1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 02 Nov 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 608       Contents: Re: Announcing the FutureVAX, Re: Authorised reseller application - UPDATE, Re: Authorised reseller application - UPDATE Re: Copy of SuperLat Re: Copy of SuperLatB Re: correspondence between access as defined in the UAF and F$MODE) Re: Database selection (was: Advertising) . Re: Daylight to Standard Time Change via Batch% Re: DCL script to change system time. 4 INIT/SHADOW: misleading HELP with respect to /ERASE?8 Re: INIT/SHADOW: misleading HELP with respect to /ERASE?8 Re: INIT/SHADOW: misleading HELP with respect to /ERASE?! Re: INTRODUCING Virtual P*o*e*t*s 5 Re: Object filesystem could be done in VMS as a layer 2 Re: OpenVMS I64 ISV application count now over 500" Re: OpenVMS, Itanium and Blades..." Re: OpenVMS, Itanium and Blades..." Re: OpenVMS, Itanium and Blades... OpenVMS, NAS, Shadowing....   Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  RE: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam  Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam Re: Patrol x Decnet Management RA450 Owner Docs and Software? Re: SIMH used with VMS?  Re: SIMH used with VMS?  Re: SIMH used with VMS?  Re: SIMH: used with VMS?' Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade ' Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade ' Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade # simple advice needed on VAX upgrade ' Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade ' Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade ' Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade ' Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade ' Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade ' Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade ' Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade 1 Re: Speaking of Cincom (Was Re: World Wide Wake]) P SUMMARY: VAX Emulator licensing was( Next VAX/VMS Mig Newsletter on         emulP Re: SUMMARY: VAX Emulator licensing was( Next VAX/VMS Mig Newsletter on         4 Target="_self" (was [survey] Do you use CHARON-VAX?)8 Re: Target="_self" (was [survey] Do you use CHARON-VAX?)- Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question ) To foreign or verb ? That is the question - Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question - Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question - Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question - Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question - Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question - Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question - Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question P Veritas VMS client requested restores - solution found to dramatically  improve  Re: VUP? Re: VUP? Re: VUP? Re: VUP?= Re: what happens when a member of a shadow set is dismounted? 9 what happens when a member of a shadow set is dismounted? = Re: what happens when a member of a shadow set is dismounted? = Re: what happens when a member of a shadow set is dismounted? 3 Re: [OT] US located ISP usable from  over the pond? 3 Re: [OT] US located ISP usable from  over the pond? / [OT] US located ISP usable from  over the pond? # Re: [survey] Do you use CHARON-VAX?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:39:29 +0100 9 From: jan van mastbergen <jandotvandotmastbergen@home.nl> % Subject: Re: Announcing the FutureVAX * Message-ID: <bo15tu$iv8$1@reader11.wxs.nl>  I  From the looks of their website (http://www.emulatorsinternational.com)  D they seem to be doing resale of Charon-VAX and some utilities (home F grown?) combined with services on same. One of their customers is NS, I the Dutch railways. These used to have a lot of VAX hardware, which they  D are now taking out of service. Being the proud owner of 2 uVAX-3100 ! model 10 from about 1993, I know.    Regards, Jan   Didier Morandi wrote: 5 > http://www.didiermorandi.com/vms/FutureVAX_3196.pdf    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 08:29:53 -0500% From: "DAVID TURNER" <DAVID@HPAQ.NET> 5 Subject: Re: Authorised reseller application - UPDATE / Message-ID: <vq7d4f31v2bje8@news.supernews.com>    nope   please forward     thanks'    dt    < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3FA31AB1.F2DAE5B2@fsi.net...  > Island wrote:  > > A > > Well, after 4 months we still have received nothing, not even  notification > > of denial of authorization.  > > G > > If anyone within Compaq/HP knows anyone high up in the Supply chain  within > > HP, please let them know we " > > are waiting to hear from them. > > 4 > > FYI - We ARE a SMALL WOMAN OWNED Company !!! :0) > > J > > Amazing - we have orders being offered to us left right and center for BIG  > > systems, and can't quote. L > > Frighteningly though, our customers can't find anyone else to quote them as	 > > well. L > > AVNET and PIONEER seem to want to push Intel based stuff according to my > > clients  > >  > > Hmm  > / > You have Mark.Gorham's e-mail address, right?  >  > --   > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:42:40 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 5 Subject: Re: Authorised reseller application - UPDATE ' Message-ID: <3FA40CB0.D2B1D8A9@fsi.net>    DAVID TURNER wrote:  >  > nope >  > please forward > 	 > thanks'  >  > dt > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3FA31AB1.F2DAE5B2@fsi.net...  > > 1 > > You have Mark.Gorham's e-mail address, right?   G Add (at) hp dot com onto the end of that (keep the period, but drop the ' apostrophe and "s") and you're all set!    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:38:40 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: Copy of SuperLat ' Message-ID: <3FA40BC0.CD9FBA49@fsi.net>    Dale Dellutri wrote: > V > On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:09:40 -0600, David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > > Memnon Emmanuel wrote:K > > > I've been trying to get a hold of a copy of SuperLAT for either NT4.0 J > > > or Windows 98, but all 3 companies that have owned this product haveJ > > > gone out of bussiness (Meirdian,Soft..something,and a third I forget > > > altogether).. > > > Does anyone have a copy I could try out?L > > > (If this product still exists or is being sold by someone else PLEASE, > > > PLEASE let me know.)= > > Amazing. Your environment's net-folks still tolerate LAT? L > > Note sure what SuperLAT would do for you that can't be served some otherI > > way. Maybe if you describe your quandry in some detail, other posters # > > might have a suggestion or two.  > G > I still need LAT to support actual multisession VT520's that we still F > use because: 1. we have them, and 2. they work without needing a PC.H > If someone made a cheap, good telnet-capable thin client, I'd considerB > it (and thus get rid of LAT), but I haven't seen one yet.  (I'veC > considered building my own using embedded Linux on a single-board  > computer.) > $ > Perhaps the OP has a similar need.   True.   B Last I heard of SuperLAT (roughly 10 years ago), it provided printG service on W/NT via LAT, but little else. Dunno what all it could do in 
 its day...   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Nov 2003 08:07:22 -0800 ' From: memnon@mail.com (Memnon Emmanuel)  Subject: Re: Copy of SuperLat = Message-ID: <d2313732.0311020807.457b3907@posting.google.com>    > > = > >>Amazing. Your environment's net-folks still tolerate LAT?   F Unfortunatley it's the only route possible for our clinet with his VMS legacy application.       > > L > >>Note sure what SuperLAT would do for you that can't be served some otherI > >>way. Maybe if you describe your quandry in some detail, other posters # > >>might have a suggestion or two.    Let me elaborate...   @ The VMS application in question uses a third party queing systemF (nonDEC) for sending and managing printing jobs to LAT ports directly.B This application cannot be modified. That means all print jobs are* sent to specific LAT ports (LTA1000: etc.)  B All was fine and well untill the Greek (both us and our client areF from Greece) IRS decided that every invoice printed had to be verified; by a 'black box device' that sits on a serial port on a PC.   F What this means is that whatever invoicing applicaiton environment youD may have, must now print through a serial port on a PC!! I know what( you must be thinking but this is true!!!  ? Anyway we tested with Pathworks 7.1 but pathworks has abandoned 2 printing to LAT ports since version 6.x (I think).  B So it was either getting our hands on a pre 7 version of Pathworks@ (which we haven't found yet) or SuperLAT which is a very elegantF solution to our very strange problem since it will sit on a PC serving+ PC printers as LAT printers to VMS systems.     > Anyway, any other ideas are welcome for this peculiar problem.   Thanks,  memnon.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:23:38 GMT 9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> K Subject: Re: correspondence between access as defined in the UAF and F$MODE ? Message-ID: <be22a74a4c.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>   # In message <bmu2ob$li2$1@online.de> [           helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote:   5 > In article <3vQ6T81srBWu@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 2 > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  > F > > Well of course -- Remote SYSMAN sessions do not even use LOGINOUT. > E > Right.  So back to the question: is it possible to disable network  + > access but allow remote tasks via SYSMAN?   J How about logging out in SYS$SYLOGIN. I suspect SYSMAN processes don't run SYS$SYLOGIN, so   + $if f$mode().nes."INTERACTIVE" then $logout   ? If SYSMAN does run SYS$SYLOGIN, then allowing OTHER should work    e.g.E if (f$mode().nes."INTERACTIVE).or.(f$mode().nes."OTHER") then $logout   % Unfortunately I can't test this here.    Alan   --  
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Nov 2003 06:55:32 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 2 Subject: Re: Database selection (was: Advertising)3 Message-ID: <IBHEcdLz3pVF@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <00A28365.51A93D87@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:   / > Nailed!  Larry is of course completely right.  > G > In my own defense, all I can say is that if I were really going to be J > involved in developing a geneaological database, I would have acquired aE > lot more domain knowledge before opening my mouth.  (And my bias is  > relational, incidentally.)  H Certainly I believe that, based on the effort put into your VMS Web bookH (a copy of which is in the next room from where I type).  But I think asG we all discuss VMS we like to discuss other aspects of software quality H beyond that which we expect to be delivered shrink-wrapped by HP.  WhileI you are in the habit of gathering domain knowledge, I think it is crucial D that such a step occasionally come up in newsgroup discussions here.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:43:09 GMT 9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> 7 Subject: Re: Daylight to Standard Time Change via Batch ? Message-ID: <c666b94a4c.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>   0 In message <03102722323988@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>3           brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon) wrote:    > Carl Karcher wroteF > > Consider setting sysgen parameter AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV=1 on your 7.3 orD > > later systems (must be the same on all members of a cluster). ItF > > does work as advertised and you can forget about all your previous > > procedures.  > $ > Well I wish it was that easy Carl! > J > In our application environment can not tolerate a snap backwards in timeP > service. It has the potential to cause dupliate records in our RMS ISAM files.  G I think I got this working at my previous site by using one node of the L cluster to use NTP, and using DecnetOSI DTSS to synchronise the cluster. TheI node with DTSS was defined as a DTSS time server, and DTSS sorted out the ( timezone change with a monotonic change.  K I cannot recall exactly what I did, but I think it worked, through at least ) two years of changes between GMT and BST.   P > Too bad there is not an AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV=2 where this option skews the clock byG > the combination of AUTO_DLIGHT_TIMEADJUST and AUTO_DLIGHT_TICKLENGTH.  > Q > The other issue is NTP - which we shutdown prior to the start of the time skew.  >  >  >  > J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*n  > VMS Systems Administrator , > firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   --  
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:47:00 GMT 9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> . Subject: Re: DCL script to change system time.? Message-ID: <02c1b94a4c.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>   9 In message <MCELKPMOKPMNDNKJNIONIEIFCEAA.win@fom.fgan.de> 3           "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote:    > Hello, > M > within the cluster, you can set and synchronize the time with the following  > commands:  >  > 	$  SET TIME="-01:00:00" > 	$  SET TIME/CLUSTER >  > Best regards Rudolf Wingert  >   ) Unless DTSS is running, in which case the    $ncl> update dtss ...    command is required.  C (Yes I did notice the original questioner said he is not using DTSS = automatic update, but that doesn't mean he isn't using DTSS.)    --  
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/    ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 12:55:29 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)= Subject: INIT/SHADOW: misleading HELP with respect to /ERASE? $ Message-ID: <bo0ag1$pol$2@online.de>  B      Compaq strongly recommends that you use the /ERASE qualifier.=      By using the /ERASE qualifier, a merge operation will be A      substantially reduced. Note, however, that the use of /ERASE F      has two side effects that are important considerations for volumeA      shadowing: the setting of the ERASE volume attribute and the @      time it takes to initialize a volume using /ERASE. For more5      information, refer to the description of /ERASE.   F As I understand it, this makes sense if one constructs a fresh shadow C set and then starts writing data to it (not if one initialises new  I members for an existing shadow set).  /ERASE has been around longer than  E /SHADOW and is presumably a security feature.  If security is not an  G issue, shouldn't SET VOLUME/NOERASE be done after the fresh shadow set  F is built, and shouldn't this be mentioned in the HELP?  (Hint: /ERASE 3 can be a performance killer in some circumstances.)    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Nov 2003 01:58:37 -0600 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) A Subject: Re: INIT/SHADOW: misleading HELP with respect to /ERASE? 3 Message-ID: <Qcle8OtMZyiK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   w In article <bo0ag1$pol$2@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: D >      Compaq strongly recommends that you use the /ERASE qualifier.? >      By using the /ERASE qualifier, a merge operation will be C >      substantially reduced. Note, however, that the use of /ERASE H >      has two side effects that are important considerations for volumeC >      shadowing: the setting of the ERASE volume attribute and the B >      time it takes to initialize a volume using /ERASE. For more7 >      information, refer to the description of /ERASE.  > H > As I understand it, this makes sense if one constructs a fresh shadow E > set and then starts writing data to it (not if one initialises new  K > members for an existing shadow set).  /ERASE has been around longer than  G > /SHADOW and is presumably a security feature.  If security is not an  I > issue, shouldn't SET VOLUME/NOERASE be done after the fresh shadow set  H > is built, and shouldn't this be mentioned in the HELP?  (Hint: /ERASE 5 > can be a performance killer in some circumstances.)  >   ;           Yes, and if you read it bit further you see that.   / 4.3.1 Benefits and Side Effects of Using /ERASE   J Compaq strongly recommends that you use the /ERASE qualifier. By using theN /ERASE qualifier, a subsequent merge operation will be substantially reduced.   M If you omit the /ERASE qualifier, then the portions of the volume that do not N contain file system data structures will contain indeterminate data. This dataM can differ from one shadow set member to another. Make sure to take this into L account when using utilities that compare all of the LBNs between shadow set	 members.    O The next time a full merge operation occurs, the presence of this indeterminate O data will cause the merge to take much longer than it would have without use of M the INITIALIZE/SHADOW/ERASE command. When this full merge completes, the LBNs O will contain identical data, and the storage control block (SCB) will no longer I indicate that the /ERASE qualifier was omitted from the INITIALIZE/SHADOW 	 command.    J Note, however, that a side effect of using /ERASE is that the ERASE volumeI attribute is set. In effect, each file on the volume is erased when it is L deleted. Another side effect is that an INITIALIZE/ERASE operation is always- slower than an INITIALIZE/NOERASE operation.    < You can remove the ERASE volume attribute by issuing the SETO VOLUME/NOERASE_ON_DELETE command. For more information about these DCL commands 0 and qualifiers, see the OpenVMS DCL Dictionary.    ---    				Rob    ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:45:15 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)A Subject: Re: INIT/SHADOW: misleading HELP with respect to /ERASE? $ Message-ID: <bo2jna$vb5$1@online.de>  3 In article <Qcle8OtMZyiK@eisner.encompasserve.org>, . young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:   = >           Yes, and if you read it bit further you see that.   L > Note, however, that a side effect of using /ERASE is that the ERASE volumeK > attribute is set. In effect, each file on the volume is erased when it is N > deleted. Another side effect is that an INITIALIZE/ERASE operation is always/ > slower than an INITIALIZE/NOERASE operation.   > > > You can remove the ERASE volume attribute by issuing the SETQ > VOLUME/NOERASE_ON_DELETE command. For more information about these DCL commands 2 > and qualifiers, see the OpenVMS DCL Dictionary.   E Thanks for the pointer (presumably to the documentation).  However, I D still think that the sentences "Note, however, that a side effect ofG using /ERASE is that the ERASE volume attribute is set. In effect, each G file on the volume is erased when it is deleted.", "Another side effect > is that an INITIALIZE/ERASE operation is always slower than anC INITIALIZE/NOERASE operation." and "You can remove the ERASE volume D attribute by issuing the SET VOLUME/NOERASE_ON_DELETE command." are ( important enough to be included in HELP.  H I think it is a big loss that the documentation is no longer provided asC BOOKREADER files.  If I understand things correctly, the BOOKREADER C output and the HTML output were produced from the same source, so I D really don't understand why BOOKREADER was discontinued.  With HTML,G there is either One Big File, which is bad since it can take a while to H load (especially if the source is not local), or lots of little files.  E In the latter case, there is no easy way to search an entire book or  . list of books, as is possible with BOOKREADER.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 15:34:26 GMT 2 From: Bob WIllard <BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net>* Subject: Re: INTRODUCING Virtual P*o*e*t*s. Message-ID: <6oQob.77058$Tr4.198526@attbi_s03>   Dan O'Reilly wrote:   - > At 09:54 AM 10/31/2003, William Webb wrote:  > ? >> Remember when there was much speculation as to what the "EV" - >> in the Alpha chip revs actually stood for?  >>J >> One of the more interesting suggestions was "Electoluminescent Vlasic"-E >> (Vlasic is a brand of pickle in case your shop doesn't stock them)  >> >> Hence my submission:  >>5 >> "Characterization of Organic Illumination Systems"  >>H >> http://www.research.compaq.com/wrl/techreports/html/TN-13/pickle.html >>C >> (The research, of course, was done during the d|i|g|i|t|a|l era, G >>  as it is generally accepted that the concept of original scientific A >>  research was one of many things that was forgotten during the ( >>  d|i|g|i|t|a|l => Compaq transition.) >>F >> I had an mpeg once showing one of these little beauties flaming outD >> after almost a minute of luminescing, but I've forgotten where it >> was located.  >  > H > I saw a demo at a Wizard session at DECUS in Anaheim in, I think, '97.J > The smell of a smoked pickle is REALLY interesting in a confined room... >  > ------L > +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+L > | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |L > | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |L > | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |L > | http://www.process.com        |                                        |L > +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ >  >   F The (120V 60Hz) EV was one of the non-traditional musical devices usedA in a 1993 performance at U.Miami; tuned water glasses and various D banging/clanging entities were also employed, along with traditional stringed and other instruments.   I The composer, Steven Willard, has two (going for three) degrees in music; I so, I contend that the EV is more than a novelty act - it has a permanent ) place, however minor, in musical history.  --   Cheers, Bob    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 10:49:04 -0500 . From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart-nospam@gce.com>> Subject: Re: Object filesystem could be done in VMS as a layer+ Message-ID: <bo0l0j$1k6$1@bob.news.rcn.net>   B Yep...not a small hack at all. However, with the current publicityA of Microsoft working something along these lines, it seemed worth D while to point up design schemes that others have done, many of themA several years back, that would look similar. A clean design would B need to have some support in RMS, XQP, etc., just so the syntacticC cookies could be distinguished from ordinary names. Something could D be put together with the Spiralog entry points, I think, but a layerF above them and below RMS would be playing a rather complex game tryingD to hide itself from both, and would still have to deal with the factE the Spiralog entry points were wired to that filesystem where in fact # something different would be there.   D There's a lot of technical stuff that doesn't get out much. How muchB discussion of ways to get anything different working in a cluster,> for example, gets published? That is one of the higher hurdlesA filesystem designs have to get over in VMS land. (Microsoft, with @ a shared-nothing model, has far less work in that area.) Caching= issues are also nontrivial in that environment. Yet there are B designs and explorations of paths others may not explore for years over on Spit Brook Road...       Hoff Hoffman wrote: H > In article <3FA2C13B.7040806@gce.com>, G Everhart <ge@gce.com> writes:R > :I wrote the following around 1997 to some folks, but it never had any followup. > H >   Andy and I and others have discussed similar layering within the I/OI >   subsystem on occasion, and this particular proposal looks reminiscent I >   to what Atria ClearCase calls a VOB; to a data-driven simulation of a  >   disk volume. > H >   This layering would involve connections into the XQP and the abilityJ >   to provide alternative file systems (via a traditional ACP file systemI >   implementation, or by sliding support into the I/O subsystem directly K >   adjacent to or in place of the existing XQP code), as well as requiring ? >   connections into MOUNT and other volume-related processing.  > D >   This is not a small ("midnight engineering") project, of course. > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------M >     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq P >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------G >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 02:36:53 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> ; Subject: Re: OpenVMS I64 ISV application count now over 500 K Message-ID: <95_ob.151929$3f.89505@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>    Fabio Cardoso wrote:7 > What worries me more is the great amount of redundant 2 > product running under OVMS. Like Schedluers soft0 > and Tape Managament Systems. I think HP should7 > help this companies in consolidate with each other or 3 > gave the low market share products for OpenVMS to 5 > ... OpenVMS.org for example ! Or sell this products  > to another partner ... ! >  > - > How many Databases are running under OVMS ?  >  > For me it enough Oracle RDB !  > 	 > Regards  > FC > > > keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) wrote in message; > news:<cf15391e.0310141019.442e7ac4@posting.google.com>... D >> "HP OpenVMS: ISV commitment and enthusiasm grow for HP OpenVMS on >> Integrity servers >>C >> With more than 500 ISV applications now committed to port to the G >> OpenVMS operating system on HP Integrity servers, ISV commitment and C >> enthusiasm continue to grow. "The momentum continues!" says Mark H >> Gorham, Vice President, OpenVMS systems. "This milestone demonstratesE >> that HP and its partners are true to our commitment to ensure that F >> OpenVMS customers experience a smooth evolution as they incorporate? >> OpenVMS on the Integrity server family into their OpenVMS on C >> AlphaServer environments. We expect these application numbers to ? >> increase rapidly after we ship the native compilers with the G >> evaluation release of OpenVMS v 8.1 for early adopters in December."  >>F >> For more information about OpenVMS on Integrity servers, visit this >> website:  >>L http://www.hp.com/products1/evolution/alpha_retaintrust/openvms/boot0703.htm l"    K Concrete plans of action were written and sent to Dale Howard and others in L 2000 to expand the number of ISV's writing software for VMS and the range of& applications & tools available on VMS.  H Either those plans/suggestions were not acted upon, or perhaps it's justG that none of the ISV's who weren't already producing for the VMS market L thought it would be worth their time given the dearth of advertising by backH then Compaq and the total absence now by HP to expand the OpenVMS market   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:46:11 -0800 / From: Greg Cagle <news@removethisgregcagle.com> + Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Itanium and Blades... / Message-ID: <vq8ofb52kbdf2b@corp.supernews.com>    Fabio Cardoso wrote:  A > Do you know if HP will develop Itanium Blades to run OpenVMS ?  : > I am imagining this blades for industrial automation and > massive clustering....  # I doubt it - power and heat issues.    - Greg --  
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:09:17 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Itanium and Blades... ) Message-ID: <3FA46735.34D46ABF@istop.com>    Fabio Cardoso wrote:@ > Do you know if HP will develop Itanium Blades to run OpenVMS ?: > I am imagining this blades for industrial automation and > massive clustering....  I I thought that the whole concept behind blades was the use of inexpensive M commodity boxes stacked on top of each other to support multiple applications ! (or instances of an application).   N Since IA64 won't be inexpensive, and since, for the foreseable future, it willJ generate quite a bit of heat, I would doubt that the "blade" concept wouldL fit.  Licensing would also have to be made such that 64 independant machinesI would be priced competitively with a single machine with 64 cpus, perhaps A partitioned into galaxiy styles offering 4 nodes of 16 cpus each.   N At what number of VMS nodes in a cluster does the addition of additional nodesD not provide any significant value in terms of redundancy and ease of management ?  I I realise that one needs at least 2 boot nodes so that you can do rolling I upgrades. And you'd want enough spare capacity so that the loss of a node  wouldn't take the rest down.  - Would the threshold be at 5 nodes ? 4 nodes ?    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 01:47:27 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Itanium and Blades... 2 Message-ID: <PI6dnZ_dbIYeNTmiRVn-sg@metrocast.net>  < "Greg Cagle" <news@removethisgregcagle.com> wrote in message) news:vq8ofb52kbdf2b@corp.supernews.com...  > Fabio Cardoso wrote: > B > > Do you know if HP will develop Itanium Blades to run OpenVMS ?< > > I am imagining this blades for industrial automation and > > massive clustering.... > % > I doubt it - power and heat issues.   E Well, Intel is releasing a low-voltage, low-power 1 GHz, 1.5 MB cache G Itanic2 in 130 nm., which should offer performance a bit lower than the J original McKinley did but at only about 60% as much power (max 62W, IIRC).J This sounds like the first Itanic that would be even remotely suitable for
 blade use.  L But whether this (or any blade solution) would be particularly attractive asJ the basis for a VMS cluster is not clear.  High-availability clusters tendE to use larger individual systems than a single blade (often with some B separation between them as well), and while VMS certainly supportsI 'scale-out'-style clustering many of the uses to which that is put do not K require anything like the full range of VMS's cluster abilities (i.e., they ( can easily run on far lesser platforms).   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:54:54 -0500" From: "Hal Kuff" <kuff@tessco.com>$ Subject: OpenVMS, NAS, Shadowing....0 Message-ID: <6MCdnVqhu5E0gDmiRVn-vQ@comcast.com>  L     What we would like to do is mirror two disks across a T-3 ..... as a T-3I will pull about 20gb/hour of uncompressed data it seems reasonable that a K pair of HP NAS units could keep up with 10gb per hour..... We would setup a H pair of the NAS boxes on each end of the T-3 and then NFS mount a volumeG from the NAS unit on an OpenVMS system at each end.  One OpenVMS system I would write ot the NFS disk constantly and the blocks would be synched up  with the other system.       Is anyone doing this?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 10:03:17 +0100 ) From: Michael Unger <unger@despammed.com> ) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam : Message-ID: <bo2htv$16kqis$2@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>  F On 2003-11-02 09:26, "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote:   > [...]  > F > Perhaps somewhat surprisingly, simple spam-blocks like the one I useF > seem to work.  After some thought, perhaps that's not so surprising.  F You are the owner of the domain "multiCLOTHESvax.de" and authorized to	 use it???    > [...]  > F > Is it annoying to use a spam block?  Yes.  Is it worth it?  Yes, at J > least now.  I didn't do it for years, manually deleting the spam, which ? > wasn't that much.  The quantity of normal spam has increased  J > dramatically recently, so I now use a spam block (with a new address of K > course!).  Also, virus-infected PCs can also cause email to be sent to a  G > harvested address.  This is a bit more difficult, since well meaning CG > people could store your de-spam-blocked address on a PC, where it is o > accessible to viruses.   Michaelp   -- o; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.o@ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.m= My e-mail account at DECUS Munich will expire on 31-Dec-2003.T   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:16:55 +0100n* From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam?0 Message-ID: <3FA4E7A7.63B21036@sture.homeip.net>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:n > J > In article <bo2htv$16kqis$2@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>, Michael Unger > <unger@despammed.com> writes:. > J > > > Perhaps somewhat surprisingly, simple spam-blocks like the one I useJ > > > seem to work.  After some thought, perhaps that's not so surprising. > >nJ > > You are the owner of the domain "multiCLOTHESvax.de" and authorized to
