1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 14 Mar 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 143       Contents: Any update on FC-AL support?0 Re: Anybody know why HP didn't get the business?& Anyone Porting Distributed.Net Client?6 Re: Anyone use a Compaq 20/40 dlt tape drive in a vax?. Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues. Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues. Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues. Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues) Re: Backward compatibility of executables  RE: Big Endian vs little Endian  Re: Big Endian vs little Endian  Re: Carly's feedback link = Re: Cerner delivers quality healthcare solutions with OpenVMS * Re: Commodity PCI NIC cards for Alpha VMS?H Re: Could HP manage this with former VMS customers if they really tried?H Re: Could HP manage this with former VMS customers if they really tried?/ Re: DIFFERENT BLOCKSIZE FOR BACKUP AND RESTORE? < Re: External Authentication and Windows2000 Active Directory$ Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX$ Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX$ Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX$ Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIXO Re: How many other sites had their CSLG licenses expire at midnight last night? ( Re: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code? IBM starts to work on Power-5 ! Re: IBM starts to work on Power-5 . Re: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down? RE: just got this  RE: just got this : Re: just got this (hpuseradvocacy operating system survey): Re: just got this (hpuseradvocacy operating system survey) Re: Lightweight TCP/IP stack? G Re: Logical name table space available - how many logicals can I create P Re: Logical name table space available - how many logicals can I create createcr/ MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible) 3 Re: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible) 3 RE: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible) 3 RE: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible) 3 RE: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible) B Re: Migrating from PSI X-25 to another product (hardware/software)* Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants Re: Numeric usernames  Re: Numeric usernames  Re: One version of a file ONLY.  Re: One version of a file ONLY. 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants  Re: RWMBX problem? Re: RWMBX problem? Re: RWMBX problem?P Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, InterdaP Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth  Re: VMS - duplicating database  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 15:47:44 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) % Subject: Any update on FC-AL support? - Message-ID: <Ti0$Y8C4fwJN@malvm7.mala.bc.ca.>   7  The OpenVMS roadmap shows FC-AL support in Q1 CY 2003.   7  With just a couple of weeks left in Q1 I was wondering 7 if anyone's heard anything official about this support, - or any updates on when it might be announced.     Thanks in advance.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:41:08 GMT 9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> 9 Subject: Re: Anybody know why HP didn't get the business? ? Message-ID: <aff6aad24b.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>   E In message <CoK7a.11462$em1.576@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> .           "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3E5EDF86.74022B3F@fsi.net...  > > John Smith wrote:  > > > : > > > ARCHIPELAGO PICKS SUN SERVERS FOR OTC STOCK TRADING,( > > > REPLACING MICROSOFT/INTEL MACHINES > > > C > > > In a move to cut costs, boost speed, and increase its trading 	 > volume,  > > > Archipelago < > > > is shifting its OTC stock-trading business over to Sun > Microsystems > > > Unix-based' > > > servers by the end of next month.  > > G > > Did HP even try for it (we all know how wonderful OpenVMS marketing  > > is...)?  >  > - > They could have pitched Tru64 or PH-UX too. (                                    ^^^^^ How apposite   >  >    --  
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:00:58 -0800 @ From: Jason Brady <jr_brady at nospam .dot. earthlink .dot. net>/ Subject: Anyone Porting Distributed.Net Client? 8 Message-ID: <0um17vo0sc3qkpkrk6kn7d04etm2mkh9c0@4ax.com>   Hi All,   D Is anyone working on a port of the Distributed.Net client to OpenVMSD Alpha?  In response to my inquiry, one of the project team explainedE that they pulled the previously-available VMS clients because they do C not support RC5-72.  They certainly would like to have a VMS client C available and asked if I'd be interested in working on a port.  I'd F be very interested in contributing to a porting effort; however, beingD unfamiliar with C++ and UNIX it seems too daunting.  Sure sparked myE interest since it's a terrific challenge and educational opportunity.    Thanks,  Jason    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:48:26 GMT 9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> ? Subject: Re: Anyone use a Compaq 20/40 dlt tape drive in a vax? ? Message-ID: <c4a1abd24b.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>   & In message <3E675D46.2CB6B9D7@vcu.edu>,           Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> wrote:  J > Interesting... I have an Exabyte 8200 that came out of a device that wasC > hung off a hsc controller.  when i put it on my vs3100m78, with a D > storageworks box with 6 drives in it, it crashes vms..  not reallyI > having time to fiddle, i noted it and moved on.. (im using it currently A > as a genderbender for two male scsi cables at the moment. ;-) )   I Two thoughts here. The Storageworks shelves act as a LONG SCSI cable - if H you add another cable you are likely to exceed the SCSi cable limits for8 single-ended. This is usually quoted as 2.5 or 2 metres.  K If this VAX has only one SCSI bus, then your system disk and tape drive are J sharing a bus. Tape drives, some at least, can assert SCSI bus resets, and these can crash VMS.  J (This may only be true in a cluster - i.e. it stalls the system for longer2 than PASANITY, then causes a cluexit on recovery.)   Alan   >  > Jim  >  > Brian Tillman wrote: > >  > > Along the same lines...  > > K > > I have a DLT4000 currently attached to an HSD30.  On the VAX, the drive H > > shows up as a TZ01.  It seems to work, although I realize it's not aK > > supported configuration, at least the firmware docs for the HSD seem to  > > indicate that. > > O > > I have another drive, a DLT2000 (effectively a TZ87), that I'd like to use. I > > I daisy-chained it from the DLT4000 and it, too, showed up as a TZ01. O > > However, neither would work reliably.  I'd get fatal controller errors and, L > > once the DLT2000 hung and trying to reset the HSD caused a system crash.L > > I'm pretty sure the DLT2000 is a working device, since it was on another" > > platform and working correctly > > L > > I have attached to the SCSI bus on the VAX (KZQSA), a StorageWorks shelfO > > containing two 8mm drives.  Could I daisy-chain the DLT2000 from the shelf? N > > I'm thinking that if the device is directly attached to the VAX instead ofK > > via the HSD, it might work more reliably.  I'm running OpenVMS VAX V7.2  > > --M > > Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot com 9 > > Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM. D > > 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "." > > Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991 < > >        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company >    --  
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:52:38 -0600  From: don.rogstad@dalsemi.com 7 Subject: Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues 1 Message-ID: <03031313523864@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>    Ed:   K    Here is a code snippet of what we have used here to "authenticate" users N for access.   Compile this code, link it with /NOTRACEBACK and install it withN SYSPRV to allow access to everyone in the SYSUAF.  Then in your script you can have something like:  ,     $ Check_Access := $<dir>CHECK_ACCESS.EXE:     $ Check_access <username> <password> <rights to check>  L and it will return a SS$_ code (success if everything checks out correctly) J or an appropriate error message.  NOTE:  This code is NOT complete in thatH it does NOT check for account expiration, DISUSER flags, etc. but these E can AND SHOULD be added (you can see where I get the info, just don't 
 check it yet.   @    I have not yet begun to look at the new PERSONA services yet.  D ----------------------- Begin C code ------------------------------- #include <string>  #include <stdio> #include <ctype>   #include <descrip> #include <uaidef>  #include <ssdef>   #include <starlet>   #include <lib$routines>   8 unsigned long check_password(struct dsc$descriptor_s *, * 		             struct dsc$descriptor_s *);> unsigned long check_rights(struct dsc$descriptor_s *, char *);! void          make_upper(char *);   N /****************************************************************************/N /****                       Common      structures                       ****/N /****************************************************************************/       struct itemlist {  	unsigned short	buff_len;  	unsigned short	item_code; 	void		*buff_addr; 	unsigned short	*ret_len;  	} ;  N /****************************************************************************/N /****                          Main routine                              ****/N /****************************************************************************/  ! int main(int argc, char * argv[])  {      unsigned short	retlen;     unsigned short	salt;     unsigned long	vms_status;      unsigned long	prmptflag=1;     unsigned long	ctx;     unsigned long	exptime[2];      unsigned long	password[2];     unsigned long	hashpwd[2];      unsigned long	acctflags;     char 		inpwd[80];      char 		username[80];     char		encrypt;  N /****************************************************************************/N /****                    get file name to check for locks                ****/N /****************************************************************************/  &     $DESCRIPTOR(d_username, username);#     $DESCRIPTOR(d_inpwd,    inpwd);        if (argc == 1) {3        $DESCRIPTOR(d_inprompt, "Enter username: "); ?        vms_status = lib$get_foreign (&d_username, &d_inprompt,  /    				  &d_username.dsc$w_length, &prmptflag); 0        if (!(vms_status & 1)) return vms_status;<        if (d_username.dsc$w_length  == 0) return vms_status;  2        $DESCRIPTOR(d_prompt1, "Enter password: ");;        vms_status = lib$get_foreign (&d_inpwd, &d_prompt1,  ;                                      &d_inpwd.dsc$w_length,   			             &prmptflag); 0        if (!(vms_status & 1)) return vms_status;    }      if (argc == 2) { 1        d_username.dsc$w_length = strlen(argv[1]); F        if (d_username.dsc$w_length > 80) d_username.dsc$w_length = 80;;        strncpy(username, argv[1], d_username.dsc$w_length);         make_upper(username);  2        $DESCRIPTOR(d_prompt1, "Enter password: ");;        vms_status = lib$get_foreign (&d_inpwd, &d_prompt1,  ;                                      &d_inpwd.dsc$w_length,   			             &prmptflag); 0        if (!(vms_status & 1)) return vms_status;    }      if (argc >= 3) { 1        d_username.dsc$w_length = strlen(argv[1]); F        if (d_username.dsc$w_length > 80) d_username.dsc$w_length = 80;;        strncpy(username, argv[1], d_username.dsc$w_length); " //       printf("%s\n", username);        make_upper(username);  .        d_inpwd.dsc$w_length = strlen(argv[2]);@        if (d_inpwd.dsc$w_length > 80) d_inpwd.dsc$w_length = 80;5        strncpy(inpwd, argv[2], d_inpwd.dsc$w_length);         make_upper(inpwd);     }  / //    vms_status = lib$put_output(&d_username); , //    vms_status = lib$put_output(&d_inpwd);  8     vms_status = check_password (&d_username, &d_inpwd);-     if (!(vms_status & 1)) return vms_status;       if (argc == 4) {         make_upper(argv[3]); 8        vms_status = check_rights (&d_username, argv[3]);0        if (!(vms_status & 1)) return vms_status;    }     return vms_status; }   @ unsigned long check_password(struct dsc$descriptor_s *username, * 			     struct dsc$descriptor_s *password) {      unsigned short	salt;     unsigned long	vms_status;      unsigned long	ctx;     unsigned long	exptime[2];      unsigned long	uafpwd[2];     unsigned long	hashpwd[2];      unsigned long	acctflags;     char		encrypt;     struct itemlist	itmlst[6];       itmlst[0].buff_len  = 1;'     itmlst[0].item_code = UAI$_ENCRYPT; #     itmlst[0].buff_addr = &encrypt;      itmlst[0].ret_len   = 0;       itmlst[1].buff_len  = 8;*     itmlst[1].item_code = UAI$_EXPIRATION;&     itmlst[1].buff_addr = &exptime[0];     itmlst[1].ret_len   = 0;          itmlst[2].buff_len  = 4;%     itmlst[2].item_code = UAI$_FLAGS; %     itmlst[2].buff_addr = &acctflags;      itmlst[2].ret_len   = 0;          itmlst[3].buff_len  = 8;#     itmlst[3].item_code = UAI$_PWD; %     itmlst[3].buff_addr = &uafpwd[0];      itmlst[3].ret_len   = 0;          itmlst[4].buff_len  = 2;$     itmlst[4].item_code = UAI$_SALT;      itmlst[4].buff_addr = &salt;     itmlst[4].ret_len   = 0;          itmlst[5].buff_len  = 0;     itmlst[5].item_code = 0;     itmlst[5].buff_addr = 0;     itmlst[5].ret_len   = 0;  
     ctx = -1; B     vms_status = sys$getuai (0, &ctx, username, &itmlst, 0, 0, 0);-     if (!(vms_status & 1)) return vms_status;      G     vms_status = sys$hash_password (password, encrypt, salt, username,   				    &hashpwd[0]); -     if (!(vms_status & 1)) return vms_status;   A     if ((hashpwd[0] != uafpwd[0]) || (hashpwd[1] != uafpwd[1])) { # //	printf ("Password incorrect\n");  	vms_status = 13861116;      }        return vms_status; } ? unsigned long check_rights (struct dsc$descriptor_s *username,   			    char *rights) {      unsigned short	retlen;     unsigned short	maxlen;     unsigned short	cnt;      unsigned short	found;      unsigned long	vms_status;      unsigned long	ctx;     unsigned long	uic[2];      unsigned long	rightsid;      unsigned long	attrib;      char		*rightstr;     char		rightsname[80];      struct itemlist	itmlst[2];  '     $DESCRIPTOR(d_right,   rightsname);        uic[0] = 0;      uic[1] = 0;        itmlst[0].buff_len  = 4;#     itmlst[0].item_code = UAI$_UIC; "     itmlst[0].buff_addr = &uic[0];     itmlst[0].ret_len   = 0;       itmlst[1].buff_len  = 0;     itmlst[1].item_code = 0;     itmlst[1].buff_addr = 0;     itmlst[1].ret_len   = 0;     0 //    printf("looking for %s rights\n", rights);
     ctx = -1; B     vms_status = sys$getuai (0, &ctx, username, &itmlst, 0, 0, 0);-     if (!(vms_status & 1)) return vms_status; $ //    printf("UIC is %8X\n",uic[0]);       maxlen = strlen(rights);     ctx = 0;     found = 0;4     while ((vms_status == SS$_NORMAL) && (!found)) {@ 	vms_status = sys$find_held (&uic[0], &rightsid, &attrib, &ctx);  	if (vms_status == SS$_NORMAL) { 	    d_right.dsc$w_length = 80; @ 	    vms_status = sys$idtoasc (rightsid, &d_right.dsc$w_length,  				      &d_right, 0, 0, 0); $ 	    if (vms_status == SS$_NORMAL) {* //		vms_status = lib$put_output(&d_right);) 		if ((d_right.dsc$w_length == maxlen) && / 		    (!strncmp(rightsname, rights, maxlen))) { ' //		    printf("found %s", rightsname);  		    found=1; 		}  	   }  	}     } > //    if (vms_status == SS$_NOSUCHID) vms_status = SS$_NORMAL;       return vms_status; }    void make_upper(char *instr) {      unsigned long i;  =     for (i=strlen(instr);i>0;i--) *instr = toupper(*instr++);  } F --------------------- End C Code -------------------------------------   Don Rogstad  Dallas Semiconductor   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:23:51 +0000 (UTC) , From: lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)7 Subject: Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues . Message-ID: <b4qpcn$mk8$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   ewilts@ewilts.org (Ed Wilts) writes in article <995e39b6.0303121444.23a8eed2@posting.google.com> dated 12 Mar 2003 14:44:08 -0800:F >What I need to do is authenticate a user against a a VMS account, andB >then do *all* operations within Apache as that user.  I'd like to  L I set up something like this under OSU, and it ported to Apache pretty well.  K The scripts are in 2 layers -- the outer one runs under APACHE$WWW and gets H the username and password via the "Basic" scheme (which is not in itselfJ secure, but I only do it over https, which is).  Then it opens up a DecnetG "task" object using that username and password to do the actual work.     A Most browsers remember the login info until you quit the browser.   J You have to trust your outer-layer script developers if you're going to doG this, because it would be pretty easy to log passwords to a file there.   D If you're interested in seeing a code example, drop me a line (after un-munging address below).  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:35:28 +0000 (UTC) , From: lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)7 Subject: Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues . Message-ID: <b4qq2g$mk8$2@newslocal.mitre.org>   bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes in article <d7791aa1.0303130537.1b0f2aee@posting.google.com> dated 13 Mar 2003 05:37:23 -0800:e >> In article <995e39b6.0303121444.23a8eed2@posting.google.com>, ewilts@ewilts.org (Ed Wilts) writes: I >> >What I need to do is authenticate a user against a a VMS account, and   , >and would be even easier using purveyor ...  I Buffalo chips!  The first thing Purveyor makes you do is set up an entire J new database of usernames and passwords.  Ed wants to use his existing VMS accounts, as in SYSUAF.   + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 15:49:54 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 7 Subject: Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues 3 Message-ID: <1EBwX2uR88LZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Q In article <03031313523864@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>, don.rogstad@dalsemi.com writes:  > Ed:  > M >    Here is a code snippet of what we have used here to "authenticate" users P > for access.   Compile this code, link it with /NOTRACEBACK and install it withP > SYSPRV to allow access to everyone in the SYSUAF.  Then in your script you can > have something like: > . >     $ Check_Access := $<dir>CHECK_ACCESS.EXE< >     $ Check_access <username> <password> <rights to check> > N > and it will return a SS$_ code (success if everything checks out correctly) L > or an appropriate error message.  NOTE:  This code is NOT complete in thatJ > it does NOT check for account expiration, DISUSER flags, etc. but these G > can AND SHOULD be added (you can see where I get the info, just don't  > check it yet.  > B >    I have not yet begun to look at the new PERSONA services yet. > F > ----------------------- Begin C code -------------------------------  9 	Couple of comments.  First, if you have a user community @ 	that can grab a $ prompt, code like this could be an invitation= 	to hack at accounts.  (You could slow down the guessing with  	a sleep(1) ).  ; 	Also, it appears this is being used with a C++ compiler as & 	there are various C++ comments below:   	}  0  //    vms_status = lib$put_output(&d_username);-  //    vms_status = lib$put_output(&d_inpwd);    9      vms_status = check_password (&d_username, &d_inpwd); .      if (!(vms_status & 1)) return vms_status;   				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 13:47:22 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 2 Subject: Re: Backward compatibility of executables3 Message-ID: <RtQjDYlCYt+s@eisner.encompasserve.org>   v In article <YBRba.38050$z54.1999925@twister.austin.rr.com>, "Sloan Essman" <sessman@spamnomore.houston.rr.com> writes:G > We have recently purchased a new system for our developers to replace E > our old system running VMS 6.2. The new system is running VMS 7.3-1 E > and the minimum version requirement was somewhere in the 7.2 range. E > We sill have a lot of customers running 6.2. Does anyone know where D > I could look up the compatibility of our 7.3 generated executablesC > with the older systems running 6.2 to find a minumum version that  > they will have to run?  @    If you build the executable on 7.3 with no special effort, it;    will run on 7.3 or later.  VMS does not provide downward     compatability.   C    You can get the sahreable images and libraries from a 6.2 system 7    and do a build on 7.3 that will run on 6.2 or later.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:58:37 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ( Subject: RE: Big Endian vs little Endian9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEMIGMAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message----- 9 >From: Sue Skonetski [mailto:susan_skonetski@hotmail.com] ( >Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 10:41 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com% >Subject: Big Endian vs little Endian  >  > D >The following is in response to questions Jeff Cameron posted.  TheG >answers are from Clair Grant the engineering lead on the port project.  >And posted with his ok. >  >Home this helps,  >  >Sue > G >______________________________________________________________________ G >I have heard that the Itanium will support either Little Endian or Big  >Endian memory addressing. >  >1. Is this true?  >  >yes >  >2. If so, how is this done?, >3. How is it changed from one or the other? > E >Endianness is per process selectable and controls the order in which F >the process reads/writes bytes. There is a bit in the user mask fieldD >of the processor status register that the user program can control.0 >The default for a VMS process is little endian. >  > C >4. Are the addressing bounderies on 64 bit quad-words, or smaller?   5 I suspect that this was about alignment requirements.    > E >We are not sure how to interpret your question. Take a look at Intel D >IA-64 Architecture Software Developer's Manual Volume 1 Section 3.2 >and see if that helps.  > D >5. In OpenVMS, how big will a page of memory be, same as the Alpha? > D >IA64 supports many pages sizes. The initial version of VMS will use@ >8kb pages, same as Alpha. We plan to support other sizes in the >future. >  >Hope this helps,  >  >Clair >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 2/13/2003  >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 2/13/2003   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 01:03:44 GMT + From: Jeff Cameron <JCam90502@jcameron.com> ( Subject: Re: Big Endian vs little Endian2 Message-ID: <BA966A6F.5FFC%JCam90502@jcameron.com>  L On 3/13/03 10:58 AM, in article CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEMIGMAA.tom@kednos.com,$ "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:  E >> 4. Are the addressing bounderies on 64 bit quad-words, or smaller?  > 7 > I suspect that this was about alignment requirements. I Yes that is exactly the reason for my question. For an explicit question, ( can a 64 bit quad-word be aligned on a :   1. 32 Bit Boundary?  2. 16 Bit Boundary?  3. 8 Bit Boundary?   Jeff Cameron   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 01:16:55 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> " Subject: Re: Carly's feedback linkG Message-ID: <b4aca.22216$a41.4021@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   @ "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in5 message news:Lgb6LNLwGM3A@eisner.encompasserve.org... F > In article <3E6F1D87.1050800@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes:  > > > > > Well SAP didn't run on OpenVMS so that removes one option. > E >    SAP did run on VMS.  I wouldn't be suprised to find a site still  >    using it. >    Ok, I'm curious. Which century?    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 02:39:27 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> F Subject: Re: Cerner delivers quality healthcare solutions with OpenVMSH Message-ID: <zhbca.22599$a41.19739@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0303121109.6e57dd32@posting.google.com... * > A new success story on the VMS web site: > @ > "Did you know that 80 percent of healthcare institutions using CernerE > Corporation's Millennium applications depend on AlphaServer systems @ > running OpenVMS?  A just-published success story looks at thisD > innovative company and how it has transformed healthcare delivery.; > Cerner has streamlined the way healthcare providers share  information @ > by connecting the right people with the right resources, while@ > virtually eliminating paperwork.  Since the 1980s, when Cerner created B > a groundbreaking lab system on the OpenVMS operating system, the9 > company has relied on HP technology to build its unique @ > "patient-centric" information architecture.  The success storyA > discusses how Cerner is now hosting and managing IT systems for F > hospitals and medical centers across the United States, more than 95E > percent of whom depend on OpenVMS on AlphaServer systems to achieve > > 99.8 percent uptime.  According to Rod Coombs, Cerner's vice	 president D > of Technology Product Management, "when an application absolutely,B > positively has to stay up, OpenVMS is the only platform to use." FromE > clustering to security, from next-generation AlphaServer systems to > > StorageWorks SANs, Cerner relies on HP technology to deliverD > high-quality, cost-effective solutions to the healthcare industry. To > read the success story, go to B > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/cerner/index.html or? > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/cerner/cerner.pdf     D Nice. Now tighten it up and make it a double-page spread in the Wall Street Journal.    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:47:14 -0600 (CST)  From: sms@antinode.org3 Subject: Re: Commodity PCI NIC cards for Alpha VMS? ) Message-ID: <03031312471415@antinode.org>   =    Back on 26-FEB-2003, I reported that a Compaq "NETELLIGENT F 10/100 TX PCI Intel UTP Controller" card, which uses an Intel SB82558BD chip, worked as EIA0 (et c.) in my AlpSta 200 4/233 under VMS V7.2-1! (and as "ee0" under Tru64 V5.1A).   E    It's still happy with Tru64 V5.1B, but, sadly, when I moved one of E these cards from my test box into my main VMS system, no EIA0.  After E some considerable fooling around, it appears that VMS721_UPDATE-V0300 7 may be what wrecks it.  (That patch admits to replacing D SYS$EIDRIVER.EXE, but there seems to be more to it than just that.)   E    Now that we've solved the Iraq question, I'd be grateful if anyone D has any wisdom to offer on why, or whether some later VMS version or- patch might restore my short-lived happiness.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode.org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:27:31 GMT % From: Joe user <joe.user@company.com> Q Subject: Re: Could HP manage this with former VMS customers if they really tried? 4 Message-ID: <3E70E9B3.AA89A51A@digital-spamless.com>  I John, c'mon.  Let's look at apples and apples here.  IBM is attempting to B win back CONSULTING customers, not customers for a particular O/S.H Customers who purchased SERVICES, not a specific O/S or hardware system.  J If your focus was on the consulting and the consulting business and tryingH to recapture lost customers in that arena, then your point is valid.  IfJ you're looking at lost customers who had an OpenVMS and/or Alpha interest,( I don't feel the comparison is relevant.   bob    John Smith wrote:   4 > "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageH > news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D9E0C@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcor
 > p.net... > >John, > H > >To put a more down to earth picture on this - I wonder what the folks > in2 > >former PWC and Rational feel about all of this? > 7 > >http://news.com.com/2100-1001-990471.html?tag=fd_top ) > >"IBM trims jobs in software, services"  >  > Kerry, > % > Let's not try changing the subject.  > D > The original point and question was that IBM has taken significantG > steps to win back former customers of IBM, PWC, and IBM/PWC combined, D > and would HP make similar efforts to try and bring back former VMS > customers into the fold. > A > Many of the former VMS customers are by now on their 2nd or 3rd C > migrations, from VMS to Slowlaris to Windows to Linux, in varying F > combinations and permutations. Perhaps it's time to dust off the oldG > DEC customer lists and try presenting a value proposition argument to   > those that have left the fold. > E > Too bad Mr. Roger's isn't with us anymore....he'd have made a great G > VMS spokesman... "Can you say reliable? Sure, I knew that you could."    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:07:24 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>Q Subject: Re: Could HP manage this with former VMS customers if they really tried? , Message-ID: <3E70F30C.9050307@tsoft-inc.com>  E >>Too bad Mr. Roger's isn't with us anymore....he'd have made a great G >>VMS spokesman... "Can you say reliable? Sure, I knew that you could."     N Having done a bit of work for Mr Rogers in the past, on a MVII running VMS, I / think that the above might be appropriate.  :-)   J Ok, I'll fess up.  It was used for word processing, and has probably been  replaced by PCs.   Dave   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:34:00 GMT 9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> 8 Subject: Re: DIFFERENT BLOCKSIZE FOR BACKUP AND RESTORE?? Message-ID: <d1cdafd24b.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>   5 In message <3e69a83b$0$49101$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> 4           Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> wrote:  G > Two years ago I wrote a DCL script to make copies of BACKUP tapes to  H > other tapes, using Save Set Manager. The hardware was a TL896 library J > with brand new TZ89 drives and brand new DLT IV catridges. Most Backups K > were volumesets (created by ABS) of two or three tapes. I have seen more  H > than once that Save Set Manager reported recoverable errors. In other G > words, errors were detected on the source tape, and corrected on the  K > target. Apparently, the hardware's capability to catch and correct these  H > errors was not sufficient. If we had used /NOCRC and /GROUP=0 for the : > backups, we would not have known that there were errors. > E > This is why I never will trust a backup without /CRC and /GROUP=>0.   H Similarly I spent some time converting 6250bpi reel-to-reel backups thatL were up to 15 years old to DLT. They were written by a pair of TA78s, (whichL periodically would fail to read each others tapes due to head alignment) andH were read now by a TZ?? drive. I got a LOT of recovered errors, and some unrecoverables.   L The main problem was that these tapes had only been through a drive once, upI to 15 years ago, so were still in the "new tape shedding oxide" phase, as E well as the "old tape losing coating" phase. This meant a lot of head 	 cleaning.X  @ Using two copies of some tapes I got all but about 3 files back.  7 The original backup was, I think /GROUP=50/CRC/NOVERIFYe   Alan   >  > Bart ZornD >  > Nic Clews wrote: > > Kiasu Surfer wrote:0 > > S > >>I wonder if the different blocksize used for backup and restore would cause anyt) > >>data integrity problem after restore?e > >>R > >>I am considering using BLOCKSIZE of 61440 for my DLT IV tape as recommended byI > >>Compaq FAQ web, but presently all my backup using BLOCKSIZE of 32256.e > >>T > >>If i were to change restore scripts, would restoration of the older backup tapesP > >>be any problem? (OVMS 7.1 on Alpha, backup using /NOCRC /GROUP=0 parameters) > >  > > I > > Bart is right to point out, particularly when you use the words "data L > > integrity" while quoting a command that has "GROUP=0" and "NOCRC" in it,D > > they are mutually exclusive. Having said that, modern DLT drivesH > > typically do have hardware CRC, but without a verification pass, youD > > could quite easily have written something totally unrecoverable. > > K > > One factor is that you would be unable to copy a saveset from tape ontotI > > disk, maximum size on disk is 32768 (ish) and to move savesets aroundsJ > > you'll need Save Set Manager (layered product), assuming your tape was
 > > readable.b > > J > > Sorry to sound so negative, but when you've been around long enough toK > > find your cynicism in in computer hardware proved, you tend to approachyI > > jobs with care and caution, particularly when it isn't mine [data] toa	 > > lose.h > >  >    -- c
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/I   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:53:15 GMTi9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>XE Subject: Re: External Authentication and Windows2000 Active Directoryi? Message-ID: <2791b1d24b.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>   5 In message <3e634fcf$0$49104$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>t4           Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> wrote:   > Brad McCusker wrote:> > > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message1 > > news:Ku5vH43sgCuc@eisner.encompasserve.org...t > > @ > >>In article <a98cd882.0302250221.a4f78ef@posting.google.com>, > > + > > Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn) writes:  > >  > >>>Hello,e > >>>:I > >>>Is anyone using External Authentication from OpenVMS V7.3 / Advanced J > >>>Server V7.3 to a Windows2000 Active Directory domain? Advanced ServerH > >>>has it's own domain and has a /TRUSTED relation with the AD domain. > >> > > N > > Have you verified that the trust itself is working?  If so, then, Ext Auth > > should work. > I > No, I don't know how to verify that. There was a side effect, however, :K > which makes me think that at least something worked (although aversely). pH > User who have a userid with the same name in both domains (which were J > unrelated before I established the trust) started to get authentication F > problems which we previously did not have. We deleted the trust and * > those problems disappeared (I think...).  a This reminds me of a problem we encountered with WinNT - it might be totally different of course:i  G Our test department chose to log on all the machines first thing in the-E morning, using the same username on each. Partway through the day the I password expired. The same user logged on again and changed the password.FL Shortly afterwards the account was locked out, due to excessive failed login	 attempts.o  I Turned out the already logged in machines were producing "login failures" * because they wre caching the old password.  A You might have something similar. (Encrypted vs plain passwords?)u   > H > >>>I think I have set everything according to the documentation, but I= > >>>keep getting "%LOGIN-F-NOSUCHUSER, no such user" errors.w > >>>s > >> > > O > > I suspect that the problem isn't with the AD aspect of things, but, insteaddM > > with the ability of the local machine to find the user remotely, and that@I > > could be due to some hostmap restrictions (things like hostmapdomainscJ > > registry settings?), or, you are relying on an implicit mapping to the+ > > remote domain that isn't being allowed?  > > O > > When you login, have you tried specifying the username in a username@domain,  > > format (or domain\username)? >  > Yes, none of these worked. >  > > ? > >>>It does work when I try it with another OpenVMS/AS domain.h > >>>  > >> > > K > > What works?  EA to the other AS domain?  Or, the other AS domain has EAx > > working to an AD domain? > , >  From one AS domain to an other AS domain. > ! > >>>Has anybody any suggestions?a > >>J > >>1. Are you surely running Windows 2000 in a "backward compatibility to > >>   earlier windows" mode ? > >> > > M > > This shouldn't be necessary, but, it might simplify things.  On a related M > > note, I would check some of the AD domain security settings.  Things like I > > "restrictanonymous" registry setting can wreak havoc with Win2K/WinNT  > > interoperability.y > F > I hope to be able to test in a more separated test environment next * > week. I will let you know how things go. >  > > Brad > >  > 	 > Thanks!d >  > Bart Zorne >  >    -- n
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:43:20 -0500T3 From: Tom Rymes <tomnews@rymes.extraneous.junk.net>a- Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIXnE Message-ID: <tomnews-89DDF6.15432013032003@news.comcast.giganews.com>   3 In article <JXHcDosOffk3@eisner.encompasserve.org>,o   briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:  L > In article <tomnews-F9A170.11444113032003@news.comcast.giganews.com>, Tom 3 > Rymes <tomnews@rymes.extraneous.junk.net> writes:,K > > Hi folks, I'm back again, a little worse for wear from my tussles with eK > > our software vendor. One of our options is a Unixware server (booooo!) eA > > instead of an Alpha to replace our VAX. Aside from any other nJ > > considerations of a VMS to UNIX move (like SCO's continued viability, L > > O/S features/stability/what-have-you), what are the reasonably expected J > > costs/trouble involved in moving existing files between VMS and UNIX? M > > (Keep in mind we have no TCP/IP stack running on the VAX, but we do have g > > Pathworks) > > J > > Basically, they've quoted an outrageous price for moving/"converting" I > > files between the two systems, and I'm preparing to call BS on that.  M > > Seems to me that other than actually copying the files, some permissions  F > > to be set, maybe a little directory structure to build, etc there I > > shouldn't be much to it. Honestly, I imagine that you could even use iJ > > Pathworks to transfer the files back and forth, using a Windows/Samba ; > > host as an intermediary (since the VAX has no TCP/IP). y > B > Do I understand you correctly that essentialy all your files are> > Pathworks files and the VAX is essentially a PC file server? > I > If so then you're absolutely right.  You could copy all the files usingeE > the Pathworks interface and xcopy or your choice of backup utility.  > B > I'd be mightily tempted to go that route simply because it wouldB > be a rock solid guarantee that the file transfer would not cause > file format issues.a > E > On the other hand, if you are saying that the files are on your VAXdC > and you intend to use Pathworks as a tool to get VAX format filessH > from the VAX to the Unix box, because you lack any other interoperable7 > network connectivity then you are asking for trouble.n   [snip]  I Here's the rub, then. Seems like it is more than I might have thought at wG first blush. We'd be moving database files belonging to a program that yD is written in DBL and BASIC, AFAIK. Unfortunately, the files aren't G simply PC files normally shared via Pathworks (that would be too easy, L now wouldn't it?).  G These files would run on the UNIX platform with a different version of tD the same program using DBL on UNIX, too. Not a relational database, H either, BTW. The software vendor wants what seems to be an over-the-top # amount of $$$ to move these files. t  I Maybe I'm wrong, but I would imagine that they should have some in-house EC software tools to allow a more or less automated transfer of these 2I files, no? (They do this for any customer moving from VAX to UNIX, which  * seems to be their big push at this point.)  F I wish I could provide more info. Just thought I'd float the question G and get a better idea of what is involved. Seems the more I know about  H this the better equipped I am to end up with a system that does what we 0 want, for a price that is fair for all involved.   Thanks to everyone!f   Tome   -- s@ To reply via e-mail, remove the extraneous junk from my address.