1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 13 Mar 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 142       Contents: Re: 164LX and 21164 question/ Re: Analyze/Disk problem with HSD05 controllers . Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues. Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues. Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues Big Endian vs little Endian  Re: Carly's feedback link  Re: DHCP on WE1. Disk mirroring SCSI drives Re: Disk mirroring SCSI drives Re: Disk mirroring SCSI drives Re: Disk mirroring SCSI drives Re: Disk mirroring SCSI drives Re: Disk mirroring SCSI drives Re: DSM use with clusters.- Re: environment variables lost on AlphaPC 164   File Conversion from VMS to UNIX$ Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX$ Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX$ Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX$ Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX( Re: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code?( Re: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code?( Re: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code?. Re: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down?. Re: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down?. Re: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down?. RE: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down?
 just got this C Logical name table space available - how many logicals can I create G Re: Logical name table space available - how many logicals can I create G Re: Logical name table space available - how many logicals can I create G Re: Logical name table space available - how many logicals can I create  RE: memory channel Re: memory channel Re: memory channel Re: memory channel* Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants Re: One version of a file ONLY. P Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retai1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants  Recent HPTC sales  RWMBX problem?$ So is HP going forwards of backwards! Re: SSH server EAK - X forwarding ! Re: SSH server EAK - X forwarding ! Re: SSH server EAK - X forwarding  Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?  Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?  Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?   Re: [Fwd: Re: Numeric usernames]  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:58:50 +0100 + From: Roland Barmettler <rob@bbp.remove.ch> % Subject: Re: 164LX and 21164 question 7 Message-ID: <20030313115850.66443292.rob@bbp.remove.ch>    Hans Vlems wrote:    C > Did you modify the file called "nvram" ? It is a console file and = > needs two statements to allow VMS (and TRU64) to run on WNT B > designated boxes. Try Google for a recent thread in comp.sys.dec0 > where the proper srm incantations were posted.  > Hmmm... I didn't find that information comp.sys.dec, could you$ eventually point me to the article ?E So far the machine has been running Tru64 (and Linux) very nicely and  rockstable for months...   Thanks,  Roland   --" %SYSTEM-W-MNDYMRNG, monday morning   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:30:28 -0500 5 From: "Dale A. Marcy" <dqmunicorn@y12unicorn.doe.gov> 8 Subject: Re: Analyze/Disk problem with HSD05 controllers, Message-ID: <b4q15k$a28$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov>  @ "Dale A. Marcy" <dqmunicorn@y12unicorn.doe.gov> wrote in message& news:b4lohu$hf7$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov...E > I had logged a call with Customer Support because I was not able to  perform J > an Analyze/Disk on disks that were not mounted as a shadow member.  They had F > not come up with a solution to my problem.  After looking at several things, J > I came up with a theory which I have just tested and it appears my hunch was E > correct.  The 2 systems being used were Alpha Server 4100s with VMS  V7.2-2. L > I was having problems with the quorum disk not working with either node inJ > the cluster to form a cluster during boot up, but it would mount on bothA > systems after they formed a cluster on their own, so I tried to  Analyze/Disk' > the quorum disk and it gave an error:  > A > %ANALDISK-F-GETDVI, error getting device characteristics, RVN 1 ) > -SYSTEM-F-IVDEVNAM, invalid device name  > J > I was able to do directories on the quorum disk and see everything thereF > without error.  Another system manager here ran a monitor scs on the systemJ > and wanted me to look at some of the output.  I noticed during this that the L > last character of my HSD05 nodename was being truncated.  The HSD05 manualF > indicates that you can use 8 characters for the nodename and it will acceptG > that many characters and appears to use them (which I did).  However, L > apparently the Analyze/Disk, Set Volume, and quorum software does not likeJ > the nodenames that long.  I just shortened the names on all of my HSD05s to7 > 6 characters and now everything is working correctly.  > K > I do not know if this information could impact any other controllers, but  I   > thought I would pass it along. >  > -- > Dale A. Marcy  > VMS System Manager7 > SAIC - Science Applications International Corporation  > (865)576-4942  >  > Berra's Universal Law - 4 > "Before everything changed, it was all different." >  > Hint to reply by e-mail:' > Everyone knows there are no Unicorns.  >  >   L Sorry to reply to my own post again, but further testing has proven that theJ problem probably was not with the length of the nodename.  The problem wasK that I had a "-" character in the nodename.  I say probably not the length, J because I have not tested with an HSD05 set to the maximum length nodenameL without a dash in it.  I have tested with a 6 character nodename including a6 dash and it produced the same failure described above.     --
 Dale A. Marcy  VMS System Manager5 SAIC - Science Applications International Corporation 
 (865)576-4942    Berra's Universal Law - 2 "Before everything changed, it was all different."   Hint to reply by e-mail:% Everyone knows there are no Unicorns.    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 05:37:23 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)7 Subject: Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0303130537.1b0f2aee@posting.google.com>    winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote in message news:<00A1CC34.421B267F@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>...d > In article <995e39b6.0303121444.23a8eed2@posting.google.com>, ewilts@ewilts.org (Ed Wilts) writes:G > >Perhaps what I'm looking for is obvious, but I sure haven't found it 	 > >yet...  > > H > >What I need to do is authenticate a user against a a VMS account, andD > >then do *all* operations within Apache as that user.  I'd like toF > >avoid having the application do individual checks, since frankly, IH > >don't trust my developers to get it right (their attitude has been toG > >just give the apache$www the rights and not check whether or not the C > >user also has those rights) .  I'm looking for a relatively easy B > >interface they need to run first in their scripts, and then I'mF > >thinking the rest of the session will be run as a thread under that2 > >user.  Is this do-able?  What pieces do I need? >  > ? > PS: This requirement would be extremely easy to fill in WASD.  > 	 > -- Alan  >   + and would be even easier using purveyor ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:27:46 -0500 ! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> 7 Subject: Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues ' Message-ID: <3E709562.9F73B49D@vcu.edu>   = one can use the OSU server, it will do that authentication...   B can you use the cgiwrap with apache???  I would like to know also.   jim    Ed Wilts wrote:  > F > Perhaps what I'm looking for is obvious, but I sure haven't found it > yet... > G > What I need to do is authenticate a user against a a VMS account, and C > then do *all* operations within Apache as that user.  I'd like to E > avoid having the application do individual checks, since frankly, I G > don't trust my developers to get it right (their attitude has been to F > just give the apache$www the rights and not check whether or not theB > user also has those rights) .  I'm looking for a relatively easyA > interface they need to run first in their scripts, and then I'm E > thinking the rest of the session will be run as a thread under that 1 > user.  Is this do-able?  What pieces do I need?  > 	 > Thanks,  >    .../Ed    --  F "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship of the Ring"   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 10:30:57 -0800" From: ewilts@ewilts.org (Ed Wilts)7 Subject: Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues = Message-ID: <995e39b6.0303131030.2806f3fe@posting.google.com>    winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote in message news:<00A1CC34.421B267F@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>...d > In article <995e39b6.0303121444.23a8eed2@posting.google.com>, ewilts@ewilts.org (Ed Wilts) writes:G > >Perhaps what I'm looking for is obvious, but I sure haven't found it 	 > >yet...  > > H > >What I need to do is authenticate a user against a a VMS account, andD > >then do *all* operations within Apache as that user.  I'd like toF > >avoid having the application do individual checks, since frankly, IH > >don't trust my developers to get it right (their attitude has been toG > >just give the apache$www the rights and not check whether or not the C > >user also has those rights) .  I'm looking for a relatively easy B > >interface they need to run first in their scripts, and then I'mF > >thinking the rest of the session will be run as a thread under that2 > >user.  Is this do-able?  What pieces do I need? > O > To do this the way you're describing it, you'd require VMS authentication for G > each script, and then have the script use the PERSONA services to set M > themselves to the identity of REMOTE_USER.  It might be even better to just < > make the webserver run the script as the user in question.  B Is there any canned code out there I can plug in to help make this@ work or should my developers hit the books and whip this up fromC scratch?  From what I've read about the persona system services, it # seems like it's the right approach.   P > SuEXEC support, which is in CSWS 1.3.  (It's mentioned - as not there yet - inL > my book, which was printed before 1.3 came out.)  Uses PERSONA services toP > impersonate appropriate users.  Haven't played with it, but it should be able 0 > to do what you need, maybe with some fiddling.  B I don't see how suexec helps.  suexec is basically designed to runA script x as user y.  The problem is I've got a couple of thousand F users, some of which are allowed to run x and some are not, or perhapsB can run the script but can't copy files to all the possible targetD areas that the script could write to.  All have VMS accounts and theC appropriate identifiers, and the directories are controlled by ACLs A limited access as required.  Interactively it's trivial, but with E applications being ported to the web, we're opening up a large can of F worms.   A simple example would be a script that transfers a file fromD the desktop to a project area.  Some users can write to project areaB A, and some to B, some to neither, and some to both.  I should notE need separate copies of the script, and I've already got ACLs on both  A and B.  A I don't want to necessarily give the web server access to all the E project areas and then let the cgi worry about who should have access C to what since I expect the developers may just shortcut and "trust" C the user and bypass the checks.  I'm hoping for a relatively simple A solution that the cgi would call first to autheniticate the user, 7 switch personas, and then the right thing would happen.   3 Surely I'm not the first person to run into this...    Cheers, 	    .../Ed    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 10:40:31 -08001 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) $ Subject: Big Endian vs little Endian= Message-ID: <857e9e41.0303131040.50f79b9f@posting.google.com>   C The following is in response to questions Jeff Cameron posted.  The F answers are from Clair Grant the engineering lead on the port project. And posted with his ok.    Home this helps,   Sue   F ______________________________________________________________________F I have heard that the Itanium will support either Little Endian or Big Endian memory addressing.    1. Is this true?   yes    2. If so, how is this done? + 3. How is it changed from one or the other?   D Endianness is per process selectable and controls the order in whichE the process reads/writes bytes. There is a bit in the user mask field C of the processor status register that the user program can control. / The default for a VMS process is little endian.     B 4. Are the addressing bounderies on 64 bit quad-words, or smaller?  D We are not sure how to interpret your question. Take a look at IntelC IA-64 Architecture Software Developer's Manual Volume 1 Section 3.2  and see if that helps.  C 5. In OpenVMS, how big will a page of memory be, same as the Alpha?   C IA64 supports many pages sizes. The initial version of VMS will use ? 8kb pages, same as Alpha. We plan to support other sizes in the  future.    Hope this helps,   Clair    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 12:58:27 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link3 Message-ID: <Lgb6LNLwGM3A@eisner.encompasserve.org>   X In article <3E6F1D87.1050800@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: > < > Well SAP didn't run on OpenVMS so that removes one option.  C    SAP did run on VMS.  