1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 19 Nov 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 641       Contents: Re: 7.3-2 CD available early? # <CR><LF> Not in FTP Transfered File ' Re: <CR><LF> Not in FTP Transfered File ' Re: <CR><LF> Not in FTP Transfered File ' Re: <CR><LF> Not in FTP Transfered File , Re: alpha box and licence too? - SuggestionsP Re: argentic vs digital pictures technology (was: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary) sumP Re: argentic vs digital pictures technology (was: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary) sumP Re: argentic vs digital pictures technology (was: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary) sum- bug or feature: SET OUTPUT_RATE forces output 1 Re: bug or feature: SET OUTPUT_RATE forces output 1 Re: bug or feature: SET OUTPUT_RATE forces output 1 Re: bug or feature: SET OUTPUT_RATE forces output 8 Re: DCL Enhancements: Error messages for OPEN and DEFINE8 Re: DCL Enhancements: Error messages for OPEN and DEFINE8 Re: DCL Enhancements: Error messages for OPEN and DEFINE RE: EV79 CANCELED !!!!!!!!!  Re: EV79 CANCELED !!!!!!!!! , Re: Fonts for printing from a decwindows app) Re: Hobbyist license and layered products ) Re: Hobbyist license and layered products ) Re: Hobbyist license and layered products P Re: How to retrieve ip address of a reflection client box running a OpenVMS serv Re: IA64 TPC results Re: IA64 TPC results Re: IA64 TPC results Re: IA64 TPC results inquirer mouth in foot?  Re: inquirer mouth in foot?  Re: inquirer mouth in foot? 3 Re: Installing Pathworks on a PC: no licence server 3 Re: Installing Pathworks on a PC: no licence server P Re: Mayor of London says JF Mezei is 'greatest threat to life on plane planeplan5 Re: New maynagement software Nimbus also for OpenVMS? 0 OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate4 Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate4 Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate4 Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate4 Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate4 Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate4 Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate4 Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate4 Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate Re: PHP Apache Re: PHP Apache Re: Printer problem  Printer problem  Re: Printer problem  Question re VMS::IndexedFile  Re: Question re VMS::IndexedFile Re: raid 5 OpenVMS VAX hobbyist  Re: raid 5 OpenVMS VAX hobbyist 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday  Re: The old DEC complex. Re: The old DEC complex. Re: The old DEC complex. Re: The VMS Quilt  Re: The VMS Quilt  Re: The VMS Quilt  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  RE: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary  Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary   Re: VMS Defragmentation Software* Re: [OT] Mac OS X: system folder not found& [OT] Mac OS X: system folder not found* Re: [OT] Mac OS X: system folder not found  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:39:21 GMT 6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)& Subject: Re: 7.3-2 CD available early?2 Message-ID: <dkwub.153086$W7.94962@news.chello.at>  S In article <bpbrl6$t7l@library2.airnews.net>, "Hal Kuff" <kuff@comcast.net> writes: M >    Does anyone know when early release would be on 7.3-2 .... we would like % >to do upgrades over the holidays....   6 Which holidays ? Newyear ? No problem then, I suppose.  K If you want to do earlier upgrades, you need to be a (former) OpenVMS 7.3-2  betatester or know one ;-)   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 16:19:12 -08000 From: csmithson@washoehealth.com (Chip Smithson), Subject: <CR><LF> Not in FTP Transfered File= Message-ID: <4f4fc7d2.0311181619.46fedd83@posting.google.com>   B We have created a file on our OpenVMS system with <CR> yet viewingD them with our FTP client and bringing them locally the <CR> does notC appear in file. It was working fine until a few days ago, and there D have been no major OS or file system changes.Any thoughts? Have been% playing with set file/attributes=???. A Nothing has changed with regards to the FTP file though. Still no ' carriage returns. Just one long record.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 01:11:36 GMT ' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> 0 Subject: Re: <CR><LF> Not in FTP Transfered File+ Message-ID: <3FBAC40D.69BEC434@pacbell.net>    Chip Smithson wrote: > D > We have created a file on our OpenVMS system with <CR> yet viewingF > them with our FTP client and bringing them locally the <CR> does notE > appear in file. It was working fine until a few days ago, and there F > have been no major OS or file system changes.Any thoughts? Have been' > playing with set file/attributes=???. C > Nothing has changed with regards to the FTP file though. Still no ) > carriage returns. Just one long record.   C Just to be clear. You created a file on VMS with these attributes : A 	Organization: SEQ   RecordFormat: VAR       RecordAttributes: CR   E then you ftp'd the file to another system (not VMS) and tried to view  the file there?    --     Have VMS, Will Travel  Wire paladin, San Francisco    (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:06:15 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>0 Subject: Re: <CR><LF> Not in FTP Transfered File) Message-ID: <3FBAC1F5.9FAD842E@istop.com>    Chip Smithson wrote:C > Nothing has changed with regards to the FTP file though. Still no ) > carriage returns. Just one long record.   ' a DIR/FULL on the file would be needed.   ? Also, does FTP transfer the file in text or image/binary mode ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:28:52 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 0 Subject: Re: <CR><LF> Not in FTP Transfered File' Message-ID: <3FBAF184.4AE46B2D@fsi.net>    Don Sykes wrote: >  > Chip Smithson wrote: > > F > > We have created a file on our OpenVMS system with <CR> yet viewingH > > them with our FTP client and bringing them locally the <CR> does notG > > appear in file. It was working fine until a few days ago, and there H > > have been no major OS or file system changes.Any thoughts? Have been) > > playing with set file/attributes=???. E > > Nothing has changed with regards to the FTP file though. Still no + > > carriage returns. Just one long record.  > E > Just to be clear. You created a file on VMS with these attributes : J >         Organization: SEQ   RecordFormat: VAR       RecordAttributes: CR   I'd have expected you to say:   E Organization: SEQ   RecordFormat: Stream       RecordAttributes: None   G ...as that is what I assumed the OP intended.  What he's getting is, of  course, another question.    Chip:   B Were there any changes to any of the intermediate systems (even a  reboot)?   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:08:42 -0500 2 From: David Jennings <david.jennings3@comcast.net>5 Subject: Re: alpha box and licence too? - Suggestions 8 Message-ID: <ba2lrvg2vmbhusmcbquqahs9i98drseddr@4ax.com>  D I've got a Personal Workstation 433a that I converted to run VMS theD day that Microsoft/DEC killed NT on Alpha.  Never bothered getting aE graphics card that VMS supported so I run it headless.  Recently, the D RZ23 system disk died, but I was able to get a 18 GB Seagate CheetahA from some used computer outlet for $20!   Now it runs better than  ever.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:25:22 -0600 5 From: "Martin P.J. Zinser" <zinser@zinser.no-ip.info> Y Subject: Re: argentic vs digital pictures technology (was: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary) sum : Message-ID: <bperbp$1meqqa$1@ID-209632.news.uni-berlin.de>   Hi Didier, hi Norm,   G I do not know why you refer to the silver in films in the past. If you  G do buy a b&w film today (not too difficult) it is still based on silver E halogenides. Back when I was in school we did "mine" the silver from    used photo processing chemicals.  H As for Digital SLRs. Yupp, I know they do exist, but either you have to G earn much more money than I or to be at least a semi-pro to invest the  . money needed to buy one of these right now ;-)   Greetings, Martin   F P.S. I did know about the french roots of photographie, but not about $ your personal involvement Didier ,-) norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: K > SLR = Single Lens Reflex, a camera where the viewfinder looks through the 	 > lens to  > avoid parallax problems. > ( > I believe a Digital Camera Can be SLR. > < > From:  Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> on 11/18/2003 03:03 AM > 0 > Please respond to Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> >  >  >  > To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > cc:  > M > Subject:    argentic vs digital pictures technology (was: VMS 2003 bootcamp  >        summary)  >  >  > Martin P.J. Zinser wrote:  >  > C >>P.S. I do intend to edit a SLR to Digi cam newsletter around this  >>timeframe ,-)  >  >  > :-)  >  > SLR? Super Lens Receiver??? H > We say "silver process camera" over here ("argentique" vs "numrique") >  > D. > F > PS: do you all know why we use "silver" when talking about "regular"
 > picturesL > processing? Because the first b&w films, which were actually glass plates,A > invented in France in 1822 by Niepce and Daguerre, were made of  > gelatino-bromureM > d'argent (silver brome gelatine?). On the other hand, the very first colour L > plates were coated with potatoe stuff ("fcule" in French). I know because > the L > colour pictures technology has been invented by Auguste and Louis Lumire, > alsoJ > inventors of the Cinema in 1895, and Auguste is my grand grand father... > (don't( > congrat me, I did nothing for that :-) >  >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:54:32 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> Y Subject: Re: argentic vs digital pictures technology (was: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary) sum & Message-ID: <3FBAE978.63B4B35@fsi.net>   Didier Morandi wrote:  >  > Martin P.J. Zinser wrote:  > E > > P.S. I do intend to edit a SLR to Digi cam newsletter around this  > > timeframe ,-)  >  > :-)  >  > SLR? Super Lens Receiver???   H In English, Single Lens Reflex - uses prisms to provide through-the-lens* view-finding prior to opening the shutter.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:07:01 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>Y Subject: Re: argentic vs digital pictures technology (was: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary) sum ) Message-ID: <3FBAEC48.DDED6D62@istop.com>    "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > > SLR? Super Lens Receiver???  > J > In English, Single Lens Reflex - uses prisms to provide through-the-lens, > view-finding prior to opening the shutter.  G Actually, it is mirrors. Prior to the shutter opening, the mirror lifts - allowing light to go straight to the shutter.    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:06:07 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)6 Subject: bug or feature: SET OUTPUT_RATE forces output$ Message-ID: <bpdu3e$kag$1@online.de>  E Is it a bug or feature that SET OUTPUT_RATE causes output when it is  H executed?  If the new value is LESS than the old value, then this would 3 make sense, but not (in my view) if it is the same.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:32:52 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) : Subject: Re: bug or feature: SET OUTPUT_RATE forces output2 Message-ID: <Ulvub.9264$cN5.8367@news.cpqcorp.net>  w In article <bpdu3e$kag$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: F :Is it a bug or feature that SET OUTPUT_RATE causes output when it is I :executed?  If the new value is LESS than the old value, then this would  4 :make sense, but not (in my view) if it is the same.  C   My intermittent windshield wipers reset their cycle when I adjust    the frequency.    ,   As for the case at hand, why special-case?    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 18:40:40 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman): Subject: Re: bug or feature: SET OUTPUT_RATE forces output= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0311181840.34ede34a@posting.google.com>   | helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote in message news:<bpdu3e$kag$1@online.de>...G > Is it a bug or feature that SET OUTPUT_RATE causes output when it is  J > executed?  If the new value is LESS than the old value, then this would 5 > make sense, but not (in my view) if it is the same.   E Wow. How many times do you change the rate in a single batch job? Why * is it bad if there is an extra data flush?   Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 06:05:10 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply): Subject: Re: bug or feature: SET OUTPUT_RATE forces output$ Message-ID: <bpf16m$q8t$1@online.de>  = In article <b096a4ee.0311181840.34ede34a@posting.google.com>, 1 spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:    ~ > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote in message news:<bpdu3e$kag$1@online.de>...I > > Is it a bug or feature that SET OUTPUT_RATE causes output when it is  L > > executed?  If the new value is LESS than the old value, then this would 7 > > make sense, but not (in my view) if it is the same.  > G > Wow. How many times do you change the rate in a single batch job? Why , > is it bad if there is an extra data flush?  9 I was experimenting with the following idea: save all the E characteristics at the beginning of a procedure and reset them at the < end.  This takes care of the case that something was set andG unintentionally not reset during the procedure, and makes the code less G cluttered if it doesn't need to be reset during the procedure.  (Hence  H my recent post saying that it would be nice to save all characteristics G in one fell swoop and likewise reset them.)  JF suggested SPAWNing the  H procedure, since that would automatically reset most stuff, but what it C won't reset are terminal characteristics, which are quite numerous.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:15:21 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> A Subject: Re: DCL Enhancements: Error messages for OPEN and DEFINE ' Message-ID: <3FBAEE59.44073ED4@fsi.net>    jlsue wrote: > [snip]F > Making it a default that is incorrect just to maintain compatibility > doesn't make sense imho.  F No, it doesn't really "make sense" from a logical, purist perspective.  ? My comment was intended to suggest an enhancement that would be D synergistically compatible with the existing code base yet offer theE flexibility to build into new code the functionality being requested.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 22:23:25 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) A Subject: Re: DCL Enhancements: Error messages for OPEN and DEFINE 3 Message-ID: <JPN$iXZNviP3@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <bofkrvo5eqvthu0ebfma4jblvq8201prfu@4ax.com>, jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> writes: L > As long as the change is properly documented in the release notes, I thinkK > making it a warning message to use open on a "logical" already associated ) > with an open file makes loads of sense.  > M > The argument that it may break some code isn't always valid, imho, when the M > current action is uninformative and should cause an error to be more clear.  > I > When DCL command procedures began requiring "$" at the beginning of the I > line, it broke some programs as well.  However it was still seen as the G > correct thing to do because that is the proper way for it to operate.   G But starting with a dollar sign had always been documented as required.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:46:23 +0100 ( From: "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de>A Subject: Re: DCL Enhancements: Error messages for OPEN and DEFINE : Message-ID: <MCELKPMOKPMNDNKJNIONGEAICGAA.win@fom.fgan.de>   Hello,   Didier Morandi wrotes:   >>> ; A experimented DCL programmer may code *all* open that way:    $../.. $ close/nolog in_file  $ open/read in_file my_file  $../.. $ close in_file   C This is what experience of *many* thousand of DCL coding taught me.  <<<   K Sorry about my stupid question: will this not produce an error messsage (or + warning) if the the file is already closed?    Best regards Rudolf Wingert    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:08:20 -0600 / From: "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> $ Subject: RE: EV79 CANCELED !!!!!!!!!T Message-ID: <92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC110530D6@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us>  I An Alpha based supercomputer still beats the Itanium. However, so does an C NEC, and a G5, and we do not see anything from Sun until number 63.   # http://www.top500.org/list/2003/11/    EdE **Please apply a generous amount of all the usual disclaimers here.**      -----Original Message-----9 From: peter@langstoeger.at [mailto:peter@langstoeger.at]  ( Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 12:36 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com $ Subject: Re: EV79 CANCELED !!!!!!!!!    > In article <9imhrvcu0g61v0otm7o3jd8btuhl9fq6ma@4ax.com>, jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> writes:1 >On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:30:48 -0500, "Bill Todd"    ><billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: > B >>Time to take a slightly closer look at some of this revisionist 