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:35:45 -0400v0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>- Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX / Message-ID: <3E70EB94.BEFDE2BA@vl.videotron.ca>a   Frank da Cruz wrote:H > Right -- ZIP and TAR archives are either all-text or all-binary, so if7 > you have a mixture, one or the other will be wrecked.T    M If it is a one time transfer, then ZIP/TAR would also waste time. You have to T zip it, then transfer it, then unzipt it. Might as well send the files uncompressed.  / >   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckermit.html   J I concurr. for a one shot deal on a machine without TCPIP stack, kermit isK your friend. Of course, your high proiced consultant may be charging you ancJ arm and a leg for his time to research this, do some analysis, feasabilityJ study etc (meanwhile, you can get kermit, and start the transfers yourself/ before that consultant finds out about kermit).r  7 > If you have a directory tree, you can tell Kermit to:  >   send /recursive *.**   Wow ! neat !  7 > Of course if you have random-access or indexed files,*  M But unless you use SET FILE TYPE LABELED, won't Kermit transfer indexed files = as text files, with a record order matching the primary key ?*   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:58:03 -0400e0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>- Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIXh/ Message-ID: <3E70F0CC.BCB10681@vl.videotron.ca>*   Tom Rymes wrote:J > Maybe I'm wrong, but I would imagine that they should have some in-houseD > software tools to allow a more or less automated transfer of theseJ > files, no? (They do this for any customer moving from VAX to UNIX, which, > seems to be their big push at this point.)   There are two issues.   G Moving the files from one machine to another. This is a no-brainer withnI Kermit. (well, ok, you do need a few brain cells, but if a frog can do it  (me), anyone can :-)  L The second issue is that of file contents and formats. If the application onE the target system uses different file formats for the layout of data,*N paremeters etc, then the data itself may need some conversion. The applicationS folks should have some tools to migrate the data format from one fromat to another.*   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:31:10 -0000 ! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> - Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIXo/ Message-ID: <v728mee1ete521@corp.supernews.com>i  4 Tom Rymes <tomnews@rymes.extraneous.junk.net> wrote:H : Basically, they've quoted an outrageous price for moving/"converting" G : files between the two systems, and I'm preparing to call BS on that. ;   What kind of files?d   Text?  Binary data?r   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:26:04 +0000 (UTC) * From: bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau)X Subject: Re: How many other sites had their CSLG licenses expire at midnight last night?0 Message-ID: <b4r42c$mfj$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>  S In article <v60067j62rlmfd@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:_, >Lawrence Bleau <bleau@umtof.umd.edu> wrote:K >: If anyone wants it, I'll post it.  Actually, it's so short, I'll includeT >: it below. >... >s
 >: $ WC X.! >: $ nexp = f$integer(nlines) - 5  >_" >You'd better include WC, as well.  J Since >300 lines is a bit much to post to a NG, I put the source (Fortran)= to me WC program in the anonymous ftp area of umtof.umd.edu .i     Lawrence Bleau University of Maryland" Physics Dept., Space Physics Group 301-405-6223 bleau@umtof.umd.edue   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 13:52:52 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)m1 Subject: Re: how to pick out OpenVMS I64 in code? 3 Message-ID: <bc9fRJ3vbbdy@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <Y7DHFetvagFz@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:eH > I believe they will be so close that it will be _very_ seldom that anyI > user mode code needs to distinguish the difference between AXP and IPF.   G   User mode?  I'm waiting to find out how to poke the kernel structures "   that control time slewing.   8-)  F   OK, for that I'll wait.  I probably have enough work to do reversing!   #ifdef __alpha to #ifdef __vax.n  :   But I'm still curious what the macros for C/C++ will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:37:48 -0400s0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>& Subject: IBM starts to work on Power-5/ Message-ID: <3E70FA1B.7E998371@vl.videotron.ca>   K IBM annoucned recently it had begun to run code on its new Power-5 chip and	 expects to boot Linux/AIX soon.   F It is support to ge 4 times as fast as Power-4 and will scale up to 64 processors in a machine.  0 http://news.com.com/2100-1001-984808.html?tag=rn  L So while Intel may be bragging about its IA64 version 2 competing against anL old Power-4, IBM seems to be on the verge of unleashing something which will# put the IA64-2 back into its place.   = How long before Intel can quadruple the performance of IA64 ?a   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:29:09 -0500l* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>* Subject: Re: IBM starts to work on Power-52 Message-ID: <T6-dnf_OKbvFv-yjXTWcoA@metrocast.net>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message.) news:3E70FA1B.7E998371@vl.videotron.ca... I > IBM annoucned recently it had begun to run code on its new Power-5 chip  andt! > expects to boot Linux/AIX soon.e >eH > It is support to ge 4 times as fast as Power-4 and will scale up to 64 > processors in a machine. >(2 > http://news.com.com/2100-1001-984808.html?tag=rn >tK > So while Intel may be bragging about its IA64 version 2 competing againstd an > old Power-4,  F They are indeed about equal in per-core performance, though each leadsC somewhat in certain areas.  Of course, the POWER4 is about twice as L efficient in use of power (each dual-core chip takes about the same power as the single-core Itanic2).s  @  IBM seems to be on the verge of unleashing something which will% > put the IA64-2 back into its place.   L The POWER4+, which is already available, is already faster by most measures.J Madison should move back out in front of POWER4+ (though not by very much,J if IBM increases its clock rate as planned) this summer, but POWER5 shouldK regain the lead for IBM next year.  And through all this POWERx will retaint+ its significant power-efficiency advantage.    > ? > How long before Intel can quadruple the performance of IA64 ?   K 2005:  each of the two cores on Montecito should be about twice as powerful1E as the current Itanic2, unless running both Montecito cores that fast K produces too much heat (not an unlikely possibility), in which case they'll\I have to throttle them back somewhat (less performance, but it'll at leaste4 help reduce power use to something more reasonable).  J Of course, if you meant quadruple *per-core* performance that's nowhere toE be seen (though the optimistic can hope the Alpha team's effort mightMF produce something of that nature in 2006 - 7).  Note that the POWER5'sG projected quadrupling of performance *is* on a per-core basis, but that K includes what I suspect may be a somewhat overly-generous estimate (2x) for	L the contribution of POWER5's SMT capabilities.  Still, expecting each POWER5J core next year to offer about twice the performance of today's POWER4 coreL if SMT contributions are neglected, and about 3x the performance when SMT isK included in the calculation, doesn't seem at all unreasonable - which means=L that in server applications (where SMT tends to be quite useful) POWER5 nextI year should offer about 1.5x the per-core performance and 3x the per-chiptG performance of Madison/Madison II, and should be at least equal without 3 further changes to the dual-core Montecito in 2005.s   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:18:00 -060031 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 7 Subject: Re: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down?o' Message-ID: <3E7157F8.832FBB0C@fsi.net>$  
 VAXVMS wrote:. > 6 > I got a phone call this morning from someone who had9 > talked to Mrs. C- the message has been relayed to David05 > and he'll be looking into things as soon as he can.a  E Perhaps someone has discovered that since VMS cannot be attacked, thehE attack must be launched against something running on it that's not as  bullet-proof as VMS itself.y   --   David J. Dachteran dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:04:02 -0500s1 From: "Farrell, Michael" <MFarrell@voltdelta.com>  Subject: RE: just got thisP Message-ID: <025766C9BBC5D511A4ED00B0D0F08C23163A9E@zny_exchange1.maintech1.com>   Sue,  J When I clicked on the URL below, a pop up window also came up asking me toK take another HP survey.  I clicked.  Up pops another window with the surveyeF called "HP is listening  Start talking".  The window is too big to fitJ easily on my 17" monitor, but anyway I answer the questions about how well! HP is now paying attention to me.y  I Then I answer the last question looking for a "Submit" button to send the2L survey.  There is NONE!!  No way on this screen to send the work I just did. Sure is not encouraging!!a   Regards,   Mike Farrell mfarrell@voltdelta.com    -----Original Message----- H From: 	susan_skonetski@hotmail.com [mailto:susan_skonetski@hotmail.com] & Sent:	Thursday, March 13, 2003 1:34 PM To:	Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com. Subject:	just got this  5 From what I can tell this is not an Encompass survey.>  C At http://www.hpuseradvocacy.org/ the newest instapoll question has  been added:d  @ Which of the following HP platforms (which exclude those with anF announced end of life) do you plan to include in your mission-critical environment in the future?  	  a. HP-UXi  b. NonStop Server  c. OpenVMS   d. HP-UX and NonStop Server  e. HP-UX and OpenVMSb  f. NonStop Server and OpenVMS  g. All of the above  h. None of the above-  B You can view results of past questions or submit an issue today atF http://www.hpuseradvocacy.org/. The results of these polls go directlyA to HP for their review. The results for the last Instapoll are as  follows:  A Has the merger of HP and Compaq caused changes to your Tru64 UNIXs purchase decisions:H   A I am adopting a wait and see attitude for the next 12 months - 17  15.6% 1 I am re-evaluating my long term plans - 27 24.8% AD I decided to stop purchasing AlphaServers when the IA64 strategy was announced - 34 31.2%> I have confidence in the transition of Tru64 to HP-UX and will3 continue to purchase AlphaServer systems - 31 28.4%a   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 14:01:11 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: RE: just got this3 Message-ID: <GXpGwqN6JW+M@eisner.encompasserve.org>t   In article <025766C9BBC5D511A4ED00B0D0F08C23163A9E@zny_exchange1.maintech1.com>, "Farrell, Michael" <MFarrell@voltdelta.com> writes: > Sue, > L > When I clicked on the URL below, a pop up window also came up asking me to > take another HP survey.-  ; That problem can be avoided by leaving JavaScript disabled.u   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 14:00:02 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)iC Subject: Re: just got this (hpuseradvocacy operating system survey)a3 Message-ID: <cbFuwfwLjHXf@eisner.encompasserve.org>w  o In article <857e9e41.0303131033.67b81a@posting.google.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes:a7 > From what I can tell this is not an Encompass survey.  > E > At http://www.hpuseradvocacy.org/ the newest instapoll question hass
 > been added:u > B > Which of the following HP platforms (which exclude those with anH > announced end of life) do you plan to include in your mission-critical > environment in the future? >  >  a. HP-UXt >  b. NonStop Server
 >  c. OpenVMSl >  d. HP-UX and NonStop Server >  e. HP-UX and OpenVMS5  >  f. NonStop Server and OpenVMS >  g. All of the above >  h. None of the above.  1 And the current results are that VMS is trailing.e  B Certainly response is skewed by their distribution of the notices,D as response can be further skewed by reaction to this discussion :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:01:26 -0500n( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>C Subject: Re: just got this (hpuseradvocacy operating system survey)t, Message-ID: <3E70F1A6.4070005@tsoft-inc.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  q > In article <857e9e41.0303131033.67b81a@posting.google.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes:  > 7 >>From what I can tell this is not an Encompass survey.g >>E >>At http://www.hpuseradvocacy.org/ the newest instapoll question has 
 >>been added:l >>B >>Which of the following HP platforms (which exclude those with anH >>announced end of life) do you plan to include in your mission-critical >>environment in the future? >> >> a. HP-UXC >> b. NonStop Server
 >> c. OpenVMSs >> d. HP-UX and NonStop Server >> e. HP-UX and OpenVMSs  >> f. NonStop Server and OpenVMS >> g. All of the above >> h. None of the above  >> > 3 > And the current results are that VMS is trailing.d > D > Certainly response is skewed by their distribution of the notices,F > as response can be further skewed by reaction to this discussion :-) >   P Damn right!  Witness the power of c.o.v!  VMS now has over 54% of the vote.  :-)   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:56:41 -0500e& From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>& Subject: Re: Lightweight TCP/IP stack?8 Message-ID: <n2327v830em283q7co68tmmg6lcm8bhuug@4ax.com>  G On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 22:18:20 +0100, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote:p  K >On my VAXstation 2000 I use CMU-IP. It runs on VMS 5.5-1 and VMS 5.5-2. Noe@ >idea what the support status of that stack is. It is definitely >light-weight.  + One place to find CMU and documentation is:t  1 	http://www.agh.cc.kcl.ac.uk/files/vms/cmu-tcpip/     I -------------------------------------------------------------------------tI David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot compI Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)lI -------------------------------------------------------------------------e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:52:24 GMTp6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)P Subject: Re: Logical name table space available - how many logicals can I create5 Message-ID: <YQ8ca.215559$AV5.2452051@news.chello.at>a  v In article <58ba0101.0303130312.41c27991@posting.google.com>, andrew.rycroft@intrinsitech.com (Andrew Rycroft) writes:F >I am about to tune my database application. This exercise will resultG >in the creation of about 1000 extra system logical names. Is there any.G >way I can sse how much free logical name space there is, and if I need- >to increase it ?-  4 It depends on what table you want to create them in.I eg. the job logical name table normally has a limit set (/JTQUOTA in UAF)iF Other logical name tables normally have no limit despite the fact thatK you need memory (PAGEDYN) for them and space for the hashing (LNM%HASHTBL).<  K However, I once had found a problem with too many logicals (I entered aboutrI 2000 additional logicals in the system table) where SHOW LOGICAL did hangsI forever (after many minutes, I gave up waiting). Programmatical lookup ofnM the logicals worked allright and so it was only annoying but no real problem. I I think, the problem is still there (because I never made a service call)-  F So, try it (at best with a separate logical name table - maybe createdF and filled once at startup time - in the system directory, linked intoI the normal logical lookup process - via the LNM$DCL_LOGICAL logical whichsG is also in the system directory LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY) and tell us then.e  H Finally, think about letting AUTOGEN increase the parameters for you ;-)   -- s Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERs% Network and OpenVMS system specialiste E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:46:27 GMT-- From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com>3Y Subject: Re: Logical name table space available - how many logicals can I create createcrh= Message-ID: <DD9ca.22545$s75.8985677@twister.columbus.rr.com>1   Andrew Rycroft wrote:cG > I am about to tune my database application. This exercise will resultnH > in the creation of about 1000 extra system logical names. Is there anyH > way I can see how much free logical name space there is, and if I need > to increase it ?  ; There are no tools that come with VMS to do this.  Writing e8 such a tool is not incredibly difficult, having done so 2 about 15+ years ago (sorry the code is long lost).  : The short answer was already suggested.  Add 1000 "dummy" $ logical and let autogen sort it out.  < I like to think that my presentation on tuning for ALL-IN-1 : (which used large quantities of LNMs) which should 10-20% 9 system improvement by increasing LNMHASHTBL lead to this d autogen feature.  < For those of you who have not read any of the VMS internals < books, the JOB, GROUP, and SYSTEM, and any other table that 8 is not process private, LNM tables were (are?) actually 7 stored in 1 data structure.  Increasing the table size t< increases the chance that the hash algorithm will "hit" the < first time.  If not, the name are stored in a sorted linked < list.  IIRC, the look up algorithm bails out once it passes    a name with a different size.c  = One hole in the algorithm used to be, if there were multiple o= "shared" LNMs that used the same name (i.e. every job having  < a JOB logical for SYS$PRINT).  The hash would send them all 9 to the same table location, the linear search would walk c< until it found the correct table info.  This was circa V4.X 1   I wonder if that algorithm was ever changed ???s   -- o  
