_TTY_PORT_BUFIO.,4   01  KIO$M_TN_SENSEMODE PIC S9(9) COMP VALUE 16384.   01  IOSBS.&       05 IOSB OCCURS 2 PIC S9(9) COMP.   01  MAP_PORT_ITLST.        05 FILLER. *        Local address itema%          10 PIC S9(4) COMP VALUE 128.i$          10 PIC S9(4) COMP VALUE 11.)          10 POINTER VALUE REFERENCE W-P3.i/          10 MAP-NEFFLEN PIC S9(9) COMP VALUE 0.I       05 POINTER VALUE 0.u$  PROCEDURE DIVISION GIVING ABI-STAT.  A-INITIALISATION SECTION.  A10. 0      CALL "SYS$ASSIGN" USING BY DESCRIPTOR "TT:"3                              BY REFERENCE W-CHANNELn,                              OMITTED OMITTED&                        GIVING ABI-STAT,      IF ABI-STAT IS FAILURE GO TO F01 END-IF  ?      COMPUTE QIOFUNC = KIO$_TTY_PORT_BUFIO + KIO$M_TN_SENSEMODEe  7      CALL "SYS$QIOW" USING BY VALUE 0 W-CHANNEL QIOFUNCt<                            BY REFERENCE IOSB(1) BY VALUE 0 0+                            BY VALUE 0 0 0 0V7                            BY REFERENCE  MAP_PORT_ITLST-%                            BY VALUE 0-&                        GIVING ABI-STAT,      IF ABI-STAT IS FAILURE GO TO F01 END-IFD      IF IOSB(1) IS FAILURE MOVE IOSB(1) TO ABI-STAT GO TO F01 END-IF  8      CALL "ntohs" USING BY VALUE SIN-PORT GIVING W-NPORT      DISPLAY "PORT:" W-NPORT      .  F01.r      STOP RUN.    / Results after doing a: telnet nickel/port=30001j   NICKEL::BG>run/nodeb sg999prep PORT:     30001  NICKEL::BG>f    J "Christoph Gartmann" <gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de> a crit dans le message de+ news: b4k4b8$4ar$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de...1G > In article <3e6cbb86$0$26862$626a54ce@news.free.fr>, "Bernard Giroud"k* <bernard.giroud@creditlyonnais.ch> writes:> > >I need to get the local port used by an inbound connection;8 > >it seems that a qio call with a IO$_SENSEMODE with p3? > >set should do the trick. However when I try I get a SSFAIL ?. > >.) > >Any idea or code fragment that works ?S >s! > Please post your code-fragment.r > 
 > Regards, >    Christoph Gartmanni >cJ > -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+J > | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |J > | Immunbiologie                                                        |J > | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |J > | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |J > +------------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html -------------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:20:35 -0000 - From: "Steve Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com>y Subject: Login timeouts.E Message-ID: <91947A84607D9D48B8E674A5FAB54DA63CAE66@tahiti.tinuk.com>    Hi all,l   Setup;     $ tcpip show version  ?   Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.1 - ECO 3t3   on a AlphaServer 1000A 5/300 running OpenVMS V7.3s   Relevant [?] SYSGEN parameters;e   mc sysgen show/lgi     Parameters in use: ActiverG Parameter Name           Current    Default     Min.      Max.     Unitc DynamiclG --------------           -------    -------    -------   -------   ----a -------wA LGI_BRK_TERM                    0          1         0          1- Boolean    DA LGI_BRK_DISUSER                 0          0         0          1r Boolean    DA LGI_PWD_TMO                    30         30         0        255a Seconds    DG LGI_RETRY_LIM                   0          3         0        255 Triest DeA LGI_RETRY_TMO                   2         20         2        255) Seconds    DA LGI_BRK_LIM                     1          5         1        255. Failures   DA LGI_BRK_TMO                     0        300         0    5184000  Seconds    DA LGI_HID_TIM                     0        300         0 1261440000  Seconds    DG LGI_CALLOUTS                    0          0         0        255 Countp De    E According to the above, logins should get 30 seconds before they timedE out. It appears they time out after 18 seconds [this happens on otheri5 nodes set up the 'same' as this] and I can't see why.   = Users connect via TELNET, so is there some setting/logical inyH TCPIP/TELNET that I need to check, eg TELNET_CONNECT_TIMEOUT or similar?  H If anyone can point me to anything else which might have a bearing, much appreciated.   Cheers   Steve Spires Technical Consultant Torex Health [T] +44 (0) 1295 274200  [F] +44 (0) 1295 275131u
 www.torex.comf   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:28:37 -0000l- From: "Steve Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com>  Subject: RE: Login timeouts.E Message-ID: <91947A84607D9D48B8E674A5FAB54DA685443A@tahiti.tinuk.com>V  # BTW, some additional information...   C I tried it connecting with DECNET [ $ SET HOST 0 ] and it times outy after a few seconds, so...   Steve Spires Technical Consultant Torex Health [T] +44 (0) 1295 274200s [F] +44 (0) 1295 275131l
 www.torex.comf   >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Steve Spires=20o >>Sent: 11 March 2003 18:21r >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  >>Subject: Login timeouts. >> >>	 >>Hi all,s >> >>Setup; >> >> >>$ tcpip show version >>A >>  Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.1 - ECO 3e5 >>  on a AlphaServer 1000A 5/300 running OpenVMS V7.3s >>! >>Relevant [?] SYSGEN parameters;c >> >>mc sysgen show/lgi >> >> >>Parameters in use: Activel> >>Parameter Name           Current    Default     Min.     =20 >>Max.     Unit0	 >>DynamicU= >>--------------           -------    -------    -------  =20u >>-------   ----	 >>-------iC >>LGI_BRK_TERM                    0          1         0          1n >>Boolean    DC >>LGI_BRK_DISUSER                 0          0         0          1u >>Boolean    DC >>LGI_PWD_TMO                    30         30         0        255e >>Seconds    DB >>LGI_RETRY_LIM                   0          3         0       =20 >>255 Triesm >>DuC >>LGI_RETRY_TMO                   2         20         2        255f >>Seconds    DC >>LGI_BRK_LIM                     1          5         1        255g >>Failures   DC >>LGI_BRK_TMO                     0        300         0    5184000n >>Seconds    DC >>LGI_HID_TIM                     0        300         0 1261440000v >>Seconds    DB >>LGI_CALLOUTS                    0          0         0       =20 >>255 Counta >>D  >> >>@ >>According to the above, logins should get 30 seconds before=20= >>they time out. It appears they time out after 18 seconds=20 B >>[this happens on other nodes set up the 'same' as this] and I=20 >>can't see why. >>B >>Users connect via TELNET, so is there some setting/logical in=20A >>TCPIP/TELNET that I need to check, eg TELNET_CONNECT_TIMEOUT=20n
 >>or similar?- >>? >>If anyone can point me to anything else which might have a=20d >>bearing, much appreciated. >> >>Cheers >> >>Steve Spires >>Technical Consultant >>Torex Health >>[T] +44 (0) 1295 2742009 >>[F] +44 (0) 1295 275131  >>www.torex.come >> >> >>   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:22:43 -0500 9 From: Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com> E Subject: Re: Maximum Record Size Error (BUCKET - CLUSTER SIZE detour)g/ Message-ID: <3E6DFF43.EA2D16D6@eps.zko.dec.com>f   >.H > Why in the world would you use a Stripe Set for an Indexed file? SinceD > the Bucket size is usually many times smaller than a chunk size or > maximum transfer size.  3 Correct. I did not say it made any practical sense.16 It just worked for me under exceptional circumstances.m The reason it worked in one experiment was a slow backend (as I indicated, see your include below) running atcr 5mb/sec ( = 10 blocks/millisecond) and used linear reads where the drive itself did read-aheads so it avoided spin	 and seek.e  T >Stripe sets are primarily for large size IOs (sorts and sequential file downloads).  t I do use and recommend stripset for Indexed files in general, just as a brute-force method to spread the IO load ove	 spindles.Mr It is just too hard to balance your IOs manually. Given the choice between  3 large (GB's) random accessed indexedn files each on their own disk, or striping (raid-0+1 of course) those disks, I'd recommend striping every time.  p Sequential file loads acutally work relatively well on a single drive, up the the MB/sec for that singl drive of course  H > Once upon a time, an indexed file could be broken by Area to differentD > Volumes of Bound Volume set.  This was supposed to break up the IO > across the Volumes.   Y That is still available and well worth your consideration. It is a bear to manage though.ek I have made setup's with 'Solid State' disks to hold the index areas of a file, and regular disks the data.   t I have even made setups with DECram disks to hold the index, but of course only for use in  moth-end style batch jobq where the master file was converted into this 'fast' multi-volume file (with fresh bucket sizes and keys just forfi the month-end). Run job, re-convert back out to new productions and to a reporting copy (with more keys).h  t A simple usage which I would encourage for folks who want to get started here plays on spreading the IO and locality
 of reference.Iq Let's say you have 2 large (groups of) randomly accessed indexed files each on their own disks. I see this often:Sr 'branch-a' and 'branch-b' each with the same set of files, but with different contents based on a location perhaps2 and each in their own directory on their own disk.q Now, put those disks in a MULTI-DISK VOLUME and assign data for branch-a to rvn-1 and index areas for branch-a toE rvn-2Tn For branch-b assign the data to rvn-2 and the index to rvn-1. In doing do, you will nicely spread your disk IO giving each branch a boost.   r For larger applications I'd just stripe the whole lot over a whole lot of spindels Just pute-force it. The new EVAA storage subsystems will give you that whether you like it or not!-  r (oops, I just noticed that one of my news readers had a bad email forward: hein_news at eps.zko.dec.com did not go anywhere. fixed.<  a more reliable mail for me is a simple hein_at_hp_dot_com)   Cheers,, Hein.e   >m
 > Daryl Jones. >er > Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<3E6CAEEF.C495FDE9@eps.zko.dec.com>... > > Bill Todd wrote: > > 9 > > > "hein" <hein_news@eps.zko.dec.com> wrote in message  > :dP > > The only time I have been able to measure the effect of clustersize was in a > > contrived experiment.oS > > I was playing with striped virtual disks on SWXCR controllers where there was aeR > > suggestion for very small chunk sizes (locked at 8KB for the initial releases)# > > and a relatively slow back-end.hO > > I wanted to test a large file convert and actually wanted each bucket to bei. > > served by 2 (or 3) disk, but not 3 (or 4).M > > So I wanted to aligned each bucket to start exactly on a controller chunkrS > > boundary and I wanted each bucket to be an exact mutliple (2 or 3) of the chunkrP > > size. This can be done by using a cluster size being a multiple of the chunkR > > size. An other tricky part is the mis-alignement that RMS causes by having theN > > prologue in area-0 (as Bill also wrote). I solved that by putting the root1 > > bucket in area 0 and the main data in area 1. P > > Anyway, with all those precautions in place a bucket size of 48 with a chunkC > > size of 16 (and any cluster size being a mutliple of 16) workedWP > > better than a cluster size of 50 or 55, but only marginally so and 63 workedT > > better still even though it would be severely 'fragemented' at the stripe level. > >9R > > Oh how I wished the max bucket size could have been a nice round 64, but alas.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 07:30:50 -0800- From: tony.alldis@dunnhumby.com (Tony Alldis)IE Subject: n-up Printing under OpenVMS 7.3 to HP LaserJet 4000 Printer.s= Message-ID: <c16c8d2e.0303110730.626a6ab3@posting.google.com>    Hi,   ' I wonder if anyone may be able to help.i  F We have a request from one of our users, to be able to print 4 * pagesA of normal text logfile output, onto a single page of A4 (n-up [ornF 4-up] printing, as its known) to an HP LaserJet 4000 TN printer via an OpenVMS V7.3 "Telnet" queue.  C I have taken a look at the DECPS documentation, but due to the fact C that the queue is using Telnet printing - it would not be supportedu via that route.:  E I thought it might be possible to setup a printer form that could usemD some embedded PCL commands to put the printer into the correct mode.  @ I've checked through the PCL5 documentation on the internet, butC believe the "n-up" printing function is a feature of PCL6, which ism< supported by the printer, but which I can find absolutely no documentation for!  D Would anyone know what the PCL commands would be to facilitate this,A or perhaps have a better suggestion for how this may be achieved?m   Many thanks for your help.   Tony A.b (UK)   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:49:14 +0100 (MET)a9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>o3 Subject: Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants>; Message-ID: <01KTEMNLCI649H1MPS@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>s  I > And yesterday, they even showed a bit warning actors that if they speak D > out against the war, they might lose jobs (as has happened to Sean< > Penn), or not get invideed to the academy awards etc etc.  > H > I read this as: The white house is concerned that the "liberal" actorsJ > might become a serious opposition, something thedemocrats have failed toA > do, so sending out those warnings that speaking out against the I > government is dangerous to your job would help silence the actors. They H > even said that ratings for West Wing have gone down since Martin SheenJ > spoke out. (omitting that it is normal for ratings to go down when it is > in re-runs). u > G > I applaud the actors for standing up and speaking out at a time whereoJ > everyone else is affraid to do so. It *SHOUDL* (bit isn't) make it clearD > to all americans that when a government calls some who opposes itsH > policies "unpatriotic", something very very wrong is happening. When aG > goverment treats an ally who *disagrees* with it as almost an ennemy,j > there is a serious problem.    Folks, take a look at this:   ;    http://www.sun-times.com/ebert/greatmovies/ctylight.html   E Some of Ebert's reviews are almost as good as the films themselves.  6 Another example is n  ?    http://www.sun-times.com/ebert/greatmovies/seventh_seal.htmle   and there are many more.  G Chaplin exemplified the "American Dream".  An immigrant (from England)  H from a poor family, he became world famous through his films.  He spent D the final years of his life in Switzerland.  Why?  Because the U.S. C blacklisted him in the McCarthy era.  The U.S. might have had real  . enemies then, but Chaplin was not one of them.  J > And when a government who pretends to be democratic is ready to overruleD > a democratic vote at the United Nations and illegally go to war toG > invade a country that has done nothing against the USA, then there ist" > something VERY VERY VERY wrong.   F What I think is really embarrassing is Dubya's "we are the good guys" F stance.  There are two problems with this.  One is his "if you're not G for us, you're against us".  The other is his going on about democracy  F etc but he himself only got elected via circumstances which, had they I happened elsewhere, would have the rest of the world crying out for U.N. hH observers for the next elections.  His brother is governor in the state I which swung the balance, and there are believable reports of Blacks (who aD probably vote more Democratic as a rule) being turned away from the H polls with dubious excuses.  Even if the Florida votes were OK, Al Gore D STILL got more of the popular vote.  Imagine if Milosovic had said: I We're going to institute democracy in Yugoslavia.  While Serbia only has oH x% of the population, it will get y% of the voting power, with y larger E than x.  In any case, the people won't elect the president, but will iG elect a commission of guys who will elect the president.  People would iC have said, rightly, who are you trying to fool?!  And even if Gore eB hadn't gotten more of the popular vote, Dubya would only have one G because the left-of-centre (for U.S. minds) was split between Gore and oE Nader.  Any mathematician will tell you that the jump from 1 to 2 is nG comparable to the jump from 2 to many.  A two-party system is not that  H much better than a 1-party system.  The ONLY truly democratic system is F proportional representation (which, as in Germany, does NOT mean that F there are no representatives from particular districts etc).  Murcans I usually say "look what proportional representation did to Germany in the eD Weimar Republic after WWI", which a) ignores the fact that the real G reason for Hitler being able to be successful at all was the fact that @F the Versailles treaty was too hard in Germany (reparations were to be I paid until 1985(!) and Germany didn't even start the war (it was started iH when a Serb nationalist assassinated an Austrian nobleman, and the U.S. I had an alliance with Serbia, though most historians concur that the real DE reason the U.S. entered the war was economic) and b) there are many,  G many countries in the world where proportional representation does not   lead to instable governments.I   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:46:17 -0500u From: G Everhart <ge@gce.com>e' Subject: re: re: national moratorium...u& Message-ID: <3E6E20E9.4070500@gce.com>  C John Smith (no email address listed) posted that Palestinians couldt- return far as he knew if they had not fought.g  J Doesn't make sense. You mean any Palestinians who didn't participate mightK return? How come they stayed in camps? Not, I suspect, from wanting to livea there.  H There were indeed some "federal lands" but there were also lots of landsF which "became" "federal lands" there, from what I've read, as a resultG of the acceptance of any evidence, however flimsy, of their having beeneD abandonned, or in the absence of strong documentation that the landsC were owned by Palestinians. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, thenJ Ottoman Empire was not particularly efficient at maintaining land records,D and the wars going on did nothing either to improve the integrity of written deeds and the like.t  F The gripe they have is real and cannot be argued away in this fashion.  J I acknowledged specifically that those who immigrated had also been robbedG and could not really go anywhere else, or believed this to be so (whichsJ amounts to the same thing). I don't know how many may have tried, but haveB heard of ships being turned away from France not that long before.  J That however has nothing to do with the Palestinians in question, who were
 also victims.b  H This was not a case of eminent domain. It was as much a land grab as anyI other where a government gets involved from what I have read of it. LegaleC writs were issued and so on, but the land was taken, often by being F "presumed" abandonned. Had there been compensation, the argument might