 >>history: > G >Still the same old song from you Bill.  It must be nice to be able to  5 >call all the shots from the safety of your armchair.   ' At least he brings URLs for his theory. L And I must also admit, believing him had fewer downsides than believing HPQ.   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:38:49 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>$ Subject: Re: EV79 CANCELED !!!!!!!!!) Message-ID: <3FBA8358.8F53E5C1@istop.com>    jlsue wrote:J > The business managers who have the actual responsibility for the companyI > (i.e., not the armchair managers), have to decide what investments will  > bring them the best return.   H In IT, it isn't the only metric. Because things change, managers have toC choose a platform that will endure time and won't require expensive N conversions. And for this, they will choose a system which is on solid ground.J Right now, VMS is not on solid ground, not only because HP hasn't assertedM onwership and growth intentions for VMS, but also because IA64 isn't on solid J ground. It *may* one day prove itself, but right now, IA64 isn't somethingH people want and with rumours of intel 64 bit 8086, its future is cloudy.  N And because HP has lied and broken its "commitments" in the past, the promises7 by HP of bright days ahead for IA64 cannot be believed.     + > This in a business environment where most I > companies are trying to consoldiate all their product lines and improve $ > efficiencies.  HP is no different.  N Before Compaq bought Digital. Pfeiffer asked Palmer to sell off as many of the unwanted assets as possible.  L Before HP bought Compaq, it should have told Compaq to get rid of that peskyK Digital heritage and sell it to someone else. If HP was going after product N consolidation, they sure went about it the wrong way in acquiring the remnants of Digital and Tandem.  K Secondly, consolidation by itself isn't evil. But one must choose the right L platform to consolidate on. HP and Compaq made premature announcements aboutJ IA64, probably made more to help intel than to help themselves.  HP shoudlR think about its customers and its shareholders before helping intel and microsoft.  K > The change from EV79 to EV7z is nothing, really - the commitment was to a K > performance boost to provide a platform to our customers that can be used 5 > for a long while, and that's what they're getting.    K Exactly it is nothing. They admitted the chip was already capable of higher 2 speeds, so they will *allow* those higher speeds.   M Tell me, if HP had committed to "speed boost", and they delivered by boosting K the EV7 speed by 1 hertz, how would you have felt ? Technically, they would   have delivered on their promise.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:19:41 +0100 ? From: Roland Mainz <roland.mainz@informatik.med.uni-giessen.de> 5 Subject: Re: Fonts for printing from a decwindows app = Message-ID: <3FBAA90D.BB7CEFDC@informatik.med.uni-giessen.de>    Fred Kleinsorge wrote:J > > > Yep.  And it is about to get worse with the Alpha version getting an
 > upgrade, > > > but not the VAX one. > > ? > > Uhm... why ? Forcing user to switch over to Alpha or what ?  > J > JF just likes to spout off.  The Alpha X11 bits (Xlib/Xt/transport) wereM > brought up to X11R6.6 and things like kerberos were added to the transport. G > Why?  New things like JAVA and eBusiness needed some of the features.   @ Does the upgrade include the libXp.so (X print extension) shared library, too ?   ----   Bye, Roland   --     __ .  . __8  (o.\ \/ /.o) Roland.Mainz@informatik.med.uni-giessen.de<   \__\/\/__/  MPEG specialist, C&&JAVA&&Sun&&Unix programmer5   /O /==\ O\  TEL +49 2426 901568 FAX +49 2426 901569 
  (;O/ \/ \O;)    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 11:51:08 -08003 From: robert_dirosario@yahoo.com (Robert DiRosario) 2 Subject: Re: Hobbyist license and layered products= Message-ID: <c83a2a1e.0311181151.104847de@posting.google.com>   ] Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> wrote in message news:<3fb9d742$0$2781$626a54ce@news.free.fr>...  > slaX0r wrote:  > M > > Okay, I got my hobbyist license, and the Hobbyist kit from Montagar, and  L > > it's working great. My question to the group is, where/how do I get the F > > other products that I'm licensed for, but are not included on the @ > > Montagar CD? Specifically I'm interested in COBOL and Notes. > 6 > Here: http://www1.aclabs.com/MasterIndex/splvv.shtml > O > However, you will not find Notes. It has been removed by HP from the library  R > (ten years old). I intend to build a repository for "removed" software which is S > of interest for VMS hobbyists and which would not be on the Freeware CDs for any  	 > reason.  > F > If you are an Alpha hobbyist, the layered products library is there:0 > http://www1.aclabs.com/MasterIndex/splva.shtml6 > (follow instructions to get a user/pwd for download) > @ > The Alpha Notes distrib, as I posted early, may be found here: > http://blagnac.dyndns.org/ >  > Meilleurs regards, >  > D.  E Will you include old versions of VMS in the repository?  I would love F to get a "vintage" version of VMS for my vintage hardware.  (A versionF of 5.x that will fit on an RD54 with C and FORTRAN and run on a VS2000! or uVax II or VAXStation II/GPX.)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:42:03 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>2 Subject: Re: Hobbyist license and layered products, Message-ID: <3FBA4BDB.7030509@tsoft-inc.com>   healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:  $ > slaX0r <slaX0r@example.com> wrote: > K >>Okay, I got my hobbyist license, and the Hobbyist kit from Montagar, and  J >>it's working great. My question to the group is, where/how do I get the D >>other products that I'm licensed for, but are not included on the > >>Montagar CD? Specifically I'm interested in COBOL and Notes. >> > 2 >>Any help for this newbie is greatly appreciated! >>slaX0r >> > E > You either find someone at HP that will take your money (it costs a I > lot), and buy a set of Layered Products CD's, or you go the eBay route.  > 	 > 			Zane  >   F You can also borrow someone else's CDs.  Or get a copy of the desired $ directories from someone else's CDs.   Where are you located?   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:58:47 +0100 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>2 Subject: Re: Hobbyist license and layered products4 Message-ID: <3fba961a$0$13284$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   Robert DiRosario wrote: G > Will you include old versions of VMS in the repository?  I would love H > to get a "vintage" version of VMS for my vintage hardware.  (A versionH > of 5.x that will fit on an RD54 with C and FORTRAN and run on a VS2000# > or uVax II or VAXStation II/GPX.)   I Course I will. The idea is to make available all software running on all  8 kind of VMS powered boxes, such like this site for Mac :  > http://www.grenier-du-mac.net/index.htm  (the Macintosh attic)   Sorry it is in French.   D.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 13:26:44 -0800% From: whohe@whoever.com (DL Phillips) Y Subject: Re: How to retrieve ip address of a reflection client box running a OpenVMS serv = Message-ID: <af0dc2ea.0311181326.72d0cb6c@posting.google.com>    various replies said: k >debanjany@yahoo.com (Debanjan) wrote in message >news:<31c3f4c3.0311172200.53393431@posting.google.com>...  >> My scenarios is like this -  F >> I am running an OpenVMS application and putting up the front-end on a E >> client pc through reflection terminal emulator. I want to retrieve  the F >> ip address of the client pc box from within the application running on >> OpenVMS server. >>  F >> Is there any system call I can use on OpenVMS to get this info from >> the process related data? >>   >> thanks for the help.  >> <snips & merges> >...TT_ACCPORNAM...   E However, the computer's Name rather than IP address might be returned F (depending on the stack & DNS or Host tables setup). SHOW/TERM or SHOW4 USERS/FULL will show you what ACCPORNAM will return.    DL Phillips   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:36:13 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: IA64 TPC results , Message-ID: <3FBA4A7D.4080605@tsoft-inc.com>   Rob Young wrote:  l > In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-QQYHsOorgdRu@localhost>, "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> writes: >  > F >>I was in our main computing room yesterday. Hadn't been there for a H >>while; the cluster I work on is a separate entity. The last time I hadH >>a good look, it was full of DEC and or Digital stuff running VMS. The H >>main office application was once All-in-1. Now the office stuff is on H >>W2K and most of the DEC machines have been replaced by things with SunC >>emblazoned on them. So Fred and Rob  can spin away . They may be   >>slow(er) but the  H >>Sun's are still replacing DEC/Digital/HP kit in my real (engineering) F >>world. It is driven mainly by the applications the projects believe  >>they need. >> >> > > > 	That's your small world.  In my small world, the datacenter= > 	has a few hundred servers , mostly W2K.  Important things, A > 	they run mostly on AIX and VMS.  There are literally a handful B > 	of Sun servers about (5?).  But Sun has little chance of making? > 	any head-way here.  Sun makes little sense.  Far slower than B > 	Power and when pricing out Oracle you are charged per-cpu, many@ > 	other apps are charged per-CPU.  Folks may have a love affairA > 	with Sun kit but becaues of their uncompetitive slowness, they  > 	are hamstrung.  > @ > 	But really, if Sun was going anywhere you wouldn't be reading > 	things like this: > , > http://news.com.com/2100-1010-5069581.html > K > IBM extended its lead in the server market in the second quarter of 2003, M > stealing a sizable slice of the worldwide market for the powerful computers 1 > away from Sun Microsystems, a new study shows.   > N > Sales of IBM servers increased 10.1 percent to $3.2 billion, giving Big BlueP > 30.4 percent of the $10.6 billion market, according to new figures released byL > market share researcher IDC. Third-ranked Sun Microsystems, meanwhile, saw- > revenue fall 18.7 percent to $1.4 billion.   >  > @ > 	Oh... and it really isn't spinning.  Sun has been sliding off? > 	to irrelevance for over 2 years and their revenues and share ( > 	price reflect that.  Facts, not spin. > 	 > 				Rob     K In your haste to pick on Sun I think you miss what Dave is saying from the  Q perspective of VMS.  You mention AIX and VMS.  What's the mix between those two?  O   What's the likelyhood that most new purchases will be AIX?  To a VMS person,  M whether the loss is to Sun or IBM, it's still a loss.  While Sun may have an  E issue with performance, at least for those who place a high value on  O performance, IBM still retains leading edge performance, and their service has  N always been good to exceptional, and when they say something they are trusted  and listened to.  N So at one site Sun is replacing VMS because of applications.  At another site P AIX is replacing VMS for whatever their reasons are.  What I don't see is sites T replacing whatever with VMS.  Hell, I'd be happy with sites just remaining with VMS.   Dave     --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:26:47 -0000 4 From: "Chris Casey" <chris.caseyNOSPAM@ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: IA64 TPC results ? Message-ID: <YUxub.2575$4Y6.2186@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net>   3 "jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message 2 news:apdkrvof0qrqc0v2gn51hvq917fel8ub7h@4ax.com...J > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:00:40 -0500, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> > wrote: >  > >jlsue wrote: L > Now you're bordering on a complete lie.  #1, the promises of a future bumpI > in performance, with EV79 as the target, is not broken.  It's just in a H > different form than originally expected.  It's still delivering on the! > promise of a performance boost.   K This is absolute garbage. To say that what is being delivered is simply the I same but different is as near the truth as you seem to get i.e. it is the  truth, just repackaged.   I I know I haven't posted on here for a long time but just who are you? You H sound like you speak for HP so are you here in an official capacity? YouK appear to be speak like a relation of a certain Sun salesman who posts here J frequently but from the other side and without the courtesy of an official title.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:32:20 -0600e1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>i Subject: Re: IA64 TPC results>' Message-ID: <3FBAE444.D069E2C5@fsi.net>>   Chris Casey wrote: > 5 > "jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in messagel4 > news:apdkrvof0qrqc0v2gn51hvq917fel8ub7h@4ax.com...L > > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:00:40 -0500, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>
 > > wrote: > >t > > >jlsue wrote:sN > > Now you're bordering on a complete lie.  #1, the promises of a future bumpK > > in performance, with EV79 as the target, is not broken.  It's just in atJ > > different form than originally expected.  It's still delivering on the# > > promise of a performance boost.  > M > This is absolute garbage. To say that what is being delivered is simply thesK > same but different is as near the truth as you seem to get i.e. it is theE > truth, just repackaged.o > K > I know I haven't posted on here for a long time but just who are you? You!J > sound like you speak for HP so are you here in an official capacity? YouM > appear to be speak like a relation of a certain Sun salesman who posts heretL > frequently but from the other side and without the courtesy of an official > title.  F JL is indeed an HP employee, AFAIK. Unfortunately, he suffers the sameA "PollyAnna" syndrome we see from HP'ers all to frequently here ine= c.o.v.: Rosy outlook with no foundation in tangible evidence.n  B I wish one - JUST *ONE* - HP'er would have the balls + backbone toF explain the bullshit (why one thing is said and another done), instead" of just spouting more of the same.   -- e David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:42:37 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e Subject: Re: IA64 TPC resultse' Message-ID: <3FBAE6AD.E17C3A6F@fsi.net>    jlsue wrote: > J > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:00:40 -0500, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> > wrote:
 > > [snip] > >Since June 25 2001, it hasfN > >been made very clear that the vendor can and has changed course at will and< > >somehow finds a way to spin this as keeping a commitment. > K > Being nimble and flexible is how you survive in this world.  Sometimes itX3 > means making decisions that are not very popular.   E ...and to date, we have yet to see a lucid explanation of how "makingtB decisions that are not very popular" with one's customer base doesB anything to promote new business, repeat business or even on-goingA business. Is that not the definition of how best to destroy one'seG customer base? Is that not exactly what the evidence says is happening?   D In the absence of credible official statements, actions speak louderF than words, especially when credibility is a negative value anyway and words are valueless.  H Jeff, I'm sorry - I fully understand your enthusiasm, even if I can onlyE imagine (but not comprehend) from whence it springs. The fact remainseD that such a position, without evidence to back up claims, is totally
 indefensible.n   -- t David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/M   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:11:07 GMT = From: peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)   Subject: inquirer mouth in foot?6 Message-ID: <3fba5246.3955187@news.cable.ntlworld.com>  ) http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12710              Peter WatkinsonM% peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.comb remove <nospam> to reply :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:41:23 GMT 9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>c$ Subject: Re: inquirer mouth in foot?2 Message-ID: <7Rsub.9239$4D5.6159@news.cpqcorp.net>  F Of course, I've always found it absurd to call a bunch of systems tiedF together on quadrics switches running Linux a "supercomputer".  I wishI someone had coined a better term for these loosely coupled compute farms.9    L "peter.watkinson1@ ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)" <nospam> wrote in message0 news:3fba5246.3955187@news.cable.ntlworld.com... >9 >2 >w >h+ > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12710i >w >e >  >l >f >< > Peter Watkinsonr' > peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.comr > remove <nospam> to reply :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 13:06:43 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)f$ Subject: Re: inquirer mouth in foot?3 Message-ID: <fGV2vISqbdv3@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  n In article <7Rsub.9239$4D5.6159@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> writes:H > Of course, I've always found it absurd to call a bunch of systems tiedH > together on quadrics switches running Linux a "supercomputer".  I wishK > someone had coined a better term for these loosely coupled compute farms.T >   > 	They did have a term.  NOW - Network Of Workstations.  That's 	what it is.  ? 	But alas, things get co-opted.  "The network is the computer",hB 	was "borrowed."  Shoot, look at the term "cluster".  Pfister made2 	a great book out of it.  "In Search of Clusters."  A 	I'm surrounded by fallover clusters.  Good enough for most folksoB 	and most applications (outages of 2-5 minutes).  But how they get< 	away with calling them clusters is beyond me.  I suppose ifG 	Operations switched cables and it took 15 minutes to come back, would   	that still be clustering?     			Clusters today:  + 		active-active      ! VMS and a few othersF- 		active-passive     ! W2K and AIX and othersCM                 active-oper        ! See the Operations RedBook for proceduree   				Robn   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:15:26 -0500h& From: "Chris Moore" <just@my.twocents>< Subject: Re: Installing Pathworks on a PC: no licence server: Message-ID: <EByub.9758$iT4.1080391@news20.bellglobal.com>  E If you are using server-based licensing, then the license needs to beeL registered on the license server via LMF (which may, but does not NEED to beA the file/print server, but needs at least the PWRK license servertI installed), then execute $ ADMIN/LICENSE on that box, which is a somewhatiJ difficult to navigate Pathworks license management utility, to add the newH license into its database.  Generally, new licenses will be added to theJ 'Default' group by default (now, there's a concept), which is what your PCI is going to look for by (wait for it...) default.  We have found that youoJ should run the license config program on your PC to set up the name of theD license server that will be queried; seems to get around most searchH failures.  Type in the license server name in the appropriate box and itB will get 'modified' somewhat by the license requestor, but will beH recognizable ("nodename" ==> "PWRK$LMnodename" or somesuch as I recall).  J The config routine and license requestor and a couple of other executablesH get dropped into the %systemroot%SYSTEM32 folder on WINNT and W2000, notL sure about XP.  Don't have my work machine here, but I think they are calledH PNLCFG.exe (the configurator) and PNLR32.exe (the license requestor), or some reasonable facsimile.    I If you are using client-based licensing ............ignore all the above.n   Cheers,e CM  E "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@paradigm-shift.biz> wrote in messagee= news:3fba068b$0$31749$c30e37c6@lon-reader.news.telstra.net... J > you need to use the separate Pathworks license utility. It is not enough to	 > use LMFi >t1 > I think it was called pwrk$license or some suchn >e > --   >  >u6 > ----------------------------------------------------3 > This mailbox protected from junk email by Matadort6 > from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com >o1 > "Didier Morandi" <no@spam.com> wrote in message . > news:3fb8e618$0$246$636a55ce@news.free.fr...H > > I recently installed pathworks on my Presario to share my VMS disks. > > The install went fine. > >e0 > > After PC reboot, I got this message (twice):I > > "Unable to obtain a license for DEC PWXXWINAT07.01 from license groupd
