1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 12 Mar 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 139       Contents:+ Analyze/Disk problem with HSD05 controllers P Re: Benchmarketeering (was: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release f1 Re: DECnet SERVICE CIRCUIT for multiple e-devices 1 Re: DECnet SERVICE CIRCUIT for multiple e-devices 1 Re: DECnet SERVICE CIRCUIT for multiple e-devices  Re: DHCP on WE1.6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ?6 Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? Re: Fibre Channel and SCS $ how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code?( Re: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code?( Re: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code?5 HP World 2003 Call for Content Focus Group Volunteers  Re: Lightweight TCP/IP stack?  Re: Login timeouts. @ Re: n-up Printing under OpenVMS 7.3 to HP LaserJet 4000 Printer. Re: re: national moratorium... Re: RE: Numeric usernames  RE: RE: Numeric usernames  RE: RE: Numeric usernames  Re: Numeric usernames  Re: Numeric usernames  Re: One version of a file ONLY.  RE: One version of a file ONLY.  Re: One version of a file ONLY. * Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlaying* Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlaying  Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions  Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants  Re: OT: About snow...  Re: OT: About snow...  Re: OT: About snow...  Re: OT: About snow...  Re: OT: About snow...  RE: OT: About snow... / Re: Pathworks 6.0C and Windows 2000 AD upgrade?  Re: Problem with DELETE  Re: Process State "RWCAP"  PSDC missing data , Sending from MX to Netscape Messaging ServerP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda Re: SQS Listener (again) Re: SQS Listener (again) Re: SQS Listener (again) SYS$STARTUP:LIB$DT_STARTUP.COM Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?  Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?  Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?  [Fwd: Re: Numeric usernames]  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:38:54 -0500 5 From: "Dale A. Marcy" <dqmunicorn@y12unicorn.doe.gov> 4 Subject: Analyze/Disk problem with HSD05 controllers, Message-ID: <b4lohu$hf7$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov>  K I had logged a call with Customer Support because I was not able to perform L an Analyze/Disk on disks that were not mounted as a shadow member.  They hadL not come up with a solution to my problem.  After looking at several things,L I came up with a theory which I have just tested and it appears my hunch wasK correct.  The 2 systems being used were Alpha Server 4100s with VMS V7.2-2. J I was having problems with the quorum disk not working with either node inH the cluster to form a cluster during boot up, but it would mount on bothL systems after they formed a cluster on their own, so I tried to Analyze/Disk% the quorum disk and it gave an error:   ? %ANALDISK-F-GETDVI, error getting device characteristics, RVN 1 ' -SYSTEM-F-IVDEVNAM, invalid device name   H I was able to do directories on the quorum disk and see everything thereK without error.  Another system manager here ran a monitor scs on the system L and wanted me to look at some of the output.  I noticed during this that theJ last character of my HSD05 nodename was being truncated.  The HSD05 manualK indicates that you can use 8 characters for the nodename and it will accept E that many characters and appears to use them (which I did).  However, J apparently the Analyze/Disk, Set Volume, and quorum software does not likeK the nodenames that long.  I just shortened the names on all of my HSD05s to 5 6 characters and now everything is working correctly.   K I do not know if this information could impact any other controllers, but I  thought I would pass it along.   --
 Dale A. Marcy  VMS System Manager5 SAIC - Science Applications International Corporation 
 (865)576-4942    Berra's Universal Law - 2 "Before everything changed, it was all different."   Hint to reply by e-mail:% Everyone knows there are no Unicorns.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:26:33 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>Y Subject: Re: Benchmarketeering (was: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release f , Message-ID: <3E6E4679.1090901@tsoft-inc.com>   John Smith wrote:     F > It might be useful if, through the customer lab, it were possible toB > get customer permission to extract, 'sanitize', and publish code= > samples that are 'before and after' cases of where dramatic D > performance improvements have been achieved through code tweaking,D > substituting system services for user code, architectural changes,	 > etc....     Q While I agree with the concept, there can be times when the custom user code may  I outperform the system services.  There is significant overhead in system  M services to detect error conditions which even most idiots will not think of  Q doing.  User code running in user mode can be safer and not need the same amount  6 of vetting that arguments to a system service require.   Dave   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:04:19 +0000 (UTC) - From: lewis@spyder.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) : Subject: Re: DECnet SERVICE CIRCUIT for multiple e-devices. Message-ID: <b4lfg2$si5$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  r brandon@dalsemi.com writes in article <03031111464186@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com> dated Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:46:41 -0600:( >I want to do this on all three servers: > G >$ define /system /exec NETNODE_REMOTE CLUSTER$FILES:NETNODE_REMOTE.DAT   K I have done something similar -- I moved NETNODE_REMOTE.DAT to SYS$COMMON.  	 It works.   , >However, the nodes have different circuits:  K That's OK, the circuit info is in NETNODE_LOCAL.DAT.  Leave that file where  it is.  , >Using the DCL commands will muck things up: > ( >NCP> SET NODE nodename ADDRESS address * >         SERVICE CIRCUIT ethernet-device , >         HARDWARE ADDRESS ethernet-address & >         LOAD FILE file specification >   >Any ideas how to overcome this?  G For NCP SET commands, you still need to execute it on each node because J they don't modify the file, just the dynamic data.  I use SYSMAN to do theH same MC NCP SET on each node in the cluster.  It's only the DEF commandsH which write to the NETNODE_REMOTE file where you save any time by having just one file.  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:13:58 -0600  From: brandon@dalsemi.com : Subject: Re: DECnet SERVICE CIRCUIT for multiple e-devices1 Message-ID: <03031114135883@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   , >>> >I want to do this on all three servers: >>> > K >>> >$ define /system /exec NETNODE_REMOTE CLUSTER$FILES:NETNODE_REMOTE.DAT  >>> O >>> I have done something similar -- I moved NETNODE_REMOTE.DAT to SYS$COMMON.  
 >>> It works.  >>>   H Yes, I know it works, I have another cluster in a galaxy far far away...    0 >>> >However, the nodes have different circuits: >>> O >>> That's OK, the circuit info is in NETNODE_LOCAL.DAT.  Leave that file where 
 >>> it is. >>>   J Yes, the NETNODE_LOCAL.DAT stays where it is.  The problem is not with the NETNODE_LOCAL.DAT.    0 >>> >Using the DCL commands will muck things up: >>> > , >>> >NCP> SET NODE nodename ADDRESS address . >>> >         SERVICE CIRCUIT ethernet-device 0 >>> >         HARDWARE ADDRESS ethernet-address * >>> >         LOAD FILE file specification >>> > $ >>> >Any ideas how to overcome this? >>> K >>> For NCP SET commands, you still need to execute it on each node because N >>> they don't modify the file, just the dynamic data.  I use SYSMAN to do theL >>> same MC NCP SET on each node in the cluster.  It's only the DEF commandsL >>> which write to the NETNODE_REMOTE file where you save any time by having >>> just one file.  A I want to DEFINE the SERVICE CIRCUIT for each remote node once.   @ I do not want to do a SET - defeats the purpose of my objective.  ! I know some possible options are:   O 1) Swap the GIGe with the 100 Mbit cards, this will force the GIGe to be EWA-0. M 2) Have two seperate data files.  One shared by the two servers and the third 
 by itself.N 3) Use a logical - thought - however I do not think that DECnet will translate at the transport layer.     L I know with TSM you were able to define multiple circuit paths, however thatC was for management of DECservers but not downloading to DECservers.    Did I miss something?    John Brandon VMS Systems Administrator  Dallas Semiconductor john.brandon@dalsemi.com 972.371.4172 wk  972.371.4003 fx    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:34:27 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> : Subject: Re: DECnet SERVICE CIRCUIT for multiple e-devices' Message-ID: <3E6E9CB3.599DBA47@fsi.net>    brandon@dalsemi.com wrote: > [snip] > NODE1  >   EWA-1             on > NODE2  >   EWA-0             on > NODE3  >   EWA-0             on > - > Using the DCL commands will muck things up:  > ( > NCP> SET NODE nodename ADDRESS address* >          SERVICE CIRCUIT ethernet-device, >          HARDWARE ADDRESS ethernet-address' >          LOAD FILE file specification  > ! > Any ideas how to overcome this?   F From the "little known MOP facts" file (based on my exprience thru and& including V5.5-2, VERY unofficial))...  @ If a device requesting a load asks for a specific file, any nodeD receiving that request with service enabled on the receiving circuitF can/will attempt to service the request. All that's needed is that theH requested file be present in the MOM$SYSTEM path (or maybe its MOM$LOAD,
 I forget).  B If a device requesting "load me" does not request a specific file,F things get a bit hairier. I've no lab to test this; however, I believeF you can leave out the service circuit clause and just specify the loadE file. SERVICE CIRCUIT only needs to be known when you want to use the H TRIGGER or LOAD commands specifying NODE instead of "VIA circuit_id PHYS ADDR phys_addr".  B I've not played much with LANCP, so I can't speak to that with any? authority. It may be more flexible than the DECnet-IV executor.   $ > No plans to upgrade to DECnet/OSI.  : Wouldn't help anyway - it'd take years to figure THAT out.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 11 MAR 2003 23:39:08 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) Subject: Re: DHCP on WE1. 6 Message-ID: <11MAR03.23390810@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  H In a previous article, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote: ->Carl Karcher wrote: H ->> Not what I observed. It would listen on the first interface it foundK ->> (WE0 with address 192.168.x.y). When a request came in from a client on I ->> the network bound to the other interface (WE1 on 144.92.a.b) it would 5 ->> produce the "Network not administered by server".  ->  P ->Did you define 2 IP address ranges in the Server Tab of the DHCP GUI ? Did you' ->define 2 subnets in the subnets tab ?   H No since there were no dhcp clients on the 192.168.x.y network. It was a> temporary situation and not something I need to work anymore.    --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison 6 --               karcher.nomorespam@waisman.wisc.edu     ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 11:17:17 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303111117.60571681@posting.google.com>   Z p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote in message news:<21rsA2RAgW06@elias.decus.ch>...p > In article <b096a4ee.0303071658.6a8fb7e8@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:^ > > p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote in message news:<VgS1FoX92RT7@elias.decus.ch>...s > >> In article <b096a4ee.0303021552.620c4608@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:  >  [...]L > >> >> Eh? I find those two statements contradictory. My view of EDT is theS > >> >> pure default (without the clutter of someone else's ideas, as contained in  P > >> >> SYS$MANAGER:EDTINI.TEMPLATE), and almost certainly doesn't look anything > >> >> like yours.  > >> >  K > >> > Well, then you have to compare it with the pure default of EVE! Even M > >> > then, EDT wins hands down for me. And even the EVE fans admit that the . > >> > default EVE keypad is somewhat lacking. > >>  1 > >> Yes that is a slight pain, and the answer is  > >>   > >> $ DEFINE EVE$KEYPAD EDT > >>  L > >> in a your LOGIN.COM (in my system wide startup files on my own system). > > H > > It doesn't matter what the answer is or how easy it is. You said "MyH > > view of EDT is the pure default...". If you're going to insist we goJ > > with the "pure default" EDT then it is only fair that you judge EVE byF > > its "pure default ... wihtout the clutter of someone elses ideas",I > > which SET KEYPAD EDT clearly is. So if you allow SET KEYPAD EDT, then . > > you should also allow some changes to EDT. > > H > OK, let's look at EDT in its _pure default_ (on a system which started0 > out with VMS V7.2 as its initial installation: >  > $ set def sys$manager 2 > $ dir edt*	! no default edtini.ini files to read >  > Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]  >  > EDTINI.TEMPLATE;1  >  > Total of 1 file. >  > $ edit/edt test.txt  > Input file does not exist  > [EOB]  > *  > H > Line mode you see? I've still got to enter C<ENTER> or SET MODE CHANGE" > to get it into full screen mode. >  > Touche :-)  D You are assuming that I want to go into full screen mode right away.: Sometimes I do; sometimes I don't. Sometimes I like to run   *TYPE ALL 'STRING'  C followed by the line number of the resulting output I am interested @ in. Then C, Return, and I am there. Sometimes I like to do otherD things before going into screen mode. But when I do run C to go intoD screen mode, it is almost instantaneous with no distracting messages flashing, even for huge files.  B EVE assumes other things, like users preferring lower case mode. IC guess I prefer an editor that doesn't assume so much about the user / and makes it so hard to undo those assumptions.   C Besides, it was *you* who wanted to compare defaults. My points had D nothing to do with that. My point about the default EVE still standsE for those who are interested in comparing default mode. For those who A always want to go straight to screen mode, your point is valid if < customizations are not allowed. But both editors "encourage"F customization. And my main point is that for me, it is not worth it toF switch to EVE where I would have to start with the default and rebuildE everything I already have with EDT (well, as much as could be carried 
 over to EVE).    G > > You might say, "Well, SET KEYPAD EDT is part of EVE" to which I can - > > say so are the commands in my setup file.  > > J > > The relevant question is "Why should I switch?". You said we should goA > > the default EDT, so I simply countered about the default EVE.  > >  > A > I am not asking you to switch. I am one of those who uses both,  > remember?    OK.   H > And yes, someone else in an earlier posting reminded me of another use? > I have for EDT - that of being able to delete the end of line : > "character" from within a macro or via a key definition.  C One day I am going to compile a list of advantages of each editor.     Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 11:27:43 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)? Subject: Re: Editor wars - Was: Re: Upcoming VMS improvements ? = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303111127.5f3ca104@posting.google.com>   } clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote in message news:<6UM5FODgUVZR@eisner.encompasserve.org>... p > In article <b096a4ee.0303051542.1cb08c26@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > > 1 > >> > Do you like having to wait for a second or J > >> > two for the display to settle down when you reach either end of the* > >> > buffer, wondering what is going on? > >> >   > >>  H > >> I think I understand what's annoying you here. Are you holding downH > >> the up/down arrow (or Prev/Next Screen) and then getting annoyed byE > >> the pause caused by the flashing message before you can continue 
 > >> typing ?  > > H > > Nope. If I am in the middle of the file, and I am scrolling upwards,C > > pressing the next/prev screen key at about 2.5 to 3 Hz, when it J > > reaches the top, the cursor is still not at the top. The cursor has toI > > wait for the message at the bottom of the screen to flash "Attempt to D > > move past the beginning of buffer AEFL.COM". First it appears inJ > > reverse video, then normal video, and then finally my cursor is placedJ > > at the top of the screen. Every time this happens my reaction is "WhatJ > > the...? What is going on? ... Oh, I reached the top of the buffer. WhyH > > does it do that?" I just can't get used to it. I can't stay on guardH > > for it all the time. I'm editing. I have my work in mind. I have theC > > pattern that I am looking for in mind. This is just yet another F > > distraction that slows me down and makes me wait for nothing. WithH > > EDT, I get the message, it stays in reverse video, and the cursor isF > > placed immediately on the first line. It takes about 0.00 seconds.4 > > That's the way to do it. No BS. It just does it. > >  > F > I think that you will find that's what I said above. Did you try the    D No. You said I was holding the arrow or prev/next screen key down. IE am not doing that. Okay, Sometimes I hold the arrow down. But usually < I am pressing the prev/next screen key at about 2.5 to 3 Hz.    G > statements below ? If so, did you find any problems with using them ?  > M > Note that the messages will still display; but you should not get the pause  > caused by the flashing.     ? I just tried it. They work! Thanks very much. It also stops the = flashing during the startup! Thanks again. This is very good.      8 > >> If so, then try the following in your eve$init.eve: > >>  & > >> tpu set(message_action_level, 0);( > >> tpu set(message_action_type, none); > >>  Q > >> WARNING: I have tested these for all of 2 minutes; I've just looked them up.  > >>  L > >> Note that they will apply to all messages of the specified (or greater)% > >> severity; see the documentation.  > >>   >  > Simon.   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 20:02:54 -08001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) " Subject: Re: Fibre Channel and SCS= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0303112002.13611d30@posting.google.com>   R brandon@dalsemi.com wrote in message news:<03030612115167@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>...) > I would like to have the code.  Please!   F My tool for measuring lock-request latencies in a cluster may be found9 at http://encompasserve.org/~parris/locktime.com (and see E LOCKTIME_README.TXT at the same location for a bit of documentation).   B Many thanks go to Roy G. Davis (of VAXcluster Principles fame) forD writing the Macro programs that make this possible, and to Christian2 Moser for porting them from VAX to Alpha long ago.  8 (If you happen to run this tool on some unusual hardware8 configuration, I'd be interested in seeing the results.)   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 16:30:55 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - Subject: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code? 3 Message-ID: <BCvSnRYwHkGA@eisner.encompasserve.org>   H    As I'm wandering through, editting source anyway, I wonder if I could:    now make changes in support of future migration to IPF.  B    So can anyone say what C, C++, and BLISS keywords I can pick up@    which are the IPF equivalent to #ifdef __vax, #ifdef __alpha,    %BLISS32E()?   :    How about the return for f$getsyi("arch_name") et. al.?   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 16:53:53 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 1 Subject: Re: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code? 3 Message-ID: <q+vEQNal8Ghl@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <BCvSnRYwHkGA@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:  > J >    As I'm wandering through, editting source anyway, I wonder if I could< >    now make changes in support of future migration to IPF. > D >    So can anyone say what C, C++, and BLISS keywords I can pick upB >    which are the IPF equivalent to #ifdef __vax, #ifdef __alpha, >    %BLISS32E()?  > < >    How about the return for f$getsyi("arch_name") et. al.?  B This is included in the VMS V7.3-1 documentation (I forget whether+ it is Release Notes or New Features Guide).    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 01:40:36 -0500 * From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>1 Subject: Re: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code? - Message-ID: <3E6E9014.5307.CDF1A28@localhost>   / On 11 Mar 2003 at 16:53, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > > >    How about the return for f$getsyi("arch_name") et. al.? > D > This is included in the VMS V7.3-1 documentation (I forget whether- > it is Release Notes or New Features Guide).   A It's in the New Features and Documentation Overview, section 5.8:   F http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/6657/6657pro_006.html#arch_spec ific_ipf     Enjoy!