 be different.t  F I recall that some Jews in Germany in the 30s "sold" their possessionsD too, at grossly lower value, to buy escape or safety. Was that just?+ Would you want such sales to be recognized?   F I am deeply suspicious of eminent domain generally, and recognize thatF sometimes nations just take land. Consider A. Jackson in the matter ofC Indian land in western Georgia. But the fact that countries do thatjC does not make it right and does not change the fact that it creates. victims.  J That an area is occupied for N years does not create the kind of situationF adverse possession does. Adverse possession depends on the notion thatG the owner of the land acceded to the possession by another by not doingpD anything about it over an extended period when he might have legallyF challenged it. That doesn't apply, unless the people displaced had theE right to come back and retake possession. That was not the case here. C The period is btw usually 20 years. But the principle is irrelevant  to this situation.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 08:18:56 -0500u From: G Everhart <ge@gce.com>u) Subject: Re: national moratorium...threadh& Message-ID: <3E6DE240.8080306@gce.com>  M Someone posted that those Arabs who remained in 1948 were "live and let live"e folks and those who left not.e  M Seems to me this kind of ascription of motives does not hold water. Those who L left might just be those who disliked the use of live ammo in their area andK wanted to get themselves and their families away from the war. That happensnI all over the place, and has nothing to do with like or dislike of anyone.s  Q Those who had immigrated from Europe didn't have a similar choice on the whole...w> I suspect they had, or perceived they had, nowhere else to go.  O That they had been falsely told the land was unpeopled (and that others outsidegP the area had been told this) contributed to their immigration. It still does notO mean the poor sod who was farming an area his family had occupied for centurieseL (if not millenia) and who fled a war deserved or deserves to lose his familyI home. He has done nothing to injure anyone. When his home is taken and hetL is denied access to it, though, it is hardly surprising he wants it back andK that some such folks get eventually to the point of using force, seeing thec, local government is the agent of the takers.  K There were a lot of other poor sods who were more or less forced to move toeL Palestine, or felt they were, who had lost homes too, but their compensationN for this should have been/should be sought from those who took said homes, notJ from a group that they were involved in making victims. And the actions ofM other governments really have nothing to do with the case for these displacedgK Palestinians, as far as who got forced to emigrate from where. Those forced J to emigrate should be compensated by those who forced them, not some third$ group who happened to be in the way.  O How many of us, if there were enough shooting in our area, might move somewhere I else? How many, if we were camped out in motels somewhere far away, would A consider we had permanently abandonned our homes because of this?E   Glenn Everhart   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:13:17 GMTc# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>I) Subject: Re: national moratorium...thread J Message-ID: <xWnba.212463$UXa.190631@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  * "G Everhart" <ge@gce.com> wrote in message  news:3E6DE240.8080306@gce.com...E > Someone posted that those Arabs who remained in 1948 were "live and 	 let live"  > folks and those who left not.  > E > Seems to me this kind of ascription of motives does not hold water.]	 Those whonE > left might just be those who disliked the use of live ammo in their  area andE > wanted to get themselves and their families away from the war. Thate happensmC > all over the place, and has nothing to do with like or dislike of  anyone..  E To the best of my knowledge, I don't believe that any people desiring.E to move back after the shooting stopped in 1949 were denied the right.B or opportunity by the Israeli government unless they were known toE have actively participated in the fighting against Israel. Those thatlB move to avoid the shooting were allowed back to their homes/farms.  B The Israelis didn't want a shooting war in 1948, they wanted to beE left alone. They fought back once attacked. The only reason Israeli's F didn't leave the combat zone was where else did they have to go?. It'sC not likely they had relatives in Cairo, Amman, Damascus, Beruit, orm? Riyadh they could stay with temporarily, and even after the wartA immigration from Europe to the US and other western countries wascB still a hit-and-miss thing for Jews. You conveniently forgot about both those facts..      F > Those who had immigrated from Europe didn't have a similar choice on the whole...@ > I suspect they had, or perceived they had, nowhere else to go. >cB > That they had been falsely told the land was unpeopled (and that others outsideC > the area had been told this) contributed to their immigration. It  still does notC > mean the poor sod who was farming an area his family had occupiedn
 for centurieseC > (if not millenia) and who fled a war deserved or deserves to losel
 his familyD > home. He has done nothing to injure anyone. When his home is taken and heE > is denied access to it, though, it is hardly surprising he wants it* back andB > that some such folks get eventually to the point of using force,
 seeing the. > local government is the agent of the takers.  B Nobody took anybody else's land prior to the war in 1948/49 eitherE way, except maybe the British to punish Jews. Recall that the Britisha- were more than a little pro-Arab at the time.e  B In the US there is what is known as 'federal land'. In the BritishC Mandated Palestine there were equivalent lands. Post-partition, whogC owned that land? Who had the right to parcel that land out? I wouldaE submit that it was the right of the newly formed government of Israely9 that had the right to do what it wanted with those lands.f  E That some Arab lands were abandoned temporarily is unquestioned. ThatoE some was abandoned permanently is up for discussion. Was some of thatwF land then occupied by others? Possibly. But some land was also sold byE the Arab owners who left. I am not inimately familiar with the actualeC legal process that occured back then, but I am reasonably sure thatIA there was an outright land-grab either. See the last point at then bottom.o  F Government of all nations, at all levels - national, state, municipal,C regularly expropriate land for a variety of uses, roads, hospitals, C ports, railways, parks, housing. Do you deny governments everywhere  that right, or just in Israel?  ? The Arab League started a war of aggression (if you want to use-B today's terminology) in 1948 that was deliberate and co-ordinated.E Those nations lost territory and have not, except for Egypt, signed aSE peace treaty. Egypt got all its land back, except they didn't care toCF take Gaza back in the process - smart move on the part of Egypt, IMHO.      E > There were a lot of other poor sods who were more or less forced tol move toVA > Palestine, or felt they were, who had lost homes too, but their  compensationE > for this should have been/should be sought from those who took saidi
 homes, notA > from a group that they were involved in making victims. And thet
 actions ofE > other governments really have nothing to do with the case for these 	 displaced0F > Palestinians, as far as who got forced to emigrate from where. Those forcedF > to emigrate should be compensated by those who forced them, not some thirdn& > group who happened to be in the way.  D Agreed. But nobody forced them to leave. They were free to return to live in Israel.i      B > How many of us, if there were enough shooting in our area, might move somewhereE > else? How many, if we were camped out in motels somewhere far away,_ woulddC > consider we had permanently abandonned our homes because of this?u  B In English common law countries, there is what's known as 'writ ofF adverse possession's. In the middle east, who knows what laws existed.B Writ of Adverse Possession doesn't happen overnight, it takes many@ years. It's not like you leave for a year or even 5 years...it's& longer than that. Check with a lawyer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:29:48 +0100 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>; Subject: Re: newbie: connect to vms from win2k using decnetC6 Message-ID: <b4la7i$21pb1p$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>  / "arik" <riper56@hotmail.com> schreef in berichtt7 news:185469fe.0303091219.30123db1@posting.google.com...pH > well, this is what i need to do, but I dont know exactly how to do it.? > I from my searching I saw somethings that are not clear to meo( > what is PathWork, how does it help me? > can I do it without PathWork?t >d+ > I have no other option but to use decnet.  >A > thank you for your help.  G There is no way to get DECnet running on Windows 2000. W2k uses the MACdK address of an installed network interface for all kinds of purposes. One of K them is licensing. DECnet happens to ovewrite that MAC address with its ownaK and that means that you, as a Microsoft customer, are able to use that sameoJ license on a different system, provided that that system will use the sameJ DECnet address. So, no DECnet support for Windows 2000 and its successors.F As you probably noticed, running a Pathworks kit on W2k does not yield useful results.   J There is DECnet for NT but it is a port from a unix implementation (SCO ?)4 and is limited to 255 concurrent clients for shares.   Hans   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 04:47:34 -0800) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)p Subject: Re: Numeric usernames= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0303110447.6dd012eb@posting.google.com>c   "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" <Chris.Barratt@fmc.sa.gov.au> wrote in message news:<07103702F27FD411ACA30000F8085452044FF2D5@sagemshs001.fmc.sa.gov.au>... > Thanks to all who replied.J > I am not in favour of numeric usernames, but there is a chance we may be > forced into using them..L > From your replies, it would seem it can be done, but with some workarounds  > or unforseen problems likely. N > If I cannot avert the move to numeric usernames, I guess the next step is to" > try it out and see what happens.   Don't do it.  F We have had a similar need since the beginning of time, but don't giveE into it - UNI staff and student numbers. To my knowledge no system intF current use here uses a number alone as a "username", regardless of OS@ or anything (unless bit of software that appends the appropriateF character before making a query to our central authentication system).  < As an example, all staff are S1234567 and students Z1234567.  C It really is not going to make any issues with sorting/accounting.    G If I were you, I'd be asking some questions about why this really needse
 to happen.   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Mar 2003 15:31:44 GMT1 From: JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)i" Subject: Re: RE: Numeric usernames: Message-ID: <b4kvh0$9up$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>   In article <07103702F27FD411ACA30000F8085452044FF2D5@sagemshs001.fmc.sa.gov.au>, "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" <Chris.Barratt@fmc.sa.gov.au> writes::J > I am not in favour of numeric usernames, but there is a chance we may be > forced into using them.o  L I have this image of user 6 sending email to user 2, asking who user 1 is...      < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929- Ohio State University        |      Internet:gL 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:38:32 -0400C0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Numeric usernames/ Message-ID: <3E6DF4E4.19BD0891@vl.videotron.ca>n   "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" wrote:2N > If I cannot avert the move to numeric usernames, I guess the next step is to" > try it out and see what happens.  M Could you make a compromise and have all usernames begin with the same letter  ("A" for instance) ?  L Also, from a security point of view, if you restrict the character set to 10M digits only, you make it easier to use brute force to crack into your system.m\ Not that I would think it is a show stopper, but still something to take into consideration.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 10:18:13 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)s" Subject: Re: RE: Numeric usernames3 Message-ID: <ROYM2$rb43pd@eisner.encompasserve.org>f  n In article <b4kvh0$9up$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones) writes: > In article <07103702F27FD411ACA30000F8085452044FF2D5@sagemshs001.fmc.sa.gov.au>, "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" <Chris.Barratt@fmc.sa.gov.au> writes:MK >> I am not in favour of numeric usernames, but there is a chance we may be  >> forced into using them. > N > I have this image of user 6 sending email to user 2, asking who user 1 is...  @ Perhaps such a system seems silly from an educational viewpoint.% but consider a prison environment :-)U   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:40:47 GMTE1 From: "Barry in Indy" <barrymeindy@ameritech.net>O$ Subject: One version of a file ONLY.? Message-ID: <zcpba.6359$se1.3612112@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>L  @ Is there a way in VMS to specify that there is to be one version? of a file ONLY, meaning that the creation of a second file with > the same name would fail? We have an online system which is up8 most of the day. But even when it is running, if someone@ inadvertently copies, say, a set of test files to the production@ system, new versions of the files are created. What I am lookingA for is a simple way to avoid this problem. Of course, there would = also have to be a way to override this protection in order to  restore files intentionally.  
 Thank you,   BarryM   -- O
 Barry in Indy_   Knock me out to replyS   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 10:53:52 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)Y( Subject: Re: One version of a file ONLY.3 Message-ID: <r+qwtaSq$5Wf@eisner.encompasserve.org>C  s In article <zcpba.6359$se1.3612112@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>, "Barry in Indy" <barrymeindy@ameritech.net> writes:   B > Is there a way in VMS to specify that there is to be one versionA > of a file ONLY, meaning that the creation of a second file withR > the same name would fail?Y  2 Create the file with an explicit version of 32767.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 10:58:47 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ( Subject: Re: One version of a file ONLY.3 Message-ID: <rwFyaOq0Lepb@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  s In article <zcpba.6359$se1.3612112@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>, "Barry in Indy" <barrymeindy@ameritech.net> writes:@B > Is there a way in VMS to specify that there is to be one versionA > of a file ONLY, meaning that the creation of a second file withE@ > the same name would fail? We have an online system which is up: > most of the day. But even when it is running, if someoneB > inadvertently copies, say, a set of test files to the productionB > system, new versions of the files are created. What I am lookingC > for is a simple way to avoid this problem. Of course, there would ? > also have to be a way to override this protection in order to  > restore files intentionally. >    $ create a.test;327676 alsdfjk <ctrl-z> $ dir/date/size a.test  . Directory EISNER$DRA3:[DECUSERVE_USER.YOUNG_R]  5 A.TEST;32767               1  11-MAR-2003 10:52:58.23-   Total of 1 file, 1 block./ $ create a.test-  %CREATE-E-OPENOUT, error opening/ EISNER$DRA3:[DECUSERVE_USER.YOUNG_R]A.TEST;32760 8 as outputS" -RMS-E-CRE, ACP file create failed- -SYSTEM-W-BADFILEVER, bad file version number7   				RobB       > Thank you, >  > Barryk >  > -- i > Barry in Indy  >  > Knock me out to reply  >  >    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:54:30 +0100 (MET)59 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>s( Subject: Re: One version of a file ONLY.; Message-ID: <01KTENV4Q3829H1MPS@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   B > Is there a way in VMS to specify that there is to be one versionA > of a file ONLY, meaning that the creation of a second file with @ > the same name would fail? We have an online system which is up: > most of the day. But even when it is running, if someoneB > inadvertently copies, say, a set of test files to the productionB > system, new versions of the files are created. What I am looking- > for is a simple way to avoid this problem. G   $ RENAME <special-file> ;32767   > Of course, there would? > also have to be a way to override this protection in order to  > restore files intentionally.   $ RENAME <special-file> ;1   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:03:13 -0600  From: brandon@dalsemi.com ( Subject: Re: One version of a file ONLY.1 Message-ID: <03031111031308@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   R >> In article <zcpba.6359$se1.3612112@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>, "Barry in Indy"& >> <barrymeindy@ameritech.net> writes:E >> > Is there a way in VMS to specify that there is to be one versionaD >> > of a file ONLY, meaning that the creation of a second file withC >> > the same name would fail? We have an online system which is upT= >> > most of the day. But even when it is running, if someone E >> > inadvertently copies, say, a set of test files to the productionsE >> > system, new versions of the files are created. What I am looking F >> > for is a simple way to avoid this problem. Of course, there wouldB >> > also have to be a way to override this protection in order to! >> > restore files intentionally.n >> > t >> e >> $ create a.test;32767 >> alsdfjk <ctrl-z>3 >> $ dir/date/size a.test, >>    - The create version 32767 will certainly work.n  O However, reading between the lines it seems that you have users with privilegesvK they should not have.  Or is the file access set incorrectly?  Something to4K look into outside of the quick fix of 32767.  I certainly would, never knowtK what other deeper problems you will be masking by the fix.  Just a thought.>     John Brandon VMS Systems Administrator  Dallas Semiconductor john.brandon@dalsemi.com 972.371.4172 wkI 972.371.4003 fxe   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:28:14 -0400O0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>( Subject: Re: One version of a file ONLY./ Message-ID: <3E6E1CA6.2CBCFF21@vl.videotron.ca>    Barry in Indy wrote: > B > Is there a way in VMS to specify that there is to be one versionA > of a file ONLY, meaning that the creation of a second file with  > the same name would fail?    $SET DIR [the.dir]/version=1  5 (and as a one time: SET FILE [the.dir]*.*;*/version=1   L Then set the file's protection such that there is no delete access. When youN try to create a new version, the create will fail because it will be unable to> delete the previous version, unless you have all mighty privs.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:49:01 GMT>6 From: Jeffrey Coffield <jeffrey@digitalsynergyinc.com>3 Subject: Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlaying_4 Message-ID: <3E6DF526.5040801@digitalsynergyinc.com>   JF Mezei wrote:D > Rich Jordan wrote: > F >>We print MANMAN forms to LaserJets by creating the PCL code to printE >>the static form information (boxes, lines, headers, addresses, etc; C >>graphics are only used for logos), putting that PCL into a devicebC >>control library for the specific printer(s) and setting the forms24 >>(f.ex) MMVERTPO to have (f.ex) /PAGE_SETUP=VERTPO  >  > N > Having never worked with PCL, it is capable of printing a raw text file "out- > of the box" ? This makes a HUGE difference.t > P > If you print PCL stuff, does this go through DCPS ? Or just using normal printM > symbiont ?  What exactly triggers the inclusion of the /PAGE_SETUP module ?eL > The print symbiont finding a form feed, or after it has exceeded a certain > number of line ? 4 > M > In the case of exceeding a number of lines, how does it reconcile the fancy P > graphics data in the included module with the number of lines ? Does it ignore4 > the number of lines produced by the setup module ? >  > K > In the case of postscript, no print symbiont can really know where in thefP > postscript code, a page eject will really occur, so it has no way of insertingV > some extra code  from some module in the right place inside your postscript program. >  > Here is an example:t > " >    12  14  16  34  37  47   mise" >    02  06  10  14  43  47   mise" >    06  08  12  15  17  43   mise" >    06  10  15  22  23  28   mise" >    16  33  40  44  45  46   mise" >    06  15  25  31  38  48   mise" >    03  11  28  39  41  49   mise" >    02  11  18  20  37  40   mise" >    07  10  11  15  37  46   mise" >    09  17  20  32  47  48   mise" >    01  03  12  14  17  38   mise" >    11  18  22  27  34  45   mise" >    02  06  08  21  34  37   mise" >    11  17  27  32  36  42   mise" >    07  08  19  35  36  46   mise" >    12  13  28  29  32  39   mise" >    11  24  29  34  39  40   mise" >    08  09  15  19  31  32   mise" >    19  20  25  31  41  49   mise" >    01  04  26  27  34  42   mise > printformd >  > P > The above actually generates 3 pages. The "mise" surboutine keeps track of howK > many lottery numbers  have been printed. And this goes on a form that can G > include 8 tickets. So after the 8th "mise", an automatic printform is P > executed. And printform does more than a "showpage", it fill out various boxes1 > on the ticket for options I want or don't want.h > L > The symbiont would have absolutely no way of knowing this, nor would DCPS,P > unless it were to parse the prologue which contains the definitions for "mise" > and "printform".  