1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 14 Mar 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 144       Contents:6 Re: Anyone use a Compaq 20/40 dlt tape drive in a vax?. Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues. Re: Apache authentication/authorization issuesE asking again- what was the fastest vax and alpha made (vms of course) I Re: asking again- what was the fastest vax and alpha made (vms of course) I RE: asking again- what was the fastest vax and alpha made (vms of course) ) Re: Backward compatibility of executables  Re: Big Endian vs little Endian  RE: Big Endian vs little Endian  Re: Big Endian vs little Endian  Re: Big Endian vs little Endian  Re: Big Endian vs little Endian  RE: Big Endian vs little Endian  RE: Big Endian vs little Endian P Carly Fiorina provides advice to Homeland Security Dept. based on HPQ Merger lesP Re: Carly Fiorina provides advice to Homeland Security Dept. based on HPQ Merger Re: Carly's feedback link  DEC Related Books for Sale1 Re: DECnet SERVICE CIRCUIT for multiple e-devices 1 Re: DECnet SERVICE CIRCUIT for multiple e-devices / Re: DIFFERENT BLOCKSIZE FOR BACKUP AND RESTORE? / Re: DIFFERENT BLOCKSIZE FOR BACKUP AND RESTORE? 1 download file without opening from OSU web server - Re: environment variables lost on AlphaPC 164 $ RE: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX$ Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX$ Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX$ Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX$ Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX Help needed adding Vax memory ! Re: Help needed adding Vax memory ! Re: Help needed adding Vax memory ! Re: Help needed adding Vax memory O Re: How many other sites had their CSLG licenses expire at midnight last night? % HP explains quarterly results numbers . Re: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down?. RE: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down?3 Re: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible)  Re: More Oracle weirdness * Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants* Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants Re: One version of a file ONLY. * Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlaying1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants 1 Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants + Re: restoring a file from a backup (newbie)  Re: RWMBX problem? Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix Re: unix  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:54:38 -0500 ! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> ? Subject: Re: Anyone use a Compaq 20/40 dlt tape drive in a vax? ' Message-ID: <3E71ED2E.20218A84@vcu.edu>   G hey, thanks!!!  that would explain a lot...  however, on that test vax, C the sysdisk bus is scsia, and the tape was hanging off the b bus..  H however, a reset may have knocked bonkers anyhow..  we're probably goingB to go Tivoli anyhow, but hopefully this discussion helped someone.   Alan Adams wrote:  > ( > In message <3E675D46.2CB6B9D7@vcu.edu>. >           Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> wrote: > L > > Interesting... I have an Exabyte 8200 that came out of a device that wasE > > hung off a hsc controller.  when i put it on my vs3100m78, with a F > > storageworks box with 6 drives in it, it crashes vms..  not reallyK > > having time to fiddle, i noted it and moved on.. (im using it currently C > > as a genderbender for two male scsi cables at the moment. ;-) )  > K > Two thoughts here. The Storageworks shelves act as a LONG SCSI cable - if J > you add another cable you are likely to exceed the SCSi cable limits for: > single-ended. This is usually quoted as 2.5 or 2 metres. > M > If this VAX has only one SCSI bus, then your system disk and tape drive are L > sharing a bus. Tape drives, some at least, can assert SCSI bus resets, and > these can crash VMS. > L > (This may only be true in a cluster - i.e. it stalls the system for longer4 > than PASANITY, then causes a cluexit on recovery.) >  > Alan >  > >  > > Jim  > >  > > Brian Tillman wrote: > > >  > > > Along the same lines...  > > > M > > > I have a DLT4000 currently attached to an HSD30.  On the VAX, the drive J > > > shows up as a TZ01.  It seems to work, although I realize it's not aM > > > supported configuration, at least the firmware docs for the HSD seem to  > > > indicate that. > > > Q > > > I have another drive, a DLT2000 (effectively a TZ87), that I'd like to use. K > > > I daisy-chained it from the DLT4000 and it, too, showed up as a TZ01. Q > > > However, neither would work reliably.  I'd get fatal controller errors and, N > > > once the DLT2000 hung and trying to reset the HSD caused a system crash.N > > > I'm pretty sure the DLT2000 is a working device, since it was on another$ > > > platform and working correctly > > > N > > > I have attached to the SCSI bus on the VAX (KZQSA), a StorageWorks shelfQ > > > containing two 8mm drives.  Could I daisy-chain the DLT2000 from the shelf? P > > > I'm thinking that if the device is directly attached to the VAX instead ofM > > > via the HSD, it might work more reliably.  I'm running OpenVMS VAX V7.2  > > > --O > > > Brian Tillman         Internet: Brian.Tillman at smiths-aerospace dot com ; > > > Smiths Aerospace  Addresses modified to prevent SPAM. F > > > 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS Replace "at" with "@", "dot" with "."! > > > Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991 > > > >        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company > >  >  > -- > Alan Adams( > alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk > http://www.nckc.org.uk/    --  F "4,000 years ago I made a mistake."  Elrond Half-Elven, in "Fellowship of the Ring"   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:44:37 -0000 3 From: "Tom Wade" <t.wade@vms.eurokom.removespam.ie> 7 Subject: Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues * Message-ID: <b4spht$e9v$1@kermit.esat.net>  * <don.rogstad@dalsemi.com> wrote in message+ news:03031313523864@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com...   F > ----------------------- Begin C code -------------------------------  I I would strongly recommend the use of $SCAN_INTRUSION here.  If you don't L call this routine every time you validate a password, then you are bypassingH the Intrusion Detection routines that VMS provides during an interactiveK login, and providing a way for a hacker to systematically attack an account  with repeated password guesses.   7 See ftp://picard.eurokom.ie/setpass.zip for an example.   D --------------------------------------------------------------------< Tom Wade             | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie? EuroKom              | X400:  g=tom;s=wade;o=eurokom;p=eurokom; / Unit A2              |        a=eirmail400;c=ie / Nutgrove Office Park | Tel:   +353 (1) 296-9696 / Rathfarnham          | Fax:   +353 (1) 296-9697 < Dublin 14            | Disclaimer:  This is not a disclaimerC Ireland              | Tip:   "Friends don't let friends do Unix !"    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 09:14:00 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)7 Subject: Re: Apache authentication/authorization issues = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0303140914.7602899c@posting.google.com>   b lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) wrote in message news:<b4qq2g$mk8$2@newslocal.mitre.org>... > bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes in article <d7791aa1.0303130537.1b0f2aee@posting.google.com> dated 13 Mar 2003 05:37:23 -0800:g > >> In article <995e39b6.0303121444.23a8eed2@posting.google.com>, ewilts@ewilts.org (Ed Wilts) writes: K > >> >What I need to do is authenticate a user against a a VMS account, and  >   . > >and would be even easier using purveyor ... > K > Buffalo chips!  The first thing Purveyor makes you do is set up an entire L > new database of usernames and passwords.  Ed wants to use his existing VMS > accounts, as in SYSUAF.  > - > --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org @ > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.  ; you are going to be eating buffalo chips ... purveyor has a : dll that enables you to use sysuaf instead of its built in8 one, or you could edit the c dll routine to use your own= rms database, or even apaches HTPASSWD semi encrpyted one ... > the possibilities are endless ... how do you take those chips, plain or with salt?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:57:46 -0500  From: Dan <dan@vrx.net> N Subject: asking again- what was the fastest vax and alpha made (vms of course)8 Message-ID: <qr547vgs8u43tt5q1e0r62bg4gj20963ps@4ax.com>  B I've been trying to read the websites, and history, and models and) stuff, and get a bit lost in all of them.   F I'm not really interested in the super-multi-processor systems (as I'd$ never be able to afford one anyhow).  E I see things like systems with 48x vax and I think I saw one that was  76x.  E So I just wondered if someone could tell me (quickly and easily) what B were the fastest vax system made (non-multi-processor) and fastest. Alpha made (vms systems, non-multiprocessor) ?  A and also, what were the last models of vms systems to roll of the 4 assembly lines in both vax and alpha configurations?  A please don't give me urls to research, I've already tried to read  them. ugh...   Dan.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 19:16:07 +0100 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>R Subject: Re: asking again- what was the fastest vax and alpha made (vms of course)6 Message-ID: <b4t69d$238crf$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>   Off the top of my head:    VAX 4705A approx 48 VUPS VAX7600 (7700?) approx 60 VUPS  D Now if only that cpu had been speeded up like an IA32. Sigh. Wishful thinking I know.L The fastest alpha specs can be found on the HP site: look for the latest EV7 models. L As Terry Shannon used to say "the fastest processor on the planet". But dead in the water. Sigh again...   & "Dan" <dan@vrx.net> schreef in bericht2 news:qr547vgs8u43tt5q1e0r62bg4gj20963ps@4ax.com...D > I've been trying to read the websites, and history, and models and+ > stuff, and get a bit lost in all of them.  > H > I'm not really interested in the super-multi-processor systems (as I'd& > never be able to afford one anyhow). > G > I see things like systems with 48x vax and I think I saw one that was  > 76x. > G > So I just wondered if someone could tell me (quickly and easily) what D > were the fastest vax system made (non-multi-processor) and fastest0 > Alpha made (vms systems, non-multiprocessor) ? > C > and also, what were the last models of vms systems to roll of the 6 > assembly lines in both vax and alpha configurations? > C > please don't give me urls to research, I've already tried to read  > them. ugh... >  > Dan.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:23:18 -0500 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> R Subject: RE: asking again- what was the fastest vax and alpha made (vms of course)T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D9E40@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Dan,  
 Check out:? http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_tps.html C http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_by_perf.html  (Alpha) G http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_by_perf_dec.html  (VAX)    Regards   
 Kerry Main Solutions Architect  Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----! From: Dan [mailto:dan@vrx.net]=20  Sent: March 14, 2003 12:58 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com F Subject: asking again- what was the fastest vax and alpha made (vms of course)     B I've been trying to read the websites, and history, and models and) stuff, and get a bit lost in all of them.   F I'm not really interested in the super-multi-processor systems (as I'd$ never be able to afford one anyhow).  E I see things like systems with 48x vax and I think I saw one that was  76x.  E So I just wondered if someone could tell me (quickly and easily) what H were the fastest vax system made (non-multi-processor) and fastest Alpha( made (vms systems, non-multiprocessor) ?  A and also, what were the last models of vms systems to roll of the 4 assembly lines in both vax and alpha configurations?  G please don't give me urls to research, I've already tried to read them.  ugh...   Dan.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 19:26:10 +0100 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>2 Subject: Re: Backward compatibility of executables6 Message-ID: <b4t6s8$23vutp$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>  E "Sloan Essman" <sessman@spamnomore.houston.rr.com> schreef in bericht 5 news:YBRba.38050$z54.1999925@twister.austin.rr.com... G > We have recently purchased a new system for our developers to replace E > our old system running VMS 6.2. The new system is running VMS 7.3-1 E > and the minimum version requirement was somewhere in the 7.2 range. E > We sill have a lot of customers running 6.2. Does anyone know where D > I could look up the compatibility of our 7.3 generated executablesC > with the older systems running 6.2 to find a minumum version that  > they will have to run? > F > We're already prepared to tell the 6.2 customers that they will needB > to upgrade, but for example we have 7.1 and 7.2 customers and weE > don't want to cause those guys grief if they don't need to upgrade.  > C > I've tried to check the "Ask the Wizard" web page, but the search % > feature isn't working for me today.  >  > TIA for any pointers!  > Sloan Essman > Landata Systems, Inc.  > Houston, Texas >  > F It depends on how the application is designed. If you link against theI system map then the .EXE is tied to the OS. If you use system services or K RTL routines YMMV. I have a simple application, VMS Pascal and SMG routines J that was compiled and linked with PASCAL056 on a VAX/VMS 7.3 syste. It ranH unmodified on VMS V7.2, V6.1 and V5.5-1. The image was vested and ran on0 AXP/VMS 7.3 as well but that won't interest you.  C So unless you're prepared to give us a lot more details, it remains K guessing. But I think you might learn a lot from the way the linker is used  to build the .EXE file.    Hans   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:55:02 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>( Subject: Re: Big Endian vs little Endian0 Message-ID: <a3mca.336$ST5.136@news.cpqcorp.net>   Jeff Cameron wrote: N > On 3/13/03 10:58 AM, in article CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEMIGMAA.tom@kednos.com,& > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote: >  > E >>>4. Are the addressing bounderies on 64 bit quad-words, or smaller?  >>7 >>I suspect that this was about alignment requirements.  > K > Yes that is exactly the reason for my question. For an explicit question, * > can a 64 bit quad-word be aligned on a : >  > 1. 32 Bit Boundary?  > 2. 16 Bit Boundary?  > 3. 8 Bit Boundary? >  > Jeff Cameron >   I The ld8 and st8 instructions will accept an unaligned address.  For some  H   addresses the chip will do the fixup (It varies from chip to chip and A is probably cache-width sensitive if I had to guess).  For other  I addresses, the chip raises an unaligned fault which the operating system  + fixes up.  Much like the PAL code on Alpha.   G Just like on Alpha, if the compiler knows (or can wisely guess) that a  H 64-bit item is not on a 64-bit boundary, it might generate some smaller G loads and fetch the data in smaller chunks.  Doing 8 ld1's in a row is  F still faster than letting the chip take a fault, jump into the OS and F have it do the same set of ld1's, and return all the way back to your  program.   --   John Reagan ' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 07:27:57 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ( Subject: RE: Big Endian vs little Endian9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEOCGMAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message----- . >From: John Reagan [mailto:john.reagan@hp.com]% >Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 6:55 AM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com) >Subject: Re: Big Endian vs little Endian  >  >  >Jeff Cameron wrote:" >> On 3/13/03 10:58 AM, in article- >CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEMIGMAA.tom@kednos.com, ' >> "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:  >> >>F >>>>4. Are the addressing bounderies on 64 bit quad-words, or smaller? >>> 8 >>>I suspect that this was about alignment requirements. >>L >> Yes that is exactly the reason for my question. For an explicit question,+ >> can a 64 bit quad-word be aligned on a :  >> >> 1. 32 Bit Boundary? >> 2. 16 Bit Boundary? >> 3. 8 Bit Boundary?  >> >> Jeff Cameron  >> > I >The ld8 and st8 instructions will accept an unaligned address.  For some H >  addresses the chip will do the fixup (It varies from chip to chip andA >is probably cache-width sensitive if I had to guess).  For other I >addresses, the chip raises an unaligned fault which the operating system , >fixes up.  Much like the PAL code on Alpha.  F I didn't understand that,  do you have a reference (URL?)where this is	 explained E in more detail?  If it raises a condition it doesn't accept unaligned  access.  It I is possible to support unaligned access with at most one tick penalty, as  shown  by the Power PC (IIRC)   > G >Just like on Alpha, if the compiler knows (or can wisely guess) that a H >64-bit item is not on a 64-bit boundary, it might generate some smallerG >loads and fetch the data in smaller chunks.  Doing 8 ld1's in a row is F >still faster than letting the chip take a fault, jump into the OS andF >have it do the same set of ld1's, and return all the way back to your	 >program.  >  >--  >John Reagan( >Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader >Hewlett-Packard Company >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 2/13/2003  >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 2/13/2003   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:51:17 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>( Subject: Re: Big Endian vs little Endian0 Message-ID: <VTmca.339$6%5.283@news.cpqcorp.net>  E Clair and I would like to add some clarification to a recent posting  , from Sue which contained answers from Clair.   Sue Skonetski wrote:E > The following is in response to questions Jeff Cameron posted.  The H > answers are from Clair Grant the engineering lead on the port project. > And posted with his ok.  >  > Home this helps, >  > Sue  > H > ______________________________________________________________________H > I have heard that the Itanium will support either Little Endian or Big > Endian memory addressing.  >  > 1. Is this true? >  > yes  >  > 2. If so, how is this done? - > 3. How is it changed from one or the other?  > F > Endianness is per process selectable and controls the order in whichG > the process reads/writes bytes. There is a bit in the user mask field E > of the processor status register that the user program can control. 1 > The default for a VMS process is little endian.  >   A While the Itanium architecture supports changing endianness on a  F per-process basis by user code, we don't want people to get the wrong ( impression on what OpenVMS will support.  D Just so there is no confusion, OpenVMS is a little endian operating E system, period.  The kernel, I/O, compilers, libraries, etc. are all  E little endian.  If an application changes the endian bit in the User  G Mask and then changes to an inner mode, OpenVMS will operate in little  I endian mode.  We can't prevent an application from changing the flag but  C there is no piece of the standard OpenVMS product that supports or   operates in big endian mode.     --   John Reagan ' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:21:37 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>( Subject: Re: Big Endian vs little Endian/ Message-ID: <Bcoca.345$776.13@news.cpqcorp.net>    Tom Linden wrote:    > H > I didn't understand that,  do you have a reference (URL?)where this is > explained G > in more detail?  If it raises a condition it doesn't accept unaligned 
 > access.  It K > is possible to support unaligned access with at most one tick penalty, as  > shown  > by the Power PC (IIRC) >  >   = In the 'Intel IA-64 Architecture Software Developer's Manual, D Volume 1: IA-64 Application Architure", section 4.4, "Memory Access  Instructions", paragraph 3  H "For highest performance, data should be aligned on natural boundaries. G   Within a 4K-byte boundary, accesses misaligned with respect to their  F natural boundaries will always fault if UM.ac (alignment check bit in G the User Mask register) is 1.  If UM.ac is 0, then an unaligned access  I will succeed if it is supported by the implementation; otherwise it will  I cause an Unaligned Data Reference fault.  All memory accesses that cross  @ a 4K-byte boundary will cause an Unaligned Data Reference fault E independent of UM.ac.  Additionally, all semaphore instructions will  H cause an Unaligned Data Reference fault if the access is not aligned to , its natural boundary, independent of UM.ac."  I The "if it is supported by the implementation" is the key.  For example,  C the chip might fixup an unaligned ld4 only if the memory is in one  E quadword or octaword.  If the chip doesn't fix it up, the OS will if  	 possible.   D I don't know much about the PowerPC, but I would find it odd if the D *architecture* promised just a 1 "tick" penalty for unaligned data. F What if the data spanned a page boundary and caused a page fault? Etc.     --   John Reagan ' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:23:15 -0500 A From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com> ( Subject: Re: Big Endian vs little Endian, Message-ID: <3e721004_2@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEOCGMAA.tom@kednos.com...  >  >  > >-----Original Message----- 0 > >From: John Reagan [mailto:john.reagan@hp.com]' > >Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 6:55 AM  > >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ > >Subject: Re: Big Endian vs little Endian  > >  > >  > >Jeff Cameron wrote:$ > >> On 3/13/03 10:58 AM, in article/ > >CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEMIGMAA.tom@kednos.com, ) > >> "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:  > >> > >>H > >>>>4. Are the addressing bounderies on 64 bit quad-words, or smaller? > >>> : > >>>I suspect that this was about alignment requirements. > >>D > >> Yes that is exactly the reason for my question. For an explicit	 question, - > >> can a 64 bit quad-word be aligned on a :  > >> > >> 1. 32 Bit Boundary? > >> 2. 16 Bit Boundary? > >> 3. 8 Bit Boundary?  > >> > >> Jeff Cameron  > >> > > K > >The ld8 and st8 instructions will accept an unaligned address.  For some J > >  addresses the chip will do the fixup (It varies from chip to chip andC > >is probably cache-width sensitive if I had to guess).  For other K > >addresses, the chip raises an unaligned fault which the operating system . > >fixes up.  Much like the PAL code on Alpha. > H > I didn't understand that,  do you have a reference (URL?)where this is > explained G > in more detail?  If it raises a condition it doesn't accept unaligned 
 > access.  It K > is possible to support unaligned access with at most one tick penalty, as  > shown  > by the Power PC (IIRC) >   C You should treat alignment just as you would on Alpha.  The natural L alignment will always be the fastest.  So, bytes can be anywhere, 16 bits onB word boundries, 32 bits on longword boundries, 64 bits on quadword