 > default" > >fG > > As I was never asked to provide such info, I'm not surprised, but I  would- > beI > > very glad to know where to start from in the doc to "set up a licensen > groupi
 > > default".c > >e > > Many thanks, > >b > > D. > >e >o >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:05:09 -0500'5 From: "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccuskerNosp@Mcompaq.com>r< Subject: Re: Installing Pathworks on a PC: no licence server/ Message-ID: <vrljuth1bgao5e@corp.supernews.com>t   Does that Presario run TCP/IP?I Does your VMS box?  If so, then you don't need PATHWORKS on the Presario.hF You only need PATHWORKS on the PC if you want to use DECnet on the PC.  I Even if you don't have TCP/IP on the VMS box, PATHWORKS for OpenVMS gives0F you a NetBeui stack, so, you still shouldn't need PATHWORKS on the PC.  E OK, is you insist on having PATHWORKS on the PC, then do as Bart Zorn - suggested, don't install the licensing agent.w  J Some one said to switch from server based to client based licensing.  ThatK only relates to client access licensing.  This is not client access licenseiL that is being requested.  Besides, when the PC is asking for a license, that _is_ client based licensing.   Brad  / "Didier Morandi" <no@spam.com> wrote in messagep, news:3fb8e618$0$246$636a55ce@news.free.fr...F > I recently installed pathworks on my Presario to share my VMS disks. > The install went fine. > . > After PC reboot, I got this message (twice):G > "Unable to obtain a license for DEC PWXXWINAT07.01 from license groupo default" >nK > As I was never asked to provide such info, I'm not surprised, but I wouldl beG > very glad to know where to start from in the doc to "set up a licensea groupo > default".  >e > Many thanks, >e > D. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:22:25 -0500 c From: "love_to_fake_emails@because_im_an_asshat.com" <love_to_fake_emails@because_im_an_asshat.com> Y Subject: Re: Mayor of London says JF Mezei is 'greatest threat to life on plane planeplan ; Message-ID: <MtAub.10277$iT4.1141767@news20.bellglobal.com>.  F Don't you mean Mezei ass felcher?  You follow him around so much, you , must get a raging woody every time he posts.D Get a fucking life, you sad sack of shit. At least grow enough hair @ around your nuts to post with a real email addy, not a cowardly  remailer, ya ponce.g   Mezei Troll Watch wrote:  0 > Message-ID: <3FBA992F.68BF5D16@wilderness.org>0 > From: Johnny Raccoon <J.Racoon@wilderness.org>, > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) > X-Accept-Language: enr > MIME-Version: 1.0l > Newsgroups: rec.travel.airG > Subject: Re: Mayor of London says Bush is 'greatest threat to life onn	 > planet' 0 > References: <3FB9906A.CD8A51E9@hotmail.nospam>1 > <4Nqub.1314$1Q2.463@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com> . > <vn2lrv0sdouggekstn35dtvnbfkhhsplid@4ax.com>, > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii! > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit:$ > X-Forwarded: by - (DeleGate/8.5.4)
 > Lines: 9' > Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:12:07 -05000! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.230.46.34y% > X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.caiJ > X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1069193408 64.230.46.34 (Tue, 18 Nov 2003 > 17:10:08 EST).2 > NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:10:08 EST > Organization: Bell Sympatico >  > A >>>For you non-Americans out there, don't undersestimate the man.i >  > J > And for you Americans, don't underestimate the damage your president hasE > caused to the United States and to the USA's standing in the world.r > L > Had Americans not underestimated Bush/Cheney/Wumsfeld abilities to lie andJ > deceipt, perhaps they would have forced the democrats to actually oppose > the/K > selected president instead of blindily supporting his illegal invasion of0 > Iraq2 > and blatant insults at its international allies. >  >                   ---------- > * > Message-ID: <3FBA9D95.6426CDE@istop.com>, > From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>, > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) > X-Accept-Language: eng > MIME-Version: 1.0l > Newsgroups: comp.os.vms  > Subject: Re: Printer problem2 > References: <bpe5jt$330$1@sparta.btinternet.com>, > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii! > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7biti$ > X-Forwarded: by - (DeleGate/8.5.4) > Lines: 16-' > Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:30:54 -05000! > NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.230.46.34L% > X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.caOJ > X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1069194533 64.230.46.34 (Tue, 18 Nov 2003 > 17:28:53 EST)a2 > NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:28:53 EST > Organization: Bell Sympatico >  > Insomnee wrote:  > M >>Another problem I have is where I have a Square Root symbol at the top leftvG >>of the first page, either when I have the banner page or as the first1( >>character on the page if I go without. >>! >>Anyone got any ideas on either?o >  > = > $SHOW QUEUE/FULL to see which form is currently being used.3 > L > $SHOW QUEUE/FORM/FULL to see what is the /SETUP module associated with the > form.e > M > Then check out the contents of that module to see if it wouldn't be sendingS8 > commands that don't agree with what you want it to do. > J > Or, if other queueus work and this one doesn't work, compare the mounted > formsiJ > and then change the deffective queue to have the same form as the queues > that workj > ) >                    --------------------t > & > Some of JF Mezei's trolling aliases: > & > Flapping Labias <flabia@anatomy.org>' > Throbbing vulva <t.vulva@anatomy.org>  > Twin Gonads <two@gonads.com>' > Loose Scrotum <l.scrotum@anatomy.org>-$ > Raised Organ <R.Organ@anatomy.org>& > Popped Cherry <P.Cherry@anatomy.org>/ > Monica Lewinski <billclinton@westchester.com>h) > Deep Fried Foreskin <dff@mcdonalds.com> $ > Aroma of Smegma <aroma@chanel.org> > Wet fart <w.Fart@smell.org>E) > Pubic dandruff <P.dandruff@anatomy.org>T* > Voluptuous Nipple <V.nipple@anatomy.org>( > Inserted Finger <I.Finger@anatomy.org>! > Pubic Nair <shaved@anatomy.org>x) > Flatulent Meatus <F.Meatus@anatomy.org>l' > Lihk Mhygroin <L.MyGroin@anatomy.org>l > Pre Khum <P.Khum@anatomy.org>u# > Phi Mosis <Phi.Mosis@anatomy.org> % > Bal Anatis <Bal.Anatis@anatomy.org>a" > Fren Ullum <F.Ullum@anatomy.org>& > Ivanna Getlaid <I.Getlaid@onani.org>( > Ivanna Wankalot <I.Wankalot@onani.org>& > Ivanna Umpalot <Humpalot@drevil.com>, > Wan Tnoneofit <W.Tnoneofit@weirdnames.org>  > Wan Itbad <W.Itbad@inneed.org># > Wan Towank <W.ToWank@anatomy.org>-! > Wan Tolik <w.tolik@anatomy.org> & > Testos Terone <t.terone@anatomy.org># > Upper Gonad <U.Gonad@anatomy.org>C# > Right Gonad <R.Gonad@anatomy.org> " > Left Gonad <L.Gonad@anatomy.org>& > Tyson's Glands <Tyson.G@anatomy.org>  > Nose Hair <n.hair@anatomy.org>' > Coronal Sulcus <C.Sulcus@anatomy.org>k' > Corpus Cavernus <manhood@anatomy.org> & > Armpit moisture <armpit@anatomy.org> > Onani Room <onani@hotels.com> ( > Arnie's Banana <weiner@terminator.com>* > Raised eyebrows <r.eyebrows@anatomy.org>' > Vas Deferens <V.deferens@anatomy.org> ' > Naked Canuck <N.canuck@naturists.org>L( > Arni's socks <Smelly.Socks@arnold.org>, > Notable Exception <N.exception@untied.com>( > Unpopped Cherry <U.Cherry@anatomy.org>) > Tatooed Ovaries <T.Ovaries@anatomy.org>h) > Pierced eyelid <p.eyelid@piercings.org>l* > Limp Tomato <limp.tomato@vegetables.org>. > Eggplant Earrings <e.earrings@piercings.org>0 > Banana Underpants <B.Underpants@hillfiger.org> > Naval Lint <navel@lint.mil> ) > Ingrown Toenail <i.toenail@anatomy.org> ' > Empty Stomach <E.Stomach@anatomy.org> & > Full Stomach <f.stomach@anatomy.org>$ > Smelly Cat <S.Cat@friends.nbc.com>( > Torn Ligament <T.Ligament@anatomy.org>% > Art Tistic <A.Tistic@modern.museum>c* > Furry Raccoon <F.Raccoon@wilderness.org>' > Wet Racoon <W.Racoon@wildnerness.org>r$ > Mad Racoon <M.Racoon@wildlife.org>' > Lazy Racoon <L.Racoon@wilderness.org>r( > Eaten Racoon <E.Raccoon@mcdonalds.com>) > Happy Raccoon <H.Racoon@wilderness.org>-+ > Sleeping Racoon <S.Racoon@wilderness.org> ) > Hungry Racoon <H.Racoon@wilderness.org>i$ > Horny Raccoon <H.Racoon@fauna.org>* > Smart Raccoon <S.Raccoon@wilderness.org>. > George W Raccoon <GW.Raccoon@wilderness.org>- > Ronald McRaccoon <r.raccoon@wilderness.org>o, > Thirsty Raccoon <T.Raccoon@wilderness.org>* > Johnny Raccoon <J.Racoon@wilderness.org>) > Oshi Santo <O.Santo@nx01.starfleet.org>t, > Oishi Chinko <O.Chinko@nx01.starfleet.org>! > T.Yellow <T.Yellow@nowhere.com>s > Q <queue@continuum.net>  > Borg Queen <1of1@borg.org> > etc. >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:21:56 -0600.1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>/> Subject: Re: New maynagement software Nimbus also for OpenVMS?' Message-ID: <3FBAEFE4.2CFD8E48@fsi.net>-   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > = > "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in messageu9 > news:f30679fb.0311180733.2de77e17@posting.google.com...F7 > > "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote in message 8 > news:<MCELKPMOKPMNDNKJNIONKEOECFAA.win@fom.fgan.de>... > > > Hello, > > >sH > > > today I red, that HP will produce a new management software called > Nimbus. ThisI > > > software should function on Windows, Linux und HP-UX. I did not redy
 > anythingK > > > about OpenVMS. But the mention should be: one managment software, oneb
 > look and& > > > feel for it on all OS platforms. > > >n! > > > Best regards Rudolf Wingertd > >e > >r > >oG > > A few days ago I posted this subject " OpenVMS and HP Nimbus" and ItK > > didnt receive a good answer about it ! Aynobody in HP could answer whata > > Nimbues means for OpenVMS ?h > >o >  > No.  > K > Aside from stating that OpenVMS will actively be involved in Nimbus, this N > forum is not an appropriate place to discuss details of the program.  Nor doF > the people who are actively engaged hang out in this forum to do so. > 2 > What does it all mean for VMS?  All good things.  ( Oh, goody! We're *FINALLY* going to see:   o Affordable pricing o Ubiquitous Mainstream advertsiC o HP bending over backwards to woo ISVs from the UN*X and M$ worldsh@ o HP bending over backwards to promote (rather than kill) VMS...  H Say, "Hallelujah!", my brothers and sisters! The day of our salvation is at last at hand!!!  D (I'll save you the trouble of posting it: "Shut up, DJ! Damn, you're such a PollyAnna!")    -- n David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:45:27 GMT7# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>E9 Subject: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to AccelerateiH Message-ID: <bNtub.34832$j1d.15996@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  , Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate  H Analysts at Computer Digital Expo in Las Vegas predict that, despite any
 social and: political outcry, IT jobs increasingly will move offshore.; http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/3110511.    I Pretty soon HP's biggest markets for VMS will be the software developmentoK sweatshops of India, China, and Vietnam. And the apps will all be deliverede as ASP.u   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 13:31:57 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young),= Subject: Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate 3 Message-ID: <Wcyztd0VI$w$@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  n In article <bNtub.34832$j1d.15996@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:. > Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate > J > Analysts at Computer Digital Expo in Las Vegas predict that, despite any > social and< > political outcry, IT jobs increasingly will move offshore.= > http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/31105110 >  > K > Pretty soon HP's biggest markets for VMS will be the software development-M > sweatshops of India, China, and Vietnam. And the apps will all be deliverede	 > as ASP.s >    	Inevitable.  > 	If you would have caught NBR about 3 weeks ago you would haveB 	seen a nice story about Taiwan and business there.  ManufacturingC 	is at the bottom of the smiley curve.  The idea is to head towardsv> 	value propositions.  Since IT proper is losing its valuation D 	everywhere, other things move in to fill the void.  There are stillE 	pockets of innovation and value add - IT isn't going away.  The dumbe? 	stuff is and things that can, offshore code jockeys, offshore h	 	support.d  C 	Take textiles.  Textiles have shifted all over the world and have sG 	mostly found a home in the cheapest labor pool in the world - China.  A< 	There is no value proposition in textiles.  Back to Taiwan.> 	China is building fabs.  CPU manufacturing will be losing its 	value proposition.  Repeat:  8 		CPU manufacturing will be losing its value proposition   	Taiwan recognizes this fact.s  C 	What to do?  Taiwainese government isn't stupid and in conjunctioni@ 	with business is actively involved in finding top spots on that? 	smiley curve.  The example that was highlighted is that TaiwanHB 	proper has 500 million invested in nanotechnology research.  TheyB 	expect to build nanotech to 10-12 billion in business in the next	 	5 years.g  B 	What about this country?  Huge areas of research and development.B 	Remember back in the day (early 80s) when Japan was going to take 	over the world?  B 	Point here is business is a very fluid thing and America has beenA 	surprisngly innovative over the last 300 hundred years.  I don't G 	see innovation vanishing here, I'm surrounded by creative individuals.    				Robu   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:48:40 GMTl' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> = Subject: Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Acceleratef+ Message-ID: <3FBA866A.ACD3B5CB@pacbell.net>n   Rob Young wrote: > p > In article <bNtub.34832$j1d.15996@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:0 > > Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate > >nL > > Analysts at Computer Digital Expo in Las Vegas predict that, despite any > > social and> > > political outcry, IT jobs increasingly will move offshore.? > > http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/3110511o > >o > >eM > > Pretty soon HP's biggest markets for VMS will be the software development-O > > sweatshops of India, China, and Vietnam. And the apps will all be deliveredz > > as ASP.z > >r >  >         Inevitable.  > G >         If you would have caught NBR about 3 weeks ago you would have.K >         seen a nice story about Taiwan and business there.  Manufacturing.L >         is at the bottom of the smiley curve.  The idea is to head towardsF >         value propositions.  Since IT proper is losing its valuationM >         everywhere, other things move in to fill the void.  There are stilltN >         pockets of innovation and value add - IT isn't going away.  The dumbG >         stuff is and things that can, offshore code jockeys, offshoree >         support. > K >         Take textiles.  Textiles have shifted all over the world and haverN >         mostly found a home in the cheapest labor pool in the world - China.E >         There is no value proposition in textiles.  Back to Taiwan.AG >         China is building fabs.  CPU manufacturing will be losing its1% >         value proposition.  Repeat:- > H >                 CPU manufacturing will be losing its value proposition > & >         Taiwan recognizes this fact. > L >         What to do?  Taiwainese government isn't stupid and in conjunctionI >         with business is actively involved in finding top spots on that9H >         smiley curve.  The example that was highlighted is that TaiwanK >         proper has 500 million invested in nanotechnology research.  TheywK >         expect to build nanotech to 10-12 billion in business in the next  >         5 years. > K >         What about this country?  Huge areas of research and development.eK >         Remember back in the day (early 80s) when Japan was going to takev >         over the world?w > K >         Point here is business is a very fluid thing and America has beendJ >         surprisngly innovative over the last 300 hundred years.  I don'tP >         see innovation vanishing here, I'm surrounded by creative individuals. >   E Some good points, Rob. Business and economics in general are about ashH predictable as winning lottery numbers. What seems like the current tide5 today has an odd way of changing direction tomorrow. o  H John's point about more IT jobs leaving US is of valid concern, however.E Foremost, because it effects me personally;) and of course many othernC COV'ers. Second problem is the impact on the overall economy on allnF these good paying jobs leaving. There are a lot of us whose income hasG been significantly reduced over the past few years, in part, because of/D this offshore flow. One way to fight back of course is to lower your? expectations and charge fees that can compete with the offshoreRD companies. I know that's a big drop, but I think a programmer can beC competitive with anyone at say ~$20/hr... or I guess we could driveaH taxis and code on our laptops, while we're waiting for our next fare;)       -- M   Have VMS, Will Travelr Wire paladin, San Franciscoe   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:28:40 +0300 ! From: "pbc" <pbc@informchaos.com>n= Subject: Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Acceleratee/ Message-ID: <bpe2uf$g4l$1@alpha2.radio-msu.net>    > >f > G > Some good points, Rob. Business and economics in general are about aseJ > predictable as winning lottery numbers. What seems like the current tide6 > today has an odd way of changing direction tomorrow. > J > John's point about more IT jobs leaving US is of valid concern, however.G > Foremost, because it effects me personally;) and of course many otheraE > COV'ers. Second problem is the impact on the overall economy on allcH > these good paying jobs leaving. There are a lot of us whose income hasI > been significantly reduced over the past few years, in part, because of:F > this offshore flow. One way to fight back of course is to lower yourA > expectations and charge fees that can compete with the offshoreeF > companies. I know that's a big drop, but I think a programmer can beE > competitive with anyone at say ~$20/hr... or I guess we could driveiH > taxis and code on our laptops, while we're waiting for our next fare;) >R >   = I'm afraid your estimate at ~$20/hr is far away from reality.nJ How do you compete with a programmer who lives under the palm tree, eats aL couple of bananas a day, has one t-shirt, wears sandals all year long? Looks! like it's closer to ~$20 a month.    Peteri   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:17:09 -0500-* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>= Subject: Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Acceleratee) Message-ID: <3FBA9A5D.849F2AB3@istop.com>i  