I wouldn't be suprised to find a site still     using it.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:05:04 GMT 2 From: Gib Copeland <copeland@jenni.path.uiowa.edu> Subject: Re: DHCP on WE1. > Message-ID: <ke0ca.75718$6b3.264049@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>   Oscar wrote:	 > Hi all,  > D > I am using an alphaserver DS10, which has 2 network ports and I amE > trying to get the second port to run a DHCP server (the 1st port it A > talking to the house network and the second is a little private * > network talking to some control devices) >  > Versions: 7 > Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.1 ; > on a COMPAQ AlphaServer DS10 466 MHz running OpenVMS V7.3  > C > I have configured WE0 to talk to the house network and WE1 to the E > first address of the range I want to use, plugged the laptop into a E > switch connected to WE1 and set an apropriate IP address - they can  > ping each other, no problems.  > G > I enable, configure and start DHCP with a range of IPs for the second 8 > network but try as I might I cannot pick up an address >  > I am at a loss...  > H > Are there any known problems with DHCP binding to the WE1? or anything" > else I should be looking out for >  > (I freely admit I am dumb) >  > Cheers for help  >  > Oscar   H This was fixed in V5.3 ECO 2.  DHCP client on second interface worked inE V5.0, then broke in V5.1.  You may be able to get a V5.1 patch if you  can't upgrade.   Gib   % ECO O   3-OCT-2002      Alpha and VAX             Problem:   C          A multihomed DHCP client is unable to configure interfaces :          other than the primary after starting TCPIP v5.3.            Deliverables:  9          TCPIP$INTERNET_SERVICES.EXE             V5.3-18O             Reference:   6          PTR 70-5-2131 / CFS.94873 / Req Id: HPAQ90151   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 02:30:44 -0800! From: oscar@mroscar.co.uk (Oscar) # Subject: Disk mirroring SCSI drives < Message-ID: <7c07dbc5.0303130230.838a908@posting.google.com>   Hi All,   D I have a DS10 (OVMS7.3) with 2 identical SCSI hard drives (dka0: andA dka100: ) and I want to  mirror the data on dka0 to dka100 in (as $ close to as is practical) real time.  B After a quick google I found all sorts of potential ways (and then? paniced when I saw warnings like "this WILL corrupt on DKdriver ' devices) but I do not know what to use.   C I am just after a simple mirror so, in worst case scenario, when/if A dka0 becomes unusable I can boot off dka100 (or slap dka100 in an  identical alpha)  D Any suggestions/advice would be most welcome as I am still trying to get to grips with OVMS   Thanks in Advance    Oscar    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:53:15 -0000 * From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>' Subject: Re: Disk mirroring SCSI drives , Message-ID: <b4pnus$1258@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  . "Oscar" <oscar@mroscar.co.uk> wrote in message6 news:7c07dbc5.0303130230.838a908@posting.google.com...  D > After a quick google I found all sorts of potential ways (and thenA > paniced when I saw warnings like "this WILL corrupt on DKdriver ) > devices) but I do not know what to use.   > Refs? In the old days SCSI was considered a cheap and cheerfulE alternative to 'real' disks. That hasn't been the case for some time.   E > I am just after a simple mirror so, in worst case scenario, when/if C > dka0 becomes unusable I can boot off dka100 (or slap dka100 in an  > identical alpha)  G So volume shadowing looks like the thing. Is the licence cost an issue?    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:31:45 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> ' Subject: Re: Disk mirroring SCSI drives ; Message-ID: <01KTH575RG4O9H1MPS@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   @ > Refs? In the old days SCSI was considered a cheap and cheerfulG > alternative to 'real' disks. That hasn't been the case for some time.   B Presumably not because they are no longer cheap and cheerful, but " because they are now "real" disks.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:54:20 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> ' Subject: Re: Disk mirroring SCSI drives ; Message-ID: <01KTH60WKN1Q9H1MPS@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   C From:	SYSDEV::HELBPHI      "Phillip Helbig" 13-MAR-2003 12:02:58.15  To:	IN%"oscar@mroscar.co.uk" CC:	HELBPHI $ Subj:	RE: Disk mirroring SCSI drives  F > I have a DS10 (OVMS7.3) with 2 identical SCSI hard drives (dka0: andC > dka100: ) and I want to  mirror the data on dka0 to dka100 in (as & > close to as is practical) real time. > D > After a quick google I found all sorts of potential ways (and thenA > paniced when I saw warnings like "this WILL corrupt on DKdriver ) > devices) but I do not know what to use.  > E > I am just after a simple mirror so, in worst case scenario, when/if C > dka0 becomes unusable I can boot off dka100 (or slap dka100 in an  > identical alpha) > F > Any suggestions/advice would be most welcome as I am still trying to > get to grips with OVMS  8 What you want to read is the manual on volume shadowing.   Some suggestions:   # You want to shadow the system disk.   F Since shadowing the system disk is a bit trickier, practice on another disk first.   D I would also recommend using separate disks for the system disk, the% user disk, third-party software etc.    F I would also recommend shadowing these non-system disks as well, sinceF in a typical situation there is more pain if, say, a user disk is lostB than a system disk (because it is easier to reconstruct the system disk).    F Note that if you shadow the system disk, you don't have to reboot fromH the copy if one disk becomes bad, but rather it will just carry on using" the good member of the shadow set.  H I would recommend building a cluster (the second node can be an old VAX  you got for free).  A I would recommend mounting the members of shadow sets (except the * system-disk shadow set) on separate nodes.  E For the system disk, you still specify a physical disk as the default @ boot device at the console.  When the system comes up, the otherA member(s) of the shadow set (there can be up to 3) are found (in  I contrast to non--system-disk shadow sets, where the physical members are  I specified in the MOUNT command).  However, you can specify more than one   in case the first one fails.  G I have done all of the above in my hobbyist system except the last two  A points, which I hope to get to soon.  (At the moment, my time is  H occupied by moving from ISDN to DSL, but thanks to a brilliant solution H to my routing problem by JF (haven't actually tried it yet, though, but C it looks like I have found a source from which to borrow the extra  6 router I need temporarily) I am making progress here.)  H Note that before you start with the shadowing stuff, you have to enable G non-zero allocation classes.  I mention this because it is NOT obvious  G why this needs to be done.  (It has nothing to do with the real reason  G for non-zero allocation classes, namely using dual-ported disks (which  H is less necessary with shadowing anyway if the members are on different A nodes), but rather is needed to make the disk names short enough.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 07:40:35 -0500 , From: "Island" <dbturner@nospamislandco.com>' Subject: Re: Disk mirroring SCSI drives / Message-ID: <v70v3jjm2d8c81@news.supernews.com>    oscar A we have some old KZPSC-CA Raid controllers that support mirroring  You can have one for $75 PCI Card does work in DS10   Regards      -- David B Turner Island Computers US Corporation  2700 Gregory St., Suite 180  Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@islandco.com www.hpaq.net   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:20:46 GMT A From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> ' Subject: Re: Disk mirroring SCSI drives = Message-ID: <2_3ca.2587$kz2.22488209@news-text.cableinet.net>   L If all you need is a simple mirror then you could do this with "RAID 1" doneJ for you by an appropriate controller (write cache DISABLED of course). TheJ 'array controller' could be an internal one (eg: SWXCR) or an external oneL (eg: HSZ70). My personal preference is for external discs and external arrayH controllers, but that's maybe a little excessive for what is basically aC single disc system. It does make swapping the disc subsystem (array F controller and discs) between Alphas easy though - and it sounds as if that's important to you.  I The downside of hardware mirroring is that the discs generally need to be G identical model / size etc. and that most array controllers write array L configuration metadata onto the discs, so you might well need to ensure thatH you have an identical and identically configured array controller in theI spare system - and that you know how to ensure that it copies new data to 4 old disc, not vice versa when you swap discs around.  E It really does all depend on what you're using the system for and how I valuable you system / data is to you. The more you spend the better a job K you'll do. Best case would be dual path fibrechannel to something like dual I MSA1000s (or HSG80s and a couple of dual power supply fitted StorageWorks K shelves) and using host based volume shadowing as well. Cheapest case would L be a couple of second hand 9Gb 8bit drives and a second hand 3 channel SWXCRL (note 9Gb supported disc limit with SWXCR), plus a similar configuration for the spare machine.  I I'd also be wary of a single disc system in a near real-time environment, J but again it depends on your application. Personally I'd consider a 3 discH setup - system disc, page/swap disc and data disc, ideally spread acrossL multiple controllers. More smaller spindles is often better than a few large spindles for performance.   9 Ultimately it's a cost vs. benefits vs. complexity thing.    -- Hope this helps. Cheers, Colin. ' (colinDOT.butcherAT@xdeltaDOT.coDOT.uk)    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 05:48:32 -0800; From: JNCHAMBL@TEXASCHILDRENSHOSPITAL.ORG (Jesse Chambless) # Subject: Re: DSM use with clusters. = Message-ID: <764ccbac.0303130548.1fce97e1@posting.google.com>   F DSM works very well in a cluster.  As mentioned, the write deamon will= have problems if you try an put too many users on one system.   > Additionally, DSM 7.3 and VMS 7.3-1 will be the LAST supportedD versions of DSM.  If you are just starting on the project, you mightC consider going to Cache vice DSM.  With Cache you will not have the E problems with the write daemons, you get 8 by default.  It works well D in clusters, although it is really a memory hog, and the performanceC is light speed.  Cache is not cheap, will require some re-writes of @ the system specific code for opening/closing devices etc but the, programming environment and tools are great.   Jesse     Y dittman@dittman.net wrote in message news:<A%Qba.23655$qB5.16144@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>... . > Steve Spires <Steve.Spires@torex.com> wrote:= > > Is anyone out there using DSM in a clustered environment?  >  > Yes. > K > > If so, would you mind me asking you questions about the setup etc as we E > > might be looking at this as a solution, but I've heard DSM can be L > > problematical in clusters, especially if shadowing is in use [don't know+ > > the details, just what I've been told].  > A > DSM works in clusters.  Maybe you're thinking of ISM?  ISM will  > not work in clusters.  > 0 > As for shadowing, it works very well with DSM.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:19:08 +0100 $ From: "Peter Flunger" <p-i-b@gmx.at>6 Subject: Re: environment variables lost on AlphaPC 1640 Message-ID: <b4q40t$rsv$1@newsreader1.netway.at>   Can you post the output of >>> show configuration here ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:44:41 -0500 3 From: Tom Rymes <tomnews@rymes.extraneous.junk.net> ) Subject: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX E Message-ID: <tomnews-F9A170.11444113032003@news.comcast.giganews.com>   G Hi folks, I'm back again, a little worse for wear from my tussles with  G our software vendor. One of our options is a Unixware server (booooo!)  = instead of an Alpha to replace our VAX. Aside from any other  F considerations of a VMS to UNIX move (like SCO's continued viability, H O/S features/stability/what-have-you), what are the reasonably expected F costs/trouble involved in moving existing files between VMS and UNIX? I (Keep in mind we have no TCP/IP stack running on the VAX, but we do have  
