1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 05 Nov 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 613       Contents: Re: bigtime for intel... Re: cluster load balancing. Re: Daylight to Standard Time Change via Batch. Re: Daylight to Standard Time Change via Batch. Re: Daylight to Standard Time Change via Batch: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more?: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more?: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more?: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more?: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more?: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more?: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more?: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more?: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more?: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more?: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more?: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more?: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? Erp running on Vms ? Re: Erp running on Vms ? Re: Fortran calling sequence Re: Fortran calling sequence Re: Full Duplex NIC cards  Re: Full Duplex NIC cards  Help W/NAS proposal... Re: Help W/NAS proposal... Re: Help W/NAS proposal...! Re: newbie problem installing VMS ! Re: newbie problem installing VMS & Re: Oh, where, oh where is JF Mezei???& Re: OpenVMS i64 missing in HP WEB page& Re: OpenVMS i64 missing in HP WEB page Re: OpenVMS, Itanium and Parts Re: OpenVMS, Itanium and Parts! Re: OT: an example of a modern OS , Piping X-Windows traffic over ssh on OpenVMS0 Re: Piping X-Windows traffic over ssh on OpenVMS- Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question - Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question - Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question - Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question  Re: TS10, still around?  RE: TS10, still around?  Re: TS10, still around?  RE: TS10, still around? " Update of 2 Phase SMTP Alternative* Re: VMS in pole position in an HP WEB page$ Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again$ Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again$ Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again$ Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again$ Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again$ Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again$ Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again5 Re: X file selection dialog: display file name only ?  Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?  Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?  Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?  Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?  Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?  Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?  Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:47:46 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>! Subject: Re: bigtime for intel... ) Message-ID: <3FA7F451.251EF4E7@istop.com>    mist dragon wrote: > + > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12479  > 9 > Cant wait for the equivalent big news for other os's...     J Yeah, but consider that this sale of 4 IA64 cpus will allow Intel to claim= over 50% growth in sales of that chip :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:47:53 -05000 From: "Jeff Morgan" <vmswiz@geonospamcities.com># Subject: Re: cluster load balancing - Message-ID: <bo96qh$42gv$1@news3.infoave.net>   L Unfortunately, recent Microsoft Clients, aka WinNT-Win2K-WinXP cache DNS for 24 hours by default.  H If one server goes down, the client isn't smart enough to go ask the DNS  server for the IP address again.  4 Control-alt-delete seems to help this caching issue.   ; - )   K You can set the cache timeout on the client to 1 second, or you can disable E "negative dns caching", but do you really want a non-standard Windows A configuration? Or a thousand non-standard Windows configurations?   " Here's a good writeup of the issue? http://cable-dsl.home.att.net/dns_cache.htm and some solutions.   E If anyone knows a way around this without using a RAD server or other B front-end IP load balancing hardware solution, please let us know!  0                                             *JM*   > 3) Real load-balancing.  > J >    Metric server and load-broker used to dynamically update a DNS server withG >    addresses of least loased cluster members. This is very similar to F >    round-robin except that the list of addresses associated with the cluster J >    name (which can be multiple or just a single address according to how it has( >    been setup) is dynamically updated. > K >    By updating the address entries the load-broker and metric servers can K >    provide real load-balancing and can also exlude systems which are down  fromL >    the list of available addresses. Hence both load-balancing and failover >    are provided. > L >    The DNS server needs to allow dynamic updates - which means it needs to beH >    relatively modern. Like round-robin there is no cluster IP address.# >    Clients connect to a DNS name.  >  >  > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:22:03 -0800 , From: Ken Fairfield <My.Full.Name@intel.com>7 Subject: Re: Daylight to Standard Time Change via Batch + Message-ID: <bo959s$pqm$1@news01.intel.com>    JF Mezei wrote:     N > However, if timestamp information is important enough that setting the clockI > back instantly is not acceptable since for one hour, timestamp would be N > "strange", would the same environments tolerate that transactions would haveQ > the wrong time for a duration of 4 hours while the clock slowly loses an hour ?   9 	Similar to what John Brandon said, our constraint is for A "monotonically increasing time", not that that the system time be = in sync with the rest of the world.  The time stamps are used > (presumably as indices) in a Codasyl(sp?) database, and either9 duplicate time stamps, or time stamps that don't increase  monotonically, are at issue.  N > Also, when slowing the clock down for 4 hours to lose one hour, what happensL > to the logical that point to GMT offset ? Is it update at the start of theJ > process, at the end of the process, or do you continually update it withL > approximations of the changing offset as your clock slowly loses an hour ?  = 	We basically don't care about the logical names _during_ the C time slew.  One or two get reset when UTC$CONFIGURE_TDF.EXE us run. 5 The remainder are reset when DTSS$STARTUP.COM is run.   9 	To be complete, and similar to what John and others have > written, we (1) shutdown DTSS on the Clerk nodes prior to 2AM;B (2) we slew the clock for 4 hours wall-clock time, slower in fall,A faster in spring, (3) usually midway through the slew, we execute A UTC$CONFIGURE_TDF.COM to reset the TDF on all systems, but not to > reset the clock, and (4) after the slew is complete and sanity' checks have been made, we restart DTSS.   : 	One point I think needs to be made: the various SYS$TIME*@ logicals are DEFINED FOR HUMAN CONVENIENCE ONLY, at least as far? as I have been able to determine (although SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE is C referenced during DTSS$UTC_STARTUP.COM to see whether an early exit C can be taken...).  Things like the various $[ASC|GET|BIN]UTC system B service routines, as well as the CRTL, use the value in EXE$QG_TDFA and/or external timezone rule files.  It may be that a particular = TCP/IP stack _also_ defines and/or reads one or more timezone ? logical, but that has very little to do with how the VMS system D clock is set (well, I suppose if you're using NTP _and_ the IP stack  reads one of these logicals...).   	-Ken  --  6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! D1C Automation VMS System Support " who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:17:16 GMT + From: Rob Brown <mylastname@nospamgmcl.com> 7 Subject: Re: Daylight to Standard Time Change via Batch L Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0311041606590.18108-100000@localhost.localdomain>   > Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > C >> In concert with the OpenVMS Engineer that is maintaining the TDF E >> command procedures, I've tried to document how to do this stuff in D >> the FAQ, and one of the key pieces listed in the FAQ is a request@ >> to not (directly) invoke the UTC$CONFIGURE_TDF.COM procedure.  9 Can you clarify what you mean by "not (directly) invoke"?   @ SYS$EXAMPLES:DAYLIGHT_SAVINGS.COM invokes UTC$CONFIGURE_TDF.COM.  < Is this an example of a direct, or an "indirect" invocation?  F Since DAYLIGHT_SAVINGS.COM is in SYS$EXAMPLES, I used it as an exampleF to help me create the command file that did what I needed.  My commandF file invokes UTC$CONFIGURE_TDF.COM, just as DAYLIGHT_SAVINGS.COM does.  ' Have I failed to abide by your request?      --     ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:37:27 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) 7 Subject: Re: Daylight to Standard Time Change via Batch 2 Message-ID: <XKWpb.8413$125.1547@news.cpqcorp.net>  z In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0311041606590.18108-100000@localhost.localdomain>, Rob Brown <mylastname@nospamgmcl.com> writes: :> Hoff Hoffman wrote: :>  D :>> In concert with the OpenVMS Engineer that is maintaining the TDFF :>> command procedures, I've tried to document how to do this stuff inE :>> the FAQ, and one of the key pieces listed in the FAQ is a request A :>> to not (directly) invoke the UTC$CONFIGURE_TDF.COM procedure.  : : :Can you clarify what you mean by "not (directly) invoke"? : A :SYS$EXAMPLES:DAYLIGHT_SAVINGS.COM invokes UTC$CONFIGURE_TDF.COM.  : = :Is this an example of a direct, or an "indirect" invocation?   A   Indirect.   Please read the OpenVMS FAQ for details on which of 6   the procedures are expected to be accessed directly.  G :Since DAYLIGHT_SAVINGS.COM is in SYS$EXAMPLES, I used it as an example G :to help me create the command file that did what I needed.  My command G :file invokes UTC$CONFIGURE_TDF.COM, just as DAYLIGHT_SAVINGS.COM does.  : ( :Have I failed to abide by your request?  E   You'll have to track the UTC$CONFIGURE_TDF.COM API.  The underlying C   comment is also a good one, as the DAYLIGHT_SAVINGS.COM procedure G   arguably should not reside within SYS$EXAMPLES: if it uses interfaces A   into other procedures that are themselves potentially volatile.     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:54:49 -0600 ( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon)C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? 1 Message-ID: <03110413544918@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>    Scott Vieth wrote:C >We've got a "procedure" in place where the computer operators shut D >down our main VMS system once a month in the middle of the night toC >backup the system disk.  They boot the Standalone Environment from 3 >another disk and then backup the real system disk.  > D >Does anyone still follow this procedure?  Is there a *need* to shutC >down the system in order to get a good, clean backup of the system C >disk?  Are there files (sysuaf?) that are open while the system is C >running and are difficult to backup unless the box is shutdown and  >booted from another disk?  C We backup the system disk without SABU using the /IGNORE=INTERLOCK     Barry Treahy wrote: D > Anytime you backup an open file, you stand to have a questionable K > backup, especially if the open file happens to be open for write.  Worse  D > yet is if multiple files are open that are coherent and if backup G > managed to have one file backed up mid-transaction in one state, and  K > others in another state because a commit had not occurred, you can again  ) > have corruption between data elements.   > K > That all said, I've never kept applications on the system disk, nor user  K > accounts, and with the exception of doing SA backups for VMS upgrades, I  J > never do them and I've never had a system disk that I could not recover G > and I've been doing this for over twenty years.  Lastly, with todays  H > disk technologies, including RAID, hot spares, etc. we have not had a F > reason to touch a backup tape, except to pull an archived file, for  > many, many years...   I And I think that is the key... keeping applications, user accounts, data, J Pathworks, Advanced Server, Apache, page files, etc., off the system disk!M Most of the files on the system disk would then be installed images and these N are in memory, therefore not affecting backup.  Even the page files are marked$ nobackup so no issue there either...  N Absolutely right, RAID, hot spares, etc. have brought about a reason not to goM back to tape for a restore.  The last time I did a backup restore of a system C disk was to de-frag it and then it was on a VAX and well... anyway!              J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*n  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:19:16 GMT 3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? 2 Message-ID: <E4Spb.8372$yE4.4856@news.cpqcorp.net>  > In article <5a85bce2.0311040801.608c0d86@posting.google.com>, & svieth@wi.rr.com (Scott Vieth) writes:  C >We've got a "procedure" in place where the computer operators shut D >down our main VMS system once a month in the middle of the night to >backup the system disk.  ...   7 An alternative is to make the system disk a shadow set. = Normaly with only one member.  To back it up, add a member to ? the shadow set.  When the shadow copy is complete, choose/force C a "quiet point" on your system and remove the second shadow member. 2 The removed shadow member is now your backup copy.   --  J       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Nov 2003 12:37:01 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? 3 Message-ID: <9fViy+2vjBqQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <5a85bce2.0311040801.608c0d86@posting.google.com>, svieth@wi.rr.com (Scott Vieth) writes: >  > Is there a *need* to shut D > down the system in order to get a good, clean backup of the systemD > disk?  Are there files (sysuaf?) that are open while the system isD > running and are difficult to backup unless the box is shutdown and > booted from another disk?   A    There are technically valid reasons to do this, but of course      _it depends_.  E    I don't do this, but then I do know what's going on on my systems  >    in the middle of the night and that what I might lose in an.    /ignore=interlock is going to be OK for us.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:16:37 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? ( Message-ID: <3FA7FB12.22C343B@istop.com>   Scott Vieth wrote:F >> Does anyone still follow this procedure?  Is there a *need* to shutD > down the system in order to get a good, clean backup of the system > disk?   L This question can cause religious wars akin to TPU vs EDT, Apple vs Windows, Unix vs VMS.  L Doing a backup with standalone is the only absolutely safe way to do it, andG the only way DEC could document an absolutely safe way to do it without  knowing your environment.   N But if you know your environment very well, you could decide that backing up a+ disk would be safe (or could be made safe).   M You have to look at the applications, server processes and interactive users. I What are they likely to be writing during the backup, and it is likely to 3 cause corruption if you were to restore that drive.   M Consider a transaction that writes to 2 separate files, one whone name begins M with A and the other with Z. It is possible that the transation will occur at M a time when the A file has already been backed up, but Z hasn't. As a result, C if you restore that drive, the A file will lack the write from that * transaction while the Z file will have it.  M If you can shutdown or freeze all applications that write to disk, then you'd J be pretty safe. Just make sure that there is no system management activityK (such as adding/deleting usernames) on the system drive while the backup is  happening on that drive.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:29:10 -0500& From: "Chris Moore" <just@my.twocents>C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? 9 Message-ID: <YmYpb.5759$fg4.214890@news20.bellglobal.com>   J As most others have mentioned, standalone is the safest, but generally not$ an available option on most systems.  J The one thing that might be worth your while is doing a separate backup ofK the queue database to a safe spot prior to your on-line image backup of the K disk.  We use a routine that does a CONVERT/SHARE of the files to a support K directory on another disk, from which we could restore if it were necessary > (I think this came from an old DSNlink article circa VAX v5.5)  J That having been said, I have restored a few systems from on-line backups,J and only needed to re-create the queue files once.  Usually just needed to re-populate the batch entries     1 "Scott Vieth" <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in message 7 news:5a85bce2.0311040801.608c0d86@posting.google.com...  > Hi:  > D > We've got a "procedure" in place where the computer operators shutE > down our main VMS system once a month in the middle of the night to D > backup the system disk.  They boot the Standalone Environment from4 > another disk and then backup the real system disk. > E > Does anyone still follow this procedure?  Is there a *need* to shut D > down the system in order to get a good, clean backup of the systemD > disk?  Are there files (sysuaf?) that are open while the system isD > running and are difficult to backup unless the box is shutdown and > booted from another disk?  > F > The system in question is running OpenVMS 7.3-1 and has an EVA under > it for storage.  > F > Should I just skip the "shutdown" and use the EVA to make a snapshot: > of the system disk?  Or just backup the system disk with > "/IGNORE=INTERLOCK"? > 0 > Thanks in advance for helpful tips and tricks. >  > -Scott Vieth :^)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 02:18:42 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? L Message-ID: <rdeininger-0411032119100001@user-105n9rd.dialup.mindspring.com>  = In article <5a85bce2.0311040801.608c0d86@posting.google.com>, % svieth@wi.rr.com (Scott Vieth) wrote:    >Hi: > C >We've got a "procedure" in place where the computer operators shut D >down our main VMS system once a month in the middle of the night toC >backup the system disk.  They boot the Standalone Environment from 3 >another disk and then backup the real system disk.  > D >Does anyone still follow this procedure?  Is there a *need* to shutC >down the system in order to get a good, clean backup of the system C >disk?  Are there files (sysuaf?) that are open while the system is C >running and are difficult to backup unless the box is shutdown and  >booted from another disk? > E >The system in question is running OpenVMS 7.3-1 and has an EVA under  >it for storage. > E >Should I just skip the "shutdown" and use the EVA to make a snapshot 9 >of the system disk?  Or just backup the system disk with  >"/IGNORE=INTERLOCK"?  > / >Thanks in advance for helpful tips and tricks.   H Lots of folks will tell you not to bother with "standalone" backups.  If< you understand the risk, and are willing to accept it, fine.  I /IGNORE=INTERLOCK can easily lead to UNDETECTED, UNREPORTED bad copies of  files in your backup saveset.   C If you use /IGNORE=INTERLOCK, BACKUP can't always tell if a file is 6 changed by another process while BACKUP is reading it.  H Yes, it will usually "work".  But by Murphy's law, the time it will failD completely is when you REALLY, REALLY need a good backup to restore.    A SHOW DEVICE/FILE will show you what's open on a disk (on the node G executing the command).  That's a few hundred files on a typical system G disk.  Do you know which of them are (might be) written by the OS or an I application, and when?  Is it worth your time to figure it out, and track " all the changes as the OS evolves?  F Are there additional files that don't show up in SHOW DEVICE/FILE, but which are actually "open"?  H Do you control your workload and users well enough to know the system isE absolutely "quiet" so you can attempt your on-line backup with a good  chance of success?  J If you really know the system is "quiet", why not shut it all the way downH and do the BACKUP correctly?  There's little additional impact to users.  D How long are you willing to spend fixing the "minor" problems with aG restored disk if they happen (and if you notice them before putting the E disk into production>?  When you restore backups, do you usually have B plenty of spare time, with no pressure to get it done immediately?    G If you want trustworthy backups with minimum downtime and minimum work, G shadow your system disk(s).  Dismount the disk from every node that can J dismount it.  Shut down every node that booted from the disk.  Reboot withJ one less shadow member.  Backup the "idle" shadow member to your medium ofG choice, then add it back into your shadow set.  This only takes as much E time as a reboot -- your system(s) don't need to stay down during the  whole backup/verify job.  E (Dropping a member from an active shadow set leads to an offline disk J which is a perfect snapshot of the VMS volume.  But that doesn't mean thatH all the files are consistent.  This is only marginally better than using" /IGNORE=INTERLOCK on a live disk.)    G If shadowing is too costly (it often is), maintain two system disks "by H hand".  Boot all the nodes off disk A, and mount disk B privately on theJ live system to back it up.  To back up disk A, boot all the nodes off diskI B and mount disk A privately.  Again, reboot times can be very short.  In ? a cluster, with rolling reboots, you can keep many applications  continuously available.     E Any strategy that supports "rolling backups" will pretty much support F "rolling upgrades" as well.  Upgrades may be less of a concern because< they happen less often, but it's basically the same problem.      7 That's all pretty long-winded.  Here's my short answer:   G If you can afford having your system (cluster) unavailable for a while, J you have time to do backups right.  If you can't afford having your systemJ (cluster) unavailable, why in hell would you take shortcuts on your backup	 strategy?      -- Robert    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:40:35 -0600 ( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon)C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? 1 Message-ID: <03110420403559@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   L > As most others have mentioned, standalone is the safest, but generally not& > an available option on most systems.   I agree!  L > The one thing that might be worth your while is doing a separate backup ofM > the queue database to a safe spot prior to your on-line image backup of the M > disk.  We use a routine that does a CONVERT/SHARE of the files to a support M > directory on another disk, from which we could restore if it were necessary @ > (I think this came from an old DSNlink article circa VAX v5.5)  O I assume that you maintain your queue database on the system disk, why not move N it to a non-system disk using the QMAN$MASTER logical to define that location?  L > That having been said, I have restored a few systems from on-line backups,L > and only needed to re-create the queue files once.  Usually just needed to > re-populate the batch entries   6 That would eliminate the re-create as mentioned above.  M My policy - if I can define a logical and subsequently move a file off of the  system disk - I am so there!     J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*n  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 02:54:11 -0000 ! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? / Message-ID: <vqgpij6u2aoe6c@corp.supernews.com>   % Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote: D : We've got a "procedure" in place where the computer operators shutE : down our main VMS system once a month in the middle of the night to D : backup the system disk.  They boot the Standalone Environment from4 : another disk and then backup the real system disk.  * : Does anyone still follow this procedure? ... F : Should I just skip the "shutdown" and use the EVA to make a snapshot: : of the system disk?  Or just backup the system disk with : "/IGNORE=INTERLOCK"?  G I support a set of 365/24/7 transaction processing systems and I _only_ G make system backups after booting to CD.  I never back it up while it's E running with /ignore=interlock since there is a chance thatI will not  have a usable backup.    That would be catastrophic.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:35:56 -0600 ( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon)C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? 1 Message-ID: <03110421355602@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   C > SHOW DEVICE/FILE will show you what's open on a disk (on the node I > executing the command).  That's a few hundred files on a typical system  > disk.   H So I did a SHOW DEVICE /FILE of my system disk... I found the following:   Make that 1,802 files open: 
 *.exe = 1,499 
 *.com =    33 
 *.log =   159 