 > > use it???e > F > No.  I own the m u l t i v a x . d e domain.  The multiclothesvax.deJ > domain does not exist, and I think it is very unlikely that anyone wouldH > register it.  Note that n o n y m o u s . c o m does actually exist; IH > don't know if "John Smith" is aware that he might be causing the folks > there some trouble.  >   F I get a "For sale" sign when I visit that. I'm pretty sure that at one2 time it simply gave me a "does not exist" message.   A > Despammed.com also exists.  Is that some sort of "spam-blockingu > service"?  >   3 If you look, it does say "mail filtration service".i  G > The alternative, putting the spam block in the username instead of in H > the domain part, is not good, since the machine which handles mail for< > that domain will still have to deal with it at some level.  E No problems here. It's a working account and in the month I have beeneG using it for posts, only one spam so far. I reckon that's a success :-)p   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:15:13 +0100 ) From: Michael Unger <unger@despammed.com>]) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spamx: Message-ID: <bo2lts$17e242$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>  F On 2003-11-02 10:50, "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote:  J > In article <bo2htv$16kqis$2@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>, Michael Unger  > <unger@despammed.com> writes:  > I >> > Perhaps somewhat surprisingly, simple spam-blocks like the one I use I >> > seem to work.  After some thought, perhaps that's not so surprising.T >> sI >> You are the owner of the domain "multiCLOTHESvax.de" and authorized toi >> use it??? > G > No.  I own the m u l t i v a x . d e domain.  The multiclothesvax.de fK > domain does not exist, and I think it is very unlikely that anyone would qI > register it.  Note that n o n y m o u s . c o m does actually exist; I cI > don't know if "John Smith" is aware that he might be causing the folks e > there some trouble.s  E I didn't ask about the "multivax" domain because I'd checked already.t@ Many ISPs simply don't accept forged addresses -- so be careful.  A > Despammed.com also exists.  Is that some sort of "spam-blockinge > service"?   G Yes -- or at least they claim to be. But since I registered just two oroE three days ago and put my "old" address into the "Reply-To:" header Is? don't see any difference with respect to the amount of spam and-H worms/viruses I get. The basic filtering service (accessing mail via Web0 interface or mail forwarding) is free of charge.  H > The alternative, putting the spam block in the username instead of in I > the domain part, is not good, since the machine which handles mail for u< > that domain will still have to deal with it at some level.  F Correct. But at least "Swen.A" alias "Sobig.F" doesn't touch addresses) with the phrase "spam" in the local part.    Michaelh   -- d; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.o@ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system. = My e-mail account at DECUS Munich will expire on 31-Dec-2003.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:36:47 +0100D* From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spams0 Message-ID: <3FA4EC4F.6086F9C2@sture.homeip.net>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:d > = > In article <3FA4E7A7.63B21036@sture.homeip.net>, Paul StureB# > <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes:e > N > > > > You are the owner of the domain "multiCLOTHESvax.de" and authorized to > > > > use it???a > > >tJ > > > No.  I own the m u l t i v a x . d e domain.  The multiclothesvax.deN > > > domain does not exist, and I think it is very unlikely that anyone wouldL > > > register it.  Note that n o n y m o u s . c o m does actually exist; IL > > > don't know if "John Smith" is aware that he might be causing the folks > > > there some trouble.n > >oJ > > I get a "For sale" sign when I visit that. I'm pretty sure that at one6 > > time it simply gave me a "does not exist" message. > J > Interesting.  OK, perhaps someone has registered multiclothesvax.de.  On > the other hand, WHY?!?!  :-)  / No, I meant the n o n y m o u s . c o m domain.    > E > > > Despammed.com also exists.  Is that some sort of "spam-blockingn > > > service"?  > >/7 > > If you look, it does say "mail filtration service".- >  > OK.  > K > > > The alternative, putting the spam block in the username instead of intL > > > the domain part, is not good, since the machine which handles mail for@ > > > that domain will still have to deal with it at some level. > >eI > > No problems here. It's a working account and in the month I have beenmK > > using it for posts, only one spam so far. I reckon that's a success :-)o > N > SOME machine handles mail for the MX-record s t u r e . h o m e i p . n e t.  G Yep, dyndns.org, but the point is that I get real mail at this account,tH but only one spam in a month. In fact, I've relieved them of the effectsF of SWEN etc using their DNS lookups, a drop in the ocean that that may be :-)   -- -
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:26:22 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam $ Message-ID: <bo2f3e$qg6$3@online.de>  = In article <f30679fb.0311011550.28bcaa7e@posting.google.com>,m1 fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) writes: o  ; > I am receiving massive spam in my yahoo.com.br mailbox ! t8 > So the Info-Vax manager disabled the sending of emails3 > to my account. Are you having the same problem ?    C If your email address is in a newsgroup or on the web, you will getl spam.   D Perhaps somewhat surprisingly, simple spam-blocks like the one I useD seem to work.  After some thought, perhaps that's not so surprising.E Let's face it, though they do annoy us, spammers don't do it to annoyrI us, they do it to make money.  They pay money to get addresses from spam uG harvesters.  And these addresses must be good addresses, otherwise the  E spam harvesters---who are also in it for the money---could just make  E them up.  Since they can easily harvest enough valid addresses, it's gD probably more trouble than it's worth to remove spam blocks.  Also, F apparently enough people respond to spam to make it worthwhile to the D spammers.  Again, since otherwise they could just make them up, the G harvesters have to deliver not only real addresses but addresses where  H enough will respond.  It's probably obvious to them that someone with a I spam block will not respond to spam---at least not positively.  In fact, a5 he is more likely to take action against the spammer.p  D Is it annoying to use a spam block?  Yes.  Is it worth it?  Yes, at H least now.  I didn't do it for years, manually deleting the spam, which = wasn't that much.  The quantity of normal spam has increased  H dramatically recently, so I now use a spam block (with a new address of I course!).  Also, virus-infected PCs can also cause email to be sent to a lE harvested address.  This is a bit more difficult, since well meaning cE people could store your de-spam-blocked address on a PC, where it is t accessible to viruses.   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:50:57 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spamo$ Message-ID: <bo2k21$vb5$2@online.de>  H In article <bo2htv$16kqis$2@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>, Michael Unger <unger@despammed.com> writes:   H > > Perhaps somewhat surprisingly, simple spam-blocks like the one I useH > > seem to work.  After some thought, perhaps that's not so surprising. > H > You are the owner of the domain "multiCLOTHESvax.de" and authorized to > use it???h  E No.  I own the m u l t i v a x . d e domain.  The multiclothesvax.de vI domain does not exist, and I think it is very unlikely that anyone would aG register it.  Note that n o n y m o u s . c o m does actually exist; I  G don't know if "John Smith" is aware that he might be causing the folks g there some trouble.e  ? Despammed.com also exists.  Is that some sort of "spam-blocking 
 service"?   F The alternative, putting the spam block in the username instead of in G the domain part, is not good, since the machine which handles mail for g: that domain will still have to deal with it at some level.   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 10:21:54 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam.$ Message-ID: <bo2ls2$btb$1@online.de>  ; In article <3FA4E7A7.63B21036@sture.homeip.net>, Paul Sturea" <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes:   L > > > You are the owner of the domain "multiCLOTHESvax.de" and authorized to > > > use it???i > > H > > No.  I own the m u l t i v a x . d e domain.  The multiclothesvax.deL > > domain does not exist, and I think it is very unlikely that anyone wouldJ > > register it.  Note that n o n y m o u s . c o m does actually exist; IJ > > don't know if "John Smith" is aware that he might be causing the folks > > there some trouble.  > H > I get a "For sale" sign when I visit that. I'm pretty sure that at one4 > time it simply gave me a "does not exist" message.  I Interesting.  OK, perhaps someone has registered multiclothesvax.de.  On n the other hand, WHY?!?!  :-)  C > > Despammed.com also exists.  Is that some sort of "spam-blocking 
 > > service"?  > 5 > If you look, it does say "mail filtration service".a   OK.c  I > > The alternative, putting the spam block in the username instead of in-J > > the domain part, is not good, since the machine which handles mail for> > > that domain will still have to deal with it at some level. > G > No problems here. It's a working account and in the month I have been3I > using it for posts, only one spam so far. I reckon that's a success :-)W  = SOME machine handles mail for the MX-record sture.homeip.net.f   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:35:42 +0100i) From: Michael Unger <unger@despammed.com> ) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spamd: Message-ID: <bo2n0e$16h4l9$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>  F On 2003-11-02 11:21, "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote:  = > In article <3FA4E7A7.63B21036@sture.homeip.net>, Paul Sturec$ > <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes:  >  >> [...] >>  I >> I get a "For sale" sign when I visit that. I'm pretty sure that at one 5 >> time it simply gave me a "does not exist" message.h > K > Interesting.  OK, perhaps someone has registered multiclothesvax.de.  On   > the other hand, WHY?!?!  :-)  * I simply get an "address not found" error.   > [...].   Michael-   -- -; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. @ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.4= My e-mail account at DECUS Munich will expire on 31-Dec-2003.7   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:01:22 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spam $ Message-ID: <bo2rmi$e0k$1@online.de>  H In article <bo2lts$17e242$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>, Michael Unger <unger@despammed.com> writes:   G > I didn't ask about the "multivax" domain because I'd checked already.tB > Many ISPs simply don't accept forged addresses -- so be careful.  H You mean that their news servers won't accept posts from "forged" (i.e. D spam-blocked; "forge" usually means that the post claims to be from F someone it isn't) addresses?  If so, then they are saying "if you use G our news server, then you have to use an email address which will then a> recieve a lot of spam".  I'd move to another ISP in that case.  H > Correct. But at least "Swen.A" alias "Sobig.F" doesn't touch addresses+ > with the phrase "spam" in the local part.O  G I get all my mail on VMS, so spam is spam.  The only worry is the time T$ taken to recognise it and delete it.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:20:25 GMT ( From: Tapani Rundgren <NoSpam@telia.com>) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spamt4 Message-ID: <ZL5pb.36017$dP1.119829@newsc.telia.net>   Fabio Cardoso wrote:; > I am receiving massive spam in my yahoo.com.br mailbox !  8 > So the Info-Vax manager disabled the sending of emails3 > to my account. Are you having the same problem ? w > 	 > Regards. >  > FCI Well, I was stupid and created an email account at google to participate a in comp.os.vms etc.rD After that, I have been receiving between 5-10 spam mails every day.C Most of them with attachments which have masks, worms, viruses etc. F So, for some time now, I don't use Windows/Outlook to check my mailbox' (most of the crap is targeting Windows)I; I use Mozilla ThunderBird on Linux, or webmail from my ISP.d< Hopefully I will soon get enough cash to get a VMS machine;) -- n$ Rundgren dot Tapani at telia dot com   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:04:21 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spamt$ Message-ID: <bo2rs5$e0k$2@online.de>  ; In article <3FA4EC4F.6086F9C2@sture.homeip.net>, Paul Sture)" <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes:   L > > > I get a "For sale" sign when I visit that. I'm pretty sure that at one8 > > > time it simply gave me a "does not exist" message. > > L > > Interesting.  OK, perhaps someone has registered multiclothesvax.de.  On  > > the other hand, WHY?!?!  :-) > 1 > No, I meant the n o n y m o u s . c o m domain.   B OK.  My faith in the rationality of humanity is restored somewhat.  9 There is an A-record for n o n y m o u s . c o m and www.    216.40.214.120  C As you say, it is an ad offering to sell it.  Perhaps "John Smith"   should buy it.  :-)e   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:06:27 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spamb$ Message-ID: <bo2s02$e0k$3@online.de>  H In article <bo2n0e$16h4l9$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>, Michael Unger <unger@despammed.com> writes:   ? > > In article <3FA4E7A7.63B21036@sture.homeip.net>, Paul Sturet& > > <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes:  > > 
 > >> [...] > >> :K > >> I get a "For sale" sign when I visit that. I'm pretty sure that at one-7 > >> time it simply gave me a "does not exist" message.r > > M > > Interesting.  OK, perhaps someone has registered multiclothesvax.de.  On    > > the other hand, WHY?!?!  :-) > , > I simply get an "address not found" error.  D That's correct.  There was some confusion which has been cleared up.  F Personally, I think that anyone who registers a domain containing the H string "NOSPAM", "REMOVETHIS" or whatever is asking for trouble.  While F technically folks shouldn't use domains which don't belong to them, I E wouldn't have too much sympathy with folks who register domain names i4 which are obviously spam-blocked versions of others.   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:08:06 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spamh$ Message-ID: <bo2s36$e0k$4@online.de>  D In article <ZL5pb.36017$dP1.119829@newsc.telia.net>, Tapani Rundgren <NoSpam@telia.com> writes: e   > Fabio Cardoso wrote:= > > I am receiving massive spam in my yahoo.com.br mailbox !  : > > So the Info-Vax manager disabled the sending of emails5 > > to my account. Are you having the same problem ? t > >  > > Regards  > >  > > FCK > Well, I was stupid and created an email account at google to participate s > in comp.os.vms etc. F > After that, I have been receiving between 5-10 spam mails every day.E > Most of them with attachments which have masks, worms, viruses etc.nH > So, for some time now, I don't use Windows/Outlook to check my mailbox) > (most of the crap is targeting Windows)l= > I use Mozilla ThunderBird on Linux, or webmail from my ISP.i> > Hopefully I will soon get enough cash to get a VMS machine;)  A You'll still get spam, but viruses and worms won't do any damage.h  G You can get VMS machines for free, and even reasonably fast and modern g ones for, say, less than $100.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 06:50:46 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>e) Subject: RE: OT:  This newsgroup and spamk9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEBGIGAA.tom@kednos.com>A  2 You should be able to use Outlook if you want, the3 problem is that the MTA is not doing any filtering.s  3 If you run your own SMTP server then you can filtera3 out the crap.  I use MX5.3 from www.madgoat.com andE7 here is an excerpt from the last few entries in the log  file  ?  2-NOV-2003 05:23:23.13:  MX SMTP server: rejected message fromc: <zxvtbdydz@canada.com> sent by black-holed system [81.202.! 52.122] (on list dnsbl.njabl.org)E?  2-NOV-2003 06:05:59.84:  MX SMTP server: rejected message fromt9 <robinbaker@onetel.net.uk> sent by [212.67.96.159] due toi. RFC822 header rule [To: "*net *] [rule id 118]?  2-NOV-2003 06:07:27.68:  MX SMTP server: rejected message from : <glgsgmmwl@yahoo.ca> sent by black-holed system [24.141.17  7.146] (on list dnsbl.njabl.org)?  2-NOV-2003 06:19:29.51:  MX SMTP server: rejected message fromE: <JohnRogers@mx128.optny8.biz> sent by black-holed system [( 66.230.79.128] (on list dnsbl.njabl.org)?  2-NOV-2003 06:32:08.24:  MX SMTP server: rejected message fromc: <p.msheffieldat@syselog.fr> sent by [211.170.144.81] due t= o RFC822 header rule [Content-Type: text/html*] [rule id 122] ?  2-NOV-2003 06:45:24.46:  MX SMTP server: rejected message frome: <j.woodsonkt@yahoo.fr> sent by black-holed system [218.38.! 95.166] (on list dnsbl.njabl.org)h  L The second item is most liekly a virus, the blackholed rejections are likely spamH exploiting open relays and the penulitmate item is probably advertising. You canoI add an override rule to allow text/html, from specific sites if you want.E