 pbc wrote:? > I'm afraid your estimate at ~$20/hr is far away from reality.mL > How do you compete with a programmer who lives under the palm tree, eats aN > couple of bananas a day, has one t-shirt, wears sandals all year long? Looks# > like it's closer to ~$20 a month.e  M Ironic that those western programmers who earn much more can't afford to havet such a lifestyle!o  O People spend big money to spend one or two weeks a year in such an environment.p   :-)n   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:42:01 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> = Subject: Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate>I Message-ID: <t%yub.111461$HoK.55885@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>t   Don Sykes wrote: > pbc wrote: >> >>>> >>>gF >>> Some good points, Rob. Business and economics in general are aboutB >>> as predictable as winning lottery numbers. What seems like theE >>> current tide today has an odd way of changing direction tomorrow.m >>>iC >>> John's point about more IT jobs leaving US is of valid concern,gG >>> however. Foremost, because it effects me personally;) and of courseeC >>> many other COV'ers. Second problem is the impact on the overalltE >>> economy on all these good paying jobs leaving. There are a lot ofyD >>> us whose income has been significantly reduced over the past fewC >>> years, in part, because of this offshore flow. One way to fight E >>> back of course is to lower your expectations and charge fees thataF >>> can compete with the offshore companies. I know that's a big drop,B >>> but I think a programmer can be competitive with anyone at sayG >>> ~$20/hr... or I guess we could drive taxis and code on our laptops,>+ >>> while we're waiting for our next fare;)i >>>r >>>e >>@ >> I'm afraid your estimate at ~$20/hr is far away from reality.F >> How do you compete with a programmer who lives under the palm tree,E >> eats a couple of bananas a day, has one t-shirt, wears sandals all 5 >> year long? Looks like it's closer to ~$20 a month.  >> >> Peter >iF > Actually, that's about what the legitimate Indian software firms areG > advertizing - $15-20 per hour for development work. These are seriousrE > corporations with talented people, offices, insurance, etc. I wouldaC > never say anyone could compete with an unincorporated, free lance * > Indian. That would be more like $3-5/hr.    K Well in the past 2 years I have had exposure to work done by one very largenJ Indian software company whose name is very short and consists of a pair ofI letters repeated twice. There were two projects in particular that reallyt got my hair standing up:  F 1st project was low-bid by them at $1.5MM. My bid was $3.8MM. DeliveryJ schedules were the same in both cases - about 12 months elapsed time. TheyK delivered one month behind schedule. The application went live for two days0A and then was shut down for 're-engineering' due to failure of thelG application to keep up with loads (lots of really bad code according toeL people over here who looked at it after the app was pulled from production).F It went live again about 14 months later after recoding....on the sameE hardware. Total cost to the customer (ex-hardware)....about $12MM. Noa$ functionality added in the re-write.  L 2nd application was to have been delivered in January 2001. I did not bid onL this project.  It went live last month. Initial cost budgeted at $15MM. Cost; to-date: $38MM. No scope creep happened during development.b   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:11:45 GMT ' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net>i= Subject: Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate + Message-ID: <3FBAB602.27FAF232@pacbell.net>e  
 pbc wrote: >  > > >i > >sI > > Some good points, Rob. Business and economics in general are about asrL > > predictable as winning lottery numbers. What seems like the current tide8 > > today has an odd way of changing direction tomorrow. > > L > > John's point about more IT jobs leaving US is of valid concern, however.I > > Foremost, because it effects me personally;) and of course many otheraG > > COV'ers. Second problem is the impact on the overall economy on alleJ > > these good paying jobs leaving. There are a lot of us whose income hasK > > been significantly reduced over the past few years, in part, because of-H > > this offshore flow. One way to fight back of course is to lower yourC > > expectations and charge fees that can compete with the offshoretH > > companies. I know that's a big drop, but I think a programmer can beG > > competitive with anyone at say ~$20/hr... or I guess we could drivegJ > > taxis and code on our laptops, while we're waiting for our next fare;) > >e > >p > ? > I'm afraid your estimate at ~$20/hr is far away from reality.iL > How do you compete with a programmer who lives under the palm tree, eats aN > couple of bananas a day, has one t-shirt, wears sandals all year long? Looks# > like it's closer to ~$20 a month.r >  > Peter   D Actually, that's about what the legitimate Indian software firms areE advertizing - $15-20 per hour for development work. These are serious C corporations with talented people, offices, insurance, etc. I would A never say anyone could compete with an unincorporated, free lancee( Indian. That would be more like $3-5/hr.   -- u   Have VMS, Will Travelc Wire paladin, San Franciscol   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 01:22:04 GMTo' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> = Subject: Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to Accelerate2+ Message-ID: <3FBAC681.3264FDE4@pacbell.net>o   John Smith wrote:c >  > Don Sykes wrote: > > pbc wrote: > >> > >>>> > >>>nH > >>> Some good points, Rob. Business and economics in general are aboutD > >>> as predictable as winning lottery numbers. What seems like theG > >>> current tide today has an odd way of changing direction tomorrow.> > >>>rE > >>> John's point about more IT jobs leaving US is of valid concern,lI > >>> however. Foremost, because it effects me personally;) and of courseeE > >>> many other COV'ers. Second problem is the impact on the overallnG > >>> economy on all these good paying jobs leaving. There are a lot ofeF > >>> us whose income has been significantly reduced over the past fewE > >>> years, in part, because of this offshore flow. One way to fightsG > >>> back of course is to lower your expectations and charge fees thatvH > >>> can compete with the offshore companies. I know that's a big drop,D > >>> but I think a programmer can be competitive with anyone at sayI > >>> ~$20/hr... or I guess we could drive taxis and code on our laptops, - > >>> while we're waiting for our next fare;)t > >>>u > >>>f > >>B > >> I'm afraid your estimate at ~$20/hr is far away from reality.H > >> How do you compete with a programmer who lives under the palm tree,G > >> eats a couple of bananas a day, has one t-shirt, wears sandals alld7 > >> year long? Looks like it's closer to ~$20 a month.b > >>
 > >> Peter > >lH > > Actually, that's about what the legitimate Indian software firms areI > > advertizing - $15-20 per hour for development work. These are serious G > > corporations with talented people, offices, insurance, etc. I would/E > > never say anyone could compete with an unincorporated, free lanceu, > > Indian. That would be more like $3-5/hr. > M > Well in the past 2 years I have had exposure to work done by one very large3L > Indian software company whose name is very short and consists of a pair ofK > letters repeated twice. There were two projects in particular that reallyJ > got my hair standing up: > H > 1st project was low-bid by them at $1.5MM. My bid was $3.8MM. DeliveryL > schedules were the same in both cases - about 12 months elapsed time. TheyM > delivered one month behind schedule. The application went live for two dayscC > and then was shut down for 're-engineering' due to failure of thesI > application to keep up with loads (lots of really bad code according to"N > people over here who looked at it after the app was pulled from production).H > It went live again about 14 months later after recoding....on the sameG > hardware. Total cost to the customer (ex-hardware)....about $12MM. Nos& > functionality added in the re-write. > N > 2nd application was to have been delivered in January 2001. I did not bid onN > this project.  It went live last month. Initial cost budgeted at $15MM. Cost= > to-date: $38MM. No scope creep happened during development.t  F And the customer PAID that amount??? Why did they agree to pay for the	 overruns?hG I hate to imply the worst, but it sounds like some envelopes might have E been exchanged under the table. It might be worth the money to hire afH private investigator to check out the person who signed off on this. Has$ he/she bought any new yachts lately?   -- 3   Have VMS, Will Travele Wire paladin, San Francisco.   (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 04:45:21 GMTl# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n= Subject: Re: OT: Offshoring of IT Jobs Expected to AccelerateoH Message-ID: <BzCub.38398$j1d.28047@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   Don Sykes wrote: > John Smith wrote:1 >> >> Don Sykes wrote:  >>> pbc wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>dH >>>>> Some good points, Rob. Business and economics in general are aboutD >>>>> as predictable as winning lottery numbers. What seems like theG >>>>> current tide today has an odd way of changing direction tomorrow.  >>>>>rE >>>>> John's point about more IT jobs leaving US is of valid concern,cB >>>>> however. Foremost, because it effects me personally;) and ofD >>>>> course many other COV'ers. Second problem is the impact on theF >>>>> overall economy on all these good paying jobs leaving. There areF >>>>> a lot of us whose income has been significantly reduced over theE >>>>> past few years, in part, because of this offshore flow. One way-F >>>>> to fight back of course is to lower your expectations and chargeF >>>>> fees that can compete with the offshore companies. I know that'sB >>>>> a big drop, but I think a programmer can be competitive withG >>>>> anyone at say ~$20/hr... or I guess we could drive taxis and code.= >>>>> on our laptops, while we're waiting for our next fare;)a >>>>>n >>>>>y >>>>B >>>> I'm afraid your estimate at ~$20/hr is far away from reality.H >>>> How do you compete with a programmer who lives under the palm tree,G >>>> eats a couple of bananas a day, has one t-shirt, wears sandals alln7 >>>> year long? Looks like it's closer to ~$20 a month.d >>>>
 >>>> Peter >>>cH >>> Actually, that's about what the legitimate Indian software firms areA >>> advertizing - $15-20 per hour for development work. These arerG >>> serious corporations with talented people, offices, insurance, etc.lG >>> I would never say anyone could compete with an unincorporated, freet2 >>> lance Indian. That would be more like $3-5/hr. >>C >> Well in the past 2 years I have had exposure to work done by onelB >> very large Indian software company whose name is very short and? >> consists of a pair of letters repeated twice. There were twor> >> projects in particular that really got my hair standing up: >>@ >> 1st project was low-bid by them at $1.5MM. My bid was $3.8MM.C >> Delivery schedules were the same in both cases - about 12 monthso> >> elapsed time. They delivered one month behind schedule. The@ >> application went live for two days and then was shut down forE >> 're-engineering' due to failure of the application to keep up witheC >> loads (lots of really bad code according to people over here whoEG >> looked at it after the app was pulled from production). It went liveeF >> again about 14 months later after recoding....on the same hardware.> >> Total cost to the customer (ex-hardware)....about $12MM. No' >> functionality added in the re-write.b >>D >> 2nd application was to have been delivered in January 2001. I didB >> not bid on this project.  It went live last month. Initial costB >> budgeted at $15MM. Cost to-date: $38MM. No scope creep happened >> during development. >gH > And the customer PAID that amount??? Why did they agree to pay for the > overruns?   G It was one of those apps that had a 'public visibility' and there was apJ commitment made to the user base that the new app would be delivered. OnceK the $15MM was spent and the app not done, there really was no choice not to D coninue to spend money, ie. they'd rather spend the dough and have aI delivered app no matter how much it cost than have egg on their faces for G breaking a commitment to deliver the new app. Sort of like burning youri boats behind you ;-)    D > I hate to imply the worst, but it sounds like some envelopes mightE > have been exchanged under the table. It might be worth the money to.G > hire a private investigator to check out the person who signed off oni0 > this. Has he/she bought any new yachts lately?  L There were several layers of signoffs on this project at senior levels and 2C groups of auditors watching the money....maybe Andersen was one ;-)    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 01:04:17 GMT 1 From: "Jerry Alan Braga" <jerry.braga@rogers.com>- Subject: Re: PHP ApachexH Message-ID: <lkzub.36410$j1d.17353@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  K thanks for you help. It seems to work but now I get another error about not J enough bytes received.  the best solution would be to have the second fileL access wait until the first is done.  Can this be done with rms logicals etc  A "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> wrote in messageiN news:craigberry-9A11A7.22200017112003@dsl081-159-101.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net...1 > In article <%B6ub.163$s8.2361@news.on.tac.net>,r2 >  "Jerry Alan Braga" <jabraga@flanagan.ca> wrote: >rL > > I am testing some php solutions on openvms 7.3-1 / apache 1.3.26 and PHP > > 4.3. > >a< > > Testing this email client I keep running into this error > > E > > session_start(): open(/tmp/sess_ed721776dd7ff819bed6a1ac0c391883,c O_RDWR)p< > > failed: file currently locked by another user (65535) in; > > /php$test/squirrelmail/functions/global.php on line 294m > > J > > Is it because vms cannot close the files fast enough, or is there some > > setting I can use to fix ito >nI > By default, files are not opened for shared access on OpenVMS.  I don't A > know whether PHP provides any optional extensions to change the A > default, but you can probably skip the PHP layer and define theP/ > following feature logical for the C run-time:e >,# > $ define DECC$FILE_SHARING ENABLEn >iD > Make sure that's in a logical name table that will be seen by yourC > script.  This assumes that PHP's open() uses the CRTL's open(), aiH > likely, but not certain, supposition.  The CRTL documentation for this > logical name is located here:a >cJ > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/5763/5763pro_005.html#index_x_129   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:39:55 -0600 6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> Subject: Re: PHP Apache T Message-ID: <craigberry-D05D09.22395518112003@dsl081-159-101.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net>   In article  = <lkzub.36410$j1d.17353@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,v3  "Jerry Alan Braga" <jerry.braga@rogers.com> wrote:   M > thanks for you help. It seems to work but now I get another error about noteL > enough bytes received.  the best solution would be to have the second fileN > access wait until the first is done.  Can this be done with rms logicals etc  D I'm not aware of any knobs attached to the CRTL's open() that would G cause two different open()'s on the same file to synchronize with each tD other.  