 Jack Patteeuw1   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 15:10:26 -0800& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan)8 Subject: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible)= Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0303131510.6b786875@posting.google.com>-  F We still have some customers happily chugging away on 'newer' MicroVAXD 3100 systems.  One with a 3100-85 is looking at a memory upgrade andA wants newer/bigger disks to go along with an upgrade from V6.2 to D V7.3.  An Alpha is not an option at this time due to licensing costs (stinking ADL licenses...)  ? Current disks are internal to the VAX and a BA42 cabinet; threenB RZ26Ls.  We would like to go with three (updated) identical drivesF mounted internally.  4GB each would actually be OK, 9GB would be fine,E 7200 RPM is acceptable (the BA42 keeps two of them nice and cool, anda? the room is refrigerated)... and we'd like them 'new' and underw6 warranty to knock some bucks off the service contract.  > As an option we might go with a BA350-type shelf, assuming the> appropriate drives are still available new in SBB.  That wouldF eliminate the cooling load on the VAX, and the whole storage enclosureD from the contract (although the BA350 would almost certainly have toD go on support; I don't think those have been available new for quite some time).   F So... is there still a source for new DEC/Compaq/HP SCSI drives usableC on a VAX SCSI bus, internal or SBB?  Or are we stuck with used, and-1 therefore with continuing service contract costs?m   Thanks!<   Rich Jordany CCS    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:51:15 -0400y0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>< Subject: Re: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible)/ Message-ID: <3E71276B.99A07D54@vl.videotron.ca>    Rich Jordan wrote:H > So... is there still a source for new DEC/Compaq/HP SCSI drives usable' > on a VAX SCSI bus, internal or SBB?     H Back in 1999, I bought a new seagate drive (1 gig) from an outfit called K-TRONICS International.J Sorry, I don'T remember their URL or phone number. Theye were somewhere in california if I remember well.  I You could also try what used to be the Digital Refurbished departments in K varous countries. (Perhals lsland Computers (or whatever their name is this4K week) would be able to point you to current DEC refurn contact numbers. (orT' they could get you some of that stuff).s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:55:57 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>2< Subject: RE: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible)9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGENGGMAA.tom@kednos.com>t  H Is there no way to take a larger drive and make it appear to be only 1GBH in size so as to avoid the address warapping problem with these systems?   >-----Original Message----- 8 >From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca]' >Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:51 PMm >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com= >Subject: Re: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible)n >s >  >Rich Jordan wrote: I >> So... is there still a source for new DEC/Compaq/HP SCSI drives usable & >> on a VAX SCSI bus, internal or SBB? >rI >Back in 1999, I bought a new seagate drive (1 gig) from an outfit called  >K-TRONICS International.rK >Sorry, I don'T remember their URL or phone number. Theye were somewhere in  >california if I remember well.- >-J >You could also try what used to be the Digital Refurbished departments inL >varous countries. (Perhals lsland Computers (or whatever their name is thisL >week) would be able to point you to current DEC refurn contact numbers. (or( >they could get you some of that stuff). >m >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free..; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 2/13/2003i >V --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 2/13/2003   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:15:56 -0500A& From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@rcn.com>< Subject: RE: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible)< Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030313211347.04a79e38@pop.rcn.com>  ' At 05:55 PM 3/13/2003 -0800, you wrote:5I >Is there no way to take a larger drive and make it appear to be only 1GB I >in size so as to avoid the address warapping problem with these systems?   L I belive the address wrapping problem only affected the earlier versions of E the 3100. And only the system disk.  In the last year I've worked on  M 3100-85's and 3100-90's with system disks larger than 1GB with no ill affect.h   Ken    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:33:44 -0800r# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>n< Subject: RE: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible)9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOENHGMAA.tom@kednos.com>i  1 That may be, but that did not answer my question.    >-----Original Message-----n. >From: Ken Robinson [mailto:kenrbnsn1@rcn.com]' >Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 6:16 PM/ >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com= >Subject: RE: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible)e >  >1( >At 05:55 PM 3/13/2003 -0800, you wrote:J >>Is there no way to take a larger drive and make it appear to be only 1GBJ >>in size so as to avoid the address warapping problem with these systems? >eA >I belive the address wrapping problem only affected the earlier h
 >versions of nF >the 3100. And only the system disk.  In the last year I've worked on C >3100-85's and 3100-90's with system disks larger than 1GB with no a >ill affect. >  >Ken >o >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.o; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).cA >Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 2/13/2003D >  ---i& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 2/13/2003   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:36:03 +0000I) From: Antonio Carlini <arcarlini@iee.org>bK Subject: Re: Migrating from PSI X-25 to another product (hardware/software) & Message-ID: <3E7107D3.7010104@iee.org>   Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:I >> Yes, there is (or better was). And it was the main reason to switch torK > DECnet PhaseV (then called DECnet-VAX Extensions V5.4 at VMS V5.4 times).sN > The DECnis (we had a 500 and a 600) as the multiprotocol router (for DECnet,M > TCP/IP and others, and connected X.25 over a V.35 or V.36/RS449 or X.21 ... M > line and serving X.25 to the VMS hosts via the GAP Gateway Access Protocol)u  A The DECnis X.25 code was built out of the same source tree as the.B VAX/VMS PSI code. (In fact, the DEMSA X.25 Gateway code also built out of that codebase).  H > Our last VAX got wracked well after X.25 (which got cancelled with theG > DECnis many years ago) so there was no need to find a GAP replacement I > GAP is/was not available on OpenVMS Alpha, so one had to use LLC2 (readnI > X.25 over LAN) and the X.25 product on OpenVMS Alpha (which didn't likeu= > the old PSI license but did also want a license at all ;-).y  H Although the DECnis is effectively cancelled (there being neither sourceF code available nor engineers to work on it), when last I looked, there: was still support for PSI (as part of DECnet-Plus on VAX).  D As for X.25 on OpenVMS Alpha, I think that has always had GAP ClientD support. It acquired GAP Server support a few years ago too. I think@ the Tru64 side also acquired GAP Client support some time later.> Assuming that GAP wasn't a requirement but X.25 was, then bothC DECnis and Tru64 offered X25 Relay support (and that was also added D to the OpenVMS Alpha product a few years ago and can be activated in the VAX product too).e  I > So, if you keep a/the VAX and find an old DECnis (don't think that DNPGnG > still sell/support them, but I may be wrong) is probably the cheapest 9 > solutions. But don't forget to check the other hints...i  F DECnis was EOLd sometime in the timeframe of the Cabletron takeover ofG DEC's network group. Various chips had become impossible to get hold ofaG (not least the NVAX CPU on the MPC3) so continued manufacturing was not  a serious proposition.  G At the time, one recommendation was to use LLC2 on the LAN and a Tru 64hH box to do X25 Relay. I think the RouteAbouts may also be able to do X25 = Relay, but I never seriously used those, so I cannot be sure.s   Antonio    --   ---------------m- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgo   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 13:13:39 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 3 Subject: Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrantsm3 Message-ID: <+zcs3cEmQN2o@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  b In article <3E6F9A5C.3A894F9E@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:$ > re: Boycott of "french fries" etc. >   F    Since the largest supplier of french fries is clearly that American?    company from Elk Grove, and they haven't changed thier menu,eC    an actual boycott would simply hurt the already damaged American :    economy (but might be good for the American wasteline).  N > Does this mean that French's Mustard will have to change their brand name to > "Freedom's mustard" ?v  J    Who uses yellow mustard?  Nice jar of Botje's or Plochman's, thank you.  P > Does this mean that products made in Paris (ontario, canada) automatically getO > lumped into the boycott as well  because they have the "made in paris" sign ?f  1    Yes, unless Canada starts to support Mr. Bush.o  M > Since Canada also does not support the USA, does this mean that you'll stopp > buying Canadian Bacon ?h  J    Can't buy it anyhow.  That film hasn't been in the theaters in years.  7    I don't it's on the shelf at any video shop, either.   2    OK, maybe John Candy has a copy he'll sell you.  N > Will you send us back Tom Green, Jim Carey, and the rest of all the canadianL > actors ? (oops, what will you do without 24's ending if Jack and Kim Bauer4 > aren't available to shoot the remaining eposides ?  M    They can have Bill Shatner back and 24 will just have to start filming up      north like everybody else.d  P > And oh lord, that actor in jag or protrays a US NAVY pilot/lawyer will have to > come back to Canada too. :-)  1    Unless he volunteers to join the real US Navy.n  M > Since German is also now an enemy of the USA, does this mean that americans O > will stop buying Chrysler cars ? OOPS, that would mean fewer USA jobs. What at > conundrum... k  F    No, it means the US government will fund a large buyout at taxpayer6    expense.  It will then be sold at a loss to Toyota.  G > Will american companies immediatly dump all their SAP installations ?o  K    No, in six or seven years when SAP installations have finally started to D    something other than employ consultants this will all be over and
    forgotten.   M > In a global economy, you can no longer boycott countries with whom you have   > wide range of trade relations.  D    That's right, everybody has to go along with the US or we'll stopC    buying their oil.  We'll have Iraq and the Alaskan wilderness tot    supply oil instead.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:31:39 GMT<9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>o Subject: Re: Numeric usernames? Message-ID: <928fc5d24b.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>w  / In message <xzeba.167$rf3.133@news.cpqcorp.net>a.           hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote:  e > In article <bSJM8xotvMAE@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: ^ > :In article <3E6D635F.FF9E5486@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:" > :> "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" wrote: > :>> L > :>> What implications are there in a username not having the correspondingC > :>> identifier created ?  (and hence in using numeric usernames).  > :> h1 > :> Roughly the same as usernames sharing a UIC.a > :  > :I disagree strongly.i > G >   Larry is correct.  Sharing UICs is hugely different than not having.H >   a text-format translation of a UIC value in the RIGHTSLIST (which isE >   what AUTHORIZE ADD is referencing here) and sharing UICs can leadtD >   to all manner of interesting security problems and exposures andG >   accountability issues.  Like a username, a UIC should be issued and 6 >   maintained and accountable to a single individual. > H >   If anyone here feels included to share UICs for application-specificD >   reasons or for shared storage or such, please look at the use ofD >   identifiers and particularly (for storage) resource identifiers.  H PROMIS manufacturing system requires the use of UIC [x.377] for databaseF startup and shutdown. x designates which database. (The reason is fileD ownership. Messing with ACLs on the database would break during each- upgrade, which is difficult enough as it is.)n  J In order for both System Admin and database Admins to be able to start andJ stop, either both need to share a password, or we create two accounts withH same UIC. In this case we felt that the shared UIC gave better security.   > F >   If you need to share a login, it should be secured -- this usuallyF >   means either a restricted or (better) a captive login environment. > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------L >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comP >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------G >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comL >    -- o
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:14:01 -0600'1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>s Subject: Re: Numeric usernames' Message-ID: <3E715709.2AEA3F4B@fsi.net>    Alan Adams wrote:? > 1 > In message <xzeba.167$rf3.133@news.cpqcorp.net>,0 >           hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote: > g > > In article <bSJM8xotvMAE@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:s` > > :In article <3E6D635F.FF9E5486@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:$ > > :> "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" wrote: > > :>>rN > > :>> What implications are there in a username not having the correspondingE > > :>> identifier created ?  (and hence in using numeric usernames).- > > :>3 > > :> Roughly the same as usernames sharing a UIC.z > > :e > > :I disagree strongly.> > >jI > >   Larry is correct.  Sharing UICs is hugely different than not havingvJ > >   a text-format translation of a UIC value in the RIGHTSLIST (which isG > >   what AUTHORIZE ADD is referencing here) and sharing UICs can leadoF > >   to all manner of interesting security problems and exposures andI > >   accountability issues.  Like a username, a UIC should be issued andt8 > >   maintained and accountable to a single individual. > >cJ > >   If anyone here feels included to share UICs for application-specificF > >   reasons or for shared storage or such, please look at the use ofF > >   identifiers and particularly (for storage) resource identifiers. > J > PROMIS manufacturing system requires the use of UIC [x.377] for databaseH > startup and shutdown. x designates which database. (The reason is fileF > ownership. Messing with ACLs on the database would break during each/ > upgrade, which is difficult enough as it is.)  > L > In order for both System Admin and database Admins to be able to start andL > stop, either both need to share a password, or we create two accounts withJ > same UIC. In this case we felt that the shared UIC gave better security.  C Group level permissions and privileges should more than suffice andmE still allow any member number within group x to perform the necessarye
 functions.  D Study up on the Guide to OpenVMS Security or e-mail me privately forA assistance. How to demung the reply-to address should be obvious.a   -- s David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:09:32 -0000f! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>h( Subject: Re: One version of a file ONLY./ Message-ID: <v71pbsdk8c0u34@corp.supernews.com>a  . Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:C :> Is there a way in VMS to specify that there is to be one versiongB :> of a file ONLY, meaning that the creation of a second file with :> the same name would fail?  4 : Create the file with an explicit version of 32767.  2 You'd also need to $set directory/version_limit=1.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:10:51 -0000 ! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>l( Subject: Re: One version of a file ONLY.. Message-ID: <v71pebca9o754@corp.supernews.com>   Does this meet your needs?   $ create/dir [.test] $ set dir/ver=1 [.test]r $ create [.test]a.a;32767q hellon ^Z $ create [.test]a.a;1gE %CREATE-E-OPENOUT, error opening USER$:[ZARLENGA.TEST]A.A;1 as outputa" -RMS-E-CRE, ACP file create failed3 -SYSTEM-W-TOOMANYVER, too many higher file versions- $ type [.test]a.ah helloa $0   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:10:37 -0500c* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <XLidnQe3OeYySu2jXTWcqw@metrocast.net>  ; "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message_7 news:b096a4ee.0303121910.6f366ecc@posting.google.com...o   ...s  - > But Bill, you're lightning quick to condemn   K You've hardly shown yourself to be a sufficiently neutral participant to be H qualified even to post thoughtful assessments, let alone such hyperbolicK garbage.  I haven't been 'quick' to condemn anything, and in fact until theuJ aftermath of the Rabin assassination was relatively sympathetic to Israel.    when you have shown thatGE > you didn't even know how the boundaries of Israel have changed over-B > the years. You thought Israel started the Yom Kippur war (1973).  J The fact that I chose to embark on a tangential discussion of history withK someone who appears to be at least equally uninformed has no real relevance7H to my opinions about the situation since Rabin's murder, which have beenF formed through fairly close attention to the on-going activities.  TheL particular statement you're referring to above was "IIRC Israel started bothI the 1967 and the 1973 wars":  the point (and entire historical sub-topic)lF was, as noted, a tangential one, I qualified my statement suitably (byL prefacing it with 'IIRC'), and in fact Israel *did* start the 1967 war - butI in any event I'm afraid that your continuing excursion down this tangent,-F though possibly a learning opportunity for us both, isn't particularlyI germane to the discussion of the situation *today* which was the originalr basis of the sub-topic.     YouH > believe Arafat. If even some of what you claim is true, your quicknessG > to attack based on little, and sometimes, incorrect knowledge doesn'tt > help your credibility any.  @ As I've said in other contexts, I don't give a flying fuck aboutJ credibility:  I expect any people I might care about communicating with toK judge both information and the people who present it for themselves, rathert" than be susceptible to persuasion.  H While (as I've also said before) I appreciate your sincerity, I'm afraidC that I find your own 'credibility' (since you seem to consider that-L significant) to be fairly low and your objectivity on the matter of Israel'sI current behavior just about nil.  Unless something happens to change thatT@ opinion, I don't think I'll continue this conversation with you.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:32:01 -0500B* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <pc6dnfM71-8pQe2jXTWcqg@metrocast.net>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message@ news:5NHba.5371$a41.2778@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...   ...   F > Hypothetically (or not), if the US unilaterally invades Iraq withoutH > U.N. approval, then de facto the U.S. is in violation of internationalH > law regarding the waging of 'aggressive war'. The U.N. could then callH > for the disarmament of the U.S. and the imposition of sanctions on the > U.S. >m > True or False?  J True, with the qualification that I'm no expert on 'international law' and+ can't speak to the details of its dictates.a  L 1.  The U.N. has *not* approved independent action against Iraq at this timeJ by a member state:  read resolution 1441, and then read resolution 678 forI an example of how such approval is worded when granting it is the intent.hK Dubya and his thugs haven't even a fig leaf to cover them in this area:  astI is normal practice, resolution 1441 'refers to' many previous resolutions G (including 678), but this does not serve to *transfer* resolution 678'scJ approval of such independent action (specifically extended before the GulfH War to support the liberation of Kuwait) to the current (very different)I situation.  Thus the degree to which Iraq may or may not be in compliance F with resolution 1441 is irrelevant to the issue of action without U.N.	 approval.t  F 2.  Lacking such U.N. approval, the war would without doubt constituteF aggression on the part of the U.S.:  no imminent threat by Iraq to ourH country exists (or has even been claimed to exist:  our own intelligenceJ services have stated that action against us by Iraq is likely *only* if we *do* start a war).  H 3.  Thus the U.N. *could* take action against us, but only if we did notI veto such action (which one might consider unlikely).  Unless the General K Assembly (where no one has veto power) has any ability to act independently ( from the Security Council in such areas.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:43:10 -0500t* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <QumcnbP5KJHpZu2jXTWcqw@metrocast.net>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageB news:dI3ca.113469$em1.3514@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...   ...t  .   From the Israeli perspective the war betweenF > Muslims/Arabs and the Jews was not for control of Muslim/Arab land (B > for the Jews had been legally given the land by the UN),  nor toH > ensure that 'Palestinians' were enslaved or exiled, nor to exterminateH > the Muslims - it was a war of physical survival of each jewish person,D > man, woman, and child. To say otherwise is to be a stooge of false > propaganda and a revisionist.n  F You're setting up straw men again.  At least *I* don't remember anyoneJ stating that the Israeli perspective was something different from what you> describe - just that the perspective of others definitely was.   ...t  G > The Jewish people there did not want a war, did not want to kill, butnB > were forced into taking actions in self-defense to prevent their > extermination.  J I think you're conveniently ignoring some of the atrocities perpetrated byG people like the Irgun and the Stern gang here, and even a few by IsraelEC itself.  One can justify them no more, or less, than the actions ofi Palestinian extremists today.   7  The world has continued to pillory them since 1948 forI= > the fact that they were successful at defending themselves.i  G Another gross generalization.  *I* certainly never 'pilloried' them for"K that:  I just pillory them for having had peace within their grasp and thenaI walking away from it when Rabin was so conveniently assassinated, and forbK the subsequent state-sponsored repression (including some actions appearinghK to qualify as atrocities, though since they did not allow U.N. observers inf4 to evaluate them that's subject to possible debate).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:34:18 -0500d* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <l0mdnXaYbZjAZO2jXTWcpw@metrocast.net>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message@ news:j1Jba.5934$a41.3888@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... >e% > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"d: > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message* > news:3E6F1D02.3040903@nospamn.sun.com...   ...c  A > > No but they helped create an environment where extremists are @ > > able to convince young suicide bombers that this is the only > > sensible course of action. > >tB > > Gaza is an ideal environemt for extermists to flourish, Israel< > > is just as responsible for the conditions in Gaza as the > > Palestinian Authority. >I >a	 > Andrew,  >oF > That's pretty disingenuous of you to say that. Where is the personalH > responsibility of the individuals, their parents, their school system,E > their political leaders? Moderates within the Palestinian community 7 > are routinely assassinated by Palestinian extremists.h  J Given your usual fairly high standard of analytical ability, I'm beginning? to suspect that this subject is a rather emotional one for you.r  K There's nothing disingenuous about Andrew's statement.  The fact that other0F influences, even important ones, may *also* exist is irrelevant to theH contention that *both* Israel and the Palestinian Authority have a greatC deal of responsibility for the problems of (and extremism in) Gaza.c   ...,  E > I would suggest that the vast majority of the 'rage' you ascribe toI > people in Gaza  G Are you suggesting by the use of single quotes above that they *aren't*y% extremely unhappy with the situation?a  2 > ought to be directed at the government of Egypt.  K You can suggest this to them, but somehow I suspect you won't get very far:KK better to concentrate on how *they* view the situation and what can be doney	 about it.-     I amE > not 100% sure of all the drawing of lines on the map between Israel7F > and Gaza but let's just call it that there's a narrow buffer zone atH > the border.For all practical purposes Gaza is the same size as it ever> > was and nobody in Gaza who was there in 1968 or 1973 need beH > considered a refugee form their home, ie. the land under their home is > still part of Gaza.o  F Unfortunately, this land is now subject to frequent and often somewhatJ indiscriminate incursions by Israeli tanks, gunships, and missiles - whichI of course have created a new class of refugees of the survivors who until J recently had homes there.  And as part of this process Israel has left theI civil authorities there in tatters, which doesn't exactly help an alreadyw unstable situation.i   ...h  G > Now let's go to a bit of 20th century European history. At the end ofnB > WWII Germany lost territory permanently - Danzig/Gdansk and EastH > Prussia, now part of Poland, and what of Alsace-Lorraine? We don't seeG > Germans today chomping at the bit to goosestep back into those areas..  K Well, in your own words, 'that was then' - and the people who *remained* in1E the conquered areas became citizens of the states that acquired them.e  L And, of course, no longer do you see the Arab states demanding the return ofK the Occupied Territories (let alone Israel proper) either.  What you see iseJ Arab states supporting the Palestinians' desire that the occupation (whichL is not 'then', but is very definitely still 'now') finally cease:  if IsraelD isn't going to make them Israeli citizens (the approach taken in theL European areas you describe above), then 35+ years of occupation is enough -I Israel should start the process of giving them the land to make their own ? state if the countries it used to belong to don't want it back.g  K Your comments in this sub-thread about the Palestinian issue don't begin to G have the relevance that you tend display with so many other topics, and I again I suggest that this may be because you're letting your heart rathereK than your head compose their content.  You clearly are well-acquainted with:J many aspects of the situation and have something to contribute, but you'llH make far more effective contributions if you filter them yourself beforeL posting them so that the conversation can spend most of its time on subjects; more directly relevant to *today's* situation in that area.n   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 16:20:19 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303131620.664fbe5c@posting.google.com>-  d "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<XLidnQe3OeYySu2jXTWcqw@metrocast.net>...= > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messagew9 > news:b096a4ee.0303121910.6f366ecc@posting.google.com...- >  > ...- > / > > But Bill, you're lightning quick to condemn  > M > You've hardly shown yourself to be a sufficiently neutral participant to beGJ > qualified even to post thoughtful assessments, let alone such hyperbolicM > garbage.  I haven't been 'quick' to condemn anything, and in fact until thetL > aftermath of the Rabin assassination was relatively sympathetic to Israel.  B You said the Israelis took the Palestinians homes in 1948 and thatD justified any action by the Pales. That's hardly sympathetic. You've2 been bashing the Israelis pretty hard as I recall.  A Have you read any of the references that John Smith and I posted?n   >  >  when you have shown thattG > > you didn't even know how the boundaries of Israel have changed over D > > the years. You thought Israel started the Yom Kippur war (1973). > L > The fact that I chose to embark on a tangential discussion of history withM > someone who appears to be at least equally uninformed has no real relevanceoJ > to my opinions about the situation since Rabin's murder, which have beenH > formed through fairly close attention to the on-going activities.  The  F I have not made blatant big errors like you have. I at least have someA basic knowledge of things like how the boundaries changed and whot attacked whom.  N > particular statement you're referring to above was "IIRC Israel started bothK > the 1967 and the 1973 wars":  the point (and entire historical sub-topic)eH > was, as noted, a tangential one, I qualified my statement suitably (byN > prefacing it with 'IIRC'), and in fact Israel *did* start the 1967 war - but  F Yes, the Israelis did a pre-emptive strike. But that doesn't guaranteeD the blame. Did the Arabs not choke off the port of Aqaba? Isn't that4 like a blockade? And isn't a blockade an act of war?  K > in any event I'm afraid that your continuing excursion down this tangent,-H > though possibly a learning opportunity for us both, isn't particularlyK > germane to the discussion of the situation *today* which was the original  > basis of the sub-topic.l >  >  YouJ > > believe Arafat. If even some of what you claim is true, your quicknessI > > to attack based on little, and sometimes, incorrect knowledge doesn'th > > help your credibility any. > B > As I've said in other contexts, I don't give a flying fuck aboutL > credibility:  I expect any people I might care about communicating with toM > judge both information and the people who present it for themselves, ratherh$ > than be susceptible to persuasion.  ( Persuasion by whom? What are you saying?   > J > While (as I've also said before) I appreciate your sincerity, I'm afraid  
 thank you.  E > that I find your own 'credibility' (since you seem to consider thatiN > significant) to be fairly low and your objectivity on the matter of Israel'sK > current behavior just about nil.  Unless something happens to change that B > opinion, I don't think I'll continue this conversation with you.  5 That's your opinion. I'm not forcing you to respond. s  B The main reason I joined in on this thread is I perceived a doubleB standard against Israel. I have not defended everything Israel has? done. I said I was against the settlements for example, but notmE because they are wrong, but because they are dumb. Whereas you cannotiB acknowledge a single bad thing on the Arabs side, though there are plenty.l  E But overall, I am on the Israeli side. That doesn't mean I am biased. E But you repeatedly condemned them based on one oversimplified view ofhC the whole situation. According to you, the Palestinians were all byc? themselves minding their own business when the Jews came out ofcC nowhere, for no good reason, and just forcibly kicked them out. TheoD real story is considerably more complex than that. And the fact thatD you were so critical of the Jews in this land based on just that andE incomplete knowledge of the whole situation leads me to think you are3D biased. The fact that you even thought Israel started the Yom Kippur& war may well be a result of that bias.  D And if you favor the Arabs, that's fine. That's your opinion. But toB think it's right to have turned down a generous offer and make theD entire situation incredibly worse, just for the last 5% of the OT's,B (and I think their true aim is to get all of Israel for themselvesE after the Israelis turned a stinking desert into a nice place to liveuE -- see the references posted recently) is, I don't even know the wordb for it.    Check the references.i  + Fine, readers can judge. I've said my part.n    l > - bill   Alan E. Feldmant   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 17:09:39 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303131709.63dcc31b@posting.google.com>h  g JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3E709D8C.6792EBE1@vl.videotron.ca>...o > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:H > > I was pointing out that he was bashing the Jews wihtout even knowingA > > some basic facts of the situation. Seems pretty unfair to me.e > H > I don't know who the "he" is. But please, please, understand that when  C The "he" is Bill Todd, you quoted something I said about his words.h  G > discussing Palestine vs Israel, most westerners think of nations, not2U > religions. It is wrong to state that anyone who criticises Israel is blasting jews.   B OK. I certainly acknowledge that. Fine, go back and replace all myF "Jews" references with pre-Israeli Jews or Israeli Jews in those cases; where it's appropriate. But in some cases, just "Jews" *is*u appropriate.   > M > It is Israel that insists on associating country with religion, the rest of N > the world sees israel as a country only. I don't care whether there are jews > or mormons in Israel.i  C The problem here is that there aren't enough Jews to make more thang? one country. So they are both a religion and a people. (This isn; prbobably due to the fact the Jews don't generally have anyaD evangelists. Friendly people are welcome to convert, but there is noD significant effort to recruit.) So, if you destroy the Jewishness ofF the country, you've pretty much destroyed the "people" as an entity asC well. Then they just become a minority in another country just likeeE Jews are in all other countries. This is a unique, or at least rather  unusual, character of the Jews.k  F Besides, many countries associate themselves with a religion. The ArabC countires are all Mulsim countries (well mostly). Britain is mostly A Protestant, no? And wasn't it England that started the ProtestantrF church? The king wanted a divorce, I believe, and the pope said no, so! he started the Church of England.b  O > The conflict in Northern-Ireland wasn't between catholics and protestants, itmN > was between those loyal to england and those loyal to "northern ireland". ItP > was between a certain class of richer people and one of poorer people who wereM > shut out of certain portions of the economy. In a way, very similar to whatmO > had happened in Qubec when the "english" destroyed all french businesses andoL > installed their own english businesses and shut out french people from the> > business, relegating them to farming, doctors, religion etc.  ? Well, having different religions certainly couldn't have helpedl matters.  P > The "true" jews are just as arab as the palestinians.  Granted, Israel, with aO > large influx of people from many continents is now a mixture of races, but inaP > the end, they all live in the middle east, share weather, water, food etc withO > arabs.  It isn't like comparing tribal people from new guinee with people who5A > live in manhattan. Jews and Palestinians aren't THAT different.-  : I don't really see Jews as Arabs. They are quite distinct.  F > > Israel has made generous offers and the reward was *new* violence. > I > Israel cannot expect instant gratification and instant death to all the.[ > residual anger. There must really be a long term outlook with a realistic implementation:  > ""N > 	OK, we'll start working towards peace, but we realise that there is still aO > lot of people angry against each other and there will be lots of distrust foraL > a few generations to come, but we cannot let individual events prevent the > long term goal of peace. > ""  F They made a generous offer. And it was returned with violence. How can> you be nice to people like theses? Do you just let the bombersA continue? More and more? For generations and just get pounded andi$ "wait" for something good to happen?   > N > The problem with Israel is that the minute some bomb explodes, it ceases itsL > long term peace goal and reverts to its "lets retaliate with 10 times more4 > force", which only fuels the anger towards israel.  $ Sorry, but this is not always true.   = There have been plenty of good offers in the midst of all thee	 violence.   D So there should be no retaliation? What reasoning are you presentingB here: "Well, we (Pales.) tried to kill them all (the Israelis) andF look at what they are doing. They are doing some serious self-defense.> Boy that makes me angry! What nerve they have trying to defend+ themselves! They won't let me kill them!!!"n  ! Do you see what I am getting at? -  C (And why shouldn't Israel be angry about bombings?) When the recentfF wave of suicide bombings started, the retailiations were not swift andC severe (well, that's my recollection, anyway). But the bombers kept.D coming, and coming, and coming. At some point, Israel got fed up andD "re-occupied" towns from whence the terrorists emerged. (I love thatC term, "re-occupy".) Then, in the ensuing quiet, Israel slowly pullslE back. And the bombers resumed. So they re-re-occupied! And it goes on C ad nauseum. And if you don't retaliate strongly it does no good. It D just results in more attacks. Tell me, what started the whole recentF suicide bombings, it was an offer of land for peace!!! Think about it.C It's actually pretty incredible. It was an offer of land for peace,w, not a retaliation, that started Intifada II.  2 Israel offers land for peace: result, intifada II.F Israel re-occupies and goes after the terrorists: result, *much* fewer	 bombings.h  F There haven't been all that many attacks recently, now have there? ButF if Israel un-re-re-occupies, I guarantee they will resume, at least ifA they do it in the next few months, even if they make an even more   genrous offer of land for peace.   Let's try that again:o  F Israel offers land for peace. The Pales. return with new violence. AndC from this you conclude that Israel is not interested in peace? Huh?a  A When Iraq fired Scuds at Israel, the Israelis did not return firepB because the U.S. asked it not to. Can you imagine: Your country isF under direct attack and you sit there and do nothing? Does Israel ever get any credit for this? NO!  @ Please read some of the references that have been posted in this thread.t   > P > The "easy" way out is really a 2-3 generation "berlin wall" to isolate the two	 > people.r  
 Fine with me.t  D  Once schools/media/parents have stopped planting the seeds of angerN > into kids, they will grow up and eventually, the wall will serve no purpose.   Tell that to the Arabs.i  M > The other way is for the more mature country to simply state that they willrD > take some bombs/destruction but will not retaliate outside its ownP > territories.  Instead of killing the suicide bomber and granting him martyrdomP > in heaven with 5000 virgin women, they should make sure he doesn't die and putO > him naked in a glass prison in the middle of the city for everyone to see andbK > make fun of. Those would be terrorists would then see that they would noteB > achieve their goals and be ridiculed instead of being glorified.  = I'm sorry, maybe it's beacause I need more sleep, but I don'tc understand this paragraph.   > N > The current policies of retaliation have not worked. They just add more fuel > to the fire.  D Diplomacy did not work. The violence was in *repsonse* to diplomacy.8 You can't bargain with these people. See the references.  >  And the USA should have learned this lesson, but it seems notO > because they are about ready to add a hell of a lot of fire to the arab anger 9 > against the USA with their insistance on invading Iraq.a  C I'm still undecided on Iraq. As I see it, it's a big gamble whetherv= the U.S. attacks or not. Which choice is better, I can't say.s  @  > favored land for peace. Not any more! Can you blame them? TheD > > Palestinians have proved that they are not interested in peace.  > L > And Israel has proven that it is not interested in peace. Both are just as	 > guilty.t  A Israel offered them 95% of the territories for peace! Isarel madelD peace with Egypt and gave them back every bit of land they lost saveB the Gaza strip which they didn't want probably because they didn'tA want the Palestinians! Come on!!!!! And you tell me Israel is notnF interested in peace! They made peace with Egypt! They offered land forA peace to the Pales.! You can't tell me they are not interested inm% peace. That is completely ridiculous.a  E When have the Palestinians ever made an even reasonable offer? NEVER!t  F  If Israel widthdrew from Palestinian land and stopped retaliating, itL > woudln't take that long for the suicide bombers to stop. But it would takeE > longer than Israel currently has patience for, hence the continuing  > tit-for-tat attacks.  < How many innocent deaths should Israel have to put up with?   = They offerred to withdraw!!! That's what started intifada II.,