 Pathworks)  F Basically, they've quoted an outrageous price for moving/"converting" E files between the two systems, and I'm preparing to call BS on that.  I Seems to me that other than actually copying the files, some permissions  B to be set, maybe a little directory structure to build, etc there E shouldn't be much to it. Honestly, I imagine that you could even use  F Pathworks to transfer the files back and forth, using a Windows/Samba 7 host as an intermediary (since the VAX has no TCP/IP).    @ Any thoughts, comments, flames, or off-topic rants welcomed.....     Tom    --  @ To reply via e-mail, remove the extraneous junk from my address.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:33:54 -0700  From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> - Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX & Message-ID: <3E70C102.9030301@srv.net>   Tom Rymes wrote:I > Hi folks, I'm back again, a little worse for wear from my tussles with  I > our software vendor. One of our options is a Unixware server (booooo!)  ? > instead of an Alpha to replace our VAX. Aside from any other  H > considerations of a VMS to UNIX move (like SCO's continued viability, J > O/S features/stability/what-have-you), what are the reasonably expected H > costs/trouble involved in moving existing files between VMS and UNIX? K > (Keep in mind we have no TCP/IP stack running on the VAX, but we do have   > Pathworks) > H > Basically, they've quoted an outrageous price for moving/"converting" G > files between the two systems, and I'm preparing to call BS on that.  K > Seems to me that other than actually copying the files, some permissions  D > to be set, maybe a little directory structure to build, etc there G > shouldn't be much to it. Honestly, I imagine that you could even use  H > Pathworks to transfer the files back and forth, using a Windows/Samba 9 > host as an intermediary (since the VAX has no TCP/IP).   > B > Any thoughts, comments, flames, or off-topic rants welcomed..... >   & Depends greatly on what the files are.  $ Text files can be easily transfered.+ RMS Indexed files would be a lot more work.   B Also, it depends on the programs that use them. What language were- they written in? Do you have source code? ...   C If it is just being used as a file server for PC's, then you should A be able to transfer them fairly easily. A Linux box running Samba > would probably work fairly well as a replacement in that case.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 11:15:11 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org- Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX 3 Message-ID: <JXHcDosOffk3@eisner.encompasserve.org>   { In article <tomnews-F9A170.11444113032003@news.comcast.giganews.com>, Tom Rymes <tomnews@rymes.extraneous.junk.net> writes: I > Hi folks, I'm back again, a little worse for wear from my tussles with  I > our software vendor. One of our options is a Unixware server (booooo!)  ? > instead of an Alpha to replace our VAX. Aside from any other  H > considerations of a VMS to UNIX move (like SCO's continued viability, J > O/S features/stability/what-have-you), what are the reasonably expected H > costs/trouble involved in moving existing files between VMS and UNIX? K > (Keep in mind we have no TCP/IP stack running on the VAX, but we do have   > Pathworks) > H > Basically, they've quoted an outrageous price for moving/"converting" G > files between the two systems, and I'm preparing to call BS on that.  K > Seems to me that other than actually copying the files, some permissions  D > to be set, maybe a little directory structure to build, etc there G > shouldn't be much to it. Honestly, I imagine that you could even use  H > Pathworks to transfer the files back and forth, using a Windows/Samba 9 > host as an intermediary (since the VAX has no TCP/IP).    @ Do I understand you correctly that essentialy all your files are< Pathworks files and the VAX is essentially a PC file server?  G If so then you're absolutely right.  You could copy all the files using C the Pathworks interface and xcopy or your choice of backup utility.   @ I'd be mightily tempted to go that route simply because it would@ be a rock solid guarantee that the file transfer would not cause file format issues.   C On the other hand, if you are saying that the files are on your VAX A and you intend to use Pathworks as a tool to get VAX format files F from the VAX to the Unix box, because you lack any other interoperable5 network connectivity then you are asking for trouble.   E I'd probably be thinking in terms of using Pathworks to transfer some E binary archive format (.ZIP or .TAR) in that case _with the knowledge B that conversion errors are likely at the archive/dearchive steps_.  D If all you have are standard VMS text files (variable length recordsD with implied carriage control) then Pathworks is good enough.  ThoseI will transfer to the PC as standard PC format text files (stream of bytes K with CRLF as the line delimiter) and an ASCII transfer to Unix will deliver G them as standard Unix format text files (stream of bytes with LF as the  line delimiter).  E If you are dealing with binary files then you may have problems.  VMS E binary files have record boundaries.  Unix binary files don't.  There E is no universally valid way to copy them over.  There are essentially E two ways to go:  copy the on-disk binary data (including indexed file G prologues, record byte counts, pad bytes and the like) or copy the file I data from each record and discard the record separators.  Both approaches ' are highly likely to corrupt your data.   I If you are dealing with binary files containing VAX floating point values E then you also need to worry about binary data conversion issues.  The / Unix box is probably using IEEE floating point.   G If you are dealing with binary files containing longword integer values 0 then you also need to worry about endian issues.  H We need to know more than you've told us to make a valid recommendation.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:46:12 -0600a From: brandon@dalsemi.com - Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX 1 Message-ID: <03031311461246@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>e  I > Hi folks, I'm back again, a little worse for wear from my tussles with gI > our software vendor. One of our options is a Unixware server (booooo!) s? > instead of an Alpha to replace our VAX. Aside from any other  H > considerations of a VMS to UNIX move (like SCO's continued viability, J > O/S features/stability/what-have-you), what are the reasonably expected H > costs/trouble involved in moving existing files between VMS and UNIX? K > (Keep in mind we have no TCP/IP stack running on the VAX, but we do have ? > Pathworks) > H > Basically, they've quoted an outrageous price for moving/"converting" G > files between the two systems, and I'm preparing to call BS on that. hK > Seems to me that other than actually copying the files, some permissions /D > to be set, maybe a little directory structure to build, etc there G > shouldn't be much to it. Honestly, I imagine that you could even use sH > Pathworks to transfer the files back and forth, using a Windows/Samba 9 > host as an intermediary (since the VAX has no TCP/IP). a  M Years ago we migrated our Datapoint files (I believe they called it RMS also)lO to a VAX server.  We used serial connections between the two servers (DatapointrM and VAX) and used a PC as go between.  I believe we used a product similar tolL KERMIT to do the actual transfer.  This was a two step process; (1) transferM data from the Datapoint server to the PC, (2) then transfer the data from ther PC to the VAX.    8 We transfered data files, batch files, and source code.   G And as John Briggs points out, additional information would be helpful.o     John Brandon VMS Systems Administrator: Dallas Semiconductor john.brandon@dalsemi.com 972.371.4172 wka 972.371.4003 fx    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 12:58:19 -0500& From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)- Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIXy1 Message-ID: <b4qgrr$pif$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>y  3 In article <JXHcDosOffk3@eisner.encompasserve.org>,i"  <briggs@encompasserve.org> wrote:G : In article <tomnews-F9A170.11444113032003@news.comcast.giganews.com>,v7 : Tom Rymes <tomnews@rymes.extraneous.junk.net> writes:  : > ...Aside from any other J : > considerations of a VMS to UNIX move (like SCO's continued viability, L : > O/S features/stability/what-have-you), what are the reasonably expected J : > costs/trouble involved in moving existing files between VMS and UNIX? M : > (Keep in mind we have no TCP/IP stack running on the VAX, but we do have - : > Pathworks) : > J : > Basically, they've quoted an outrageous price for moving/"converting" I : > files between the two systems, and I'm preparing to call BS on that. lM : > Seems to me that other than actually copying the files, some permissions  F : > to be set, maybe a little directory structure to build, etc there I : > shouldn't be much to it. Honestly, I imagine that you could even use lJ : > Pathworks to transfer the files back and forth, using a Windows/Samba ; : > host as an intermediary (since the VAX has no TCP/IP).   : ...d : E : On the other hand, if you are saying that the files are on your VAX-C : and you intend to use Pathworks as a tool to get VAX format filesmH : from the VAX to the Unix box, because you lack any other interoperable7 : network connectivity then you are asking for trouble.> : G : I'd probably be thinking in terms of using Pathworks to transfer somelG : binary archive format (.ZIP or .TAR) in that case _with the knowledgerD : that conversion errors are likely at the archive/dearchive steps_. : F Right -- ZIP and TAR archives are either all-text or all-binary, so if5 you have a mixture, one or the other will be wrecked.   F : If all you have are standard VMS text files (variable length recordsF : with implied carriage control) then Pathworks is good enough.  ThoseK : will transfer to the PC as standard PC format text files (stream of byteswM : with CRLF as the line delimiter) and an ASCII transfer to Unix will deliverdI : them as standard Unix format text files (stream of bytes with LF as thei : line delimiter). : G : If you are dealing with binary files then you may have problems.  VMSeG : binary files have record boundaries.  Unix binary files don't.  Theree0 : is no universally valid way to copy them over. :rI If the binary files have fixed records and the record size doesn't matterhM (the record boundaries are irrelevant and can be ignored) then C-Kermit mightt be just the ticket:g  -   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckermit.htmld  F You'll need one copy on VMS and another on Unixware.  The VMS C-KermitI sender switches between text and binary mode automatically for each file.aK Binary files are sent as unmodified streams of bytes (record information issK ignored/discarded).  Text files are converted to common format on the wire, J and if you wish, character sets can be converted too (e.g. text written inH DEC MCS can be converted to Latin-1 or the PC Code Page Of Your Choice).  I Suppose a directory contains a mixture of standard VMS text files (either.G variable-length record or Stream_LF) and fixed-block binary files; theniC you can tell Kermit to "send *.*" and it will send each file in thenI appropriate mode (by default only the most recent version of each file is 7 sent but if you wish, you can tell it to "send *.*;*").n  5 If you have a directory tree, you can tell Kermit to:b     send /recursive *.*o  F and it will re-create the tree on the receiving computer, even if it's Unix or Windows.  E File dates and permissions are handled pretty much as you would wish.   D The transfers can be done over serial ports, modems, TCP/IP, or evenI Pathworks (in the latter case, only if you have a Windows or OS/2 PC withu Pathworks and Kermit 95).d  / For more information, see Kermit Case Study #5:   ,   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/case05.html  2 and Section 4.11 of the C-Kermit 7.0 Update Notes:  5   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckermit70.html#x4.11w  H Of course if you have random-access or indexed files, or need to convertF binary data formats from VAX to Intel, or need to convert data formatsH from on application to another, etc, you're going to need more than just a way to transfer the files.   - Frankg   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 07:23:02 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)w1 Subject: Re: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code?T3 Message-ID: <wiuTEYa2n04K@eisner.encompasserve.org>8  c In article <xetvwc3f4jj6@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:os > In article <pw6UaJCXlDzN@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:n > J >>    There are white papers that say both #ifdef __vax and #ifdef __alphaM >>    code may have to change, that "#ifdef __vax #else other" is less likelytJ >>    to have to change, but nothing that says it will be __ipf or __ia64, >>    or what. > F > If you do have code where AXP and IPF differ and IF AXP is not goingI > to work (because the code is exclusive to IPF), I don't see how you can G > possibly know that at this point what the necessary code changes are.b  F    I can't.  But I can read the IPF architecture manuals and the stuffG    that is coming out about VMS on it and make educated guesses.  First D    round, of course is to reverse any check for Alpha and replace itC    with check for VAX since Alpha and IPF are more likely to be the7    same.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 09:37:34 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen).1 Subject: Re: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code?t3 Message-ID: <Y7DHFetvagFz@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  q In article <wiuTEYa2n04K@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:be > In article <xetvwc3f4jj6@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:at >> In article <pw6UaJCXlDzN@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>  K >>>    There are white papers that say both #ifdef __vax and #ifdef __alphaiN >>>    code may have to change, that "#ifdef __vax #else other" is less likelyK >>>    to have to change, but nothing that says it will be __ipf or __ia64,r >>>    or what.  >> fG >> If you do have code where AXP and IPF differ and IF AXP is not goingeJ >> to work (because the code is exclusive to IPF), I don't see how you canH >> possibly know that at this point what the necessary code changes are. > H >    I can't.  But I can read the IPF architecture manuals and the stuffI >    that is coming out about VMS on it and make educated guesses.  First F >    round, of course is to reverse any check for Alpha and replace itE >    with check for VAX since Alpha and IPF are more likely to be the.