 The filter supports regular expressions.o   >-----Original Message-----u0 >From: Tapani Rundgren [mailto:NoSpam@telia.com]( >Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 3:20 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com) >Subject: Re: OT: This newsgroup and spam, >a >  >Fabio Cardoso wrote:E; >> I am receiving massive spam in my yahoo.com.br mailbox !c9 >> So the Info-Vax manager disabled the sending of emailst3 >> to my account. Are you having the same problem ?o >>
 >> Regards >> >> FC I >Well, I was stupid and created an email account at google to participateb >in comp.os.vms etc.E >After that, I have been receiving between 5-10 spam mails every day.eD >Most of them with attachments which have masks, worms, viruses etc.G >So, for some time now, I don't use Windows/Outlook to check my mailboxe( >(most of the crap is targeting Windows)< >I use Mozilla ThunderBird on Linux, or webmail from my ISP.= >Hopefully I will soon get enough cash to get a VMS machine;)e >-- % >Rundgren dot Tapani at telia dot come >w >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). B >Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/2003 >i ---i& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/2003V   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:28:26 +0100e) From: Michael Unger <unger@despammed.com>i) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spame: Message-ID: <bo36hj$17njed$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>  F On 2003-11-02 13:01, "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote:  J > In article <bo2lts$17e242$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>, Michael Unger  > <unger@despammed.com> writes:  > H >> I didn't ask about the "multivax" domain because I'd checked already.C >> Many ISPs simply don't accept forged addresses -- so be careful.l > J > You mean that their news servers won't accept posts from "forged" (i.e. F > spam-blocked; "forge" usually means that the post claims to be from  > someone it isn't) addresses?  B "Forged" meaning an invalid domain name or an e-mail address which= doesn't belong to the poster. ("news.individual.de", formerlyf< "news.cis.dfn.de", for example does not accept postings fromE non-existing domains. Since you have to register you have to supply a C valid e-mail address where your account/login data can be sent to.).  H >                               If so, then they are saying "if you use I > our news server, then you have to use an email address which will then - > recieve a lot of spam".'  F Correct -- but there are alternatives: free mail providers (GMX e.g.),D filtering services, local filtering if bandwidth doesn't matter, ...  @ >                          I'd move to another ISP in that case. > I >> Correct. But at least "Swen.A" alias "Sobig.F" doesn't touch addresses , >> with the phrase "spam" in the local part. > I > I get all my mail on VMS, so spam is spam.  The only worry is the time o& > taken to recognise it and delete it.  D Spams are typically 5 to 10KB, worms 100 to 300KB each. The download. time is relevant for me (dial-up access only).   Michaela   -- l; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.l@ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.,= My e-mail account at DECUS Munich will expire on 31-Dec-2003.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:36:58 +0100 ) From: Michael Unger <unger@despammed.com>u) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spami: Message-ID: <bo36hk$17njed$2@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>  F On 2003-11-02 13:08, "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote:   > [...]t > I > You can get VMS machines for free, and even reasonably fast and modern n  > ones for, say, less than $100.  , Are you selling a DS25 for $100 or less? ;-)   Michaelc   -- s; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. @ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.s= My e-mail account at DECUS Munich will expire on 31-Dec-2003.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:15:32 GMT - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>p) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spamn< Message-ID: <oc9pb.2020$Bf7.1106097@news1.news.adelphia.net>   Tapani Rundgren wrote: > Fabio Cardoso wrote: > C >> I am receiving massive spam in my yahoo.com.br mailbox ! So the  2 >> Info-Vax manager disabled the sending of emails3 >> to my account. Are you having the same problem ?S
 >> Regards > K > Well, I was stupid and created an email account at google to participate s > in comp.os.vms etc.lF > After that, I have been receiving between 5-10 spam mails every day.    Doing some obvous munging helps.  C But the real secret is to have a postmaster that refuses to accept 2= e-mail from I.P. addresses that are known to be sending spam.o  E Almost all spam is coming from I.P. addresses that will never send a .H real e-mail, and most new sources are identified by spam haters and put A in various lists in a format that is easy for postmasters to use.   E Of course the Postmaster has to have good judgement as to what lists i that they select.   E But most spam can be eliminated with out doing any content analysis, P- just checking the headers at the mail server.l  F If you are doing content analysis, the thing to check is the the I.P. H address that any links in the e-mail resolve to.  These are also easily 4 looked up in lists that spam haters are maintaining.  D These lists are maintained by spam haters, and used by postmasters, E because they have noticed that many networks will not fix their spam  F problems until their own users complain that no one will accept their  outgoing e-mail anymore.  D While most posters here pay a fixed rate for e-mail, a large e-mail F server pays a metered rate.  And by using these lists to reject spam, I they save operating cash, and it can be in the thousands of U.S. dollars  
 per month.   -John- wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only6   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 15:48:33 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)) Subject: Re: OT:  This newsgroup and spamr$ Message-ID: <bo390h$ck8$1@online.de>  H In article <bo36hk$17njed$2@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>, Michael Unger <unger@despammed.com> writes:   K > > You can get VMS machines for free, and even reasonably fast and modern  " > > ones for, say, less than $100. > . > Are you selling a DS25 for $100 or less? ;-)  H No.  I don't have a DS25.  The newest machine I have is an ALPHAstation E 255/233, built in about 1996.  It is also the fastest, though I have  " some slower ones with more memory.  F The original poster was talking about newsgroup access.  That doesn't E need a powerful machine.  A small VAXstation is more than enough for e< that, sending and receiving email, running a web server etc.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:04:38 +0800V, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>' Subject: Re: Patrol x Decnet Managemente- Message-ID: <87u15mg93d.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   0 fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) writes:  F > There is no product to check if a Decnet node is "up", like a Decnet" > ping ! We have Tivoli, Patrol...   You don't need a `product'.i  ' MC NCP TELL <area_router> SHOW ACT NODEn  > You can also send all the DECnet events to a set of monitoring nodes for this.t   -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.V@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 05:52:06 GMT0/ From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> ' Subject: RA450 Owner Docs and Software?t. Message-ID: <9Y0pb.82020$HS4.681158@attbi_s01>  H Does anyone know of a link to any on-line copies of the manuals and docsG for the RA450 (DS-SWXRA-W0)?  I recently picked up one but got no papertH with it at all and would like to know about details like troubleshooting the EMU & controller LEDs, etc.   I Also, does anyone know what the final version of the controller software?3I Is there any way to get PCMCIA cards loaded with a copy if I don't have a: recent copy?   Thanks,  rick --  J Richard L. Dyson                                      rick-dyson@uiowa.eduK   _   _  _____                      http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/aJ | | | ||_   _|  Systems Administrator III --- INFORMM-Cerner Systems Group< | | | |  | |    The University of Iowa Hospitals and ClinicsJ | \_/ | _| |_   Information Systems Dept. BT1000 GH   Office: 319/384-7016K   \___/ |_____|  Iowa City, IA 52242-1052                 FAX: 319/384-7020 M (Consulting to the Physics & Astronomy Department & College of Public Health)t   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:02:58 +0100B" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>  Subject: Re: SIMH used with VMS?4 Message-ID: <3fa3a0f3$0$13290$626a54ce@news.free.fr>  I No probs, I do have plenty of solutions. What was missing was the HOWTO. e6 Many thanks for the numerous pointers I found in here.   Happy All Saints Day.f   D.   H Vlems wrote:  M > It is cheating somewhat but the free picoVAX emulator from the Charon folkseK > has support for Windows CD roms. Use the makedisk utility (available from N > the same site) to create a couple of RA82's and attach them to picoVAX. Boot > off the CD, that's it.K > picoVAX only runs for a couple of months and slowly decreases the maximumeN > uptime of the simulated processor. But once you have one VMS disk you're all > set for simh.dH > I can easily burn a VMS image readable under a windows system for you.J > Another method is to use linux or unix and make a raw copy of the VMS cd > (the dd command).l >  > Hans >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:30:18 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)  Subject: Re: SIMH used with VMS?; Message-ID: <3fa3a75a.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>B   [Getting the VMS OS CD to SIMH]   ' H Vlems (hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl) wrote: J > Another method is to use linux or unix and make a raw copy of the VMS cd > (the dd command).m  F Though, if you operate SIMH under Linux (or any other *ix, I suspect),- you can access the CD-ROM from SIMH directly.v   cu,a   Martin  A P.S.: Has anyone yet looked into porting the pcap library to VMS?o@ (needed for SIMH to have Ethernet access, e.g. when running SIMH under OpenVMS Alpha).l -- eD                        |  Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer1   OpenVMS: When you    |  work: mv@pdv-systeme.dewE   KNOW where you want  |     http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ 8   to go today.         |  home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 05:50:09 GMTy% From: Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net>a  Subject: Re: SIMH used with VMS?3 Message-ID: <slrnbq96og.j1o.rivie@Stench.no.domain>d  K In article <f30679fb.0311011603.8ee88e5@posting.google.com>, Fabio Cardoso a wrote:6 > Why HP dont liberate MicroVMS ! I remember it was a 5 > version of  VMS which used to consume low memory ! a  G I'm no expert, but IIRC the whole point of MicroVMS was to make an RX50lE distribution possible. The pieces provided with MicroVMS are selected B bits of normal VMS. For example, MicroVMS included support for theB MicroVAX II, but omitted support for the VAX-11/780. It was just a5 tailored distribution for a specific set of machines..  H Even tailored to support just a small number of machines, MicroVMS still& made an impressive pile of floppies... -- r
 Roger Ivie rivie@ridgenet.net <input type crash>   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:49:28 GMT , From: "P.Lj" <plj@MAROONPbyron.ext.telia.se>! Subject: Re: SIMH: used with VMS?i@ Message-ID: <Xns942696CD8DD3Bplj69byronextteliase@195.67.237.51>  ( Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net> wrote in, news:slrnbq6aue.87h.rivie@Stench.no.domain:   E > In article <3fa320fb$0$27028$626a54ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandi 	 > wrote:   >> Roger Ivie wrote: >>> F >>> The key part of it is making an image of the CD in a file that youA >>> can attach to SimH, since SimH couldn't talk to a raw Winders> >>> device.  >> 9& >> Too late. I'm closing in two hours. > H > Hmm. I thought I'd do a quick HOWTO showing how to do it, but I've runF > into a spot of trouble myself. The hobbyist CD doesn't recognize the2 > CPU. See http://anachronda.webhop.org/howto.html    J I tried to run it on an image from a VAX-6000 VMS but it didn't work, CPU  not supported.    	 >>> ^P.Ljk   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:01:46 +0100 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>0 Subject: Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade0 Message-ID: <3FA4C7FA.2AB4E76A@sture.homeip.net>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:, > D > I've done fresh installs from CD on VAX and ALPHA, and upgrades onD > ALPHA, but have never done an upgrade on VAX.  I was planning to aG > couple of weeks ago, but then got confused on one point while readingb
 > the manual.  > A > It talks about booting from [SYSF] during the upgrade.  Is thisaA > something which is invoked automatically somehow by the upgradeeJ > procedure, or do I need to specify this at the console.  If so, should II > change the default boot flags (assuming that the upgrade procedure does-C > automatic reboots), or (assuming the upgrade procedure doesn't do ; > automatic reboots) should I boot manually from this root?n >g  D VAX upgrades have used the [SYSF] route for about 20 years now. It'sD long time since I did a VAX upgrade, but from what I recall, it putsC sufficent files in there to do a boot, from where it can access thea9 files in SYS$COMMON, [SYSn] etc without access conflicts.,  D No you should not reset the default boot flags. You boot manually at= this stage. [SYSF] will be cleared of its contents when done.h  E The corollary of this is that you should never use [SYSF] as a normal?H boot directory, as a future upgrade may wipe it. For example, in my VAX H days I always used to put standalone backup in [SYSE] (and on data disks too).     iI > Towards the end of the reboot procedure, IIRC one boots from the normal G > system root (in my case [SYS0]).  If manual intervention is required, : > then it's not clear to me exactly when I have to switch. > J > I am upgrading from 7.2 to 7.3.  I have the 7.1 docs, but can't find theF > information I need there (in the Installation and Upgrade Manual forI > VAX).  I guess nothin in the VAX upgrade procedure has changed from 7.1"	 > to 7.3.  > F > The ALPHA approach of booting from CD seems to be easier; is there a' > reason that this is not done for VAX?   G History I assume. Probably a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".m   -- .