In a native VMS language there are various methods, such as H write attention ASTs, for keeping track of who else is accessing a file A you're interested in -- see the I/O Users' Guide.  In native VMS eD languages as well as some scripting languages (Perl, DCL) you could H simply try the open, check the return status, and if it's RMS$_FLK then D wait some reasonable period of time before trying again.  I have no 4 idea whether PHP supports status checking like that.  H There's no automatic reason that having the same file open twice is the D cause that "bytes received" are not the same as bytes expected, but D perhaps you've done more analysis than you are sharing with us.  In E order to diagnose this there would have to be a lot more information 1F about who is receiving bytes from whom, how it is counting them, what F protocols, algorithms, APIs etc. are being used to transfer data, and H what authoritative byte count is being compared with the unsatisfactory  count.    A Another thing to track down derives from the implication in your yH original post that the files in question are temporary files.  There is G the possibility that there is a lame generator of temporary file names iB that is generating the same name twice in a row, thus causing two G different transactions to be using the same file when they shouldn't.  m? This may or may not be the case, but should be checked out and m' eliminated as the cause of the problem.n   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:49:37 +0000 (UTC)e. From: "Insomnee" <robert.heyes@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: Printer problem0 Message-ID: <bpe7m1$93q$1@sparta.btinternet.com>  7 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in messagen" news:3FBA9D95.6426CDE@istop.com... > Insomnee wrote:tJ > > Another problem I have is where I have a Square Root symbol at the top leftI > > of the first page, either when I have the banner page or as the firsto* > > character on the page if I go without. > > # > > Anyone got any ideas on either?i > = > $SHOW QUEUE/FULL to see which form is currently being used.m > L > $SHOW QUEUE/FORM/FULL to see what is the /SETUP module associated with the form.= >aE > Then check out the contents of that module to see if it wouldn't be/ sending 8 > commands that don't agree with what you want it to do. >PJ > Or, if other queueus work and this one doesn't work, compare the mounted forms2J > and then change the deffective queue to have the same form as the queues	 that works  J Thats just it, the mounted form type works on other printers, and the sameJ models. Printer setups are usually the same. Unless Users have changed theL settings on the printer, which I dont think they would have (but Users beingK users...) and there's only myself and somone else who could or would changeeJ the PCL in the module. I will check this tomorrow morning. Time for bed in UK!n   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:14:21 +0000 (UTC)s. From: "Insomnee" <robert.heyes@btinternet.com> Subject: Printer problem0 Message-ID: <bpe5jt$330$1@sparta.btinternet.com>  F I have a lot of Printers on our VMS 7.2-1 system, (cant upgrade due toL Oracle and no character based forms in later versions, eejits.) the majority- are HP, and for the most part they work fine.   J One however has started wanting the Go button to be pressed before it willJ print anything. Example: It says load paper in tray 1, but if you press GoJ it overrides and takes from the bulk paper casette. Is there a way to stop< it from happening and take directly from Tray 3. I did add aG /separate=(reset=reset)) on a set queue command but it didnt work. I amLH sending it a PCL statement through a device library / form type and dontH really want to mess about with that as other printers are using the sameC module and working OK. We can print OK from Word and Windows etc...   K Another problem I have is where I have a Square Root symbol at the top left<E of the first page, either when I have the banner page or as the firstk& character on the page if I go without.   Anyone got any ideas on either?    Ta Pips.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:30:54 -0500.* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> Subject: Re: Printer problem( Message-ID: <3FBA9D95.6426CDE@istop.com>   Insomnee wrote:.M > Another problem I have is where I have a Square Root symbol at the top left.G > of the first page, either when I have the banner page or as the firsto( > character on the page if I go without. > ! > Anyone got any ideas on either?C  ; $SHOW QUEUE/FULL to see which form is currently being used.n  P $SHOW QUEUE/FORM/FULL to see what is the /SETUP module associated with the form.  K Then check out the contents of that module to see if it wouldn't be sendingo6 commands that don't agree with what you want it to do.  N Or, if other queueus work and this one doesn't work, compare the mounted formsR and then change the deffective queue to have the same form as the queues that work   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 14:00:17 -0600' From: jim@info2.uah.edu (Jim McCullars)o% Subject: Question re VMS::IndexedFile.( Message-ID: <bpdtoh$74v$1@info2.uah.edu>  
 Greetings:  M    After several people suggested the use of the perl module VMS::IndexedFile M to read some RMS indexed files in perl, I decided to try and install it.  I'mt8 having some problems, and hope someone can offer advice.  I    We downloaded, built, and installed 5.6.1 from source.  This part went H well, but when I tested the use of the VMS::Stdio module, I found that IG had to change permissions on the perl_root directory.  After this, thatr module worked OK.   H    Next, I tried installing VMS::IndexedFile.  I unzipped it into a sub-H directory off my home directory, did "perl makefile.pl" and then did theJ mmk command.  I was kind of surprised in that it installed it into my homeA directory path, but not anywhere under the system-wide perl_root.u  >    When I try running the included test.pl script, I get this:   BRAVO>perl "-Iblib/lib" test.ploP Can't locate loadable object for module VMS::IndexedFile in @INC (@INC contains:P  blib/lib /perl_root/lib/VMS_AXP/5_6_1 /perl_root/lib /perl_root/lib/site_perl/VM MS_AXP /perl_root/lib/site_perl /perl_root/lib/site_perl .) at test.pl line 8o0 Compilation failed in require at test.pl line 8.4 BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at test.pl line 8. %SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort  L It finds the indexedfile.pm file, but not the compiled part.  So my questionL is, what do I need to do to get everything installed in a place that I don'tK have to put any -I perl options on the command line to get VMS::IndexedFileDF to work?  If it helps, we are on OpenVMS 7.3 on an Alpha server.  The  perl_root is defined as:  * 	"BRAVO$DKB0:[OTHER.FREEWARE.PERL-5_6_1.]"  C and it appears that we have VMS::IndexedFile version 0.02.  Thanks!.  
 Jim McCullars    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:51:46 -0600e6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>) Subject: Re: Question re VMS::IndexedFilehT Message-ID: <craigberry-7005F8.19514618112003@dsl081-159-101.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net>  ( In article <bpdtoh$74v$1@info2.uah.edu>,)  jim@info2.uah.edu (Jim McCullars) wrote:o  O >    After several people suggested the use of the perl module VMS::IndexedFileiO > to read some RMS indexed files in perl, I decided to try and install it.  I'mH: > having some problems, and hope someone can offer advice. > K >    We downloaded, built, and installed 5.6.1 from source.  This part went J > well, but when I tested the use of the VMS::Stdio module, I found that I9 > had to change permissions on the perl_root directory.  d  H How exactly did you "install" Perl?  If you ran "mmk install" it should > have set world read/execute permission on the relevant pieces.  J >    Next, I tried installing VMS::IndexedFile.  I unzipped it into a sub-J > directory off my home directory, did "perl makefile.pl" and then did theL > mmk command.  I was kind of surprised in that it installed it into my homeC > directory path, but not anywhere under the system-wide perl_root.r  C Unless you've omitted a step in your description, then you haven't e@ installed it at all.  The basic procedure for building any Perl E extension is (after making sure the perl_root logical name points to .$ the Perl you want to build against):   $ perl Makefile.PL $ mmk ! OR  mmso $ mmk test  ! OR mms test- $ mmk install  ! OR mms install0  ; Let's start by confirming that you've done all those steps.:   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:31:21 GMT8# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)e( Subject: Re: raid 5 OpenVMS VAX hobbyist2 Message-ID: <tkvub.9262$cN5.4990@news.cpqcorp.net>  i In article <2Fuub.151153$W7.969@news.chello.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes:hA :IIRC, this is the first time I don't accept Hoff's statement ;-)  : Y :In article <a5sub.9224$My5.4822@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:nH :>  If by RAID 5 you really mean striping (which is the usual definitionE :>  of RAID 5) this requires either controller-based hardware or somemF :>  host-based striping package such as the StorageWorks RAID product,E :>  or other similar approach.  There is no system-integrated productmG :>  (SIP) striping package available within OpenVMS; volume striping isa  :>  available a layered product. :m? :RAID 5 is not usually defined as striping. RAID 0 is striping.     F   RAID 5 per the references I have checked is usually defined as beingF   RAID 0 (striping) with distributed parity.  OpenVMS does not have anG   system integrated package (SIP) for striping, though the StorageWorks :   RAID software package is available as a layered product.  D   I've seen any number of different definitions of RAID levels over D   the years, which is why I prefer to use "shadowing" or "mirroring"C   or "striping", and "host-based" or "controller-based", etc.  (TheiD   long-time reader of the groups might recall the occasional requestF   I've made around the inclusion of specific details, version numbers,D   and supporting background information.  I've been burned by my ownD   assumptions on far too many occasions not to request some level ofD   detail and some background from those folks asking the questions.)  C   The various RAID levels can certainly be useful, once all partiest@   understand the intent and can agree on the terminology and theC   definitions.  And if we know the requirements, we can potentiallyT   provide alternatives.i  ? :RAID 5 (and sometimes RAID 3, too) is usually defined as raid.u  :   The definition of "RAID" is ambiguous, in my experience.  ; :Compaq RAID Software for OpenVMS (currently V2.5, I think)i  D   This is the current product name for the package that was formerly   known as StorageWorks RAID.t  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faqdN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comr   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:45:02 GMTh6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)( Subject: Re: raid 5 OpenVMS VAX hobbyist0 Message-ID: <2Fuub.151153$W7.969@news.chello.at>  @ IIRC, this is the first time I don't accept Hoff's statement ;-)  X In article <a5sub.9224$My5.4822@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:G >  If by RAID 5 you really mean striping (which is the usual definitiontD >  of RAID 5) this requires either controller-based hardware or someE >  host-based striping package such as the StorageWorks RAID product,nD >  or other similar approach.  There is no system-integrated productF >  (SIP) striping package available within OpenVMS; volume striping is >  available a layered product.s  > RAID 5 is not usually defined as striping. RAID 0 is striping.> RAID 5 (and sometimes RAID 3, too) is usually defined as raid.F And this generic term used for all levels and for one particular level leads to the usual confusion...y  ; 	Compaq RAID Software for OpenVMS (currently V2.5, I think)m0 	http://www.digital.com/info/SP4649/SP4649PF.PDF  L will allow you to stripe (RAID 0) and raid (RAID 5) but not mirror (RAID 1).3 This is the duty of the (system-integrated product)t  3 	hp Volume Shadowing for OpenVMS (currently V7.3-2)r0 	http://www.digital.com/info/SP2729/SP2729PF.PDF  F Unlike the VOLSHAD license, the license for RAID is not in the OpenVMS" Hobbyist License Package so far...   -- I Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERa% Network and OpenVMS system specialists E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:24:18 GMTc9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>aB Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday2 Message-ID: <6Bsub.9231$RB5.2032@news.cpqcorp.net>  H "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message > > Frankly, I see8 them finishing off what is in the pipeline, the promisedL > > dual-core Sparc for example.  In the mean time figuring designing how to/ > > design a enterprise class system with IA64.o >g: > And, as I said, I don't see why on Earth they'd do that. >c$ > Did you mean to say 'AMD64' above?  I Egads.  Yup.  I meant AMD64.  I can see Sun making a deal with Fujitsu totK provide some medium term improvements, but not looking at trying to design,aK build or deploy a next generation Sparc based platform on their own.  Whilev9 they work on how to build an enterprise class AMD system.t  K Frankly I think it's their only option.  If they succeed, they will be in a D much better position going forward than with Sparc.  We shall see ifD together AMD and Sun can give each other enough leverage to survive.   >oJ > I have no idea which form(s) of SPARC may have been near and dear to hisL > heart.  But, as I said, the Niagara product looks promising (and very muchG > like Intel's reported Tanglewood direction), and the partnership withnJ > Fujitsu (which has significant SPARC64 enhancements planned for the nearD > future IIRC) should take care of short-term SPARC performance - so	 declaringtI > SPARC dead at Sun may be premature even if they do need to expand theirnL > range to include another architecture as well in order to cover the marketH > adequately (since low-end SPARCs may be price-competitive with x86 but: > certainly aren't price/performance-competitive with it). >n  & Well, they've yet to show us the beef.   > K > Nonsense.  The cost certainly wasn't significant for DECpaq compared withcH > the profits it brought in, and while my impression is that Sun's SPARCL > processor development effort is considerably more bloated than Alpha's wasI > if they pare it down to concentrate on Niagara while letting Fujitsu doI thekG > heavy lifting for SPARC64 the return on that investment could well bes > excellent. >   L Bill, I wish I could share with you real information instead of imagined andE inferred information.  Trust me, they will abandon Sparc for the sameTG reasons that Compaq abandoned Alpha.  It's inevitable.  If they can get3I Fujitsu to take over funding Sparc development, maybe it will extend it'sh life for a short time.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:34:33 GMTf# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>sB Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected MondayH Message-ID: <ZCtub.34823$j1d.24034@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   Bill Todd wrote:= > "mist dragon" <mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in message 9 > news:7500353b.0311172157.62735d9d@posting.google.com...m >e > ...y >a
 >> ...snip...n >>H >> Otoh, Dec was never mainstream - when they made PC (rainbow, was it -H >> names slip from my mind) on past, they were not mainstream-compatible >> and it was never a success. >eH > And having learned their lesson they then turned around and *did* sellG > compatible PCs (whether they actually manufactured any of them or gottB > all of them from Olivetti I don't recall).  In this and in other* > areas you clearly need a history lesson.  J Olivetti was the major supplier, at least initially. DEC had a facility inH Kanata that also made/assembled PC's. IIRC some were also made in Mexico0 when Mexico was the cheap place to build things.     >> ..snip... >yF > The problems that DEC had in the late '80s stemmed from difficulties? > in keeping VAX cost/performance-competitive with the emerging?E > competition first from the killer micros and then from RISC, though-F > they were compounded by unfocused product proliferation and internalA > squabbles (VMS vs. Unix being a significant one that eventuallysG > resulted in cancellation of the DECwest PRISM efforts and the loss ofbG > people like Dave Cutler and Roger Heinen to Microsoft and elsewhere).mB > DEC Unix then shot itself in the foot by first migrating to MIPSE > rather than the nascent Alpha and then reversing that decision (thelC > move to an OSF/1 base also kept the user base off balance, thougha- > eventually resulted in a superior product).c  F The biggest problem with DEC during the late-80's was that they didn'tI understand that their customer base actually wanted to stay with VMS. The-K most compelling reason for most organizations that I spoke with at the time<F was cost, not performance. DEC could have severely slowed Sun's growthF during that timeframe by lowering prices by 10-20%. Porting costs wereI significant to organizations that did move....it also took many companiesoI much longer to work out the idiosyncrasies between the VMS-style of doingbL things in code vs. the unix style, resulting in less stable environments (myJ experience and observations). At that point in time there wasn't the fullyL developed set of VMS-> unix migration tools that eventually existed. DEC wasH the 800 lb. gorilla in the midrange market and did nothing to keep theirI customers happy until the next generation of machines (Alpha) came along.j     >vC > After the idiot BoD replaced Ken Olsen with Bob Palmer, the focusrE > turned toward selling off pieces of the company while pushing NT asfE > the future in preference to VMS - a tradition of incompetence whichsD > later Curly and Carly adopted with similar consequences (though HP6 > hasn't yet reached the point of needing to be sold).   