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------C Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 = Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:05:36 -0500 = From: "HP World Conf & Expo - Encompass" <KilleenJ@toast.net> > Subject: HP World 2003 Call for Content Focus Group Volunteers/ Message-ID: <v6sgfs8i0a3ge2@corp.supernews.com>   A Encompass is looking for individuals who would like to be part of H the team who will be giving direction on the HP World 2003 Solutions andE Technology Conference program content. These focus groups provide the H insight used to develop some of the conference program for HP World 2003K Solutions and Technology Conference & Expo. For details and to participate, > go to http://www.encompassUS.org/events/hpworld2003/CATS.html.   TOPIC AREAS:A We need IT professionals who have expertise in one or more of the  following topic areas:   *IT Directors - MIS Managers *Storage IT professionals # *HP-UX environment IT professionals # *Linux environment IT professionals  *IA32 server IT professionals 4 *Management Software IT professionals (OpenView/UDC)	 *Security $ *High Availability/Disaster Recovery  I Please note other topics such as OpenVMS, Tru64, Novell, MPE, Oracle, and 3 SQL Server will be handled through another process.   	 TIMELINE: E To help you determine if you have the time to commit to this program, - please review the following timeline summary. # * 3/19-Receive materials for review E * 3/20, 3/21 or 3/24-Participate in one the 2-hour call(s) to discuss  content/topics' * 3/25-Submit notes on proposed content @ * 4/2-Review compilation of notes in preparation for second callJ * 4/3, 4/4, or 4/7-Participate in 2-hour call(s) to discuss content/topics& * 4/8-Submit notes on proposed content, * 4/9-Submit final notes on proposed content# * 4/16-Review final report by email    RSVP: ? If you are interested in sharing your expertise and benefit the I Encompass membership by participating on one or more Focus Groups, please + return the appropriate application found at K http://www.encompassUS.org/events/hpworld2003/CATS.html and to Jeff Killeen @ at Killeen@HPWorld.com by 12:00pm EST on Monday, March 17, 2003.  / We look forward to your being part of the team!    Encompass Headquarters   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 22:18:20 +0100 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>& Subject: Re: Lightweight TCP/IP stack?5 Message-ID: <b4ljr9$pgnlb$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>   / "Cthulhu" <spambox@rlyeh.it> schreef in bericht " news:b4imqn$j9$2@kadath.deep.it... > The choice, with OpenVMS/VAX:  >  > DEC TCP/IP 5.1 > Multinet last release  > TCPware last release > I > I'm working on hobbyist systems, and they are quite old now. I like the H > IP failover feature in Multinet, but I also like to know which is moreG > advisable for a low-mem system (a uVAX 3400 with 20MB of RAM, maybe a  > 3100 with 8MB).  > 	 > Thanks!  >  > sceltamente, >    Cthulhu >  > -- >  > Vado dove nessuno giungeD > Per strade deserte abitate da spettri         http://www.rlyeh.it/I > Vado nel Nulla, per cogliere l'Essenza.       <cthulhu(at)rlyeh(dot)it>   J On my VAXstation 2000 I use CMU-IP. It runs on VMS 5.5-1 and VMS 5.5-2. No? idea what the support status of that stack is. It is definitely 
 light-weight.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 03:32:02 GMT , From: "Ken Randell" <ken.randell@fortel.com> Subject: Re: Login timeouts.7 Message-ID: <SSxba.17950$iq1.2747@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>   I Somebody will likely correct me, but I thought that the USERNAME/PASSWORD K prompts were done with RMS $GET operations with a timeout specified that is K (was?) hard-coded for something like 15 seconds; i.e., if you don't hit any I characters in the 15 second time-period, the read times-out, so it fails,  and the login operation fails.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 21:45:16 GMT 6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)I Subject: Re: n-up Printing under OpenVMS 7.3 to HP LaserJet 4000 Printer. 5 Message-ID: <MNsba.177948$AV5.1965405@news.chello.at>   m In article <c16c8d2e.0303110730.626a6ab3@posting.google.com>, tony.alldis@dunnhumby.com (Tony Alldis) writes: G >We have a request from one of our users, to be able to print 4 * pages B >of normal text logfile output, onto a single page of A4 (n-up [orG >4-up] printing, as its known) to an HP LaserJet 4000 TN printer via an  >OpenVMS V7.3 "Telnet" queue.    $ PRINT/PARAM=NUMBER_UP=4   D >I have taken a look at the DECPS documentation, but due to the factD >that the queue is using Telnet printing - it would not be supported >via that route.  K It is DCPS (the DECprint Supervisor) not DECPS (the Performance Solutions). . And yes, DCPS is the (preferred) way to do it.  F >I thought it might be possible to setup a printer form that could useE >some embedded PCL commands to put the printer into the correct mode.   , You could also try this with PS commands ;-)D But why bother with printer dependant commands when you have alreadyC a supported and free (license is included in VMS License) solution.   A >I've checked through the PCL5 documentation on the internet, but D >believe the "n-up" printing function is a feature of PCL6, which is= >supported by the printer, but which I can find absolutely no  >documentation for!  > E >Would anyone know what the PCL commands would be to facilitate this, B >or perhaps have a better suggestion for how this may be achieved?  D Install DCPS and setup the queue onto node::"IP_RawTCP/printer:9100"I which is a solution called "telnet" or "reverse telnet" or "stream" queue ) means a solution what you like to have...     F But check again your HPLJ 4000. The were sold in large quantities withH bad firmware (firmware code 1997xxxxx or so). You need at least firmwareF from 1998 which might be hard now to get if you don't already have it.  A The HP supported method would be to buy a more recent printer ;-)  supported by DCPS of course.     --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:09:45 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> ' Subject: Re: re: national moratorium... H Message-ID: <dorba.91199$em1.13994@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  * "G Everhart" <ge@gce.com> wrote in message  news:3E6E20E9.4070500@gce.com...E > John Smith (no email address listed) posted that Palestinians could / > return far as he knew if they had not fought.  > F > Doesn't make sense. You mean any Palestinians who didn't participate might E > return? How come they stayed in camps? Not, I suspect, from wanting  to live  > there.  E Why? The list could be long or short, depending on you point of view. E Some example might be 'peer' pressure, machismo, war criminals, false B promises from Arab governments - after all, who would more readilyD enlist in the army for the next battle that the ones left and wanted0 back on their own terms, ie. no Jews left alive?    D > There were indeed some "federal lands" but there were also lots of lands A > which "became" "federal lands" there, from what I've read, as a  resultD > of the acceptance of any evidence, however flimsy, of their having beenF > abandonned, or in the absence of strong documentation that the landsE > were owned by Palestinians. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, the C > Ottoman Empire was not particularly efficient at maintaining land  records,F > and the wars going on did nothing either to improve the integrity of > written deeds and the like.  > ? > The gripe they have is real and cannot be argued away in this  fashion. > E > I acknowledged specifically that those who immigrated had also been  robbedB > and could not really go anywhere else, or believed this to be so (whichC > amounts to the same thing). I don't know how many may have tried,  but haveD > heard of ships being turned away from France not that long before. > C > That however has nothing to do with the Palestinians in question,  who were > also victims.  > F > This was not a case of eminent domain. It was as much a land grab as any E > other where a government gets involved from what I have read of it.  Legal E > writs were issued and so on, but the land was taken, often by being B > "presumed" abandonned. Had there been compensation, the argument might  > be different.  > < > I recall that some Jews in Germany in the 30s "sold" their possessions F > too, at grossly lower value, to buy escape or safety. Was that just?- > Would you want such sales to be recognized?   = They were not restricted from selling to anyone who wanted to E purchase, including Arab Israeli's who remained. Nor were they forced D to sell for pennies on the dollar or pound or shekel or whatever theB currency of the day was, so the analogy with the situation in Nazi Germany does not apply.    > C > I am deeply suspicious of eminent domain generally, and recognize  thatE > sometimes nations just take land. Consider A. Jackson in the matter  ofE > Indian land in western Georgia. But the fact that countries do that E > does not make it right and does not change the fact that it creates 
 > victims. > B > That an area is occupied for N years does not create the kind of	 situation C > adverse possession does. Adverse possession depends on the notiont thatC > the owner of the land acceded to the possession by another by notl doing-F > anything about it over an extended period when he might have legallyD > challenged it. That doesn't apply, unless the people displaced had thewA > right to come back and retake possession. That was not the caseC here. E > The period is btw usually 20 years. But the principle is irrelevantd > to this situation.  D So the land within the borders of Israel post-1948 and pre-1967  was  'occupied' territory? Not quite.  C However, I generally disagree with the policy of settlements in theaF West Bank, but I would be wholly supportive of full Israeli control ofD Jerusalem, and probably the Golan Heights even if Syria were willingD to sit down at the peace table. You have to see the geography at theA Golan area to understand just how vulnerable giving back the high ? ground would make Israel. The Israeli's learned one lesson fromL@ Vietnam that the US never learned, and that is you don't give upB ground you paid for in blood unless there's a damn good reason for> doing so. The longer Syria waits for a settlement of the Golan; question, the more likely they will be serious about peace.T    E Glenn, suffice it to say that there are about as many opinions of themE facts on this matter are there are people in the world. and we aren't C going to solve it here. I'm just about typed out on this subject ato7 the present time, so I'd suggest that we call it a day.o  D p.s. - Just a suggestion when replying to posts....keep the reply in/ the same thread rather than creating a new one.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:17:18 -0600N+ From: Andy Stoffel <a.stoffel@adelphia.net>T" Subject: Re: RE: Numeric usernames> Message-ID: <Xns933B9156856E3acsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.230>  ? JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones) enlightened us withaB news:b4kvh0$9up$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu on 11 Mar 2003:    > In articleC > <07103702F27FD411ACA30000F8085452044FF2D5@sagemshs001.fmc.sa.gov.o; > au>, "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" <Chris.Barratt@fmc.sa.gov.au>o
 > writes: A >> I am not in favour of numeric usernames, but there is a chancee$ >> we may be forced into using them. > A > I have this image of user 6 sending email to user 2, asking whoR > user 1 is... o  m4 Just wait until users 42 and 666 join the party :-).   -Andy-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:52:40 -0500 ! From: VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com>e" Subject: RE: RE: Numeric usernamesK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BD3@rlghncst964.usps.gov>a  ? JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones) enlightened us with A news:b4kvh0$9up$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu on 11 Mar 2003:s   > In articleC > <07103702F27FD411ACA30000F8085452044FF2D5@sagemshs001.fmc.sa.gov.,; > au>, "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" <Chris.Barratt@fmc.sa.gov.au> 	 > writes:,A >> I am not in favour of numeric usernames, but there is a chance8$ >> we may be forced into using them. >2A > I have this image of user 6 sending email to user 2, asking whor > user 1 is...  4 Just wait until users 42 and 666 join the party :-).   -Andy-  3 It sound to me as if somebody needs to be reminded  5 about crackability and the difference between powers M, of 36 and powers of 10 with respect to same.  @ And if they *still* don't get it, I understand that the Dilbert 8 website sells baseball caps with "Pointy Hair" attached.   WWWebb ========================  William W. Webb - EMS Operations) OpenVMS Systems Support - USPS DSSC Annex , 4730 Hargrove Road, Raleigh, NC 27616-2874  > 919.325.7500 x4186  <FirstInitialLastNameAtEmailDotUSPSDotGov>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:18:48 +1030C: From: "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" <Chris.Barratt@fmc.sa.gov.au>" Subject: RE: RE: Numeric usernamesP Message-ID: <07103702F27FD411ACA30000F8085452044FF2DD@sagemshs001.fmc.sa.gov.au>  J we are talking a hospital environment, so I guess many patients would find  some common ground there...  :-)   > -----Original Message-----< > From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net]% > Sent: Wednesday, 12 March 2003 2:48  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como$ > Subject: Re: RE: Numeric usernames >  > = > In article <b4kvh0$9up$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,  5 > JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones) writes:  > > In article A@ > <07103702F27FD411ACA30000F8085452044FF2D5@sagemshs001.fmc.sa.gF > ov.au>, "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" <Chris.Barratt@fmc.sa.gov.au> writes:= > >> I am not in favour of numeric usernames, but there is a e > chance we may be > >> forced into using them. > > @ > > I have this image of user 6 sending email to user 2, asking  > who user 1 is... > B > Perhaps such a system seems silly from an educational viewpoint.' > but consider a prison environment :-)h >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:59:48 -0600h1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>, Subject: Re: Numeric usernames' Message-ID: <3E6E9494.1767BC3E@fsi.net>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] > In article <3E6D635F.FF9E5486@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:f! > > "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" wrote:o > >>O > >> The help for ADD username in authorise states that fully numeric usernamestO > >> should be avoided because numeric identifiers are not allowed and hence an 3 > >> identifier for the username cannot be created.g > >>K > >> What implications are there in a username not having the corresponding B > >> identifier created ?  (and hence in using numeric usernames). > >:0 > > Roughly the same as usernames sharing a UIC. >  > I disagree strongly. > C > Sharing UICs has specific security implications (and there may bes& > cases where it is even appropriate). > > > Numeric UICs at most would result in user interface problems4 > (particularly in programs not part of VMS itself).   Why? A string is a string, no?   -- o David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:08:51 -0600.1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e Subject: Re: Numeric usernames' Message-ID: <3E6E96B3.5A7EDFF5@fsi.net>T   Hoff Hoffman wrote:r > e > In article <bSJM8xotvMAE@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:s^ > :In article <3E6D635F.FF9E5486@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:" > :> "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" wrote: > :>> L > :>> What implications are there in a username not having the correspondingC > :>> identifier created ?  (and hence in using numeric usernames).  > :>1 > :> Roughly the same as usernames sharing a UIC.g > :$ > :I disagree strongly.  > G >   Larry is correct.  Sharing UICs is hugely different than not havinga> >   a text-format translation of a UIC value in the RIGHTSLIST  D Not to me, it isn't. To me, the result is the same: the inability to1 associate rights identifiers to individual users.a   > (which isTE >   what AUTHORIZE ADD is referencing here) and sharing UICs can leadeD >   to all manner of interesting security problems and exposures and >   accountability issues.    E Exactly my point. When all users of an application share the same UICOB (or worse yet, the same username!), using more than the most basic) VMS-level security is all but impossible.d  - > Like a username, a UIC should be issued and 6 >   maintained and accountable to a single individual.  C Be sure to pound that into your biggest ISVs with largest, heaviestf blunt object available.m  H >   If anyone here feels included to share UICs for application-specificD >   reasons or for shared storage or such, please look at the use ofD >   identifiers and particularly (for storage) resource identifiers.  C Be sure to pound that into your biggest ISVs with largest, heaviestn blunt object available.-  F >   If you need to share a login, it should be secured -- this usuallyF >   means either a restricted or (better) a captive login environment.   Preaching to the choir.0   -- 1 David J. Dachterae dba DJE SystemsI http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/L   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:53:39 GMTd1 From: "Barry in Indy" <barrymeindy@ameritech.net> ( Subject: Re: One version of a file ONLY.? Message-ID: <79rba.6385$se1.3634164@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>o   brandon@dalsemi.com wrote: > / > The create version 32767 will certainly work.O >.A > However, reading between the lines it seems that you have usersL with= > privileges they should not have.  Or is the file access setA? > incorrectly?  Something to look into outside of the quick fix  of9 > 32767.  I certainly would, never know what other deeper  problems you. > will be masking by the fix.  Just a thought. >e  > I have the feeling that someone who SHOULD have the privileges= made a mistake, and is not owning up to it. It may be time to A take a serious look at our security setup. At least the 32767 fixh should help in the short run.t   -- m
 Barry in Indy    Knock me out to replye   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:05:56 -0800h$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>( Subject: RE: One version of a file ONLY.0 Message-ID: <01C2E7DF.BBE140A0@sulfer.icius.com>  H Depending on how you're set up, and what version of VMS, you may be ableD to do this by removing everyone's delete access to the files. If youB can't delete it you can't replace it, since somewhere around 6.1 I think.   Shane    -----Original Message-----6 From: Barry in Indy [mailto:barrymeindy@ameritech.net]% Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 9:41 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms$ Subject: One version of a file ONLY.    @ Is there a way in VMS to specify that there is to be one version? of a file ONLY, meaning that the creation of a second file withs> the same name would fail? We have an online system which is up8 most of the day. But even when it is running, if someone@ inadvertently copies, say, a set of test files to the production@ system, new versions of the files are created. What I am lookingA for is a simple way to avoid this problem. Of course, there wouldI= also have to be a way to override this protection in order toi restore files intentionally.  