 boundries.  I Unaligned access will get "fixed up" for you, but with a performance cost L that may vary from implementation to implementation.  Worst case is that the, access traps to the OS which does the fixup.  E FWIW IMHO it is impossible to guarantee worst case "fixup" of 1 tick. H Consider a quadword that crosses a page boundry.  Perhaps you mean worst= case if the entire value is contained in the same cache line.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:42:43 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ( Subject: RE: Big Endian vs little Endian9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEOHGMAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message----- . >From: John Reagan [mailto:john.reagan@hp.com]% >Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:22 AM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com) >Subject: Re: Big Endian vs little Endian  >  >  >Tom Linden wrote: >  >>I >> I didn't understand that,  do you have a reference (URL?)where this is  >> explainedH >> in more detail?  If it raises a condition it doesn't accept unaligned >> access.  ItL >> is possible to support unaligned access with at most one tick penalty, as >> shown >> by the Power PC (IIRC)  >> >> > > >In the 'Intel IA-64 Architecture Software Developer's Manual,D >Volume 1: IA-64 Application Architure", section 4.4, "Memory Access >Instructions", paragraph 3   3 I suppose I can find that with Google if I need it?    > H >"For highest performance, data should be aligned on natural boundaries.G >  Within a 4K-byte boundary, accesses misaligned with respect to their F >natural boundaries will always fault if UM.ac (alignment check bit inG >the User Mask register) is 1.  If UM.ac is 0, then an unaligned access I >will succeed if it is supported by the implementation; otherwise it will I >cause an Unaligned Data Reference fault.  All memory accesses that cross @ >a 4K-byte boundary will cause an Unaligned Data Reference faultE >independent of UM.ac.  Additionally, all semaphore instructions will H >cause an Unaligned Data Reference fault if the access is not aligned to- >its natural boundary, independent of UM.ac."  > I >The "if it is supported by the implementation" is the key.  For example, C >the chip might fixup an unaligned ld4 only if the memory is in one E >quadword or octaword.  If the chip doesn't fix it up, the OS will if 
 >possible. > D >I don't know much about the PowerPC, but I would find it odd if theD >*architecture* promised just a 1 "tick" penalty for unaligned data.G >What if the data spanned a page boundary and caused a page fault? Etc.   G Well, I could be wrong, I haven't looked at since the mid 90's but as I G recall they had a long barrel shifter (somewhere in the fetch pipeline)   which took an extra tick to spinI to extract the unaligned (now effectively aligned) datum.  Don't remember I how they dealt with page boundaries, although conceivably this would work  as well    >  >  >--  >John Reagan( >Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader >Hewlett-Packard Company >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 2/13/2003  >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 2/13/2003   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:47:59 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ( Subject: RE: Big Endian vs little Endian9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEOIGMAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message----- G >From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star-dot-zko-dot-dec-dot-com] % >Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:23 AM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com) >Subject: Re: Big Endian vs little Endian  >  >  > / >"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message 4 >news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEOCGMAA.tom@kednos.com... >> >> >> >-----Original Message-----1 >> >From: John Reagan [mailto:john.reagan@hp.com] ( >> >Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 6:55 AM >> >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com , >> >Subject: Re: Big Endian vs little Endian >> > >> > >> >Jeff Cameron wrote: % >> >> On 3/13/03 10:58 AM, in article 0 >> >CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEMIGMAA.tom@kednos.com,* >> >> "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote: >> >>  >> >> I >> >>>>4. Are the addressing bounderies on 64 bit quad-words, or smaller?  >> >>>; >> >>>I suspect that this was about alignment requirements.  >> >> E >> >> Yes that is exactly the reason for my question. For an explicit 
 >question,. >> >> can a 64 bit quad-word be aligned on a : >> >>  >> >> 1. 32 Bit Boundary?  >> >> 2. 16 Bit Boundary?  >> >> 3. 8 Bit Boundary? >> >>  >> >> Jeff Cameron >> >>  >> >L >> >The ld8 and st8 instructions will accept an unaligned address.  For someK >> >  addresses the chip will do the fixup (It varies from chip to chip and D >> >is probably cache-width sensitive if I had to guess).  For otherL >> >addresses, the chip raises an unaligned fault which the operating system/ >> >fixes up.  Much like the PAL code on Alpha.  >>I >> I didn't understand that,  do you have a reference (URL?)where this is  >> explainedH >> in more detail?  If it raises a condition it doesn't accept unaligned >> access.  ItL >> is possible to support unaligned access with at most one tick penalty, as >> shown >> by the Power PC (IIRC)  >> > D >You should treat alignment just as you would on Alpha.  The naturalB >alignment will always be the fastest.  So, bytes can be anywhere, >16 bits on C >word boundries, 32 bits on longword boundries, 64 bits on quadword  >boundries.   H Well you can't always do that.  PL/I structure members, for example, areK by default not aligned on a natural boundary.  If you are writing new code, L you can do that, but if you are compiling legacy code and/or reading recordsL the data will in general not be aligned.  IBM was aware of this problem when! they originally designed the chip    > J >Unaligned access will get "fixed up" for you, but with a performance costA >that may vary from implementation to implementation.  Worst case  >is that the- >access traps to the OS which does the fixup.  > F >FWIW IMHO it is impossible to guarantee worst case "fixup" of 1 tick.I >Consider a quadword that crosses a page boundry.  Perhaps you mean worst > >case if the entire value is contained in the same cache line. >  >  >  >  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 2/13/2003  >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 2/13/2003   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 09:30:07 -08001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) Y Subject: Carly Fiorina provides advice to Homeland Security Dept. based on HPQ Merger les = Message-ID: <cf15391e.0303140930.71215147@posting.google.com>   C Back in December, ComputerWorld reported that White House officials ? were interested in learning from HP the lessons gained from its 1 successful merger with Compaq.  Here's an update:   B "Several CIOs and officials of the Department of Homeland SecurityD gathered to hear CEO Carly discuss the integration journey.  FiorinaB outlined six best practices in merger integration and detailed the5 company's focus on processes, people and technology."    The transcript is at7 http://hpnow.corp.hp.com/carly-ec/speeches/030313sp.htm    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:03:56 -0800 & From: Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com>Y Subject: Re: Carly Fiorina provides advice to Homeland Security Dept. based on HPQ Merger / Message-ID: <v746c98h5sfe7e@corp.supernews.com>	   Keith Parris wrote: E > Back in December, ComputerWorld reported that White House officials?A > were interested in learning from HP the lessons gained from itst3 > successful merger with Compaq.  Here's an update:t > D > "Several CIOs and officials of the Department of Homeland SecurityF > gathered to hear CEO Carly discuss the integration journey.  FiorinaD > outlined six best practices in merger integration and detailed the7 > company's focus on processes, people and technology."a >  > The transcript is at9 > http://hpnow.corp.hp.com/carly-ec/speeches/030313sp.htmv  9 Keith - this URL isn't available outside the HP firewall.n -- v
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:12:15 +0000o' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyd" Subject: Re: Carly's feedback link. Message-ID: <3E71B90F.1040804@nospamn.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:Z > In article <3E6F1D87.1050800@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: > < >>Well SAP didn't run on OpenVMS so that removes one option. >  > E >    SAP did run on VMS.  I wouldn't be suprised to find a site stilln >    using it. >   2 R2 did but since R2 never ran on NT we are talking3 about R3 which has never been ported to OpenVMS. R3s/ was the only version of SAP ported to Alpha/NT.S   Regardse Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------   Date: 14 Mar 2003 15:04:15 GMT! From: swmoretp@aol.com (SWMORETP) # Subject: DEC Related Books for Saled9 Message-ID: <20030314100415.17669.00000038@mb-ff.aol.com>o  5 We have these Digital related items for sale on eBay.i, DECwrite 2.0 Manuals by Digital  - NEW      + Item # 3401998100  Buy it Now   -  $12.99  b" Digital Control Handbook by DEC   3 3406365942  ENDS - Tuesday Mar-18 18:53:51 US PST  p+ VAX Architecture Reference Manual by DEC   r 3406366603  , PDP-11 Assembler Language Programming Book  1 3406606132    ENDS Wednesday Mar-19 20:31:35  PSTr, Computer Cybernetics Book by Digital Press   3406606667  , PDP-8 etc. Small Computer Handbook by DEC    3405939548  Mar-19 20:45:56r. Digital Logic Handbook by DEC , PDP-8  - 12    3405940216  + VAX COBOL Reference Manual by Digital      T  3406008449  Buy it Now   $11.99 5 VAX COBOL User Manual by Digital Equipment Corp.     y! 3406008861  Buy it Now   $11.99  i   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:17:42 GMT A From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk>t: Subject: Re: DECnet SERVICE CIRCUIT for multiple e-devices; Message-ID: <a%hca.120$FA1.1695885@news-text.cableinet.net>t  J The problem here is establishing an outbound connection from your VMS nodeJ to a target DECserver (or other network device). Reasons you might need to8 do this for are access to the console port, TRIGGER etc.  K Inbound load requests will be serviced over the circuit the request arrivesNJ on. So, don't specify a SERVICE CIRCUIT on any of the 'nodes' in the Phase IV permanent database.  L NCP CONNECT <node> VIA <circuit> will let you control which circuit you makeK an outbound connection over to the DECserver or whatever. Means you have to:I remember which circuit to connect over base on which node you're on. Easy K enough to do with a command file, eg: @CONNECT_DECSERVER <server> where thebG command file figures out the correct circuit to use based on which nodex you're logged in to.  J Another idea would be to run a DCL command file at boot to use a string ofK NCP SET NODE <node> SERVICE CIRCUIT <circuit> commands against the volatileAJ (in memory, node specific) database. Your problem is that you can't DEFINEH them in the permanent common database (NETNODE_REMOTE.DAT now moved intoE SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE] or referred to by a NETNODE_REMOTE logical name).o  F The only reason that DECservers etc. appear as 'nodes' in the Phase IVI permanent database is that it's how MOP is able to associate a load image H (and other data) with a MAC address. Phase V does it better in that suchG devices become "MOP clients" without any Phase IV name / DECnet address. data.   H I generally separate out pseudo-nodes from real DECnet nodes by using anL entirely different DECnet Phase IV address range for them. No problem at allI since the device never runs DECnet. eg: "DEFINE NODE DS_01 ADDRESS 63.101d. ..." with everything else in a different area.  9 Another way is to use LANACP / LANCP to load the devices.    -- Hope this helps. Cheers, Colin.e' (colinDOT.butcherAT@xdeltaDOT.coDOT.uk)i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 06:51:24 -0600f From: brandon@dalsemi.com : Subject: Re: DECnet SERVICE CIRCUIT for multiple e-devices1 Message-ID: <03031406512409@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>v  L > The problem here is establishing an outbound connection from your VMS nodeL > to a target DECserver (or other network device). Reasons you might need to: > do this for are access to the console port, TRIGGER etc. > M > Inbound load requests will be serviced over the circuit the request arrives L > on. So, don't specify a SERVICE CIRCUIT on any of the 'nodes' in the Phase > IV permanent database. >3N > NCP CONNECT <node> VIA <circuit> will let you control which circuit you makeM > an outbound connection over to the DECserver or whatever. Means you have tocK > remember which circuit to connect over base on which node you're on. EasyiM > enough to do with a command file, eg: @CONNECT_DECSERVER <server> where theeI > command file figures out the correct circuit to use based on which nodei > you're logged in to. > L > Another idea would be to run a DCL command file at boot to use a string ofM > NCP SET NODE <node> SERVICE CIRCUIT <circuit> commands against the volatilewL > (in memory, node specific) database. Your problem is that you can't DEFINEJ > them in the permanent common database (NETNODE_REMOTE.DAT now moved intoG > SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE] or referred to by a NETNODE_REMOTE logical name).2 > H > The only reason that DECservers etc. appear as 'nodes' in the Phase IVK > permanent database is that it's how MOP is able to associate a load imagemJ > (and other data) with a MAC address. Phase V does it better in that suchI > devices become "MOP clients" without any Phase IV name / DECnet addresse > data.d > J > I generally separate out pseudo-nodes from real DECnet nodes by using anN > entirely different DECnet Phase IV address range for them. No problem at allK > since the device never runs DECnet. eg: "DEFINE NODE DS_01 ADDRESS 63.101c0 > ..." with everything else in a different area. > ; > Another way is to use LANACP / LANCP to load the devices.n  M It has been awhile since we did DECnet configurations...  the fog is starting 
 to lift...   Thanks for all your input.    L I decided to consolidate the DECnet NETNODE_REMOTE file on all three serversN regardless of the service circuit.  As you stated, it is not used for downlineN MOP loading.  And since we do not use or have use of TRIGGER/LOAD, there is noJ immediate need to add the parameter.  Yes, a command file would be easy toK create to (1) determine the circuit of the node and (2) use that cercuit too access the remote node.d  F I have not configured a LANACP device, so I guess that will be my next, discussion topic - 6 months from now...  ;-)     John Brandon VMS Systems Administratori Dallas Semiconductor john.brandon@dalsemi.com 972.371.4172 wk  972.371.4003 fxk   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 00:06:15 -0800% From: Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn)o8 Subject: Re: DIFFERENT BLOCKSIZE FOR BACKUP AND RESTORE?= Message-ID: <a98cd882.0303140006.4af734cb@posting.google.com>m  D By coincidence, I repeated the experiment of copying tapes with SaveD Set Manager, this time using Fibre Channel attached SDLT drives. One? big saveset took over 24 hours to copy, with the following log:c  + Opening file $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1d< Primary input save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1 opened* Opening file $2$MGA41:[]5MAR200319001600.;4 Output save set $2$MGA41:[]5MAR200319001600.; opened- Read error: block number 41627146 in save set- $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1D Error recovery successful in save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1- Read error: block number 44431255 in save seto $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1D Error recovery successful in save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1* Resuming operation on volume 2 of save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1* Missing Block: number 49097128 in save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1C Block recovered from XOR in save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1tF XOR error at block 49097138 in save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1, Rewritten Block: number 49097158 in save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1* Block recovered via read-ahead in save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1  6   Save Set Manager V1.6  Time: 11-MAR-2003 16:22:45.20       SAVESET function: COPY:     Primary input save set: $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1       No journal fileb2     Output save set: $2$MGA41:[]5MAR200319001600.;       No journal filed  "     Final status of each save set:  4       Save set name:  $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1-       Recoverable CRC errors:               2h-       Recoverable checksum errors:          2 -       XOR errors:                           1--       Recoverable missing blocks:           11-       Rewritten blocks:                     1c  &       User files affected by error(s):  ,               [3 file names removed]          3       Save set name:  $2$MGA41:[]5MAR200319001600.;r         No errors detected  > Again, thanks to OpenVMS BACKUP, these errors are recoverable.  	 Bart Zorno    g Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> wrote in message news:<3e69a83b$0$49101$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>...eG > Two years ago I wrote a DCL script to make copies of BACKUP tapes to  H > other tapes, using Save Set Manager. The hardware was a TL896 library J > with brand new TZ89 drives and brand new DLT IV catridges. Most Backups K > were volumesets (created by ABS) of two or three tapes. I have seen more  H > than once that Save Set Manager reported recoverable errors. In other G > words, errors were detected on the source tape, and corrected on the oK > target. Apparently, the hardware's capability to catch and correct these 1H > errors was not sufficient. If we had used /NOCRC and /GROUP=0 for the : > backups, we would not have known that there were errors. > E > This is why I never will trust a backup without /CRC and /GROUP=>0.  >  > Bart Zornd >  > Nic Clews wrote: > > Kiasu Surfer wrote:p > > S > >>I wonder if the different blocksize used for backup and restore would cause anyi) > >>data integrity problem after restore?f > >>R > >>I am considering using BLOCKSIZE of 61440 for my DLT IV tape as recommended byI > >>Compaq FAQ web, but presently all my backup using BLOCKSIZE of 32256.  > >>T > >>If i were to change restore scripts, would restoration of the older backup tapesP > >>be any problem? (OVMS 7.1 on Alpha, backup using /NOCRC /GROUP=0 parameters) > >  > > I > > Bart is right to point out, particularly when you use the words "dataoL > > integrity" while quoting a command that has "GROUP=0" and "NOCRC" in it,D > > they are mutually exclusive. Having said that, modern DLT drivesH > > typically do have hardware CRC, but without a verification pass, youD > > could quite easily have written something totally unrecoverable. > > K > > One factor is that you would be unable to copy a saveset from tape ontohI > > disk, maximum size on disk is 32768 (ish) and to move savesets aroundaJ > > you'll need Save Set Manager (layered product), assuming your tape was
 > > readable.o > > J > > Sorry to sound so negative, but when you've been around long enough toK > > find your cynicism in in computer hardware proved, you tend to approachcI > > jobs with care and caution, particularly when it isn't mine [data] to)	 > > lose.D > >5   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:15:30 GMTa+ From: Jeff Cameron <JCam90502@jcameron.com>l8 Subject: Re: DIFFERENT BLOCKSIZE FOR BACKUP AND RESTORE?2 Message-ID: <BA96CF94.601A%JCam90502@jcameron.com>  F I have been following this thread, and I have a semi-related question.  G Does the Saveset Mnager product make use of MME (VMS's MEDIA Managementk( Environment), ie SYS$LIBRARY:MMESHR.EXE?   Jeff Cameron On 3/14/03 12:06 AM, in article-< a98cd882.0303140006.4af734cb@posting.google.com, "Bart Zorn" <Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl> wrote:  F > By coincidence, I repeated the experiment of copying tapes with SaveF > Set Manager, this time using Fibre Channel attached SDLT drives. OneA > big saveset took over 24 hours to copy, with the following log:e > - > Opening file $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1 > > Primary input save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1 opened, > Opening file $2$MGA41:[]5MAR200319001600.;6 > Output save set $2$MGA41:[]5MAR200319001600.; opened/ > Read error: block number 41627146 in save set   > $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1F > Error recovery successful in save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1/ > Read error: block number 44431255 in save setc  > $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1F > Error recovery successful in save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1, > Resuming operation on volume 2 of save set  > $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1, > Missing Block: number 49097128 in save set  > $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1E > Block recovered from XOR in save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1 H > XOR error at block 49097138 in save set $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1. > Rewritten Block: number 49097158 in save set  > $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1, > Block recovered via read-ahead in save set  > $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1 > 6 > Save Set Manager V1.6  Time: 11-MAR-2003 16:22:45.20 >  >   SAVESET function: COPY: >   Primary input save set: $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1 >     No journal filee2 >   Output save set: $2$MGA41:[]5MAR200319001600.; >     No journal filer > " >   Final status of each save set: > 4 >     Save set name:  $2$MGA21:[]5MAR200319001600.;1- >     Recoverable CRC errors:               22- >     Recoverable checksum errors:          2a- >     XOR errors:                           1l- >     Recoverable missing blocks:           1g- >     Rewritten blocks:                     1m > & >     User files affected by error(s): > $ >             [3 file names removed] > 3 >     Save set name:  $2$MGA41:[]5MAR200319001600.;t >       No errors detected > @ > Again, thanks to OpenVMS BACKUP, these errors are recoverable. >  > Bart Zornm >  > 6 > Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> wrote in message4 > news:<3e69a83b$0$49101$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>...G >> Two years ago I wrote a DCL script to make copies of BACKUP tapes totH >> other tapes, using Save Set Manager. The hardware was a TL896 libraryJ >> with brand new TZ89 drives and brand new DLT IV catridges. Most BackupsK >> were volumesets (created by ABS) of two or three tapes. I have seen more H >> than once that Save Set Manager reported recoverable errors. In otherG >> words, errors were detected on the source tape, and corrected on theeK >> target. Apparently, the hardware's capability to catch and correct these H >> errors was not sufficient. If we had used /NOCRC and /GROUP=0 for the; >> backups, we would not have known that there were errors.a >> lF >> This is why I never will trust a backup without /CRC and /GROUP=>0. >> n >> Bart Zorn >> / >> Nic Clews wrote:l >>> Kiasu Surfer wrote:I >>> P >>>> I wonder if the different blocksize used for backup and restore would cause >>>> any* >>>> data integrity problem after restore? >>>>  P >>>> I am considering using BLOCKSIZE of 61440 for my DLT IV tape as recommended >>>> byfJ >>>> Compaq FAQ web, but presently all my backup using BLOCKSIZE of 32256. >>>> aO >>>> If i were to change restore scripts, would restoration of the older backup 
 >>>> tapesE >>>> be any problem? (OVMS 7.1 on Alpha, backup using /NOCRC /GROUP=0. >>>> parameters) >>>  >>> I >>> Bart is right to point out, particularly when you use the words "data-L >>> integrity" while quoting a command that has "GROUP=0" and "NOCRC" in it,D >>> they are mutually exclusive. Having said that, modern DLT drivesH >>> typically do have hardware CRC, but without a verification pass, youD >>> could quite easily have written something totally unrecoverable. >>> K >>> One factor is that you would be unable to copy a saveset from tape ontolI >>> disk, maximum size on disk is 32768 (ish) and to move savesets aroundnJ >>> you'll need Save Set Manager (layered product), assuming your tape was
 >>> readable.g >>> J >>> Sorry to sound so negative, but when you've been around long enough toK >>> find your cynicism in in computer hardware proved, you tend to approach7I >>> jobs with care and caution, particularly when it isn't mine [data] tos	 >>> lose.i >>>    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:28:06 -0400M# From: "June Young" <jy@dymaxion.ca>l: Subject: download file without opening from OSU web server3 Message-ID: <Hioca.30177$cB3.150300@nnrp1.uunet.ca>i  $ We are using OSU server on Open VMS.  J We intend to design a page with play/download buttons. The download button8 is supposed to download the target file without open it.  + We found from the web perl cgi code for it:o= print "Content-disposition:attachment;filename=test.pdl\n\n";w open(INPUT, "<test.pdl");e while(<INPUT>){print $_;}a  K The test works on an Apache server on NT but does not work on OSU server ond VMS.I Does anyone have the similar experience? Is there any other alternatives?3  . (We don't want to zip the target file either.)  