 >    same.  F I believe they will be so close that it will be _very_ seldom that anyG user mode code needs to distinguish the difference between AXP and IPF.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:58:35 GMT.& From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>1 Subject: Re: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code?d0 Message-ID: <%M2ca.287$Zg5.121@news.cpqcorp.net>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:   > H > I believe they will be so close that it will be _very_ seldom that anyI > user mode code needs to distinguish the difference between AXP and IPF.n  # That has been my experience so far.   1 I've changed lots of that code that used to read:e  	 %IF Alphaw %THENi     ... ! ALPHAk %ELSEr
     ... ! VAX  %FI    to   %IF NOT VAX) %THEN      ... ! Alpha and I64e %ELSE 
     ... ! VAX  %FIt --   John Reaganr' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leadere Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 03:32:36 -0800+ From: hsnewman@austin.rr.com (HarrisNewman)c7 Subject: Re: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down?s< Message-ID: <73dff34c.0303130332.71d9795@posting.google.com>  D It's wierd, I can ftp to the site, but get a dns error when going to! http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/n  ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E6FF630.E625BA25@fsi.net>... > HarrisNewman wrote:m > > H > > I haven't been able to get to it since Saturday.  I've sent messagesE > > to the web master as well as the contacts, without response. Doesa, > > anyone know if the hobbist site is down? > J > Came up for me, but took a while. May be having spam-bomb trouble again.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 03:37:34 -0800+ From: hsnewman@austin.rr.com (HarrisNewman)e7 Subject: Re: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down? = Message-ID: <73dff34c.0303130337.6c1a2824@posting.google.com>o  F To follow up, I was able several days ago to get to the page, but thenD it had no info in the pulldown for the decus chapter for licensing. F I'm not getting any response from the webmaster or contacts, either...  ! ftp.montagar.com works.....wierd.A -HarrisM  a  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E6FF630.E625BA25@fsi.net>...e > HarrisNewman wrote:c > > H > > I haven't been able to get to it since Saturday.  I've sent messagesE > > to the web master as well as the contacts, without response. Doest, > > anyone know if the hobbist site is down? > J > Came up for me, but took a while. May be having spam-bomb trouble again.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 07:37:53 -0600B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)7 Subject: Re: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down? 3 Message-ID: <U5USpf7SQ1Yo@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  [ In article <3E6FF630.E625BA25@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:p > HarrisNewman wrote:p >> oG >> I haven't been able to get to it since Saturday.  I've sent messagestD >> to the web master as well as the contacts, without response. Does+ >> anyone know if the hobbist site is down?n > J > Came up for me, but took a while. May be having spam-bomb trouble again. >   . Does anybody know what the current status is ?  F Attempting to connect to the web site via IP address instead of domain name makes no difference.f  > Trying to telnet to port 80 gets a connection refused message.   Thanks for any information,    Simon.   -- mB Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       L VMS advocate: One who makes a Mac advocate look like a beginner at advocacy.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:59:35 -0500p! From: VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com>n7 Subject: RE: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down?.K Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BD7@rlghncst964.usps.gov>n  4 I got a phone call this morning from someone who had8 talked to Mrs. C- the message has been relayed to David 3 and he'll be looking into things as soon as he can.i   ========================  William W. Webb - EMS Operations) OpenVMS Systems Support - USPS DSSC Annexe, 4730 Hargrove Road, Raleigh, NC 27616-2874  > 919.325.7500 x4186  <FirstInitialLastNameAtEmailDotUSPSDotGov>   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 10:33:44 -08001 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski)  Subject: just got this; Message-ID: <857e9e41.0303131033.67b81a@posting.google.com>p  5 From what I can tell this is not an Encompass survey.e  C At http://www.hpuseradvocacy.org/ the newest instapoll question haso been added:,  @ Which of the following HP platforms (which exclude those with anF announced end of life) do you plan to include in your mission-critical environment in the future?  	  a. HP-UXe  b. NonStop Server  c. OpenVMSc  d. HP-UX and NonStop Server  e. HP-UX and OpenVMSa  f. NonStop Server and OpenVMS  g. All of the above  h. None of the above   B You can view results of past questions or submit an issue today atF http://www.hpuseradvocacy.org/. The results of these polls go directlyA to HP for their review. The results for the last Instapoll are as  follows:  A Has the merger of HP and Compaq caused changes to your Tru64 UNIXg purchase decisions:3  4A I am adopting a wait and see attitude for the next 12 months - 17  15.6%g1 I am re-evaluating my long term plans - 27 24.8%  D I decided to stop purchasing AlphaServers when the IA64 strategy was announced - 34 31.2%> I have confidence in the transition of Tru64 to HP-UX and will3 continue to purchase AlphaServer systems - 31 28.4%    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 03:12:25 -08006 From: andrew.rycroft@intrinsitech.com (Andrew Rycroft)L Subject: Logical name table space available - how many logicals can I create= Message-ID: <58ba0101.0303130312.41c27991@posting.google.com>w   Hi,n  E I am about to tune my database application. This exercise will resulttF in the creation of about 1000 extra system logical names. Is there anyF way I can sse how much free logical name space there is, and if I need to increase it ?   Thanks Andrew   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:29:17 -0000i* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>P Subject: Re: Logical name table space available - how many logicals can I create, Message-ID: <b4pq2e$144u@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  C "Andrew Rycroft" <andrew.rycroft@intrinsitech.com> wrote in message17 news:58ba0101.0303130312.41c27991@posting.google.com...0  G > I am about to tune my database application. This exercise will resultcH > in the creation of about 1000 extra system logical names. Is there anyH > way I can sse how much free logical name space there is, and if I need > to increase it ?  G System logical names come out of paged pool; I don't think there is anySA other hard limit on it. SHOW  MEM/POOL/FULL will give details buteC I doubt a few KB of memory will make much difference. The hashtablej  sweet spot might change, though.  ; I would just do it and see what AUTOGEN reckons on NPAGEDYN  and LNMHASHTBL.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:30:57 -0000n* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>P Subject: Re: Logical name table space available - how many logicals can I create+ Message-ID: <b4pq5i$slc@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>   \ "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> wrote in message news:b4pq2e$144u@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk...  = > I would just do it and see what AUTOGEN reckons on NPAGEDYN  > and LNMHASHTBL.m  
 Erm. PAGEDYN.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:07:10 GMTn% From: "Safir" <axica_nopub@yahoo.com>sP Subject: Re: Logical name table space available - how many logicals can I create/ Message-ID: <2o%ba.273$R65.75@news.cpqcorp.net>1  J If the logical names are only used by one application, it would make senseK to create a private  shared logical name table for this application users :r  *  - the logicals  are hidden to other users, - the table can have its specific protection, - all the logicals can be deassigned at once     1 At application startup  !         $ SET PROCESS/PRIV=SYSNAM"E         $ CREATE/NAME_TABLE/PARENT=LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY/EXEC my_tablee  G     2.  Redefine the logical 'LNM$FILE_DEV' to include my_table for then users of the application (in their login)  D         $ DEFINE/TABLE=LNM$PROCESS_DIRECTORY LNM$FILE_DEV my_table,-.  .      _$ LNM$PROCESS,LNM$JOB,LNM$SYSTEM, ...    I (first issue a show logical lnm$file_dev /table=* to keep all the alreadyh present tables then addi	 my_table)l   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:17:59 +0100aC From: Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann <vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de>u Subject: RE: memory channelR> Message-ID: <00A1CCFC.322C7E08.7@CHCLU.CHEMIE.UNI-KONSTANZ.DE>  J >Ok, I got good response to my question about Fibre Channel and SCS.  Now,. >how about some good advice on memory channel.  J >If we get rid of our VAX's and our GS140 (with CIXCDs and CIPCAs), and we+ >get rid of our AS2100a with fast ethernet, - >and if we replace them with a pair of ES4Xs,-  M >And if we add these two ES4Xs to a cluster with two other ES40s (all runningg5 >VMS 7.2-1 now, but soon to be upgraded to VMS 7.3-1)s  J >Would it make more sense to connect them via two Gbit ethernet devices onE >separate networks (for redundancy), or to connect them with one Gbit07 >ethernet, and one memory channel (by way of a mc hub).j  J >We already have two ES40s, each with two gbit ethernets (connected to one? >network segment).  These ES40s are also connected to a mc hub.h  J >In other words, is Gbit ethernet much better than Memory Channel (or viceJ >versa) when it comes to SCS traffic and keeping a cluster running in caseK >one network dies?  We purchased our two existging ES40s and Memory ChannelI+ >adapters and hub a little over a year ago.f  K Compare the latency time numbers. I think this the biggest problem of Gbit.l   eberhard   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:00:53 -0600n From: brandon@dalsemi.como Subject: Re: memory channel 1 Message-ID: <03031310005347@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>t  L > >Ok, I got good response to my question about Fibre Channel and SCS.  Now,0 > >how about some good advice on memory channel. > L > >If we get rid of our VAX's and our GS140 (with CIXCDs and CIPCAs), and we- > >get rid of our AS2100a with fast ethernet,d/ > >and if we replace them with a pair of ES4Xs,r > O > >And if we add these two ES4Xs to a cluster with two other ES40s (all runninge7 > >VMS 7.2-1 now, but soon to be upgraded to VMS 7.3-1)  > L > >Would it make more sense to connect them via two Gbit ethernet devices onG > >separate networks (for redundancy), or to connect them with one Gbiti9 > >ethernet, and one memory channel (by way of a mc hub).  > L > >We already have two ES40s, each with two gbit ethernets (connected to oneA > >network segment).  These ES40s are also connected to a mc hub.o > L > >In other words, is Gbit ethernet much better than Memory Channel (or viceL > >versa) when it comes to SCS traffic and keeping a cluster running in caseM > >one network dies?  We purchased our two existging ES40s and Memory Channels- > >adapters and hub a little over a year ago.f > M > Compare the latency time numbers. I think this the biggest problem of Gbit.e > 
 > eberhard  : (The information I am basing my thoughts is from V. Boaen)  6 My questions/statements on the latency of MC and Gbit:  ? Does not MC latency get worse as the system workload increases?o  G Would not a Gbit or 100Mbit fare much better under similiar conditions?S  N Obviously CPU costs are involved with both, however it seems that MC costs 50%K more CPU than Gbit during heavier workloads.  This just leads me to beleiverL that under heavy workloads, the Gbit will perform as good if not better thanL MC -  that is under proper design conditions (private Gbit network for scs).  O That is where my hangup on MC and Gbit - if the above statements are true, thenhD Gbit (or 100Mbit) would be a cheaper solution.  At least for a small environment.  N In the near future, I will be using the LOCKTIME (Keith Parris provided me) toK test the SCS lock requests and hopefull get some hard comparitive numbers. eK Coupled with ECP data collection, I hope to get some good data for trending 	 analysis.,     John Brandon VMS Systems Administrator< Dallas Semiconductor john.brandon@dalsemi.com 972.371.4172 wki 972.371.4003 fx    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:33:34 -0600a From: brandon@dalsemi.com  Subject: Re: memory channelf1 Message-ID: <03031311333423@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   L > >Would it make more sense to connect them via two Gbit ethernet devices onG > >separate networks (for redundancy), or to connect them with one Gbitt9 > >ethernet, and one memory channel (by way of a mc hub).-  N There seems to be additional requirements of MC over a Ethernet solution (GbitK or 100Mbit).  Specifically with MC 1.5 and MC 2.0.  And with the version ofe VMS.  N There is the cable length requirements and the proximity of the MC hub to keep in consideration. * There is the MC limit (V2) of eight nodes.  N However, I think the MC would offer a big advantage of creating mirror sites -G using Fiber-optic cables - one could create (<= 3-km) a mirror site forMF maintaing volume shadowing, etc., at a fraction of cost of a HSG80 DRMD solution.  Keep a Disaster Recovery site online.  Has possibilities.     John Brandon VMS Systems Administratorc Dallas Semiconductor john.brandon@dalsemi.com 972.371.4172 wku 972.371.4003 fxs   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:40:10 +0000h' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyi Subject: Re: memory channelt. Message-ID: <3E70C27A.8090001@nospamn.sun.com>   brandon@dalsemi.com wrote:L >>>Ok, I got good response to my question about Fibre Channel and SCS.  Now,0 >>>how about some good advice on memory channel. >>L >>>If we get rid of our VAX's and our GS140 (with CIXCDs and CIPCAs), and we- >>>get rid of our AS2100a with fast ethernet,s/ >>>and if we replace them with a pair of ES4Xs,n >>O >>>And if we add these two ES4Xs to a cluster with two other ES40s (all runningo7 >>>VMS 7.2-1 now, but soon to be upgraded to VMS 7.3-1)e >>L >>>Would it make more sense to connect them via two Gbit ethernet devices onG >>>separate networks (for redundancy), or to connect them with one Gbite9 >>>ethernet, and one memory channel (by way of a mc hub).a >>L >>>We already have two ES40s, each with two gbit ethernets (connected to oneA >>>network segment).  These ES40s are also connected to a mc hub.y >>L >>>In other words, is Gbit ethernet much better than Memory Channel (or viceL >>>versa) when it comes to SCS traffic and keeping a cluster running in caseM >>>one network dies?  We purchased our two existging ES40s and Memory Channela- >>>adapters and hub a little over a year ago.  >>M >>Compare the latency time numbers. I think this the biggest problem of Gbit.i >>