 Thank you,   BarryE   --  
 Barry in Indy    Knock me out to reply    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:21:30 -0600m1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e( Subject: Re: One version of a file ONLY.' Message-ID: <3E6E99AA.937151C6@fsi.net>R   Barry in Indy wrote: > B > Is there a way in VMS to specify that there is to be one versionA > of a file ONLY, meaning that the creation of a second file with @ > the same name would fail? We have an online system which is up: > most of the day. But even when it is running, if someoneB > inadvertently copies, say, a set of test files to the productionB > system, new versions of the files are created. What I am lookingC > for is a simple way to avoid this problem. Of course, there woulds? > also have to be a way to override this protection in order too > restore files intentionally.  4 Your site may need to examine its security policies.  > Production files should live on protected volumes in protectedF directories and have file protection and ownership set such that filesG cannot be superceded without high levels of privilege. You'll also wantAG to look into setting your audit server to either audit or alarm on such  activities.   F Until then, the version 32767 solution is one possibility, but carriesE it's own issues along with it. (Consider: who might have privilege toy" RENAME a file to a lower version?)   -- - David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemsm http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 22:11:06 -0600m( From: Rich Jordan <duodec@speakeasy.net>3 Subject: Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and OverlayingR2 Message-ID: <gaGcnSmEENc_KfOjXTWc-g@speakeasy.net>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > N > Having never worked with PCL, it is capable of printing a raw text file "out- > of the box" ? This makes a HUGE difference.u > P > If you print PCL stuff, does this go through DCPS ? Or just using normal printM > symbiont ?  What exactly triggers the inclusion of the /PAGE_SETUP module ?dL > The print symbiont finding a form feed, or after it has exceeded a certain > number of line ? e > M > In the case of exceeding a number of lines, how does it reconcile the fancysP > graphics data in the included module with the number of lines ? Does it ignore4 > the number of lines produced by the setup module ? >  > .....a  P > The above actually generates 3 pages. The "mise" surboutine keeps track of howK > many lottery numbers  have been printed. And this goes on a form that can G > include 8 tickets. So after the 8th "mise", an automatic printform is)P > executed. And printform does more than a "showpage", it fill out various boxes1 > on the ticket for options I want or don't want.  > L > The symbiont would have absolutely no way of knowing this, nor would DCPS,P > unless it were to parse the prologue which contains the definitions for "mise" > and "printform".  D No DCPS, this is plain old VMS print queues and libraries.  In this A case, the application (MANMAN) knows it is printing a 'check' or aG 'invoice' or 'vertical PO', so when it generates the print job it uses  G the /FORM= option (I think it uses $SNDJBC, but I've not looked at the oE source).  The form name is MM followed by the form type (ie MMCHECK, lH MMINVOICE, MMVERTPO).  Each form (defaults are provided with MANMAN; we H modify them) has the /PAGE_SETUP defined to call in the appropriate PCL I module from the device control library associated with the queue (so you uG could theoretically have a library with postscript modules that do the VH same thing for a postscript print queue, and it would be transparent to = the application as long as the module names stayed the same).   G In general we set the printer page length to 66 lines, default font to tI line printer (132 columns on 8.5x11 letter paper)>  Sample form would be:t  9 Form name                            Number   Description 9 ---------                            ------   ----------- 7 MMINVOICE (stock=DEFAULT)               203   MMINVOICEo?      /LENGTH=66 /PAGE_SETUP=(INVOICE) /STOCK=DEFAULT /WIDTH=132s   Sample queue would be   B Terminal queue HP4, idle, on NODE::LTA100:, mounted form HPDEFAULT   (stock=DEFAULT)s=    /BASE_PRIORITY=4 /DEFAULT=(FORM=HPDEFAULT (stock=DEFAULT))i@    /LIBRARY=MMDEVCTL Lowercase /OWNER=[SYSTEM] /PROCESSOR=LATSYM!    /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:SM) *    /RETAIN=ERROR /SEPARATE=(RESET=(RESET))    H The PCL is generated by some custom basic programs (call subroutines to H draw box here, this size, draw lines there, that size, set fonts, print F text at set locations), keeping line lengths < 132 chars and with the > ANSI <DCS> and <ST> characters at the beginning and end (ANSI E encapsulation for NON-ANSI escape codes, so the drivers don't try to  F interpret or count it).  The last codes sent reset the printer to the E default font, print position to top line left margin.  Then the text nE comes in and over prints the now defined form in printer memory, and  H since it is not encapsulated in <DCS> <ST>, the drivers do their stuff, I formfeeds are sent (not sure if MANMAN does this or the drivers), and it u prints.   F You have to take care that you don't use any of the PCL commands that F can (or might) cause a page eject, and the printer has to have enough G memory to hold the generated form and the text (only a problem on LJ4s n, and earlier in our usage).  Works just fine.    H The library (SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]MMDEVCTL above) has a PCL module called * 'INVOICE' in it for the form's page setup.  D Static text can be embedded in the PCL file that is in the library. D Dynamic text (that changes from page to page, or job to job) is the E actual text file being printed.  In our config, that dynamic text is .F plain; there's no embedded codes save possibly for formfeeds (implied G carriage control too), so it all prints in the same font with standard r- spacing.  Again, this works for what we need.a  I MANMAN never generates forms longer than 66 lines.  If it did that would oF be a problem, but as long as you can determine a (reasonable) maximum D number of lines that must fit on one page, the PCL form and printer ' settings can be modified to accomodate.p   Rich  G BTW, if you want to see raw PCL, write a simple doc in Wordperfect and aE print to disk using a LaserJet or Deskjet driver (don't use Word; it oF produces the most unbelievably bloated and ugly PCL I've ever had the I misfortune of having to decode).  Its actually not too hard to use it to iJ do the boxes, lines, shaded areas, etc. that are needed in 'normal' forms.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 00:44:48 -0400-0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>3 Subject: Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlayinge/ Message-ID: <3E6EBB3E.C6BE7FEF@vl.videotron.ca>i   Rich Jordan wrote:= > No DCPS, this is plain old VMS print queues and libraries.    L Ok, in this case, you are relying on the standard print symbiont to spot the> form feed or reach beyond 66 lines to insert the /PAGE_SETUP.   J But for postscript, that is not possible, unless you build a nice prologueN that reads text from the input stream and writes it to a page until it finds aM form feed and then ejects that page, draws the form and continues to read the  text stream.  K Postscript doesn't have a built-in ability to print text files. But one cana1 easily write a routine to take text and image it./  J > MANMAN never generates forms longer than 66 lines.  If it did that would  G And I gather it only generates raw text files with no line exceeding 80 8 characters ? (which may cause the printer to wrap text).  H > BTW, if you want to see raw PCL, write a simple doc in Wordperfect andF > print to disk using a LaserJet or Deskjet driver (don't use Word; itG > produces the most unbelievably bloated and ugly PCL I've ever had thel# > misfortune of having to decode). e  L Sorry, I am a postscript only shop :-) On my MAC, I only bothered installingF postscript printers, and I don't think I have anything on VMS that canL generate PCL. Again, another example of my choosing the best technology, butN that technology losing groud to the el-cheapo stuff sold with el-cheapo wintel! crap and becoming more prevalent.g   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 23:22:54 GMTe- From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com>.) Subject: Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questions = Message-ID: <iduba.10801$s75.6733587@twister.columbus.rr.com>,   Hoff Hoffman wrote:s <snip> > A >   If we (OpenVMS Engineering) didn't have some basic constructsiA >   available and working in the hardware, booting OpenVMS -- andS@ >   the eventual source-level porting of the application code --" >   would be far more difficult.    < Obviously Hoff, I just wanted to know what tricks you folks ( used !!  I doesn't sound so tricky now !  5 Hmm ... so porting to Hammer would be even easier !!!    -- x  
 Jack Patteeuwb   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 23:26:06 GMTm- From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com>g) Subject: Re: OpenVMS on Itanium Questionse= Message-ID: <iguba.10803$s75.6737146@twister.columbus.rr.com>T  2 Okay, this is way off topic, but still related ;>)  ; I'm not a "certified" EE butit appears the electrician did  = not install the extra isolated ground wire I asked for in my  ; "seal tite" conduits.  Isolated ground (orange) recptacles e
 were used.  8 Where on the web can I find a reference to the NEC that  states that this is improper ?     --    
 Jack Patteeuw    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:47:57 -0500v* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <HR-cncgwB8vCsvOjXTWcpg@metrocast.net>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageB news:CGkba.89023$em1.32884@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... >17 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message . > news:DpmdnQowraJEpPCjXTWcoA@metrocast.net...   ...c  9   Are you suggesting that complete return of the Occupied  > Territories wasrA > > offered and rejected, or something less than that?  Also, the. > details ofF > > what Rabin was proposing before he was killed and what differences > the BaraktD > > proposal entailed would be helpful:  I'd like to understand such > details an > > lot better than I do.a >t@ > In negotiations it is not always possible for both parties getF > everything that each wants. Both parties in this case would have hadG > to give up something that they each wanted in order to come to a deal- > that each could accept.a  K Giving up Israel proper (as it existed between 1948 and 1967) would seem toBE me to be a rather major concession on the part of those who (or whoseD families) used to live there.s   >oG > Rather than me re-hashing what would amount to several thousand booksIG > worth of detail, discussion, and nuance, I'd suggest a read through aSA > variety of publications contemporary with the events - NYT, ThewE > Economist, Jerusalem Post, something from the Arab world, etc... to3E > get a feel for the different interpretations of what was discussed, H > offered, agreed to, and/or rejected. Find a local synagogue and mosqueF > and talk with the rabbi or imam, both of whom should be 'tuned' intoD > the feelings and opinions of their respective communities. This isD > issue is a lightning rod for high-voltage emotions and keeping the8 > facts separate from the feelings is not easy for many.  L I suspected that it might be easy for you, since you had offered comments onK the matter.  Both the two proposals and the differences between them shouldoG at least largely be matters of record, but matters the details of whichIH would likely be considerably more difficult to unearth through somethingE like a Google search than most, which is why getting at least a broadnI outline of the details from some presumably neutral party who has alreadye+ compiled it is not an unreasonable request.-   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:53:01 -0500s* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <3zKdndhZd_YSrfOjXTWcqA@metrocast.net>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ( news:3E6DF410.D512027@vl.videotron.ca... > Bill Todd wrote:I > > I agree with you about Powell.  But while McCain would certainly haves beenH > > several cuts above Dubya in many ways, on this particular issue he's quite.0 > > close to the Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz view. >cK > I have a faint hope that Powell will announce his resignation the day thee USAQK > begins its invasion of Iraq without UN consent. He could then run for thet1 > democratic ticket and become president in 2004.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:03:23 -0500-* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <YHWdnZbZ9oBhr_OjXTWcpw@metrocast.net>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ( news:3E6DF410.D512027@vl.videotron.ca... > Bill Todd wrote:I > > I agree with you about Powell.  But while McCain would certainly haves beenH > > several cuts above Dubya in many ways, on this particular issue he's quites0 > > close to the Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz view. >oK > I have a faint hope that Powell will announce his resignation the day thei USAeK > begins its invasion of Iraq without UN consent. He could then run for theR1 > democratic ticket and become president in 2004.n  H Possibly, but I doubt it.  Some people have expressed the suspicion thatF Powell is being a 'good soldier' and carrying out the decisions of hisH Commander even though he strongly disagrees with them, and that could beL true.  Or he could be being a pragmatist who has decided that he can do more4 good within the process than he could outside of it.  E But in either case what he has been doing since embracing the idea ofuK unilateral use of force is completely antithetical to what his views seemedeJ to be earlier and is *already* having destructive effects on the coherenceI of the international community (principally, distancing the U.S. from the K rest of it).  The actual start of hostilities will certainly make that evenoE worse, but if he has been willing to damage the ties already it seemsc: unlikely that he'll renounce the policy at that late date.  L Powell's resigning *earlier* would likely have generated sufficient domesticL opposition to Bush to stop him in his tracks.  Resigning at the start of theK hostilities would be too little, too late:  as a Democrat, I wouldn't trust 2 or support him after the damage he's already done.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:49:32 -0500g* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <DsqdnRi_cvBToPOjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>  8 "David Webb" <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message% news:b4l9t3$inl$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...2   ...    > SeerJ http://users.mweb.co.za/l/ll/lloyd/5-SpecialStudies/JewishHostilities.htmlJ > for a non Jewish view of the conflict. Note in particular the Jewish use ofF > terrorist attacks on Arab Buses in Palestine, letter and book bombs,
 attacks on0 > Hotels etc before the establishment of Israel.  J Thanks.  My vague recollection was that nothing the Palestinian extremistsF are now doing was any worse than some of the atrocities perpetrated byL Jewish extremists back then (and continuing, though diminished, considerablyB thereafter), but specifics are far preferable to dimming memories.  H > Also note the attacks on Arab villages and forcible expulsion of Arabs from# > their homes during 1948 and 1949.   L Not all of which was State-sponsored, but some of it was (and Israel appears9 to have turned something of a blind eye toward the rest).P   >rH > The Jews have suffered greatly but that does not excuse Israel for the4 > suffering they have inflicted on the Palestinians.   Exactly.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:19:23 -0500f* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <u5qdnU3FB8BQ2fOjXTWcoA@metrocast.net>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageA news:5ulba.89409$em1.6428@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...  > 7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageh. > news:2AydnSZCEepwwPCjXTWcow@metrocast.net... > >-2 > > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageG > > news:jbaba.207959$UXa.39786@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...  > >  > > ...g > >eF > > > Israel was constituted under valid resolutions of the U.N.. From > itstB > > > formation in 1948 until relatively recently, Israel has beenH > > > surrounded on all sides (except the Mediterranean side) by nations > who D > > > swore that they were going to obliterate Israel and its JewishE > > > residents from the face of the earth - not the Arab (Muslim ando@ > > > non-Muslims) and Jewish citizens of Israel, just the Jews. > >tH > > And not without some reason - a testament to the ham-handedness with > which G > > Israel was formed.  That of course was the U.N.'s fault rather thantE > > Israel's, and as I've said once Israel had become a fait accomplii	 > rolling D > > back the clock is not something I'd advocate - but the desire to > obliterateH > > the continuing physical manifestation of the humiliation is entirely > > understandable.h >e >sD > Exactly how long is it that somebody should take to get over their? > 'humiliation'? Or should the 'humiliation' be fanned forever?t  H Depends on the degree, and the extent to which avenues for redressing itG continue to exist.  Attempting to retake the land in 1948 was certainlyLI understandable.  Another attempt in 1967 doesn't seem at all far-fetched.nE And the occupation of yet *more* land at that point started the clock6F again - with the continuing occupying presence keeping it running ever since.   >aE > Some 'Christians' would perpetually fan the notion that Jews killedcD > Christ and use that 'message' to perpetually oppress them and deny > them rights.F > Some Muslims fan the flames of hatred of Christians for the CrusadesG > and use Bush's recent utterings of the word 'crusade' to reinvogorate  > that hatred.G > Some Macedonians fan the flames of hatred for the Turks for massacress > that occured in the 1300's.aA > Closer to home, Quebec has the slogan "Je me souviens" on theiraG > license plates. Just what is it that they are 'remembering'? That the.G > Brits handed them their butts in 1759? That's what some in the QuebecuC > government would prefer Quebecers remember because it suits theirw > separatist agenda.+ > Ask an Albanian about the 1915 massacres.-0 > Or very close to home, ask an American Indian.  F Don't be absurd.  Not even the last two situations occurred within theJ memory of any person living today (and activities involving the redress of4 injustices to American Indians have not yet ceased).   >n > To all I say, get over it.  J Easy for you to say.  Perhaps even possible if the Israelis get out of theI Occupied Territories.  Otherwise, it's more realistic to say, "Better geto1 used to the status quo, including the terrorism."t   <more ancient history snipped>  F > Ask a Jewish person, whether a survivor of WWII or one that lived in: > the US during that period, what they feel about Germany?  @ The Germany of 1933 - 1945 is nothing like the Germany of today.    Some may feelE > a revulsion and loathing of Germans and anything German, many won't - > forgive, but most will say 'that was then'.   L Not when it comes to continuing to hunt down German war criminals or seekingE restitution of funds and property when they can be identified.  And I 6 consider such continuing efforts entirely appropriate.    Today there is no desire"H > to have an Israeli or US state sponsored policy of pushing the GermansD > into the sea and obliterating them even though some might say that* > there is ample reason to think that way.  G That's because Germany hasn't been persecuting the Jews for over a halfeK century.  Israel continues persecuting the Palestinians and occupying theirg land at this very moment.    > That was then, this is now.t  * 'Now' is exactly what we're talking about.   ...i  >   The fact that the Palestinians were acting not as vigilantes > unwillinghA > > to submit their concerns to duly-constituted authority but asa
 > guerillaG > > warriors of last resort because that duly-constituted authority was ) > > powerless to deal with the situation.  >'E > 'Palestine' is not a recognized nation under the U.N.  - Jordan haseG > given up on the West Bank, Egypt on Gaza. The closest formal identitytF > they are ever called is 'occupied territories' but without any otherD > qualifier. Palestinians have observer status at the U.N., but then; > again if they do then perhaps the Kurds ought to as well.I  L None of which has anything to do with the fact that the U.N. *has* attemptedH to address their plight and been rebuffed by Israel (with the continuingG support of the U.S., though we have expressed reservations in this areaGC ourselves).  Having failed to obtain relief through the appropriate L channels, their use of violence as a tool to demand it is hardly surprising.   ...o  D > > Israel's main current problem is not with its Arab neighbors but