 *.tlb =    81   4 Leaving 30 files (*.dat, *.out, *.err, *.dmp, .etc.)  O I look at it from this perspective - *.exe are not updated, *.com either, *.log M who cares, *.tlb read only, so 30 files are left - ones I have not analyzed.    M If you properly plan your system disk and off-load what can be off-loaded you K will lessen the risk and potentially increase your performance by doing so.   B > Do you know which of them are (might be) written by the OS or anK > application, and when?  Is it worth your time to figure it out, and track $ > all the changes as the OS evolves?  K What does the OS changes and evolution have to do with it?  I think this is M called reading the "release notes" and understanding the impact that the next I version of OS involves.  I think this needs to be done!  You upgrade your K system every 6 months or every two years?  Not much of a problem to spend a O couple of days or even a week or two to understand what your upgrade plans will  impact.  It is a must.  H > Are there additional files that don't show up in SHOW DEVICE/FILE, but > which are actually "open"?  N No way.  Not possible.  Unless you mount your system disk on other systems and do stupid things to it.   J > Do you control your workload and users well enough to know the system isG > absolutely "quiet" so you can attempt your on-line backup with a good  > chance of success?  N Can be done, however if you have users and applications on your system disk  -K your bad risk.  And yes, it can be done and very easily through a number of  methods.  L > If you really know the system is "quiet", why not shut it all the way downJ > and do the BACKUP correctly?  There's little additional impact to users.   Never quiet!  M I tend to believe that a lot of the "got to do a SABU" stems from the old VAX L version V5 years.  So much has changed since then so many advances made that+ the SABU issue has become less of an issue.   L I can not argue that the /IGNORE=INTER is the best solution, however it is a# close second and is worth the risk.   2 And of course, MY OPINION - your mileage may vary.     J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*n  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:03:46 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? ) Message-ID: <3FA8767A.B260D5CB@istop.com>    Robert Deininger wrote: C > SHOW DEVICE/FILE will show you what's open on a disk (on the node  > executing the command).   M SHOW DEV/FILES/NOSYS will give you a better listing, avoiding installed files ; which are extremely unlikely to have any write activity on.   H > Are there additional files that don't show up in SHOW DEVICE/FILE, but > which are actually "open"?  N If that is the case, it would be a serious flaw in VMS and SHOW/DEV/"FILE. OneM must howevbere be careful about sporadic file access (open file, read record, V close file) which would not likely show up at the time SHOW DEV/FILES would be issued.  L > If you really know the system is "quiet", why not shut it all the way downJ > and do the BACKUP correctly?  There's little additional impact to users.  L Because there are activities which are safe to run during backup. Consider aN web server which is read-only of the files, it doesn't matter if it runs whileV backup is running. So you can safely run backup while *some* applications are running.    N I think that the rule of the game for any system manager is to know his systemK and know it well.  If you don't know the system (yet), then yes, standalone C backup is the only safe thing to do. But once you start to know the J applications and how they work,  you can then make an informed decision on* what is needed to allow an on-line backup.  J And about time spent verifying integrity if you need to restore: YOu stillM need to spend time after the actual restore since your transaction files will M lack any transations since the backup, and you'll need to check to verify the H exact time of the last safe transaction so you know how much needs to be+ manually restored at the application level.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:06:46 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? ( Message-ID: <3FA8772E.CF14463@istop.com>   John Brandon wrote: Q > I assume that you maintain your queue database on the system disk, why not move P > it to a non-system disk using the QMAN$MASTER logical to define that location?  F While restoring queue definitions is good, is there much of a point inN restoring yesterday (or last week's) queue entries pointing to files which may no longer exist ?   H Seems to me that taking a proper snapshot of the queue databases withoutJ entries and keeping that on tape would do the trick. After you restore theL system disk, you opverwrite whatever queue database files had been backed upI with the safe "empty" backup that would have queue definitiosn only. Your > applications must then resubmit whatever procedures they need.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:18:17 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? ) Message-ID: <3FA879DF.7E631648@istop.com>    John Brandon wrote: J > > Are there additional files that don't show up in SHOW DEVICE/FILE, but > > which are actually "open"? > P > No way.  Not possible.  Unless you mount your system disk on other systems and > do stupid things to it.   J Oh, I just remembered. Yes. SHOW DEV/FILES only shows files opened on that% node, it isn't a clusterwide command.   M So it is perfectly possible to have a file appear to be closed on one node of L a cluster, but generating lots of activity from another node in the cluster.  ( Know your system applies even more here.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 04:53:00 GMT % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> C Subject: Re: Does anyone shut down for system disk backup any more? 7 Message-ID: <Mm%pb.1782$j91.1661@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>   K First of all, let me say that we use HSG mirroring and raid for redundancy. K I do not have anything on a production system that is not redundant in some K fashion.  With this, a drive failure has been a non-event.  Take care of it 	 whenever.   F We held Compaq responsible for designing an implementing an EnterpriseE Backup solution for all of our production clusters in our 24x365 dataeH center.  We wound up with a combination of basically 2 types of backups.- 1.) Oracle Database, and 2.) Everything Else!a  E For the Oracle DB, Hot backups with re-do logs was the weekly/nightlyh2 solution.  That is now replaced with RMAN backups.H For Everything Else (OS disk included) we are doing Images/Incrementals.K Both of these go to "local" backup drives.  This then gets snapped and sent  to tape.    & Now, let's look at what our risks are:I If an HSG goes toast, and I loose the entire HSG, restoring the OS is they least of my worries.F Restoring from the Online (Backup Disk) is performed at FC disk-2-disk speed.H If I was to have the OS disk trashed, I can re-build the OS from a CLONEL image most of a 2 node cluster in about 2 hours if I had to.  1 hour if 2 ofA us work in parallel.  This is mainly to restore the IP and DECNETn parameters.o  K If I where you, I would SNAP the image, and then back it up.  When we startpC putting production clusters on EVA's I'm sure that we probably willa re-design to do that.     4 Have you tested your restore strategy?  Did it work?  / Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in message 7 news:5a85bce2.0311040801.608c0d86@posting.google.com...e > Hi:o >mD > We've got a "procedure" in place where the computer operators shutE > down our main VMS system once a month in the middle of the night tonD > backup the system disk.  They boot the Standalone Environment from4 > another disk and then backup the real system disk. >OE > Does anyone still follow this procedure?  Is there a *need* to shuttD > down the system in order to get a good, clean backup of the systemD > disk?  Are there files (sysuaf?) that are open while the system isD > running and are difficult to backup unless the box is shutdown and > booted from another disk?u > F > The system in question is running OpenVMS 7.3-1 and has an EVA under > it for storage.  >sF > Should I just skip the "shutdown" and use the EVA to make a snapshot: > of the system disk?  Or just backup the system disk with > "/IGNORE=INTERLOCK"? >e0 > Thanks in advance for helpful tips and tricks. >n > -Scott Vieth :^)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:43:37 +0100o" From: labadie <labadie_g@decus.fr> Subject: Erp running on Vms ?o2 Message-ID: <bo93c8$9bk$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>  H I know many customers are leaving Vms because they are moving to an Erp ) (Sap, Baan, Bpcs, Oracle applications...)x   Sap used to run on Vms.d  < I wonder if there was an Erp available, today or in project.  L I think it may be critical for the future of Vms (on Vax, Alpha or Itanium).   Regardse   Grard   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 00:17:36 +01004 From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>! Subject: Re: Erp running on Vms ?n2 Message-ID: <bo9c80$7re$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>   labadie wrote:J > I know many customers are leaving Vms because they are moving to an Erp + > (Sap, Baan, Bpcs, Oracle applications...)  >  > Sap used to run on Vms.- > > > I wonder if there was an Erp available, today or in project. > E > I think it may be critical for the future of Vms (on Vax, Alpha or u > Itanium).a > 	 > Regards- >  > Grard >  I suppose you're right.nK It is my impression that HP is doing quite a lot at the moment to make VMS 4( attractive again for these applications.F Think of the recent BEA announcements, I've heard rumours that Oracle L Applications is coming back to VMS, and we may expect an announcement for a 9 product to help us porting old Oracle Forms applications.n  Q I only know applications like Baan and Sap by reputation. Most people I spoke to  Q consider them as horrible monstrosities. But hey, if management wants is because e+ all the other companies have it too.... :-)d   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Nov 2003 12:25:37 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)-% Subject: Re: Fortran calling sequence,3 Message-ID: <ApX8srWjXqCj@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <8sbfqvkevajrsh1qruc1ds74r6k1js097u@4ax.com>, John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk> writes:  N > It also seems it's not a PDP compatibility thing, but a Fortran-66 extension	 > issue. l  D    If I recall correctly the Fortran-77 compiers under RSX never did=    implement all the functionality of CHARACTER.  The missingnH    pieces were the ones which required something more complex than pass G    by reference.  So even though it's really a 66 vs. 77 thing, there's #    some PDP-ness to the issue, too.b   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:36:18 GMT 2 From: "Glen Herrmannsfeldt" <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>% Subject: Re: Fortran calling sequence . Message-ID: <CRVpb.80748$ao4.229816@attbi_s51>  : "John Laird" <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk> wrote in message2 news:lkteqv4qmg1pl7e3cs7t2jkvjugj4hsrmi@4ax.com...H > On 4 Nov 2003 09:49:38 +0100, huber@mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber) wrote: > H > >In article <RfHpb.102308$e01.354040@attbi_s02>, "Glen Herrmannsfeldt" <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:L > >> Could someone with a VAX/VMS Fortran compiler compile a Fortran program such > >> asa' > >>       CALL XYZ('this is a string')@ > >>       STOP  > >>       END > >>5 > >> With the option to print out the generated code?o   (snip)   > No, the argument block is:  $ > 0008        .LONG       ^X00000001  > 000C        .CKARG      $LOCAL  K > which is 1 argument, that being the result of this .ckarg construct.  You I > will find that the emitted object code actually instructs the linker toSD > select one of two values to insert at that point, depending on the declaredK > type of the argument in the compiled object code for XYZ.  I don't recallrK > whether it is a positive test for "by descriptor" (that is, declared as aaD > character variable), but I think that is what happens.  If so, the argumentI > will in fact be the address of $LOCAL (the "argument" to .CKARG), whichrE > contains the descriptor.  Otherwise, it will be the contents of thef longwordI > following $LOCAL, which here is the address of $PDATA, thus passing theo1 > string by reference (and with a trailing null).h   (snip)  J Exactly what I didn't think was going to happen.   I will have to find the thread in c.l.f again.  I Many years ago I had ported a program to VAX Fortran (from RT-11 Fortran) K that passed apostrophed strings to integer arrays.  Sometime after I had itaJ working it occurred to me that it shouldn't work, but it did.  I didn't goK back to find out why, though.  My guess at the time was that the additionalmH information was passed at the end of the argument list, or maybe someone' else had told me that it could do that.s  % thanks for the answer to the mystery.e   -- glenc   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:25:50 GMTw& From: Rick Jones <foo@bar.baz.invalid>" Subject: Re: Full Duplex NIC cards2 Message-ID: <OHVpb.8408$TW4.1520@news.cpqcorp.net>  7 Michael D. Ober <obermd-.@.-alum-mit-edu-nospam> wrote:hF > We have an AlphaServer 1200 5/533 running OpenVMS V7.3-1.  The DE500F > card in the server is constantly reporting collisions in full duplex@ > mode.  In half duplex mode, no collisions are reported.  Three > questions:  C Are you sure that isn't backwards? (Either in what you typed, or inaE what the tools are reporting) Full-duplex does not run CSMA/CD, so byi) definition there should be no collisions.w  
 rick jones -- lG oxymoron n, Hummer H2 with California Save Our Coasts and Oceans plates F these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)A feel free to post, OR email to raj in cup.hp.com  but NOT BOTH...s   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:12:15 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)e" Subject: Re: Full Duplex NIC cards2 Message-ID: <jnWpb.8411$XU4.4222@news.cpqcorp.net>  [ In article <OHVpb.8408$TW4.1520@news.cpqcorp.net>, Rick Jones <foo@bar.baz.invalid> writes:88 :Michael D. Ober <obermd-.@.-alum-mit-edu-nospam> wrote:G :> We have an AlphaServer 1200 5/533 running OpenVMS V7.3-1.  The DE500 G :> card in the server is constantly reporting collisions in full duplex>A :> mode.  In half duplex mode, no collisions are reported.  Three 