No disagreement here.y   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:50:23 -0500l* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday) Message-ID: <3FBA860D.A759DF27@istop.com>p   Bill Todd wrote:H > And having learned their lesson they then turned around and *did* sellN > compatible PCs (whether they actually manufactured any of them or got all ofM > them from Olivetti I don't recall).  In this and in other areas you clearlyo > need a history lesson.  L Digital PCs were manufactured in Canada. (Kanata if I remember well). PalmerL started to can the PC business just as it was starting to take roots (didn'tK give it enough time). The kanata plant was one of the most efficient winteleK manufacturer in north america. Digital had even done mainstream advertising - for its wintel products (at least in canada).s  0 And the Digital laptops were well respected too.  M Then came compaq which quickly put an end to all of this. (Interestingly, theiK Kanata plant was more efficient than Compaq's own wintel facilities, but itM, was closed real fast after the acquisition).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:15:13 -0500l* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday2 Message-ID: <jM-dnWIrGJFyBCeiRVn-ig@metrocast.net>  D "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:6Bsub.9231$RB5.2032@news.cpqcorp.net... >o7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagee   ...   @   The cost certainly wasn't significant for DECpaq compared withJ > > the profits it brought in, and while my impression is that Sun's SPARCJ > > processor development effort is considerably more bloated than Alpha's wastK > > if they pare it down to concentrate on Niagara while letting Fujitsu dol > thebI > > heavy lifting for SPARC64 the return on that investment could well be  > > excellent. > >y >sJ > Bill, I wish I could share with you real information instead of imagined ande > inferred information.2  K While I'd welcome any such information that was credibly solid, it's reallysE not necessary in the current context:  the public record is more thang sufficient.e  0   Trust me, they will abandon Sparc for the same& > reasons that Compaq abandoned Alpha.  K No, they won't - if for no other reason than that they can't possibly matchoH the conditions that obtained (a leading-edge processor being scrapped in favor of vaporware) then.n  K Compaq didn't abandon Alpha to move to a superior platform, because when itoI abandoned Alpha the only extant Itanic platform was the laughable Merced.rF Even a year afterward McKinley only briefly matched Alpha's commercialL performance before EV7 came along - later than it could have - and blew awayH the competition (with the partial exception of the large POWERx systems)K with an on-chip system infrastructure that won't be equaled until (at leasttL rumor has it) the same team creates the same kind of on-chip glue for ItanicI in 2006-7.  And EV8 was on track to maintain Alpha's preeminence into the L second half of this decade:  Intel's presentations may have painted a rosierJ picture for Itanic2, but the intervening two years have made it clear thatF Itanic2 is no super-chip but just what Itanic1 ought to have been, andL without the transplanted Alpha team there's no indication that it could have; maintained even its current performance position over time.e  F By contrast, even SPARC64 (let alone Sun's SPARC) is not a performanceK leader (though it is competitive), and AFAIK that situation isn't likely torG improve all that much in the near future.  So if Sun abandons SPARC for G performance reasons, it won't be at all the same thing that Compaq did.D  L Compaq didn't abandon Alpha to save money, because the resulting drop in VMSL system profits alone far more than equaled the cost of Alpha development (asJ stated by both Rich Marcello and Mike Winkler in separate interviews).  By7 contrast, Sun has shown that it's not nearly as stupid.t  J Compaq abandoned Alpha because it was more comfortable being a box-shifterJ than a technology-developer.  By contrast, Sun sees technology developmentG as a competitive advantage (and they're in good company:  so does IBM).t  #   It's inevitable.  If they can getiK > Fujitsu to take over funding Sparc development, maybe it will extend it'ss > life for a short time.  H All they have to do is the same thing Compaq should have done:  continueJ development of their existing platform while introducing another, and thenF let their customers decide where future development emphasis should beL placed.  Solaris on SPARC already has a super-critical mass of customers andJ applications, and if they decide that they'd like to stay right where theyG are they can make it worth Sun's while to cater to them (with Fujitsu'ssJ SPARC64 making it easy to do so) - whereas if they don't, then there'll be7 little down-side to letting SPARC fade away gracefully.a   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:33:53 -0500>* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday2 Message-ID: <l_ednfRUupHCMSeiRVn-hg@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:z3apknEht+h+@eisner.encompasserve.org...0@ > In article <OYqdneghAMvtqCeiRVn-hA@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >aI > > With both Sun and IBM legitimizing AMD64, Itanic looks an awfully lotu lessD > > invincible than many would have one believe, and IBM's and Sun's
 *existing*J > > proprietary platforms continue to look like mature viable alternativesJ > > rather than 'legacy' hardware.  Why would Sun instead choose to become justG > > another me-too Itanic vendor struggling to overcome HP's sweetheart  > > relationship with Intel? > >f > / > But Intel has some recent surprises in store.n  I Still forced to tout future prospects instead of present capabilities, eho Rob?   ...   @ > The gauntlet is cast, when will IBM reveal their high-k?  AMD? > How far behind will they be?  K Or how far ahead:  partnerships bring more strengths to the table than lonei efforts.  L In terms of *current* capabilities, had you noticed that Opteron is about to+ pull ahead of Itanic in SPECweb99_SSL?  SeeaL http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_8796_8800~7 8194,00.html andL http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_8796_8800~7J 4228,00.html (watch for URL wrap); the 2-processor scores are particularly impressive.i  K Opteron had already equaled Itanic in SPECint with the 2 GHz parts, leavingdL aside the even more impressive FX-51 scores.  No 2.2 GHz Opteron scores haveL yet been made public, save for 2-processor SPECint_rate where they appear toK enjoy a slight lead over even the Itanic2 scores obtained using the vauntedg HP-UX compiler.e   >r? > Intel's left-hand knows what its right-hand is doing so thesep6 > very large on-chip caches will be much easier to do.  9 And IBM and AMD enjoy exactly the same kind of advantage.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:49:55 -0500-* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday2 Message-ID: <1YydnUG_o6mrLSeiRVn-vw@metrocast.net>  3 "Rick Jones" <foo@bar.baz.invalid> wrote in messagef, news:6Nxub.9292$r26.2515@news.cpqcorp.net...+ > Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:.H > > So if Sun abandons SPARC for performance reasons, it won't be at all# > > the same thing that Compaq did.> > > ...>B > > Compaq abandoned Alpha because it was more comfortable being aC > > box-shifter than a technology-developer.  By contrast, Sun sees E > > technology development as a competitive advantage (and they're ine > > good company: so does IBM).o >sH > Though if they do indeed abandon SPARC, would that not make them a box > shifter too?  I *If* that were to happen, it would certainly be a move in that direction. F But, unlike Compaq, it would not be a move made because they wanted toJ (despite having a superior existing proprietary platform) but because theyG had to (because SPARC just couldn't cut the mustard) - which would makeoA Solaris' future safer to continue to bet on than any of cHumPaq'soI proprietary OSs, because Sun would still value the proprietary technologyo that it could keep competitive.i   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:18:26 GMTh& From: Rick Jones <foo@bar.baz.invalid>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday2 Message-ID: <6Nxub.9292$r26.2515@news.cpqcorp.net>  ) Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:>F > So if Sun abandons SPARC for performance reasons, it won't be at all! > the same thing that Compaq did.h > ...t@ > Compaq abandoned Alpha because it was more comfortable being aA > box-shifter than a technology-developer.  By contrast, Sun seesoC > technology development as a competitive advantage (and they're in1 > good company: so does IBM).o  F Though if they do indeed abandon SPARC, would that not make them a box shifter too?  
 rick jones --  ? Process shall set you free from the need for rational thought.  F these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)A feel free to post, OR email to raj in cup.hp.com  but NOT BOTH...f   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:24:12 GMTe& From: Rick Jones <foo@bar.baz.invalid>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday2 Message-ID: <MKyub.9296$%86.6743@news.cpqcorp.net>  ) Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: @ > *If* that were to happen, it would certainly be a move in thatE > direction.  But, unlike Compaq, it would not be a move made becausen@ > they wanted to (despite having a superior existing proprietaryD > platform) but because they had to (because SPARC just couldn't cutF > the mustard) - which would make Solaris' future safer to continue toA > bet on than any of cHumPaq's proprietary OSs, because Sun wouldt; > still value the proprietary technology that it could keeps > competitive.  F Do you think that Sun's to-that-point-loyal SPARC customers would then@ react favorably to the demise of SPARC and their being forced to migrate?  
 rick jones -- IH Wisdom Teeth are impacted, people are affected by the effects of events.F these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)A feel free to post, OR email to raj in cup.hp.com  but NOT BOTH...r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:02:28 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday) Message-ID: <3FBAC113.17B19D06@istop.com>t   Bill Todd wrote:H > But, unlike Compaq, it would not be a move made because they wanted toL > (despite having a superior existing proprietary platform) but because they8 > had to (because SPARC just couldn't cut the mustard) -    K Not quite. If Sun moves to AMD, it won't be to help a struggling AMD at itspJ own expense, it would be because AMD's products would allow Sun to be evenN more competitive, especially in light of HP being "stuck" on that bloated IA64( monster. It will be a business decision.  F Compaq killed its own goose to help a struggling Intel (yes, Intel wasN struggling with its IA64 that just wasn't catching on, and yes, Intel was veryN much wanting the Alpha engineers and intellectual property). Killing Alpha wasL purely a political decision in the hopes that it would help the relationship; with Intel to help Compaq make non-profitable wintel boxes.g  K In many aspects, Compaq should be applauded for having been such a selflessbN corporation, sacrificing its own life to help others, and sacrifvicing its ownJ profitable products in order to make products that made others profits but Compaq lose money.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 22:26:47 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young).B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday3 Message-ID: <ii3JhXdjhYsG@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  _ In article <l_ednfRUupHCMSeiRVn-hg@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:a > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:z3apknEht+h+@eisner.encompasserve.org...6A >> In article <OYqdneghAMvtqCeiRVn-hA@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"c" > <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >> >J >> > With both Sun and IBM legitimizing AMD64, Itanic looks an awfully lot > lessE >> > invincible than many would have one believe, and IBM's and Sun's  > *existing*K >> > proprietary platforms continue to look like mature viable alternatives K >> > rather than 'legacy' hardware.  Why would Sun instead choose to become, > justH >> > another me-too Itanic vendor struggling to overcome HP's sweetheart >> > relationship with Intel?  >> > >>0 >> But Intel has some recent surprises in store. > K > Still forced to tout future prospects instead of present capabilities, ehP > Rob? >   > 	Actually, no.  As we both know , Itanium is doing pretty goodC 	from a sales standpoint - certainly from a performance standpoint.c  < 	Speaking of futures, it is interesting how you consistently? 	downplay IA64 and you have a bigger problem with your futures.o  Y http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=waKdnQ_9Y69V9bqjXTWcog%40metrocast.net&output=gplainP  * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.vms1  Subject: Montecito slips to 2005% Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:21:45 -0500l  ) http://news.com.com/2100-1001-980898.htmlB  I This article is as good an example of spin as I've ever seen.  Instead ofwL questioning what caused Intel to slip Montecito (the Itanic shrink to 90 nm,L with 12 MB of on-chip cache) from 2004 to 2005, it paints the new roadmap as2 a significant march stolen on Intel's competition.  N But the facts , if one examines them, tell a very different  story.  DeferringO the shrink for a year has a major negative impact on yield,  power consumption, O cache size, and performance for that year.  Adding a new Madison variant (stillrM in 130 nm) with an additional 3 MB of on-chip cache to fill the gap increases'N the negative impact on yield and power consumption (especially if it's clockedO faster, as claimed), and the 50% added cache may or may not be all that helpfulKN (they claim it will clock faster than Madison I, but that only drives up power consumption even more).  t  J Bottom line:  Itanic performance won't be improving at the rate previouslyI anticipated (and, incidentally, this also implies that there won't be any . EV7-style on-chip glue until at least 2006).      I 	Let's examine those "facts"!  Your "facts" have us believe Montecito is oF 	little more than a shrink to 90 nm , 12 MByte cache , with less than E 	stellar performance improvement.  And yet, 10 months later we learn:g  < http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/11/14/HNmontecito_1.html  I Itanium's first multicore processor, code named Montecito, will also havewO multithreading when it is released in 2005, said Ajay Malhotra, the director ofnK enterprise marketing and planning for Intel's Enterprise Systems group. ThetK chip will also have 24M bytes of on-chip cache, much more than the 9M bytes,1 available in Intel's current Madison processors. i  L "Not only is Montecito dual-core, it has massive amounts of cache and, quite( significantly, multithreading," he said.  M Multithreading allows a single processor to operate like multiple processors, K so with multithreading, a dual-core Montecito would appear to the operatingu) system to have at least four processors. e   ---$  ? 	So you have a chuckle on my "futures", and yet when we go backw? 	and examine your "factual" futures [Ed: a fact can be verifiedwB 	and readily acknowledged as true] it is the real chuckler.  Yeah,C 	that Itanic moniker is getting thinner and thinner, isn't it?  Buta= 	if you phrase it with conviction and sprinkle it with enoughiD 	technical jargon, the masses nod in agreement.  Well , mostly   B^)  ' 	Here Bill, here are some more futures:s  < http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/11/14/HNmontecito_1.html    O Intel's follow up to Montecito, the 8-core Tanglewood processor being developedeO by a team of former Alpha processor developers, will also be multithreaded, but L it may take a different approach to the problem, Malhotra said. It will haveG seven times the performance of current Madison Itanium 2 processors, an A improvement that will primarily be driven by how Intel implementsyO multithreading and how the company manages to link Tanglewood's cores together,s	 he said.    N "(Chip) frequency will play a role, but it will be eclipsed by improvements in' multicore and multithreading," he said.    ---s  = 	Seven times the performance of Madison.  7 times the integerd@ 	performance, or 7 times floating point?  Or maybe 7 times tpmC?  = 	I suppose Opteron is slated to double in performance in that " 	timeframe, or maybe triple?  LOL.   				Robi   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 22:36:17 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)sB Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday3 Message-ID: <UHW7POqUdFmT@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  _ In article <1YydnUG_o6mrLSeiRVn-vw@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > 5 > "Rick Jones" <foo@bar.baz.invalid> wrote in messagea. > news:6Nxub.9292$r26.2515@news.cpqcorp.net..., >> Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:I >> > So if Sun abandons SPARC for performance reasons, it won't be at all.$ >> > the same thing that Compaq did. >> > ...C >> > Compaq abandoned Alpha because it was more comfortable being arD >> > box-shifter than a technology-developer.  By contrast, Sun seesF >> > technology development as a competitive advantage (and they're in  >> > good company: so does IBM). >>I >> Though if they do indeed abandon SPARC, would that not make them a boxe >> shifter too?e > K > *If* that were to happen, it would certainly be a move in that direction.eH > But, unlike Compaq, it would not be a move made because they wanted toL > (despite having a superior existing proprietary platform) but because theyI > had to (because SPARC just couldn't cut the mustard) - which would makegC > Solaris' future safer to continue to bet on than any of cHumPaq'sbK > proprietary OSs, because Sun would still value the proprietary technologyr! > that it could keep competitive.n >   @ 	Like to have it both ways, eh?  would and could - hmmmm.  Let'sA 	suppose in both cases it was a business decision based on facts.   F 	Fact is, SPARC sucks wind. Adopting Opteron gives them a competitive D 	2-way and 4-way server.  You would choose SPARC over Opteron for a E 	4-way server because you like SPARC or the application only runs on  E 	SPARC Slowaris.  Since Oracle charges per-cpu, you would be throwingsE 	money out the window if you needed a 4-way SPARC if a 2-way Opteron cF 	running Solararis delivers the performance you need.  There are other2 	examples where a slow CPU *really* is a handicap.  D 	Maybe Sun could get IBM to OEM the Opteron boxes so Sun could adoptH 	a nice model and imitate Dell.  Maybe they could grow revenues!  Maybe, 	maybe not.l   				Robg   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:42:05 -0500d* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday2 Message-ID: <nq2dnfxqAuIxnyai4p2dnA@metrocast.net>  3 "Rick Jones" <foo@bar.baz.invalid> wrote in message , news:MKyub.9296$%86.6743@news.cpqcorp.net...+ > Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:rB > > *If* that were to happen, it would certainly be a move in thatG > > direction.  But, unlike Compaq, it would not be a move made becausehB > > they wanted to (despite having a superior existing proprietaryF > > platform) but because they had to (because SPARC just couldn't cutH > > the mustard) - which would make Solaris' future safer to continue toC > > bet on than any of cHumPaq's proprietary OSs, because Sun wouldl= > > still value the proprietary technology that it could keepI > > competitive. >IH > Do you think that Sun's to-that-point-loyal SPARC customers would thenB > react favorably to the demise of SPARC and their being forced to