 >>eberhard >  > < > (The information I am basing my thoughts is from V. Boaen) > 8 > My questions/statements on the latency of MC and Gbit: > A > Does not MC latency get worse as the system workload increases?  >   > Cannot comment but it is a great deal lower to start off with.  > MC latency is ~5 microseconds as opposed to GigE latency which is ~60 microseconds.  # They both have a similar bandwidth.t   regardso Andrew Harrisonn   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 01:46:37 -0500d( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>3 Subject: Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants , Message-ID: <3E70294D.9080701@tsoft-inc.com>   JF Mezei wrote:r  M In an otherwise worthless use of bandwidth, JF posted his 'once a year' good eT idea, in March no less.  The down side is another 9 months of wasted bandwidth.  :-)    G > Will american companies immediatly dump all their SAP installations ?e     Great idea!a   Dave   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:58:58 GMTn# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n3 Subject: Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantssF Message-ID: <6V1ca.20529$a41.435@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  6 "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote in message# news:ZbFEo3ucd$Ff@elias.decus.ch...t > In articleA <91947A84607D9D48B8E674A5FAB54DA6854440@tahiti.tinuk.com>, "Steve ( Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com> writes:F > > There is a similar story in today's Daily Mail stating that the US has]C > > excluded British companies from any of the rebuilding after thew event byF > > not including them in any bidding process. They say they 'may let'5 > > British firms bid for other work in the future...a > >3 >: > So what's new? >P@ > http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/archive/11-6-1999-0-57-10.html > F > "A SPECIAL task force is being set up to ensure British firms have aB > head start in the race to secure many of the lucrative contracts that, > will be on offer in reconstructing Kosovo. > E > The Government is adamant that British businesses will not lose outF onD > multi-million pound contracts, as was the case in Kuwait following thewD > Gulf War when US companies muscled in and took the lion's share of% > reconstruction work."  June 11 1999t >e> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,207677,00.html >aC > "Meanwhile, German firms - burned by their experiences in Kuwait,o? > after the Gulf War, and in Bosnia, when they won just 5.6% ofeF > contracts, though the federal republic provided 27% of the aid - areD > urging Bonn to bypass Brussels and help win them a bigger piece of then > action." June 19, 1999    E A cynic might say that war is just one big business opportunity, fromqE the production of the weapons systems to the reconstruction. And thatwC presidents are just shills acting for business interests.  And thato4 people dying is incidental to the needs of business.  E Of US policy, Jon Stewart said last night on 'The Daily Show', "We'reh> all in an SUV and the President who's driving is blind drunk".   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:52:29 GMTb# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e3 Subject: Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsmG Message-ID: <1P1ca.20501$a41.7001@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>i  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:99qm10QNHeD6@eisner.encompasserve.org...1 > In articleD <QgNba.106183$em1.36203@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:0 > >0< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:JkVSwI11iSL1@eisner.encompasserve.org...u > >> In article.E > > <91947A84607D9D48B8E674A5FAB54DA6854440@tahiti.tinuk.com>, "Stevel, > > Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com> writes:F > >> > There is a similar story in today's Daily Mail stating that the US > > hastF > >> > excluded British companies from any of the rebuilding after the > > event byD > >> > not including them in any bidding process. They say they 'may let'8 > >> > British firms bid for other work in the future... > >> > > >>> > >> That isn't quite fair is it?  After all, there is British  > >> money involved in all this. > >>? > >> But this brings up an interesting point - regarding money.o > >>A > >> We seem to be footing an awful lot of this money for variousyC > >> UN/NATO mandated actions.  Kosovo comes to mind.  Perhaps whatm
 > > shouldB > >> be done is pull back U.S. troops from Kosovo and replace them withE > >> other NATO mandated troops.  Perhaps the French would be willing  toC > >> spend quite a bit more of their money and their troops keepingr thet > >> peace?l > >>B > >> I highly doubt it.  I mean when it comes down to large money,  > >> who else is going to do it? > >e > >lA > > The US is still in arrears on its obligations to the UN.  You  can'thB > > have it both ways - use the UN when it's convenient, ignore it when itjC > > isn't and bitch about it in the process. The America I knew waso better* > > than that. How about the one you know? > >  >lB > Wait a second.  That is a seperate issue and a matter of ongoing	 > debate.-  D This is a multi-facted problem - ongoing deliquency of payments is aF blot on the US in the eyes of the world, though the 'Black Helicopter'- crowd domestically is applauding the arrears.t  C -Some of it was withheld because Jesse Helms and others didn't likeeB the idea of the UN agencies going to Africa and telling people whoE couldn't afford to have more kids about birth control. Whose majorityvF is more moral? The starving, uncared for kids in Africa, or a bunch of; 'god is on our side' Republicans? There is supposed to be ad? constitutional separation of church and state in the US but the B Republicans don't see it that way - it's just another inconvenient rule to be ignored.l  E - The US objected to peace keeping missions for years and the fundingn of them.  B - There are many other reasons the US has used to be deliquent forE years. Troll through the Congressional record (http://thomas.loc.gov)gF and you'll find them. All of them used to try to economically strangle the UN to the US's will.  A Honest participation is done through dialog, discussion, vigorous,B intellectual debate, and the powers of rational persuasion. The USD seems to think that consensus is built by throwing money towards, orA withholding money from, a problem. This is not the hallmark of an 2 honest participant. It is the hallmark of a bully.        5 >Current peace-keeping effort is what I was referringr6 > to.  Who is paying for that?  Why shouldn't there be> > 40000 French troops in Kosovo, if nothing else to rotate out; > the U.S. troops?  Why aren't there 60000 French troops onp/ > the Korean DMZ to rotate out the U.S. troops?g  ? A fair question. I believe that troops of several countries areoC rotated in/out on a fairly regular basis, though not in the numbersuD you'd suggest. Those closer to the situation may have better answers than I.n  F South Korea seems to be more eager to conclude a peace treaty with theD North Koreans than the US is. So the logical question one has to ask@ is why is the US a more reluctant partner in this process? Which8 serves US interests better, a hot peace or a cold truce?    = >We are spending a ton of money.  Why not rotate hosting U.N.g. > headquarters, maybe on a 5 or 10 year basis?  F Logistics maybe? The US crys out that the UN is wasting money. Now youC want to leave the UN building at 48th Street empty for 10 years andsF spend money building another large facility elsewhere? If you build itE in Paris or Geneva or Brussels, you can be sure that Bechtel won't be D getting the contract, and that's not good for America. All those NYC= landlords that are renting high-priced apartments to nationalaF representatives of all those countries, and all the resturanteurs, andD dry cleaners, and clothing store owners, and taxi drivers, would cryE foul. NYC was chosen because at the end of WWII it was among the onlyaC major cities in the Western world that could host such an ambitiouslD attempt. Perhaps Paris or Geneva could have, but with all the effort> and transportation resources going towards rebuilding what was; destroyed, and feeding those in need, Europe was probably auB non-starter simply for logistical reasons at the time. BTW, the UN, site in NYC was donated by the Rockefellers.    D >Why our money, all the time to maintain peace (nevermind the wars)?  B It may be inconvenient to note, but the US is not the only country that pays dues to the UN.d  C Up til Kosovo, the US has not put troops on the ground in a classic C UN-style peacekeeping mission. An even then, they were VERY late to-E the situation. All the other times US troops have been on the ground,@D in the air, or in the seas in a conflict zone it has been to protectC what are seen as US vital interests, be they commerical or nationalaC security interests (think oil, bananas, casinos, etc.., communism).n? Often it has been the US that has been the obstructing power inaC peacekeeping missions, or while not obstructing, not helping - doestD Rwanda come to mind - where nearly 1 million people were murdered inA genocidal rage? The US was begged for support in helping stop the @ massacres, but there was none forthcoming. There was no vital US interest in the area.   A Why? Because that's the way successive leaders in the White HouseoD wanted it. Because the vast majority of Americans are isolationists.B And if, as, and when, they do help, the vast majority would ratherC send a check than actually go and get their hands dirty helping. IteD served US intesrests just fine all these years to have other nations. be a proxy for the US in peacekeeping efforts.  C In Kosovo, US troops rolled around in convoys, parading in shows ofaC force like cops patrolling tough neighborhoods in their cars. OtheriE forces, Canadians, Dutch, British, etc... were more often walking theuC same streets like cops walking the beat, talking to people, winningeD them over. There's a big difference in the lasting perception of theF local populace of these two vastly different styles of behaviour. It'sF called "hearts and minds" as you may recall from the Vietnam era. WhenC properly and consistenly applied in a fair manner it works wonders.e    E > > As to the costs of the forthcoming US-Iraq war  - it's just moneyi sunkE > > into the weapons systems anyway. And the GAO won't let Bush buildo newlE > > ones unless he uses some of the ones he already has. Think of warm asF > > sort of a clearance sale of old inventory. Kinda like clearing out > > Alphaservers for Itanics.  >a> > That is a nice theory, but wouldn't be factual.  Most of the( > ordinance is newer, not old inventory: > < > http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030317/nmilitaryA.html >nB > "Unlike the first Gulf War, in which fewer than 10% of the bombs were smart,rD > this time close to 80% would be. And unlike the laser-guided bombs of 12 yearsoC > ago, these satellite-guided weapons, known as joint direct-attacko	 munitions > > (JDAMs), should be able to find their targets automatically, unimpeded by smoke > or bad weather."  C It's just a different 'electronics package' with the same steerablenD fin assembly as a LGB on the same old dumb bomb laying in inventory.    E > Pentagon planners suggest that more targets in Baghdad would be hito in theC > first 24 hours of Gulf War II than were hit in all 43 days of thev
 first war.C > The U.S. military's goal would be to deliver "such a shock on the. system that @ > the Iraqi regime would have to assume early on that the end is inevitable," AirE > Force General Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, 	 told TIMEi > last week.   Let's see...B - Water is used in the production of chemical weapons. That's dual+ use. Let's bomb the water treatment plants.tB - Electricty is used in the production of drones. That's dual use.! Let's bomb the electricty plants. F - Food is eaten by soldiers and civilians. That's dual use. Let's bomb food processing facilities.tD - Oil is used by military and civilians.That's dual use. We want the9 oil - don't bomb the oil fields, terminals, or pipelines.    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 12:59:52 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)h3 Subject: Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrantst3 Message-ID: <kAufATWfIb83@eisner.encompasserve.org>R  w In article <01KTFS1NPGXE9FRD0S@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:h  ! > And, despite weaknesses in the aH > French presidial system, the government of France can actually make a 3 > real claim to having been democratically elected.r  :    Obviously has no importance to the Bush administration.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:34:45 GMTn1 From: "Barry in Indy" <barrymeindy@ameritech.net>F( Subject: Re: One version of a file ONLY.? Message-ID: <py1ca.6937$se1.4083664@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>    Rob Young wrote:6 > In article <3e6f9f5c$1@news.si.com>, "Brian Tillman"/ > <Brian.Tillman@notnoone.notnohow.com> writes:r >>> $ create a.test;32767f >>> alsdfjk <ctrl-z> >>> $ dir/date/size a.test >>>r2 >>> Directory EISNER$DRA3:[DECUSERVE_USER.YOUNG_R] >>>C9 >>> A.TEST;32767               1  11-MAR-2003 10:52:58.23i >>>/ >>> Total of 1 file, 1 block.n >>> $ create a.testn$ >>> %CREATE-E-OPENOUT, error opening3 >>> EISNER$DRA3:[DECUSERVE_USER.YOUNG_R]A.TEST;3276m >>> 8 as output & >>> -RMS-E-CRE, ACP file create failed1 >>> -SYSTEM-W-BADFILEVER, bad file version numbere >>" >> This doesn't solve the problem. >> >> $ create a.test;32767 >> <CTRL-Z>w >> $ create a.test@ >> CREATE-E-OPENOUT, error opening A305_DISK:[TILLMAN]A.TEST; as output% >> -RMS-E-CRE, ACP file create failede0 >> -SYSTEM-W-BADFILEVER, bad file version number >> $ crea a.test;1 >>  Exit >> $ dir a.test  >>  >> Directory A305_DISK:[TILLMAN] >>  >> A.TEST;32767         A.TEST;1 >> >e1 > But you would be looking at the higher version.i >  > What was the problem?  >t7 > Somebody doing what they shouldn't be?  Accidently oro
 deliberately?o >e  ; It was an accident AFAIK. The files are part of the Studenti< Information System (SIS), from SCT. I had thought of doing a? frequent backup of the files, maybe hourly or so, but the files > are part of an online system, and so at any given time, a user? could be updating them, and you would often not be able to openP/ the file because another user has a lock on it.   A Access to the files is restricted, but the programmers have RWED. A This is why the problem occurred. I think using SET FILE/VER=1 onl> all the files might be the best solution, since anyone copying< files to production would have to be aware of what they were@ doing. (Providing someone does not create a COM file that resets9 the version limit on all the files and then does a copy!)n   --  