 > with theE > > Palestinians in the lands it is occupying.  And if it could bring  > itself tonC > > addressing the Palestinian problem appropriately, its neighborsa > would become! > > much closer to being friends.n >o >nD > The Palestinian problem is mostly Arafat's ego and policies ratherE > than what Israel is doing or not doing. There were several deals on F > the table *equally*  palatable/distasteful to both sides that Israel > said it would sign.a  D Gee, if they had *really* been equally palatable, then by definitionI Israel's willingness to sign would have been matched by the other side oft
 the table.  K Your posts so far have not exactly seemed unbiased.  That's why I asked fortJ specifics about the nature of the proposals so that I could make up my own4 mind about who was being reasonable and who was not.  -  All Arafat had to do was take a pen from his ' > pocket and sign, but he chose not to.d >d? > There are excesses on both sides occurring in Israel/occupiedt@ > territories which should stop. Of that I'm sure we both agree.  E Having both sides stop would tend to perpetuate the status quo of therL occupation, which I don't agree is appropriate.  Abhoring violence is alwaysJ easy for the party that is otherwise relatively satisfied with the current/ situation and holds the power to perpetuate it.s   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:17:18 -0500g* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <FxOdnSJ4_5X9z_OjXTWcoQ@metrocast.net>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in messagee' news:3E6DF3C2.F50685@vl.videotron.ca...g   ...   6  when a government calls some who opposes its policiesI > "unpatriotic", something very very wrong is happening. When a govermentu treatsI > an ally who *disagrees* with it as almost an ennemy, there is a seriouso problem. >rL > And when a government who pretends to be democratic is ready to overrule aK > democratic vote at the United Nations and illegally go to war to invade aoH > country that has done nothing against the USA, then there is something VERY > VERY VERY wrong.  * I couldn't have said all the above better.   >n( > It is time the USA population woke up. >oC > Isn't the amendment about the right to bear arms designed to give7	 americans J > the power to oust a rogue government ? Wasn't that the original intent ?  H Not apparently.  While I don't claim to deep historical knowledge of theD debate leading up to the Second Amendment, its text seems clearly toI indicate that the intent was to ensure the presence of a duly-constituted K authority (perhaps in nature similar to the National Guard or its reserves,"I which were not themselves contemplated at the time) to maintain security:o  K "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,nG the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.",   ...   C > All that is left now if for Ashcroft to start sending to jail anya
 dissentersL > to the plan to invade Iraq since they would be a "danger to USA security".J > The american public has so far supported all the illegal imprisonment ofF > thousands of LEGAL immigrants, the american public has supported the illegal K > detainment without any due legal process of hundreds in gantanamo bay for$ overH > a year,  it is likely that they would support the jailing of those who speakDI > out against the war since they would obviously be terrorists wishing tos( > destabilise homeland security etc etc.  L Well, a U.S. citizen acting on U.S. soil has been imprisoned for a consideraJ ble length of time now without indictment or access to counsel because theK government claims he was conspiring in terrorist activity.  This appears tod! violate both Amendments V and VI.   J Of course, the Constitution is not written to apply only to U.S. citizens,E so treatment of some of the other people you note above is equally ino violation of it.   >sL > Maybe, one day, the americans will wake up and wonder "how the hell did weK > support all those abuses, why didn't we rise up and oppose those, why did. we5 > insult the few who dare to rise up and speak out ?"  >eJ > A bit like the german population after world war 2 , who, upon awakening toC > what really happened, must have wondered how they could have been  brainwashed D > into supporting the plans of their then government which seemed so	 patrioticaH > and which were designed to make germany so much better, safer etc etc.  # A very reasonable parallel to draw.g   >>J > Bush Jr and his cronies are good at one thing: brainwashing the americanI > public. A few years from now, the american public will thank the frenchm forg > what they are doing today.   I wish I could count on that.s   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 21:52:22 GMTu# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>0: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsI Message-ID: <qUsba.214178$UXa.51362@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>1  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message , news:HR-cncgwB8vCsvOjXTWcpg@metrocast.net... >a0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageD > news:CGkba.89023$em1.32884@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... > > C > > Rather than me re-hashing what would amount to several thousand  books ? > > worth of detail, discussion, and nuance, I'd suggest a readc	 through awC > > variety of publications contemporary with the events - NYT, The-D > > Economist, Jerusalem Post, something from the Arab world, etc... to< > > get a feel for the different interpretations of what was
 discussed,C > > offered, agreed to, and/or rejected. Find a local synagogue and  mosqueC > > and talk with the rabbi or imam, both of whom should be 'tuned'i intoF > > the feelings and opinions of their respective communities. This isF > > issue is a lightning rod for high-voltage emotions and keeping the: > > facts separate from the feelings is not easy for many. >nB > I suspected that it might be easy for you, since you had offered comments onlF > the matter.  Both the two proposals and the differences between them shouldC > at least largely be matters of record, but matters the details of  whiche@ > would likely be considerably more difficult to unearth through	 somethinghA > like a Google search than most, which is why getting at least a  broadvC > outline of the details from some presumably neutral party who hase alreadyb- > compiled it is not an unreasonable request.M  E For some background, try the following. Be advised that some of these B sites are not 'independent' in that they may contain commentary byF people who are rather 'close' to the goings on, or are mouthpieces forA the parties. That's why I still recommend some of the more widelyd; respected publication mentioned earlier for a somewhat moreu@ dispassionate viewpoint. This list is obviously not complete nor+ necessarily representative of all opinions.e   Rabin Proposal1 http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH087u0sF http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/watch/Peacewatch/peacewatch1998/180 .htm   Barak Proposal, http://www.iris.org.il/divided_jerusalem.htmA http://www.hdip.org/Mustafa/why_palestinians_could_not_accept.htme? http://israelemb.org/sanfran/News&Media/background/pa_rheto.htm F http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0101/a rticle/010111d.htmlt1 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/390629.stms     Generalr4 http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/07/brooks.htm1 http://www.freeman.org/m_online/jan03/sherman.htm'1 http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/arafatbio.html      One last long comment:  E The 1948 war was a co-ordinated attempt by Arab nations to annihilatecF the Jewish residents of Israel. Nothing more, nothing less, and to sayF otherwise is to be revisionist. Of the Arab residents of the new stateA of Israel, some chose to stay during the fighting and be passive, D choosing neither one side or the other; some assisted the Israeli's;B some chose to flee for safety; while others chose to fight againstE Israel. It's really only the last category of Arab residents/familiesvD that were the core of the refugee 'crisis'. All the other categoriesA of Arab residents either remained, or chose to come back to theiruD homes/businesses/farms or decided to stay away from Israel for good.  D As to the refugee crisis, most everyone seems to conveniently forgetC that the refugee camps created in Jordan, Syria, and elsewhere wereoC deliberately underfunded by their respective host governments for a @ variety of reasons internal to the political needs of those host? countries and the media attention that squalid conditions would C engender. It's true that refugee camps are no picnic, but certainly E within 1-2 years people can be given decent housing, education, jobs.MF But over the course of *decades*, the Arabs nations actively sought toE keep the refugee camps substantially as they were at their inception. D The Arab nations had the ability to absorb and assist the 'refugees'F much better than they did, especially in the years after the first oil< price shock in 1973, but they found it expedient not to. TheB Palestinians have far greater cause to point fingers at their ArabF 'brethren' for their sorry state of affairs over the decades than they
 do of Israel.e  C Recall that there was ferocious fighting inside Jordan in the earlyfC 1970's when Arafat tried to hijack the government of the country insD order to acquire a larger 'base' with which to use to attack Israel.D Internecine Arab politics has had more to do with the current hatredA of Israel and Jews by the Arabs, and the lack of progress towards B peace than anything Israel ever did. Arafat and other Arab leadersA spent 10% of the energy they have expended on hating and fighting-? Israel towards helping the people they claim to represent, Arab0B civilization and culture would again flourish as it did in the age% when they gave the world mathematics.B    2 Bill, you're on your own from here.  Over and out.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:35:27 -0500n* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <DDidnWJ7WYM8y_OjXTWcow@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:OQ4RTiPRlqgm@eisner.encompasserve.org...X   ...i  H > "The study went on to claim that Donahue presented a 'difficult public face forJ > NBC in a time of war. .,.,. He seems to delight in presenting guests who arenI > anti-war, anti-Bush and skeptical of the administration's motives.' Thep reportL > went on to outline a possible nightmare scenario where the show becomes 'a homeJ > for the liberal antiwar agenda at the same time that our competitors are waving" > the flag at every opportunity.'"  J So:  MSNBC felt that it could not tolerate a *single program* that gave anG anti-war people a voice, because none of its competition tolerated any.o> Boy, that sure supports your case for balanced media coverage.   ...-  8 > The absolute worst thing that could happen would be toD > do nothing, and *as a result* a catastrophe occurs that kills many@ > Americans here again.  And after the fact it was determined to > originate in Iraq.  C But of course most of those people opposed to war are *by no means*eE advocating 'doing nothing':  they're just observing that a war is notw required to maintain security.  J Your logic would support going to war against any number of countries thatK *might* at some point try to do us harm.  And several of them actually have ( tried to do so in the past, unlike Iraq.  0   The mandate after 911 was to go to war against > terrorism.  J The only absolutely clear mandate was to find and punish those responsibleK for the attack.  Everything else was embroidery added by the Administration E and not opposed (at least until recently) by others because they wereoK fearful that if they did so they would be painted with the Administration'sn@ broad anti-patriotic brush (which fear turns out to be extremely well-founded).  J And the spin Dubya and his thugs are putting on the current U.N. situationD is utterly nauseating.  Fortunately, an increasing percentage of theH American public appears to be waking up, albeit slowly, to what's really	 going on.   :   It won't win a popularity contest and it certainly won't/ > change or differ much across administrations.w  H Well, Carter has already come out publicly against war with Iraq at thisH time, so it's pretty clear that at least *one* past Administration wouldH have differed quite markedly indeed.  Of course, since war with Iraq hasC absolutely nothing to do with terrorism save in the rhetoric of theX< Administration spin-doctors, perhaps that wasn't your point.   >r@ > IF we go in there a blow things apart, I am certain there willC > be enough documentation and folks that know where the bad weaponsuA > are (chemical , biological) that we will find them.  Or just aso= > likely , he gets to pop off a few before we stomp them out.d  G Whoops - guess it was your point after all, so my comment above stands.a   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 16:01:18 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)c: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <GupfbiYyYnds@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <3E6DF410.D512027@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:l > Bill Todd wrote:M >> I agree with you about Powell.  But while McCain would certainly have been M >> several cuts above Dubya in many ways, on this particular issue he's quite / >> close to the Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz view.n > O > I have a faint hope that Powell will announce his resignation the day the USAeK > begins its invasion of Iraq without UN consent. He could then run for thel1 > democratic ticket and become president in 2004.n  F    My respect for Dubya inched up a tiny bit today when the US put offF    the planned date because of opposition within the security counsel.C    I thought he was going to accept the French veto and go with thejG    argument that the majority voted in favor.  Maybe he didn't even geto    the majority?  I    Powell, however, always looks like he's disatisfied and delivering the,K    party line for his boss.  I suspect he had more than a little influence hE    over the above.  I too wish he would resign if the US invades with '    only Tony Blair for outside support.h  #    Powell, however, is no Democrat.l   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 16:11:03 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)h: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <kTDoKD4HgNN1@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  ` In article <3E6DF3C2.F50685@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:  L > And when a government who pretends to be democratic is ready to overrule aK > democratic vote at the United Nations and illegally go to war to invade a M > country that has done nothing against the USA, then there is something VERYT > VERY VERY wrong.  E    Since any one of the permanent members can veto a security counselH1    resolution it's not a 100% democratic process.D  H    International law says any country can take up arms to defend itself.D    Bush claims he's defending America, other's claim he's not.  It's$    not an illegal war if he's right.  C    But it is the first time the US has gone to war without a directtE    provocation.  That's something no nation should rush into anymore.n  O > Uf Clinton almost got impeached because he got a blow job in the oval office, I > I find it appaling that a president who abuses his power and launchs anoM > unprovoked attack a foreign country to invade it and install a USA friendlyiC > government, that such a president  would get away with it totallyn' > unchallenged, without any opposition.   H    Clinton did get impeached.  Not for sex, but for lying in court aboutG    it.  He was not found guilty because it was bad politics and becausesH    it's the kind of thing a great many people could see themselves lying	    about.r  J    Bush is being challenged by all except Congress, which is the only bodyA    which can actually stop him.  Congress would rather play partyeE    politics.  Kudos to the British for not playing party line on thiso    one.   F    But the American public clearly knows what's going on.  They may beF    lax on some details or slow to act on some issues, but they do knowE    what's going on.  They wouldn't have cared for a guilty verdict ontF    Clinton, they don't care for the way the last election was handled,@    but they just might let a few young folks get killed over theD    combination of Sadam's threatening posture and the impact on oil.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 17:38:48 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)i: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <3gBrxvFJ6l5G@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  _ In article <DDidnWJ7WYM8y_OjXTWcow@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:OQ4RTiPRlqgm@eisner.encompasserve.org...e >  > ...w > I >> "The study went on to claim that Donahue presented a 'difficult publice
 > face forK >> NBC in a time of war. .,.,. He seems to delight in presenting guests whoe > are J >> anti-war, anti-Bush and skeptical of the administration's motives.' The > reportM >> went on to outline a possible nightmare scenario where the show becomes 'a- > homeK >> for the liberal antiwar agenda at the same time that our competitors aref > waving# >> the flag at every opportunity.'"e > L > So:  MSNBC felt that it could not tolerate a *single program* that gave anI > anti-war people a voice, because none of its competition tolerated any.n@ > Boy, that sure supports your case for balanced media coverage. >   A 	That was part of the assessment.  But the other trimmed portionstC 	mention the obvious.  Poor ratings translate into poor sponsorships@ 	which turns into a money losing venture.  MSNBC can't afford to% 	sponsor Donahue if no one else will.a    9 >> The absolute worst thing that could happen would be tonE >> do nothing, and *as a result* a catastrophe occurs that kills manyiA >> Americans here again.  And after the fact it was determined toa >> originate in Iraq.  > E > But of course most of those people opposed to war are *by no means*dG > advocating 'doing nothing':  they're just observing that a war is not8  > required to maintain security.  : 	The proof is very hard to come up with.  The genie is out 	of the bottle.    > L > Your logic would support going to war against any number of countries thatM > *might* at some point try to do us harm.  And several of them actually have * > tried to do so in the past, unlike Iraq. >   ? 	Where do you see that in the words I wrote?  I don't see that.t  < >   It won't win a popularity contest and it certainly won't0 >> change or differ much across administrations. > J > Well, Carter has already come out publicly against war with Iraq at thisJ > time, so it's pretty clear that at least *one* past Administration wouldJ > have differed quite markedly indeed.  Of course, since war with Iraq hasE > absolutely nothing to do with terrorism save in the rhetoric of theo> > Administration spin-doctors, perhaps that wasn't your point. >   A 	Good example in Carter and you really had to dig for that one.  VD 	Why not mention some of the current democratic candidates that are G 	against it?  Very short list?   How about former president Clinton or - 	Senator Hillary Clinton?a  J "WASHINGTON - The House of Representatives yesterday approved a resolutionN giving President Bush authority to wage war on Iraq  and the Senate was poised to go along.  O The finally tally in the House vote was 296 to 133, with the 14-member New York-O City delegation evenly divided. Both of New Yorks senators  Hillary Clinton andp* Charles Schumer  endorsed the resolution."    A 	You see , politics results in strange bedfellows.  And it reallyl@ 	is about politics.   Or is it?  Or would some of these folks beG 	voting on principle?   A true liberal would oppose war at all costs.  nF 	So these democrats that voted to authorize the president to wage war 8 	aren't even good liberals.  Or maybe liberals gone bad?   				Robn   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 00:09:20 GMTr! From: rob.buxton@wcc.spam.govt.nz : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants% Message-ID: <3e6e78fb.428953392@news>t  8 On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:05:14 +0100 (MET), Phillip Helbig+ <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:s  I >> I doubt it. Remeber, these people danced in the streets in celebrationeC >> of the 9/11 attacks. I really don't think that raises Americans'   >> opinions of them much at all. >>F >Careful, for two reasons.  First, "these people" are, by a selection I >effect, the people you see on the news.  Why would the news show people r> >just doing normal stuff?  So what you see on the news is not  >representative. >lH >Second, as has been well documented, the most famous of these pictures H >was faked.  A woman was told she would get some food if she cheered in F >front of the camera.  Hey, I've done worse things to get food.  Then E >this was shown and it was said she was cheering because of the 9/11  	 >attacks. 3 Yes, I felt similarly disturbed about that footage.p2 It was the same short two clips shown repeatedly.   D There was an interesting short doco on Al Jazera (spelling) the newsC agency that, among other things, broadcasts the Bin Laden tapes. It @ seems they've upset just about every Arab Leader as well as manyB Western ones.  Which I reckon means they're doing something right.  B They're now planning on putting an English version out which would* provide a very interesting view on events.  E In the meantime I'll stay with the BBC and programs like Panorama forl' insight into the Middle East situation.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:49:45 -0400s0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E6E75F8.67C8C06B@vl.videotron.ca>e   Rob Young wrote:L > "WASHINGTON - The House of Representatives yesterday approved a resolutionP > giving President Bush authority to wage war on Iraq  and the Senate was poised > to go along. > Q > The finally tally in the House vote was 296 to 133, with the 14-member New YorkBQ > City delegation evenly divided. Both of New Yorks senators  Hillary Clinton and , > Charles Schumer  endorsed the resolution."    L Was this something that was passed last fall at a time it was hoped that theN UN would back the USA, or is this passed recently when it was obvious that theM USA had failed to produce the evidence needed to convince its allies and thus 7 was going alone to invade Iraq without any legitimacy ?-   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 17:52:35 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303111752.1f55a944@posting.google.com>p  d "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<DsqdnRi_cvBToPOjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>...: > "David Webb" <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message' > news:b4l9t3$inl$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...o >  > ...  >  > > See M >  http://users.mweb.co.za/l/ll/lloyd/5-SpecialStudies/JewishHostilities.htmlvL > > for a non Jewish view of the conflict. Note in particular the Jewish use >  ofeH > > terrorist attacks on Arab Buses in Palestine, letter and book bombs,