 :> questions:c :)D :Are you sure that isn't backwards? (Either in what you typed, or inF :what the tools are reporting) Full-duplex does not run CSMA/CD, so by* :definition there should be no collisions.  F   Please check the OpenVMS FAQ for details of DE500 operations for theF   available controller variants, and please check Ask The Wizard topicG   (4658) for details of half- and full-duplex operations with Ethernet.N  G   Almost certainly the negotiated attributes or the current SRM consoleeG   setting for the DE500 are wrong (or the switch has negotiated wrong).uF   When auto-negotiation is disabled on the controller, then the switchH   will typically correctly detect the speed and will also correctly tendG   to select half-duplex operations.  But if the DE500 NIC is configured.E   for, for instance, Fast Full-duplex operations, problems can ensue.o  F   Again, the OpenVMS FAQ has details on the DE500 series, particularlyB   in terms of capabilities of the variants, and of configurations.  E   There are expectations of a change in the OpenVMS LAN drivers, and  @   particularly modifications that will cause the LAN drivers to @   (likely optionally and selectively) fail over into half-duplex=   operations when errors arise during full-duplex operations.G  D   Here is the script of one of the more common and more typical (andG   yes, even slightly fanciful :-) Ethernet switch negotiations possibleh/   when auto-negotiation is disabled on the NIC:c  >       Switch:  Hello, I'll be your switch today.  Here are the?                details of the current switch capabilities and am; 	       request for the details of the NIC settings.  Would ! 	       you like coffee to start?O         NIC:     <silence>  B       Switch:  Okfine.  I can determine the NIC Speed, but the NICA                Duplex setting -- and no, NIC Speed and NIC Duplexm9 	       are not some new team of Private Investigators --rD                is not apparent.  Accordingly, half-duplex operations> 	       are the lowest common denominator across all NICs, and0 	       thus (correctly) selected by the switch.      N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faqnN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.come   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:25:40 -0500# From: "Hal Kuff" <kuff@comcast.net>n Subject: Help W/NAS proposal... - Message-ID: <bo9g1d$dq9@library2.airnews.net>c  5 On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:11:41 -0500, Hoff Hoffman wrotel4 (in message <17vpb.8262$0b3.7098@news.cpqcorp.net>):    J    In this case we are looking at RMS Journaling.... we need the AIJ files- available to be applied to the remote system.a  A Well.... we have 5 large storageworks sans and have looked at thesK continuous availability product but it is severely ill-defined and there isrK no supported way to connect the two systems over IP (the cisco 9216 with IPaF module is not well understood at HP storage even though they sell it).    J    There are a lot of smart people here... it would appear that there is aK way to take two NAS units, set them up to mirror a volume between BaltimoreeB and Reno and then have an OpenVMS system place AIJ files there forJ replication to the remote site.  The NAS boxes will handle everything, theF question at hand is how to make the local NAS disk a target of VMS I/O operations...?                = > In article <6MCdnVqhu5E0gDmiRVn-vQ@comcast.com>, "Hal Kuff"t > <kuff@tessco.com> writes:d >>K >> What we would like to do is mirror two disks across a T-3 ..... as a T-3 L >> will pull about 20gb/hour of uncompressed data it seems reasonable that aL >> pair of HP NAS units could keep up with 10gb per hour..... We would setup aeK >> pair of the NAS boxes on each end of the T-3 and then NFS mount a volume'J >> from the NAS unit on an OpenVMS system at each end.  One OpenVMS systemL >> would write ot the NFS disk constantly and the blocks would be synched up >> with the other system.o >> >> Is anyone doing this? >aH >   OpenVMS host-based Volume Shadowing and OpenVMS Cluster software canJ >   and does operate across a T3, assuming the distance involved is withinJ >   the SPD-specified limit.  This configuration would be fully supported. >aF >   That written, OpenVMS host-based Volume Shadowing does not operateF >   across the NFS protocol; it does not support data storage on disks >   that are NFS-served. >pH >   There are also a DRS-based (hardware-based) approaches that can alsoJ >   remote mirroring (hardware folks often use the term mirroring, OpenVMSI >   tends to use the term shadowing) of data.  You may or may not be able*J >   to access the data "hot" on both ends -- that said, the hardware-basedI >   solutions I've seen have a primary/active and an off-line/hot-standbyMI >   design.  (OpenVMS Volume Shadowing allows distributed/peer read-write  >   access.) >fL >   If you want to roll your own transactional and shadowing protocol, well,F >   have at.  (I'll assume you are aware of the volume of work you areD >   clearly inviting here, as this is not a trivial effort -- normalI >   operations are typically easy to code and operate, it's the detectionaJ >   and recovery from errors and failures that's a far more difficult part >   of the work involved.) >mI >   I'd expect that an NFS-based scheme might well need to verify the I/OeJ >   using a read-after-write, and the simplest implementation of this willG >   significantly reduce bandwidth.  (MD5- or checksum-based scheme for G >   verifying the results -- with the assistance of computes and I/O onmH >   the remote server -- would obviously and potentially reduce the load >   on the wire itself.) >oI >   There are "lesser" approaches available as well, which snapshot fileseJ >   and/or transactions across spindles and across a network, and that canJ >   allow the database server(s) to roll forward from the last checkpoint.J >   This isn't as nice as mirroring or shadowing, but it can be easier andJ >   cheaper -- and it trades off the ability to hot-start during failures;K >   some resynchronization effort and/or some restart-focused site-specificeC >   procedures are involved as part of a failure-restart operation.e >  >d2 >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> > -----------------------------t4 >     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ --  www.hp.com/go/openvms/faqd4 >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion > ---------------------------bG >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comw >a   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:17:00 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)o# Subject: Re: Help W/NAS proposal...-2 Message-ID: <gcYpb.8419$w65.1614@news.cpqcorp.net>  S In article <bo9g1d$dq9@library2.airnews.net>, "Hal Kuff" <kuff@comcast.net> writes:u6 :On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:11:41 -0500, Hoff Hoffman wrote5 :(in message <17vpb.8262$0b3.7098@news.cpqcorp.net>):e  E   You are seeking to roll your own mirroring, and this is not an easytD   problem.  (It only looks like an easy problem.  The same could be F   said about disaster tolerance -- while it might initially look easy,F   there are just so many things that can go wrong that the problem canG   and often does become quite difficult.  Again, not so much because oftE   the technology involved, but because of the vast number of failuresu   that can arise.)  K :   In this case we are looking at RMS Journaling.... we need the AIJ filesb. :available to be applied to the remote system.  I   I don't know if it is possible to grab a hot copy of the RMS journalingw5   files.  That is something you will want to confirm.o  B :Well.... we have 5 large storageworks sans and have looked at theL :continuous availability product but it is severely ill-defined and there isL :no supported way to connect the two systems over IP (the cisco 9216 with IPG :module is not well understood at HP storage even though they sell it).o  F   I am not familiar with a "continuous availability product", at least   not by that particular name.  F   The target here would be clustering, which -- over switches, though I   not over IP -- will do what you want, with host-based volume shadowing.i  K :   There are a lot of smart people here... it would appear that there is a L :way to take two NAS units, set them up to mirror a volume between BaltimoreC :and Reno and then have an OpenVMS system place AIJ files there forcK :replication to the remote site.  The NAS boxes will handle everything, theYG :question at hand is how to make the local NAS disk a target of VMS I/Oo :operations...?s  E   OpenVMS shadowing does not operate over IP protocols, though it canh!   and does operate over T3 links.r  G   Controller-level operations tend to have difficulty ensuring multipleoG   copies remain in synchronization across hosts -- this is part of what H   the cluster connection manager and the quorum scheme will maintain forF   you -- and particularly that the possibility of data partitioning is@   avoided.  To maintain shared-write access, you need to ensure E   coordination and synchronization.    Put another way, a distributedrE   shared-write request involving an IP network link effectively seeks B   to implement a connection manager and quorum scheme (or a direct   analog) over the IP link.6  E   There are controllers that provide a single writer and fail-over onpF   occurances of errors -- in a way, this is akin to clustering back inF   (as it was then known) VAX/VMS V3 vintage CI configurations.  DRM isE   an example.  There are also the "last write wins" disk I/O schemes,eB   such as that provided by NFS.  But I know of no synchronized andD   distributed shared-write scheme available within storage hardware.       N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faqdN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comp   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 05:50:23 GMT % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> # Subject: Re: Help W/NAS proposal... 6 Message-ID: <zc0qb.2020$j91.751@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>   Hal:  K First of all let me say that you seem to be approaching the DRM solution ind a bass-ackwards order.  I There are basically 3 levels to transfer your data at.  I think that thisc& lists them in the preferred order too.  ! 1.) The Storage Controller level.m 2.) The VMS OS level.t 3.) The Network level.  J You have selected option #3  Potentially the slowest level to attempt thisL at.  Hopefully you are at least using GIG-E for network connectivity, or are you using 100MB network?  G If you really have 5 LARGE StorageWorks SANS, do you have a maintenancebI contract on this equipment?  Who is your Storage TAM?  Get them to designlJ this for you.  If your local folks don't know anything, and your TAM isn'tL much help, then get an Engineering rep pulled into the deal.  It sounds likeL you are trying to design this on your own which makes me suspect that you doJ not have a support contract, or good sales folks.  I would just ask one of5 my TAMs these kinds of questions as a starting point.i  K Note:  I define BIG at 25 TerraBytes (What I have in one EVA), and LARGE atiF 100 Terrabytes!  OR, 16 SAN switches in a single fabric.  What is your definition?a  K Who makes your SAN switches?  Are they Compaq branded Brocade switches?  IfhK so, Have you talked to Brocade about your Problem?  I was just at a BrocadetG Users Group meeting tonight.  Among other topics, They where discussingtK ISCSI and their newer/future product releases.  They would probably be able ( to help with a SAN-2-SAN based solution.  J How much data do you need to replicate on a daily basis?  Can your IP pipeJ handle that?  If so, you should be able to do it between 2 VMS systems andI skip the NAS head BS.  Your main problem as I see it is that your companyRF does not want to fork over the buck$ to get you the bandwidth that youJ really need for making this a viable VMS solution....  So, you are turningK to Microshit products to try and hide the problem.  DRM or remote shadowingaI is going to solve this at an easier complexity level than trying to write  your VMS data to a NAS head.  H What happens to your VMS systems when the NAS head goes down?  Will this' trash your data?  Have you tested this?tG How much will sending this data to a NAS head slow down your systems???l      J If you are looking to make a Windows solution for a VMS storage pool, thenG in my opinion, you are asking for major problems.  CASA, not NAS is the L remote linking solution that you need to investigate if you really insist onJ going down the Microshit low bandwidth IP connectivity solution.  CASA was$ designed for remote IP connectivity.        , Hal Kuff <kuff@comcast.net> wrote in message' news:bo9g1d$dq9@library2.airnews.net...?7 > On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:11:41 -0500, Hoff Hoffman wroteo6 > (in message <17vpb.8262$0b3.7098@news.cpqcorp.net>): >  > L >    In this case we are looking at RMS Journaling.... we need the AIJ files/ > available to be applied to the remote system.v > C > Well.... we have 5 large storageworks sans and have looked at thehJ > continuous availability product but it is severely ill-defined and there isJ > no supported way to connect the two systems over IP (the cisco 9216 with IPH > module is not well understood at HP storage even though they sell it). >  > L >    There are a lot of smart people here... it would appear that there is aC > way to take two NAS units, set them up to mirror a volume between.	 