 June Young  8 June Young, Software Development bus: (902)422-1973 x144= Dymaxion Research Ltd., 5515 Cogswell St., fax: (902)421-1267t? Halifax, Nova Scotia, B3J 1R2 Canada mailto: JYoung@dymaxion.ca. http://www.dymaxion.ca   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:03:17 +0100.6 From: Horst Drechsel <ai05@sternwarte.uni-erlangen.de>6 Subject: Re: environment variables lost on AlphaPC 164< Message-ID: <00A1CD99.66195D5B.3@sternwarte.uni-erlangen.de>  & >Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:19:08 +0100% >From: "Peter Flunger" <p-i-b@gmx.at> 7 >Subject: Re: environment variables lost on AlphaPC 164)1 >Message-ID: <b4q40t$rsv$1@newsreader1.netway.at>( >c >Can you post the output of- >>>> show configurationi >here ?y >t2 --------------------------------------------------      Dear colleague,      here is the output of      >>>show configuration  : on our AlphaPC 164, which doesn't boot any more after the 7 exchange of a crashed power supply. We have removed allp9 PCI cards except the SCSI controller for the CD drive and : the graphics card, and powered off the floppy. When trying9 to boot from an OpenVMS 7.1-1H1 distribution CD, it hangss' in boot after the first line of output:i  ;       OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System, Version V7.1-1H1   = (after that it keeps on reading from the CD for a few secondst and then gets stuck)    G -----------------------------------------------------------------------1 >>>sh config2                        Digital AlphaPC 164 500 MHz  G SRM Console V4.9-2             VMS PALcode V1.20-9, OSF PALcode V1.22-8d   SROM Revision: 2.2 DECchip (tm) 21164A-26" DECchip (tm) 21172 CIA ASIC Pass 3   MEMORY 256 Meg of system memory     PCI Buse<      Bus 00  Slot 05: Digital S3 TRIO 64 Graphics Controller0      Bus 00  Slot 07: NCR 53C810 Scsi ControllerF                                    pka0.7.0.7.0          SCSI Bus ID 7M                                    dka400.4.0.7.0         TEAC CD-ROM CD-532S 5      Bus 00  Slot 08: Intel 82378IB PCI to ISA Bridge_0      Bus 00  Slot 11: CMD PCI0646 IDE ControllerA                                    dqa0.0.0.11.0         PCI EIDE    ISA K Slot    Device Name             Type         Enabled  BaseAddr  IRQ     DMA  0 B         0      MOUSE            Embedded        Yes     60      12A         1      KBD              Embedded        Yes     60      1nA         2      COM1             Embedded        Yes     3f8     4rA         3      COM2             Embedded        Yes     2f8     3rA         4      LPT1             Embedded        Yes     3bc     7 I         5      FLOPPY           Embedded        Yes     3f0     6       2  >>>r  N ------------------------------------------------------------------------------  0    When trying a converstional boot from CD with      >>>b -flags 0,1 dka400d  ' we get the SYSBOOT> prompt. When saying,      SYSBOOT>continue     / we end up with the same effect described above.  When sayingn      SYSBOOT>exitr   we get the error message:a  N ------------------------------------------------------------------------------A    %SYSBOOT-I-FILENOTLOC, Unable to locate SYS$PUBLIC_VECTORS.EXEsN    %SYSBOOT-F-LDFAIL, unable to load SYS$PUBLIC_VECTORS.EXE, status = 00000870      halted CPU 0o      halt code = 5    HALT instructions executedk
    PC = 177f4     >>>N ------------------------------------------------------------------------------  ?   We also tried the conversational boot with the debug options:e  '    SYSBOOT>set startup_p1 "MIN"     undt    SYSBOOT>set startup_p2 "YES"   H what doesn't change anything in the behavior and output at boot failure.  H    Is there a possibilty to use the startup debugging features available! under SYSMAN, i.e. something likel  !    SYSMAN>set options/verify=full $    SYSMAN>set options/output=console#    SYSMAN>set options/checkpointingn  I from the SYSBOOT> level to get more information on the reason of failure?       Thanks for any help,t          Horst     --M  ****************************************************************************d)   Horst Drechsel                         eL   Dr. Remeis Observatory                 drechsel@sternwarte.uni-erlangen.deL   Astronomical Institute                             Phone: +49-951-95222-15L   University Erlangen-Nuernberg                        Fax: +49-951-95222-22*   Sternwartstr.7, D-96049 Bamberg, GermanyM  ****************************************************************************K   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:08:17 -0500f' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>r- Subject: RE: File Conversion from VMS to UNIXcT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660E36@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Tom,  H <<<I wish I could provide more info. Just thought I'd float the questionF and get a better idea of what is involved. Seems the more I know aboutG this the better equipped I am to end up with a system that does what wee4 want, for a price that is fair for all involved. <<<  ( Some general comments for consideration:  H - This may not be the case in your example, but platform conversions areF often under quoted as those doing the quote realize that the real costG would scare the Customer away. Those proposing the conversion are often-G counting on change requests to make up the margin they gave up in theirF original quote.k  @ Ensure you either get a fixed price or at least put in some veryH detailed tasks to be completed by the vendor as part of the statement ofG work. Ensure that things like costs of doing functional and performanceoB testing are either included in the quote or the internal costs are1 factored in as part of the overall solution cost.i    G - Does the platform switch include license and support costs of any newiD third party applications or versions such as databases, backup, fileF fragmentation, virus checking (even with Pathworks, one needs a way toH check PC client files stored on the server) etc. Again, additional costs' to be included in the overall proposal.q  F - The backup issue is often overlooked as Customers often are requiredG by law or company policy to maintain access to past data for up to 5-10oE years. Tape media access and compatibility are often issues e.g.. NewoC tape drives proposed may not be able to read DLT3 (or older) media.>H There are ways to address this, but these additional "how do we maintainC access to that older data" costs need to be included in the overalla	 solution.e  E - backup media is also overlooked. With tapes in the range of $125 tocE $180 per tape, if moving to a new system and if a large number of new H tapes are required, then again, these costs need to be factored into the new platform solution.  G - this may not apply in your specific case, but any current commitmentseH to disaster backup sites will need to be considered in the overall costsG as well. As an example, the backup site vendor may not have any systemsnH of the type you are acquiring and they would need to acquire new serversE as well to ensure they meet your requirements. These additional costsh. need to be factored into the overall solution.   Regardss  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantd Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Serviceso Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)  OpenVMS DCL - the original .COM    -----Original Message-----= From: Tom Rymes [mailto:tomnews@rymes.extraneous.junk.net]=20n Sent: March 13, 2003 3:43 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh- Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIXr    3 In article <JXHcDosOffk3@eisner.encompasserve.org>,h   briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:  J > In article <tomnews-F9A170.11444113032003@news.comcast.giganews.com>,=20 > Tomm3 > Rymes <tomnews@rymes.extraneous.junk.net> writes:-H > > Hi folks, I'm back again, a little worse for wear from my tussles=20 > > with@ > > our software vendor. One of our options is a Unixware server (booooo!)=20C > > instead of an Alpha to replace our VAX. Aside from any other=20e> > > considerations of a VMS to UNIX move (like SCO's continued
 viability,=20yB > > O/S features/stability/what-have-you), what are the reasonably expected=20 C > > costs/trouble involved in moving existing files between VMS and  UNIX?=20G > > (Keep in mind we have no TCP/IP stack running on the VAX, but we do> have=20o > > Pathworks) > >=208 > > Basically, they've quoted an outrageous price for=20 > > moving/"converting"4H > > files between the two systems, and I'm preparing to call BS on that.  @ > > Seems to me that other than actually copying the files, some permissions=20H > > to be set, maybe a little directory structure to build, etc there=20H > > shouldn't be much to it. Honestly, I imagine that you could even use  ; > > Pathworks to transfer the files back and forth, using ae Windows/Samba=20= > > host as an intermediary (since the VAX has no TCP/IP).=20e >=20E > Do I understand you correctly that essentialy all your files are=20l> > Pathworks files and the VAX is essentially a PC file server? >=20F > If so then you're absolutely right.  You could copy all the files=20E > using the Pathworks interface and xcopy or your choice of backup=20l
 > utility. >=20J > I'd be mightily tempted to go that route simply because it would be a=20E > rock solid guarantee that the file transfer would not cause file=20e > format issues. >=20H > On the other hand, if you are saying that the files are on your VAX=20H > and you intend to use Pathworks as a tool to get VAX format files from  F > the VAX to the Unix box, because you lack any other interoperable=207 > network connectivity then you are asking for trouble.u   [snip]  H Here's the rub, then. Seems like it is more than I might have thought at  I first blush. We'd be moving database files belonging to a program that=20 F is written in DBL and BASIC, AFAIK. Unfortunately, the files aren't=20I simply PC files normally shared via Pathworks (that would be too easy,=20v now wouldn't it?).  I These files would run on the UNIX platform with a different version of=20hF the same program using DBL on UNIX, too. Not a relational database,=20J either, BTW. The software vendor wants what seems to be an over-the-top=20% amount of $$$ to move these files.=20   H Maybe I'm wrong, but I would imagine that they should have some in-house  E software tools to allow a more or less automated transfer of these=20iH files, no? (They do this for any customer moving from VAX to UNIX, which  * seems to be their big push at this point.)  H I wish I could provide more info. Just thought I'd float the question=20I and get a better idea of what is involved. Seems the more I know about=20BJ this the better equipped I am to end up with a system that does what we=200 want, for a price that is fair for all involved.   Thanks to everyone!o   Tomo   --=20d@ To reply via e-mail, remove the extraneous junk from my address.   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 09:40:13 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org- Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIXN3 Message-ID: <$brbxw43naj2@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  { In article <tomnews-89DDF6.15432013032003@news.comcast.giganews.com>, Tom Rymes <tomnews@rymes.extraneous.junk.net> writes:nK > Here's the rub, then. Seems like it is more than I might have thought at >I > first blush. We'd be moving database files belonging to a program that JF > is written in DBL and BASIC, AFAIK. Unfortunately, the files aren't I > simply PC files normally shared via Pathworks (that would be too easy,   > now wouldn't it?). > I > These files would run on the UNIX platform with a different version of >F > the same program using DBL on UNIX, too. Not a relational database, J > either, BTW. The software vendor wants what seems to be an over-the-top % > amount of $$$ to move these files. i  B If these are really "database files" then maybe there is some sortH of export/backup/dump utility that can produce a standard format archiveA that can then be imported/restored/loaded on the target platform.e   	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 09:58:45 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org- Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX 3 Message-ID: <9OFTavBRffrx@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  b In article <3E70EB94.BEFDE2BA@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: > Frank da Cruz wrote:I >> Right -- ZIP and TAR archives are either all-text or all-binary, so ife8 >> you have a mixture, one or the other will be wrecked. >  > O > If it is a one time transfer, then ZIP/TAR would also waste time. You have tooV > zip it, then transfer it, then unzipt it. Might as well send the files uncompressed.  J He has a large file transfer utility (Pathworks).  It is not clear that he* has a high speed serial connection (LAT?).  A It is clear that he does not have an end-to-end high speed serialfA connection.  Going to an archive format saves you from the hasslee> of doing two directory-tree to directory-tree transfers with a PC in the middle.h   	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 11:25:53 -0500& From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)- Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX 1 Message-ID: <b4svqh$1jl$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>i  3 In article <9OFTavBRffrx@eisner.encompasserve.org>,s"  <briggs@encompasserve.org> wrote:C : It is clear that he does not have an end-to-end high speed serial C : connection.  Going to an archive format saves you from the hassles@ : of doing two directory-tree to directory-tree transfers with a : PC in the middle.  : J Again, ZIP and similar archives save each file in local format; they offerI no conversion of text-file formats from one platform to another, at leastaJ not unless you find a way of doing all your text files in one archive, and! all your binary files in another.    - Frankp   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 11:42:51 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org- Subject: Re: File Conversion from VMS to UNIX73 Message-ID: <d7CXs+lV3ikD@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  Z In article <b4svqh$1jl$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>, fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes:5 > In article <9OFTavBRffrx@eisner.encompasserve.org>,o$ >  <briggs@encompasserve.org> wrote:E > : It is clear that he does not have an end-to-end high speed serialnE > : connection.  Going to an archive format saves you from the hassle B > : of doing two directory-tree to directory-tree transfers with a > : PC in the middle.a > : L > Again, ZIP and similar archives save each file in local format; they offerK > no conversion of text-file formats from one platform to another, at leastsL > not unless you find a way of doing all your text files in one archive, and# > all your binary files in another.-   No.  You don't have to do that.e  E I just used ZIP to copy a text file and a binary file from VAX to PC.>  F The text file started as variable length records with implied carriageI control.  It arrived as stream of bytes with line feed record separators.t9 Notepad didn't do it justice.  Edit handled it just fine.d  @ The binary file was a .EXE.  It arrived as a stream of bytes.  IB did a binary mode FTP back to the VAX and got a file that was byte# for byte identical to the original.n    B Since the target platform in the problem description is Unix, thisD particular conversion convention would have worked out quite nicely.A The text files would have arrived as text and the binary files asu (possibly unusable) binary.c  D I went on to test some other possibilities.  VAX stream format filesD go across with the CRLF's converted to naked LF's by default.  I canD see a potential for difficulties there if some of those stream filesB were actually Pathworks files that are used as binary files on the! PC side.  Goodbye data integrity.s  G An indexed file went across with just the record data.  All the on disk@E stuff (prologues, area descriptors, bucket checksums and whatnot) wasnG ignored.  Of course everyone should realize going in that indexed filesP' are likely to require special handling.e  C I didn't play with the options to convert CRLF to LF or vice versa.iA I figured that would be likely to cause problems with binary fileaD integrity.  Besides, the default is perfect for the problem at hand.  C Out of curiosity, I restored the ZIP archive on VMS.  The text filenG restored as STREAM_LF.  Sensible.  The .EXE also restored as STREAM_LF.0 And that makes sense too.l  > I'm a more comfortable with a transfer technique that involvesA conversion from local format to archive format on the one end andiE from archive format to local format on the other than with a transfer C technique that involves conversion from local format to wire formatoE to local format on a VAX to PC transfer and then from local format to 5 wire format to local format on a PC to Unix transfer.4   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 16:50:05 -00001- From: "Phil Sharpe" <phil_sharpe@hotmail.com>D& Subject: Help needed adding Vax memory4 Message-ID: <b4t17u$cn5$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>   Hi,53 We've just added 64Mb (4 SIMMs) to a Vax 4000-105A.4: Shows up OK (128Mb total) at low level (>>>), but a SH MEM3 under OpenVMS VAX 7.1 still shows 64Mb main memory.   > Everyone I've spoken to says it's going to be a sysgen/autogen9 thing but, like me, noone's used them in anger for years.0; (I vaguely remember all those different stages with/without@/ feedback etc. and fiddling with modparams.dat).C  < Can anyone shed any light on the simplest & safest course of0 action to get VMS to recognize the extra memory.   Thanks in advance, Phil Sharpet   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:01:46 -0500a% From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@hp.com> * Subject: Re: Help needed adding Vax memory& Message-ID: <3E720AFA.34015052@hp.com>  D In SYS$SYSTEM:MODPARAMS.DAT add the line (or modify it if it exists) MEMSIZE = 2048*{# of MB}  2 $ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN GETDATA TESTFILES NOFEEDBACK$ Review SYS$SYSTEM:AGEN$PARAMS.REPORT If this looks OK then 7   $ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN SETPARAMS {SETPARAMS or REBOOT}v1 else modify MODPARAMS.DAT and execute above againo  C Once rebooted after the SETPARAMS phase of AUTOGEN has been run youm# should see the correct memory size.v     Phil Sharpe wrote: >  > Hi,s5 > We've just added 64Mb (4 SIMMs) to a Vax 4000-105A.o< > Shows up OK (128Mb total) at low level (>>>), but a SH MEM5 > under OpenVMS VAX 7.1 still shows 64Mb main memory.  > @ > Everyone I've spoken to says it's going to be a sysgen/autogen; > thing but, like me, noone's used them in anger for years.E= > (I vaguely remember all those different stages with/without 1 > feedback etc. and fiddling with modparams.dat).  > > > Can anyone shed any light on the simplest & safest course of2 > action to get VMS to recognize the extra memory. >  > Thanks in advance,
 > Phil Sharpec   -- lC Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NYe0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan+ 	- Mark.Jilson@hp.com				- since 1975 or so  	- http://www.jilly.baka.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:06:24 GMT 7 From: brad@.homeportal.2wire.net (Bradford J. Hamilton) * Subject: Re: Help needed adding Vax memory- Message-ID: <k_nca.96541$qi4.54502@rwcrnsc54>e  d In article <b4t17u$cn5$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, "Phil Sharpe" <phil_sharpe@hotmail.com> writes: >Hi,4 >We've just added 64Mb (4 SIMMs) to a Vax 4000-105A.; >Shows up OK (128Mb total) at low level (>>>), but a SH MEM04 >under OpenVMS VAX 7.1 still shows 64Mb main memory. >R? >Everyone I've spoken to says it's going to be a sysgen/autogen0: >thing but, like me, noone's used them in anger for years.< >(I vaguely remember all those different stages with/without0 >feedback etc. and fiddling with modparams.dat). >y= >Can anyone shed any light on the simplest & safest course of 1 >action to get VMS to recognize the extra memory.e  O Please refer to the OpenVMS FAQ article 5.7, entitled, "Why doesn't OpenVMS seeC= the new memory I just added?" for an answer to your question..   The FAQ can be found at:  1 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/openvms_faq.htmla  < OK, now *I* have a question - why does the hp website change   www.openvms.compaq.com 	to:w   h71000.www7.hp.com  H I think it would confuse the casual user - if one need to refer to an hp6 website, instead of a compaq web site, then how about:   www.openvms.hp.com  . Of course, the 'Open' could remain silent.	:-)   >l >Thanks in advance,n >Phil Sharpe >b >o  A _________________________________________________________________o0 Bradford J. Hamilton			"All opinions are my own"/ bMradAhamiPltSon@atMtAbi.cPoSm		"Lose the MAPS".   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:18:43 -0000b- From: "Phil Sharpe" <phil_sharpe@hotmail.com>O* Subject: Re: Help needed adding Vax memory4 Message-ID: <b4t2tl$odb$1$830fa78d@news.demon.co.uk>   Many thanks to both of you. D (I've become used to misdirection, oops, I mean redirection from HP)   Phil  D "Bradford J. Hamilton" <brad@.homeportal.2wire.net> wrote in message' news:k_nca.96541$qi4.54502@rwcrnsc54...lD > In article <b4t17u$cn5$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, "Phil Sharpe"! <phil_sharpe@hotmail.com> writes:  > >Hi,6 > >We've just added 64Mb (4 SIMMs) to a Vax 4000-105A.= > >Shows up OK (128Mb total) at low level (>>>), but a SH MEM 6 > >under OpenVMS VAX 7.1 still shows 64Mb main memory. > >0A > >Everyone I've spoken to says it's going to be a sysgen/autogen < > >thing but, like me, noone's used them in anger for years.> > >(I vaguely remember all those different stages with/without2 > >feedback etc. and fiddling with modparams.dat). > >e? > >Can anyone shed any light on the simplest & safest course ofs3 > >action to get VMS to recognize the extra memory.a >,E > Please refer to the OpenVMS FAQ article 5.7, entitled, "Why doesn'th OpenVMS seeI? > the new memory I just added?" for an answer to your question., >c > The FAQ can be found at: >r3 > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/openvms_faq.html  > > > OK, now *I* have a question - why does the hp website change >  > www.openvms.compaq.com to: >w > h71000.www7.hp.com >nJ > I think it would confuse the casual user - if one need to refer to an hp8 > website, instead of a compaq web site, then how about: >. > www.openvms.hp.com >k0 > Of course, the 'Open' could remain silent. :-) >0 > >0 > >Thanks in advance,Z > >Phil Sharpe > >o > >  >jC > _________________________________________________________________80 > Bradford J. Hamilton "All opinions are my own"0 > bMradAhamiPltSon@atMtAbi.cPoSm "Lose the MAPS"   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:12:08 -0500T& From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>X Subject: Re: How many other sites had their CSLG licenses expire at midnight last night?8 Message-ID: <79347vs3t84uerpacdak7sjcdkokoo7620@4ax.com>  N On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:26:04 +0000 (UTC), bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau) wrote:  K >Since >300 lines is a bit much to post to a NG, I put the source (Fortran)0> >to me WC program in the anonymous ftp area of umtof.umd.edu .  N Thanks for that -- please note that when you copy this file, be sure that TABS remain TABS ;<)o  O My first attempt defaulted to converting tabs to spaces, and the resulting .FORn# file will not compile successfully.5I -------------------------------------------------------------------------5I David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot com3I Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)0I -------------------------------------------------------------------------1   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 09:10:49 -08001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)1. Subject: HP explains quarterly results numbers= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0303140910.611802b5@posting.google.com>1  F HP issued a press release on Friday addressing several of the concerns# about its latest quarterly results.a  # With regard to PC division profits:e  F "In our latest Q1, we reported a profit of $33 million in our Personal> Systems business  a sequential improvement of $101 million in> operating performance from a loss of $68 million the precedingF quarter. On a combined company basis, the PC business lost $52 millionD a year ago. The improvement year over year was $85 million. By every@ measure, this represents real profitability and real performance