 Sheeeeesh.  D I assume you mean the West Bank and Gaza. I don't buy your statementF here. I don't believe it for a minute. I guarantee they would continue bombing.  A Have you read any of the references that John Smith and I posted?h  eJ > > I really doubt that such a UN force would indeed be neutral. There areE > > many Arab countries, hence votes at the UN. But there is only onerH > > Israel. If a truly neutral force could be enlisted, I am all for it. > P > As long as the UN force has a clear and well circumscribed mandate, it doesn'tN > matter who mans the UN forces. If some of the UN forces do not implement theP > UN mandate properly, the UN will see to it. The UN has the processes to handleK > grievances. Right now, the palestinian-israel tit-for-tat doesn't have ayaO > method to handle grievances because israel refuses to talk to palestine untiliN > the problem is resolved. But to resolve the problem, you need to talk first.  @ That was after Sharon. Ehud Barak offered a great deal. And theyF turned it down and responded with new horrible violence. What the hellE more do you want from the Israelis? If you don't like Sharon, you cantC blame the Intifada part II. This intifada is even stupider than the,D settlements. It has caused great amounts of grief for both sides and# no hope for any peace anytime soon.    Alan E. Feldmans   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 17:22:50 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303131722.430253e4@posting.google.com>e  g JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3E709D8C.6792EBE1@vl.videotron.ca>...: > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: [...]eF > > Israel has made generous offers and the reward was *new* violence. > I > Israel cannot expect instant gratification and instant death to all thes[ > residual anger. There must really be a long term outlook with a realistic implementation:  > ""N > 	OK, we'll start working towards peace, but we realise that there is still aO > lot of people angry against each other and there will be lots of distrust forUL > a few generations to come, but we cannot let individual events prevent the > long term goal of peace. > ""  D Again, you put the onus on Israel. Why don't you say the same to the Pales.?   tN > The problem with Israel is that the minute some bomb explodes, it ceases itsL > long term peace goal and reverts to its "lets retaliate with 10 times more4 > force", which only fuels the anger towards israel.  B The problem with the Palestinians is that as soon as you try to be? nice to them, they retaliate with millions of times more force,eA actually, negative millions of times because a friendly offer was A responded to with great violence. So you blame the Israelis for a B factor of 10, but are pefectly happy with the Palestinians doing a- factor of negative 1000000. That is not fair.d  F Don't you see how one-sided you are being here? You insist that Israel$ suffer all the deaths and then some.   [...]f  N > The current policies of retaliation have not worked. They just add more fuelL > to the fire. And the USA should have learned this lesson, but it seems notO > because they are about ready to add a hell of a lot of fire to the arab angerr9 > against the USA with their insistance on invading Iraq.l  F The current policies of the Pales. have not worked. They just add moreF fuel to the fire. Why don't you have any decent advice for the Pales.?  F Don't you see, you are always blaming the Israelis and always excusingA or ignoring the bad things from the Pales. Why the hell don't you-F suggest the Palestinians stop the violence?! Why don't you ask them to show some interest in peace?  @ You expect the Israelis to be patient, but not the Palestinians.  C You complain about violence only when it comes from Israel. You ask-? Israel to stop retaliating. But the Palestinians claim they areDA retaliating, but you don't ask them to stop what they claim to bee doing, retaliating.3  ? You make demands only of Israel. The other side can do the most<+ horrible things and you ask more of Israel.      > A > > favored land for peace. Not any more! Can you blame them? TheeD > > Palestinians have proved that they are not interested in peace.  > L > And Israel has proven that it is not interested in peace. Both are just asO > guilty. If Israel widthdrew from Palestinian land and stopped retaliating, ittL > woudln't take that long for the suicide bombers to stop. But it would takeE > longer than Israel currently has patience for, hence the continuing  > tit-for-tat attacks.  C Palestinians have shown that they are not interested in peace. THEY 1 started Intifada II in response to a peace offer!r   > J > > I really doubt that such a UN force would indeed be neutral. There areE > > many Arab countries, hence votes at the UN. But there is only onenH > > Israel. If a truly neutral force could be enlisted, I am all for it. > P > As long as the UN force has a clear and well circumscribed mandate, it doesn'tN > matter who mans the UN forces. If some of the UN forces do not implement theP > UN mandate properly, the UN will see to it. The UN has the processes to handleK > grievances. Right now, the palestinian-israel tit-for-tat doesn't have ay O > method to handle grievances because israel refuses to talk to palestine untileN > the problem is resolved. But to resolve the problem, you need to talk first.  - THEY DID TALK AND THE RESULT WAS INTIFADA II.s   Alan E. FeldmanC   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 17:59:41 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303131759.1824865e@posting.google.com>c  g JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3E709D8C.6792EBE1@vl.videotron.ca>...s > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:H > > I was pointing out that he was bashing the Jews wihtout even knowingA > > some basic facts of the situation. Seems pretty unfair to me.S > H > I don't know who the "he" is. But please, please, understand that whenG > discussing Palestine vs Israel, most westerners think of nations, not U > religions. It is wrong to state that anyone who criticises Israel is blasting jews.o > M > It is Israel that insists on associating country with religion, the rest of0N > the world sees israel as a country only. I don't care whether there are jews > or mormons in Israel.8  E But the whole point of Israel is the Jewish people, both for identityt and for "never again".   [...]p > F > > Israel has made generous offers and the reward was *new* violence. > I > Israel cannot expect instant gratification and instant death to all thel > residual anger.     C Neither can the Palestinians expect the Jews to just sit and take a 	 pounding.-    K > There must really be a long term outlook with a realistic implementation:c > ""N > 	OK, we'll start working towards peace, but we realise that there is still aO > lot of people angry against each other and there will be lots of distrust foriL > a few generations to come, but we cannot let individual events prevent the > long term goal of peace. > "" >  [...]A  N > The current policies of retaliation have not worked. They just add more fuel  B The current policies are the result of numerous failed attempts byC Israel to achieve a real peace. These attempts were thwarted by the0C Palestinians. It is the offers of peace that have not worked. Look, D you can offer peace, which in this case has proved time and again toD be a complete failure. When in addition to being a complete failure,@ the result is inifada II, what do you do? Offer peace again? The5 biggest peace offer is what started the current mess!   C Just sit there and take a pounding? No one would expect this of anya other place.  @ Then there is vigorous self-defense. It is the only way that hasA reduced violence. Can you state a single success as a result of a " peace offer with the Palestinians?  D There is just no hope with these people. You make a great offer, andC they come at you with the bombers. Their policies that have failed. ? Yeah, how come you don't criticize their policies? Are they notoC responsible for anything at all? You put all the blame on one side.a  E Before intifada II we had peace offers and restraint. IT DIDN'T WORK.uC There were a large number of people in favor of land for peace. DidsB the Pales. take advantage of this? NO! They actually thumbed theirD noses at the peace people and this turned them all into hawks and weB got Sharon about whose policies you now complain. Could it be thatF Sharon has correctly realized that there is no hope dealing with these7 people and the you can't do better than the status quo?   > If you don't like Sharon's policies, than you should blame theB Palestinians for bringing us intifada II, because that is what got Sharon elected.-  A You complain the Israeli retaliations are too much. But even withrC them, we still got another recent bombing. Had the "re-occupations"o< been any less, there would be more bombings in the news now.  L > to the fire. And the USA should have learned this lesson, but it seems notO > because they are about ready to add a hell of a lot of fire to the arab anger 9 > against the USA with their insistance on invading Iraq.a > A > > favored land for peace. Not any more! Can you blame them? ThegD > > Palestinians have proved that they are not interested in peace.  > L > And Israel has proven that it is not interested in peace. Both are just asO > guilty. If Israel widthdrew from Palestinian land and stopped retaliating, it'L > woudln't take that long for the suicide bombers to stop. But it would take  	 nonsense.h  E > longer than Israel currently has patience for, hence the continuingh > tit-for-tat attacks.  D Palestinians have proven that they are not interested in peace. BothD are guilty of *some* wrongdoings. If Pales. accepted the Barak offer; and stopped the violence, it wouldn't take long for Israeli:F retaliations to stop. In fact, it would take ZERO SECONDS. But that isE not enough for the Palestinians. Nothing but the complete destructionnF of Israel is enough for them. (See the slide show in slide reference I7 posted recently for supporting evidence of this claim.)e     Alan E. Feldmant   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 01:58:20 GMTi# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>a: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsH Message-ID: <0Haca.22386$a41.14971@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  ; "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messagen7 news:b096a4ee.0303131620.664fbe5c@posting.google.com...t7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagen. news:<XLidnQe3OeYySu2jXTWcqw@metrocast.net>...? > > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messagen; > > news:b096a4ee.0303121910.6f366ecc@posting.google.com...h > >e > > ...y > > 1 > > > But Bill, you're lightning quick to condemnt > >r= > > You've hardly shown yourself to be a sufficiently neutralp participant to be A > > qualified even to post thoughtful assessments, let alone such 
 hyperbolicE > > garbage.  I haven't been 'quick' to condemn anything, and in fact 	 until theoF > > aftermath of the Rabin assassination was relatively sympathetic to Israel.e >gD > You said the Israelis took the Palestinians homes in 1948 and thatF > justified any action by the Pales. That's hardly sympathetic. You've4 > been bashing the Israelis pretty hard as I recall. >oC > Have you read any of the references that John Smith and I posted?I >  > >r > >  when you have shown thateD > > > you didn't even know how the boundaries of Israel have changed overF > > > the years. You thought Israel started the Yom Kippur war (1973). > >eA > > The fact that I chose to embark on a tangential discussion ofs history withE > > someone who appears to be at least equally uninformed has no real 	 relevancevB > > to my opinions about the situation since Rabin's murder, which	 have beensE > > formed through fairly close attention to the on-going activities.  The0 >1C > I have not made blatant big errors like you have. I at least haveR someC > basic knowledge of things like how the boundaries changed and whoZ > attacked whom. >eC > > particular statement you're referring to above was "IIRC Israel6 started bothB > > the 1967 and the 1973 wars":  the point (and entire historical
 sub-topic)F > > was, as noted, a tangential one, I qualified my statement suitably (byaF > > prefacing it with 'IIRC'), and in fact Israel *did* start the 1967	 war - butu >t> > Yes, the Israelis did a pre-emptive strike. But that doesn't	 guaranteemF > the blame. Did the Arabs not choke off the port of Aqaba? Isn't that6 > like a blockade? And isn't a blockade an act of war?  A Just a minor point, the port was Eilat, not Aqaba. And it was thegF Straits of Tiran which were blockaded, which is the only exit from the9 Gulf of Aqaba (on which Eilat is located) to the Red Sea.s  C The blockade cut off all supply of oil to Israel from its principalhA supplier, Iran (this was the age of the Shah). People forget thateE Egypt controlled the Suez Canal then and no shipping bound for IsraelnE was permitted to transit the canal. Also recall that this was when noeD oil was exported from the North Sea, or indeed anywhere in Europe toA Israel (not even sure if there is any today). So any oil reachinghB Israel had to be shipped around the Cape of Good Hope and then viaF Gibralter into the Mediterranean. There was insufficient oil stored in@ Israel, so by the time any tankers were re-routed via Gibralter,> Israel would have run out of oil. and been ripe for an attack.  A Yes Eilat was blockaded, and yes, a blockade is an act of war andw causus belli for retaliation.n  C But it wasn't the blockade alone - there was abundant evidence thatsA the Arab nations surrounding Israel were positioning materiel andhF troops in preparation for an attack. Recall that Nasseer kicked the UND peacekeepers out of the Sinai Desert in order to pre-position troopsF along the Israeli border. Syria was moving heavy concentrations of men# and equipment to the Golan Heights.e  E http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf6.html is a source that doesW? set the record straight. But if you don't believe this 'biased'aF source, I suggest that one haul out the microfiche of the NY Times, orD The Times of London, or any other reputable newspaper of the era, orE check the debates in the UN record. One will find ample corroboration., of the facts on the aforementioned web site.    @ There are three other pertinent facts mentioned on that web site; above, which can be corroborated in other later (post 1968).D publications and are very germaine to the discussions that have been taking place here:  D a) "Prime Minister Levi Eshkol sent a message to King Hussein sayingD Israel would not attack Jordan unless he initiated hostilities. WhenB Jordanian radar picked up a cluster of planes flying from Egypt toF Israel, and the Egyptians convinced Hussein the planes were theirs, heE then ordered the shelling of West Jerusalem. It turned out the planeseB were Israel's, and were returning from destroying the Egyptian air@ force on the ground. Meanwhile, Syrian and Iraqi troops attacked Israel's northern frontier.r  ? Had Jordan not attacked, the status of Jerusalem would not havetD changed during the course of the war. Once the city came under fire,? however, Israel needed to defend it, and, in doing so, took the 3 opportunity to unify its capital once and for all."e  C And in order to create a decent defensive perimeter, once attacked,tD the Israeli's pushed the Jordanian Army back across to the East BankD of the Jordan River. Any military person would call this a justifiedF measure for defensive reasons. Thus Israel came into possession of the
 West Bank.    B b) "By the end of the war, Israel had captured enough territory toB more than triple the size of the area it controlled, from 8,000 toC 26,000 square miles. The victory enabled Israel to unify Jerusalem. B Israeli forces had also captured the Sinai, the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.e  C Israel's leaders fully expected to negotiate a peace agreement withaF their neighbors that would involve some territorial compromise. Almost; immediately after the war, Israel's leaders expressed their F willingness to negotiate a return of at least some of the territories.A Israel subsequently returned all of the Sinai to Egypt, territoryiC claimed by Jordan was returned to the Hashemite Kingdom, and nearlyfC all of the Gaza Strip and more than 40 percent of the West Bank wasiA given to the Palestinians to establish the Palestinian Authority.a  ? To date, approximately 93 percent of the territories won in thelB defensive war have been given by Israel to its Arab neighbors as aA result of negotiations. This demonstrates Israel's willingness tor trade land for peace."  E Note that territory claimed by Jordan was returned. But the West bank @ was not returned because a) Jordan didn't want it, and b) IsraelB wanted to keep small parts of it, princpally Jeruslaem and a smallA amount of the surrounding area. So if the former 'owner', Jordan, E didn't want it, and the current 'holder' held it, whose land is it? IrE know that this could open yet another debate, but it illustrates somec- of the difficulties in resolving the problem.t    E c) "After Jordan launched its attack on June 5, approximately 325,000tA Palestinians living in the West Bank fled.21 These were Jordanian F citizens who moved from one part of what they considered their countryB to another, primarily to avoid being caught in the cross fire of a war.  A A Palestinian refugee who was an administrator in a UNRWA camp infB Jericho said Arab politicians had spread rumors in the camp. "TheyD said all the young people would be killed. People heard on the radioD that this is not the end, only the beginning, so they think maybe it4 will be a long war and they want to be in Jordan."22  D Some Palestinians who left preferred to live in an Arab state ratherF than under Israeli military rule. Members of various PLO factions fled@ to avoid capture by the Israelis. Nils-Gran Gussing, the personC appointed by the UN Secretary-General to investigate the situation,eA found that many Arabs also feared they would no longer be able top3 receive money from family members working abroad.23a  < Israeli forces ordered a handful of Palestinians to move forE "strategic and security reasons." In some cases, they were allowed tokD return in a few days, in others Israel offered to help them resettle elsewhere.24  E Israel now ruled more than three-quarters of a million Palestinians - D most of whom were hostile to the government. Nevertheless, more thanB 9,000 Palestinian families were reunited in 1967. Ultimately, more3 than 60,000 Palestinians were allowed to return.25"9    F As to point c), in the battle between Jordan and Israel, it was JordanD which initiated the attack, thereby placing its citizens in the West/ Bank at risk. No attack by Jordan, no refugees.e  C Also to place the 60,000 Palestinians who were allowed to return inbB context, that figure is for 1968 only. Many tens of thousands moreD have since returned to the West Bank in the intervening years. Check$ other publications for confirmation.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 02:13:26 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>': Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsG Message-ID: <aVaca.22479$a41.3812@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messaget, news:QumcnbP5KJHpZu2jXTWcqw@metrocast.net... >h0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageD > news:dI3ca.113469$em1.3514@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... >s > ...  >t0 >   From the Israeli perspective the war betweenF > > Muslims/Arabs and the Jews was not for control of Muslim/Arab land (nD > > for the Jews had been legally given the land by the UN),  nor to> > > ensure that 'Palestinians' were enslaved or exiled, nor to exterminateoB > > the Muslims - it was a war of physical survival of each jewish person,eF > > man, woman, and child. To say otherwise is to be a stooge of false! > > propaganda and a revisionist.I >eA > You're setting up straw men again.  At least *I* don't rememberr anyoneC > stating that the Israeli perspective was something different fromt what you@ > describe - just that the perspective of others definitely was.  E Not straw men Bill. Those were among the reasons given by Arab/Muslimu@ leaders to their people. And repeated by apologists for the PLO,7 Hamas, and other 'independent' and state organizations.a      E > > The Jewish people there did not want a war, did not want to kill,c butnD > > were forced into taking actions in self-defense to prevent their > > extermination. >y= > I think you're conveniently ignoring some of the atrocitiess perpetrated byB > people like the Irgun and the Stern gang here, and even a few by IsraelE > itself.  One can justify them no more, or less, than the actions ofa > Palestinian extremists today.   