BaltimoredD > and Reno and then have an OpenVMS system place AIJ files there forL > replication to the remote site.  The NAS boxes will handle everything, theH > question at hand is how to make the local NAS disk a target of VMS I/O > operations...? >, >d >u >d >  >r >t > ? > > In article <6MCdnVqhu5E0gDmiRVn-vQ@comcast.com>, "Hal Kuff"h > > <kuff@tessco.com> writes:i > >>I > >> What we would like to do is mirror two disks across a T-3 ..... as al T-3eL > >> will pull about 20gb/hour of uncompressed data it seems reasonable that ayH > >> pair of HP NAS units could keep up with 10gb per hour..... We would setup  > a F > >> pair of the NAS boxes on each end of the T-3 and then NFS mount a volumeL > >> from the NAS unit on an OpenVMS system at each end.  One OpenVMS systemK > >> would write ot the NFS disk constantly and the blocks would be syncheda up > >> with the other system.k > >> > >> Is anyone doing this? > >yJ > >   OpenVMS host-based Volume Shadowing and OpenVMS Cluster software canL > >   and does operate across a T3, assuming the distance involved is withinL > >   the SPD-specified limit.  This configuration would be fully supported. > >jH > >   That written, OpenVMS host-based Volume Shadowing does not operateH > >   across the NFS protocol; it does not support data storage on disks > >   that are NFS-served. > >tJ > >   There are also a DRS-based (hardware-based) approaches that can alsoL > >   remote mirroring (hardware folks often use the term mirroring, OpenVMSK > >   tends to use the term shadowing) of data.  You may or may not be ableiL > >   to access the data "hot" on both ends -- that said, the hardware-basedK > >   solutions I've seen have a primary/active and an off-line/hot-standby K > >   design.  (OpenVMS Volume Shadowing allows distributed/peer read-writet > >   access.) > > H > >   If you want to roll your own transactional and shadowing protocol, well,hH > >   have at.  (I'll assume you are aware of the volume of work you areF > >   clearly inviting here, as this is not a trivial effort -- normalK > >   operations are typically easy to code and operate, it's the detection L > >   and recovery from errors and failures that's a far more difficult part > >   of the work involved.) > > K > >   I'd expect that an NFS-based scheme might well need to verify the I/O*L > >   using a read-after-write, and the simplest implementation of this willI > >   significantly reduce bandwidth.  (MD5- or checksum-based scheme for0I > >   verifying the results -- with the assistance of computes and I/O oneJ > >   the remote server -- would obviously and potentially reduce the load > >   on the wire itself.) > > K > >   There are "lesser" approaches available as well, which snapshot filesuL > >   and/or transactions across spindles and across a network, and that canL > >   allow the database server(s) to roll forward from the last checkpoint.L > >   This isn't as nice as mirroring or shadowing, but it can be easier andL > >   cheaper -- and it trades off the ability to hot-start during failures;? > >   some resynchronization effort and/or some restart-focused 
 site-specific E > >   procedures are involved as part of a failure-restart operation.  > >s > >s4 > >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h>! > > -----------------------------i5 > >     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ --h > www.hp.com/go/openvms/faqu6 > >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion > > --------------------------- I > >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com  > >c >R >D >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:04:50 +01005- From: WiseLYNX <wiselynx.naima@fastwebnet.it>E* Subject: Re: newbie problem installing VMS8 Message-ID: <FoVpb.19935$gA.11293@tornado.fastwebnet.it>   Jim Mehlhop wrote:  +  >>>> $backup dka400:vms072.b /save dka200:   >>>>e/  >>>> and here is the (unespected) error I get:0  >>>> K  >>>> %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, SABKUP$DKA400: is offline.  Mount verification inv  >>>> progress.a  ? > Everytime I have seen this it was a SCSI termination problem.e > C > Either need to add a terminator to the end or remove an internal y& > terminator in the middle of the bus.  : (sorry for the cut'n'paste, it was just to get some order)  C I tryied to set correctly the termination (or at least, I think it i? should be correct :), and it does not seem to change anything. t8 Currently, the devices on the SCSI bus are set this way:  G channel-A......dka200(hd)......dka400(cdrom).terminated(by setting the h right jumper on the cdrom rear)d  F channel-B......dkb300(hd)......terminated(by a phisical terminator on  the back of the VAX)  B I think it should not be a too-long-cable problem, as Chris Moore F pointed out in another post, because I'm using just the internal flat G cables that were already present (I did unplug one extra HD in facts..)e   -- s    Wise	   O  LYNXt  8 GPG key: http://wiselynx.interfree.it/wiselynx.naima.ascA MD5 checksum: http://wiselynx.interfree.it/wiselynx.naima.asc.md5E   -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----y Version: 3.1I GE>$/IT/S d+ s: !a>? C++(+++)>$ U P>+ L++>++++ E--- W++ N ?o ?K w-- ?O ?MdG ?V>+ PS+ !PE Y+ PGP+ t- ?5 X- R+(*) tv- b+(++)>+++ DI(++) !D G e++ h!*@l r%>++ y-->+n ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------u   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:21:31 +0100s- From: WiseLYNX <wiselynx.naima@fastwebnet.it>d* Subject: Re: newbie problem installing VMS8 Message-ID: <iEVpb.19973$gA.12404@tornado.fastwebnet.it>  L > I was able to boot with an RRD42 cdrom drive. This is an old SCSI-1 drive.O > However, I did have problems booting from a SCSI-I disk drive. VMS would boot K > its early stages, then would go into mount verification (the drive didn'ttJ > respond to some command and hung). Physically powering off the drive andL > powering it back a few seconds later on would the allow VMS to continue to) > boot and it would work fine afterwards.I  0 mh.. tryied this one also, but I got no results.  E I fear the only chance I have is to try every SCSI cdrom drive I can m; find - I'll find one that works, sooner or later, I hope :Po  I Thanks everybody for helping, let me know if any other possible solution -A comes into your mind, I'll let know if I can solve the problem :)e   -- o    Wise	   O  LYNXR  8 GPG key: http://wiselynx.interfree.it/wiselynx.naima.ascA MD5 checksum: http://wiselynx.interfree.it/wiselynx.naima.asc.md5e   -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----u Version: 3.1I GE>$/IT/S d+ s: !a>? C++(+++)>$ U P>+ L++>++++ E--- W++ N ?o ?K w-- ?O ?MwG ?V>+ PS+ !PE Y+ PGP+ t- ?5 X- R+(*) tv- b+(++)>+++ DI(++) !D G e++ h!*@m r%>++ y-->+t ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Nov 2003 04:29:47 +0100b) From: Right Here <under.your@nose.in.rta> / Subject: Re: Oh, where, oh where is JF Mezei???d9 Message-ID: <2F0WWRL337930.1868634259@Gilgamesh-frog.org>d  3 gregorymorrow@earthlink.net (Gregory Morrow) wrote:h  
 >scott wrote:e >sC >> Ok AJC, whatever you say.  I cannot count the number off whining H >> foreigner visitors, students, or immigrants, and even posters here onD >> RTA.  It seems that that is all they can do is whine and complainA >> about everything that is done here.  Very rarely do I ever seedH >> anything positive, and I mean anything.  Most Americans, like me, canF >> accept that things aren't perfect here, but it is not as bad as has >> been portrayed here.. >  > 7 >Oh, where, oh where is JF Mezei when we need him...???   0 Having an online wank-a-thon not surprisingly...  ! Phi Mosis <Phi.Mosis@anatomy.org>d# Bal Anatis <Bal.Anatis@anatomy.org>   Fren Ullum <F.Ullum@anatomy.org>* Wan Tnoneofit <W.Tnoneofit@weirdnames.org> Wan Itbad <W.Itbad@inneed.org>! Wan Towank <W.ToWank@anatomy.org>- Wan Tolik <w.tolik@anatomy.org>e% Empty Stomach <E.Stomach@anatomy.org>e$ Full Stomach <f.stomach@anatomy.org>$ Ivanna Getlaid <I.Getlaid@onani.org>& Ivanna Wankalot <I.Wankalot@onani.org>$ Ivanna Umpalot <Humpalot@drevil.com>& Inserted Finger <I.Finger@anatomy.org>" Smelly Cat <S.Cat@friends.nbc.com>% Lihk Mhygroin <L.MyGroin@anatomy.org>  Pre Khum <P.Khum@anatomy.org>-& Torn Ligament <T.Ligament@anatomy.org>( Voluptuous Nipple <V.nipple@anatomy.org>$ Testos Terone <t.terone@anatomy.org>! Upper Gonad <U.Gonad@anatomy.org>s! Right Gonad <R.Gonad@anatomy.org>g  Left Gonad <L.Gonad@anatomy.org>$ Tyson's Glands <Tyson.G@anatomy.org> Nose Hair <n.hair@anatomy.org>% Coronal Sulcus <C.Sulcus@anatomy.org> % Corpus Cavernus <manhood@anatomy.org>N$ Armpit moisture <armpit@anatomy.org>' Pubic dandruff <P.dandruff@anatomy.org>s Onani Room <onani@hotels.com>  Pubic Nair <shaved@anatomy.org>w' Flatulent Meatus <F.Meatus@anatomy.org>i& Arnie's Banana <weiner@terminator.com> Wet fart <w.Fart@smell.org>o( Raised eyebrows <r.eyebrows@anatomy.org>% Vas Deferens <V.deferens@anatomy.org>r% Naked Canuck <N.canuck@naturists.org>,& Arni's socks <Smelly.Socks@arnold.org>* Notable Exception <N.exception@untied.com>' Deep Fried Foreskin <dff@mcdonalds.com>o" Aroma of Smegma <aroma@chanel.org>$ Popped Cherry <P.Cherry@anatomy.org>& Unpopped Cherry <U.Cherry@anatomy.org>" Raised Organ <R.Organ@anatomy.org>' Tatooed Ovaries <T.Ovaries@anatomy.org>o' Pierced eyelid <p.eyelid@piercings.org>n( Limp Tomato <limp.tomato@vegetables.org>, Eggplant Earrings <e.earrings@piercings.org>. Banana Underpants <B.Underpants@hillfiger.org>% Loose Scrotum <l.scrotum@anatomy.org>b Naval Lint <navel@lint.mil>p' Ingrown Toenail <i.toenail@anatomy.org>s% Throbbing vulva <t.vulva@anatomy.org>s$ Flapping Labias <flabia@anatomy.org> Twin Gonads <two@gonads.com>- Monica Lewinski <billclinton@westchester.com>  etc.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:56:12 -0500i* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>/ Subject: Re: OpenVMS i64 missing in HP WEB pagee) Message-ID: <3FA7F64A.AC9E801F@istop.com>a   Bob Koehler wrote:B > > %SYSTEM-E-MISSING, OpenVMS i64 is missing in the last sentence > D >    HP doesn't "have" that yet, at least not for sale to customers.  N Considering that VMS on IA64 is available to developpers, if there were a willL to showcase VMS, there would be a way to include it. After all, Microsodt isJ allowed to brag about new features in its OS that won't be available until many months.  N They could have added something akin to "And of course, VMS will bring to IA64:  the ultimate power of clustering and disaster tolerance".   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:40:46 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) / Subject: Re: OpenVMS i64 missing in HP WEB page.L Message-ID: <rdeininger-0411032041190001@user-105n9rd.dialup.mindspring.com>  A In article <3fa7a6ad$0$231$636a55ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandia <no@spam.com> wrote:   >Robert Deininger wrote: >iN >> http://www.hp.com/products1/servers/integrity/entry_level/rx2600/index.html >> .. >> But VMS isn't available yet for the rx2600. >o >Bob, heard of Alain Afflelou?  3 If you're replying to me, I'm not Bob.  I'm Robert.   ' No, I've never heard of Alain Afflelou.e    O >"Supports HP-UX 11i ver 2, Microsoft Windows Server 2003 Enterprise Edition fK >(64-bit), Linux and OpenVMS for HP Integrity Servers, evaluation release"     H Well, to be more precise, VMS isn't available yet for the rx2600, unlessH you're someone special.  Try ordering it, and you'll find out if you are special.  G When 8.1 ships, you won't need to be special any more. (Just brave. ;-)t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:27:16 GMTg9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> ' Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Itanium and Parts.2 Message-ID: <EYTpb.8394$6P4.7045@news.cpqcorp.net>   Agreed.n  I Many of the current devices on say, a GS1280, will work on Itanium.  SomemI devices we are not bringing forward so that we can align with a common IO  strategy for servers.k      . "Nigel Barker" <nigel@hp.com> wrote in message2 news:iblfqvotpn3pt7ar9iu5oo4fo0d08n8nq5@4ax.com...H > On 4 Nov 2003 07:56:17 -0800, fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) wrote: >t- > >Do you know if will be possible to migratea+ > >old DEC parts (mainly PCI hardware) froml, > >the AlphaServers to the Itanium Servers ? > >u< > >Example: old DEC NICs, Fibre Channel LP-8000/9000, etc... > J > Many of the old parts will not physically or more correctly electrically work inn$ > the new systems e.g. 5V PCI cards. >s > -- > Nigel Barker! > Live from the sunny Cote d'Azurm   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:51:32 GMTh5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger)e' Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Itanium and PartshL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0411032052040001@user-105n9rd.dialup.mindspring.com>  E In article <iblfqvotpn3pt7ar9iu5oo4fo0d08n8nq5@4ax.com>, Nigel Barkere <nigel@hp.com> wrote:@  N >On 4 Nov 2003 07:56:17 -0800, fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) wrote: >v, >>Do you know if will be possible to migrate* >>old DEC parts (mainly PCI hardware) from+ >>the AlphaServers to the Itanium Servers ?  >>; >>Example: old DEC NICs, Fibre Channel LP-8000/9000, etc...s >nI >Many of the old parts will not physically or more correctly electrically- work ina# >the new systems e.g. 5V PCI cards.   