G I use a postscript "header" in the device control library that sets up oI the form and then reads the rest of the plain text file as data and then 'I   puts the apporpriate showpages in the right spot. I even have one that nG interprets Xerox XES commands to print a copy of a check on a non-Micr p; printer that understands the font change for the Micr line.e   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:10:42 +0000 (UTC)f8 From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins)! Subject: orange juice [was: unix]t- Message-ID: <b4ku9i$nrq$4@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>a  ( [Followup set to alt.folklore.computers]  O In article <3e64fcbf$1@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya <eugene@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote:i >tH >In article <b422bf$4p8$8@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:  = >>Yea, but how do you wedge that into those little brains who 9 >>think that it's important to withhold that information? 0 >>I seem to have spent a lifetime fighting that.  5 >I recently took a trip to Florida in January (work).iB >Growing up in California, one sees TV and billboard/print ads for8 >Florida OJ.  And when I got to FL, I noticed CA OJ ads.G >Those providing transportation have it good making money moving goods.e? >The price has to become prohibitive expensive to prevent that..  C Ack!  California Orange Juice?  What a silly idea.  That would mean E growing valencias instead of navels . . . a foolish use of Californiae: farmland (and as silly as growing navels in Florida . . .)  ' Did people actually pay extra for that?o  @ And while I'm at it, somehow Florida has managed to dominate theG grapefruit market, even though a Florida grapefruit can't hold a candleeH to a texas grapefruit (suuch as the one in front of me at the moment ;).   hawk, baffled again. -- pK Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaignvG dochawk@psu.edu  Smeal 178  (814) 375-4700      \ /   against HTML mail D These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 6 Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \      ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:31:30 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsH Message-ID: <CGkba.89023$em1.32884@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagek, news:DpmdnQowraJEpPCjXTWcoA@metrocast.net... >a0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageE > news:KX4ba.202500$UXa.98286@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...i >a > ...r >1F > > Granted many Arabs living there may not have wanted regime change, >hD > That pretty much says it all:  it doesn't matter whether you agree withE > them, or would yourself have found the proposed changes acceptable:a *they*+ > clearly did not consider them acceptable.e  F It is unclear at this time, or perhaps even back then as well just howE many Arabs living in the lands that became part of Israel were for or-F against partition. Whether it was a majority or a minority of them,  I? don't believe Gallup was there doing a survey. It was mostly anOB agrarian/small business society then, so those that wanted to keepE their land or shops stayed - those that placed religious hatred aheadb of all else left..  F So, coming back to your point above, was it ok and acceptable that the? Arabs who chose to leave were desirous of killing the Jews just 6 because they were Jews? Is that any more 'acceptable'?  E Certainly those Arabs who stayed were of the mindset of 'live and lete8 live', as were the vast majority of the Jewish populace.    A > > Had the intifada not been fomented by Palestinian leaders for: theirh > > own purposes,o >bA > That statement requires some explanation - what I ask for belown mightu
 > suffice. >n8 >  there almost certainly been a peace settlement by nowA > > that all parties could have lived with, perhaps not with wildnE > > enthusiasm, but with the knowledge that it was acceptable. People  onF > > both sides wouldn't still be dying unnecessarily and the economies of& > > all concerned would be better off. >a> > So:  Are you suggesting that complete return of the Occupied Territories wasr? > offered and rejected, or something less than that?  Also, thee
 details ofD > what Rabin was proposing before he was killed and what differences	 the BarakeB > proposal entailed would be helpful:  I'd like to understand such	 details aE > lot better than I do.s  > In negotiations it is not always possible for both parties getD everything that each wants. Both parties in this case would have hadE to give up something that they each wanted in order to come to a dealm that each could accept.   E Rather than me re-hashing what would amount to several thousand books E worth of detail, discussion, and nuance, I'd suggest a read through ao? variety of publications contemporary with the events - NYT, ThehC Economist, Jerusalem Post, something from the Arab world, etc... torC get a feel for the different interpretations of what was discussed, F offered, agreed to, and/or rejected. Find a local synagogue and mosqueD and talk with the rabbi or imam, both of whom should be 'tuned' intoB the feelings and opinions of their respective communities. This isB issue is a lightning rod for high-voltage emotions and keeping the6 facts separate from the feelings is not easy for many.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:26:25 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsG Message-ID: <5ulba.89409$em1.6428@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>/  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message , news:2AydnSZCEepwwPCjXTWcow@metrocast.net... >e0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageE > news:jbaba.207959$UXa.39786@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...  >m > ...  > D > > Israel was constituted under valid resolutions of the U.N.. From itsc@ > > formation in 1948 until relatively recently, Israel has beenF > > surrounded on all sides (except the Mediterranean side) by nations whoCB > > swore that they were going to obliterate Israel and its JewishC > > residents from the face of the earth - not the Arab (Muslim andd> > > non-Muslims) and Jewish citizens of Israel, just the Jews. >aF > And not without some reason - a testament to the ham-handedness with whichnE > Israel was formed.  That of course was the U.N.'s fault rather thanIC > Israel's, and as I've said once Israel had become a fait accomplin rollingeB > back the clock is not something I'd advocate - but the desire to
 obliterateF > the continuing physical manifestation of the humiliation is entirely > understandable.     B Exactly how long is it that somebody should take to get over their= 'humiliation'? Or should the 'humiliation' be fanned forever?t  C Some 'Christians' would perpetually fan the notion that Jews killedaB Christ and use that 'message' to perpetually oppress them and deny them rights.D Some Muslims fan the flames of hatred of Christians for the CrusadesE and use Bush's recent utterings of the word 'crusade' to reinvogorate  that hatred.E Some Macedonians fan the flames of hatred for the Turks for massacresv that occured in the 1300's. ? Closer to home, Quebec has the slogan "Je me souviens" on theirlE license plates. Just what is it that they are 'remembering'? That the E Brits handed them their butts in 1759? That's what some in the QuebeceA government would prefer Quebecers remember because it suits theirn separatist agenda.) Ask an Albanian about the 1915 massacres. . Or very close to home, ask an American Indian.   To all I say, get over it.  F If one believes in the Old Testament, then the story of Passover holdsE a lesson for all. One may choose not to believe that it happened, and A that's ok, but indulge me the floor for a moment and I'll make itcD short. It tells of the time, thousands of years ago, that the peopleD of Israel, the Jews, were enslaved in Egypt. It tells in some detail; of the trials and tribulations. But the end of the story isrD essentially 'that was then' and all that one should do going forwardB is treat one's fellow man with dignity, respect, and conduct one's> self in a peaceful manner. But it also does not mean to permit somebody to kill you.   F Somewhat more recently, how about the crime of being Jewish during theF Spanish Inquisition and the complicity of the Catholic Church in that?B While the person of the current Pope may be completely tolerant ofE Jews, (and forgive me if I mis-state here as I am not 100% up-to-datea@ with Catholic Church dogma), I'm under the impression that thereC is/has been no formal 'apology'/renunciation of the fact of nor themF underlying sentiment leading to the Inqusition. I apoloigize to all ifC I am mistaken in this understanding and I'd appreciate a pointer to A some references showing otherwise. It is that sort of impression,hD right or wrong, that may give pause to some Jews towards viewing theC church in a somewhat jaundiced light, but Jews aren't today callinga= for the killing of any Catholics. That was then, this is now.t  D Ask a Jewish person, whether a survivor of WWII or one that lived inF the US during that period, what they feel about Germany? Some may feelC a revulsion and loathing of Germans and anything German, many won'ttD forgive, but most will say 'that was then'. Today there is no desireF to have an Israeli or US state sponsored policy of pushing the GermansB into the sea and obliterating them even though some might say thatD there is ample reason to think that way. That was then, this is now.   To all I say, get over it.    B > > In view of these indisputable facts, and the history of events thatF > > occurred to the Jews during WWII courtesy of a regime with similarD > > objectives, I wouldn't give you a pitcher of warm spit for those 30+  > > U.N. resolutions.e >y( > You missed both points of the comment: >(E > 1.  The double U.S. standard of asserting that Iraq must be invadedd for E > failure to comply with U.N. resolutions while vigorously supporting. Israel# > despite non-compliance with same.a >tB > 2.  The fact that the Palestinians were acting not as vigilantes	 unwillingd? > to submit their concerns to duly-constituted authority but ast guerillaE > warriors of last resort because that duly-constituted authority wasb' > powerless to deal with the situation.p  C 'Palestine' is not a recognized nation under the U.N.  - Jordan haseE given up on the West Bank, Egypt on Gaza. The closest formal identityeD they are ever called is 'occupied territories' but without any otherB qualifier. Palestinians have observer status at the U.N., but then9 again if they do then perhaps the Kurds ought to as well.z       > ...i > F > > Don't forget that only Egypt has signed a peace treaty with IsraelF > > thus far, and issues of territory and borders were settled in thatB > > treaty. Currently a 'formal', but not 'hot' state of war still exists@ > > between Israel and the other Arab nations. Should Israel not protectsE > > its borders and citizens until such time as a formal peace treatyw is@ > > signed with each of the interested Arab states, Palestinians	 included?t > F > Have I said one word to suggest otherwise?  What I find unacceptable is theF > descent to criminal retaliation rather than the police methods which it issC > fully capable of using, plus the continuing refusal to follow thes
 path Rabin > laid down so promisingly.i >i@ > > When the Arab nations are serious enough about negotiating a serious5F > > peace treaty with Israel, the Israeli's will be at the peace table= > > prepared to settle things as amicably as these things are 	 typically  > > settled between nations. >wB > Israel's main current problem is not with its Arab neighbors but with theC > Palestinians in the lands it is occupying.  And if it could bringg	 itself totA > addressing the Palestinian problem appropriately, its neighbors  would become > much closer to being friends.     B The Palestinian problem is mostly Arafat's ego and policies ratherC than what Israel is doing or not doing. There were several deals on D the table *equally*  palatable/distasteful to both sides that Israel@ said it would sign. All Arafat had to do was take a pen from his% pocket and sign, but he chose not to.r  = There are excesses on both sides occurring in Israel/occupiedi> territories which should stop. Of that I'm sure we both agree.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:05:14 +0100 (MET)r9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants; Message-ID: <01KTEHWWSZWI9FRD0S@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>s  H > I doubt it. Remeber, these people danced in the streets in celebrationB > of the 9/11 attacks. I really don't think that raises Americans' > opinions of them much at all.h  E Careful, for two reasons.  First, "these people" are, by a selection  H effect, the people you see on the news.  Why would the news show people = just doing normal stuff?  So what you see on the news is not t representative.o  G Second, as has been well documented, the most famous of these pictures oG was faked.  A woman was told she would get some food if she cheered in hE front of the camera.  Hey, I've done worse things to get food.  Then bD this was shown and it was said she was cheering because of the 9/11  attacks.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:35:00 -0400m0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants. Message-ID: <3E6DF410.D512027@vl.videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:L > I agree with you about Powell.  But while McCain would certainly have beenL > several cuts above Dubya in many ways, on this particular issue he's quite. > close to the Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz view.  M I have a faint hope that Powell will announce his resignation the day the USAeI begins its invasion of Iraq without UN consent. He could then run for then/ democratic ticket and become president in 2004.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:33:41 -0400s0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants- Message-ID: <3E6DF3C2.F50685@vl.videotron.ca>m   Rob Young wrote:F >         Now the question to you.  Of the major networks, how many of9 >         their hosts are self-proclaimed conservatives? ,  J Isn't all of CNN under orders to support War on Iraq so that they can have higher ratings ?  I One night, the Moneyline program discussed some new poll showing only 30% J support for war (or whatever low number). Yet, they consistently only showK viewer comments who are positive for the war. Talk about editorial slant. IhM now watch it now and then for amusement to see how much worse they can get inh- acting as a voice for White House propaganda.s  K And yesterday, they even showed a bit warning actors that if they speak outsL against the war, they might lose jobs (as has happened to Sean Penn), or not+ get invideed to the academy awards etc etc.f  L I read this as: The white house is concerned that the "liberal" actors mightI become a serious opposition, something thedemocrats have failed to do, sotF sending out those warnings that speaking out against the government isH dangerous to your job would help silence the actors. They even said thatL ratings for West Wing have gone down since Martin Sheen spoke out. (omitting@ that it is normal for ratings to go down when it is in re-runs).  N I applaud the actors for standing up and speaking out at a time where everyoneF else is affraid to do so. It *SHOUDL* (bit isn't) make it clear to allD americans that when a government calls some who opposes its policiesN "unpatriotic", something very very wrong is happening. When a goverment treatsP an ally who *disagrees* with it as almost an ennemy, there is a serious problem.  J And when a government who pretends to be democratic is ready to overrule aI democratic vote at the United Nations and illegally go to war to invade asK country that has done nothing against the USA, then there is something VERYn VERY VERY wrong.  & It is time the USA population woke up.  K Isn't the amendment about the right to bear arms designed to give americansnK the power to oust a rogue government ? Wasn't that the original intent ? It - should be reworked to use modern terminology.c  M Uf Clinton almost got impeached because he got a blow job in the oval office,rG I find it appaling that a president who abuses his power and launchs ansK unprovoked attack a foreign country to invade it and install a USA friendly A government, that such a president  would get away with it totallya% unchallenged, without any opposition.b  L All that is left now if for Ashcroft to start sending to jail any dissentersK to the plan to invade Iraq since they would be a "danger to USA security". aH The american public has so far supported all the illegal imprisonment ofL thousands of LEGAL immigrants, the american public has supported the illegalN detainment without any due legal process of hundreds in gantanamo bay for overL a year,  it is likely that they would support the jailing of those who speakG out against the war since they would obviously be terrorists wishing toe& destabilise homeland security etc etc.  J Maybe, one day, the americans will wake up and wonder "how the hell did weL support all those abuses, why didn't we rise up and oppose those, why did we3 insult the few who dare to rise up and speak out ?"   K A bit like the german population after world war 2 , who, upon awakening toeM what really happened, must have wondered how they could have been brainwashednL into supporting the plans of their then government which seemed so patrioticF and which were designed to make germany so much better, safer etc etc.  H Bush Jr and his cronies are good at one thing: brainwashing the americanK public. A few years from now, the american public will thank the french forsL what they are doing today. But right now, they only see the white house lineN and believe the french are traitors, the ennemy etc etc. (funny how russia andI China, syria aren't seen in the same way, but france and germany, oh boy,o- those are bad countries according to Bush Jr.r   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 10:41:55 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <OQ4RTiPRlqgm@eisner.encompasserve.org>o   In article <00A1CAD5.3AC64DD5@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:lc > In article <gnhjgYzbPCcS@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:a >   L > Second off, Donahue got cancelled despite being the highest-rated show on 