 improvement.".  F Finally, in response to continued speculation around revenue loss, theE company reported that for the 2002 fourth calendar quarter period, inaD line with the reporting periods of many of its peers, revenues would? have been up 9% sequentially. Wayman added: "One month into theUD company's second fiscal quarter, revenue for the combined company is up 3% year over year."  / http://hpnow.corp.hp.com/news/03q2/030313m3.htme   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 05:48:24 -0800( From: baby_p_nut@yahoo.com (Baby Peanut)7 Subject: Re: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down? < Message-ID: <c5cf6e8.0303140548.6cb34452@posting.google.com>  ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3E7157F8.832FBB0C@fsi.net>... > VAXVMS wrote:. > > 8 > > I got a phone call this morning from someone who had; > > talked to Mrs. C- the message has been relayed to David 7 > > and he'll be looking into things as soon as he can.  > G > Perhaps someone has discovered that since VMS cannot be attacked, the G > attack must be launched against something running on it that's not as  > bullet-proof as VMS itself.m  F Montagar seems to be just a bunch of thieves anyway.  They took my $30, and gave me a CD-ROM that I'm locked out of.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:33:43 -0500f! From: VAXVMS <bounce@notmail.com>w7 Subject: RE: Is http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ down?oK Message-ID: <BA52530E3149734A9BAABDBBFA808E4903027BD8@rlghncst964.usps.gov>   ' Baby peanut disparaged Montagar thusly:r >w= >"David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in messagem$ >news:<3E7157F8.832FBB0C@fsi.net>... >> VAXVMS wrote: >> >9 >> > I got a phone call this morning from someone who hadi< >> > talked to Mrs. C- the message has been relayed to David8 >> > and he'll be looking into things as soon as he can. >>H >> Perhaps someone has discovered that since VMS cannot be attacked, theH >> attack must be launched against something running on it that's not as >> bullet-proof as VMS itself. >nG >Montagar seems to be just a bunch of thieves anyway.  They took my $30b- >and gave me a CD-ROM that I'm locked out of.  >n >u  ) I must strongly object to your assertion.   . David C. is honest and a stand-up guy to boot.   ; I think enough of him to buy webspace and an email account t on whiteice.com]  ; Explain what you mean by "locked out of" in greater detail:e    Tell me (or the group) exactly:    1.	what you're trying to do, r  & 2.	what hardware you're running it on,    3.	what commands you're entering  % 4.	what messages you're getting back.   # If you're having a problem, either d   1.	we'll straighten you out, or   ; 2.	if your CD's screwed up, I'm certain that David will be n' 	glad to exchange it for a replacement.E  D I foot my posts with information on how I may be contacted directly.  E Since you apparently don't care to do so, you have to accept the factrH that David has no way to contact you and respond to any complaint which 
 you may have.a   WWWebb ========================  William W. Webb - EMS Operations) OpenVMS Systems Support - USPS DSSC Annexf, 4730 Hargrove Road, Raleigh, NC 27616-2874  > 919.325.7500 x4186  <FirstInitialLastNameAtEmailDotUSPSDotGov>   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 07:44:05 -08001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)d< Subject: Re: MicroVAX disk upgrade options (new if possible)= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0303140744.3fa835af@posting.google.com>   d "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message news:<CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGENGGMAA.tom@kednos.com>...J > Is there no way to take a larger drive and make it appear to be only 1GBJ > in size so as to avoid the address warapping problem with these systems?  E You could put the disk behind an HSZ controller and present as a diskA) unit a partition of 1 GB or less in size.R   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Mar 2003 23:49:08 -0800, From: mcbill20@hotmail.com (Bill McLaughlin)" Subject: Re: More Oracle weirdness< Message-ID: <e9cbc4f2.0303132349.d0926bd@posting.google.com>  D Well, after all the trouble trying to get Oracle 9i rl2 running on aC box with only 256mb, I went ahead and bought a PWS500au with 640mb.E  C The installation seemed to go fine. I was able to then run the DBCA0F program to create a database. However, the DBCA took three hours or soE before dying with an XLIB resource error. I found some information on:A the web that indicates that this is a known problem with Java ande Xwindows on VMS.  D Since it didn't die until after the database was created, I only hadB to do a few things (passwords, etc.) manually. After that, SQLPlus
 worked great.   A I then tried to compile a Pro-C program only to discover that thesB precompilers were missing. I found an old Metalink article statingE that as of 8.1.6 the precompilers were part of the client and I would ? have to re-run the install program and this time specify cliente instead of database.  @ Once the installer got started, it kept popping up error windowsC saying "Error writing file /$1$dka1000/ORACLE9i/lib32/libntns9.olb" ? along with MANY other files. There were buttons labeled "help",pE "retry", "ignore" and "cancel". I first tried help but it just stated6D that an error had occurred and sometimes this was due to disk space.C This disk was only about 20% full so that was not an issue. I triedaF retry and of course, the same thing would pop up. I did a directory to< check the files. They were present and had the correct owner1 ([ORACLE9]) and protection( s:rwd,o:rwd,g:r,w:r).p  F I tried ignore and after about 10 or so the install would fail with anB error asking if I wanted to cancel just this product or the entire install.  B I got an idea and the second time around, I would first delete theB file and then hit retry and it would seem to go on. (I had alreadyA verified that the installer was just copying a new version of the F exact same file). I had to do this 50 or 60 times and the progress barF eventually got to 100%. However, I noticed that the same files (almost+ all .olb) were being copied multiple times.0  * Anyone else out there using 9i Rl2 on VMS?    Any ideas would be appreciated.    Thanks.p Bill McLaughlino        q mcbill20@hotmail.com (Bill McLaughlin) wrote in message news:<e9cbc4f2.0302112240.33676930@posting.google.com>... C > After a supposed successful install of Oracle 9i on VMS 7.3, I ammC > seeing a strange message when I start up many of the executables, # > including sqlplus and orapwd.exe:t > N > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > $ sqlplus F > %SYSTEM-I-EMULATED, an instruction not implemented on this processor2 > was emulated at PC=00000000001D9C70, PS=0000001BF > %SYSTEM-I-EMULATED, an instruction not implemented on this processor2 > was emulated at PC=00000000001D9EE0, PS=0000001BF > %SYSTEM-I-EMULATED, an instruction not implemented on this processor2 > was emulated at PC=00000000001D9EE4, PS=0000001BF > %SYSTEM-I-EMULATED, an instruction not implemented on this processor2 > was emulated at PC=00000000001D9F28, PS=0000001BF > %SYSTEM-I-EMULATED, an instruction not implemented on this processor2 > was emulated at PC=00000000001D9F2C, PS=0000001B > F > SQL*Plus: Release 9.2.0.2.0 - Production on Tue Feb 11 23:24:08 2003 > E > Copyright (c) 1982, 2002, Oracle Corporation.  All rights reserved.J >  > Enter user-name: a > O > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------1 > G > In addition, the so called "documentation" is unbelievable. There areiD > so many inaccuracies and missing pieces in the 9i VMS InstallationG > Guide and Administration Guides that I can't imagine a non VMS experto. > being able to ever figure out how to run it.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:55:11 +0000 (UTC)l+ From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)n3 Subject: Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrantso+ Message-ID: <b4scef$s9l$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>e  q In article <+zcs3cEmQN2o@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: c >In article <3E6F9A5C.3A894F9E@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:1% >> re: Boycott of "french fries" etc.a >> m >tG >   Since the largest supplier of french fries is clearly that American-@ >   company from Elk Grove, and they haven't changed thier menu,D >   an actual boycott would simply hurt the already damaged American; >   economy (but might be good for the American wasteline).e >aO >> Does this mean that French's Mustard will have to change their brand name ton >> "Freedom's mustard" ? >tK >   Who uses yellow mustard?  Nice jar of Botje's or Plochman's, thank you.n >r  K According to todays Daily Mail the latest idiocy is that a US Congresswoman N Ginny Brown-Waite (Florida Republican) is putting a "Bring Home our Dead Bill"L to congress demanding that US servicemen buried in France be disinterred and  bought back to the US. To quote   L "The remains of our brave servicemen should be buried in patriotic soil, notF in a country that has turned its back on the U.S. and on the memory of% Americans who fought and died there."     
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:02:58 GMTeL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")3 Subject: Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants-6 Message-ID: <00A1CD5E.AE75688E@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  Y In article <b4scef$s9l$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) writes: r >In article <+zcs3cEmQN2o@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:d >>In article <3E6F9A5C.3A894F9E@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:& >>> re: Boycott of "french fries" etc. >>>  >>H >>   Since the largest supplier of french fries is clearly that AmericanA >>   company from Elk Grove, and they haven't changed thier menu,.E >>   an actual boycott would simply hurt the already damaged AmericanC< >>   economy (but might be good for the American wasteline). >>P >>> Does this mean that French's Mustard will have to change their brand name to >>> "Freedom's mustard" ?  >>L >>   Who uses yellow mustard?  Nice jar of Botje's or Plochman's, thank you. >> >dL >According to todays Daily Mail the latest idiocy is that a US CongresswomanO >Ginny Brown-Waite (Florida Republican) is putting a "Bring Home our Dead Bill" M >to congress demanding that US servicemen buried in France be disinterred and ! >bought back to the US. To quote   > M >"The remains of our brave servicemen should be buried in patriotic soil, not G >in a country that has turned its back on the U.S. and on the memory of-& >Americans who fought and died there."  * Or in other words, "Lafayette, screw you."   -- Alans    O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056-M  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025-O ===============================================================================e   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:40:34 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> 3 Subject: Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants-; Message-ID: <01KTIPU2114G9H1MPS@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a  J > "The remains of our brave servicemen should be buried in patriotic soil= , notSH > in a country that has turned its back on the U.S. and on the memory of' > Americans who fought and died there."h >=20, > Or in other words, "Lafayette, screw you."  G Well, one can't have it both ways.  If we agree that the sins of the=20eK fathers should not be visited upon the sons (i.e. some injustice done by=20pJ your ancestors to my ancestors does not give me the right to kill you),=20I then neither should their virtues.  The fact that Lafayette helped the=20*J colonies then is irrelevant now (except as a counter-example if someone=20K claims that France was always anti-U.S.), just as Russia (correctly) has=20dJ no problems being on the same side as France in the current debate even=20& though Napol=E9on once invaded Russia.  J And, of course, the people who demonstrate for peace in Germany are not=20J "Hitler's children", as some U.S. newspapers captioned their pictures. =20E (A few years ago, the same folks were the fifth column of communism.)-  H While we're on the subject, some pundits in Europe have pointed out thatG "French" as used as an adjective with respect to sex (i.e. oral) shouldDF also be changed to some other term.  Perhaps a real perspective on theE "land of the free" can be gained by realising that many states in theaA U.S. still outlaw various types of sex between consenting adults.e  K As the character in Easy Rider says, the same folks who will talk to you=20dH all day about individual freedom just can't handle it when they see a=20 free individual.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:58:08 -0400o0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>3 Subject: Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants / Message-ID: <3E71FC0D.1011C388@vl.videotron.ca>    Phillip Helbig wrote:hJ > While we're on the subject, some pundits in Europe have pointed out thatI > "French" as used as an adjective with respect to sex (i.e. oral) shouldl& > also be changed to some other term.    Euro-kiss ?????m  M If France were to state that they have nothing against the United States, but L that they have problems with the policies of the current government and hopeG that friendly relations will resume in 2 years when a new government isi0 elected, what would be the reaction in the USA ?  J Is the hatred of France such that americans would vote for Bush Jr in 2004 just to spite France ?  L Or would they realise that France is doing its job of ensuring that there isE no unwarranted war and are in fact heloping the United States protect N themselves against a rogue government who has lost patience and wants to pressK the big red button to start the big fireworks show that will flatten Iraq ?p  K What surprises me is that the media and US government (one and the same, itsG seems) have placed so much focus on France and nothing on Russia China,rM Germany, Canada and all other countries who have criticised and not agreed toc the USA unilateral war.i  N Has it ever occured to the americans (media and public) that the 15 nations inM the security council also represent to some extent the hundreds of nations inbK the UN. There have been debates in the UN with all countries participating,nN and monitored by the security council to get a feel for what the world thinks.K For instance, this is how Canada was able to put forwards it proposal for aeF reasonable schedule with detailed steps that Hussein must undertake toC generate an objective report card that can lead to one and only onedN interpretation, unlike the Blix/Baradei reports which the USa always interpretJ different from the rest fo the world. (Canada is not presently part of the security council).   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:48:41 -0500S* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>3 Subject: Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrantsh2 Message-ID: <zrmdnZZeQ8xgiO-jXTWcrg@metrocast.net>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in messagei) news:3E71FC0D.1011C388@vl.videotron.ca...    ...a  K > If France were to state that they have nothing against the United States,f butMI > that they have problems with the policies of the current government andg hopeI > that friendly relations will resume in 2 years when a new government ism2 > elected, what would be the reaction in the USA ? >eL > Is the hatred of France such that americans would vote for Bush Jr in 2004 > just to spite France ?  D Some might.  But a lot more might just because we don't particularly; appreciate having outsiders meddle in our election process.    > K > Or would they realise that France is doing its job of ensuring that therei isG > no unwarranted war and are in fact heloping the United States protect J > themselves against a rogue government who has lost patience and wants to presseK > the big red button to start the big fireworks show that will flatten Iraqe ?X  I That job belongs in the U.N.  It has nothing to do with trying to suggest  whom we should vote for.   > J > What surprises me is that the media and US government (one and the same, itI > seems) have placed so much focus on France and nothing on Russia China,sL > Germany, Canada and all other countries who have criticised and not agreed to > the USA unilateral war.'  K Just because the thugs in the White House don't subscribe to the philosophyoK advanced in "Alice's Restaurant" doesn't mean they've never listened to it.n  F To paraphrase:  "If just one <country> does, then they'll think <it's>K really sick...  But if <a bunch of countries> do, then they'll think it's ah
 movement."  H As long as the Administration can present the impasse at the U.N. as theH result of obnoxious French behavior (something we have some acquaintanceI with, though much less so in recent decades) rather than as being a largegK international coalition against *us*, then its importance can be dismissed.    >tE > Has it ever occured to the americans (media and public) that the 15r
 nations inL > the security council also represent to some extent the hundreds of nations in	 > the UN.o  I Not if the Administration can help it.  Their consistent claim is that if E the Security Council doesn't do what we say it should, it will becometI irrelevant.  If they instead said that the rest of the world would becomegL irrelevant, even the American public might start to wonder - so they've beenJ keeping that connection under wraps (with the whole-hearted cooperation ofJ most of the television media, though print media have at least explored it to some extent).  D  There have been debates in the UN with all countries participating,H > and monitored by the security council to get a feel for what the world thinks.aK > For instance, this is how Canada was able to put forwards it proposal forh aoH > reasonable schedule with detailed steps that Hussein must undertake toE > generate an objective report card that can lead to one and only oneoF > interpretation, unlike the Blix/Baradei reports which the USa always	 interpretcL > different from the rest fo the world. (Canada is not presently part of the > security council).  J That's too bad, because if Canada were on the Security Council and plannedL to vote against us that might get a bit more attention.  Of course, the factI that the British are so opposed to our plans that Tony Blair is in actual J danger of losing his job is starting to filter down to the unwashed massesI too - perhaps that will help.  And it didn't hurt for Rumsfeld to mention-I that we might have to proceed without British support the other day, evenmL though he recanted it later:  Spain and Bulgaria may carry equal weight whenA it comes to a vote at the U.N., but not with U.S. public opinion.1   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:18:15 GMTn# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 3 Subject: Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants J Message-ID: <H1pca.245135$UXa.171079@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagef, news:zrmdnZZeQ8xgiO-jXTWcrg@metrocast.net... >i? > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message + > news:3E71FC0D.1011C388@vl.videotron.ca...w >  > ...r > E > > If France were to state that they have nothing against the Uniteda States,e > buti< > > that they have problems with the policies of the current government and > hope= > > that friendly relations will resume in 2 years when a new"
 government isr4 > > elected, what would be the reaction in the USA ? > >uF > > Is the hatred of France such that americans would vote for Bush Jr in 2004r > > just to spite France ? > F > Some might.  But a lot more might just because we don't particularly= > appreciate having outsiders meddle in our election process.   A Just as well outsiders don't get involved. Imagine how messy THAT E would be added to the current situation where American 'insiders' canoB stuff ballot boxes, deny voters the right to even reach the ballotD boxes, require them to produce multiple pieces of ID which then they8 summarily dismiss, and then deny those that did vote the; constitutional right to have their vote counted accurately.i      B > > Or would they realise that France is doing its job of ensuring
 that there > isA > > no unwarranted war and are in fact heloping the United StatesI protectcC > > themselves against a rogue government who has lost patience anda wants to > pressh@ > > the big red button to start the big fireworks show that will flatten Iraq > ?o >rC > That job belongs in the U.N.  It has nothing to do with trying tor suggest  > whom we should vote for. >g > > F > > What surprises me is that the media and US government (one and the same,o > itD > > seems) have placed so much focus on France and nothing on Russia China,C > > Germany, Canada and all other countries who have criticised andx