G To bring a card from alpha to I64 (and have it work), all the following- will have to be true:.F 1. It will have to be electrically and mechanically compatible.  Don't expect 5V PCI slots on Itanium.a  4 2. There will have to be a VMS device driver on I64.  O 3. For boot support, there may have to be additional console/EFI firmware bits.r  H Even if a card "works" it might not be "supported" on I64.  The same PCIJ card _will_ have different part numbers on Alpha and Itanium.  There might% be firmware differences on the cards.   H Since support contracts usually involve specific, named types of adapterF hardware, support is not likely to happen automatically.  The red tape9 specialists will have to do extra work to make it happen.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:51:14 -0500m* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>* Subject: Re: OT: an example of a modern OS) Message-ID: <3FA7F520.EDD5DE87@istop.com>o   Fabio Cardoso wrote:E > How about the GUI ? You shouldnt forget that these PDAs operating 1 > systems are orientated to the User Interfacing.o  M Interestingly, in the case of Symbian OS, they unbundled the GUI from the OS.rG There are primitives and that is it. Each mobile phone manufacturer hasnJ adopted its own GUI layer to give their phones a distinctive look/feel for competitive reasons.   > The lack of OVMS? > nowadays is a good graphical/fast windowing system. Of course = > there is the Open/X Graphic stuff but for me its obsolete.t  G If X is so obsolete, how come linux is based on it ? How come Apple nowo supports it in its OS-X ?i  J The VMS implementation of X may be obsolete because engineers haven't beenW given permission to bring it up to current standards, but that doesn't make X obsolete.-   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Nov 2003 11:08:35 -0800u1 From: joe.lofft@itec.mail.suny.edu (Joseph Lofft)f5 Subject: Piping X-Windows traffic over ssh on OpenVMSi= Message-ID: <de82e5e4.0311041108.1e8523ea@posting.google.com>   B Does anyone have an example setup of how to pipe X-Windows traffic? over SSH on OpenVMS.  I have not been able to acomplish this on8' OpenVMS the way it can be done on UNIX.    Thanks in advance.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Nov 2003 14:33:58 -0600u; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o9 Subject: Re: Piping X-Windows traffic over ssh on OpenVMS 3 Message-ID: <U8F7Tu+JbYP$@eisner.encompasserve.org>O  q In article <de82e5e4.0311041108.1e8523ea@posting.google.com>, joe.lofft@itec.mail.suny.edu (Joseph Lofft) writes:kD > Does anyone have an example setup of how to pipe X-Windows trafficA > over SSH on OpenVMS.  I have not been able to acomplish this onk) > OpenVMS the way it can be done on UNIX.e  &    Sure, if you tell us what you want.  F    Are you trying to connect using VMS as the X server or client?  The-    ssh server or client?  Which TCP/IP stack?   G    Or in plainer speak, what commands are you trying to do (or emulate)t    on what platform?  B    For a complicated example, I have a fellow SSH from a local VMSF    system to a remote VMS system, starting an X11 client which tunnelsB    back to the local VMS system and then gets pushed onto his VXT.C    That's non-trivial and probably more complex than what you need.L  G    A very common problem is a login.com that does a set display commandeB    based on the needs of a non-SSH connection.  That wipes out the4    correct display which SSH provides automatically.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:22:08 +0000F- From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com>r6 Subject: Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question* Message-ID: <3FA850C0.9020102@bigpond.com>   Tom Wade espoused:9 > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in messagee% > news:3FA479E9.6352DE4B@istop.com...t > C >>What do system managers and VMS engineers prefer when it comes tod$ >>installing freeware applications ? >  > M > It should use either VMSINSTAL or PCSI.  Anything else looks amateurish.  IaM > have a preference for VMSINSTAL as it allows you to do a lot of things thatjM > PCSI doesn't (e.g. link the .EXE file as part of the install process to geteG > around Ident mismatch problems with base VMS or other layered product L > images, such as PMDF_SHARE_LIBRARY), but if you only need to stick a bunch2 > of files in a certain location, PCSI will do it.  B We use PCSI to distribute our application.  The target systems run? various versions of VMS and we link the executables on the usertE machines.  What makes you think you can't link as part of a PCSI kit?r  
 	[...snip...]i  N > I have been working on a tool to help the porting of such C code.  It allowsM > you to adapt an existing C program that requires Unix syntax to accept bothnJ > VMS and/or Unix commands, by changing two lines of the main program, andN > adding a module that is generated from table command files.  If anyone has aH > C program they are trying to port, and is interested, let me know.  My) > intention is to release it as freeware.-   I like the sound of that..  
 	[...snip...]n   Regards, Dave.8 -- 1I David B Sneddon (dbs)    VMS Systems Programmer     dbsneddon@bigpond.comDI Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/2I DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htmtI "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennonn   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:37:10 GMTt# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) 6 Subject: Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question2 Message-ID: <avYpb.8421$q55.1825@news.cpqcorp.net>  Z In article <3FA850C0.9020102@bigpond.com>, David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> writes: :Tom Wade espoused:l: :> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message& :> news:3FA479E9.6352DE4B@istop.com... :> oD :>>What do system managers and VMS engineers prefer when it comes to% :>>installing freeware applications ?  :> E :> rN :> It should use either VMSINSTAL or PCSI.  Anything else looks amateurish.  IN :> have a preference for VMSINSTAL as it allows you to do a lot of things thatN :> PCSI doesn't (e.g. link the .EXE file as part of the install process to getH :> around Ident mismatch problems with base VMS or other layered productM :> images, such as PMDF_SHARE_LIBRARY), but if you only need to stick a bunche3 :> of files in a certain location, PCSI will do it.  :iC :We use PCSI to distribute our application.  The target systems runi@ :various versions of VMS and we link the executables on the userF :machines.  What makes you think you can't link as part of a PCSI kit?    E   While all manner of odd stuff is possible underneath PCSI, trackingeD   and uninstalling of locally-built tools can be interesting.  (PCSIC   doesn't necessarily know about these locally-built files, and caneE   become accordingly tangled during deinstallation or upgrades.)  And D   rather worse, resolving errors in site-built code can be even moreF   interesting, as the site environment can differ and perturb linking,D   and as the resulting maps may or may not be available for decoding
   tracebacks.O  A   I generally don't recommend on-site linking of images under then/   control of a kit, regardless of the protocol.e  F   I prefer to provide a set of pre-built images.  If there is a chanceE   that there are other versions required, I prefer to provide sourcesrE   (if that is appropriate) or to provide object modules, and a set ofoG   linking procedures.  I prefer to seperate the installation steps from =   the build and from the configuration steps, in other words.-     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq-N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com:   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 03:06:35 +0000l- From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com>n6 Subject: Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question* Message-ID: <3FA8693B.7080104@bigpond.com>   Hoff Hoffman espoused:\ > In article <3FA850C0.9020102@bigpond.com>, David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> writes: > :tE > :We use PCSI to distribute our application.  The target systems runvB > :various versions of VMS and we link the executables on the userH > :machines.  What makes you think you can't link as part of a PCSI kit? >  > G >   While all manner of odd stuff is possible underneath PCSI, trackingtF >   and uninstalling of locally-built tools can be interesting.  (PCSIE >   doesn't necessarily know about these locally-built files, and can G >   become accordingly tangled during deinstallation or upgrades.)  AndtF >   rather worse, resolving errors in site-built code can be even moreH >   interesting, as the site environment can differ and perturb linking,F >   and as the resulting maps may or may not be available for decoding >   tracebacks.0 > C >   I generally don't recommend on-site linking of images under the>1 >   control of a kit, regardless of the protocol.s > H >   I prefer to provide a set of pre-built images.  If there is a chanceG >   that there are other versions required, I prefer to provide sourceseG >   (if that is appropriate) or to provide object modules, and a set ofhI >   linking procedures.  I prefer to seperate the installation steps frome? >   the build and from the configuration steps, in other words.k >    > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------M >     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faqoP >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------G >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comp  C We store the objects locally as well as the "assembled" executablesnF and we have procedures that will relink from those objects if we think# that anything has been compromised. D We also setup the directories as search lists with a dummy directoryJ first to trap anyone who just copies things around.  We also have a dummy J library (with a LNK$LIBRARY logical) to trap people who throw things into  LNK$LIBRARY from habit. A It's a bit of a worry when you have to take these steps to try toi control developers.p   Regards, Dave.n -- lI David B Sneddon (dbs)    VMS Systems Programmer     dbsneddon@bigpond.com/I Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/cI DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htmaI "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennon    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:39:19 -0500p* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>6 Subject: Re: To foreign or verb ? That is the question) Message-ID: <3FA870C1.3B74F404@istop.com>    Hoff Hoffman wrote:dC >   I generally don't recommend on-site linking of images under thei1 >   control of a kit, regardless of the protocol.   J What are the arguments in favour of your suggestion ? I always tought thatI on-site linking was the good way to distribute software since it not only J allows a customer to link against whatever version of VMS, but also relink if/when he upgrades.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:30:04 -05002 From: "Timothy Stark" <sword7nospam@speakeasy.org>  Subject: Re: TS10, still around?2 Message-ID: <gO6dnbaRi9AS2TWiRTvUqQ@speakeasy.net>  / "Rob Komar" <rkomar@telus.net> wrote in messager% news:u6m7ob.342.ln@robpc2.home.org... 	 > Hi Tim,-F > I'm curious as to why you're doing this.  Just for fun?  Personally,B > I would have liked to see performance improved, and I doubt that) > moving to C++ will help in that regard.i  J Yes, I did successfully booted VAX firmware on C++ version and it resultedF slightly faster than the C version. On C++ version, it was 1.2 mips onI 450mhz PIII.  The C version was 0.9 mips.  I am working on PDP10 emulator-@ and successfully booted KS diagnostics tape to the SMMAG prompt.L It uses member pointers (->* or .*) as emulated instruction functions within
 the class.  I Someone is working on KA780 as part of my TS10 (C version) but I have notm" hear any latest word from him yet.   Timr   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:31:06 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>   Subject: RE: TS10, still around?9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEIPIHAA.tom@kednos.com>e  D To write a fast emulator you must either write a state machine or anD efficient table driven interpreter, by the latter I mean a type loopC based on canonical actions, not an interpreter as in an interpretedoD language.  See the book "Engineering a Compiler" by Anklam, Cutler, G et. al.  which describes our TBL, Table Building Language.  This avoidseG procedure calls and runtime calls. C++ only works because computers arehF fast.  It is a poor excuse for a programming language.  Because of itsH heavy use of runtime it is essential an interpreter.  State machines areB harder to extend and maintain. TBL is by its nature extensible and self documenting.i  B If you are serious about writing a real emulator, I might make TBL5 avaialble as a freeware tool.  It is written in PL/I.h     >-----Original Message----- 8 >From: Timothy Stark [mailto:sword7nospam@speakeasy.org]) >Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 4:30 PM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com! >Subject: Re: TS10, still around?6 >t >P >m0 >"Rob Komar" <rkomar@telus.net> wrote in message& >news:u6m7ob.342.ln@robpc2.home.org...