 > MSNBC.    9 	His show was canceled due to a large decline in ratings:1  B http://www.allyourtv.com/0203season/news/03042003buyersregret.html  O All of this was going on at the same time as a frustrating stall in the ratings1L of the show. By late August, network executives had began to discuss ways toJ boost the numbers, and for many, that meant moving the show towards a moreD "centrist, women-friendly environment." In fact, NBC executives haveM consistently claimed that they had hoped for a show that was attractive to anoI "undeserved demographic...women, libertarians, the Middle American Silenti2 Majority that should be the core of our audience."  < 	Other sources bear out the precipitous drop in ratings that 	lead to cancellation.  , 	That and the fact that Donahue is old news:  C http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15858-2003Feb28.htmlt  L "That report--shared with me by an NBC news insider--gives an excruciatinglyI painful assessment of the channel and its programming. .,.,. The harshest O criticism was leveled at Donahue, whom the authors of the study described as 'aaD tired, left-wing liberal out of touch with the current marketplace.'  O "The study went on to claim that Donahue presented a 'difficult public face forrL NBC in a time of war. .,.,. He seems to delight in presenting guests who areN anti-war, anti-Bush and skeptical of the administration's motives.' The reportO went on to outline a possible nightmare scenario where the show becomes 'a homesO for the liberal antiwar agenda at the same time that our competitors are wavingi  the flag at every opportunity.'"    7 	The reference below highlights the underlying problem:4  B http://www.allyourtv.com/0203season/news/03042003buyersregret.html  N The battling for the heart and soul of the show escalated after the results ofJ an October focus group further convinced network news executives that PhilO needed "some help" turning the show around. That focus group led to a series ofoJ additional "fine-tuning" moves, with special attention being given to PhilI himself. "I personally like Donahue, but our numbers were telling us thatiE viewers thought he has too combative, and often said things that some I respondents considered almost unpatriotic," says one network insider. "InnK retrospect, I think we may have overreacted, but I honestly thought we werea" doing what was best for the show."  < 	The underlying problem being is that there is no message or- 	a message that flies in the face of reality.   @ 	Just "attack".  Borne out by Ann Coulter's insightful comments,( 	meaning that's all they have: "attack."  D > His show was the thing that worked best on that network, which wasO > admittedly a network in trouble.  (The actual cable news viewership is pretty N > small compared to any broadcast network, and that pie doesn't divide up veryO > well in three ways.  CNBC and MSNBC both used to have a lot of finance shows,FK > which worked, but lost quite a lot of viewership after the market crash.).N > Fox and CNN are top two in viewership.  Fox entertains most effectively; CNNN > reports the news best.   MSNBC management, which is completely floundering, P > apparently decided that they were going to try to compete on Fox's turf, whichN > is why they cancelled Donahue at the same time they hired Michael Savage andK > Jesse Ventura.  I think they're still going to be number three and in bigu > trouble a year from now.  D 	That's one analysis but isn't borne out by what occured.  His show ? 	started out to huge numbers (see the reference, over a million0C 	viewers).  Liberals and fans of Donahue were hopeful and obviously  	tuned out.N  P > But can you tell whether the problem is that Donahue was liberal, that Donahue2 > was dull, or that nobody watches MSNBC anyway?    A 	Yes.  Some of everything.  I would say the combination of thingsa@ 	that went wrong would be combativeness (attack attack) with no C 	message or an anti-war message.  No surprise about the end result.r   > I can't.  Bill Maher has hisN > own idiosyncratic mix of views, many of which are breathtakingly leftist; heC > gets viewership because he's _not dull_, and because he's on HBO.,  B 	Hooray.  A funny liberal.  Attack attack with humor.  That helps,+ 	probably the only way to get away with it.6  G 	If presenting a message (or attempting to) , you get Donahue.  Doesn'tcB 	work because you can't generate a message.  Attack attack without 	humor doesn't cut it.   >  >>? >>	Now the question to you.  Of the major networks, how many ofeD >>	their hosts are self-proclaimed conservatives?  I'll make a deal.A >>	For every conservative you can trot out on the major networks,s? >>	(newsdesk, hosts ... not just actors.  That wouldn't be fairu& >>	at all.)  I'll trot out 5 liberals. > 
 > First off,     	[snip]e  $ 	[trot them out], I didn't think so.   >>> To reclip: >>> L >>>>> become extremely easy for that one side to manipulate enough of the USM >>>>> population that polls will show support for a rogue government's plans.  >>> K >>> Yup, at least for a while.  The trick is "manipulate _enough_ of the US  >>> population". >>>  >>A >>	Yep.  Us po' insular Merikuns are sooooooo easy to manipulate.y? >>	More so than any other country.  Funny how we are accidentlye8 >>	so successful.  Success must equate with gullability. >>B >>	"I have some land in Florida and a bridge in Brooklyn for sale, >>	which would you prefer?"t > M > Dude, a lot of Merikuns are against the war with Iraq.  You evidently thinksH > they're wrong.  How did they get that incorrect opinion?  Did somebodyK > manipulate them? Did somebody lie to them?  Are they gullible?  No?  What  > happened?o >   E 	I can't prove they are "wrong".  But clearly given a choice that is lE 	"either" "or", one may be correct, and one may be fatally incorrect.eF 	That said, the shell game Saddam is playing is quite obvious.  He is H 	stalling for time, attempting to play nations off against one another, % 	etc.  He is a master of deception.  S  7 	The absolute worst thing that could happen would be tosD 	do nothing, and *as a result* a catastrophe occurs that kills many @ 	Americans here again.  And after the fact it was determined to D 	originate in Iraq.  The mandate after 911 was to go to war against F 	terrorism.  It won't win a popularity contest and it certainly won't . 	change or differ much across administrations.  ? 	IF we go in there a blow things apart, I am certain there willoB 	be enough documentation and folks that know where the bad weapons@ 	are (chemical , biological) that we will find them.  Or just as< 	likely , he gets to pop off a few before we stomp them out.  D 	Keep in mind there are numerous known weapons unaccounted for.  TheA 	inspectors are chasing them down and not finding them, borne outN= 	by Powell's presentation to the UN (the shell game of movingeF 	things around).  I highly doubt Saddam will turn them over regardlessE 	of UN resolutions to do so.  I could be wrong, I hope to be wrong.  ,3 	There is no joy in war, no matter how you view it.    				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 12:13:43 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)l: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <ZD2mnqg1q10g@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  m In article <5ulba.89409$em1.6428@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:7 > E > Some 'Christians' would perpetually fan the notion that Jews killed D > Christ and use that 'message' to perpetually oppress them and deny > them rights.  ; 	Those so-called "Christians" of course would be like otherdG 	so-called "Christians" and using *portions* of Scripture for politicaln; 	purposes.  Scripture doesn't support the reasoning you arec! 	using for illustration purposes.-  
 John 10:14-18-  O 14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15just as theHL Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.L 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also.F They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and oneM shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only tovH take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my ownO accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. Thisi$ command I received from my Father."   D 	It was God's purpose that Christ would willingly die at the hand ofF 	his own people.  This shows up in the Old Testament and New Testament 	in many passages.   				Robr   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:28:51 +0000 (UTC)c+ From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)-: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <b4l9t3$inl$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>e  n In article <b096a4ee.0303092143.5b734c0e@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:e >"Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<iwidnbasiOQAIvajXTWcoQ@metrocast.net>...p> >> "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message: >> news:b096a4ee.0303090902.60368320@posting.google.com...: >> > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message2 >>  news:<9tSdnaaN1qrxAfSjXTWcog@metrocast.net>...B >> > > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message> >> > > news:b096a4ee.0303070733.4e2ec2e2@posting.google.com...> >> > > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message2 >>  news:<a5idnRM8DszJYvqjXTWcqg@metrocast.net>...F >> > > > > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messageB >> > > > > news:b096a4ee.0303061429.13ad17fc@posting.google.com...H >> > > > > > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message6 >> > > > > news:<3E678A39.4FDC5595@vl.videotron.ca>... >> > > >hJ >> > > > > Israel's occupation and, worse, settlement activities for three >>  decades ; >> > > > > despite the condemnation of the world community.  >> > > >A >> > > > It was the Arabs fault that there even is an occupation.g >> > >L >> > > Really?  Their fault for attempting to retake the land that was taken >>  fromF >> > > them in 1948?  I'm afraid you have a bit of a blind spot there. >> >D >> > Uh, remember the, uh, UN? That organization you seem to find soJ >> > important? It was they who divided the land into a Jewish state and a >> > Palestinian state.6 >> .M >> So they erred in that case:  nobody's perfect, but it doesn't mean they're N >> generally useless either.  And after an additional half-century they shouldB >> have learned at least a bit more about how to handle the world. >R( >So maybe they erred in this case, also. >E >> EN >> *Who* was responsible for the land-grab really doesn't change the fact thatO >> trying to get it back was understandable and defensible, which was my point.a > F >I don't know the full history of that stupid piece of land. I do knowC >that the Jews have been probably the most persecuted people on the0F >planet. And after WWII they said ENOUGH! Is it so terrible for such aE >people to obtain, via the UN, a small parcel of land that was once a6D >very small part of their ancient homeland, after what the world has >done to the Jews? >t  N See http://users.mweb.co.za/l/ll/lloyd/5-SpecialStudies/JewishHostilities.htmlK for a non Jewish view of the conflict. Note in particular the Jewish use offO terrorist attacks on Arab Buses in Palestine, letter and book bombs, attacks oni. Hotels etc before the establishment of Israel.L Also note the attacks on Arab villages and forcible expulsion of Arabs from ! their homes during 1948 and 1949.t  F The Jews have suffered greatly but that does not excuse Israel for the2 suffering they have inflicted on the Palestinians.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University    F >BTW, we could redraw quite a few borders. We could give the U.S. backD >to the native Americans. I'm sure Europe would look different, too.< >And probably the rest of the world. So why focus on Israel? >cH >> > Can you explain how you totally disregard the UN for that, but find> >> > them so important, or is the word, convenient, now? HMMM? >>  N >> While I just did so above, I'm getting a bit tired of the sophomoric nature >> of some of your responses.c >i >That's your opinion.h >nE >Now, come on. You found it very important to include the UN for thisaF >Iraq thing. Then you belittle it for Israel because *your* opinion is% >different. I find that inconsistent.  >  >> > >  And it is the D >> > > > Palestinians' fault that they don't have their own country. >> > >N >> > > They had had what they needed:  why would they care about getting lines >>  on a >> > > map in exchange?1 >> >J >> > Uh, the PLO was founded in 1964, three years before the "occupation". >> > Can you explain that? >> 1N >> Well, their name just *might* provide a clue.  In 1964, their objective wasF >> still to retake Israel itself - land which was in a very real senseL >> 'occupied' but from which a large portion of the previous inhabitants had/ >> been evicted rather than oppressed in place.2 >3B >But you said the Palestinians were happy that they had their land >between 1948 and 1967.l >g >> t >> > >> > > >> > >  They could< >> > > > have had one in 1948, but they went to war instead. >> > >N >> > > Funny how some people get upset when you grab the land they were living >>  on.i >> >H >> > Well, your venerable UN said that was the right thing to do. And it >> > was a small piece of land.  >> nL >> So if I come along and take your house away, do you just grin and bear it3 >> because it is just a small piece of real estate?s >hE >It's a little more complex than that. Some claim that the Arabs told.> >the Palestinians to leave and let the Arab armies destroy theF >just-born state of Israel after which they could return. Some counterG >that argument, though. I don't know what the real truth of this is andv >you probably don't either.s >r. >>  Smaller than the pre-1967 Israel. They had- >> > the rest, but chose war and lost it all.h >> fM >> They chose to try to take back what had been theirs.  Who won the war does1N >> not affect the legitimacy of that goal, nor legitimize permanent occupation >> of *more* land as a result. > - >It wasn't theirs, it was under British rule.  >F >> u >> > >> > >  From 1948 to 1967 B >> > > > they didn't care that they didn't have their own country. >> > >/ >> > > See above:  they just wanted their land.n >> >% >> > See above, PLO, founded in 1964.b >> wN >> I guess you really didn't understand, after all:  'their land' in the aboveO >> context was *Israel*.  There's a clear parallel in civil law:  the fact that N >> you may have been given stolen property by the party who stole it in no wayJ >> confers any title to that property (even if you paid for it) - it still, >> rightfully belongs to the original owner. >oF >Well, it depends how far back you go in time. Go back far enough, andG >it was Jewish land. And why aren't you complaining about all the otherc; >stolen land in the world? You are focusing on Israel. Why?n >aN >> I don't advocate returning Israel to the Palestinians *now*, and as I notedM >> they also appear willing to accept that as long as they get back the otherh >> land taken *after* 1948.a >sA >I don't believe it. They appear to want to take the whole thing.g7 >Sometimes it appears that they just want to kill Jews.u >a >> > >  If the ArabsK >> > > > hadn't forced Israel into a war in 1967, there'd be no occupation.  >> > >L >> > > And if Israel hadn't been carved out of land that the donors were not >>  free& >> > > to give, there'd be no problem. >> >K >> > The UN did it. Had the Arabs accepted the decision of the UN, accepteds4 >> > Israel's right to exist, there'd be no problem. >> -O >> The U.N. decision (including Israel's 'right to exist') was an arbitrary one L >> by a very newly-established body still finding its feet.  It was easy forO >> the great powers to accept and support the decision because it didn't affect@N >> them (save to assuage some of the collective guilt for what had happened toN >> the Jews under Hitler and to which many of them had turned a somewhat blindK >> eye for so long).  It was a lot harder for the people evicted from theiryK >> land to accept, and they responded in an entirely understandable manner.h >y+ >Well, it's controversial who ejected them.e >i >>   >> >J >> > > > If the Palestinians had made as good an offer to Israel as IsraelM >> > > > under Ehud made to them, and if Israel responded with the equivalentaB >> > > > of an intifada, wouldn't you be pretty angry with Israel? >> > >G >> > > Not in the slightest:  it's the roles and their history that arei; >> > > significant, not the specifics of who occupies them.d >> > > >> > >  Hmmm? Oh,yN >> > > > but turn the tables and somehow you still find Israel to be at fault. >> > >L >> > > Funny how you assume the issue is about ethnicity rather than issues. >>  ButiI >> > > it does give some insight into Israeli hard-line thinking (or whath
 >>  passes >> > > for it).  >> >F >> > FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD! Israel offered them a country. A negotiatingH >> > starting point. They could have bargained for something better. ButE >> > they attacked! So I guess according to you and them the Israelis H >> > should just pack up and leave, or just commit suicide. yeah, that's >> > what you seem to want.e >> rK >> It doesn't matter what I want (or what you want).  What the PalestinianstM >> seem to want (and what seems reasonable to me) is for Israel to get out ofdD >> the territory it occupied since 1948 in return for a cessation ofO >> hostilities and relinquishing of the claim to the land of Israel proper.  NodK >> one is asking the Israelis to 'pack up and leave' from Israel itself anyf+ >> more:  that's just right-wing hyperbole.t >eF >If they only bombed the settlements, you would have a point. But theyE >also bomb pre-1948 Israel. Also, Palestinian maps show all of IsraelgE >as part of the future state of Palestine. All you seem to care aboutiG >is what the Palestinians want. Suppose they want all the riches of thetB >world? Should we give that to them? What they want means nothing. >rC >BTW, I've always been against the settlements. They are a needless E >huge drain on the Israeli army and only makes matters worse in otheroC >ways. But Ehud Barak's deal was to dismantle most of them and givewG >them their own country. From there they could have improved their lot.n6 >Instead they made things worse for everyone involved. >n >> t1 >>  People like you want negotiations. THAT WAS ArI >> > NEGOTIATION AND IT WAS RESPONDED TO WITH VIOLENCE!!! What more coulddF >> > Israel do except self-destruct? After countless wars by the ArabsC >> > against Israel, I say they are entitled to defendable borders.a >> rM >> And I say that they wouldn't need to worry nearly so much about the naturerL >> of their borders (which are of course reasonably defendable regardless ofK >> where they're drawn in this day and age) if they took the land for peace C >> deal that has been on the table since Rabin nearly completed it.M > G >Are you actually blaming the Palestinians here for something? Sorry, Ir# >missed your point. Who are "they"?5 >a >>  Yes,? >> > you conveniently forget all the Arabs wars against Israel.t >> eO >> IIRC Israel started both the 1967 and the 1973 wars, so the 'countless' wars N >> by the Arabs against Israel at least technically seem to be confined to theO >> single one in 1948 (at least I think there was one then) - though there's antN >> excellent chance that they would have started at least one of the others if' >> Israel hadn't attacked preemptively.  >rC >I find it hard to believe that Israel "started" these wars without ? >good reason. But that's just my opinion. I don't have detailedhD >knowledge of these wars. But I do think that Egypt made some ratherF >offensive moves if not actual attacks in the 1973 war. Wait a minute.E >ISTR that Egypt attacked ON Yom Kippur. That's why it was called thehC >Yom Kippur war. So I belive it was Egypt who attacked. And in 1967rF >didn't the Arabs blockade the Gulf of Aqaba? Is not a blockade an act >of war? >e >> a >>  How can youoK >> > negotiate with people like these, who respond to peace offers with they >> > Intifada round II?e >> lM >> You *really* don't get it.  A peace offer which doesn't adequately addressyN >> the issues for which you're fighting is merely a capitulation, so of courseO >> you don't accept it.  And you use whatever means are available to you (whichlH >> in this case is *precisely* the Intifada) to continue the fight until# >> something acceptable is offered.a > A >Well, when your country is attacked by suicide bombers, don't beeA >surprised if such country responds like Israel did. The intifadacD >doesn't seem to have done any good. It solidified the right wing inF >Israel. It turned most doves into hawks. And it resulted in worseningF >of the Palestinians situation. No, I don't think it was justified andG >I don't think it was a good idea. And I don't think it would have been ? >terribly difficult to predict that it would have a bad result.e > G >And if you don't stop with the insults, I'll simply declare myself thesC >winner of this argument! :-) Seriously, please stick to arguments.e >I'll try to do the same.e >n >> OL >> Relinquishing their claim to Israel proper (i.e., to a great deal of whatN >> was *their* land) is a *major* concession that reflects the reality of overL >> a half-century of use and development by Israel.  Demanding the return ofO >> the rest of *their* land, which in no comparable way has Israel invested in,m >> is hardly unreasonable. >bG >I haven't heard of this relinquishing. And if they did, I suspect it'sl >a ruse. >oN >> > > > Yeah, there were complaints about the offer Ehud made to them. But itI >> > > > is controversial just what these problems were. Even so, had theoM >> > > > Palestinians accepted it it would have been the best thing to happenw >> > > > to them in decades. >> > >H >> > > And that's a *good* thing?  