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:43:27 +0100r* From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>0 Subject: Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade0 Message-ID: <3FA4D1BF.7058C4F8@sture.homeip.net>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:c > = > In article <3FA4C7FA.2AB4E76A@sture.homeip.net>, Paul Sturet# > <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes:d > H > > No you should not reset the default boot flags. You boot manually atA > > this stage. [SYSF] will be cleared of its contents when done.a > 
 > OK, thanks.d > I > > The corollary of this is that you should never use [SYSF] as a normalcK > > boot directory, as a future upgrade may wipe it. For example, in my VAXsL > > days I always used to put standalone backup in [SYSE] (and on data disks	 > > too).u > 7 > Isn't [SYSE] (now) the default for standalone backup?a  B Now you remind me, I think it has been for a long time, maybe even3 before I came across the use of [SYSF] in upgrades.    -- r
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:53:34 +0100 ) From: Michael Unger <unger@despammed.com>e0 Subject: Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade: Message-ID: <bo2htt$16kqis$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>  F On 2003-11-02 09:16, "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote:  = > In article <3FA4C7FA.2AB4E76A@sture.homeip.net>, Paul Sturev$ > <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes:  >  > [...]s > H >> The corollary of this is that you should never use [SYSF] as a normalK >> boot directory, as a future upgrade may wipe it. For example, in my VAX  K >> days I always used to put standalone backup in [SYSE] (and on data disksl >> too). > 7 > Isn't [SYSE] (now) the default for standalone backup?e  G It is and has been for a long time the *default* on a *system* disk andnG I've used it on non-system disks too; but IIRC [SYS0] is the default onm non-system disks.    Michaelh   -- s; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.d@ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system. = My e-mail account at DECUS Munich will expire on 31-Dec-2003.o   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 22:23:17 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply), Subject: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade$ Message-ID: <bo1bol$spo$1@online.de>  B I've done fresh installs from CD on VAX and ALPHA, and upgrades onC ALPHA, but have never done an upgrade on VAX.  I was planning to a mF couple of weeks ago, but then got confused on one point while reading  the manual.P  @ It talks about booting from [SYSF] during the upgrade.  Is this @ something which is invoked automatically somehow by the upgrade I procedure, or do I need to specify this at the console.  If so, should I iH change the default boot flags (assuming that the upgrade procedure does B automatic reboots), or (assuming the upgrade procedure doesn't do 9 automatic reboots) should I boot manually from this root?w  H Towards the end of the reboot procedure, IIRC one boots from the normal F system root (in my case [SYS0]).  If manual intervention is required, 8 then it's not clear to me exactly when I have to switch.  H I am upgrading from 7.2 to 7.3.  I have the 7.1 docs, but can't find theD information I need there (in the Installation and Upgrade Manual forH VAX).  I guess nothin in the VAX upgrade procedure has changed from 7.1  to 7.3.t  E The ALPHA approach of booting from CD seems to be easier; is there a ,% reason that this is not done for VAX?-   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:44:25 -0500n* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>0 Subject: Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade' Message-ID: <3FA4454B.D2A64C@istop.com>d  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:eA > It talks about booting from [SYSF] during the upgrade.  Is this A > something which is invoked automatically somehow by the upgrade 9 > procedure, or do I need to specify this at the console.   K Either way, the upgrade procedure should be telling you something like "thelK upgrade procedure will now shutdown your system and reboot XXXX (where XXXX M may be "automatically from a different root" or "manually, you'll have to askh" the system to boot from root "F").  L Where this may matter is if you already have a F root, the upgrade procedure7 might be messing with it. (if that is really the case).e  I Aren't the 7.3 upgrade procedures on-line at the VMS documentation site ?D  K As far as booting off CD, Since not all VAXes are able to boot from CD, theg. upgrade procedure was probably left unchanged.   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:16:53 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)0 Subject: Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade$ Message-ID: <bo2ehl$qg6$2@online.de>  ; In article <3FA4C7FA.2AB4E76A@sture.homeip.net>, Paul Sture " <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes:   F > No you should not reset the default boot flags. You boot manually at? > this stage. [SYSF] will be cleared of its contents when done.s   OK, thanks.   G > The corollary of this is that you should never use [SYSF] as a normaltJ > boot directory, as a future upgrade may wipe it. For example, in my VAX J > days I always used to put standalone backup in [SYSE] (and on data disks > too).a  5 Isn't [SYSE] (now) the default for standalone backup?l   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:15:24 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)0 Subject: Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade$ Message-ID: <bo2ees$qg6$1@online.de>  0 In article <3FA4454B.D2A64C@istop.com>, JF Mezei$ <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:   C > > It talks about booting from [SYSF] during the upgrade.  Is this,C > > something which is invoked automatically somehow by the upgraden; > > procedure, or do I need to specify this at the console.  > M > Either way, the upgrade procedure should be telling you something like "theaM > upgrade procedure will now shutdown your system and reboot XXXX (where XXXX O > may be "automatically from a different root" or "manually, you'll have to askC$ > the system to boot from root "F").  F So I just have to @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL and follow the instructions.   Sounds easy enough.y  N > Where this may matter is if you already have a F root, the upgrade procedure9 > might be messing with it. (if that is really the case).7   No, no [SYSF].  K > Aren't the 7.3 upgrade procedures on-line at the VMS documentation site ?u  G Probably.  As a BOOKREADER fan, I usually use my 7.1 documentation CD, dC as long as I suspect that nothing has changed (and I doubt the VAX a upgrade procedure has changed).r   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 10:10:26 +0100e" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>0 Subject: Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade4 Message-ID: <3fa4ca03$0$10400$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   Paul Sture wrote:    > For example, in my VAX m7 > days I always used to put standalone backup in [SYSE]o  G This is pure documented standard, AFAIR Paul, pure documented standard.e   D "I love" Standards   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:33:37 -0500& From: "Chris Moore" <just@my.twocents>0 Subject: Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade6 Message-ID: <aI7pb.354$Pg1.7473@news20.bellglobal.com>  I As I recall, prior to v5 you had to tell STABACKIT where to put the root, J (SYSE was strongly suggested).  Since then I suppose you'd need to tell it. NOT to.  Non-system disks just put it in SYS0.  I On the original query, almost all VAX h'ware will boot automatically from+F the correct roots at the various stages, though the warning message isI displayed regardless.  I think such antiquities as 11/730's, 11/750's andDK even some 6000's had trouble occasionally, depending on microcode revs.  If,E your particular hardware just kicks out to the console prompt betweenwK stages, follow the previously displayed instructions to get it going again, I and all should be fine.  7.1 ==> 7.3 is a single-step upgrade iirc, so ate" least you only have to do it once.    / "Didier Morandi" <no@spam.com> wrote in messaget. news:3fa4ca03$0$10400$626a54ce@news.free.fr... > Paul Sture wrote:  >' > > For example, in my VAX9 > > days I always used to put standalone backup in [SYSE]b > I > This is pure documented standard, AFAIR Paul, pure documented standard.o >  > D "I love" Standards >"   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:50:26 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)0 Subject: Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade$ Message-ID: <bo35ji$j80$1@online.de>  D In article <aI7pb.354$Pg1.7473@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Chris Moore" <just@my.twocents> writes:    K > and all should be fine.  7.1 ==> 7.3 is a single-step upgrade iirc, so ate$ > least you only have to do it once.  A I mentioned I was using my 7.1 doc CD, but am upgrading from 7.2.w   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 10:10:42 -0500& From: "Chris Moore" <just@my.twocents>0 Subject: Re: simple advice needed on VAX upgrade8 Message-ID: <c79pb.1665$fg4.11687@news20.bellglobal.com>   oops <g>0L "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" <helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de>/ wrote in message news:bo35ji$j80$1@online.de... F > In article <aI7pb.354$Pg1.7473@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Chris Moore" > <just@my.twocents> writes: >oJ > > and all should be fine.  7.1 ==> 7.3 is a single-step upgrade iirc, so at& > > least you only have to do it once. > C > I mentioned I was using my 7.1 doc CD, but am upgrading from 7.2.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:38:13 +0100h* From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>: Subject: Re: Speaking of Cincom (Was Re: World Wide Wake])0 Message-ID: <3FA4D085.3385045B@sture.homeip.net>   norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:   ( Aaargh, you had an attack of HTML there!  , >This is a multipart message in MIME format.# >--=_alternative 0000BB1185256DD2_=i/ >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"f, >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable     > ) > Funny you should mention them, Paul....- > E > From:        "Cincom Systems" <owner-pr_english@lm01.cincom.com> one > 10/30/2003 01:47 PMv > F > Subject:        Cincom's 2003 Fiscal ROIC Performance Breaks 35-Year > Record > = > Cincom's 2003 Fiscal ROIC Performance Breaks 35-Year Record1 > D >     Cincom's  ROIC of 106.8 percent was five times better than itsG >  previous record-breaking 2002 performance. No other software companyk- >                            even came close.o > @ > CINCINNATI, Ohio - October 29, 2003 - Cincom announced today aE > record-breaking 106.8% Return On Invested Capital (ROIC) for fiscale > year 2003. > G > ROIC cuts past the glamour of both profit and ROI figures to paint anyC > unvarnished picture of how well the company is run. It is the raweB > measure of profits generated relative to the capital employed to > generate that profit.r > A >    * Cincom's 106.8% ROIC is 2.6 times greater than that of theiE >      industry-standard bearer Oracle (ORCL), whose numbers for theo# >      same period were just 40.8%.  > B > Cincom achieved this remarkable feat despite the challenging andE > turbulent economic climate. The tumultuous technology sector of theNF > economy in the last couple of years had most technology vendors justG > trying to "survive."  Cincom not only survived, but thrived: calendarm< > 2001 and 2002 were its best two years in a row, ever (see: > www.cincom.com/pr/financial).s > B > Cincom's CEO Tom Nies attributes the ongoing success to Cincom'sH > "high-value, low-cost, and rapid ROI" offerings. "In the 'irrationally@ > exuberant' economy of the last several years, few seemed to beH > concerned about long-delayed and minimized ROI, immense implementationH > costs, and long development cycles where lots could go wrong - and too? > often did. Customers are returning to more rational and sound D > decision-making processes that focus much more on cost, value, and > rapid ROI," says Nies. > G > He continues, "We will continue to follow Cincom's golden rule: 'Help F > our customers grow their businesses faster and more profitably, withC > far less upfront investment, much less risk, and much greater andl< > quicker ROI.' Simple rule. It's worked well for 35 years." > H > Cincom's operating success is also a testimony to the effectiveness ofH > CEO Tom Nies' approach to fiscal management that has, over the last 35C > years, steered Cincom to its present status as one of the leadinguE > software companies, now ranked in the top 5 percent of all software.H > companies in the world.  Among these larger software firms, during theD > fiscal years 2001-2002, Cincom led the industry in both ROI and in! > earnings-per-share improvement.K >  > About CincomG > Cincom, the world's most experienced software company, builds, sells,nF > and supports software for 1) data access and integration, 2) processB > automation, 3) manufacturing business solutions, and 4) businessE > communications. Thousands of major clients around the world rely on7D > Cincom's 35 years of experience to provide innovative solutions toB > some of their toughest and most complex business problems.  HighA > quality, rapid implementation and excellent service give Cincom$E > clients greater productivity, faster speed-to-market, and a quickerr > Return on Investment (ROI).7 > H > For more information about Cincom products and services, contact us atB > 1-800-2CINCOM (US), send e-mail to info@cincom.com, or visit the& > company's website at www.cincom.com. >  > Media Contacts:a > Steve Kayser > Cincom Systems, Inc. > 513-612-2348 > skayser@cincom.com > 
 > Donna Hedgel > Cincom Systems, Inc. > 513-612-2305 > dhedge@cincom.com  >   G Very interesting. Thanks for that. I had assumed that they had probably G gone the way of many others and got bought out somewhere along the way.h      G > From:        Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net> on 11/01/2003 02:28  > AM > 8 > Please respond to Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net> > " > To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > cc:v > & > Subject:        Re: World Wide Wake] >  > Bill Todd wrote:A >  A variant of Cincom's TOTAL (no shame there - DEC's first DBMS-E > > was a reworked version of Cullinane's IDMS), it was only somewhataC > > heavier-weight than RMS but provided real database capabilitiesu