 >  attacks one2 > > Hotels etc before the establishment of Israel. > L > Thanks.  My vague recollection was that nothing the Palestinian extremistsH > are now doing was any worse than some of the atrocities perpetrated byN > Jewish extremists back then (and continuing, though diminished, considerablyD > thereafter), but specifics are far preferable to dimming memories.    A You neglect the destruction of Jewish temples in Jerusalem by theaF Arabs. You probably neglect a lot more. We really need a more complete
 picture here.a    J > > Also note the attacks on Arab villages and forcible expulsion of Arabs >  froml% > > their homes during 1948 and 1949.  > N > Not all of which was State-sponsored, but some of it was (and Israel appears; > to have turned something of a blind eye toward the rest).o >  > >cJ > > The Jews have suffered greatly but that does not excuse Israel for the    $ This is an enormous understatement.     6 > > suffering they have inflicted on the Palestinians. > 
 > Exactly. >  > - bill    A Why is it that we hear that child abusers aren't totally at fault C because they, too, were victims of child abuse? Shouldn't they knowh better? No one ever says so.  E And we hear other excuses for other criminals. No one ever says "they E should know better because they have been victims of the same type ofsA thing." But we do hear such statements when Jews are the subject.fC Seems rather unfair to me, especially when an incomplete picture ofd events is presented.  ? It looks like when a non-Jew commits a crime, someone will makey# excuses for it. But never for Jews.s  C Certain minorities have sufferred greatly in the U.S. And they were @ given special breaks for it. They were given a break. But mostlyD condemnation for the Israeli Jews is present in this thread and fromF much of the world. I think one can expect the Holocaust to have a veryD huge affect on a people. But no break at all is allowed for that. NoE break at all is allowed for being victims of one of the worst crimes,-? if not the worst, in this century, or even millennium. There isrD condemnation as if WWII never happened. But breaks galore for anyoneF else! Including the losers of WWII! There was no Marshall plan for theB Holocaust victims. And people here can only pound on the Jews. But breaks galore for anyone else!  @ Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the Jews in= pre-Israel targeted military targets. And this is after beingfB double-crossed by the British. I don't think the Arabs did much toF kick out the British, but I may well be wrong on that. But if I'm not,D I don't see why the Jews should be expected to just hand over all ofE then-Palestine to the Arabs. I do know that history varies enormouslyaC on what you read, so the source here is not enough to go by. It mayi> well not be the complete story. So don't be so hasty to judge.  E Additionally, I am under the impression that the land of Israel has alC lot more Jewish history to it than any other. I can't even think of F any other history in that land, but I can think of much Jewish history
 in that land.   D And Bill, you yourself admit many holes in your knowledge of IsraeliE history, but you are quick to condemn Israel nonetheless. You thought ? Israel started the Yom Kippur war. You didn't even know how thenB boundaries evolved over most of the history of Israel and you comeE here and just pound away with endless criticism. I really don't thinkl that's fair.  C And I don't think it's fair to give the impression that all IsraelisD actions were just done for the hell of it. The vast majority, if notB all of it, was in reaction to violence perpetrated against Israel.E Even if you justify that violence (against Israel), you should expectwC a people to defend itself and you must suffer the consequences. You-D don't punch a bigger, more powerful person in the face, get wallopedA because that's all the bigger person can do to stop you, and then < complain about being walloped! Yet this is what we see here.  F And for the sake of the last 5% of the OTs, is it really worth all theF losses suffered by both sides because of the Intifada? Would it reallyB have been so terrible if the Palestinians had accepted or at leastD tried to bargain with Ehud? All this extra suffering for a tiny part of a small land?  A And do you really think that if the U.S. just suddenly meets your D standards of international behaviour the Al Qaeda will just suddenly? pack up and go away, with an apology to boot? That's just plaino ridiculous.t   Alan E. Feldmanh   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 01:33:40 GMTcL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants6 Message-ID: <00A1CB7C.D1E92524@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  a In article <OQ4RTiPRlqgm@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:O >In article <00A1CAD5.3AC64DD5@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:d >> In article <gnhjgYzbPCcS@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes: >> n >sM >> Second off, Donahue got cancelled despite being the highest-rated show on t >> MSNBC.  c > : >	His show was canceled due to a large decline in ratings: >nC >http://www.allyourtv.com/0203season/news/03042003buyersregret.htmlo  K This is not a contradiction.  It was still the highest-rated show on MSNBC.t   >nP >All of this was going on at the same time as a frustrating stall in the ratingsM >of the show. By late August, network executives had began to discuss ways togK >boost the numbers, and for many, that meant moving the show towards a moreuE >"centrist, women-friendly environment." In fact, NBC executives haveuN >consistently claimed that they had hoped for a show that was attractive to anJ >"undeserved demographic...women, libertarians, the Middle American Silent3 >Majority that should be the core of our audience."w   >p= >	Other sources bear out the precipitous drop in ratings thata >	lead to cancellation.   O I'm glad other sources do, because your quote says "a frustrating stall", which'O doesn't mean they kept falling, it means they weren't growing after the initial M fall-off when the people who were curious turned in and didn't like the show.r   >I- >	That and the fact that Donahue is old news:s > D >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15858-2003Feb28.html >iM >"That report--shared with me by an NBC news insider--gives an excruciatingly J >painful assessment of the channel and its programming. .,.,. The harshestP >criticism was leveled at Donahue, whom the authors of the study described as 'aE >tired, left-wing liberal out of touch with the current marketplace.'n > P >"The study went on to claim that Donahue presented a 'difficult public face forM >NBC in a time of war. .,.,. He seems to delight in presenting guests who areoO >anti-war, anti-Bush and skeptical of the administration's motives.' The reporthP >went on to outline a possible nightmare scenario where the show becomes 'a homeP >for the liberal antiwar agenda at the same time that our competitors are waving! >the flag at every opportunity.'"  >oI It's curious that MSNBC chose this time to stop calling itself "America'soN Newschannel" and drop the waving-flag bug from their logo, incidentally.  Just# another bad decision on their part.b   >e8 >	The reference below highlights the underlying problem: >eC >http://www.allyourtv.com/0203season/news/03042003buyersregret.htmlh >gO >The battling for the heart and soul of the show escalated after the results ofyK >an October focus group further convinced network news executives that PhilcP >needed "some help" turning the show around. That focus group led to a series ofK >additional "fine-tuning" moves, with special attention being given to PhildJ >himself. "I personally like Donahue, but our numbers were telling us thatF >viewers thought he has too combative, and often said things that someJ >respondents considered almost unpatriotic," says one network insider. "InL >retrospect, I think we may have overreacted, but I honestly thought we were# >doing what was best for the show."t >s= >	The underlying problem being is that there is no message ord. >	a message that flies in the face of reality.  N "Too combative" is a style issue, not a "no message" issue.  And, uh, where doO you get "no message" or "a message that flies in the face of reality" from that  quote?   >eA >	Just "attack".  Borne out by Ann Coulter's insightful comments, ) >	meaning that's all they have: "attack."s  N This is the point where I should give up trying to have a discussion with you,K because we come from different universes.  In my universe, Ann Coulter is aeJ vicious, hate-filled, delusional-or-lying attack dog who doesn't care whatK tactics she uses to trash liberals and whom I have never seen put forward alC constructive program.  Her book is a sham; her columns (archived ataN townhall.com, incidentally, if you want to read a bunch at once and get as bigN a stomachache as I did)  are a farrago of slurs, wisecracks, and lies that tryK to make the reader feel superior to the liberal devils (and to poor people)hE while twisting what few facts she uses and stripping away any logicalgH connection between her rhetoric and her topics.  In your universe, she's
 insightful.  a  J Further, in my universe, the airwaves - radio talk shows, most of Fox NewsO Channel shows, etc, are filled with 'conservative' voices who are on the attackiK all the damn time.  They trashed Clinton, they trashed Gore, they did theiriL best on Daschle.  What is that if not "combative" and "attack attack."?  AndH why is it only bad if liberals do it?  (Not that Donahue was remotely asH combative or in-your-face as those shows; Bill Maher comes close, but heL doesn't produce as unified a message because he's got such a non-doctrinaire bunch of opinions.)    >sE >> His show was the thing that worked best on that network, which wasrP >> admittedly a network in trouble.  (The actual cable news viewership is prettyO >> small compared to any broadcast network, and that pie doesn't divide up verylP >> well in three ways.  CNBC and MSNBC both used to have a lot of finance shows,L >> which worked, but lost quite a lot of viewership after the market crash.)O >> Fox and CNN are top two in viewership.  Fox entertains most effectively; CNN O >> reports the news best.   MSNBC management, which is completely floundering, ,Q >> apparently decided that they were going to try to compete on Fox's turf, whichdO >> is why they cancelled Donahue at the same time they hired Michael Savage andhL >> Jesse Ventura.  I think they're still going to be number three and in big >> trouble a year from now.n >nE >	That's one analysis but isn't borne out by what occured.  His show i@ >	started out to huge numbers (see the reference, over a millionD >	viewers).  Liberals and fans of Donahue were hopeful and obviously >	tuned out.  M How isn't it borne out by what occurred?  A bunch of people tuned in to start O with, but didn't find it compelling enough to organize their lives to watch it.e5 It dropped off from the opening.  That happens a lot.s  L You're making this a referendum on liberal/left opinion (of which there are,O incidentally, a broad spectrum, and as I've said before, there are leftists whosO support the pesky war and rightwingers who don't; there are also plenty of realvI conservatives who don't support Mr. Ashcroft's continual assault on civiliE liverties.)  It's not that; it's a single TV show on a network that's L floundering.  MSNBC couldn't give Donahue any lead-in audience; if you don'tI have that, you're only going to win if you can be compelling enough to be 4 "appointment television", and that's extremely rare.   >eQ >> But can you tell whether the problem is that Donahue was liberal, that Donahuet3 >> was dull, or that nobody watches MSNBC anyway?  G >iB >	Yes.  Some of everything.  I would say the combination of thingsA >	that went wrong would be combativeness (attack attack) with no $D >	message or an anti-war message.  No surprise about the end result.  M See, my problem with the idea that combativeness repels all viewers, as I saysN above, is that Fox is making good ratings with shows full of combativeness andH attacks.  And if you ever watched the show you'd know that Donahue had a. message, although you might not agree with it.  P (And why is "having a message" a rating of a talk show?  What's Leno's message?  He does okay.)     >e >> I can't.  Bill Maher has hisCO >> own idiosyncratic mix of views, many of which are breathtakingly leftist; heoD >> gets viewership because he's _not dull_, and because he's on HBO. > C >	Hooray.  A funny liberal.  Attack attack with humor.  That helps, , >	probably the only way to get away with it. > H >	If presenting a message (or attempting to) , you get Donahue.  Doesn'tC >	work because you can't generate a message.  Attack attack withoutr >	humor doesn't cut it.e  M I don't understand what you mean by "can't generate a message."  Feel free torK say "can't generate a message I agree with."  And I can't even really agree O that cuddly Phil is an attack dog of the left, unless you think even putting ont. leftists and having a discussion is an attack.   >  >> h >>>n@ >>>	Now the question to you.  Of the major networks, how many ofE >>>	their hosts are self-proclaimed conservatives?  I'll make a deal.mB >>>	For every conservative you can trot out on the major networks,@ >>>	(newsdesk, hosts ... not just actors.  That wouldn't be fair' >>>	at all.)  I'll trot out 5 liberals.< >> y >> First off,  >: >	[snip] >a% >	[trot them out], I didn't think so.e >g  G It's kind of a juvenile trick to clip the part where I explain why yourlI question is irrelevant and then claim victory because I didn't answer it.W  H But here's another version: Go read the archives at www.dailyhowler.com.N It doesn't matter if the telejournalists proclaim themselves to be liberals orM conservatives, if they mindlessly repeat demonstrably false RNC spin, as theyo do.f   >>>> To reclip:, >>>> aM >>>>>> become extremely easy for that one side to manipulate enough of the USwN >>>>>> population that polls will show support for a rogue government's plans. >>>> dL >>>> Yup, at least for a while.  The trick is "manipulate _enough_ of the US >>>> population".e >>>> e >>> B >>>	Yep.  Us po' insular Merikuns are sooooooo easy to manipulate.@ >>>	More so than any other country.  Funny how we are accidently9 >>>	so successful.  Success must equate with gullability.T >>>sC >>>	"I have some land in Florida and a bridge in Brooklyn for sale,t >>>	which would you prefer?" >> lN >> Dude, a lot of Merikuns are against the war with Iraq.  You evidently thinkI >> they're wrong.  How did they get that incorrect opinion?  Did somebody L >> manipulate them? Did somebody lie to them?  Are they gullible?  No?  What >> happened? >> t >sF >	I can't prove they are "wrong".  But clearly given a choice that is F >	"either" "or", one may be correct, and one may be fatally incorrect.G >	That said, the shell game Saddam is playing is quite obvious.  He is tI >	stalling for time, attempting to play nations off against one another, M& >	etc.  He is a master of deception.   > 8 >	The absolute worst thing that could happen would be toE >	do nothing, and *as a result* a catastrophe occurs that kills many  A >	Americans here again.  And after the fact it was determined to  E >	originate in Iraq.  The mandate after 911 was to go to war against eG >	terrorism.  It won't win a popularity contest and it certainly won't i/ >	change or differ much across administrations.e > @ >	IF we go in there a blow things apart, I am certain there willC >	be enough documentation and folks that know where the bad weaponscA >	are (chemical , biological) that we will find them.  Or just asl= >	likely , he gets to pop off a few before we stomp them out.n >sE >	Keep in mind there are numerous known weapons unaccounted for.  TheuB >	inspectors are chasing them down and not finding them, borne out> >	by Powell's presentation to the UN (the shell game of movingG >	things around).  I highly doubt Saddam will turn them over regardlessiF >	of UN resolutions to do so.  I could be wrong, I hope to be wrong.  4 >	There is no joy in war, no matter how you view it.    O While I agree withyour last sentence, that's not an answer to my question.  TheiN US population is significantly divided on the issue.  Somebody may be  wrong. K Does that make one side gullible?  If it does, your sarcasm to JF is hardlys merited.  If not, why not? o  E [I have made a point of not mentioning my opinion on whether or not atO preemptive war on Iraq is a good idea here, and I'm trying not to be drawn intor a discussion on that issue.]   -- Alana  O ===============================================================================e0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056rM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025oO ===============================================================================n   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2003 03:02:33 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants6 Message-ID: <b4m808$21j2d8$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  = In article <b096a4ee.0303111752.1f55a944@posting.google.com>,e1 	spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:n > .sC > You neglect the destruction of Jewish temples in Jerusalem by theaH > Arabs. You probably neglect a lot more. We really need a more complete > picture here.i   We certainly do.  H The last "Jewish Temple" in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans around 70 AD.   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   l   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 22:20:26 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E6E9941.3243D332@vl.videotron.ca>l  M > >       Keep in mind there are numerous known weapons unaccounted for.  The,J > >       inspectors are chasing them down and not finding them, borne outF > >       by Powell's presentation to the UN (the shell game of moving > >       things around).a  N It is a shame that you didn't listen to european news that night of feb 5. YouL would have seen why the Powell presentation didn't provide ANY evidence, andA that included european intelligence experts who said exactly why.   N Secondly, on two occasions, the chief UN inspectors have blasted the so-calledE Powell evidence. Blix did for thos "shell game" with those facilitiesrN portrayed on the un-dated satelite images, and El Baradai blasted the evidenceI supplied by US/UK about Iraqi transactions to buy Uranium from Nigeria byiN stating quite bluntly that these documents, after careful study, were shown to, have been fabricated and were not authentic.  L This si why, the minute the USA startts its invasion of Iraq, *ANY* evidenceL that the USA magically uncovers cannot be trusted because the USA could haveG planted it in order to justify its illegal invasion of another country.o  M Oh, and by the way, UN vetos have been used over 250 times. Ironically, once,oG in 1956, the US presented a resolution to the UN to prevent France fromtI invading to protect the Suez canal, and France vetoed it, the USA clearlyoK stated in that time that it was absolutely woring for any country to invade  another without UN approval.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 03:47:18 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants6 Message-ID: <00A1CB8F.7C9F3222@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  a In article <3gBrxvFJ6l5G@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:r > B >	You see , politics results in strange bedfellows.  And it reallyA >	is about politics.   Or is it?  Or would some of these folks benH >	voting on principle?   A true liberal would oppose war at all costs.  G >	So these democrats that voted to authorize the president to wage war n9 >	aren't even good liberals.  Or maybe liberals gone bad?o  C Where does it say "a true liberal would oppose war at all costs"?  s Liberal != Pacifist.  ( FDR was true liberal, for heaven's sake.   -- Alane    O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056aM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025.O ===============================================================================i   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 20:28:06 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303112028.14eee663@posting.google.com>i  d "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<DsqdnRi_cvBToPOjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>...: > "David Webb" <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message' > news:b4l9t3$inl$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...c >  > ...d >  > > SeesM >  http://users.mweb.co.za/l/ll/lloyd/5-SpecialStudies/JewishHostilities.htmltL > > for a non Jewish view of the conflict. Note in particular the Jewish use >  ofhH > > terrorist attacks on Arab Buses in Palestine, letter and book bombs,