 Barry in Indy    Knock me out to replyl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:52:01 +0000s' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy-Y Subject: Re: OpenVMS.org: Marvel article and HP's press release for Marveland Alpha Retais. Message-ID: <3E70B731.1090306@nospamn.sun.com>   jlsue wrote:G > On Fri, 07 Mar 2003 17:07:14 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancya0 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: > E > Typical Andrew useless response.  Still saying that I have to proveeB > that the GS160s perform well on some apps, while he still hasn'tH > proven his contention that it won't perform well for any apps.  What a > crock. >   < You have published, SAP, TPC-H, TPC-C three times and Oracle: Applications, they all show that the GS doesn't perform to= the level that your marketing claims and people on this group  would have people beleive.  < Your own TPC-C results show that you had to use a cluster in; a box to avoid NUMA performance issues. Your customers haveo: posted saying that they have had performance issues moving9 from GS140/8400 to GS160/GS320 and your own engineers saye' that there are NUMA performance issues.   < In response all you are able to do is whine that my response= is useless without actually responding yourself with anything : other than a deeply embarassing reference from the Bank of Austria.  E > I don't divulge any details about my customer.  However, there is a6H > web page for HP wins, and one that's kinda neat is at Bank of Austria.< > They have 16-P GS160 systems.  check out the report below: > ; > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/Bank-Austria/e >   2 Great another example that proves my point thanks.  5 The Turbo Laser was the codename for the 8400 so yours6 customer got a 28% performance improvement moving from( an 8400 to a GS160 with 16 CPUs and 7.3.  ; Let me remind you the fastest CPU in the 8400 was according 8 to SPEC the 6/575 at 26 SPECint, the GS160 CPU's started at the 6/731 at 36.8 SPECint.e  A The maximum number of CPU's in the 8400 with anything approachingo< the same amount of memory as the GS160 config in the article is 10 though 8 is more likely.  : So your customers upgraded to a 16 CPU GS160 running a new7 version of OpenVMS employed approximately 226% more CPUa9 capacity and got the princely sum of 28% more throughput.   6 And you think this is a ringing endorsement for the GS6 I would suggest that your customer should be very very3 unhappy or at least they would be if they realised.m  4 Do you have a clue what you are talking about ??????  2 And how many limbs do you have left to blow off ??   regardse Andrew Harrisont   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 07:29:19 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)_: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <OjV5KxSljjUj@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  Q In article <3E6EF0F6.75C0E8A3@slb.com>, BAVAY Marc - GRE <mbavay@slb.com> writes:. > hello everyone > < > I am new to this group, I was searching for VMS stuff ....G > and I bumped into this somewhat off-topic but interesting discussion.w > see, I'm frenchtV > and I saw that article today : http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen031003.aspR > by Michael Leeden proposing a theory that explicitely accuses France and GermanyN > to have made a pact with islamist extremists to destry the United States ...L > and this guy work for Benador Associates, who are VERY close to the peopleJ > in power at the White House (not talking about George W. Bush of course)b > please tell me that this kind of delirium does not reflect the opinion of the american people... > have a good day  > marc      Marc,  H    No, most people here in fact do not feel that way.  Many do feel thatE    going to war without the French is like going hunting without yourwD    accordion, but we're still busy arguing over whether to go to war<    and many suspect the French should no be ignored in this.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 06:40:46 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303130640.501f8a30@posting.google.com>a  f JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3E70129E.C0D6904@vl.videotron.ca>... > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:G > > you didn't even know how the boundaries of Israel have changed overeH > > the years. You thought Israel started the Yom Kippur war (1973). You > > believe Arafat.  > P > I think that this is the wrong way to view the problem. Does Palestine deserveJ > its own land and "country" status ? Does Israel deserve its own land and > "country status ?a  ? See my reference in my recent post about the true nature of thee Palestinian people..  D I was pointing out that he was bashing the Jews wihtout even knowing= some basic facts of the situation. Seems pretty unfair to me.B   > M > I think that one really needs to forget about the past and look towards thesN > future. As long as you focus on the past, you will continue to distrust bothM > parties, and continue to retaliate for what the other is doing onto you. As K > long as you insist that the other party must stop before you stop, if you-N > insist that the other party must stop before you start talking, then nothing > will ever get done.o  B Israel has made generous offers and the reward was *new* violence.A Before Intifada II, there was a very large number of Israelis whog= favored land for peace. Not any more! Can you blame them? TheaD Palestinians have proved that they are not interested in peace. They7 want to destroy Israel (see my recent references post).t   > N > Once you agree on the basi premises that both have the right to exist,  thenN > they must work towards allowing each other to exist. If one party is affraidM > the other will still attack it, then it can ask the UN to provide a neutraleN > force that will monitor the 2 parties to ensure no attacks occur. This meansH > that neither party need to invade the others and claim "self defense".  F I really doubt that such a UN force would indeed be neutral. There areA many Arab countries, hence votes at the UN. But there is only one D Israel. If a truly neutral force could be enlisted, I am all for it.   Alan E. Feldman-   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2003 14:59:29 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants6 Message-ID: <b4q6cg$22393v$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  < In article <b096a4ee.0303121918.fa66e7e@posting.google.com>,1 	spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:yh > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<b4m808$21j2d8$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>...@ >> In article <b096a4ee.0303111752.1f55a944@posting.google.com>,4 >> 	spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: >> > .F >> > You neglect the destruction of Jewish temples in Jerusalem by theK >> > Arabs. You probably neglect a lot more. We really need a more complete. >> > picture here. >> j >> We certainly do.e >> -K >> The last "Jewish Temple" in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans aroundt	 >> 70 AD.a >> o >> billv > 6 > I was referring to regular synagogues in Jerusalem.   F Oh, I was pretty sure that was what you meant.  But sunagogues are not# in any sense of the word "temples".n  H >                                                      Not "the" Temple.    < In Judaism, there is was and always will be only one Temple.  D The biggest cause of conflict is mis-understanding.  If the educatedE people of the world know so little about the Jews they associate withsB on a daily basis how can anyone expect ignorant, uneducated peopleB in backwards countries like Palestine to be any better?  (The sameD was true of Christians in the first few centuries.  John 6:53-57 wasB long thought by non-Christians to be an advocation of canabalism.)  H > I read an ad years ago explaining how when Arabs ruled Jerusalem, theyE > didn't allow Jewish or Christian worship. When Israel rules it, all%F > religions are respected. My memory of it is a little fuzzy, but this! > was pretty much the jist of it.i  D See, there it is again.   Don't you perhaps mean Moslems rather thanD Arabs?  There are Christian (and very likely Jewish) Arabs.  This isD the same thinking that caused people with slanted eyes to be roundedB up during WWII and caused attacks on people named Abdul after 9-116 even though they were natural born American citizens.   E The worst weapon in the world isn't nuclear, it is ignorance.  It cana1 be easily turned on the most innocent of victims.e   bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   R   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Mar 2003 15:02:11 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants6 Message-ID: <b4q6hi$22393v$2@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>  3 In article <OjV5KxSljjUj@eisner.encompasserve.org>,c> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > J >    No, most people here in fact do not feel that way.  Many do feel thatG >    going to war without the French is like going hunting without youraF >    accordion, but we're still busy arguing over whether to go to war> >    and many suspect the French should no be ignored in this.  A And many of us think the French should be ignored.  Period.   :-)w   bill   -- iJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   <   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:02:38 -0400a0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E709D8C.6792EBE1@vl.videotron.ca>c   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:F > I was pointing out that he was bashing the Jews wihtout even knowing? > some basic facts of the situation. Seems pretty unfair to me.   F I don't know who the "he" is. But please, please, understand that whenE discussing Palestine vs Israel, most westerners think of nations, notsS religions. It is wrong to state that anyone who criticises Israel is blasting jews.   K It is Israel that insists on associating country with religion, the rest oftL the world sees israel as a country only. I don't care whether there are jews or mormons in Israel.e  M The conflict in Northern-Ireland wasn't between catholics and protestants, itaL was between those loyal to england and those loyal to "northern ireland". ItN was between a certain class of richer people and one of poorer people who wereK shut out of certain portions of the economy. In a way, very similar to what M had happened in Qubec when the "english" destroyed all french businesses andbJ installed their own english businesses and shut out french people from the< business, relegating them to farming, doctors, religion etc.  N The "true" jews are just as arab as the palestinians.  Granted, Israel, with aM large influx of people from many continents is now a mixture of races, but inuN the end, they all live in the middle east, share weather, water, food etc withM arabs.  It isn't like comparing tribal people from new guinee with people who ? live in manhattan. Jews and Palestinians aren't THAT different.r    D > Israel has made generous offers and the reward was *new* violence.  G Israel cannot expect instant gratification and instant death to all thepY residual anger. There must really be a long term outlook with a realistic implementation:h ""L 	OK, we'll start working towards peace, but we realise that there is still aM lot of people angry against each other and there will be lots of distrust forpJ a few generations to come, but we cannot let individual events prevent the long term goal of peace. ""  L The problem with Israel is that the minute some bomb explodes, it ceases itsJ long term peace goal and reverts to its "lets retaliate with 10 times more2 force", which only fuels the anger towards israel.  N The "easy" way out is really a 2-3 generation "berlin wall" to isolate the twoK people. Once schools/media/parents have stopped planting the seeds of angergL into kids, they will grow up and eventually, the wall will serve no purpose.  K The other way is for the more mature country to simply state that they willbB take some bombs/destruction but will not retaliate outside its ownN territories.  Instead of killing the suicide bomber and granting him martyrdomN in heaven with 5000 virgin women, they should make sure he doesn't die and putM him naked in a glass prison in the middle of the city for everyone to see andmI make fun of. Those would be terrorists would then see that they would nots@ achieve their goals and be ridiculed instead of being glorified.  L The current policies of retaliation have not worked. They just add more fuelJ to the fire. And the USA should have learned this lesson, but it seems notM because they are about ready to add a hell of a lot of fire to the arab angern7 against the USA with their insistance on invading Iraq.e  ? > favored land for peace. Not any more! Can you blame them? TherB > Palestinians have proved that they are not interested in peace.   J And Israel has proven that it is not interested in peace. Both are just asM guilty. If Israel widthdrew from Palestinian land and stopped retaliating, itiJ woudln't take that long for the suicide bombers to stop. But it would takeC longer than Israel currently has patience for, hence the continuingt tit-for-tat attacks.  H > I really doubt that such a UN force would indeed be neutral. There areC > many Arab countries, hence votes at the UN. But there is only onehF > Israel. If a truly neutral force could be enlisted, I am all for it.  N As long as the UN force has a clear and well circumscribed mandate, it doesn'tL matter who mans the UN forces. If some of the UN forces do not implement theN UN mandate properly, the UN will see to it. The UN has the processes to handleI grievances. Right now, the palestinian-israel tit-for-tat doesn't have aysM method to handle grievances because israel refuses to talk to palestine untileL the problem is resolved. But to resolve the problem, you need to talk first.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:34:05 +0100r' From: BAVAY Marc - GRE <mbavay@slb.com>n: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants' Message-ID: <3E70B2FD.B1F8DCFC@slb.com>l   Bill Gunshannon a crit :.  5 > In article <OjV5KxSljjUj@eisner.encompasserve.org>,tG >         koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:e > > L > >    No, most people here in fact do not feel that way.  Many do feel thatI > >    going to war without the French is like going hunting without youraH > >    accordion, but we're still busy arguing over whether to go to war@ > >    and many suspect the French should no be ignored in this. > C > And many of us think the French should be ignored.  Period.   :-)   @ goes well with your definition of de-mo-cra-cy. congratulations.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:38:45 +0000 (UTC)r+ From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)t: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <b4qc6l$991$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>i  a In article <b4q6cg$22393v$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: = >In article <b096a4ee.0303121918.fa66e7e@posting.google.com>,t2 >	spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:i >> bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<b4m808$21j2d8$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>... A >>> In article <b096a4ee.0303111752.1f55a944@posting.google.com>,-5 >>> 	spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:n >>> > .s >o= >In Judaism, there is was and always will be only one Temple.e > E >The biggest cause of conflict is mis-understanding.  