 not agreed > to > > the USA unilateral war.s >eB > Just because the thugs in the White House don't subscribe to the
 philosophyF > advanced in "Alice's Restaurant" doesn't mean they've never listened to it. >gA > To paraphrase:  "If just one <country> does, then they'll think  <it's>F > really sick...  But if <a bunch of countries> do, then they'll think it's a > movement." >fF > As long as the Administration can present the impasse at the U.N. as then= > result of obnoxious French behavior (something we have someo acquaintanceE > with, though much less so in recent decades) rather than as being a4 large0B > international coalition against *us*, then its importance can be
 dismissed.    D French...obnoxious behaviour? Perhaps Americans ought to take a longE hard look at their political leaders with the lights on and then do an, side-by-side comparison with French leaders.   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 09:35:49 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org( Subject: Re: One version of a file ONLY.3 Message-ID: <paLMGWm0ZIFd@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  S In article <v71pbsdk8c0u34@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:C0 > Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:E > :> Is there a way in VMS to specify that there is to be one versiontD > :> of a file ONLY, meaning that the creation of a second file with > :> the same name would fail? > 6 > : Create the file with an explicit version of 32767. > 4 > You'd also need to $set directory/version_limit=1.  ; The directory version limit is a default file version limit ? for new file names created in a directory.  It has no effect ona( files that are already in the directory.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:42:08 GMTj9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>s3 Subject: Re: Open VMS Laser Printing and Overlaying ? Message-ID: <5785c6d24b.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>n  + In message <7MAR200320163047@gerg.tamu.edu>l2           carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) wrote:  0 > Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com> writes...; > }In article <3E68DCDA.4D37C041@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezeiu+ > }<jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote:o > } G > }> I do not beleive that DCPS actually has the ability to insert yourLF > }> own code between pages, but perhaps Paul Anderson can jump in and > }> prove me wrong. > } D > }There's no DCPS feature to do this.  As has been pointed out, theE > }original poster will need to roll his own PostScript to do what hee+ > }wants, or purchase a commercial product.  > }   > }JetForm is now owned by Adobe > } < > }   <http://www.planetpdf.com/mainpage.asp?WebPageID=1878> > } ; > }and I don't know what's happened to the JetForm product.r > }  > }Pauli > E > There is an example of how to do this (this = redefine the showpagei" > to do this) installed with DCPS. > ! > See DCPS$LAYUP:CONFIDENTIAL.PS.r > E > You use the example by inserting it into the device control libraryr( > (SYS$LIBRARY:DCPS$DEVCTL.TLB) and then& > $ PRINT/SETUP=CONFIDENTIAL some.file  K If this is the example I played with about 5 years ago, be aware that it is K an OVERlay - usually people want an UNDERlay, i.e. text on top of somethingf that looks like a watermark. m     > G > Not exactly the most extensive of examples, but it could be helpfull.h > 
 > --- Carl   --  
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 03:17:33 -0500f* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <WsGcneITW4-9DeyjXTWcqA@metrocast.net>  ; "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messageg7 news:b096a4ee.0303132008.28ec95d9@posting.google.com...e7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message . news:<XLidnQe3OeYySu2jXTWcqw@metrocast.net>...? > > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messager; > > news:b096a4ee.0303121910.6f366ecc@posting.google.com...h > >u > > ...e > >n1 > > > But Bill, you're lightning quick to condemnm > >lL > > You've hardly shown yourself to be a sufficiently neutral participant to beL > > qualified even to post thoughtful assessments, let alone such hyperbolicK > > garbage.  I haven't been 'quick' to condemn anything, and in fact untilt the- >-F > Well, you were justifying current Pales. violence by what Israel did> > in 1948 "stealing there homes" as you put it. I'd say that's > condemnation of Israel.   I I'd say you'd better pay closer attention to what you read.  I've clearlydK stated, on more than one occasion, that my problems with Israel date mostlyTJ from the Rabin assassination.  And while I've also stated that I felt thatB less recent history also contributed to making the attitude of theJ Palestinians *understandable*, I've placed the responsibility primarily onI the manner in which Israel was created by the U.N., not on Israel itself.r   ...v  $ > And I said I wan't a good debater.  F On that point we can agree, and (as I noted above) a major part of theK reason is that you don't understand what you read.  I'm about to respond to K the material that 'John' provided, and have noted three additional articlesgL (all by apparently Jewish Israelis) from one of the publications he referred% to that I hope you'll take a look at.t   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 03:18:03 -0500o* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <W4acnZ1ymbyjDeyjXTWcoA@metrocast.net>  J [Sorry for the delayed response - I was away most of Wednesday and part of
 Thursday.]  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageC news:qUsba.214178$UXa.51362@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...-   ...-  G > For some background, try the following. Be advised that some of these2D > sites are not 'independent' in that they may contain commentary byH > people who are rather 'close' to the goings on, or are mouthpieces forC > the parties. That's why I still recommend some of the more widelyi= > respected publication mentioned earlier for a somewhat more B > dispassionate viewpoint. This list is obviously not complete nor- > necessarily representative of all opinions.a >m > Rabin Proposal3 > http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH087u0o  L Considering that the above was an Israeli government article, it appeared toK attempt to be (and may actually have been, though I'm not well-qualified toi judge) reasonably unbiased.a  H > http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/watch/Peacewatch/peacewatch1998/180 > .htm  D Unlike your second reference.  Rummaging around the site disclosed aE significant pro-Israel bias, and a quick glance at the organization's F leadership revealed a far higher proportion of names suggesting JewishC origin than Arabic.  But perhaps most interesting was the number of L leadership people in common with the Project for a New American Century (theG 'might makes right' crowd behind the current Administration approach toe Iraq).   >e > Barak Proposal. > http://www.iris.org.il/divided_jerusalem.htm  I Well, that was illuminating - for the rather strange proposal itself, andaD for some of the reasons the authors despised it (e.g., the expressedH necessity of retaining control of Jerusalem for clearly religious ratherJ than strategic reasons).  Unlike the Israeli government site, this one wasH clearly hard-line right-wing - but it does give one more appreciation of6 some of what Barak had to deal with on the home front.  C > http://www.hdip.org/Mustafa/why_palestinians_could_not_accept.htm>  K Thank you for providing the above articulate explanation of the Palestiniana
 viewpoint.  A > http://israelemb.org/sanfran/News&Media/background/pa_rheto.htmn  J And of the Israeli response to it.  It all sounds pretty reasonable, untilH one considers that it does not address the blatant illegality (under theI Geneva Convention) of the settlements (and since the illegality was clear1I before they were built, there's no excuse for suggesting that they shoulddG now be retained as faits accomplis), the substantial difference betweensC Palestinian rule under Israeli sovereignty and outright Palestinianm@ sovereignty for several areas of significance (and the resultingK checkerboarding of the proposed Palestinian state), and the assumption thatdL somehow Israel has the right to exist as 'a Jewish state' even if that keepsH it from taking responsibility for the consequences of its actions (e.g.,F either the acceptance of the people it conquered in the 1948 war - theC 'right of return', or the return of their land to them as part of a, Palestinian state).e  J It also glosses over the difference between the expectations of a powerfulA democratic nation like Israel and an occupied population like thewL Palestinians whose offensive capabilities are pretty much limited to blowing. themselves up or the occasional sniper attack.  H > http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0101/a > rticle/010111d.htmlc  K Another impassioned presentation of the Israeli viewpoint.  But, yet again, H while imploring one to believe that the settlers are not any part of theK problem (despite the clear statements of the Palestinians to the contrary), J it conveniently ignores the fact that, problem or not, they're illegal andF should be abandoned.  And, yet again, when championing 'compromise' itF assumes that it only relates to those portions of the discussion whichJ Israel has not taken off the table up front as non-negotiable (despite theE fact that some of these off-the-table areas are eminently debatable)..  L But the publication in which it appears is well worth investigating further.I While I've only just scratched the surface, I will draw your attention toeI the first article in the issue and to the two articles bracketing the onehL you cited:  all are written by (apparently Jewish) Israelis, and all present' a view far more consistent with my own.i  L http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0101/article
 /010111a.html-L http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0101/article
 /010111c.html L http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0101/article
 /010111e.html-  3 > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/390629.stm-  J Nothing worthy of comment there, and I'm getting too tired to read furtherI tonight.  I appreciate the references and they certainly helped deepen mysL acquaintance with various aspects of the problem.  But while they changed myK perception of an occasional point (e.g., I think Rabin may not have been as K close to peace as I had thought - perhaps the impression came from how muchpK closer he seemed to have gotten than anyone before him) they did not changesK my general view of the situation or of the degree of bias reflected in somen of the discussion here.    - bill   >t >p	 > Generalu6 > http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/07/brooks.htm3 > http://www.freeman.org/m_online/jan03/sherman.htme3 > http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/arafatbio.htmls   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:01:56 +0000 (UTC)t+ From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)t: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <b4scr4$s9l$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>d  _ In article <pc6dnfM71-8pQe2jXTWcqg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  >U/ >"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageeA >news:5NHba.5371$a41.2778@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...p >m >....3 >0G >> Hypothetically (or not), if the US unilaterally invades Iraq without:I >> U.N. approval, then de facto the U.S. is in violation of internationalwI >> law regarding the waging of 'aggressive war'. The U.N. could then callpI >> for the disarmament of the U.S. and the imposition of sanctions on them >> U.S.w >> >> True or False?i >tK >True, with the qualification that I'm no expert on 'international law' ande, >can't speak to the details of its dictates. >eM >1.  The U.N. has *not* approved independent action against Iraq at this time K >by a member state:  read resolution 1441, and then read resolution 678 for J >an example of how such approval is worded when granting it is the intent.L >Dubya and his thugs haven't even a fig leaf to cover them in this area:  asJ >is normal practice, resolution 1441 'refers to' many previous resolutionsH >(including 678), but this does not serve to *transfer* resolution 678'sK >approval of such independent action (specifically extended before the GulfbI >War to support the liberation of Kuwait) to the current (very different)tJ >situation.  Thus the degree to which Iraq may or may not be in complianceG >with resolution 1441 is irrelevant to the issue of action without U.N.B
 >approval. > K A couple of nights ago Newnight on BBC2 showed footage of the US Ambassador K at the time of resolution 1441 explicitly stating that 1441 did not providehN any automaticity, that the resolution did not provide an automatic trigger for. war without further security council approval.B This was one of the main reasons that 1441 was passed unanimously.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University b      G >2.  Lacking such U.N. approval, the war would without doubt constituteeG >aggression on the part of the U.S.:  no imminent threat by Iraq to our I >country exists (or has even been claimed to exist:  our own intelligencewK >services have stated that action against us by Iraq is likely *only* if we" >*do* start a war).a > I >3.  Thus the U.N. *could* take action against us, but only if we did not,J >veto such action (which one might consider unlikely).  Unless the GeneralL >Assembly (where no one has veto power) has any ability to act independently) >from the Security Council in such areas.  >  >- billr >' >c >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:33:27 +0000e' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyo: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants. Message-ID: <3E71CC17.3040303@nospamn.sun.com>  ; The problem with most conflicts in the world is that peoplea= spend far to much time looking back at ancient history. Using $ it to justify their current actions.   Cromwell in Ireland etc.  7 Britain may well have bodged the partition of Palestine16 and Egypt may also have sold the Palestinians down the6 river, but neither of these historical events have any: impact on the current situation because just like Cromwell$ in Ireland they are ancient history.  8 In this case you have Israel the middle-easts superpower8 well armed with tanks, fixed wing planes and helicopters3 and Naval ships ranged against a poorly armed groupG of millitants.  6 The suicide bomb, pipe bomb, random sniper attacks etc; are the only way that a group like this can respond againste what is overwhelming force.t  8 Israels eye of an eye tooth for a tooth response to each6 attack which inevitably will be against their civilian8 population (its difficult to shoot down a fixed wing jet1 with an AK47) simply serves to fuel the conflict.a  : Sadly neither side has a leader with the vision to realise: that this is a conflict that neither group can win. Israel; cannot ethically cleanse themselves of the Palestinians noru8 can they stop terrorist incursions into their territory.  8 Israels increasingly tough response to terrorist attacks7 doesn't seem to have had any impact on the frequency ora5 destructiveness of the attacks themselves and so thise+ is clearly a war that they are not winning.o  > At the same time the militants in the camps cannot win either.  : So both parties lose, Israels citizens and economy suffers= from the continued conflict while those in Gaza and elsewhereh; become increasing militant and less likely to listen to theg9 more moderate elements in their midst. Its worth pointingi8 out that the body count at the moment is very one sided.  6 Ultimately we all lose because the western democracies: are diminished in their fight against extremist terrorists5 by turning a blind eye and in some cases supporting a 7 government in Israel which many of our potential allieso7 in the Muslim world beleive is as extreme as the forcesa pitted against it.  : What ever you think about GW's Iraq campaign he would have7 had a much simpler time putting together a coalition tos? remove Saddam if the Israeli Palestinian conflict was resolved.s     Regards  Andrew Harrisonp   John Smith wrote:n% > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"s: > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message* > news:3E6F1D02.3040903@nospamn.sun.com... >  >> >>Alan E. Feldman wrote: >>8 >>>"Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message >>0 > news:<DsqdnRi_cvBToPOjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>... > < >>>>"David Webb" <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message) >>>>news:b4l9t3$inl$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...i >>>> >>>>...o >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>See >>>> >>>>H > http://users.mweb.co.za/l/ll/lloyd/5-SpecialStudies/JewishHostilities. > html > B >>>>>for a non Jewish view of the conflict. Note in particular the >>>> > Jewish use >  >>>>of >>>> >>>>B >>>>>terrorist attacks on Arab Buses in Palestine, letter and book >>>> > bombs, >  >>>>attacks on >>>> >>>>3 >>>>>Hotels etc before the establishment of Israel.  >>>>' >>>Non-Jewish doesn't imply non-biased.n >>>  >>>M >>>hC >>>>Thanks.  My vague recollection was that nothing the Palestinian  >>>< > extremists > ; >>>>are now doing was any worse than some of the atrocitiess >>>n > perpetrated by > C >>>>Jewish extremists back then (and continuing, though diminished,e >>>u > considerably > F >>>>thereafter), but specifics are far preferable to dimming memories. >>>- >>>-C >>>Did the Jews brainwash teenagers into blowing themselves up? Dids >> > they > @ >>>hide suicide bombers in ambulances? Did you take motives into >>
 > account? > ? >>No but they helped create an environment where extremists are > >>able to convince young suicide bombers that this is the only >>sensible course of action. >>@ >>Gaza is an ideal environemt for extermists to flourish, Israel: >>is just as responsible for the conditions in Gaza as the >>Palestinian Authority. >  >  > 	 > Andrew,0 > F > That's pretty disingenuous of you to say that. Where is the personalH > responsibility of the individuals, their parents, their school system,E > their political leaders? Moderates within the Palestinian community07 > are routinely assassinated by Palestinian extremists.A > < > Lets get a couple of other things clear while we're at it: > F > A) First the geography - The West Bank is not a country unto itself,C > nor is it Palestine. Prior to 1968 it was an integral part of the E > Kingdom of Jordan. West Bank is a descriptive term to indicate that H > part of Jordan located between the Israeli border and the west bank of > the Jordan River.g > F > B) All residents of the 'West Bank' in 1968 were Jordanian citizens,F > not Palestinians. They had full rights to live and work in Jordan at > that time. > F > C) I do not believe that Jordan has formally renounced claim on that  > land known as the 'West Bank'. > F > D) For years after 1973 Jordan had a modus vivendi with Israel, withE > goods flowing both ways across the Jordan River. Jordan was placingJ6 > its economic well being ahead of the 'Palestinians'. > B > E) Gaza was national territory of Egypt up to the signing of the > Israel-Egypt treaty. > E > F) Thereafter Egypt effectively said to the people living in Gaza -dH > "F*ck you - You aren't Egyptians any more. We don't care what you callG > yourselves or whether you have a country you call your own or not. InaH > fact, we don't care if you live or die. You go figure it out. You want7 > Arafat as a leader - fine, see where that leads you."o >  > E > I would suggest that the vast majority of the 'rage' you ascribe totG > people in Gaza ought to be directed at the government of Egypt.  I amwE > not 100% sure of all the drawing of lines on the map between IsraeloF > and Gaza but let's just call it that there's a narrow buffer zone atH > the border.For all practical purposes Gaza is the same size as it ever> > was and nobody in Gaza who was there in 1968 or 1973 need beH > considered a refugee form their home, ie. the land under their home is > still part of Gaza.a > G > With respect to the 'West Bank', some land has been used to construct-H > Israeli settlements, roads, and other infrastructure. The constructionF > of roads and infrastructure is a normal part of any society - take aC > look around London or any city in Europe, Africa, anywhere in theEF > world. Population grows, infrastructure grows. No farmer or residentH > likes to lose their land or house to a road or electrical distributionD > station, but that's what happens in every country around the worldF > from time to time. Are the 'Palestinians' bitching about this or areG > they simply bitching because it was the Israeli government that builtf > the infrastructure?> > D > As far as the settlements are concerned, I am in disagreement withH > their having been constructed. While the Israeli government should notG > have built them, in my opinion, they did in fact buy the land via the E > mechanisms available to them, same as any other government anywhereoG > else in the world - willing sellers and/or compensated expropriation.oF > Now I can understand about being more p*ssed off about this than theD > construction of roads, etc.. But don't forget that under the BarakE > plan, rejected by Arafat, most of these settlements would revert toiG > Palestinian control and they could do with them what wished - live ingG > them, or demolish them and hand the land back to the original owners.b > G > Now let's go to a bit of 20th century European history. At the end ofhB > WWII Germany lost territory permanently - Danzig/Gdansk and EastH > Prussia, now part of Poland, and what of Alsace-Lorraine? We don't seeG > Germans today chomping at the bit to goosestep back into those areas. D > Jordan/Palestine, whatever you want to call it is going to have toA > face facts about small portions (5%) of the West Bank includinglA > Jerusalem - they aren't going to get them back, ever. Just like3