A The actions of the Stern gang, etc.. were principally against the F British, and only against Arabs when Jewish homes and settlements wereB attacked. I know that there were a few instances when that was not@ totally the case vis. the Arabs, but in the context of the totalD number of attacks/defensive engagements, the ratio is overwhelminglyE in in favor of defensive engagements. And those attacks can mostly bee$ classified as pre-emptive in nature.     >n9 >  The world has continued to pillory them since 1948 for ? > > the fact that they were successful at defending themselves.r > E > Another gross generalization.  *I* certainly never 'pilloried' themt fornD > that:  I just pillory them for having had peace within their grasp and thenC > walking away from it when Rabin was so conveniently assassinated,a and fornC > the subsequent state-sponsored repression (including some actions.	 appearing @ > to qualify as atrocities, though since they did not allow U.N. observers in6 > to evaluate them that's subject to possible debate).    @ Rabin's assassination was not 'convenient' for anyone except theC Israeli religious zealots and the PLO and Hamas terrorists. In someI? ways they all are the same to me. For all the other millions ofcF people, Jews, Muslims, Arabs, Christians, who live in the area, it was2 a tragic event that has set back peace many years.  E I would suggest to you that it was the PLO which took the opportunityfA to walk away further and faster. Read about it. Arafat and/or hisoC factotums have had many moderate Palestinian leaders killed becauseeF they have criticized his failure to adhere to the peace process. TheseC were people who wanted an end to uncertainty. But for Arafat, it is F indeed the uncertainty that has kept him in power. He has proven to beF an ineffectual nation builder - he's the biggest handicap to the peace process and his people.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:03:14 -0400i0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E713845.54213F37@vl.videotron.ca>    "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:G > But the whole point of Israel is the Jewish people, both for identity  > and for "never again".  L NO NO NO. If Israel want to be recognised as a country with agreed upon safeJ political boundaries and nobody constantly debating those boundaries, thenN Israel has to behave as a country and not a religion. It shouldn't matter what religion its citizens are.  ' Israel isn't a church, it is a country.e  E > Neither can the Palestinians expect the Jews to just sit and take al > pounding.>  M Ahh, but Israel plays to the terrorists hands. The reason the terrorists blownI bombs is exactly because they know that Israel will retaliate with tanks,kM fighters, destroys homes , kills civilians etc and that makes Israel look bad : because those actions are officially sanctioned by Israel.  N If Israel really did stay there and take the beating without any reaction, theM terrorists wouldn't get any gratification and would stop that tactic. I know, J easier to say than to do, but perhaps it is the only way to end the cycle.H (But that doesn't mean that Israel can't catch those suicide bombers the? minute they walk into Israel territory and prosecute/jail them.n  ? > Palestinians. It is the offers of peace that have not worked."  L Nop, it is the fact that the parties expect the peace to be acheieved BEFOREN the peace treaty is signed (eg: as a precondition of signing the treaty: peaceM must first happen, but peace can't happen until agreement is recahed/signed).tN That is what is wrong. Israel finds excuses to end negotiations whenever angry# terrorists blow up some restaurant.a  E > Just sit there and take a pounding? No one would expect this of anyn > other place.  M No other place has been at "war" for thousands of years. You really do need asL totally new outlook to end that cycle, and you need the patience to let thatM peace take root. It isn't going to happen overnight. This isn't war between 2tI countries, it is hatred between 2 people. That doesn't go away overnight.e  J I don't know whether the palestinian goverment controls the terrorists, orL whether it doesn't have the power to control them, or whether any attempt to? control them would result in Arafat being murdered/ousted/etc. h  B > Then there is vigorous self-defense. It is the only way that has > reduced violence.   M Wrong. The vigorous self-defence is exactly what fuels the hatred which fuelswH palestinians wearing C4 around their belts and taking a final pizza in a israel restaurant.  1 > Can you state a single success as a result of ai$ > peace offer with the Palestinians?  L If you sew seeds and give up after a day or two because you haven't seen anyJ sprouts come out, you'll never succeed. You need patience. And during thatG time, you need to continue to take some beating for the long term good.s  M And for that, you need a leader who has enough leadership and self confidencerK to convince the israeli people that they'll need to take some beating untileL opeace takes root and that it is important to not retaliate so the cycle canA stop long enough for peace to take root. Not easyly done, i know.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 02:36:14 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>i: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsH Message-ID: <yebca.22584$a41.12442@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageh, news:l0mdnXaYbZjAZO2jXTWcpw@metrocast.net... >e0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageB > news:j1Jba.5934$a41.3888@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... > >h' > > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"e< > > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message, > > news:3E6F1D02.3040903@nospamn.sun.com... >r > ...t > C > > > No but they helped create an environment where extremists arewB > > > able to convince young suicide bombers that this is the only  > > > sensible course of action. > > > D > > > Gaza is an ideal environemt for extermists to flourish, Israel> > > > is just as responsible for the conditions in Gaza as the > > > Palestinian Authority. > >  > >n > > Andrew,m > >F? > > That's pretty disingenuous of you to say that. Where is theo personalB > > responsibility of the individuals, their parents, their school system, = > > their political leaders? Moderates within the Palestiniana	 community19 > > are routinely assassinated by Palestinian extremists.i >eB > Given your usual fairly high standard of analytical ability, I'm	 beginningfA > to suspect that this subject is a rather emotional one for you.e >iB > There's nothing disingenuous about Andrew's statement.  The fact
 that otherD > influences, even important ones, may *also* exist is irrelevant to theoD > contention that *both* Israel and the Palestinian Authority have a greatgE > deal of responsibility for the problems of (and extremism in) Gaza.w >  > ...t >gD > > I would suggest that the vast majority of the 'rage' you ascribe to > > people in Gaza >o@ > Are you suggesting by the use of single quotes above that they *aren't*' > extremely unhappy with the situation?k >.4 > > ought to be directed at the government of Egypt. >oC > You can suggest this to them, but somehow I suspect you won't get 	 very far:tE > better to concentrate on how *they* view the situation and what can  be done  > about it.e >e >   I am@ > > not 100% sure of all the drawing of lines on the map between IsraelE > > and Gaza but let's just call it that there's a narrow buffer zonea atE > > the border.For all practical purposes Gaza is the same size as ite ever@ > > was and nobody in Gaza who was there in 1968 or 1973 need beB > > considered a refugee form their home, ie. the land under their home iso > > still part of Gaza.u > ? > Unfortunately, this land is now subject to frequent and oftene somewhatF > indiscriminate incursions by Israeli tanks, gunships, and missiles - whichhE > of course have created a new class of refugees of the survivors whom untileC > recently had homes there.  And as part of this process Israel hasm left theC > civil authorities there in tatters, which doesn't exactly help anr alreadyr > unstable situation.r >i > ...v >eF > > Now let's go to a bit of 20th century European history. At the end ofD > > WWII Germany lost territory permanently - Danzig/Gdansk and EastF > > Prussia, now part of Poland, and what of Alsace-Lorraine? We don't see B > > Germans today chomping at the bit to goosestep back into those areas. >t? > Well, in your own words, 'that was then' - and the people whoe
 *remained* insA > the conquered areas became citizens of the states that acquiredb them.a > D > And, of course, no longer do you see the Arab states demanding the	 return ofaF > the Occupied Territories (let alone Israel proper) either.  What you see isE > Arab states supporting the Palestinians' desire that the occupation  (whichC > is not 'then', but is very definitely still 'now') finally cease: 	 if Israel F > isn't going to make them Israeli citizens (the approach taken in theE > European areas you describe above), then 35+ years of occupation isn enough -A > Israel should start the process of giving them the land to make 	 their own A > state if the countries it used to belong to don't want it back.b > D > Your comments in this sub-thread about the Palestinian issue don't begin toE > have the relevance that you tend display with so many other topics,o andmD > again I suggest that this may be because you're letting your heart rather8 > than your head compose their content.  You clearly are well-acquainted withE > many aspects of the situation and have something to contribute, butr you'llC > make far more effective contributions if you filter them yourselfe beforeE > posting them so that the conversation can spend most of its time on  subjects= > more directly relevant to *today's* situation in that area.      Bill,   > Do you think that the Israeli's *want* to go and cause harm toE Palestinian families and society? Of course you don't. Israel wants a @ stable, peaceful neighbor - one it can conduct trade with to theE advantage of all. Israeli's don't want their kids to have to fight orvF search people in the streets or hunt bombers. Nor do the vast majority6 of Palestinians want to live under Israeli occupation.  E But look at it a bit differently for a moment - suppose there were nomD suicide bombings for a couple months, suppose there were no killingsB of Israeli soldiers or civilians on the roads - would there be theD violence you ascribe to Israel? Not likely. Suppose that Arafat wereD really serious and said that any Palestinian breaches the peace withD Israel would be in huge trouble with the PA (Palestinian Authority),B and he backed that up with real action. What would happen next, he! asked, leaving the question open.f    D Did you know that yesterday there was a public ceremony held in GazaE to distribute money sent by Saddam Hussein to the families of suicide.B bombers? And that the recipients of the money had to be vetted andE approved by the PA, run by Arafat? Bet you didn't.  Is Arafat serioustF about peace? Far less so than you ascribe to the government of Israel.  E My bet: If Arafat and his cronies no longer controlled the PA and wast5 run by moderates - you'd see swift progress on peace.'    F See another post from me today in this thread for other comments which8 I believe address some of the concerns you raised above.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 19:51:58 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303131951.607004f8@posting.google.com>l  f bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<b4q6cg$22393v$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>...> > In article <b096a4ee.0303121918.fa66e7e@posting.google.com>,3 > 	spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:sj > > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message news:<b4m808$21j2d8$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>...B > >> In article <b096a4ee.0303111752.1f55a944@posting.google.com>,6 > >> 	spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > >> > .H > >> > You neglect the destruction of Jewish temples in Jerusalem by theM > >> > Arabs. You probably neglect a lot more. We really need a more completeo > >> > picture here. > >> l > >> We certainly do.h > >> oM > >> The last "Jewish Temple" in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans arounde > >> 70 AD.  > >> s	 > >> billo > > 8 > > I was referring to regular synagogues in Jerusalem.  > H > Oh, I was pretty sure that was what you meant.  But sunagogues are not% > in any sense of the word "temples".y  = Well, I've always heard them referred to variously as temple,u4 synagogue, and shul. Temple can have either meaning.   > J > >                                                      Not "the" Temple. >  > > > In Judaism, there is was and always will be only one Temple. > F > The biggest cause of conflict is mis-understanding.  If the educatedG > people of the world know so little about the Jews they associate withsD > on a daily basis how can anyone expect ignorant, uneducated peopleD > in backwards countries like Palestine to be any better?  (The sameF > was true of Christians in the first few centuries.  John 6:53-57 wasD > long thought by non-Christians to be an advocation of canabalism.) > J > > I read an ad years ago explaining how when Arabs ruled Jerusalem, theyG > > didn't allow Jewish or Christian worship. When Israel rules it, allWH > > religions are respected. My memory of it is a little fuzzy, but this# > > was pretty much the jist of it., > F > See, there it is again.   Don't you perhaps mean Moslems rather thanF > Arabs?  There are Christian (and very likely Jewish) Arabs.  This is  E Perhaps I should have said Moslems. Perhaps not. I don't remember thee ad well enough.t   Jewish Arabs? Fascinating.  F > the same thinking that caused people with slanted eyes to be roundedD > up during WWII and caused attacks on people named Abdul after 9-118 > even though they were natural born American citizens.  > G > The worst weapon in the world isn't nuclear, it is ignorance.  It cane3 > be easily turned on the most innocent of victims.s >  > bill   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 20:08:22 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0303132008.28ec95d9@posting.google.com>   d "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<XLidnQe3OeYySu2jXTWcqw@metrocast.net>...= > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messaged9 > news:b096a4ee.0303121910.6f366ecc@posting.google.com...i >  > ...P > / > > But Bill, you're lightning quick to condemns > M > You've hardly shown yourself to be a sufficiently neutral participant to be J > qualified even to post thoughtful assessments, let alone such hyperbolicM > garbage.  I haven't been 'quick' to condemn anything, and in fact until theb  D Well, you were justifying current Pales. violence by what Israel did< in 1948 "stealing there homes" as you put it. I'd say that's condemnation of Israel.r  F And I'm sorry, if you have to ask about major territorial changes overD the years, and who started what wars, well, that means you're likely= playing fast and loose with the facts and shouldn't really be  criticizing in this topic.  L > aftermath of the Rabin assassination was relatively sympathetic to Israel.  ? I'm glad to hear that, but I don't see how that jives with yourhF justifying the Intifada saying that the Pales. were just trying to get& their homes back from the 1948 events.   >  >  when you have shown thatkG > > you didn't even know how the boundaries of Israel have changed overtD > > the years. You thought Israel started the Yom Kippur war (1973). > L > The fact that I chose to embark on a tangential discussion of history withM > someone who appears to be at least equally uninformed has no real relevanceuJ > to my opinions about the situation since Rabin's murder, which have beenH > formed through fairly close attention to the on-going activities.  TheN > particular statement you're referring to above was "IIRC Israel started bothK > the 1967 and the 1973 wars":  the point (and entire historical sub-topic)nH > was, as noted, a tangential one, I qualified my statement suitably (byN > prefacing it with 'IIRC'), and in fact Israel *did* start the 1967 war - but  C But one could make a good case that it was Arab moves that prompted F it. Some claim that Israel's preemption was justified. I can't believeD anyone thought Israel started the 1973 war. It started on one of, if not the, holiest days for Jews.   K > in any event I'm afraid that your continuing excursion down this tangent,-H > though possibly a learning opportunity for us both, isn't particularlyK > germane to the discussion of the situation *today* which was the original  > basis of the sub-topic.3  C But you justified today's actions on what you perceived happened inoB 1948! A generous peace offer was returned by violence that has set1 back relations between the two sides for decades.o   >  >  YouJ > > believe Arafat. If even some of what you claim is true, your quicknessI > > to attack based on little, and sometimes, incorrect knowledge doesn'ta > > help your credibility any. > B > As I've said in other contexts, I don't give a flying fuck aboutL > credibility:  I expect any people I might care about communicating with toM > judge both information and the people who present it for themselves, ratheri$ > than be susceptible to persuasion. > J > While (as I've also said before) I appreciate your sincerity, I'm afraid  	 thank youh  E > that I find your own 'credibility' (since you seem to consider that N > significant) to be fairly low and your objectivity on the matter of Israel's  1 Well, you said you didn't care about credibility.a  K > current behavior just about nil.  Unless something happens to change that   = A peace offer was made and the other side when ballistic withn@ violence! How can any unbiased person judge that in favor of the Palestinians? I mean, come on!  B I was somewhat symphathetic to the Palestinians before the currentD Intifada. But that and the new things I've learned recently makes me think less and less of them.  B > opinion, I don't think I'll continue this conversation with you. >  > - bill  A I didn't jump in this to defend everything Israel has done. I was E simply upset by what looked to me like unjustified harsh criticism ofeC Israel and endless overlooking and forgiving of what the Arabs havee( done. And I said I wan't a good debater.   Alan E. Feldmanh   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:53:20 -0400i0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: RWMBX problem?o/ Message-ID: <3E70EFB1.76AE29A6@vl.videotron.ca>f   Steve Spires wrote: I >> 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    5    11576   0 00:00:11.05      5240sF > So, is this something I should look at, or is it just related to anyH > quotas associated with my account relevant to the PIPE command itself?   is "steves" your process ?  L It means that steves is trying to wrote to a mailbox faster than the data inN that mailbox is being read. RWMBS is essentially a sign that the mailbox driveG has sent the equivalent of an "X-OFF" to the steves process because the  mailbox buffer is full.i  L It it comes out of RWBMX, then it isn't an issue. If it sticks in that stateV forever, then it means that nobody is reading teh data you are writing to the mailbox.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:59:12 -0000i; From: "Mark Itzcovitz" <mark.itzcovitz@nospam.ntlworld.com>b Subject: Re: RWMBX problem?pA Message-ID: <Ra7ca.9813$EA6.1636463@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>w  L I would think it is perfectly normal to catch the process in a read/write on mailbox state, when using pipe.h   I get the same thing.u  8 "Steve Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com> wrote in message? news:91947A84607D9D48B8E674A5FAB54DA685444A@tahiti.tinuk.com...i Hi,   H Looking at one of the systems we have out there, I noticed the following 'issue';  ' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rw F 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    3    11441   0 00:00:11.04      5240 76' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwtF 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    5    11576   0 00:00:11.05      5240 76' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwt' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matchedt' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwe' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matched ' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rw ' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matchedv' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwpF 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    3    12116   0 00:00:11.09      5240 76' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rweF 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    3    12251   0 00:00:11.11      5240 76' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwi' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matcheda' Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rweF 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    5    12521   0 00:00:11.15      5240 76  D So, is this something I should look at, or is it just related to anyF quotas associated with my account relevant to the PIPE command itself?   Steve Spires Technical Consultant Torex Health [T] +44 (0) 1295 274200E [F] +44 (0) 1295 275131n