If the educatedMF >people of the world know so little about the Jews they associate withC >on a daily basis how can anyone expect ignorant, uneducated people-C >in backwards countries like Palestine to be any better?  (The sameUE >was true of Christians in the first few centuries.  John 6:53-57 was0C >long thought by non-Christians to be an advocation of canabalism.)  >pI >> I read an ad years ago explaining how when Arabs ruled Jerusalem, theyoF >> didn't allow Jewish or Christian worship. When Israel rules it, allG >> religions are respected. My memory of it is a little fuzzy, but thiss" >> was pretty much the jist of it. > E >See, there it is again.   Don't you perhaps mean Moslems rather thaneE >Arabs?  There are Christian (and very likely Jewish) Arabs.  This isuE >the same thinking that caused people with slanted eyes to be rounded C >up during WWII and caused attacks on people named Abdul after 9-11y7 >even though they were natural born American citizens. e >mF >The worst weapon in the world isn't nuclear, it is ignorance.  It can2 >be easily turned on the most innocent of victims. >k  H Also it would help to know exactly what time period you are considering.K The Moslem Arabs ruled Jerusalum for quite some time and from accounts I'venN heard certainly allowed Jewish and Christian worship. There may have been someM periods of history when this didn't happen but in general I believe they kept M to the precepts of Mohammed who encouraged them to respect the "people of the L book". In general I'd think the record over the last 1000 years with respectF to the treatment of the Jews would probably show more persecution from Christians that Moslems.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:38:52 -0800h$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>: Subject: RE: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants0 Message-ID: <01C2E93C.0067AFE0@sulfer.icius.com>  . From: BAVAY Marc - GRE [mailto:mbavay@slb.com] >- >Bill Gunshannon a =E9crit : >o6 >> In article <OjV5KxSljjUj@eisner.encompasserve.org>,H >>         koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> >J >> >    No, most people here in fact do not feel that way.  Many do feel = thatG >> >    going to war without the French is like going hunting without =e yourG >> >    accordion, but we're still busy arguing over whether to go to =- war-A >> >    and many suspect the French should no be ignored in this.m >>D >> And many of us think the French should be ignored.  Period.   :-) > A >goes well with your definition of de-mo-cra-cy. congratulations.e  . Don't miss the smiley on the end of that line.   Shane    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:01:45 GMT6# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsH Message-ID: <dI3ca.113469$em1.3514@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  8 "David Webb" <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message% news:b4qc6l$991$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...d8 > In article <b4q6cg$22393v$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>,* bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:? > >In article <b096a4ee.0303121918.fa66e7e@posting.google.com>,d4 > > spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:8 > >> bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message2 news:<b4m808$21j2d8$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>...C > >>> In article <b096a4ee.0303111752.1f55a944@posting.google.com>,s6 > >>> spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:	 > >>> > .n > >s? > >In Judaism, there is was and always will be only one Temple.u > >f> > >The biggest cause of conflict is mis-understanding.  If the educatedC > >people of the world know so little about the Jews they associateg withE > >on a daily basis how can anyone expect ignorant, uneducated peoplerE > >in backwards countries like Palestine to be any better?  (The same C > >was true of Christians in the first few centuries.  John 6:53-57a wasuE > >long thought by non-Christians to be an advocation of canabalism.)d > > F > >> I read an ad years ago explaining how when Arabs ruled Jerusalem, theyD > >> didn't allow Jewish or Christian worship. When Israel rules it, all D > >> religions are respected. My memory of it is a little fuzzy, but this$ > >> was pretty much the jist of it. > >aB > >See, there it is again.   Don't you perhaps mean Moslems rather thanD > >Arabs?  There are Christian (and very likely Jewish) Arabs.  This is? > >the same thinking that caused people with slanted eyes to be- rounded-E > >up during WWII and caused attacks on people named Abdul after 9-11y8 > >even though they were natural born American citizens. > >mD > >The worst weapon in the world isn't nuclear, it is ignorance.  It can 4 > >be easily turned on the most innocent of victims. > >  >s= > Also it would help to know exactly what time period you area considering.? > The Moslem Arabs ruled Jerusalum for quite some time and fromo
 accounts I've0F > heard certainly allowed Jewish and Christian worship. There may have	 been somewE > periods of history when this didn't happen but in general I believe7	 they keptA@ > to the precepts of Mohammed who encouraged them to respect the "people of theF > book". In general I'd think the record over the last 1000 years with respectSC > to the treatment of the Jews would probably show more persecutioni from > Christians that Moslems.  F As I mentioned previously, to a large extent the current problems overD land date back to the time of WWI when the British acquired/captured? significant interests in the Middle East. British policies were>D basically that whatever they had to say to appease various interestsE would be said, so long as Britain got what it wanted (see any currentuC parallels?). Thus there were representations to the Arabs living inoD the area, the governments/Kings/Princes of the area, and the BalfourC Declaration. In the end, 1945-48, the British were not able to undod@ the Gordian Knot they created regarding which territory had beenF promised to whom and turned the problem over to the UN for resolution.  C But let's not forget that there was another agenda being pursued atgC the time, one by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. What's a Grand Mufti @ you ask? Think of a *role* similar in power and scope to that ofE Ayatollah Khomeni in Iran - a/the most senior Muslim religious leaderjE of the area/time. And like Khomeni, he held a visceral hated of Jews. D For a further bit of background, during WWII, the Mufti was an arm's+ length ally/sympathizer of the Nazi regime.e  A So now we come to the UN decision to 'partition' the land betweend= Muslims and Jews, (recall that a large number of Arabs - someoF Christians, some Muslims, chose to live/remain in the 'Jewish' areas).@ The Mufti gets miffed, as do other Muslim/Arab leaders, and theyC decide to launch a war not only to take the land from the Jews, butl* also one of extermination of all the Jews.  B Having barely survived a recent war where millions of Jews were inF fact exterminated, those Jews, and others, living in Israel fight backF to ensure their survival. From the Israeli perspective the war betweenD Muslims/Arabs and the Jews was not for control of Muslim/Arab land (@ for the Jews had been legally given the land by the UN),  nor toF ensure that 'Palestinians' were enslaved or exiled, nor to exterminateF the Muslims - it was a war of physical survival of each jewish person,B man, woman, and child. To say otherwise is to be a stooge of falseC propaganda and a revisionist. Do the 'Palestinians' tell you of the B many times they slipped into homes of Jews at night to slits their9 throats as they slept, from the mid-1940's through to thewA infiltrations into villages near the Syrian border in the past 15s years ? I think not.  E The Jewish people there did not want a war, did not want to kill, butr@ were forced into taking actions in self-defense to prevent theirE extermination. The world has continued to pillory them since 1948 fori; the fact that they were successful at defending themselves.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:13:57 GMTn# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>h Subject: Recent HPTC salesI Message-ID: <FT3ca.113630$em1.49846@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>r  0 http://news.com.com/2100-1010-992337.html?tag=lh   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:58:07 -0000y- From: "Steve Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com>e Subject: RWMBX problem?oE Message-ID: <91947A84607D9D48B8E674A5FAB54DA685444A@tahiti.tinuk.com>g   Hi,e  H Looking at one of the systems we have out there, I noticed the following 'issue';  ' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwrF 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    3    11441   0 00:00:11.04      5240 76' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rw0F 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    5    11576   0 00:00:11.05      5240 76' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rw ' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matchedp' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rw ' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matchede' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwc' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matched ' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwCF 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    3    12116   0 00:00:11.09      5240 76' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rw F 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    3    12251   0 00:00:11.11      5240 76' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwe' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matcheda' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwcF 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    5    12521   0 00:00:11.15      5240 76  D So, is this something I should look at, or is it just related to anyF quotas associated with my account relevant to the PIPE command itself?   Steve Spires Technical Consultant Torex Health [T] +44 (0) 1295 274200e [F] +44 (0) 1295 275131e
 www.torex.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:46:43 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancyS- Subject: So is HP going forwards of backwards . Message-ID: <3E70C403.4030805@nospamn.sun.com>  4 http://news.com.com/2100-1003-992369.html?tag=fd_top  D Sheds an interesting light on the return to profitability of HP's PC> business and the reduced losses in the Enterprise Server Unit.   Regards  Andrew Harrisonh   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:55:38 -0500 . From: "Leo Demers" <leo_dot_demers@HP_dot_com>* Subject: Re: SSH server EAK - X forwarding* Message-ID: <3e709e28@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  J Sorry Carl your earlier post didn't show up in my news reader for some odd reason.nL Anyway David has is figured out Port Forwarding did not make it into the EAK andhK  it's functionality targeted at the SSH that ships with TCP/IP services forn OpenVMS 5.4.  that will ship with 7.3-2.e   --
 Leo Demers  OpenVMS Security Product Manager Leo_dot_Demers_at_HP_dot_COMA "Carl Karcher" <karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu> wrote in messageo0 news:12MAR03.20373536@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu...E > In a previous article, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) wrote:a > @ > ->I've just installed the DEC TCPIP Services SSH v2 server butD > ->can't seem to get X11 forwarding working with any SSH 2 clients.A > ->Are others seeing this problem ? Is this part of the "missings functionality" > ->of the EAK ? >hF > Yep. My earlier post 3/7 on this same issue hasn't seen any replies. >cD >  <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=karcher+eak+group:comp.os.vms> >, > --I > -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madisonp4 > --             karcher.nomorespam@waisman.wisc.edu   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:41:03 +0000 (UTC)r+ From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)t* Subject: Re: SSH server EAK - X forwarding+ Message-ID: <b4q8qe$811$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>i  [ In article <3e709e28@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "Leo Demers" <leo_dot_demers@HP_dot_com> writes:tK >Sorry Carl your earlier post didn't show up in my news reader for some odda >reason.M >Anyway David has is figured out Port Forwarding did not make it into the EAKo >andL > it's functionality targeted at the SSH that ships with TCP/IP services for >OpenVMS 5.4 > that will ship with 7.3-2. >lL Thanks for the confirmation Leo. Unfortunately that one bit of functionalityM being missing means I'll have to revert back to Dave Jones' public domain sshsM 1.5 server. I can live without other forwarding but X11 forwarding is a must.f  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University     >--c >Leo Demers ! >OpenVMS Security Product Manager  >Leo_dot_Demers_at_HP_dot_COMnB >"Carl Karcher" <karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu> wrote in message1 >news:12MAR03.20373536@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu...bF >> In a previous article, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) wrote: >>A >> ->I've just installed the DEC TCPIP Services SSH v2 server but E >> ->can't seem to get X11 forwarding working with any SSH 2 clients.iB >> ->Are others seeing this problem ? Is this part of the "missing >functionality"m >> ->of the EAK ?  >>G >> Yep. My earlier post 3/7 on this same issue hasn't seen any replies.c >>E >>  <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=karcher+eak+group:comp.os.vms>i >> >> --eJ >> -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison5 >> --             karcher.nomorespam@waisman.wisc.edut >  >c   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:25:53 -0500e. From: "Leo Demers" <leo_dot_demers@HP_dot_com>* Subject: Re: SSH server EAK - X forwarding, Message-ID: <3e70b34e$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  B Ok. David I'll pass the importance of the xforwarding along to the engineering team.t - Leos --
 Leo Demers  OpenVMS Security Product Manager Leo_dot_Demers_at_HP_dot_COM8 "David Webb" <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message% news:b4q8qe$811$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...o9 > In article <3e709e28@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "Leo Demers"e# <leo_dot_demers@HP_dot_com> writes:TI > >Sorry Carl your earlier post didn't show up in my news reader for somed oddh
 > >reason.K > >Anyway David has is figured out Port Forwarding did not make it into thet EAKv > >andJ > > it's functionality targeted at the SSH that ships with TCP/IP services ford > >OpenVMS 5.4 > > that will ship with 7.3-2. > >n@ > Thanks for the confirmation Leo. Unfortunately that one bit of
 functionalityMK > being missing means I'll have to revert back to Dave Jones' public domaini ssh I > 1.5 server. I can live without other forwarding but X11 forwarding is am must.o >o > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University >T >m > >--o