 >> Hi Tim,G >> I'm curious as to why you're doing this.  Just for fun?  Personally,.C >> I would have liked to see performance improved, and I doubt thato* >> moving to C++ will help in that regard. >iK >Yes, I did successfully booted VAX firmware on C++ version and it resulted.G >slightly faster than the C version. On C++ version, it was 1.2 mips onuJ >450mhz PIII.  The C version was 0.9 mips.  I am working on PDP10 emulatorA >and successfully booted KS diagnostics tape to the SMMAG prompt. = >It uses member pointers (->* or .*) as emulated instruction s >functions withinc >the class.  >gJ >Someone is working on KA780 as part of my TS10 (C version) but I have not# >hear any latest word from him yet.  >s >Tim >o >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.d; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).nB >Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/2003 >c ---m& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/2003u   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:17:08 -05002 From: "Timothy Stark" <sword7nospam@speakeasy.org>  Subject: Re: TS10, still around?2 Message-ID: <UIidnaxd1fU7wDWiRTvUqQ@speakeasy.net>  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEIPIHAA.tom@kednos.com...aF > To write a fast emulator you must either write a state machine or anF > efficient table driven interpreter, by the latter I mean a type loopE > based on canonical actions, not an interpreter as in an interpretediE > language.  See the book "Engineering a Compiler" by Anklam, Cutler,cI > et. al.  which describes our TBL, Table Building Language.  This avoidsrI > procedure calls and runtime calls. C++ only works because computers are-H > fast.  It is a poor excuse for a programming language.  Because of itsJ > heavy use of runtime it is essential an interpreter.  State machines areD > harder to extend and maintain. TBL is by its nature extensible and > self documenting.h >oD > If you are serious about writing a real emulator, I might make TBL7 > avaialble as a freeware tool.  It is written in PL/I.R  L Thank you for info about that and will look into that.  Yes, I am interested in that.  Thank you!   Timt   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:59:24 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>e  Subject: RE: TS10, still around?9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEJDIHAA.tom@kednos.com>   7 Didn't mean to criticise personally what you have done, > and I hope you didn't take it that way.  Send me email offlineE and we can continue the dialog, although I am out of action for abouts
 two weeks.   Tomr     >-----Original Message----- 8 >From: Timothy Stark [mailto:sword7nospam@speakeasy.org]) >Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 6:17 PMo >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com! >Subject: Re: TS10, still around?l >h >f >y/ >"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message 4 >news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEIPIHAA.tom@kednos.com...G >> To write a fast emulator you must either write a state machine or anyG >> efficient table driven interpreter, by the latter I mean a type loopoF >> based on canonical actions, not an interpreter as in an interpretedF >> language.  See the book "Engineering a Compiler" by Anklam, Cutler,J >> et. al.  which describes our TBL, Table Building Language.  This avoidsJ >> procedure calls and runtime calls. C++ only works because computers areI >> fast.  It is a poor excuse for a programming language.  Because of itsBK >> heavy use of runtime it is essential an interpreter.  State machines areiE >> harder to extend and maintain. TBL is by its nature extensible and/ >> self documenting. >>E >> If you are serious about writing a real emulator, I might make TBL 8 >> avaialble as a freeware tool.  It is written in PL/I. >aC >Thank you for info about that and will look into that.  Yes, I am e >interestede >in that.  Thank you!a >S >Tim >a >p >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.n; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).yB >Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/2003 >t ---g& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 10/22/2003t   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 00:09:16 GMTe' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net>e+ Subject: Update of 2 Phase SMTP Alternatives+ Message-ID: <3FA8407D.AA054829@pacbell.net>l  E For those still interested, there's a more complete RFC version of myoA alternative e-mail protocol discussed here a few weeks ago - samen location:     ' http://alphase.com/vms/FBEProtocol.htmli   -- a   Have VMS, Will Traveln Wire paladin, San Franciscow   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Nov 2003 14:19:55 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)3 Subject: Re: VMS in pole position in an HP WEB page0< Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0311041419.27ec44d@posting.google.com>  s al5vf03p02@sneakemail.com (William Webb) wrote in message news:<d5ce4b06.0311040642.3d832031@posting.google.com>... ^ > Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> wrote in message news:<3fa75b4b$0$241$636a55ce@news.free.fr>...( > > Scroll to "Platforms and technology"B > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/enterprise/cache/4244-0-0-0-121.aspx > >  > > D. > B > Although I would dearly like to think that the powers-that-be atC > HP have started reading my "please market outside the community"  @ > requests, I'm afraid that in this case I would attribute this A > placement to the vagaries of alphabetization instead of to any a! > deliberate action on HP's part.  >  >   HP OpenVMS systems  y >   Itanium-based  e >   Linux   >   Microsoft Windows   >   NonStop computing   >   UNIX  ,  D Ah, but if you click on the Platforms and Techonologies sign you seeF the same OSes listed again in the same order but UNIX has somehow beenB transformed into HP-UX 11i. You can't give credit to alphabetizing there!   [...]    Alan E. Feldmanu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:06:22 -0800 / From: Greg Cagle <news@removethisgregcagle.com>s- Subject: Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again / Message-ID: <vqfqlaai209g1f@corp.supernews.com>e  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:  > > It is the leading UNIX opetating system supplied by a vendor > whose name starts with an Hc  = "opetating"? Must be some new terminology I'm unaware of 8^).t   -- n
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Nov 2003 12:32:22 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)t- Subject: Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....agains3 Message-ID: <TZyqX7SF7AYl@eisner.encompasserve.org>-   In article <bo8ohr$or5$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: > > > It is the leading UNIX opetating system supplied by a vendor > whose name starts with an HN  C    You'ld still have to define "leading".  HP-UX my lead in HP UNIXrF    sales but Tru64 leads in technology, useability, and manageability.'    IMHO Linux follows Tru64, not HP-UX.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:01:01 -0500c* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>- Subject: Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again ) Message-ID: <3FA7F76B.381B37F5@istop.com>t   John Smith wrote: K > However there is *no excuse* for not mentioning VMS by ANY member of HP's)5 > staff who speaks to the press or industry analysts.l  H While I agree with this statement, consider that perhaps the article wasM written by some journalist who essentially took the press release and removedrF some of the fluff from it, then called HP for comments and asked a fewL specific questions. The HP rep wouldn't have had a chance to talk about VMS, NSK etc.  N The original press release did mention VMS, albeit not in a very powerful way.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:22:42 -0500r* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>- Subject: Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again ) Message-ID: <3FA7FC7F.65AC1237@istop.com>   ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:B > HP's itanium ISV web site contains loads of ringing endorsementsA > for Itanium/HP but very little deliverable product and where it > > is available its mostly development tools and HPC type apps.  H In fairness, one has to give time for all those applications to start toN appear.  On the other hand, until customers actually see an advanateg going toM that IA64 thing, ISVs will continue to target the more popular platforms such O as Pa Risc and Alpha with that IA64 thing seen just as a pilot project for now.i  L When you switch to an inferior platform, it takes a lot more time before itsH performance becomes interesting compared to your good old platform whose development was stoppped.-  I Will Carly's image be able to survive the test of time, or will something-K drastic have to be done because IA64 sales won't pickup for a long time (byp  current industry expectations) ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 03:42:15 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>S- Subject: Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again K Message-ID: <rk_pb.186399$3f.62159@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>    JF Mezei wrote:e* > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:C >> HP's itanium ISV web site contains loads of ringing endorsements.B >> for Itanium/HP but very little deliverable product and where it? >> is available its mostly development tools and HPC type apps.r >gG > In fairness, one has to give time for all those applications to start @ > to appear.  On the other hand, until customers actually see anF > advanateg going to that IA64 thing, ISVs will continue to target theG > more popular platforms such as Pa Risc and Alpha with that IA64 thing ' > seen just as a pilot project for now.s >sC > When you switch to an inferior platform, it takes a lot more time F > before its performance becomes interesting compared to your good old* > platform whose development was stoppped. > A > Will Carly's image be able to survive the test of time, or will(G > something drastic have to be done because IA64 sales won't pickup forh2 > a long time (by current industry expectations) ?    H Carly will be canned, and Mike "I Love Windows" Capellas will be brought< back to 'save' HP from the scourage of enterprise computing.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 00:24:02 -0500* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>- Subject: Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again/2 Message-ID: <wtadncOPbu7rFDWiRVn-uw@metrocast.net>  7 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message # news:3FA7FC7F.65AC1237@istop.com...s   ...1  8 > Will Carly's image be able to survive the test of time  I Carly's image ain't all that great right now.  And prospects for anythingD" but further degradation seem slim.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:11:43 -05002* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>- Subject: Re: VMS not mentioned by HP....again ) Message-ID: <3FA8946E.AD2C9D91@istop.com>.   Bill Todd wrote:: > > Will Carly's image be able to survive the test of time > K > Carly's image ain't all that great right now.  And prospects for anythingI$ > but further degradation seem slim.  M To you, Carly may not have a great image, but to the media, she is still in aoL honeymoon phase and still seen as a great star. And it is hard to "demote" aM star, especially what is tantamount to the firrst lady of the business world.o  N Curly may have been praised , but that was just to be polite, everyone knew he= wasn't CEO material, except for desperate bankrupt companies.I  N And now that it is clear that Carly has reached her "Peter's Principle", it isJ doubtful that a bigger company would try to lure her. And without an offerB tantamount to a promotion, Carly isn't likely to leave on her own.  