 > migrate?  I Of course not.  OTOH, Sun would have a legitimate excuse for having taken L this action (their actual inability to compete with SPARC - this still beingH the hypothetical situation which you posited), in marked contrast to theI situation with Compaq and Alpha, where Alpha both was a superior platformtK and showed every indication of being able to stay that way.  So while Sun'sDK SPARC customers would undoubtedly not be happy that this had occurred, theylI would have far less reason to be absolutely rip-shit about it (not havingt0 been actively lied to would probably also help).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:44:10 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday2 Message-ID: <i9WdnUFvjt61niaiRVn-gQ@metrocast.net>  7 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in messagep# news:3FBAC113.17B19D06@istop.com...2 > Bill Todd wrote:J > > But, unlike Compaq, it would not be a move made because they wanted toI > > (despite having a superior existing proprietary platform) but becauseo they: > > had to (because SPARC just couldn't cut the mustard) - >c >o > Not quite.  G Yes, quite.  If you didn't understand what I said above, try reading itw again.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:30:31 -0800a3 From: Alan Frisbie <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> ! Subject: Re: The old DEC complex. . Message-ID: <3FBA8167.7000305@Flying-Disk.com>   Steve Lionel wrote:nL > On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 03:24:37 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> > wrote:  ! >> Have they changed the barcode?m  ) > It changed once, at least 10 years ago.d > Initially, it read:  >a > digitalsoftwae > reengineeringa >d > Now it reads (approximately) >  > customerswin > whenwedeliver-  @ Very approximately.   When I was there last year, I photographed@ it for later analysis.   I discovered that there are two one-bit4 errors.   What it actually says (in 7-bit ASCII) is:  
 Customers Wini
 .henWeFeliver  ^     ^   = The "." above actually stands for <ETB> (0010111), instead ofR= "W" (1010111).   The first bar should be black (1) instead oft
 white (0).  3 The "F" (1000110) should actually be "D" (1000100).:  < Notice also the the top row has a space character in it, but& there are no spaces in the bottom row.  > It is possible that it has been fixed since November 2002, but< that can easily be checked.   If the first bar in the bottom? row is white, it has not been fixed.   I wonder how long it hasN been this way?   Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:38:55 GMTr& From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>! Subject: Re: The old DEC complex. 2 Message-ID: <zrvub.9265$EQ5.7667@news.cpqcorp.net>   Alan Frisbie wrote:i  @ > It is possible that it has been fixed since November 2002, but> > that can easily be checked.   If the first bar in the bottomA > row is white, it has not been fixed.   I wonder how long it hast > been this way? >  > Alan  ) - The space in the upper row is expected.;  F - The 'F' and non-printing characters showed up a few years back when H the facilities folks noticed some bars rusting at the attachment bolts. I   They went in the back, found some spare bars and bolted them in.  They i@ dind't realize (or care?) that some bars are 0 and others are 1.     -- g John Reagant' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leaders Hewlett-Packard Companyb   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:09:10 -0800 3 From: Alan Frisbie <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com>f! Subject: Re: The old DEC complex.". Message-ID: <3FBAB4A6.4040103@Flying-Disk.com>   John Reagan wrote: > Alan Frisbie wrote:  > A >> It is possible that it has been fixed since November 2002, buti? >> that can easily be checked.   If the first bar in the bottombB >> row is white, it has not been fixed.   I wonder how long it has >> been this way?i  + > - The space in the upper row is expected.s  < I agree.   I was just noting that the top row had a space in# order to make the two rows line up.u  H > - The 'F' and non-printing characters showed up a few years back when J > the facilities folks noticed some bars rusting at the attachment bolts. J >  They went in the back, found some spare bars and bolted them in.  They B > didn't realize (or care?) that some bars are 0 and others are 1.  E Has anyone considered simply swapping the two bars?   Or, better yet,,* a weekend hack to put up a better message?   Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:30:25 GMT-2 From: "Ken Farmer" <KFarmer@NOSPAM.SpyderByte.com> Subject: Re: The VMS Quilt< Message-ID: <RGsub.7714$tP4.861527@twister.southeast.rr.com>  , <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A29141.DFAC37B1@SendSpamHere.ORG...K > In article <Rqnub.7219$tP4.817555@twister.southeast.rr.com>, "Ken Farmer"-' <KFarmer@NOSPAM.SpyderByte.com> writes:o > >3< > >http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=03/11/17/4107711 >EE > Hey Ken, 'twas great meeting you.  Hope the "Jack" wore off by now.5  L Hiccup!  Yea, I'm feeling better.  Hope I didn't smoke you out too much.  :)  J > I have a few pix I pulled off of digital cameras of those that had them.; > I put a few on my site.  http://www.tmesis.com/pix/quilt/t  ( I listed url on the quilt page.  Thanks.   Ken5     -- Kenneth Farmer  <><l OpenVMS.org  |  dcl.OpenVMS.orgs  EnterpriseUnix.org  |  Tru64.org   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:49:34 +0000 (UTC)-, From: lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) Subject: Re: The VMS Quilt- Message-ID: <bpe0ku$vg$1@newslocal.mitre.org>t   Michael Unger <unger@despammed.com> writes in article <bpdn6q$1mv1rg$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de> dated Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:05:56 +0100:g& >On 2003-11-18 15:50, "VAXman-" wrote:< >> I put a few on my site.  http://www.tmesis.com/pix/quilt/ > E >Does anybody know of a URL for the "OpenVMS shark" (top right on thea4 >quilt)? A high-resolution JPG version is preferred.  I GIF is better than JPG for this kind of graphics.  And that's all I have. B http://members.cox.net/thundre/vms-shark-large.gif 155x154 pixels.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:27:03 -0600e5 From: "Martin P.J. Zinser" <zinser@zinser.no-ip.info>e Subject: Re: The VMS Quilt: Message-ID: <bperen$1meqqa$2@ID-209632.news.uni-berlin.de>   Michael Unger wrote:' > On 2003-11-18 15:50, "VAXman-" wrote:  >  >  >>[...]1 >>J >>I have a few pix I pulled off of digital cameras of those that had them.; >>I put a few on my site.  http://www.tmesis.com/pix/quilt/  >  > F > Does anybody know of a URL for the "OpenVMS shark" (top right on the5 > quilt)? A high-resolution JPG version is preferred.n > 	 > Michael  > $ This and other stuff may be found at  / http://zinser.no-ip.info/vms/fun/pictures.htmlx    Greetings, Martin    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:36:21 GMT'& From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary2 Message-ID: <pMsub.9236$Jy5.1150@news.cpqcorp.net>   VAXman- wrote:  G > The week was fun and full of info.  I would have appreciated that thee= > "Advanced Itanium sessions" be more advanced to my levels. o  F Can you give an example of something that you'd like to see?  Perhaps 3 Sue can arrange for something at the next bootcamp.   E I certainly tried to be as detailed as possible with my presentation   given my 30 minute time slot.o   -- A John Reagann' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leaderv Hewlett-Packard Companya   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:40:01 GMT,9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>u& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary2 Message-ID: <RPsub.9238$4y5.3408@news.cpqcorp.net>  G Agree with the lack of Guinness (but could have given you directions to)J somplace that you could have found it), but of course I would have liked a cigar bar too ;-)p  , "Roy Omond" <Roy@Omond.net> wrote in message# news:3FBA42B7.4E5F67DC@Omond.net...r# > VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:t >  > > [...snip...] > >nI > > The week was fun and full of info.  I would have appreciated that therH > > "Advanced Itanium sessions" be more advanced to my levels.  The only6 > > gripe I have was no Guinness on draught in the bar >t > That I can sympathise with ! >r* > > and *way* too much cigarette smoke. :( > : > I thought that was the role of the Leper Colony (TM), or > have I misunderstood ? >s. > Anyway, sounds as if you folks did have fun. >a > Roy Omondi > Blue Bubble Ltd. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:05:32 -0800x# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>s& Subject: RE: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary9 Message-ID: <IDELIOKNLCICKNEPNOFAAEGPCKAA.tom@kednos.com>a  > Martha's Express downtown New Hampshire has outstanding stout.   -----Original Message-----> From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com]( Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:40 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com-& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary    G Agree with the lack of Guinness (but could have given you directions tooJ somplace that you could have found it), but of course I would have liked a cigar bar too ;-)r  , "Roy Omond" <Roy@Omond.net> wrote in message# news:3FBA42B7.4E5F67DC@Omond.net... # > VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:6 >5 > > [...snip...] > >.I > > The week was fun and full of info.  I would have appreciated that the H > > "Advanced Itanium sessions" be more advanced to my levels.  The only6 > > gripe I have was no Guinness on draught in the bar >  > That I can sympathise with ! >t* > > and *way* too much cigarette smoke. :( >e: > I thought that was the role of the Leper Colony (TM), or > have I misunderstood ? >e. > Anyway, sounds as if you folks did have fun. >h > Roy Omondo > Blue Bubble Ltd. >y   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:29:03 GMTa" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary0 Message-ID: <00A29160.69B602ED@SendSpamHere.ORG>  [ In article <pMsub.9236$Jy5.1150@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:f >VAXman- wrote:e >gH >> The week was fun and full of info.  I would have appreciated that the> >> "Advanced Itanium sessions" be more advanced to my levels.  >pG >Can you give an example of something that you'd like to see?  Perhaps v4 >Sue can arrange for something at the next bootcamp. >tF >I certainly tried to be as detailed as possible with my presentation  >given my 30 minute time slot. >n >--  >John Reagan( >Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader >Hewlett-Packard Company >t    H I am and always have been a real bits and byte kind of guy.  I'd like toI have seen something on the instructions set as it pertains to the callingvH standard (like a simple ia64asm "Hello World" program example would go aH long way).  Details on the instructions used to implement change of modeH services and the equivalent of REI.  Details on atomic ops and how to doG them (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know call the SWIS routines...).  I fiddle incH the kernel and really need a feel for how the underlying low-level stuffI ticks and clicks.  I think you understand where I'm coming from... if nottL I can expound further.  I *read* machine listings and right now they look   * mighty foreign -- except for the NOOPs. ;)   -- iL VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM            a5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:35:55 GMTs" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary0 Message-ID: <00A29161.5EC8B681@SendSpamHere.ORG>  n In article <RPsub.9238$4y5.3408@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> writes:H >Agree with the lack of Guinness (but could have given you directions toK >somplace that you could have found it), but of course I would have liked a  >cigar bar too ;-)  H I actually drank the Tara's entire store of Guinness draught widget cansJ by Wednesday evening.  The Tara's bar didn't even have a proper pint glass to pour the can into.  0  J I went out one evening to Boston Billiards.  They had Guinness tap handles6 but started serving my pours in plastic solo cups.  :(  J If I decide to make the trek up in May, the Guinness cooler may need to beK transported with me in the back of the van.  I'll have to measure the powerhK consumption so I can figure out how much battery and converter I'll need ton keep it proper for the week.   -- aL VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM            a5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" i   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:18:27 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary0 Message-ID: <00A2915E.EEA9C6B3@SendSpamHere.ORG>  K In article <3FBA42B7.4E5F67DC@Omond.net>, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> writes:p" >VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >  >> [...snip...]k >>H >> The week was fun and full of info.  I would have appreciated that theG >> "Advanced Itanium sessions" be more advanced to my levels.  The onlya5 >> gripe I have was no Guinness on draught in the bar- >  >That I can sympathise with !  >0) >> and *way* too much cigarette smoke. :(e > 9 >I thought that was the role of the Leper Colony (TM), or  >have I misunderstood ?n  H Holding gatherings of the Loyal Order of the OpenVMS Leper Colony in theJ out-of-doors in NH in November would have those of us in attendance becomeJ like actual lepers when our skin sloughs off and our digits drop away from
 frostbite.     -- 'L VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM            i5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:47:56 GMTn& From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary2 Message-ID: <0Avub.9269$vT5.8272@news.cpqcorp.net>   VAXman- wrote:  J > I am and always have been a real bits and byte kind of guy.  I'd like toK > have seen something on the instructions set as it pertains to the callingrJ > standard (like a simple ia64asm "Hello World" program example would go aJ > long way).  Details on the instructions used to implement change of modeJ > services and the equivalent of REI.  Details on atomic ops and how to doI > them (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know call the SWIS routines...).  I fiddle in J > the kernel and really need a feel for how the underlying low-level stuffK > ticks and clicks.  I think you understand where I'm coming from... if not N > I can expound further.  I *read* machine listings and right now they look   , > mighty foreign -- except for the NOOPs. ;) >   E Thanks for the feedback.  You can download the Itanium Archictecture  G manuals from Intel.  You can write some C, BLISS, Macro routines today hH with the cross-compilers and then stare at the machine code listings to  see what we do.t  C Perhaps an "introduction" to the Itanium architecture and assembly  C language programming might be interesting talk?  60 minutes?  More?tB I can imagine a quick 15 minutes of H/W overview (volume 1 of the ? Itanium Architecture manual) and then 45 minutes reviewing the  @ instruction set with embedded examples (volume 3 of the Itanium  Architecture manual).h  , How many folks would like this kind of talk?     --   John Reagant' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leaderi Hewlett-Packard Companye   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 15:58:34 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)m& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary3 Message-ID: <4EbuAhS1zBgp@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  [ In article <0Avub.9269$vT5.8272@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:e  E > Perhaps an "introduction" to the Itanium architecture and assembly oE > language programming might be interesting talk?  60 minutes?  More?rD > I can imagine a quick 15 minutes of H/W overview (volume 1 of the A > Itanium Architecture manual) and then 45 minutes reviewing the tB > instruction set with embedded examples (volume 3 of the Itanium  > Architecture manual).e   I would be interested in that.  . > How many folks would like this kind of talk?   At least 2 :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:22:42 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary0 Message-ID: <00A29191.D0FF6EF6@SendSpamHere.ORG>  [ In article <0Avub.9269$vT5.8272@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:t >VAXman- wrote:  >tK >> I am and always have been a real bits and byte kind of guy.  I'd like torL >> have seen something on the instructions set as it pertains to the callingK >> standard (like a simple ia64asm "Hello World" program example would go aeK >> long way).  