 > Germany. > A > If Arafat thinks that he is doing his 'people' a service by not-H > recognizing and accepting this reality, he's on drugs. It's his hubrisC > and ego that has caused many years of suffering for 'his' people.1 >  > E > The propaganda machine cannot change facts, only your perception of F > them, so be the intelligent person you are and accept the facts, not > the propaganda.d >  >  >  >  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:33:52 GMTs# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsJ Message-ID: <4Tkca.123339$em1.110333@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  8 "David Webb" <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message% news:b4scr4$s9l$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...n@ > In article <pc6dnfM71-8pQe2jXTWcqg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >e1 > >"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message C > >news:5NHba.5371$a41.2778@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...  > >r > >....o > >cA > >> Hypothetically (or not), if the US unilaterally invades Iraqy withoutS= > >> U.N. approval, then de facto the U.S. is in violation ofe
 internationalrF > >> law regarding the waging of 'aggressive war'. The U.N. could then callD > >> for the disarmament of the U.S. and the imposition of sanctions on the	 > >> U.S.l > >> > >> True or False?e > >pD > >True, with the qualification that I'm no expert on 'international law' and. > >can't speak to the details of its dictates. > >eE > >1.  The U.N. has *not* approved independent action against Iraq ati	 this timepE > >by a member state:  read resolution 1441, and then read resolutionr 678 foraD > >an example of how such approval is worded when granting it is the intent.tD > >Dubya and his thugs haven't even a fig leaf to cover them in this	 area:  as @ > >is normal practice, resolution 1441 'refers to' many previous resolutions D > >(including 678), but this does not serve to *transfer* resolution 678'seD > >approval of such independent action (specifically extended before the Gulf@ > >War to support the liberation of Kuwait) to the current (very
 different)A > >situation.  Thus the degree to which Iraq may or may not be inv
 complianceD > >with resolution 1441 is irrelevant to the issue of action without U.N. > >approval. > >eB > A couple of nights ago Newnight on BBC2 showed footage of the US
 AmbassadorE > at the time of resolution 1441 explicitly stating that 1441 did notf provideeD > any automaticity, that the resolution did not provide an automatic trigger forp0 > war without further security council approval.D > This was one of the main reasons that 1441 was passed unanimously.    7 Any idea if that clip is available on the BBC web site?A  E I guess George has repudiated his Ambassador for flagrantly violatingi> US policy by making such a statement, and we should expect theB Ambassador's resignation for such a faux pas. Ohmygod, I just used French! Naughty me.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:43:32 GMTa# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>h: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsJ Message-ID: <80lca.123422$em1.123165@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in messaged) news:3E713845.54213F37@vl.videotron.ca...  > = > Nop, it is the fact that the parties expect the peace to be  acheieved BEFOREB > the peace treaty is signed (eg: as a precondition of signing the
 treaty: peacen> > must first happen, but peace can't happen until agreement is recahed/signed).A > That is what is wrong. Israel finds excuses to end negotiationsi whenever angry% > terrorists blow up some restaurant.a  : JF - all peace negotiations are preceeded by a cease-fire.    C > > Just sit there and take a pounding? No one would expect this ofh anyi > > other place. >nE > No other place has been at "war" for thousands of years. You reallyo	 do need a E > totally new outlook to end that cycle, and you need the patience toa let thatE > peace take root. It isn't going to happen overnight. This isn't war 	 between 2u@ > countries, it is hatred between 2 people. That doesn't go away
 overnight.   So what do you suggest?o      = > I don't know whether the palestinian goverment controls thee terrorists, orC > whether it doesn't have the power to control them, or whether anye
 attempt to@ > control them would result in Arafat being murdered/ousted/etc.  @ Either way, it would be an improvement for the Palestinians, the' Israeli's, and the prospects for peace.h   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:56:52 +0000 (UTC)h+ From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)w: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <b4sn34$2jn$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>c   In article <3E71CC17.3040303@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:< >The problem with most conflicts in the world is that people> >spend far to much time looking back at ancient history. Using% >it to justify their current actions.  >  >Cromwell in Ireland etc.e > 8 >Britain may well have bodged the partition of Palestine7 >and Egypt may also have sold the Palestinians down theo7 >river, but neither of these historical events have any ; >impact on the current situation because just like Cromwell.% >in Ireland they are ancient history.  >gK The parallels between the Middle East conflict and that in Northern Irelandn are pretty good :-   1) Religious differences.hK 2) English protestants settling land formerly belonging to Irish Catholics.CL 3) Fear and distrust. With persecution or fear of persecution on both sides.O    Catholic persecution in Northern Ireland and Protestant fears of persecutiono    in any United Ireland.i and of course H 4) Terrorism - both from Catholic and Protestant Loyalist terror groups.L    With the British Army trying to win a war on terror and killing innocent     protestors eg Bloody Sunday.'  N The Northern Ireland peace process although fragile and faltering has at leastN produced a long period of near normality. All parties realised that they couldI not win the conflict and that the only solution was to talk and produce aaK compromise. The peace process may still fail (and the jockeying between andaM within the parties for political advantage sometimes makes the total collapsecK of the process seem imminent). However none of the participants has so far e returned to terrorism.I The Northern Ireland peace process shows how difficult such a path is bute. it is infinitely better than the alternative. K Neither Israel nor the Palestinians can win their conflict anymore than theiG IRA, Loyalists and British Government could win the confict in Northern C Ireland. Hardline attitudes on either side won't solve the problem.oO The British Government and the Unionist parties in Northern Ireland didn't wantaL to talk to Gerry Adams. Many in Israel don't want to talk to Arafat. HoweverK Arafat represents most of the Palestinians and compared to many alternativey" Palestinian leaders is a moderate.   
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University       9 >In this case you have Israel the middle-easts superpowerh9 >well armed with tanks, fixed wing planes and helicoptersa4 >and Naval ships ranged against a poorly armed group >of millitants.a >n7 >The suicide bomb, pipe bomb, random sniper attacks etcn< >are the only way that a group like this can respond against >what is overwhelming force. >i9 >Israels eye of an eye tooth for a tooth response to eachh7 >attack which inevitably will be against their civiliani9 >population (its difficult to shoot down a fixed wing jete2 >with an AK47) simply serves to fuel the conflict. > ; >Sadly neither side has a leader with the vision to realisew; >that this is a conflict that neither group can win. Israeli< >cannot ethically cleanse themselves of the Palestinians nor9 >can they stop terrorist incursions into their territory.h > 9 >Israels increasingly tough response to terrorist attacksh8 >doesn't seem to have had any impact on the frequency or6 >destructiveness of the attacks themselves and so this, >is clearly a war that they are not winning. >m? >At the same time the militants in the camps cannot win either.m > ; >So both parties lose, Israels citizens and economy suffers.> >from the continued conflict while those in Gaza and elsewhere< >become increasing militant and less likely to listen to the: >more moderate elements in their midst. Its worth pointing9 >out that the body count at the moment is very one sided.a >w7 >Ultimately we all lose because the western democraciesa; >are diminished in their fight against extremist terroristse6 >by turning a blind eye and in some cases supporting a8 >government in Israel which many of our potential allies8 >in the Muslim world beleive is as extreme as the forces >pitted against it.  >t; >What ever you think about GW's Iraq campaign he would haven8 >had a much simpler time putting together a coalition to@ >remove Saddam if the Israeli Palestinian conflict was resolved. >a >c >Regards >Andrew Harrison >s >John Smith wrote:& >> "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"; >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in messaged+ >> news:3E6F1D02.3040903@nospamn.sun.com...n >> s >>>o >>>Alan E. Feldman wrote:v >>> 9 >>>>"Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagep >>>e1 >> news:<DsqdnRi_cvBToPOjXTWcqw@metrocast.net>...i >> ,= >>>>>"David Webb" <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message * >>>>>news:b4l9t3$inl$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk... >>>>>w >>>>>... >>>>>  >>>>>a >>>>>d	 >>>>>>Seeb >>>>>u >>>>>hI >> http://users.mweb.co.za/l/ll/lloyd/5-SpecialStudies/JewishHostilities.S >> htmlr >> cC >>>>>>for a non Jewish view of the conflict. Note in particular thea >>>>> 
 >> Jewish use  >>   >>>>>ofu >>>>>  >>>>>hC >>>>>>terrorist attacks on Arab Buses in Palestine, letter and bookl >>>>> 	 >> bombs,t >> n >>>>>attacks on  >>>>>t >>>>>g4 >>>>>>Hotels etc before the establishment of Israel. >>>>>s( >>>>Non-Jewish doesn't imply non-biased. >>>> >>>> >>>>D >>>>>Thanks.  My vague recollection was that nothing the Palestinian >>>>
 >> extremistse >> ,< >>>>>are now doing was any worse than some of the atrocities >>>> >> perpetrated by  >> tD >>>>>Jewish extremists back then (and continuing, though diminished, >>>> >> considerablyy >> dG >>>>>thereafter), but specifics are far preferable to dimming memories.. >>>> >>>>D >>>>Did the Jews brainwash teenagers into blowing themselves up? Did >>>l >> they. >>  A >>>>hide suicide bombers in ambulances? Did you take motives intot >>>f >> account?s >> A@ >>>No but they helped create an environment where extremists are? >>>able to convince young suicide bombers that this is the onlyt >>>sensible course of action.s >>>rA >>>Gaza is an ideal environemt for extermists to flourish, Israell; >>>is just as responsible for the conditions in Gaza as the  >>>Palestinian Authority.o >> e >>   >> c
 >> Andrew, >>  G >> That's pretty disingenuous of you to say that. Where is the personaldI >> responsibility of the individuals, their parents, their school system,-F >> their political leaders? Moderates within the Palestinian community8 >> are routinely assassinated by Palestinian extremists. >> L= >> Lets get a couple of other things clear while we're at it:u >> rG >> A) First the geography - The West Bank is not a country unto itself, D >> nor is it Palestine. Prior to 1968 it was an integral part of theF >> Kingdom of Jordan. West Bank is a descriptive term to indicate thatI >> part of Jordan located between the Israeli border and the west bank ofa >> the Jordan River. >> tG >> B) All residents of the 'West Bank' in 1968 were Jordanian citizens,=G >> not Palestinians. They had full rights to live and work in Jordan ate
 >> that time.e >> iG >> C) I do not believe that Jordan has formally renounced claim on thatt! >> land known as the 'West Bank'.- >> -G >> D) For years after 1973 Jordan had a modus vivendi with Israel, withlF >> goods flowing both ways across the Jordan River. Jordan was placing7 >> its economic well being ahead of the 'Palestinians'.o >> dC >> E) Gaza was national territory of Egypt up to the signing of thel >> Israel-Egypt treaty.u >> (F >> F) Thereafter Egypt effectively said to the people living in Gaza -I >> "F*ck you - You aren't Egyptians any more. We don't care what you call.H >> yourselves or whether you have a country you call your own or not. InI >> fact, we don't care if you live or die. You go figure it out. You wantr8 >> Arafat as a leader - fine, see where that leads you." >>   >> eF >> I would suggest that the vast majority of the 'rage' you ascribe toH >> people in Gaza ought to be directed at the government of Egypt.  I amF >> not 100% sure of all the drawing of lines on the map between IsraelG >> and Gaza but let's just call it that there's a narrow buffer zone at I >> the border.For all practical purposes Gaza is the same size as it everP? >> was and nobody in Gaza who was there in 1968 or 1973 need beeI >> considered a refugee form their home, ie. the land under their home isN >> still part of Gaza. >>  H >> With respect to the 'West Bank', some land has been used to constructI >> Israeli settlements, roads, and other infrastructure. The constructiontG >> of roads and infrastructure is a normal part of any society - take a D >> look around London or any city in Europe, Africa, anywhere in theG >> world. Population grows, infrastructure grows. No farmer or residenttI >> likes to lose their land or house to a road or electrical distributionnE >> station, but that's what happens in every country around the worldnG >> from time to time. Are the 'Palestinians' bitching about this or are0H >> they simply bitching because it was the Israeli government that built >> the infrastructure? >> nE >> As far as the settlements are concerned, I am in disagreement withmI >> their having been constructed. While the Israeli government should noteH >> have built them, in my opinion, they did in fact buy the land via theF >> mechanisms available to them, same as any other government anywhereH >> else in the world - willing sellers and/or compensated expropriation.G >> Now I can understand about being more p*ssed off about this than theuE >> construction of roads, etc.. But don't forget that under the BarakwF >> plan, rejected by Arafat, most of these settlements would revert toH >> Palestinian control and they could do with them what wished - live inH >> them, or demolish them and hand the land back to the original owners. >>  H >> Now let's go to a bit of 20th century European history. At the end ofC >> WWII Germany lost territory permanently - Danzig/Gdansk and EastmI >> Prussia, now part of Poland, and what of Alsace-Lorraine? We don't see H >> Germans today chomping at the bit to goosestep back into those areas.E >> Jordan/Palestine, whatever you want to call it is going to have to B >> face facts about small portions (5%) of the West Bank includingB >> Jerusalem - they aren't going to get them back, ever. Just like >> Germany.o >> lB >> If Arafat thinks that he is doing his 'people' a service by notI >> recognizing and accepting this reality, he's on drugs. It's his hubris D >> and ego that has caused many years of suffering for 'his' people. >> s >>  F >> The propaganda machine cannot change facts, only your perception ofG >> them, so be the intelligent person you are and accept the facts, not  >> the propaganda. >>   >> l >> r >> e >> h >> l >t   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:26:27 +0000 (UTC)-+ From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)0: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants+ Message-ID: <b4soqj$35p$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>p  p In article <4Tkca.123339$em1.110333@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >f9 >"David Webb" <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in messageo& >news:b4scr4$s9l$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...A >> In article <pc6dnfM71-8pQe2jXTWcqg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" ! ><billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:i >> >2 >> >"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageD >> >news:5NHba.5371$a41.2778@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... >> > >> >.... >> >B >> >> Hypothetically (or not), if the US unilaterally invades Iraq >without> >> >> U.N. approval, then de facto the U.S. is in violation of >internationalG >> >> law regarding the waging of 'aggressive war'. The U.N. could then  >callsE >> >> for the disarmament of the U.S. and the imposition of sanctionsw >on the-
 >> >> U.S. >> >>s >> >> True or False? >> >E >> >True, with the qualification that I'm no expert on 'internationalp	 >law' andd/ >> >can't speak to the details of its dictates.i >> >F >> >1.  The U.N. has *not* approved independent action against Iraq at
 >this timeF >> >by a member state:  read resolution 1441, and then read resolution >678 forE >> >an example of how such approval is worded when granting it is the  >intent.E >> >Dubya and his thugs haven't even a fig leaf to cover them in thise
 >area:  asA >> >is normal practice, resolution 1441 'refers to' many previouso >resolutionsE >> >(including 678), but this does not serve to *transfer* resolutiong >678'sE >> >approval of such independent action (specifically extended before 	 >the Gulf A >> >War to support the liberation of Kuwait) to the current (veryh >different)nB >> >situation.  Thus the degree to which Iraq may or may not be in >compliance E >> >with resolution 1441 is irrelevant to the issue of action withoutl >U.N.u
 >> >approval.l >> >C >> A couple of nights ago Newnight on BBC2 showed footage of the US  >AmbassadoreF >> at the time of resolution 1441 explicitly stating that 1441 did not >provideE >> any automaticity, that the resolution did not provide an automatici >trigger for1 >> war without further security council approval. E >> This was one of the main reasons that 1441 was passed unanimously.w >n > 8 >Any idea if that clip is available on the BBC web site? >t  N Just had a quick look and couldn't find it. It was in a section of the programB looking at the legality of the war without a second UN resolution.H As I recall it was pretty much agreed that going to war without a secondF resolution solely on the basis on 1441 would not be legal. However theH "Pro-War" lawyer present tried to make a case based on 1441 plus earlier' resolutions the other lawyer disagreed.r  F >I guess George has repudiated his Ambassador for flagrantly violating? >US policy by making such a statement, and we should expect theeC >Ambassador's resignation for such a faux pas. Ohmygod, I just usede >French! Naughty me. >i  N I doubt it. George may well have instructed him to say this - it was necessaryJ in order to pass 1441. The question is whether what the Ambassador said orN anything else that was said at the time in order to get the resolution passed E has any weight in the legal interpretation of the resolution. Being awG non-lawyer I'd have thought it should ie it indicates the intent of theo, resolution - but as I said I'm not a lawyer.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   >u   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:18:42 GMTd# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsI Message-ID: <6xlca.123705$em1.29594@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>t  # "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"e8 <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message( news:3E71CC17.3040303@nospamn.sun.com...= > The problem with most conflicts in the world is that peopleb? > spend far to much time looking back at ancient history. Usings& > it to justify their current actions. >s > Cromwell in Ireland etc. >l9 > Britain may well have bodged the partition of Palestines8 > and Egypt may also have sold the Palestinians down the8 > river, but neither of these historical events have any< > impact on the current situation because just like Cromwell& > in Ireland they are ancient history. >r: > In this case you have Israel the middle-easts superpower: > well armed with tanks, fixed wing planes and helicopters5 > and Naval ships ranged against a poorly armed groupw > of millitants.  E They aren't poorly armed, they just have less than the Israeli's. Andn? what arms they are supposed to have were prescribed in the OsloaC Accords or codicils thereto. They have far more, quantitatively andt' qualitatively, than the Accords permit.t      8 > The suicide bomb, pipe bomb, random sniper attacks etc= > are the only way that a group like this can respond againsto > what is overwhelming force.o  A Arafat & Co. don't like what Israel does. Fine. Let them go afteryC government leaders and goverment facilities just as Israel has goneeC after those holding the levers of power in in the PA for failing ton stop the terrorism.n  @ 'Suicide' murderers deliberately going after women and children,A schoolkids, .....that's supposed to be ok? You're saying that thehD Palestinians are fully justified in doing what they are doing. Witrh? few exceptions, the deaths of *civilian* Palestinians have beensC neither premeditated or deliberate, unlike the efforts of your goodc* Palestinian friends against the Israeli's.        : > Israels eye of an eye tooth for a tooth response to each8 > attack which inevitably will be against their civilian: > population (its difficult to shoot down a fixed wing jet3 > with an AK47) simply serves to fuel the conflict.e >a< > Sadly neither side has a leader with the vision to realise< > that this is a conflict that neither group can win. Israel= > cannot ethically cleanse themselves of the Palestinians nor : > can they stop terrorist incursions into their territory.  E Let's please be clear on this matter. Israel is not ethnic cleansing. < Look at the facts Andrew - Israel is not expelling/murdering@ Arab-Christians or Arab-Muslims living within the body of Israel: proper. Nor are they 'ethnic cleansing' Arab-Christians orF Arab-Muslims or anyone with any other 'label' you may care to stick on0 them withing the areas of Gaza or the West Bank.  C What Irael *IS* doing is telling the Palestinians - here's the land E you want (with minor exceptions), go govern yourselves, BUT before wedE give the land and the autonomy back, you - the Palestinians - have tos3 do a few *simple* of things.....(and I paraphrase):u  A a) recognize that Israel is a sovereign country with the right to  exist;= b) foreswear all terrorist or other attacks on Israel and itss	 citizens;e c) conduct yourself peacefully;sD d) that the land you receive in this peace settlement is all you are