 > >Leo Demersm# > >OpenVMS Security Product Managerf > >Leo_dot_Demers_at_HP_dot_COM/D > >"Carl Karcher" <karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu> wrote in message3 > >news:12MAR03.20373536@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu...2H > >> In a previous article, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) wrote: > >>C > >> ->I've just installed the DEC TCPIP Services SSH v2 server butOG > >> ->can't seem to get X11 forwarding working with any SSH 2 clients.lD > >> ->Are others seeing this problem ? Is this part of the "missing > >functionality"b > >> ->of the EAK ?  > >>I > >> Yep. My earlier post 3/7 on this same issue hasn't seen any replies.g > >>G > >>  <http://groups.google.com/groups?q=karcher+eak+group:comp.os.vms>  > >> > >> --DL > >> -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison7 > >> --             karcher.nomorespam@waisman.wisc.edu2 > >  > >    ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 13 Mar 03 12:48:45 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com  Subject: Re: unixi, Message-ID: <b4q1dj$3bb$22@bob.news.rcn.net>  ; In article <pan.2003.03.12.12.19.13.161339@nospam.invalid>,t.    "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:8 >On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 02:03:49 +0000, Alan Barclay wrote: > J >> In article <b4kv4a$rq0$5@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:D >>>It certainly is likely that I have a complete misunderstand about? >>>Open Source.  I had presumed that, since I had to buy RedHatt4 >>>off the shelf, that it was no longer Open Source. >> sC >> No, you don't have to buy it off the shelf. You can download it,EB >> or someone who has downloaded it or bought a copy can duplicate >> it and give you a copy. >>  > >> The only difference between buying it and downloading it is( >> that you get support when you buy it. >sD >And precious little of that--in theory you can download patches andI >updates, but in practice you have to pay for premium support--there is ahE >download site for people who have bought the box but not the premium-G >support, but if you try to download from it you find very quickly thatv >most of the time it is "busy".3  > ISTR that Redhat had made an announcement of going "pro" as an
 OS developer.+   > B >I played with RedHat for a bit and ditched it in favor of gentoo.  A I used some precious energy yesterday and walked into a Best Buy.g? I read the packaging of Red Hat and something called SUSE (WETHpA that stands for).  Not one mention of source.  Support was tickedf= off for the pro packages (prices were $250+- for Red Hat and h? $100- for the SUSE).  Also note that there were exactly one boxa> of each on the shelves and that was it for Unix.  Not a single@ demo was running Unix.  Not a single system on display mentioned; a Unix option.  Once again I tried to access some suggested @ web site, and it crashed.  I thought I'd taken my den mother hat2 off; I forgot to check if it was welded to my ass.  A In addition, I think I finally saw one of HT-TVs.  Not impressed.hD I was more impressed by what you guys think you need in screen size.  B I also checked out the terminals...aw damn...now I forgot the techF term.  The terminal style that I can lift with one hand, everything is@ flat, and <gasp> the screen doesn't seem to flicker.  I can alsoC see the screen at a 75 degree angle.  They seem to good to be true.tC What's wrong with them?  Also I got senior fart moment when I asked - the child if I could hook one up to my 386.  0   /BAH      ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.r   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 13 Mar 03 12:53:42 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com  Subject: Re: unixg, Message-ID: <b4q1ms$3bb$23@bob.news.rcn.net>  - In article <b4nfho$9jj$1@shell.monmouth.com>,e;    pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) wrote:EI >In article <b4nce4$pv0$18@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:E5 >>In article <VmFMk9z$RLC9@eisner.encompasserve.org>,aA >>   koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  >>>e? >>This is the third explanation that still seems to support my r@ >>impression.  It appears that Red Hat is no longer Open Source! >> >>/BAH >2G >RedHat Linux's version 8 is fully Open Source... If you buy it you get G >the sources on CD IIRC.  I know I've downloaded it in the past and had  >2 full CD's of sources...  E It would be nice if they put more specs on the box and less graphics.u   > @ >They do sell support and maintenance and I just picked up their? >RedHat Network update support for my wife's box which now does-; >Text-to-Speech of the console tty output so she can access0/ >the unix system from the pc while being blind.B  + Oh, good.  How is that working out for her?t   > ; >Now all I do is run their update service regularly and it s >uploads the patches0 >to the system for security and bugfixes for me.? Ok.  I believe all you guys :-).  I'll be testing it.  Somehow,s? I've got a feeling that our cold starts were a snap compared toh- what I'm about to go through in a few months.n   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:54:36 -0500e* From: "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> Subject: Re: unixa; Message-ID: <pan.2003.03.13.16.54.35.952717@nospam.invalid>t  3 On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:48:45 +0000, jmfbahci wrote:s  = > In article <pan.2003.03.12.12.19.13.161339@nospam.invalid>,t0 >    "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:9 >>On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 02:03:49 +0000, Alan Barclay wrote:f >>K >>> In article <b4kv4a$rq0$5@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:,E >>>>It certainly is likely that I have a complete misunderstand about @ >>>>Open Source.  I had presumed that, since I had to buy RedHat5 >>>>off the shelf, that it was no longer Open Source.o >>> D >>> No, you don't have to buy it off the shelf. You can download it,C >>> or someone who has downloaded it or bought a copy can duplicate4 >>> it and give you a copy.1 >>> ? >>> The only difference between buying it and downloading it iso) >>> that you get support when you buy it.3 >>E >>And precious little of that--in theory you can download patches andrJ >>updates, but in practice you have to pay for premium support--there is aF >>download site for people who have bought the box but not the premiumH >>support, but if you try to download from it you find very quickly that  >>most of the time it is "busy". > @ > ISTR that Redhat had made an announcement of going "pro" as an > OS developer.d >  >>C >>I played with RedHat for a bit and ditched it in favor of gentoo.d > C > I used some precious energy yesterday and walked into a Best Buy.eA > I read the packaging of Red Hat and something called SUSE (WETHaC > that stands for).  Not one mention of source.  Support was tickedh? > off for the pro packages (prices were $250+- for Red Hat and eA > $100- for the SUSE).  Also note that there were exactly one boxu@ > of each on the shelves and that was it for Unix.  Not a singleB > demo was running Unix.  Not a single system on display mentioned= > a Unix option.  Once again I tried to access some suggesteduB > web site, and it crashed.  I thought I'd taken my den mother hat4 > off; I forgot to check if it was welded to my ass.  C SUSE has been around for a while--I don't recall what it stands foreG either.  It's not clear whether they include the source CD in the basiciJ package, but source is downloadable by anonymous ftp from their site.  You< can find a rundown on most of the various distributions fromB <http://www.linux.org/dist/index.html>.  There are a lot of them. F <http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/intro.shtml> has a walkthrough onF building a working linux system from source, assuming you already have& another machine with a working system.  C > In addition, I think I finally saw one of HT-TVs.  Not impressed.lF > I was more impressed by what you guys think you need in screen size.  I Personally I'm waiting for a 40" 1024x whatever the width is to get belowd $1000.  uD > I also checked out the terminals...aw damn...now I forgot the techH > term.  The terminal style that I can lift with one hand, everything isB > flat, and <gasp> the screen doesn't seem to flicker.  I can alsoE > see the screen at a 75 degree angle.  They seem to good to be true.i > What's wrong with them?n  F You mean the thin LCD displays?  For general use they are in fact veryE nice.  The downside for graphic arts is that the color has a gradient0H depending on viewing angle--you can see this if you put up a solid-colorJ screen.  The effect is not unpleasant to look at but it makes it difficultH to match colors.  The downside for the gamers is that they have a bit ofG persistence so they can't keep up with high frame rates--the newer onesEF are much better in this regard.  One thing to watch for--get one whoseD native resolution is the resolution you normally work with--that way? logical dots correspond exactly to physical dots and there's noWH interpolation at your default resolution.  If you use one off the nativeI resolution you'll see artifacts from the interpolation that don't show upnA with a CRT where the beam modulation is analog and can illuminatetE arbitrary positions.  Another consideration is that they usually have"H flourescent tubes to provide the backlighting--those may or may not last; as long as a CRT and the replacement cost can be ludicrous.   ,   Also I got senior fart moment when I asked/ > the child if I could hook one up to my 386.  o  J As long as you have a VGA-compatible video board.  Wouldn't want to bet myI life on their being able to synch EGA, CGA, or MDA, all though they mights surprise me.   > /BAH >  >  > ) > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.s   -- e --John- Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot neta# (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net))   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:10:05 +0100y, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> Subject: Re: unixt7 Message-ID: <20030313181005.2a5657ea.steveo@eircom.net>i   On Thu, 13 Mar 03 12:48:45 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  ( JC> (prices were $250+- for Red Hat and  JC> $100- for the SUSE)   C 	Ouch! You want to experiment and try a few things I suspect, whichh( those sorts of prices rather discourage.  A 	Look at http://www.cheapbytes.com for some more realistic prices J for open source on CD. AFAICT these people don't kick back anything to theI development effort (or do much apart from burn and ship CDs very cheaply)aC so once you have settled on something you might switch to an update " subscription or similar that does.   -- iD C:>WIN                                      |     Directable MirrorsJ The computer obeys and wins.                |A Better Way To Focus The SunH You lose and Bill collects.                 |  licenses available - see:F                                             |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:02:46 +0100 (MET)e9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?; Message-ID: <01KTGXSNIJEQ9FRD0S@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>h  H > If I take a SCSI cable and connect up my VAXStation 4000/60 (HostID=6)D > and my VAXserver 3100 (HostID=7) together, power them both up, andD > only Boot one of them (i.e: leave the other one at the >>> prompt)# > this configuration will NOT work? ? > (meaning my VS4000 will NOT be able to use the VS3100 disks?)s > E > It's something I've always wanted to try, but I always thought thatGG > I might burn something out.  (Obviously, I know next to nothing aboutl > SCSI)t  H As others have pointed out, this is not what is being discussed in this F thread.  However, to answer your question, yes, this will work.  I've A done it.  No problem.  Of course, make sure there are no SCSI-ID 2
 conflicts.  F Since the identity of a system is essentially on the system disk, one E can thus test a system by booting it from the system disk of another iE system.  (Of course, various system parameters should perhaps be set wF differently if the configuration is vastly different, but, say, if my G VAX gets a memory error and doesn't boot and I want to try out another lF VAX, I can just boot it off the same system disk for a start.  On the B other hand, I prefer to have system disks outside of the machine, . precisely so it is easier to move them about.)   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:29:44 +0000 (UTC)o' From: Thomas Dzubin <dzubint@vcn.bc.ca>l$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?) Message-ID: <b4qf68$43f$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca>   : Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:J > As others have pointed out, this is not what is being discussed in this H > thread.  However, to answer your question, yes, this will work.  I've C > done it.  No problem.  Of course, make sure there are no SCSI-ID   > conflicts.  G Yes, I know I was a bit off-topic but I've been wondering about sharingeJ internal SCSI devices between a couple low-end VAX systems for a while andH when this topic came up, I figured I could throw in my slightly-offtopic query.  1 Thanks for the info, sorry for the offtopic post.   
 Thomas Dzubina' Calgary, Saskatoon, or Vancouver CANADA    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 11:36:26 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)r$ Subject: Re: VAX Shared SCSI anyone?3 Message-ID: <77kfRfgMf7eb@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  S In article <b4qf68$43f$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca>, Thomas Dzubin <dzubint@vcn.bc.ca> writes:r< > Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:K >> As others have pointed out, this is not what is being discussed in this tI >> thread.  However, to answer your question, yes, this will work.  I've wD >> done it.  No problem.  Of course, make sure there are no SCSI-ID 
 >> conflicts.  > I > Yes, I know I was a bit off-topic but I've been wondering about sharingiL > internal SCSI devices between a couple low-end VAX systems for a while andJ > when this topic came up, I figured I could throw in my slightly-offtopic > query. > 3 > Thanks for the info, sorry for the offtopic post.a  D Actually, your inquiry matches the topic exactly -- VAX shared SCSI.  C It is the folks who were talking about VAX/VMS shared SCSI who werei
 off-topic :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:22:01 -0500g! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>e) Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Numeric usernames] ' Message-ID: <3E709409.86429FE9@vcu.edu>u    unless they want fat foxes!!!!     Dean Woodward wrote: >  > Larry Kilgallen wrote:R > > In article <3E6ECC69.20705@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes: > >y? > > So people are not willing to _fully_ trust VMS security :-)d > , > Only an idiot keeps a fox in the henhouse.   -- dF "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship of the Ring"   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.142 ************************