 www.torex.coml   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:23:06 +1030h% From: Jeremy Begg <jeremy@vsm.com.au>n Subject: Re: RWMBX problem?p* Message-ID: <3E714412.4173D377@vsm.com.au>   Steve,  M You don't say what version of VMS you're running, but if you want to look for I processes in a resource wait state you might like to try this instead ...A      $ show system/state=rw*   	Jeremy Begg   Steve Spires wrote:t >  > Hi,r > J > Looking at one of the systems we have out there, I noticed the following
 > 'issue'; > ) > Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwoH > 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    3    11441   0 00:00:11.04      5240 > 76) > Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwsH > 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    5    11576   0 00:00:11.05      5240 > 76) > Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rw ) > %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matchedd) > Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwf) > %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matched ) > Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwu) > %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matched ) > Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwdH > 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    3    12116   0 00:00:11.09      5240 > 76) > Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwgH > 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    3    12251   0 00:00:11.11      5240 > 76) > Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rws) > %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matchede) > Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwuH > 000F1206 steves          RWMBX    5    12521   0 00:00:11.15      5240 > 76 > F > So, is this something I should look at, or is it just related to anyH > quotas associated with my account relevant to the PIPE command itself? >  > Steve Spires > Technical Consultant > Torex Health > [T] +44 (0) 1295 274200n > [F] +44 (0) 1295 275131e > www.torex.como   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:09:13 GMTo) From: bob smith <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>,Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interda / Message-ID: <3E710F9A.1000508@bellatlantic.net>k   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:: > In article <i1ur6vcfiefoqdul2ild7b5mpfvbp0g5mu@4ax.com>, >    TLH 858 <@.> wrote: > ' >>jmfbahciv@aol.com seems to have said:e >> >>@ >>>I never certified DECnet through the DN87.  That hardware ranB >>>stuff that could run without a gazillion instructions/character. >>>stroke (again, only my uneducated opinion). >> >>I did the certification. >  > 4 > <grin>  Be careful, you'll get to do the next one. > @ > I'm positive that I never put the name, TLH 858 <@., in my? > certification plan.  I'm positive because there was no way in ? > hell that RUNOFF could generate those funny characters, usinga > my fingers and my terminal.t > ? > You didn't certify DECnet through the DN87, unless you hackedi= > the 87 to look like a DECnet node to fool the certifiers...b? > [emoticon hastily adds]but I don't wanna know about it if yout? > did.  That is a job that I fully expect come back and bite mer. > in the ass; so ignorance is the best policy. > A > And I have no idea who you are :-).  [emoticon thinks a little]I2 > Perhaps I don't wanna know that either.  ;-))))) >  > /BAH > ) > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. A I keep thinking it is Dave McClure posting under different names.e but I could be wrong bobr   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:09:57 GMTv) From: bob smith <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> Y Subject: Re: SIMH 2.10-4 released: major bug fixes to PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX, PDP-15, Interdal- Message-ID: <3E710FC7.90203@bellatlantic.net>n   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:: > In article <i1ur6vcfiefoqdul2ild7b5mpfvbp0g5mu@4ax.com>, >    TLH 858 <@.> wrote: > ' >>jmfbahciv@aol.com seems to have said:e >> >>@ >>>I never certified DECnet through the DN87.  That hardware ranB >>>stuff that could run without a gazillion instructions/character. >>>stroke (again, only my uneducated opinion). >> >>I did the certification. >  > 4 > <grin>  Be careful, you'll get to do the next one. > @ > I'm positive that I never put the name, TLH 858 <@., in my? > certification plan.  I'm positive because there was no way ind? > hell that RUNOFF could generate those funny characters, usings > my fingers and my terminal.e > ? > You didn't certify DECnet through the DN87, unless you hacked = > the 87 to look like a DECnet node to fool the certifiers... ? > [emoticon hastily adds]but I don't wanna know about it if yous? > did.  That is a job that I fully expect come back and bite men. > in the ass; so ignorance is the best policy. > A > And I have no idea who you are :-).  [emoticon thinks a little]e2 > Perhaps I don't wanna know that either.  ;-))))) >  > /BAH > ) > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.e. Could be Rick Merrill, he might post like that ahem   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:06:59 GMT ) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>a Subject: Re: unixn' Message-ID: <3E70F286.706AE7A5@ev1.net>s   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > 3 >      [snip...]        [snip...]         [snip...]r >'C > I used some precious energy yesterday and walked into a Best Buy.gA > I read the packaging of Red Hat and something called SUSE (WETHrC > that stands for).  Not one mention of source.  Support was tickedd> > off for the pro packages (prices were $250+- for Red Hat andA > $100- for the SUSE).  Also note that there were exactly one boxg@ > of each on the shelves and that was it for Unix.  Not a singleB > demo was running Unix.  Not a single system on display mentioned= > a Unix option.  Once again I tried to access some suggestedtB > web site, and it crashed.  I thought I'd taken my den mother hat4 > off; I forgot to check if it was welded to my ass. >l9 IMHO you should *not* buy a Linux CDROM in a plastic wrapd> package. I believe there are *many* who read this group...that@ would download the Linux you decide you want, burn it on a CD-R,= and send it to you. Saving the $100 to $250 dollars *has* to s appeal to the Dutch in you...t > C > In addition, I think I finally saw one of HT-TVs.  Not impressed.lF > I was more impressed by what you guys think you need in screen size. > B And you gals try to tell us guys that "size doesn't matter". Well,B it matters to us!!! I have a friend who won't use anything smaller% than a 19" screen with his computers.  > D > I also checked out the terminals...aw damn...now I forgot the techH > term.  The terminal style that I can lift with one hand, everything isB > flat, and <gasp> the screen doesn't seem to flicker.  I can alsoE > see the screen at a 75 degree angle.  They seem to good to be true.iE > What's wrong with them?  Also I got senior fart moment when I askedl- > the child if I could hook one up to my 386.s > ? Are you talking about the flat-screen LCD monitors??? They havel@ some great ones these days...but they are on the expensive side.   --  ? +-------------------------------------------------------------+u? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |p? +-------------------------------------------------------------+u   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:10:37 GMTu) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>r Subject: Re: unixu' Message-ID: <3E70F35F.3AC266F0@ev1.net>r   Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:e >   > On Thu, 13 Mar 03 12:48:45 GMT > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > ) > JC> (prices were $250+- for Red Hat andn > JC> $100- for the SUSE)k > L >         Ouch! You want to experiment and try a few things I suspect, which* > those sorts of prices rather discourage. > J >         Look at http://www.cheapbytes.com for some more realistic pricesL > for open source on CD. AFAICT these people don't kick back anything to theK > development effort (or do much apart from burn and ship CDs very cheaply)oE > so once you have settled on something you might switch to an updateo$ > subscription or similar that does. > > Also, there are Linux CDROM's that you can boot from directly.; Two of them are Knoppix Linux and DemoLinux. Of course, youm< will probably need a minimum of 64 meg of memory to run such: a CD. That's why I recommended that you check out the used@ Pentium marketplace for a cheap addition to your computer coral.   -- h? +-------------------------------------------------------------+v? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |o? +-------------------------------------------------------------+r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:51:25 -0500n' From: Eric Sosman <Eric.Sosman@sun.com>t Subject: Re: unix ' Message-ID: <3E70E13D.E4DAB366@sun.com>    Charles Richmond wrote:  > @ > Also, there are Linux CDROM's that you can boot from directly.= > Two of them are Knoppix Linux and DemoLinux. Of course, you > > will probably need a minimum of 64 meg of memory to run such< > a CD. That's why I recommended that you check out the usedB > Pentium marketplace for a cheap addition to your computer coral.  9     Computer coral?  Are they giving the full fathom five ; treatment to old mainframe carcasses, in an effort to shoree( up the deteriorating Great Barrier Reef?   -- M Eric.Sosman@sun.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:38:34 -0500 4 From: Roland Hutchinson <my_spamtrap@eudoramail.com> Subject: Re: unix 5 Message-ID: <b4r1b1$22oigo$1@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de>"   J. Clarke wrote:  E > SUSE has been around for a while--I don't recall what it stands fora
 > either.   E "Software- und System-Entwicklung" (software and system development).e  H Legally, SuSE Linux AG is the holding company that controls the various G international branches of what was founded originally as "Gesellschaft 6+ fr Software- und System-Entwicklung mbH". o   More details (in English) here:I  P http://www.suse.com/us/company/press/services/information/company/factsheet.html  G Oh, and their lizard-logo is called "Geeko".  Hard to belive though it dE may be, someone actually won a contest a few years ago by suggesting x
 that name.   -- mA Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.   < NB mail to my_spamtrap@eudoramail.com is heavily filtered to? remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.    ------------------------------   Date: 14 Mar 2003 01:21:48 GMT From: rmk@rmkhome.comt Subject: Re: unixi3 Message-ID: <3e712eac$0$198$75868355@news.frii.net>e  2 In alt.folklore.computers jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  C > In addition, I think I finally saw one of HT-TVs.  Not impressed.iF > I was more impressed by what you guys think you need in screen size.  K I still can't figure out why someone would want one. It's just TV. However,oH I am going to buy another analog TV before my old one dies, so that I'llI have a spare in the future. I have ATT (now Comcast) digital cable with a  box that outputs analog. i --  , rmk@rmkhome.com		http://www.rmkhome.com/~rmk   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:56:09 GMTs9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>n& Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth? Message-ID: <525aa1d24b.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>l  $ In message <b3vavs$bgv$1@serpens.de>!           is@serpens.de () wrote:e  ' > I might be late to comment, but this:e > N > In article <g1ku0v0s2vg9gil7rtjb9m30pliqh5np41@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis wrote: > D > >VAX interrupt handling was also really "heavy" -- benchmarks withC > >the same I/O device configurations showed that 11/780s could not A > >handle as many interactive users or SCADA device interrupts aseC > >11/70s and other I/O was no faster on the 11/780. This situationaD > >did not get better until terminal servers and LAT were available. >  > triggered my memories. > L > As a 3rd year student at what is now known as {astro,physik}.uni-bonn.de, L > I was a student programmer slave to some PhD student (Hi C.!) who designedJ > and implemented sort of an early version of USB to control vacuum pumps D > and magnets and similar devices at a new extension to the electronL > accellerator. That is, the master was an 11/750, some serial daisy chainedI > bus operated in master-slave fashion connected to ECB bus cages with anrL > i8085 board and some interface hardware in them (and I had to write mostlyJ > test software for said 8085 cpus, to check they really could control theK > hardware. I think of 3 programs which I wrote, 2 found that the interfacer! > hardware was faulty.) Anyway...m > I > There was another 11/750 side-by-side with mine, some older equipment, nI > a 11/780 (and for some time a PDP-10 of some sort) in another room, andaJ > lots of terminals all over the building, a few connected to our machine,I > lots to the 11/780. The 780 used to be known as PIB:: on HEPNET and as   > DBNPIB5 on EARN. > A > The 780 administrator talked one day to C and told him that hiseF > machine would at certain times of day be nearly 100% on the interuptF > stack.  C asked for the numbers of terminals connected to old serialC > i/o boards (that needed one interupt per output character), did arI > back of the head calculation, (N lines times 1 input char resulting in lC > 2k output chars per second times K microseconds per interupt) ande > offered advice.  > E > The advice was to move as many serial lines as possible to the moreoJ > intelligent serial interface boards, or to terminal servers talking LAT. > J > Apparently, full screen editors put some stress at output capabilities.   ! Indeed. There were two solutions:   E 1   Use DMZ32 instead of DZ-11, the DMZ used DMA and local processingm 2   Use TPU-based editors.  J EDTplus replaced EDT for us, and drastically improved the interrupt level.   Alan   -- c
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:49:10 -0000u- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)n' Subject: Re: VMS - duplicating databasev5 Message-ID: <933D8F775warrenspencer1977@216.168.3.30>s  + timasmith@hotmail.com (Tim Smith) wrote in  2 <a7234bb1.0303120930.40a5523e@posting.google.com>:   >Hi,F >    I have a large 200GB database that I need to duplicate to anotherG >node.  Does anyone have a procedure for this.  I have a bunch of disks C >that I can backup the entire database to and I believe I can mountnD >those on the second node (VMS guys do I need to reboot that node?).F >    What do I have to do, apart from init.ora to 'point' the database >to the new name?o >d >thanks, >  >Tim  F Assuming the init.ora implies an Oracle 7+ database, you've got a few # options, depending on your needs...o  E 1) Do you actually want another copy of the data files on a separate  I machine (for backup purposes perhaps) ?  If not, you can mount the first xK machine's data disks on the second machine (assuming a cluster), and run a aL second instance of Oracle that points to exactly the same data files.  This H configuration has been known as Oracle Parallel Server.  Oracle on both G nodes requires a little configuration work for this.  See the docs for   Parallel Server.  / 2) If you need to actually copy the data files:v+     	- Install Oracle on the receiving node,J     	- Shut down Oracle on the source node (required before copying files)6     	- Copy the files across (tape, network, whatever)E     	- Configure the receiving server to recognize the database fileseE     	  You'll need to refer to the docs for this - I believe you havesF     	  to bring the database up unmounted to issue the commands neededD     	  to point Oracle at the new locations for the data files.  See     	  "Moving data files".    ws   --     Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)a The Associated Press  + ** What's brown and sticky?    A stick.  **a   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.143 ************************er a day or two because you haven't seen anyJ sprouts come out, you'll never succeed. You need patience. And during thatG time, you need to continue to take some beating for the long term good.s  M And for that, you need a leader who has enough leadership and self confidencerK to convince the israeli people that they'll need to take some beating freewarev50/vim/vax" is current directory. <<< CWD syntaxC >>> 250 Connected to /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim/vax/syntax.3 <<< TYPE A >>> 200 Type A ok. <<< PORT 216,84,63,130,15,944 >>> 200 Port 15.94 at Host 216.84.63.130 accepted.
 <<< LIST >>> 150 List started.  >>> 226 Transfer completed.s/ <<< CWD /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim/vax/d< >>> 250 Connected to /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim/vax.	 <<< PWDeF >>> 257 "/disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim/vax" is current directory. <<< CWD tools B >>> 250 Connected to /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim/vax/tools. <<< TYPE A >>> 200 Type A ok. <<< PORT 216,84,63,130,15,954 >>> 200 Port 15.95 at Host 216.84.63.130 accepted.
 <<< LIST >>> 150 List started.. >>> 226 Transfer completed.a/ <<< CWD /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim/vax/ < >>> 250 Connected to /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim/vax.	 <<< PWD/F >>> 257 "/disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim/vax" is current directory. <<< CWD tutoriB >>> 250 Connected to /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim/vax/tutor. <<< TYPE A >>> 200 Type A ok. <<< PORT 216,84,63,130,15,964 >>> 200 Port 15.96 at Host 216.84.63.130 accepted.
 <<< LIST >>> 150 List started.. >>> 226 Transfer completed.a/ <<< CWD /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim/vax/ < >>> 250 Connected to /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim/vax.+ <<< CWD /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim/ 8 >>> 250 Connected to /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/vim.' <<< CWD /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/>4 >>> 250 Connected to /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50.	 <<< PWD> >>> 257 "/disk$misc/decus/freewarev50" is current directory. <<< CWD virtcfb.< >>> 250 Connected to /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/virtcfb. <<< TYPE A >>> 200 Type A ok. <<< PORT 216,84,63,130,15,974 >>> 200 Port 15.97 at Host 216.84.63.130 accepted.
 <<< LIST >>> 150 List started.< >>> 226 Transfer completed.v' <<< CWD /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50/s4 >>> 250 Connected to /disk$misc/decus/freewarev50.	 <<< PWD>> >>> 