Rather, it's a sad commentary on what >>  they'vem, >> > > had to put up with for those decades. >> >& >> > Uh, the status quo is any better? >> tM >> That's their decision to make.  And it's pretty clear that they're willingeK >> to continue the status quo until they feel that they have been offered ae >> just alternative. >i< >If everyone insisted on total justice, it would be mutuallyD >incompatible and there would be constant war resulting in even less0 >justice. Sometimes you just have to compromise. >t >> g! >>  They could have had their owniB >> > country and an end to the "occupation". How is that not good? >> nI >> My strong impression is that they were offered an end to *some* of the O >> occupation in return for relinquishing their claim on the *rest* of the landtO >> occupied since 1967 and 1973.  If so, I can easily see how that would not be  >> acceptable. >gF >So anytime anyone finds something unacceptable, instead of bargainingA >for something better, they should send in the suicide bombers. I , >thought you were against the death penalty. >t? >It was an initial offer. You can bargain for something better.oE >Instead, they attacked! I don't find that attack to be justified. DoiB >you really expect anyone attacked like that to just go "Oh, okay,A >here, we'll just do whatever you want." Would you expect that ingG >response to 9/11 the U.S. would just convert to Taliban-style Islam? Ip. >mean, the Taliban would find that acceptable. >o	 >>  Oh, ItG >> > see, it is not the ideal, uptopic solution, so better to wallow in E >> > misery than accept a less than perfect offer. Sorry, I don't buyi >> > reasoning like that.t >>  O >> You don't have to:  it's their decision whether that's acceptable or whethernK >> the Intifada should continue.  And at least some people don't find their 6 >> decision to continue the fight at all unreasonable. > 8 >That doesn't mean they made a wise or justified choice. >o6 >> > >  And to respond to even a slightly flawed offer >> > > > with suicide bombers? >> > >K >> > > Well, Israel *did* have the opportunity to fix the flaws, but wasn'te >> > > inclined to.  >> >K >> > Just what the flaws were and even if they existed is controversial. WeeI >> > don't really know. Israel had the opportunity? They were attacked inu' >> > response!!! That's an opportunity?  >> oH >> Israel hasn't been 'attacked' since 1948, nor has an attack even beenK >> credibly threatened since 1973.  They could stop what you're choosing touH >> describe as 'attacks' (i.e., the Intifada) tomorrow by addressing the# >> concerns they failed to address.o >  >Nonsense. r >c/ >> > > > This is to be commended or overlooked?a >> > >N >> > > Mostly, it's important that it be *understood*:  how it's judged really >> > > isn't very relevant.e >> >9 >> > Oh, but it's perfectly okay for you to judge Israel.  >> eJ >> Of course it is, just as it's OK for you to judge the Palestinians.  MyH >> point is that neither judgement is particularly relevant to finding aN >> solution to the problem:  understanding the causes of the problem is what's >> relevant. >> n >> > >> > > >> > >  What itc7 >> > > > does is show what the Palestinians really are.t >> > >M >> > > Yup:  unwilling to be pushed beyond a certain point, regardless of thee	 >>  cost.e >> >8 >> > You could just as well say that about the Israelis. >> nM >> No, you couldn't:  they are not an occupied people but an occupying power. K >> What the Palestinians want is freedom; what the Israelis seem to want is  >> their land. >lC >The Jews have been persecuted by the rest of the world. After WWIIeG >they said "never again" and realized that the only way to survive as arG >people was to establish their own country. Would it really have been adB >great injustice if Israel had it's initial allotment of land? YouE >can't have 100% justice for everyone. It's physically impossible. SooD >you do the best you can. But you seem to insist on 100% justice forE >the Palestinians regardless of what happens to Israel. I don't think- >that's right. >- >>   >> > >> > > >> > >  They want to destroyC >> > > > Israel. It still says so in the PLO's charter. IT SAYS SO!c >> > >N >> > > Well, at least it used to.  The PLO has stated repeatedly that it would >>  give >> >G >> > LAST I HEARD IT STILL DOES. HHHEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!n >> bN >> The willingness to remove it is clear.  But while hostilities continue they >> have no reason to do so.  >aG >What willingness? There's no such thing. They have no reason to do so?eD >Huh? Israel should bargain with a people who have clearly stated inF >print, in that charter, that their primary goal is the destruction ofB >the state of Israel? There's no asterisk that says "well, if theyD >would just be nice and fair to us, we'll be happy to live in peace, >side by side with them".  >t >> m >> >N >> > > up that goal if Israel would give up its occupation, which is in fact aL >> > > *major* concession (i.e., they're finally willing to relinquish their	 >>  claimeI >> > > to the land taken in 1948, as long as they get back the land takeno >>  later).j >> >K >> > Isn't this what was offered by Ehud? And they responded with violence.2 >> vL >> If that were the case, I'd have to reevaluate my feelings on this matter.N >> But I don't believe that Barak offered more than partial return of the land >> taken after 1948. >qD >Again you insist on 100% justice for Palestinians without regard toB >anything else. Why do you focus on them? What about all the other) >cases? The American Indian, for example.t >e >> d >> >I >> > > For some reason, Israel just hasn't quite managed to agree to that- >>  (though-I >> > > it was coming close under Rabin, which is why a right-wing IsraelipL >> > > assassinated him - and instead of responding with appropriate outrage >>  andsM >> > > the determination to continue his work, the country turned hard right,h >>  just+ >> > > as the assassin had hoped it would).  >> > > >> > > >7 >> > > > I have lost all sympathy for the Palestinians,C >> > >O >> > > They really couldn't care less about your sympathy (though they'd likelyhB >> > > welcome it if offered):  they just want their freedom back. >> >K >> > I don't care what they think about my sympathy. That's not what we arecH >> > discussing here. Freedom? When were they free? What was the name of7 >> > their country? What was the name of their capital?  >> cM >> You don't need a country to be free.  Some people would argue that you cane& >> sometimes be more free without one. >> e >> > >> > > >> > >  though I have littleN >> > > > for the "settlers" who obviously don't help matters. I understand howJ >> > > > people are not happy with the settlements. But it seems to me the- >> > > > Palestinians are much more at fault.s >> > > >> > > Other viewpoints differ.s >> >& >> > Yes, other viewpoints are biased. >> aN >> Certainly no more than your own, and since you appear to be in the minorityA >> of world opinion in this matter arguably *less* than your own.  >e- >Majority opinion does not imply correctness.a >g >> g >> >L >> > > > Aid to Israel helps preserve the only democracy in the Middle East. >> > >O >> > > Democracy is nice, all other things being equal.  In this case, however,lN >> > > other things are far from equal:  supporting Israel is without question >>  atM >> > > liability for American foreign policy, but of great domestic politicall >> > >> > So is support of Taiwan.n >> mE >> Not nearly as clear, since unlike Israel Taiwan has great economic M >> significance not only for us but for the world.  And we did meet the China M >> question half way, by recognizing the PRC and supporting its assumption of, >> China's seat at the U.N.n >> Y >> >M >> > > importance.  But even large portions of the American Jewish populationh >>  (andM >> > > for that matter many liberal Israelis) are torn between loyalty to theW >>  ideaN >> > > of a Jewish state and horror at some of the things that state is doing. >> >F >> > True, but for every bad Israeli deed there are hundereds of worseI >> > Palestinian deeds. No country is perfect, but people like you alwaysn5 >> > hold Israel, and Israel alone, to that standard.a >> UN >> The Palestinians are not a country, but an oppressed people.  As such, theyI >> take what actions they can and many people around the world understandcG >> though deplore the necessity.  Israel, by contrast, is a country, ansH >> occupying power, and a military powerhouse:  it has the *capacity* toM >> respond in a far more civilized and measured manner, and its failure to do," >> so is the cause of the censure. >iB >Only if they are willing to tolerate an endless string of suicide	 >bombers.o >v >>  L >> Of course, since well over twice as many Palestinians have been killed byI >> Israelis during the Intifada as the reverse, even your suggestion thattK >> Palestinians account for hundreds of atrocities for every Israeli one is 
 >> absurd. >hF >Well, that depends. The Israeli actions are retaliatory. And at leastE >some of the deaths are their own fault. Remember the ambulances thatoD >instead of carrying injured, actually carried more suicide bombers? >aF >If you're going to attack a country, you better expect a response and5 >realize that there will be casualties on both sides.r >eF >And when Israel retaliates, they attempt to kill only the terrorists.D >They try to keep civilian casualties to a minimum (with perhaps oneC >exception event). When the Palestinians attack, they *try* to killmE >civilians, even if some of the are Arabs! It is not the numbers, butn/ >the motives, that prompted my statement above.o > F >That is a big difference. Israelis are trying to kill the terrorists.F >The Palestinians are trying to kill all Israelis with maximum pain by/ >putting nails and razors in the suicide bombs.n >oK >> > The Israelis could all commit suicide and you'd probably complain that6& >> > they didn't do it quickly enough! >> gM >> I've suggested pretty plainly what I think the Israelis should do, but you4' >> don't appear to have been listening.n >t >??? >1 >5 >> 4	 >> - billA   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 08:53:06 -0500 ! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>< Subject: Re: OT: About snow...' Message-ID: <3E6DEA42.C6D06079@vcu.edu>u  4 oh man.. how do you keep the roofs from caving in???   jim    JF Mezei wrote:a > M > Some time ago, Sue asked how everyone was doing, with regards the the smalls, > snowfalls that covered the north east USA. > , > http://northernpen.hypermart.net/storm.htm > J > will give you a good idea of what a REAL canadian winter is like (ok, so% > newfoundland gets a LOT of snow :-)    -- uF "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship of the Ring"   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:14:12 GMTo# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>d Subject: Re: OT: About snow...J Message-ID: <oXnba.212468$UXa.137867@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  . "Jim Agnew" <jpagnew@vcu.edu> wrote in message! news:3E6DEA42.C6D06079@vcu.edu... 6 > oh man.. how do you keep the roofs from caving in???   Shovels.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:18:50 -0400p0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: OT: About snow.../ Message-ID: <3E6E1A73.ECEB5A67@vl.videotron.ca>s   Jim Agnew wrote: > 6 > oh man.. how do you keep the roofs from caving in???  K They are built to widthstand a few feet of now. But more than that, and youg" should push the snow off the roof.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 08:06:45 -0800& From: HerronRScott@hotmail.com (Scott)4 Subject: Pathworks 6.0C and Windows 2000 AD upgrade?= Message-ID: <b6c3a9c0.0303110806.7f16b1a5@posting.google.com>s   All,  D We just upgraded our Windows NT PDC to Windows 2000 (mixed-mode) andC are now running AD.  Everything went fine except for a problem withhF our AlphaServer 4100 running VMS 7.1-1H1 and Pathworks 6.0C and acting> as a BDC in the same domain.  It appears to be having problemsB replcating with the PDC now that it's Windows 2000 with AD and PDC
 emulation.  2 I'm getting the following errors in the Event log   B W 03/06/03 08:54:27 PM NETLOGON  None            5718   N/A        KAPPA C NET5718:   The full synchronization replication of the SAM databaset from the#  domain controller \\PRAPDC failed.i  B E 03/06/03 08:54:27 PM NETLOGON  None            5732   N/A        KAPPAsD NET5732:   Replication of the SAM User "PRAPDC$" from primary domain
 controller*  \\PRAPDC failed with the following error: The parameter is incorrect.a  C Is this a known issue with this version of Pathworks?  The ultimate C plan is to this server to its own domain and set up a trust but I'dw rather wait if possible.  E Thanks for any help that you can give me (If I should post to anothert3 newsgroup, please point me in the right direction.)    Scottt   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:27:21 GMTt% From: "Safir" <axica_nopub@yahoo.com> 8 Subject: Re: Pathworks 6.0C and Windows 2000 AD upgrade?0 Message-ID: <J7oba.184$7D3.120@news.cpqcorp.net>   Hi,e  9 At first , you should be  sure to use 6.0C ECO 2 or 6.0 D   
 To check :# $ @sys$startup:pwrk$define_commands  $ pwversionh   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:20:27 +0100t, From: "Ferry Bolhar" <bol@adv.magwien.gv.at> Subject: Problem with DELETE8 Message-ID: <1047374428.480626@mozart.adv.magwien.gv.at>  	 Hi folks,   H I've found a strange behaviour of the DCL command DELETE when using fileH list where the first element of the list includes a node name (a logical7 name which points to a file spec including a node name)a  @ In one of our cleanup procedures, the following command is used:  1 $ DELETE/LOG ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.TMP.*,*.DAT.*,*.LOG.*'  < where ADV_ISBA_DIR is a system-wide logical name pointing to   ISBA01::ADV_ISBA_GTX:e  , and ADV_ISBA_GTX on ISBA01 finally points to   DKA205:[ISBA.GTX].  J The procedure runs every night at 3:00 and until yesterday, it worked with< no problems. All .TMP, .DAT and .LOG files were deleted from DKA101:[ISBA.GTX].  J Well, last night, there were some problems in our local network and ISBA01H was not reachable from the node where the procedure runs. Today morning,K while looking at this node, I found some .DAT files missing in SYS$MANAGER.uL I had no explantation for this until looking in the logfile of the batch jobK which executed the procedure with a the DELETE command shown above. I found  this:a  F %DELETE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for VAX003::ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.TMP;*/ -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup failede= -SYSTEM-F-UNREACHABLE, remote node is not currently reachable J %DELETE-I-FILDEL, SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]ACCOUNTNG.DAT;4 deleted (232 blocks)H %DELETE-I-FILDEL, SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]ACMSPARAM.DAT;1 deleted (8 blocks)F %DELETE-I-FILDEL, SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]ACMSVAR.DAT;1 deleted (3 blocks) ....(and so on)v  I About 6 dozens .DAT and .LOG files were deleted! It seems that DELETE has J "forgotten" the node name and directory spec of the first list element andL has applied the pure file names for all others! And since the job runs underJ SYSTEM whose login directory is SYS$MANAGER, all .DAT and .LOG files where5 deleted from there! I was very lucky today morning...h  : My questions: is the well-know behaviour? Or simply a bug?  K BTW: we're running OpenVMS V6.2. Can someone reproduce the problem in newers	 versions?e  6 Kind greetings from Vienna, and MTIA for every answer.   Ferryn   -- Ing. Ferry Bolharo% Municipality of Vienna, Department 14  A-1010 Vienna / AUSTRIA  E-mail: bol@adv.magwien.gv.atu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 09:49:38 -0500i9 From: Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com>d  Subject: Re: Problem with DELETE/ Message-ID: <3E6DF781.5A366296@eps.zko.dec.com>v   Ferry Bolhar wrote:r   > Hi folks,i  3 > $ DELETE/LOG ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.TMP.*,*.DAT.*,*.LOG.*i> > where ADV_ISBA_DIR is a system-wide logical name pointing to > ISBA01::ADV_ISBA_GTX:  >IA > and ADV_ISBA_GTX on ISBA01 finally points to DKA205:[ISBA.GTX].l   :i  2 >  I found some .DAT files missing in SYS$MANAGER.   Ouch!t  H > %DELETE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for VAX003::ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.TMP;*  C Hmmm... that log output mentions VAX003, not ISBA01 as you mention. M Could that VAX003 would not happen to be the node (or a cluster brother node)d! where the files dissapeared from?a  L Would the script that sets up the logical have failed and produced the wrong logical.- If the node is simply note reachable you get:r   $ def test 123::xyz: $ dir test:*.tmp.*,*.dat.*9 %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening 123::XYZ:*.TMP;* as inputt/ -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup failedi= -SYSTEM-F-UNREACHABLE, remote node is not currently reachablea9 %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening 123::XYZ:*.DAT;* as inputw/ -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup faileda= -SYSTEM-F-UNREACHABLE, remote node is not currently reachablep  P Now if a procedure grab the node name from a symbol and that symbol is empty you
 might get:   $ def test ::xyz:t< %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of TEST has been superseded $ dir test:*.tmp.*,*.dat.*: %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening XYZ:[HEIN]*.TMP;* as inputK -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for operation    Directory U$1:[HEIN]7 DECW$TERMINAL_DEFAULT.DAT;4                   TMP.DAT;2u  + Here we see _almost_ the efect you mention.-O The second filespec did not inheret the (broken) attributes from the first (howb ccoudl it, it was broken).P What is missing to make it more like your problem is the lack of a nodespec part in the failing output.  L That's all I have for now. There are several workarounds of course, notably:P -    Do note rely on releated file specs where tehre are many parameters at play+ (leveles of logicals), some out of control.aN -    Repeat the logical before each wildcard spec to re-anchor the environment