 > without the F > > overhead of other hierarchical or network DBMSs of the time (or of > theirp > > relational successors).a > >,C > > If Cincom still sells TOTAL it would presumably be a reasonablet > migrationrA > > alternative from IMAGE.  There are certainly cases in which af > relational > > database would not be. > E > Holy mackerel Batman! I was just talking about TOTAL to a colleagued > whenE > we were in "reminicences mode" a couple of days ago. Way back when,o > theiG > company I worked for bought TOTAL, coupled with SHADOW (a lightwieghte< > form of CICS), when IBM were trying to push DL/1 and CICS. > H > One of the best IT courses I ever attended was the TOTAL one, given by > as; > Cincom guy. Sod PowerPoint, those were the days when trueg > professionalssD > did it with carefully prepared flipcharts, notes and handouts, and > couldo3 > answer any technical question you cared to throw.i > E > And were prepared to admit that they didn't know the answer to some E > questions, but rather than ignoring you, would be on the phone that," > evening to HQ to find an answer. > B > Mind you, the DEC lady who ran an RSX course I attended about 18 > monthsH > later came an extremely close second. Same deal really, both lecturers) > beat IBM's best of the time hands down.  >  > -- > Paul Sture   -- o   -- u
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 06:17:56 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>uY Subject: SUMMARY: VAX Emulator licensing was( Next VAX/VMS Mig Newsletter on         emult9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEBFIGAA.tom@kednos.com>   E Well, I have now read the license and there is no specific mention ofdC CHARON-VAX only "Intel Emulation Environment"  which is, of course,0G broad enough to cover AMD as well.  I only read the license for WindowsuD and Linux as identified by the part number, but there is no specific/ mention of Windows and Linux in that Agreement.e  / 1.  You must have a valid VAX Open VMS license.s4 2.  You must purchase an "OpenVMS Extension License"D 3.  You must purchase an "OpenVMS Layered Product Extension License"  H Included in the "HP Layered Product Extension License" are the following	 products:]  J ACMS, ALL-IN-1, HP Ada, HP BASIC, HP C, CMS, COBOL, DCE, DCPS, DECmigrate,C DECram, DECwrite, DFS, DQS, DTM, DTR, DECnet-Plus, DECnet Phase IV,dH DECwindows Motif, FMS, Forms, Fortran, GKS, LSE, MACRO-64, MAILbus, MMS,I Notes, Pascal, PCA, PHIGS, RMS Journaling, RTR, SLS, SQL, TCP/IP ServicesyH for OpenVMS, VAXcluster, OpenVMS Clusters, Volume Shadowing for OpenVMS, X.25, X.500.  A This list of products excludes any products that have third-partye> obligations that prohibit inclusion in this extension license.    F Each license is $500 for OpenVMS Alpha and $1000 for Windows and LinuxB See http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/sri-charon-vax-emulator.html  I Then you must purchase a CHARON_VAX license or use some other emulator ase Didier has listed.a    And then Bob has a new nephew:-)       >-----Original Message----- 2 >From: Paul Sture [mailto:nospam@sture.homeip.net]+ >Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 10:28 PMy >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComH >Subject: Re: VAX Emulator licensing was( Next VAX/VMS Mig Newsletter on >emulation: call for papers) >  >  >Tom Linden wrote: >>I >> I was curious to follow the discussion on VAX emulation so I posed thet >> questionoJ >> to HP and I received permission to post the answer here.  Teh result is
 >> twofold8 >> 1  You can only get a transfer license for CHARON-VAXJ >> 2  You can only run this license on an HP produced computer, you can't,E >>    for eaxmple, run it on a Dell that you might have lying around.i >> >iD >Well, I can understand them not supporting non-HP hardware - vendor >specific drives and all that. >gD >But on point 1, the corollary is that if I find a piece of softwareD >which was never ported to Alpha (for whatever reason), but suits myG >business needs, I would need to find a second hand fully licensed VAX,3H >do the necessary license transfer, and then do it again for CHARON-VAX. > ? >Just a theoretical situation of course, but am I right in thats >assumption? >D >> >-----Original Message-----7 >> >From: St Laurent, Pat [mailto:pat.stlaurent@hp.com]0, >> >Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:43 AM >> >To: Tom Linden; SWLICENSINGp >> >Cc: Vazquez, MaryJane3 >> >Subject: RE: VAX emulators >> > >> > >> >Hi Tom,0 >> >F >> >Correct, HP OpenVMS does not license VAX-VMS OS software to run onC >> >systems other than HP's.   Regarding emulators, we partner withd? >> >SRI to deliver a VAX emulator, and we only offer a transferd >> >license for CHARON-VAX.eC >> >There are no plans today to offer transfer licenses for anotherf
 >emulator. >> > >> >Regards, >> >Pat St.Laurent >> > >> >-----Original Message-----, >> >From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.com]+ >> >Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 12:43 PMr$ >> >To: SWLICENSING; St Laurent, Pat >> >Cc: Vazquez, MaryJaned >> >Subject: RE: VAX emulators >> > >> >Hi Pat,d >> >C >> >Thanks for your reply.  Just a couple of clarifications please.i >> >; >> >Does this mean that we could not get such a license for  >CHARON-VAX running- >> >on, say, a Dell computer?/ >> >D >> >Is it possible to obtain a transfer license for other emulators? >> >I >> >The reason I ask is that we have several large PL/I customers runningdL >> >on VAXes who have clearly indicated that they will not port to Alpha andI >> >have no intention of doing so to Itanium if there is no PL/I compileriK >> >availale there.  And this gives us the opportunity to retain a customerv >> >to our mutual benefit. >> > >> >regards  >> >Toma >> > >> >>-----Original Message-----c8 >> >>From: St Laurent, Pat [mailto:pat.stlaurent@hp.com]+ >> >>Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 8:38 AMs$ >> >>To: SWLICENSING; tom@kednos.com >> >>Cc: Vazquez, MaryJane >> >>Subject: RE: VAX emulators  >> >>, >> >>1 >> >>Hi Tom, >> >> B >> >>The transfer licenses referenced on the website are valid forB >> >>OpenVMS/VAX and associated layered software on the CHARON-VAX@ >> >>emulator environment and HP hardware only.  Thus these partF >> >>numbers are not valid for VAX emulators offered by other vendors. >> >>i
 >> >>Regards,C >> >>Pat St.Laurent  >> >>e >> >> >-----Original Message------ >> >From: Didier Morandi [mailto:no@spam.com] - >> >Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 9:20 AMu >> >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComaF >> >Subject: Next VAX/VMS Mig Newsletter on emulation: call for papers >> > >> >C >> >As I said a few days ago, the next VAX/VMS to Itanium Migrationt >> >News letter willJ >> >focus on: "Emulation as a solution to the VAX/VMS obsolescence issue". >> >A >> >As of today, I have the following list of suppliers and theire >> >products dealing4 >> >with emulation and/or sources/image translation: >> > >> >SRI CHARON-VAX# >> >Accelr8 OpenDCL and translators  >> >Bob Supnik SIMH  >> >Forest Edge eVAX6 >> >HP MSVA aka DECmigrate aka VEST (for VAX to Alpha)5 >> >HP MSAI (for Alpha to Itanium) (not yet released)- >> >C >> >Other vendors/suppliers are welcome. Please include data sheets< >> >and references. & >> >and send to didier.morandi@free.fr >> >Thanks,D >> > >> >D. >> >--? >> >          Read the latest VAX/VMS to Itanium Migration NewsaC >> >       English: www.didiermorandi.com/vaxvms2itanium_200310.pdfaD >> >       French: www.didiermorandi.com/vaxvms2itanium_200310fr.pdf >> >J >> >didier morandi  ~ sarl au capital de 8 000 euros ~  Revendeur agr HPG >> >     Expertise en environnement DIGITAL ~ Formation ~ ProgrammationmH >> >   5 avenue Albert Durand 31700 Blagnac France Tl: 33(0)5 6131 6287H >> >   SIRET 448 694 851 00016 RCS Toulouse http://www.didiermorandi.com >> > >> >---m* >> >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.> >> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).E >> >Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/2003i >> > >> ---) >> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. = >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). D >> Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/2003 >t >--s >  >--t >Paul Sture  >u >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.y; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).eB >Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/2003 >t ---P& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/2003m   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 18:56:38 +0100w" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>Y Subject: Re: SUMMARY: VAX Emulator licensing was( Next VAX/VMS Mig Newsletter on         .4 Message-ID: <3fa54557$0$10406$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   Tom Linden wrote:e   ../.. " > And then Bob has a new nephew:-)   LOLo   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 10:04:02 +0100d" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>= Subject: Target="_self" (was [survey] Do you use CHARON-VAX?)-4 Message-ID: <3fa4c884$0$10414$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   JF Mezei wrote:o > SACRILGE !!!!!! > O > I am amused by sites that go through hoops anbd loops to make their links viarK > javascript to open a new window with all sorts of features they forget to0 > enable, when . > W > <a href="http.chocolate.com/recipes/killer_cake.html" target="_blank">Killer Cake</a>a >  e > L > will work nicely, more efficiently and on all browsers. And the new windowL > will open with all "gadgets" enables, such as resizing, menus etc. Most ofM > want to use javascript to open new windows fail to enable most of the stuffhP > such as menus, resizing etc. It forces the user to find the exact URL for thatP > window, close the window, open a new one, paste the URL and reload it, so that8 > one can then access to menu options such as print etc.  % Tu as rarement aussi bien parl, JF !e   :-)    D.  " PS: in English "definitely right."  D For those who do not "speak" html, target=anything but "_self" will H force the browser to open a new window (I summarize). This is MANDATORY C when you publish a thumbnails page with 50 pictures. Clicking on a eD picture will download it then display it. Two situations will occur D here. When you get that picture in the same context of the previous G page, you have to click BACK to go to the next picture (assuming there  D is no nav bar) causing the whole thumbnails pictures to be reloaded F again (depending on how your caching is enabled may take hours with a C 56k connection). However, if you use target=dummy or whatever, the  D browser will open a new window and display the picture. Closing the 6 window will reveal the previous one unchanged. See <a @ href="http://didier.morandi.free.fr/cb/ target=new">example</a>.   pls send cash to PayPal :-)-   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 10:23:58 +0100y" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>A Subject: Re: Target="_self" (was [survey] Do you use CHARON-VAX?)14 Message-ID: <3fa4cd2f$0$10421$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   Didier Morandi wrote:l    I > See <a href="http://didier.morandi.free.fr/cb/ target=new">example</a>.a   sh*t, did not make it...4 link is (obviously) http://didier.morandi.free.fr/cb   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:10:26 +0100f* From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>6 Subject: Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question0 Message-ID: <3FA4E622.319F9DD1@sture.homeip.net>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:d > 4 > In article <3FA479E9.6352DE4B@istop.com>, JF Mezei% > <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:  > P > > What do system managers and VMS engineers prefer when it comes to installing > > freeware applications ?i > >aL > > Are there guidelines for when an application should be invoked as a verbQ > > versus a foreign command that takes arguments in DCL style versus application2( > > that takes arguments in unix style ? > H > Considering that DCL only parses the first 4 characters for verbs, youJ > need to be careful that your own verbs don't overwrite DEC verbs.  Thus,D > I don't like verbs for freeware.  Obviously, I don't like the unixJ > interface either.  Best is something like the VMS CLI for ZIP/UNZIP.  As8 > I understand it, it's not a verb but behaves like one. >   @ Way back when, the company I worked for shipped a whole bunch ofF utilities (largely limited to 3 characters - they initially ran on RSXD too). The commands to invoke them were set by group-wide login filesF (you could have more than one version on a system), and it was done byG CLD objects linked with the images, rather than supplying .CLD files to A be added to the command table. This avoided the potential risk of 5 overwriting either VMS or other third party commands.'  E In fact, when ATTACH arrived (V4.0?), we already had a utility calledaD that, and I solved the problem by abbreviating the command for _our_ ATTACH to 2 or 3 letters.    <rest snipped>   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 22:29:09 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>2 Subject: To foreign or verb ? That is the question) Message-ID: <3FA479E9.6352DE4B@istop.com>o  L What do system managers and VMS engineers prefer when it comes to installing freeware applications ?   H Are there guidelines for when an application should be invoked as a verbM versus a foreign command that takes arguments in DCL style versus applicatione$ that takes arguments in unix style ?  L While I am at it, there really needs to be some standard established to makeN it easy to distribute software. To this end, if Digital/HP were to release theJ tool that generates DCX_EXE files, it would be a great thing for VMS whichH would get its own distribution format, in the same vein as APPLE has itsN binhex or stuffit formats, Debian Linux has its own proprietary format etc. Or( is ZIP the official format now for VMS ?    C The way I see it, such standards manual need to deal with 3 levels:   2 -distribution (ege: zip, dcx_exe or whatever else)M -installation (vmsinstal, manual unload into a directory and compile yourselfh or product.)" -use  (verb, foreign command etc).    