 going to get;sE e) that those 'Palestinians' and their children, and their children's8D children, and so on, who left Israel proper in years gone-by have noF automatic 'right of return' to the country of Israel.  If they want toF move to Israel, they can apply to be immigrants, just like anyone elseD from anywhere else in the world, and be judged individually on their own merits.o  D Tell me, what's so difficult with this? Where's the 'showstopper' in	 all this?     : > Israels increasingly tough response to terrorist attacks9 > doesn't seem to have had any impact on the frequency ore7 > destructiveness of the attacks themselves and so this - > is clearly a war that they are not winning.s   Nobody is winningr              < > So both parties lose, Israels citizens and economy suffers? > from the continued conflict while those in Gaza and elsewherea= > become increasing militant and less likely to listen to then; > more moderate elements in their midst. Its worth pointingc: > out that the body count at the moment is very one sided. >l8 > Ultimately we all lose because the western democracies< > are diminished in their fight against extremist terrorists7 > by turning a blind eye and in some cases supporting aw9 > government in Israel which many of our potential alliesi9 > in the Muslim world beleive is as extreme as the forceso > pitted against it. >o< > What ever you think about GW's Iraq campaign he would have9 > had a much simpler time putting together a coalition to-A > remove Saddam if the Israeli Palestinian conflict was resolved.U  F To some extent I think Bush is correct in thinking that if Hussein wasA deposed the will Palestinians lose their financial backing and beiE compelled to rethink their position. But the issue of the 'coalition'l? to remove Hussein is a different matter - it is a matter of thenC legality under international law of what Bush is trying to ram downd= the throat's of the nations of the world at the present time.P   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 08:48:27 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)s: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <c5JbgVJtSXZD@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  X In article <3E71CC17.3040303@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes:   > < > Sadly neither side has a leader with the vision to realise< > that this is a conflict that neither group can win. Israel= > cannot ethically cleanse themselves of the Palestinians nor : > can they stop terrorist incursions into their territory. >   9 	What you mean is they will have to spend a great deal of(2 	money to keep terrorists out.  It will slow their4 	ecnomy and hassle day workers that come in from the 	West Bank.h  W http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/land/2002/0410barriers.htm   O "Perhaps most striking is the series of fences and walls rising piecemeal along M stretches of borderland between central Israeli towns that hug the West Bank,sN from the Palestinian town of Qalqilyah north to Tulkarm. Some are electrified,N topped with barbed wire and equipped with video surveillance cameras. Not longO ago, Sharon and top military officials toured the area to survey sites destinede to be fenced off. "t  P "The threat of armed attack from Palestinians coming from the West Bank and GazaN supplies the rationale for what Israelis call "separation." Repeated terroristH attacks inside Israel have raised cries among the public for sealing off- borders between Israel and the Palestinians. i  N But the frontiers of Israel are not the only points of contact between the twoN populations. Israel maintains 140 settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip,F populated by more than 200,000 Jews. The intertwining of roads and theH proximity of Israeli settlements to Palestinian towns and hamlets vastly) complicate the creation of buffer zones."a    B 	It is a difficult problem.  However, the East Germans (grin) wereG 	able to keep the West Germans (grin) from making incursions for years,d< 	by using concrete walls, electric fences,  and guards.  ;-)  : > Israels increasingly tough response to terrorist attacks9 > doesn't seem to have had any impact on the frequency oro7 > destructiveness of the attacks themselves and so this>- > is clearly a war that they are not winning.m    < 	That isn't true.  There were many months without an attack.< 	The Israelis will be able to totally seal their borders viaF 	electronics and fences.  It will be expensive and take time and slow G 	down day workers, but the frequency of attacks will drop dramatically.l   				Robi   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:36:25 +0000e' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants. Message-ID: <3E71E8E9.3050203@nospamn.sun.com>   John Smith wrote:>% > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"b: > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message* > news:3E71CC17.3040303@nospamn.sun.com... > = >>The problem with most conflicts in the world is that peoplem? >>spend far to much time looking back at ancient history. Usingt& >>it to justify their current actions. >> >>Cromwell in Ireland etc. >>9 >>Britain may well have bodged the partition of Palestineh8 >>and Egypt may also have sold the Palestinians down the8 >>river, but neither of these historical events have any< >>impact on the current situation because just like Cromwell& >>in Ireland they are ancient history. >>: >>In this case you have Israel the middle-easts superpower: >>well armed with tanks, fixed wing planes and helicopters5 >>and Naval ships ranged against a poorly armed group  >>of millitants. >  > G > They aren't poorly armed, they just have less than the Israeli's. AndoA > what arms they are supposed to have were prescribed in the Oslo E > Accords or codicils thereto. They have far more, quantitatively andt) > qualitatively, than the Accords permit.y >   @ They are compared with the Israeli army. And sure they shouldn't> have the level of arms that they do. But then neither side has stuck to the Oslo Accords.    C > Arafat & Co. don't like what Israel does. Fine. Let them go afterlE > government leaders and goverment facilities just as Israel has goneoE > after those holding the levers of power in in the PA for failing tog > stop the terrorism.g >   ; Israel has not just gone for the leaders and the government = facilites. There has been a huge ammount of collateral damageb* and casualties in the civilian population.  B > 'Suicide' murderers deliberately going after women and children,C > schoolkids, .....that's supposed to be ok? You're saying that thetF > Palestinians are fully justified in doing what they are doing. WitrhA > few exceptions, the deaths of *civilian* Palestinians have beentE > neither premeditated or deliberate, unlike the efforts of your goodo, > Palestinian friends against the Israeli's. >   7 Were did you get the idea that I supporting the suicide ( bombers. I don't. No death is justified.  < It is however a fact that the you hit me I will hit you back@ attitude of both sides is an ideal breeding ground for extremism on both sides as well.   >  >  > : >>Israels eye of an eye tooth for a tooth response to each8 >>attack which inevitably will be against their civilian: >>population (its difficult to shoot down a fixed wing jet3 >>with an AK47) simply serves to fuel the conflict.d >>< >>Sadly neither side has a leader with the vision to realise< >>that this is a conflict that neither group can win. Israel= >>cannot ethically cleanse themselves of the Palestinians nord: >>can they stop terrorist incursions into their territory. >  > G > Let's please be clear on this matter. Israel is not ethnic cleansing.t> > Look at the facts Andrew - Israel is not expelling/murderingB > Arab-Christians or Arab-Muslims living within the body of Israel< > proper. Nor are they 'ethnic cleansing' Arab-Christians orH > Arab-Muslims or anyone with any other 'label' you may care to stick on2 > them withing the areas of Gaza or the West Bank. >   E Where did I say that they were ethnically cleansing the Palestinians.n  C I said Israel cannot ethnically cleans, re-read my posting you seem ? be be suffering from a series of comprehension errors which area' limitting the point of this discussion.    regardss Andrew Harrisono   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:33:55 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsJ Message-ID: <DDmca.244873$UXa.188181@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageD news:4Tkca.123339$em1.110333@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... >b: > "David Webb" <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message' > news:b4scr4$s9l$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...i > > >bD > > A couple of nights ago Newnight on BBC2 showed footage of the US > AmbassadorC > > at the time of resolution 1441 explicitly stating that 1441 didp nota	 > provideoF > > any automaticity, that the resolution did not provide an automatic
 > trigger foro2 > > war without further security council approval.F > > This was one of the main reasons that 1441 was passed unanimously. >e >n9 > Any idea if that clip is available on the BBC web site?i > = > I guess George has repudiated his Ambassador for flagrantly 	 violating @ > US policy by making such a statement, and we should expect theD > Ambassador's resignation for such a faux pas. Ohmygod, I just used > French! Naughty me.p    @ Never mind....I found what I was looking for at the UN web site.  E For those interested, I'd recommend reading Resolution 1441 first, atlF http://ods-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N02/682/26/PDF/N0268226.pdf?Ope nElement  F The relevant bits in 1441 are found at the top of page 3 in points 1), 2), 4)E To summarize, in 1) the UN recognizes that Iraq is in material breacheD of a prior resolution  (#687-1991), which provided for a cease-fire,B but that in 2) it is providing Iraq one more chance to comply with resolution 687.   < At no place in resolution 1441 does it mention that war will automatically follow.y  E Point 4) states that further breaches of 687 shall be reported to thecE UN and assessed under 11) and 12). And 12) clearly means that further-= deliberation and voting on actions to follow must take place.s    @ Next, I'd read the comments of US Ambassador John D. Negroponte, located at:AF http://www.un.int/usa/02_187.htm - this is the web site of the MissionD of United States of America, and presumably reflects official policy of the government of the USA.i  D The operative statement is located just below the large photo of the Security Council:d  ? "As we have said on numerous occasions to Council members, thisoC Resolution contains no "hidden triggers" and no "automaticity" with.A respect to the use of force.  If there is a further Iraqi breach, D reported to the Council by UNMOVIC, the IAEA, or a member state, the@ matter will return to the Council for discussions as required inB paragraph 12. The Resolution makes clear that any Iraqi failure to8 comply is unacceptable and that Iraq must be disarmed. "    D He then goes on to say, "And one way or another, Mr. President, IraqE will be disarmed.  If the Security Council fails to act decisively ind@ the event of a further Iraqi violation, this resolution does notC constrain any member state from acting to defend itself against them? threat posed by Iraq, or to enforce relevant UN resolutions ands" protect world peace and security."  F So there's no 'automaticity' unless the US disagrees with the SecurityE Council. Whose idea of world peace and security are we talking about? 1 Does only one nation's perception of that matter?m  C There is no imminent danger, so the how matters just as much as the @ result. And even when there is imminent danger, the how matters.  D In the future, near or far, how and when, and by whom, will the nextC country that 'offends' in reality or is perceived to be a threat beTC brought to heel? (think China's eventual eclipsing of the US as thet( pre-eminent economic and military power)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:43:32 -0400w0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E71F8A2.D449FBC3@vl.videotron.ca>t   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > Jewish Arabs? Fascinating.  L What race are the jewish people who have been in the region for thousands ofG years ? They would either be arabs or egyptians if those are different.l  N If "arab" isn't a race per say, consider that in the USA, the airport folks doK discriminate against arab looking passengers, so they must have sufficentlyt distinctive traits.s  L I realise that a certain percentage of citizens of israel have immigrated orM descendant of people who immigrated from europe and USA in recent decades (50 N years is a short time when you consider a history lasting thousands of years).  K But surely there are still some citizens of israel who don't have immigrant> blood ?e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:50:57 -05001* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <UYScnX7M4LHple-jXTWc3Q@metrocast.net>  K "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>p9 wrote in message news:3E71E8E9.3050203@nospamn.sun.com...  >n >I > John Smith wrote:o' > > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"r< > > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message, > > news:3E71CC17.3040303@nospamn.sun.com...   ...e  > > >>Sadly neither side has a leader with the vision to realise> > >>that this is a conflict that neither group can win. Israel? > >>cannot ethically cleanse themselves of the Palestinians nort< > >>can they stop terrorist incursions into their territory. > >o > > I > > Let's please be clear on this matter. Israel is not ethnic cleansing.i@ > > Look at the facts Andrew - Israel is not expelling/murderingD > > Arab-Christians or Arab-Muslims living within the body of Israel> > > proper. Nor are they 'ethnic cleansing' Arab-Christians orJ > > Arab-Muslims or anyone with any other 'label' you may care to stick on4 > > them withing the areas of Gaza or the West Bank. > >w > G > Where did I say that they were ethnically cleansing the Palestinians.p   You did not.   > ) > I said Israel cannot ethnically cleans,r  K Actually, you said "Israel cannot *ethically* cleanse...", and John misreadb it.u    re-read my posting you seemA > be be suffering from a series of comprehension errors which arek) > limitting the point of this discussion.s  L From past discussions I'm inclined to suspect that he really *is* interestedF in communication (rather than just polemic) - he just seems to have an1 unusually strong bias to get past in this matter.i   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:02:13 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <tlGdnUoCHuWElu-jXTWcrg@metrocast.net>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageC news:6xlca.123705$em1.29594@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...y   ...   E > What Irael *IS* doing is telling the Palestinians - here's the landnG > you want (with minor exceptions), go govern yourselves, BUT before wenG > give the land and the autonomy back, you - the Palestinians - have tot5 > do a few *simple* of things.....(and I paraphrase):i >.C > a) recognize that Israel is a sovereign country with the right to  > exist;   Not a sticking point.a  ? > b) foreswear all terrorist or other attacks on Israel and itsa > citizens;e   Not a sticking point.   ! > c) conduct yourself peacefully;e   Not a sticking point.   F > d) that the land you receive in this peace settlement is all you are > going to get;n  A Not a sticking point.  However, the Israeli proposals are not yetlI satisfactory (for reasons which have been quite clearly explained in bothsK the Palestinian citation you provided and a couple of the Israeli citationsaH I provided in return:  it's *not* merely Arafat stubbornness as you have	 alleged).m  G > e) that those 'Palestinians' and their children, and their children'sfF > children, and so on, who left Israel proper in years gone-by have noH > automatic 'right of return' to the country of Israel.  If they want toH > move to Israel, they can apply to be immigrants, just like anyone elseF > from anywhere else in the world, and be judged individually on their
 > own merits.h  K I don't know how much of a sticking point that would be if it were the onlytG remaining obstacle.  International law appears to favor the Palestinian I position, so perhaps the question is what Israel is proposing to offer int  return for abandoning the claim.   >tF > Tell me, what's so difficult with this? Where's the 'showstopper' in > all this?a  I No problem whatsoever:  Israel just has to offer an acceptable settlementi( (including the obvious double entendre).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:10:55 -0500r* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants2 Message-ID: <fuWcnXT1e-W-kO-jXTWcpg@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:c5JbgVJtSXZD@eisner.encompasserve.org...fF > In article <3E71CC17.3040303@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes:l >o > >s> > > Sadly neither side has a leader with the vision to realise> > > that this is a conflict that neither group can win. Israel? > > cannot ethically cleanse themselves of the Palestinians nore< > > can they stop terrorist incursions into their territory. > >o >h: > What you mean is they will have to spend a great deal of3 > money to keep terrorists out.  It will slow theire5 > ecnomy and hassle day workers that come in from the  > West Bank.  K Hmmm.  Kind of sounds like Dubya's concept of 'homeland security', too.  InlK both cases, solving the underlying problem would be cheaper as well as moren5 productive (and, of course, the *right* thing to do).s   >r >sL http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/land/2002/0410b arriers.htme > K > "Perhaps most striking is the series of fences and walls rising piecemeale along I > stretches of borderland between central Israeli towns that hug the Westi Bank,oC > from the Palestinian town of Qalqilyah north to Tulkarm. Some aree electrified,K > topped with barbed wire and equipped with video surveillance cameras. Notn longH > ago, Sharon and top military officials toured the area to survey sites destined > to be fenced off. "i >iI > "The threat of armed attack from Palestinians coming from the West Banka and GazaF > supplies the rationale for what Israelis call "separation." Repeated	 terrorist J > attacks inside Israel have raised cries among the public for sealing off. > borders between Israel and the Palestinians.  E When you apply the same thinking to our own situation, it changes theoJ meaning of the once-complimentary term "Fortress America" into the kind of: country I'm not all that enthused about being a member of.   > L > But the frontiers of Israel are not the only points of contact between the twoeI > populations. Israel maintains 140 settlements in the West Bank and Gazai Strip,H > populated by more than 200,000 Jews. The intertwining of roads and theJ > proximity of Israeli settlements to Palestinian towns and hamlets vastly+ > complicate the creation of buffer zones."> >m > C > It is a difficult problem.  However, the East Germans (grin) were H > able to keep the West Germans (grin) from making incursions for years,= > by using concrete walls, electric fences,  and guards.  ;-)   G But in that case there was only *1* 'settlement' to deal with, not 140.r   > < > > Israels increasingly tough response to terrorist attacks; > > doesn't seem to have had any impact on the frequency ore9 > > destructiveness of the attacks themselves and so thise/ > > is clearly a war that they are not winning.e >  > = > That isn't true.  There were many months without an attack.s= > The Israelis will be able to totally seal their borders viaiF > electronics and fences.  It will be expensive and take time and slowH > down day workers, but the frequency of attacks will drop dramatically.  K "Millions for defense, but not one red cent for peace."  If that's the kinduL of life the Israelis want, they can have it (but I don't want my tax dollars supporting it).n   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:00:48 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>c: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease TyrantsI Message-ID: <4Vnca.244906$UXa.73493@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>a  # "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"e8 <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message( news:3E71E8E9.3050203@nospamn.sun.com... >d >> > John Smith wrote:e' > > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" < > > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message, > > news:3E71CC17.3040303@nospamn.sun.com... > >y? > >>The problem with most conflicts in the world is that peoplenA > >>spend far to much time looking back at ancient history. Using ( > >>it to justify their current actions. > >> > >>Cromwell in Ireland etc. > >>; > >>Britain may well have bodged the partition of Palestines: > >>and Egypt may also have sold the Palestinians down the: > >>river, but neither of these historical events have any> > >>impact on the current situation because just like Cromwell( > >>in Ireland they are ancient history. > >>< > >>In this case you have Israel the middle-easts superpower< > >>well armed with tanks, fixed wing planes and helicopters7 > >>and Naval ships ranged against a poorly armed groupB > >>of millitants. > >e > >fE > > They aren't poorly armed, they just have less than the Israeli's.g And C > > what arms they are supposed to have were prescribed in the OslolC > > Accords or codicils thereto. They have far more, quantitativelye andr+ > > qualitatively, than the Accords permit.e > >p >rB > They are compared with the Israeli army. And sure they shouldn't@ > have the level of arms that they do. But then neither side has > stuck to the Oslo Accords.  C Israel is a nation state. Palestine is a glimmer in the eyes of the D Palestinians until they learn to adhere to the agreements they made.> Israel is correct in withholding the transfer of the levers ofC statehood (land and complete autonomy) until the violence stops. IfoB you look carefully at what each party is obligated to do under theB Accords, codicils, and other agreements, you will find that in theF vast majority of cases Israel is in compliance, whereas the PA is not.    E > > Arafat & Co. don't like what Israel does. Fine. Let them go aftertB > > government leaders and goverment facilities just as Israel has goneD > > after those holding the levers of power in in the PA for failing to > > stop the terrorism.i >p= > Israel has not just gone for the leaders and the governmentn? > facilites. There has been a huge ammount of collateral damageo, > and casualties in the civilian population.      D > > 'Suicide' murderers deliberately going after women and children,E > > schoolkids, .....that's supposed to be ok? You're saying that the B > > Palestinians are fully justified in doing what they are doing. Witrh C > > few exceptions, the deaths of *civilian* Palestinians have beenaB > > neither premeditated or deliberate, unlike the efforts of your good. > > Palestinian friends against the Israeli's. > >h >o9 > Were did you get the idea that I supporting the suicideg* > bombers. I don't. No death is justified. >>> > It is however a fact that the you hit me I will hit you backB > attitude of both sides is an ideal breeding ground for extremism > on both sides as well.  E No arguement there. Just remember who is casting the stones to incitecE the responses. See Alan Feldman's comments and keep in your mind thatsC Israel has never wanted to do anything but live peacefully with its>@ neighbours. In 1967 and again in 1973, Israeli troops could have= easily surrounded Damascus, Cairo, Amman, but they didn't.  IeB personally know a former Israeli tank brigade commander who was 40D miles from Cairo in 1973 - there was no meaningful opposition in the< way. That they didn't proceed was a function of two things -D international pressure, but also the realization that doing so wouldC not materially benefit Israel. Arab civilians caught behind IsraeliiC lines in these wars were not slaughtered, but rest assured that theo8 reverse would have been true had the tables been turned.    < > >>Israels eye of an eye tooth for a tooth response to each: > >>attack which inevitably will be against their civilian< > >>population (its difficult to shoot down a fixed wing jet5 > >>with an AK47) simply serves to fuel the conflict.e  F But having SAM's to shoot Israeli aircraft down would be ok because it 'evens' things out a bit?     > > >>Sadly neither side has a leader with the vision to realise> > >>that this is a conflict that neither group can win. Israel? > >>cannot ethically cleanse themselves of the Palestinians norn< > >>can they stop terrorist incursions into their territory. > >i > >i> > > Let's please be clear on this matter. Israel is not ethnic