 is parts failuJ -    Use an application username, and file protection schemes to limit the damage a command can inflict.eP -    Never run with BYPASS, allthough that woudl probably not had helped here asJ the (accidental) user was the file owner for the accidently deleted files.   Sorry for your loss, Hein.H   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:51:10 -0400e0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: Problem with DELETE/ Message-ID: <3E6DF7DA.BDD7988D@vl.videotron.ca>e   Ferry Bolhar wrote:p3 > $ DELETE/LOG ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.TMP.*,*.DAT.*,*.LOG.*o    	 Question:y   If you were to do:  ! DELETE IBSA_DIR:*.TMP,*.DAT,*.LOGy  H where IBSA_DIR pointed to a local directory. Lets say that there were noD *.TMP, (so first delete would fail with a no files found), would theK subsequent deletes still get IBSA_DIR: as default , or would they revert too4 the current directory as was the case in the above ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:56:09 -0500a; From: "Brian Tillman" <Brian.Tillman@notnoone.notnohow.com>h  Subject: Re: Problem with DELETE$ Message-ID: <3e6e1525$1@news.si.com>  I >I've found a strange behaviour of the DCL command DELETE when using file0I >list where the first element of the list includes a node name (a logicaln8 >name which points to a file spec including a node name)  I While what you present certainly had significant side effects because theEK node was unavailable, it also doesn't surprise me and I would consider it a0L reasonable failure mode.  When working with remote systems, it's a good idea: to include the remove specification on each file, such as:  K $ DELETE/LOG ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.TMP.*,ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.DAT.*,ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.LOG.*>  G The "stickyness" of file specifications has always worked only if priorl* actions succeeded in finding a valid spec. --  I Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot comd5 Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM.>@ 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991n8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:05:18 -0500i; From: "Brian Tillman" <Brian.Tillman@notnoone.notnohow.com>   Subject: Re: Problem with DELETE$ Message-ID: <3e6e174a$1@news.si.com>  I >When working with remote systems, it's a good idea to include the remove> specification on each file  3 Oops.  I meant "remote", not "remove" in the above.m -- >I Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot com>5 Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM. @ 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991l8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:34:14 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: Problem with DELETE/ Message-ID: <3E6E1E0E.B5A7499E@vl.videotron.ca>h   Brian Tillman wrote:M > $ DELETE/LOG ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.TMP.*,ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.DAT.*,ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.LOG.*e > I > The "stickyness" of file specifications has always worked only if priorc, > actions succeeded in finding a valid spec.  E I don't think that this is right. If the first file spec fails and isp; unusable, then it should fail the remainder of the command.r  L If the failure of the first file specification results in the remaining fileM specs to point to different files, this is very wrong. It should point to the 1 same file spec whether the delete works or fails.w  I While I agree that there are workarounds, it does point to some dangerouslL inconsistency in the default file specifications philosophy. The propagationL of file specification in multiple coma separate file names should eithe work, fully and consistently, or not exist at all.  I What is the point of providing it if the user cannot be sure exactly whato files will be deleted ?o   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 07:09:20 -08000 From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter) Subject: Process State "RWCAP"= Message-ID: <a3c44af1.0303110709.59fafb37@posting.google.com>r   Guys, C       I had a crash on my Certification system on Saturday and I ank trying to determine the cause.  C       Examination of the crash dump showed that, at the time of theoD crash I had many processes in a "RWCAP" state.    Obviously somekindE of Resource Wait, however I am not familiar with this particular one,  and I cant find documentation.  8       Can anyone tell me what this state implies/means??  F       Secondly I found a large number of processes called "NET_nnnnn",B username "ILLEGAL".    I have never seen these processes before on< this system, however I suspect they might be generated by my< application (Cerner HNA Classic & PowerChart).    Is there aD non-application (possible) cause for these processes, and is there a connection to item 1 above.r  C       The system involved is an A/S 8400/440 running OpenVMS 7.2-1,aE TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Version 5.0A, ECO 3, and DecNet Phase IV.t   Thanks for your help   Dave Baxter    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:58:13 GMTr% From: "Safir" <axica_nopub@yahoo.com>1" Subject: Re: Process State "RWCAP"0 Message-ID: <pInba.181$iB3.172@news.cpqcorp.net>   From Ask Compaq :i  L http://h18000.www1.hp.com/support/asktima/operating_systems/00914D17-7FE5D38
 0-1C01E7.html   @ [OpenVMS] Discussion Of Processes In The RWxxx Scheduling States   ....  C RWCAP - May be used by the VMS scheduling code when quorum is lost.>G         However, this is not the normal case since once quorum is lost,a7         no processes are allowed to continue executing.o  
         Note:hF           In the case of a CLUEXIT bugcheck, it is very typical to see1           many processes in the RWCAP wait state.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:33:09 -0000u* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>" Subject: Re: Process State "RWCAP"+ Message-ID: <b4l347$vle@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>   = "Dave Baxter" <dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com> wrote in messagee7 news:a3c44af1.0303110709.59fafb37@posting.google.com...r  : >       Can anyone tell me what this state implies/means??  : RWCAP is 'waiting for processor capability'. SHOW CPU/FULLF will list them. When you see it in a crash dump, it's usually a result= of lost quorum. So if your system took a CLUEXIT bugcheck, ith is expected.  B > Secondly I found a large number of processes called "NET_nnnnn",D > username "ILLEGAL".    I have never seen these processes before on> > this system, however I suspect they might be generated by my> > application (Cerner HNA Classic & PowerChart).    Is there aF > non-application (possible) cause for these processes, and is there a > connection to item 1 above.n  G It is traditional to set various DECnet objects to use that by default,gD so that 'anonymous' access attempts are flagged. It might indicate a: proxy account not set up correctly but it's not a crasher.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:18:00 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>" Subject: Re: Process State "RWCAP"/ Message-ID: <3E6E1A41.A0426D0B@vl.videotron.ca>o   Dave Baxter wrote:H >       Secondly I found a large number of processes called "NET_nnnnn", > username "ILLEGAL".  a   MC NCP SHOW KNOWN OBJECTSl  L On my system the object "TASK" is defined with default username of "ILLEGAL" and password of "DISBALED".   F So I suspect that if you try decnet task access without any proxies orM usernames in the decnet specification, it would default to username "ILLEGAL"9- (which, on most systems, should never exist).a   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 10:50:36 -08000 From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter)" Subject: Re: Process State "RWCAP"= Message-ID: <a3c44af1.0303111050.67dcdb18@posting.google.com>l  u dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter) wrote in message news:<a3c44af1.0303110709.59fafb37@posting.google.com>...e > Guys,tE >       I had a crash on my Certification system on Saturday and I an'  > trying to determine the cause. > E >       Examination of the crash dump showed that, at the time of thesF > crash I had many processes in a "RWCAP" state.    Obviously somekindG > of Resource Wait, however I am not familiar with this particular one,e  > and I cant find documentation. > : >       Can anyone tell me what this state implies/means?? > H >       Secondly I found a large number of processes called "NET_nnnnn",D > username "ILLEGAL".    I have never seen these processes before on> > this system, however I suspect they might be generated by my> > application (Cerner HNA Classic & PowerChart).    Is there aF > non-application (possible) cause for these processes, and is there a > connection to item 1 above.a > E >       The system involved is an A/S 8400/440 running OpenVMS 7.2-1,hG > TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Version 5.0A, ECO 3, and DecNet Phase IV.i >  > Thanks for your help > 
 > Dave Baxter:     Additional:a  D I just want to say that a search through old postings provided a lotE of information on RWCAP ans so I nolonger  need the description info.l  B After learning about capabilities, I checked that the only processA that is bound to a CPU is the "NETACP" process which requires the. "PRIMARY" capability.o  C      If there was a problem with CPU 00 (the primary) this would, IsC assume, cause NETACP to enter a RWCAP state.   Could this cause thetA proliferation of the NET_nnnnn processes I described above?   AndbF could this also lead to the node leaving the cluster and hence, a lossE of quorum which would place the remaining processes into RWCAP as the  became COMputable.   Thanks Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:09:39 +0530w5 From: "Sandeep Yelwatkar" <Sandeep_Yelwatkar@bmc.com>  Subject: PSDC data/ Message-ID: <v6rt5b1s8ls5ff@corp.supernews.com>e   Hi All,i  K A little away from openvms, this is regarding the Polycenter data collectors on VAX system.  K I have the performance data file collected using Polycenter data collector. L It is in binary format. It is possible to know the duration during which the& data was collected from the data file?   Any help is most appreciated.    Thanks Sandeepe   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:44:46 -0500u% From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@hp.com>o Subject: Re: PSDC data& Message-ID: <3E6E127E.60942F2D@hp.com>  E The files have the date of the collection in their file name.  As forn8 the times that are in the file I would do the following 2 	Example : .CPC file for node APPLE on 04-MAR-2003- $ ADVISE COLLECT REPORT DUMP_CPU/NODE=APPLE -tC   /BEG=04-MAR:00:00:00.00/END=05-MAR:00:00:00.00 /OUT=NLA0:JUNK.DATg  G If there were any time periods skipped for whatever reason you will gett a Missing Data warning.i   Sandeep Yelwatkar wrote: > 	 > Hi All,  > M > A little away from openvms, this is regarding the Polycenter data collectorP > on VAX system. > M > I have the performance data file collected using Polycenter data collector. N > It is in binary format. It is possible to know the duration during which the( > data was collected from the data file? >  > Any help is most appreciated.e >  > Thanks	 > Sandeepd   -- iC Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NYe0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan+ 	- Mark.Jilson@hp.com				- since 1975 or soe 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 07:13:41 -0800r1 From: "Farrell, Michael" <MFarrell@voltdelta.com>>@ Subject: RE: Setting SRM console variables from within OpenVMS ?P Message-ID: <025766C9BBC5D511A4ED00B0D0F08C23163A77@zny_exchange1.maintech1.com>   Fred,r  H You published this program a while back.  We have a need to try it here.  L There are two "#include" files that may be missing on my system.  Where do I
 find them?  	 They are:a   #include <hwrpbdef.h>s #include <vms_macros.h>e   TIA    Mike Farrell mfarrell@voltdelta.com      -----Original Message-----eD From: 	Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.enet.dec_nospam.com] ' Sent:	Tuesday, August 10, 1999 12:23 PM  To:	Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comu@ Subject:	Re: Setting SRM console variables from within OpenVMS ?   Chris King wrote:  > F > Does anyone know if there is a VMS equivalent of the Tru64 "consvar"( > command to set SRM console variables ? > H > I'm trying to find a way of automating standalone system disk backups,I > so I can perform them more regularly, and at times when users aren't on  > the machine. >      Enjoy...  = /* DEFAULT_BOOT -- reads environment variable bootdef_dev ando4  * writes its value to environment variable boot_dev [snip]   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 11 Mar 03 11:10:31 GMTn From: jmfbahciv@aol.comnY Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdah+ Message-ID: <b4kisp$2oc$2@bob.news.rcn.net>f  8 In article <ejoq6vs88tfc1ips2mlnriq8mat81oeqvc@4ax.com>,+    John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote:t >Mark Hittinger wrote: >dE >We had some DN87 boxes on our KL and they did have ANF-10 support onf >DMC-11 devices but not DECnet.a >gE >There are also several other configurations of the -11 stuff that weoC >can build for the simulators.  Everything has been recovered so we C >could build the other configurations (except perhaps WIZARD!). :-)i >.* >In chk11.p11 there are some symbols like: >l4 >        ND      FT.D75,0        ; NO DC75 IN SYSTEM4 >        ND      FT.D80,0        ; NO DN80 IN SYSTEM4 >        ND      FT.D81,0        ; NO DN81 IN SYSTEM4 >        ND      FT.D82,0        ; NO DN82 IN SYSTEM4 >        ND      FT.D85,0        ; NO DN85 IN SYSTEM4 >        ND      FT.D87,0        ; NO DN87 IN SYSTEM5 >        ND      FT.87S,0        ; NO DN87S IN SYSTEMs4 >        ND      FT.D20,0        ; NO DN20 IN SYSTEM4 >        ND      FT.D22,0        ; NO DN22 IN SYSTEM5 >        ND      FT.200,0        ; NO DN200 IN SYSTEMa >i >John Sauter responded:y >r7 >I think the DN20 was the DECnet front end, but I couldn5 >be misremembering this also.  Was the DN200 a remoteY7 >PDP-11-based concentrator, with printer and terminals?h > < >I am disappointed that the DN60 is not on the list.  It was: >a separate product, but I tried to arrange to include the- >PDP-11 assembly language sources on the kit.>    @ But your code would be in that file, John.  IIRC, the IBM optionB was a whole different can of worms than ANF-10.  And I don't think? anybody put the DN60 stuff on the monitor distribution tape; itb@ had to be bought.  We did include the monitor stub for it on theE general distribution, but not the DN60 PDP-11 files.  That's probablyeB another tape that got shitcanned when Release Engineering's office got cleaned out.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.n   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 11 Mar 03 11:07:43 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.commY Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdai+ Message-ID: <b4kini$2oc$1@bob.news.rcn.net>g  , In article <dT1ba.29645$eG2.5342@sccrnsc03>,&    bugs@pu.net (Mark Hittinger) wrote:* >John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> writes: >>John Sauter wrote:3 >>The DN87, if I remember correctly, did DECnet and < >>served as a terminal concentrator.  If that is more useful6 >>to you, by all means use it.  I recommended the DN608 >>series because I had worked on it when I was with DEC. > E >We had some DN87 boxes on our KL and they did have ANF-10 support onf >DMC-11 devices but not DECnet.   @ TOPS-10's first DECnet ship went on the MCB whateverthehell that@ was in hardware.  It's second DECnet ship provided the option of= dropping that crap (IMO just because I had to build it beforey@ putting it on the very expensive tape) and putting DECnet on theC ethernet.  Ethernet implementations made DECnet usable and bootablea? (again, my opinion based on the fact that I had to certify it).t= I never certified DECnet through the DN87.  That hardware rana? stuff that could run without a gazillion instructions/character + stroke (again, only my uneducated opinion).i  A The work that should be done, if anything gets done, is to do theiB unfinished project of making the KS an end node (this is TOPS-10).? Bill didn't have time to do it in 7.03; after that, idiots took B over and office politics became more important.  It was on my listA of things to put in the project plan for 7.05 (the real 7.05 and >@ not the maintenance release that got shipped under that name).     <snip>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.s   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 04:52:45 -0800( From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut)Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdat< Message-ID: <c5cf6e8.0303110452.7c61cf93@posting.google.com>  t Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote in message news:<9adn6v82f47mt7j1f71so40ddbqvrmcneh@4ax.com>...B > On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 07:42:34 -0500 in alt.sys.pdp11, John Sauter > <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote: >  > >John Sauter writes: > >>: > >I don't believe you can have more than one RSX20F-based; > >PDP-11 on a KL10.  I recommend running the DN60 software> > >on the other three. > >f > >Eric Smith wrote: > >>= > >Wouldn't DN87 software typically be useful to more people?l > >i > >John Sauter responded:n > >r4 > >The DN87, if I remember correctly, did DECnet and= > >served as a terminal concentrator.  If that is more usefulm7 > >to you, by all means use it.  I recommended the DN60t9 > >series because I had worked on it when I was with DEC.e( > >    John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) > B > Would only be useful if you could set it up talking to a process0 > running Hercules with simulated bisync lines.  > ; > Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canadau  F Are simulated networked mainframe datacenters made of virtual big iron2 becoming the "model railroad" of the 21st century?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:15:24 +0100d* From: Morten Reistad <mrr@reistad.priv.no>Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdad/ Message-ID: <chnk4b.k97.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>o  0 According to Baby Peanut <baby_p_nut@yahoo.com>:u >Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote in message news:<9adn6v82f47mt7j1f71so40ddbqvrmcneh@4ax.com>...sC >> On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 07:42:34 -0500 in alt.sys.pdp11, John Sauter  >> <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote:> >>   >> >John Sauter writes:> >> > [snip}C >> Would only be useful if you could set it up talking to a processl1 >> running Hercules with simulated bisync lines. d >> a< >> Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada >EG >Are simulated networked mainframe datacenters made of virtual big iron 3 >becoming the "model railroad" of the 21st century?v  ( Seems a high model railroad factor here.  = If we want to build a really big model railroad we can set upsD a cluster of emulated machines with a virtual box on each continent.   -- mrr   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 07:35:40 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)sY Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda 3 Message-ID: <NxXtMXg+BcjG@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  b In article <ejoq6vs88tfc1ips2mlnriq8mat81oeqvc@4ax.com>, John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> writes: > 8 > I think the DN20 was the DECnet front end, but I could > be misremembering this also.  E    On our 2050 and 2060 the PDP 11/34A DECnet front end was known as      DN20.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:45:50 GMTa" From: bugs@pu.net (Mark Hittinger)Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda1= Message-ID: <yEmba.47576$sf5.32377@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>t  * baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) writes:G >Are simulated networked mainframe datacenters made of virtual big irona3 >becoming the "model railroad" of the 21st century?l  1 Not until the virtual halon support is ready! :-)o   Later>   Mark Hittinger bugs@pu.netb   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 09:51:37 -0500a From: TLH 858 <@.>Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdae8 Message-ID: <kfsr6vgg0a7401vob1jc2u91d1so6svqbn@4ax.com>   John Sauter seems to have said:>   >John Sauter wrote:m >h2 >The DN87, if I remember correctly, did DECnet and; >served as a terminal concentrator.  If that is more usefulh5 >to you, by all means use it.  I recommended the DN60f7 >series because I had worked on it when I was with DEC.u  D The DN87 did ANF, not DECnet.  May you rot in hell for implying thatD ANF-10 used DECnet.  There was a DECnet Phase 2 "compatibility port"D module for it, but it was very limited in what it did, since DECnet,4 at that time, was far, far behind what ANF could do.  E The software that ran in the ANF systems was, by and large, the same, A the only difference being what types of devices were installed ass options.  1 DN80, 81, and 82 were 11/40's, 1 or more DQ-11's.l  D IIRC, the 81 was a card reader and line printer, the 80 had DH-11's,F and the 82 had both.  It was a "remote" system.  HOSS, for example hadD a DN82 connected to one of the DN87's on 1026, via a 19.2 short haul modem.  E Th 85 and 87 both were connected to a DL-10, the 85 was optioned withlD DQ-11's, the DN87 with up to 8 DH-11's.  In reality, many DN87's hadF both DQ's and DH's.  The only hardware difference between the DN87 andD the DC76 was you could find a DN87 with DQ's while you wouldn't on aA DC76.  Same hardware, completely different software.  Same as theg) DN6x.  Same hardware, different software.   C The 87s was like the 87, but used the DTE rather than the DL-10. It @ did not support "master DTE" functions, e.g. it could not margin, power, load microcode, step the KL cpu, etc.  > To build a DN87s with card reader and line printer support was trivial.  C The DN2xx systems were 11/34 based, and developed because the 11/40gE had been end-of-lifed.  "Development" was somewhat trivial, IIRC, theeC only thing being to add some code to CHK-11 to check for and reporte the CPU type correctly.o  F It was possible, and even easy, to build a DN87 with DZ's and DH's, as* well as mixed Sync lines of various types.   >s >Brian Inglis wrote: >fA >Would only be useful if you could set it up talking to a processd/ >running Hercules with simulated bisync lines. P >s >John Sauter responded:i >e9 >The DN60 series drove its bisync lines using the DUP-11,s9 >optionally assisted by the KMC-11.  You could use a nullr4 >modem with synchronous clock to communicate between7 >two DN60s.  That's how we debugged before we got real t! >IBM hardware.  What is Hercules?l& >    John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)   --g "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen."a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 09:53:40 -0500c From: TLH 858 <@.>Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda 8 Message-ID: <i1ur6vcfiefoqdul2ild7b5mpfvbp0g5mu@4ax.com>  % jmfbahciv@aol.com seems to have said:e  > >I never certified DECnet through the DN87.  That hardware ran@ >stuff that could run without a gazillion instructions/character, >stroke (again, only my uneducated opinion).   I did the certification. --g "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen."j   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 11 Mar 03 14:07:15 GMTt From: jmfbahciv@aol.comrY Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdae+ Message-ID: <b4kt83$rq0$1@bob.news.rcn.net>y  = In article <yEmba.47576$sf5.32377@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>,m&    bugs@pu.net (Mark Hittinger) wrote:+ >baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut) writes:kH >>Are simulated networked mainframe datacenters made of virtual big iron4 >>becoming the "model railroad" of the 21st century? > 2 >Not until the virtual halon support is ready! :-)   [emoticon breathes in gas]   All set.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 09:10:26 -0600 + From: "John R. Strohm" <strohm@airmail.net>nY Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda O Message-ID: <900F77786A5666CB.31508C5EF09722E2.997CFF0B3D9C6169@lp.airnews.net>n  5 "Baby Peanut" <baby_p_nut@yahoo.com> wrote in message-6 news:c5cf6e8.0303110452.7c61cf93@posting.google.com...A > Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote in message 4 news:<9adn6v82f47mt7j1f71so40ddbqvrmcneh@4ax.com>...D > > On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 07:42:34 -0500 in alt.sys.pdp11, John Sauter  > > <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote: > >e > > >John Sauter writes: > > > < > > >I don't believe you can have more than one RSX20F-based= > > >PDP-11 on a KL10.  I recommend running the DN60 softwareo > > >on the other three. > > >d > > >Eric Smith wrote: > > >e? > > >Wouldn't DN87 software typically be useful to more people?d > > >t > > >John Sauter responded:" > > >h6 > > >The DN87, if I remember correctly, did DECnet and? > > >served as a terminal concentrator.  If that is more usefuls9 > > >to you, by all means use it.  I recommended the DN602; > > >series because I had worked on it when I was with DEC.m* > > >    John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) > >3D > > Would only be useful if you could set it up talking to a process1 > > running Hercules with simulated bisync lines.- > >-< > > Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada >eH > Are simulated networked mainframe datacenters made of virtual big iron4 > becoming the "model railroad" of the 21st century?  J Well, the nice thing about it is that it gives people more experience with! halfway decent systems and tools.   G It might even inspire someone to do a decent operating system for a PC.-   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 11 Mar 03 14:59:16 GMTn From: jmfbahciv@aol.com)Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda1+ Message-ID: <b4l09l$rq0$8@bob.news.rcn.net>   8 In article <i1ur6vcfiefoqdul2ild7b5mpfvbp0g5mu@4ax.com>,    TLH 858 <@.> wrote:& >jmfbahciv@aol.com seems to have said: > ? >>I never certified DECnet through the DN87.  That hardware rancA >>stuff that could run without a gazillion instructions/characters- >>stroke (again, only my uneducated opinion).  >0 >I did the certification..  2 <grin>  Be careful, you'll get to do the next one.  > I'm positive that I never put the name, TLH 858 <@., in my= certification plan.  I'm positive because there was no way inf= hell that RUNOFF could generate those funny characters, usingd my fingers and my terminal.N  = You didn't certify DECnet through the DN87, unless you hackedp; the 87 to look like a DECnet node to fool the certifiers...o= [emoticon hastily adds]but I don't wanna know about it if you = did.  That is a job that I fully expect come back and bite met, in the ass; so ignorance is the best policy.  ? And I have no idea who you are :-).  [emoticon thinks a little]i0 Perhaps I don't wanna know that either.  ;-)))))   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.n   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 11 Mar 03 15:01:30 GMT- From: jmfbahciv@aol.com0Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdai+ Message-ID: <b4l0dq$rq0$9@bob.news.rcn.net>4   In article pD <900F77786A5666CB.31508C5EF09722E2.997CFF0B3D9C6169@lp.airnews.net>,/    "John R. Strohm" <strohm@airmail.net> wrote:i6 >"Baby Peanut" <baby_p_nut@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 >news:c5cf6e8.0303110452.7c61cf93@posting.google.com...rB >> Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote in message5 >news:<9adn6v82f47mt7j1f71so40ddbqvrmcneh@4ax.com>... E >> > On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 07:42:34 -0500 in alt.sys.pdp11, John SauterE! >> > <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote:r >> > >> > >John Sauter writes:  >> > >= >> > >I don't believe you can have more than one RSX20F-based > >> > >PDP-11 on a KL10.  I recommend running the DN60 software >> > >on the other three.A >> > > >> > >Eric Smith wrote:. >> > >@ >> > >Wouldn't DN87 software typically be useful to more people? >> > > >> > >John Sauter responded: >> > >7 >> > >The DN87, if I remember correctly, did DECnet andr@ >> > >served as a terminal concentrator.  If that is more useful: >> > >to you, by all means use it.  I recommended the DN60< >> > >series because I had worked on it when I was with DEC.+ >> > >    John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)e >> >E >> > Would only be useful if you could set it up talking to a process 2 >> > running Hercules with simulated bisync lines. >> >= >> > Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canadal >>I >> Are simulated networked mainframe datacenters made of virtual big ironn5 >> becoming the "model railroad" of the 21st century?  >rK >Well, the nice thing about it is that it gives people more experience withk" >halfway decent systems and tools. >tH >It might even inspire someone to do a decent operating system for a PC.  = It will be worth it if somebody learns about the existence ofOC buffered mode I/O and that memory management is, not only possible,Y: but desirable.  Oh, and that bit-sprayers are really bugs.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.e   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:57:21 +0100 (MET)h9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>o" Subject: Re: TCPIP: bug or feature; Message-ID: <01KTEDCWT13M9FRD0S@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   I > > Thus, "Incoming messages arrive at an interface and are processed" is E > > not what I see, if "processed" means that a working connection is' > > established. > G > If the acknowledgement for the incoming connection goes out the wrongnD > way, it may not get there and you won't have a working connection.  I Right.  That is the problem.  If a connection comes in through interface -G A, it makes no sense to send an acknowledgement over interface B, even uE if the default route goes through interface B.  Thus, one has to set eH routes for incoming connections if they are supposed to use interface A.  H > Your machine has two different IP addresses. The ISDN related address H > should not go through the dsl side since the dsl provider may not let I > anything go through accept your assigned dsl address. The fact that you I > are using nat on the DSL side complicates things since your nat router fI > may not know what to do with the non-natted address (the isdn address).H  F Actually, I just let the private addresses through the DSL router and D the public ones through the ISDN router.  I CAN let the public ones D through the DSL router---no problem, they get translated to the WAN F address of the DSL router---, I just have to set up a static route to E the public (sub)network so that the DSL router realises it can reach o them.h  J > If a machine tries to use the 192 address to get out from the isdn side,L > it will (should) be blocked by the isdn provider since the private (192..)& > addres is not legal on the internet.   Right.  H > I did not solve it except by assigning different network addresses andJ > routings (default) gateways to each machine based on it network address.  D Yes, that is a workaround: different machines in a cluster can have I completely different TCPIP paths to the outside world, but still be in a  I shared-everything cluster.  Nice.  However, once one splits up a cluster e= this way, one can't use the TCPIP cluster alias for failover.o  G Which reminds me: what are the restrictions on a TCPIP cluster alias?  nI Could the machines which use it have their other addresses on completely A separate networks?   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:08:05 +0100 (MET)o9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>e" Subject: Re: TCPIP: bug or feature; Message-ID: <01KTEDKJLJNG9FRD0S@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>e  I > What you could do is to find out what block of IPs your ISP #2 has. You.J > then build a route for all those IPs via the interface going to ISP #2'sH > router. At least customers of your #2 ISP would be able to talk to you > via that interface.   G I've thought of this.  However, my ISP (1&1, one of the larger ISPs in vE Germany (who also have better service and better rates than Deutsche oD Telekom, the other biggy---I do have my physical DSL connection via B Deutsche Telekom, though, since other alternatives are a lot more H expensive) seems to have several, non-contiguous blocks of IP addresses D (with millions (I think) of customers, and with most large networks 3 having been assigned long ago, they would have to).F  J > NAT isn't a perfect solution. It is a stop-gap measure to circumvent theF > silly restrictions imposed by ISPs to differenciate from residentialG > customers (competitive) and business customers (milked with very highf > internet costs). E  D Actually, though increase bandwidth is nice, and the fact that a DSL? connection via a NAT/PAT router is now "off-the-shelf" (meaninglA competition has lowered prices dramatically in the last couple ofgF years), the main reason I am moving to DSL is to save costs.  With my H ISDN connection, I had a "real" internet connection---static, public IP H addresses.  The ISDN router doesn't do NAT or PAT (though it CAN do NAT I if one needs it), it just converts ethernet to ISDN traffic and dials my 1E ISP on demand.  My ISP also dials me on demand, so the connection is dF actually up only when it is needed, though it feels like it is always I up, since the ISDN dialing process is rather quick.  However, even so it  E is too expensive.  With DSL, I can afford to stay logged in remotely eG even if I don't need the connection, and it is faster.  While the ISDN  H connection was fast enough for some things (I can't type faster than 64 B kbit/s!), the DSL connection allows comfortable use of DECwindows.  C A disadvantage of this kind of connection is that there is only oneTE address visible to the outside world.  However, since I just have the F TCPIP cluster alias as the only address which the outside world shouldC use, this is fine---I just have the router forward all ports to thepE TCPIP cluster alias.  Once inside, I can set host (LAT, DECnet when I2E finally get around to installing it) or telnet to another node.  (OneaE router I have has the possibility to change the port while forwardingcI it, so I could have port 60023, say, go to port 23 on a specific machine   etc.)    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:11:26 +0100 (MET)m9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> " Subject: Re: TCPIP: bug or feature; Message-ID: <01KTEE08JZ7M9FRD0S@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   E > In a normal comemrcial environment, it is perfectly natural to haveaI > inbound requests come in via router1 and come out via router2, but withs% > the same IP address for your host. M > G > NAT makes things difficult because the IP address gets changed by theaI > router so you don't appear to be the same host from the internet side. a  H Right.  To avoid a single point of failure if for no other reason, more H than one router on a network is a good idea.  The whole problems I have H is not that there is more than one router, but rather that they are not @ on the same logical network (they are on the same physical LAN).   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 07:32:44 GMT ' From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>n Subject: Re: unixi) Message-ID: <3E6D8ADE.60CE7EC8@yahoo.com>    "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote:i >  ... snip ... > @ > I've got a paper under review on the economics involved at the > moment; you can find it at >n; > http://slytherin.ds.psu.edu/hawk/research/Open_Source.pdfi  B That is almost completely illegible under Acroread 4.05.  Slightly; better with Ghostview, but still foul.  What do people havee against text? or even HTML.o   -- a< Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net);    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.o:    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>  USE worldnet address!   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:38:56 +0000 (UTC)t8 From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Subject: Re: unix-- Message-ID: <b4kse0$nrq$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>   ' In article <3E6CF108.3E55CE6B@ev1.net>, + Charles Richmond  <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:a  >"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote:  ; >> In article <168j6vghakh5k494puvjo9776jj6n07j17@4ax.com>,o9 >> Brian Inglis  <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:s  E >> >Had Apple built a Mac that could run TCP/IP, instead of LocalTalkoA >> >and then EtherTalk, who knows which PC platform would be mosti >> >popular now?  H >> nah.  If Apple has proven *anything*, it's that if you build a betterB >> mousetrap, it's still possible to beat the world away from your
 >> door . . .e   >And still stay in business...  B Yeah, that's as odd as the rest . . . and don't forget to inclulde4 returning to profitability and a soaring stock . . .   hawk -- hK Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaigneG dochawk@psu.edu  Smeal 178  (814) 375-4700      \ /   against HTML mailaD These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 6 Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \      ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:48:52 +0000 (UTC)B8 From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Subject: Re: unixM- Message-ID: <b4kt0k$nrq$2@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>j  ) In article <3E6D8ADE.60CE7EC8@yahoo.com>,p0 CBFalconer  <cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net> wrote:  >"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote:  
 >... snip .../  A >> I've got a paper under review on the economics involved at thes >> moment; you can find it atS  < >> http://slytherin.ds.psu.edu/hawk/research/Open_Source.pdf  C >That is almost completely illegible under Acroread 4.05.  Slightlya< >better with Ghostview, but still foul.  What do people have >against text? or even HTML.   And we come full circle :)  H That one has very few equations in it, unlike almost everything I do.  IB used to put things up in postscript, but trying to teach people toE install ghostview took just too much time.  I eventually threw in the.H towel and wend to the evil .pdf.  That file is latex in Kluwer's article6 class, which then took trips through dvips and ps2pdf.  C I put copies of some things up in html, but the conversion tends too munge equations.  : I can put the plain postscript up if anyoen is interested.   hawk     -- aK Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaigniG dochawk@psu.edu  Smeal 178  (814) 375-4700      \ /   against HTML maileD These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 6 Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \      ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 11 Mar 03 14:39:21 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.com  Subject: Re: unixb+ Message-ID: <b4kv4a$rq0$5@bob.news.rcn.net>e  - In article <b4j17d$9ic$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>,l<    hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:H >In article <b4ibsd$313$8@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:/ >>In article <b4iam6$nqo$3@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>,m> >>   hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >e? >>>>Sigh!  I understand this.  None of these people will sign a ? >>>>contract with an interested user site to guarantee support.p >oC >>>Just off the cuff, IBM, Oracle, and Red Hat sell such contracts.3 >1/ >>But I didn't think their code is open source.t > F >Which code?  IBM has gone for open source in a *big* way, and I'm not@ >sure that Red Hat even *has* any code any more that isn't open.  A It certainly is likely that I have a complete misunderstand about"< Open Source.  I had presumed that, since I had to buy RedHat1 off the shelf, that it was no longer Open Source.e   >t >>Or are they trying ,' >>to be in the software services biz?    >iI >Oh, yes.  Definitely.  All three actively seek to sell support contracts- >for open source software.  ; Uh-oh.  That can detract big time from development and R&D.j >:> >IBM even dumped their own web servers in favor of Apache, and >contributes massively.l > = >It makes economic sense--contributing to open source for thesI >"commodity" portions of what they sell is much less expensive than going 