Details on the instructions used to implement change of modehK >> services and the equivalent of REI.  Details on atomic ops and how to dosJ >> them (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know call the SWIS routines...).  I fiddle inK >> the kernel and really need a feel for how the underlying low-level stuffeL >> ticks and clicks.  I think you understand where I'm coming from... if notO >> I can expound further.  I *read* machine listings and right now they look    - >> mighty foreign -- except for the NOOPs. ;)Y >>   >uF >Thanks for the feedback.  You can download the Itanium Archictecture H >manuals from Intel.  You can write some C, BLISS, Macro routines today I >with the cross-compilers and then stare at the machine code listings to   >see what we do.  6 I have the manual... it's great late night reading. ;)  A I have looked at the machine listings but I'd really like to hearpA more about how the bits and bytes were used to fill in the things - that were VAX and later Alpha PALcode, etc.  u    D >Perhaps an "introduction" to the Itanium architecture and assembly D >language programming might be interesting talk?  60 minutes?  More?C >I can imagine a quick 15 minutes of H/W overview (volume 1 of the t@ >Itanium Architecture manual) and then 45 minutes reviewing the A >instruction set with embedded examples (volume 3 of the Itanium - >Architecture manual). >w- >How many folks would like this kind of talk?   B That would have been one of the things I would have thought would D have been a part of the Itanium talks.  Itanium "business practices"@ really could have been dropped and such a talk put in its place.   -- sL VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM            o5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 0   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:24:26 GMTr" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary0 Message-ID: <00A29192.0F245917@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <4EbuAhS1zBgp@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: \ >In article <0Avub.9269$vT5.8272@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes: >UF >> Perhaps an "introduction" to the Itanium architecture and assembly F >> language programming might be interesting talk?  60 minutes?  More?E >> I can imagine a quick 15 minutes of H/W overview (volume 1 of the  B >> Itanium Architecture manual) and then 45 minutes reviewing the C >> instruction set with embedded examples (volume 3 of the Itanium   >> Architecture manual). >t >I would be interested in that.y >G/ >> How many folks would like this kind of talk?o >a >At least 2 :-)o  . I'll throw in a disk so we can achieve quorum! -- eL VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM            m5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:24:01 -0500m5 From: "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccuskerNosp@Mcompaq.com>e& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary/ Message-ID: <vrll2c5isj6hcb@corp.supernews.com>d  @ "Alan Frisbie" <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> wrote in message( news:3FBAC38C.5070103@Flying-Disk.com...  E >    o  Since the event is called "bootcamp", perhaps you should havea) >       a track dedicated to VMS newbies.l  J This is an interesting point.  I had one or two VMS-newbies in my hands-onL Open Source Porting seminar each of the three days it was offered.  I wonderE how many newbies there actually was?   To provide a newbie track thatrJ included hands-on might be a big draw, if we are sure to mention it in the program descriptions.e  K (The really good news is, the "newbies" were actually UNIX/Linux people and-D they were impressed with BASH on VMS.  Had plenty of suggestions and> requests for missing utilities, but, impressed none the less!)  H Any of the other attendees have a sense for how many newbies there were?   Brad   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:12:44 -0800s3 From: Alan Frisbie <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> & Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary. Message-ID: <3FBAC38C.5070103@Flying-Disk.com>   John Reagan wrote:  E > Perhaps an "introduction" to the Itanium architecture and assembly oE > language programming might be interesting talk?  60 minutes?  More?mD > I can imagine a quick 15 minutes of H/W overview (volume 1 of the A > Itanium Architecture manual) and then 45 minutes reviewing the  B > instruction set with embedded examples (volume 3 of the Itanium  > Architecture manual).H > . > How many folks would like this kind of talk?  # I would be in the front row for it.O  @ I found the bootcamp to be about as close to an "old time DECUS"= symposium as you could get, except for the lack of user-givenc	 sessions.t   Highlights for me:  ;    o  John Wisniewski's Linux/VMS interoperability session.w=       This session came the closest to the old DECUS sessions        that I loved so much.w      o  Hands-on Apache scripting C       There is no substitute for actually doing an installation and D       implementing your own sample scripts.   I'm glad I went, sinceE       otherwise I wouldn't have gotten the handouts (they were not on        the server).      o  VMS hints and kinks >       A repeat for me, but it was good to be reminded of them.      o  RMS file performanceB       Last year, the first 15 minutes solved a performance problemG       for me that was worth the entire price of admission.   This year, C       I was able to concentrate on the rest of the presentation andr       got some more great tips.T   Suggestions for next year:  >    o  Make sure *ALL* the handouts get put on the file server.@       I only got the Apache scripting notes because the guy next        to me asked for the files.  C    o  Compile a list of nearby places to eat.   Not fancy, just the:)       kind of places the engineers go to.o  B    o  An indication on the name badge of where the person is from.B       For those from outside the USA, perhaps a small flag stickerA       (assuming that they are readily available for a low price).h  C    o  More complete signs outside the session rooms.   For example,mD       "Topics A" should have listed the individual topics and times.D       Remember that (in several cases) if the door is open, the room       name is obscured.x  A    o  Since ZKO tours are impractical for such a large group, how ?       about a slide show "tour"?   That way, you could show the =       engineers in their native habitat, as well as the labs.q  C    o  Since the event is called "bootcamp", perhaps you should haveg?       a track dedicated to VMS newbies.   I envision half of itaA       being devoted to system management, and half to "VMS style".       programming.   General comments:c  B    o  Since it is only six months until the next one (May 2004), IH       probably won't attend.   But I will certainly attend the followingG       one (May 2005).   By then there should be lots of new informationi       and sessions.h  ?    o  The food and beverage service was outstanding.   I reallytB       appreciated the fresh fruit and oatmeal for breakfast.   The:       soup at lunch was also nice, given the cool weather.  A    o  The engineering lounge was a nice idea.   It's too bad thatn9       it didn't have a cooler of beer and soda pop.   :-)-G       Perhaps you could convince Brian to bring his Guinness keg?   :-)S  ?    o  The size of the event was good.   I think we strained thes!       Hotel facilities as it was.m  ?    o  Sue deserves a big thank-you for a great week!   I was sos?       exhausted that I slept all the way back to Los Angeles on>       Saturday.    Thanks,e Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:01:28 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>m& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary' Message-ID: <3FBAEB18.16176D29@fsi.net>p   Sue Skonetski wrote: >  > Dear Dave and Martin,i > G > Thank you for your kind words, it really makes a difference to me.  IcE > also feel that the week went well.  Its amazing how up you can feelHE > when so many like minded folks get together and are looking for thehD > good in something instead of always trying to find a negative loop > hole.   E We always appreciate what you do for the VMS community. You're the #1  Ambassador!t  F We're also always looking for the positive. However, if you ignore the! negative, well, put it this way:    G o The wife and I pull our own credit reports twice a year now, minimum.h  B o Had my Dad's prostate cancer been discovered / treated before itH metasticized, he might have lived to see his 89th birthday (11-Nov-2003,) he died 28 days after his 79th birthday).r  H ...or, as Tony Robbins put it in his "Personal Power" (V1) tapes: "Don'tH expect the worst, expect the best! ... but have a plan in case the worst
 shows up!"   -- e David J. Dachtera' dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:08:00 -0600n1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary' Message-ID: <3FBAECA0.2C949831@fsi.net>f   Brad McCusker wrote: > B > "Alan Frisbie" <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> wrote in message* > news:3FBAC38C.5070103@Flying-Disk.com... > G > >    o  Since the event is called "bootcamp", perhaps you should havea+ > >       a track dedicated to VMS newbies.d > L > This is an interesting point.  I had one or two VMS-newbies in my hands-onN > Open Source Porting seminar each of the three days it was offered.  I wonderG > how many newbies there actually was?   To provide a newbie track thattL > included hands-on might be a big draw, if we are sure to mention it in the > program descriptions.e > M > (The really good news is, the "newbies" were actually UNIX/Linux people and F > they were impressed with BASH on VMS.  Had plenty of suggestions and@ > requests for missing utilities, but, impressed none the less!) > J > Any of the other attendees have a sense for how many newbies there were?  A Please make sure the symposium seminar/session planners see theseo@ comments. They are convinced that newbie sessions are valueless.   -- t David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:11:42 -0600-1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> & Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary' Message-ID: <3FBAED7E.8C6FFC11@fsi.net>h   Tom Linden wrote:  > @ > Martha's Express downtown New Hampshire has outstanding stout.   %RQP-E-RQSTCHK, Request checktG -ELTRAN-E-SCOPINCONS, scope of statement element is not consistent with  scope of statement  = "downtown" indicates an area of a city / town / village / ...   D "New Hampshire" is a state, albeit small, consisting of many cities, towns, villages, etc.f   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 22:33:00 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen),& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary3 Message-ID: <4GzIsy5Xd7$0@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  U In article <00A29191.D0FF6EF6@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:o  D > That would have been one of the things I would have thought would F > have been a part of the Itanium talks.  Itanium "business practices"B > really could have been dropped and such a talk put in its place.  D The "business practices" stuff was vital for (again) asking them notF to break LMF usage by third parties.  There seems to be the same trendH as with Alpha, tuning LMF to match DEC/HP business practices, forgetting that third parties use it.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Nov 2003 22:36:09 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a& Subject: Re: VMS 2003 bootcamp summary3 Message-ID: <apYa$diB4YpM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <vrll2c5isj6hcb@corp.supernews.com>, "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccuskerNosp@Mcompaq.com> writes:  > B > "Alan Frisbie" <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> wrote in message* > news:3FBAC38C.5070103@Flying-Disk.com... > F >>    o  Since the event is called "bootcamp", perhaps you should have* >>       a track dedicated to VMS newbies. > L > This is an interesting point.  I had one or two VMS-newbies in my hands-onN > Open Source Porting seminar each of the three days it was offered.  I wonderG > how many newbies there actually was?   To provide a newbie track that9L > included hands-on might be a big draw, if we are sure to mention it in the > program descriptions.P > M > (The really good news is, the "newbies" were actually UNIX/Linux people andiF > they were impressed with BASH on VMS.  Had plenty of suggestions and@ > requests for missing utilities, but, impressed none the less!) > J > Any of the other attendees have a sense for how many newbies there were?  L HP has another class called "Boot Camp".  This one was "Advanced Boot Camp".K I prefer the name "VMS Symposium", but I suppose they got pushback from thee2 Encompass folks when they named it that last year.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:11:45 GMTy" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG) Subject: Re: VMS Defragmentation Softwarea0 Message-ID: <00A2915D.FEE74A7A@SendSpamHere.ORG>  a In article <voekrvk6jl7nmphbi0q2ne7m7pqcjg42f0@4ax.com>, jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> writes:'D >On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:32:53 GMT, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >n >g >>N >>I'm no fan of the licensing scheme.  It's caused me many problems when buildN >>product.  I almost created a permanent schism betweem myself and the authorsN >>(a well know company, not Raxco) of their keying system when I expounded my  >>personal opinions of it. >eK >When I was a system manager I detested any licensing scheme that generatedeI >a key based on any specific (list of) hardware component(s).  One of thea2 >biggest hemorrhoids was a key based on the NIC.    H Like I said, I didn't write the licensing scheme software.  I only write  the software that calls to it.     -- eL VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM            t5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:38:27 +0000 ' From: Elliott Roper <elliott@yrl.co.uk>-3 Subject: Re: [OT] Mac OS X: system folder not foundB2 Message-ID: <181120032338273360%elliott@yrl.co.uk>  C In article <3fba97cf$0$13288$626a54ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandix <no@spam.com> wrote:  I > Since I upgraded to 10.2.8, The iPod automatc update failed to install 9 > with this message: > G > "Cette installation requiert la prsence d'un dossier systme sur le t7 > lecteur de destination. L'installation a t annule.t! > 1008;1,-43 Fichier introuvable"n > H > "This installation requires a system folder on the destination drive. * > installation cancelled. File not found". > F > I gave up as I do not have an iPod, but then I went to a site which H > required the Flash agent, so I got it and tried to have it installed. 
 > Same error.O > F > Today, I installed an HP 940c printer and downloaded the driver. At   > installation time, same error. > E > I do not remember having done anything on the system (I hate OS X).  >  > Anyone has seen that before?  / Wow Didier, are you in the wrong group or what?s@ "System Folder" is the name given to the Classic run time systemG directory. It should have a file called 'system' inside, among zillionsbE of others. Check this by trying to start Classic. If it fails, we are ' on the right track to solving this one.w  ? How did you do your upgrade to 10.2.8? 'Archive and Install' oroD 'Upgrade'. If it were Archive and Install, you might find the systemA folder in the archive of your old 10.2.6 system. Or you might tryaB reinstalling OS 9 from your original disks - don't panic, it won'tE overwrite the OS X stuff. In fact it won't even let your machine boot-= into OS 9 unless you installed the OS 9 disk drivers when you C intialised the disk. However it should let you run Classic and thatME might be what the printer and the iPod software you are installing isR looking for.  E 10.2.3 *is* worth the money. If only for Preview for reading your PDF3A VMS manuals ;-) It is about 100 times faster and has an excellent  search.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:06:06 +0100e" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>/ Subject: [OT] Mac OS X: system folder not foundt4 Message-ID: <3fba97cf$0$13288$626a54ce@news.free.fr>  G Since I upgraded to 10.2.8, The iPod automatc update failed to install g with this message:  E "Cette installation requiert la prsence d'un dossier systme sur le r5 lecteur de destination. L'installation a t annule.j 1008;1,-43 Fichier introuvable"e  F "This installation requires a system folder on the destination drive. ( installation cancelled. File not found".  D I gave up as I do not have an iPod, but then I went to a site which F required the Flash agent, so I got it and tried to have it installed.  Same error.i  D Today, I installed an HP 940c printer and downloaded the driver. At  installation time, same error.  C I do not remember having done anything on the system (I hate OS X).t   Anyone has seen that before?   Thanks,e   D.  F PS: please do not suggest to upgrade to 10.3, this is not the problem.   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Nov 2003 02:29:15 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.come3 Subject: Re: [OT] Mac OS X: system folder not foundk+ Message-ID: <bpekhr0l46@enews1.newsguy.com>1  ( Elliott Roper <elliott@yrl.co.uk> wrote:G > 10.2.3 *is* worth the money. If only for Preview for reading your PDFsC > VMS manuals ;-) It is about 100 times faster and has an excellentc	 > search.2  L It also has improved X-Windows support.  Though it would appear that 'xterm'H still doesn't support the -xrm flag, and that it now silently ignores itE rather than failing.  On a postive note, it now automatically uses my8I .Xmodmap file (which is how I'm having to remap the keyboard for use withc% VMS since I can't use the -xrm flag).6  L I also like the fast user switching as my wife and I share the system.  WhatJ I didn't like was how difficult turning Appletalk on was.  At least once IL got it on, I was able to mount the Appletalk shares on my VMS server without any problem.   			Zanea   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.641 ************************