N The document could be titled "Guide to packaging and distributing applications on VMS"b   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:46:35 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)6 Subject: Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question$ Message-ID: <bo2g9a$s6s$1@online.de>  2 In article <3FA479E9.6352DE4B@istop.com>, JF Mezei$ <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:   N > What do system managers and VMS engineers prefer when it comes to installing > freeware applications ?o > J > Are there guidelines for when an application should be invoked as a verbO > versus a foreign command that takes arguments in DCL style versus application & > that takes arguments in unix style ?  F Considering that DCL only parses the first 4 characters for verbs, youH need to be careful that your own verbs don't overwrite DEC verbs.  Thus,C I don't like verbs for freeware.  Obviously, I don't like the unix tI interface either.  Best is something like the VMS CLI for ZIP/UNZIP.  As D6 I understand it, it's not a verb but behaves like one.  N > While I am at it, there really needs to be some standard established to makeP > it easy to distribute software. To this end, if Digital/HP were to release theL > tool that generates DCX_EXE files, it would be a great thing for VMS whichJ > would get its own distribution format, in the same vein as APPLE has itsP > binhex or stuffit formats, Debian Linux has its own proprietary format etc. Or* > is ZIP the official format now for VMS ?   Yes, this would be nice.  E > The way I see it, such standards manual need to deal with 3 levels:- > 4 > -distribution (ege: zip, dcx_exe or whatever else)   I see no reason not to use ZIP.c  O > -installation (vmsinstal, manual unload into a directory and compile yourselfm > or product.)  D The ZIP file should create a directory on the same level as that in H which the zip file exists (I'm not sure if this is possible; if not, it I should unzip files into the directory where it is located and not create  E a subdirectory).  The zip file, and the directory it creates, should sI have the same name, containing the name of the product and the version.   E The structure of the stuff which is unzipped should be the following:n  F    main directory: command procedures, readme files (with the main one'                    named AAAREADME.TXT)o  K    subdirectories: one each for each combination of .OBJ/.EXE/.SRC (source)dI                    for each architecture (not all must be present if some >                    are not needed)  While the names should be D                    standardised, it shouldn't matter if they aren't.  B    command procs:  COMPILE.COM, LINK.COM, DEFINE.COM, BUILD.COM.  F                    BUILD.COM does everything (i.e. executes the othersC                    in order).  If .OBJ are provided and one has no aI                    compiler, then one could start with LINK.COM (to covertE                    this case is the reason there should be a separatesD                    LINK.COM; BUILD.COM could do some checks and do aH                    compile by default if a) the sources are provided andG                    b) the necessary compilers are present).  DEFINE.COM <                    defines symbols for foreign commands etc.  E                    BUILD.COM should ask whether help files should go  D                    into the main HELP, into another HELP library or F                    create their own HELP library.  Yes, a HELP libraryF                    should be provided, as well as a VMS-style CLI (see5                    ZIP/UNZIP for an example of this).o  H    documentation:  must be provided in BOOKREADER format :-)  Seriously,<                    packages like NEWSRDR are exemplary here.  D I think it is obvious that third-party software (i.e. stuff which isF neither from DEC nor user-written) should go on DISK$SOFT or whatever.F SYS$SYLOGIN (better: a procedure called from SYS$SYLOGIN) must somehowH set up the necessary symbols.  The idea is that it should be possible toF do this automatically: execute the DEFINE.COM in each of the top-levelH directories.  Obviously, each DEFINE.COM needs no editing and determinesF its own location etc.  With the architecture-dependent subdirectories A for the .EXE files, it should be no problem to set up the symbol  - appropriate for the architecture in question.t  $ > -use  (verb, foreign command etc).  
 See above.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 10:18:11 +0100a" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>6 Subject: Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question4 Message-ID: <3fa4cbd4$0$10428$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   JF Mezei wrote:,  P > The document could be titled "Guide to packaging and distributing applications	 > on VMS"r  G Yeah. It exists since ages as a DEC internal use only document used to 0G build kits with spkitbld.com. As all this has been superceded by PCSI, u9 may I suggest to see how PCSI could answer your question?   4 For those who do not *like* building PCSI kits, see ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vmsinstal/H and you'll discover that it *is* a very good and documented replacement E tool for KITINSTAL.COM. I have posted in this forum my self training  ? PCSI_MENU.COM tool. I will release it (and some others) to the   OpenVMS.org community soon.    D.   Charlie? PayPal :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 06:36:54 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>6 Subject: Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question) Message-ID: <3FA4EC23.AC7A3035@istop.com>e   Didier Morandi wrote: ; > may I suggest to see how PCSI could answer your question?s  M Until you can specify multiple directories and devices as target for softwarepJ PRODUCT remains useless to me.  I don't want to have freeware dropped intoL sys$system or other system directories without making a very explicit prompt% to the system manager during install.D  F PRODUCT may be fine for Digital procucts that are coordinated with VMSI engineers so the later will know what to expect to find in the vms$commonT3 structure, but not for other unknown aopplications.    ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:10:29 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)6 Subject: Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question$ Message-ID: <bo2s7l$e0k$5@online.de>  2 In article <3FA4EC23.AC7A3035@istop.com>, JF Mezei$ <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:    > Didier Morandi wrote: = > > may I suggest to see how PCSI could answer your question?d > O > Until you can specify multiple directories and devices as target for softwareeL > PRODUCT remains useless to me.  I don't want to have freeware dropped intoN > sys$system or other system directories without making a very explicit prompt' > to the system manager during install.o > H > PRODUCT may be fine for Digital procucts that are coordinated with VMSK > engineers so the later will know what to expect to find in the vms$commono5 > structure, but not for other unknown aopplications.g  E I couldn't agree more.  Non-DEC software should not be on the system t@ disk.  Personally, I have DISK$SOFT and a subdirectory for each H application.  Since, in contrast to DEC software, sources etc are often F provided, these might in turn have their own subdirectories.  I would @ also prefer to have the PRODUCT database only include DEC stuff.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Nov 2003 07:23:59 -0600z- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)m6 Subject: Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question3 Message-ID: <KwtjmZomHvpp@eisner.encompasserve.org>   w In article <bo2g9a$s6s$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:c4 > In article <3FA479E9.6352DE4B@istop.com>, JF Mezei& > <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:   O >> While I am at it, there really needs to be some standard established to make Q >> it easy to distribute software. To this end, if Digital/HP were to release theaM >> tool that generates DCX_EXE files, it would be a great thing for VMS which K >> would get its own distribution format, in the same vein as APPLE has its,Q >> binhex or stuffit formats, Debian Linux has its own proprietary format etc. Or + >> is ZIP the official format now for VMS ?t >  > Yes, this would be nice.  H As I recall, capability of creating such images is part of two different4 DEC pseudo-products maintained by a group in France.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:45:29 -0600 5 From: "Martin P.J. Zinser" <zinser@zinser.no-ip.info>-6 Subject: Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question: Message-ID: <bo38qu$17fk11$1@ID-209632.news.uni-berlin.de>   JF Mezei wrote:AN > What do system managers and VMS engineers prefer when it comes to installing > freeware applications ?h > J > Are there guidelines for when an application should be invoked as a verbO > versus a foreign command that takes arguments in DCL style versus applicationo& > that takes arguments in unix style ? > N > While I am at it, there really needs to be some standard established to makeP > it easy to distribute software. To this end, if Digital/HP were to release theL > tool that generates DCX_EXE files, it would be a great thing for VMS whichJ > would get its own distribution format, in the same vein as APPLE has itsP > binhex or stuffit formats, Debian Linux has its own proprietary format etc. Or* > is ZIP the official format now for VMS ? >  > E > The way I see it, such standards manual need to deal with 3 levels:m > 4 > -distribution (ege: zip, dcx_exe or whatever else)O > -installation (vmsinstal, manual unload into a directory and compile yourselft > or product.)$ > -use  (verb, foreign command etc). >  > P > The document could be titled "Guide to packaging and distributing applications	 > on VMS"    Hi,e  H as someone who both actively maintains and uses freeware software, here  are my 0.02 USDX  G - Distribution: ZIP, it does all we really need plus allows me to move eB sources seamlessly between VMS and various Unix systems (which is I important, since you do want to feed the changes back to the main source  . tree, or the porting effort is kind of wasted)E - Installation: Both VMSINSTAL and PCSI have one major disadvantage. iB They do require elevated privs to work. Since many of the smaller H Freeware tools can and should be user space installable they do not fit D the bill. As for Installation places I vote for a VMS equivalent of F /usr/local on Unix. All hp would need to do is provide a logical name G thant could be used in the build/installation procedures!!! The actual 3G directory it points to could/should be empty as delivered by hp. Going  H from there and using the features of logical names (several equivalence F names) it would be very easy to implement what ever structure you likeF locally. (Including moving everything from the system disk, which I do prefer too)FG - I prefer foreign commands, since a.) Most programs do not have a VMS -E CLI anyhow, b.) Using a CLD bloats the definition process c.) If you rF want to put it in DCLTABLES (which avoids problem b) you do need again privs.  G Most important at all I want to point out that a number of people here rC complain loudly about things like missing VMS CLIs und such. Well, tH welcome to the world of Open Source. If you feel it is important enough G for you, feel free to add it and submit your changes to the respective  A project. I personally find that I am busy enough keeping up with vH functionality and new versions and do not have the time to work on this I (plus I rather only keep one set of qualifiers in mind for both Unix and e VMS).o   Greetings, Martini   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 18:02:44 GMTe" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG6 Subject: Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question0 Message-ID: <00A284CA.1459250F@SendSpamHere.ORG>  r In article <bo38qu$17fk11$1@ID-209632.news.uni-berlin.de>, "Martin P.J. Zinser" <zinser@zinser.no-ip.info> writes: {...snip...}H >- I prefer foreign commands, since a.) Most programs do not have a VMS F >CLI anyhow, b.) Using a CLD bloats the definition process c.) If you G >want to put it in DCLTABLES (which avoids problem b) you do need againt >privs.   E DCL command syntax parsing does not require entries in DCLTABLES.  It F is far easier to use the CLI$DCL_PARSE call and tables linked into theF image.  Done this way, a foreign command can invoke the program and itF can then treat the command line like a DCL command string with qualif-2 iers, parameters, keywords, alternate syntax, etc.    -- "L VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM            p5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" .   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:56:58 -0500# From: "Nobody" <nowhere@nobody.com>eY Subject: Veritas VMS client requested restores - solution found to dramatically  improve l/ Message-ID: <vqadqbf25tuc6f@corp.supernews.com>b  J Working on the premise that the issue is not the networks but inter-system< buffer sizing, I ran an experiment on one of our test nodes.   The test involved:  J - adjusting the file sys$sysdevice:[openv.netbackup]net_buffer_sz.; to its out-of-the box setting (32768)  ( - attempting a restore of a 18G save-set  = - reviewing the restore log file for the listed transfer rate   D Results of the test show that we went up in speed from an average ofL 19Kbytes/sec with a 1.5 day elapsed time to 11Mbytes/sec and elapsed time of" 22 minutes to restore 17G of data.   Seeing this, I:e  !  - created a template file calledfI sys$sysdevice:[openv.netbackup]net_buffer_sz.restore with the 32768 valuem    - created a template file calledI sys$sysdevice:[openv.netbackup]net_buffer_sz.backup with the 131072 valuem  K - modified the generic restore script to "flip" the net_buffer_sz.; file toxJ its special  restore value and then "flip" it to the standard backup value when successfully completed.  I - modified the generic restore script to "flip" it to the standard backup@> value if an error is detected and the restore operation abends  I The restored data was verified for integrity and it it passed with flyingc colors.   E If you have any questions or concerns about this, please let me know.o  
 Thank you,  