 >it alone. >mI >Anyway, those three large companies, and many others, will sell you 24/7s, >support for all kinds of open source stuff. >wG >I've got a paper under review on the economics involved at the moment;t >you can find it ate: >http://slytherin.ds.psu.edu/hawk/research/Open_Source.pdf  : Next time I'm at the library.  The last time I set down to; oogle the net, everything, and I mean everything I tried to : look at crashed.  Then I came home and everything I tried > to look at here crashed.  I'm never going to put my den mother hat on again. ;-)    /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.t   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 11 Mar 03 14:41:43 GMTa From: jmfbahciv@aol.comi Subject: Re: unixe+ Message-ID: <b4kv8n$rq0$6@bob.news.rcn.net>t  - In article <b4kse0$nrq$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>,a<    hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:( >In article <3E6CF108.3E55CE6B@ev1.net>,, >Charles Richmond  <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:! >>"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote:u >w< >>> In article <168j6vghakh5k494puvjo9776jj6n07j17@4ax.com>,: >>> Brian Inglis  <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote: > F >>> >Had Apple built a Mac that could run TCP/IP, instead of LocalTalkB >>> >and then EtherTalk, who knows which PC platform would be most >>> >popular now?a >iI >>> nah.  If Apple has proven *anything*, it's that if you build a bettersC >>> mousetrap, it's still possible to beat the world away from yourt >>> door . . . >t >>And still stay in business...d >oC >Yeah, that's as odd as the rest . . . and don't forget to incluldeh5 >returning to profitability and a soaring stock . . .  >c  : When everybody is frantic to buy tulips, who checks to see if it's a dahlia?-   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.3   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 11 Mar 03 14:33:55 GMTD From: jmfbahciv@aol.com5 Subject: Re: unixr+ Message-ID: <b4kuq4$rq0$4@bob.news.rcn.net>o  8 In article <h1hq6v0bbtb3mrfcn73jk4s4p0p4479ib0@4ax.com>,1    David Powell <ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk> wrote:l/ >In article <b4i2t5$9u2$12@bob.news.rcn.net>,  n5 > jmfbahciv@aol.com  in alt.folklore.computers wrote:i <snip>   >>578 doesn't sound right. >> >aG >Nevertheless it is. The 18 and 36 bit format was for 1102(8) blocks of-G >400(8) 18(10) bit words.  Throw away two bits per word (3 bit nybbles)rC >and you get 578(10) * 512(10) bytes for a 16bitter.  Alternatively6D >2702(8) blocks of 201(8)  12(10) bit words. Surely you remember the% >label on a "certified" DECtape, :-) h <snip>  ; When I was in Tape Prep, we handed a lot of the work we didn< back via DECtape.  It was important to ZERO DTA0: on the -10> side and also do a FILEX zero of the directory on the -11 side= of the DECtape.  And the zeroing had to be done on both sidesw; before copying the work to the tape.  The way we checked tod; make sure that the -11 side was done was to do a DIR of it.m: There was a magic block number that told us if the zeroing@ had been done or not.  That's why your 578 number didn't _sound_6 right.  But, for the lifeofme, I can't remember why.  > Perhaps the 578 is what you got from a DIR when it tape hadn't been zeroed.    < [glum emoticon] Now I bet somebody is going to tell me that = all of this was a procedure based on a myth produced by a bugC! that had been fixed years before.      /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.M   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Mar 2003 17:48:12 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: unix36 Message-ID: <b4l7gr$1vic71$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  + In article <b4kv4a$rq0$5@bob.news.rcn.net>,v 	jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > C > It certainly is likely that I have a complete misunderstand aboutn> > Open Source.  I had presumed that, since I had to buy RedHat3 > off the shelf, that it was no longer Open Source.n  @ You don't "have to" buy RedHat off the shelf.  You may choose to? do so for convenience, but the ISO's are still available if youhA wish to roll your own.  You even get some level of update servicen
 with them.  J >>Oh, yes.  Definitely.  All three actively seek to sell support contracts >>for open source software.1 > = > Uh-oh.  That can detract big time from development and R&D.o   Why?   bill   -- nJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   p   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:50:32 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?; Message-ID: <01KTED7DISLE9FRD0S@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>-  F >   As I expect you know, this configuration -- VAX and Alpha systems D >   on the same SCSI bus, sharing disk accesses -- is not supported.  G Isn't it even the case that shared SCSI disks are not supported on VAX  $ at all, i.e. even between two VAXes?  D Apart from a quorum disk, which has to have a physical connection toB more than one machine, are the only two reasons for doing this (asH opposed to MSCP serving the disks) a) to allow faster access (fast wide I SCSI being faster than 10 Mbit/s LAN with lots of traffic other than SCS fD on it) and b) to allow more than one machine to share a system disk?   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:51:31 GMT1, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com>$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?? Message-ID: <nZkba.111584$gf7.23946341@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>   < Damn engineers are always taking the fun out of things.  :-)  I I didn't say *I* was actually going to try it yet, just looking to see ifN *anyone else* had tried it yet..  E Theoretically, at least, everything you learned after that "extensiveNL engineering work" could have been applied to the VAX flavor of VMS by now ifF it had been important to someone.  Considering that Compaq adopted theI Nemonix UltraSCSI controller (KZCCA-xx) and advertised how great that waseL for shops that were married to the VAX, one might think Compaq would realizeL how great it'd be for VAX/Alpha cluster shops to share drives over their new/ found UltraSCSI bus (and old SE SCSI, as well).n  J I suspect whatever changes were made to the Alpha DK/EK/PK/whatever driverC could be ported relatively easily to the VAX DK/DU/whatever driver.oG Particularly since there's so much similar (I'd think) work in the DSSIaE sharing logic which is incorporated into both the VAX and Alpha VMS'.oJ Certainly, anything that was done above the driver level to support sharedK SCSI on Alpha should be fairly easy to back-port to VAX/VMS.  (And what wase that about a single code base?)e  K Will OpenVMS/Itanium support shared SCSI in clusters?  How difficult was itH' to include that in the Itanium drivers?l  0 "Hoff Hoffman" <hoff@hp.nospam> wrote in message) news:Oteba.166$rf3.71@news.cpqcorp.net....H > In article <Zhbba.101194$gf7.22162767@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, "Frank' Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> writes:nE > :Has anyone attempted to share SCSI devices between a VAX and Alpha3 system?g > ..L > :Would that behave correctly, and would the lock manager figure it out, or is > :it just asking for trouble? >e$ >   I vote for "asking for trouble". > J >   We performed extensive engineering work around the addition of support) >   for multi-host SCSI on OpenVMS Alpha.u >IE >   As I expect you know, this configuration -- VAX and Alpha systemsoD >   on the same SCSI bus, sharing disk accesses -- is not supported. >tC >   As I also expect you know, "not supported" means "we don't havet8 >   to explain why", and reasons can and do vary widely. >oF >   If you feel inclined to try this, please make sure you have a goodB >   BACKUP/IMAGE of all of your disks before you proceed with this >   particular experiment. >  >e( >  ---------------------------- #include' <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------rL >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com, >  --------------------------- pure personal# opinion --------------------------- G >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.coms >n   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:04:01 GMTs, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com>$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?? Message-ID: <59lba.111647$gf7.23981138@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>t  I Yes, the HSZ drives are currently "owned" by the Alpha and MSCP-served toeF the VAX, and yes, there's a concern about the performance and DSSI/LAND traffic.  The quorum disk is currently on the DSSI bus.  There is noI possibility of sharing the system disk anyway (VAX/Alpha can't share bootP drives, if I'm not mistaken).4  L The other piece of the puzzle is an attempt to squeeze every bit of life outK of the VAX as possible.  It's sole purpose at this time is to run a certainsI application which was never ported to Alpha, and the cost of replacing itnH currently exceeds the client's desire to stop using the damn thing.  (ItH works, they know how to use it, and the more they continue to use it the' deeper a hole they dig for themselves.)a  J Oh, and yes, I believe shared SCSI on VAX is not supported at all, whether  it's VAX-to-VAX or VAX-to-Alpha.  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KTED7DISLE9FRD0S@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...rG > >   As I expect you know, this configuration -- VAX and Alpha systemsrF > >   on the same SCSI bus, sharing disk accesses -- is not supported. >tH > Isn't it even the case that shared SCSI disks are not supported on VAX& > at all, i.e. even between two VAXes? >EF > Apart from a quorum disk, which has to have a physical connection toD > more than one machine, are the only two reasons for doing this (asI > opposed to MSCP serving the disks) a) to allow faster access (fast wideeJ > SCSI being faster than 10 Mbit/s LAN with lots of traffic other than SCSF > on it) and b) to allow more than one machine to share a system disk?   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 05:57:11 -0800) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young):$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?< Message-ID: <55f85d77.0303110557.8afa30d@posting.google.com>  Z hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote in message news:<Oteba.166$rf3.71@news.cpqcorp.net>...p > In article <Zhbba.101194$gf7.22162767@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> writes:M > :Has anyone attempted to share SCSI devices between a VAX and Alpha system?  >  ..oO > :Would that behave correctly, and would the lock manager figure it out, or ist > :it just asking for trouble? > $ >   I vote for "asking for trouble".  
 Very true,  C I have not tried between an Alpha and VAX, however I would think itd all comes down to sharing....s  < I have a TL891 hooked up through a SCSI bus originating with@ an XP1000 (OpenVMS), looped through an 8400 (Tru64) and a Compaq proliant running Window(tm) NT.d  C The respective backups run fine, just don't reboot a computer whilea* another computer has a backup in progress.  , It actually works *really* well in practice.  / Sorry - I know we are *far* *too* cheap :-) :-)e  : Moving to a more sensible SAN based solution. BTW - *VERY* impressed with our RA8000.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:43:07 -0400g0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?/ Message-ID: <3E6DF5F7.2BCE99FD@vl.videotron.ca>D   Hoff Hoffman wrote:cC >   As I also expect you know, "not supported" means "we don't haveD8 >   to explain why", and reasons can and do vary widely.  " Even if the customer asks nicely ?  G What if you have the biggest customer come to you and ask you about theRM implications of VAX and Alpha sharing a SCSI bus ? Would your reaction be the1M same ? Or would you explain to them under what circumstances it *might* work,y9 and under what circumstances you know it would not work ?i  N Once the caveat of "this is not supported and *if* it works today, it may failN tomorrow" is agreed upon, what is wrong with giving out informal information ?  M It would be intesresting to learn about the differences between VAX and Alpha1- version of VMS in terms of SCSI handling etc.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:47:33 GMTV/ From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks)v$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?- Message-ID: <gUMh66uyz9pc@cuebid.zko.dec.com>e  . "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> writes:  9 > Will OpenVMS/Itanium support shared SCSI in clusters?  e 	No.   --    M Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.como   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:15:39 +0000 (UTC)f) From: Dan Foster <dsf@globalcrossing.net>e$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?5 Message-ID: <slrnb6s2t7.go5.dsf@gaia.tf.roc.gblx.net>   a In article <3E6DF5F7.2BCE99FD@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:t > Hoff Hoffman wrote:aD >>   As I also expect you know, "not supported" means "we don't have9 >>   to explain why", and reasons can and do vary widely.' >1$ > Even if the customer asks nicely ?  J Well, I am indeed curious as to the technical limitations -- not because IJ want to do it, but because I was unfortunate enough to be born curious :-)  I > What if you have the biggest customer come to you and ask you about thenO > implications of VAX and Alpha sharing a SCSI bus ? Would your reaction be the1O > same ? Or would you explain to them under what circumstances it *might* work,c; > and under what circumstances you know it would not work ?t >QP > Once the caveat of "this is not supported and *if* it works today, it may failP > tomorrow" is agreed upon, what is wrong with giving out informal information ?  J Legal reasons in the U.S. generally prevents that; we've had that issue atE work before and worked through it with the legal counsel to a logicalcK (legal) conclusion that was not to the engineers' personal liking, but suchrK is the facts of life here in a litigative society. Someone once even wantedgD to sue us over a legal interpretation by a *SINGLE WORD* spoken in a= recorded phone message, by referring to our support people asd4 'representatives' rather than by some other term...!  G From personal experience in supporting setups... it just simply doesn'tlI work out that way in reality that if both understands it's an unsupporteduH thing but proceed to give information, that they *won't* sue the companyH for problems, raise an huge stink, or demand support eventually, anyway.G The simplest solution is simply to not discuss how something *might* beMH possible, and just stick with the script. Unfortunate, as that is... andG yes, we've had too many problems when we tried that in actual practice.h  G An employee acting in good faith, in ordinary business practices may be C shielded from lawsuits (and usually is...but not always); but if an F employee violates the employer's policies, he/she may be fired or heldH directly culpable if the customer gets upset and sues over a nasty mess.  K The amount of money involved in defending yourself in a legal suit when the H employer has abandoned you can force people into bankruptcy and possible@ homelessness, even if you 'win'; it's really not worth the risk.  = ...and then there may be employer policies regarding customerl@ communications, especially if they are talking about unsupportedJ interfaces, of which he might be either ethically or practically reluctantE to publically subvert. It's one of these things that is probably best C handled one-on-one over dinner and beer (or beverage of choice) :-)   K The way I would have done it is to privately ask about some of the problems I preventing that setup, if you were really curious, rather than asking hownE it might be possible to make it work (puts employee at too much legalmJ risk). If the employee declines to discuss that, accept it and move on for the sake of goodwill.a  O > It would be intesresting to learn about the differences between VAX and Alpha / > version of VMS in terms of SCSI handling etc.e   Yes, it would.   -Dan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:34:41 +0100h" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>P Subject: Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses6 Message-ID: <b4la7q$21pb1p$2@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>  H "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> schreef in bericht5 news:01KTD7Z0WAA09H1MPS@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...6I > > Hans is correct.  It does not see itself as a Server and *no* license-G > > group is valid.  Looks like I live with the errors or try the cable<B > > trick.  Is it as simple as putting an ohm meter on the monitorD > > connectors (monitor off) to see what the values of the resistorsF > > should be?  It has been 30 years since I had an electronics class.& > > Does anybody have any suggestions? > H > Some of the VAX(stations) think they're a workstation and not a serverG > if a keyboard is plugged in.  I think there doesn't even have to be a 1 > keyboard attached, just the plug in the socket.'  J If S3 is set to use a serial line for console then the VAXstation 2000 andF all VS 3100's that I own turn into a VAXserver. So they need a VMS "B"I license to operate. The VAXstation 4000-60 and -90A stay a VAXstation and L will thus still honor a "D" license. The keyboard has nothing to do with it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:42:44 +0100r" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>P Subject: Re: VAXStation 4000-90 without graphics card will not load VMS licenses6 Message-ID: <b4la80$21pb1p$3@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>  F The problem with impedances is that they may contain a capacitor or an inductor besides resistors.rH A PC monitor has a nominal 75 ohms input impedance and runs at 0.7 Volts (peak-peak).  8 "Gary Morin" <gary.morin@emergis.com> schreef in bericht7 news:4f886957.0303100750.35fbbf58@posting.google.com...oG > Hans is correct.  It does not see itself as a Server and *no* license-E > group is valid.  Looks like I live with the errors or try the cablec@ > trick.  Is it as simple as putting an ohm meter on the monitorB > connectors (monitor off) to see what the values of the resistorsD > should be?  It has been 30 years since I had an electronics class.$ > Does anybody have any suggestions? >t >   -- Gary  > / > "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote in messaget2 news:<b4fiat$1u8069$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>...< > > "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> schreef in bericht' > > news:f+q05FFxmU8$@elias.decus.ch...aC > > > In article <4f886957.0303070634.3c205e92@posting.google.com>,o0 > >  gary.morin@emergis.com (Gary Morin) writes:H > > > > I have a VAXStation 4000-90 that I use without the display tube.I > > > > Every time I boot the box it reports a console level error on thedJ > > > > graphics board.  Since I was tired of geeting the errors I removed the K > > > > graphics card and when I rebooted all of the VMS licenses failed tolC > > > > load.  When I selected the "license requirements" option inhK > > > > vmslicense.com it came back with a list that showed that no licensetL > > > > group is valid.  When I put the card back in everything loaded but I9 > > > > still got the hardware boot error on the console.  > > > >a > > >dJ > > > I believe that without the graphics board, VMS decides it's a serverD > > > rather than workstation, hence requires server level licenses. > > >e
 > > [snip] > >s	 > > Paul,P > >,H > > without the graphics card the VAX looses its identity and VMS cannotJ > > determine what it is. Because it cannot find a match, LMF decides that _all_ K > > license types are invalid. In another post in this thread (did that oneh findL > > its way out?) I suggested to keep the board in and put a passive load on theiE > > three color outlets. That way the boards is fooled into believingd there'stH > > still a monitor attached and will happily continue the boot process.L > > I do not know what input impedance a monitor uses, but a single resistor > > might do the trick.  > >> > > Hans   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:14:48 +0000 (UTC)I5 From: "John Wallace" <johnwallace4@yahoo.dotco.dotuk>r6 Subject: Re: [OT] After two months of SAP training :-(/ Message-ID: <b4kcun$8jl$1@venus.btinternet.com>o  0 "Arne Vajhj" <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote in message# news:3E68F411.2070408@vajhoej.dk...o > Dave Gudewicz wrote:K > > I once heard the SAP = Stops All Production.  After reading what Didiery hady( > > to say, I'm beginning to believe it. >>< > SAP projects tend to be very painfull and very overbudget. >>@ > Which you can also read as very profitable for the consultants > doing the implementation ! >i > Arne >c  
 Precisely.  G Anyone know what goes on inside HPQ? CPQ were going SAP. CPQ UK's orderrH management stuff (which I *think* covers Europe) *was* in the process ofJ being Bangalored. But HP is an Oracle Apps shop (according to Oracle). NowE what? Can't have two in parallel for long or the promised benefits ofi  "integration" won't be achieved.  F How many different and incompatibly-formatted part numbers on entirelyH unrelated systems in HPQ are there now for (e.g.) a 128MB DIMM? An IntelE 10/100 NIC? etc... Does it matter? To HP? To resellers? To customers?e  J There used to be a very nice DEC-built infobase in CPQ whose name I forgetH that managed to integrate the CPQ and DEC part number systems (includingE BoMs, used-on, stock, etc). All done with links to the outside stuff.  Probably gone now.  E Meanwhile, SAP sucks, says anyone except SAP-bigots, but sells by theeD truckload. Windows sucks, says anyone except Windows-bigots, but hasK traditionally sold by the truckload. Mac is brill (say its supporters), butoG barely visible in sales figures. VMS is brill (say its supporters), buta' barely visible in sales figures. Weird.r   regardsn john   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.138 ************************