 >  attacks on 2 > > Hotels etc before the establishment of Israel. > L > Thanks.  My vague recollection was that nothing the Palestinian extremistsH > are now doing was any worse than some of the atrocities perpetrated byN > Jewish extremists back then (and continuing, though diminished, considerablyD > thereafter), but specifics are far preferable to dimming memories.   Bill,@  B You say the Palestinians are justified in bombing Israelis becauseB they "took their homes away." Well, a lot of coutries all over theB world took homes away from the Jews and far worse. Yet if the JewsF followed the Arab example and started bombing all those countries, andF there are quite a few, you would be even more outraged, no? How do youC explain this difference? The only explanation I can see is that youi are biased.a  J > > Also note the attacks on Arab villages and forcible expulsion of Arabs >  froml% > > their homes during 1948 and 1949.e > N > Not all of which was State-sponsored, but some of it was (and Israel appears; > to have turned something of a blind eye toward the rest).r >  > >eJ > > The Jews have suffered greatly but that does not excuse Israel for the6 > > suffering they have inflicted on the Palestinians. > 
 > Exactly. >  > - bill  E It is not right to complain about suffering caused by forcing anothernD into self-defense (see my other post on this). If you're going to go) to war, you must accept the consequences.i   Alan E. Feldmani   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 20:34:05 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303112034.43b27218@posting.google.com>j  d "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<DsqdnRi_cvBToPOjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>...: > "David Webb" <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message' > news:b4l9t3$inl$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...e >  > ...  >  > > SeemM >  http://users.mweb.co.za/l/ll/lloyd/5-SpecialStudies/JewishHostilities.htmltL > > for a non Jewish view of the conflict. Note in particular the Jewish use >  ofnH > > terrorist attacks on Arab Buses in Palestine, letter and book bombs,
 >  attacks ono2 > > Hotels etc before the establishment of Israel.  $ Non-Jewish doesn't imply non-biased.  pL > Thanks.  My vague recollection was that nothing the Palestinian extremistsH > are now doing was any worse than some of the atrocities perpetrated byN > Jewish extremists back then (and continuing, though diminished, considerablyD > thereafter), but specifics are far preferable to dimming memories.  E Did the Jews brainwash teenagers into blowing themselves up? Did theyeF hide suicide bombers in ambulances? Did you take motives into account?   [...]n   Alan E. Feldmanw   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 20:51:58 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303112051.189ac249@posting.google.com>d  ^ david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) wrote in message news:<b4l9t3$inl$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>... [...]  > ! > The Jews have suffered greatly    > [in reference to the Holocaust, and the sum of all the rest, I believe]  F The only understatement I can think of that compares with this is whenD someone, after the death of Carl J. Lydick, remarked "Well, he was a5 little rude." Yeah, I'd say repeatedly calling peopleoB "sh*t-for-brains" and other similar words would count as "a little rude".   [...]    Alan E. Feldmani   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 00:47:06 -0500e* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <IeicnSsuGapBVPOjXTWcoA@metrocast.net>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in messagen) news:3E6E75F8.67C8C06B@vl.videotron.ca...- > Rob Young wrote:C > > "WASHINGTON - The House of Representatives yesterday approved ar
 resolutionK > > giving President Bush authority to wage war on Iraq  and the Senate was3 poised > > to go along. > >eJ > > The finally tally in the House vote was 296 to 133, with the 14-member New YorkG > > City delegation evenly divided. Both of New Yorks senators  Hillary  Clinton and . > > Charles Schumer  endorsed the resolution." >  >.J > Was this something that was passed last fall at a time it was hoped that theeL > UN would back the USA, or is this passed recently when it was obvious that thetJ > USA had failed to produce the evidence needed to convince its allies and thus9 > was going alone to invade Iraq without any legitimacy ?a  K Passed last October, before Resolution 1441.  Most people probably found itdH as inconceivable as I did that we'd actually plan to invade Iraq withoutA U.N. approval, and politicians were fearful of being demonized ase> unpatriotic if they did not support Dubya in what he was still. characterizing as part of the 'war on terror'.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 00:43:23 -0500o* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <vtudnZbPYNRgVfOjXTWcqg@metrocast.net>  ; "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message 7 news:b096a4ee.0303111752.1f55a944@posting.google.com...    ...e  C > Why is it that we hear that child abusers aren't totally at faultm1 > because they, too, were victims of child abuse?i  J You tell us:  that is *exactly* the argument you appear to be advancing toK excuse the abuse of the Palestinians by Israel.  The problem is, unlike theeJ Irgun, Stern Gang, etc. 50+ years ago, who arguably *did* deserve at least; some understanding on that basis, Israel is a *government*.o  K Governments, at least nominally democratic ones, should be held to a higherrH standard of behavior.  While populations will always contain extremes ofJ viewpoints that may cause some of their number (at the violent extreme) toK act as some of the Palestinians do, governments operate by consensus, or atnF least by majority vote, and hence their actions represent (or *should*J represent) the aggregate will of their constituents.  So while PalestinianL actions reflect criminal (even if understandable) behavior by individuals orI extremist groups rather than the general population, Israeli responses incJ kind reflect criminal (and far less defensible, because it must be *agreedL upon*, or at least ratified at the polls, by a *majority* of the population)L behavior by the state of Israel and by extension all of its people (which isK why some Israelis get so upset about it:  they are responsible even if they L are personally opposed to it, which is exactly the same way I feel about the proposed war with Iraq).    Shouldn't they know > better? No one ever says so. >oG > And we hear other excuses for other criminals. No one ever says "theydG > should know better because they have been victims of the same type oftC > thing." But we do hear such statements when Jews are the subject.y  I I've just noted above that individual Jewish extremists and organizationseD like the Irgun *do* have about the same excuses that the PalestinianC extremists do.  But Israel, being a democratic state rather than an + individual or small organization, does not.   E > Seems rather unfair to me, especially when an incomplete picture ofh > events is presented. >rA > It looks like when a non-Jew commits a crime, someone will makes% > excuses for it. But never for Jews.-  L You're really starting to sound like the kind of stereotype that modern JewsH have been fairly successfully trying to rid themselves of for at least aC couple of generations.  Being a professional victim is no longer de4J rigueur - and given that the real victims of oppression in this discussionL are the Palestinians, with the Jewish state doing the oppressing, it's a bit off-putting as well.   >eE > Certain minorities have sufferred greatly in the U.S. And they werelB > given special breaks for it. They were given a break. But mostlyF > condemnation for the Israeli Jews is present in this thread and from > much of the world.  G Interesting choice of words up to this point in your post:  this is the J first time you've mentioned Israel at all, with all your previous commentsG being about Jews in general.  I don't believe that at any point in this @ discussion have I even *mentioned* the word Jew with any kind ofD disapproval.  That's because it's not Jews per se with whom I have aG problem:  my problem is with the purely secular actions of the state ofp1 Israel, and mostly since the Rabin assassination.   4  I think one can expect the Holocaust to have a veryF > huge affect on a people. But no break at all is allowed for that. NoG > break at all is allowed for being victims of one of the worst crimes,aA > if not the worst, in this century, or even millennium. There is F > condemnation as if WWII never happened. But breaks galore for anyoneH > else! Including the losers of WWII! There was no Marshall plan for theD > Holocaust victims. And people here can only pound on the Jews. But  > breaks galore for anyone else!  A You're moving beyond stereotype into caricature now.  Get a grip.    >zB > Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the Jews in' > pre-Israel targeted military targets.   1 Take a look at the reference that David provided.t    And this is after beingD > double-crossed by the British. I don't think the Arabs did much to8 > kick out the British, but I may well be wrong on that.  K I'm ashamed to admit that my only memory of that issue comes from "Lawrence3J of Arabia" (which of course does indicate that they attempted to take overJ rule themselves, but which may or may not be historically accurate on that point).   K The rest of your post really isn't worth responding to, I'm afraid.  Try toe" stick more to substance next time.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2003 00:34:16 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <2yDzJl+fTKYp@eisner.encompasserve.org>7  b In article <3E6E9941.3243D332@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:N >> >       Keep in mind there are numerous known weapons unaccounted for.  TheK >> >       inspectors are chasing them down and not finding them, borne outTG >> >       by Powell's presentation to the UN (the shell game of movingr >> >       things around). >    > N > This si why, the minute the USA startts its invasion of Iraq, *ANY* evidenceN > that the USA magically uncovers cannot be trusted because the USA could haveI > planted it in order to justify its illegal invasion of another country.n >    	Nonsense.    0 	Wise course of action would be to find out from@ 	informants where weapons are buried and let others dig them up.  @ 	Perhaps you think we could somehow "magically" airlift and bury@ 	tons of old chemical and biological weapons and bury them.  But 	that doesn't surprise me.   				Robn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 01:21:21 -0500f( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants, Message-ID: <3E6ED1E1.8010005@tsoft-inc.com>  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:    N > You're making this a referendum on liberal/left opinion (of which there are,Q > incidentally, a broad spectrum, and as I've said before, there are leftists whooQ > support the pesky war and rightwingers who don't; there are also plenty of realnK > conservatives who don't support Mr. Ashcroft's continual assault on civila
 > liverties.)s    P Ignoring the rather meaningless and off topic discussion, one claim stands out. N   You will hear some conservatives promote getting government out of people's K lives as much as possible.  Then along comes some other conservatives, and rL what's really infuriating some of the first group also, and promote running & people's lives worse than any liberal.  P Being a conservative is rather hard when you're surrounded by idiots that think N that their perspectives should be applied to all others, excepting themselves.   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 01:18:29 -0500n* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <icucnZAmwsmqTPOjXTWcoQ@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:3gBrxvFJ6l5G@eisner.encompasserve.org...o@ > In article <DDidnWJ7WYM8y_OjXTWcow@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >p< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:OQ4RTiPRlqgm@eisner.encompasserve.org...a   ...l  ; > >> The absolute worst thing that could happen would be toeG > >> do nothing, and *as a result* a catastrophe occurs that kills manyfC > >> Americans here again.  And after the fact it was determined toh > >> originate in Iraq.a   ...r  I > > Your logic would support going to war against any number of countriesJ thatJ > > *might* at some point try to do us harm.  And several of them actually have, > > tried to do so in the past, unlike Iraq. > >t >e@ > Where do you see that in the words I wrote?  I don't see that.  I I interpreted your statement still quoted above as your justification for I going to war with Iraq (i.e., because of what might happen if we didn't).s1 If that's what you meant, then my comment stands.d   >w> > >   It won't win a popularity contest and it certainly won't2 > >> change or differ much across administrations. > >oL > > Well, Carter has already come out publicly against war with Iraq at thisL > > time, so it's pretty clear that at least *one* past Administration wouldL > > have differed quite markedly indeed.  Of course, since war with Iraq hasG > > absolutely nothing to do with terrorism save in the rhetoric of thet@ > > Administration spin-doctors, perhaps that wasn't your point. > >  >d@ > Good example in Carter and you really had to dig for that one.  K Not really.  What's more interesting is that there's considerable reason torH believe that Dubya's father doesn't approve of this course of action (atI least not without U.N. approval), though he clearly isn't about to say so K publicly:  it's precisely the strategy that he unequivocally renounced whenT) Wolfowitz proposed it after the Gulf War.   D > Why not mention some of the current democratic candidates that areG > against it?  Very short list?   How about former president Clinton orl > Senator Hillary Clinton?  L Hillary and Chuck Schumer are caught even worse than the rest of their partyL by the Administration's astute capitalization upon 9/11 to advance their ownG objectives (ironic, considering how careful we thought VMS needed to be L about not appearing to try to profit from 9/11).  As a New York Senator, anyI appearance of being 'soft on terrorism' (and Dubya has at least partially L succeeded in hoodwinking the public into believing that Saddam and terrorismI are closely connected) after 9/11 is anathema (New York House members may L have a bit more latitude, depending on the location and composition of theirH district).  And looking soft on Iraq (hardly a friend of Israel) isn't aK good idea either (especially for Hillary, given a couple of gaffes she made-& earlier that upset the Jewish voters).  J Other things being equal I'd expect Bill to have sense enough to speak outK against moving without U.N. approval.  But given Hillary's position, he mayrJ feel it more prudent just to agree that Saddam is a baddie who ought to beI dealt with without making it clear that it's the U.N. which should do theg dealing.   > L > "WASHINGTON - The House of Representatives yesterday approved a resolutionI > giving President Bush authority to wage war on Iraq  and the Senate wasz poised > to go along. >oL > The finally tally in the House vote was 296 to 133, with the 14-member New YorkE > City delegation evenly divided. Both of New Yorks senators  Hillary  Clinton andw, > Charles Schumer  endorsed the resolution." >  > B > You see , politics results in strange bedfellows.  And it really > is about politics.   Yes, it is.w  -    Or is it?  Or would some of these folks be  > voting on principle?  J Those who opposed the resolution giving up Congress's Constitutional rightD to control initiating a war *did* vote on principle.  A lot of theirL colleagues would have joined them had they not been fearful of being branded unpatriotic.  1 >   A true liberal would oppose war at all costs.i  L You've already been corrected elsewhere on that point.  My own opposition toF the proposed war would be drastically reduced (I still don't think I'dD approve of it, since I'd still consider it avoidable) if it had U.N.	 approval.t  F > So these democrats that voted to authorize the president to wage war9 > aren't even good liberals.  Or maybe liberals gone bad?   K Some may actually agree on principle.  But I think many were afraid to votef4 their conscience, and I don't forgive them for that.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2003 00:55:26 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)o: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <k3JpQIMIwcEf@eisner.encompasserve.org>e   In article <00A1CB8F.7C9F3222@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:uc > In article <3gBrxvFJ6l5G@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:c >>C >>	You see , politics results in strange bedfellows.  And it reallytB >>	is about politics.   Or is it?  Or would some of these folks beI >>	voting on principle?   A true liberal would oppose war at all costs.  iH >>	So these democrats that voted to authorize the president to wage war : >>	aren't even good liberals.  Or maybe liberals gone bad? > E > Where does it say "a true liberal would oppose war at all costs"?      	That is an easy one:   F "This is the 21st century. War is no longer acceptable as a solution."  	 	JF Mezein 	March 6, 2003     > Liberal != Pacifist. >     * > FDR was true liberal, for heaven's sake.  + 	Yes.  But not a true 21st century liberal.i 	s 				Robr   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:36:03 -0500s! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>  Subject: Re: OT: About snow...' Message-ID: <3E6E3AA3.D11C5C9F@vcu.edu>e  > are they 2x4" trusses on 18" centers, or built better???  just wondering...  F I had a heavy snow load once, and one of the corners in my living roomG started opening up, and by then, the snow had a nice cozy layer of ice, A making it impossible to scrape it off even with a toothed rake...u   JF Mezei wrote:o >  > Jim Agnew wrote: > >d8 > > oh man.. how do you keep the roofs from caving in??? > M > They are built to widthstand a few feet of now. But more than that, and youe$ > should push the snow off the roof.   -- iF "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship of the Ring"   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:54:50 GMTm" From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca> Subject: Re: OT: About snow...9 Message-ID: <Xns933B835D9687Ffalkarcabca@205.233.108.180>c  D Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> wrote in news:3E6DEA42.C6D06079@vcu.edu:  6 > oh man.. how do you keep the roofs from caving in???   Seee4     	http://www.cangeo.ca/magazine/JF03/alacarte.asp   -- n@ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca  @ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Roads1                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canada  http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4a  http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:31:13 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>a Subject: Re: OT: About snow...H Message-ID: <lIrba.91395$em1.44170@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  . "Jim Agnew" <jpagnew@vcu.edu> wrote in message! news:3E6E3AA3.D11C5C9F@vcu.edu...r@ > are they 2x4" trusses on 18" centers, or built better???  just > wondering...    D National building code in Canada plus local variances to account forD local conditions http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/irccontents.html .Code isC merely the minimum you are required to build to. Feel free to build  better and stronger.  E Trusses or stick-built roofs are usually 16" on center and aligned to F the studs of the outer walls to better handle the compressive loads atE the heel of the truss. Also in cold climates, raised heel trusses are'B more commonly used to allow better insulation in the attic spaces.E This tends to preventing significant radiant and conductive heat losseC through the roof, which in turn can lead to ice damming and heavier( local loads on the roof.  E I think that Canadian residential building code requires thicker roofeD decking than corresponding US code. It's been a while since I lookedF but I recall that it was 3/4" vs 5/8". That would make some difference under heavy load conditions.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:07:20 -0400t0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: OT: About snow.../ Message-ID: <3E6E41E4.10480053@vl.videotron.ca>e   Jim Agnew wrote: > @ > are they 2x4" trusses on 18" centers, or built better???  just > wondering...  N Well, one of the traditional house styles in qubec and eastern ontario alwaysN had very steep roofs. That was to ensure that snow didn't accumulate on roofs.  L But more modern homes have the more "USA" roof design with less of a slant. L Generally, the wind is sufficient to push the snow off the roofs during snowG storms so that much of the accumulation happens next to the wall on theh downwind side of home.  K I suspect that wharehouse style buldings with flat roofs will have strongeriM structures to hold the snow than you'd south further south.  Then again, poorl2 insulation may just melt the snow off those roofs.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:35:07 -0500v  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: OT: About snow...6 Message-ID: <1030311172205.10321A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  % On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Jim Agnew wrote:o  @ > are they 2x4" trusses on 18" centers, or built better???  just > wondering...  D Trusses or rafters?  Trusses need to be engineered.  Perhaps trusses< constructed from 2x4's would be adequate, if they had enoughD cross-bracing, but I doubt it.  You'd still be spanning the distance? between braces with only a 2x4, and I know 2x4's are inadequaterB even for a small shed or lean-to in New England, let alone Canada.  < For a rafter-style roof, code here (New England) requires atC least 2x8 (or maybe 2x10's?) on 16" centers, depending on the span.eA If the span is too great, then you need trusses or glue-lam beamsm	 or steel.   ? If you watch "This Old House", every now and then they discovert< a roof made from 2x4's or on 24" centers, etc. and look very: worried.  You can't really safely walk on such a roof (for@ construction or maintenance).  It would never take a significant