N It woudl take a corporate raider to cause a raucus and force her out in a very ugly fight.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:45:11 -0500E* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>> Subject: Re: X file selection dialog: display file name only ?) Message-ID: <3FA7F3B6.30B7985D@istop.com>+   Martin Kirby wrote:m > F > There are callback procedures you can use to override the finding of > the files.  M I was hoping it would just be some argument I could add to affect the display:L :-) Also, I realised that when one clicks on a file, it is probably just theK element from the file list that is sent back to the callback to provide thehL program with the selected file, and I would presume that if it weren't fullyK qualified, the program wouldn't really know the full file spec, unless moreeK callbacks were put in to reassemble a full spec from the directory list anda the file list.  C > The standard file search proc passes on the wild-card part of theiB > filter specification to lib$find_file so, I assume, can't handle > multiple types.p  ) Thanks.  I'll know not to hope for this !b  D > If you remove the directory part you may like to consider what youF > will do for search-lists and wild-card directories as in those cases6 > the directory spec distingushes between found files.  H Correct.  I guess those full file specifications are there for a reason.   Thanks for the information.I   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Nov 2003 20:19:09 GMTt, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)$ Subject: Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?: Message-ID: <bo91js$1c2grs$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>  ) In article <3FA7F267.3D4E120E@istop.com>,t- 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:e > Didier Morandi wrote:t >> a@ >> For professional purposes, which one is the best one and why? > N > For international shipments, FedEx if you don't want to hurt your customers. > O > UPS, at least for shipments to Canada, hands the package over to some highwayaM > robbery firm (customs broker) who will charge you a random "processing fee">P > ranging from $10 to $50 for the privilege of collecting a few dollars worth ofL > tax. The problem is that you don't know the amount until a couple of weeksP > after you have received and signed for the package. The only way  is to refuseK > delivery of any UPS shipment (except envelopes which don't go through thee% > highway robbery firm, PBB Brokers).n > P > Fed Ex has its own customs brokers around the world and the cost of processingO > customs is included in the cost paid by the sender. So the receiver only paysgO > the actual tax due, and that amount is known at delivery time before you sign. > for the package. > O > DHL is very popular outside north america. But I have not been impressed withr& > them receiving stuff here in canada.  L Sorry JF, but this sounds more like a Canada problem than a shipper problem.H I regularly get car parts (and sometime computer parts) from England andH have never had any of these problems with Customs.  I also find UPS from, England to be the fastest and most reliable.   > L > Best bet would be to talk to your customer and ask them which one they are > comfortable with.g  F Hmmmmm..... Listen to the customer.  Now there's a revolutionary idea.   bill   -- nJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   g   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:39:36 -0500S* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>$ Subject: Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?) Message-ID: <3FA7F267.3D4E120E@istop.com>u   Didier Morandi wrote:h > ? > For professional purposes, which one is the best one and why?s  L For international shipments, FedEx if you don't want to hurt your customers.  M UPS, at least for shipments to Canada, hands the package over to some highway.K robbery firm (customs broker) who will charge you a random "processing fee" N ranging from $10 to $50 for the privilege of collecting a few dollars worth ofJ tax. The problem is that you don't know the amount until a couple of weeksN after you have received and signed for the package. The only way  is to refuseI delivery of any UPS shipment (except envelopes which don't go through thes# highway robbery firm, PBB Brokers).2  N Fed Ex has its own customs brokers around the world and the cost of processingM customs is included in the cost paid by the sender. So the receiver only pays2M the actual tax due, and that amount is known at delivery time before you sign  for the package.  M DHL is very popular outside north america. But I have not been impressed withh$ them receiving stuff here in canada.  J Best bet would be to talk to your customer and ask them which one they are comfortable with.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:07:40 -0500p* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>$ Subject: Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?) Message-ID: <3FA7F8F9.3985B52F@istop.com>a   Larry Kilgallen wrote:E > I used the FedEx Ship for many years, until they went Windows-only.-  % OK, lets make this not so OT anymore.   L For large companies that generate hundreds of not thousands of shipments perI day, is it possible to get specs from FedEx and others on how to generate0P waybills and what transaction format to send to them to register that shipment ?  M Or must one absolutely positively have to use some wintel box to somehow loadaK from your mainframe thousands of waybills and have the windows box manuallyp generate all the stuff ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:23:26 -0500-* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>$ Subject: Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?) Message-ID: <3FA818C3.A9C07F3E@istop.com>(   Bill Gunshannon wrote:N > Sorry JF, but this sounds more like a Canada problem than a shipper problem.J > I regularly get car parts (and sometime computer parts) from England and5 > have never had any of these problems with Customs.    M Perhaps because the only service UPS offers TO the united states is one whichoR include brokerage so you don't, as a recipient, have to deal with customs brokers.  I But I know that UPS has services to Canada and other nations from the USASL which do not include brokerage and you are stuck with some invoice you never authorized.   G This one example is sufficient to warrant any sender inquiring from UPSr> exactly what is involved for the recipient with their service.  I Note that FedEx now has ground to canada which does NOT include brokeragep. fees. So one has to be weary of those as well.  F Ironic that those customs brokerage firms continue to exist by milking: customers even though there aren't any customs to collect.  J When having stuff shipped to me from USA, I now insist they use regular USM Postal Service. When it arrives in Canada, it is treated by Canada Post which 3 doesn't rip me off like PBB does for UPS shipments.b  L Note that US Postal Service's Express Mail is to be avoided since it arrivesN in Canada via Express Airborne which unfortunatly sends the stuff through PBB.- It has to be just regular mail (parcel post).v   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:40:55 -0500& From: "Island" <dbturner@islandco.com>$ Subject: Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?/ Message-ID: <vqg7ea9ihj7kbf@news.supernews.com>e   Didier  , We ship every day International and domestic  9 Out of our experiences, Fedex is the only one we use now.a  In 5 years we have had one claim  L If you are shipping stuff to the USA from France or UK it normally gets here by 9:00am the next morning   David-   --   David B Turner Island Computers US CorporationF 2700 Gregory St., Suite 180. Savannah GA 31404O Tel: 912 447 6622m Fax: 912 201 0402D Email: dbturner@hpaq.net http://www.hpaq.nets        / "Didier Morandi" <no@spam.com> wrote in message , news:3fa784e1$0$243$636a55ce@news.free.fr...? > For professional purposes, which one is the best one and why?b >  > D. >u   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:43:22 -0500& From: "Island" <dbturner@islandco.com>$ Subject: Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?/ Message-ID: <vqg7j48e61fv3f@news.supernews.com>.   fyih  G Fedex now does internet-ship which is a java based setup and works veryu well.  Linux Unix Windows MAC etcE VMS - I don't see why not if you have a barcode capable laser printer    dt    7 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message # news:3FA7F267.3D4E120E@istop.com...s > Didier Morandi wrote:a > > A > > For professional purposes, which one is the best one and why?t >eC > For international shipments, FedEx if you don't want to hurt youro
 customers. > G > UPS, at least for shipments to Canada, hands the package over to somen highwaywH > robbery firm (customs broker) who will charge you a random "processing fee"G > ranging from $10 to $50 for the privilege of collecting a few dollarso worth ofL > tax. The problem is that you don't know the amount until a couple of weeksI > after you have received and signed for the package. The only way  is to- refuseK > delivery of any UPS shipment (except envelopes which don't go through thee% > highway robbery firm, PBB Brokers).p > E > Fed Ex has its own customs brokers around the world and the cost ofr
 processingJ > customs is included in the cost paid by the sender. So the receiver only paysJ > the actual tax due, and that amount is known at delivery time before you sign > for the package. >sJ > DHL is very popular outside north america. But I have not been impressed with& > them receiving stuff here in canada. > L > Best bet would be to talk to your customer and ask them which one they are > comfortable with.l   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 03:37:11 GMTa# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>i$ Subject: Re: [OT] FedEx, UPS or DHL?L Message-ID: <Hf_pb.186382$3f.152236@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:+ > In article <3FA7F267.3D4E120E@istop.com>, . > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes: >> Didier Morandi wrote: >>>oA >>> For professional purposes, which one is the best one and why?r >>D >> For international shipments, FedEx if you don't want to hurt your
 >> customers.f >>C >> UPS, at least for shipments to Canada, hands the package over topC >> some highway robbery firm (customs broker) who will charge you a,G >> random "processing fee" ranging from $10 to $50 for the privilege ofmG >> collecting a few dollars worth of tax. The problem is that you don't3F >> know the amount until a couple of weeks after you have received andE >> signed for the package. The only way  is to refuse delivery of anycD >> UPS shipment (except envelopes which don't go through the highway >> robbery firm, PBB Brokers). >>F >> Fed Ex has its own customs brokers around the world and the cost ofD >> processing customs is included in the cost paid by the sender. SoF >> the receiver only pays the actual tax due, and that amount is known4 >> at delivery time before you sign for the package. >>A >> DHL is very popular outside north america. But I have not beenm6 >> impressed with them receiving stuff here in canada. >sE > Sorry JF, but this sounds more like a Canada problem than a shipperuG > problem. I regularly get car parts (and sometime computer parts) fromeC > England and have never had any of these problems with Customs.  IaA > also find UPS from England to be the fastest and most reliable.i >. >>D >> Best bet would be to talk to your customer and ask them which one >> they are comfortable with.x >iH > Hmmmmm..... Listen to the customer.  Now there's a revolutionary idea.   I'll bring the tea!! ;-)e   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.613 ************************