 cleansing.@ > > Look at the facts Andrew - Israel is not expelling/murderingD > > Arab-Christians or Arab-Muslims living within the body of Israel> > > proper. Nor are they 'ethnic cleansing' Arab-Christians orA > > Arab-Muslims or anyone with any other 'label' you may care to  stick on4 > > them withing the areas of Gaza or the West Bank. > >c >,9 > Where did I say that they were ethnically cleansing thed
 Palestinians.d >cE > I said Israel cannot ethnically cleans, re-read my posting you seemrA > be be suffering from a series of comprehension errors which areo) > limitting the point of this discussion.   # Mea culpa. My apologies. I misread.e  0 But let's look at 'cleansing' as you phrased it.E Israel could throw up the equivalent of the Berlin Wall and 'cleanse',F themselves of Palestinians in one sense, but that does not address theF long term requirement of a political solution agreed to and adhered to< by both parties. Merely throwing up a wall does not stop theF Palestinians from 'educating', if you can call it that, their childrenB into violence and misdirected rage, the next generation of suicide
 murderers.  F Israel wants a partner in peace. A one-sided peace is not a recipe for& stability and elimination of violence.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:14:31 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants/ Message-ID: <3E71FFE3.C7E9CA88@vl.videotron.ca>t   John Smith wrote:>< > JF - all peace negotiations are preceeded by a cease-fire.  N But you can never negotiate a cease-fire if, you have as a pre-condition, that the cease-fire happens first.i  M Palestinian PEOPLE are very angry against Israel.  The Israel GOVERNENMENT isoM very angry at Palestine because of the terrorist attacks on Israel territory.o  H The Israel government doesn't want to be seen as buckling to Palestinian! demands for fear of losing votes.h  N Palestinian authority doesn't want to be be seen as buckling to Israel demandsP for fear of losing whatever little control they still have over their militants.  M My feeling is that the Israeli government underestimates the isreali people's H willingness to make peace happen even with Israel having to give on some@ items. As a result, the government stands firm on their demands.  G If the goal is long term peace, does it really matter if i is Israel ornN Palestine which gives in first ? Sure, Israel's pride my have a little scratch? for a few years. But what is that in terms of long term peace ?k  N I do not know to what extent Arafat controls the terrorists, or to what extentN the terrorists control Arafat. Somehow, I think that the terrorists think thatK Arafat has softened too much. However, I do know that the Israel government # ahs full control over its military.   L If if peace needs someone to start first, I know that Israel has the abilityG to implement it and stop bombing the hell out of Palestine, it has 100%AG control over its army. But I really don't know if Arafat really has the,K ability to stop the terrorist attacks instantly. My feeling is that it willmM take time before the anger boiling in the palestinian people drops to a leveleF when the motivation to become a sucuide bomber will go away by itself.  M I know that Israel argues that Arafat has 100% control over the terrorists. ItN am not 100% convinced. And perhaps he feeds them 25% of what they need just soJ he can retain *some* control over them, but with only 25% of votes, he can$ iverrule the more militant factions.   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Mar 2003 11:57:54 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) : Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants3 Message-ID: <ClXCPbhVcAdU@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  _ In article <fuWcnXT1e-W-kO-jXTWcpg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:@ > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:c5JbgVJtSXZD@eisner.encompasserve.org...n   >>D >> It is a difficult problem.  However, the East Germans (grin) wereI >> able to keep the West Germans (grin) from making incursions for years,i> >> by using concrete walls, electric fences,  and guards.  ;-) > I > But in that case there was only *1* 'settlement' to deal with, not 140.  >   / 	Yes.  That would lend itself to the statement:o   	"It is a difficult problem."t   				Rob,   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:51:21 +0000i' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancyI: Subject: Re: OT Re: National Moratorium to Appease Tyrants, Message-ID: <3E721699.50302@nospamn.sun.com>   Bill Todd wrote:M > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> ; > wrote in message news:3E71E8E9.3050203@nospamn.sun.com...s      A >>be be suffering from a series of comprehension errors which are ) >>limitting the point of this discussion.d >  > N > From past discussions I'm inclined to suspect that he really *is* interestedH > in communication (rather than just polemic) - he just seems to have an3 > unusually strong bias to get past in this matter.  >   # It did seem a bit out of character.    Regards. Andrew HarrisonI   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:27:32 GMTc9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>e4 Subject: Re: restoring a file from a backup (newbie)? Message-ID: <e61612d34b.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>a  / In message <3e67476e$1_1@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>eK           Martin hepworth <martinh@iosolid-spammerstate-nologic.com> wrote:t   > 	 > Hi guyst > I > well first time for everyhting I guess. Trying to restore a nuked file r > from tape backup - vms 7.0.e >   > the backup script does this...? >   BACKUP/IMAGE/noassist/LABEL="''LABEL'"/REWIND/BLOCK=32768 - : >          /RECORD/IGNORE=(NOBACKUP,INTERLOCK)/FAST DKA0:  > MKA500:BACKUP.BCK /SAVEi >  > N > how do I get a specifi file back (eg SYS$SPECIFIC:[UCX_LPD]UCX$PRINTCAP.DAT)  " $  BACKUP MKA500:BACKUP.BCK/SAVE --    /SELECT=([SYSx.UCX_LPD]UCX$PRINTCAP.DAT) -     DKA0:[SYSx.UCX_LPD]  O Where x is the system root number associated with SYS$SPECIFIC - it's usually 0l  ; (I'm a little surprised that the file wasn't in SYS$COMMON)o   > -- > Martin5 > (remove 'io spammer no' words to get my email addr)i >    Alan   -- i
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/s   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:20:29 +0000 (UTC)n, From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) Subject: Re: RWMBX problem?b. Message-ID: <b4t30t$35h$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   "Mark Itzcovitz" <mark.itzcovitz@nospam.ntlworld.com> writes in article <Ra7ca.9813$EA6.1636463@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net> dated Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:59:12 -0000:M >I would think it is perfectly normal to catch the process in a read/write on   >mailbox state, when using pipe. >I >I get the same thing.  C I get his result only on my single-processor machines.  On dual- or)L multi-processor alphas, both subprocesses are usually shown as CUR.  UsuallyJ the parent (the one processing the PIPE image itself) is shown as HIB, butF sometimes it appears to be sharing a CPU with one of the subprocesses,7 probably due to SHOW SYS running over a period of time.o  9 >"Steve Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com> wrote in message ( >Qpar $ pipe show sys | sear sys$pipe rwG >000F1206 steves          RWMBX    3    11441   0 00:00:11.04      5240   L Hard to avoid on a single-CPU machine.  The CUR process shown in SHOW SYS isL always the one running the SHOW SYS command.  The other is generally waitingK to read data from the mailbox, which shows as LEF if there's nothing in theo, mailbox, then RWMBX when there is (I guess).  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgf> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:53:03 -0000 5 From: "Peter Ibbotson" <spambox@ibbotson.demon.co.uk>c Subject: Re: unixh4 Message-ID: <b4s8pv$a8q$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>  K <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:b4q1dj$3bb$22@bob.news.rcn.net...i= > In article <pan.2003.03.12.12.19.13.161339@nospam.invalid>,n  D > I also checked out the terminals...aw damn...now I forgot the techH > term.  The terminal style that I can lift with one hand, everything isB > flat, and <gasp> the screen doesn't seem to flicker.  I can alsoE > see the screen at a 75 degree angle.  They seem to good to be true. E > What's wrong with them?  Also I got senior fart moment when I askede- > the child if I could hook one up to my 386.   L LCD Screens, this year rumour has it they'll finally overtake CRTs for value@ shipments this year and some time next year for number of units.  - The only things that are wrong with them are:HG a) Broken pixels, I think quite a lot (10 or 20) are allowed before thedJ screen is declared broken (so you could return it to the shop), always get9 someone to plug in the one you're buying to check it out.oL b) The resolution is "fixed", they'll support lower resolutions, but they doF it by interpolating between the pixels, so if the screen resolution isI 1024x768 you'ld better set your computer to the same or it'll be "fuzzy".@H (Relevant for those who are getting older and like to work in 800x600 or 640x480 to get "bigger" fonts)     --F Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to replyH Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org  | I own the domain but theres no MX   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 14 Mar 03 12:31:28 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.comn Subject: Re: unixe, Message-ID: <b4skpe$ek2$10@bob.news.rcn.net>  7 In article <20030313181005.2a5657ea.steveo@eircom.net>,r0    Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> wrote: >On Thu, 13 Mar 03 12:48:45 GMT  >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:l >l) >JC> (prices were $250+- for Red Hat and a >JC> $100- for the SUSE) >kD >	Ouch! You want to experiment and try a few things I suspect, which) >those sorts of prices rather discourage.t >iB >	Look at http://www.cheapbytes.com for some more realistic pricesK >for open source on CD. AFAICT these people don't kick back anything to themJ >development effort (or do much apart from burn and ship CDs very cheaply)D >so once you have settled on something you might switch to an update# >subscription or similar that does.y  ; I'm just doing a report of the retail level.  I'm still notc@ impressed with backslide the computer biz appears to have taken.: Also, given a choice of free and buying a tested, complete? distribution package, I'll buy.  I guess I'm old-fashioned thatI way.   /BAH     ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.d   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 14 Mar 03 12:40:44 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.com  Subject: Re: unixt, Message-ID: <b4slar$ek2$11@bob.news.rcn.net>  ' In article <3E70F286.706AE7A5@ev1.net>,o-    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:n >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:m >> f4 >>      [snip...]        [snip...]         [snip...] >>D >> I used some precious energy yesterday and walked into a Best Buy.B >> I read the packaging of Red Hat and something called SUSE (WETHD >> that stands for).  Not one mention of source.  Support was ticked? >> off for the pro packages (prices were $250+- for Red Hat andaB >> $100- for the SUSE).  Also note that there were exactly one boxA >> of each on the shelves and that was it for Unix.  Not a singlesC >> demo was running Unix.  Not a single system on display mentionedg> >> a Unix option.  Once again I tried to access some suggestedC >> web site, and it crashed.  I thought I'd taken my den mother hate5 >> off; I forgot to check if it was welded to my ass.i >>: >IMHO you should *not* buy a Linux CDROM in a plastic wrap? >package. I believe there are *many* who read this group...that-A >would download the Linux you decide you want, burn it on a CD-R,  >and send it to you.   Sigh!  I know that.n  . > .. Saving the $100 to $250 dollars *has* to  >appeal to the Dutch in you...  @ Nope.  Not if I'm buying a pig in a poke.  I said somewhere that= I'm going to learn this biz from the ground up as if I were a7< newbie.  My first step was retail.  Conclusion:  needs work.     >>  D >> In addition, I think I finally saw one of HT-TVs.  Not impressed.G >> I was more impressed by what you guys think you need in screen size.r >> lC >And you gals try to tell us guys that "size doesn't matter". Well, C >it matters to us!!! I have a friend who won't use anything smaller & >than a 19" screen with his computers.  B Us gals are more interested in the quality of the performance thanD the packaging.  Big sticks tend to fizzle when there's only a bit of fuel.  >>E >> I also checked out the terminals...aw damn...now I forgot the technI >> term.  The terminal style that I can lift with one hand, everything is C >> flat, and <gasp> the screen doesn't seem to flicker.  I can alsolF >> see the screen at a 75 degree angle.  They seem to good to be true.F >> What's wrong with them?  Also I got senior fart moment when I asked. >> the child if I could hook one up to my 386. >> c6 >Are you talking about the flat-screen LCD monitors???   Yup.     > .. They haveA >some great ones these days...but they are on the expensive side.   D They were the price of the moby terminal I'm staring at.  $600-$700.: Being able to lift one with one bound hand is very useful.= I traced the cord to see what kind of plug it had.  (I didn't = take it apart) but the outside looked like it would plug intor> my 386.  I asked the question; the kid stops, thinks and says,1 "Is like a 486?"  I think of the 386 new-fangled.u  ? Those notebooks looked awfully tempting, though.  The keyboards.7 sucked but then that seems to be the industry standard.a   /BAH      ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.o   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 14 Mar 03 12:42:10 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.comh Subject: Re: unix , Message-ID: <b4sldh$ek2$12@bob.news.rcn.net>  J In article <3e712eac$0$198$75868355@news.frii.net>, rmk@rmkhome.com wrote:3 >In alt.folklore.computers jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:e >dD >> In addition, I think I finally saw one of HT-TVs.  Not impressed.G >> I was more impressed by what you guys think you need in screen size.i >oD >I still can't figure out why someone would want one. It's just TV.  However,I >I am going to buy another analog TV before my old one dies, so that I'lleJ >have a spare in the future. I have ATT (now Comcast) digital cable with a >box that outputs analog.   D Based on the hype, I don't know what I expected.  Probably somethingC akin to my experience when I was walking towards "The Night Watch".r   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.p   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:01:34 GMTn4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> Subject: Re: unix 8 Message-ID: <pcr37vkpk0qt10r9ju43cefe6gfkbqdlmj@4ax.com>  9 On Fri, 14 Mar 03 12:31:28 GMT in alt.folklore.computers,e jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  8 >In article <20030313181005.2a5657ea.steveo@eircom.net>,1 >   Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:r  >>On Thu, 13 Mar 03 12:48:45 GMT >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>* >>JC> (prices were $250+- for Red Hat and  >>JC> $100- for the SUSE)  >>E >>	Ouch! You want to experiment and try a few things I suspect, whichn* >>those sorts of prices rather discourage. >>C >>	Look at http://www.cheapbytes.com for some more realistic pricesiL >>for open source on CD. AFAICT these people don't kick back anything to theK >>development effort (or do much apart from burn and ship CDs very cheaply):E >>so once you have settled on something you might switch to an updatea$ >>subscription or similar that does. >s< >I'm just doing a report of the retail level.  I'm still notA >impressed with backslide the computer biz appears to have taken.k; >Also, given a choice of free and buying a tested, complete @ >distribution package, I'll buy.  I guess I'm old-fashioned that >way.s  A Scan the cheapo CD-ROM collections in stores: the less commercialw8 distributions sometimes appear; also check internationalA magazines: Linux distros are sometimes attached/included. Most oro@ all of the distros available out there are tested and complete.   9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada  -- iF Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply@ abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com ? abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com lB abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com - abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov				spam trapsI   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:39:57 +0100o, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> Subject: Re: unixn7 Message-ID: <20030314133957.397021e6.steveo@eircom.net>n  " On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:53:03 -00006 "Peter Ibbotson" <spambox@ibbotson.demon.co.uk> wrote:  1 PI> The only things that are wrong with them are:sG PI> a) Broken pixels, I think quite a lot (10 or 20) are allowed beforep   	Yep  H PI> b) The resolution is "fixed", they'll support lower resolutions, but  C 	Yep - and that resolution is too low on all but the most expensiven ones.   5 PI> work in 800x600 or 640x480 to get "bigger" fonts)i  ; 	I go for 1600x1200 or better and turn up the point size tos something readable :)c   	You missed:  A c) They are far too expensive - especially at decent resolutions.n   -- tD C:>WIN                                      |     Directable MirrorsJ The computer obeys and wins.                |A Better Way To Focus The SunH You lose and Bill collects.                 |  licenses available - see:F                                             |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:17:54 GMT ) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>a Subject: Re: unixs' Message-ID: <3E723884.C2A1E1BE@ev1.net>n   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > ) > In article <3E70F286.706AE7A5@ev1.net>,u/ >    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:  > >o9 > >         [snip...]         [snip...]         [snip...], > > 9 > > Are you talking about the flat-screen LCD monitors???e >  > Yup. >  > > .. They haveD > > some great ones these days...but they are on the expensive side. > F > They were the price of the moby terminal I'm staring at.  $600-$700.< > Being able to lift one with one bound hand is very useful.? > I traced the cord to see what kind of plug it had.  (I didn'tv? > take it apart) but the outside looked like it would plug intoo@ > my 386.  I asked the question; the kid stops, thinks and says,3 > "Is like a 486?"  I think of the 386 new-fangled.  > ? Did you ask him if he ever heard of vinyl phonograph records orsB AM radio??? If this is Best Buy, you can bring the darn thing back? if it won't work for you. Of course, Best Buy will charge a 15%f "restocking fee"...r >sA > Those notebooks looked awfully tempting, though.  The keyboardst9 > sucked but then that seems to be the industry standard.  > @ I was forced to use a notebook on my last job...the notebook use@ was in 1998. I connected a regular keyboard and a 17" monitor to@ the notebook. I assume that this is still possible. You can have: your notebook with the comfort of your regular keyboard...   -- -? +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |a? +-------------------------------------------------------------+B   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:26:53 GMTt) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>  Subject: Re: unixg' Message-ID: <3E723A9F.C8E55F11@ev1.net>e   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > 9 > In article <20030313181005.2a5657ea.steveo@eircom.net>,s2 >    Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:! > >On Thu, 13 Mar 03 12:48:45 GMTs > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:l > >i* > >JC> (prices were $250+- for Red Hat and > >JC> $100- for the SUSE) > >eL > >       Ouch! You want to experiment and try a few things I suspect, which+ > >those sorts of prices rather discourage.  > >yJ > >       Look at http://www.cheapbytes.com for some more realistic pricesM > >for open source on CD. AFAICT these people don't kick back anything to the-L > >development effort (or do much apart from burn and ship CDs very cheaply)F > >so once you have settled on something you might switch to an update% > >subscription or similar that does.H > = > I'm just doing a report of the retail level.  I'm still notAB > impressed with backslide the computer biz appears to have taken.< > Also, given a choice of free and buying a tested, completeA > distribution package, I'll buy.  I guess I'm old-fashioned thato > way. > : The free distributions that are downloaded off of the 'net9 are *identical* to the ones that come in the plastic wraph9 boxes. Red Hat Linux is Red Hat Linux, wherever it comes i9 from. All that you will miss is the printed matter...and e9 it is really *not* necessary and less than helpful in thes( ways that a newbie might need help IMHO.   --  ? +-------------------------------------------------------------+n? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |r? +-------------------------------------------------------------+y   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.144 ************************