 snow load.  H > I had a heavy snow load once, and one of the corners in my living roomI > started opening up, and by then, the snow had a nice cozy layer of ice, C > making it impossible to scrape it off even with a toothed rake...w >  > JF Mezei wrote:e > >  > > Jim Agnew wrote: > > >i: > > > oh man.. how do you keep the roofs from caving in??? > > O > > They are built to widthstand a few feet of now. But more than that, and youe& > > should push the snow off the roof. >  > --  H > "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship > of the Ring" >  >    -- t John Santosi Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:24:52 -0500g' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>a Subject: RE: OT: About snow...T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D9E1D@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Jim,  B >>> are they 2x4" trusses on 18" centers, or built better???  just wondering...<<<r    Better - recycled hockey sticks.   :-)   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant' Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicest Voice: 613-592-4660> Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)a OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM	     -----Original Message-----+ From: Jim Agnew [mailto:jpagnew@vcu.edu]=20n Sent: March 11, 2003 2:36 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms Subject: Re: OT: About snow...    > are they 2x4" trusses on 18" centers, or built better???  just wondering...  F I had a heavy snow load once, and one of the corners in my living roomG started opening up, and by then, the snow had a nice cozy layer of ice, A making it impossible to scrape it off even with a toothed rake...p   JF Mezei wrote:b >=20 > Jim Agnew wrote: > >n8 > > oh man.. how do you keep the roofs from caving in??? >=20H > They are built to widthstand a few feet of now. But more than that,=20, > and you should push the snow off the roof.   --=20_F "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship of the Ring"   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 02:19:05 GMTw! From: rob.buxton@wcc.spam.govt.nzu8 Subject: Re: Pathworks 6.0C and Windows 2000 AD upgrade?% Message-ID: <3e6e9627.436412217@news>n  F On 11 Mar 2003 08:06:45 -0800, HerronRScott@hotmail.com (Scott) wrote:   >All,s >eE >We just upgraded our Windows NT PDC to Windows 2000 (mixed-mode) andwD >are now running AD.  Everything went fine except for a problem withG >our AlphaServer 4100 running VMS 7.1-1H1 and Pathworks 6.0C and acting?? >as a BDC in the same domain.  It appears to be having problemsaC >replcating with the PDC now that it's Windows 2000 with AD and PDC  >emulation.r >.3 >I'm getting the following errors in the Event log i >oC >W 03/06/03 08:54:27 PM NETLOGON  None            5718   N/A         >KAPPAD >NET5718:   The full synchronization replication of the SAM database	 >from thet$ > domain controller \\PRAPDC failed. >nC >E 03/06/03 08:54:27 PM NETLOGON  None            5732   N/A       m >KAPPAE >NET5732:   Replication of the SAM User "PRAPDC$" from primary domainI >controllerd+ > \\PRAPDC failed with the following error:e >The parameter is incorrect. >tD >Is this a known issue with this version of Pathworks?  The ultimateD >plan is to this server to its own domain and set up a trust but I'd >rather wait if possible.  >uF >Thanks for any help that you can give me (If I should post to another4 >newsgroup, please point me in the right direction.) >y >Scott  E I've not seen the error, but as someone else has commented there's  aa 6.0D.r  E Any reason why you're not considering going to 6.1? Licenses perhaps?oD With Pathworks 6.1 you can make the VMS system a Member Server. DoesC away with Trusts etc. and can then exist in a Native AD2000 Domain.m  E You may want to consider rebuilding the SAM. The basic steps are thatbC you use the config utility, change the domain name to something notoE used and let it write all the SAM Details out and then change it back  to how it was.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 14:54:56 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)  Subject: Re: Problem with DELETE= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303111454.3bd55795@posting.google.com>e  p Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<3E6DF781.5A366296@eps.zko.dec.com>... > Ferry Bolhar wrote:r > 
 > > Hi folks,h >  s5 > > $ DELETE/LOG ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.TMP.*,*.DAT.*,*.LOG.*=@ > > where ADV_ISBA_DIR is a system-wide logical name pointing to > > ISBA01::ADV_ISBA_GTX:U > >sC > > and ADV_ISBA_GTX on ISBA01 finally points to DKA205:[ISBA.GTX].3 >    > :r >   4 > >  I found some .DAT files missing in SYS$MANAGER. >  > Ouch!  >  [...]=N > That's all I have for now. There are several workarounds of course, notably:R > -    Do note rely on releated file specs where tehre are many parameters at play- > (leveles of logicals), some out of control.rP > -    Repeat the logical before each wildcard spec to re-anchor the environment > is parts fail0    " Or, put each spec on its own line:  ! $ DELETE/LOG ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.TMP.*a! $ DELETE/LOG ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.DAT.* ! $ DELETE/LOG ADV_ISBA_DIR:*.LOG.*e    P Other interesting effects are possible with file-spec lists in a DELETE command.   Try this on some junk files:   $ DELETE JUNK.TMP;, ;-1, ;-2  ? This actually deletes every other version! (Tried on VMS v6.2.)0     [...]l   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 16:20:29 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) " Subject: Re: Process State "RWCAP"3 Message-ID: <9EZ7tjsQjZHE@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  p In article <a3c44af1.0303110709.59fafb37@posting.google.com>, dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter) writes: > Guys,:E >       I had a crash on my Certification system on Saturday and I an4  > trying to determine the cause. > E >       Examination of the crash dump showed that, at the time of the,F > crash I had many processes in a "RWCAP" state.    Obviously somekindG > of Resource Wait, however I am not familiar with this particular one,i  > and I cant find documentation. > : >       Can anyone tell me what this state implies/means??      Resource wait for capacity.  E    Do you have a multi-CPU system or is there some reason your system     might have thought you did?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:23:23 +0530 5 From: "Sandeep Yelwatkar" <Sandeep_Yelwatkar@bmc.com>o Subject: PSDC missing data/ Message-ID: <v6timirub4h4f7@corp.supernews.com>e   Hi All,d  L This is regarding PSDC data collector. I have the performance data collected  using Polycenter data collector.   After I execute the commandcJ $ ADVISE COLLECT REPORT DUMP_CPUS /NODE=FTNXP /BEG=08-mar-2003:00:00:00.00 /OUTPUT=JUNK.DAT  ' It gives the following warning message.nH %PSDC-W-MISSDATA, Missing data for FTNXP  8-MAR-2003 15:42 -  8-MAR-2003 22:58  Reporting on Node FTNXPe  , The data is collected for 24 hours duration.  I I would like to know what are the probable reason for missing data duringr certain interval.l  # Again any help is most appreciated.    Thanks SandeepN   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:50:34 +0000 (UTC)t- From: lewis@spyder.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) 5 Subject: Sending from MX to Netscape Messaging Servere. Message-ID: <b4lema$sab$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  J The mail gateways that I work with were recently changed around, and now IL have to send my mail to a gateway running "ESMTP service (Netscape Messaging, Server 4.15 Patch 4 (built Dec  7 2000))".    K The blank line between the headers and the message body seems to get lost. oF When viewing the messages over IMAP in Mozilla, the first paragraph isL missing unless I do a "view source", and then it's right under the headers. L I suspect that MX is using a line separator that Netscape doesn't recognize.  J I'm running VMS 7.3-1, TCPIP 5.3, and MX 4.2.  My current workaround is toF use a machine running the built-in "Compaq TCP/IP Services" SMTP as anJ intermediate gateway between MX and the Netscape server.  If there's a wayM to configure MX to separate lines using a pair of characters -- CR+LF -- that  would be best.  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org=> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 15:52:05 -0500& From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda=1 Message-ID: <b4li9l$jlh$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>=  8 In article <ejoq6vs88tfc1ips2mlnriq8mat81oeqvc@4ax.com>,) John Sauter  <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote:m : ...18 : I think the DN20 was the DECnet front end, but I could6 : be misremembering this also.  Was the DN200 a remote8 : PDP-11-based concentrator, with printer and terminals? : 8 Right.  At one point we had a 2040 (later upgraded) that2 had *two* DN20s: one for DECnet, one for HASP/RJE.  9 We were also one of the few sites with a DN200.  This wasx; used to put terminals and a line printer in a "remote" area.7 (i.e. about a block away), connected (as I recall) with > line drivers and a synchronous null modem at some ridiculously; low speed that seemed perfectly adequate at the time.  Thisl was in 1977.  6 Our DN200 was unique in also having an 8-inch diskette drive.  More about that here:   2   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/dec20.html#kermit  8 We wound up using the DN200 only for the printer.  There7 were better ways to handle the terminals, and the DN200 7 diskette drive -- removable storage for students -- wasy abandoned in favor of Kermit.a   - Franke   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 21:38:26 -0000i+ From: m_thompson@ids.net (Michael Thompson)eY Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdan/ Message-ID: <v6slqis5u8p38a@corp.supernews.com>x  J The 1090 at Sikorsky had two DN20-MCs, a DN21-JA, and a DN25-EC. All were F 11/34a systems. It also had a DN200 for remote printers and terminals.  P One DN20 was connected to an 11/785 with a 1Mb/s coax and ran DECnet. The DN200 / was also connected with a 1Mb/s coax to a DN20.s  ( All of this equipment is at RCS/RI. See:- http://starfish.osfn.org/rcs/DECsystem/1090/ r  J In article <b4li9l$jlh$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>, fdc@columbia.edu says... > 9 >In article <ejoq6vs88tfc1ips2mlnriq8mat81oeqvc@4ax.com>,d* >John Sauter  <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote: >: ...9 >: I think the DN20 was the DECnet front end, but I could 7 >: be misremembering this also.  Was the DN200 a remoteu9 >: PDP-11-based concentrator, with printer and terminals?s >:  9 >Right.  At one point we had a 2040 (later upgraded) thatt3 >had *two* DN20s: one for DECnet, one for HASP/RJE.- >-: >We were also one of the few sites with a DN200.  This was< >used to put terminals and a line printer in a "remote" area8 >(i.e. about a block away), connected (as I recall) with? >line drivers and a synchronous null modem at some ridiculously < >low speed that seemed perfectly adequate at the time.  This
 >was in 1977.a >n7 >Our DN200 was unique in also having an 8-inch disketten >drive.  More about that here: >a3 >  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/dec20.html#kermits >.9 >We wound up using the DN200 only for the printer.  Therem8 >were better ways to handle the terminals, and the DN2008 >diskette drive -- removable storage for students -- was >abandoned in favor of Kermit. >b >- Frank   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 21:18:39 -0500-' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net>hY Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdaa8 Message-ID: <bs5t6v4ar8gk575b11s9gpmnbm2eocj80k@4ax.com>  # TLH 858 <@.> wrote (excerpted):u  D The DN87 did ANF, not DECnet.  May you rot in hell for implying thatD ANF-10 used DECnet.  There was a DECnet Phase 2 "compatibility port"D module for it, but it was very limited in what it did, since DECnet,4 at that time, was far, far behind what ANF could do.   John Sauter responded:  8 Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the DN87 use DDCMP?0 And wasn't DDCMP part of both ANF-10 and DECnet?  / I was the junior member of the DDCMP committee.T. Whenever the committee decided something about9 the protocol, I would implement it and report the resultse5 to the next committee meeting.  That's how we learnedk8 we needed a checksum after the count and before the data4 in a data message.  If you have to believe the count- before you could check it against a checksum,a/ picking a high-order bit in the count field wasn devastating to throughput.%     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 21:32:14 -0500t' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net>eY Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdaa8 Message-ID: <796t6v8bflis5vm6uufo1hcuqteit2nddb@4ax.com>  8 On Tue, 11 Mar 03 11:10:31 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: John Sauter wrote:  ; I am disappointed that the DN60 is not on the list.  It was.9 a separate product, but I tried to arrange to include the7, PDP-11 assembly language sources on the kit.  
 BAH wrote:  @ But your code would be in that file, John.  IIRC, the IBM optionB was a whole different can of worms than ANF-10.  And I don't think? anybody put the DN60 stuff on the monitor distribution tape; it @ had to be bought.  We did include the monitor stub for it on theE general distribution, but not the DN60 PDP-11 files.  That's probably B another tape that got shitcanned when Release Engineering's office got cleaned out.   John Sauter responded:  8 Well, since it was sent to every DN60 customer, it might< still be out there somewhere.  I was quite proud of that bit6 of PDP-11 code.  It had a very small real-time kernel,4 with tasks and device drivers.  The tasks moved data6 between the DTE-20 or DL-10 and the serial line units,: formatting as they went.  The device driver for the DTE-202 was two interlocked state machines, reflecting the5 half-duplex nature of the hardware.  I used the fancy 7 lights on the DL-10 as a load indicator, like the stacko' of LEDs on modern digital audio mixers.r  0 Allocating memory from interrupt level was quite. a challenge.  One task was devoted to clearing0 deallocated memory and placing it on a list from3 which interrupt level could consume it.  The MACY11M- assembler helped us count microseconds in then0 critical paths.  We took advantage of the double= buffering in the serial line units to let us take a long path30 provided that the next received character always2 took the short path.  I don't remember the highest3 speed we were able to run reliably, but it may have . been 4800 bits per second.  I do remember that adding the KMC-11 didn't help.  1 Debugging while sitting between two KL10s withoutb8 skins was quite an experience.  If I were doing it today  I would wear hearing protectors.%     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)i   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 03:43:15 GMTi" From: bugs@pu.net (Mark Hittinger)Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdai- Message-ID: <n1yba.53365$qi4.33172@rwcrnsc54>t  ) John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> writes:P9 >Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the DN87 use DDCMP?e1 >And wasn't DDCMP part of both ANF-10 and DECnet?s  : DDCMP was the layer right above the hardware on the serial9 and the sync lines.  ANF-10, Decnet, and MOP packets rodev within DDCMP envelopes.a  < On ethernet DDCMP wasn't used.  Wonder about CI connections?  3 I'm glad you mentioned this because I've remembereda: something that we may not have recovered yet.  There _was_: some sort of "task to task" gateway in the DN87 that would7 allow a low level ANF-10 connection to gateway to a lown level DECNET connection.  ; I remember a tskser.mac but can't seem to locate it in teamo9 Shoppa's archives.  I remember tskser.mac being some sorts7 of bundled item that we had to pay more for.  Where is  < tskser.mac? :-)  Just to prove to myself that I'm not having: another senior moment you can see references to tskser.mac? in http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/bb-bt99e-bb/02/kl10.fil.htmli! and in an MCO from JMF in 703.mco.  < SO there was some sort of special thing for a decnet gateway= in the DN87 stuff. I think it was contemporary with phase-II a< decnet - task to task was very low level and not fancy stuff	 like NFT.s  = Does this ring any bells for anyone else?  We should probablye) try to find the tskser distribution tape.n  ; Thanks for being stubborn about your recollection John. :-)   - In 703.mco and here is a note from JMF to us:r  D MCO: 11045          Name: JMF               Date: 17-Nov-83:05:04:29	 [Symptom] @ Too many monitor listing binders. Also, hard to do a mechanistic( edit to all ANF device service routines. [Diagnosis]y> TSKSER and RDXSER are seperate modules when they really should be included in NETDEV. [Cure]D Move TSKSER and RDXSER to NETDEV. Also, make NETDEV be a real moduleK in NETDEV which contains only the copyright statement and the edit history.t  @ He may have stealthily ended the seperate bundling of tskser and2 rdxser (where is rdxser tape?! :-)) with this MCO.  B So in 7.03+ tskser lives in netdev.   We may still be missing some* important files on the -11 side of things.   Laters   Mark Hittinger bugs@pu.netm   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:15:17 -0800o* From: "Alder" <MUNDDGNTDYTV@spammotel.com>! Subject: Re: SQS Listener (again)r+ Message-ID: <3e6e35c5$1@obsidian.gov.bc.ca>a   OpenVMS 7.3i TCP/IP Services 5.3  Rdb/SQS 7.0.6 (multiversion)  H My last post on this subject may not have provided sufficient detail forJ anyone to guess the problem, so I'll try again.  To restate the problem, IF cannot make remote TCP connections to the SQL/Services server.  RemoteF clients time out trying to connect and the SQS dispatcher log makes noI record of the connection attempts.  Local connections from within the LAN   are logged and work as expected.  E The SQS server is connected to the Internet through a gateway machine,J running Windows ME Internet Connection Sharing and the ZoneAlarm firewall.I Port forwarding is configured in Internet Connection Sharing to route TCP , any traffic for port 118 to the VMS machine.  J During installation of SQS I selected to use the default ports and the IVPI reported no problems.  My only modifications to the default setup were to E remove all but the TCPIP network ports from the server and dispatchernI configuration.  Below are several examples of how my system is setup.  TotL me, everything looks in order, but I am clearly missing something important.L If someone could please compare this setup with their own working system andK report any differences, or suggestions for further analysis, I'd appreciatee	 it a lot.    Thanks for reading,( Alderf  ; ===========================================================e $ TCPIP SHOW DEVICE_SOCKET<                            Port                       Remote< Device_socket  Type    Local  Remote  Service           Host   <snip>8   bg7106      STREAM    2199       0                   *8   bg7108      STREAM    1571       0                   *8   bg7110      STREAM     118       0                   * <snip>; ===========================================================@( $ TCPIP SHOW DEVICE_SOCKET/FULL/PORT=118  ( Device_socket:  bg7110      Type: STREAM;                       LOCAL                          REMOTEn;          Port:          118                               0 1          Host:  *                               *        Service:<                                           RECEIVE       SEND?                   