 Andrew Robertb   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:04:00 -0500& From: "Chris Moore" <just@my.twocents> Subject: Re: VUP?e: Message-ID: <WWPob.12397$Tf.1346413@news20.bellglobal.com>   1 VUP = VAX 11/780 11/750 was 0.6, as I recall.  L I think Executive Software still delivers a command procedure with Diskeeper9 called CALCULATE_VUPS.com. Just does a math loop I think:   
 VAX 4105A:         $ @calculate_vupstJ            The System VUPs Rating is now being calculated for internal use byL            Control Master.  This is not intended to be an exact measurement.  1            Approximate System VUPs Rating :  25.4    VAX 4108: gives 31.0  H  Don't know if it's comparable, but if run on an Alphaserver ES40 6/500:  2            Approximate System VUPs Rating :  633.5    . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKEPNIFAA.tom@kednos.com... 5 > It referred to the throughput of a VAX 780 ca. 1980" >i > >-----Original Message-----i0 > >From: H Vlems [mailto:hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl]- > >Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 12:40 AM/ > >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >Subject: Re: VUP? > >o > >g > >e4 > >"Didier Morandi" <no@spam.com> schreef in bericht1 > >news:3fa32164$0$27028$626a54ce@news.free.fr...o	 > >> VUP?  > >> > >> VAX Unit Performance  > >> orc; > >> VAX Units of Processing (*never* heard of this one...)a > >> > >> D.a > >>& > >VUPS: Vax Unit of Processor Speed ? > >g >a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:23:01 -0500) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  Subject: Re: VUP?,9 Message-ID: <pdQob.6146$Nm6.452904@news20.bellglobal.com>l  / "Didier Morandi" <no@spam.com> wrote in message . news:3fa32164$0$27028$626a54ce@news.free.fr... > VUP? >b > VAX Unit Performance > or8 > VAX Units of Processing (*never* heard of this one...) >O > D. >e VUP = VAX Unit Performance.5  F Digital's first VAX was the VAX-11/780 and this became the engineeringN reference for the rest of the VAX product line with a rating of 1.0 (IIRC, theL VAX-11/750 had a rating of 0.6 while the VAX-11/730 had a rating of 0.3). ItN should be pointed out that this benchmark was a combination of real-world workL which includes a combination of "CPU load" and "I/O" which may be a bit more  realistic than the SpecINTs etc.  H When the Alpha came out Digital switched to a new internal metric calledN Perf's (performance?). As sales people always do, they went back and generatedK new Perf metrics for all the older VAX's in order to compare them to AlphasaM (now the VAX-11/780 has a Perf rating of 8.0). The various charts for VAX andh Alpha can be found here.? http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_tps.htmloF I wonder when we'll see Perf metrics for the various Itanium machines? :-)e  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,t Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/rC http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/alpha_diary.html#vax_vs_alphao   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:24:06 -0500s* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> Subject: Re: VUP?f) Message-ID: <3FA3EC35.FC58A10B@istop.com>s   H Vlems wrote:% > VUPS: Vax Unit of Processor Speed ?a    M Since the VUP was used as a MIPS style of measure, I would venture that the PgK was for performance.  Model XX had 31 VUPS means that it performed 30 timesi faster than a 780.  L And the S is simply the plurial of VUP in my opinion. The 780 had 1 VUP, the 9000 had 2 VUPS.* (or whatever the 9000's rating truly was).   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:24:24 -0500 (EST)+ From: Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu>> Subject: Re: VUP?IH Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58-035.0311011322550.3601@unix44.andrew.cmu.edu>  / VUPS == Virtually Useless Performance StatisticT   :)  H more seriously, it was supposed to be a ratio of the power of an 11/780.B the mix of workloads in the benchmark were different from the MIPS. benchmark, which was also based on the 11/780.   isildurd    ) On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Didier Morandi wrote:t   > VUP? >  > VAX Unit Performance > or8 > VAX Units of Processing (*never* heard of this one...) >a > D. >r >o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 07:31:32 -0500" From: "Hal Kuff" <kuff@tessco.com>F Subject: Re: what happens when a member of a shadow set is dismounted?- Message-ID: <bo2tes$86e@library2.airnews.net>"  L     Absent open files it would be in theory clean...... book says not a goodK way to image a disk.....  open files would not be a problem, the disk wouldwE drop without error... you would just have an inconsistent disk and anu inconsistent bit map....  L "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" <helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de>/ wrote in message news:bo2scc$e0k$6@online.de...uI > If I dismount one member of a shadow set, how "clean" is that snapshot?cJ > I'm not worried about it being out of date (it obviously is, if activityG > continues on the other members of the shadow set), just worried aboutn5 > open files being cleanly closed ON THAT MEMBER etc.f >    ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:13:00 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)B Subject: what happens when a member of a shadow set is dismounted?$ Message-ID: <bo2scc$e0k$6@online.de>  G If I dismount one member of a shadow set, how "clean" is that snapshot? I I'm not worried about it being out of date (it obviously is, if activity sF continues on the other members of the shadow set), just worried about 3 open files being cleanly closed ON THAT MEMBER etc.w   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Nov 2003 06:26:09 -0600l+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) F Subject: Re: what happens when a member of a shadow set is dismounted?3 Message-ID: <m6FFgjdPmXHp@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  w In article <bo2scc$e0k$6@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:nI > If I dismount one member of a shadow set, how "clean" is that snapshot?rK > I'm not worried about it being out of date (it obviously is, if activity aH > continues on the other members of the shadow set), just worried about 5 > open files being cleanly closed ON THAT MEMBER etc.D >   e http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Z2Ok%24tbKVIgX%40eisner.encompasserve.org&oe=UTF-8&output=gplains  + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)o Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsR( Subject: Re: Disk cache with shadow sets  Date: 31 Mar 2003 15:31:37 -0600  = In article <764ccbac.0303311219.63cd5ad4@posting.google.com>,s= JNCHAMBL@TEXASCHILDRENSHOSPITAL.ORG (Jesse Chambless) writes: G > We are running VMS V7.2-2 and volume shadowing ( 2 member sets ).  WelG > write inhibit the application, and break the secondary member out forp	 > backup.wG > My question is, when in this process is the disk cache flushed to thea > member we are breaking out?  >   8 	When the application(s) finishes flushing those writes.  < http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/5423/5423pro_011.html  ) Follow these steps to remove the member: S  N 1. Establish data consistency over the virtual units through system managementO procedures or application software, or both. This is a complex topic and is thep- subject of most of the rest of this chapter. c  N 2. Ensure that the requirements regarding merge state and adequate redundancy 	 are met. I  > 3. Remove the members to be backed up from the virtual units.   < 4. Terminate the data consistency measures taken in step 1.    [snip]     7.12.3 Application Activity   L To achieve data consistency, application activity should be suspended and noF operations should be in progress. Operations in progress can result inI inconsistencies in the backed-up application data. While many interactive L applications tend to become quiet if there is no user activity, the reliableJ suspension of application activity requires cooperation in the applicationD itself. Journaling and transaction techniques can be used to addressN in-progress inconsistencies but must be used with extreme care. In addition toM specific applications, miscellaneous interactive use of the system that mighta8 affect the data to be backed up must also be suspended.    [snip]   7.12.4.3 Index Updates  M The update of a single record in an indexed file may result in multiple indexJH updates. Any of these updates can be cached at the application's option.E Splitting a shadow set with an incomplete index update will result in>L inconsistencies between the indexes and data records. If deferred writes areN disabled, RMS orders writes so that an incomplete index update may result in aL missing update but never in a corrupt index. However, if deferred writes areH enabled, the order in which index updates are written is unpredictable.    [snip]   7.12.4.5 $FLUSHd  J Applications can use the $FLUSH service to guarantee data consistency. TheG $FLUSH service guarantees that all updates completed by the application:M (including end of file for sequential files) have been recorded on the disk. a    F 	When "set write inihibit" ("set read only" - SRO) in DSM, it takes 1 D 	minute to ensure all writes are posted (found that somewhere, long F 	since gone).  I believe that is how it posts the BIJ, on limit (i.e. H 	so many IOs, it will post) and at worst time (post BIJ writes at least  	every 60 seconds).d  = 	I'm not sure what Cache does.  One could surmise it too will = 	guarantee writes hit the DBs inside of 1 minute.  After all,h 	Cache is just M, right?  F > Since the secondary member will not dismount until all IO operations: > are complete, does the cache represent an incomplete IO?  $ 	The issue is "writes in progress".   M "To achieve data consistency, application activity should be suspended and notF operations should be in progress. Operations in progress can result in4 inconsistencies in the backed-up application data. "  I  	Hence, the instructions on how to create a "crash consistent" copy and t) 	how applications have to cooperate, etc.a   				Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 23:40:39 +0800w, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>F Subject: Re: what happens when a member of a shadow set is dismounted?- Message-ID: <87llqyg4nc.fsf@prep.synonet.com>-  R helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:  ? > If I dismount one member of a shadow set, how "clean" is that>E > snapshot?  I'm not worried about it being out of date (it obviously>D > is, if activity continues on the other members of the shadow set),C > just worried about open files being cleanly closed ON THAT MEMBERn > etc.  > It is not, there is no interlock/sync up to the file system or? aplication to trigger flushes and closes. Pity, this would be ai1 far better use of resources than a pig in a poke.>     --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:20:39 +0100i* From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>< Subject: Re: [OT] US located ISP usable from  over the pond?0 Message-ID: <3FA4E887.73858B37@sture.homeip.net>   Didier Morandi wrote:n > J > This poor quality link between Europe and the rest of the Internet world# > is starting to drive me nutsy :-)  > G > Is there a way to have his personal pages on an US ISP company server5E > (for example, or Canada, or Japan) when living outside the USA? I'meI > really thinking to transfer all my business related sites over the pond> > (but which one?).- >  > Thanks for your advices, >   F It's OK here and I can usually download at full rated speed, depending on the site concerned.  F But yes, I'll send you the address of someone you know who does have a! .ch address hosted in the States.n   -- 3
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 11:55:47 +0100u* From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>< Subject: Re: [OT] US located ISP usable from  over the pond?0 Message-ID: <3FA4F0C3.279DA3D3@sture.homeip.net>   Didier Morandi wrote:t > J > This poor quality link between Europe and the rest of the Internet world# > is starting to drive me nutsy :-)6 > G > Is there a way to have his personal pages on an US ISP company server-E > (for example, or Canada, or Japan) when living outside the USA? I'mrI > really thinking to transfer all my business related sites over the pondV > (but which one?).  >  > Thanks for your advices, > A Well, I tried replying privately, but was stopped by Spam Arrest.n  G They gave me a url to click on, with the result that it told me that my-C attempt had failed. No idea why that is, unless it's because I haveo Javascript disabled.  D Anyway, the guy to ask is your former Australian colleague here. You know his address :-)   -- e
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 10:30:40 +0100h" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>8 Subject: [OT] US located ISP usable from  over the pond?4 Message-ID: <3fa4cec1$0$10426$626a54ce@news.free.fr>  I This poor quality link between Europe and the rest of the Internet world k! is starting to drive me nutsy :-)y  F Is there a way to have his personal pages on an US ISP company server D (for example, or Canada, or Japan) when living outside the USA? I'm H really thinking to transfer all my business related sites over the pond  (but which one?).s   Thanks for your advices,   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 14:33:59 -0500t* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>, Subject: Re: [survey] Do you use CHARON-VAX?) Message-ID: <3FA40A9E.C622CC05@istop.com>    Michael Unger wrote:> > See <http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/index.htm> for theG > documentation including SPDs. ("VAX Emulators" on the left-hand side)w > L > CAUTION: JavaScript has to be enabled for the navigation to work properly!   SACRILGE !!!!!!  M I am amused by sites that go through hoops anbd loops to make their links viahI javascript to open a new window with all sorts of features they forget toe
 enable, when t  U <a href="http.chocolate.com/recipes/killer_cake.html" target="_blank">Killer Cake</a>i  r  J will work nicely, more efficiently and on all browsers. And the new windowJ will open with all "gadgets" enables, such as resizing, menus etc. Most ofK want to use javascript to open new windows fail to enable most of the stuff N such as menus, resizing etc. It forces the user to find the exact URL for thatN window, close the window, open a new one, paste the URL and reload it, so that6 one can then access to menu options such as print etc.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.608 ************************