Queued I/O                    0             0s? Q0LEN         0   Socket buffer bytes           0             0v? QLEN          0   Socket buffer quota       61440         61440s? QLIMIT      301   Total buffer alloc            0             0l? TIMEO         0   Total buffer limit       491520        491520e? ERROR         0   Buffer or I/O waits           9             0r? OOBMARK       0   Buffer or I/O drops           0             0l?                   I/O completed                 8             0 ?                   Bytes transferred             0             0.      Options:  ACCEPT REUSEADR KEEP   State:    PRIV   RCV Buff: WAIT   SND Buff: None  ; ===========================================================a $ SQLSRV_MANAGE  SQLSRV> CONNECT SERVER;g Connecting to server ...	 Connected> SQLSRV> SHOW SERVER;     Server Version:      7.0.     Server Platform:     Digital OpenVMS Alpha      Max Shared Mem Size: 2000 KbG     Config file:         SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SQLSRV_CONFIG_FILE70.DAT;1t%     Log path:            SYS$MANAGER:h%     Dump path:           SYS$MANAGER:t     Proc start time:     <none>o     Proc shut time:      <none>uK     Network Ports:                                     (State)   (Protocol) G       TCP/IP  port     2199                            Running   Nativev      Current shared memory usage:'       Allocation unit:      65536 bytesl3       Total memory:       2031616 bytes ( 31 units) 3       Free memory:        1769472 bytes ( 27 units)o3       Partly allocated:    131072 bytes (  2 units) L     Log File:            SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SQS_SZEGED_SQLSRV_MON_0070.LOG;F     Dump File:           SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SQS_SZEGED_SQLSRV_70.DMP;  ; ===========================================================-$ SQLSRV> SHOW DISPATCHER SQLSRV_DISP; Dispatcher SQLSRV_DISP&     State:                     RUNNING!     Autostart:                 one*     Max connects:              100 clients%     Idle User Timeout:         <none>r)     Max client buffer size:    5000 bytes3C     Network Ports:                             (State)   (Protocol)_E       TCP/IP  port     118                     Running   SQL/Services K     Log File:           SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SQS_SZEGED_SQLSRV_DIS00370.LOG;OI     Dump File:          SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]SQS_SZEGED_SQLSRV_DIS003.DMP;   ; ===========================================================a" SQLSRV> SHOW SERVICE GENERIC FULL; Service GENERICA%     State:                    RUNNINGt*     Owner:                    SQLSRV$DEFLT*     Protocol:                 SQL/Services-     Default Connect Username: <not specified> !     SQL version:              7.0       Autostart:                on-     Process init:             <not specified>t-     Attach:                   <not specified>a-     Schema:                   <not specified> %     Reuse:                    SESSION .     Database Authorization:   CONNECT USERNAME-     dbsrc file:               <not specified> -     SQL init file:            <not specified> $     Appl Transaction Usage:   SERIAL$     Idle User Timeout:        <none>*     Idle Exec Timeout:        1800 seconds     Min Executors:            2l      Max Executors:            10     Running Executors:        2s     Clients Per Executor:     1t     Active Clients:           0a   Access to service GENERIC      Granted to users: .         PUBLIC  PRIVILEGED_USER 'SQLSRV$DEFLT'   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:35:03 -0800a* From: "Alder" <MUNDDGNTDYTV@spammotel.com>! Subject: Re: SQS Listener (again) + Message-ID: <3e6e3a67$1@obsidian.gov.bc.ca>.  / Sorry, forgot to show the SQS account settings:e   UAF> SHOW SQL*  1 Username: SQLSRV$DEFLT                     Owner:vK Account:                                   UIC:    [701,1] ([SQLSRV$DEFLT])l< CLI:      DCL                              Tables: DCLTABLES& Default:  SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SQLSRV$DEFLT] LGICMD:f" Flags:  DefCLI DisForce_Pwd_Change# Primary days:   Mon Tue Wed Thu Friu+ Secondary days:                     Sat SunsF Primary   000000000011111111112222  Secondary 000000000011111111112222F Day Hours 012345678901234567890123  Day Hours 012345678901234567890123F Network:  -----  No access  ------            -----  No access  ------F Batch:    -----  No access  ------            -----  No access  ------F Local:    -----  No access  ------            -----  No access  ------F Dialup:   -----  No access  ------            -----  No access  ------F Remote:   -----  No access  ------            -----  No access  ------D Expiration:            (none)    Pwdminimum:  6   Login Fails:     0> Pwdlifetime:         90 00:00    Pwdchange:      (pre-expired)> Last Login:            (none) (interactive),            (none) (non-interactive).9 Maxjobs:         0  Fillm:        50  Bytlm:        50000t9 Maxacctjobs:     0  Shrfillm:      0  Pbytlm:           0e9 Maxdetach:       0  BIOlm:        60  JTquota:       4096.9 Prclm:           8  DIOlm:        60  WSdef:         2048e9 Prio:            4  ASTlm:       250  WSquo:         3072B9 Queprio:         4  TQElm:       255  WSextent:      4096j9 CPU:        (none)  Enqlm:     18000  Pgflquo:      40000  Authorized Privileges:   NETMBX       TMPMBX  Default Privileges:    NETMBX       TMPMBXI   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:37:22 -0600i1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>d! Subject: Re: SQS Listener (again)l' Message-ID: <3E6E9D62.37994804@fsi.net>e   Alder wrote: > 1 > Sorry, forgot to show the SQS account settings:v >  > UAF> SHOW SQL* > 3 > Username: SQLSRV$DEFLT                     Owner:uM > Account:                                   UIC:    [701,1] ([SQLSRV$DEFLT]) > > CLI:      DCL                              Tables: DCLTABLES( > Default:  SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SQLSRV$DEFLT]	 > LGICMD: $ > Flags:  DefCLI DisForce_Pwd_Change% > Primary days:   Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri - > Secondary days:                     Sat SunaH > Primary   000000000011111111112222  Secondary 000000000011111111112222H > Day Hours 012345678901234567890123  Day Hours 012345678901234567890123H > Network:  -----  No access  ------            -----  No access  ------H > Batch:    -----  No access  ------            -----  No access  ------H > Local:    -----  No access  ------            -----  No access  ------H > Dialup:   -----  No access  ------            -----  No access  ------H > Remote:   -----  No access  ------            -----  No access  ------F > Expiration:            (none)    Pwdminimum:  6   Login Fails:     0@ > Pwdlifetime:         90 00:00    Pwdchange:      (pre-expired)@ > Last Login:            (none) (interactive),            (none) > (non-interactive) ; > Maxjobs:         0  Fillm:        50  Bytlm:        50000R; > Maxacctjobs:     0  Shrfillm:      0  Pbytlm:           0e; > Maxdetach:       0  BIOlm:        60  JTquota:       4096e; > Prclm:           8  DIOlm:        60  WSdef:         2048n; > Prio:            4  ASTlm:       250  WSquo:         3072 ; > Queprio:         4  TQElm:       255  WSextent:      4096v; > CPU:        (none)  Enqlm:     18000  Pgflquo:      40000> > Authorized Privileges: >   NETMBX       TMPMBX  > Default Privileges:b >   NETMBX       TMPMBX   H This account is set for /NOACCESS. Is that correct? (I'm skeptical.) I'd expect at least /NETWORK.s   -- > David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsh http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 10:02:18 +0800 ) From: Kiasu Surfer <verykiasu@hotpop.com>r' Subject: SYS$STARTUP:LIB$DT_STARTUP.COMi8 Message-ID: <k25t6v82ii76o93sm38fi5vsk5tlc85n98@4ax.com>  O Will running of SYS$STARTUP:LIB$DT_STARTUP.COM upon startup mess up my existing1) date-manipulation scripts using lexicals?-  A I am new to this date format manipulation library startup script.r  O Does this LIB$DT_STARTUP.COM work on adhoc basis, work upon request, or will it3; make a impact on all system date format gobally by default?s     Regards,  	 Kevin Lai    **************** ** SPAM BLOCK ** ****************? REPLACE "verykiasu" with "iamverykiasu" at verykiasu@hotpop.comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:05:31 -0500f4 From: Roland Hutchinson <my_spamtrap@eudoramail.com> Subject: Re: unix:5 Message-ID: <b4lc32$20rae6$1@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de>i   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  C > It certainly is likely that I have a complete misunderstand aboutu > Open Source.    F It looks that way.  The canonical definition of open source is (oddly D enough) "The Open Source Definition", which you can consult at your 8 leisure at http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php  F Far from forbidding the sale of Open Source software, the definition  G requires that sale of Open Source software be permitted.  (In fact, it nA must be permitted for ANYONE to whom the software is licensed to oD distribute it without a further license from the copyright holders.)  0 > I had presumed that, since I had to buy RedHat3 > off the shelf, that it was no longer Open Source.   9 This may indicate another bug in your set of assumptions: D you perhaps _did_ buy a copy of RedHat, but you didn't _have_ to do  that.  5  F Someone could have given you a copy, as permitted by its licenses. Or E you could have downloaded the CD images from the net and burned your -B own copies (if you had had a CD burner and either a fast Internet G connection or a lot of patience).  You can give away copies, too, made sG from your purchased copy.  However, if you bought a copy that includes JD both open-source and non-open-source software packaged together (as E some of the "enhanced" or "professional" or "enterprise" versions of  E various Linux distros do, as well as the consumer-oriented ones like aF Lycoris and <gack!> Lindows), then these comments applies only to the  open-source parts.  B Those are the basics.  When you have meditated upon them, read on.  > There are a few subtle "gotchas" lying in wait for the unwary & Linux-and-software-sharing enthusiast:  G Red Hat has recently gotten fussy about trademark issues, and they now  E require that anyone SELLING their Linux distro not use the "Red Hat" lF name and logos and modify the distro's software package that contains D icons of their trademarked logos so that the trademarked images are ? replaced by others. (Hence, for example, "Pink Tie Linux" from dH cheapbytes.com.)  These restrictions do not apply to people who want to * give Red Hat away rather than selling it.   E SuSE Linux depends on a proprietary installer (YAST2), so the system sG taken as a whole doesn't satisfy the Open Source Definition. (It comes -G close: the license for YAST2 does permit copying and modification, but rB not re-selling.)  You are permitted to copy the SuSE disks from a B friend, but you can't buy cheap "unofficial" copies like the ones E cheapbytes.com sell of other distro--only the official SuSE-packaged eG boxed retail version can be sold commercially.  SuSE does not make the nF disks available for downloading, although they do let you download or G install the whole distribution over the net -- just not in the form of t easy-to-use-and-copy CD images.s  H The basic versions of other major Linux distros (e.g. Debian, Mandrake, @ Slackware) remain, as far as I am aware, entirely open source.    C (I refrain from mentioning Caldera d/b/a SCO as they don't seem to eF qualify as a "major distribution" any longer, among any other reasons E that might be adduced to justify passing them over in stony silence.)a   -- yA Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.-  < NB mail to my_spamtrap@eudoramail.com is heavily filtered to? remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.3   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:47:03 -0700e% From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening)n Subject: Re: unixe5 Message-ID: <1frnmom.1unj866gjis20N%lars@bearnip.com>s   <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:  / > In article <b4j17d$9ic$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>,a> >    hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:J > >In article <b4ibsd$313$8@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:  H > >Which code?  IBM has gone for open source in a *big* way, and I'm notB > >sure that Red Hat even *has* any code any more that isn't open. > C > It certainly is likely that I have a complete misunderstand aboutn> > Open Source.  I had presumed that, since I had to buy RedHat3 > off the shelf, that it was no longer Open Source.e  G Oh, you still can download the OS and the common sources from their FTP B server, but then you won't have free support and other value-added	 features.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 16:22:43 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e Subject: Re: unixm3 Message-ID: <VmFMk9z$RLC9@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  E In article <b4kv4a$rq0$5@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:  > C > It certainly is likely that I have a complete misunderstand about > > Open Source.  I had presumed that, since I had to buy RedHat3 > off the shelf, that it was no longer Open Source.f  H    RedHat isn't selling you the source.  You can download that for free.F    RedHat is selling you the packaging, including a much easier way to%    install then starting from source.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 03:43:52 +0100-* From: Giles Todd <gt@localhost.at-dot.org> Subject: Re: unix 8 Message-ID: <a97t6vkpq8ip9hhot92otfu8ajvcs2l6do@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:48:52 +0000 (UTC), hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu3) (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote in message," <b4kt0k$nrq$2@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>:  J > That one has very few equations in it, unlike almost everything I do.  ID > used to put things up in postscript, but trying to teach people toG > install ghostview took just too much time.  I eventually threw in theaJ > towel and wend to the evil .pdf.  That file is latex in Kluwer's article8 > class, which then took trips through dvips and ps2pdf.  C ps2pdf output makes your eyes hurt when viewed in a PDF viewer, but2= usually works out all right once printed.  I remember readinguE something about ps2pdf and 'Type 1' fonts and then immediately forgot A the details.  It was in a FAQ somewhere.  Perhaps I found it in an" Google search -- I can't remember.  C There's another variant of TeX which has its own dvi2ps driver, theeB output of which does not suffer from this problem.  eTeX?  I can't remember for sure.   Giles. -- 0 Having one of his vaguer days.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2003 02:03:49 GMT0 From: gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) Subject: Re: unixn3 Message-ID: <1047434629.419329@elaine.furryape.com>4  G In article <b4kv4a$rq0$5@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:eB >It certainly is likely that I have a complete misunderstand about= >Open Source.  I had presumed that, since I had to buy RedHatP2 >off the shelf, that it was no longer Open Source.  @ No, you don't have to buy it off the shelf. You can download it,? or someone who has downloaded it or bought a copy can duplicatea it and give you a copy.   ; The only difference between buying it and downloading it isg% that you get support when you buy it.o   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Mar 2003 12:02:27 -08001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)a$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0303111202.1acd0176@posting.google.com>.  s "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> wrote in message news:<Zhbba.101194$gf7.22162767@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...AL > Has anyone attempted to share SCSI devices between a VAX and Alpha system?  C I haven't tried between a VAX and an Alpha, but I did try between a6E couple of VAX systems.  This was before Alphas were available.  I wasND in VMS Engineering and doing some feasibility studies with regard toE SCSI clusters, in the early days before SCSI Clusters even existed ast" a project, much less as a product.  ? When connecting two VAX systems together, you ran into problems F immediately.  First of all, the disks on the shared bus appeared twice@ (two UCBs), one for the local SCSI device, and a second separateC device (but with the same device name) for the MSCP-served image ofcF the disk from the other system, as discovered through the polling done by the CONFIGURE process.r  C Device names were of the form DKAnnn and DKBnnn, depending on whichsC SCSI adapter a disk was attached to.  So it was easy to end up withoB the same device having the name DKA100 on one system but DKB100 onB another system.  The file system depends on a disk having the same device name on all nodes.f  E On the Alpha side, these problems have been solved by things like thet< DEVICE_NAMING SYSGEN parameter, Port Allocation Classes, andB direct-to-MSCP-served path failover code.  VAX doesn't have any of this stuff.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 23:18:41 GMTE, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com>$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?? Message-ID: <l9uba.117860$gf7.25564003@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>8  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0303111202.1acd0176@posting.google.com...A: > First of all, the disks on the shared bus appeared twiceB > (two UCBs), one for the local SCSI device, and a second separateE > device (but with the same device name) for the MSCP-served image of H > the disk from the other system, as discovered through the polling done > by the CONFIGURE process.o >o  K That could be resolved by not MSCP-serving the drives, if there are no LAVCl workstations that need them.   No?     E > Device names were of the form DKAnnn and DKBnnn, depending on whichRE > SCSI adapter a disk was attached to.  So it was easy to end up withtD > the same device having the name DKA100 on one system but DKB100 onD > another system.  The file system depends on a disk having the same > device name on all nodes.  >   K That could be resolved by making sure you match controller id's between the.F two systems.  For example, connect DKA on the one system to DKA on theK other.  Since the device name (DKA, DKB, etc) doesn't change on each rebooti* this shouldn't be difficult to figure out.   No?-  G > On the Alpha side, these problems have been solved by things like thes> > DEVICE_NAMING SYSGEN parameter, Port Allocation Classes, andD > direct-to-MSCP-served path failover code.  VAX doesn't have any of
 > this stuff.1  L Well, why not?  Is this handled at the driver level or somewhere about that?G If it's part of base VMS code, written in Bliss or something other thanoJ assembler, than I don't see why it couldn't have been included in both theH VAX and Alpha versions.  Ok, I should say other than marketing reasons I= don't understand why they couldn't have the same feature set.u   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 23:32:01 GMTa, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com>$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?? Message-ID: <Rluba.117935$gf7.25604797@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>U  < "Rob Brooks" <brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in message' news:gUMh66uyz9pc@cuebid.zko.dec.com...-0 > "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> writes: > 9 > > Will OpenVMS/Itanium support shared SCSI in clusters?P > No.s >   J Well, you're going to have a hard time getting Alpha cluster shops to moveH to Itanium clusters, aren't you?  All those HSZ-based disk farms sittingF there and you want to what, MSCP-serve them?  ESA10000, RA7000, RA450,L RA3000 and whatever other storage array systems that rely on the HSZ40/50/70I controllers and DWZZA hubs are going to either be scrapped or upgraded to  Fibre Channel?  D Yeah, in HP's dreams maybe.  The real world holds on dearly to thoseI technology investments.  Why do you think I'm bothering to try and find ahJ solution to connecting a VAX and Alpha?  Because nobody wants to throw out the VAX!  1 No shared SCSI in OpenVMS/Itanium is a dumb idea.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 21:58:01 -0800i% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>u% Subject: [Fwd: Re: Numeric usernames]a& Message-ID: <3E6ECC69.20705@rdrop.com>   >-----Original Message-----l< > From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net] > B > Perhaps such a system seems silly from an educational viewpoint.' > but consider a prison environment :-)c  D Uh, our customers don't let their, ah, "clients", have access to the systems. That'd be bad, M'kay?   -- e# Dean Woodward, Application Engineeri> Lockworks, LLC - Jail and Criminal Justice Information Systems http://www.locktrack.com/s   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.139 ************************